When are you done?

[azbikergirl]

As an unpublished fiction author, I wrestle from time to time over the question of whether my manuscript is finished. The story is told, the Is are dotted and Ts crossed. The only remaining question is, "Is this the best I can do?"

My answer is no. Why is it no? Because I'm constantly improving. It's like buying the best computer on the market. Tomorrow it'll be obsolete. My story and my writing improve with every draft (now at #5). Would we benefit by another draft? Probably. Without an experienced professional to tell me that it's not publishable as is, how do I know whether I should do another draft? Can I think of ways to improve it? Sure. But where does it end?

There needs to be an emoticon to show hair being pulled out. :)

[Takvah]

You need feedback. Send out the queries and start to move the process along. It's good to be critical of your own work, but this smacks of overkill.

It's time to GO FOR IT!

:)

[Nateskate]

I feel your pain. And I say that alot, because I tend to feel everyone's pain, especially those who are frustrated at getting through this process.

There really is a done. And perhaps there is a good, better and best. Tolkien took from 1936 to 1953. And it still wasn't done in his mind. Well, there is a point of diminishing returns and near insanity.

Have someone objective look over your work. It could be that your work needs work, or that your work is ready for bookshelves, and another person might see that more clearly, especially someone in the book trade.

[debraji]

Before you put your manuscript out on the market:

- You can run it by your beta readers--people whose opinion you trust.

- If you can find a published writer who will be your mentor, their input could be invaluable.

- You can take it to a workshop and get an unbiased opinion.

[azbikergirl]

I've had the entire ms. critiqued by two aspiring writers, and both had very nice things to say (overall). The most recent of the two told me that, despite its length (141,000 words), she delayed reading the last two chapters because she didn't want it to end. That tells me it's not too long, at least by some standards.

I've sent it to a book doctor for a market evaluation. I should hear back by the end of the week. I'm also considering going through the advanced WDS online workshop with it, but that will only cover the first 50,000 words (just over a third of the story).

I've also recently joined another crit group of experienced writers. It'll take some time to get critiques on the entire thing, but I'm hoping their responses will give me some indication.

Thanks for the replies!

[Jamesaritchie]

Just send it out. You've already done more work than most published writers I know. As for market evaluation, only an agent or an editor can really give you this. No matter what a book doctor says, an agent or editor may love or hate everything about it, and they're the experts on marketability..

If your mansucript is anywhere close to being publishable, any good agent or editor will tell you so, and will tell you how to fix it. If it isn't anywhere close to being puboishable, all the book doctors, beta readers, and owrkshops in the world won't help.

If you keep working until it can't be improved, you'll die of old age before anyone with a checkbook even gets to read it.

[vstrauss]

>>I've sent it to a book doctor for a market evaluation.<<

I hope this is someone with commercial publishing experience, otherwise you may not be getting your money's worth. Even if this book doctor does bring experience to the table, bear in mind that an assessment like this is one person's opinion, and others may disagree. If you're looking to get an idea from this person of whether or not it's publishable, you're going down the wrong road--the way to learn this is to actually try to get it published.

It sounds as if you're one of those perfectionist writers who has a tough time letting go (me too, so I know where you're coming from). Three things. First, if you are like this, you have to learn to accept that in your mind at least, it'll never really be done: there will always be things you'll want to change/improve (this is one reason I can't stand to look at my books once they're in print). Second, experience will teach you to recognize when it's done enough--but this is something it takes time to learn, so don't feel bad about not being able to recognize it now. Third, at some point you just have to hold your nose, make a leap of faith, and throw it out there. Otherwise it will repose on your computer till the end of time.

141,000 words is on the long side for a first novel.

- Victoria

[Euan Harvey]

Heinlein's rules (http://www.sfwriter.com/ow05.htm) (plus one from Robert J. Sawyer) for success in writing are:

Rule One: You Must Write

Rule Two: Finish What You Start

Rule Three: You Must Refrain From Rewriting, Except to Editorial Order

Rule Four: You Must Put Your Story on the Market


Rule Five: You Must Keep it on the Market until it has Sold

Rule Six: Start Working on Something Else

Sounds like you're stuck on three. :D

I know what you mean about improving--when I look back at what I wrote six months ago, it makes me wince sometimes. But those stories are still doing the rounds. I'm still submitting them, even though I know I could (possibly) rewrite them and make them better. But I don't want to be working on the same story (or stories) for the rest of my life.

When I was writing my MA thesis, my supervisor told me that you can always find things to change in a text if you look hard enough, but eventually you get to a point of diminishing returns. If you've reached that point, then you're wasting your time working on that piece of writing, and it's time to move on to the next.

Of course, working out when you've reached that point is another question. :x What I do is keep my drafts, and as soon as I change something back to the way it was in an earlier draft, I stop.

[Writing Again]

No work is ever finished -- But there is a time to quit. For me the time to quit is when the changes I'm making will mean little or nothing to the reader.

[maestrowork]

When you find yourself obsessing over details such as sentence structures or prose or word choices that have nothing to do with actually improving the story or characters, it's time to let go.

Trust me, there's no end to it and you might as well do it for the rest of your life and never see your book in print. Write from the readers' point of view: Would they care about the change? Or is it simply writer's vanity?

And trust me, if you're good enough to find an agent or editor, they WILL ask you to change anyway.

One thing to do is give yourself a deadline. Once the deadline is past, stop. No more mucking with the text. Start submitting it.

[pianoman5]

I think the time to submit is when the work is at least of the minimum publishable standard.

When's that, then? Ah, there's the rub.

Experienced writers know from, well, experience, but the comparative newcomer, still suffering dark, tormented nights of the soul, may have the morbid suspicion that they can still do better, and that they should.

As one of the latter group, for me the moment comes when I've revisited a piece several times, having allowed it time to ferment in between, and finally reach a point where I can't find anything substantial to change according to my latest infusion of enhanced understanding (from these boards plus other resources.)

While clambering up the greasy pole of writerly insight, I've found this to be an exercise rather like painting the Sydney Harbour Bridge. By the time you've got to the end, the flaws at the beginning leap out at you without mercy and demand another coat.

I'm still painting my novel. But at least now I'm using a smaller brush.

[katdad]

We all have the feeling that it can be tweaked that one last time.

What I've found is that I have to distance myself from the work a while, come back to it later. Often I'll find that the suspicions I had for that final final final tweak were unjustified.

In other words, we can revise something to death. And it's not easy to know when to quit, either. We of course want it to be the best we can do, and we're always thinking of that one last change.

But after I've undergone reading my work aloud (reading aloud to myself is one of the final edits I do), then making those changes, that I've about done what I can.

In chemistry, it's called titration to endpoint.

My most recent work, my 2nd novel, was sent to my agent about 3 weeks ago. I've since read the book through once more, and I honestly didn't find anything significant (or even small) that I could have changed.

Let me take that back -- yes I found things I could have changed, but in retrospect, those changes would be twiddling my fingers. None of them would actually have improved the book.

Now, after a book (or article or whatever) is sold, then the editors will come back to you with suggested changes, and usually you'll find that they are for the good.

Just sit back and give it time to percolate, then approach those final tweaks with some fear and trembling.

[Vomaxx]

I'm not the original poster, but thanks to everyone for these comments. I know I have a tendency to "tweak" that could easily become an obsession. I'll stop (as soon as I finish just one last read-through...)

[azbikergirl]

Yes, thanks! Your input has been very helpful.