High school education vs college ?

[writing diva05]

This question will sound stupid but I'm pretty much getting bummed out and am questioning my abilities.

Is it true some authors, successful ones at that, had no previous writing experience or college? I spent the day with a friend, a very successful one at that, who told me I may be wasting my time on trying to get my manuscript published by a legit publisher. He said I'd be better off with a pod and brought to my attention that I have no formal education other than high school and as he put it, 'you need more than that to make it, you could only find work at a fast food place without a high school diploma.' Just want to get an idea, how many people went to college to be a writer? Thanks

[vstrauss]

This person is a friend?

Maybe your manuscript isn't up to snuff, but if that's the case it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with your lack of a college degree.

Learning is always a good thing. But you don't need a degree to be a writer.

- Victoria

[SimonSays]

Diva -

You do not have to have a college education to be a good writer.

You do need to have a solid grasp of grammar and an innate ability to tell a story. You need a good understanding of character, plot structure, symbolism, climax, denoument etc. to write fiction. You should have a basic understanding of those concepts from your English classes in high school.

Did your friend who told you you could not get published read your book? or was the comment based solely on your level of education? If your friend has read your book, I'd ask for more specifics about what the problems and weaknesses are.

You can always take a fiction writing class or workshop to improve your skills.

[maestrowork]

Time to get a new friend, not a bachelor's degree.

Education is always a good thing -- more is always better than less. But to say you can't be a good writer because you don't have a college degree is plain ignorant.

[mr mistook]

Diva,

If you want my opinion that person is NOT your friend.


This guy's self esteem obviously hinges on the fact that he went to college. He'd never be able to live with himsef if you wrote and published a novel with no college. If you succeeded like that, it would threaten his fragile, yet precious sense of superiority and his whole world would come tumbling down.

DON'T LISTEN TO HIM!

He said I'd be better off with a pod

Screw a pod! Even terrible writers are better off WITHOUT a pot. He's trying to undermine your self esteem and railroad you into failure.

brought to my attention that I have no formal education other than high school and as he put it, 'you need more than that to make it,

Yes, that's true. You need a well written book with a good story, but nobody needs a diploma, much less a degree to accomplish this. All you need is literacy, perseverence, and enough sense to know good advice from bad.

Anyway, you've come to the right place. Stick around, kid!

[drgnlvrljh]

Wow, someone has some seriously low self-esteem. And I'm not talking about Diva. I'm talking about the so-called friend who just dashed her to bits.

Find better friends Diva. This moron is just going to drag you down, and that's not fair to you.

Sorry if I sound crass, here. But people who try to destroy other's dreams really get my goat. >:

You want to know something? I didn't even finish High School. I went and got my GED when I was 30. Took all the tests in one day, and passed with flying colours.

My fiance has a Bachelor's in Sociology, with minors in Asian Studies, and Eastern Philosophy, and is incredibly intelligent. Not to mention that he's this -><- far from his A+ Certification. He's a wonderful guy, and would never hurt a fly, but he doesn't have the patience for dummies. Do you think he and I would be together, and incredibly happy, if I couldn't match his intellect?

A degree doesn't make a writer. If it did, my fiance would be on the best-seller's list, and we'd be living good. But it's me...the one with jack for formal education, who's making a go of it. I know I'm good. I just need a little assistance in the polishing stages, and a good dose of courage.

Don't ever, ever, EVER let someone tell you that because you don't have some piece of paper you're not able to be a successful writer.

*steps down off her soap-box*

[Nateskate]

Your ability to express yourself is what counts, not your degree.

You can learn in college or through life experience. It's how you translate what you've learned onto paper that people will read.

[rtilryarms]

I have no college education.
My skills are learned from the ditches.
I applied for a job that I later found out had over 1,000 responses. I was the only one that interviewed without college. This job was a high profile fortune 500 middle management position with huge advancement.

I got the job. I interview very well and performed better. We both won and I went on to better things.

College is great but remember this:

A high percentage of great companies are run by College drop-outs or less who are smart enough to hire College graduates.

Ask Bill Gates.

This is applied to writing as well.

College is good but not THE ultimate criteria for success.

Mike

[writing diva05]

Thank you! No he never read the manuscript. I told him about the storyline, the characters etc...

Is there some kind of company (Editing?) that reads manuscripts and lets you know if it's good or needs more work?

I know it may sound like I don't believe in my work to have to ask these questions, but I do! I'm working on my next steps as some of you were nice enough to explain to me and my mistake was allowing negative thoughts to invade my space.

[SimonSays]

Wow, some of you are quick on the trigger to make judgements on Diva's friends without having the most salient fact - and that would be whether his comments were made after reading her ms or not.

I was one of the first ones to say that a college degree was not necessary to be a writer - I stand by that. But I also know that a more than basic grasp of grammar and drama are necessary.

If her friend read her ms and made that statement, then perhaps some formal education - classes, whatever might be in order.

To say this person is not a friend or has self-esteem issues is an unfair - not to mention judgemental - thing to say. You are basically doing what you seem to think he did - making judgements with almost no factual information whatsoever.

Pots meet kettle.

[maestrowork]

Well, he didn't read the ms and made that comment. So I stand by my comment.

Her friend is a louse, whether he has read her ms or not. Of course I'm only basing my judgment on what she told us, since I can't verify everything with the "friend."

But instead of telling her to take some classes or find a mentor -- which a true friend would do -- he told her she should just go POD (bad advice to begin with) simply because she doesn't have a college degree. Such is not a friend, IMHO, whether he's read the ms or not.

From her post, I gather she can actually write and she seems very intelligent. She doesn't deserve a remark like that from a "friend."

[Jamesaritchie]

All things being equal, I think a college education is immensely valuable, and it is easier to become a writer with a degree than without one.

This said, I've done it both ways. I was a high school drop out when I wrote and sold my first few short stories and my first novel. So it absolutely can be done without a degree.

But then I decided I should give college a try, and I learned more about writing and about literature during my first six months at college than I had in the rest of my life put together.

