Co-authors

[Chasing the Horizon]

I have a rather odd situation. I recently completed my first novel and will be querying agents once I complete the revisions. The problem is, I absolutely cannot be the contact for the agents. First, I'm completely impossible to get in touch with. I don't have a phone and never check my e-mail. I'm never around during normal business hours even for my family to give me the message if an agent were to call.

The agents need to contact my mother, because she's the exact opposite. She always answers her phone and checks her e-mail everyday. We live together, so she can tell me what's up and ask me questions easily.

I want my mother to be the contact throughout the process if I'm lucky enough to get an agent and publisher. Not only because she's easy to get in touch with, but also because she is very diplomatic. I know I'm a difficult person to work with, and have always thought it likely that an agent would want my manuscript, but change their mind after talking with me. I tend to come off as very arrogant and opinionated, particularly on the phone. I can easily see myself getting into an argument with an agent or editor simply because of personality conflicts.

So how should I go about stating this in a query or cover letter? I need my mother to have the power to say yes/no on issues involving the MS, but I have to have credit as well, since I'm the one actually writing. I've been thinking I should list her as a co-author, so the arrangement doesn't look odd to agents. It's fine for her to have a share in the advance and royalties as well. A lot of the ideas in the book were hers anyway, but I'm the actual writer.

So how do I do this so it doesn't look weird?

[JoNightshade]

First, I'm completely impossible to get in touch with. I don't have a phone and never check my e-mail. I'm never around during normal business hours even for my family to give me the message if an agent were to call.

I don't really have an answer for you, but I'm just curious. What the heck do you do? I mean, as your occupation???

[Danger Jane]

Well

I'd just create an email account for business (writing) use and maybe invest in a pay as you go cell phone. And maybe also yoga classes. Meditation, pre-conversation.

[johnzakour]

Just have your mom take a message.

Work on mellowing the attitude.

[ORION]

I will tell you if you do get an agent or editor you WILL have to be available and you WILL have to develop a professional attitude. Working with an agent for the submission process and with an editor during production requires much time and communication.
It also requires a business sense for your book to do well.

[maddythemad]

Yeah, I would work on not coming across as arrogant and opinionated, not trying to figure out a way to get your mom to handle all your calls. I mean, say your book sells, you can't very well send her on the author tour, can you?

[Chasing the Horizon]

I don't really have an answer for you, but I'm just curious. What the heck do you do? I mean, as your occupation???
I quit working last year to write full time (since others in my household work). Before that I worked in commercial cleaning, then as my mother's assistant in real estate, doing all the computer work and driving. Unless I didn't show up when I was supposed to, why would work need to call me anyway?

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my initial post. My mother WILL be the contact for agents and editors, there's no doubt there. I'm not much better at returning messages then I am at checking my e-mail (I absolutely HATE talking on the phone, so I always put it off, and off, and off....). Should I make her co-author and how do I state that in a query?

[JoNightshade]

I quit working last year to write full time (since others in my household work).

Okay so now my question is, if you're writing full time, how the heck are you not at home to answer calls?

I can understand about hating to talk on the phone-- I avoid it like the plague-- but if someone were calling me to offer a book deal? I'd return it!

Here's an idea, though: Many authors use pen names. Submit your work as if your mom were the author, and use your name as the pen name. Generally this is indicated under the title of your manuscript (while your "real name" would be everywhere else). So they would respond to your mom and contact her rather than you, but if you got published, it would be your name on the manuscript.

[Chasing the Horizon]

Yeah, I would work on not coming across as arrogant and opinionated, not trying to figure out a way to get your mom to handle all your calls. I mean, say your book sells, you can't very well send her on the author tour, can you?
I'm difficult to work with, not difficult to talk to. I actually come across very nice to people who have no authority over me. I briefly worked at a motel/apartment complex a few years ago. All the customers/guests loved me. My boss and coworkers hated me. The same thing happened when I worked real estate with my mother. I got on fine with most of the clients, but the other people in our office absolutely despised me (a feeling which was quite mutual). I would probably enjoy touring, but I'll never get there if I fight with the agent and editor.

[Chasing the Horizon]

Okay so now my question is, if you're writing full time, how the heck are you not at home to answer calls?
My family doesn't have a home phone. Everyone uses their cell phones, except me. I leave my cell phone in my car so I always have it when I'm out. Otherwise I'd forget it and I just know that would be the day the car breaks down in some godforsaken place, miles from any phone, like something out of a horror novel....

I can understand about hating to talk on the phone-- I avoid it like the plague-- but if someone were calling me to offer a book deal? I'd return it! You see, I really don't care about getting published. I'd just as soon write the best book I could, print it out, put in a pretty binder, and keep in my desk drawer forever. However, my family disagrees.

Here's an idea, though: Many authors use pen names. Submit your work as if your mom were the author, and use your name as the pen name. Generally this is indicated under the title of your manuscript (while your "real name" would be everywhere else). So they would respond to your mom and contact her rather than you, but if you got published, it would be your name on the manuscript.I hadn't thought of that, but I'll definitely keep it in mind. Thanks. :)

[johnzakour]

Sounds to me like your mother is more of a manager than a co-writer.

[katiemac]

Give them your mother's e-mail address. Any interested parties will still use your name as the contact. It's not as though they check who owns the e-mail account. Or create a new, business-only e-mail address and give your mother the password. It will be easy enough for your mother to correspond with them in an e-mail if you can't. Although, if agents are responding to you in e-mail, they'll expect a delay anyway, so you could answer them yourself.

If they call you on the phone, your mother could pretend to be you, I suppose, but I really think it would be best to speak with them yourself.

In any query letter, you could add that the phone number is not a personal line, and it would be appropriate to leave a detailed message with anyone who answers. If you get a message, it would give you time to go over it with your mother to come up with a diplomatic response, if need be.

[katiemac]

Here's an idea, though: Many authors use pen names. Submit your work as if your mom were the author, and use your name as the pen name. Generally this is indicated under the title of your manuscript (while your "real name" would be everywhere else). So they would respond to your mom and contact her rather than you, but if you got published, it would be your name on the manuscript.

Keep in mind that with this scenario, your mother's name is the one that would appear on the checks. She'd have to sign the contracts, everything.

