Tavern Troublemaker

[Red Robin]

In many fantasy novels there is often a character who harasses the MC or other major character in a tavern, whom the MC ignores until such a point where the troublemaker (TT) gets really sauced and threatens the MC. At this point the MC kills the TT with his sword/mace/cunning/magic etc...

This isn't the most common cliché... a subset of the bar-room brawl I suppose, but it is pretty bad. I suppose the TT provides the MC with an opportunity to show how well he can kill drunks.

I suppose many (if not all) minor characters are there for the MC to interact with, and this example might just show laziness. Maybe not.

So what do you say? Is this scene fun to read, or do you moan when it appears.

[Madican]

Well, depending on how its written, where the "world" of the story is, and how common it is for people to hang out in taverns, it can vary.

I have one, and that's because the tavern is the local hang-out, not just because it's a tavern. MC pretty much does what you described, lets himself get thrown around a bit while trying passive defense, and finally just kills the drunk idiot when his own life is in peril.

[JimmyB27]

Why does he have to kill? The guy's a drunk, why not just head butt him in the face until he falls over?

[alleycat]

There are a lot of scenes that are often used (boy meets girl at party, mean girls pick on nice girl in the school lunchroom, man gets taken for "a drive" by mobsters, etc.), because they happen a lot in real life. Barroom brawls are one of them. It's how you do one that counts. For example, I love the opening barroom brawl in The Last Good Kiss (complete with an alcoholic bulldog named Fireball Roberts), even though I've read dozen of books and seen dozens of movies with bar fights.

[lkp]

In theory, there are many different ways you could write this that could be interesting and fresh. In practice, all the versions I have read of this seem to be cliche right down to the wise but jaded tavern keeper and the brash buxom tavern wench. Groan.
One tavern scene that was not a cliche (at least when it first came out) was the barroom scene in the original Star Wars.

[Willowmound]

One tavern scene that was not a cliche (at least when it first came out) was the barroom scene in the original Star Wars.

Of course it was a cliche! Everything in Star Wars was a cliche, and it was so well put together we all still love it. Because it had everything in just the right way. That is a tricky thing to do, and I think Mr Lucas had rather a lot of luck. I mean, look at the new ones.

[waylander]

I've got exactly that as the opening chapter of my fantasy novel. Haven't had any comments from the agents/editors who have reviewed - well actually I have had lots of comments, but they didn't mention this opening scene

[Gillhoughly]

I'm VERY tired of it. It's overused and I groan at each and every flavor of it.

Stevenson had his variation of the tavern bully, so did Dumas, so did most every western out of Hollywood. The one in Shane is a stand-out. You could say the device is a classic, but these days...? Yawn.

I managed to write a fantasy that skipped it altogether. My one tavern scene was the site of a drinking contest and a good time was had by all.

Ever actually GO to a tavern? The management more often than not is well able to deal with troublemakers. So are the regulars who are just there for a drink & some socializing. Even the scummiest joints have their rules and people to enforce them. When patrons get killed it's bad for business!

Fantasy is one thing, pitching reality utterly out the window is another. There are other ways to let a MC prove how tough he/she is. go outside the box and figure out something fresher.

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[kimb68]

Interesting question. The problem with clichés is that the reader already knows how the scene going to play out in advance, especially if all you're trying to do is show how noble/kick-ass the MC is when faced with a drunk, belligerent bully. But if you set it up like a cliché and then take the scene somewhere unexpected, that could be a lot of fun.

Like the Errol Flynn movie of Robin Hood, where he encounters Little John on the log bridge. Little John comes off like a bully at first, they have a fight, but he's a good enough sport to laugh when he is bested and the two join forces after that. So, turning the bully into an ally could be a good twist.

Maybe the MC intends to just teach the bully a lesson, but kills him by accident resulting a whole mess of trouble. Or maybe the bully turns out to be a girl in disguise -- or a scared kid, like in a lot of Westerns. Or a clever con-man who's trying to create a scene to distract attention from a big heist. The drunk bully is a stock character with no depth. Giving him a more interesting motive could really turn the cliché on its head.

