DON"T GET DOWN ON YOURSELF!! QT SHAK

[Don Allen]

I was driving home from my crappy construction job yesterday wondering what I could do to get my book published and thinking for a moment that maybe I'm just wasting my time. Then a commercial comes on the radio for a new T.V show featuring Shaquille O'neil helping a bunch over overweight kids to, well lose weight. He tells them over and over DON"T GET DOWN ON YOURSELF, DON"T GIVE UP. YOU CAN DO THIS!! IT's weird where you can find inspiration, but damn if I didn't pick up my head and say this guy is right... I can do this. We can do this. The only way were going to succeed in get our books published is if we doggedly pursue every avenue and query every agent, every publisher, and anyone who is remotely connected to the publishing world to make our voice known. YES DARN IT!! LETS GO GET THEM... I got to go back to my crappy construction job now, but I'm hitting agent query as soon as I get home...

[Spiny Norman]

This made me grin like an idiot.

[mscelina]

Amen, Don!

[Don Allen]

This made me grin like an idiot.


Cool!

[Moon Daughter]

So very, very true.

[Saundra Julian]

I needed that, thanks!

[johnzakour]

Sssh, don't tell Shaq he inspired you. Or when you get published he'll demand 15%.

Seriously, much of the success in this business is hanging in there and plugging away.

[Geist]

"The thing is," said the wet blanket, "no amount of beating the bushes and contacting everyone remotely connected with the publishing world is going to make up for a lack or talent and craftsmanship."

I want so much to be able to make my living from my fiction, but I know that if in fact I am incapable of producing commercial quality fiction, I'm not going to, not ever. And that's just the hard cold truth that will not change, not even with all my wanting it to.

I've written in this group before about the education of a writer, and when I've suggested a bachelor's degree as the standard degree for a writer, I get tomatoes thrown at me. Why? Because people want to entertain the lotto-style fantasy that even without any academic preparation, they might be able to write a book that the vast majority of the reading public will love.

And now that I've brought up the horrible taboo of "talent," God knows what's going to become of me. But it's true: writing is an academic endeavor, and popular writers are the talented storytellers that are also academically inclined toward making those stories into novels.

I could be completely wrong here, but I don't think publishing success is a matter of luck. Fiction publishers have to publish books every year. They are desperate for interesting, page-turners written by talented writers. I used to be somewhat involved in publishing, and I can tell you this. The year you put out the same catalog you put out the year before is the year you go out of business. Publishers are desperate for material. I honestly believe that's why you see so much crap published in fiction. If a novel even begins to hold together as a minimal story, if it can just barely get people to turn the pages or be minimally interested in the characters, it's probably going to get published.

The truth is. Most people who write fiction cannot write with the minimum of craftsmanship required for fiction stories to work. Their characters are cliche' or unbelievable. Their actions are not motivated. They bore people with stupid description that goes on forever. And the dialogue, Oh Gott, der Dialog; they'd do better to write in a foreign language.

Look, I bought a book by an author. I knew, just by looking at her picture, it was going to be bad. I got the book and it was so bad, I actually used it to make a 50-point paper on fiction mistakes. It was a story. That is, it had characters, it had a beginning, a climax, and a denouement, but it was so unoriginal, so cliche, so unmotivated, so...stupid, I wouldn't have read past page three except I wanted to analyze it for all the poor writing. It was published by a very small publisher. I would be surprised if it earned a hundred dollars in roalties. But that's how most so-called writers write.

I got another book. This one was published by Harper-Collins. I got to page ten before I realized, I couldn't care less what happened to the characters. But it was put together minimally as a story, and was somewhat original. But reading it was like sitting on a bench watching people in a park. If I want to be bored, I can just close the book and be bored. Damn thing was casebound as well.

Most people cannot write fiction, even those who are published. Even those who are classical writers from long ago.

Now, see, I'm boring myself, which means you probably haven't even read to this paragraph. So I better quit.

Ed

[Shady Lane]

"The thing is," said the wet blanket, "no amount of beating the bushes and contacting everyone remotely connected with the publishing world is going to make up for a lack or talent and craftsmanship."

I want so much to be able to make my living from my fiction, but I know that if in fact I am incapable of producing commercial quality fiction, I'm not going to, not ever. And that's just the hard cold truth that will not change, not even with all my wanting it to.

I've written in this group before about the education of a writer, and when I've suggested a bachelor's degree as the standard degree for a writer, I get tomatoes thrown at me. Why? Because people want to entertain the lotto-style fantasy that even without any academic preparation, they might be able to write a book that the vast majority of the reading public will love.

And now that I've brought up the horrible taboo of "talent," God knows what's going to become of me. But it's true: writing is an academic endeavor, and popular writers are the talented storytellers that are also academically inclined toward making those stories into novels.

I could be completely wrong here, but I don't think publishing success is a matter of luck. Fiction publishers have to publish books every year. They are desperate for interesting, page-turners written by talented writers. I used to be somewhat involved in publishing, and I can tell you this. The year you put out the same catalog you put out the year before is the year you go out of business. Publishers are desperate for material. I honestly believe that's why you see so much crap published in fiction. If a novel even begins to hold together as a minimal story, if it can just barely get people to turn the pages or be minimally interested in the characters, it's probably going to get published.

The truth is. Most people who write fiction cannot write with the minimum of craftsmanship required for fiction stories to work. Their characters are cliche' or unbelievable. Their actions are not motivated. They bore people with stupid description that goes on forever. And the dialogue, Oh Gott, der Dialog; they'd do better to write in a foreign language.

Look, I bought a book by an author. I knew, just by looking at her picture, it was going to be bad. I got the book and it was so bad, I actually used it to make a 50-point paper on fiction mistakes. It was a story. That is, it had characters, it had a beginning, a climax, and a denouement, but it was so unoriginal, so cliche, so unmotivated, so...stupid, I wouldn't have read past page three except I wanted to analyze it for all the poor writing. It was published by a very small publisher. I would be surprised if it earned a hundred dollars in roalties. That's how most writers are.