[sunandshadow]

I would list her as your secretary

[Garpy]

I would think any of the above arrangements would quickly prove a turn off to a prospective agent/editor. They would expect to have an open line of communication with the author, and not have to play chinese whispers through someone else. Seriously....this could be an insurmountable obstacle. In this situation, you can either...

1. Change your attitude. C'mon, it's not so hard. Eat a little humble pie until you're some bigshot best selling author, then you can be as difficult as you want.

2. Accept you'll never find an agent, and be happy just writing for yourself.

[job]

In practical terms,
what one does is get a telephone answering machine and a business e-mail address.
One checks them every day.


In practical terms,
one talks, on the phone, once, in a polite, businesslike manner to the agent and editor. This conversation takes maybe 20 or 30 minutes.
After that one corresponds entirely by e-mail and snail mail.

Nobody else can hold that talk with the agent and editor.
It has to be the writer
because the conversation is about writing.


If it is truly impossible for you to talk on the telephone, once, for twenty minutes,
or respond in a timely fashion to e-mails,
then do not put your telephone number and e-mail address on the submission.

Correspond only by snail mail.

If your writing is good enough, you will find someone who will deal with you on this basis.

[Red Robin]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my initial post. My mother WILL be the contact for agents and editors, there's no doubt there. I'm not much better at returning messages then I am at checking my e-mail (I absolutely HATE talking on the phone, so I always put it off, and off, and off....). Should I make her co-author and how do I state that in a query?

You were clear, but it doesn't change the facts. Listen to these people! If you can't develop a professional attitude you won't get anywhere. You can't play diva until you are a diva.

Get a phone. You don't have to answer it as your machine can. You can call back at your leisure. And as for hating to check your email... ??!! To bad. Not every part of a job is fun but you have to do it. Also, I can't imagine an agent and editor going through your mother. It won't work. Period. If it help you any, they are not your bosses, think of them as your partners in crime.

[Inkdaub]

I don't know. I would list your mother as preferred contact person as your secretary or whatever. I'd also prepare myself to talk on the phone with any interested parties myself.

[RLSMiller]

Sounds a bit like you want to have your cake and eat it too. As far as I am aware, you don't have any disabilities which prevent you from using the phone or checking your e-mail, and this reluctance is a matter of personal preference. Well, I'm afraid its unreasonable to expect life to always be on our terms.

Sometimes we have to do things we don't like and sometimes we have to change how we behave to fit into an environment. I don't really like this idea of being 'difficult to work with.' Is someone/something else in control of the way you act? If not, I don't see how you can use that as an excuse when it's all up to you how you act and, to an extent, how people perceive you. It sounds like you're just being stubborn. Personally, I would think that when you really want something in life, you do everything in your power to achieve what you want, and if that means changing the way you are, then so be it. Otherwise, you don't really want it enough, do you?

Seeing as you've said you don't actually care about being published anyway, and it's more of a family thing, well... I don't know what to say about that. I don't like the idea of relying on other people to motivate and direct you in life - I'm quite an individualistic person in that respect. If you are a great writer, it does seem impractical to 'waste' that talent and not seek publication, and I would think you should be able to reach that conclusion yourself without your family pushing you.

At the end of the day, unless you get lucky, you are unlikely to achieve great success in life without being 100% committed to what you want. And in this particular case, I wouldn't have thought many agents or publishers would want to work with someone who isn't passionate about their work and the prospect of publication, and therefore willing to sacrifice comfort/step outside their boundaries to achieve that end. While writing may be a solitary effort, publication is a team effort, and being 'difficult to work with' is just setting yourself up for failure.

Going off on a tangent here, but if it helps, I hate being told what to do as well. However, I've learned over the years that sometimes people do talk sense and are worth listening to. And when there are times that I think I know better than someone else, I either approach them about it and discuss it, or humour them and do what they say, saving hassle. It's all a matter of ego, I guess. The mature thing is knowing how and when to keep the monster in check. After all, humility goes a long way in social situations. We all have egos, small or large, and bruising other people's to protect your own is never a good thing to do.

I don't know if any of this applies to you or not. It's unfair for me to make a character judgment based on a few posts, but on the off chance that it helps you or someone else, I thought I'd say it anyway. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful regarding practical matters. I guess you could list your Mother as a secretary or co-author, but at some point an agent or publisher will need to talk to you, and if you refuse they may just get irritated by the circumstances and forget it. Plus, listing her as a co-author when she hasn't actually helped write the piece is technically a lie. All the advice I've read has suggested being totally upfront about things.

[johnzakour]

Yeah, if you REALLY want this you're going to have to leave the attitude at the door.

If you are deemed hard to work with then people won't want to work with you no matter how much talent you may have. (See Lindsey Lohan for details.) Why should they? I am sure there are many other writers out there just as talented as you are but those writers are cooperative and open to communication. Publishers and agents literally have people knocking at their doors wanting to be published. They have no shortage of talent to choose from. Why pick somebody who is hard to deal with or doesn't want to talk to them?

If you were an agent or publisher what would you do when dealing with a person like you?

[lkp]

Why would any agent or editor agree to this kind of relationship? What's in it for them? Every change, every suggestion is going to have to be worked through at least two phone calls, separated over a period of time: Agent makes suggestion for revision to mother. Mother tells writer. Writer tells mother what to answer, maybe yes, maybe no, maybe some new suggestion. Mother phones agent. Lather, rinse, repeat. Who would agree to work that way?
Since you don't care about publication, I'd save yourself the hassle and just Lulu the thing.

[Namatu]

Keep in mind that with this scenario, your mother's name is the one that would appear on the checks. She'd have to sign the contracts, everything.
And pay the taxes. If you end up with a runaway bestseller, your mom can't just sign the checks over to you or you'll be taxed twice for the money. It's a financial morass.

If you do decide to list your mother as your coauthor, keep in mind that this may not preclude you from a phone conversation with an agent or publisher. I coauthored a book and before we signed with an agency, we had a phone conference to go over all questions and discuss expectations. You could talk as little as possible there though. ;)

For disclosure of coauthorship, we listed both of our names on the query letter and title page of the manuscript, and we used "we" in the query letter. That sufficed.

[Mud Dauber]

You see, I really don't care about getting published. I'd just as soon write the best book I could, print it out, put in a pretty binder, and keep in my desk drawer forever. However, my family disagrees.


