Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[JuliePgh]

Jim,
In another thread (Endings) you wrote:
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Your viewpoint character does not need to be your main character, or even a major character. Remember when I told you to cherish your minor characters? This is one of the places where they can come in handy: they're great viewpoints.
<hr></blockquote>

If an author is alternating POV between two major characters for many chapter and then uses a minor character's POV only once, is this considered inconsistent or disruptive, generally speaking? Should the patterns of POV used in the first few chapters be followed through to the end?

[macalicious731]

To expand on Julie's question:

I'm following a one character POV through writing. There are certain places which could have an interesting spin if told through a second character's POV, but ultimately I've decided to stick with the first one.

However, I'm considering using that second POV character for the final scene. I think it could work very well - ("do what works") - but I'm not very sensitive when it comes to POV shifts, and I know a lot of people who are.

Since it's the final scene, "the end," I'm just curious about other thoughts on the situation?

[maestrowork]

Katie, not having read your ms, I can't tell if your POV shift at the end would work or not. But I'd caution doing such a major shift at the very end of the book when the readers have invested so much time with your main POV character. Unless, of course, there's reason -- like your main POV character is dead or something, or some other dramatic reasons to tell the ending from a different POV.

Just my thoughts.

[JimMorcombe]

Uncle Jim

I liked your Infodump. I read it all and would continue reading the book.

Its the type of thing I would expect Grisham to write.

You typed two openings from Grisham books. (And then promised an analysis on them...) Did you type them because you were following your own advice and typing stuff you were impressed with?

Was this your effort to make use of Grisham's style?

As I said before, Grisham really makes me turn the pages. But sometimes I get to the end of the book and wonder whether I have read anything except gossip.

Its like you said, you have a contract with the reader. You are promising that the effort of reading the book will be rewarded at the end.

Nephew Jim


P.S. My daughter tels me that "Bleachers" by Grisham came into the bookstores at $AUS 40 but no one bought it. They had to cut the price back to $10 to get rid of it.

[JimMorcombe]

Surely "Son of Uncle Jim" must be "Nephew Jim". But don't worry UJ, I won't take over the thread.

But seriously, I have been checking prologues in different books I have.

I think the role of the Prologue has changed over the past 30 years and also between Genres. In particular, in Fantasy the Prologue is really Chapter one, but with a BIG scene change between it and the next chapter.

Back when I was in school, I skipped the Prologue of every book I read.

When David Gemmells first book came out, I skipped his Prologue.

Now I have to read David Gemmell's Prologues or I miss stuff needed for the story.

Now every second Fantasy Book I read has a Prologue that needs to be read.

Look at the effort Robert Jordan puts into his Prologues. Can you skip them? (Even though they all start out with the same wording...interesting point, he bores you with page one of his Prologue before it starts getting interesting...why?)

Twenty years ago, Anne McAfferty would have Introductions that you read if you hadn't read any of the previous books in the series and then have a short Prologue that was skippable, but whetted the appetite.

Nephew Jim

[JimMorcombe]

Uncle Jim,

I don't know if I mentioned this before. I probably didn't want to hurt your feelings. Here goes...

The local bookstores don't know who you are. (Sorry! You must remember that Perth in Western Australia is the most isolated capital city in the world. We are so far from Sydney that many of us (rightly) believe it is part of a different country. Our Queen back in England actually gave us permission to secede from the rest of Australia once...)

Anyway, this brings me to the question of foreign rights. When a book is published in the USA, are sales in England and in Australia considered as foreign sales?

Why are authors such as David Gemell so big in England and Australia that he gets an entire Imprint named after one of his books, but Americans don't even read him?

Why are authors like James McDonald so big in America but we Australians have to buy his books off Amazon?

Nephew Jim

[reph]

"Surely "Son of Uncle Jim" must be "Nephew Jim"."

It's Cousin Jim, I would think.

[JimMorcombe]

Reph

You have a POV problem.

Nephew Jim
(The true, one and only Son of UJ)

[reph]

I can explain. The son of one's uncle is one's cousin. The son of one's sister or brother is one's nephew. Where's the POV problem?

[James D Macdonald]

Very quickly --

Australia can be considered foreign rights. Depends on what the publisher bought. If they picked up North American rights then you won't see the book outside North America.

If the publisher picked up World English rights, you might see UK and Australian editions, or in any other english-speaking country.

Or other rights and rights packages.

Alas, so far none of my books have sold in Australia. I weep, I sigh. I'd like it if they did. The rights are available; if you're a publisher send me a note; I'm sure we can work something out.

Meanwhile, for all others:

This is a page called <a href="http://www.sharyn.org/slush.html" target="_new">Slush</a>. It's from Sharyn November, the editor of the Firebird imprint (Penguin USA's YA reprint line). There is much good advice on that page, and many fine links from it.

[James D Macdonald]

Another fine article, with much to teach us:

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/01/magazine/01CLARKE.html?ex=1249099200&en=2fea0b3cbfbd17d9&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland" target="_new">New York Times Magazine</a>.

[HConn]

I enjoyed the Clark piece. I wonder if her glowing profile will encourage the book editor to end the ban on reviewing fantasy novels.

[macalicious731]

A bit on prologues.

When I read Lolita, I skipped the prologue. It was written in italics and was labeled as a "foreword." I skimmed to the end of the foreword and saw it was written by "John Ray, Jr., Ph.D." I thought this was some kind of anaylist or critic writing an introduction to the novel - the repetitive initials in his name should have given me the first clue - and since I was reading it for a paper I didn't want any "outside" information before I finished the novel.

Little did I know the doctor was just another of Nabokov's characters. :smack

I went back and read the prologue after I fiinished the book and quickly realized the whole setup was a major inclusion of foreshadowing which carried through the rest of the novel, finally focusing on the last pages of the book. Key points to understanding the psychology of the book (while making fun of itself at the same time) are locked up in the prologue.

Should it have been read first, like Nabokov intended, or is it okay that, as a bit of an overlook, I read it last?

Who knows.

[maestrowork]

That's why nowadays authors tend to forgo prologues/foreword, etc. Some still do, and some do it for no reason at all (for example, Dan Brown put his opening murders in prologues -- huh?). Somebody said here that a lot of readers don't read prologues. I personally don't read "foreword" at all.

[DanALewis]

I skip forewords and such because I am afraid of literary criticism with spoilers.

[ElonnaT]

Prologues seem to usually be shorter than the regular chapters in a book. So, if the information is important enough to be included in the first place, should it just be a short chapter 1 instead?

[aka eraser]

I guess I'm in the minority because I read them. I figure if the writer wrote them, he/she had to have a reason. Sometimes an intriguing prologue convinces me to buy the book.

[Pthom]

I think sometimes, a prologue is used to deliver exposition or backstory that would otherwise bog down the main story line.

Often, they're informative; just as often they're garbage.
-----------------------
In the story I'm writing, I have to deliver a great deal of exposition; the setting is far from the experience of the reader. I considered a prologue, briefly, and discarded it for the reason mentioned: it may go unread.

I considered including a glossary. May still do so, along with a Dramatis Personae. May not.

What I am considering though, is including a brief paragraph at the beginning of each chapter, a 'false authority' quote from made-up writings, or from characters in the story.

I've seen this done, asked my beta readers about it. One was ambivalent; another said she always reads those things.

What are your opinions on including 'false authority' quotes?

[Kida Adelyn]

I always read things like that: false quotes, prologs.
In one of my favorite books the auther includes a passage from a book that exists in the characters world that explains the polotics of the story so it dosn't bog down the story. It's not essential reading, because she also includes those facts just slipped into the story. She also includes 'false authority' quotes infront of about ever other chapter or so because the main character has alot of knowledge on spying and such that she uses and putting those things into the text would slow the story down considerable.
I think its a brilliant technich that I always read.

-Ally

[Terra Aeterna]

After much angsting (because usually I hate prologues) I'm about to write a prologue, because my chapter one really needs to start where it starts, and yet the readers seem to need more information and lacing it into chapter one isn't working for me. I'd still like to avoid the thing if I could think my way out of it.

P.S. This is a rewrite, so I've already written to "The End".

[maestrowork]

Can you think of ways to include your backstories, background information in your story, instead of setting it aside to prologue? I mean, some readers won't read the prologue so you will lose them...

[ChunkyC]

What are your opinions on including 'false authority' quotes?
Frank Herbert uses them to great effect in Dune.

Personally, I read everything readable in a book, right down to the ISBN. As far as forwards or false authority quotes go, if it's there, I believe it's there for a reason, so I read it. If it turns out to add nothing to the story, then it becomes a reason for liking the book less than I would have otherwise, as with any bad writing regardless of where it may be found between the covers.

[maestrowork]

I'm a bad reader -- I don't have patience. I tend to skip things that are not part of the main story.

That's ironic because as a writer, I want my readers to pay attention to all the subtleties and hidden symbolisms or themes, etc. and they can only do that if they read everything. :lol I guess I have double standards.

[Euan Harvey]

>Personally, I read everything readable in a book, right down to the ISBN. As far as forwards or false authority quotes go, if it's there, I believe it's there for a reason, so I read it.

Just want to say that this goes for me too. When I read a book I start with the acknowledgements and then work through to any appendices.

I like false quotes -- I think you have to be very careful about the tone and content though.

Cheers,

Euan

[Pthom]

As far as forwards or false authority quotes go, if it's there, I believe it's there for a reason, so I read it. You're my kinda reader, CC.
:grin

[JimMorcombe]

Uncle Jim

Firstly,
Authors often write books under different Pen Names so they can write in different genres.

If someone has successfully published under one name, does that make it easier to publish under a second name or is it just as hard as getting the first book published?

Secondly,
Robert Jordan wrote some Connan books. I picked up a copy of one of them last night. I think it was "Connan the Magnificent". It was from Random Houses "Legend" Imprint.

The Copyright notice said "Terry Brooks" claims authorship.

If Robert Jordan really Terry Brooks?

Doesn't it destroy the benefits of using a Pen Name if the publisher goes and puts the real name in the Copyright statement?


Nephew Jim

[HConn]

I read prologues and quotes, though the fake ones have to be just as good as real ones would be, or they make me roll my eyes.

[Kate Nepveu]

Robert Jordan is not really Terry Brooks; he is James Oliver Rigney Jr.

Can't help you with the rest of it.

[James D Macdonald]

There are two different books with the title "Conan the Magnificent." One was by Steve Perry, the other by Robert Jordan. Both were from Tor Books.

Robert Jordan and Terry Brooks are two different people; I've seen them both in the same room at the same time.

(To answer your question: there are all kinds of ways to avoid having your real name show up on the copyright page of your book. Let your publisher handle this.)

[James D Macdonald]

I know that there are a lot of questions hanging fire and discussions that I've promised, and I will get to them.

In the meantime: some definitions to help push through the jungle.

Print on Demand

<UL>
<LI>A business model
<LI>Prints after orders are received
<LI>Non-returnable books
</ul>

Trade Paperback

<UL>
<LI>Whole-copy returnable paperback
<LI>Usually 6"x9" trim size, but can be the same size as mass-market paperback ("rack-size trade paperback")
<LI>Intended for bookstore sales
</ul>

Mass-Market Paperback

<UL>
<LI>Stripped rather than returned
<LI>Intended for non-bookstore outlets (news stand, grocery store, etc.)
<LI>Distributed in the same way (and often by the same companies) as magazines and newspapers
</ul>

Digital Printing

<UL>
<LI>A technology
<LI>Converts a digital file to a finished book one at a time using a machine such as a Xerox Docutech
<LI>Low setup cost
<LI>High per-unit cost
<LI>No economy of scale
</ul>

Offset Printing

<UL>
<LI>A technology
<LI>Uses large presses and photographic plates to create many books rapidly
<LI>High setup cost
<LI>Low per-unit cost
<LI>Major economy of scale
</ul>

Vanity Publication

<UL>
<LI>A business model
<LI>Author pays the cost of publication plus a percentage to the publisher
<LI>Publisher has title to the physical books on the day they're printed
</ul>

Self Publication

<UL>
<LI>A business model
<LI>Author pays the cost of publication
<LI>Author has title to the physical books on the day they're printed
</ul>

Traditional Publishing

<UL>
<LI>A business model
<LI>Prints before orders are received
<LI>Returnable/strippable books
<LI>Publisher pays author for rights to publish
<LI>Publisher has title to the physical books on the day they're printed
</ul>

[wwwatcher]

"I guess I'm in the minority because I read them. I figure if the writer wrote them, he/she had to have a reason."

Just so you don't feel alone Eraser. I read them too. Maybe it's because I'm a "Mystery" writer according to that quiz we took. I read them mainly because I figure there is something there that I'll need to know later on (and also because I wouldn't write one unless it was important to the story I was telling.).


Faye

[JimMorcombe]

Uncle Jim

I seem to have stumbled onto a conspiracy. I have a book allegedly written by Robert Jordan but copyright to Terry Brooks.

The publishing world goes to the extreme of hiring actors to impersonate Terry Brooks whenever Robert Jordon is present. Even Uncle Jim is in on the scheme.

Did Robert Jordan's publisher really assasinate Terry Brooks to get his hands on Brooks' manuscript? Is the book I have in my possession the last bit of evidence that has yet to be swept under the carpet?

I look over my shoulder as I drive home, check for unexpected vehicles in my driveway. The hit men from Tor will never take me by surprise...

By the way, what are the implications of an incorrect Copyright statement in a book and do I have some kind of collector's piece on my hands?

Nephew Jim

[James D Macdonald]

By the way, what are the implications of an incorrect Copyright statement in a book and do I have some kind of collector's piece on my hands?

Dunno -- but you might have a novel plot on your hands....

[JuliePgh]

Are sentence fragments considered bad grammar (outisde of dialogue)?

[maestrowork]

I consider it a stylistic choice. Most authors I know use sentence fragments to great effects.

[James D Macdonald]

Depends.

[maestrowork]

JDM :grin . Such a smart guy.

[JimMorcombe]

Sentence fragments are definitely "in". I think it is something to do with how our literary tastes have been changed by television.

You can track the changes though the years. In the beginning there were sentences that were long and cumbersome - try reading a book in ancient greek. They didn't even have "periods" so they had to run everything together with "and" or some other preposition conecting every "sentence".

Sentence fragments seem to have first come in to "dialogue" in books. Then they crept into the really tense fast moving narrative sections to make it move faster.

Now some modern action authors seem to use it so much you wonder whether they forgot their grammar and whether it still has the same effect.

[JimMorcombe]

Still researching Prologues...

In the "Last of the Renshei", Mickey Zucker-reichart actually has ten pages that are "Pre-proplogue" although they really do form a Prologue in the classical sense.

She then has a 34 page "Prologue" so it is 44 pages before the book begins.

I guess she has demonstrated two tricks to ensure that the reader doesn't skip the prologue. First, don't let the reader know it is a prologue. The reader only finds out when he gets to the next section. Secondly, if the Prologue is long enough, the reader can't skip it.

[wwwatcher]

Uncle Jim

I've got a story that I've honed and honed and sent to betas readers and I've made it as ready as I can make it. I've researched a market, Boy's Life, and I think the story is a good fit for them. But....

The story is 1846 words and their limit is 1500 words. Will you take a look at it and tell me which 300 to 400 words to take out? If I post it on "share your work" will you get out your machetee and help me?

