Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[Yeshanu]

I thought folks might appreciate this link, which gives the top "no-no's" for On-Spec magazine:

www.onspec.ca/guide_topten.php (http://www.onspec.ca/guide_topten.php)

[SRHowen]

Simultaneous submissions ok?



Yes, if and only if the publisher says "simultaneous submissions are okay" in their guidelines.

Note: this does not apply to query letters. It applies to the submission of the entire ms.

Shawn

[James D Macdonald]

To quote from one of our own works (isn't a huge ego wonderful?):

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
"Son of a wizard-glamored troll!" Kay yelled, and slammed his fist into the stone wall. "The hairy little wart isn't ever going to forget that I used to beat him up regularly when I thought he was just my baby brother!"
<hr></blockquote>

That's from "Holly and Ivy" in <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/0399225404/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Camelot</A>, edited by Jane Yolen.

Now special cases here. First, it's an Arthurian fantasy, for young adults. So we can't use actual nasty profanity. Yet we are trying to show Sir Kay turning the air blue around him with his horrid oaths and curses. (Sir Kay traditionally has a foul temper.)

So ... that bit. Throws in a bunch of backstory (Arthur's father, Uther Pendragon, was wizard-glamored at the time of Arthur's begetting) and a quick reference to T. H. White's <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0441627404/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Once and Future King</A> ("wart").

On the down side: Two exclamation points, and a 'said' word other than said.

Overall, I think it's a pretty fair example of YA/fantasy profanity. It gives a feeling, both for character and time/place, without keeping librarians from ordering copies.

(This dialog occurs on the second page of the story... it continues:)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>

[James D Macdonald]

In the course of my career, I've been published by:

Archway
Avon
Ballantine/Ivy
Berkley
Berkley/Ace
Byron Preiss Multimedia/Pocket
DAW
Forge
Harcourt Brace
Harper Junior Books
Harper
HarperCollins
Masquerade
Philomel
Roc
Rosen
Scholastic
Swordsmith
Tor
Troll
Valiant
Warner/Aspect
Warner
Wildside

In no case did I have to go to a bookstore manager to ask for my works to be shelved. In every case I found (when ego scanning) one or more bookstores with copies of each work already on the shelves.

Those who tell you that only 1% of authors see their works stocked in bookstores are fibbing; among tradtionally published authors, darn near 100% see their works shelved in bookstores without any intervention on the author's part.

How long it will be shelved, and where it will be shelved I can't tell you. But shelved it will be, since publishers only make money if they sell books to the general public.

As for the claim that publishers don't market the books of first-time authors:

Balderdash.

Ask yourself if this is likely: The publisher acquires the book for some amount of money. They then spend some amount of money on editing, a cover, printing, and warehousing.

Then ... the publisher makes no attempt to recoup that investment? Come on! They're throwing away that money for the fun of it? They'd be out of business in no time if they did that. They have to be doing everything they can to make a profit on those books. The only way they can make a profit is by selling them. The only way they can sell them is to get them into bookstores. So there you go.

[jeffspock]

I just did this, for God knows what reason, for a workshop. Write a story (not too long, say 2k words max), that has:

- Only dialogue. No dialog tags, no exposition, no narrative, no description.

Ouch. You have to use dialog to convey not only the characters and what they are doing, but also action (fiendishly difficult), the passage of time (very difficult), the backstory (somewhat difficult), and setting (difficult).

- No infodumps, no "As you know Bob" permitted.

- Characterization--can only be driven by language, by responses, and by 'verbal tics.'
- Plot--You can't 'tell,' you can only 'show.'
- Setting--You can only refer to things (weather, surroundings, time, place) in ways that seem logical for the characters.

Okay, you ask, "Why the hell should I do that?"

What it did for me was to force me away from doing too much "stage direction" of my characters, which is a perennial problem in my writing.

Go ahead and try, it's actually a lot of fun.

[SRHowen]

I did that once. And it was fun. It makes you think in new ways. The very next story I wrote after the exercise was by far much better than the one before.

Side note: next month WCP will be having an interview with James. I had a blast doing it, and learned a lot about our dear uncle Jim. I can tell you this he is a lot nicer and more open than Uncle Orsen. (Orsen Scott Card)

Shawn

[James D Macdonald]

"A lot nicer"? You didn't see me making faces, sticking out my tongue, and wiggling my fingers in my ears.

<hr>

Oh, yeah, and ego thing.... we've got a story that was written in pure dialog. Around 800 words. It's published in Vampires (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/vamphead.htm) (Jane Yolen, ed.), and has been continously in print for the past eleven years. (Royalty checks twice a year, o yassss!)

Available used starting at $0.99. Buy one, better still, buy a dozen. They make excellent Labor Day gifts.

This, my friends, is why I prefer selling short stories to anthologies rather than to magazines. Magazines, one-time payment, it's off the stands in a month. In an anthology, same payment, but the chance it'll stay in print and earning money forever.

[Joanclr]

That works for me, but how does one get into an anthology? It's my guess that tends to be more by invitation, or having the published experience behind your belt - am I right?

On a similar subject - do anthologies publish stories that have been already printed in a magazine? Or do they usually need to be on their first run to be considered?

[James D Macdonald]

For anthologies -- first, you have to learn which anthologies are open. This may be a matter of networking, or it may be a matter of reading the trade magazines. When editors have open anthologies they put out the word in places where it's likely they'll find writers.

Cruise your bookstores. Editors who have put out anthologies in the past may be working on others. Write to them.

Some anthologies are open to previously published works. Query. (We've got one story that's been in three anthologies so far.)

The way this sort of thing usually works:

The editor proposes an anthology to a publisher, saying "I'll get Stephen King, John Grisham, Tom Clancy, and a few other people...." If the publisher buys it, they give the editor an advance to put together the anthology.

The editor sends invitations to Stephen King, John Grisham, and Tom Clancy, who all send back polite notes saying "So sorry, much too busy...." At this point the anthology opens up, and you have a chance to be one of the "few other people."

The editor pays you per word out of that advance he got.

Your story is edited by the editor, and, after the entire anthology is turned in, by the publisher.

Now it's published. Nothing much happens until the book earns out its advance. Then ... after the advance is earned out, the anthology editor keeps half of each royalty check and divides the rest pro rata among the authors. If the anthology is selling well, this can be ... an astounding amount of money. We had one 10,000 word story that sold for $0.05/word. That was $500. Okay, fine. The very first royalty period brought another $800. Things kept up like that for quite a while. That anthology eventually went out of print ... and we sold the same story to another anthology for a whole 'nother advance. I think that story's well over a dollar a word by now.

So, let's look for some open anthologies for you...

Go to Google and search on the following keywords: Submission Guidelines Anthology (http://www.google.com/search?q=submission+guidelines+anthology)

Use the same standards you would for any publisher: Is this advance against royalties? If not, you aren't interested. Is this a publisher you've heard of, that has bookstore sales? If not, you're not interested.

Subscribe to various writers' newsletters. Open anthologies are announced there from time to time. Remember, sometimes the opening is very brief -- a month. I know of anthologies that have filled in a week. It's highly competitive. But so's all of commercial writing. Don't let that slow you down.

Do not ever pay to get published.

[HConn]

Googling for open anthologies!

Why didn't I think of that!

[SRHowen]

"A lot nicer"? You didn't see me making faces, sticking out my tongue, and wiggling my fingers in my ears.

Yeah, but you didn't see the interview I did with Card--he didn't answer the questions asked--I don't know what questions he answered --we did an email interview--but they were not the ones I wrote and he got nasty when asked certain things. I am not even sure WCP will use his interview, it makes him look like either fool or a jerk.

Shawn

[JoannaC]

Hi James and everyone

I have a question for you about backstory. I always find it tricky to work it in, and I would like some advice on a particular situation.

My main character is very distrustful of the police due to an incident that occured when she was a child. it is important that the reader know the incident, but they do not need to know it on page one. Anyway, during the story, there will be a crime, she will be a suspect and one of the police investigators will become her love interest.

So my question is when do I introduce the incident? There is a graceful place to do so at about chapter 6, when we first meet one of the other people who was involved in the incident (this person is my character's mentor figure) but at the same time I feel like I should save it for when she inevitably (but much later) tells the love interest, because I think it will be important characterization-wize for the reader to see how he reacts to the tale.

But that is much later in the story and I do not want the reader spending the whole time until then wondering what the heck her problem is :-)

[James D Macdonald]

Oh, dear, JoannaC. How can I answer your question without reading your novel?

General principles:

You're always in the middle of the story, yet you never have to explain everything that's gone before.

People refer to things. Have them refer to important information naturally. Avoid the dread "As You Know Bob" dialog.

The source of information and the source of interest should be the same.


<HR>

Mr. Earbrass had much the same problem in <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0151004358/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">The Unstrung Harp</a>. How he solved it is never mentioned. This is a common problem. I've had it too.

Possible solutions:

Come right out and tell the readers, in your role as narrator. Maude, a pleasant, blue-eyed girl, had thumbs that constantly pained her since her accident at age twenty-five.

Bring in a stranger, who can ask another, more knowledgeable character. [i]"What's the matter with her?" Fred asked.

[maestrowork]

Yup. Find a way to work your backstory into your scenes. Granted, sometimes it's just easier and better to do it in expository narratives. But it's always better if you can work it into your scenes, either through dialogue (but be careful not to info dump), or a reference. Jim gave some really good examples.

[James D Macdonald]

Fact is, if your characters are well-realized remarkably little backstory needs to be given explicitly.

[JoannaC]

Thanks James :-) That was pretty much what I was thinking, but I have to admit, I find backstory very tricky. In my previous novel, which I wrote for Nanowrimo last year as practice knowing it would likely not be publishable, several of my readers commented that I was too cagey, that they felt I was crossing the line between "being suspenseful" and "hiding things from the reader." In fact, one of my readers broke down all the conversations in the novel by topic, and three of them were "character X and character Y discuss the fact that they need to have a conversation about topic Z, but they do not actually do so." I thought I was saving the dramatic suspense for later, and really my reader was shouting "oh my g-d just TALK already, you idiots!" at my characters :-)

I think that this time around the reader will know she has a history based on her actions. The mentor character runs a group she is part of, so a brief mention of how she has known Althea since she become involved in the group several years ago after a childhood incident brought them together should be fine. I can then elaborate on the incident later.

[reph]

Joanna, besides the guidelines already given, the way you introduce the backstory will depend on who the POV character is (the traumatized woman's or somebody else's) and how intimate/subjective the POV is.

[JuliePgh]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Bring in a stranger, who can ask another, more knowledgeable character. "What's the matter with her?" Fred asked.

"Nerves," Bill replied. "Ever since her skiing accident in '98. Can't go past a goalpost without yodeling. Dreadful thing."
<hr></blockquote>

What exactly constitutes Information Dumping in a scene where, for example, characters A and B come across a police report about character C. The details are intricate and can't be summed up easily without doing a disservice to explain character C's behavior. Not everything is as easy as referring to a ski accident and letting the reader's imagination go from there.

[HConn]

It's only info dumping if the reader isn't interested in the exposition. If the reader is primed to find out why character c is acting strangely, the exposition will be fun to read.

[SRHowen]

the two characters are talking about something both of them know--the Well, as you know, she had a bad accident in '72 and ever since then she has blah blah--

When both characters already know the facts, this becomes a bad device used by the author to inform the readers.

Shawn

[SimonSays]

SR - one of the ways around that is if the exposition comes out in the framework of conflict.

For example:

"We can't afford to go if it's just the two of us. Let's ask Carrie"

"She won't come, you know how she feels about long car trips.

"But her accident was 30 years ago, she should be over it by now"

[SRHowen]

Same thing, different wording. The characters are still talking to each other only to inform the reader, not each other--they already know the info.

Better to keep it out of the dialog completely.

If you want to (need the reader to know about the accident or whatever) better to frame it in character thoughts.

"If we split this trip three ways we can afford to go."

John thought of asking Carrie. No, Carrie wouldn't go, ever since her accident she refused to get in a car.

It's logical that John might in a momentary lapse consider that Carrie might go, then rethink it. But it is not logical that two character's would discus common knowledge between them. And it has the advantage of showing us something about the relationship between Carrie and John--

Better yet:

"Carrie, she'll go," Sam said.

"No, she won't," John countered.

Sam grunted. "She will, she told me she wanted to go see the flying saucer."

"Fine, we'll ask her--but I'm telling you she won't go."

John and Sam took the short trip to Carrie's and knocked on her door. When Carrie answered she hung onto the door frame and peered out at them. She wasn't wearing her prosthesis today. What the car accident had left of her right leg stayed hidden under her skirt.

Info in this case is given by inference. The reader assumes that she won't go because of the accident--and it can be reinforced through dialog that makes use of back story, but doesn't spoon feed it to the reader.

Shawn

[SimonSays]

I still say that if you are going to use dialogue as a way to get out exposition, then it is best do it through conflict. Obviously there are other ways to get out expostion. But if dialogue is the route you take - USE CONFLICT.

[JoannaC]

Okay, this might be a dumb question, but...

Why is exposition necessarily a bad thing? Sometimes the reader does need to know about stuff that you either can't or should not show them. For example, things that happened before the story. Or things that would be boring. Or time lapses where you suddenly jump the the next morning without showing how your character spent the night.

"Show don't tell" is a useful guideline to keep in mind, but you can't have a novel that is ALL show and NO tell, anymore than you can have one that is all dialogue and no things that are not dialogue.

On a somewhat related note, has anybody read "Bitten" by Kelley Armstrong? She has some beautiful language and interesting characters, but she also has long paragraphs of exposition about things that happened before the story started. She deploys these in what i think are the right spots, but I kept having flashbacks to the reader response to my own work from nano last year, where several people commented that the backstory sounded more interesting to them than the current story. Her main character is an orphan who never had a family and longs for one, yet all that is taken away from her prior to the beginning of the story when her werewolf lover impulsively bites her and turns her into a werewolf. We do get to see some of this in flashback later on, but honestly, I kept checking the author bio page to make sure this really was the first book, and that we never got to see this other stuff. As for the current book---most of it seems to be "Elena verbally spars with her boyfriend, then they go running in the forest, then they turn into werewolves and have sex, then they turn back into people and finisht he sex, then something happens, then they verbally spar..." etc. It is all very pretty and nicely done and such, but doesn't the backstory sound a little more fun?

[HConn]

Why is exposition necessarily a bad thing?

It's only a bad if it's not handled correctly.

For instance, you shouldn't include the boring parts. And your backstory shouldn't be more interesting than the actual story.

There has already been several pieces of good advice from others here. Just remember that exposition should not fill in back story; it should be advancing the story you're telling.

[Jules Hall]

Exposition is a bad thing if the reader doesn't want to read it. So, it definitely depends on your audience. Hard SF readers can take (and often expect) more exposition than other genres -- an example is a book I recently read, Wheelers by Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen. This book is written by two prominent scientists, one of whom (Jack Cohen) is particularly well known for his work on potential forms of alien life. I would have been disappointed if it _hadn't_ had large chunks of exposition about the aliens involved in the story.

[James D Macdonald]

Why is exposition necessarily a bad thing?

Exposition is a bad thing if and only if the reader doesn't care about the information.

First, make the reader care. Then you can get away with a block of text where the narrator just sits there and expounds if you want to do it that way.

