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Rhush
01-28-2005, 05:54 AM
Do words intended to be in italics need to be regular text that's underlined?

And also, how many spaces do you go down to begin each new chapter?

Its always these little nit picky questions that stump me up.....:rolleyes

katdad
01-28-2005, 05:58 AM
You can keep italics instead of underline unless you're submitting to a specific venue that has certain specs.

After a new chapter title, 2 or 3 blank lines is fine. You don't need to space way down the page.

sc211
01-28-2005, 07:18 AM
Hey Rhush,

I had all the same questions a few months ago and posted my findings here:

p197.ezboard.com/fabsolut...=749.topic (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=749.topic)

James D Macdonald
01-28-2005, 09:38 AM
Italics are indicated by underlining.

At the start of a chapter, drop down one third or half-way down the page.

The correct font is Courier 10 or 12.

One-inch margins all the way around.

Running head with your name/title of book/pagenumber.

Black ink on white paper.

Jamesaritchie
01-28-2005, 11:34 AM
Always indicate italics by underlining. This is standard throughout the industry.

And as James M says, when you start a new chapter, drop halfway down the page. There are reasons for why editors want things as they do, but these things are mainly for the benefit of the copyeditor.

katdad
01-28-2005, 11:54 AM
Always indicate italics by underlining.
I've seen many folks say this in the forum, so I won't dispute it.

However in all the submissions I've ever made for publication (both for pay and for free), I've not been asked to show italics as underline in the last 15 years or so. Not one editor has told me to do this. I will admit that this was once the standard for submission, way back. But not recently.

Nor has my agent told me otherwise. In my original manuscript I put "copyright" in the footer and they asked me to delete that, but otherwise the agency hasn't complained. And I've asked them specifically about format, since it's easy for me to change it.

Maybe I've just been lucky. I've just sent my submissions in a MS-Word file and they took it as is. Nobody griped and my check didn't bounce (ha ha).

But go ahead and underline in place of italics. I'm sure it's equally good.

More important, if you've already sold the piece, be sure to ask the editor for any specific guidelines on formatting, and modify the document accordingly. Then everyone will be happy.

maestrowork
01-28-2005, 09:53 PM
Like I said in a separate thread, there're always exceptions. Some agents and editors probably don't mind at all. But, if you have the industry standard in front of you so you can follow it, why not? Why take a chance?

But DO read the submission guidelines. Some agents/editors do specifically ask for, say, Times Roman instead of Courier (I have seen one example that they ask for Arial!) When in doubt, follow the standard.

Coco82
01-29-2005, 12:15 AM
So you don't do a page break for each chapter? And half way down would be what 5"?

James D Macdonald
01-29-2005, 12:22 AM
Each chapter begins on a new page.

cwfgal
01-29-2005, 01:58 AM
Always indicate italics by underlining. This is standard throughout the industry.

In the manuscript formatting guidelines that HarperCollins sends out to its authors (or at least the one they sent out back in the mid-nineties), it asks that italics be shown as italics and NOT underlined.

Beth

Jamesaritchie
01-29-2005, 04:49 AM
In the manuscript formatting guidelines that HarperCollins sends out to its authors (or at least the one they sent out back in the mid-nineties), it asks that italics be shown as italics and NOT underlined.

Much of HarperCollins editing and publishing is done electronically. This means using italics instead of underlining. But doing so is still teh wild exception, rather than the rule. Using undelining is still the industry standard, and what the vast majority of print editors want.

If something is edited or published electronically, you should generally use italics, but anything edited by hand almost always requires underlining.

maestrowork
01-29-2005, 12:35 PM
Those who do the editing electronically would probably ask for Times Roman and italics. However, it's an easy global search and replace. A few clicks on Word and you're done.

cwfgal
01-31-2005, 04:36 AM
Much of HarperCollins editing and publishing is done electronically. This means using italics instead of underlining. But doing so is still teh wild exception, rather than the rule. Using undelining is still the industry standard, and what the vast majority of print editors want.

My apologies if I sound argumentative but I wonder if this is still true today. I think it was true a decade or so ago but I would think most publishers have electronic editing and publishing capabilities these days given that it's more efficient, quicker, and costs less. Maybe not.

I'm curious...for those here who are published with a particular house, does your publisher request your mansucript in hard copy, disk copy or both? And if you have that house's formatting guidelines, what do they say with regard to italics?

Beth

SRHowen
01-31-2005, 06:10 AM
we had this discussion already--I even got nasty name calling ez board mail over it.

People who are already published have answered this, James D and James R have both said it is industry standard. My agent, in NYC, with industry connections has said so.

Now, say Harper says when it accepts a ms that it wants things in Times and in Italics--it is easy for you to fix it. If a place does want the industry standard and you send it in none industry, they may look at it as an author who doesn't have a real clue. Which can count against you--the odds are hard to beat to start with why handicap yourself? While I am sure those places that ask for an exception at some point will see industry standard and accept is -- knowing they are an exception.