I got another book. This one was published by Harper-collins. I got to page ten before I realized, I couldn't care less what happened to the characters. But it was put together minimally as a story, and was somewhat original. But reading it was like sitting on a bench watching people in a park. If I want to be bored, I can just close the book and be bored.

Most people cannot write fiction, even those who are published. Even those who are classical writers from long ago.

Now, see, I'm boring myself, which means you probably haven't even read to this paragraph. So I better quit.

Ed

Okay, I'm confused. We suck, and that's why we can't get published. But wait--what's published sucks too.

And school is the answer?

[Zoombie]

I'm confused too...I find that most published is actually pretty good. That's why it's published...and I'm reading it...

[Geist]

Okay, I'm confused. We suck, and that's why we can't get published. But wait--what's published sucks too.

And school is the answer?

See, here it comes.

I never said you suck. I never said Don Allen sucks. I've never read your work, so I have no idea if you suck. Don Allen sounds like he's had an interesting life, and he sounds a little older. My guess is he can probably sling a good story, if he wants to. I simply don't know.

I am speaking only in generalities. But, and this is a big wide but, if you have produced manuscripts, and you have never gone to college, and you can't get legitimately published, it may be safe to say that your stories aren't that good. Again, I don't know you, and I don't know if that's at all true.

But, honestly, tell me if this is not true: Just wanting it isn't enough.

Ed

[Shady Lane]

I knew you meant generally. I didn't take it as a personal attack. That "we" was meant to refer to unpublished or unknown writers in general. I am published, actually (or I will be come September) but I still count myself as an unpublished writer. I don't know why. I'm rambling a bit.

I just don't really understand the point of your post. If what's being published is so bad, what are we supposed to be aspiring to?

[RG570]

I'm not sure I understand how university can magically make people who otherwise can't write into publishable writers. Or how someone who can write, but not quite well enough, can't improve on their own and become published.

I mean, where does university fit in to it? I mean, other than elitism.

[johnzakour]

Well, of course you need talent too.

But like Woody Allen (a fairly talented writer) said, "80% of success is showing up..."

[Ali B]

See, here it comes.

I never said you suck. I never said Don Allen sucks. I've never read your work, so I have no idea if you suck. Don Allen sounds like he's had an interesting life, and he sounds a little older. My guess is he can probably sling a good story, if he wants to. I simply don't know.

I am speaking only in generalities. But, and this is a big wide but, if you have produced manuscripts, and you have never gone to college, and you can't get legitimately published, it may be safe to say that your stories aren't that good. Again, I don't know you, and I don't know if that's at all true.

But, honestly, tell me if this is not true: Just wanting it isn't enough.

Ed

I'm not playing Mod here or anything, but...This thread started out as a sunny out look to be shared with everyone. What makes you think you can hijack this thread and turn it into your soapbox? Please, if you are going to preach make a thread in TIO. I've been here for a long time, and thread hijacking isn't taken kindly to.

PS I don't mean to be rude. Just some advice.

[Maryn]

Add another wet blanket. (I'm sorry, really I am.)

Yes, ambition, perseverence, and never-quit attitude count for a lot. These factors are part of the make-up of every successful author I've known personally. And frankly, some of them don't write as well as I do--but man, they were just driven to finish a book, get those queries out, and find an agent, driven in a way I apparently am not.

Not every kid who dreams of being the starting center for the Lakers, and who works really hard toward that goal, is going to make a college team, much less play pro. Working hard on your skills, and wanting it so much you devote a lot of effort to the dream, increase your odds, but in the end, you might still be a woman who's 5'4" who has no chance.

That doesn't mean you give up the dream of publication. It means you hone your skills to their absolute best, even if that takes a long, long time, and you look yourself in the eye with the knowledge that even if you never make it, you gave it everything you had. That in itself is honorable.

Maryn, honorable realist

[Zoombie]

Frankly, that's not too much of a wet blanket, really. It's the truth. Work hard, work a lot, and be perserverant, and then have a bit of luck, and you're in the door!

[johnzakour]

I'm not playing Mod here or anything, but...This thread started out as a sunny out look to be shared with everyone. What makes you think you can hijack this thread and turn it into your soapbox? Please, if you are going to preach make a thread in TIO. I've been here for a long time, and thread hijacking isn't taken kindly to.

PS I don't mean to be rude. Just some advice.

I don't think he was hijacking at all. Just stating his opinion which is as valid as any other opinion. I don't agree with much of what he said. (I'd be afraid to hear what he thinks of my books...) But I don't think it was a hijacking attempt.

[Ali B]

I was just kinda shocked. Here I was reading all these "you can do it" type posts and then, wham! negative. You're right, though, he probably didn't mean to hijack the thread.

[Don Allen]

Sssh, don't tell Shaq he inspired you. Or when you get published he'll demand 15%.

Seriously, much of the success in this business is hanging in there and plugging away.


I just got off the floor from laughing... I know you're right... Thanks

[johnzakour]

I just got off the floor from laughing... I know you're right... Thanks

Phew, making people laugh comes in really handy when you're a humor writer.

[Don Allen]

"The thing is," said the wet blanket, "no amount of beating the bushes and contacting everyone remotely connected with the publishing world is going to make up for a lack or talent and craftsmanship."

I want so much to be able to make my living from my fiction, but I know that if in fact I am incapable of producing commercial quality fiction, I'm not going to, not ever. And that's just the hard cold truth that will not change, not even with all my wanting it to.

I've written in this group before about the education of a writer, and when I've suggested a bachelor's degree as the standard degree for a writer, I get tomatoes thrown at me. Why? Because people want to entertain the lotto-style fantasy that even without any academic preparation, they might be able to write a book that the vast majority of the reading public will love.

And now that I've brought up the horrible taboo of "talent," God knows what's going to become of me. But it's true: writing is an academic endeavor, and popular writers are the talented storytellers that are also academically inclined toward making those stories into novels.