Look at Moby-Dick (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0142000086/ref=nosim/madhousemanor) for a novel that's 99 44/100% exposition.

If the reader is going to skip over the paragraph looking for the next interesting thing, then the writer doesn't need to put that paragraph there to start with. Leave out the things the reader is going to skip.

The first question is: Do the readers really need to know about Sadie's unfortunate automobile accident? If so, do they need to know about it explicitly? Can it be summarized in a sentence? Or will it be better brought forward through a thousand subtle things, in the gestures she makes, in her word choices (both the things she says and the things she doesn't say)?

This is the art, my friends.

Does word of Sadie's accident advance the plot?

Does it support the theme?

Does it reveal character?

Now: Find a favorite book. An author you really enjoy. Someone of whom you say "I wish I could be him when I grow up!"

Take that book. Go through with a highlighter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006IEJI/madhousemanor) and mark all the exposition. See how that author did it.

Guys, over the course of the last darn-near ninety pages and nine months of discussion I've handed out lots of assignments. Show of hands, here: How many of you have done them?

<scold> Yes, learning to write is difficult. Yes, it's time consuming. Yes, it feels like you're back in school. I'm only recommending things that I've personally done, and that through my own experience I've found useful in understanding writing and becoming a stronger writer. Guys, this isn't a joke. Do the flippin' work. </scold>

[James D Macdonald]

You want an open anthology?

Guidelines here: www.cascadiacon.org/Anthology.htm (http://www.cascadiacon.org/Anthology.htm)

To be published by Windstorm Creative (http://www.windstormcreative.com/). Make sure you read their guidelines too.

Next assignment: Write a story for this anthology and submit it.

Will your story be bought? Probably not.

But I promise you, the only stories that will be bought are the ones that were written and submitted.

Unwritten stories never sell.
Unsubmitted stories never sell.

After that, it's a matter of skill, craft, and luck -- but less luck than many people would have you believe.

This is getting far afield from novels. But only way to get professional sales is to a) write professional-quality prose, and b) submit it to professional markets.

[maestrowork]

If your backstories are more interesting than your main story, then you have the wrong story.

[James D Macdonald]

If your backstories are more interesting than your main story, then you have the wrong story.

Amen, brother.

===============

This falls under Category 12 in the list of Reasons Books Are Rejected. A working editor explains:




1. Author is functionally illiterate.

2. Author has submitted some variety of literature we don’t publish: poetry, religious revelation, political rant, illustrated fanfic, etc.

3. Author has a serious neurochemical disorder, puts all important words into capital letters, and would type out to the margins if MSWord would let him.

4. Author is on bad terms with the Muse of Language. Parts of speech are not what they should be. Confusion-of-motion problems inadvertently generate hideous images. Words are supplanted by their similar-sounding cousins: towed the line, deep-seeded, incentiary, reeking havoc, nearly penultimate, dire straights, viscous/vicious.

5. Author can write basic sentences, but not string them together in any way that adds up to paragraphs.

6. Author has a moderate neurochemical disorder and can’t tell when he or she has changed the subject. This greatly facilitates composition, but is hard on comprehension.

7. Author can write passable paragraphs, and has a sufficiently functional plot that readers would notice if you shuffled the chapters into a different order. However, the story and the manner of its telling are alike hackneyed, dull, and pointless.


(At this point, you have eliminated 60-75% of your submissions. Almost all the reading-and-thinking time will be spent on the remaining fraction.)


8. It’s nice that the author is working on his/her problems, but the process would be better served by seeing a shrink than by writing novels.

9. Nobody but the author is ever going to care about this dull, flaccid, underperforming book.

10. The book has an engaging plot. Trouble is, it’s not the author’s, and everybody’s already seen that movie/read that book/collected that comic.


(You have now eliminated 95-99% of the submissions.)


11. Someone could publish this book, but we don’t see why it should be us.

12. Author is talented, but has written the wrong book.

13. It’s a good book, but the house isn’t going to get behind it, so if you buy it, it’ll just get lost in the shuffle.

14. Buy this book.


Go here (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html) for the full article and discussion. (I've recommended this site before. Really, go there, and do a couple of weeks' reading.)

============

Other examples of "Author Has Written the Wrong Book" might include Little Women by Tom Clancy.

[maestrowork]

How do you know you've written the wrong book (some people do try though and "succeed" -- Patterson's new romance novel, for example... *sigh*)? Or that your story is boring/mundane/been-there-done-that?

We tell writers to "write what moves them" -- however, it's usually too late in the game when we tell them, "your story is boring. And it was called Little Man Tate in its past life."

It comes back to a question I posted earlier -- what makes a reader turn the page and not think he's seen the show before? "Interesting people doing interesting things" still doesn't explain it for me.

Writing is art -- that makes the "what works and what doesn't" even more baffling.

[James D Macdonald]

I'm afraid I don't have the answer to that question, Maestro. If I had the answer, I'd bottle it and sell it -- after I'd drunk a whole lot myself.

When the answer comes back, "Isn't working," all we can really do is use different words in another order to tell a different story. Maybe the next one will be better.

This is why we have to be introspective, and honest about our works. If we learn nothing, likely we'll keep repeating the same mistakes rather than finding new and original mistakes to make.

============

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[JoannaC]

I especially liked #4. I cannot tell you how many posts to my writing group begin with a short "summery" of the story contained therein.

I think the problem I was having with Kelley Armstrong's book was that she goes to such lengths to set up Clay as Elena's "demon lover" who pulls her between two worlds that she seems to overlook the fact that Elena was with Clay before she knew he was a demon. It's all very well to play up his "demon" traits (temper, imposing physique, lack of understanding of human empathy) to contrast him with Elena's ideal normal man, but she was a regular girl when she fell for him. I would have liked a bit more detail on just what would make the human Elena fall for such a lug.

I think that sometimes too, you can be disappointed when the book is not the first you have read by the author and you compare them. The Way the Crow Flies by Ann-Marie McDonald was I suppose an okay book, but compared to her first book was VERY light on plot. Pretty much one thing happened, and there was this espionage subplot that did not work at all. It was not a terrible book but compared to her first, it was pretty dull.

[SRHowen]

LOL

James, I have not done the exercises--can I be excused, please? I've really done them all --well almost all, before--in one form or another. And I do work as an editor, and I do have a degree, and I am published, and I do have a good "real" agent (you can vouch for him), and I do have a novel out there and 9 others under my belt--almost 10 now. Me thinks I know how to write--though there is always room for improvement.

LOL

On exposition: I am not advocating that a person uses long paragraphs of author voice to tell back story--but only bits here and there to give what's needed. All we need a brief word--The cashier reminded him of his ex-wife. Nasally voice, over permed hair, and the same bobble headed laugh. Maybe he could find a different checkout line.

What do we know --he was married. His ex-wife was a ditz--or he thought she was. And that he wants nothing to do with the ex-wife or anyone that reminds him of her. It hints at a deeper hurt than he is admitting to himself at this point.

If you keep it to a line or two and work it into what the character is doing at the time, then you can tell a lot about the back-story--the what came before the middle where you are.

So often writers get caught up in the -- I have to set this up, but I want them to know. It goes back to what James said. If it doesn't advance the plot you don't need it.

Shawn

[James D Macdonald]

I wouldn't tell you, Shawn, or Jim Ritchie, or Karen Ranney, or any of the published pros how to write -- all I promise is that people who read this thread will know how I write, and if some can learn from that enough to move from not-yet-published to published, then good on them!

Not that any of us are beyond learning new things....

[SRHowen]

ahh I am so relived--:ha

I agree. The best way to learn to write is to try it like someone else, and if that way doesn't work, move on until you find the way it works for you. Eventually you will find your style and method --but only after a lot of misfires.

Of my first short story--a very helpful beta reader said--hey this reads like an excerpt from Nancy Drew.:smack :ack

When someone said, hey move over King here comes Shawn, I knew I was getting somewhere.

When an agent said--I love the almost Slaughter House Five like moments, and then went on to accept the work--I knew I'd done it.

But it took several completed novels and misfires to get there. And I only got there through many exercises.

Do Jame's class assignments--they can't hurt. They can only help.

Shawn

[JoannaC]

I have been reading the Nora Robers biography/companion, which I found at the used bookstore bargain bin for $4, and she says she wrote 6 novels before she finally got one published. So everyone starts somewhere. I remember thinking that was why Nanowrimo was such a good idea, because you can't write 50,000 words and fail to learn anything :-) Nora Roberts is also an excellent example of the "butt in chair" method of writing. That's how she cranks out 6 or 7 books a year---writing from 9 to 5. She says int he interview that it is her old Catholic school work ethic and that "Sister Mary Responsibility" does more for her writing than "inspiration." I know that some writers tend to dismiss the genre stuff, but I am not one off them, and I have to give Nora Roberts credit for being arguably the hardest-working and most diligent writer I have ever heard of.

And I quite agree with her on the responsibility issue. I see nothing wrong with saying okay, I can be an artist but part of that is making the art fit in with the editorial guidelines. One of Nora's Harlequin series was printed across four lines, one book per line for four months. She had to research the requirements of four separate types of story instead of just writing them all for the same line. And she puleld it off. That's dedication.

Joanna

[Gala]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The best way to learn to write is to try it like someone else, and if that way doesn't work, move on until you find the way it works for you.<hr></blockquote>

This is so wrong.

IMHO.

<img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif" />

[espz]

Would it be horrible to ask for a recap of your assignments, Jim?

I have several bookmarks/favorites linked inside different threads that I like to go back to for reference here, but I'm pretty sure I don't have all the assignments straight, and I can't be the only one!

[James D Macdonald]

Yeah, it would be horrible, espz. But that doesn't mean I won't do it....

[James D Macdonald]

The over-all assignment: Write every day.



Assignment One Get, read, and play through Logical Chess Move By Move.

Assignment Two Go to a bookstore, watch readers selecting which books they want to buy.

Assignment Three Retype the first chapter of your favorite novel.

Assignment Four Read The Sun, The Moon, and The Stars and Misery.

Assignment Five Watch Sweeney Todd In Concert

Assignment Six Get and work through a high school review grammar workbook; get and read Fowler's Modern English Usage Dictionary.

Assignment Seven Memorize the Hollow Crown speech from Richard II.

Assignment Eight Watch Minority Report and L.A. Confidential.

Assignment Nine Read Red Harvest. Watch Yojimbo, Last Man Standing, A Fistful of Dollars, and Miller's Crossing.

Assignment Ten Learn how to do Celtic Knotwork

Assignment Eleven A round-up of books, movies, and articles. Watch the movies, read the articles, add the books to your library.

Assignment Twelve Build a model.

Assignment Thirteen Read one book from each year's best-seller list.

Assignment Fourteen Watch a movie a night for a month.

Assignment Fifteen Diagram a sentence from A Visit From St. Nicholas.

Assignment Sixteen See a stage play, watch a movie, watch a magician.

Assignment Seventeen Watch two particular episodes from X-Files and Millennium.

Assignment Eighteen Bake a lime pie.

Assignment Nineteen Memorize The Walrus and the Carpenter while wearing a paper hat.

Assignment Twenty Highlight the exposition in a published novel.

Assignment Twenty-One Write and submit a short story to an open anthology.

Assignment Twenty-Two Write your novel!
Okay, I did all that. Now what?

You've finished your novel, then?

Submit it, following the publishers' guidelines, to paying markets. Send it out 'til Hell won't have it.

Meanwhile, start work on your next book.

Our dialog-only story. (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/vamphead.htm)

[espz]

:hail

[SRHowen]

I don't mean to copy anyone--what I mean is to try others writing methods.

Some outline, some don't and so on.

Shawn

[Zed Lopez]

over-all: sketchy. I haven't written every day. But I wrote yesterday, and as soon as I post this, I'm going to go write.

#1: I just got my Logical Chess this week.

#4: I read The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars.

#6: No, but I am a Grammar God (http://quizilla.com/users/BaalObsidian/quizzes/How%20grammatically%20sound%20are%20you%3F/). Still, I'm sure I could benefit from reading Fowler's cover-to-cover.

#9: I recently read Red Harvest and watched "Miller's Crossing" and "A Fistful of Dollars"; I have "Yojimbo" out of the library now.

#19: I already have "The Walrus and the Carpenter" memorized, but I did it without a paper hat.

Further behind than I realized...

[MiltonPope]

Okay, I did all that. Now what? :grin

--Milton

[James D Macdonald]

Okay, I did all that. Now what?

You've finished your novel, then?

Submit it, following the publishers' guidelines, to paying markets. Send it out 'til Hell won't have it.

Meanwhile, start work on your next book.

[James D Macdonald]

Our dialog-only story. (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/vamphead.htm)

<HR>

Nobody Has to Know
by
J.D. Macdonald & Debra Doyle


about 790 words

[aka eraser]

Bravo! Loved it.

[MiltonPope]

You've finished your novel, then?

---------------------------------------------

My bad. I should know I can't tell deadpan jokes from this distance.

I've done only a few of your assignments, but I'm still working on them. And the novel is coming along all right.

Thank you VERY much for all your advice here.

--Milton:b

[James D Macdonald]

Milton, what I want you and every writer to do is this:

Think about your craft

Practice your craft.

[Betty W01]

Jim, I loved your vampire story. Great job of just using dialogue, and interesting story, too.


and this:

Send it out 'til Hell won't have it.

Best comment on perseverance I've ever read!

:rofl

[DanALewis]

And there, I used my one exclamation point. Greetings to all. Tag, you're it.

[JuliePgh]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Re: Not-so-secret agents
A useful agent has sold books that you've heard of.

So ...

Take a book that you've read and liked. Find out who agented it. Write to that guy.
<hr></blockquote>

Jim,
A while back you wrote the lines above. How does one find out who agented a particular book?

[maestrowork]

Book catalogs, author's website, publisher, etc.

[Yeshanu]

I believe UJ also said to check the acknowledgments the author writes at the beginning of the book...

[HConn]

How does one find out who agented a particular book?

I'd start with Google.

[maestrowork]

Writers don't always thank their agents. :-)

[James D Macdonald]

After Google, there's always calling the publisher on the phone and saying "Hi! Who agented [title of book]?"

Or there's writing to the author, care of the publisher, with SASE, and saying "Hi! Who's your agent?"

There's <a href="http://www.agentresearch.com/" target="_new">www.agentresearch.com/</a>

And there's asking your old chums Ann and Victoria. They might know.

[gp101]

For six days you people have kept me from cleaning my house, doing my laundry, and playing with my dog--he's quite upset, and I've run out of socks (don't get me going on underwear). I kept returning to this thread like a junkie for my fix; have barely touched the other threads on this board yet.

Lots o' good stuff. Appreciate Uncle Jim's dedication and knowledge. A lot of his advice I've already read in books, but some of it is new (and eye-opening) to me. But his use of analogies early in this thread is what really cemented certain things for me, or helped explain certain things I'd already read, but didn't quite get.

I've resisted posting till getting thru the previous material, so here goes:

[gp101]

1. Does anybody else suffer back pain when writing too long? Or did you already have back problems before deciding to be a writer? How do you cope, remedy, or avoid back pain? Certain furniture, ergonomics, exercise, medication?

[gp101]

2. Have heard to avoid agents/publishers listed in Writers Market and similar publications because EVERYONE uses them and agents and publishers listed are burnt out on newbies.

