ADHD Authors, and grammer or is that grammar teachers that..

[Nateskate]

I'm wondering if there are any other ADHD people out there; you know, "We coulda, shoulda, woulda been rocket scientists, if we could have just focused on the math and chemistry!

Well, that is if we didn't forget to bring our homework to class? Oh, where's that stinking pencil? Could you loan me a pen, I forgot mine?

It's not particularly fun being ADHD, but I also know there are many teachers/profs on these boards that we probably drove out of their minds!

If you are one or the other, and would like to comment, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[maestrowork]

I don't think I have ADHD, but I'm kind of restless as far as wanting to do many things in a short period of time. On the outside I'm a very quiet, laid-back person (my writing group can attest to that), but on the inside I'm like a wild man. I can't sit still for more than a few hours. If I'm on a beach for more than 3 hours I'd scream, "Let's get out of here and do something!" I can't watch TV because I find myself switching channels all the time. My workout routine lasts only 30 minutes. The only thing I can really just sit and enjoy without thinking of something else is seeing a movie at a theater... I think my threshold is about 3 hours.

Obviously, that poses a problem for my writing life.

[Nateskate]

Attention deficit and hyperactivity aren't always side by side, but are often clumped together because they often appear together.

I've known hyper people who have great attention. They aren't forgetful at all. And I've known people who have terrible attention, but don't appear hyper at all.

My two sons are opposite. Both have ADHD diagnosed by psychologists/neurologist. One is extremely hyper. He fidgets 24/7, has to change positions all of the time, yet he is organized, and not particularly forgetful.

The other one is not particularly hyper, except to tap like crazy once in awhile, but he is the most disorganized person you'd ever meet. When he was younger, he'd go out to play and he'd always come back with something missing. How can you lose your shoe or your coat? Everyday? Throughout school, he had to have two sets of books, one for school and one for home, because he always lost his books when he was allowed to carry them.

So you can be "Hyper" and have good attention, or have terrible attention, and not be hyper.

[drgnlvrljh]

I tend to run in the "geek" circles. And one thing I've noticed, is that the majority of computer geeks, and heavy gamers are frequently ADD, AD/HD. And of those, most of them are very successful in what they do. It's all a matter of finding what you love, yes?




EDIT: Egads! My typo demons are getting agressive.:eek

[Writing Again]

If I were going to school today I'm sure I would be diagnosed as ADD or ADHD and drugged out of my mind until I quit asking questions and until I quit reading books that were beyond my grade level.

I find it interesting that the kid across the street from my niece who is diagnosed as ADHD is the only kid in the neighborhood to spend all day around her yard sale, reading one book after another, playing chess with the adults, and learning how to play GO. All the other non ADHD kids in the neighborhood were standing on the street corner having meaningful conversations with the lamp post about their acne. True during this time he ran and jumped around the yard, climbed the tree, and played with the dogs while his peers demonstrated their maturity and physical prowess by refusing to move any faster than their ninety year old grand mothers were capable of.

In the late afternoon his mother came over to drag him home: She was upset that he had not taken his morning medications.

[Gala]

A benefit of ADHD some of us have is excellent ability to focus. It's like the peripheral distractions close down, and the mind goes into a tunnel.

Obviously the ability to multi-task, when developed, is priceless.

You might enjoy books by Howard Gardner. His studies led him to prove ADHD is a type of intelligence, rather than a handicap.

Another feature of ADHD for many is that coffee calms us down. Yeah.

A challenge for me is keeping my desks and work areas neat. There have been years at a time when I lived in slobdom because all the paper in my life wasa tangle of spaghetti, impossible to detangle. I taught myself to organize in ways that work for me. With all my writing projects and accumulation, this became crucial or I wouldn't be able to track what's out there, what came in for review, what's in progress.

People who see my house say, "You're so organized, so neat!" They never believe me when I say our greatest strengths are often a manifestation of overcoming weakness.

Paper bugs me. Yet I'm a reader, writer, musician; I love type, publishing, web management. Everything I must have in life to be happy involves paper and words. I often fight the urge to burn all the paper; I also keep fewer books around. I have few to no pictures on walls. Helps me focus to look at blank space, and there're so many movies playing in my mind at a time, I don't require contained images (framed art) to inspire. I have those in the areas I use to relax and ponder travel, however.

Gardner's ideas fo ADD/ADHD being "not a bug but a feature" were useful to me, and also helped me in volunteer work with kids who are being diagnosed by the system with this "handicap."

[drgnlvrljh]

Personally, I think way too many children who are just very bright, and easily bored with things at the level their peers are at, are being diagnosed as ADD AD/HD.

Too many people want zombies for children.

*steps down off her soap-box*

Sorry. Carry on.

[Nateskate]

Well, there's the "Real Deal" and there are the false diagnosis, and there's a world of difference.

My first son was diagnosed because we thought he was having minor motor Seizures, and was blanking out. He would have staring spells where he wasn't responding to anything.

He was a tornado from the moment he left the womb, but being new parents, we never had any clue what was happening until we took him to the neurologist for the suspected Seizures. He said outright that he had ADHD.

The neurologist suggested holding him out of school an extra year, because he would have trouble in school, and wouldn't be able to keep up with peers, which was good advice.

The second son didn't seem hyper at all. He was just always living in another realm. We got notes home from every teacher he ever had, every day of his first few years of school: "He's not paying attention--he's interrupting other kids--he's staring out the window.

He was that kid who in little league sat down in the middle of the field to chase a bug while the game was going on.

But he wasn't hyper, and we never knew that he could be attention deficit without hyperactivity. It was his fifth or sixth grade teacher who sent home a note, and said, "I never believed in ADHD until I had your son in class. I think he needs to be tested"

So, we paid to have both sons tested by Neuropsychologists. And it turned out they were ADHD and rather off the charts, as if we didn't know.