I think YOU have to want it in order for it to happen.

JMHO

[Cindyh2k]

I think YOU have to want it in order for it to happen.

I second that - if YOU don't even want to be published, then why bother? There are plenty of people out here who DO want to be published and are willing to do the work involved.

But, one thing I didn't understand. You say you quit your job so that you could write full-time because other people in the house work - yet, you don't care about being published? Did you ever stop to think that the people that want you to get published may also want you to do your share as far as household finances? And, they may not understand why you want to quit your job to write if all you want to do is 'stuff it in a drawer'?

Just my humble opinion.

[WordGypsy]

Are you KIDDING me?! The other people in this forum may be all supportive all the time but come on. I'm not about to sugar coat this. You're acting like a spoiled child. Basically you're not doing these things because you don't feel like it. You could easily check your email once a day. You could keep the cell phone in a pocket or taped to your friggin hand for all I care. You decided to take a year off because "other people in your house are working." So you don't contribute at all? I'm thinking you're very young, still letting mommy fight all your battles for you. Time to grow up. If you want to be published then you have to deal with all that comes along with that. If you're not willing to do that then there's always self publishing. Publish America will work with anyone right??? Have you sent your ms out to anyone besides your family for feedback? Mom always says it's good enough to be published. Especially since she wouldn't want to see you throwing a hissy fit with arms and legs pounding the floor if she dared suggest some edits (GAWD forbid!!). Grow up. My advice? Shelve it for ten years and when you're mature enough to handle it, send it out again.

[Gillhoughly]

What the others said. If you have a diagnosed condition like anthropophobia, then get treatment.

If you want to be a pro in this business, act like one.

The curmudgeon stuff is not the least bit charming to the suits who sign the checks. If you can't get past that, then they will buy books from another writer who can.

This IS a business. You are self-employed in it. You have to personally look after it or just find some other job.

If your mom answers the phone she needs to call YOU over to do the talking.

She is not your collaborator, co-author, or free secretary.

Publishers and agents will not just want to deal directly with you, they HAVE to--it will be your name on the contract, not mommy's.

You do what it takes to put on a professional attitude and talk directly and politely to the people involved.

They are not ogres, they are ordinary people who will treat you with respect, given half a chance.

If they like your words they are already primed to like you! :D

Some eccentricity is allowed in this business; we are creative types and can be wonderfully strange.

But I'm betting the whole of my next advance check that a NAME like J.K. Rowling is totally available for a chat when her agent rings up.

Good luck.

[WordGypsy]

Also, if you had enough time to post here almost 300 times in six months I think you can take ten seconds to check email, no??

[Shady Lane]

I mean, I basically agree with Gilhougly, but I don't understand why you can't just give them your mother's email and phone and let them assume you live with her. I'm sure the unpublished writer who can't afford his own place is pretty common. And, well...if anyone ever called me, it'd probably be my mom picking up the phone. I don't think it's anything to stress about.

[herdon]

You are telling them you are going to be a pain in the butt to work with and that the editing process is going to be like pulling teeth because you refuse to work directly with them -- Oh, I'm sure they'll be quite happy to work with you!

I'm going to have to go with the call to grow up. If you have personality issues then change them. If you have psychological issues then seek professional help.

[thepainpasses]

Personally, if I were a publisher/agent and the author didn't care enough to find a way to deal with me directly, I don't think I'd care enough to take the time to deal with them.

[Willowmound]

Wow, this turned into public-flogging thread!

[Cindyh2k]

Wow, this turned into public-flogging thread!

I don't think so - but, the gist of it is, if you want anything in life, you have to get up and get it - and if you don't want it, then why are you even putting forth the effort.

Becoming a published author is a hard thing to do - it is also something that you have to be committed to. It's not something that someone else can do for you.

I don't like to talk to people a lot of times - sometimes, I don't like to leave my house because I will have to deal with people - but, I also realize that if something needs to be done, it needs to be done - I can't just put the responsibility off on someone else. If I want to get a book published, then I have to submit the queries and I have to talk to an agent and I have to deal with contracts and publicity and everything else that comes along.

It's like saying - I want to open a specialty shop - but, I want someone else to do everything - just be sure to put my name on it and send me the money. I'll sit here and wait for you to get it done - just let me know. But, I really don't care if it gets done or not.

[Sassenach]

You see, I really don't care about getting published. I'd just as soon write the best book I could, print it out, put in a pretty binder, and keep in my desk drawer forever. However, my family disagrees.



Tell them that. If they don't like it, too bad.

[Red Robin]

No, I don't think this thread is becoming a flame. I didn't want to be overly critical in case I came off sounding like a troll. But there are some serious issues here. As I understand it, you live with your mother, have no job, and wish to write professionally, but don't care if you get published. Are you difficult to contact because you are at school? You can not ask that others not see this as very self centred.

The "are you crazy" queries are valid. If you have some sort of chemical or psychological issues, get some help. Don't be embarrassed. Writers are pretty crazy for the most part anyway.

[job]

I dunnoh. I've been trying to work out some way this writer could get published.

The problem is not this line of communication or that line or who holds the phone cord.
It's that the poster is playing around with a private hobby

(which is fine, of course, and a hobby is good self-realization and enjoyable and my hobby, as the whore said to Messalina, is gardening, but the whole hobby mentality is pretty much incompatible with getting published in much the same way that toodling back and forth to the store in the Mazda is not going to get you to the NASCAR finals even though both activities involve being behind the wheel of a car and you think one must be like the other for that reason, but they are not.)

This 'hobby attitude' is going to leak through if the poster ever talks directly to an agent.
It will become sadly apparent the first time an important email gets ignored for a week.

So maybe the only chance -- and this is slim chance indeed -- is to stick to snail mail. Snail mail might hide a lack of motivation and discipline for a good long time.

And there must be some folks who do snail. There must be rare and exceptionally talented folks on farms in the Yukon, or doing a dime in the State hoosegow, or keeping the world safe for democracy in Kabul, or serving in the Peace Corp in the upper Amazon basin who submit and publish by snail.
The operative words here being exceptionally talented, of course.

[ClaudiaGray]

The only way this approach would ever work is if you create some mystique around the manuscript and writer -- a mysterious pseudonym, a strange and murky life story, etc. -- with a manuscript that would benefit from that kind of mystique. (Some horror, yes. Chick lit, no. Etc.) However, that mystique would be pretty much destroyed the moment your mother starts serving as go-between.