Faye

[PixelFish]

JimMorcombe: Sometimes that backfires though, as when the prologue is about a completely different set of characters than those that are completing the main actions. It really irks me to no end to be set up with a story, and then, wham! taken to a completely different time and place.

[HConn]

Pixel, I like that in a story.

[SRHowen]

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to let anyone interested know that the zine I work for has done an interview with our own James D. Macdonald. It's online now at James D Macdonald Interview (http://www.wildchildpublishing.com)

Shawn

[bolshywoman]

Thanks, Shawn and James M.! That was hugely interesting.

[ammolsb]

Whew! Finally made it... Thanks to all of you for your wonderful knowledge and inspiration.

I'm on page 84 of my first draft, and very excited to be there!

Now for the burning question I've waited until now to ask: I'm considering retirement next year but would like to supplement my income. I've read about the advances you've mentioned, but how much could I expect from writing a couple books a year, assuming they were decent and published? What could one expect from royalties?:money :shrug

[sc211]

Hey everyone. I just found this forum a week ago, and I'm up to page 12 of this opus of great advice, so it's going to take me a while to get caught up, but I thought I'd jump in and get in on the fun while I can.

About prologues, I agree that no one likes to read them. Some, though, are done well, as with Lynn Flewelling's Luck in the Shadows, which is just a page and a half and hooks you in like a TV show does - it shows you something sinister happening, cuts to the opening credits, and then begins with the main character.

My question on prologues is what do you call those italicized paragraphs that lead off an opening chapter?

Carl Sagan's Contact starts off with one. "By human standards it could not possibly have been artificial: It was the size of a world." It goes on for a full paragraph and then cuts to the birth of the character who'll discover the message sent from that object. He even keeps it up through the first four chapters, showing the signal being sent and streaming through space as Ellie grows up.

Stephen King's The Body (Stand By Me), starts off the same. He numbers it as the opening chapter, but it's only two paragraphs and italicized. Speaking outside the story. He talks about the tales one never tells and then brings up "the nights I wake up from dreams where the hail falls into his open eyes."

He follows this with five pages of a card game in a treehouse until Vern arrives and says, "You guys want to see a dead body?"

So is this... Well, I was going to ask if it was a valid and acceptable technique, but from all I've read here, I'm sure you'll say that of course it is - it's there and it works. Sorry - I studied literary writing in college, and the rust of the shackles still scratches at times. But I'm learning. As Bruce Lee once said, "Efficiency is anything that scores."

Still, what are those mini-prologues called?

[James D Macdonald]

I know I've been slacking, and I owe a whole bunch of replies here (as well as the Firedoor Theory of Novel Construction), but:

For ammolsb ...

You might as well ask me "How long is a piece of rope?" Being able to write and publish two novels per year is a heck of an ambition. Sure, it can be done (I've done it), but I can't say how much you'll earn. What genre? What publisher? How are your sales?

Short answer: Plan on zero. That way you'll only get happy surprises.

[evanaharris]

Still, what are those mini-prologues called?

"Mini-prologue" sounds nice. "Interlude" sounds better. I seriously doubt there's a technical name, but I like the device.

Contact and Stand By Me are excellent stories.

[ChunkyC]

My question on prologues is what do you call those italicized paragraphs that lead off an opening chapter
There's bound to be a technical name for anything, Evan. sc211, if you are referring to a short paragraph that leads off a chapter, that is sometimes a quote or other such, then it's called an 'epigraph'.

[sc211]

Thanks. I actually keep a list of possible epigraphs, I like them so much, but what I'm talking about is more like one of those voice-overs you have at the beginning of a film. Where the author or narrator steps in and says something about what's going to happen later on.

After posting, I checked David Morrell's "Lessons from a Lifetime of Writing," since I remembered him mentioning doing something similar with "First Blood":

How can I assure the reader that everything at the start is going to pay off later, that there are plenty of exciting events about to happen? In desperation, I added the following first paragraph:

His name was Rambo, and he was just some nothing kid for all anybody knew [...] Certainly you could not have guessed that by Thursday he would be running from the Kentucky National Guard and the police of six counties and a good many private citizens who liked to shoot.

Morrell writes, "This looks suspiciously like an omniscient narrator directly addressing the reader. The technique is intrusive. But for the life of me, I couldn't think of another way to start the narrative. Because it promises excitement, I got away with it.... The device is called dramatic irony - the omnicient narrator tells the reader something that a character can't possibly know, and the reader, armed with insider information, waits with interest to learn how the character will react."

That's what I want to do with a mini-prologue - to use a bit of foreshadowing to hook in the readers even before the first paragraph. To give a clue of what's going to happen, which the narrator wouldn't know in first person or limited third as the story begins. I just don't want it to look cheap, like some plastic "Read Me!" tag where one isn't needed.

[maestrowork]

Why mini-prologue? Why don't you just put it in the first chapter to foretell what is coming? A lot of books do that, like:

"David Smith is going to die in 24 hours. He doesn't know it yet, but it's going to happen."... then go on to tell the story. To me it's a cheesy way to start a book, but if it works to get the readers to buy the book...

I like dramatic irony, but only when it's handle with subtlety. I hate it when the narrator is being coy -- I know something but I ain't tell you now.

[ChunkyC]

Ah, I see what you're getting at, SC. I do tend to agree with Maestro, you could do the same thing, but blend it into the first chapter, sort of like a long shot in a movie (omniscient narrator) that gradually pulls in until you're with the POV character.

[Jules Hall]

I think that's what he intends to do: basically an additonal short scene inside the chapter that's shown from a different viewpoint to the rest, probably set in italics to show that it's different. Another book where this device is used is Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card -- he has a section at the start of each chapter from the POV of the adults responsible for training Ender, which he uses to keep the tension up in situations where it would otherwise be a little slack.

God knows what they're called. I tend to think of them as "short scenes from a different POV set in italic". :grin

[sc211]

You're right, Maestro - that's just what I was worried about - that it'd look cheesy. But Morrell does it in nearly every book just like Chunky describes - you pull in from ominiscient in the first paragraph - and it works well enough for him.

And hey, Jules, I just got to "Ender's Game" this past winter, and don't you think the guys who did "The Matrix" stole that opening voice-over straight from that book? It's the same discussion between two people we can't see, who've been watching someone without his knowing, and saying, "I tell you he's the one."

Then it breaks to a different font and "The monitor lady smiled very nicely and tousled his hair...", right into limited third peson. And we know what the kid doesn't - that he's been chosen to save the world.

It's sort of a cross between an italicized mini-prologue and Morrell's dramatic irony. And the Wachowski brothers saw it and used it very well.

[maestrowork]

I personally don't like dramatic irony done in omniscient voice, within a 3rd limited scene/chapter. But that's just me. Do what works for your story. I usually like to present my dramatic ironies through other characters or scenes (a fly-on-the-wall type scene). Remember, your narrator is an invisible character in the book. He's the story teller so as long as you don't swift POV "during" a scene you'd be fine.

I don't see a reason to use italics to separate the POVs. Usually a blank line (to denote scene change) would be enough. Again, I prefer to use other scenes with other characters to present dramatic irony, but that's just me.

[ChunkyC]

"short scenes from a different POV set in italic"
Ah, the infamous SSFADPOVSII technique! :grin (I know, not near as cool an acronym as TANSTAAFL)

Okay, I haven't got a clue what they're called either. Ender's game is a perfect example and I never made the connection with the Matrix, tho' it's obvious now that it's been pointed out. It sure can add tension if done well.

[evanaharris]

There's bound to be a technical name for anything, Evan

I know. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. ;)

I just don't like "epigraph" for the italicized, or set-apart portions of books like Ender's Game and Contact. It just doesn't sound right.

We should give them a new name. Something cute and endearing like "feebles."

[JimMorcombe]

Uncle Jim

I'm sorry, but you are 100% dead wrong about the use of "and then".

I've finaly got my hands on "The Apocalypse Door" and I can see where you are coming from.

However, the phrase "and then" is not just a combination of the two words "and" and "then". It has psycological implications that we were taught from birth.

When Dad read to us when we were four, every second page ended with "and then..."

We waited with our heart in our mouth while Dad turned the page, waiting to see whether Baby Frog would swallow the bubble or listen to Mummy Frog's words of wisdom. The next page also finishes with "and then...". We wait again while Dad turns the page ever so slowly, full of suspense, waiting to see what swallowing a bubble does to a baby frog.

Obviously as adaults we don't still blatantly use "and then" so obviously, but this combination of words still has associations we can call upon.

A decade or two back, "and then" was in vogue with young teenagers in Australia. In these days Kylie Minogue was just a teenage stage of Neighbours or some other soap opera. A comedian came up with a character called "Kylie Moll" who was a freckle faced teenager whose trade mark was to say "and then, and then, and then..." in the middle of every single sentence at the same time as she chewed gum and stretched it with her fingers. It was a brilliant comment on the way out teenagers spoke.

The point is, "and then" has a history that is steeped in emotion. Most of us should use it.

On the other hand, you can't use "and then" in "The Apocalypse Door" because of the Voice you have adopted. You are writing in terse chunks that don't have many conecting prepositions.

For example, a random page 131 begins a new chapter:

"The truck was old, a pickup with the word 'FORD' on the grill. It had been build in Brazil. It was grey in color, and had agricultural implements in the bed."

This is completely different from saying:

"The truck was an old Ford pickup which had been build in Brazil. It was grey in color, with agricultural instruments carelesly thrown in the bed."

The second writer can make use of "and then" because he has warmed us up with prepositions.

Nephew Jim.

[Euan Harvey]

I was a little skeptical when I read Uncle Jim's post about 'and then' the first time as well. However, since then, I've noticed that a lot of published authors tend to use 'then' more often than 'and then'.

For example, 'The Apocalypse Troll' by David Weber has 337 instances of 'then' (I've downloaded it from the Baen free library and I ran a global search in Word) of which 54 are in 'and then'. So only 16% of the uses of 'then' are in 'and then', which means most of the time (84%) the word is used to join two sentences, it's simply done as [blah blah blah], then [blah blah blah].

Like I say, I've been looking for this in published work since I read Uncle Jim's comment on it, and it seems that a lot of people whose work I like (and whose work sells) don't use 'and then' very much.

Just my 2c.

Cheers,

Euan

[paritoshuttam]

Thanks guys. It's the same problem I am facing. I know I need to increase the suspense factor at the beginning and there was no way I could do it using 3rd perosn limited POV in the first page. Finally I too struck upon the same technique of using a voice that looks suspiciously omniscient, though I haven't set in apart in italics or anything. Then, after a paragraph or two, I shift to my protaganist's limited POV, in what I hope is a not-too-jerky transition.

Another related problem I have is that as my novel can be classfied as a coming-of-age work, I want that coming-of-age to be revealed gradually and not be told on Para 1, Page 1. So is it ok to use subplots to create the suspense here, or would readers consider that cheating?

Thanks,
Paritosh.

[JimMorcombe]

Euan Harvey,

Your research supports what I am saying. "and then" is not just for joining two sentences together. It has more emotional suspense attached to it than just "then". In fact, I guess I am surprised it is used such a high percentage of the time.

If you use an exclamation point to end every sentence then it loses its impact. Thats why they say not to use more than one a page.

[pianoman5]

I've always thought "and then" has a kind of singsong rhythm, presumably from childhood association, and tend to avoid it.

Slightly off to one side, but related, I read recently a helpful observation from a writer (Connie Willis?) who made the point that plot in particular is not about "and then...", but rather "so then...".

It sounds pretty obvious, but I suspect I'm not the only newbie writer who has let a favourite "and then" type of passage stand, where it did not rightfully belong in a cause-and-effect chain.

[JimMorcombe]

Not the best examples, but spot the difference...


She ran down the forest path, then across the clearing. She waved her arms around and tried to atract the pilot's attention. The helicopter seemed to pause in its flight and then continued without noticing her.

The last sentence works better with the "and then" because we want to introduce an element of suspense as the reader hopes the helicoptor pilot will spot the heroine, but then has his hopes dashed as the pilot flies by without seeing her.

However, if we'd used "and then" in the first sentence, it would have removed all impact from the last sentence.

[Euan Harvey]

>The last sentence works better with the "and then" because we want to introduce an element of suspense as the reader hopes the helicoptor pilot will spot the heroine, but then has his hopes dashed as the pilot flies by without seeing her.

Hmm. I really can't see *that* much difference between:

The helicopter seemed to pause in its flight and then continued without noticing her.

...and...

The helicopter seemed to pause in its flight, then continued without noticing her.

In fact, if you want an element of suspense, then I think the 'then' works better than 'and then', because of the slight pause you get with the comma (JMHO, and it's a minor difference).

And also, thinking about it, I'd probably write:

The helicopter seemed to pause in its flight, but then continued without noticing her.

Anyway, as far as I can see, most of the time the 'and' in 'and then' is superfluous.

[maestrowork]

I agree. To say "the helicopter paused for a second and then continued ..." is not as concise or well written as "the helicopter paused for a second, then contunued..." or "the helicopter paused for a second. Then it contuinued..." (in this case, the period serves as a literary pause).

"And then" does have a warm, familiar tone in it and is better suited for 1st person narration: "And then what happened, you may ask." Otherwise, I'd just use "then" or "and":

He stopped to take a breath, then jumped.

He took a breath and jumped.

[reph]

"So only 16% of the uses of 'then' are in 'and then', which means most of the time (84%) the word is used to join two sentences..."

Does it mean that? Mightn't "then" be used in these ways:

If Dan doesn't eat his spinach, then he can't have any pie.

Dan ate his spinach. Then he had a piece of pie.

Dan, then five years old, hated spinach.

Dan nibbled at his spinach now and then.

"Dinner will be ready at seven, Dan. Go out and play until then."

[Joanclr]

Quote from Nephew Jim:

For example, a random page 131 begins a new chapter:

"The truck was old, a pickup with the word 'FORD' on the grill. It had been build in Brazil. It was grey in color, and had agricultural implements in the bed."

This is completely different from saying:

"The truck was an old Ford pickup which had been build in Brazil. It was grey in color, with agricultural instruments carelesly thrown in the bed."

I am opting out of the "and then" discussion, if that's okay with everyone.

However, I find this portion fascinating for another reason. In a writing group recently we were discussing a writer's "headlong" style, and wondering just what made the difference in pacing and style. This example you quoted here capsulized it for me perfectly. As you pointed out, the feel of the two pieces, while saying the exact same thing, is completely different. I think it's intensely interesting to dissect what makes that the case, and how just a few wording changes can result in such a drastically different feel.

[James D Macdonald]

I think it's intensely interesting to dissect what makes that the case, and how just a few wording changes can result in such a drastically different feel.

This is why I say that you have to go through your book word-by-word and make every word justify its existence. Some people are naturals -- I can't help them, I can't hurt them. Me, I'm not a natural. I have to think about everything (though I only do it in second and subsequent drafts).

The first draft is for getting the story in place. If you don't have a story, you don't have a novel.

Lots of other things to talk about, no time to talk about 'em. For me, the "and then" discussion is a religious one, so there's no point talking about it. I'd originally offered it as an example of one of my eccentricities.