Why would you want to go with the exception vs the standard, unless guidelines call for it?

It's only smart business sense to use a standard widely accepted format in any business dealing than to go with an exception.

Shawn

Jamesaritchie
01-31-2005, 06:41 AM
<<My apologies if I sound argumentative but I wonder if this is still true today. >>

It's still true with all the editors I work with, book and magazine. Nearly all major publishers still edit manuscripts by hand, and hardcopies of the manuscript are passed back and forth between editor and writer. It's easier, and it just seems to work better. And when editing by hand, you need proofreader's marks. Underlining is a proofreader's mark, and it's what editors and copyeditors are trained to look for.

It's only after the copyediting and rewriting are done that everything goes electronic.

There's also another consideration. You are going to receive gallleys of your novel. If there's a sentence you find in the galleys you think should be italicized, the only possible way to show this is by underlining that sentence.

For that matter, the same thing is true in the copyedited manuscript.

And the simple truth is, with most fonts it's very easy to overlook italics. Times New Roman has a distinctive style of italics that make it difficult to overlook, but Courier, Ariel, and similar fonts lack this.

Trouble is, Times makes for tough editing and reading in long manuscripts. The words are so small, and there are so many on a page, that finding room to insert proofreader's marks is a pain. It gives me a severe headache after a while.

Times really crams the letters and words together. Four lines of Courier 12 is only three lines of Times New Roman 12, and this really makes editing difficult in a long manuscript. More and more editors who accept Times are asking that Times 14 be used, and this makes sense.

Even Times 14 uses less space than Courier 12, but it does help considerably.

stormie267
01-31-2005, 08:06 PM
To be safe, 12 pt., dark courier, underline any words that need to be italicized, is the best way to go.

There is a site that someone once posted, that takes you to where you can download dark courier font, since some MS Word programs (or all?) don't have it listed. If anyone knows the link, please post it. I used it, downloaded it, and don't have the link anymore.

cwfgal
01-31-2005, 09:07 PM
It's still true with all the editors I work with, book and magazine. Nearly all major publishers still edit manuscripts by hand, and hardcopies of the manuscript are passed back and forth between editor and writer. It's easier, and it just seems to work better. And when editing by hand, you need proofreader's marks. Underlining is a proofreader's mark, and it's what editors and copyeditors are trained to look for.

I respect that, it's just that my experience has been different. I've done a lot of freelancing. I have sold over 100 articles to various magazine editors and other entities -- all written in Word using the basic bells and whistles of formatting and Times New Roman for a font. (Admittedly, the magazines I've written for were all small and mostly regional.) I've also written brochure copy and newsletter copy for several companies. The three novels I've had published were written the same way--in Word using the basic bells and whistles. For several years I was a contributing editor and wrote book reviews for B&N.com (over 200 of them) and everything I wrote for them was done the same way.

Not a single agent or editor I've written for or submitted to has ever asked for underlining rather than italics, or commented on my use of italics rather than underlining. Or on my use of Times New Roman, which is the only font I have ever used. Given my publishing credits and the fact that I was able to support myself solely through writing for many years (and had to turn down assignments a time or two because I had all I could handle), I think it's safe to say that doing it that way didn't harm me and that perhaps the "old rules" way of doing things is in the process of changing along with advancements in printing and publishing technology.

There's also another consideration. You are going to receive gallleys of your novel. If there's a sentence you find in the galleys you think should be italicized, the only possible way to show this is by underlining that sentence.

Proofreading marks to indicate italics (if I remember correctly) is more than just underlining what you want italicized. You also have to indicate "ital" in the margin next to the line that needs it.

Trouble is, Times makes for tough editing and reading in long manuscripts. The words are so small, and there are so many on a page, that finding room to insert proofreader's marks is a pain. It gives me a severe headache after a while.

I was always taught that proofreader's marks go in the margins, never in the line of type itself (hence those generous margins). All that goes in the line itself are lines (underlines, deletion lines, transposition lines), carets, and maybe the occasional circled or bracketed word. If someone is putting proofreader marks in the lines of text, then I can see where a wide spaced font might be better but I would think it would be terribly confusing with ANY font done that way.

Again, I'm not trying to rabblerouse. It's just that my experience has been so vastly different from what everyone says is the "must" way to do it, that I can't help but wonder if some of those musts might be changing.

Just food for thought.

Beth

Gala
01-31-2005, 09:31 PM
Jamesaritchie

"Nearly all major publishers still edit manuscripts by hand,"

1. How many major publishers are there?
2. How do you know this?

I'm not doubting your experience; indeed, I'm curious about the number of "majors". Thanks.

Jamesaritchie
01-31-2005, 10:12 PM
<<Not a single agent or editor I've written for or submitted to has ever asked for underlining rather than italics, or commented on my use of italics rather than underlining. >>

No, and they probably won't, even if that's what they prefer. Especially magazine editors. Pieces for magazines are almost always short, and fairly easy to edit.