College doesn't make anyone a writer, but college doesn't make anyone a doctor or a lawyer or a mathematician, either.
All college does is put a person in an environment where he is surrounded by both knowledge in book and computer form that is hard to find elsewhere, and in an environment where he's surrounded by knowledgeable people highly intelligent, highly knowledgeable people who share his interests. It's then up to the person to take advanatge of all the opportunity college presents.

It's easy to say a person can learn as much without going to college, and it's certainly possible, but unlikely. Very few have the discipline to read and study as much when it isn't a requirement, and it's very difficult to surround yourself with the same kind of learning environment and people when trying to do it all on your own.

So, I think it's much better to go to college than to not go. I think that however well one writes, however successful one is without college, college will still help tremendously, and just about anyone will climb higher with college than without. And most successful writers, most by far, do have a degree, so if college is in any way possible, then you should go.

This said, your friend is simply wrong. Unlike most professions, writing fiction doesn't demand a degree, it just demands the talent, the skill, the dedication, and the discipline required to write well. There are writers without degress each and every year who sell to major publishers.

Writing is a matter of reading much, and writing often. It's having the talent and acquiring the skill through much practice. I think it's faster and easier with college, and I think many find problems with the dedication and discipline without college as a stabalizing factor where reading and writing and studying widely is a requirement, but it's certainly possible.

You just have to want it bad enough to be willing to do the reading, the studying, the learning, and the work without classmates and professors to help.

[mr mistook]

To say this person is not a friend or has self-esteem issues is an unfair - not to mention judgemental - thing to say. You are basically doing what you seem to think he did - making judgements with almost no factual information whatsoever.

I had enough facts for my diagnosis. We've got a college grad assuring somebody that they will never succeed, and may as well not try, and worse, directing them to pod the manuscript - all because the 'friend' doesn't have a degree.

Seriously now... what possible motive?

[sc211]

If you want to write literature, as with The New Yorker, or work in publishing or journalism, then yeah, college is a great advantage.

But if you just want to write well, and read great works that resonate with you, then find where your passion is, what books you enjoy the most, and go to those author's websites and find where they learned and how they do their research.

All the information is there. I did it all before the internet, and you can, too. There's a great lineage there that you can discover on your own, such as how James Herriot learned from reading Conan Doyle and Conan Doyle learned from reading Bret Harte.

Louis L'Amour also learned from Conan Doyle, and he dropped out of high school because "School was interfering with my education." As he worked in the merchant marine and rode railroad cars, he read everything he could put his hands on. Same with Jack London, self-taught all the way.

The best thing about college is the camaraderie and being exposed to books, music, and cultures that you wouldn't ordinarily know. But you can save yourself so much money and time by getting an apartment in a college city or travelling and so on. Then you'd actually have something to write about than your experience in slogging through term papers on “Industrialism in 19th Century Novels.”

So yeah, many writers have gone to college, of course. But many of those, like John Grisham, Conan Doyle, Keats, and recent Nebula winner Elizabeth Moon, studied law or medicine or science. There's also many writers who went to college and then dropped out, including Anne Lamott, August Wilson, Cormac McCarthy, Gordon Parks, John Muir, Mark Twain, Richard Bach, Sam Shepard, Tom Stoppard, Walt Whitman, and Woody Allen.

To sum up, it all comes down to applying yourself. Focus and discipline. You can do that in college or on your own, but in the end that's the major determining factor of whether you'll succeed in what you start.


The ultimate goal of the educational system is to shift the individual the burden of pursuing his own education.
- John Gardner

No university exists that can provide an education. What a university can provide is an outline, to give direction and guidance. The rest one has to do for oneself.
- Louis L'Amour

I don’t think a college degree is necessary to become a good writer. I’m not even certain it’s an advantage. College probably won’t hurt you – if you don’t take it too seriously. But far more important, I believe, is broad general experience: living as active a life as possible, meeting all ranks of people, plenty of travel, trying your hand at various kinds of work, keeping your eyes, ears, and mind open, remembering what you observe, reading plenty of good books, and writing every day – simply writing.
- Edward Abbey

[James D Macdonald]

One of the best editors I know, currently working in New York at a major publisher, doesn't even have a high school diploma.

It isn't what piece of paper you have -- it's what you can do.




I've got a pretty cranky rant about all this, but not for right now.

[zerohour21]

I'm in college right now, and about the only writing class I've ever taken was Writing 100 back in the Fall 2000 semester, and that was for writing essays, which is pretty different from writing stories. Even writing a reflective essay on something that happened or that I experienced in life wasn't all that helpful because it had to be me reflecting on something in the past, whereas when I'm writing the stories, I want to write them in such a way that as you're reading them, it seems like it's all happening right now (how successful I am at that, I don't know ,but that's what I go for usually). Anyway, I digress. College may help, or you can figure out how you want to tell stories your own way.

As for the advice on vanity press publications, well, I don't know; maybe your friend meant well and he just didn't know that vanity press publishers were a really bad idea. Who knows? Either way, don't do it, okay? From what I've heard on the issue, they definitely won't make you happy.

Furthermore, the only time you should consider someone's advice when it comes to your stories is if the person has actually READ the stories.

[Euan Harvey]

JamesARitchie has said it right: college will help, but it's not necessary. Attending college exposes people to new ideas and new influences that in many ways (IMHO) are more important than the subjects they formally study.

But to be honest, all the really important things I've learned, I learned after college. But maybe that's just me...

[James D Macdonald]

Y'know, I see an awful lot of half-baked self-publishing and vanity publishing schemes.

An awful lot of the time, I look at 'em and I find that they were founded by a successful, happy, healthy, well-to-do businessman. So why is this SHHWTDB starting his own publishing company? Because he's trying to publish his own manuscript, and he wants others to join him in his folly.