On suspense, and openings:

Consider the film D.O.A.. The protagonist has to figure out who murdered him. (He's been given a poison that has no cure, that hasn't killed him yet, but gives him limited time to discover whodunnit.) Consider the books that are one long flashback, after a present-time opening paragraph. Consider a change in POV character or narrative voice.

There's no one right way to do this. You as the artist will decide which is the best way for you,for your book. Try different versions in different drafts. See which read better. You don't get a prize for "almost works."

[Euan Harvey]

>Does it mean that? Mightn't "then" be used in these ways:

Oops.

""So only 16% of the uses of 'then' are in 'and then'..."

This bit is true.

"... which means most of the time (84%) the word is used to join two sentences..." "

This bit probably isn't -- although of the five examples you use, I would imagine that numbers 3, 4, and 5 are much less common than 1 and 2 (in which 'then' is being used kinda like a conjunction).

Nice catch. I was just testing to see if everyone was paying attention. Ahem.

Cheers,

Euan

[reph]

Euan: "I was just testing to see if everyone was paying attention. Ahem."

Well, then, I'd say some of us passed the test. Ahem to you, too.

I still maintain privately that "Dan ate his spinach, then had a piece of pie" is ungrammatical, no matter how popular it is: it uses "then" as an adverb where a conjunction is needed. Much earlier in this thread, Uncle Jim disagreed firmly. Now he says it's a religious matter. Fortunately, in this country, we are each free to worship as we choose.

[ChunkyC]

I'm late to the 'then/and then' discussion, but just wanted to add that I get a bit more of a 'cause and effect' feeling from 'and then' than 'then'.

The helicopter seemed to pause in its flight and then continued without noticing her.

...and...

The helicopter seemed to pause in its flight, then continued without noticing her.

[SFEley]

JimMorcombe wrote:
She ran down the forest path, then across the clearing. She waved her arms around and tried to atract the pilot's attention. The helicopter seemed to pause in its flight and then continued without noticing her.

IMO, that's a poor example. It's needlessly wordy and ambiguous. Whose POV are we in? How does the girl know whether the helicopter (by which I assume you mean the pilot) noticed her? The "and" in sentence two means that waving her arms ("around" is redundant) and attracting the pilot's attention were two separate acts. And if she ran *across* the clearing, that means she's back in the woods again, on the other side. Of course nobody saw her! And I personally think a comma would create a better suspense pause in that last sentence than a bland "and."

There are lots of correct ways to write this. I might say:
It took just seconds to cover the rest of the trail. She stopped in the center of the clearing and waved her arms, hoping to attract the pilot's attention. She thought the helicopter paused for just a moment, but it moved on with no sign of acknowledgement. She was alone.

Are there times when "and then" is appropriate? Sure. I think it depends more on individual voice than scene requirements. But if you're going to tell Uncle Jim he's wrong, you really ought to be more vigilant yourself when it comes to basic style, grammar, and spelling.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[Pthom]

Steve:
Seems to me that "The helicopter...continued without noticing her."and"...it moved on with no sign of acknowledgement."both require an inanimate object (the helicopter) to have anthropomorphic qualities. You were initially correct to complain about the helicopter noticing anything, since it is no doubt the pilot who does, but to acknowledge is akin to noticing, eh?
:grin

[Euan Harvey]

>Well, then, I'd say some of us passed the test. Ahem to you, too.

Blast! Works with my students...

__________________________________________________ _

>I still maintain privately that "Dan ate his spinach, then had a piece of pie" is ungrammatical, no matter how popular it is: it uses "then" as an adverb where a conjunction is needed.

I don't follow the second part of this sentence. Are you saying that it's ungrammatical because it uses 'then' as a conjunction, when it's actually an adverb?

[Because the example is using 'then' as a conjunction, and I am guessing that's why you're saying it's not grammatical]

'Then' can be an adverb, a noun, an adjective, and also a kind of conjunction, for example:

If all this be so, then man has a natural freedom. --Locke.*

But:

Even if I agreed with you and said that 'then' cannot be a conjunction, and also that two clauses in a sentence must be joined by a conjunction of some sort, then are you saying that we shouldn't use 'then' to join two clauses because it's ungrammatical?

In that case, what about sentence fragments? Run-ons? Comma splices?

[All of which I see all the time in published fiction]

As far as I can see, the conventions of formal written English simply don't apply to writing fiction.

Cheers,

Euan

*Example from dictionary.reference.com/search?q=then (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=then)

[reph]

"Are you saying that it's ungrammatical because it uses 'then' as a conjunction, when it's actually an adverb?"

Yes. My dictionaries list "then" as adverb, noun, and adjective – nothing else. They don't have the conjunctional use as in the Locke quotation; I don't know why not, since that's a standard use of "then."

Mostly, I'm saying that it looks funny and that this funniness comes from its being an adverb trying to do a conjunction's job. When I see "Dan ate his spinach, then had a piece of pie," it looks wrong. It gives me an experience like walking downstairs and reaching the bottom one step earlier than I expected: uh-oh, something was missing there. "Then" works like "next." You wouldn't write "Nancy tied her shoelaces, next combed her hair."

I think one reason that kind of "then" bothers me is that people don't use it in speech, only in writing, and then only in fiction writing. The conjunctional "then" always looks to me like an affectation.

[James D Macdonald]

Much earlier in this thread, Uncle Jim disagreed firmly.

I still disagree firmly. The "and then" word cluster is always and everywhere wrong, illogical, and unsupported by any valid laws of grammar.

"And then" can be used in dialog to show that the speaker is illogical, ungrammatical, and wrong.

[HConn]

My dictionary (Random House unabridged, second ed), lists "then" as an adverb. The third definition under adverb is "next in order of time. We ate, then we started home."

A later definition states "next in order of place."

However, several of the example sentences in the definition use "and then" constructions. So I say they're both right.

But whatever you do, never ever ever say "and into". Just don't do it.

:)

[Euan Harvey]

>...Consider the books that are one long flashback, after a present-time opening paragraph.

Speaking of openings, I read 'The Piano Tuner' by Daniel Mason recently (very good book, I heartily recommend it). It starts with a very vivid image, done like a prologue. It's kept pretty short, but it contains some veyr nice imagery. However, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the rest of the book, until you reach the final page, and you figure out what the text at the very beginning was talking about.

It worked very well IMHO. Unfortunately, I don't know if all the editions of the book have it. The sample pages available on Amazon don't include it.

Cheers,

Euan

[Jules Hall]

[...]
"...it moved on with no sign of acknowledgement."
--
both require an inanimate object (the helicopter) to have anthropomorphic qualities. You were initially correct to complain about the helicopter noticing anything, since it is no doubt the pilot who does, but to acknowledge is akin to noticing, eh?

If the pilot were to notice, he might cause the helicopter to do something in acknowledgement of that. In this case, it seems reasonable to say that the helicopter is giving a "sign of acknowledgement." Similarly you could say that someone in a sword fight was wounded by a sword... obviously it was the person holding the sword who caused the wounding, but the sword as agent can be said to have done it, too.

[pencilone]

Uncle Jim & Friends,

I would be interested to know what do you think the ingredients for a real page turner are (and maybe we could discuss all of them, one by one? :coffee ).

From what I've read, if the story is good, there might be a chance of publication even if the actual writing may need more work.

A good story is a story that compels you to read it, to turn the pages and keep on reading till the end, leaving you eager to look for other books written by that author.

A good page turner makes you want to share the joy of reading with your friends, and that's how the word of mouth about a good book spreads.

For instance, suspense... How do you build suspense in your books?

All ideas most welcome:) ,

Pencilone

[Pthom]

The comment that brought this up wasn't about point of view, it was about "and then" vs. "then." However, the question about inanimate objects "doing" things is a point of view issue, no?

If you make it clear that the woman (let's call her Suzie) thinks of the helicopter as an animate object, because after all, from her point of view, it moves, hovers, makes noise, seems alive, then I have no problem with Suzie's disappointment that it didn't acknowledge (or notice) her waving. This might also work if the point of view is that of another character in the story, say Suzie's mother.

But if the scene is told from an omnicient narrator's point of view, I think that in most cases, we don't want helicopters to notice anything--but do want the pilots of them to. Besides, chances are pretty good that the pilot is a character, even if a small one, elsewhere in the story. Maybe Suzie doesn't know him now, but will later on. Heck, she might even discover he is her long lost Uncle Jim.

No wait. Jim was in the Navy. But they have helicopters. Maybe he piloted one. Maybe he knows if those machines notice things.
:grin

[Pthom]

In a most enlightening 3-hour class taught by Donald Maass at the recent Willamette Writers' Conference, he said the one thing that best keeps the pages turning is tension.

What is it the character wants?
What might prevent the character from getting it?
What will make that situation worse?
And, what will make THAT situation even worse?
Answer those questions.
Write it down in your story.

He said more, and you can read all about it in his book, Writing the Breakout Novel. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898799953/102-4337185-5782549?v=glance)

[James D Macdonald]

Good list, Ptom....

I put up the first two pages of a couple of Grisham novels (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=1941&stop=1960) a while back, and never did anything with 'em (though I'd intended to).

Does anyone want to take a whack at analysing those two excerpts in light of the breakout novel "page turner" checklist?

(If the readers haven't turned pages one and two, odds are they won't be turning pages three, four, or a hundred-and-four either.)

[pina la nina]

re: the page turner list especially the top 4:
"What is it the character wants?
What might prevent the character from getting it?
What will make that situation worse?
And, what will make THAT situation even worse?"

I think, for me, there's got to be a subtle element in there that - for lack of a better word - I'll call "hope."

That for all of problems the characters are facing and for all of the wrong turns they may take, the reader can see resolution happening. Not a precise solution, preferably (unless it's a vague one, like "find and arrest the murderer" or "make peace with self.") But there can be too much, for some readers, of all the suspenseful bits so that it overwhelms. Depresses, even. More suspense and problems are not always better.

The book I'm reading now has such a preponderance of all the aspects of the list - so many thwarted desires, so many people acting impulsively against their better interests that it's wearing me down a bit. It's just not that fun a read and it's just a matter of whether I get my lazy bum to the library before I finish it to know if I'll just leave those characters hanging. I'd call that the opposite of a page turner.

[Risseybug]

re: the page turner list especially the top 4:
"What is it the character wants?
What might prevent the character from getting it?
What will make that situation worse?
And, what will make THAT situation even worse?"


Good, then I did it right. :) I can honestly answer all of those questions in my finished book.

What is it the character wants? - the main character wants to get home (this is a YA book).
What might prevent the character from getting it? The gate is locked and shouldn't be.
What will make that situation worse? The key that character needs has been stolen by evil sorceress.
What will make that situation even worse? Evil sorceress has captured all of main characters friends and plans to use the key to rule the world, then the universe.

It's kind of cut and dry, but at least I answered all the questions :)

[tfdswift]

I just want to say that I finally, FINALLY got to the end of this thread. Now I am caught up with the rest of you. WHEW!!!!:jump :party :clap :snoopy

~~Tammy

[ChunkyC]

Well done, Tammy! When I showed up here, it was just shy of 30 pages and I thought I'd never catch up. I'm in awe. :thumbs

[Joanclr]

Does anyone want to take a whack at analysing those two excerpts in light of the breakout novel "page turner" checklist?

In my very general, off-the-cuff opinion, I would say that what makes those two excerpts page turners are:

A: The Summons - Instant mystery. What is 'it'? Who is this strange character who sent 'it'? What will happen when 'it' is opened? How will the main character be affected?

B: The Street Lawyer - Instant conflict. Not two pages into the thing and you already have a gun out. Can't beat that. And from the first line, there is a sharp delineation of opposites, someone who doesn't belong, with foreshadowing hints of something being "not quite right."

How's that for a starter?

[tfdswift]

Because I live in such a small rural area, I don't have alot of access to books. I have had to order almost every book that Uncle Jim has suggested reading. I always go to the online card catalog of my local library (which is actually across the state line) and see if they have the book first.

Back a couple of pages, somebody mentioned that some of Karen Ranney's and Uncle Jim's books are in the library. I typed their names into the catalog and nothing came up for them in my local library:(

So I was wondering if you could tell me some of the titles of your works so I can try to find them to read. We don't even have a book store nearby, so I can check them out.

Usually what I do is have my library order them for me and then if I like them I make the two hour trip to the bookstore and purchase them.

So could you please drop a few titles in here for me to check out? Starting with what YOU feel is your best works. I am sure I have probably missed your website, so if it would be easier just give me your personal website. I have not gone to the workshop site because I am sure I can not afford that.

Thanks.

~~Tammy

[HConn]

Tammy, my library website has a page where I can request that they buy books or do an ILL (Interlibrary loan).

If you enter the ISBN of a book you want to read, they might be able to find it in another system nearby.

Have you tried that?

[James D Macdonald]

In The Summons, our protagonist won't get around to opening that darned letter for another two pages.

Oh, and Tammy? Interlibrary loan really is your friend. I live in a town of 2,500 (55 miles by road from the nearest bookstore) -- and I can get anything I want.

[tfdswift]

I know. I use interlibrary loans, but I need some titles first (hint, hint);)

~~Tammy

[HConn]

Uncle Jim's Home Page. (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/index.htp)

Karen Ranney's Home Page. (http://www.karenranney.com/)

I'm sure they have bibliographies there.

[maestrowork]

Yeah, give him a letter than wait for him to open that darn letter... that's suspense.

However, if you do that TOO often and not deftly enough, it's coy. And if you (the narrator) say/imply the "hey, I know what it says, but I'm not telling you -- when will I tell you? I'm not telling you that either," it's downright criminal (IMHO).

Suspense can be really fun, and it doesn't stop at thriller/mystery/horror. A love story can have lots of suspense, too, if done right.

[James D Macdonald]

In the case of The Street Lawyer, the character's problems go from "Oooo, I'm standing next to a smelly bum," to "How do I get the smelly bum out of the office?" to "How do I avoid getting shot in the head?" all inside two pages.

[LiamJackson]

In The Summons, our protagonist won't get around to opening that darned letter for another two pages.

I'm a character-driven reader. Until I had some insight into the protags character, a sense of his history and background, I didn't give a hoot whether he opened the letter or not. I figured he'd get around to it, when he got around to it.

Once I had a sense of the setting, and more importantly, the personality of the character, my interest level increased by several points.

[maestrowork]

What kinds of characterizations interest you? Does the protag has to be likeable? Quirky? Strong? Interesting (and define interesting)? Or at least show some kind of humanity for you to care if he opens the letter or not.

I'm character-driven as well. I accept, to a point and with certain genres, some type of suspense (person getting killed, forex, in a thriller's opening chapter) without having to care about the person. But suspense is so much better if you actually care about the character.

[JimMorcombe]

In the Summons, Grisham is not giving him a letter than waiting for him to open the darn letter.


He is beginning his novel by telling us about the characters in it. But rather than just tell about the characters, he is enclosing it in an element of suspense.

Note that Grisham obviously had control over the title of the book. The opening wouldn't work as well if the title didn't alude to it. The title makes the letter assume enough importance for the suspense to hold through two pages.

[JimMorcombe]

Grisham breaks all the modern rules about putting a hook in the first paragraph or in the first line. You don't rush Grisham.

He introduces characters. He makes the characters so real you feel you know them and live them. Who else can start a book with a slow, boring trip up an elevator?