But you need to understand that such things are seldom the territory of the edior, and aren't done just for the editor. Editors are very, very seldom the ones who turn something from a manuscript into a published piece.

Screwups that happen in published pieces, typos and the like, often happen precisely because of such things as italics instead of underlining.

And very few magazines writers ever see a copyedited version of their manuscript, so they miss seeing where the ediotr has underlined the italics, which most do.

And, of course, many magazine editors have gotten around this problem by asking for some form of electronic version of a story or article that has been accepted. With this, they can print out and edit as they see fit. But novels are a whole nother story.

<<Proofreading marks to indicate italics (if I remember correctly) is more than just underlining what you want italicized. You also have to indicate "ital" in the margin next to the line that needs it. >>

The "ital" is the magin note, but it isn't necessary for the writer to put this in. It never has been. Every editor, and every copyeditor in the world knows what underlining means, even without the margin note. I'd be surprised if there's an editor alive who doesn't know. I've certainly never met one. And hope to God I never do.

<<I was always taught that proofreader's marks go in the margins, never in the line of type itself (hence those generous margins). All that goes in the line itself are lines (underlines, deletion lines, transposition lines), carets, and maybe the occasional circled or bracketed word.>>

All the things you mention ARE proofreader's marks. They come in two varieties, the ones you use in the line of type iteself, and these do take more room than Times easily provides, and the proofreader's marks that go in the margins.
But carets, brackets, and many other marks, are proofreader's marks. There are forty-two commonly used proofreader's marks that go in the lines themselves, and I can tell you from a good deal of editing experience that I hate like blazes trying to use them with Times New Roman. You have to be extremly precise in where you place one of the copyeditor won't know what to do.

It isn't so bad in a very short manuscript, if I don't like the font, I'll scan it and change it, but in something novel length, well, I simply won't do it.

All I can tell you is to look around at the many, many up to date guidelines availble all over the internet. They're pretty much unanimous to saying to use Courier, and in saying not to use italics in a manuscript.

It isn't that you can't get away with it, you can. Just like writers working on typewriters used to be able to get away with using Elite, rather than Pica. But even in this day and age it can still be a pain in the butt, and can cause problems somewhere between the manuscript and the published piece.

Some things never change. One of them is the size of Times New Roman. It bunches way the heck too many words on a page. The industry standard is also still to count each page as having 250 words, and you can't do this with Times, either.
You can only do this with Courier 12, one inch margins, and twenty-five lines per page.

There are up to date guidelines all over the internet that preach over and over to use Courier 12, and to underline in a manuscript. Editors expect writers to read these. It makes life easier for everyone. But editors aren't going to complain to writers who use Times and who use italics. Life is too short, most writers get it right, anyway, and some editors don't care. Most copyeditors, on the other hand, do care. But they come on down the line and seldom get the chance to say anything to the writer, at least until it's way too late for such things to matter.

The truth is, the only reason Times has become popular is because word processors come defaulted to Times. Word processors were not designed for professional writers and editors, but for students, professors, and scientists. But since word processors are defauted to Times, many new writers use it. Editors are simply throwing in the towel because of this, but in print, Times is just a pain for many editors to edit and read, especially in long manuscripts.

I only know two editors who reject anything that comes in in Times, but I know a lot of editors who really wish it would go away, even though they sigh and read it. And I know one, Robert J. Sawyer, who has quite a rant somewhere on his website about writers who use times and italics. I do know one print editor who prefers Times, but she's a definite minority.

Same thing with italics. It's just too easy to overlook them, especially when an editor is trained to look for the underline. That underline only means one thing, "put this in italics." And you can't miss seeing it, like you can actual italics. When a writer uses actual italics, every editor I know goes through the manuscript and underlines those italics so the copyeditor won't miss them.

vstrauss
01-31-2005, 10:47 PM
Harper edits fiction mss. in hardcopy. This is true for most of the larger publishers. I can't speak to nonfiction, never having published a nonfiction manuscript, but I'd imagine it's the same.

Other kinds of books--travel books, for instance--are done electronically. My mom was an editor at Frommer for a number of years, and they did all their editing electronically.

In the one ms. where I used italics instead of underlining, the copy editor underlined the italicized words as well as putting "ital" in the margin. But about halfway through proofing the CE'd manuscript I realized she'd missed a good number of my italics. I had to go through the whole ms. specifically looking for them. I went back to underlining after that. Apart from any other issues, underlining is just more practical where editing will be done on hardcopy.

- Victoria

ChunkyC
02-01-2005, 01:42 AM
Excellent post, James A.

The bottom line is that using the industry standard minimizes the odds of annoying those on the receiving end of your submission. One should always try to play russian roulette with the gun containing the least number of bullets.

three seven
02-03-2005, 07:33 PM
So, um... what if you wanted a word to be underlined?

maestrowork
02-03-2005, 08:13 PM
Underline is not a common format in fiction. But, if you really want something underlined, I believe you use a wavy or double line.