Why's he need to self-publish? Because he's written a book and it's been rejected from Hell to breakfast. Could it be that the manuscript isn't very good? No! It can only be that publishing is broken beyond repair, so the SHHWTDB will fix it by using the Power of the Internet and the Miracle of Print on Demand to make wonderful books out of manuscripts that those stuck-up snooty editors in New York don't even read (proof they don't even read 'em? If they read them, they'd love them, just like their authors do).

Some of those start-up POD publishers do convince others to go with them. Some of them go out of business within a year. Some of them turn into scammers.

The thing that they don't realize, the reality that they've come across, is that for the first time the amount of money they have in the bank, the diplomas they have on the wall, the kind of car they drive, the country club they belong to, their name, their father's friends -- none of that matters. All that matters is the black marks on the white page. It's a dreadful thing for those guys to fail. For many of them its the first time they ever did.

You want to get published? Tell an entertaining story. If you can do that, you've got it licked. If you can't, being a PhD won't help you.

[Jamesaritchie]

As I said, I do think college can help, if you take the right courses, and if the college experience instills the dedication and discipline and ability to learn how to learn, but the best thing about a college degree is undoubtedly the simple fact that no matter how disciplined and dedicated one is, writing simply may not work out. Or even if it does, it can take many years, and may never make one a pile of money.

Not only can college help with writing, but perhaps more important, any degree can allow a writer to find a much better job. Keeping the wolf away from the door can be difficult for new, or even experienced, selling writers, and a college degree makes a great wolf repellent.

Rightly or wrongly, a college degree is the ticket you need to ride the train at most businesses. And again rightly or wrongly, an MFA just impresses the hell out of many editors and many publishers. I, too, have known a couple of editors who had little or no formal education, but this isn't the norm by any stretch of the imagination. Writing aside, getting a job inside publishing is one heck of a lot easier if you have a degree in something, and an MFA can land you a job in pubishing quickly. So can a business degree, for that matter.

Landing a job inside publishing without a degree is simply not easy, or even realistic these days. Landing a good job anywhere doing anything is immensely more difficult without some sort of degree.

Being a writer is a fine thing, but it's not a wise profession to bet your future on. We live in an age where certification is often more important than actual knowledge, and it's only wise to have a backup play. The portrait of the starving artist may be romantic, but it's no fun when you're actually living it.

There are always exceptions, but just run down the bestseller list top to bottom, pick any dozen writers at random you consider to be successful, and odds are nearly all will have degrees. The numbers are overwhelming. It's just not wise to count yourself as an exception until you prove you are one, and by that time it's likely to be too late.

College won't make a person a writer, but neither will lack of college, and college will darned sure make the road a writer travels a heck of a lot smoother and more pleasant until the time comes when writing starts paying off. I believe anyone who has a dream should follow it, but there's no sane reason to follow it in misery or poverty.

As for vanity and self-publishing, as far as I'm concerned that's just a way of assuring failure before you even get started.

[katdad]

You certainly don't need a college degree to become a successful writer.

You do however need the equivalent of a rigorous college education, even it's gained by personal study.

This means the ability to write mechanically correct manuscripts, without misspellings or grammatical errors.

It also means that you need to have a wide knowledge of the world around you, including literature, classics, history, government, science, and similar.

Whether you gain this in college or in the school of life is not important. But you must be on the ball.

[Gala]

If I had my way, every writer would spend at least a month living in a third-world country, a couple weeks seeing art and history in Europe, and a week volunteering in a hospice. If they are not American, I offer them a month in the U.S. or other country of their choice.

College ed. is a way. Not the way.

Education of any kind is never a waste of time.

People often ask me what writing courses to take, and what books to read. I ask their interests and talents and go from there. A degree is no panacea.

We all know teachers of the "those that can't do, teach" ilk. God knows I've had a few music teachers like that. And I know they were of that ild because they told me.

A writer must master the tools of his trade. Do what it takes, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[Writing Again]

I agree with a lot of things said here, but I agree most with Jamesaritchie, katdad, and Gala.

I am as uneducated as you can get; flunked every grade I ever took all the way up to the sixth; I have been published, no questions asked except was the ms good enough. Unfortunately I never made a best seller list. A fifteen year old girl did though, S. E. Hinton, with her novel "The Outsiders."

Raising a family and supporting it consumed more and more of my time until my writing went out the window. My handle is "Writing Again" because for the past ten years I did no writing at all. The ten years prior to that my writing was so sporadic it amounted to less than a hobby. If you don't have an education supporting yourself, let alone a family, can become a time consuming, physically tiring, emotionally exhausting task.

Now many of the jobs I held, including the one I hold now, you cannot get without a high school diploma. Why? Just because people want to make life difficult and want people to conform. There is no reason in the world why an adult American cannery worker should be required to have a high school diploma in order to sort fruit or clean the floor -- when the same job is being done in foreign countries by children who should be in school instead of working.

On the other hand I work alongside people with college degrees who could not find a job in their fields. Many of them earn less than I do because I operate specialized equipment. But that is not the real downside. The real downside is that the company no longer hires people who are “over qualified” and you can no longer lie successfully about your qualifications: The computer will catch you.

What does this mean for you?

As a writer nothing. How far you advance will depend entirely on your dedication, skill, luck, your willingness to continue learning your entire life, and if you are married your spousal support. If you don't have the latter it does not matter how much love is there your writing will suffer, believe me.

In the rest of your life if you can get an education it is your best bet: You still might lose but the deck is stacked in the favor of education.

Keep in mind Robert Frost:

It takes all sorts of in- and outdoor schooling
To get adapted to my kind of fooling.

And:

Samuel Clemens, aka Mark Twain (1835-1910)

The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.

I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.

[drgnlvrljh]

SimonSays, I stand by my statement, the guy is a louse. Diva stated he never read the manuscript, -and- he tried to encourage her to POD. That doesn't sound like an encouraging friend, IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from anti-higher education. If I'd had the money, I would have gone on to college (and I still intend to, even though I'm in my 40's). But a college education does not a writer make. Talent and perserverence, and an ability to keep at it, is what makes a writer (amoung a gazillion other things). No, a college education won't hurt. But it's not the Holy Grail, either.