Any comment from the pros? What other alternatives are there?

[gp101]

3. Who are the honest-to-goodness published writers, or editors on this thread? Obviously I know Jim has made it. Also seems like AKA Eraser, Reph, and Shawn are accomplished.

Thx for putting up with my four posts till now.

[evanaharris]

use better posture. seriously. don't slump, don't slouch. sit erect. search web md, or, better yet, ask your doctor. if you use good posture and your back still hurts, then DEFINITELY talk to your doctor.

I had back problems for a long time, and you'd be surprised what sitting upright and sucking in your gut can do.

[HConn]

A good way to deal with back pain is to strengthen your stomach muscles. Strong abs help support your torso, and can ease the strain on your back muscles.

I wouldn't worry about agents and publishers who are burned out on newbies. They're only burned out if you aren't "good." If you offer them what they want, they are happy to see you.

[maestrowork]

1. Ergonomics of your work space is very important. Invest in a good chair, a nice desk, and a good lamp.

2. It's part of the game. There are some agents not listed in WM though -- check out the AAR site.

3. I'm published, although only non-fiction, not fiction. You've got to start somewhere, right?

[SRHowen]

If agents were burnt out on new writers then where would new material come from? King, Clancy etc won't live forever and every agent wants that client that will be #1 for 52 weeks.

WM and other sources are great places to find an agent--but remember the golden rule--money flows to the writer. And do research.

Shawn

[reph]

1. Daily stretching and strengthening exercises, wisely chosen chairs, frequent breaks from sitting, and chiropractic.

3. I only marginally belong in a list of accomplished published writers. Mostly, I've copy-edited academic material and written magazine puzzles. I won a humor-writing contest once.

[James D Macdonald]

Karen Ranney and Jim Ritchie are two of the other pros who post here from time to time -- though I've not gone and asked who might be behind various screen names. My basic position is that we're all writers here -- maybe at different places on our paths, but we're all writers. Anyone who puts finger to keyboard is my brother or sister.

<hr>

I have a really good chair. I also recommend lots of situps and crunchs, and walking twenty minutes a day is a good plan.

<hr>

I also recommend those <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000642RX/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/" target="_new">ergonomic split-keyboards</a>. They allow you to type with your wrists straight rather than bent, and lower the chance of carpal-tunnel syndrome.

[gp101]

My first "literary" question:
I set out a premise I intended to prove in the novel I started. Seems like every character's actions will prove this premise (I'm three-quarters done), except for one character. Does it make for a poor read or unfulfilled ending if four of your five main characters act out your premise, but one stubbornly doesn't?

For example, if the premise is "living a lie brings catastrophe", but one character does live a lie that doesn't result in catastrophe, does that negate everything else? He's not the protagonist or antagonist; he serves in the subplot which ties into the main plot in the climax. Yes, I know my ending, and it seems logical--thru actions this particular character takes--that he isn't subject to the law of the premise.

Is this like four of us standing on the ground, while a fifth person floats in the air, exempt from the law of gravity? Or can this character get a pass?

[James D Macdonald]

Have heard to avoid agents/publishers listed in Writers Market and similar publications because EVERYONE uses them and agents and publishers listed are burnt out on newbies.

If you avoid them, who's left?

Seriously, you should avoid agents who advertise in <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005NIPH/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Writer's Digest</A>, but ...

Publishers and agents are in business to find the one-in-a-hundred newbie who can tell a story. If that's you, you can ignore the other ninety-nine. The editors and agents slip rejection slips into envelopes all the time. What's one more?

[James D Macdonald]

Or can this character get a pass?

I can't possibly say without reading your novel.

Consider -- is this character a counterpoint, or a contrast to the other characters?

Is everything he does motivated? Is he natural? Does he have a mix of traits? Is he, in any way, arbitrary?

Suggestion one: finish your book.

Suggestion two: put it in your desk drawer for a month, then re-read it.

You may find that you've answered your question.

[Yeshanu]

I also recommend lots of situps and crunchs, and walking twenty minutes a day is a good plan.

I assume this is added to our list of exercises that you posted above? :)

[maestrowork]

As long as your characters and your story make sense, and the story itself is true to your theme, I don't see a problem. Actually, it can be an interesting counter point to see that, for example, "true love conquers all" -- BUT... not always.

Makes it more real.

[JuliePgh]

I've completed my novel (SFF), revised, and have put it down. My beta reader read Chapter 1 (He's promised to do a chapter a night so that's how I'm receiving feedback). He said the story moved, kept his interest but he didn't necessarily care about/feel for the protag yet and believes he has to keep reading before he can judge. Also, of the other two characters introduced in chap. 1, the minor character has left an impression in his mind (he's very brutal), but not the major character (he's more reserved). My reader also said he thought there should be background telling how the characters came together. I have integrated background to the extent I feel appropriate and believe his comment may come from lack of familiarity with the genre.

On to my questions:

1) How does one make the reader care about the protag in the first few pages of the novel? Or is that not necessarily a goal early on?

2) How much presence should other minor and major characters have in the first chapter?

[James D Macdonald]

1) The reader will automatically bond with the first character they meet. Show the protag a) with a problem, and b) doing something. The eye will follow a moving object. If two objects are moving, the eye will follow the faster-moving one.

2) As much as necessary to advance the plot, support theme, and reveal character.

See above, previous advice about taking a published novel and retyping the first chapter yourself. How does your favorite author do these things?

[maestrowork]

Julie, ask a few more betas to read it first. If five people say the same thing, then it may be something you should consider.

I agree with Uncle Jim. Give your main character central stage (even if he's a weaker character than your minor one) and give him a real, interesting problem. It's okay if your second bananas are more interesting (most second bananas are).

[JuliePgh]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The reader will automatically bond with the first character they meet. Show the protag a) with a problem, and b) doing something. <hr></blockquote>

Chap 1 starts with the character tracking someone and worrying about whether or not she'll be able to appease her boss after she screwed up. I do reveal character, advance plot, but I'm not sure exactly sure what you mean by support theme (is this a character's internal conflict?).

My reader said he liked how Ch 1 started with action and he describes my character as I intended her to come across. I've typed my favorite author's first chapter and conflict between characters seems to be key. My conflict b/w characters starts four paragraphs down, but I feel I need the first few paragraphs to set up character and conflict.

[James D Macdonald]

Then, Julie, don't worry about it, and please yourself. Ask more beta readers for their input.

[SRHowen]

conflict does not have to be between characters--it can be within as well, or with nature. SO often a writer assumes conflict means it has to be between characters.

Whenever I read the line similar to but I need to set this up--I cringe. Most of the time it means there is a flaw in the way the story is done. I am not saying this is the case in your story. (I've not read it) But if you need to set the stage maybe you are on the wrong stage--you may be standing on the back story one and need to move on to the place the conflict starts and to put the main character center stage in the middle of it. The real conflict not just action. The reader is going to bond with the character who has the greatest conflict in their story life no matter who is introduced first.

Shawn

[JuliePgh]

Maestro,

I think you're right, I need more readers to get a consensus going. My protag is center stage, and I just realized how to make her problem more of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

-----------------
Jim & Maestro, as always, thank you!

[James D Macdonald]

When beta readers tell you there's a problem they're usually right. When they tell you what the problem is they're usually wrong.

[JuliePgh]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The real conflict not just action.<hr></blockquote>

SRHowen, thank you. Your words helped me put my 'problem' in focus. I was starting with the character's internal conflict before reaching the action without realizing it, however that conflict was burried. Once your words sank in, I revised with a new outlook. My begining is much stronger now, thanks!


As an aside, I have to say it's incredible how much my beginning (and writing in general) has changed (and improved!) based on the past conversations of this thread!

[madeya ru]

I've gotten about half way through this thread from the point I came in at (somewhere around page 72) and as of yet haven't found this issue. So I hope I'm not bringing up something that has already been discussed. If so, just direct me.

I can't write myself out of my book. Not literally, I'm not a character. I seem to have found myself in a corner and I'm stuck. Thing is, I know how it begins, the middle, and how it ends, and I'm satisfied with what I have, but I reach the 3/4 mark (the point where I start moving from the middle to the end) and I can't seem to find my way to the end.

I have the first draft written, didn't like the journey to the end in that one (from this 3/4 mark point), then went about outlining the novel, much like Jim does from what I've read, have been rewritting along the way, but I keep getting stuck at the same point.

I've broached twenty million different angles and nothing seems to fly. I guess the question that keeps coming up is when do you know that the story isn't working, or rather, how do you know if the story isn't working? And at what point, if there is one, do you hang it up and move on to something new? Or is it a matter of determination and making it work? I really want to make it work, but frustration is getting the best of me. Is there a way out?

[James D Macdonald]

Okay. Let's see what we can do for you, madeya.

Possibilities: The first one that comes to mind is that the ending you have in mind for this story isn't the right ending.

So ... go to that 3/4 point, and go in some different direction. Forget what you had planned for them. See where the characters take you.

Second suggestion: Put this book in your desk drawer and write a whole 'nother novel, beginning to end. When you've done that, take this one out, and re-read it. Perhaps a solution will occur to you then. Or perhaps you'll say to yourself, "The desk drawer is the right place for this novel," and you'll continue in your own writing life in a different direction.

[James D Macdonald]

I'll only be intermittantly on-line over the next while. Family matters, y'know.

In my absence, I've asked Editrx to look in from time to time.

[maestrowork]

Or, brainstorm with someone. I found that when I was stuck, it really helped when I brainstormed with trusted friends (or writing partners). It freed my mind and gave me ideas -- sometimes even epiphanies.

[evanaharris]

I'll only be intermittantly on-line over the next while. Family matters, y'know.

We have families? Offline?

[espz]

Assignment Thirteen Read one book from each year's best-seller list.

This is a helpful link. A whole bunch of public domain novels from the early days.

www.readbookonline.net/fictionNovel/ (http://www.readbookonline.net/fictionNovel/)

Trying to get through Winston Churchill at the moment. He was amazingly popular in the early 1900's and I'm trying to figure out WHY?!?! :grin

[Euan Harvey]

James D MacDonald said:

"Ask more beta readers for their input."

I second this. The first two beta readers for my novel said they felt nothing for the characters and felt like they didn't know them (I posted a question about this waaaayyy back on this thread).

But the very next two people who read it said that they thought I had captured the characters really well.

So who to believe?

Stephen King says that if it's a tie on beta reader reaction, then the author wins by default. That's the advice I'm taking.

Cheers,

Euan

[madeya ru]

Thanks Jim. A btw, thanks for taking the time for the thread. It's quite useful and interesting.

I've been mulling this over since I read your post, and as I'm not ready to put this in a drawer yet, I've been looking at the opposite direction, one I've been avoiding (not sure why), but it occured to me that going that route will put my protag in the situation he fears most. At this point, I was fighting that. And really, I do know that's what you're supposed to do with those characters. Again thanks.

[madeya ru]

How many beta readers do you usually have read your work? I know this is going to vary. I know people who will have anyone within distance read their work, while there are others who have a limited amount of readers. I have also heard that it's not wise to have too many beta readers, though I'm not sure of the count of too many. So I'm just curious how many different readers everyone has.

[maestrowork]

Don't choose your best friends or mother as beta. Consider these:

1. Someone who reads alot and know a good book when she reads one
2. Someone who may not be a writer herself -- sometimes writers can be jaded.. you want an unbiased perspective
3. Someone you can trust -- very important
4. Someone who can be really candid and honest -- tell you straight up without sugar coating anything; but see #3.
5. Someone who knows something about your market/genre.

[Kate Nepveu]

Dear Uncle Jim:

I lurk on rec.arts.sf.composition, much as I do here, and a new topic has come up there that I thought might provide good fodder for this thread. I'm posting it now because I'll never remember if I wait until you're fully back.

Question: (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6115c740.0407131610.518e8134%40posting .google.com) is there any question that you wish new writers would ask? . . . . Are there any questions that would help a beginner improve, but which no beginner ever seems to think of asking?

There are some interesting answers in that 60-odd post thread (as of now), as well.

[Kate Nepveu]

From talking to writers I know, I get the impression that this depends a lot on personality and finding useful people. Sometimes you want someone for a specific role--reading a series book, or a book based on X historical event, with no knowledge of the previous books/event; reading a book to spot errors in the legal/weapons/horse bits; etc. Sometimes you just don't have lots of people you trust to be useful. It may be something you have to work out for yourself, by trial and error.

maestrowork's suggestions are good. On a slightly different note--as a reader, I know that I'm sensitive to some things, like POV and pacing, and tend not to notice others, like physical descriptions. If your potential betas can tell you about the way they approach fiction, that will help you evaluate their reactions.

[LiamJackson]

I have three trusted beta readers and belong to a crit group that takes great pride in providing honest criticism.

By the way, I think Maestro's list of beta reader attributes is pretty damned solid. Knowledge and honesty. Without those two elements, a critique is nearly worthless.

Also keep in mind that knowledge takes many forms. I have friends who can line edit and play grammar police with the best of them, but wouldn't know a good story if it bit them in the butt. Others can spot an error in backstory from a hundred paces but can't tell a gerund from an article.

[madeya ru]

Maestro - My mother wouldn't even consider reading my book so I wouldn't worry about that. I was curious because I've noticed, at least with me, that if I get too much feedback it can completely throw me off. I've got my grammer police, which for me is essential because I have a tendency to write by ear. It's not that I don't know the rules of language, but from reading so much, I pick up what I like and use it. I couldn't tear a sentence apart now a days even if I wanted to. Probably should look through my english books (which I do keep on hand and use when needed). Thanks for the input from everyone. Currently I don't have a list of readers. Only the one mentioned and while he's good for the grammer, I can't say that he'll do much regarding the story. Oh yeah, and he's great for medical, weapons, and fighting (which for me, helps a lot). Since the novel isn't yet finished, I'm not currently in the need of beta readers, I just wanted to get a feel for what's too much or not enough. But I will certainly keep Maestro's list on hand.

[maestrowork]

Don't confuse your betas with proofers or editors.

You need to be able to self edit -- sharpen your grammar and spelling skills. You are the writer.

You may want to find someone who knows about writing to do a check on technical things like POVs, structures, etc.

You may want to join a real crit. group with other writers to iron out anything dealing with writing.

But I think the idea of betas is that they are your focus group of readers. They're either your target demographics (housewives who read horror, for example) -- and they know what they read. The questions you ask them are different from the ones you'd ask your editor/proofer. Basically, if they don't know you at all, would they buy and read the darn book and enjoy it? What bothers them and what doesn't make sense to them?

Like Jim said: if a beta tells you something is wrong with your book, she's usually right. If a beta tells you WHAT is wrong with your book, she's probably wrong. The trick is, as the original question poses: who should be your perfect beta?

[HeathenPrince]

i would think a good beta reader could also spot things like awkward sentence structure and routine matters of grammar. but the thing i hear most is, "i can police my own grammar. just tell if the damn story rings true."

[maestrowork]

If your book is poorly written (even if a good story), full of grammatical and spelling errors, your betas WILL tell you. No one can finish a book if it's badly written -- not even your mother.