Agents and editors are, ideally, people with whom you form a real working relationship; they do not simply sell and buy projects, but work with you to make your writing both better and more marketable. Shutting yourself off from that kind of give and take makes it not only unlikely that you would ever get an agent or publisher but virtually impossible that you would be able to build a career from there.

If you're genuinely happy as a hobbyist writer, then I say enjoy yourself. There's nothing wrong with writing for fun, and eventually you can make your family see that.

[sfecphory]

Garpy's advice is spot on.

I would think any of the above arrangements would quickly prove a turn off to a prospective agent/editor. They would expect to have an open line of communication with the author, and not have to play chinese whispers through someone else. Seriously....this could be an insurmountable obstacle. In this situation, you can either...

1. Change your attitude. C'mon, it's not so hard. Eat a little humble pie until you're some bigshot best selling author, then you can be as difficult as you want.

2. Accept you'll never find an agent, and be happy just writing for yourself.

[Linda Adams]

I'll second what everyone else is saying. Your mother can't do everything for you. What are you going to do if she goes on vacation somewhere and is gone for two weeks when an agent calls with a hot deadline? What are you going to do when you have a book signing and people come up to the table? You can't build relationships or make sales if you can't communicate effectively yourself.

The skills can be learned. You might try Toastmasters. There are clubs all over that practice giving prepared and impromptu speeches, some of which are evaluated. That'll give you a lot of skills that will help you deal with people better and more effectively. But a thing you can do right now that will make a difference is simply to smile at people. If you're in the grocery story, smile at the checker. If you have to go through a guard gate every morning, smile at the guard and say hi.

[batgirl]

I don't know whether I have anything helpful to say, but I have some sympathy for the OP's position.
I'm co-writing with an old and dear friend, a talented writer who simply can't hack the submission / rejection stress. My friend copes well with other aspects of her life - she works temp and adapts quickly to all sorts of office situations, she's organised and efficient in her part-time position as a PA, she's been interviewed on local radio and tv as spokesperson for her church group, and so on. She's completed several novels and short stories, which I think are quite good (and I'm not a soft critiquer).
But she has this one weak point. When she sends out a submission, she gets anxious enough that she has trouble writing (though she keeps her paid work going without trouble), and when she gets a rejection, she falls into depression and finds it nearly impossible to write for a few weeks.
So, with the co-written novel, I'm doing the submitting. We discussed a number of possible publishers, and I'm going through them, without updating her unless she requests it. When I run out of publishers who accept unagented subs, I'll discuss agents with her, and continue.
Yes, I really am the co-writer, and that makes some difference, but not a lot.
Hm. What if a writer had Tourette's Syndrome? Would that be considered a legit reason for having a frontman?
-Barbara

[herdon]

I don't know whether I have anything helpful to say, but I have some sympathy for the OP's position.
I'm co-writing with an old and dear friend, a talented writer who simply can't hack the submission / rejection stress.


I see a big difference between your friend and the OP. She isn't refusing to work with someone -- which is intrigal to the editor-agent-writer process.

Have you talked to your friend about possibly using you to submit her work for her? If you would be willing, I don't see any issue with that at all.

Also, I would suggest she read Awareness by Anthony De Mello. It might help a little with her anxiety issues. It's a great book merging philosophy, spirituality and psychology.

[justpat]

Just list your Mom's number as yours with no further explanation required. She can explain to anyone who calls that you are working or otherwise "indisposed" but can take a message.

[johnzakour]

Just list your Mom's number as yours with no further explanation required. She can explain to anyone who calls that you are working or otherwise "indisposed" but can take a message.

True, but you will have to talk to an agent and a publisher sooner rather than later.

So you're going to have to learn to tone the ego down. I little confidence is good but agents and publishers don't like attitude especially from somebody who has sold nothing.

Part of the skill set that an author needs is being able to communicate with their agent and publisher.

[katiemac]

Okay. Just because I can see this spinning downward very quickly, please everyone take a minute and breathe before you respond. Respect your fellow writer.

Kumbaya and all. Kay? Okay.

[Chasing the Horizon]

Well, you all can flame all you want because it doesn't bother me. Yes, I am simply trying to avoid a bunch of stuff I despise doing, and make the process easier on everyone. Unlike some others, I at least am aware of the fact I come off as an immature b!tch at times.

I have decided to make my Mom co-author, so if anyone has any more advice on how this works (signing contracts, making editorial changes, name on the cover, etc.), I would appreciate it.

If you'd rather keep flaming, then go ahead. I don't care. Just please try not to get my thread locked until I have some real answers, OK? :)

[Red Robin]

Flame thread?? Just look at Gillhoughly's eye. Now that was a flame.

[johnzakour]

Well, you all can flame all you want because it doesn't bother me. Yes, I am simply trying to avoid a bunch of stuff I despise doing, and make the process easier on everyone. Unlike some others, I at least am aware of the fact I come off as an immature b!tch at times.


Well, it is a good sign that you are aware of the sitatution. Hopefully you are willing to work on it.


I have decided to make my Mom co-author, so if anyone has any more advice on how this works (signing contracts, making editorial changes, name on the cover, etc.), I would appreciate it.


The process itself is pretty painless especially if you and your co-writer live near each other and can easily get together to discuss and work on the project.

As for signing, you both sign everything.

As for names of the cover, both your names appear. You can either list them alphabetically or by who contributed the most. NOTE: some people warned me that books with two authors don't sell as well. I'm not sure how true that if. The other option you may want to think about is by YOUR NAME with YOUR MOM'S NAME. Some people prefer this.

The editorial changes is where the true fun comes. The editors call one of you (or both of you, editors love conference calls) and give you their suggestions. Then you and the cowriter discuss the best way to impliment these changes. Here is where your diplomatic skills will once again come into place as you each try to convince the other your way is the better way.

When going over the galleys you have two options, have the publisher send you two copies and you each edit your own but this can be repetitive. If you two are in the same area it's probably best if you work on just one galley copy one edits a page and then gives that page to the other to see if they pick up anything.

As for money checks will come to both of you in each other your name (or whatever names you choose.) The % you each get should be worked out between the two of you and the publisher and stipulated on the contract.