[drgnlvrljh]

If I had my way, every writer would spend at least a month living in a third-world country, a couple weeks seeing art and history in Europe, and a week volunteering in a hospice. If they are not American, I offer them a month in the U.S. or other country of their choice.

Exactly!

Life experience is going to go further in making a good writer, than a pile of books.

Again, going to college is not a bad thing. But if you go to college to make yourself a better writer, don't take writing classes. Take philosophy, the sciences, history, arts, etc. Writing education can be gained much more cheaply than college, in workshops, places like here, and anywhere you can get good feedback. Observe life around you. Participate in life, and you'll get an awesome education in writing.

[PixelFish]

Writing is kind of like visual art--proof is in the pudding, or for the artist, the portfolio. As an artist, having a degree is a bonus, a little something extra to help you nail down the job you want. But a degree does nada if your portfolio can't cut it. For the writer, the trick is how well can you tell a story?

[Stace001]

I agree with PixelFish. If you can tell a great story, without a University degree, then great. If a degree helped you write a better story, then good on you. I don't believe you need a degree to write a great story, just a wonderful imagination and a passion for writing.

[sqrrll]

I have a high school, college, and Masters degree in Finance. I do take education seriously. The CFA is up next for me. But, none of these degrees help me write. They help pay the bills, mind you, but not to write.

God gave me a gift, a talent, and it isn't something I was taught. You either can write or you can't. A diploma won't decide that for you.

However, education doesn't hurt and can give you some extra life experience that transfers over into your writing. For example, In a college class (an elective) I learned a lot about myself and developed a writing style I enjoyed. So, school can be helpful. Also, it is something to fall back on if you don't find success in the very difficult business of writing.

Don't let one opinion get you down. If you write, it probably means you enjoy it. if you enjoy it, you're probably good at it. No one enjoys doing things when they stink.

My advice is to keep writing and writing and writing...then wirte some more. We all like it or we wouldn't be on this board. Also, share your work. I'll bet you get some positive feedback that will restore confidence.

[maestrowork]

I have a high school, college, and Masters degree in Finance.

But I bet that comes in handy in terms of your analytical and organizational skills, which can be very useful in writing.

Not everything we learn in our education directly affects our writing, but it helps develop us as people. We as writers are people first (and we must understand people to write fiction). I think education is very important.

That said, we can get education anywhere, not necessarily in college. We can get education on the street if we want. Sometimes it's the best education we can ever get. The bottomline is, we must keep on learning and sharpening our skills in all areas (the actual language skills, observational skills, analytical skills, etc. etc.) If it's a psychology class we take in college, great! If we learn these skills by being a gangster on the street of New York, great! The keyword here is "learn."

You definitely don't need a college degree to learn.

[writing diva05]

Well, although I do believe in my manuscript, I'm going to go over it one more time rechecking spelling etc..

I spent quite a bit of time on it (years), and found it easy to write with the exception of a couple of obstacles. Some of life's experiences, fears, hopes, dreams and wishes are in almost every paragraph and the characters almost come to life. Maybe it's just for me, but I will take all advice on this board and today am purchasing some material and shoot high as suggested. And why not!

Again I offered my friend the chance to read a couple of chapters but he declined the invitation. I always took his advice to heart, but this time, he's wrong and I told him so yesterday. He said I'm setting myself up for failure. Maybe so, maybe not. If I'm rejected, I'll keep trying. I'm glad I posted the question, all the replies helped me in one way or another.

He may have degree's coming out of his ears, but I'm the one he borrows money from when he's 'low on funds'. ME! The one with only a high school education. So, I'll go over the manuscript one last time and then work on the synopsis, query and keep my fingers crossed. NB

[Writing Again]

He said I'm setting myself up for failure.

Of course you are. Writing is basically a crap shoot. Even skill and talent may not save you.

But wait a minute:

I know a lot of college grads who are not doing as well as I. The ones who are -- Are not working in the fields where they have degrees.

Which means that going to college is also a crap shoot and even the successes are failures in the fields they chose: In other words going to college is setting yourself up for failure.

What we have here is not wise advice: What we have here is a person who discovered that nothing in life turns out the way you expect it too: Now this person is afraid to put themselves out there and take a risk and they are trying to pass that fear on to you.

Don't concern yourself with the probability of failure, instead position yourself for the possibility of success, and be ready to take advantage of opportunities outside your goals.

I knew a guy who got a job writing ad copy based on skills he'd developed while failing to sell short stories. At a starting wage of $90,000 he is a failure you can admire. The last I heard of him he was writing a book telling how to get a job in advertising.

[SimonSays]

Maestro:
"Well, he didn't read the ms and made that comment. So I stand by my comment."

But that's exactly the point, Maestro. You made the comment before you knew if he had or had not read the ms. You jumped to a conclusion and told Diva she needs a new friend. You know nothing about this friend or their relationship or what he may or may not know about her or how they communicate with one another. You jumped to a conclusion - just as her friend apparently did. And just because the facts that were eventually revealed leaned in your direction - it doesn't make it any less hypocritical on your part.

As for your comment that "From her post, I gather she can actually write" once again - a large leap on your part. She posted clearly and communicated well - as anyone with a 10th grade education can - but to make the leap the "she can write" based on that - as in write a story - as in write fiction - is a ludicrous jump to make.

I'm not saying that she can or she can't. I have no idea. And that's the point - there was nothing in her posts - to lead one to conclude "Ah.... now there's a writer!"

I agreed that you don't necessarily need a college diploma to be a writer. And I think Diva should continue pursuing her writing.

But heaping unjustified praise on someone is just as irresponsible as turning someone away from their goals because of their level of education.

[maestrowork]

I go a lot by my instinct. And so far my instinct is correct.

No matter, I stand by my conclusion. Her friend is a louse. Diva can write at least coherently. I don't know if she's a good novelist, but I do know she can write a decent sentence. And as I said already, I think education is important, but not necessary to get published.