[madeya ru]

I never considered that betas and proofers are two different things, and maybe that's been the problem. I was involved in a rather bad crit group a while back and come to think of it, all they did was smack grammer. Touched on POV on occasion, but most of it was grammer. They proofed and that was about it. Of course, I ran from this group rather quickly. But then I do have to say that I was involved with a group many years ago, it was a creative writing class, and the same people kept taking the class because we all got so much out of it (in fact, expanded on our own after the course disolved), and I guess they would have been what is described as good beta readers. So because of the proof group, I have a bad taste in my mouth for crit groups at the moment, but I think I'll have to search one out at some point. Shop around. This has been quite enlightening. Thanks all.

[maestrowork]

When I ask for crit, I specifically ask that they don't crit my grammar or spelling errors. I ask specific questions: character development, story arcs, plot, POV, etc. or try to rewrite my proses. Granted, if they want to do some proofing, I'd welcome it, but mostly that's not the focus.

[LiamJackson]

I suppose, ideally, you have a beta who can do both: police the grammar and the story. However, while policing grammar/punctuation is a must, I can find no end of grammar cops to line-edit the hell of out a a story/article/traffic sign.

Many of those same grammar cops might well miss obvious misfires in POV, inconsistencies in voice, and more subtle nuances of storytelling. It takes a different kind of eye to spot those problems. Some people have both. I think most do not.

One of my current professional tasks is fleshing out terminal and enabling learning objectives in technical/scientific training material and ensuring all data is 100% accurate. I am considered extremely competent by those who sign the paychecks. However, I can't completely edit my own fiction writing (yet) to save my life. I still miss things that I feel should be obivious and it mortifies me.

I'm a work in progress. I firmly believe that with time and practice, I'll eventually be able to do the vast majority, if not all, of my own trouble-shooting. Still, I can't ever see writing fiction without the beta reader as a proving ground. My first completed novel was a smoldering beta-battleground before leaving home.

Calling all pros: Do any of you ever submit novella or novel length work without first obtaining beta reader feedback?

[JuliePgh]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The questions you ask them are different from the ones you'd ask your editor/proofer.<hr></blockquote>

Maestro,

My mom belongs to the red pen grammar squad. Last time she went through one of my novels, she made her share of grammar corrections but she also attacked style as if style is grammar. Perhaps I'm confused on how to differentiate the two. Any suggestions on how I can keep her focused on grammar?

[maestrowork]

Next time she marks something as "grammatically" wrong or something, point it out to her and say, it's not. It's a stylistic choice -- for example, sentence fragments or inversion. It's good to know good styles vs. bad but... a good editor shouldn't mess with a writer's style.

Or, you can simply ignore her marks on your style and just focus on the grammar. It's your choice. Just because she says something doesn't mean you have to agree.

[JuliePgh]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>ignore her marks on your style and just focus on the grammar <hr></blockquote> This is difficult, as I start losing sight of what is grammar and what is style, but I like your first suggestion, thanks.

By the way, what is inversion?

[Ashnistrike]

I've found it useful to have several beta readers. They all react differently, and I know them all well enough to know where they are coming from. About half of them are other writers that I beta for, which means that they won't be afraid to be honest (because, at a gut level, they understand the value of good crit). Non-writers tend to soften their comments a little.

My two most useful betas:

1) Another writer, the only one of my friends who also completes and submits stories. I know his reading tastes well enough that I can tell when his complaints are ones that others will share. I also know that if something of mine really grabs him, it will grab a lot of other people. We are both deadly honest with each other's stories, and know that it won't be taken personally.

2) My first beta, who brainstormed with me through the world-building and character development. Her criticism on plot and character is close to useless--she knows things about the characters that I've never written down, and things about the plot that don't happen for three books. However, she will immediately spot plot holes, world-building flaws, and characterization inconsistencies that no one else would know were a problem. She's also my medical and combat consultant.

Incidentally, I'm not sure I agree with the statement that betas are usually wrong about what needs to be fixed. Mine tend to either be dead-on, or not suggest solutions in the first place. I suppose it depends on the betas, or possibly on the type of mistakes that the writer makes.

I know this is unusual, but I like to get beta feedback scene-by-scene, as I'm writing. Being asked, "So what happens then? Please don't kill him!" is part of my incentive to keep writing. Plus, sometimes my readers have suggestions for what to do to my characters that are much nastier than what I had in mind. :evil

[maestrowork]

www.manilatimes.net/natio...top14.html (http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2004/feb/17/yehey/top_stories/20040217top14.html)

E.g. "Along the lonely road lay the dead flowers."

[Yeshanu]

Don't choose your best friends or mother as beta.

Which only goes to show that in specific circumstances, rules can be broken.

I did (well, it was my dad, brother and sister who beta read, in addition to my husband and two best friends.). It worked, although my dad isn't too happy with the rewrite.

It worked because all of maestro's other criteria were met. Except for my sister, who didn't read in the genre, and so didn't understand some of the conventions.

One thing I might add is that you should probably have different betas for your subsequent drafts, because the first set already knows the basic plot, and are likely to miss any inconsistencies you inadvertently add in the second draft.

madeya,

One thing that worked for me when I was stuck (though it's truly an odd thing to do): I got up from the computer and my husband (now my ex) sat down and typed a paragraph. One that went in a totally different direction than I had expected. I responded, he responded to my response...
We kept on going. We wrote crap (literally -- my characters ended up having a food fight in the middle of a formal banquet) but it got me unstuck and my characters continued their journey.

Not a common solution, I suspect, but if you have a writer friend who's willing to play along, let them write a paragraph or two, then continue on and see where that leads you.

[ChunkyC]

Good discussion of beta reader's, all.

I have four primaries who read the entire book for me. Three of the four are readers of the genre I write, and I consider them intelligent and honest. The fourth is a writer who I feel is a good judge of grammar, POV, that sort of stuff. She is brutally honest. She doesn't normally read in my genre. It makes it a good test for me; if my characters/story can engage her, it's a good sign.

I also submit chapters or scenes to other serious writer friends for specific input, then try to incorporate the lessons from their critiques into the entire work.
I still miss things that I feel should be obivious and it mortifies me.
Oh how true for me as well, Liam!

[SRHowen]

Calling all pros: Do any of you ever submit novella or novel length work without first obtaining beta reader feedback?

Only to my agent. He's seen final product and knows what I can do with first drafts. I've even gave him rough ideas for plot and story over the phone and we've talked about them.

If I were looking for an agent or publisher at this point--no way.

I miss too many dumb things, from/form and such.

Reading backward from right to left helps find those, but you still miss a lot of them or at least I do.

Shawn

[gp101]

Is it time maybe to archive this thread as LEARN WITH JIM 1 and start anew? Just a thought.

[DanALewis]

Old Uncle Jim post:
<BLOCKQUOTE>On movement, and on art.

The way to tell the difference between the real world and art is that art has borders. Pictures have frames, stages have curtains, books have covers. You have to provide the illusion that your created world extends beyond its covers, but you aren't going to need to create that outside world. We'll talk about tricks for doing that later.

I'm going to talk about chess games instead...</BLOCKQUOTE>

I realize in some ways we've talked about setting and world-building before. The modeling metaphor speaks to this, where Jim's dad hung the miniature ham hocks in the model that no one would see. So there are details that stay below the surface, info dumps that are never dumped, that contribute to the realism of the story on the top.

[Kate Nepveu]

Post by Nicola Browne (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=cfff65667b5c6529a28bda37b2b58a79.8364% 40mygate.mailgate.org) in rec.arts.sf.composition suggesting a FAQ-type-response to new writers who want to know what to do with critiques.

[maestrowork]

Dan, good question. Writing is art. You don't have to paint every paintstaking detail -- you can, of course, if you choose to do so -- to make the readers imagine your full world. It's like a Monet painting: it's fuzzy, it's abstract, but you know exactly what it is and it is awesome.

But yes, little details here and there makes for a really vivid, evocative read. For example, you don't have to explain the forest of your world down to the last tree branch. That is boring. But if you use the right word in the right place, you can make the readers imagine a forest very similar to that in your mind.

The five senses are a writer's best tools. Give the readers a visual, a sound, a taste, a smell or a feel. It makes ALL the difference.

[ChunkyC]

Dan -- an analogy I like to keep in mind is the iceberg. Show the reader the tip, let them fill in the rest. You just have to decide what percentage of the total iceberg your 'tip' is going to be. That's the art.

[Editrx]

The iceberg analogy is a very good one -- show don't tell is what I often tell writers, especially newer ones. Knowing how much to show is the real art.

BTW, Uncle Jim is on phone with me now and says hello and is pleased that everyone is playing nicely.

Also, don't worry about the length of the thread: the board can handle it. He'll archive and start a new thread when he can or when he gets back.

[DanALewis]

Thanks, all.

[ChunkyC]

And also remember, Dan, that the 'what kind of cereal does he eat' kind of detail can affect how your character behaves, even if you don't put it in the story.

[Karen Ranney]

I never let anyone see my book, not even my agent, before my editor reads it. I'm funny that way.

But I confess to being the world's worst title person. I've only used one working title that ended up being on the final book. I'll ask my newsletter group to please submit titles and the winner's name goes on the dedication page. When my editor tells me the cover committee is meeting, I just sigh because I know they're going to ask me for title ideas and I'm ghastly at that.

Isn't it funny that I have no problem writing 100,000-120,000 words but I can't come up with three or four?

[Jules Hall]

I, too, hate coming up with titles. It's very hard for me. Although I think I've got a good one for my current novel-in-progress.

I also have a very similar problem with my day job -- as a manager at a small software company, I regularly have to title the small pieces of software we produce, which just ends up with myself and the other directors sitting around for hours on end getting increasingly frustrated. Until we get so annoyed with the waste of time that we just decide to use one of the bad suggestions we've already dismissed!

[James D Macdonald]

Hanging out in nursing homes gives you lots of reading time.

Have you missed me? (I'm still not fully back.)

I have thought of a wonderful exercise for y'all, though.

See ya again soon....

[James D Macdonald]

I've been doing more reading and less writing than usual lately.

I've been thinking about what to read, in view of becoming a better/stronger/more interesting/more commercial/happier/richer writer.

My thoughts were these. If you want to be a world-class writer, it strikes me, you study with a world-class writer. You have your target -- you know what genre you want to write in -- so... find the award winners in that genre, and read those books.

Life is short. We will only read so many books. There are more books in the world than anyone could possibly read. Do you have a minute to spare to read tripe, trivia, and trash? Is tripe, trivia, and trash what you aim to write yourself?

I've already assigned you to read a pile of bestsellers (best seller is itself a genre). Think of this as a complement to that assignment.

Therefore: Next assignment, folks. Name your genre, pick up the award winners in that genre for the past ten years, and read 'em. Read 'em with your critical eye, with your writer's eye. How did the author tell the story? How were the effects produced? How are they similar? How are they different? See how the masters did it, go you and do likewise.

So: The Lists.

The National Book Award

1994 A Frolic of His Own - William Gaddis
1995 Sabbath's Theater - Philip Roth
1996 Ship Fever and Other Stories - Andrea Barrett
1997 Cold Mountain - Charles Frazier
1998 Charming Billy - Alice McDermott
1999 Waiting - Ha Jin
2000 In America - Susan Sontag
2001 The Corrections - Jonathan Franzen
2002 Three Junes - Julia Glass
2003 The Great Fire - Shirley Hazzard

World Fantasy Award

1994 Lewis Shiner, Glimpses
1995 James Morrow, Towing Jehovah
1996 Christopher Priest, The Prestige
1997 Rachel Pollack, Godmother Night
1998 The Physiognomy by Jeffrey Ford
1999 Louise Erdrich, The Antelope Wife
2000 Martin Scott, Thraxas
2001 Declare, Tim Powers
2002 The Other Wind, Ursula K. Le Guin
2003 The Facts of Life Graham Joyce

The Pulitzer Prize

1995 The Stone Diaries by Carol Shields
1996 Independence Day by Richard Ford
1997 Martin Dressler: The Tale of an American Dreamer by Steven Millhause
1998 American Pastoral by Philip Roth
1999 The Hours by Michael Cunningham
2000 Interpreter of Maladies by Jhumpa Lahiri
2001 The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay by Michael Chabon
2002 Empire Falls by Richard Russo
2003 Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides
2004 The Known World by Edward P. Jones

The RITA Award (Romance)

Many <a href="http://www.readersread.com/awards/rita.htm" target="_new">sub-genres</a> including historical romance, regency romance, romantic suspense, paranormal romance, contemporary romance, traditional romance, and inspirational romance.

The Edgar Award (Mystery)

1995 The Red Scream, Mary Willis Walker
1996 Come to Grief, Dick Francis
1997 The Chatham School Affair, Thomas H. Cook
1998 Cimarron Rose, James Lee Burke
1999 Mr. White's Confession, Robert Clark
2000 Bones, Jan Burke
2001 The Bottoms, Joe R. Lansdale
2002 Silent Joe, T. Jefferson Parker
2003 Winter and Night, S.J. Rozan
2004 Resurrection Men, Ian Rankin

The Bram Stoker Award (Horror)

1994 Dead in the Water by Nancy Holde
1995 Zombie by Joyce Carol Oates
1996 The Green Mile by Stephen King
1997 Children of the Dusk by Janet Berliner & George Guthridge
1998 Bag of Bones, by Stephen King
1999 Mr. X by Peter Straub
2000 The Traveling Vampire Show by Richard Laymon
2001 American Gods by Neil Gaiman
2002 The Night Class by Tom Piccirilli
2003 lost boy lost girl by Peter Straub

The Nebula Awards (Science Fiction)

1994 Moving Mars by Greg Bear
1995 The Terminal Experiment by Robert J. Sawyer
1996 Slow River by Nicola Griffith
1997 The Moon and the Sun by Vonda N. McIntyre
1998 Forever Peace by Joe Haldeman
1999 Parable of the Talents by Octavia E. Butler
2000 Darwin's Radio by Greg Bear
2001 The Quantum Rose by Catherine Asaro
2002 American Gods by Neil Gaiman
2003 Speed of Dark by Elizabeth Moon

<HR>

Being a writer means that you have homework every day for the rest of your life.

But ... we're readers too, we writers. Primarily, we're readers. We write because no one else has written exactly the story we want to hear.

This is a light burden.

[James D Macdonald]

Trying to get through Winston Churchill at the moment. He was amazingly popular in the early 1900's and I'm trying to figure out WHY?!?!

Look with your writer's eyes. What is this writer trying to do? What is he giving to his audience?

And remember, the reason that when the British Prime Minister, Sir Winston Churchill wrote, this person is why the British chap wrote as "Winston S. Churchill," so that he wouldn't be confused with the best-selling author of historical fictions.

[James D Macdonald]

but it occured to me that going that route will put my protag in the situation he fears most. At this point, I was fighting that. And really, I do know that's what you're supposed to do with those characters.

My long-time writing partner says, "Writing is about a lot of things, but being kind to your characters isn't one of them."

Believe that.

When you can't get to the ending you imagined, that's a clue that it's the wrong ending. Find a new/better one.

There's one ending that I've been trying to reach for eight novels now.

Be true to your characters; be true to yourself. That's what's required of the novelist.

[James D Macdonald]

1. Someone who reads alot and know a good book when she reads one
2. Someone who may not be a writer herself -- sometimes writers can be jaded.. you want an unbiased perspective
3. Someone you can trust -- very important
4. Someone who can be really candid and honest -- tell you straight up without sugar coating anything; but see #3.
5. Someone who knows something about your market/genre.

