Profanity in your novel?

[BoyBlog]

Okay, I searched and didn't see a thread about this for the last month and a half, and my arse was too lazy to search further (It really is, it just walked off!)...

How much profanity is too much profanity in a novel? Is there an amount of profanity that an editor reading your full or partial would be shocked... or, is there never *too* much?

[MidnightMuse]

In my opinion - if it's in there because the writer newly discovered 4-letter words, it's too much. If it's something a reader will notice, it's too much.

If it's there only when needed, it's enough.

[Saundra Julian]

I agree with Muse. A little goes a long way, too much is a real turn off.

[kristie911]

If the character requires it, then it's not overboard. But make sure it's not just swearing for the sake of swearing, your reader will notice when it's not warranted.

[JoNightshade]

Only when needed is correct. Even if every single one of your characters swears a blue streak every time he opens his mouth, you should pare it down. My dad always told me that people who use profanity profusely are just too stupid to be able to construct a coherent sentence, and in part he's right. It can become a crutch, a catch-all for extreme emotion. And if you use it to much, it becomes ineffective. Background noise.

Also, it really depends on your character. I think profanity is often a useful way to differentiate between characters. For instance, one of my characters never, ever swears at all. This is a function of her personality. Another character swears frequently. Yet another will only occasionally swear, when he is under a lot of stress. Of course this is not the only way I show character, but it is part of the overall picture.

[Andre_Laurent]

I have a character who tends to launch the F-bomb on a regular basis...I think I will have to wash his mouth out with soap on the second draft. To much is just too much.

[Southern_girl29]

I agree with the others. I don't like a lot of profanity in a novel, but if the character is the kind of character who speaks that way, you have to use it. I do think it can be parred down though.

[Death Wizard]

When used sparingly, the F Bomb can have a very jarring effect, which is great if that's your intention but not so good if it's not.

[Scrawler]

"Shit" is the only 4-letter word I use in mine. I just don't like reading gratuitous profanity. I don't like filthy-mouthed characters in my real life, and don't find them "entertaining" in novels.

[Siddow]

There's a bit about this in Self-Editing for Fiction Writers, and it was such a great example that it's forever burned into my memory.

Ya know, this is a book about writing, so it's very clean. Then you get to the part about profanity, where the authors echo the sentiments above, ending with saying, "Just imagine the power a single obscenity can have, especially if it's the only one in the whole fucking book."

Whoa. Got it. That one line blew me away.

[ClaudiaGray]

Use the amount appropriate for your setting. If you're writing about life in a maximum-security prison, you probably need to lay it on pretty thick. If you're writing about the Daughters of the American Revolution in the 1930s, maybe a little less. ;)

I agree that you should probably use the least you can while being true to your setting, in order to make sure that the language has the most impact.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

In my opinion - if it's in there because the writer newly discovered 4-letter words, it's too much. If it's something a reader will notice, it's too much.

If it's there only when needed, it's enough.


That is also my opinion. If a writer uses profanity just to get a rise out of their readers, then I think they're using it too much.

But if the characters and the story need the profanity, then by all means put it in.

In my own WIP, I have several scenes where profanity is used ... even the dreaded 'F-word' is used at least once or twice in the work. But this is done in situations of anger or emphasis, and not just as casual conversation.

But then again, I thought the cussing in Beverly Hills Cop was quite appropriate, because Eddie Murphy's character was an inner city police officer and for the character, cussing was a part of everyday life.

So the point I'm trying to make is, the story and the characters should be the only factor in deciding whether or not to put profanity into a work. (Heck, these should be, in my opinion, the only factor deciding whether or not to put anything into the piece, but that's another subject altogether.) Too much, to me, is just putting it in for the sake of having a cuss word in the work.

[janetbellinger]

I think profanity has already been done and has become a cliche. If I hear it, I want it to be from unexpected sources, such as in The Kite Runner, when Muslim Soraya throws a couple of f-words around. In t hat context, it makes an impact. If a nun said it, it would also impress me, otherwise, it has no value at all.

[NeuroFizz]

Every character in a story should have a unique voice, and a realistic one. If a character is the type who would use foul language in normal dialogue, best to make it realistic. This cuts both ways, though. Realistic requires that the author doesn't overdo it.

If an author writes an inner city punk youth, and omits foul language because of some authorial stand against such things, chances are it will read as unrealistic. And this is not just an inner city thing. DJ Jazzy Trevor of Pierre, South Dakota will likely throw a few f-words around while mimicking his hip-hop heroes. And I'll bet a significant number of white collar types will come up with a doozy or two after hitting a thumb with a hammer while pounding down the nail pops in the hot tub deck.

[Soccer Mom]

Heh. THere is none in my last two books, because I'm writing middle-grade now. Here's the kicker. I had to run a search (find and destroy) on some four letter words in my last ms and was shocked at the number that had slipped through. Oops. :tongue

[FennelGiraffe]

How much profanity is too much profanity in a novel? Is there an amount of profanity that an editor reading your full or partial would be shocked... or, is there never *too* much?

When we write dialog, we don't write all the umms and uhhs and ya knows and pauses and repetitions that people use in real life. We only include them in the rare cases where we want to draw attention to the hesitation. Dialog is more coherent, more meaningful, than the way people really speak.

In my opinion, profanity falls into the same category. If it's appropriate for a character to use it, fine. But a little goes a long, long way--use it much more sparingly than such a person would in real life.

[BoyBlog]

There's a bit about this in Self-Editing for Fiction Writers, and it was such a great example that it's forever burned into my memory.

Ya know, this is a book about writing, so it's very clean. Then you get to the part about profanity, where the authors echo the sentiments above, ending with saying, "Just imagine the power a single obscenity can have, especially if it's the only one in the whole fucking book."

Whoa. Got it. That one line blew me away.

That is pretty jarring!

*Must. Purchase. Book!*

I always have the problem when editing if the character should be a little censored or not. For example, I wrote about an inner city spy and he has a filthy mouth, but I'm not sure if it would go over better if I edited him a little.

Of course, in real life he would tell me to mind my fucking business and move on, but alas X_~.

[mscelina]

for me it depends on the genre. YA--absolutely not. Erotica--absolutely yes. Everything has its place. It's a writer's job to know where that place is.

[maestrowork]

How much profanity is too much profanity in a novel? Is there an amount of profanity that an editor reading your full or partial would be shocked... or, is there never *too* much?

Too much for your story. Too much if it's repetitive (do you need to use the F word every other sentence?). Too much if it's the wrong target audience (Harry Potter doesn't use the F word). Too much if it's not true to the situation and characters. Too much if it's gratuitous.

[Spiny Norman]

If it sounds right for the characters. Look at stuff like The Big Lebowski or Knocked Up. They drop crazy stuff left and right (almost didn't say "stuff") and after a while you tune it out and don't notice, because you're paying attention to the character and that's how the character expresses himself. Holden Caulfield tossed around his fair share (excluding "fuck," as the only time that's included is a tirade against its use) and the only people it upset were overly protective PTA moms who had never read the book. Still an American classic.