Was I too quick to make a conclusion? Probably. Was my conclusion wrong? Prove me wrong, then.

To me, a friend who tells you "you CAN'T because ____" is not a true friend. That's my experience and my view of friendship. A true friend would say, "You're not quite there yet. But I'll help you. I think you need more classes, and perhaps a mentor." A friend would not say, "You'll never get published. Not with a college degree. Go POD."

I based my judgment on what Diva told us. And my instinct was right.

So maybe, Simon, you have said the same thing to a friend before? And that's why you take offense?

What do you say about that friend now, considering Diva is telling the truth? Are you still on the friend's side?


p.s. I said:
Time to get a new friend, not a bachelor's degree.

You still need to understand the art of "sarcasm."

[Crusader]

Better to label the action or behaviour, not the person. Perhaps I stand by the conclusion that her friend's response was lousy would suit the case more accurately and tactfully.

[maestrowork]

Better to label the action or behaviour, not the person. Perhaps I stand by the conclusion that her friend's response was lousy would suit the case more accurately and tactfully.

I'll buy that, and stand corrected: Diva's friend's response was lousy. I'll also add that she should demand an apology.

[SimonSays]

I don't know enough about Diva's friend to make a judgement one way or another.

But I do know that life is full of shades of gray.

I once met two brothers - and brother 1 was always telling brother 2 that he couldn't do anything, he shouldn't even try.

At first I though it was sibling rivalry of the worst kind, but soon discovered it was sibling love of the best kind. Seems brother #2 had no self-confidence. You could encourage and praise him 24/7 but he still didn't trust himself to succeed. However, if you challenged him, told him he couldn't do something - he'd move hell and highwater to prove you wrong. He couldn't resist a dare.

Obviously his brother knew him better than me. Knew what was needed to motivate this guy. And it worked - the guy's a partner at one of the most prestigious law firms in Chicago.

And for all you know, Diva's friend may have read other things she wrote - might have made his judgements based on that. Once again, you don't know - that's my point. You don't know Diva and you don't know her friend.

As for your snide comment regarding what I would or wouldn't say to a friend. You don't know me, either Maestro - although I'm not surprised you jumped to conclusions there as well.

I was commenting on the hypocrisy, Maestro. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for what makes or doesn't make a true friend - I'd rather have friends that tell me the truth (painful or not) rather than tell me what I want to hear. But that's just me.

[Crusader]

@maestrowork:

i find it quite commendable that you are willing to revise your statements like that. Good show.


@SimonSays:
I don't know enough about Diva's friend to make a judgement one way or another.

While i appreciate and agree with your effort to advise others not to judge people rashly or with limited information, i also find the comment above to be a very odd stance, considering that you seem to feel secure enough to judge maestrowork's comments.

For me, as long as a judgement is stating a provisional, open-ended opinion about an object or an abstract, and as long as the person making the judgement/opinion is doing so in good faith, i.e. calling it like they see it, i can't see any harm committed.

[maestrowork]

So you just call me a hypocrite? How so? Now who is snide?

And what about you? You keep giving her friend excuses even though you, too, do not know anything about Diva and her friend. You are now making the assumption that Diva IS in fact a bad writer and that her friend is right, even without reading her ms. That he's making an assumption that she can never succeed because he has read something she wrote before? And that's what a good friend would do? Wow.

Or are you not? Are you just saying, you don't know either.

Well, I'll buy that. We all don't know. So let's all get out of Diva's business and let her deal with her own problems.

Agree?

What do you say, Diva? Are we all talking out of our asses?

[SimonSays]

Yes, Maestro - I was saying that I don't know either. And because I don't know, I will not cast aspersions on someone else's character.

I wasn't giving her friend excuses - I was pointing out possiblilties - because we don't know and because life is full of shades of grey.

There was an interesting thread on another site a couple weeks ago when a writer posted something about her agent. Everyone immediately started attacking the agent, until someone pointed out that based on the facts posted by the writer - it was the writer, not the agent who was in the wrong. I'm not saying it's the same situation here - I'm just saying that it made me very cognizant of the fact that it is wrong to knee-jerk attack someone that something is posted about, merely because it is the position of the person who posted.

Her friend may very well be an insenstive clod - but until I meet said clod or have more evidentiary evidence, I will not make that assumption.

And I agree - Diva's relationship with her friend is her business, not ours.

[XThe NavigatorX]

I've found my college experience to be a double-edged sword.

It wasn't until college that I learned about grammar and how to write well.

I also majored in creative writing, and the workshops helped me more than probably anything else.

HOWEVER

In my experience, the creative writing program at certain colleges can hurt some writer's careers. There's a great disdain for commerical writing/publishing by many professors, and the emphasis on "literary" style is overwhelming. Learning from such people was definitely valuable, but sometimes I felt like I was showing up to orchestra practice with an electric guitar. I know more than one writer who wouldn't naturally fall into the literary style that has completely given up on writing because of the college experience.

[writing diva05]

I'm sorry I started something here. Not my intention to have people bickering.

First, my friend is a CPA/financial advisor, he's never read any of my work. He simply likes to hear about it, the characters, plots etc...

Second, I have a high school education. After I graduated high school I worked for the family shipping business in Greece. Nothing exciting, small company. I came back to the USA and landed a job, thanks to my aunt at the Shore-man's Union in Manhattan as an assistant to the president's secretary. Within a year I found myself working only on contracts and dealing with disputes.

It took hard work, long hours and dedication, and I finally found myself in line assisting the major negotiators dealing with contracts and strikes. Three years later, I was offered a position with another union dealing with thousands of members and became one of three major contract negotiators, and was the first woman on that team in that union. I dealt with a variety of problems/people and successfully moved mountains and am very proud of myself and I did it all without a college degree. I was able to read, write, communicate and held my own dealing with many impressive company owners with much higher education than I could imagine and I won every time.

