How do you know what advice to follow? (Critiquing problem)

[ChrisW42660]

I've been looking online and offline for somebody to help me critique and polish my novel. Almost everybody asks for a sample and shows me their work, giving me suggestions. The problem is, everyone gives different advice. How do I know who is giving me good advice and who isn't? If I don't know that, how can I choose who to pay to help me? Grrrrrrrrrrr. I'm going crazy with all the conflicting opinions.

[stormie267]

The problem is, everyone gives different advice.
Actually, that's a good thing, all the different advice. You take what you see what would work, and go with it. Then discard (or shelve) the other advice. Ultimately, you're writing for yourself. It's your writing style, your take on the story. The feedback you receive should open your eyes to a better storyline, correct grammar, more tension, well-rounded characters....

I hope this helps!

[rtilryarms]

4 people agreed to critique one of my short stories here:

one bled all over it and wondered why I was wasting my time writing. (This was not who you think it was)

The very next told me to submit it as-is because they liked the raw feel of it (made some technical corrections)

The third almost re-wrote the entire thing

And the fourth made some suggestions as to the writing method.

They were all right. I picked through the comments and corrected where I thought it was appropriate. The end result was one of the best pieces I ever wrote, thank you very much.

It was rejected.

LOL

[maestrowork]

Trust your inner self. Get past your initial emotions, let the piece and suggestions sit for a week. Then look at them again -- I'm sure you will find out what advice is good and what goes to the "thank you very much for your time" pile.

And not just different things from different people. Sometimes the same person would give inconsistent advice. You don't want to disregard the person, but you do need to pick out the things that make sense.

It's also a trust issue. The more you trust the person who's giving you advice, the better you'll feel about considering the advice. But rule #1: trust your inner self first.

[ChrisW42660]

I guess I'll have to trust myself...lol The people who critiqued were professionals who get paid to do it, and I was trying to find one I really liked. Instead, I got confused and I'm still confused! One told me to read a lot of books and learn. Well, I couldn't read more if I tried, and most authors break plenty of the rules!

[stormie267]

...most authors break plenty of the rules
Ah, but most of the authors who break the rules are probably the ones with best sellers under their belts. Remember (and this was discussed before, somewhere): You have to know the rules first to break them. And be very careful when you do, especially if you're an unknown. Personally, I don't break the rules. Well, sometimes I bend them a little, but not much!

Let your work sit for awhile, then go back and reread it. Out loud. You'll see--no, feel--where it needs work.

[Jamesaritchie]

and most authors break plenty of the rules!

Breaking the rules can be a very good thing, but only if you first know the rules, and then if you have a solid reason for breaking one. Breaking a rule because you don't know it, of just because you want to, is pretty certain not to work.

[Jamesaritchie]

I don't think there's ever a reason to pay anyone to help you.
But your complaint is why I'm not at all fond of group critiques.
The advice is to see how many critiquers say the same thing, and then to assume the majority is right.

Trouble is, sometimes there is no majority, and as often as not when there is a majority the majority is wrong and the lone holdout is right. It isn't uncommon to find group where only one or two people know enough about story structure and characterization and, especially, what makes a story publishable or unpublishable, to be of any help at all. The rest are just critiquing on like and dislike.

I think group critiques onlyhelp writers who are advanced enough, who have sold enough, to know which advice to accept and which to ignore. For new writers, group advice is at best confusing, and can be disasterous.

Better, I think, just to pick a friend or two with opinions you trust, and let them look at your work. Thne accept or ignore as you see fit. Listen carefully, then trust your gut.

[Writing Again]

I'm going to ignore all replies and address the original question: How do you know what advice to follow.

First as your knowledge base and your skills increase you will be better and better able to separate the advice that is good for you from the advice that is not good for you. Your very uncertainty indicates that you need to spend more time studying the craft.

Second is that you do not actually have to choose. Writing is a learning experience and the experience is gained through writing. You can rewrite the same thing as many different ways as you want to, none of them are fixed in stone. You are not committed to any of them until you submit. Once you have tried several different ways pick the one you like most and submit that.

Third is that everything you choose to do has a effect. In order to make choices that are cohesive rather than scattered you must select a goal. If you wish to write commercial fiction then you would be well advised to pay more attention to those who understand and sympathize with this goal. Once your objective is chosen and understood by you the easier it will be to select which advice to listen to.

I hope this helps.

[maestrowork]

Now poor Chris has to mull over if he/she can trust any advice in this thread....