[Toothpaste]

I think it is popular because it is a public venue, and the MC gets to show that he/she has restraint but also can kick ass. What's the fun of kicking ass if no one is there to see it? Heck what's the point of self-restraint if no one can admire it?

But it is cliche, and I'm with Gillhoughly with this one. What if you wrote the scene, it looks like it's going to go the way it always goes, and then instead the MC has his ass wupped? It would be playing with convention, which is always fun.

[mscelina]

I live the cliche. I work as a bartender (mostly for a chance to get out of the house) two or three nights a week. When I look at a tavern scene, therefore, I look at it in a different way. If it's not realistic from my years of experience in the business, it gets on my nerves.

First off, if you cause trouble in my bar--out you go! It doesn't matter if I pull the stick out from behind the bar and yell at you or if I call the trolls hanging out in the back room, there will be NO fighting in the bar. Things get broken. That's expensive. And trust me, no one in their right mind goes into the bar business with any sort of tolerance toward things that cost more money.

Second off, it's a rare drunk that gets violent. Most of the time they just think they're funny...and that's no reason to kill someone.

Third, if a weapon is pulled in a crowded bar it certainly isn't going to be bigger than a dagger. Longsword, battleaxe, crossbow? Not likely.

Fourth, drunk people have a habit of trying to break up other drunk people when they're fighting. At that point, whether it's a real bar or ye old fantasy taverne someone who is not drinking intervenes. in my bar,it's the cops. In a fantasy tavern, it's more likely the security trolls in the back room.

Finally, the wise old tavern-owner/sassy, buxom barwench stereotypes. Both have a hardcore basis in reality. Sassy buxom barwenches sell drinks, and that tavern owner is wise enough to know that. In the long run, though, to be successful in any business that deals with alcohol someone who works in a tavern has got to be level headed and cool in an emergency. And, no one goes into the alcohol business without planning to make a buttload of money. money is the bottom line. period. No one deals with drinkers just for the fun of it. Trust me.

I've dealt with more than my share of bar fights. For me, it's get the drunks outside then call the cops. Occasionally I have had a bit of fun accidentally hitting someone with the stick (a depression-era billy club the original owner got from the beat cop after Prohibition ended and the illegal still in the cellar was replaced with totally legal beer) but the rules for barstaff everywhere are pretty much the same: restrain and remove. In the parking lot they can beat each other senseless until the cops show up, just get them away from the mirrors! I can remove a drunk more easily with two fingernails and an earlobe than I could with a sword.

[WriterInChains]

I've been a bartender & cocktail waitress in some pretty rough places (think: big drunk loggers) & mscelina has it right.

Only one thing I'd say differently: if your tavern's in a village/small town, it's more likely the scuffles will turn violent. Also more likely the crowd will just step back and watch like it's a playground fight. If a bunch of guys have known each other since they were kids it's too easy to cuff someone on the ear & think it's playful & have the "cuff-ee" return it with a right hook. They're not out to kill each other it's like 200 pound kids wrestling, but with alcohol: someone usually ends up getting poked in the eye & all hell breaks loose.

But, it's all about the money for sure. Once someone picks up a pool cue or a chair, playtime's over.

[mscelina]

Yep. Amen sister. Fact of the matter is, I don't make any money off of bleeding people.

I've worked in huge dance clubs in big cities and tiny neighborhood bars over the years, and I have to say that bar brawls are kind of rare. The worst fights are actually girl fights. All the scratching and slapping and hair-pulling! Egads! Guy fights are different. The bar I work in now is a small tavern that's been around for eighty years and we have two different crowds. We have the old guy crowd--who started drinking at the bar in the fifties and still show up every day during happy hour. Then we have the late night crowd--the restaurant workers, factory workers, farmers, and barflies. I think you're probably right; small town bars *where everybody knows your name* are more likely to breed bar fights.