I could be completely wrong here, but I don't think publishing success is a matter of luck. Fiction publishers have to publish books every year. They are desperate for interesting, page-turners written by talented writers. I used to be somewhat involved in publishing, and I can tell you this. The year you put out the same catalog you put out the year before is the year you go out of business. Publishers are desperate for material. I honestly believe that's why you see so much crap published in fiction. If a novel even begins to hold together as a minimal story, if it can just barely get people to turn the pages or be minimally interested in the characters, it's probably going to get published.

The truth is. Most people who write fiction cannot write with the minimum of craftsmanship required for fiction stories to work. Their characters are cliche' or unbelievable. Their actions are not motivated. They bore people with stupid description that goes on forever. And the dialogue, Oh Gott, der Dialog; they'd do better to write in a foreign language.

Look, I bought a book by an author. I knew, just by looking at her picture, it was going to be bad. I got the book and it was so bad, I actually used it to make a 50-point paper on fiction mistakes. It was a story. That is, it had characters, it had a beginning, a climax, and a denouement, but it was so unoriginal, so cliche, so unmotivated, so...stupid, I wouldn't have read past page three except I wanted to analyze it for all the poor writing. It was published by a very small publisher. I would be surprised if it earned a hundred dollars in roalties. But that's how most so-called writers write.

I got another book. This one was published by Harper-Collins. I got to page ten before I realized, I couldn't care less what happened to the characters. But it was put together minimally as a story, and was somewhat original. But reading it was like sitting on a bench watching people in a park. If I want to be bored, I can just close the book and be bored. Damn thing was casebound as well.

Most people cannot write fiction, even those who are published. Even those who are classical writers from long ago.

Now, see, I'm boring myself, which means you probably haven't even read to this paragraph. So I better quit.

Ed


Ed, Wow... take it easy. Sit back take a breath and chill out. Actually I read with interest your thoughts and I find myself agreeing with you for a change (which is a little scary) but, I really think you have to ask yourself something. Is the story you're writing important to you and do you feel that' its something others need to read? Not want to read, but need to read. I make the distinction because every great book, hell even every good book, has something to say. Gene Roddenbury (sorry name spelled wrong) of Star Trek fame made it a point to create a story that he could comment on current events through his writing. Star Trek, need I say more. Even the old Godzilla movies were created as social commentary. My point is that YES, there are bad books out there and they get published and maybe even some people buy them, and you will never change that. But I firmly believe, seriously, that if you have something to say, and can figure out how to say it well, and believe 110% in yourself and your project you will succeed. Examples- Frank McCourt, Sly Stallone, The Beatles, ( turned down by a half dozen labels) Michael J. Fox, ( got one role made some cash bought a car didn't pay his taxes and was living on the street.) What I'm trying to say is that you have to want it really bad.. You can't take no for an answer... Hell of a pep talk, you think....

[Don Allen]

Add another wet blanket. (I'm sorry, really I am.)

Yes, ambition, perseverence, and never-quit attitude count for a lot. These factors are part of the make-up of every successful author I've known personally. And frankly, some of them don't write as well as I do--but man, they were just driven to finish a book, get those queries out, and find an agent, driven in a way I apparently am not.

Not every kid who dreams of being the starting center for the Lakers, and who works really hard toward that goal, is going to make a college team, much less play pro. Working hard on your skills, and wanting it so much you devote a lot of effort to the dream, increase your odds, but in the end, you might still be a woman who's 5'4" who has no chance.

That doesn't mean you give up the dream of publication. It means you hone your skills to their absolute best, even if that takes a long, long time, and you look yourself in the eye with the knowledge that even if you never make it, you gave it everything you had. That in itself is honorable.

Maryn, honorable realist


You'll never win if you don't think you can, it's a fact of life.. A side note did Geist say I was full of crap?

[Don Allen]

You'll never win if you don't think you can, it's a fact of life.. A side note did Geist say I was full of crap?


Actually I think he said I was old and full of crap... Okay I can deal with that..

[Zoombie]

Did you just quote yourself? Isn't that like dividing by zero! If it is, be careful...you could kill us all!

And I didn't think he said you were full of crap. I'm pretty sure he was making sure that people know that you have to have some innate talent to write.

[Geist]

I knew you meant generally. I didn't take it as a personal attack. That "we" was meant to refer to unpublished or unknown writers in general. I am published, actually (or I will be come September) but I still count myself as an unpublished writer. I don't know why. I'm rambling a bit.

Not rambling at all. I get you.

I just don't really understand the point of your post. If what's being published is so bad, what are we supposed to be aspiring to?

Well, that's brings us to the topic of 'art' doesn't it. We are aspiring to the highest standards of the art of fiction. The mastery of the craft pushed further than it has been before. Now I'm rambling!

But I think an example of what we are aspiring to is best illustrated by a music video I was watching. It was the reunion concert of Fleetwood Mac. One of the songs, "I'm so Afraid," that featured Lindsey Buckingham on his own blew me away completely.

Lindsey Buckingham is getting older, obviously. Fleetwood Mac is really in the archives of 70's/80's rock and roll. It's over. But in this song, I watched him play the guitar in a way I can't even comprehend, and his voice and energy were great, and I was really moved by the sheer talent of this man. Then I realized, that performance I was watching was the result of a lifetime of playing the guitar and constantly striving to be better. It was the culmination of a career in music by an extremely talented individual, who still had it--even more than that--had transcended "it."

I have always said, and I will say it again: If I can ever write as good as Lindsey Buckingham can play, I will have made it to the very top of fiction art.

So, what kind story is Sublime?

[Shady Lane]

So, what kind story is Sublime?

Allegorical YA. Kid named Jack get stuck on an island. Eccentricity ensues. ;)

I'm awful at describing my stuff.

[Geist]

I'm not sure I understand how university can magically make people who otherwise can't write into publishable writers. Or how someone who can write, but not quite well enough, can't improve on their own and become published.