If you do it right no one will notice, because they'll feel like they know the character and then it's not an issue anymore. They expect it and anticipate it.

[jclarkdawe]

Just out of curiosity, I checked my WIP. It has 44 f-bombs. Is it too much? I don't think so. Story is about a twelve-year-old girl who is severely injured in an accident, resulting in her being in a wheelchair and massive amounts of pain (daily Oxycontin and Percocet). To make her life even crappier, same accident kills parents and her brother.

Pain and suffering are a big issue in the book. Much of the swearing is in her head. Is it too much? I don't think so, but we'll have to see how my readers (when it's ready) vote.

I don't think it will have a problem being sold with the present amount of profanity. It's used in periods of massive pain and frustration, which unfortunately there's a lot of.

Jim Clark-Dawe

[Shady Lane]

Just out of curiosity, I checked my WIP. It has 44 f-bombs. Is it too much? I don't think so. Story is about a twelve-year-old girl who is severely injured in an accident, resulting in her being in a wheelchair and massive amounts of pain (daily Oxycontin and Percocet). To make her life even crappier, same accident kills parents and her brother.

Pain and suffering are a big issue in the book. Much of the swearing is in her head. Is it too much? I don't think so, but we'll have to see how my readers (when it's ready) vote.

I don't think it will have a problem being sold with the present amount of profanity. It's used in periods of massive pain and frustration, which unfortunately there's a lot of.

Jim Clark-Dawe

Is this a YA?

In my experience, YA books are way more tolerent. Teenagers skim over curses, and don't think of them as a big deal. It makes the thought/dialogue more natural.

[maestrowork]

I personally detest profanity. In my experience, folks who constantly spew the F, S, MF and C words are boors, cretins, thugs, or all three. (The entire rap music industry, e.g.)

You and I probably won't be friends. ;)

[mscelina]

I personally detest profanity. In my experience, folks who constantly spew the F, S, MF and C words are boors, cretins, thugs, or all three. (The entire rap music industry, e.g.)

However, if you wish to efficiently illustrate that one of your characters is a boor/cretin/thug, it's hard to beat a few choice bits of obscenity-laced dialogue. One of my villains (a spouse-abusing drunkard next to whom Bill Sikes would seem charming) does use filthy language, although far more sparingly than such a person would in real life.

Of course, he does come to a singularly unpleasant bad end. That'll teach him! ;)

Why, Barb you *bleep* how the *bleep* can you saysuch *bleeping* things all the *bleeping some more* time, *bleepadableepit*. I *bleeping* expected *bleeping* better from you *bleep*.

Whew! That was hard! ;)

[heyjude]

I don't like profanity either. I will occasionally allude to it, but that's all. I've been known to put down a book that used too much gratuitous language, particularly taking Jesus' name in vain. That's just icky.

[janetbellinger]

True, but as a reader, it might bore me to read those words, especially if they are used in abundance.

[NeuroFizz]

In my experience, folks who constantly spew the F, S, MF and C words are boors, cretins, thugs, or all three.
Pidgeon-holing people is always such a great exercise for fiction writers, and for humanitarians as well.

[Sassee]

This question also depends on your view of what words are "profane."

Growing up, we were never allowed to drop F-bombs, call someone a bitch/c-word/mofo, or anything "extreme" like that.

Words like "shit" and "crap" however, were part of normal speech. My step mom couldn't tell us not to say those because she threw them around all the time. (her reasoning - she grew up on a farm, what else do they have to curse about?)

Then there are the very mild ones like saying something "sucks." I personally don't view that as a bad phrase at all, but there are some parents who are rabid about it.

Use your best judgement. If YOU think it's too much, it probably is, and keep your setting as well as your characters in mind. Little 7 year old Sally doesn't need to be throwing around F-bombs unless she's grown up in an extremely bad neighborhood or has guardians who need to be shot for their horrible parenting. On the other hand, if 40 year old Bubba is a crazed homicidal maniac with Turrets Syndrome then it's probably fine (and expected) that he'll throw around some serious verbal abuse.

[janetbellinger]

I guess it all boils down to the quality of the writing. If it is outstanding work, then the author can have the characters say anything. If it's just entertainment, then the reader may be more judgemental. I remember the first time I read profanity in a book. I was in Grade 9 or 10 and the book was James Baldwin's original "Another Country," and it was a book that told me something about Harlem at the time. It was an educational novel because I learned something from it. Forty-odd years later, the profanity doesn't have anything to teach me. It doesn't shock me or open my yes, it just bores me. Some people may feel they need to have their novel characters f-ing this and that and that's fine but I just get tired of reading it. Never-the-less, if it is a book by an author of Baldwin's talent, then I'l wade through the language. In my opinion it's all about whether or not the story can engage me. The language is secondary.

[scarletpeaches]

I personally detest profanity. In my experience, folks who constantly spew the F, S, MF and C words are boors, cretins, thugs, or all three. (The entire rap music industry, e.g.)

Wow, very open-minded of you there.

Me, I prefer to get to know people as individuals before I judge their entire group.

[johnnysannie]

I personally detest profanity. In my experience, folks who constantly spew the F, S, MF and C words are boors, cretins, thugs, or all three. (The entire rap music industry, e.g.)

;)

Maybe you should get out more;)

[reenkam]

I think that now YA books can definitely have certain words (sh*t, b*tch, etc.) without any problem whatsoever. Most teens wouldn't even notice, since friends say them all the time. I think f*ck can be used to, though I think it becomes more of an issue if it's a verb rather than an adjective/adverb/noun.

Personally, I'll use all "lesser" profanity, generally, and I replace f*ck with either freakin' or frickin' depending. Well, I did use it a couple times in one ms but I don't think it stood out...it went with the story (I hope...)

[scarletpeaches]

In your experience? You've met every single person involved in the rap industry then?

I find if you label someone a sewer-mouth before you even know them, you're quite likely to increase their use of profanities. Funny, people get angry when they're judged by someone who says they're boors, cretins or thugs.

[Danger Jane]

I personally detest profanity. In my experience, folks who constantly spew the F, S, MF and C words are boors, cretins, thugs, or all three. (The entire rap music industry, e.g.)

I swear a lot. I would not describe myself as any of those things.

In my WIP, there are about three swears, I think, none of them particularly severe. In another short I'm working on, there are six f-bombs in 7,000 words, which was kind of a lot for me. But it takes place in a high school. And we swear a lot in high school.

ETA: I do know in what company I can let my thuggish mouth loose. I would never, for instance, swear in front of my eight-year-old sister. Or even my sixteen-year-old sister (she doesn't even know what pot is). I would not swear in front of my grandma. Or in church.

But I disagree with those who say "You can find a better adjective/noun/verb." No. Sometimes you CAN'T.