In fact, we ended up at war with the school-long story, which was why we needed to get this verified by a psychologist.

It's a real disorder. Your brain has a gateway/filter, which allows you to tune out distractions. That gateway isn't working in ADHD kids. A fly on the wall is as important as the test they are taking. They can't tune out the whispers, the person who walks by, and because of that, they are distracted constantly. It can be internal distractions, constantly juggling things in the mind, or external. But Ritalin stimulates the part of the brain that allows the gateway to work.

Ritalin won't work for non-ADHD kids. It's a stimulant and could have a paradox effect on them, making them more hyper.

[drgnlvrljh]

Oh, I agree there's the real thing.

All three of my kids were "accused" of being AD/HD by teachers and such. They didn't have the true signs of this. They were just ahead of their peers, and bored. I refused to medicate them.

My littlest is 7. She's just been tested again in her reading and math skills. She's in 2nd grade (US), and reading about 6th grade, and doing 6th grade math.

Problem is, there's a catch-22 for these kids. They'll act up because they aren't being challenged, but they won't advance them because they're acting up. (At least around here).

My little one is happiest when she has art supplies, puzzles, books, and writing supplies. IF she's ADD, she's not bad enough to need medication (like with any medical issue, there are varying degrees). I'd rather challenge her. I have hopes she'll be a great writer. But I have a feeling that whatever she does, she's going to be awesome.

[Writing Again]

I grew up left handed at a time when you were given a "F" for any paper written with the left hand unless you had a doctor's certificate stating your right hand was incapacitated. If someone hadn't made a law against persecuting left handed children I'm sure by now they would have developed a drug to cure the dysfunction.

I'm not going to go so far as to say that ADD and ADHD do not exist, nor will I say that in its most extreme forms it should not be treated: What I will say is that in most cases the diagnosis has more to do with bringing the child into conformity than it has to do with benefiting the child. I will also say that milder cases would probably benefit more from understanding and tolerance than from drugs.

I also have to note that while people deplore the lousy physical shape our children are in, they deplore far more the child who is in any way active. The teenager sitting on the curb in a drug induced haze is ignored while the kid on a skate board is attacked as a social monster who should be banned from existence.

One of the biggest complaints against my niece's neighbor is that the kid likes to climb trees -- Something that was once considered a normal childhood activity.

[Nateskate]

It is amazing that ADHD kids can do so well in certain things. I work with M.Ds and Psychologists. My youngest son, who has ADD is terribly distractable. It drives me to distraction.

However, he is very focused on a few particular things, even to the point of obsession. I asked one of the psychologists, who happens to be head of Psychology Dept at a nearby college, and certifies most school psychologists, why is it that my son can't focus for ten seconds on some things, but he's glued to others.

He said that this is very typical of ADHD kids. They can focus on a specific task that is highly interesting to them, which is why, if those kids have good self-esteem, can eventually excel at a given trade. This is also why so many ADHD kids do better in college than they did in K-12. In college you can major in a subject that interests you. You can avoid subjects (for the most part) that aren't suited to your strengths.

However, more often than not, ADHD kids end up stuffed into LD classes, despite having high I.Q, because in some cases, the school would prefer not to have to deal with special accommodations. But if you throw an intelligent kid, who just has trouble with focusing, in special ed, you take away all of their incentive to push themselves.

Some schools are better than others, but I had to threaten to file a lawsuit against my school in order to get them to comply with Federal Laws regarding my own kids. Some teachers were miffed, "What do you want me to do?" -It's not my job to teach you how to do your job, that's the job of the district. If your school doesn't offer inservice and access to the school psychologist to give you suggestions, then your problem isn't with me, it's with the district. But I won't sit back while you ruin my son, and they would have.

[Jamesaritchie]

I grew up left handed at a time when you were given a "F" for any paper written with the left hand unless you had a doctor's certificate stating your right hand was incapacitated.

I have an aunt who actually had her left hand tied behind her back in school so she had to write with her right hand. I believe this gave her problems all her life.

[Writing Again]

I have an aunt who actually had her left hand tied behind her back in school so she had to write with her right hand. I believe this gave her problems all her life.

I'm sure you are right.

By the time I came along they had "modern teaching methods" and were "More civilized" but I'm convinced I have suffered mental and emotional problems all my life because of the treatment I received over being left handed.

It has certainly cast a shadow over every interaction I have ever had with "authority" in any form.

[mr mistook]

Some disorder's we rarely pay attention to. Many people with the following disorders go undiagnosed their whole lives. The tradgedy is that we already have the drugs to treat most of these afflictions:

----------------------------//

IMAGINATION DEFICIT (IDD) - Subject is extremely boring and conformist to an irrational degree.

ATTENTION SURPLUS (ASD) - Subject is totally dependant on other people to tell him/her how to think and act. Total inability to ponder objects set before him/her. Utter lack of fantasy life.

NON-POLAR (NPD) - Subject has no emotions. Total lack of empathy. Irrational dependence on logic to solve all problems.

SKEPTIZOID (SKD) - Subject trusts authority figures, news anchors, and scientists implicitly. He/she will construct elaborate "coincidence-theories" to explain obvious conspiracies.

SOBRIETY ADDICTION (SBAD) - Every three minutes, another sober driver causes a car accident. Sobriety is known to instill a false sense of superiority and confidence in users. In the worst cases, subjects are unable to get drunk and stay drunk.

[Gala]

surely I'm not the only ADHD'er on AW? Did I miss a reply?

My parents tried to break me of being left-handed, but to no avail. I use both hands, and sides of my brain very well. Hit baseballs, dribble basketballs, and play instruments right-handed.