In the first paragraph Grisham engages our curiosity. We want to hear the gossip about the street bum. Thats the word I always think of when reading Grisham: "gossip".

We like to know things about other people and Grisham tells us about other people, all kinds of useless things about other people that are really interesting and have nothing to do with the plot.

However, in the Street Lawyer, Grisham is really setting up a "hook". He takes his time, he gets us involved and two pages later, we are his. Hook, line and sinker.

[James D Macdonald]

I'm confused there, Jim --

What't the difference between putting a hook in the first paragraph, and engaging our curiosity in the first paragraph?

[maestrowork]

Grisham is so huge that he can probably write toilet limericks and people will still buy his book.

If you pay attention, you will see that he's getting away from the courtroom suspense genre: A Painted House, Skipping Christmas, The Bleacher... do we see a trend?

In a Painted House, he tells the story with a VERY languid pace. The first few chapters, almost nothing happens and very little suspense.

It's very risky. Because he is Grisham, people give him a chance. I had to start the book a few times (because I have short attention span and the beginning of A Painted House was SO slow)... but once I was at about page 60 I got into it and it worked, because by then I already cared about the characters.

But Grisham can afford to do that, because he is Grisham. For a new writer, you need a hook or something that tickle your curiosity right from the start, even for a literary fiction! When Grisham was relativelynew (A Time To Kill, The Firm, etc.) he did the "hook" thing.


I'm still learning how to do it. I tend to end the book much stronger than I start it. For me it's still not second nature to know how to hook a reader right from the start, but I'm getting there.

[JimMorcombe]

Uncle Jim

In my terminology, a hook is something that gets us interested in the book itself and won't be resolved until we have read enough to be committed to the book. Matbe it is something trivial and the author will resolve it before the end of chapter one or maybe its central to the plao and won't be resolved until the end of the book. But it is a raises a question (and hopefully a bit of suspense). We need to read on while it is resolved and that gives the author time to build his characters and have us committed to the book.

Grisham doesn't start with something that needs to be resolved. He doesn't ask any questions that we need to keep reading to find the answers. All he does is chat about some interesting characters. He makes them so interesting our curiosity is engaged and we want to know more about the characters.

In your own words: The character's problems go from "Oooo, I'm standing next to a smelly bum," to "How do I get the smelly bum out of the office?" to "How do I avoid getting shot in the head?" all inside two pages.

"I am standing next to a smelly bum" doesn't raise anything that needs to be resolved. But it does engage our curiosity. What I consider the 'gosip factor' in us.

"How do I avoid getting shot in the head", accompanied with the bigger question "What the hell is going on here?" is one serious, whopping great hook that will definitely keep the reader committed while Grisham sets up whatever he wants to.

Grisham is a genious. (But he still needs to go to your course on 'How to Plot'. "Bleachers" was a washout and "The Last Juror" kind of 'lost the plot'. No pun intended. But I still read until I hit 'The End')

Nephew Jim

[JimMorcombe]

maestrowork

I've had 'The Painted House' for two years and have never managed to finish it. (Part of the problem is that I bought a copy with miniscule print.) Even after the fight and the killings, even after the 'naked girl in the river' I still haven't been able to finish it.

But I do enjoy reading it. I just never get committed enough to finish the book. I often pick it up and read a few pages. Just can't get interested enough to finish it.

Jim

[JimMorcombe]

Uncle Jim

Sorry to keep returning to this stuff..

1. Way earlier, back when we were discussing little miss 'Misunderstood Authoress', you suggested she adopt a new Pen Name and change publisher. If she were using an agent (and she seemed to be) would she seek a different agent? If so, does the new agent get to know who she is?

2. If you use a different Pen Name for different genres, shouldn't you use a different agent as well?

3. Uncle Jim writes for different genres. Why is his YA work piblished under the same name as his adult stuff?

[Pthom]

Have another pen name question:

I know how to indicate (on a manuscript) that a pen name is to be used. But if you write under a pen name, how is the work copyrighted?

If Jane Smith (her legal name) wants her novel to appear as:

The Story by Neville Sunderland,

how does the copyright notice inside read?

Copyright ©200x by Neville Sunderland
-or-
Copyright ©200x by Jane Smith

If it reads Neville Sunderland, is there some facility in the copyright law that points to Jane Smith for her protection, in case of (horrors) any litigation that may arrise?

Realizing that copyright law differs from country to country, I'm only interested in the U.S. Copyright Law. I also realize this question may have been answered somewhere before here, but I couldn't find it.

[tfdswift]

Quote:

If it reads Neville Sunderland, is there some facility in the copyright law that points to Jane Smith for her protection, in case of (horrors) any litigation that may arrise?
__________________________________________________ __

In the USA when you fill out the copyright form it has a place for your name and your pen name if you use one.

~~Tammy

[maestrowork]

Look at a Richard Bachman's book. What does the copyright say? Is it Richard Bachman or Stephen King or some other enterprise?

[Jules Hall]

Every copy I've ever seen has "Stephen King writing as Richard Bachman" in big letters on the front. I think that edition sold substantially more copies than the original one. I wouldn't be confident that you'd get a good result on this basis. :)

As an aside, under international copyright protocols I don't believe you need a copyright notice to get protection. Although I have seen text like "<xxx> has asserted his moral right to be identified as the author of this work," and I have no idea what exactly that achieves from a legal standpoint. I also don't know whether or not that's something uniquely British -- I also frequently see something similar ("The right of XXX to be identified as author of this work has been asserted in accordance with ss. 77 and 78 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988") which I know _is_ UK specific.

An interesting idea -- the book I just found that in is copyright to a company that is clearly owned by the author. Have you considered incorporating "(your pen name) LLC" ? There are potential downsides to this: I believe you'll only get copyright protection for 70 years, rather than until 70 years after you die... but 70 years ought to be long enough to make any profit you're going to; there may or may not be tax implications, I don't know anything about US tax law; there will _definitely_ be lots of paperwork.

[pdr]

The problems with copyright tend to crop up after a writer's death.
If you use pen names you must have them very clearly identified with your legal name so that when you leave your copyrights to your family/ friends/whoever there can be no doubt that Bunny Muggins is also Funny Juggins and both are the pen names of Betty Smith. Make sure you have legal documents somewhere safe - like with your will - that prove your work written under those pen names is yours and then your heirs have no problems. This is true wherever you live.

[wwwatcher]

Thanks Julie for the Revision checklist for my question a while back and Jim for your story (this is the kind of thing I'm trying to avoid, though I suspect the only way I'll find my "Final Revision Checklist" is by experience.) And yes, I need to read The Unstrung Harp

Now to the Grisham tales and this page turner question: "Does anyone want to take a whack at analysing those two excerpts in light of the breakout novel "page turner" checklist?"

I liked that both situations he set up had a multitude of possible directions to go. This grabbed my curiosity as a reader and had me thirsting for every little new clue that would tell me which scenerio the author has chosen. Each time he adds a new element some questions are answered but, depending upon the element, new questions are posed.

The Summons

What's in the letter?
What could be in a letter from a man like this?
What could be in a letter to his son?
What could it mean that this Judge is in Mississippi?

The Street Lawyer

Why is a bum in a commercial building?
Rubber Boots are they a clue?
Odor and appearance of a homeless person, why is a homeless person in a lawyer's elevator?
What could it mean that this is happening in D.C.?
Why is the bum ignoring him?
Why didn't the security guards stop him in the lobby?
Is the bum following him or is the lawyer just paranoid?
Surprise! Gunshots!
(I'm still trying to figure out what it was about the guy that hinted he may not be an ordinary bum.)
"Shut up!" .... composure. (He's not acting like a bum.)

Why is he here?
What does he want?
He's in control, so he has planned this, what events have brought him to this office?
Etc, etc.

Faye

[maestrowork]

Good list, Faye. I think that's the thing about page turners: questions that the readers want to be answered. And not just any questions. The higher the stakes these questions pertain to, the better.

Sometimes I'm confused, though, about how much to hold back (to create that suspense) and how much to reveal. Sometimes my readers would ask me questions like: Who is she? Why did she say something like that? What is in the box? And when I say, "You'll find out if you read on," they'd roll their eyes and say I should explain it right there.

Is it that some people don't understand suspense and they're impatient when they have read on to "find out." Or is it because I wrote it poorly and didn't explain something enough?

[JuliePgh]

Help! I'm losing perspective. When is it appropriate to give an inanimate object control of the action?

Which of the following is acceptable?
The gun pressed into her ribs.
He pressed the gun into her ribs.:b :b

[HConn]

Is it that some people don't understand suspense and they're impatient when they have read on to "find out." Or is it because I wrote it poorly and didn't explain something enough?

I think it's hard to tell. Some readers aren't very sophisticated and will not want to be kept in a state of suspense. Because they know the work is not "finished" they'll try to make you change it to suit their momentary discomfort. A better reader will savor the suspense.

Then again, they may be genuinely confused to the point where they can't connect to the work. Their confusion prevents them from hitting their reader's trance.

But then, if this stuff was easy, I'd be able to do it.

:)

[ChunkyC]

Which of the following is acceptable?
The gun pressed into her ribs.
He pressed the gun into her ribs.
I think #2 is 'correct' because a gun can't press itself into her ribs. In some situations, #1 could more accurately create the image you want, as in the person being focused on the physical sensation of the gun against her body, and not the person wielding it.

[HConn]

Especially if the POV character can't see the person holding the gun.

[maestrowork]

In general, I'll pick a second choice, but as HConn mentioned, if the POV character (the woman) doesn't know who's holding the gun, the first choice is acceptable.

[Pthom]

I think the solution to whether the gun presses or he presses it can't be decided by the choice of just these two sentences. It depends on how the scene is set up and who the POV character is:Julie shrank back until she couldn't move any farther. She couldn't take her eyes from the gun in Jake's hand. Then he was there. His cheap aftershave lotion couldn't mask his foul breath. She looked up.

"Jake ... no ..."

"Nowhere to hide now, is there, Julie baby?" The door knob pressed into her back, the gun pressed into her ribs.or:Handcock watched in horror as the thug approached his wife. In his hand was the Glock from the cabinet in the den.

"No, don't hurt her!"

"Shut up," the man said. "Another word from you and your wife won't see her the sun rise." He pressed the gun into her ribs.

[ChunkyC]

Good elaborations, Pthom. In each case, it's the POV character's emotional response to the circumstances that determines how the gun should be described.

[wwwatcher]

Maestro

"Is it that some people don't understand suspense and they're impatient when they have read on to "find out." Or is it because I wrote it poorly and didn't explain something enough?"

This is a question all writer's must ask themselves at some time or another. I am beginning to think it's a question you want the editor to answer for you. If you're feeling like your piece of work has been honed and passed through beta readers enough and your gut says that this is the last question you're asking, then send it out and let the editors/agents tell you where to go next.

If you've reached this level in the writing, Maestro, congratulations! Do a victory dance! \/\/\/\/\/\/
(Sorry I can't use smileys right now)

Take Care,
Faye

[wwwatcher]

Julie

"Which of the following is acceptable?
The gun pressed into her ribs.
He pressed the gun into her ribs."

The first is passive in tone; the second is active.

If the assailant is confused and not in control the first may be a good choice. (He's distancing himself from the gun.)

If the assailant is asserting and controlling (like the man with the rubber boots above) then the second would be best.

Make sense?
Faye

[maestrowork]

For example, in your FIRST chapter, you introduce two characters. Because you're not giving their entire backstory, you are only letting the readers know about them through their interactions and dialogues. So far you let on:

1) they're lovers
2) one of them just killed someone
3) one is hiding a secret

So at this point, the readers are probably asking these questions:

1) who are they, and how did they meet, etc.?
2) who did he kill?
3) what is the secret?
4) why is she not telling him?
5) what is going to happen?

To me that's suspense. But sometimes you hear a comment from someone like "I don't understand this. So who is she?... " and question the author because they don't understand (for lack of backstory) why the two lovers act that way (with deceit) with each other.

In a way, it's like in real life. Some people love to hear the story as it's told and fill in the blanks on their own. Some like to ask all kind of background questions (What does she do? How did they meet? Age? Background? Etc.)

When you hear comments like that from your readers, do you:

1) congratulate yourself for creating suspense?
2) worry that they're so confused that they won't read on?
3) note their concerns and see if any of their questions are valid and if they ARE indeed answered (and not only until the END of the book)

For example, do you present the reason why one doesn't trust the other right off the beginning (that they have a trust issue because one has run out on the other before)? Or do you leave that as a suspense, then later reveal about the trust issue?

I ask these questions because suspense/page-turner is an interesting topic for me. People have said that at least the second 2/3 of my ms. is "suspenseful" but all the questions are answered at the end. I just wonder, is there a case when there's too much suspense that the readers would get turned off because they feel like they're in the dark all the time? Or when do you say, "What she does for a living is NOT important to the story."

[SRHowen]

frustrated with the --why did they do this, or when did they meet questions. If I told the whole story int he first chapter then why bother reading on.

I think some of the difference comes from reading for pleasure and beta reading. When we read for pleasure we read the book and enjoy it--(or not as the case may be) If we have questions we turn the page to get an answer. When we beta read or critique we note that, hey, I had a question here, or I wanted to know more about why this happened. So those questions are given to the writer--I wanted to know more in chapter one why they did this.

A general reader is going to have questions, if they didn't have unanswered questions then they would have no reason to read on--we just have to keep the difference in mind when we crit, beta read, or receive a crit.

Shawn

[Clearrr]

I think it has to do with why people read suspense or mystery. There's the challenge of trying to figure it out. Also, the question of "honest" challenge comes into play. The author who whips out "the great-great-aunt Matilda" who really was the guy in the clown suit as the evil-doer irritates readers, IMHO.

[wwwatcher]

Maestro

You say "People have said that at least the second 2/3 of my ms. is "suspenseful" but all the questions are answered at the end."

Our discussion of page-turners here suggests that the first 1/3 ideally should be a page turner too. Are you concerned that yours is not? Are you throwing out the little tidbits that keep them asking more new questions? Is this what you are really concerned about? Is this what you think your beta readers may be trying to tell you? Is yours a suspense novel? Is your gut telling you it's not as good as it can be yet?

Faye

[maestrowork]

Faye,

I mean the first part was suspenseful enough too (questions that need answered, wondering what happens next to the protag, how the story unfolds, etc.) What I mean is that the plot turns in the second half are more unpredictable and the readers are more comfortable with the suspense elements by then (partially because they know the answers will be revealed sooner or later).

No, my story is not suspense/thriller/mystery. So it's actually quite interesting to hear someone say it's "suspenseful" and "not predictable" or "I didn't see that coming."

My questions come back to suspense in the beginning when people start asking "well, who is she? And when will we find out?"

[Yeshanu]

Faye,

Sorry to disagree with you, but both the "gun" sentences are in the active voice, and either could be correct in certain circumstances.

"The gun pressed into her ribs." The gun (subject) is doing the pressing, therefore the sentence is active voice.

"The gun was pressed into her ribs." Here, someone not mentioned is pressing the gun into her ribs, therefore, the gun is passive and so is the sentence. Much less powerful than the above, but it, too, could be correct in the right place. For instance, it might serve to highlight the character's powerlessness over events, etc.