[Lolly]

If you were an agent or publisher what would you do when dealing with a person like you?

Since the thread has changed direction, I'll shelve my original response (agreeing with those who said "grow up") and add this. How will this work with your mother being co-author? I mean, how do you plan to avoid the nasty agents and editors? People here have said that editors frequently like to have conference calls with joint authors. So, will you have your mother make an excuse for you as to why you're not there? Or will you sit there silently the whole time? Because I have to say, if I were an agent/editor, and this happened more than once, it would irritate me. How do I know that the second author agrees with the first author if any changes are proposed? Especially if I were an editor, I wouldn't do anything until I knew that everybody was on board with where we were going. And frankly, if the second author never appeared, I'd begin to suspect some sort of "ghost submission" and I wouldn't be too happy about it.

Speaking of appearances, what if by chance your book becomes a bestseller? Are you going to stay at home while your mother goes out on the book tour? Do you really think she knows your book well enough to answer all the questions people will throw at her? ("What was this character's motivation?") As an editor, I would never stand for that. If a book has two authors listed, then I would insist that both authors get out there and publicize it. So how will you explain her presence when the editor lines up those venues? Will you continue to maintain the fiction that she actually helped write the thing? I don't think an editor will be very happy when they find out otherwise. Or will you refuse to do any sort of publicity whatsoever? Then your first book published will be your last.

Now, since I'm still working on my novel, I'm not an expert on a writer's finances. :D So will some of the experts enlighten me? How would this work? Would the publisher send out two checks, one to each author? How would this work when it come to the taxes? However, it's done, I would think it's probably messy.

[JanDarby]

If you have a co-author, you should also have a lawyer to draw up a contract between you that establishes things like who gets what percentage of the income/expenses, and what happens if one of you drops dead.

JD, not giving individual advice, just general information

[Gillhoughly]

Flame thread?? Just look at Gillhoughly's eye. Now that was a flame.

Um...not really.

That's just how things work in publishing. Telling the truth ain't a flame.

Just please try not to get my thread locked until I have some real answers, OK?

If a person doesn't want to accept that truth, it's their problem and will continue to be a problem until they decide to change.

I used to be just like Hope, but decided that I had to get past it if I wanted to accomplish certain goals in life.

I'd set myself up very nicely for a lifetime of failure. I might still be there, too.

But one night a friend gave me one heck of a severe "talking to" ---it was a doozy. He told me exactly what I did not want to hear, and it took hours. The next day he thought I'd never speak to him again, but instead I thanked him. He was absolutely right.

All the objections I'd put forth to insulate myself from things I did not want to deal with suddenly showed themselves to be excuses to justify failure. If I did not reach those goals then it wasn't my fault; those nebulous *others* were to blame for not following my rules.

He let me know that success in ANY venture doesn't just happen, you have to work at it, and it can take time, and if it does happen, then be happy and dive in head first, enjoy the heck out of it. Congratulate yourself for doing it!

But it won't happen unless you actually make an effort and take charge of yourself.

I did a one-eighty on my 'tude-- and it was wonderful! Stuff I thought I would hate turned out to be fun. I either tackled obstacles like a linebacker on crack or brushed them aside. My new outlook showed how small they actually were. By God, it was FUN to be a grownup!

While it is okay to accept offered help from others, it is not okay to expect, rely on, or take it for granted. Why should they change their lives and compromise their own goals to help you out?

And when you DO accomplish a goal--all on your own--there is no feeling like that rush of pride in yourself. It puts you on top of the world, and then urges you to do more. You're ready for more, too.

Hope, I would suggest you read The Warrior's Apprentice (http://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Apprentice-Vorkosigan-McMaster-Bujold/dp/0743468406/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_1_2/002-1433808-6348055) by Lois McMaster Bujold. Her MC has every reason to hide himself away, but decides to play the hand he's been dealt in life and overcome it.

His turning point is when, with horror, he realizes his father doesn't expect anything of him. His father has no reason to think his son will ever accomplish anything in life--but the old man's quietly accepted the disappointment. He loves his son.

The son makes a vow to stuff his father so full of pride for him that he'll burst from it. He doesn't know HOW just yet, but he wants his dad proud of him, and he will do it on his own. The rest of the book tells how he makes that goal, and it is a rip-snortin' great read. I've worn my copy out from multiple reads.

Lois has a theme through her writing: Forward momentum. "If I can do it, you can do it." By the time you've finished her books you know you CAN!

I've adopted that into my life and no regrets, but a lot of triumphs. There are more to come. I don't see them yet, but they are out there. I can hardly wait!

Good luck.

[johnzakour]

Now, since I'm still working on my novel, I'm not an expert on a writer's finances. :D So will some of the experts enlighten me? How would this work? Would the publisher send out two checks, one to each author? How would this work when it come to the taxes? However, it's done, I would think it's probably messy.

Far from an expert but each co-author gets seperate checks. Either from the publisher or the agent.

[Willowmound]

Um...not really.

That's just how things work in publishing. Telling the truth ain't a flame.

I think Robin was referring to your black eye -- which we can all plainly see in your picture.


But one night a friend gave me one heck of a severe "talking to" ---it was a doozy. He told me exactly what I did not want to hear, and it took hours.

So that's where you got it!

[mscelina]

Um...not really.

That's just how things work in publishing. Telling the truth ain't a flame.

If a person doesn't want to accept that truth, it's their problem and will continue to be a problem until they decide to change.

I used to be just like Hope, but decided that I had to get past it if I wanted to accomplish certain goals in life.

I'd set myself up very nicely for a lifetime of failure. I might still be there, too.

But one night a friend gave me one heck of a severe "talking to" ---it was a doozy. He told me exactly what I did not want to hear, and it took hours. The next day he thought I'd never speak to him again, but instead I thanked him. He was absolutely right.

All the objections I'd put forth to insulate myself from things I did not want to deal with suddenly showed themselves to be excuses to justify failure. If I did not reach those goals then it wasn't my fault; those nebulous *others* were to blame for not following my rules.

He let me know that success in ANY venture doesn't just happen, you have to work at it, and it can take time, and if it does happen, then be happy and dive in head first, enjoy the heck out of it. Congratulate yourself for doing it!

But it won't happen unless you actually make an effort and take charge of yourself.