I mean, where does university fit in to it? I mean, other than elitism.

A university degree does not make a writer. On that point, we agree. But, and this is a Mississippi Walmart 'but,' writing is an academic activity. It requires an educated person in order to do it right. An uneducated person may be a good storyteller around the campfire, but to turn that story into a novel or quality short story requires education. I mean the tools of writing are liberal art subjects: Literature, composition, grammar. Not to mention the ancillary knowledge necessary like psychology, human growth and development, even anatomy and physiology, or chemistry, etc.

And that's why the degree hardly matters, because all bachelor's degrees require English 101, 102, psychology, electives, etc. For instance, John Grisham is a lawyer, or was.

But prove me wrong: can you point out any well-known author who didn't go to college? And I stress "well-known" because they are the ones who are living off their writing income in a manner we all would probably like to have from our efforts at work.

[CaroGirl]

If, as a writer, you're anywhere between competent and outstanding, you have a good chance at being published. Where good writers go wrong are in things like writing a crappy query letter, querying agents that don't represent the type of work they've written, and giving up after writing only one novel (or story) and having it rejected. The way to maximize any writer's success is write a lot, learn your craft to the BEST of your ability, research the agents and publishers to whom you want to send your work, adhere to their guidelines EXPLICITLY, and write the next book while you "wait." None of this will be a hardship if you enjoy writing, and we humans generally enjoy doing what we believe we're good at.

[Geist]

I don't think he was hijacking at all. Just stating his opinion which is as valid as any other opinion. I don't agree with much of what he said. (I'd be afraid to hear what he thinks of my books...) But I don't think it was a hijacking attempt.

Actually, now that you mention it. I intend to order a copy of Frost-Haired Vixen, but I have to wait for another book I just ordered to come in, otherwise my wife will think I'm selfish if order after order rolls in from Amazon.

But they look fun. They look like they keep you reading them. DAW, Penguin group, multiple publications, not bad. I hate you for that, of course.:)

[Geist]

Ed, Wow... take it easy. Sit back take a breath and chill out. Actually I read with interest your thoughts and I find myself agreeing with you for a change (which is a little scary) but, I really think you have to ask yourself something. Is the story you're writing important to you and do you feel that' its something others need to read? Not want to read, but need to read. I make the distinction because every great book, hell even every good book, has something to say. Gene Roddenbury (sorry name spelled wrong) of Star Trek fame made it a point to create a story that he could comment on current events through his writing. Star Trek, need I say more. Even the old Godzilla movies were created as social commentary. My point is that YES, there are bad books out there and they get published and maybe even some people buy them, and you will never change that. But I firmly believe, seriously, that if you have something to say, and can figure out how to say it well, and believe 110% in yourself and your project you will succeed. Examples- Frank McCourt, Sly Stallone, The Beatles, ( turned down by a half dozen labels) Michael J. Fox, ( got one role made some cash bought a car didn't pay his taxes and was living on the street.) What I'm trying to say is that you have to want it really bad.. You can't take no for an answer... Hell of a pep talk, you think....

I agree, you have to have tenacity. No doubt about it. But the people you mention: Stallone, The Beatles, Michael J. Fox, they didn't get to where they were by just tenacity. They also, as I think we would both agree, had a great deal of talent.

But here's a scary truth, and we all know it's true, but we never like to fart it out in polite company: People with talent should never quit, those without it should quit right away.

But I haven't published, or tried to publish, my first book yet, so I don't know which one I am. Scary. But to hell with fear.

As for people wanting or needing to read my work. No, there's no great moral truth in it that can't be had from other sources. What I want is for people to want to read my book. I want them to be entertained, to be able to escape, to not be bored, to chuckle at parts, to reflect on their own lives at parts, to sympathize with my two main characters, and maybe think about it everytime they drink a glass of wine. I want that so bad, I'd gladly sell my soul for it. After all, what's a soul for if not to sell for something that really matters?

[rugcat]

But like Woody Allen (a fairly talented writer) said, "80% of success is showing up..."Not to be a nit picker, but I think the actual quote is, "Ninety percent of life is just showing up."

[Geist]

If, as a writer, you're anywhere between competent and outstanding, you have a good chance at being published. Where good writers go wrong are in things like writing a crappy query letter, querying agents that don't represent the type of work they've written, and giving up after writing only one novel (or story) and having it rejected. The way to maximize any writer's success is write a lot, learn your craft to the BEST of your ability, research the agents and publishers to whom you want to send your work, adhere to their guidelines EXPLICITLY, and write the next book while you "wait." None of this will be a hardship if you enjoy writing, and we humans generally enjoy doing what we believe we're good at.

Good words. I've gone through Writer's Market and highlighted all the agents I think would represent my work. I fully expect to be rejected by 3/4 of them, simply because they don't want to do a ghost story. But that's not the same thing as rejection, proper. Real rejection is when everything's a fit and you get a form letter back. They'd love a ghost story, just not mine.

[RG570]

A university degree does not make a writer. On that point, we agree. But, and this is a Mississippi Walmart 'but,' writing is an academic activity. It requires an educated person in order to do it right. An uneducated person may be a good storyteller around the campfire, but to turn that story into a novel or quality short story requires education. I mean the tools of writing are liberal art subjects: Literature, composition, grammar. Not to mention the ancillary knowledge necessary like psychology, human growth and development, even anatomy and physiology, or chemistry, etc.

And that's why the degree hardly matters, because all bachelor's degrees require English 101, 102, psychology, electives, etc. For instance, John Grisham is a lawyer, or was.

But prove me wrong: can you point out any well-known author who didn't go to college? And I stress "well-known" because they are the ones who are living off their writing income in a manner we all would probably like to have from our efforts at work.

Grammar is taught in high school, and many people pick it up naturally, even if they don't know the terminology. Technical issues are easily fixed with self-study and practice. If, that is, the person has enough self-awareness to realize they need to study these things. I don't see how university is required.