[reph]

Yeshanu, Faye said the sentence was "passive in tone," not that it was in passive voice. Anyway, "pressed" in "The gun was pressed into her ribs" could be construed as a participial adjective, like "stuck" in "The poster was stuck to the wall, and nobody could get it loose."

[Yeshanu]

Oops -- didn't read the "in tone" part... :o

Personally, though, if a gun pressed into my ribs, I wouldn't think it very passive in tone at all... :b

[maestrowork]

Well it's arguable given we only has sentence fragments here without the context. Is it the gun that is doing the pressing, or is it, as Reph said, a participial adjective as in: "the gun pressed into her ribs was hurting her"?

[JuliePgh]

No participial adjective intended. Question was based on whether "He pressed the gun into her ribs" could be modified to "The gun pressed into her ribs." Obviously someone is holding the gun, but by removing "he" from the action, I wasn't sure if the gun doing the 'pressing' was "acceptable." I prefaced the initial question by saying, "I'm losing perspective. When is it appropriate to give an inanimate object control of the action?"

What sparked this question was a thread some while back (which I can't locate) regarding, and forgive me if I don't remember clearly, the inappropriateness of inanimate objects displaying emotions. Perhaps someone could point me to the thread or briefly review. Thank you.

[Yeshanu]

I remember the discussion, but I can't find it just now...

If I remember correctly, I think it was more along the lines of personification of inanimate objects, for example, "a weeping sky," etc. A sky can't weep -- it has no feelings-- but a gun can certainly press into someone's back. So I don't think that's the problem here.

[reph]

Julie, in response to your newly restated question, I'd say that "The gun pressed into her ribs" is perfectly all right. An inanimate object can press into something. (Similarly, you can say "The ball bearing rolled across the floor" without attributing intention to the ball bearing.) I agree with those who said the choice of wording depends on POV.

[maestrowork]

"The gun pressed into her ribs" -- the inanimate object is not showing emotion. Simply an action, so it's perfectly fine (as in "the window smacked her in the head").

Now if you say "the gun teased and taunted her..." it might borderline on pathetic fallacy.

[JuliePgh]

Thanks, Maestro, "pathetic fallacy" was the term I was looking for but I still can't find it under the search function.

I hate to revisit an old topic, but what exactly is wrong with saying something like 'the gun teased and taunted her...'? Can't such a statement be used to imply the character's state of mind instead of trying to convince the reader that the gun has emotions? And I don't mean that the character has to have psychological problems either. I'm just thinking about that left over piece of chocolate birthday cake that keeps calling me, begging me to eat it ...

[maestrowork]

Well, but why don't you just say "the assailant teased and taunted her with the gun?" The "teasing" and "taunting" belong to the man who holds the gun -- a gun itself can't tease.

Also, if you do "the gun teased and taunted her" you have a POV problem because the POV character is the woman, not the man or the gun.

I said it's borderline because "teasing" and "taunting" can be acceptable in the right situation. But things like "the sky weeps with tears" or "the gun laughed at her" is definitely pathetic fallacy.

I think most of it depends on if you're projecting the characters feelings on the object. In your case, for example, "the cake keeps calling me" -- 1) it's a projection of your desire; 2) there's actually not a lot of inherent "feelings" in calling. But if you say: "the cake laughed at me because I was fat" it's pushing pathetic fallacy, even though you're still projecting. Sometimes the difference is very subtle.

[ChunkyC]

I think you could 'push the envelope' of pathetic fallacy if you have set your reader up properly with a character who would be believable projecting onto inanimate objects in that way. It would be a tricky business, but worth it if you do it just right.

[macalicious731]

I've got a bit of a formatting question. I've seen the examples... drop the title halfway down, then start the chapter a few lines after that... I have all of the formalities.

However, I've never seen an example which might include a sub-heading, such as "Part One." Is there a specific number of lines needed to seperate the title from the subheading, and then again for the chapter? I know some books disregard "Part One" all together, but it's something I would like to include, at least for now.

Thanks!

[ChunkyC]

I was told to treat it in the same way as a chapter heading, and push the chapter heading down the same distance as the text is from the chapter heading itself:

novel / by me / pg.101 (right-justified header)







PART TWO



CHAPTER TWENTY-TWO



And so begins the second part of our journey blah blah blah....

[macalicious731]

Okay, that makes sense. But what if it's "Part One"? Because then you're already starting halfway down the page, and if you used a new page... doesn't that violate the "no title page" part?

Hmm... ....

[ChunkyC]

I would put PART ONE where you would have put CHAPTER ONE, then move down four lines (hit ENTER twice if you're already set for double-spacing), put CHAPTER ONE and continue on as normal. It won't push the body of the story completely off the first page, though it does mean there'll be fewer lines of the body of the story itself, but that's not really all that big a deal, I don't think.

I'm sure Uncle Jim or some of the other published writers can tell us if this is acceptable.

[Euan Harvey]

Uncle Jim,

Have you got any suggestions for how to deal with the emotions and feelings of a POV character when in tight 3rd person?

The reason I ask is that I've been told that saying things like 'X frowned' 'X smiled' 'X whatevered' is sometimes a POV glitch, as X couldn't see themselves smile, frown whatever. So it should look like 'X felt himself frown', which seems kinda clunky to me.

So, showing emotion through body language and expression is seen as a POV glitch, which leaves things like: 'X felt nervous', 'X felt rage ignite within him', 'A wave of fear rose up within X', but I've been told that things like this are a bit 'telly' and distance the reader.

Any suggestions?

Euan.

[maestrowork]

The reason I ask is that I've been told that saying things like 'X frowned' 'X smiled' 'X whatevered' is sometimes a POV glitch, as X couldn't see themselves smile, frown whatever. So it should look like 'X felt himself frown', which seems kinda clunky to me.

No, frown or smile are fine because even though you can't see your own smile or frown, you know you ARE smiling or frowning. I don't see any problem with POV.

I think some writers (I don't where you read about this "POV glitch" idea) take the POV thing too far. Remember the narrator POV which is omnicient when you write in 3rd limited, and stop filtering everything through your POV character (he saw, he felt, he heard...) when something happened, just tell it since the narrator knows everything. It is when you go inside the character's head or describe the actual "feeling" (and not the expression of it which are "frowns" or "smiles" or "huffs" etc.) that you need to be limit yourself to POV character.


If you say, "Her face flushed scarlet" it maybe construed as a POV glitch but since you're telling from 3rd limited, no problem. Remember, even in 3rd person, the narrator is still a character. The narrator knows everything (but can only go into the mind of one character at a time in 3rd limited). So the narrator can certainly say "X's face turned red" -- not a POV glitch.

However, if you're writing in 1st person, then clearly you can't see your own face turning red. You will have to say something like "I feel like my face is turning red."

[James D Macdonald]

I'm not at my usual computer; I'm enroute to WorldCon right now (see some of you there!).

Briefly --

First page of novel that has parts:

<PRE>
Your name
Address
City, State, ZIP
(Phone)/Email






Title
by
Name

Part One

Chapter One

He was a dark and stormy knight....
</pre>


Formatting is not such an exact thing that people will sneer at you for not having the precisely "right" number of spaces between the chapter heading and the first line of text. What I'd do in that case is put "Part One" where normally I'd put "Chapter One," then double-space, put "Chapter One," then double-space, indent, and start the story.

<HR>

You get into the pathetic fallacy when you say something like "She felt the angry muzzle of the gun pressed into her side." Even then, I can see using phrases like that for spice. Just don't over-do it, and make sure that it reveals character.

(Side note: when discussing hypothetical phrasings, recall that the paragraph is the smallest unit of your story. Look at the sentence in a paragraph to see how it sounds and how it flows.)

<HR>

In third person, the narrator can see everything, but can only enter one person's head at a time. You can say "Ralph felt himself coloring" or "Irene blushed" without breaking POV if you're in Ralph's head (provided Ralph can see Irene).

<HR>

I promise to come back and do much fuller comments on stuff all the way back to the Grisham, soon.

And I still owe y'all the Firedoor Theory of Novel Construction.

[reph]

People don't feel their faces turn red, but they do feel them turn hot. Writers commonly take advantage of the felt temperature change to "show" blushing or anger. In fact, when I read about some character who sensed that his face was heating up, I think "That writer went to a workshop and learned about POV. Homework done – check!"

Maybe the hot-face device is too common and everybody should now stop using it.

[macalicious731]

Thanks Chunk/Jim! Problem solved.

[ChunkyC]

He was a dark and stormy knight....
:rofl

Is there an actual book that begins with this? If so, I REALLY want to read it!

[Yeshanu]

I'll write it, and you can beta read. Okay, CC? :b

But I might change it just a tad...

She was a dark and stormy knight.

Hm... Maybe I'll just start a thread on the writing exercises and prompts board... :grin (See ya over there...)

[HConn]

Have fun at Worldcon, Jim.

[gp101]

I know I've asked font questions before, and I know we're to use Courier for our manuscripts. However...

Has anyone had this happen to them:

you change the font on your document from TR to Courier and there are a lot of little hiccups? Most notably, it appears you get a space after each opening quotation mark? So that "Forget it." becomes " Forget it."

Is this common to everyone? Is this acceptable to agents/publishers for a manuscript?

It doesn't happen in the Courier New font, just in the plain Courier font; but Courier New adds on considerably more pages at 12-point. I noticed the text in Courier New is considerably larger than text in plain old Courier or TR, so I tried Courier New (since it is more attractive with fewer hiccups) in 10-point and 11-point, but the text is visibly smaller than plain Courier or TR, so I won't try that again.

What's the verdict? Is plain old Courier 12-point the best way to go even if it leaves a space after each opening quotation mark? Or do I need to use Courier New 12-point, and add on fifty more pages?

Appreciate any advice.

[HConn]

gp, is this a spacebar space, so that, if you keyed the cursor along the word, it has an extra space in there to move across? Or is it just roomy in there, with no spacebar space?

[Gala]

I suggest Courier New, and not just because I worked on the dev of that font years ago ;)

Courier new is a Unicode font, it installs automatically with an operating system, printer drivers know it, as does software.

IOW, if you want fewer hiccups viewing, printing, attaching files, Courier New is advisable.

As for that extra space after your opening ". When you show paragraph marks and spaces, do you see a space after it?

Or, can you insert your cursor and delete a space after the "?

I'm not familiar with any font changes inserting spaces. The would have to have been typed in or inserted with a search and replace.

[maestrowork]

I use Dark Courier (thanks Uncle Jim) because it prints better, and also it automatically turns into Courier New on a system that doesn't have the font.

[Yeshanu]

Courier New adds on considerably more pages at 12-point.

Even Courier New 10-point will add pages over 12-point TNR. I think because it's an equal-spaced font (each letter gets the same amount of space) as opposed to TNR, which doesn't do that. (I could be wrong here, but if I am, Uncle Jim or somebody will be able to help with that.)

I guess that's why editors might prefer it -- fewer words per page (up to a point) are easier to read.

Oh, and Uncle Jim, when you get back, how was WorldCon? (From an envious non-attendee... :cry )

[JuliePgh]

I was reading about Set Pieces earlier today and the concept hasn't quite sunk in. How does a set piece differ from foreshadowing? They seem to be related, differing mostly by length. Thanks.

[James D Macdonald]

What do you mean by a "set piece"?

For me, a set piece is a special/spectacular action section that functions pretty-much as a unit, while foreshadowing is preparing the reader for events that will happen later, so the reader won't be blindsided. (Readers hate surprises.)

[maestrowork]

Set pieces are your big scenes (in action movie terms: King Kong on top of the Empire State Building; or in romantic comedy: When Harry tells Sally he loves her at the New Year's Eve ball)...

[JuliePgh]

I thought set piece was a smaller scene which set the stage for a revelation or large action scene.

[James D Macdonald]

You're constantly doing foreshadowing.

[HConn]

I had a couple free days, so I spent them doing one of Uncle Jim's exercises: I retyped a first chapter.

Actually, I retyped a short story and a first chapter.

It was very interesting. Nothing I could quantify in a post that makes sense, but I learned a lot.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[gp101]

HCON: the space I get in normal Courier can't be deleted. The cursor just passes over it like it was a part of the opening question mark.

YESH: yeah, I realize Courier adds more pages, but Courier New adds a LOT more new pages. At 340 pages in TNR (86,000 words), my manuscript goes to about 400 in normal Courier 12-pt, but swells to 450 pages in Courier New 12-pt.

So, is the consensus that Courier New is acceptable/preferable? 450 pages from a newbie won't scare publishers though it's only 86,000 words?

Thanks, all.

[gp101]

HCON: I meant the opening QUOTATION mark in my previous post, not the opening QUESTION mark. Sorry.

[James D Macdonald]

It sounds like the space you're seeing after the quote mark is part of the quote-mark itself -- since it's monospaced it isn't closed up to the following character as closely.

No, a 450 page manuscript in Courier 12 won't scare an editor even if it's only 86,000 words. What will scare him is if those words aren't the right words.

There's still a lot of hand work with pencils that takes place on our manuscripts. Those pencil marks take room. Give the editor, line editor, copy editor, and proofreader some space to work with.

[SRHowen]

I think a lot of the time, we get caught up in how the ms looks. Looking back at what you've written, you want it to look a certain way. What way?

Like a published book. Italics, bold, font, you want it to look that way---you want the number of pages to somehow match the published work.

That's not what you're doing. That will happen when they are put in book form.

Right now you want something an editor or agent won't go blind trying to read--you want industry standards (which are there for good reasons) (don't question, just do) Courier, or Courier New, or other mono-spaced fonts are not pretty. They, to us, (who read the finished products off the shelf) look weird. That font just doesn't look good, I hear so often, but Italics look better, that dumb underline looks stupid.

Unless you are used to them, then they don't.

Number of ms pages--who cares? It's the number of words that matter.

Heck, I print out a triple spaced copy in Courier Dark, to use the ol red pencil on myself--talk about a huge number of pages!:ack

Somethings are a just do and accept, rather than argue or discuss to the consistency of butter on tar in southern Texas in Aug.

Shawn

[maestrowork]

I thought set piece was a smaller scene which set the stage for a revelation or large action scene.

Ah, I see where the confusion enters the picture. "Set" as in "setting things up..."

Set piece is also a filmmaking term. A set piece is one that has a BIG set: parting of the Red Sea; a multi car crash; a big flood; the attack of Shelob; a big climax, etc.

Foreshadows are what lead to these set pieces.

[Yeshanu]

YESH: yeah, I realize Courier adds more pages, but Courier New adds a LOT more new pages. At 340 pages in TNR (86,000 words), my manuscript goes to about 400 in normal Courier 12-pt, but swells to 450 pages in Courier New 12-pt.

Hmm...

When I type out a ms with no dialogue, I get 350 words/page appoximately in TNR 12, and 250/page in Courier New 10. That would give you a ms of 119,000 words or so. Do you have a great deal of dialogue?

As Uncle Jim said, it's not really the number of pages that counts (editors want word counts, not number of pages) and whether or not the words on those pages are the right words. Dialogue is great, but IMHO, too much of it, and you end up with "talking head" syndrome.

Way back on this thread, Uncle Jim told us to tape 10 pages up on the wall and look for balance of white and black. Something you might want to try...

[gp101]

YESH: yeah, lots of dialogue, but not the explicatory variety. Think I have a good balance of prose and pages with "white space".