I did a one-eighty on my 'tude-- and it was wonderful! Stuff I thought I would hate turned out to be fun. I either tackled obstacles like a linebacker on crack or brushed them aside. My new outlook showed how small they actually were. By God, it was FUN to be a grownup!

While it is okay to accept offered help from others, it is not okay to expect, rely on, or take it for granted. Why should they change their lives and compromise their own goals to help you out?

And when you DO accomplish a goal--all on your own--there is no feeling like that rush of pride in yourself. It puts you on top of the world, and then urges you to do more. You're ready for more, too.



Amen. A life lesson that I've had to learn as well...and the HARD way. It's part of the maturation process we all take as people, not just as writers. Applying such knowledge to the writing industry is an important step.

Good luck.

[Gillhoughly]

I think Robin was referring to your black eye -- which we can all plainly see in your picture. So that's where you got it!

Heh--and here I thought I got that shiner from Guns Donovan.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MG/170636~Donovan-s-Reef-Posters.jpg

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[WordGypsy]

Well Hope, good luck with that. I have nothing more to say.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

[Red Robin]

I wish John Wayne would give me a shiner. It hurts but it makes a great story.

Hope- Take some advice or don't, just let us know how it goes either way.

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's the answer to the OP's question:

US Mail.

Really. It's there, and it works. No phone? No problem!

[argenianpoet]

I don't have a phone and never check my e-mail. I


But you're on Absolute Write all the time... There's something I'm not quite getting about your situation. I carry my cell phone on my side all the time; a hot car will drain your battery, moreover will damage a cell phone. If you have a cell phone, I would definitely give the prospective agent that number and keep it charged and on my side always ;-) In the end you will want credit for your novel, and having your mom represent you is just bad business bro, seriously. Be professional, that's the first step to actually getting published. Also, be ready for rejection. Unless you have written the next best thing, I wouldn't get my hopes up too high. Just getting a call from an agent is a wish of all writers, but the reality is few get that call, or still even a letter requesting a partial or full.

[Chasing the Horizon]

If there were as many interesting things in my e-mail everyday as there are on AW, I'm sure I would remember to check it. Just because an agent or editor sends something to my Mom's e-mail doesn't mean I won't be the one to respond, it just guarantees someone sees that it's there right away.

I said earlier that I have no problem with doing whatever promotion the publisher wants. I get along fine with people so long as I'm not working with them.

I would participate in conference calls. I'm actually much more comfortable with 3+ way calls then I am with regular phone conversations, since I have the option not to talk if I don't know what to say (or can't think of anything nice to say, which is even more likely).

Having the publisher send two checks is also ideal, as it saves me from having to write my Mom checks myself every time I get a check from the publisher. If I'm making money I do have to contribute to the household finances, after all.

Thanks to all those who took time to actually answer my question. :)

[Will Lavender]

I said earlier that I have no problem with doing whatever promotion the publisher wants. I get along fine with people so long as I'm not working with them.

Yeah, but you are working with an agent once the agent chooses to represent you. That's what it is: a working relationship.

As others have said, I'd mellow out a bit. If you want to get into publishing, you're about to enter a situation where pretty much everything you do is questioned. It takes a thick, thick skin.

[johnzakour]

Having the publisher send two checks is also ideal, as it saves me from having to write my Mom checks myself every time I get a check from the publisher. If I'm making money I do have to contribute to the household finances, after all.

Thanks to all those who took time to actually answer my question. :)


Actually if you get an agent, what probably will happen is the publisher will pay the agent, the agent will take his or her cut then cut you and your mom two checks.

[Willowmound]

This will all probably prove a non-problem.

Going by statistics, she won't get published. So there's no issue.

Very likely.

[CaroGirl]

This will all probably prove a non-problem.

Going by statistics, she won't get published. So there's no issue.

Very likely.
True. Hope, maybe it's more of a "cross that bridge when you come to it" sort of scenario. Fiction publishing is a looong business with a whole lot of waiting, and the likelihood of even getting an agent, nevermind a publisher, is so slim. I hate the odds, but I'm still slogging away at it. Perhaps you should have a tentative plan in place and then go from there if something happens. Your entire situation could be different (moved out on your own, a job, heck a partner and kids) by the time you actually snag a publisher.

[Lolly]

Thank you, Gillhoughly, for that lovely and thoughtful post. I tend to be outspoken and not like criticism well, so I've really had to work on mellowing out. One of the things I find helpful is to cultivate good friends. Not only do they hold you accountable in your personal life, they can help with your writing. Unless you're writing for a specialist field, then you want as many people to read your stuff as possible. I've been having a friend read some of my stuff and give me honest feedback. If she doesn't like it, then why would the general public? She's already told me a couple of things I didn't want to hear, but I figure it will probably make my writing stronger by working on those points.

As for the cell phone, leaving it in the car is also a good way to get it stolen. That's why mine stays with me wherever I go. It doesn't mean you have to take calls all the time; a lot of the time mine is turned off so I can have some peace. I still keep it handy, though.

[Gillhoughly]

No prob, Lolly!

Passage to adulthood ain't easy, hence the phrase growing pains, but it IS worth it.

Happily my job/addiction to writing keeps me a mental juvenile--minus pimples, snot, and curfews! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

That long-ago friend has gone off to do who knows what, but I've some good buds now. They all have permission to kick me in the slats if I get too full of myself. Everyone needs people who can tell you "no" when necessary.

Most interestingly my old pal was the son of a very well-off banker. (Oh, heck, he was freakin' rich!) He never had to squeeze pennies the way I had to, but clearly understood one has to work to get anywhere in the world. He took it for granted that he'd have to get out and pitch in, and prepped for it.

I'm betting his folks raised him right.

[justpat]

Passage to adulthood ain't easy, hence the phrase growing pains, but it IS worth it.

I don't know. I sure would like to be a worry-free kid again.

[Cathy C]

Wow... I'm actually going to be the lone voice of dissent for a change. :Wha:

I started out being my co-author's business manager. She couldn't deal with rejection, so she didn't want to submit--despite her stuff being GOOD. I wasn't a writer, I was a secretary/paralegal for a living. But I happened to work next door to a public mailbox location, so I told her I'd write the queries, send the emails, print out the manuscripts, collect the mail and very specifically NOT give her the rejections. She only got the letters expressing interest.