[mscelina]

now now, can't we all just *bleeping* get along? Surely this isn't a topic worth squabbling over! We all have our preferences and opinions due to our personal experiences and upbringing.

I happen to be a classy lady with a sewer mouth--admitted! I eat with utensils and use a tissue to blow my nose and try really hard not to pass gas in public. Occasionally, I'll even sit down with my French relatives in Paris and indulge myself with coquilles st jacques and pate de fois grois and perhaps even a little smidgeon of Marquis de Chasset Bordeaux Blanc from time to time whilst sitting upright with my back not touching the chair and my ankles crossed.

But I can see Barb's point too. People who curse all the time are annoying. It's like they never made it past the four-letter-word section of the dictionary. My teenagers' preference for rap music has led me to forbid some of my favorite words from this house. I can live a lifetime without hearing some of them again.

*shrug* different points of view. it's just cursing. geesch. *bleep* forbid there's a discussion about religion or politics.

[aadams73]

I swear to God there's no fucking swearing in my novel.

[JoNightshade]

For me it was a matter of perspective and degree. Personally, I do not swear, primarily for religious reasons. When I was first starting out as a writer I had a lot of debates with myself about using even mild cuss words. But then I realized, hold on, I'm writing stories about people killing each other. And I'm focused on swear words here? Then I realized that if I was going to write capital-T Truthful things, I was going to have to get over my queasiness and portray life as it is. I had to stay true to my characters, realize that life is full of infinite variety and variation and as an author, it's my job to include all of that. Not gratuitously. Just truthfully. In a fictional sense, if you know what I mean. :)

EDIT: Just as an example, I have a short story which uses a few mild profanities, shit, crap, etc., from two brothers. But the most telling line in the story comes from an otherwise "classy" lady who uses the word "fuck" just once, literally, as in 'sex without love.' I debated about that one for a long time, but then I realized that there was no better way to put it than to use that word.

[rugcat]

As many have noted, it depends on what you’re writing.

My first novel was a thriller about a cop and his colleagues. I wanted it to be realistic, and as an ex cop, I knew how cops talk. (Not all cops, admittedly) As a result, the word ”fuck” was prominent throughout the book, mostly in dialogue. It's not that I couldn’t think of any other way to do it; it was simply an accurate depiction of who these characters were.

My current book, an Urban Fantasy, uses the word maybe twice in 100 K. And in neither book was I consciously making a decision about using it.

[scarletpeaches]

I once wrote an entire book without using a single swear word, just to see if I could. And I managed it.

For other stories, it wouldn't be possible. Well, it would be, but it would detract from the verisimilitude of that world.

I always wanted to use 'verisimilitude' in a post. :D Yay me!

[Writer2011]

I think too much swearing is a real turn off.. but if your character speaks it (and not every other word or anything) it's fine... but if you go overboard, then I would say yes it's too much.

I've used profanity in my books, but not every other word...:)

[My-Immortal]

Like any other word, if it is the 'right' word then stick with it.

Just my .02

Take care all -

[mscelina]

For other stories, it wouldn't be possible. Well, it would be, but it would detract from the verisimilitude of that world.

I always wanted to use 'verisimilitude' in a post. :D Yay me!

Good for you! I'm still trying to find a way to sneak in 'defenestration'

[Sandy J]

Since I write romance, I use profanity sparingly. About like I use it in my own life. Shit pops up every now and then. (That statement's funny in so many ways.) A damn and hell here and there and even a goddamn. No f bomb though. I think that's a romance no-no in my book. I read a paranormal once, and the hero stopped and thought, "F that." I just stared at the page for a few minutes because it seemed so out of place, yet so appropriate. However, I'm simply not comfortable with that word, even if I do drop it on occasion when I'm especially angry.

[Danger Jane]

Good for you! I'm still trying to find a way to sneak in 'defenestration'

Complete defenestration of cursing can detract from a work.

Metaphorical/10?

[rugcat]

I always wanted to use 'verisimilitude' in a post. :D Yay me!


...Of course if you really have a unique hook, it's a great selling point.

"Dear Editor,
The fact that I actually am a werewolf gives this book added weight and verisimilitude."(12/13/06)
Nyah, nyah, I beat you by six months.

[scarletpeaches]

Oh bugger.

Whoops! ;)

[Death Wizard]

But I disagree with those who say "You can find a better adjective/noun/verb." No. Sometimes you CAN'T.

Ha!!!

[scarletpeaches]

Uh, no...if you were to call someone a boor and they weren't, THAT would be an insult because it would be untrue.

[Dancre]

Okay, I searched and didn't see a thread about this for the last month and a half, and my arse was too lazy to search further (It really is, it just walked off!)...

How much profanity is too much profanity in a novel? Is there an amount of profanity that an editor reading your full or partial would be shocked... or, is there never *too* much?

I would say use Profanity as you would the word But. Sparingly. Too much and it just gets old. I have 4 curse words in my YA and I cringe. LOL!! Just don't go overboard.

kim

[EriRae]

My biggest problem with YA cursing is not cursing, using phrases like "that sucks" or "that's gay" instead. I'd rather see the f-bomb than someone trying to get away with putting down someone's sexual orientation because they're too lazy to say "that's stupid."

I even hashed it out in my novel: a kid that says "that's gay" all the time is murdered by the MC who's in the closet.

I searched and destroyed quite a few swear words in my second and third drafts. It helps to ask yourself (along w/ every other word choice) if the words are really necessary, if they move the story along, if it's worth alienating those who don't like swearing just to make your point.

[scarletpeaches]

I'd say yes. If someone doesn't like swearing, they can buy someone else's book.

[swvaughn]

My fucking characters swear all the fucking time...

They are thugs, though. :D

[scarletpeaches]

Anyone who swears is a shitebag.

[reenkam]

My biggest problem with YA cursing is not cursing, using phrases like "that sucks" or "that's gay" instead. I'd rather see the f-bomb than someone trying to get away with putting down someone's sexual orientation because they're too lazy to say "that's stupid."


What's wrong with "that sucks"?

I've never read/used/said "that's gay" before, but I don't think I'd automatically see it as a hit at someone's orientation. Though I do think that people shouldn't use it...:Shrug:

[scarletpeaches]

If my characters would say something was gay, then I write it.

Honestly, censoring your characters makes no sense. If people in their walk of life would swear but you delete the profanities, you're detracting from the 'realness' of your characters. They'll seem like goody-two-shoes.

It'd be like someone being punched and saying "Gosh - that hurt!"

[Shady Lane]

What's wrong with "that sucks"?

I've never read/used/said "that's gay" before, but I don't think I'd automatically see it as a hit at someone's orientation. Though I do think that people shouldn't use it...:Shrug:

"That's gay" is a hit at orientation. "That sucks," as far as I know, is not.