SHAWN: I can see where my manic pleas regarding fonts might make you think I'm looking for short-cuts or a bending of the rules of format. but this isn't the case. I think you misunderstand my (anal) questioning regarding fonts. I do adhere to industry standards and follow guidelines. But because I was getting an additional space after the opening quotation mark--something that looked particularly horrible--I wanted to make sure whether this was common/acceptable or if I was using the wrong font. I'm not looking for the smallest font available, just the right one, so sorry if my neurosis over font confused you. And thanks for the reply.

UNCLE JIM: thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!

[HConn]

But because I was getting an additional space after the opening quotation mark--something that looked particularly horrible--

I don't think you should worry about it. People used to reading those fonts will be used to seeing that "space."

After a little while, it'll look normal to you, too.

Good luck.

[James D Macdonald]

We just sold a book on proposal (three-and-an-outline) to Avon/EOS. $40K advance. Now we just have to write the darned thing. The working title is The Land of Mist and Snow.

Here's the first chapter. Remember, this is unedited first draft.

<HR>
<blockquote>
Chapter One

In the winter of 1862 I was an idler; assigned to the War Department office at 88 Whitehall Street in the city of New-York after my ship, USS Tisdale, burned when the Rebels took Norfolk.

Time weighed heavily on me, for while my brother officers were gaining rank and experiencing sea-time in maintaining the blockade and chasing the raiders, I was filing papers in an obscure office. I feared that my career would be stalled, if not derailed entirely, the goal of command at sea forever placed beyond my reach.

So it was that a messenger found me laboring at my desk, checking one long bureaucratic list against another, an envelope from the Navy Department in his hand with my name on the front. I fairly tore the envelope from his hand and opened it.

What it contained was indeed the answer to my nightly prayer. I was detached immediately from my current assignment to travel by fastest available means to the Naval Arsenal at Watervliet, to inspect and take possession of a dozen ten-inch Rodman guns, thence to accompany them to the place where USS Nicodemus might lie, there to take my position as head of her gunnery department. Nicodemus was new construction; I would be a plank owner. Nicodemus, I was informed, was even then fitting out in preparation of her sea trials.

The remainder of the morning I spent in checking out of my temporary billet, drawing my health and pay records, and turning over my responsibilities to a hapless civilian clerk.

I had been staying at a hotel under per diem. I lost no time in packing, and the afternoon saw me at the Hudson River Railroad station in my dress blue uniform, purchasing a ticket to Albany. Spring approached; dusk fell later each day, but it was still full dark before a carriage deposited me at the gates of the arsenal.

A Marine guard directed me to the duty officer, who saw to my placement in the Bachelor Officer Quarters. There I said my prayers and went to sleep, wondering what kind of craft Nicodemus might be. I had not heard of her before, though in an eddying backwater such as my office at Whitehall Street that would not be a surprise. Still, a sloop of war mounting a broadside of six Rodmans and, I supposed, lesser pieces besides, would be impressive enough. I was well satisfied with my prospects.

Morning found me in the Arsenal commander's office, presenting my compliments and my orders. The commander, a pleasant enough fellow named Winchell who had preceded me by two years at the Academy, greeted me and offered to accompany me himself on my inspection tour of the guns. I felt it was hardly my place to refuse, and I was just as glad to talk again with a sailor; my previous tour had placed my among civilians and invalided Army men, landsmen all.

As it turned out, he wanted to do more than talk of mutual acquaintances while showing off his command to an outsider. He wanted to pump me for information, information that I sadly lacked, and which baffled me as well.

"You see, Johnny," he said as we entered the sheds facing the Hudson where the guns stood, "they're cast to spec, though why the devil the specs were written that way eludes me."

The guns stood in a burnished rank, gleaming the yellow-gold of brass.

"Brass cannon," I said.

"Yes, brass, as ordered," Winchell said, and here he gestured to a chief petty officer standing by, the crossed cannon of the gunners mate on his right sleeve. "And virgin brass too; never before cast into any other shape."

The chief strode over and presented his leader with a sheaf of paper, which he reviewed, then handed to me. It was the casting history of each of the Rodmans, from the first smelting of the copper and zinc to the present.

I checked over the cannon carefully. I was no stranger to ordnance; the lives of myself and my shipmates, not to mention the defeat of our enemies, were dependent on the flawless construction and operation of the cannon. I requested an inspection mirror and a light, and examined every inch of the barrels, inside and out. They did in fact seem flawless.

I turned to Winchell at length. "You can be proud of your work," I said.

"Do you wish to examine the ammunition as well?" he inquired.

"To the same specifications?" said I.

"The same, virgin brass."

"I can't believe it will be necessary to handle each ball," I said, which brought a smile to his lips. Winchell gave orders that the cannon were to be crated and loaded on a barge for transport. He then invited me to join him for a belated lunch. I accepted with pleasure.

Over cigars at the officers' club, I made bold to breach the question directly.

"Where is it that these guns that I just signed for are to be shipped?"

"To Brooklyn, for the Navy Yard. So say the lading documents. They are being loaded onto a barge even now. A steam tug will tow them. Beyond that, I know nothing."

Across the river in Manhattan I had not heard of a ship under construction that required brass cannon. I asked Winchell directly if he had ever heard of such a vessel.

"No, indeed not. But I can scarcely hear of everything. Perhaps she's been laid in Boston."

"Perhaps."

He kindly walked me to the barge at quayside where my dozen Rodmans, neatly crated, now lay side by side on a barge. Crates that I supposed contained brass shot filled a second barge. We shook hands, saluted, and I presented my orders to the master of the civilian tug that was to take me down the river that I had only lately ascended. The pilothouse of the tug was cramped, and the smell of the engines pervasive, but I eagerly accepted the offer to make the journey there.

A brisk wind was blowing, and the slush turning to ice, while the sun dipped toward the western hills. A young enlisted man brought my seabag from my quarters and laid it on the fantail of the tug, lashed to the rail. Towing hawsers were made fast to the barges, and with our whistles screaming out we made way down river. The sun set as we steamed along, the lighthouses of the Hudson illuminated, as we made our way to the East River of Manhattan and to the Navy Yard on its eastern shore.

We came alongside a brig, TRIUMPH lettered on her sternboard in gold leaf, where we were evidently expected, for the watch soon appeared with a lantern, a ladder dropped to our deck, and a working party swung out booms to load the cargo from the barge to the brig's hold.

I clambered up the ladder, my boat cloak swirling around me, to salute the quarterdeck and the officer of the deck.

The degree of activity surprised me, and I said as much, for I had expected the guns to be loaded at first light, no sooner, for the night was a dark and a bitter one.

"Dark and cold, you'll get used to 'em where you're going," the officer said. "We sail with the tide or miss a day, and that won't make the old man happy, not a bit."

He concluded reading my orders by the binnacle lamp, then handed them back to me and instructed the messenger of the watch to take me below and show me to the captain's quarters, then to my own.

The captain, as it turned out, was "Uncle Joe" Suffern, of whom I had heard good report. He was a seaman's seaman, and a fighting captain. Why he was assigned to such a small vessel and such an insignificant role as running coastwise cargo I could not then imagine.

"Last of the Nicodemus wardroom," he said, having offered me a seat in his cabin and a glass of port. "I envy you. The outfitting should be done soon. I imagine sea trials shortly."

"Nicodemus, sir?"

"You are not aware? You and your guns are being transshipped to the Naval Experimental Shipyard, Thule."

"I confess that I've never heard of that shipyard, sir."

"Neither had I, until I was assigned to run cargo there. Not to breathe a word about the place to anyone, not even to a sweetheart or a wife, those are our instructions."

"What can you tell me about Nicodemus?" I asked.

"Nothing," he replied, "for I have not seen her myself, though I have been involved in her construction for over a year now."

Our conversation was interrupted by a messenger who announced the loading complete and the cargo made fast for sea. Captain Suffern excused himself, directed the boy to show me to my cabin, and took to the deck. I followed the messenger toward the waist, where I was to be placed in a cabin shared with another lieutenant. My seabag was already there, lying on the deck beside a stanchion.

I traded my boat cloak for a short jacket of thick wool and ascended the ladder to the main deck. The boatswain piped single up all lines, and the crew, well drilled, hurried silently to obey.

"Cast off," came a voice from the quarterdeck, and the line-handling party on the pier dropped the mooring lines from the bollards. The same tug that had carried the guns from Watervliet pulled us stern first into the stream, then cast off.

We hoisted sail, and beneath topgallants and the glittering stars passed beneath the Battery. I could see the War Department building, one window on the top floor illuminated by the lantern of a late worker. I imagined that it might be my relief burning the midnight oil and raised my hat to him as we passed.

As we entered the Narrows the word was passed to make full sail, and the little brig fairly bounded forward under a fresh breeze. By sunrise we were out of sight of land, the ship's head east by north, shaping a course for who knew where.

#

Although I was not slightly obligated to do so, I had myself placed on the watch bill, and stood my watches on the quarterdeck observing the sea, listening to the crack of canvas, hearing the groans of the cordage and tasting the salt spray on my lips.

The high North Atlantic is no easy sea, nor was this passage completely peaceful. For twenty-four hours we battled mountainous seas under storm-jib alone, while Uncle Joe stood on the quarterdeck as if he were rooted there, using all his skill to see us through.

Still, a week and a day after our departure from New York, light came without a sun, and we sailed through chilling mist so thick that it might be cotton wool; so thick that the foremast was not visible from the wheel, the sails dropping and the only sound the bell struck by the quartermaster as he turned the glass each half hour.

"We're close now," Uncle Joe said, and instructed the Boatswain to commence sounding. Thus we proceeded, making bare steerageway, for most of the day, the fog never lifting, but occasional bits of ice floating by on the sullen swell.

Toward the end of the forenoon watch, a voice from out of the mist cried "Ship ahoy!" and the lookout sang back, "United States Brig Triumph!"

With a plash of oars a cutter came alongside and passed us a line, and within an hour, as dark was falling, I found myself standing on a wooden pier attached to a stony shore. Through the mist nothing else could be seen save a warehouse, a heap of coal, and, incredibly, an ornate railway station. A single track ran beside it, and a locomotive attached to a passenger car and ten flatcars stood waiting.

I entered the station in search of both warmth and enlightenment. Once within, I was gratified to find a jolly pot-bellied stove nearly red from the fire that burned inside it, and a Navy petty officer sitting at a desk. I saw that his hat bore the ribbon "Nicodemus", so I strode up to him and enquired where the ship of that name might be found, that I might present my orders.

"A bit of a trip yet, sir," he replied. "First, I must ask if you are carrying any gold or silver or any items made of iron."

"Why, yes, all three," I said.

"Before you can board the train for the yards," the man said, "I must ask you to leave them here. For your silver and gold money I will exchange greenbacks. For watches and rings you will be given a receipt. As well as your sword, any pistols, and so on."

This was most unusual, but in the course of my career the Navy had asked many unusual things of me. The man was sober and serious in aspect, so I complied.

"I suppose the nails in my boots will pass muster?" I said with a smile.

"No, sir. I must ask you to leave them behind as well. We've felt boots, sir, and warmer they are than standard issue." He reached beneath his desk and pulled out a pair. "Here, sir, let me make your receipt, and I'll put all your goods in the lockroom with the rest."

I passed through the other door of the station to the platform, and onto the passenger car. The words "Department of the Navy, Thule Shipyards," were painted along its side. I could see my brass cannon being loaded onto the flatcars. At last I was to find out what manner of vessel I had been assigned to, and whence the mystery. I noted that the locomotive also was made of brass, as were the rails on which it stood.

Without my watch I could no longer tell the elapsed time, but it was not much longer ere the locomotive gave a lurch and we were underway.

I was the only officer in the railway car. Some half-dozen other men rode with me, bluejackets wearing the uniform of Nicodemus and the sullen expressions of men returning from liberty. If that railway station was the only place they had to go for entertainment, small wonder that they looked dour. I did not speak to them, nor they to each other, and truth to say I dozed. I suppose the trip lasted some hours.

Nights are long in the far northern latitudes, and it was still dark when a whistle from the locomotive and a slowing of the train announced that we were nearing our destination.

With a final chuff of steam and squeal of brakes we came to a halt. I stood, shouldering my bag, and stepped from the car. The air was thick with mist, and curiously lighted. A pervasive glare surrounded the station, a twin to the one where I had embarked. I soon saw that it came from gas lamps set on poles, one every twenty feet or so.

I walked back along the platform to inspect my cargo. The crates were covered by a rime of ice perhaps an inch and a half thick. Even as I watched, a working party appeared, ghostlike in the fog, with wagons and teams of horses, their breaths steaming into the mist. They began working to shift the crates. The utter rapidity of all the evolutions I had witnessed so far, combined with the silence in which they labored, impressed me.

The liberty party had by this time debarked the train as well to shuffle through the station. I turned to follow them. I had no desire to get lost in the cold and fog on an unfamiliar base.

Wherever they went, they went quickly, without the roistering that is almost universal at fleet landing. What I found on the other side of the station was a long wall, half again as tall as a man, broken by a gate whose lintel bore the words: THULE EXPERIMENTAL SHIPYARD, then, in smaller letters below, Authorized Personnel Only.

How likely is it, I asked myself, that unauthorized people will find themselves standing here? Indeed, it seemed to me that I stood at the edge of the world.

For all the ferocity of the sign, no guard stood at the gate for me to present my orders to. Nor was there a sign of the group of sailors I had been following. The mist had swallowed them. The light was brighter here, though, and ahead of me I thought I could make out a tapping sound, though what could be producing it I could not tell.

Since my eyes told me nothing, I decided to follow my ears. The ground was all of clean snow, but trampled flat in a welter of footprints leading in every direction.

The fog was thick, as I mentioned. I could scarcely see the poles holding the lights before bumping into one. But the tapping sound ahead of me grew louder, so I persevered. My cheeks were stinging with the cold, and my lungs hurt with the effort of breathing.

Before long I perceived that I was no longer walking on trampled snow but on ice, perfectly smooth. And then I came to the source of the sound: a party of sailors, swinging picks, chipping away at the edge of the ice. Beyond then was black water, and beyond that the smooth sides of a ship. The line of sailors went out of my sight to the right and left. Among them were some with long-handled rakes. When a piece of ice was chipped free, it was swept up and away.

I turned to my right and walked behind the sailors as they engaged in their peculiar task. It seemed as though they were endlessly laboring to keep the ice away from the sides of the vessel. I walked sixty paces before the line turned, a ninety-degrees to the left, and I followed it to pass under the ship's bows, then thirty paces after another corner. A third corner took me under her stern. I was not surprised to see the name Nicodemus painted in dull gold on the sternboard. Another turn and thirty more paces brought me to where I supposed I had started, without a clue as to how to get aboard the ship. No brow, ladder, or companionway had appeared during my circuit, nor had I seen a boat in the water.

At that moment I saw a light moving on the deck above me, so I sang out, "Hello the ship!"

"Aye aye!" came the answer.

"Lieutenant John Nevis, United States Navy, reporting as ordered for duty aboard USS Nicodemus," I shouted back.

"Oh, bugger," replied the voice. "Go to the house and report to the captain in the morning."

"Bugger yourself," I called back, cold, tired, and annoyed. "I haven't a clue where this house might be."