That was then, this is now. That has nothing to do with writing a manuscript and yes, I am unsure of myself at times. Especially when someone I look up to gives me the thumbs down. I'm just trying to find out where I go next and how I go about it. I am a little down on myself for not hitting the college scene, but I did pretty good in one avenue in my life without it, I just hope I will do just as good or better in this avenue.

I'm sorry for the length of this post and again, I thank everyone for your input. Nicoletta

[ChunkyC]

I have only a high school diploma (I'm sure my parents believed it was forged). I have to agree with the general consensus here, that college can be good, but is far from necessary. What annoyed me about the 'friend's' original comments as relayed to us by Diva, was the intimation that you can't get published without a college degree. That's just horsesh*t.

He said I'm setting myself up for failure.
To me, this comes across as "Better to have never tried, than to have tried and failed."

More horsesh*t. Not the way I'd want to live my life, thank you very much. Diva, nobody ever got a manuscript published by not submitting it. Go for it.

[Stace001]

As you said, 'I'll go over the manuscript one last time and then work on the synopsis.' Good advice, and good for you for standing up for your work and your beliefs. You have my best wishes.

[Jamesaritchie]

If I had my way, every writer would spend at least a month living in a third-world country, a couple weeks seeing art and history in Europe, and a week volunteering in a hospice. If they are not American, I offer them a month in the U.S. or other country of their choice.

I think experience is a wonderful thing for any writer, but while experience gives a writer more to write about, it doesn't help one write better. What to write about, and knowing how to write about it, are two very different things.

[Jamesaritchie]

Life experience is going to go further in making a good writer, than a pile of books.

Again, going to college is not a bad thing. But if you go to college to make yourself a better writer, don't take writing classes. Take philosophy, the sciences, history, arts, etc. Writing education can be gained much more cheaply than college, in workshops, places like here,

I don't think so. Life experience is wonderful, and does give the writer something to write about, but it doesn't have anything to do with knowing how to write. Nor will science, history, or art classes help at all with how to write. All such things are good for writers, but none of them will help anyone learn how to write, or teach anyone what good writing is.

Workshops, seminars, forums and the like are simply no substitute at all for the things you can learn about writing, about how to actually write, and what good writing is, in college. It's simply two completely different worlds. There's simply no comparison.

Whether you go to college or not, a pile of books, together with much writing, is the only way to learn how to write. Nothing, not even college itself, does as much good as a massive pile of books.

Good writers either get a college education in a formal way, or they give themselves one without the formality. While a college education is certainly not a requirement, the equivalent knowledge pretty much is. I believe writers should study everything possible, be it science, art, history, economics, medicine, whatever, but all this is probably going to be wasted unless the writer also studies writing and literature. Studying everything is good, but studying your own discipline is essential, so in college or out, you're still going to need that same pile of books.

And in college or out, systematic study is the only way to assure there are no missing pieces of the puzzle. Systematic study that ensures the writer studies everything required is probably the biggest single benefit of college. Hit and miss study, or only studying areas that hold a deep interest, just doesn't work very well in any profession, but especially in writng.

College doesn't teach anyting that can't be learned without college, but it teaches it faster, in a better environment, and has failsafes in place to make sure the student does study and learn in all the needed areas. The real question isn't whether or not a wannabe writer can learn everything needed without college, of course he can, the real question is will he learn everything needed without college. Not can he, but will he? Too often the answer is no.

Of course, as I said, the best reason to go to college is because counting on writing to keep the wolf away from the door simply isn't very realistic. Darned few writers make enough money from writing to matter, and only a handfull make any real money from fiction. About 90% of wannabe writers will never sell anything, and even most who do sell will be lucky to earn enough money to take their family out to dinner once a week. These are poor odds to bet your future on.

[Crusader]

ChunkyC said:
To me, this comes across as "Better to have never tried, than to have tried and failed."

Tricky. Might depend on the failure in question. Let's see...

-If the odds imply i will fail at something i don't really care about, avoidance might save me the mild annoyance of finding out.

-If the odds imply i will fail at something i truly care for, avoidance might protect me from being eviscerated.

Either way, it seems to boil down to whether the person thinks being safe from pain is a fair trade for the lost chance at success.

And from that angle, i'd venture to say it might be a good deal in the first case, since i wouldn't really care about succeeding anyway--so, i don't lose much by chickening out.

But the second case... that's not so cut-and-dried. Seems like i actually wouldn't win either way in that trade, 'cos while running away would spare me the short-term pain of failing, i would still be at the mercy of a long-term pain; the pain of losing my shot to triumph in the endeavour i cared about.

So there it is: to suffer the regret of having swung and missed the big pitch, versus suffering the regret of never having swung at all... which one is more bearable over a lifetime?

[drmelvinblair]

I agree with Maestro, and not merely because of his insightful moniker!

Regardless of level of education, you need to be considering the motives of your "friend". If, in his/her opine, they are "just saving you from pain down the road", remember that Job's friends were thinking "of his good welfare" as well.

Life is a skill you learn one heartache at a time.

Writing is a skill you learn one word at a time.
You can learn many different ways: one is in school.

As for choosing friends? Well, that'll require quite a skill, indeed....

[SimonSays]

I think it is quite presumptuous for anyone to suggest to anybody else that they should re-evaluate a personal relationship based on a sentence or two posted on a message board such as this.

People are complicated, relationships are complicated. It would be inadvisable for even a mental health professional or relationship counselor to give such advise with the meager amount of information provided by Diva.

She was not asking for opinions on her friendship, she was asking for opinions on what level of education was necessary. People took it upon themselves to make judgements about her friend and his motivation. Even if he is an education snob, that does not necessarily make him a bad person or a bad friend.

And a true friend is one that accepts someone despite their flaws. We all have them, even you.

[mr mistook]

College only prepares you to enter a world of other college graduates. Everybody with a bachelors or a masters degree has the same idea of what in the universe is important. If you've read "The Great Gatsby" then supposedly you know Fitzgerald. If you've read "1984" supposedly, you know Orwell.