But, I agree with Scarletpeaches. My characters aren't me. My characters aren't my readers. How they talk has flat-out nothing to do with my opinions and personal bias. I don't want a big author intrusion. I don't want there to be some blank where I've obviously deleted an expletive. That's an author intrusion.

[scarletpeaches]

If we only wrote according to our own morality, none of my characters would do drugs. They'd all be celibate. They would refuse to use the C-word. They'd all be heterosexual (in intent of course, being celibate) and they'd never get drunk, commit murder, rape, theft or arson, or break the law in any other way.

Wow. Sounds boring, huh? Just as well I don't write about my own life.

[Zoombie]

My second book had the F-bomb every other word. And it got old. Real fast. That's cause I had just learned that I could type F-u-c-k and a giant fist from heaven woulden't come down and smash me into a red past.

So now I've toned it down a lot. Cause if you don't swear a lot, then when you do, people notice!

And all the swears in my novel are made up and have to do with the sweage system and things that live in them.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

I'd say yes. If someone doesn't like swearing, they can buy someone else's book.


Agreed. I would wager the vast majority of readers do not give the proverbial rat's rear end what my characters say. Those who wish to squabble over a cuss word and not look at the rest of the story because *OMG, there's a cuss word in this fictional novel* really, in my own humble opinion, did not buy the book to read in the first place, but rather bought it to dissect it.

One thing I never understood was the idea that if you write your character saying a particular word or form of blasphemy, you're therefore automatically condoning it. NO YOU'RE NOT; It's fiction. Do you condone your neighbor cussing up a storm when you listen to them doing so? What about if you write what they said down word-for-word? No? So why is it wrong to write your characters saying a cuss word if they need to say a cuss word?

My view: there's nothing wrong with it, because it's your character speaking and not you.

[scarletpeaches]

I think the problem comes, Sean, when people say your characters are extensions of you.

In my case they're not. They come from my imagination, but they're not 'me'. I could write about murder (and have done). That doesn't mean I condone it, just that it came from my imagination.

[reenkam]

My view: there's nothing wrong with it, because it's your character speaking and not you.

I agree. Unless, of course, you're writing a story about yourself. Then adding profanity if you never use it could be kind of weird...

I pretty much never curse in real life, but I don't hesistate to type it. I'm acting as another person/character when I do dialogue so if they talk like me...well, it's just wrong...

I think the problem comes, Sean, when people say you characters are extensions of you.

In my case they're not. They come from my imagination, but they're not 'me'. I could write about murder (and have done). That doesn't mean I condone it, just that it came from my imagination.

I definitely agree. A lot of people, non-writer's mostly, seem to think that everything and everyone I write about is saying what I believe and/or what to do. And while it'd be fun to have superpowers and save the world, I don't really want to torture anyone, thanks...

[Sean D. Schaffer]

I think the problem comes, Sean, when people say you characters are extensions of you.

In my case they're not. They come from my imagination, but they're not 'me'. I could write about murder (and have done). That doesn't mean I condone it, just that it came from my imagination.


I hadn't thought of that, Scarlet. But the problem with a character being an extension of the writer is a bit incorrect, I think. It's kind of like a picture printed out on your printer being an extension of your printer. All the printer did was copy the picture from the computer's hard drive onto a piece of paper that is not a physical part of the printer. You can print hard-core pornography on the same printer you would use to print a portrait of a Prophet. Does that make the printer a prophet or a pornographer? No, because the printer is merely putting to paper what the person running the computer wants it to print.

The same, I think, is true for a writer. They're like a printer, putting down on paper whatever their imagination tells them to put down. It can be beautiful, or it can be obscene. But these things are no more an extension of the writer themselves, than the picture a printer prints out is a physical product of the printer itself. No, it comes from a different source, namely, the computer's hard drive.

I had another, more biologically relevant illustration I could have used, but I didn't want to be gross or otherwise inappropriate on this open forum.

But my point is that a writer's characters are products of the writer's imagination, not a part of the writer's personality or the condition of their soul.

Another good example is Adolph Hitler. When he was young, he tried to be an artist. His pictures were pretty to look upon, but he was still Adolph Hitler, and he still murdered a lot of people.

So I think it should go without saying, that what a character in a novel says is not a direct reference to what the author is like. Fiction is very different from reality. If not, then it's not fiction.

[rugcat]

I've never read/used/said "that's gay" before, but I don't think I'd automatically see it as a hit at someone's orientation. Though I do think that people shouldn't use it...:Shrug:Oh, that kind of thinking is just so gay.

[scarletpeaches]

I completely agree with you Sean - my post was simply speculating on what other people seem to think of writers. That you're writing about yourself. But that shows a lack of understanding of what fiction is.

To quote Barbara Taylor Bradford: "A novel is a monumental lie that should have the absolute ring of truth."

[Tornadoboy]

I swear to God there's no fucking swearing in my novel.

I was waiting for someone to say that. :D

Ok here's my .02, although I've pretty much got the same points as everyone else.

Use it sparingly because like sex and gore too much will make the reader tune the story out, and if it is just put in for the sake of doing so that will definately turn them off too.
I've got a protag whom aside from the occasional "shit" or the rare "asshole" she keeps a reasonably civil tongue. But when she gets really, REALLY mad she's not above letting loose with with a stream of expletives that would send sailors running, and that's what makes it funny. But if she did that all the time it would just be par for course, and thus meaningless.
Also keep in mind you might not have to write out every curse a character says, at least depending on the context. For example...

Jane let loose a torrent of expletives that probably would have curled the wallpaper in her appartment.

Which could replace:

"Oh f**k all this stupid f**king bullsh** and the f**k with all you f**king f**kers!" Jane said.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Snipped...

Also keep in mind you might not have to write out every curse a character says, at least depending on the context. For example...

Jane let loose a torrent of expletives that probably would have curled the wallpaper in her appartment.

Which could replace:

"Oh f**k all this stupid f**king bullsh** and the f**k with all you f**king f**kers!" Jane said.


Good point. And I think the first line you made there actually has an effect that saying that last line just would not have. It gets the point across without going overkill on the cussing.

That, IMO, is a good, very artistic way of cussing without cussing.

[scarletpeaches]

But the first example is telling and the second is showing.

Plus, your and my idea of profanity might be different, so it's always best to show the reader what you mean by wallpaper-curling language.

[Shady Lane]

Shady's final word: Suck it up and write what the character needs.

[Tornadoboy]

Good point. And I think the first line you made there actually has an effect that saying that last line just would not have. It gets the point across without going overkill on the cussing.

That, IMO, is a good, very artistic way of cussing without cussing.

My FP gets off the hook more than once in this manner! :D

[reenkam]

Jane let loose a torrent of expletives that probably would have curled the wallpaper in her appartment.

Which could replace:

"Oh f**k all this stupid f**king bullsh** and the f**k with all you f**king f**kers!" Jane said.