I wish someone would invent left handed English script. Yeah, that'll ketch on like the metric sys did here in America.

I took Mom's diet pills--amphetamines--in high school. Calmest most productive days of my young life, and the ability to focus clearly incredible. I only remembered this a coupla years ago when I attended Court Advocate training for ADHD/Meds for kids.

ADHD isn't a bug or a defect; it is a blessing and a feature. So there.

[mr mistook]

Gala,

I hope you didn't take my previous post wrong. I've been called ADHD, Bi-Polar, Paranoid, and Alcoholic. I've never been officially diagnosed as these things, because I've never gone in for analysis - but all the armchair psychologists in my life have pointed out these supposed "defects" in my character.

I'm on board with you. Whatever it is in my make-up that resembles (or may actually be) ADHD is something I consider to be a blessing and a talent - even if most other people want to beat it out of me.

My previous post was simply to point out that "normal" people can be seen as having "disorders" too... at least from my point of view.

[Gala]

Mr. M.,
Oh I've had a few official diagnoses myself. If I'd believed them I'd have spent time in the funny farm.

I don't believe in the blank slate; I believe I was born, not made. I argued with therapists over that for years and finally gave up on them. (In their defense, they were good listeners and I needed that.)

When I explain my family history and personal struggles, people say, "but you're so normal!"

Are you familiar with author Janet Frame? They were ready to fry her with electroshock within minutes, when she was handed a letter saying she'd won an award. She went on to win fellowships and awards. But I digress.

I found your list hilarious. I may have to give a few people certificates ;)

[Jules Hall]

A benefit of ADHD some of us have is excellent ability to focus. It's like the peripheral distractions close down, and the mind goes into a tunnel.

The first time I heard this, a couple of years ago now, something clicked for me. I've never been officially diagnosed, and if I have it, it's a very minor case. I don't suffer from hyperactivity at all (unless you count wanting to stand up and walk around a bit every now and then when I've been sitting down and working all day!), but my attention does seem to vary between concentrating on one subject for hours at a time (I can keep doing one thing for much longer than anybody else I know), and just not being able to even get so far as to start thinking about something (yep, my ability to procrastinate is unmatched, too).


Obviously the ability to multi-task, when developed, is priceless.

But that's something I absolutely don't have. I am much less capable of multitasking than most of my friends, because if I try to do two things, something about one of them will distract me away from the other.

Another feature of ADHD for many is that coffee calms us down. Yeah.

While it doesn't calm me down, it certainly helps me concentrate.

I dunno, I figure maybe this is something I have. It doesn't cause me a lot of problems. I forget to do things, is the biggest one (admittedly, that can get big enough at times :( ). And I like the advantages, if the two are related in my case.

[maestrowork]

Another feature of ADHD for many is that coffee calms us down. Yeah.

Cripes, that's me. Actually I don't drink much coffee because it gives me headaches.

[Nateskate]

Hmmm? When did I know? I don't think I did know until I had kids.

But I always had trouble focusing on a one to one conversation. My mind was all over the place, and I'd catch myself, and bring myself back. But I'd miss perhaps 60 percent of what people were saying, especially if they were doing a monologue.

And when I read, I'd always loose my place. I'd have to keep coming back, because even when I read, sometimes my mind would be elsewhere, and I'd realize I didn't absorb the words.

I loved making toy models, but hated reading directions. And so, I had a tone of models with extra pieces left over. In fact, to this day, reading directions is one of the hardest things for me.

I did tend to lose things, until I developed systems to help me remember.

I was a great basketball player, but it always took me much longer to catch onto the plays. I'd have to ask the kid next to me, "Where do I go next?" And it was because, again, my mind would be all over the place when the coach was talking.

My teachers sort of liked me, but I also irritated the poor things to no end, constantly acting up, and changing the subject. I spent a great deal of time in the principals office.

[CaoPaux]

Personally, I think way too many children who are just very bright, and easily bored with things at the level their peers are at, are being diagnosed as ADD AD/HD.
Amen. I was often scolded by grade-school teachers for reading ahead and/or completing an entire workbook before they assigned it. School was an excerise in boredom and frustration on many levels. (They want me to do good. I'm doing good. But now doing good is wrong....) GATE classes helped somewhat, but that just increased the teasing by my "peers" for being an egghead. *sigh* </pity party>

[tjosban]

I also have to believe that. If they diagnosed ADD/ADHD as much as when I was young as they do now, I probably would have been diagnosed. I was just bored all the time because I didn't have think much to get my work done.

In first grade, I was so bored that I was putting glue on my hands, letting it dry and peeling it off because I was so bored. I remember it because one day the pile became so huge that my teacher threatened to send me to the principal if I did it again.

I daydreamed and didn't pay attention in class because I was bored beyond belief. I had everything done. I understood it all. I never studied anything. My mother considered skipping me two grades for a long time, but it never happened.

I believe there is the Real Thing, but I also think that in the schools' efforts to make everything 'equal and fair' they overlook the children who are bored. There is tendency going around schools and daycares to not single any child in any way whatsoever. It's more than slightly discerning, as we are all unique.

Not one of my teachers ever did anything for me and it should have been obvious that something was not right. At that age, I would have gladly accepted extra assignments or extra reading time.

[Nateskate]

This is true. It is important to differentiate what is going on: anxiety, boredom...etc.

With my second son, we thought it might be boredom. His I.Q was in the superior range. However, once he got into those honors classes, his disorganization became a worse problem. He'd do assignments and forget where he'd put them, lose his books...etc. They were less forgiving of forgetting your pencil and notebook, and expected more from students.

But that's supposed to be the school's job to determine which is which. They just aren't very good at it.