And another -- someone who has never read a word of yours before; someone who doesn't know your world, who doesn't know your voice. The naive reader in the bookstore. The first reader at the publisher.

[James D Macdonald]

Are there any questions that would help a beginner improve, but which no beginner ever seems to think of asking?

Oh ... my ... Ghod....

Without reading the thread you reference....

Listen, young writer. You ask what you need to do, to improve? You want to know the secret?

Write your story... write your novel... then write another one.

And for heaven's sake think. Think about what you're doing, what worked, what didn't. Be honest. Be brutal -- with yourself.

But, above all,write.

[James D Macdonald]

The trick is, as the original question poses: who should be your perfect beta?

I have a perfect beta. Just one person (and no, it's not my co-writer). But there's one person who I write for, and that's my beta.

To her: Thank you.

And -- I've been a beta. I remember one person. I read her novel, and my comment was (among other things) that I didn't see why the heroine and the villain didn't push the hero off the top of the nearest bell tower and make bets on how high he'd bounce.

She never asked me to comment on another novel.

That novel was never published.

(That author has published other novels.)

Honesty. If you're a beta, be honest.

[James D Macdonald]

Is it time maybe to archive this thread as LEARN WITH JIM 1 and start anew? Just a thought.

When we reach 100 pages. Perhaps.

I imagine then the first dozen posts of the new thread will be links to the old one, to the Best Of posts.

I'm also thinking of doing a FAQ.

Q. How Do I Become a Writer?

A. By sending your writing to editors likely to buy it.

Q. What editor is likely to buy it?

A. One who has bought similar things in the past.

Q. What do you mean "bought"?

A. Sent a check for cash money, to the tune of at least $0.05 cents a word.

Q. How do I know who has bought similar things?

A. By reading the magazine/imprint for which the person edits.

Q. How do I submit?

A. Double-spaced, on one side of the paper, with one-inch margins.

And so on ....

Many years ago, when I was young and innocent, I went to a presentation by a Famous Author, with questions after. And I wanted to be a writer, even then. And I raised my hand, timidly, near the end, and asked "How does one become a published writer?" or words to that effect.

And the famous writer answered, something about inspiration, and vision, and much else that wasn't particularly useful (in that it took me fifteen years to figure out the answer to my question), which was, "Type it on one side of the paper, double spaced, and send it to someone likely to buy it. For cash."

Let me tell you a true thing: if you have a talent for prose fiction (and most people don't -- I swear to you, most people don't), and you've practiced so that your talent is developed -- there are folks who will pay you cash money. You have a rare talent. You are one among a million. You deserve money for what you can do. Do not sell yourself short!

But your first, or your second, or ... need I go on? Your efforts need to be practiced.

Not only must you be good enough, you have to be good enough to go head to head against people who are as talented as you (or more!) and who have been practicing for twenty years.

In the words of Dirty Harry: "Ask yourself, punk, do you feel lucky?"

Guys, I've been talented all my life. I've been writing for forty years. I've been publishing for a bit over fifteen of them.

This is work. This is not just raw talent, this is work. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

[JoannaC]

Hi everyone

I have a question about plot. Basically this is something I have trouble with. So I am doing an experiement with another writer where I begin writing a story, he reads it in pieces as I go, and offers plotting suggestions. So far it is working well, but I am finding it really hard to keep things moving briskly. I was hoping you guys could give me suggesations for what to do next, or at least how to think of what to do next. Here is what I have so far:

1) Before the story begins, a rich reclusive billionaire dies and leaves a will stating that upon his death he will turn his island over to the local populace for a giant treasure hunt and whichever of them finds the buried key can have the whole shebang. Our heroines (two sisters) begin the tale renting a boat to go out there.

2) They are short money for the boat so they hook up with a Pakistani businessman (the person helping with the story is one and wanted to be written in) and an Amercian soldier who offer to share the boat with them. They go rent the boat, during which some backstory on them is revealed as they verify each other's credentials re. eligibility for the game

3) On the boat ride over, they agree to cooperate on the treasure hunt as best as the rules allow to increase their chances. The older sister, who is a high-strung sort in serious need of learning her lesson, begins to get closer to the Pakistani businessman.

4) They arrive at the island and our directed to a holding area where they must camp out until morning. There, they find harsh conditions, but are taken in by a friend of the younger sister, who has picked up some gossip about some of the other treasure hunters during his own wait. Further backstory on the billionaire is also shared by our sole local, the Pakistani, who hints that the billionaire may have been an art forger and thief. He also shares the old coot's love of puzzles and games, and his own suspicion that the treasure hunt is more than it seems. They get their first clue, a riddle that indicates there are spies on the island sent to watch over the game.

5) The younger sister goes off with her friend, and the older sister is left alone with the Pakistani, where she shares her fears that her sister will find the treasure and leave her. (This part, my reader found especially riveting, after complaining that the prior section with the riddle was too slow. He then suggested I have him try to kiss her, then be interrupted by the younger sister falling into the water or something).

So, I am assuming that when we resume tomorrow they get their hands on the island and go off to start finding the treasure. And? I need some tension, some actual plot. I am worried this will become like my first novel, which was all conversations. Somehow 'conversations, but with treasure' does not seem like much of an improvement. I am thinking that some of the competitors will try to corrupt the American and have him sabotage his little team somehow. And possibly there will be a death. But I am just at a loss for what else to do to keep it interesting. Suggestions?

[gp101]

I've got two quick thoughts for you:

First, since you acquiesced to your reader and "wrote him in", he is probably less likely to give you honest assessments as to where your plot should go, particularly when it deals with "his" character. I'm sure he wants to be the hero or get the girl or something like that, so he may not want you making his character look foolish or even suffer through some of the obstacles that characters must suffer through in order to reach or fail their goals.

Second, why are you having someone else decide your plot for you? Where's the fun in that? Sounds more like a classroom assisgnment to connect the dots according to someone else's wishes. I could maybe see you two becoming a team if he's the outliner and you're the writer; filling in the details to the blueprint he draws. But sounds like he's playing it by ear if he's reading a sample then deciding where to go with it. Not that this can't be done; just it's much harder for newbies like us to get away with.

If you two can come up with an ending and connect the dots BEFORE you start tapping away, and ensure that his ego won't be hurt if you have to trash "his" character, I think you'll have a better shot.

Good luck.

[James D Macdonald]

Oh, dear, Joanna.

First, you might want to read The Treasure of the Sierra Madre (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809001608/ref=nosim/madhousemanor) by B. Traven.

Now, consider these possiblities:

While these people are on the island, a bio-engineered plague kills everyone else on earth. What is the treasure worth to them now?

or

The billionaire is still alive, and for reasons of his own wants these particular people corralled. Either they're capable of thwarting his plans elsewhere in the world, or he's planning Weird Medical Experiments.

or

There never was a billionaire; this is just another stupid reality TV game show. When the participants realize this, they destroy the cameras, go to New York, and take over the network that had been sponsoring it. One of our heroes becomes a prophet, but is only able to reveal where lost bread boxes can be found. Since few people have bread boxes any more, and fewer of them lose 'em, this isn't too spectacular. The soldier is accused of having murdered the head of the network. The jury returns the verdict "Justifiable Homicide."

The night before the treasure hunt is to begin is a perfect time for the plot to take a wild turn. Whatever happens should call off the game.


<hr>

I've thought about this a little more.

What's the theme of this book? Who are the characters, really? Once you know those things, you'll have a better idea of which way to move the plot. But since the Pakistani businessman is plotting it for you as you go ... I don't know what to say.

Maybe the Weird Medical Experiment is a mutated form of VD, bioengineered by the billionaire in a failed attempt to create a means of restoring his failing manhood, which has the powers of being a) a true aphrodasiac, and b) horribly fatal. The story is a clever commentary on HIV/AIDS.

[Kate Nepveu]

Are you only listing juried awards, hence no Hugos?

(Science fiction and fantasy, make an interesting comparison with the WFA and the Nebulas:
1994: Green Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson [sf, 2 of 3]
1995: Mirror Dance by Lois McMaster Bujold [sf, middle of long-running series]
1996: The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson [sf]
1997: Blue Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson [sf, 3 of 3]
1998: Forever Peace by Joe Haldeman [sf]
1999: To Say Nothing of the Dog by Connie Willis [sf/farce?]
2000: A Deepness in the Sky by Vernor Vinge [sf]
2001: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire by J. K. Rowling [fantasy]
2002: American Gods by Neil Gaiman [fantasy]

I think all of the genre lists that I'm familiar with are mixed bags, but I'd put _Deepness_ up against just about any novel on these lists.)

(PS: sorry about whatever's making you spend time in a nursing home.)

[John Buehler]

But I am just at a loss for what else to do to keep it interesting. Suggestions?What story are you trying to tell? Why are you telling it? Is it just a random sequence of events that are intended to be entertaining because something is happening? Train wrecks and sex?

Stories like the one you're working through are often an illustration of human nature having to do with selfishness and selflessness around material gain. Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory would be another possible source for you (I don't know if the original book Charlie and the Chocolate Factory has the same message of ethics and morality built into it.)

If you just want interesting plot twists, figure out the twists in advance and then figure out how to tie it all together. You have key plot elements that serve as the starting framework of the story. The stuff in between the key plot elements serve as transitions and buildups to those climaxes of plot.

And I'd encourage you to lose your Pakistani businessman. I have claxons going off all over the place in my head when I hear how this guy is influencing your story. Throw darts at a board with plot twists on it if you must, but don't rely on him.

JB

[HConn]

Writers write because they have something to say. You should have something to say, Joanna. You should have an opinion on your characters and their situation. You should orchestrate the story so that it brings out, in the most dramatic possible way, the strengths and weaknesses of your characters.

Are they too cowardly to pursue their dreams? Do they value wealth above everything? Is a share in the treasure enough to satisfy them?

Pick an idea that you want to write about. Use your characters--all of them--to illustrate that idea. The positives, the negatives, the moral quandries, the moral certainties.

It's not easy. And it doesn't get easier by going to a message board and asking others to do it for you. This is the heavy lifting of being a writer, and you shouldn't be asking others to do it for you.

Let me make a suggestion, though: Finding the key is not the climax of the story. The readers know and expect them to find the key. You need to get to that point in the story early, and move the story on from there.

[Gala]

You should...should...should

What is this, God? I wish I was smart enough to tell other people what they should do.

Joanna--Uncle Jim has given you great advice, you can't go wrong following it. I love that you are writing so much, and are enthusiastic. If you didn't have some talent, you wouldn't know to ask questions.

Speaking of God--as writer, YOU are God and master of your world. Keep writing and writing and writing. You will see your best voice emerge.


My suggestion is to write at least 2 drafts and one hard revision, then show it to betas or critiquers. If you show it too soon, it can become collaboration. One can loose energy about telling the story, because it's already been told to all those people. Just and idea.

Good luck.

[JoannaC]

Thanks, guys. I guess I should have been clearer that it is MY story :) My friend is encouraging me to keep writing, and offering suggestions (such as at one point telling me it was getting dull and something needed to happen) but it IS my story and I do have an idea for how it ends.

The reclusive billionaire was a lover of puzzles (especially the type in Alice in Wonderland, and in fact he is named for Lewis Carroll) and most of the "quest" will be more convoluted than it has to be. But this is the point---my mian characters are developing relationships that will mirror what goes on during the treasure hunt, and will similarly make things harder for themselves than they have to be. The ending will be about how the answer (to both their own problems and the quest itself) is simpler than they thought.

I am a fan of reality shows and how they can expose aspects of people that might be unexpected and I always thought a reality show-type contest would be a great plot for a novel. But I was worried about it "dating" my story, so I figured a more old-fashioned "quest" story would be better. I am having fun with it and making real progress, writing scenes between breaks at work with my friend cheering me on and awaiting the next installment.

In the Nora Roberts bio I read, it said she wrote 6 books before she was ready to be published. I have no problem at all doing this. My goal at this point is simply to put in the time writing, to write as much as I can and learn from it.

Joanna

[James D Macdonald]

Hi, Kate --

I left off the Hugos because I already had a list of SF award winners, and didn't feel like handing out too much homework.

[paritoshuttam]

Hi,

Do we always say "were" in a construction like "If I were to become the President"? Is using "was" instead of "were" allowed? What are the grammar rules about this? Do we go by the ear or what?

Does the same apply to this:

He looked at me as if he were doing me a favour.

Or is it

He looked at me as he was doing me a favour.

Thanks,
Paritosh.

[paritoshuttam]

Sorry, typo in the second part of my post (missed an if):

He looked at me as if he were doing me a favour.

Or is it

He looked at me as if he was doing me a favour.

- Paritosh.

[James D Macdonald]

"Were" is the subjunctive -- it expresses conditions or events that the speaker wants to happen, hopes to happen, or imagines happening. Usually you find "if" preceding "were."

"The boss would be happy if you were there."

You can use "was" informally or in dialog.

[maestrowork]

As I understand, "were" is to be used for something that you'd wish to happen, or something that is highly improbable or unlikely: if I were the President, I would... Also, if you're writing in past tense, it helps to distinguish the subjunctive from normal clause.

This rule is rather relaxed now in modern literature and causual writing (including dialog -- "if I were" just sounds rather stilted sometimes). In your case, "was" would be correct:

"He looked at me as if he was doing me a favor" -- he MIGHT very well be really doing you a favor. Here, "as if" is used in the manner of "like."

"He looked at me as if I were an alien monster" -- use "were" because it's improbably and unlikely.

[JuliePgh]

I have a scene which ends with one character leaving instructions for how the capture of another is to be handled. The instructions are ambiguous, hinting of possible danger. I'm not sure if this a hook. That danger never comes about due to other turns of events.

Is it misleading and cheating the reader to end the scene with this sense of impending danger and never produce the danger (at least not from this source)? Is it okay for the purpose of building a sense of suspense?

[ChunkyC]

If this 'hint of possible danger' was one of a number of potential outcomes, and one of the other outcomes is shown, then I'd say you are safe in leaving it as is.

In fact, that's a good thing; like ending a chapter with the hero confronting a fork in the road and waiting until the next chapter to show the reader which fork the hero took.

However, if this 'dangles', remains unresolved, then it is likely the reader might feel cheated.

[maestrowork]

A "hint" of danger would be a nice hook.

I wonder though, why not present the readers with a real danger? You should turns of events prevent that from happening. I'm just wondering, would the danger make it more dramatic or interesting?

At any rate, be careful to set up false expectations, then leave your readers hanging. It's fine if you only hint at possible outcomes. It's another if you deliberately mislead them.

[gp101]

Hoping some of the published writers on this thread have a better idea than me. What would be considered too short a word count for a novel; maybe relegating it to a novella? More specifically, what would be acceptable parameters for a crime novel? 50,000 words on the short end to 200,000 words on the long end for instance?

[James D Macdonald]

Technically, a novel is a book-length work of realistic prose fiction.

What exactly "book-length" is, now ... if you're asking for a definition, it's anything above 40,000 words. If you're asking, "What's a commercial length?" think about 60,000 words. If you're asking, "Is 200,000 words too long?" the answer is maybe -- for a first time author. Or maybe not, if they're all exactly the right words.