Sometimes things like this will annoy me in novels, basically because when someone does curse nothing terrible happens...the wallpaper's just fine.

But if it's used right, and subtly, then I don't see a problem using such a replacement.

Though, I still say go for it if you wanna ;)

[Sean D. Schaffer]

But the first example is telling and the second is showing.

Plus, your and my idea of profanity might be different, so it's always best to show the reader what you mean by wallpaper-curling language.


I admit I would not use the last line that Tornadoboy quoted in my WIP, so maybe our versions of profanity indeed are different. For instance, when I was a kid, it was no biggie whatsoever among other kids to use the F-word constantly. But to our parents or to our teachers, using the word 'Dang it' was worthy of getting your mouth washed out with soap.

Basically with me, there's profanity and then there's overkill. I use the F-word in my entire WIP fewer times than in the last line Tornadoboy quoted. (I think I use it twice.) To me, the shock value dissipates as the word is used over and over and over and over and over and over and over and ... do you see what I'm saying? Like the 'over and over and' in my previous sentence, so the overuse of profanity can actually desensitize the reader to the word and make it less shocking -- and therefore, giving it less of an effect -- than if it's used once or twice throughout the novel.

You make a good point Scarlet. I appreciate your pointing that out to me.

:)

[Tornadoboy]

Sometimes things like this will annoy me in novels, basically because when someone does curse nothing terrible happens...the wallpaper's just fine.

But if it's used right, and subtly, then I don't see a problem using such a replacement.

Though, I still say go for it if you wanna ;)

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not above using explicit profanity either, and my FP WILL get to share some of her mastery of carnal verbiage with the reader. Although sometimes it can be a lot more tasteful or funnier being coy with what was said, kind of like Mr. Spock in Star Trek IV trying to describe the "more colorful metaphor" of present day Los Angeles.

[scarletpeaches]

And speaking of BTB, she used the f-word in one of her novels and far from adding power to the sentence, it seemed ridiculous. Her character just wouldn't say that. Even though her husband and children were dead. It just seemed like she'd said, "Hmm...what would someone say in this instance? I know - fuck!"

But then I've never been a fan of her dialogue; whether flowery or coarse it never rings true.

[reenkam]

I was just reading Stephenie Meyer's Twilight and found a good example of...well...good replacement

"You. . ." I gasped. I couldn't think of a bad enough word. It felt like the heat of my anger sould physically burn him, but he only seemed more amused.

It caught my eye since no actually word was used, but it came across perfectly fine.

[EriRae]

"That sucks" is conversation for conversation's sake, like "Hi" and "Have you met Nancy?," "Well, how do you do, Nancy, I'm Bob." It just sits there, it doesn't add to the situation. I'd rather see "Well, sh*t, that didn't work," than "That sucks."

I threw two of my pet peeves together in my last posting; didn't mean to confuse anyone.

[Shady Lane]

Crystal and Jake have been fighting fires together for years. Everywhere they go, they're tormented by unyielding conflagrations that leave them barely clinging to life. They've decided to retire in order to start their life together, and as they finally stand in the church together, their mouths poised to form the words, "I do," a cigarette in the back row ignites a an ornamental flower arrangement. Within seconds, the entire church is in flames. Smoke fills the building. Bridesmaids writhe in the flames. Jake watches the skin of the party guests melt into unsalvagable piles of scorched suits and carnations. He grabs Crystal's hand and they barely escape, and stand outside the church watching the wreckage that should have been there perfect wedding.

Crystal says, "That sucks."
--
Anything can speak volumes.

[mscelina]

Crystal and Jake have been fighting fires together for years. Everywhere they go, they're tormented by unyielding conflagrations that leave them barely clinging to life. They've decided to retire in order to start their life together, and as they finally stand in the church together, their mouths poised to form the words, "I do," a cigarette in the back row ignites a an ornamental flower arrangement. Within seconds, the entire church is in flames. Smoke fills the building. Bridesmaids writhe in the flames. Jake watches the skin of the party guests melt into unsalvagable piles of scorched suits and carnations. He grabs Crystal's hand and they barely escape, and stand outside the church watching the wreckage that should have been there perfect wedding.

Crystal says, "That sucks."
--

LMAO! Point well taken. One person's peeve is another person's treasure.

[Danger Jane]

I dunno, it would seem more realistic if Crystal said, "Shit."

I don't use Jesus in vain in my writing much, or in real life...maybe if I dropped a car on my foot or something. But hey, ever since my mother told me she'd rather hear me swear like a sailor than take the Lord's name in vain...well...

[Shady Lane]

It's not meant to be realistic, though...it's supposed to be striking. That was my point--proving that it can be striking and fresh.

[mscelina]

It's not meant to be realistic, though...it's supposed to be striking. That was my point--proving that it can be striking and fresh.

I found it such an understatement when compared to the irony of the situation that it got me to laugh--no small feat when I've been up for 20 hours. After all, they were on church grounds. "Shit" might not have been the most politically correct response.

I thought it was quite effective.

[Danger Jane]

Ah, Shady, it was only a joke. You definitely got your point across.

[Shady Lane]

Ah, Shady, it was only a joke. You definitely got your point across.

I can be humor-impaired. :D

[Danger Jane]

Aww it's okay. You know...jokes online...don't translate...typing...that whole thing.

[reenkam]

That's why there should be more emoticons in the world...

[Nakhlasmoke]

I have a character who is a software developer (exciting stuff!!!), and he swears and uses the lord's name in vain. His love interest is a dead WW1 WREN. She doesn't swear. Or she hasn't yet, at any rate.

As other people have said on this thread, write what's right for your character. Don't be scared of words; you're writers after all. And fuck is just another word.

[OmenSpirits.com]

Given the fact that I write characters in an urban environment, the casual usage of the "F'" bomb as it has so been phrased, is used consistantly, like the way you or I would use the word 'and'. It's used in this fashion to go towards the realism of those characters, the environment the grew up in, and the way they communicate with one another.

The distinction of the word is not made because within the rhythm of speech of the characters, and the context of its placement within the text, makes it necessary to engross the reader in a place that may be familiar, or may not, depending on one's social standing and where an individual had spent their formative years.

Too much could happen when applied too often & if it does not have an impact to the pacing of the prose. If it has no purpose in showing a character's personality or situation, then it is overly used.

Over doing is a distinction made by the writer for the situation he/she is writing and should not follow any outside rule.

Character dictates language.

[seun]

'I personally detest profanity. In my experience, folks who constantly spew the F, S, MF and C words are boors, cretins, thugs, or all three.'

Generalisation of the day?

Some of my characters swear because that's who they are and how they relate to each other. If the word is justified that way and fits the character, what's wrong with it?