"Hopkins, take the lieutenant in tow and stow him away, would you?" the voice called. A moment later, a young sailor stepped up beside me, saluted, and reached for my seabag.

"You'll learn your way around here quick enough, sir," he said. "But you might as well know that they don't do things here the way they do anywhere else in the fleet."

That I could well believe, though I had no desire to show over-familiarity with the enlisted by telling him so. I believe Hopkins understood my silence, for without another word he shouldered my bag and started off. I followed, from the ice to a slope, all snow covered, and thence to the porch of a pleasant house of clapboard, its shutters closed tight against the night.

"Here you are, sir," Hopkins said, saluted, then faded away into the fog. For my part I returned the salute, turned the knob, and pushed into the vestibule. The three officers inside the house quickly introduced themselves: Lieutenant Dodge, Lieutenant Vincent, and Passed Midshipman Seaton, all line officers.

"Come," said Lieutenant Dodge after I had introduced myself. "You must be half frozen and completely tired after your journey. Let me show you to your cabin here ashore."

"Gladly," I replied. "But first, tell me, what manner of place is this?"

"The God-damnedest shipyard that I've ever seen," Dodge replied. "If the Navy needed to build in a dark, cold, and cheerless place, the Charlestown or Portsmouth yards would have served the purpose quite adequately. Lovely duty here; there's a girl behind every tree."

"I did not see any trees . . . ." I began, then quieted.

Dodge shouldered my seabag, and led the way up the stairs to a corridor on the upper floor. Seaton followed with a kerosene lamp. He opened the first door on the right, and we all followed in.

The furnishings were spare, but adequate, with two narrow beds, a washstand, two desks, two chairs, and two wardrobes. A register in the floor let heat from the fire below flow up, though not much of it; the exterior wall's inner face glittered with ice.

"This bunk is mine," Dodge said, pointing to the one closest to the window, "and that press. Stow your gear where you will." He lighted a candle from the lamp, then he and Seaton departed, pulling the door to behind them.

I could see my breath in the air of the room. Nevertheless, the bed looked entirely inviting. I stood my seabag in the wardrobe, hung my clothing over the back of a chair, blew out the candle and by feel alone crawled between the cold sheets. I said my prayers while curled in a ball, only my nose sticking out, and soon fell asleep.

What seemed an instant later, a tremendous hammering fell on the door. I started upright. The window was as black as it had been when I arrived.

Before I could say a word, an enlisted man in a peacoat and gloves entered, and placed a lighted lamp on the near desk.

"Good morning sir," he said, but did not stay for reply, instead tramping out and shutting the door behind him.

I rose and dressed, wearing the same clothes I had traveled in, and with the lamp descended to the drawing room where I had encountered the other three officers the night before.

Some hours had apparently passed. The card party had been cleared away, and the three officers I had met the night before were dressed with coats and gloves of their own. My own coat was over my arm, and I donned it now, placing the lamp on the table.

Two other officers had joined the others I already knew, bringing our company to six.

"Ah, there you are," Dodge said. He had been consulting a wheelbook, which he replaced in his inner pocket as I arrived. "Off to break our fast. Join us?"

"With pleasure," I said, for my last meal had been a hasty one while still coming to land the day before.

"Come on, then."

The six of us went out of the door, down the steps, and made our way in a gaggle across the creaking snow to a long and low structure, where smoke rose from chimneys at each end and a line of windows glowed yellow.

We entered, and, Dodge in the lead, walked between tables with benches, filled with sailors all eating their morning portions. We proceeded to a spot half-way down, where a thin partition set off a single table with chairs.

One officer was already there, a sheaf of papers under his hand, ship's plans. He looked up when we all arrived, rolling them and placing them in a case leaning against the partition.

"Welcome to the mess," Dodge said. "Time for introductions all around."

These were quickly performed. The gentlemen I had not met the evening before were two more passed midshipmen, by the names of Williams and Bash, and the officer who had met us was a lieutenant named Cromwell. I was given to know that he was the engineer of Nicodemus.

"I viewed the ship briefly on my arrival," I said to Cromwell, "and did not see sidewheels or a sternwheel on her. Will you be using an Ericsson screw, or are the wheels not yet mounted?"

"Propulsion is no concern of yours," was all he replied.

</blockquote>

[maestrowork]

Congrats, UJ!

:thumbs

[Gala]

Well done!

If I picked up a book with the story you have so far, I'd want to keep reading.

So hurry up dude, and get it out there. I need a Good Book to read at night.

Care to say what your deadline is?

Thanks for sharing, and I do pray you'll keep us posted on the wip.

:nerd

[Kate Nepveu]

Congratulations! Following the new guidelines for proper responses to deals (http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/archives/001126.html), I say to you: "Shut up!"

(Is this _just_ now, were you being modest at Worldcon, or was that part of the conversation I missed by leaving early?)

I like the voice very much, and hope life allows you to write it well and speedily.

[Yeshanu]

:thumbs

Good stuff! Now I'm really curious about this ship...

[ChunkyC]

May I echo Kate's "Shut Up!" -- Congrats, Uncle Jim!

[CaoPaux]

:hail (and Congrats!)

[JimMorcombe]

If I'd been a publisher, I'd have bought it too. It's really good stuff.

I really like the tone of the writing. It signals straight away that we are far away from our own time and place and announces we are enterng into a fantasy.

One tiny request from an Australian. Can you please not use the expression 'clapboard'. Not sure if it means anything to the Poms, but it means nothing to me.

[HConn]

UJ, I hope that by "first draft" you mean first draft you'd be willing to show as a first draft, and not the get-the-words-on-the-page draft.

Let me draw some parallels between James' first draft and the opening chapter of the book I read.

First, both of them were supported by solid research. Is there anything more reassuring, when you pick up a new book, than finding that the author(s) know the subject they're writing about? It really helps me, personally, feel that I am in good hands.

Second, both raise questions that would not be easily answered. What're the brass cannons for? Who is the woman's lover? Also, you get the sense that the answers will not be given easily; they will have to be earned.

Third, both have the sense that there is a huge blank space on the map that the protagonist is about to enter.

I'm sure there is more, but that's what jumps out at me.

[James D Macdonald]

That's "first draft" as in "may have major changes after we get to THE END."

This first chapter is roughly 1/3 the length of the first get-the-words-on-the-page draft. That draft ended in a different place, had false starts, mounds of detail that were cut with huge sweeping red-pencil marks, and otherwise was a mess.

[maestrowork]

Jim, it may be interesting and of educational value if you post both chapters (or just part of it) side by side as comparison....

[James D Macdonald]

Alas, I no longer have the first version of the chapter.

I do have some very-first-draft around here, though... which I will post if I'm ever feeling particularly masochistic.

[jeffspock]

I was trying to think what the voice and the style reminded me of. I think what it most brings to mind is the opening of the Edgar Rice Burroughs stuff, when John Carter or one of his other heroes takes off from an entirely ordinary 19th century "now" into some odd "elsewhere." Perhaps Jules Verne as well.

It also made me think of (sorry about this one) Umberto Eco's essay "How to Recognize a Porn Movie." I quote:

"...for the transgression to work, it must be played out against a background of normality." In other words, in order to draw the viewer into the ludicrously improbable parts of the movie, the rest of it must be told at a level of detail so mundane that it is accepted without question.

That is what I get from the details of shipboard life and the journey the protag takes. It is the presentation of everyday activities--the excellent research to which HConn alludes--to the point that the reader (viewer?) accepts what comes next. We are assuming, of course, that what comes next is far from mundane everyday life.

If you ever get tired of writing novels, you could always...

Jeff

[JuliePgh]

Jim,

Congratulations! To expand on HConn's question regarding your 'first draft', how many times did you revise to get from your first get-the-words-on-the-page draft to this version? I'm constantly revising, revising, revising... wondering just when I'll reach that point when I can say "I'm done!"

[Gala]

Writing is revising.

You may never get to the point "I'm done." You may just accept that you're done revising a particular work, and it is ready for publication in it's current state.

Sometimes even after a book is published one wonders if they could have made parts of it better or different.

[HConn]

On another point, James, did you say elsewhere that an average first novel might sell 5K copies?

[Duesylady]

Ah, I think there may be some reason Uncle Jim is trying to avoid the magnetic forces...;)

[maestrowork]

Grisham sold 5000 copies of A Time To Kill the first time around.

[James D Macdonald]

Yep, 5,000 to 10,000 copies is a reasonable number to expect for a first novel.

[CaoPaux]

So, given 20,000 (?) bookstores, one can hope that at least one customer for every four stores will buy a copy of Book X. Weight that toward those stores within direct reach of the publisher's marketing campaign and the local area(s) of author and friends/family, and....um, er, did I mention I got a "D" in statistics. :o

[maestrowork]

With a first novel, you'd be lucky to get into 50 bookstores. :lol

[novelator]

With a first novel, you'd be lucky to get into 50 bookstores.

Depends on your marketing plan, both pre and post publication.

You will have to market, no matter who publishes the manuscript.

Mari

[vrauls]

-- Whenever I read that, Rush starts playing in my head.

This is one of the most common pieces of advice for writing fiction. Well, you know what? I don't get it. Or maybe I sort of get it. In any case, I'd really appreciate some advice.

First of all, I see the difference between:

TELL

Sam threw the can of spam angrily.

SHOW

Marsha winced as the can of spam narrowly miss the glass fish tank and bounced onto the green shag carpet.

“I have had enough of processed pork products.” Sam said, a vein in his forehead pulsing rapidly.

And I definitely see the difference between:

TELL

“My lawyer will see your pork-peddling rump roast in jail!” Sam yelled angrily.

SHOW

“My lawyer will see your pork-peddling rump roast in jail!” Sam shook his fist at the terrified checkout girl. “In jail, I tell you!”

Where I seem to get derailed is not in action or dialog, but in description. For example:

The building where Sam’s anger management classes were being held was a dingy grey government cracker box. The neighborhood was as sad as the faded placards in the front window. Wilted stalks of unidentifiable plant life drooped listlessly. To Sam, the whole building resembled a giant can of… well, he suspected this was not going to go well.

Of the top of my head, that sounds a lot like TELL, TELL, TELL. But I’m not sure how else to describe the setting. And this happens whenever I try to describe something or someone.

[James D Macdonald]

With a first novel, you'd be lucky to get into 50 bookstores.

Sez who? Your publisher has a full-time marketing department trying to get all of their books into every bookstore in the country.

(If your publisher doesn't have that marketing department, why are they your publisher?)

First novels can get wider distribution than second or third novels. Hard to believe, but true.

[sc211]

Vrauls,

Actually that's some fine "showing." It would be "telling" if you said, "He looked at the building and didn't like it."

I used to get hung up on this as well, feeling that I couldn't make that grave error of telling. So everything had to be shown. It was like typing with one hand behind my back - I was missing half my tools.

You can't show everything - you'll wear both yourself and your reader out. Just go with what you got and use the telling mostly in descriptions or scene switches.

[James D Macdonald]

Off the top of my head, that sounds a lot like TELL, TELL, TELL.

Well, yeah. That's what description is. Balancing act, that's what this art is.

Pick the significant details, give them, let the readers fill in the rest according to their experiences and needs.

[Yeshanu]

First novels can get wider distribution than second or third novels. Hard to believe, but true.

This has been mentioned as a problem elsewhere on this thread, and in others too, I think. So what's the solution? How do you avoid that second and third book letdown because the first one only had average sales?

[reph]

The building where Sam’s anger management classes were being held was a dingy grey government cracker box. The neighborhood was as sad as the faded placards in the front window. Wilted stalks of unidentifiable plant life drooped listlessly. To Sam, the whole building resembled a giant can of… well, he suspected this was not going to go well.

Vrauls, never mind the novel. You should write humor instead.

[James D Macdonald]

How do you avoid that second and third book letdown because the first one only had average sales?

It isn't that the first book only had average sales. The first book's sales are what they are; no one holds 'em against the author.

The problem comes if the second book's sales aren't better than the first book's. A rising curve is good, a falling one is bad. You see the logic.

What do you do then?

Write your third book under a pseudonym, accept a first-author advance, and try again.

The editors aren't fooled; they know who you are. The bookstores aren't fooled. The readers aren't fooled. But that's the way it works.

Remember the theater owner in <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00001U0E1/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/" target="_new">Shakespeare in Love</a> saying "It's a mystery"?

It's a mystery.

(Note: If the first book Really Tanks, not just average sales but abysmal sales, the time to change your name and enter the DAW Books Witness Protection Program comes a bit sooner.)

(Note Two: Some people run two or three pseudonyms simultaneously, so that if one of their names isn't having a great career they can switch their efforts to a name that's doing better, rather than having to start as a "new author" again.)

(Note Three: If one of your names does Very Well Indeed, your earlier books under your other names can be reprinted as "By Joe Buffalo, Writing As Fred Finque." In case you ever wondered what that sort of byline was all about.)

I wonder if I'm going to have to explain the Death Spiral soon?

[maestrowork]

So...

Do you use your real name (or some variation of it) the first time around and hope that your book sells well (for a first novel, anyway)? And you can becoming a household name later (JK Rowling, for example).

Or do you use a psuedonym just in case it tanks (I believe Stephen King first wrote under Bachman. True? False?)? Then you can try again...

[Clearrr]

No, Stephen King wrote as Bachman after he was well established. As I understand it, it was a personal test to see if he was being published because he was Stephen King or a good writer.

[Yeshanu]

Wow! Clearr, you get the prize for post number 2200 on this thread! :grin

[Lori Basiewicz]

I would think it also depends on what your legal name is and whether you wanted to write under it and all sorts of other factors. Basiewicz. I mean, come on guys, I don't want to spend the rest of my life trying to explain how to pronounce it and for spelling it. As for signing it, it's alreadly lost 3 to 6 letters, depending on my mood and how many times in a row I have to sign it. :ack

I keep telling people I'm looking for a Smith or a Jones to marry, if that ever happens, maybe I would reconsider. :grin

[Risseybug]

I've got one for ya... my mother's maiden name was .....

GONSERKEVIS.

And that's the Americanized version from the Polish, meaning "goose herder."

[vrauls]

Well, yeah. That's what description is. Balancing act, that's what this art is.

Pick the significant details, give them, let the readers fill in the rest according to their experiences and needs.

Thank you! So as long as I keep the descriptions themselves lightweight, I can still tell my reader what things look like? This is excellent advice.

I think I got confused when I read never to use the word was: “it was a dark and spammy night.”

[vrauls]

Vrauls, never mind the novel. You should write humor instead.

Thank you! And thanks to everyone for the advice. I'm still not sure my fiction doesn't suck, but I do feel better.

Venecia Rauls

[Joanclr]

Stephen King wrote as Bachman after he was well established. As I understand it, it was a personal test to see if he was being published because he was Stephen King or a good writer.

How did the test turn out?

[macalicious731]

Jim, I was on Amazon.com using the "search inside the book" feature on your _Apocalypse Door._ After reading the back cover, I have to say.... I do resent this statement: "Governments and businesses squabble, people go out for coffee, folks meet and fall in love, and the Red Sox will win the World Series when Hell freezes over." :lol

Rest assured, I doubt that was your phrasing, but nonetheless... we are going to reverse the curse! ;)

[Clearrr]

King's test turned out fine. He found a publisher using the name Bachman.