For everything else, yeah, I can't argue that it would be a huge asset to any writer. But necessary? I doubt it. Nothing stops an "uneducated" writer from educating himself.

You can study literature without taking a course in it. I'd be gobsmacked if anyone on here who was serious about writing didn't read the same things taught in English programs, even if they didn't like them.

Everything else, you can study on your own as well.

I don't know, it just seems like your point is more geared towards someone with low intelligence or motivation who needs every single thing spelled out for them. For someone who has substandard mechanical skills, who has taken no initiative to analyze great writing on their own, etc. In that case, you're absolutely right.

As for examples of uneducated writers, the only one I know of off-hand is Robert Heinlein. Not the best, but he was pretty big. There was a thread around here a while ago, I'm sure, that was about uneducated writers.

[johnzakour]

Not to be a nit picker, but I think the actual quote is, "Ninety percent of life is just showing up."

Depends who you listen to:

http://www.ecademy.com/node.php?id=65593

80% seems more accurate to me.

[johnzakour]

...not bad. I hate you for that, of course.:)

Okay now you sound like my agent.... ;-)

[johnzakour]

As for examples of uneducated writers, the only one I know of off-hand is Robert Heinlein. Not the best, but he was pretty big. There was a thread around here a while ago, I'm sure, that was about uneducated writers.

Ah, I thouht Heinlein went to the Navel Academy. I believe that counts as education. (I was asked to be a on panel at Comic Con about him, I passed because I don't feel I know enough, but I did read up a bit.)

[Shady Lane]

I haven't been to college. I know the rules of grammar. I knew them before high school.

[Geist]

Ah, I thouht Heinlein went to the Navel Academy. I believe that counts as education. (I was asked to be a on panel at Comic Con about him, I passed because I don't feel I know enough, but I did read up a bit.)

Actually, the Naval Academy would be considered Ivy League, at that. Graduating the Naval Academy isn't just a degree, it's a change in one's caste system.

[Geist]

Grammar is taught in high school, and many people pick it up naturally, even if they don't know the terminology. Technical issues are easily fixed with self-study and practice. If, that is, the person has enough self-awareness to realize they need to study these things. I don't see how university is required.

For everything else, yeah, I can't argue that it would be a huge asset to any writer. But necessary? I doubt it. Nothing stops an "uneducated" writer from educating himself.

You can study literature without taking a course in it. I'd be gobsmacked if anyone on here who was serious about writing didn't read the same things taught in English programs, even if they didn't like them.

Everything else, you can study on your own as well.

I don't know, it just seems like your point is more geared towards someone with low intelligence or motivation who needs every single thing spelled out for them. For someone who has substandard mechanical skills, who has taken no initiative to analyze great writing on their own, etc. In that case, you're absolutely right.

As for examples of uneducated writers, the only one I know of off-hand is Robert Heinlein. Not the best, but he was pretty big. There was a thread around here a while ago, I'm sure, that was about uneducated writers.

Everything you say is true. And it is possible that there are people out there like the MC in "Goodwill Hunting." It's just that it seems most people who are serious about fiction writing as a real career, tend to gravitate toward college. But, I will stipulate that it is not truly "necessary" for all individuals.

[Geist]

I haven't been to college. I know the rules of grammar. I knew them before high school.

Well, I hope you prove me wrong.

Good luck.

Ed

[rugcat]

Depends who you listen to:

http://www.ecademy.com/node.php?id=65593

80% seems more accurate to me.Actually, I was there in the room when he said it. Or at least I think I was--I'm about 85% sure.

[Akuma]

Everything you say is true. And it is possible that there are people out there like the MC in "Goodwill Hunting." It's just that it seems most people who are serious about fiction writing as a real career, tend to gravitate toward college. But, I will stipulate that it is not truly "necessary" for all individuals.

Hubert Selby Jr. did pretty well for himself as well. :)



*just being annoying*

[johnzakour]

Actually, I was there in the room when he said it. Or at least I think I was--I'm about 85% sure.

I'm pretty sure he's said it on multiple occasions, he probably changes to fit his mood. He's a moody guy. ;-)

I'm pretty sure the original quote was 80%. It just seems "righter".

Doesn't really matter. The important thing is showing up counts a lot. Heck, that's the secret to my career. I just keep writing books...

[johnzakour]

Well, I hope you prove me wrong.

Good luck.

Ed

Heck, I went to college, then an IVY league graduate school and then another graduate school and now I plan to go another graduate school (I like going to school) and I still don't know all the grammar rules, I tend to write in run on sentences when I post, I really do.

[EriRae]

Heck, I went to college, then an IVY league graduate school and then another graduate school and now I plan to go another graduate school (I like going to school) and I still don't know all the grammar rules, I tend to write in run on sentences when I post, I really do.

Ivy league grad school? I wish I'd had the time (and money) to do that! I'm oh so jealous! Do you have an MFA? I've often considered going back to school to master in creative writing.

I have to say, though, school is what you get out of it. It seems like more and more people are paying for a piece of paper with their huge student loans and not getting much else in return. A BA in English isn't the same as it was even 10 years ago.

[johnzakour]

Ivy league grad school? I wish I'd had the time (and money) to do that! I'm oh so jealous! Do you have an MFA? I've often considered going back to school to master in creative writing.


I didn't pay, I went on the employee degree program. All my early degrees were in computer science.

[Geist]

Okay now you sound like my agent.... ;-)

I ordered a copy of Frost Haired Vixen today. I can't wait to get it.

(I always like to state that publicly in order to inspire copycats!)

[Sean D. Schaffer]

A university degree does not make a writer. On that point, we agree. But, and this is a Mississippi Walmart 'but,' writing is an academic activity. It requires an educated person in order to do it right. An uneducated person may be a good storyteller around the campfire, but to turn that story into a novel or quality short story requires education.


Hmmm,

I've never received a rejection letter where the editor said, "Sorry, but you don't have a college education so your work is not good enough".