[EriRae]

Crystal and Jake have been fighting fires together for years. Everywhere they go, they're tormented by unyielding conflagrations that leave them barely clinging to life. They've decided to retire in order to start their life together, and as they finally stand in the church together, their mouths poised to form the words, "I do," a cigarette in the back row ignites a an ornamental flower arrangement. Within seconds, the entire church is in flames. Smoke fills the building. Bridesmaids writhe in the flames. Jake watches the skin of the party guests melt into unsalvagable piles of scorched suits and carnations. He grabs Crystal's hand and they barely escape, and stand outside the church watching the wreckage that should have been there perfect wedding.

Crystal says, "That sucks."
--
Anything can speak volumes.

Got it loud and clear, Shady. That would suck. :flag:
I still cringe when I see it in a published novel, though.

[Elodie-Caroline]

My female MC swears like a trooper sometimes, it's part of who she is and where she comes from. My male MC hates anyone swearing, especially women. But as they both grow closer, he gets to overlook most of the swearing from her. In a couple of scenes she has to explain what the words mean; he's French and doesn't understand some of her words. Writing her explaining the words to him, and him getting to know the meanings, makes for some very funny scenes, at least, I laughed out loud as I was writing them :D
He even ends up using one of her less bad words when he's hurt, it makes him smile, he thinks of her.
My work is around 93,000 words long, there is:
F-ck 31 times
Bloody 21 "
Bollocks/bollocking 8 "
Bugger 18 "
bastard 20 "

98 naughty words out of 93,000 isn't too bad methinks :) I've also had a lot of ladies from different backgrounds read through this for me, none of them complained about the swearing.
Oh, I did also use the C-word in it once, during the first draft, it was used by the man who is after the female MC to murder her. But I had to take it out, it just didn't feel right, even though that word doesn't bother me in real life, strange eh?


Elodie

[reenkam]

F-ck 31 times
Bloody 21 "
Bollocks/bollocking 8 "
Bugger 18 "
bastard 20 "


What's funny is that in the US that'd count as 31, maybe 51. But the whole middle of the list means nothing here...well, we know what it means. But you can say it whereever you want and no one cares.

Maybe we could all use profanity unusually to the country we're writing in?!?! then we're safe :)

[spacejock2]

I kept my novels clean and they ended up in hundreds of school libraries. Throw in too much swearing and that market is closed to you.

[jedimaster107]

I'm glade someone asked this question. I was wondering about that myself. I have some curse words and I was worried about using Fuck in my story. I just checked and i only used it twice. It's only used by the psycho when he's yelling at the main character.


“Open this fucking door now!”
&
A wonderful life, a great career, a family. And you had to go and fuck me!”


I think the rewrite of the ending might have some more. :Shrug:

[scarletpeaches]

I kept my novels clean and they ended up in hundreds of school libraries. Throw in too much swearing and that market is closed to you.

Someone should tell Meg Rosoff then. Her novels are peppered with shits, fucks and bastards and she's only won the Carnegie Medal.

[Elodie-Caroline]

I don't count bloody and bugger as swearing myself, and nor do most Brits, however, you do have snobs in all areas of the world.
The other site I use is American, and we're not even allowed to say bitch on there! LOL. Most Americans on there don't even know what bollocks is, so we get away with that one not being censored, one of my most fave words too... One little word that can explain so much.


What's funny is that in the US that'd count as 31, maybe 51. But the whole middle of the list means nothing here...well, we know what it means. But you can say it whereever you want and no one cares.

Maybe we could all use profanity unusually to the country we're writing in?!?! then we're safe :)

[Raphee]

In my own life I do swear quite a bit, around friends I've known for years.

I dislike swearing in writing if it doesn't have a purpose.
I guess there are ways to temper it down. I have to do that on the revisions of my WIP.

[Ken Schneider]

And speaking of BTB, she used the f-word in one of her novels and far from adding power to the sentence, it seemed ridiculous. Her character just wouldn't say that.


Bolding mine.
Exactly.

If your church going grandmother dropped a iron pot on her foot she wouldn't start spewing profanity.

We are all aware of those who would use profanity, and those who wouldn't.



If using profanity in a novel, it should match the profile of the character. Having established/developed the character's personality will go a long way to allowing or not allowing profanity.

The writer should know.

As far as using profanity online, I have never seen an instance that warranted the use. I think online posters do it because they can. It serves no purpose except to make the poster look crude.

IMO.

[maestrowork]

Wow, it never ceases to amaze me how writers would still moralize what their characters would or would not say. Every time this conversation comes up, the moralization starts. And to categorically say those who swear are thugs, etc. -- such judgment is offensive all by itself.

The fact is very simple: people swear, whether in real life or in fiction.

But you don't have to read these books if they offend you, and you certainly don't have to write them.

Just as I don't read or write dungeon-and-dragon fantasies. Simply not my cup of tea. But I'll be darned to tell anyone not to write them, or read them for that matter. The world is a very large place, with a lot of people, and there's a place for everyone.

[Spiny Norman]

Exactly. I really agree with maestrowork on this one. I tend to write about boors, layabouts, and sort of scummy folk. I swear, but not as much as them. And I think that if their dialogue is true then I pretty much have to have them say, "What the f*ck?" rather than "What the rooty tooty frick on a stick?" If you want it to be true you can't start wincing at stuff.

Writing shouldn't be about you, it should be about the world. Just how I see it, at least.

[seun]

Once again, Ray has it right. It really is a case of:

The fact is very simple: people swear, whether in real life or in fiction.

But you don't have to read these books if they offend you, and you certainly don't have to write them

[NeuroFizz]

Pull the curse words from some of Elmore Leonard's gritty works and they become farses, at best--just as strange as Snow White responding to the kiss with, "What the fuck took you so long, asshole?"

Do you suppose Elmore is in the library?

Doing something so out-of-place is a standard technique of humor, and it cuts both ways. If an intended gritty story generates giggles from the reader, I'd say it probably has missed its mark.

[maestrowork]

"What the fuck took you so long, asshole?"

I think you've seen "Snow White and the Seven Studs" too many times.

[scarletpeaches]

What was Snow White's favourite soft drink?

7-Up!

Ba-doom TISH!

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week.

[Elodie-Caroline]

Well said! I swear, but I've never been in trouble with the police or anything like that in my life, I've never hurt anyone either. This is why I said about the snobs.
My novel was read by a woman who is really big into the church and very Godly, and she loved my book and she is one of the people who gave me the most highest praise about it.


Wow, it never ceases to amaze me how writers would still moralize what their characters would or would not say. Every time this conversation comes up, the moralization starts. And to categorically say those who swear are thugs, etc. -- such judgment is offensive all by itself.

The fact is very simple: people swear, whether in real life or in fiction.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Wow, it never ceases to amaze me how writers would still moralize what their characters would or would not say. Every time this conversation comes up, the moralization starts. And to categorically say those who swear are thugs, etc. -- such judgment is offensive all by itself.

It never ceases to amaze me, either.