A reporter tracked down the pseudonym and threatened exposure so King wrote a book about that!

[Clearrr]

What is my prize? :grin

Why don't you want anything to do with pigeons?

[Yeshanu]

:smack

This pigeon thing is gonna haunt me forever. Thanks, Jenna.

Ruth's Pigeon Problem (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm17.showMessageRange?topicID=123.t opic&start=21&stop=32)

On last names: People ask me why I use my ex's last name, even though we've been separated for nine years.

Ueberer.

That enough for ya?

Lori, finding a "Smith" or a "Jones" to marry ain't that bad an idea, but really, for writing, just choose a name that seems to resonate and use that. It's a lot easier, unless, of course, you actually happen to fall in love with Mr. Smith.

[maestrowork]

Lori, or you can marry a "Wong."

:lol :lol :lol

[HConn]

Guys, just go down to the courthouse and change your name.

Or establish a bank account with a "doing business as Lori Normal" provision. No more worries.

[pencilone]

On the other hand, if it's a simple, short and bland name like Dan Brown, it's easier for people to remember.:)

[maestrowork]

But there are probably a hundred million people named Dan Brown (or my name, for that matter -- I have a bland, generic name).

[HConn]

that's why George Martin publishes as George R. R. Martin. Your name is your brand. It helps to be memorable.

[Yeshanu]

It helps to be memorable, but it also has to be rememberable.

[reph]

"Or establish a bank account with a "doing business as Lori Normal" provision. No more worries."

No more worries, huh? Where I live, registering a fictitious business name will call the attention of the city government's revenue division to your existence as someone who should be paying business tax.

[maestrowork]

Why bother with changing your legal name when you can publish under ANY pseudonym? There's no reason why anyone should know what your real name is...

[ElonnaT]

This leads to a question I would like to ask...if you wish to use a pseudonym, do you submit using your pseudonym? Or if you are published, you just tell your editor/publisher you want to use a pseudonym?

[maestrowork]

On your title page:


TITLE OF STORY/NOVEL
by
Psuedonym


Some people also prefer "John Smith writing as Opie Que."

[aka eraser]

This leads to a question I would like to ask...if you wish to use a pseudonym, do you submit using your pseudonym? Or if you are published, you just tell your editor/publisher you want to use a pseudonym?

You'd submit using your real name but on the title page you'd write "Writing as: Nom De Plume." You could also mention that in your cover letter I reckon.

I think you'd still want your real name to appear on subsequent pages and in correspondence because you want the cheque made out properly.

If you're already published, I'm sure it's just a question of telling/convincing your agent/publisher which name you want to use.

[SRHowen]

Use your real name on the title page in the info area at the top, then under the title you put the pen name you want. In the slug line you use your last name, not the pen name.

If you are using a name to hide a bad book--no idea what you should do.

Shawn

[Jules Hall]

No more worries, huh? Where I live, registering a fictitious business name will call the attention of the city government's revenue division to your existence as someone who should be paying business tax.

I'm not sure about where you live, but where I live I know that this would require you to pay no more taxes than you would (legally speaking) have to pay as an author of published fiction anyway.

Yes, if you were intending to dodge those taxes, this might call attention to you.

Also, do banks routinely notify your local government of new business accounts opened? That seems a little odd to me.

[Yeshanu]

Jules,

I think reph meant that her city levies extra taxes against small businesses. I don't think she was talking about federal income tax at all.

And yes, I find it odd that the bank would be in cahoots with the city... I know reph's in the States, so I don't know the laws, but in Canada there's a new privacy law that would prevent them from passing on this info without your express permission to do so.

[Lori Basiewicz]

I'm not certain about all the States, but in my state, if you register a fictitious business name, you must register that name with the local government -- county-level in my case -- run a classified in the newspaper a set number of times. The banks don't have to be involved for the government to find out what you're up to.

Jules, Reph is currently battling her city government because they are attempting to apply laws aimed at businesses to freelancers.

[maestrowork]

I think it's because most people use "do business as" for small businesses such as "John Smith doing business as Greenthumb Landscaping." That's the way to get paid without going directly to your personal account or without incorporating. And for small businesses there are all sort of tax issues.

Most freelancers don't have to deal with that because they're on 1099 and they use their real names to do business. But in Reph's case, it's different and that's what she's battling right now.

[Jules Hall]

So, you get charged a flat rate for operating a business? Here in the UK, we get charged if we have premises specifically for the business. Even just a room in your house that is only used for business purposes counts, but it doesn't matter whether you're trading under your own name or not.

OTOH, we have our own tax problems. I wonder if IR35 is applied to freelance writers? For those who don't know about it, this is a regulation that states that if for any substantial period of time (I don't know the threshold) a self-employed person produces work solely for a single client, they are considered as employed by that client, so don't get to deduct their expenses. Meanwhile, they aren't permitted the rights that employees usually get, either. :(

[reph]

Jules, my city wants to collect business tax from every resident who has self-employment income of any kind. I'm in a group that's protesting and hoping to reform this new application of the city's business-tax ordinance. Some of our members have actual jobs but report their earnings to the federal and state taxing agencies as receipts from self-employment because the employer requires it. This city has no personal income tax; it doesn't tax the earnings of employees, only of self-employed individuals, whom it classes with large corporations and retail stores.

Maestro, I get 1099s and I use my real name.

[James D Macdonald]

At least in my state you can use any name you want, so long as you don't have fraudulent intent.

Now ... usually, you put the pseudonym you want to use in the byline, with your real name in the address block.

If you're trying to keep the whole thing secret from the publishers, have your agent submit the story under your pseudonym (that's how "Christopher Pike," the YA Horror novelist, did it).

Don't imagine that when you submit your novel, that's the last you'll be talking to the editor until you see it in the bookstores. You'll have lots of opportunities to discuss what name you want on the cover.

<HR>

Now about the Death Spiral. This comes from some chain bookstores' practice of Ordering To Net.

Say we have a happy young author named Anthony Aardvark. He's written a swell little mystery called Up Your Nose With a Rubber Hose, it's being published, and all's well.

The big chains see a new author. They don't know how he'll do, maybe he'll be the next John Grisham? Who knows? They order 10,000 copies for their various stores. (The books are returnable, so it doesn't hurt them to do it.)

Publishers often set printings based on pre-orders. 10,000 copies get printed, plus a few extra to take care of the indies and such.

Up Your Nose With a Rubber Hose comes out, and gets an 80% sell-through (which is pretty good).

(Sell-through is the number sold divided by the number shelved, times 100%.)

That is to say, 10,000 were shelved, 8,000 were sold. (The rest were returned for credit.)

Now Mr. Aardvark submits his next novel, In Your Eye With A Lemon Pie. The last one sold pretty well, he's gotten a slightly higher advance, all's seemingly well ... but the chains are Ordering To Net. 8,000 sold last time, so they only order 8,000 this time. That's where the printing is set.

Again, Mr. Aardvark gets an 80% sell-through; 6,400 are sold.

He submits his third book, Down Your Throat With A Motorboat. The chains are still Ordering To Net, so they only order 6,400. (Notice that there aren't enough copies to go on the shelves in all the bookstores where Rubber Hose was shelved -- readers there who liked the first book and would buy the next book by that author don't find it, don't buy it, and pick up some other book instead.) The publisher only prints, perhaps, 7,000. Out they go, there's an 80% sell-through (still a good sell-through number), and 5,120 are sold.

Mr. Aardvark submits In Your Hand With A Rubber Band. The chains will only preorder 5,120 -- it isn't worth the publisher's time to print so few -- so Mr. Aardvark is released from his contract. The good news is that he keeps the advance. The bad news is that any time his name pops up, the computers at the chain store say "order 5,120 copies."

What can he do? He changes his name to Basil Basingstoke, and submits In Your Hand With A Rubber Band under a new title with his new name. He only gets a first-novel sized advance, but! The chains, seeing a New Author, figure that this guy could be the Next John Grisham, and preorder 10,000 copies of The Rubber Band Affair by Basil Basingstoke.

(Perhaps some of Mr. Aardvark's fans will complain on Usenet that Basil Basingstoke is just a cheap Aardvark ripoff. Perhaps not.)

So that's one of the Horrid Things that can happen to authors.

[emeraldcite]

So that's one of the Horrid Things that can happen to authors

just one, eh...

:smack

[James D Macdonald]

Yeah, Emerald, just one. You want to hear some of the bad stuff?

Meanwhile....

Just out in paperback reprint is <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765340046/ref=nosim/0765340046/madhousemanor/" target="_new">this anthology</a> with a story by handsome and witty <blink>me</blink> in it.

Buy one! Better still, buy a dozen! They make excellent gifts! Everyone in your whole family wants a copy!

[reph]

Everyone in your whole family wants a copy!

Sounds like a project that would have interested PA.

[James D Macdonald]

Nah. If I'd said "Everyone in my family wants a copy," then it would be a candidate for PA.

[reph]

Oops, I forgot PA's exact version of family values – although I suspect that they wouldn't be too fussy about whose family provided the "value."

Technical note: On ezboard, square brackets will get you a font change. Angle brackets will get you angle brackets.

[James D Macdonald]

Technical note: On ezboard, square brackets will get you a font change. Angle brackets will get you angle brackets.

Only if, for some reason, the radio button in the reply window got changed from HTML to ezCodes.

[reph]

The button in my reply window is always set on ezCodes. I assumed that was the default condition.

[Yeshanu]

reph,

Your city council is off its rockers, IMHO. Here's hoping your campaign is a success. :hug

this is a regulation that states that if for any substantial period of time (I don't know the threshold) a self-employed person produces work solely for a single client, they are considered as employed by that client, so don't get to deduct their expenses.

In Canada, that person would still be considered a self-employed contractor unless a number of other conditions were met. However, having only one client isn't a great way to run a writing business... (assuming freelance here). How do novelists in the UK (like J K Rowling) get around that if they only produce books for one publisher?

And Uncle Jim, how does one get past the death spiral problem, other than by changing names or having a blockbuster come out that puts his/her name on the map of Jane and Joe Averagereader? (You must know, 'cause I assume you've done it... :b )

[HConn]

Hopefully, your second book will drive up deman for your first. The front list drives the back list.

Is that right?

It's something I read about on Michelle Sagara's lj (http://www.livejournal.com/users/msagara/), although I'll be derned if I can find the entry now.

BTW, Ms. Sagara is a novelist and a bookseller. She has a lot of useful info in her blog.

[James D Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, how does one get past the death spiral problem....

First, write and sell a book a year. Every time a new book comes out, the publisher will resolicit the other books you have with them. They'll order your new book to net, and perhaps a few more of the older ones. (Little known but true: two books side by side by the same author make both of them more likely to sell than a singleton.) All of those sales count for the "net" for the book after that.

Second, with any kind of luck, your book will sell more than were printed and ordered. The book goes back to press, to fill the orders from the bookstores. (If a book sells out, they'll order more.) It doesn't have to happen in every store, just enough stores. How many stores is "enough" is a secret that the big chains don't share.

Third, bring out other books from different publishers. Say poor Anthony up there had two different novels come out from two different publishers. The chains order both to net, but it's separately: 8,000 of one, 8,000 of another. Those have an 80% sell-through, it's 12,800 sold total, but they're both listed under Anthony's name -- so whatever novel he sells next will get 12,800 preorders, with print runs set accordingly.

All books that go to your name count. Having multiple books in print simultaneously is your goal.

Does this tell against the slow writers? Yeah.

The other way is to break out, to have a runaway best seller. Lightning strikes. That's in the hands of the readers, the darlings.

[Yeshanu]

Thanks, Uncle Jim. That helps a great deal.

I'm not surprised that two books on the shelf by the same author have a better chance of selling -- the shelf space taken up is twice as wide, so the reader's more likely to notice the book is even there. Besides that, I know I tend to prefer prolific authors (or authors who at least seem that way because there's more than one of their books on the shelf) because if I like the author, I don't want to end up high and dry waiting for a new work. :)

[James D Macdonald]

Here's the anthology with the story whose <A HREF="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=1281&stop=1300" target="_new"> first scene</a> I ran (and analysed) a while back in this thread.


It's out now.

<A HREF="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/murder_magic.htm" "target="_new">Murder by Magic</a>

[wwwatcher]

"How do novelists in the UK (like J K Rowling) get around that if they only produce books for one publisher?"

That's probably why Britain's implementing it - she's making enough that even the government take's notice. She's becoming an institution unto herself. (Move to Ireland J.K. and hurry!!!!)

[wwwatcher]

"Lori, or you can marry a "Wong."

But Maestro... women aren't looking for Mr. Wong - they're looking for Mr. White!!!!!!!!

(I couldn't resist.)

[James D Macdonald]

"How do novelists in the UK (like J K Rowling) get around that if they only produce books for one publisher?"

Two things: She's a break-out best seller, and she's writing a book a year.


[Update:] Oops! I thought you were asking how J. K. avoided the Death Spiral. Sorry!

[maestrowork]

Except for "Phoenix" -- it took her, I believe, 2 years (or was it 3) ?

[HConn]

James, how should a writer approach a romantic subplot, especially when romantic subplots don't seem to work.

My next project, which is looming, is going to need one. I have never truly made one work before.

How do you approach a romance between your characters?

[Jules Hall]

On further investigation, it seems it is only likely to be applied where an hourly rate is agreed in advance of the contractor doing the work. According to the Inland Revenue, any "financial risk" taken by the contractor (they include the example of providing work at a fixed cost when it is not known how long it will take) is a strong indicator that they aren't employed. I think this probably gets most writers out of it.

[reph]

Jules, U.S. laws are different. As this thread is supposed to be about novel writing, I won't give details except to say that the National Writers Union has finally shown interest in helping with our local tax problem.

[James D Macdonald]

How do you approach a romance between your characters?

The same way I approach any interpersonal actions with my characters. Interesting characters doing interesting things.

What exactly is the aim of this romantic subplot? Does it support the main plot? Why do you feel you need it?

The general rule still holds: If it isn't working, take it out.

[macalicious731]

I have a romantic subplot in my WIP. It's something that was planned, but definately not to the degree it's turned into. The characters really care for each other, but they're never going to end up together. There are all sorts of little things I swore I wouldn't write about, but the more time I spend the more these things show up. I am, however, very careful about using the word "love" simply because the characters never use it themselves.

I know it wouldn't work for me (as the writer) if they were madly in love, doing relationship things, etc.. because, well, when it comes down to it I've got no experiene... :ack

[evanaharris]

especially when romantic subplots don't seem to work.'

Why do you think that romantic subplots don't seem to work? Honestly?

They're difficult to do in a non-cliched fashion, but I suppose that's true for action scenes, or a half dozen other things.

I've got a romantic subplot in the script I'm currently working on...and I think it's turning out okay. I've done them before, with varying degrees of success, but everything I've done up till now has been done with varying degrees of success.

[macalicious731]

Evana,

I think HConn was referring to her own subplot... but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Here's one of my biggest romantic plot pet peeves, however: When the story is created just so the book/film can have that "Hollywood effect." You know, "plenty of action for the men, and romance for the women!" Then, the whole experience takes a hard hit because the subplot was totally unnecessary. :: cough :: Troy :: cough ::

Give me a break! :smack