College isn't as much about 'learning' as it is about 'assimilating' into the higher eschelons of a predigested culture.

How many things have I needed to research for my current WIP? Martial Arts, Firearms, The underside of architecture - including fire escapes, stink pipes, garbage collection, and street-side foliage. I need to know the workings of native american mythology, with regard to geography. I need to understand the pop culture of 1994. I need a hell of a lot of other insights that simply aren't taught in college.

Maybe the discipline of research is taught in college, but anybody with a question and a little drive can learn to research. In my mind, we do our best work when (to be blatantly metaphsysical) the 'assignment' comes from within.

You can always blow off a class, or bluff your way past an exam, but you can't escape your own passion so easily.

In the biggest of pictures, the novel is just a lot of inky scrawl on white paper - and again, it is one human using language to get across something meaningful to the rest of his/her kind.

If there's one benefit to college, that I can think of... a little time in college will tell you how to speak to these people without triggering too many of their automatic-clutch mechanisms.

[Euan Harvey]

College isn't as much about 'learning' as it is about 'assimilating' into the higher eschelons of a predigested culture.
Shhh! That's my PhD thesis!
College only prepares you to enter a world of other college graduates.
That depends entirely on how you approach it.
Good writers either get a college education in a formal way, or they give themselves one without the formality.
Right on. It doesn't really matter where you get the education from*, as long as you get one at all.

*Although I think it's easier at college. :D

[mr mistook]

Shhh! That's my PhD thesis!

lol :lol

[SimonSays]

I am a little taken aback at the anti-college tone of some of these posts.

No you don't necessarily need a college education to be a good writer. You cannot be taught talent and you can learn the craft in other ways.

But college is an extremely valuable experience. It is not, as has been implied about "assimilating into the higher echelons of a predigested culture" and it is not merely career training.

Most colleges require extensive liberal arts studies, regardless of your major. Studying the sciences, math, humanitites, etc. gives on a well-rounded view of the world. It also gives you the analytical and logic skills necessary to succeed in many areas of life.

College is not just book learning - in many cases the most valubable things you learn are not in the books. College exposes you to new ideas, challenges your own ideas and is a nurturing environment for you to learn to both express and believe in your ideas.

College can expose you to people and things you would not ever come across. Many people grow up in environments of little diversity - but a college campus is quite diverse. People from all over the world, from different socio economic, ethnic, geographical backgrounds.

College courses are not always taught by career educators. My journalsim professor was a pulitzer prize winning columnist for a major city daily.

The college experience is an amazing experience and anyone who is fortunate enough to have the opportunity to go, should take advantage of the opportunity.

[maestrowork]

I agree, Simon.

It's one thing to say you don't need a college degree to succeed or what have you. It's another to bash college degrees or those who have one or three.

I firmly believe that if we apply ourselves, there are many ways to succeed. Bill Gate dropped out of college, and see where he is now. Many artists, performers, and authors did not go to college...

However, I also have a Master's degree and I know how important education was to me and how it helped me, better prepared me. If I had to do it all over again, I'd still go to college and grad school.

I don't believe in flaunting your education as if you were better than everyone else. At the same time, it's nothing to sneer at. It's all in the attitude. There are snobs in every walk of life, college educated or not.

I think education is important. ANY education. College is great if you can go. My college years were definitely a great part of my life, and I learned a lot about life through those years. But if you can't go to college, don't despair. You can get an education other ways -- through work experience, through adult education, whatever. Never limit yourself because of circumstances.

There's no need to bash someone without a degree. There's no need to bash someone who has one.

[mr mistook]

But college is an extremely valuable experience. It is not, as has been implied about "assimilating into the higher echelons of a predigested culture" and it is not merely career training.

Okay, okay, maybe I was getting a little snooty when I wrote that last night. "predigested" was an unfortunate choice of words. I'm not saying that college is evil, or a bad idea or anything, but I do think that college grads tend to look at non-college folks as lacking some fundamental understanding of the universe.

To draw an analogy, I had a friend who joined the army (Ironically to get money for college). When she returned from boot-camp, she told me that in her opinion, every citizen should be compelled to spend three years in the military. She felt we'd all be better off for it.

I could understand her viewpoint, but ultimately, it's silly. Not everybody is cut out for the military. I've been a maintenance man for almost three years now. I can tell you, if everybody were forced to work my job for a few years, everybody would be an expert at home-repairs, and all apartments - even in the ghettos would be in top flight condition at all times.


Anyway, I'm not "anti-college". But I think the old saw is true, some people just aren't "college material". That doesn't mean they lack anything at all. It just means they suck at doing homework and taking exams. It means their brains malfunction in a lecture hall.

Me, I went for a few years and dropped out. I loved the social scene, but I just couldn't get behind the class schedule and the gen-eds and all that. Later on I got a job at the library, and spend four years there doing nothing but reading every subject under the sun. I did my own experiments. I took notes. I wrote summaries for myself of what I'd learned. I even researched and completed a "thesis" of sorts - not because it was assigned, but because I simply felt compelled.

None of it does me any good on a resume', but it would be nice to think I could refer to that experience without seeing the academics turn up their noses.

[maestrowork]

I do think that college grads tend to look at non-college folks as lacking some fundamental understanding of the universe.

That's quite a broad stroke, and I don't buy that. Certainly there are people like that, but not in general terms.

I know many people, with or without college degrees, and I never noticed this "attitude." As a matter of fact, most people don't know or care if anyone has a college degree or not. When I was still working, most people did have at least a bachelor's degree at work, but some didn't. Honestly we didn't care. At least for me, I never treated a coworker with a degree differently than someone without just because of it.

My brother never went to college. Actually, he barely finished high school. He was one of those you'd called "not college material." And I have a Master's degree. But I love and respect my brother very much. I don't see him as in any way ill-equipped or lack of understanding of the universe. As a matter of fact, there are so many things he knows about that I don't, I can really learn a lot from him. We're different, but no "better" than each other.