At anyrate, we all survived our ADHD, which is sometimes a trick in and of itself, because people assume not paying attention is always a motivational issue, and intentional, when it isn't for someone who really has ADHD.

[mr mistook]

I used to draw in my notebooks all through class. Teachers thought I wasn't paying attention, but that's how I took my notes. I found that if I was working on a picture, it made it much easier to concentrate on what the teacher was saying

and then, days or weeks later I could look at the parts of that drawing and remember exactly what was being said when I drew each part.

Nobody approved of my method, but I'll tell ya... I've retained everything I learned in grade school and high school, where most other people my age have long since fortotten it.

[Nateskate]

Yes, I know what it is like to be scolded! Shivers....

[Writing Again]

People, especially adults to children and bosses to employees, and often spouses to spouse, get angry when they perceive you are not paying attention to them because they have this misplaced fantasy that what they are saying is somehow of major importance.

Most of what they say has no significance beyond their own ego gratification.

For instance why should I have to stop what I am doing and stare at someone's lips for ten minutes in order to prove I am honoring them with my "full attention"? I understand the English language quite well and I am not hearing impaired. I am quite capable of standing in the other room and fixing coffee while hearing and understanding every word they say.

Not only do they suffer the delusion that every message they convey is important, but they think every confound word of the message is important -- And it isn't. When I say the sentence "Most words in any given sentence are garbage fillers that aid but are not essential to understand meaning." And all you read are the words, "most words", "garbage fillers","not essential", "meaning" you will understand the message.

The reason you are not supposed to draw, pass notes, or stare out the window while teachers and other "authorities" are speaking is because they are so self absorbed in their own delusions of greatness they feel everyone should worship at the feet of their wisdom.

When I talk with those I love I go about whatever I am doing while I converse with them. When I choose to impress a fool I stare intently at them as they speak and put my mind in gear to doing what I love best: Write my next story.

Invariably they believe I hungrily drank in every word of their wisdom.

[drgnlvrljh]

And that, my friends, is the meat of it, isn't it? No one is exactly like another, and we all have our own ways of retaining information. I know that if I'm -looking- right at the person talking to me, and concentrating really hard, I'll never remember a thing. If I'm doodling, or doing something else, I will remember, because there's an association of sorts. I can't learn a thing reading it in a book, but if I have someone guide me while I do it, I'll remember it better.

It's all a matter of how we learn. And unfortunately, the American Public School system doesn't want to bother. That kind of education is too expensive and time-consuming, so they try to educate all of us the exact same way, and hope it sticks. And not everyone can afford private schooling.

There is also the issue of dumbing everything down so that everybody is equal. I think this hurts more kids than it helps.

So what to do? Me? I do my best to help my kids in a way that they can retain the info.

[mr mistook]

Yeah, it's ironic. I'm finding the older I get that the more I allow my mind to wander freely, the easier it is to keep track of what the people in the room are talking about.

I suppose I'll always come off as this kind of distant person who has the tendency to drift off, but in general, i'm discovering this ability to daydream and follow reality simultaneously.

The problem my whole life was in trying to focus on only one or the other. When somebody demands my undivided, my imagination makes the same demands, and the old inner-brain wins out because it knows me better.

Now if I give my own brain it's own undivided attention, it won't focus for long on any one thing. It flips like channels... it follows endless rabbit trails. If I put it to a task... if I start moving my hands and focusing my eyes and giving it an outlet, then it works with me.

And now I'm finding that at work or in other situations where real people demand my attention... I can give it to them if I'm moving.

This is probably THE reason that I'll never be able to give up smoking. Nicotine be damned, I'm addicted to the MANUAL fixation of having a prop to manipulate, pose with, and stick in my mouth as an oral pacifier.

Before I ever smoked, I chewed the hell out of pencils and pens, and I ripped up napkins and fiddled with salt shakers. I drove people nuts with my fidgeting. Now that I've found cigarettes, heart-attack be damned. I'm stuck with them.

[Nateskate]

First let me say, I care about people in general. But in a one on one conversation that is primarily them telling me something long and detailed, I simply can't keep my mind on track.

And I try. It really bothers me to no end. And so, I'm piecemealing together what they are saying in between the drifts.

But, it does depend on subject matter to a great degree. If they are telling me about their hip surgery, and every doctor they went to, and stretch it out, they'll lose me in a matter of minutes.

However, if someone is lecturing on a subject that I love, I seem to not only be able to listen better, I almost have an elephant's memory for what they said.

[Nateskate]

Writer again, the big difference as I see it is in the area of motivation.

In certain situations, respect should be expected, but that is a two way thing.

My one son had a terrible time with algebra. But he voluntarily got a tutor on his own in his free period, and even gave up his lunch to get tutoring from the teacher. That's two tutors a day. And yet, he was failing.

I said, he can't be in the right class if he is giving his best effort and failing, why don't you put him in a remedial class.

Essentially, the teachers answer was "He has the ability. He just doesn't pay attention to what he's doing. He participates, always does his homework, and he's a great kid. In fact, he looks like an A student, but he bombs the tests"

And so, we had this meeting, and after consluting with a friend who was a school psychologist, I was informed that the school is obligated to find a way to teach any kid with a special need, under federal law. And that could include untimed tests, verbal tests...etc.

The teacher was a great guy, but he just saw things in black and white, thinking "Fair" means "Same", and that if he gave my son any different type of testing, it wasn't "fair".

Well, a wheelchair ramp isn't fair by that definition. You are giving someone with a wheelchair an advantage LOL, if you make it possible for them to have access to the school.

So, he said, "If he would PAY ATTENTION, I know he could do it. And of course, you say, "He has ATTENTION DEFICIT DISORDER, which is a biological disorder, in which PAYING ATTENTION is impaired. And so, helping him overcome his impairment is not being unfair.