:hat

[ChrisW42660]

LOL!

I actually want to find professional advice and went looking for it. I wanted to hire somebody who had BTDT. To my surprised, even among the published, they had varying ideas about what I should do to improve my manuscript. I'm more confused than ever. I'd love to find one mentor I could pay who would help and not charge $5000. I can't count on just myself because I'm an amateur. Since I'm not a kid, I don't have 50 years to perfect my craft either...lol. Amazing how hard it is to find a paid mentor who doesn't want a ton of $$$ up front. A critique group can only help so much. A lot of times the people who are in it think they are experts, and they're just as green as me.

I write pretty long novels, so it's not the same as having short stories or poetry critiqued either, and I hate writing short stories and poetry...lol. To enjoy writing, it has to be LONG and very multi-plotted for me :)

If anyone is a mentor, or knows of one, let me know :)

Chris
psm0904@gmail.com

[Diviner]

I am fairly new to serious writing so take my advice for an educated opinion. I have yet to see a story of mine published, but I have had poems accepted. I have also belonged to a critique group for the past five years and learned a lot from their comments.

The most interesting advice I have come across recently is James Macdonald's on the Uncle Jim thread. He says to listen to folks when they identify a problem but ignore their suggestions about how to fix it. What I think he means is that it is your story, and only you know how to make sure you are telling that story, that no matter how well informed or well intentioned others are, their advice has to be filtered through your own sensibilty.

It stands to reason that if you are a less experienced writer, your sensibility and skills will improve over time. I doubt that advice about a work already complete will make much difference. Asking yourself questions about it-- a la Maas, _Writing the Breakout Novel_-- might help.

I doubt a "book doctor" is what you need--more likely just rewrites and a couple of reliable beta readers.

My final thought is that you need to identify why you are writing. Obviously you want to sell your book, but are you looking for a genre market that has customs and guidelines or is your work more literary? That consideration makes a great difference in the kind of advice you need to take. There is a huge amount of information out there about the genres. You can educate yourself and even send for guidelines, I've heard.

We all need good luck, so I wish it to you.:D

[ChrisW42660]

You know what? I have been writing "books" since I've been four years old. I write only because I love to write, but, being a storyteller, I like readers. I don't care if I ever make money or attain fame or not. I want to try to get published before I go self-publishing, and I want the best manuscript I can put out there. Writing is like chocolate ice cream to some. I have to do it. I don't have a choice.

A writing group is hard for me because some of my manuscriptes are 100,000 words or more, and they don't want to read all that. Most of them are writing poetry, which I know nothing about, or short stories. I've BEEN in writing groups.

The people who have read my stories tell me they like them, and I believe it, but they don't know the "rights" and "wrongs" of making a manuscript ready to send to a publishing house.

I'll probably never get published because selling a novel is really difficult, and I'm not into the romance genre, which is the easiest to sell. However, I'd love to find readers because what fun is telling a story to nobody? Therefore, I'm trying to get published the conventional way first. When that doesn't happen, I will self-publish and at least have my own novel to give to each of my children, and maybe even sell some to others.

Being honest,
Chris

[Jamesaritchie]

I'd love to find one mentor I could pay who would help and not charge $5000. I can't count on just myself because I'm an amateur. Since I'm not a kid, I don't have 50 years to perfect my craft either

I just don't believe paying will get you any closer to your goal. You're no more an amateur than any of us were when we started. The best thing a pro writer has to offer isn't his advice, it's his writing.

It isn't what a writer tells you about your writing that's important, it's what you see in his writing. A writer can talk all day and tell you nothing, or he can show you his writing and tell you everything. Every short story and novel you read is a master plan, a ready to use template for what you should do and how you should do it.

There just aren't any shortcuts. We all get where we are by reading much, writing often, and submitting everything.
Even those you would hire got where they are by reading much, writing often, and submitting everything. Age just isn't a factor. Young or old, this is what makes a writer.

I don't suppose craft is ever perfected, but not many of us had fifty years to perfect ours, either. Some of our best writers were already pretty old before writing word one.

[mr mistook]

RULE OF THUMB: "Consider the source."

Everybody has an agenda. Professionals want money for their feedback. Friends want to spare your feelings. Fellow writers may feel competitive. neutral strangers might not have enough interest in your work to give decent feedback. All feedback is skewed. You can't trust any one person or group.

Take the harshest criticism as seriously as the finest praise - and hold that up to your own conscience.