It's like being told not to cuss because a lady is standing next to you, when that lady has been using worse language than yourself. This kind of judgmentalism really runs rampant, and I think it's highly offensive. It's one thing to say, "I won't do this because I'm offended by it". It's quite another to say, "I won't let you do this because I'm offended by it".

The fact is very simple: people swear, whether in real life or in fiction.That's right. And what do people do on average when someone else tries to control them? They become worse, and even more obnoxious, just to spite you. This is why moralization is so dangerous. If you don't like to cuss, don't cuss. But don't order other people not to cuss. That's not your place.

But you don't have to read these books if they offend you, and you certainly don't have to write them.Again, quite right. If you don't like a particular book, then there's no law saying you have to read it. It's kind of like some sites on the 'Net with offensive content. People get so upset by what they see when they visit those sites they try to have them shut down, rather than simply blocking them from their computer.

The thing is, YOU ARE NOT ANOTHER PERSON'S JUDGE. If a person wants to write something you're offended by, tough. They have the right to put to paper their ideas whether you are offended by them or no.

Just as I don't read or write dungeon-and-dragon fantasies. Simply not my cup of tea. But I'll be darned to tell anyone not to write them, or read them for that matter. The world is a very large place, with a lot of people, and there's a place for everyone.Exactly. I don't enjoy reading political thrillers, but I don't go around preaching against them. That's not my place. With more than 6 billion people on the Earth last time I heard, there is a lot of diversity of what people enjoy and do not enjoy. I am not the standard by which everyone else is measured. Neither are you.


Good post, Maestro. Good, common sense post.

:)

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I try to write the profanity the character would use. Not what I'd use. Not what a teenage boy would use. Just what the character would use.

[Elodie-Caroline]

I think anyone would only use profanity in their books that the characters would actually use. I don't mind the C-word, it doesn't bother me one little bit, but my female MC character doesn't ever say that.

[scarletpeaches]

And in reverse, Elodie-Caroline, I try not to use the C-word in real life. Just my quirk. I've only said it in anger once or twice in my life, usually relating to my 'mother' or Tony bLiar...but I wouldn't think twice about using it in a book if my character would say it. It's probably the strongest profanity I can think of; certainly more 'sweary' than the F-word to my mind.

[Elodie-Caroline]

Each to their own Nichola. A word is just a word to me, no words are any more important than any others; it's the context in which we say them that matters to me. I can laughingly call my sister a C-. I could call some woman I really disliked a slag and mean it much more horribly than calling my sister a C-.

[NicoleMD]

The only time I swear is when I'm reading my work to my critique group.

They're just words.

Nicole

[seun]

I said the dreaded C word last night when I smacked my toe against the table.

I hereby apologise to all who I offended. Honestly.

[Elodie-Caroline]

I do hope you put an f-ing in front of it to make it more meaningful! :D

I said the dreaded C word last night when I smacked my toe against the table.

I hereby apologise to all who I offended. Honestly.

[Atlantis]

I don't mind using swear words. I think using them too much can turn off readers, but like slang, can also be a realistic way of protraying a certain type of character from a place in time/location that is known for its unique way of speaking. For example, Australians have a very colourful language of slang and swear words that alot of people from other countries wouldn't understand. I had alot of fun making up unique swear words for the Greek Gods to use in my book. Instead of "See you in hell!" I used "See you in Tartarous!" and so on. Swear words can also be used as a form of comic relief in intense scenes. In one scene of my book, Poseidon is attacked by Zeus, who shoots lightning bolts at him, flings boulders and even uses his powers to throw cars at him. When the first car begins its long drop towards Zeus, Poseidon look up at the sky, and says simply "Oh shit." in a dumbstruck voice before raising his trident to defend himself. When used well, swear words are a good tool to increase tension or laughter.

[swvaughn]

"What the rooty tooty frick on a stick?"

Oh, I so need to have someone say this... :D

I'm also going to somehow work in having one of my characters say, "Don't fucking swear, goddamn it! It's rude!" I can do that.

Oh, yes. I can. :e2brows:

[janetbellinger]

I'd never use it in real life because it degrades women. I guess I might have a character in a novel write it if it was a person who thought women's sexual organs were profane.

And in reverse, Elodie-Caroline, I try not to use the C-word in real life. Just my quirk. I've only said it in anger once or twice in my life, usually relating to my 'mother' or Tony bLiar...but I wouldn't think twice about using it in a book if my character would say it. It's probably the strongest profanity I can think of; certainly more 'sweary' than the F-word to my mind.

[Spiny Norman]

I'd never use it in real life because it degrades women. I guess I might have a character in a novel write it if it was a person who thought women's sexual organs were profane.

There's an interesting section in Craig Ferguson's "Between the Bridge and the Water" in which an old-school Glasgow guy goes off on how Americans have ruined the C-word. He talks about how it used to be a word like "dumbass" or "idiot," to be used in a semi-friendly to aggressive situation, but eventually after overseas feminism became more prominent in the British Isles the word because increasingly sexualized and they were no longer able to casually use it. It became worse than the F-word.

I don't know if that's true, but I do notice that in certain English movies - Sexy Beast and Gangster No. 1, as well as a few others whose names I can't think of - the word is used fairly off-hand, whereas in America its use is regarded with the sort of horror used only at the sight of an orphanage in mid-detonation. An orphanage for the physically disabled.

Of course, as Scarlet Peaches is Scottish, my observation may be entirely moot. The point was how extremely subjective the entire idea is. What you may think degrades women may have nothing to do with women at all in another's use.

[Popeyesays]

Okay, I searched and didn't see a thread about this for the last month and a half, and my arse was too lazy to search further (It really is, it just walked off!)...

How much profanity is too much profanity in a novel? Is there an amount of profanity that an editor reading your full or partial would be shocked... or, is there never *too* much?

I tend to write a lot of military stuff and action stuff. Profanity increases as threat to life and limb increase, that generates a higher tolerance amongst soldiers, etc., for profanity in general use.

On the other hand profanity is notalways the issue. One gentleman in eighteenth century times could insult another mortally and never use a curse word.

It's a balance and context kind of thing.

Words are tools in the box, you use the one which does the work most efficiently--or hopefully you do.

regards,
Scott

[Sunny7L]

I don't think there's anything wrong with profanity, so long it's appropriate for the story and the audience. I haven't found much use for it but I refuse to place limitations on my art form.

I do agree that it's better if it's realistic and flows believably. I think readers/watchers appreciate it when someone says or does just what they think they'd do in a similar situation.

[Sunny7L]

Jane let loose a torrent of expletives that probably would have curled the wallpaper in her appartment.

Which could replace:

"Oh f**k all this stupid f**king bullsh** and the f**k with all you f**king f**kers!" Jane said.

Good point. And I think the first line you made there actually has an effect that saying that last line just would not have. It gets the point across without going overkill on the cussing.

That, IMO, is a good, very artistic way of cussing without cussing.