We decided to be co-authors for a similar reason--me heading up the business side and her being the creative one. I could write, but got no ideas. She got ideas, but had a hard time implementing them to the industry. And so a partnership was born. :)

First, Hope, you need a Partnership Agreement. I don't care one whit if she's your Mom. She's a PERSON, and has the right to her opinion. And you have the right not to be bullied by her later in the process because "she knows best." Since she (or other family members) already think they know best and want to push you into publishing, then a written agreement is CRITICAL to your continued happy family relationship. I'd be happy to send you a draft of the one we used if you want to PM me.

Next comes communication with the outside (agents, editors, etc.) Again, I'm the "point person." I do this full time, where my co-author works in a place where she isn't allowed phone calls or private emails during work hours. We talk each morning before work, at lunch and after work . . . every day. I forward her copies of emails I get, we talk about how to respond, and I write the email. Simple as pie. For conference calls, we arrange for them to be during lunch (our time zone is different than NY, so it generally works.)

The only time it gets tricky is when dealing with the public-at-large. See, when you have a point person, you have to accept that there will be times when you get forgotten. We started our partnering life as "Sears & Roebuck." A partnership of equals, but with one visible person and one invisible person. Unfortunately, we came to learn that people go to Sears every day. But nobody wanders into their local Roebuck store. Signing after signing--time after time--we'd wander into a bookstore to discover ONE chair (mine) and ONE name on the posters. It wasn't intentional, wasn't malicious, and I certainly always put her name out first when I corresponded with people, but it started to become a wedge between us.

So, now we're Black & Decker. Few know one name without the other. She's learned to participate in emails and I've been encouraging her to get out and become her "own person" so to speak with fans, booksellers and other industry professionals. It might be that you won't ever care about being unknown. If so, then I think the partnership might work out very well.

If it makes you happy to let someone else take care of it, then do it. :) Good luck!

[Gillhoughly]

Excellent points, CathyC!

But yours is a complete LEGAL partnership and you divided the labor so it's fair to both parties. You made a conscious decision to partner up, it wasn't just "oh, just do this 'cause you're a relative and happen to be handy."

[Cindyh2k]

Cathy C,

I think that could work for Hope and her mother - she stated that her Mom gives her ideas when she is writing, so it could be a full partnership as you have suggested.

Hope, I think that Cathy has given you the best answer yet - and I agree that you and your Mom should have a partnership agreement. That seems like a workable solution for you.

Cindy

[batgirl]

Thanks, CathyC, from another 'point man'. I hope that someday my co-writer and I will need to work out how to do signings and so on. She reads out loud really well, but I'm a better friendly-chatty type.
And her name goes first on the cover, because she has a cooler name. I insisted on that in our co-author agreement.
-Barbara

[Anthony Ravenscroft]

Okay, maybe it's just that I'm in fiction mode, but I'm not getting it, HttH.

You're home all the time, but you're gone all the time.

You have Internet access, but no landline.

But leave that aside. It's a good thing that some excellent advice has come of this thread. But I can't help feeling that you're either a poseur or a troll, with short odds between.

Except for a tint fraction of the already tiny fraction of successful authors, there's no easy way.

Go out & get a life. Unless you're emulating highly dysfunctional writers, it sounds like you're entirely too cushy to create anything of depth.

[pepperlandgirl]

You could just make up a pseudonym and publish under one name. That's what my writing partner and I do. You don't have to worry about whose name goes first, and you don't have to worry about people who don't want to buy books with two names. Our editor told us she couldn't put both our names on the cover, so Jamie Craig was born. And there is a division of labor similar to what was mentioned before. I tend to be in charge of submissions, because my partner doesn't like rejections. But she'd probably be the public face, if a public face is ever necessary.

[Lolly]

Wow... I'm actually going to be the lone voice of dissent for a change. :Wha:




Next comes communication with the outside (agents, editors, etc.) Again, I'm the "point person." I do this full time, where my co-author works in a place where she isn't allowed phone calls or private emails during work hours. We talk each morning before work, at lunch and after work . . . every day. I forward her copies of emails I get, we talk about how to respond, and I write the email. Simple as pie. For conference calls, we arrange for them to be during lunch (our time zone is different than NY, so it generally works.)

That's pretty much the point I was making. The publishing world will only deal with one author out of a pair up to a point. Eventually, they're going to want to hear from this shadowy other author. To try and get something published while having no contact with an agent/editor is, I'm guessing, next to impossible.

The only time it gets tricky is when dealing with the public-at-large. See, when you have a point person, you have to accept that there will be times when you get forgotten. We started our partnering life as "Sears & Roebuck." A partnership of equals, but with one visible person and one invisible person. Unfortunately, we came to learn that people go to Sears every day. But nobody wanders into their local Roebuck store. Signing after signing--time after time--we'd wander into a bookstore to discover ONE chair (mine) and ONE name on the posters. It wasn't intentional, wasn't malicious, and I certainly always put her name out first when I corresponded with people, but it started to become a wedge between us.


Again, that was my other point. Hope simply wants to put her mother's name on a page and claim that she co-wrote it. How in the world would that work for public appearances? Would her mother be the dominant partner at the appearance? Would Hope even appear at all? How long could Hope hope to pull off that charade? And if by some freak chance the book makes money, I bet Hope would start to get irritated at being left out of the limelight, just like your partner did, Cathy. And can you imagine what would happen if Hope got caught? What would the publisher think when they found out the woman fronting the book had nothing to do with writing it? Man, I would not want to be in on that coversation.

[Cathy C]

Hope simply wants to put her mother's name on a page and claim that she co-wrote it.

Well, in reality that's sort of what happened with our first two books. We just backdated everything we'd done to that point and slapped both names on the covers. I was already under contract--BY MYSELF--on the first historical novel when I contacted the publisher and said I wanted to add a co-author who had helped develop the plot (verbally only.) They said "No problem. We don't care who appears on the cover." So long as both of US felt we'd contributed, it was fine with them. :Shrug:

Since then, we still don't "co-author" as people understand it. We have a "lead author" and a "secondary author." The lead author writes the book. Period. The secondary author then comes through and edits it . . . or not. If it doesn't require edits (in that author's opinion) it goes out as is. But both names remain on the front. Our publisher knows. They don't care.