Your first goal is to have the right words, and only the right words, in your book. After that figure out whether it's a commercial length and what category to put it in.

Here, try this: Go to a bookstore or library, find some recent crime novels, and count the words. (To count the words: take five random pages. Count the individual words on them. Divide by five, then multiply by the total number of pages in the book.)

[Fresie]

Your first goal is to have the right words, and only the right words, in your book. After that figure out whether it's a commercial length and what category to put it in.

And what does one do if one sees that one's book doesn't exactly fit any particular category? A few years ago, I came across Marshall's Plan for Novel Writing and there he speaks at length how important it is to know your market niche before you start working on your book. Well, in my non-fiction writing I'm a marketing freak and go out of my way to give the editor exactly what he/she wants, but I look at this "book-length" project of mine and realise it doesn't actually fit any category (as in, "urban fantasy", "dark fantasy", "epic fantasy", etc etc).

What's one got to do? The bloody book just seems to be in a category of its own! :shrug What am I doing wrong?

Is it a sign of being an amateur? Normally, when I learn to do something, I aim to either do it professionally or not to do it at all. :gone

Thank you!

[aka eraser]

I'd recommend just writing the book and worrying about the labeling later. Seems there's a common denominator in the categories you say it doesn't fit and that's fantasy.

If it's a fantasy of some sort it'll find a home there. Those racks are big in the stores I frequent; should be room for one more. ;)

[reph]

"He looked at me as if he was doing me a favor" -- he MIGHT very well be really doing you a favor. Here, "as if" is used in the manner of "like."

Maestro, no! "He looked at me as if he were doing me a favor" is correct. The "as if" clause describes a condition contrary to fact. You need the subjunctive here. "Like" would be ungrammatical in that sentence, too.

Only if you wanted to preserve the ungrammatical speech style of the first-person narrator would you use "was" and "like."

[maestrowork]

Reph, normally it is true, and one should use a subjuctive when using the "if" clause (or "as if"). But this rule has been relaxed in recent times -- and most consider subjuctives archaic.

if clauses—the traditional rules. According to traditional rules, you use the subjunctive to describe an occurrence that you have presupposed to be contrary to fact: if I were ten years younger, if America were still a British Colony. The verb in the main clause of these sentences must then contain the verb would or (less frequently) should: If I were ten years younger, I would consider entering the marathon. If America were still a British colony, we would all be drinking tea in the afternoon. When the situation described by the if clause is not presupposed to be false, however, that clause must contain an indicative verb. The form of verb in the main clause will depend on your intended meaning: If Hamlet was really written by Marlowe, as many have argued, then we have underestimated Marlowe’s genius. If Kevin was out all day, then it makes sense that he couldn’t answer the phone.

if clauses—the reality. In practice, of course, many people ignore the rules. In fact, over the last 200 years even well-respected writers have tended to use the indicative was where the traditional rule would require the subjunctive were. A usage such as If I was the only boy in the world may break the rules, but it sounds perfectly natural.

[JuliePgh]

Does anyone here ever use conjoining contradictory terms (as in `deafening silence')? Should they be avoided at all costs, used sparingly, or depends on personal style?

[ChunkyC]

I'd say use sparingly, too much and the surprise and impact of such a juxtaposition would be lost. I also would strive for something as original as possible. Your example illustrates the concept perfectly, but is so common it no longer has the desired effect.

[arrowqueen]

Och, I quite like the odd oxymoron.

[maestrowork]

sparingly for effects... also because they're usually cliche (such as "deafening silence"). Try something else (such as "thundering silence"). :b

[James D Macdonald]

I look at this "book-length" project of mine and realise it doesn't actually fit any category ...

If you have a compelling story compellingly told, what exact category it fits into won't matter ... let the editors and the marketing people at the publishing house figure out what kind of cover to put on it.

Remember that Fritz Leiber's <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812512960/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Conjure Wife</A> has been marketed as fantasy, science fiction, horror, and romance at various times its publishing history.

Marketing categories -- if your story is good enough they'll invent a marketing category just for you.

[Pthom]

"He looked at me as if he was doing me a favor" -- he MIGHT very well be really doing you a favor. Here, "as if" is used in the manner of "like."
It might be better in this case to use "as though". "Like" is the wrong word, and the wrong idea. "If" connotes the possibility that something else is possible.

Better yet, recast the whole damn sentence. :LOL

[HConn]

Conjure Wife (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812512960/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)=Wonderful book.

[reph]

Maestro, I agree with everything in that quotation of yours, and I still say "He looked at me as if he were doing me a favor" is the way to go if you want to write a grammatical sentence. (Why might you want an ungrammatical one? To stay in a character's voice, as mentioned.) "As if" plays by different rules than "if."

"As if" and "as though" are interchangeable. "As though" sounds more formal; it isn't used so much nowadays.

[paritoshuttam]

Thanks. Glad to know the answer to my question wasn't trivial :) I thought I was missing out on some basic grammar rule. Does help to know that it isn't a black-and-white thing.

[maestrowork]

Reph, you and the other grammar gods and goddesses are absolutely right. :-)

I'm just pointing out that many grammatical rules are relaxed in today's literary world. For example, subjunctives are sometimes viewed as archaic and unnatural to many writers. Other things are now considered "stylistic choices," such as ending a sentence with a preposition, etc.

Our language is a living thing. Sometimes I tell people, do what "sounds" right to your ears. Especially true when you're writing dialogues or first person narrative.

[jeffspock]

Just had a discussion yesterday with a published author (six SF novels from Bantam).

The author said that the publisher was getting stricter with word counts, and would not accept anything over 120k (while in the past up to 150k was okay). A second author, with published short stories in the best pro markets (also SF), said they were given the same limits for their first novel (from TOR).

In both cases they said it was a pure ROI question--publishers had a hard time making profit on books over 120k.

So, while there are no hard and fast rules, from what little I know 120k seems to be a nice number to shoot for.

[Kate Nepveu]

More specifically, I believe it's a matter of the big chains saying "we will not stock books by non-mega-sellers with prices over $24.95." And length of the book is a factor in pricing.

(Source: various editors on a Boskone panel this year; Charlie Stross just now over on Usenet.)

Mind you, if you have a really great long book, what some places will do (Tor has done this, for instance) is just split it in two. This is mildly controversial among readers, I should add.

Anyway, this is a fairly recent development and the waters may change again, but fwiw.

[James D Macdonald]

As Kate mentioned, the chains have noticed real reader reluctance to buy a book by someone they've never heard of that's priced over around $25 (and reluctance among readers to buy books priced above $28 even among authors they've heard of and like).

When that's combined with the philosophy that some of the majors have expressed that "If it's worth publishing, it's worth publishing in hardcover," you can see a hit to the mega-doorstop novels.

That being said -- you need exactly as many words as it takes to tell your story. If you're over 120,000 words, and every one of them is a necessary word, go with that.

[gp101]

I've heard that I should read various authors and see how they work their magic (which I've done). I've also heard that emulating someone else's style initially, and working it till you find your own style and voice is helpful (have also done). I don't know of any way in which I can tell if my writing has evolved enough and is different enough from the writers I admire/study/emulate, and unless my beta readers have read those same writers, they won't be able to tell me how similar my style is to those writers either.

Short of hearing it from an agent, publisher, or (worst case) book critic, how can you figure out if you've finally stopped emulating and discovered your own voice? When does emulating someone else start becoming "influenced by" and stop becoming "copied"? One of the critics blurbs at the beginning of one of my favorite writer's books says something to the effect that his writing style is often copied, never equalled.

I don't want to be one of the copiers referred to there.

Do agents and publishers prefer a familiar but still unique voice, or something more of a dead-on copy of a current author's voice and style?

[evanaharris]

Well, most of the time it's not even a matter of TRYING to emulate, it's more of a matter of "you are what you eat". Read a lot of Hemingway, and you're going to start writing terse, short sentences. Read a lot of Lovecraft and it's going to get byzantine, and on and on.

I'm the same way with fiction vs. nonfiction. I read almost exclusively fiction because when I read nonfiction all I want to do is write essays and movie reviews and polemics.

The answer to "finding your style" is to read, a lot, from lots of different authors, and to write, a lot, and just roll with the punches. Eventually, you'll settle down into something that's comfortable, and I daresay that you won't have a hand in it at all.

[madeya ru]

I've also heard that style is something that eventually just comes your way, like evan said, "you won't have a hand it in." You'll see it when it happens. And you'll love it when it happens.

[JoannaC]

Hi everyone

Sorry to change the topic on you, but...:-)

It seems my new story is falling into the same trap the first one fell into about being nothing but conversations. There is plot, and things are happening, but it all seems to want to be conversations. I tried to have people do things, I am even at a fairly actiony part where this is a giant storm, but basically what happened was two of the characters got stranded by the storm, and they had a conversation. Then one of them left to go find some other people who were also trapped by the storm. He ran into another character who we have not seen for a dozen or so pages, and he had a conversation with him while they went looking for the guy's brother. Then they find the brother (along with the sister of the character they just left) and have a conversation with him about why he ran off and what he did. Then they go back to the house and the two sisters have a catching up conversation...and it just goes on and on. Every time something happens, it involves two or three conversations. I think they are good conversations, and my main reader doesn't seem bored yet. But I really need to learn how to write a story that is not only conversations! Any help?

[HapiSofi]

Maestro said:"Reph, normally it is true, and one should use a subjuctive when using the "if" clause (or "as if&quot;) . But this rule has been relaxed in recent times -- and most consider subjuctives archaic."The hell it has been, and the hell we do -- meaning no disrespect to yourself. But if that were true, I'm sure I would have heard about it by now.

Also:"I'm just pointing out that many grammatical rules are relaxed in today's literary world. For example, subjunctives are sometimes viewed as archaic and unnatural to many writers. Other things are now considered "stylistic choices," such as ending a sentence with a preposition, etc."Ending a sentence with a preposition is not a "stylistic choice". I'm not sure anything is. But it was a legitimate grammatical construction long before Chaucer's great-granny had gone on her first date, and it's been legitimate ever since.

You can split infinitives, too.

[pianoman5]

I like Winston Churchill's rejoinder when he was criticised for ending a sentence with a preposition.

"From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put."

[JimMorcombe]

Uncle Jim

You've read widely, so I assume you've read a John Grisham Book or two. What do you think of his writing?

Doesn't he break a lot of the rules/suggestions you make?

" ...only words that reveal character, support the theme, and advance the plot belong in your novel..."

I get the feeling that if Grisham submitted the first few pages of on of his novels to you, you would tear it to shreds. He does too much stuff that doesn't advance the plot, introduces millions of names of characters that never get developed or even mentioned later, and so on.

And yet Grisham's stuff sells!

Nephew Jim

[LiamJackson]

Nephew Jim, good question. I would like pose a question to you. What kept you turning the pages of JG's books?

[Jules Hall]

I know that the last of Grisham's books I read (Runaway Jury) startled me; the POV was sloppily handled (there was a section which I thought was from one character's POV that suddenly started talking about things that only made sense from another's perspective), and I think there were other "errors", too. But I think most of the text of the book did support the characters & plot well. I was left without an overwhelming sense of there being a theme, but then I often don't notice theme so I'm not sure how well he supported that. Yet, I think, above all, he told a good story.

[Fresie]

Thank you so much, Uncle Jim and Eraser! You won't believe how much your support meant to me. I feel as if my "wings" were stuck in something and now I'm finally free to write what I want without constantly feeling this internal editor peeking from behind my back.

Fritz Leiber's Conjure Wife has been marketed as fantasy, science fiction, horror, and romance at various times its publishing history.

That's also great news. I feel so much better now!!

Thank you!

[detante]

Hello, all. Long time lurker, first time poster . . .


Joanna,

It sounds like you are comfortable writing dialogue. Maybe too comfortable. Try breaking out of that comfort zone by writing an entire scene without a single conversation. Temporarily pop the quotation mark key off of your keyboard, if necessary. :lol Then try writing a few scenes that mix dialogue with action. Hope that helps.

Best wishes,
Jen

p.s. Thanks to everyone that has contributed to the thread. Lots of useful lessons buried in these 97 pages.

[HapiSofi]

PianoMan, you've gotten hold of one of the erroneous versions of that story that are in circulation. This is from the alt.usage.english FAQ:Winston Churchill was editing a proof of one of his books, when he noticed that an editor had clumsily rearranged one of Churchill's sentences so that it wouldn't end with a preposition. Churchill scribbled in the margin, "This is the sort of English up with which I will not put."

[Euan Harvey]

>The hell it has been, and the hell we do -- meaning no disrespect to yourself. But if that were true, I'm sure I would have heard about it by now.

www.google.com/search?hl=...tnG=Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=%22If+it+was+true%22&btnG=Search)

Granted, not all of them are subjunctive, but many of them are.

Cheers,

Euan

[James D Macdonald]

Oh, Ghod, not more grammar wars.

[gp101]

There any chance that some of the published writers on this thread could share several pages of their published stories in the SHARE YOUR WRITING section of these boards? I'm not greedy, just a few pages of a novel or short story that actually got printed, preferably the beginning, so the rest of us can see what works in your particular genres. I've already read some of Uncle Jim's stuff on these boards and through links (highly recommend it to those who haven't read him yet); would like to see some of the rest of ya'lls. Might even score a sale or two from us.

I'm sure a few know-it-all's will tell you what you did wrong in your writing--published or not--but it's for a good cause.

[gp101]

...and if you do post some of your material, could you notify us on this thread? I know, I'm asking a lot.

[James D Macdonald]

I've read two Grisham novels -- The Runaway Jury, and A Time to Kill.

Later on today I'll try to hit the library and grab a couple of Grisham's works, and play with a couple of pages here.

I'll also try to remember to give you my Fire Door Theory of Novels.

[maestrowork]

Instead of posting in SYW, why don't we simply buy their books? :-) Support your fellow authors and learn something from them at the same time. Also, I believe on Uncle Jim's site, you can view sample chapters of his books.

[Fresie]

There any chance that some of the published writers on this thread could share several pages of their published stories in the SHARE YOUR WRITING section of these boards? I'm not greedy, just a few pages of a novel or short story that actually got printed, preferably the beginning, so the rest of us can see what works in your particular genres.

That's exactly the reason why I visit Amazon.com so often: I read the first pages! Many books have this option when you can have a "peek" at their beginnings. Then, especially when you compare them to professional reviews and readers' opinions on the same page, and the number of stars and all that, you can get a pretty clear picture of what works for the industry.

(Not that the picture of my writing becomes any clearer from that :bang ... but it's a fun way to spend a bit of spare time on the Net.)

[Yeshanu]

... or try your local public library. They have books by our own Uncle Jim, Karen Ranney, James A. Ritchie, and more!

And if you're broke like me, it's all free! :snoopy

Just remember to take the books back on time...

[JuliePgh]

<a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/POTSEXPT.HTM" target="_new">The Price Of The Stars</a>

Jim,

I read the prologue to The Price Of The Stars online, and it sparked a question. How do you know when to use the character's name vs pronoun? In your prologue, sometimes you use 'Beka' and other times 'she'.

I read somewhere that if it is clear who's in the scene and there's only one woman, the first reference should use her name and then 'she' should be used to make for an easier read.

Do you alternate for sound, variety, or what?

Thank you.
(P.S. I loved the prologue. Can't wait to read the rest!)