I've received lots of rejection letters over the years, but never one that told me I needed more education.

I have heard non-writers say that. I've heard people who've never one time been published tell me that. But never an editor, and never an agent.

What you need is not university or college; what you need is practice and love for the Craft, along with perseverance. There is no schooling that can make you tell a story professionally enough to be a published writer. None.

It's like the friend of mine who read so much about cars he could tell you why the 1969 Chevrolet Nova was called 'the 13 second grocery cart', and yet he could not change the spark plugs in a '69 Nova to save his life. All his learning was great for head-knowledge. But he still could not fix the car. OTOH, my High School drop-out step-dad could not only change the spark plugs, but he could take the entire engine apart and rebuild it without instructions or a schematic.

In the same manner, a person can go to college until they're blue in the face and never get a publishing deal. On the other hand, a person can be a High School drop-out and become world-famous in this business, because they practiced and honed their Craft. Whether a person goes to College or no, if they apply themselves to learning the Craft, they have as much chance as a college educated individual of making it as a professional writer, at least in fiction.

[Geist]

In the same manner, a person can go to college until they're blue in the face and never get a publishing deal. On the other hand, a person can be a High School drop-out and become world-famous in this business, because they practiced and honed their Craft.

This subject is getting pretty worn out. I thought you plonked me? I'll tell you what: show me one successful writer who dropped out of high school and I'll shut my mouth about college forever. By successful, I mean world-famous--just like you said.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

This subject is getting pretty worn out. I thought you plonked me? I'll tell you what: show me one successful writer who dropped out of high school and I'll shut my mouth about college forever. By successful, I mean world-famous--just like you said.


Jack London.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Now I'm going to ask you a question, Geist.

Do you have even one legitimate publishing credit to your name?

If so, tell us the title and ISBN, so we can look it up for ourselves.

Such a credit, if you have one, would certainly be a testament to everyone here that you even know what you're talking about.

[Geist]

Jack London.

I will keep my word, and not talk about the importance of a college education anymore. But really, Jack London? 1876-1916. I don't think they even had high school back then, did they?Be that as it may, I'll tell you the absolute truth: I couldn't care less if you have or have never been to college, or if you finished high school, for that matter. I will just assume you haven't and leave it at that.Deal?Ed

[Geist]

Now I'm going to ask you a question, Geist.

Do you have even one legitimate publishing credit to your name?

If so, tell us the title and ISBN, so we can look it up for ourselves.

Such a credit, if you have one, would certainly be a testament to everyone here that you even know what you're talking about.

I talked about my publishing history, or some of it, in another post, and I don't feel like talking about it again. I don't think it will help me in my efforts to publish a fiction book, and that's what I'm all about now. So, I would just assume I know nothing of what I'm talking about. Just assume that in that case, I must be wrong when I say a writer should go to college. Sleep tight, and don't give me a second thought.Ed

[Geist]

And another thing. I made a deal with the management that I wouldn't start flame wars, and that I'd walk away from posts that seemed to be getting a little hot. So, could you not follow me around and write stuff to antagonize me?

[aadams73]

I'll tell you what: show me one successful writer who dropped out of high school and I'll shut my mouth about college forever. By successful, I mean world-famous--just like you said.

I REALLY wish you would shut your face forever:

John Bartlett.......best-selling American author.
Barbara Taylor Bradford....best-selling British romance author. (she's HUGE all over the world)
Agatha Christie......best-selling British author; (and yes, they had high school back then, you nit wit)
Samuel L. Clemens ("Mark Twain")....best-selling American author;
Jackie Collins......best-selling British-born author. (Maybe you've heard of her; she sells MILLIONS of books worldwide)
Joseph Conrad......best-selling Polish-born British author
James Ellroy........best-selling American author.(He's pretty freakin' famous too)
Nora Roberts......best-selling American author. (She's at the TOP of the heap)

Source (http://www.angelfire.com/stars4/lists/dropouts.html)

[gp101]

Not every kid who dreams of being the starting center for the Lakers, and who works really hard toward that goal, is going to make a college team, much less play pro. Working hard on your skills, and wanting it so much you devote a lot of effort to the dream, increase your odds, but in the end, you might still be a woman who's 5'4" who has no chance.



What a perfect analogy. You could be the best baller on your block. You could then improve and be the best in the neighborhood. By your senior year, you're the best player on your high school team. Your team may even win the state championship. But as good as you are, you might not be able to make Division I college ball. Or maybe you do make it, but find there are hundreds of equally good, and much better, players in Division I.

The NBA has a finite number of slots for players. Some that have been around a few years but haven't progressed, will be dropped. Some older ones will retire. The NBA is always looking for new players, not just stars. But as good as you were in your neighborhood, your high school, maybe even college... you might not be good enough for the NBA.

Some will have reached their plateau of skills and simply have no shot at the pros. A smaller number will continue to develop their skills (maybe in Euro leagues) and maybe some day get the call to the pros. They may not be the next Jordan, but they will make a damn good living.

Maybe some of us here on the boards have piqued in our skill sets and we might not be good enough to be published. Harsh reality, but I dare say not all of the thousand or so members here will be published, myself included. On the bright side, however, some of us may have progressed but we're not ready for the big dance just yet. The ones in this latter category who persist wisely, and hone their craft further and persist with the queries, might just get a shot at publishing. We may not be the next Michael Jordan/John Grisham, but we could earn a living.

A select few will become the next superstars.

And quite a few will have to watch from the sidelines.

The challenge, I feel, is to figure out which category we're in, and if we decide we do have some talent, we have a drive to succeed and we haven't piqued yet, then how long are we willing to suck it up, how hard are we willing to try, how much can we improve?

I think with writing, as in pro sports, you need some kernel of talent, then the drive to get better, learn, and force your way onto the scene so that you're such an obvious talent that the NBA or publishing world can't ignore you.

So which category do you fall into?