Plus, when you write it all out it just sounds corny. :-)

[Tornadoboy]

Plus, when you write it all out it just sounds corny. :-)

Although I've got to admit that later line would be pretty funny under certain circumstances, it's just sooooo ridiculously crude!

There's a online Shockwave cartoon series called "Retarded Animal Babies" that has a number of lines like that, although I probably shouldn't admit it too openly that I find it funny.

At one point a character starts a Ramstein-like rock group simply called "Fuck", and when someone asks for it's leader said character replies "Yes I am the fucking fucker, leader fucker of fuck! How can I fuck you today?"

Sorry that line always cracks me up! :ROFL:

[Spiny Norman]

The Stranger: There's just one thing, Dude.

The Dude: And what's that?

The Stranger: Do you have to use so many cuss words?

The Dude: What the fuck you talking about?

The Stranger:(gently scoffs) Okay, Dude. Have it your way.

[scarletpeaches]

I'd never use it in real life because it degrades women. I guess I might have a character in a novel write it if it was a person who thought women's sexual organs were profane.

I don't feel degraded at all if someone uses it. If someone calls me a cunt, it's not my vagina they're insulting; they're saying it's me they don't like.

I'd use it if I was angry enough without thinking I was degrading my sex; I just don't use it because I rarely get angry enough to do so. I just think there should be at least one word that's profane rather than used as often as punctuation.

I mean, I can call someone a dick and not feel I was insulting every man on the planet's penis. To me, swear words aren't related to genitals but to how much anger I want to express.

There's an interesting section in Craig Ferguson's "Between the Bridge and the Water" in which an old-school Glasgow guy goes off on how Americans have ruined the C-word. He talks about how it used to be a word like "dumbass" or "idiot," to be used in a semi-friendly to aggressive situation, but eventually after overseas feminism became more prominent in the British Isles the word because increasingly sexualized and they were no longer able to casually use it. It became worse than the F-word.

I don't know if that's true, but I do notice that in certain English movies - Sexy Beast and Gangster No. 1, as well as a few others whose names I can't think of - the word is used fairly off-hand, whereas in America its use is regarded with the sort of horror used only at the sight of an orphanage in mid-detonation. An orphanage for the physically disabled.

Of course, as Scarlet Peaches is Scottish, my observation may be entirely moot. The point was how extremely subjective the entire idea is. What you may think degrades women may have nothing to do with women at all in another's use.

It's used quite openly here; the objection I have is when swear words are used as punctuation - not even expressing anger or hatred, just used in place of commas or full stops. People here don't want to take a breath; they want to say the F- or C- word instead. It shows a lack of imagination when it's used this way rather than to express emotion.

If someone was angry at me and used the C-word, I wouldn't like it - not because of the word itself really, but because no-one wants to be hated or strongly disliked. I would find the emotion behind it offensive or hurtful, not the word itself.

[Spiny Norman]

It's used quite openly here; the objection I have is when swear words are used as punctuation - not even expressing anger or hatred, just used in place of commas or full stops. People here don't want to take a breath; they want to say the F- or C- word instead. It shows a lack of imagination when it's used this way rather than to express emotion.

If someone was angry at me and used the C-word, I wouldn't like it - not because of the word itself really, but because no-one wants to be hated or strongly disliked. I would find the emotion behind it offensive or hurtful, not the word itself.

Yep, that was kind of what I was going for. "Punctuation" is a good term for it. During my brief spell in Scotland the only dependable words I could glean from the thick accents were swears. I could only assume they were either very happy or very mad.

[scarletpeaches]

Or very illiterate. ;)

[Spiny Norman]

Very possible.

[Elodie-Caroline]

It's funny how some people are so judgmental. Some of us swear in certain circles, but we don't do it in front of everyone, we know the boundaries.
No one hardly ever sees me swear on here, and they also do not see me criticizing and belittling people just to make other people, especially their friends, laugh, unlike some do.

[Shady Lane]

I kept my novels clean and they ended up in hundreds of school libraries. Throw in too much swearing and that market is closed to you.

Or if you're lucky, you get banned. No better publicity.

[Shady Lane]

And in reverse, Elodie-Caroline, I try not to use the C-word in real life. Just my quirk. I've only said it in anger once or twice in my life, usually relating to my 'mother' or Tony bLiar...but I wouldn't think twice about using it in a book if my character would say it. It's probably the strongest profanity I can think of; certainly more 'sweary' than the F-word to my mind.


I've only used the c-word once in all my writing...my sixteen year old said it to the nurse who was trying to rationalize her after her baby died. It was "bitch" in the first draft...and didn't work nearly as well.

But obviously, like scarletpeaches further said, it's about the emotion behind the words. My best friend (a guy) calls me the c-word as a nickname. Coming from him in that context, it's affectionate.

[Elodie-Caroline]

I do believe it was I who first said on here about the context behind words that are used.

[Shady Lane]

I do believe it was I who first said on here about the context behind words that are used.

You're right, it was. My apologies. :)

[My-Immortal]

I finished watching Deadwood Season 1 on DVD the other day and the language in the show reminded me of this thread. There is an abundance of 'profanity' in that show--but it fits the characters/setting/etc. There was also an abundance of intelligent dialogue (IMO)--some of which included the profanity. Someone earlier mentioned the 'not swearing in front of a lady'....and I recalled a scene in the series where one of the men is swearing up a storm, and then turns to the woman standing next to him and says, 'pardon my French' and she says-giving him a look- 'I speak French.'

;)

Take care all-

[Elodie-Caroline]

No apologies needed ok :)

You're right, it was. My apologies. :)

[DeadlyAccurate]

And I'll bet a significant number of white collar types will come up with a doozy or two after hitting a thumb with a hammer while pounding down the nail pops in the hot tub deck.
A significant number of those white collar types will come up with a doozy or two in the meeting room. You'd be surprised how many college-educated business professionals use expletives at the office, and I'm not talking about saying them in anger either (nor do I mean the occasional "damn" or "hell." They say "fuck" and "shit" on a regular basis.)

Anyone who's read my stuff knows I have no problem with casual use of expletives. My character and her friends are professional criminals. The use of the word "fuck" is the least of her crimes. But I don't usually use expletives in excess in a sentence, because it can be hard to read. In one case where a character cusses a blue streak, I wrote

After a moment of stunned silence, he drew back and spewed a stream of invectives at me in a mixture of Spanish and English. I had no idea the word “cunt” could be used so creatively.
I didn't want to sit around thinking of creative cuss words that implemented the word "cunt." Besides, it lets you try to imagine what those creative expletives were, which is a lot more powerful than if I'd made them up.

[Spiny Norman]

Well, that's funny, and the law of funny is that, if funny, everything is a-okay. It is both arbitrary and inarguable.

I think the best use of the word was in The Sopranos in which one character advised another, "Don't get cunty."

What does that even mean?

[Haphazard]

It's never good to overuse such things, but the only place I really think it's a problem is in children's books.