My son would rush through an hour test in fifteen minutes. He just feels constantly pressured. And so the teacher ended up circling the questions he got wrong, and handing it back to him to do it again. But this time he would focus better, and look for where he lined numbers in the wrong columns or put a decimal in the wrong place.

There are mandates which tell the school that they have to accomodate any special need, which is why schools DON'T like it when you get your kids tested. Teachers DON'T like the extra work of doing a "verbal test" for one kid, because some are overwhelmed, and some may just be stubborn and lazy.

You learn alot when you go to war with a school, and we had to. My other son had a severe hand injury, and as a result his hand cramps up when he has to write alot. So, they allowed him to type. But when it came time for a state aptitude test, the Principal said, "We can't make an exception. He has to write." And I said, yes he can, and he said, "no he can't"

So, I got on the phone to the department of educational compliance in my state, and made them call my principal and say, "Yes he can." And so he was able to type his answers, getting in the 99%. But had he written them, they'd have looked like chicken scratch, and he'd have written short two sentence answers because of hand cramps, and likely would have gotten in the 20%.

Ah, both are almost through college, and generally are honors students. One will go for a masters, the other for a Law Degree, so the war was worth it. By the way, I have a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy now. I am so burned out from Jr. High and Sr. High, that I never ask how they are doing, if their homework is done. Just tell me that you've passed, and that's all I want to hear. Of course they like to show me their grades, because they are proud.

But I survived having ADHD, and having to raise ADHD kids in a hostile educational atmosphere. YEAH!

[reph]

mr mistook wrote: "Yeah, it's ironic. I'm finding the older I get that the more I allow my mind to wander freely, the easier it is to keep track of what the people in the room are talking about."

Could this be stochastic resonance? Just yesterday, I looked into stochastic resonance because it came up in another context. Interesting thing. It's a paradoxical phenomenon in which adding a small amount of noise to a signal makes the signal easier to detect. This effect is observed in some functions of the human nervous system.

[allion]

This was me all through grade school. Well, not the glue part, but I drew on a lot of my notebooks, and once even the desk, which I had to stay after school to clean...hey, I was bored.

High school and beyond things became more interesting, I guess, but I still doodled and read the book through while the teacher was still giving out the nightly homework.

My parents would ask if I had homework, and I usually would have it done before I left school for the day. I was bored, plain and simple. I could read at a grade 12 level when I was in grade 8. I always did well, except for gym class (ha!) but I was not interested in what was presented to me.

I did end up skipping grade 3, which caused some issues with me being younger than everyone else from then on in school. I started at age 4 in kindergarten due to the date of my birthday, so I was ahead of everyone else from the start.

Compound this with the speed reading course they gave us in grade 6, and I became a reading demon. Served me well in university for English.

I daydream a lot, especially at work. And I find I drift off during what I call boring conversations.

Yet, I don't think I have ADD. Whatever I have is a gift, and it may take more of my concentration to finish things, but I wouldn't want to be any other way.

[sc211]

While not about ADHD, I found this book on children being held back from achieving in school a few months ago.

www.amazon.com/exec/obido...FMLROGKGOM (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743254600/ref=wl_it_dp/104-3907060-1072706?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=I2VNL4X6Q5THPU&v=glance&colid=3AUFMLROGKGOM)

It's odd to say, but with that book and this thread, it's good to know I'm not the only one who was frustrated with it all. If just to know that another understands. Maybe that's what these kids need most.

[Nateskate]

I have two children. One was AD, the other was HD. And honestly, I have a bookload of stories from the get go.

The times they sifted two fifty lb bags of sand (Meant for gardening) in my kitchen sink, and when they blocked that, they went to the bathroom and blocked the bathroom sink, and then the tub. Sand in the oak cabinets (ever hear of sand paper)

There's the painted hardwood floors and furnature incident.

There's the time they unscrewed the bedliner of my truck and it flew into the river incident.

There's the rocks in the gas tank incident (X3)

There's about fifty E.R visits for dislocations, accidental poisenings, and the seam ripper to the head, the split tongue...you name it, they did it. "The Bigwheels off the dresser incident- the wind pushed brother off the porch incident"

The forty gallons of water in the rug incident. (If you have ADHD kids, get a wet vac!

The empty every content of the refrigerator incident. The powedered sugar incident- it gets into places you'd never imagine.

And through all of this, since exorcism didn't work, you tell yourself, "You'll get through this storm. They'll grow up some day, and you don't want to send this message, "You are evil! You are evil!"

In a sense, we looked at the ADHD as a third guest in the house, "I know it's hard for you to sit still...but..."

And just when they grow up, and you no longer have those two week periods where they've broken seven windows in your house, and the time they broke four dressers, you have to deal with the schools which are not designed for ADHD kids, and the attitude problems, and the condescending people who don't believe ADHD is a real thing, but you just must suck as a parent, or that you don't discipline your kids.

And then there is surviving the relatives who simply don't want to watch your kids because your kids wear them out, so you feel alone on an Island.

But again, this is just a huricane passing through, and if you survive and you can instill self-esteem in that kid, and protect them from the people who misinterpret what's going on, I can say, "You'll have great kids on the other side."

I do have two great kids, and I hear that every day from all over the place. Well, they are young men now. 22 and 21.

[mr mistook]

Could this be stochastic resonance? Just yesterday, I looked into stochastic resonance because it came up in another context. Interesting thing. It's a paradoxical phenomenon in which adding a small amount of noise to a signal makes the signal easier to detect. This effect is observed in some functions of the human nervous system.

Reph, I know exactly what you're talking about. I read a similar article years ago. They explained why vynil albums in good condition sound much richer than CD's. The background noise makes the nuances stand out better. This also works in visual context. Visual noise helps the eye pick up small details.