[Nateskate]

I'm concerned about this. I read a recent "Writer's Digest" with agents grading submissions of Query Letters.

Honestly, one of the ones they rejected I liked very much, whereas the one they praised simply wasn't my cup of tea, although they were a very successful author now.

It just goes to show that there is such a thing as "Taste" and some of the "Experts" simply have eclectic tastes.

I've seen some movies that were panned by critics that were loved by the masses. I loved Pirates of the Caribbean, but a lot of critics panned it. Well, when they make 600 million with a failure, they show that fans and critics don't always agree.

Likewise, I think it's a game to a certain degree, because a book might never get published, simply because it doesn't appeal to agents.

Well, let me point something out. They aren't looking at it like a fan would. They see so many submissions, that a high quality meat and potatoes approach would bore them, where we might think it was a great story. And that's because they are saturated with things like that, and only the "unique" sticks out to them. Some may have become like movie critics where a great people pleasing movie bores them. And you can't risk boring the gatekeepers to the industry.

[novelator]

The hardest part of critique is not allowing anyone's comments to pull you off course.

I quit writing groups because there were too many hidden agendas to deal with--people afraid to say what they think versus the ones who felt they needed to find something wrong no matter what versus others who were simply jealous.

And I don't like the way this sounds, but I outgrew them because I write all the time, every day without fail, and they didn't, each for their own reasons. When I asked them about it, some were openly hostile to me. Then I outgrew my mentor, who is still a very close friend and will red pen my work when I ask her, but she told me she was proud of the fact that I felt I didn't need to ask her anymore.

I have a couple of writing buddies now that I'm about to outgrow, if I haven't already, but I still send them stuff to critique, then take their comments with a grain of salt, lump them together with my beta-readers, and if there's a real issue, it shows. The most important conclusion I've drawn is that there must come a time when I'm confident enough as a writer to float my own boat. And right or wrong, that's what I do now. Not that I don't see the value of my writing buddies and their comments or the opinions of my beta-readers, just that those comments and opinions are not allowed to pull me in a thousand different directions.

I have a long way to go, and no one masters the craft, not really, but hell, swimming with the same fish in the same old pond is going to keep you at the same level unless you strike out on your own. I have to say, I've never been one content to simply tread water. But that's just me and this is only my humble opinion. YMMV

Mari

[ChrisW42660]

I love to read too...lol. So I do learn by reading! However, some books are so bad to me, it's amazing they ever got published! I remember one book where the baddie in the story would almost talk like "You dirty rat!" How stereotypical, and it didn't work for me at all, the reader. I've read books I loved so much they made me cry or laugh. Maybe I should just write my novels, as I've been doing, study books I like, and stop paying people to help me. But...

I was under the impression that if you broke certain rules, you were doomed. "Show don't tell" "Only one POV per chapter" etc. I write very fast moving, plot-oriented fiction, and skimp of lengthy description of scenery. I want to get to the nitty gritty of the story, and I love to give birth to characters that I create. I try to make sure that every time a character talks, HE is talking, not ME and not another character--this is great fun for me. By the end of my manuscripts, I'm almost sorry to be done. Since I'm in the general fiction genre, I was told to study books in my own genre. Any suggestions on who may be a good role model for me? I've thought of Jonathan Kellerman, Sidney Sheldon, Mary Higgins Clarke....?

The sad thing is, I love escapism and give me a hot romance novel and I'll love it every time over my own genre. However, I don't like to write romance novels, and am not good at them.

Ah, the problems of a writer! I do write every single day and I dont' have to force myself to do it; I love it.

In the back of my mind, I'd still like to hire somebody to check my chapters and send them back to me, critiqued. I wonder if I should approach our local college to see if there are any tutors?

[maestrowork]

I think you can learn just as much by reading "bad" fiction.

There are some things (not necessarily rules) that you should never break, such as basic grammar and spelling. But I've read a book that was written entirely as exposition (you got it right, no dialogue, etc.) -- I didn't even finish the first chapter, but obviously it got published and sold... or POVs that go all over the place. Some of them worked, and some didn't.

[Jules Hall]

I was under the impression that if you broke certain rules, you were doomed. "Show don't tell" "Only one POV per chapter" etc.

I don't think there is any individual writing rule that you can't break and get away with it in some circumstances. But some people just don't seem to understand that that doesn't mean you can ignore the rules and write however you think will be most interesting. The rules exist for a reason.