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Gordon, I already know the answers to all the questions I asked you. I knew you would not answer them because you are a liar. You know next to nothing about the publishing industry and yet you act like you know all there is to know. Everyone here who has any experience in the business can tell from your posts that you are completely clueless when it comes to the business of writing.

I might also point out, Gordon Jerome, that you can claim any amount of publishing expertise you want, but without experience to back it up, your advice is worthless.

You do not have a legitimate publishing credit, Gordon. That much I remember from your previous time on this board.

You are not an authority on the publishing industry or how it works. You believe G-d has given you a Word saying you will write The Great Story, as attested to by your posts under your old username, yet you have also point-blank stated you don't know what it is yet.

Until you get experience in the business you will never know how it works or what it takes to be published. Because of your lack of experience in the business, you are therefore not competent to tell other people what they must do to become good writers.

Gordon, you talk about not starting a flame war, and yet you start one wherever you go. Then, when someone calls you on your BS posts, like I have done in this and one other thread, you blame the other person for starting the flame war.

Remember, Gordon, you are at fault for the flame war on this thread. You, not me, are responsible for the crap that has proliferated upon this thread. You refuse to respect your fellow writer and then you run home crying to the management when someone else treats you the way you first treated them.

Finally, Gordon, most posters here know the nature of your posts. You frankly have a major attitude problem. Someone disagrees with you, and you flip out. Someone calls you on something you do wrong, and you say they're harassing you.

I call bullshit, Mr. Jerome. Complete, unmitigated bullshit. Learn to respect your fellow writers, and maybe you'll get a good reputation around here. Learn to listen, and you might gain the experience you will need to garner a legitimate publishing credit.

If you don't respect your fellow writer, don't expect us to respect you. Also, if you don't have experience in this field, don't be going around telling everyone else how the business works. You don't know how the business works, and you are not an authority on publishing, writing, or anything having to do with the Literary field. Your college education is worthless if you do not have experience to go with it.

Good night, and to use your own words, sleep tight.

[skelly]

http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts2.htm

• Jack London.......best-selling American author (dropped out at 14 to work; later gained admission to the University of California; left after one semester)

eta: Ahhh, Sean beat me to it. Should have read page three first. Grrr.

[Dawno]

I'm disappointed in the tone of some of the responses here. Let's take the personal jabs out and stick to the facts. This thread started with encouragement and has really gone south fast. I'm moving it to the Round Table and asking that we maintain a civil tone going forward, regardless of where the topic goes.

[Geist]

Thanks for moving the post. I suppose if I'm going to be famous (and I am), I'm going to have a good helping of critical opinions.

Hasta

[Akuma]

I talked about my publishing history, or some of it, in another post, and I don't feel like talking about it again. I don't think it will help me in my efforts to publish a fiction book, and that's what I'm all about now. So, I would just assume I know nothing of what I'm talking about. Just assume that in that case, I must be wrong when I say a writer should go to college. Sleep tight, and don't give me a second thought.Ed

Copy and Paste.

I couldn't live without it. :D

[barleybree]

Just my two cents here, (I know who the hell asked for it?!) but, I've had the same dream as Don-to be able to live off my writing. Then a friend asked me, (when I was convinced I would never be able to realize my dream.) "Why do you write? Is it to make money-to be well known? If this so, it doesn't seem like much of a motivation to keep going." I'm paraphrasing here, but my point is simply this; if you write for the sheer love of it, because nothing in the world could get you to stop from putting pen to paper (so to speak) then in the end, being published or not, known to hundreds or to family and friends, is secondary to the joy of being able to write and share with others. Would it be way cool to share your stuff with the world audience, resonate with many and get paid? Hell Yeah! But, if I never do, I will still be content, because I am doing that which brings me (and it seems like the people I share with) some joy.

The fact that most people here would disagree on who is a "talented" writer, is just proof that it's a very subjective thing to write simply for publication. At the end of the day, you have to do it for you. To continue with the sports analogy; a legendary runner once said, "You have to wonder at times what you're doing out there. Over the years, I've given myself a thousand reasons to keep running, but it always comes back to where it started. It comes down to self-satisfaction and a sense of achievement."

[Medievalist]

But prove me wrong: can you point out any well-known author who didn't go to college? And I stress "well-known" because they are the ones who are living off their writing income in a manner we all would probably like to have from our efforts at work.

Mark Twain, Charles Dickens, William Shakespeare, Emily Dickinson, Samuel Delany, Louisa May Alcott . ..

There are a host of very well known writers who are dropouts -- Hemingway, and Faulkner, to name two.

Yes, it's great if you can go to college, not so much because you'll learn to write fiction (you probably won't, in fact), but because you have a good chance of learning a skill to support you while you work on being published.

A college education is not a requirement. Lots of reading, in all sorts of subjects and genres, and lots and lots of writing and revising and listening and observing people are the keys.

[Roger J Carlson]

There is a logical flaw in the college argument, and that is you cannot show cause and effect. Sure a lot of great writers finished high school and college. But you cannot show that the college degree had anything to do with making them great writers.

In fact, writing and college are effects of the same cause -- a thirst for knowledge and a passion (and ability) to express ones self. This means that people who tend to be writers also tend to follow intellectual pursuits like higher education.

[CoriSCapnSkip]

Go, Shaq and Don!!!

[SpookyWriter]

Mark Twain, Charles Dickens, William Shakespeare, Emily Dickinson, Samuel Delany, Louisa May Alcott . ..

There are a host of very well known writers who are dropouts -- Hemingway, and Faulkner, to name two.

Yes, it's great if you can go to college, not so much because you'll learn to write fiction (you probably won't, in fact), but because you have a good chance of learning a skill to support you while you work on being published.

A college education is not a requirement. Lots of reading, in all sorts of subjects and genres, and lots and lots of writing and revising and listening and observing people are the keys.And it helps to have something interesting to say. And it helps to have some life experiences people can relate to while reading said story. Just reading a lot isn't going to make you a great writer, or even a passable one. But it will help you understand what it takes to publish.