I have also read in psychology books that when a schizophrenic hears voices, they are always eminating from an external sound. For instance, "Son of Sam" heard voices in the barks of a dog next door (creepy!). Other's have described hearing voices in the fading ring of bells, the sound of passing jets, or in a simple fan. Visual haluscinations work the same way.

The brain is able to pull sounds and visions out of any neutral background. If you stare at the static on a television long enough, your mind will "find" forms in the random pattern.

I remember one night about 15 years ago, I was with a girl and we were stoned. She had a stucco ceiling in her apartment and she had me lay on the floor with her. She showed me how if you stare at the random pattern in the stucco, you'll start to see moving images. It was WILD!

[sc211]

This Thursday, 23 December, on Dr. Phil:

Parenting with Pills

Are kids being overmedicated? Dr. Phil is joined by Dr. Frank Lawlis, author of The ADD Answer: How to Help Your Child Now, to look at the ADD crisis. How do you know if your child has Attention Deficit Disorder or ADHD that should be treated with medication? Plus, find out about alternative treatments that could change your child's life.

[mr mistook]

...since exorcism didn't work...

and

In a sense, we looked at the ADHD as a third guest in the house

First of all, you deserve some kind of an award! You must be a very loving, very brave parent.

Second, your story is weirding me out just a bit, because in the planned sequel to my current WIP, I planned to have a little girl who is dogged by a mischevious poltergeist. Her story is going to be like "Cat in the Hat" on steroids.

[Writing Again]

Writer again, the big difference as I see it is in the area of motivation.

In certain situations, respect should be expected, but that is a two way thing.

There are four types of respect. Enforced servility, reciprocal, unilateral, and strategic.

Enforced servility is only appropriate in societies of serfs, slaves, military, or others where human rights and freedoms are not acknowledged. Step aside and let your social superior pass. Salute the uniform not the officer who wears it.

Reciprocal respect is that which two people give each other out of recognition that both people are human beings who have a right to be in the world. It is best exemplified in politeness. The relative age and social position of the people involved do not matter. If either person withholds it, in a free society, the other has a right to withhold it as well.

Unilateral respect is that which is freely given and may be highly limited in scope. For instance you might respect the beauty of a singer's voice while having no liking for the songs they choose to sing. You might admire someone's political skill while deploring their politics.

Strategic politeness is that which is given with an ulterior motive in mind: to manipulate someone, to make life easier, to prepare a defense, or to gain an edge in some other way.

One of the questions a free society must answer is how much respect does a child owe to adults, particularly those who are in positions of authority over the child and who are unfair or disrespectful to the child.

[Nateskate]

Obviously I was speaking metaphorically. Or was I? Only my exorcist knows for sure.

Well, there were no demons, just hyperactive kids. But at times it would make a person think, because their actions were so destructive.

My eldest, at two years old would destroy things on impulse. If the phone rang, and my wife went to answer, he'd destroy something. One time he grabbed a broom handle and started smashing chandelier lights.

And then there was the time he stuck a lightbulb in his brother's diaper, which smashed, and miraculously didn't cut him. And the countless times he hurt him.

And he was cruel to animals as well at around 2-4 years old. We had kittens and he stuffed them in his socks and well, it wasn't pretty. And although the dog was larger and faired much better, he did things to that poor dog, but that dog never once bit him. At most he'd give a growl and walk away.

So, it weirded me out. But fast forward, he's the kindest most sensitive kid in the world. We were walking on a beach in Sanibel Island, after a storm, and animals and star fish washed up on the beach. So we went up and down throwing them back in.

Now, some of the exotic starfish are beautiful, and if they are dead, I planned to dry it out and keep it. Well there was one I was convinced was dead, but Dave thought it might still be alive, and just traumatized. And then when I said I was thinking about keeping it, he said, "Dad, if you are going to err, always err on the side of life." What could I say? So, I threw it back in.

[mr mistook]

That's just so vexing. You must have spent many sleepless nights trying to understand them. Now that they are older, do they ever talk about those escapades with the sand in the drains and the light-bulbs in the diapers? Do they tell you what they were thinking? Do you laugh about it?

[Nateskate]

Well, the sleepless nights were for a number of reasons. They broke every kind of lock we put on doors. I'll tell you what, if you have a child empty EVERY SINGLE container in your refrigerator while you are sleeping one night, then shower the house with powdered sugar the next night, then cocoa mix the third night, you don't go to sleep until you know they are, and you wake up at the sound of a pin drop.

That and they were both prone to chronic ear infections and high fevers, which was another sleep destroyer.

Yikes, I have so many stories, that it's like having a jukebox. Just push a number and another story pumps out.

Let's see? What do you do when your kid unscrews the gas cap on your neighbors lawn mower and fills it with fertilizer?

Shampoo in the fish tank anyone?

Oh, here's a priceless one. Have you ever brushed your teeth to find soap on the toothbrush? They used mine to scrub the sink. Well, I got the better deal. They used my wife's to scrub the toilet bowl.

Do you know how many times I heard, "Well, I never knew anyone who ever did that before!"

Oh, and visiting my mother, "Don't worry there's nothing here they can hurt!" I just looked at the place she was staying(rented) filled with every kind of temptation known to kiddom, and the huge exotic bird in the huge exotic birdcage, thinking, "That won't last long" and it didn't.

I think by the second night they had destroyed so many things that we turned west and headed home, cutting the visit short.

[mr mistook]

I am so sorry... I can't help but laugh out loud at some of those examples you gave, even though I know it must have been torture. Please... reap your riches in humor novels! You can't have gone through all that for nothing!