A little while back, I wrote a few critiques for someone with an obsession with "breaking the rules". He just didn't seem to understand when it was acceptable and when it wasn't. That prompted me to develop what I call my meta-rule. It says, "do not break any rule that you cannot clearly explain the reason for, and why that reason does not apply to what you are writing."

[James D Macdonald]

Old advice but good:

Nothing teaches you how to write a novel better than sitting down and writing a novel.

Read good books. Life is short; why fill your mind with trash?

Before you break the rules, first understand the rules.

[ChrisW42660]

How do you know what the rules are? I know some, not all.

[James D Macdonald]

How do you know what the rules are? I know some, not all.

Strunk&White, or Fowler.

[SRHowen]

My thoughts are on why you think you need to pay someone--does this make the advice better because you paid for it? Even book doctors and paid editors will have their own style ideas, and their own ideas on how to re-work the ms.

Get some writing books, James suggested a couple, I'll add Grammar for dummies to those titles.

Then toss in The Complete Guide to Self-Editing Your Fiction--Writers Digest Books.

After reading those books, and reading books in your genre, good and bad (you learn from both) and writing writing, you may want to join a writer's group.

Shawn

[ChrisW42660]

Well, if I can get somebody who has already been published, then I figure they know what works. Usually those types of people expect $$$, which is ok, if it helps.

[maestrowork]

Well, if I can get somebody who has already been published, then I figure they know what works.

Maybe, maybe not.

Let's just say, there are published authors who should get some help themselves.

[SimonSays]

I don't agree with those who say you never need or should never pay for a good story editor or consultant. I disagree that those who say beta readers are always enough.

I used to do alot of script consulting. I have an ability to read a script and see instantly what works and what doesn't. Where the structure is weak, where the characters are under-developed.

I know a lot of writers who at the time were far more experienced and successful than I was - but they were unable to give me the kind of critique and evaluation I could give them - they just didn't see a script the way I did.

Did I give suggestions on how to make things work? Yes. Partly because I felt that it was more helpful to show how it could work rather than just tell them what they needed to do to make it work and partly because throwing ideas out there, can often get someone's own mind working to generate their own ideas.

Did I charge for my services? After awhile I did. It was very time-consuming - and I was providing a service that had value to the writers.

I think the biggest thing you need to separate out when getting your work critiqued - is what feedback is simply a matter of taste and what feedback is about what works. Many people do not have the ability to communicate what is working, only what they like. Sometimes buried within the likes and dislikes is actually a clue to what isn't working. But you need to read between the lines.

[Writing Again]

I was once told you could become a great writer simply by studying Dickens. Read everything he wrote and ask yourself why he did rather than do something else. Once you understand why he did what he did you will understand why you should do what you do. You will learn what he knew.

How did Dickens learn what he knew? Quite possibly by doing the same thing with previous writers. Studying, analyzing, understanding.

I am personally not convinced that finding out what is wrong with your MS or screenplay is the best way to improve upon your writing or your story. I constantly hear what Stephen King does wrong, what J.K.Rowling does wrong, what Pirates of the Caribbean does wrong, what Titanic does wrong.

Frankly my dear I don't give a damn what they did wrong, or even what I do wrong -- What I care about is what they did RIGHT and I want to incorporate as much of that "right" into my own work as possible.

Then people can criticize my blockbuster and tell me all the things I did "wrong."

[SimonSays]

Writing Again -

A good consultant approaches the work not just from an art level but from a commercial viability and publishability or producability point of view. I'll talk about producers rather than publishers, because that's where my expertise is. Producers are looking for certain character, structure and thematic elements that must be present in order for a story to work. If elements are missing or not developed, the script fails - even if the concept is strong.

I'm not suggesting that everyone go out and hire a consultant, many do not need them. But I do think that there are many who can and have been helped by them - and they should not be dismissed out of hand.

[ChrisW42660]

Hi, Simon:
Exactly! Reader A may like my manuscript, but not know what an editor will toss in the trash. There are certain things that turn them off. I'm not vain enough to think I'll ever get published, but I'd love to try, and I feel I need professional help to have even a small chance. I don't think all authors follow all the rules, but, if you're already a selling author, like Stephen King, you can write and sell, even with guffaws.

If I can't get published, I will self-publish so that my kids have a legacy from me, but I want to try the conventional way first, and I don't think a bunch of amateurs know what an editor is looking for.

Since I can't write like Dickens, and have no intention of trying to write like him, I study regular books. Some are good and some bore me to death. SOMEBODY liked the book e nough to publish it though, and I try to understand why.

Thanks,
Chris