[gp101]

"Instead of posting in SYW, why don't we simply buy their books?"

"That's exactly the reason why I visit Amazon.com so often: I read the first pages!"

"... or try your local public library"

Excellent suggestions. But I didn't know any of the published authors' names except for Jim's. I occasionally catch a first name, and even then I'm not sure if the person has anything in print.

Didn't think it would be a big deal to post a couple pages (not entire chapters or the full monty) with their names here for convenience sake. And a nice way to get people interested in their writing--capitalism at its finest. Jim is already on my list of authors to BUY once I catch up on my current reading.

"Karen Ranney, James A. Ritchie,"

...thanks, Yesh. Anymore names I can look up on Amazon?

[HConn]

gp, you should go to a bookstore and buy the books.

[James D Macdonald]

I pulled The Summons and The Street Lawyer out of the library today, and looked at A Time To Kill over at Barnes&Noble.

I defy anyone to read the first page of A Time to Kill and not go on to finish the first chapter -- I know I did, standing there in the bookstore.

I'll be looking at the other two books shortly, and maybe doing some retyping here.

Remember the master rule: Does it work?

<HR>

Sometimes later books by popular authors get sloppy, in some ways. Sometimes its that they aren't being edited as closely (that happens for all sorts of reasons -- if anyone ever hears me say "I want a no-editing clause in my next contract" you have my permission to come to my house and mock me in person). Sometimes the author has run out of the earlier fire, and is cruising.

Readers are more forgiving of authors who have shown them a good time in the past, and will work with them a bit longer and a bit harder.

<HR>

Oh -- here's <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/worldconskedjdm.htm" target="_new">my WorldCon schedule</a>.

[James D Macdonald]

Do you alternate for sound, variety, or what?

Variety, sentence rhythm, and to reinforce the character's name for the reader.

She'll spend an awful lot of the rest of the book in one disguise or another, using other names.

[JimMorcombe]

Uncle Jim

John Grisham's books really are page turners, but a lot of it reads like gossip. Just the same way you really need to know what your best friend's cousin's wife does when she is home alone, you really need to keep turning Grisham's pages.

I just finished reading "The Last Juror". At first I thought I was reading a novel about a murder trial. Then I thought I was reading about a parole. Then I thought I was reading about a mystery about who was knocking off the Jurors. Finally it was over and we knew who the culprit was...but the book kept going, and going, and going. There was lots of excitement in the book. There were lots of interesting details about the quirks and peculiarities of the town's citizens. I even learnt how to run a newspaper. But I really have no idea what the book was about.

I kept turning the pages just because it was always interesting. At the end of the book, I wondered why I had read it.

A while back, I read "Bleachers". Even worse. Lot of stuff about Football which I don't even understand, let alone have an interest in. After I finished it, I decided the book lacked any substance at all and that I would never read another of his books.

Yet I've read three more since then.

Is Grisham a case where Style makes up for lack of plot? Or is gossip a legitimate literary style?

Nephew Jim

[JimMorcombe]

Uncle Jim

Revisiting a subject already done to death...(Sorry)

I've forgotten the writer's name, but I'm sure everyone remembers the article about the writer despondent over her $80,000 advance when only 10,000 books were sold...

You put the Editor forth as the Readers representative.

If an editor buys a complete and utter piece of rubbish, puts a nice cover on it, makes sure page one is a real grabber, makes sure the back cover reads well, puts it number one on his lists and then advertises it like hell to the book wholesalers...

Wouldn't the book sell well, even if it was complete rubbish? Surely the quality of the book would simply mean that the writers second book would only sell three copies?

Nephew Jim

[evanaharris]

the article you requested:

archive.salon.com/books/f...ex_np.html (http://archive.salon.com/books/feature/2004/03/22/midlist_side/index_np.html)

(brief search on salon.com for "midlist")

[JimMorcombe]

His wife was opening the door. Susan grabbed her clothes, ran to the window and stepped out onto the balcony. A family of startled owls stared back at her.

What would people say if she was found she and Albert were secretly seeing each other?

“Silvia, Darling,” she heard Albert through the window. He sounded happy to see her. Susan wondered when he had become such a good actor.

“I demand you make a decision,” his wife screamed. “Do you want me or that cheap floozy you’ve been seeing?”

“Who?” hooted an owl on the balcony with her.

“Say it’s me,” Susan willed him. “Say its me you love.”

“Who?” another owl said.

“I’ve been meaning to tell you Darling,” he replied. “I’m leaving you for Patricia.”

“Who?” Susan heard herself scream.
“Who?” Inside the room she heard the indignant Silvia shout.
“Who?” Outside the window she heard a redundant owl.

[James D Macdonald]

Wouldn't the book sell well, even if it was complete rubbish?

It would -- perhaps. Readers are wiley creatures, and sometimes will leave everyone scratching their heads. The Bridges of Madison County?

More important, given that publishers have limited resources, why would the editor put a book she knows is complete rubbish number one on the list and advertise the heck out of it? Doesn't that editor have any good books? Are the other editors at that publishing house sitting on their thumbs?

A nice cover, yes. A good blurb, yes. Make it read as well as it can, of course. But if it's rubbish and the editor knows it ... the resources aren't going to be there for more.

[James D Macdonald]

The author said that the publisher was getting stricter with word counts, and would not accept anything over 120k (while in the past up to 150k was okay). A second author, with published short stories in the best pro markets (also SF), said they were given the same limits for their first novel (from TOR).

It's more likely that that was specific advice for specific authors, who may write fatter books than the story will support.

[Yeshanu]

It's more likely that that was specific advice for specific authors, who may write fatter books than the story will support.

Perhaps, but as a newbie with a fantasy novel to try and sell, it's a good thing to know that publishers will be more likely to publish it if the word count on the front page is less than 120,000.

[wwwatcher]

I'm about 5 screens behind in reading this thread (computer challenges!) so my apologies if this has been covered.

Jim and others:

Do you have a list of final things you check before submitting a manuscript? I would guess most writers have at least one area that they know they have to check at the end and I'm trying to find any areas that beta readers and I may have missed.

Things that occur to me are:

are characters real?
is plot believable?
spelling and grammar?
are sentences varied?
do any words stand out?
is everything clear?
does the story flow?
(and with me) is there enough narration?
(and) have I described the characters enough?


Thanks,
Faye

P.S. I'm getting (published) beta writers who are suggesting that there must be a home for one of my stories, so I feel like I'm getting there.

[JuliePgh]

Faye,

The following list may help you. It's from the Victoria Crayne site <a href="http://www.crayne.com/howcrit.html" target="_new">How to Critique Fiction</a>
<ol>
<li>Opening
<ol>
<li>Do the first few sentences or paragraphs of the story grab your attention? Do they present the protagonist's main problem? Remember how you judge a book or story when you first see it in a bookstore. Don't we often base our decision to buy or not buy upon those first few sentences? Did this author grab your attention fast enough?
</ol>

<li>Conflict

<ol>
<li>By conflict, I do not mean lots of slam-bam action. Conflict is "The mental or moral struggle caused by incompatible desires and aims. That is the kind of conflict that makes stories vitally alive." - Ben Bova in "The Craft of Writing Science Fiction That Sells".


<li>Is there emotional conflict WITHIN the main character? Between the main characters? Emotional conflict is part of what gets readers interested. For example: love vs. loyalty; greed vs. duty; fear vs. desire; revenge vs. self-doubt.


<li>Are there too many or not enough conflicts?

<li>"The writer's job is to be a troublemaker! Stir up as many levels of conflict and problems for your protagonist (hero) as you can. Let one set of problems grow out of another. And never, never, never solve a problem until you've raised at least two more. It is the unsolved problems that form the chain of promises that keeps the reader interested." - Ben Bova.

Until the end, of course, when all the conflicts should be resolved.


<li>Is there enough conflict between the characters? Is it expressed through action, dialogue, attitudes, or values? Were the characters sufficiently contrasted? Or did they seem to be totally satisfied with their roles? Did they have the potential to transform each other?
</ol>

<li>Plot

<ol>
<li>Was the main plot clear and believable?


<li>Did the main character have a clearly defined problem to solve? Did you feel by the end of the piece that this problem was solved or did the character become resolved to live with it?


<li>Were you able to determine the time and place of the story quickly enough?


<li>Did the story start at the right place? Did it end at the right place in the plot?


<li>Are there scenes which do not seem to further the plot?


<li>Were there too many flashbacks, which broke your attention?


<li>If the piece was a short story, were there too many subplots? If the piece was a novel, could it be improved by more attention to the subplots or have more subplots? Conversely, does it have too many subplots and you got confused about what was happening?


<li>Was every subplot useful? Did it add to the overall story or did the author seem to stick it in just for complexity?

<li>Pacing: Did the plot/subplots move fast enough to keep the reader's attention?


<li>Resolution of conflict: Did the conflict and tension in the plots and subplots come to some reasonable ending? Or did the author leave us hanging, wondering what happened? When you finished, were there things that you still felt needed to be explained?

If the author did leave some conflict unresolved, did they indicate somewhere that future stories are pending?
</ol>


<li>Setting

<ol>
<li>Is there enough description of the background in the story to paint a picture that seems real enough for the reader? Did you feel that you were transported to 'that time or place'?


<li>Was there too much description so modern readers might tend to become bored? Was the description written with cliches?


<li>Did the author use good enough names for people, places, and things? Names help set the tone for a story. Where some names of people hard to keep track of? Did some names seem inconsistent with the character? Were the names too stereotypical?

"The reader would have a tough time imagining a two-fisted hero named Elmer Small, but James Retief comes across just fine as a hero in Keith Laumer's stories. Similarly, Bubbles La Toure is hardly the name of a saintly nun, whereas Modesty Blaise is a sexy and intriguing name for a female counterpart of James Bond." - Ben Bova.


<li>Did the author convince you that people in that time or place would behave that way?


<li>Is the timing and order of events in the story consistent? For example, did John drive his new car on his vacation in chapter six but it wasn't until chapter ten that he bought it?

</ol>

<li>Characterization

<ol>
<li>Did the people seem real? Or were the main characters stereotypes or one-dimensional cardboard characters?


<li>Were the facts about the characters accurate and consistent?

"It's very important in building characters to make sure your 'facts' are accurate and consistent. If you mention in chapter two that your sister's birth sign is Leo, and then in chapter twelve, you have her celebrating her birthday during a snowfall (unless she lives at the north pole [or in the southern hemisphere]), credibility will be lost. Even if the reader doesn't key in on exactly 'what' is wrong with the picture, he/she will have a disquieting sense that 'something' is." - Debra Littlejohn Shinder


<li>People do not exist in a vacuum. They have family, friends, a job, worries, ambitions, etc. Did you get a sense of enough of these, but not too much, for the main characters?


<li>Did you get a good picture of the culture, historical period, location, and occupation of the main character?


<li>Did you get enough of a sense of paradoxes within the character? Enough of their emotions, attitudes, values?


<li>Backstory: where you distracted by too much background information of a character at one time? Did the author seem to dump a lot of information on the background of a character in one or two long speeches, or did we learn about that character here and there in smaller pieces?


<li>Did the protagonist undergo some change in the story?


<li>Could the story have been improved by adding more details of the protagonist's or another character's reputation; stereotyped beliefs; their network of relations to other people; habits and patterns; talents and abilities; tastes and preferences; or physical description of their body?


<li>Does each chapter/page have enough sensory description? Can the reader easily sense what is happening physically to the main character? Were there enough words of sight, sound, touch, smell, or taste?


<li>If the story used a person as the antagonist (villain), did they seem real too? Or did they seem so evil or one-sided that they were more like ideal villains? Did they have some redeeming qualities too? Did the villain seem to be a hero in their own mind?


<li>Every reader has their own taste in how much characterization they like. Did this story have too little or too much characterization for you?

</ol>

<li>Dialogue

<ol>

<li>Did the words from the mouths of the people in the story seem consistent with their personalities?


<li>Was there too much or not enough dialogue, in your opinion? Usually writers err on the side of not enough dialogue.


<li>Did any character tend to talk in long monologues?


<li>Were you able to sense the conflict, attitudes, and intentions of each character in their dialogue without the author telling you of these directly?


<li>Were you able to detect any exchange of power that is sexual, physical, political, or social?


<li>Did the dialogue seem easy to speak? Can you 'hear' it? If it sounds unusual, you might suggest that the writer try reading it aloud.


<li>Does the dialogue seem TOO MUCH like normal speech, with too many incomplete sentences, pauses, restarts, profanity, cliches, etc. that it was distracting?


<li>Did the author use dialect that was too heavy, making it difficult to read?


<li>Does each character have their own speech rhythm, accent (if necessary), vocabulary, and even length of sentences?


<li>In an exchange of conversation, can you easily tell who is speaking if you didn't have their names or gender attached to their sentences?


</ol>
<li>Point of View

<ol>
<li>Was a given chapter or section written from one person's point of view? Are there too many points of view in the story?


<li>Did the story skip around between the first person or third person point of view (POV)? Were the changes in POV signaled clearly? There is nothing inherently wrong in changing POV, as long as it is not done too often.


<li>If the story was written in the third person POV, as most stories are, did the story stick with the omniscient (all knowing) POV, use a limited POV (where we don't know everyone's motives except by clues from their words or actions), or did the author mix the two? Did the author's choice seem right to you?

"The key point is to get the reader to engage in a contract in which the writer offers: 'I'm not going to show you everything in the character's head because that would spoil the story for you. Instead, I will reveal things as we go along but I promise that I won't cheat.'" - Trevor Lawrence


<li>When the POV changed, were you able to quickly sense who the new viewpoint was from?

</ol>

<li>Show versus tell
<ol>


<li>When in the POV of a character, did the author describe what his/her senses showed, e.g., sight, sound, smell, touch, taste? Or did the author just tell you the dinner was very good?


<li>Did the author describe exactly how the people acted?


<li>Was there too much abstract language where specific details would have made a greater impact on the reader?


<li>Was there too many instances of words like "very", "much", "really", "great", or "nice" when a more detailed description would have been more colorful?


<li>Did we get the chance to interpret what the characters were feeling or did the author just tell us directly? For example, I once wrote: "Two weeks later, after more hours than he cared to remember, Jet felt very, very tired" and let it go at that and missed the opportunity to describe his fatigue instead.

</ol>

<li>Format of the text
<ol>
<li>Was it easy to read or were the paragraphs too long or the lines too long (not enough margin)?

<li>Would it help to put blank lines between paragraphs? If the piece is to be read on a computer monitor, adding a blank line between paragraphs will make it much easier for your critics to read. Note: when you submit the final version to print publishers, it is best to adhere to their manuscript format (no blank lines between paragraphs).
</ol>

<li>Grammar and spelling
<ol>


<li>Was the English readable? Were there too many grammatical errors, misuse of punctuation, run-on sentences, etc.?


<li>Did you point out any typos or misspelling? How many times have you missed that in your writing because you passed over it without seeing it? Were there so many such errors that they made reading the piece difficult for you?


<li>Did the author use too many exclamation points (one of my weaknesses)?


<li>Where there any cliches in the narrative? For example, I once wrote "fruits of mother nature" and "thoughts burning in his mind", both of which are cliches. In dialogue cliches are okay if the character would speak that way.