I suppose "chemistry set" was WAY out of the question as a christmas gift. Sounds like the whole house was a chemistry set!

I'm still just trying to understand their motivation... all I can think is they were plagued with this absurd, yet insatiable curiosity... "What happens when I pour shampoo in the fish tank?"

My older brother had moments like that when he was a kid... maybe more than they ever talk about on Thanksgiving. He painted the cat green, that's one I remember.

On the way to school once he ditched his raincoat in some shrubs because he thought it didn't look cool. Some kind mother offered to give him a ride home at the end of the day (because he had no rain coat). He made her stop at the house where he'd stashed his coat. She knew that wasn't his house, but he told her we'd moved (two blocks). She bought it. He looked in the shrubs - the raincoat was gone. My mother got a call...

"Mrs. Melody? I have a little boy on my porch crying. He says I stole his raincoat."

[Nateskate]

I'm a walking library of potential books. I've lived an odd, but interesting life.

And don't worry, you feel free to LOL. Sometimes when my friends here these stories, the ROTFLMAO.

But in reality it was very hard, because over time, you have more and more neighbors who won't talk to you. And then you find out what your kid did, and you don't want to talk to yourself either.

And for whatever reason, they went through a several year period of dumping every item out of every drawer (EVERY DAY), and pulling their bedding off, and turning it into a Big Wheels raceway. That get's tiring after awhile.

Honestly, my poor wife is one of the most incredible women you'd ever meet. She has always been a leader in her field, spoken at international congresses as a keynote speaker, and she is published by the way.

But my kids almost did her in. I'd find her slumped on the floor between the washer and the dryer begging me to admit her to a mental hospital.

So, my job was basically like a tag team wrestler, to come right home after work every day and take the kids out in the woods or somewhere that if they broke it, we didn't have to pay for it. And that was my life for years.

But in retrospect, at the time I felt cheated, like someone has stolen my life, which was because I was young, and thought sports and other things were so important.

Now both my boys are grown men, who have in the past year or so, "Finally stopped beating each other", and who are rather delightful for the most part.

And shortly after seeing LOTR, I longed for the woods again. And I'll tell you something. I suddenly realized how much I missed taking my kids out there, and building forts, swinging from vines.

Although at the time I was too immature to appreciate it, there was something absolutely magical about those memories, and I realized I didn't know a good thing when I had it, and would have given all the other STUFF I thought was so important to be able to take those boys out into those woods one more time for a good old game of hide and seek.

[Crusader]

mr mistook:
Yeah, it's ironic. I'm finding the older I get that the more I allow my mind to wander freely, the easier it is to keep track of what the people in the room are talking about.

reph:
Could this be stochastic resonance? Just yesterday, I looked into stochastic resonance because it came up in another context. Interesting thing. It's a paradoxical phenomenon in which adding a small amount of noise to a signal makes the signal easier to detect. This effect is observed in some functions of the human nervous system.

Writing Again:
Not only do they suffer the delusion that every message they convey is important, but they think every confound word of the message is important -- And it isn't. When I say the sentence "Most words in any given sentence are garbage fillers that aid but are not essential to understand meaning." And all you read are the words, "most words", "garbage fillers","not essential", "meaning" you will understand the message.

Sometimes i think i see connections where there may be none.

In this case, the concept of "stochastic resonance" is subtly being applied on both sides of a fence; on the one hand, the argument is that a given signal needs some noise in order to be processed better, yet on the other hand, the argument is that the noise in a given signal isn't necessary and hinders processing. [scratching head] How can it be both? In the case of speech, if the theory of stochastic resonance holds true, then wouldn't the filler words in a conversation be the noise that made the signal easier to process, and therefore hold the attention better?

i could guess that maybe it does come back to what was said; people process differently. So while one person may be content with verbal input--"garbage filler words"--as the noise in their signal-to-noise ratio, another person may need visual or tactile input to accomplish the same effect.

And i think i'm reacting primarily to the negative tone of Writer Again's opinion, since the stance thereof seems rather unnecessarily absolute and intolerant. Under the theory that people have different, yet equally valid oersonal criteria for what is signal and what is noise, it would be a flagrant discrimination to look down on anyone else who genuinely functions best on one type of noise input or another. The better angle would be for both parties to recognize any disparity in their communication patterns, not disparage each other for being "different".

[Writing Again]

And i think i'm reacting primarily to the negative tone of Writer Again's opinion, since the stance thereof seems rather unnecessarily absolute and intolerant.

It is absolute and intolerant, but not of the difference in people. It is intolerant of the authority figure who tells a helpless child, "Can't you stop fidgeting? Sit still when I talk to you. Now shut up, look at me and listen when I talk, do you hear?" Which, rather than having the claimed result of "making the child pay attention" has the obvious result of either scaring the poor kid half to death or making them rebellious.

I've heard husbands say it to their wives, cops say it to people who were trying to tell them the thief was escaping, and bosses say it to employees.

From the day I was a child till now I have heard three slogans from teachers whose tone never changes. The first is "The parents are always to blame for everything." If the parent works they are not giving enough emotional support, if they don't work they are setting a bad example, and if they think the child might be right they are unreasonable.

The next is, "We have modern methods now. You can't hold us to blame for the way schools were run ten years ago, we do it the right way now." Note that ten years from now they will say the same thing with the same certainty, "We are doing it right this time."

And the most important one of all, "We must maintain our authority."