[lkp]

But Cathy, surely whichever one of you is the lead author is also prepared to talk with the publisher's editor whenever that book is being edited. That's where I see Hope's system breaking down, after the agent or editor gets tired of being told "Um, I dunno. I'll have to see." for the twentieth time by her mother. The agents I've dealt with have wanted to talk with me about the book, not some surrogate. Adding a co-author who can't speak authoritatively about the book seems like an unnecessary complication. Working exclusively through snail mail seems more sensible to me in this case.

[Cathy C]

Eh. It's all by email for us. Neither our agent nor editor prefers phone contact for business dealings. I can count on one hand the number of times we've talked to either of them by phone over the past four years.

I think if Hope's Mother reads the book, she'll be familiar with the elements. If Hope trusts her judgment and wants to turn over the decisions about plot elements, characterization and such (with Hope making the actual changes) then I guess I don't see a problem. I know it sounds really weird to those who look at their book as their baby, and the product of their soul. But for me and my co-author, it's all about the book--not the author. We, the authors, don't matter all that much. The book does. Who speaks FOR the book doesn't really matter.

It's a person by person thing. :)

[WordGypsy]

Am I the only one who'd really like to read some of Hope's writing? You clearly think it's good enough to publish, so why not post something in the Share Your Work forum? I think it would benefit your arguement to have some feedback besides 'my mom likes it.' Just a thought.

[Willowmound]

She's already posted some in SYW. I remember it from several months ago.

[Chasing the Horizon]

You have Internet access, but no landline.
Ever heard of 'high speed internet'? It comes from your cable company. It's pretty cool. You should check it out.

But leave that aside. It's a good thing that some excellent advice has come of this thread. But I can't help feeling that you're either a poseur or a troll, with short odds between.

Except for a tint fraction of the already tiny fraction of successful authors, there's no easy way.

Go out & get a life. Unless you're emulating highly dysfunctional writers, it sounds like you're entirely too cushy to create anything of depth.Ah, yes, the beautiful stereotype of the suffering artist. No doubt my writing would greatly improve if I had to work two jobs and go without sleep in pursuit of the craft.

You're right, I do have it much easier than most. Sorry if you're jealous.

[Chasing the Horizon]

Am I the only one who'd really like to read some of Hope's writing? You clearly think it's good enough to publish, so why not post something in the Share Your Work forum? I think it would benefit your arguement to have some feedback besides 'my mom likes it.' Just a thought.
Benefit my argument? What argument? I just asked a question about the publishing industry, since I need to put a query letter together soon. The only way to know that my (or anyone else's) work is good enough to publish is to start submitting it.

Luckily for both of us, having an attitude problem in no way effects one's ability to write well, just one's ability to actually get said work published.

P.S. There's no 'e' in 'argument'.

[WordGypsy]

Well, at least you have spelling in your corner. Me, I'm pretty involved with the whole spell check and all. Maybe argument (hey, I learn quick) was the wrong word. I just wanted to see some of your work. You seem to think it's pretty good and I'm always up for a good read. I checked your last posts but didn't see anything about syw. I'll check it out when I get home from work. Sadly, I'm the one you described...two jobs and no sleep. So yes, color me jealous of the ability to have bills paid for you and be able to write all the time. No judgement there. Someone would have to be crazy NOT to jump at that chance. :) I come in peace, eh?

[Chasing the Horizon]

I think both my old posts in SYW got pruned. I really hope they did, because (I'd like to think, at least) my writing has improved a lot since then.

I honestly have no idea if my writing is good or not. My beta readers like it, but that doesn't mean it's up to the quality publishers want. My Mom's actually told me stuff I wrote was 'pretty bad' before, so she certainly doesn't feel obligated to like everything I give her to read. I have several other friends who read my work as well.

I generally prefer giving critiques instead of receiving them in SYW. I think I learn just as much that way, without getting my own work ripped to shreds. I find it easier to learn from a criticism directed at someone else, even if it also applies to me.

I have a lot of respect for anyone who manages to complete a novel while working full time (or more than full time). I'm not sure I would have the time management abilities to do that. If they can go on to get that novel published it's even more impressive. I just objected to Anthony Ravenscroft's claim that not having it hard somehow makes one less of a writer. I would be more inclined to question the ability of someone who had the opportunity to write full time and didn't take advantage of it.

I think the way people reacted to this thread kind of proved my point about how I can come off as less-then-nice to people without meaning to. I didn't ask my Mother to be the primary contact for agents and editors; she offered. She didn't want to see me not get published because of a misunderstanding or personality clash. I think it would be rather silly not to take her up on that offer.

No hard feelings, WordGypsy. :)

[WordGypsy]

Hmmm good point with that last part. I guess if it works for you then do it, right? Anyway, no hard feelings either. I'm not about fighting on the internet or anything...we both have better things to do with our time. Like write :) lol which I need to get to so I can get my 500 words by tonight!

[johnzakour]

Eh. It's all by email for us. Neither our agent nor editor prefers phone contact for business dealings. I can count on one hand the number of times we've talked to either of them by phone over the past four years.



Man, who's this agent who doesn't want to use the phone? :-)

For the really big things my agent (Joshua Bilmes) seems to much prefer talking to me than emailing me. I will email him and he will call me with answer. (Especially when I'm about to do something silly.)

All my editors are the same way, they seem to prefer talking to emailing. I guess because in some ways it's quicker.

I myself perfer email because it gives me a record of whats going on and it lets my compose my thoughts and gives me cut and paste and undo. (I can't do those things when I speak.... My life could really use an undo command.)

[job]

Man, who's this agent who doesn't want to use the phone? :-)

For the really big things my agent (Joshua Bilmes) seems to much prefer talking to me than emailing me.

My experience is more like Cathy's.
I much prefer e-mail over phone, and the editor and agent either sense this and go along with me, or prefer it themselves.

I like e-mail because it gives me a chance to think.
I think slow.

[johnzakour]

My experience is more like Cathy's.
I much prefer e-mail over phone, and the editor and agent either sense this and go along with me, or prefer it themselves.

I like e-mail because it gives me a chance to think.
I think slow.

Yeah, I prefer email too. And I do e-mail with my agent and editors a lot.

But I also get a phone call from them at least once a month about this or that. One advantage of the phone is that it is more interactive and there are times when one phone does the work of a series of e-mails.