[Red Robin]

I'm not actually planning to write a bar scene into my novel, but I am reading one where this has just taken place.

Does the minor character have to die? Probably. After all, manhood has been insulted :)

I think the economics and realism points are well made. You can break these, but you have to do it well. For instance, I always wondered about the canteena scene in Star Wars. Two people were killed, and everyone just goes back to thier drinks? In a way, it comes off as cheesy humour, so it is forgiven.

As a side note- For a great bar brawl scene, look up Korgoth of Barbaria on youtube.

[ClaudiaGray]

I had a "bar ruffian" scene in the first version of my book, in which they harassed the MC and her boyfriend. I hated it for being hackneyed, but I knew I needed something there. As the MC and the boyfriend were already arguing, I changed it so that, instead of being no-good drunks trying to start a fight, the "ruffians" were now guys who were drunk but meant well and were trying to intervene on the MC's behalf. She would have convinced them nothing was wrong, but the love interest is the one who flies off the handle and actually makes it a problem -- which works to reveal something about the love interest's difficult temper. I still wish I had been able to change this more, but I felt a lot better about the scene once the drunk guys had actual motivations -- and were really the good guys in the situation.

[waylander]

Cliched maybe. Effective - I hope so.
If anyone wants to take a look drop me a PM, it is only 1600 words.

[WriterInChains]

I'm not actually planning to write a bar scene into my novel, but I am reading one where this has just taken place.

Does the minor character have to die? Probably. After all, manhood has been insulted :)

I think the economics and realism points are well made. You can break these, but you have to do it well. For instance, I always wondered about the canteena scene in Star Wars. Two people were killed, and everyone just goes back to thier drinks? In a way, it comes off as cheesy humour, so it is forgiven.

As a side note- For a great bar brawl scene, look up Korgoth of Barbaria on youtube.

I think letting the character live but completely humiliated & emasculated would be better, but that's just me. (I only read Dark Urban Fantasy, so take this for what it's worth.)

That part of the cantina scene is right on. I've been to places with bullet holes in the walls & random pieces of the decor (different places than I talk about above :)). After the violence is over, everyone just drifts back to their places & goes back to partying. Unless something was cheap/overly dirty about the fight, you might not even hear anyone talking about it.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I have a tavern "fight" scene in one of my novels. It's not much of a fight, a minor character tries to pull a knife on someone, who promptly turns and beheads him. No muss no fuss, and the barkeep has to clean up. A traditional bar fight just wouldn't have worked.

[Sassee]

I'm pretty indifferent on the bar scene. If it works for you, do it. If it doesn't work, it'll stick out like a sore thumb. I'd try to avoid it though. People get drunk and angry in a lot of other places besides a bar/tavern/pub.

[Red Robin]

People get drunk and angry in a lot of other places besides a bar/tavern/pub.

A lot of people do a lot of things outside of taverns :) That's why I'm avoiding taverns altogether in my novel (though it may appear in a sequel). I think the meet or gathering in the tavern at the beginning of the novel is a result of laziness or lack of imagination. These appear all to often in Dragonlance novels and the like (did I just admit to something terrible - I was young and foolish once too):o

In non-fantasy fiction, I don't know... There may be more options. I don't read much contemporary or science fiction, but a few movie scenes stick out

* In Terminator, when Sarah hides in the discotheque, and the Terminator finds her. Awesome scene.

* The scene where we meet Wolverine in X men went well.

* I had another one in mind but I forgot.

RR

[JoNightshade]

Well, I have to say that I have never written a barroom brawl scene and I never really planned to, but this discussion has been fascinating. Now that I have gathered all of this expertise about barroom etiquette, I almost feel like I WANT to include one! :)

[FennelGiraffe]

The real question to ask is: What purpose does the fight scene serve? How does it move your story forward?

If MC was in the tavern for the purpose of meeting an informant with critical information and the fight frightens the informant away so now MC is farther from his goal than he was before, then keep the scene.

If the scene is there just because it was fun to write, cut it.