[mr mistook]

That's quite a broad stroke, and I don't buy that. Certainly there are people like that, but not in general terms.

Okay, you got me! There is a chip on my shoulder, I admit it. :hat

The original story that started this thread struck a chord with me. I've had more than a few "friends" come back from college and belittle my hopes, mock my aspirations in just the same way.

What really hurts is that these guys were all social out-casts in grade school where I was the only person to befriend them. I don't know how many times I defended them to bullies, or helped them land dates - only to get kicked in the teeth later on in life.

Maestro, you're right, obviously. Most people arent' like this. I guess I was born in the wrong town or something. Anyway, I'm highly biased on this topic, so this will be my last addition to this particular thread.

[maestrowork]

I'm sorry about your friends. Hopefully, you will see that not everyone is like them.

[Writing Again]

I do think that college grads tend to look at non-college folks as lacking some fundamental understanding of the universe.

That's quite a broad stroke, and I don't buy that. Certainly there are people like that, but not in general terms.

Of course you would not see it. If you were to tell the boss, "I don't like the idea that the proposed warehouse has the major doors opening in direct line with the way the wind blows when it rains in the winter," the boss would not tell you, "I don't have the time to give you a college education. You will see that it will work when it does." And of course it did not work and the boss blames the people who designed the building and did not take winter winds into account.

You never asked a college grad for a date only to have her ask you, "You are almost illiterate. We have nothing in common. What would we talk about?" To which I replied, "I'll just throw my feet up on the table, drink beer, watch football and belch just like your future husband."

I was once interrupted in a discussion of Shakespeare with the comment, "What would you know about it? You never even went to college let alone studied literature?." To which my only reply was that I once played Sly in an amateur version of Taming of the Shrew.

On the job when I told an assistant, "We need to at least try to do the job right," his reply was, "Why? I'm just here as an intern to get credit. I'm going to college so I don't have to do this kind of work."

Yet it takes so little to pass for a college grad. All you have to do is to have a large vocabulary and be able to string words together in grammatical order.

I think most of us without college degrees do have a chip on our shoulders and I think they were placed there by college grads and future grads who believe they are better than we.

[Crusader]

Mm, the "intellectual aristocracy".

Isn't it fitting how their gaffes are about as painful to watch as the bumblings of the British monarchy?

[reph]

I think most of us without college degrees do have a chip on our shoulders and I think they were placed there by college grads and future grads who believe they are better than we.

Look here, I have something that may help you.

I built up a lot of diffuse anger as a child because I felt discriminated against for being young. I mean the snotty way many adults talk down to children, for instance. I always felt that, in some sense, I was the equal of anyone else, not that I knew as much as grownups did or that I could do everything as well as they did. More like I was entitled to one full unit of dignity just by being a person. I hadn't chosen to be born recently, so they shouldn't dump on me for being a kid.

Later I realized that the adults who gave me those bad experiences were insensitive people who probably insulted their peers, too. No matter how old I get, there'll always be people who want to prove me inferior because they have an attitude problem.

If you had a college degree, the people who glory in oneupmanship would get on you for something else. They could call you an egghead with no practical experience in whatever they deem themselves experts at. This might be independent of the facts. It wouldn't matter, they'd still do it.

[AncientEagle]

Having been born in and brought up in poverty, and having struggled to get a college education, I am proud of the fact that I struggled and won that particular battle, in an age when there was much less help available than now, and when most people who knew me didn't think I would do it. But I never thought the degree, or a second one, made me better than anybody else. College smoothed a few rough edges, but as for actual knowledge, I gained 99 % of that after I graduated. I am married to a high school graduate. She is a helluva lot smarter than I am, not to mention a lot better looking. My best friend for life, until he passed away, was a classmate from third grade through high school. He never went to college. We were always best friends.

There are jackasses all over the world. Some have degrees. Some don't. You can't change a jackass or expect much of him, with or without a college degree. On the other hand, quality will always come out on top, like cream. Lack of some paper credentials won't change that, nor will stacks of degrees.

Sometimes it's easy to perceive slights where others never intended them.

[DarkHaven80]

I agree with everyone else on college. It's not needed for writing. I did take a class on creative writing in college and it was crappy. About the whole thing concentrated on poetry; the fiction are was skim at best. College is education, and education provides more questions in your mind seeking to be answered. I would say its good inspiration, and good for other areas of employment, but not for art per se.

[Writing Again]

I built up a lot of diffuse anger as a child because I felt discriminated against for being young. I mean the snotty way many adults talk down to children, for instance. I always felt that, in some sense, I was the equal of anyone else, not that I knew as much as grownups did or that I could do everything as well as they did. More like I was entitled to one full unit of dignity just by being a person. I hadn't chosen to be born recently, so they shouldn't dump on me for being a kid.

I agree wholeheartedly. Children deserve respect. What is more when you give a child respect they respond to it. Even teenage gang members respond well to being given respect.

[STORMTURNER]

I believe college could be good networking ground. I think experiential knowledge is more virtuous than scholastic.

That being said, get your foot in the door -- it's not who you know, it's whom you know and how much they owe you.

[BradyH1861]

I had a good time in college and grad school. However, as someone with a Masters in History, I can say in no uncertain terms that I learned nothing in the classroom that I could not have learned on my own. Still, I would not trade the experience for anything.

I got my "education" in the Fire Service. That is where I was exposed to the "mean streets" and all that. Those experiences have shaped who I am much more so than two degrees and the money I spent to get them.

As far as writing is concerned, yes, I wrote a lot of papers and what not in college, but exposure to people that I met on the job that I would not normally have met has given a new life to many of my characters.

There is no substitute for learning by experience. The differences between the classroom and the real world are indeed present. But still, college can open doors for folks and I am glad that I went.

Just my 2 cents.

[writing diva05]

Thank you all for your comments. You helped me a great deal by looking at it in so many different ways.

I'm glad I found this board!

Here's wishing all of you the very best of everything in the new year.


:rollin HAPPY NEW YEAR :rollin