[Birol]

You guys all thought I'd disappeared forever and you had the run of the place, didn't you?

Not a chance.

Geist, I suggest you honor your promise to management, take a deep breath, remember that humility is a virtue, and walk away.

Sean, take a deep breath of your own and go peruse other threads, as well.


And everyone else, remember, I'm never really that far away.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Sean, take a deep breath of your own and go peruse other threads, as well.



Not to sound like a jerk or anything, Lori, but neither Geist nor I have posted on this thread since four this morning. He and I also have each other on 'Ignore', so without trying to sound like a complete fool here, the point is already moot.

This, thanks to Dawno, who already warned us and moved the thread from its original part of the board.

[Birol]

Thanks, Sean. I'm glad to know it won't be a further issue.

[Willowmound]

Gordon

:eek:

Geist is Gordon Jerome!

(and to think I gave him a rep point...)

[seun]

:eek:

Geist is Gordon Jerome!

(and to think I gave him a rep point...)

And Darth Vadar is Luke's dad :D

[Willowmound]

:p

[aadams73]

And Darth Vadar is Luke's dad :D

Great!!!! Now you've spoiled it for me!!!!

*stomps off*


;)

[seun]

Great!!!! Now you've spoiled it for me!!!!

*stomps off*


;)

I was lying. Chewbacca is actually a big gay bear.

[akiwiguy]

So, what did we all learn today folk? :D

[Geist]

You guys all thought I'd disappeared forever and you had the run of the place, didn't you?

Not a chance.

Geist, I suggest you honor your promise to management, take a deep breath, remember that humility is a virtue, and walk away.

Sean, take a deep breath of your own and go peruse other threads, as well.


And everyone else, remember, I'm never really that far away.

I don't think every disagreement means there's a flame war going on. If I can't disagree with someone without fear of being booted from the group, well that isn't going to be very fun for me, is it?

As for Sean, I don't think I've replied to him in any kind of personal attack. And I certainly have never put him on "ignore." I don't even know how to do that, nor would I. I'm not that kind of guy.

I realize that even what I am writing to you could seem, perhaps even in your eyes, to be some kind of fight or attack or flame, but I don't see it that way. To quote a line from Jerry McGuire, "You think we're fighting, and I think we're finally talking!"

There has to be some fun in life, and on this board, too. Otherwise everything takes on that nursing home smell of hard-boiled eggs, baby powder, and urine. The next thing you know someone's cranking up the Lawrence Welk or rolling their wheelchair down the cooridoor screaming: "Help me, help me, help me, help me, help me."

No one wants that.

Got to go. Love your group.

Ed

[Roger J Carlson]

Gordon, the mods don't really care if it's "fun" for you. We care only that you honor your promise to not repeat behaviors which got you banned last time. One of those behaviors was talking back to the mods. The ice upon which you are skating is exceptionally thin.

[Maryn]

There is a logical flaw in the college argument, and that is you cannot show cause and effect. Sure a lot of great writers finished high school and college. But you cannot show that the college degree had anything to do with making them great writers.Thank you, thank you.

I would be willing to venture that a lot of great writers ate apples, specifically red delicious apples, but I don't think that's why they became great writers.

Maryn, huge logic fan

[Willowmound]

Gordon, the mods don't really care if it's "fun" for you. [etc]

Well, I for one think Gordon/Geist's post are getting better. I enjoy them. That latest one -- pretty dang good.

And I happen to agree with it.

[Cath]

And I happen to agree with it.

Actually, so do I. It's right and proper that we should push the boundaries and ask questions. It's right and proper that we should discuss and debate issues that are new and vibrant. It's right and proper that people take difference stances and have different opinions on a topic.

What isn't right and proper is covering the same old ground over and over again. That doesn't get us anywhere, except closer to that nursing home.

[Birol]

Geist, "fun" does not come at the expense of others. This board is not about you. You were told that last time; I'm telling you that again this time. I'm also telling you to take a deep breath and step away from this thread. I suggest you listen before your ego further hampers your ability to hear what others are saying.

My actions as a mod are not dependent on your approval, nor are they open to discussion.

[Birol]

And I happen to agree with it.

There are ways to disagree and there are ways to disagree.

[Southern_girl29]

I'm a college dropout. I went in with very high hopes. I tested out of English 101 and 102 and went straight into English 201. I was in the top 25 percent of my high school graduating class. I made nearly perfect scores on the English and reading portions of the ACT. I was awarded a scholarship. In order to support myself, I had to have a job. I was working full-time and going to school full-time. After two years of this, I just couldn't hack it anymore. I dropped out. It's probably one of the biggest disappointments of my life.

I found a full-time job and hated it. I wanted to be writing. I had been the editor of the high school paper and taken journalism classes in college. I scoured the ads for a job writing. When came open at our local newspaper, I applied. I had to take a writing test and a spelling test, and I aced both of those. I came to work as a general assignments reporter. The editors here took me under their wings. I soaked up everything I could. My editor-in-chief gave me a couple of books to read, and I read them. I studied the AP guide and learned a lot from that. I read our newspaper cover to cover. I learned as much as I could. I was here everyday. I didn't give up.

Now, I'm the Lifestyles Editor at this newspaper. I wish I could move up here, but our publisher has a big problem with women in authority. I just interviewed for a position as Features Editor at a daily paper, and I have been told that if I take the job (I'm waiting to find out if they'll be able to come up with the salary I want), I'll be the editor-in-chief when the current one retires in a few months.

Would it have been easier to obtain what I call success in this industry if I had a college degree? Probably, but I worked my tail off to get where I am. I'm very proud of that fact.

I know this isn't fiction writing, but the same ideas pertain to fiction. Study the craft, just as I studied the newspaper. Take constructive criticism from writers who are more knowledgable than you are, as I did from the editors on staff. Read how-to books. It's all the same. You might not succeed, but you might not have succeeded with a college education either.