[betjam]

I have ADHD. I have always thought, I can get a tremendous amount of work done quickly, and take care of many people. I wrote 3 books and still writing, not published. Raised 3 children and sent them all to college. However, it is hard to slow down and if someone stops me I can "tilt" and lose everything I'm doing. I forget names real easy and it can be embarrassing. My spelling is awful without a computer. I felt computers give me some back of what ADHD takes away. I'm also dyslexic. I have a high IQ and that helped. I'm shy and unsure of myself at times. I have always felt dyslexia and ADHD may come from a trauma whether a blow to the head or mental abuse. I'm a youth counselor and found many of my kids have similar problems and are often creative. They had troubled lives and low self esteems. With help they can make great strides. I came from abuse and went to college (Bach degree), I earned almost all straight A's But I really had to work at it. It was never easy. I think we can be great authors with much to say. However, it is hard to ovecome the correct grammer sometimes.

[Writing Again]

I remember a guy who downed a pint of whiskey before company meetings. When cornered about the practice his explanation was, "How else am I to sit through two hours of people repeating the same pointless crap they said every meeting for the past year?

I use to laugh at him but when I think about his claim that, "Being soused helps me focus my mind," and apply it to some of the things said here I have to wonder.

How many alcoholics out there are just trying to obey the injunction, "Sit still and listen to my boring dirge?"

[betjam]

I agree, many of the youth I work with have substance abuse problems. I have to make working and educating themselves more interesting then the drinking. I think I just tried to avoid large groups, myself, for fear I would show my problem. I have two sister who did become alcoholics, they had some of my problems too, dyslexia, shyness, etc. My oldest sister had a high IQ, but suffered depression and was exstremely heavy. She hardly went anywhere. It was sad she could have been so much more. She did go to college but never worked afterwords. She is creative and does alot on the computer. She writes too. I put myself into the kids mine and theirs. Until that was what I knew best that is why I work with kids now. I want them to get there sooner it took me a lifetime to overcome my problems. I went to college after my kids and I'm buying a house and I have three grandkids now. I'm a late bloomer I guess.

[Crusader]

It is absolute and intolerant, but not of the difference in people. It is intolerant of the authority figure who tells a helpless child, "Can't you stop fidgeting? Sit still when I talk to you. Now shut up, look at me and listen when I talk, do you hear?" Which, rather than having the claimed result of "making the child pay attention" has the obvious result of either scaring the poor kid half to death or making them rebellious.

While i agree with this position, the point you're stating here is different from the point i was critiquing:

...When I say the sentence "Most words in any given sentence are garbage fillers that aid but are not essential to understand meaning." And all you read are the words, "most words", "garbage fillers","not essential", "meaning" you will understand the message.

Your overall argument in the post was something of a rant against self-important people who demand exacting attention to their statements, regardless of the worth of those statements. Embedded in that argument was the point that the bulk of words in a sentence are 'filler' and can be disregarded without losing the meaning.

My counterpoint: the 'filler words' may very well be easily discarded by a person who uses visual cues, but they may be quite essential to someone who is verbally oriented (on the grounds that the signal-to-noise ratio in a sentence suits their ability to communicate).

As such, the negative tone of your comments on that specific point, struck me as potentially discriminatory, unfair, and unproductive, just as when people dismiss the needs of those who aren't verbally-cued. The attitude resembles something like, "well, -i- personally don't need to pay attention to every word, therefore people who expect me to tolerate their word-cluttered statements are being egotistical jerks." In other words, the inverse of the attitude that "people need to pay attention to every word, therefore anyone who can't or won't is a disrespectful freak that should be punished."

Basically, the strength of your very justified anger towards egotistical and abusive people, motivated me to make sure the baby didn't go out with the bathwater: i feel that the mere nature of a style of communication shouldn't be accidentally or intentionally stereotyped as a sign or tool of rampant ego or abuse.

[betjam]

After wading through your reply I think you missed the point. It was the "abuse" heaped on children for not being like you, (those who needs "big" words to express themselves). You have every right to talk and write like that but you shouldn't expect others to always want to listen. Just as I know I can irratate those who love perfect grammar by my mis placed letters and scrambled sentences. There is one difference, my brain works this way by nature and yours by desire. I don't feel you can compare the life long struggle to overcome language barriers with the pure enjoyment and self-pride you get by writing the way you do. Maybe I am wrong in what you meant, but deciphering your wording made me lose your point. Also, I hope I didn't write this too bad, as now I fear you.

[Crusader]

To whom it may concern: i typically refresh this board while i'm occupied online, and i noted a little while ago that this thread in Writing Novels suddenly updated, with my post listed as created at 2:14pm or something.

Except, the post in question was written yesterday; the timestamp on the post bears that out. And, i didn't post anything at that time today.

So, forgive my confusion on how a day-old post suddenly re-timestamps itself in the forum listing. Is the board prone to errors like that?

* * *

@betjam:

Are you addressing me in your post? i'm a bit confused by several aspects of it...

[Nateskate]

Glad to see you strove to overcome and help others with what you've learned.

It is humbling to have any type of problem. I relate very much to your story, and I'm terrible with grammar. I think I may have some insight into it. When I see certain words, I tend to see every variation of that word. "Your, you're".

I have no trouble with my "yours" except when I'm rushing, but there are other words where for whatever reason, I'm all over the page.

On the other side, I have an almost photogenic memory for other things. Some people focus mostly on their strengths, and others on their weaknesses, for a variety of reasons.

I think the goal in life is to come to that place where you aren't measuring yourself up against every one else, and what they can do, but only against what you know that you are capable of.

[reph]

"So, forgive my confusion on how a day-old post suddenly re-timestamps itself in the forum listing. Is the board prone to errors like that?"

The time stamp on a post doesn't change. The time stamp on a thread does if anyone edits a post in that thread.

[Crusader]

@reph:
The time stamp on a post doesn't change. The time stamp on a thread does if anyone edits a post in that thread.

Ah. So after an edit to any post of a thread, the "Last Comment" timestamp for the last post of that thread will change? No wonder i was confused... thank you for clearing that up.