<li>Did the author use melodrama? For instance, I once wrote: "With tears in her eyes and barely able to speak, the head nurse dialed the Chief of Staff. There would be a lot of crying tonight." Can't you just hear the violins in the background?


</ol>
<li>Style
<ol>
<li>You may wish to comment on the style the story was written in, e.g., humorous, wordy, sparse, literary, homespun, technical, etc.
</ol>
</ol>

[vrauls]

I think I'll skip the obligatory introduction where I thank Jim and everyone on the list and claim to have read every page (really, I did!). Instead I'll just go right to the question:

Jim:
"Let me tell you a true thing: if you have a talent for prose ficition [sic] (and most people don't -- I swear to you, most people don't), and you've practiced so that your talent is developed -- there are folks who will pay you cash money. You have a rare talent. You are one among a million. You deserve money for what you can do. Do not sell yourself short!"

What you have said here strikes me as one of the truest pieces of writing advice I’ve ever read.

In reading unpublished writing (which I am occasionally asked to do), it always seems painfully clear to me from the first pages who has talent and who doesn't. Does that reflect your experience as well? And, if so, how can I tell the same about my own writing?

I know I’ll be receiving “if your secret heart yearns to write fiction then you should write fiction come hell or high water” responses, but let’s be serious. I know plenty of people whose hearts yearn to write fiction and who do... but it’s still not good fiction.

[Editrx]

Uncle Jim is on the road right now -- he just stopped here for dinner and to be re-caffeinated (caffeine? who needs dinner!). He'll try to answer the board when he gets resettled at his destination, though he'll still be on and off a lot, as he has a great deal of non-board responsibilities right now.

He says, "Hi."

[James D Macdonald]

Oh, no! A typo! I shall die of shame. (And I shall also go back and edit that....)

In reading unpublished writing (which I am occasionally asked to do), it always seems painfully clear to me from the first pages who has talent and who doesn't.

To which I say: Sometimes. Sometimes someone who seemed totally hopeless returns some years later with something Really Good. You've heard how many pro writers have early works that they wince to re-read, who thank Ghod that the editors they sent 'em to rejected them. This too is true.

Yes, I've read unpublished stuff (a lot of it) that should stay unpublished, where I've said "This guy has talent." That's why the line in the rejection letter that says "send us your next" is a hopeful one.

It's also true that judging your own work is difficult, and knowing if you have talent is darn-near impossible. (Have I mentioned how many Big Name Pros have "Imposter Syndrome"?)

Here's how to tell if you are good enough for someone to offer you money:

a) Someone offers you money.

Before then, if you're unsure about submitting your work:

b) Your beta readers ask you if you have anything else for them to read.

Better still:

c) Friends of your beta readers ask if you have anything else for them to read.

[James D Macdonald]

Jim and others:

Do you have a list of final things you check before submitting a manuscript?

I check to make sure all the pages are there and nothing horrible has happened to the formatting (like chapter twenty-two being printed in 8-point Garish, and everything from page 403 to the end underlined). Sometimes the running headers get screwed up in entertaining ways.

By the time I submit a manuscript I've read it so often I'm sick of it. Darn-near have it memorized. And how it feels to me is boring.

Really, read The Unstrung Harp (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0151004358/ref=nosim/madhousemanor). That'll tell you the truth.

But I can tell you a funny story.

As some of you may know, I write with my wife. And as others of you know, we live in far northern New Hampshire.

There we were. We'd finished Starpilot's Grave (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812517059/ref=nosim/madhousemanor) (a fine book; everyone should buy a dozen -- they make excellent gifts).

It was all printed out, tidily boxed, all's well. We were driving down to New York to spend the night at my mother's house, then take the train into New York City to meet our editor for lunch (and when editors take authors to expense-account lunches, it's worth the drive from far northern New Hampshire). Besides, the deadline was the next day (nothing like cutting it close).

And as we drove out of town, I turned to my wife and casually said, "You know, the middle doesn't work."

"Arrrghhhh!" she agreed with me.

Fortunately we had the novel on disk with us, and the computer with us, and the printer with us. (These were letter-quality dot-matrix days ... show of hands, kiddies, do you remember them?)

By the time we reached New York some seven hours later, we'd sort-of figured out what to do ... add a space battle. To reveal character, advance the plot, and support the theme.

It wasn't just adding one chapter, though. All the foreshadowing had to go into the earlier chapters, and all the results had to go into the subsequent chapters. It changed everything.

So.... first thing I did on arrival was sit down and write about twenty pages of original text, while Debra went through the first chapters and marked where the foreshadowing would have to go. Then while she was re-writing the new chapter and changing the first part of the book, I and my red-pencil were adding, deleting, and changing stuff in the back end of the book.

Now you all recall that dot matrix printers were slow in those days -- especially when you switched 'em to Letter Quality. Debra was still entering the changes in Chapter Two when we started Chapter One printing. And I figured how fast the pages were coming out, and calculated that at the current printing rate, we'd just catch our train.

This seemed to be working fairly well, right up until the safety feature on the printer clicked in.

It seemed that if the print-head got too hot, the printer would pause until it cooled, to keep from burning out the printer. It was August, a hot sticky night in August. And the safety feature shut down the printer. At that moment, we didn't care about the darned print head -- we could get a new printer if this one burned out -- what we didn't have was time.

Taking the lid off the printer so it wouldn't trap heat didn't help -- they had a cute little safety interlock to keep the printer from working while the lid was off.

Which is how that printer wound up with its lid off, with a paperclip jammed into the safety interlock, and a fan blowing at the print head.

We made the train (though I spent the trip into the city pulling the ears off the paper -- that was in the day of fan-fold sproket-drive computer paper). I noticed one typo on the way, corrected it with pen, and continued. The edges of the paper went into a wastebasket at Grand Central.

But we made it.

Well, I thought it was a funny story, anyway....

[Fresie]

a fan blowing at the print head

A hair dryer! You should have used a hair dryer! :D Mind you, I can't remember any more if there were hand hair dryers at the time of dot-matrix printers and fan-fold paper (yes, I remember them, it was the same time as I went to "computer programming courses" at high school -- the said "computers" were red boxes as big as a room and were fed programs on what looked like oversized index cards...)

Heartbreaking story. :clap

[James D Macdonald]

A serious answer to the question every writer gets asked:

"Where do you get your ideas?"

The answer is:

I'm the sort of person who gets ideas. Lots of them. If you don't have ideas popping into your head all the darn time, perhaps a career as a professional writer isn't for you.

[Andrew Jameson]

In reading unpublished writing (which I am occasionally asked to do), it always seems painfully clear to me from the first pages who has talent and who doesn't. Does that reflect your experience as well? And, if so, how can I tell the same about my own writing?This piques my interest. What is it that untalented writers seem to lack? Is that something that you can define -- whether a writer has "it", I mean -- or is it like pornography, where you just know it when you see it? (I'm *not* trying to apply a go/no go test to my own writing or anything, I'm just curious if there's some recognizable, definable, articulatable line that seperates talented and untalented writers).

[maestrowork]

The problem isn't getting ideas. The problem is sorting through them and knowing which ones have potential, or knowing which ones are short stories and which could be fleshed out to a full-length novel. Or trying to stock them away and not listen to those "voices" in your head while you're trying to finish the WIP.

[James D Macdonald]

What is it that untalented writers seem to lack?

Think of it as dating the Muse.

Some guys take the Muse out, and most of the evening is spent in painful silence. The guy delivers the Muse back to her apartment, they shake hands, and that's that.

Some guys take the Muse out, things get hot and heavy in the back seat of the car for a while, she gives him a passionate kiss at her apartment door, then the door slams and she never returns his phone calls.

Some guys wake up the next morning, walk into the kitchen and find a chick wearing nothing but one of his shirts. She's got a happy smile on her face. She's making pancakes.

"Who are you?" the guy asks.

"I'm the Muse," she replies. "Don't you remember last night?" She starts frying bacon.

----------

If you can recognize which relationship with the Muse the writer has, you can tell who has the talent.

Note: Just as guys can have different relationships with young ladies at different points in their lives, so too can writers have different relationships with the Muse at various points in their lives.

[James D Macdonald]

I get the feeling that if Grisham submitted the first few pages of on of his novels to you, you would tear it to shreds. He does too much stuff that doesn't advance the plot, introduces millions of names of characters that never get developed or even mentioned later, and so on.

<HR>

<BLOCKQUOTE>
The first two pages of The Summons (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0440241073/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/), by John Grisham:
[center]

[Kate Nepveu]

Uncle Jim: I now want to re-read _Starpilot's Grave_ and see if I can spot which battle was added!

Maybe when I get it and the third for my father-in-law; I bought him _The Price of the Stars_ as a birthday present and he loved it.

[vrauls]

Here's how to tell if you are good enough for someone to offer you money:

a) Someone offers you money.

I understand this. I write publishable nonfiction. I can say that because I have a book published and someone paid me money for it. You can buy it in your local bookstore.

b) Your beta readers ask you if you have anything else for them to read.

This is the hard part for me. I know another writer and we read each other's work. She's terrifyingly talented. I can not put her work down. I can't even read it critically because I'm so caught up in the story. All I want to do is turn, turn, turn the pages to find out what happens. That's talent.

She reads my work and tells me that I write like a technical writer (which I was for many years). That doesn't sound like talent. Still, when I've submitted snippets to crit. boards I don't get the echoing silence that marks the truly terrible. I get real feedback, which means it's at least readable.

Oh, and thanks for replying when it's obvious that you're very busy with real life.

[Yeshanu]

It came by mail, regular postage, the old-fashioned way since the Judge was almost eighty and distrusted modern devices. Forget e-mail and even faxes. He didn't use an answering machine and had never been fond of the telephone.

I know this guy! He's still got a rotary dial telephone, too... :grin

I think that's one of the main hallmarks of good fiction -- characters you can relate to. Two sentences, and I already want to read this book about a guy who's just like someone I know.

[macalicious731]

A serious answer to the question every writer gets asked:

"Where do you get your ideas?"

The answer is:

I'm the sort of person who gets ideas. Lots of them. If you don't have ideas popping into your head all the darn time, perhaps a career as a professional writer isn't for you.

Jim, I've found another answer also fitting for this question. It's down below, on my signature.

[JuliePgh]

Please help! I'm confused and stuck.

In my first chapter, three of my main characters meet. I'll call them Tom (major), Larry (minor) and Karen (major). I alternate POV between Karen and Tom with breaks. The circumstances do not allow for Tom's name to be revealed to Karen at this point. Is it correct to say that when I'm writing from Karen's POV, I can't use Tom's name in narrative passages because she doesn't know his name yet? And if so, how do I refer to him? I can't simply use male pronouns due to the presence of a second man.

[Yeshanu]

When you're writing from Karen's point of view, the reader should know what Karen knows. She doesn't know his name, so don't use it.

How does Karen refer to him in her thoughts? That's the term you should use.

[macalicious731]

Julie, I'm not an expert. So these are suggestions to be taken with a grain of salt.

Perhaps you can attribute some kind of 'nickname' to the other man. Did you read _The Princess Bride_? All the characters know Westley as 'the man in black' before his identity is revealed.

Or - rethink your POV all together. It sounds like it isn't working very well right now, so consider picking one of the characters' POVs and work from that one. Depending on your setup, it might also save the reader from confusion.

[maestrowork]

Constant POV shifts in one chapter sound risky to me. Can you think of a way to limit your POV to one person? If it's the minor character's POV through and through, it could be very interesting (one person doesn't know him and the other does... ).

[gp101]

I know I saw this addressed somewhat in some thread (I think Uncle Jim's), but I can't find it now and can't remember who originally brought it up. So I'll bring it up again:

What do you consider a new chapter? How would you distinguish between a new chapter and just a chapter break within the same chapter? I notice some writers don't use breaks within chapters at all, resulting in a lot of 2-pg chapters in a book of 90+ chapters but barely 250 pgs. Then I read other novels where the minimum number of pages for a chapter is ten. Studying published writers here isn't helping.

I've read that you should continue a chapter as long as a certain scene is being continued, but I've read novels where different scenes (involving the same characters, not intercut scenes where different characters do different things simultaneously) go on within the same chapter.

I normally create breaks within a chapter for POV switches, and for action taking place elsewhere simutaneous to the action I've just written. Gets a little disconcerting trying to figure out where some chapters should end--I don't want chapters too long or too short, and I want them varied in length. Too much to ask?

[James D Macdonald]

Yes, this was brought up early on, and the answer is: Author's Choice.

For me, a chapter break happens at a natural break in time/place/character/action that's more than a line break, less than a Part.

For me, I try to arrange things so that those natural breaks happen every ten to twenty pages.

For me, the end of a chapter has a miniature climax, and a cliffhanger, that points to the start of the next chapter.

For you ... maybe something different.

[paritoshuttam]

Hi,

Came across some "novel-writing" software while browsing the net. Thank goodness it doesn't write your novel for you, but it is supposed to help by keeping track of your character details, sections, one-line summaries of scenes or chapters, etc. I guess it simply replaces the traditional story-cards and notes we use to organise the novel. Has anybody here used such software and found it useful? It's not too pricey: about $50. Any comments?

Thanks,
Paritosh.

[paritoshuttam]

"The Magic of newnovelist is that it doesn't feel as if you're writing a book."

The above quote on that site put me off. If something makes you feel you are not writing a book when you are... is it good? I found it an ambiguous advertisement for the software :)

- Paritosh.

[Yeshanu]

Paritosh,

I don't know about that advertisement -- I like it when it feels like I'm writing a book precisely because I am writing a book. :grin

What I think they meant is something like, "This program helps you believe you can finally get to 'THE END'."

Unless they're aiming the software at the vast hoard of people out there who say, "I could write a novel, if only..."

In which case, you're probably just as well off without it. Except you'll still have your $50. (If that's peanuts to you, please send it to me... :b )

[James D Macdonald]

Imagine the look of surprise on my face when I found that AW regular HapiSofi's comments on WorldCon (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessage?topicID=438.topic) were picked up by my second-favorite hangout, <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005451.html#005451" target="_new">Making Light</a>, a literary Blog, as well as being commented and expanded upon in a couple of <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/sartorias/31706.html" target="_new">Live</a> <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/msagara/8046.html" target="_new">Journals</a>.

Since I'm going to <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/worldconskedjdm.htm" target="_new">be at WorldCon</a> myself, all I can say is "right on," and "read, learn, and inwardly digest."

[HapiSofi]

Jim Morcombe asked:"If an editor buys a complete and utter piece of rubbish, puts a nice cover on it, makes sure page one is a real grabber, makes sure the back cover reads well, puts it number one on his lists and then advertises it like hell to the book wholesalers...Wouldn't the book sell well, even if it was complete rubbish?"No.

[SFEley]

More to the point: books don't generally take off because the publishers advertise the hell out of them. How many people notice book ads? Books take off because the first few people to read them start telling all their friends, and then those friends start telling all their friends...

I believe that's the key to commercial blockbusting, far more than having a good story: writing a book that people will want to talk about. The notable current example is the success of The Da Vinci Code. The book was crap, but even I wanted to talk about it afterwards. (And look, I still am.)


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[maestrowork]

Some books (like Da Vinci Code) is poorly written but there's something about it that makes people want to read and talk about it: ideas and themes (religion, secret societies, conspiracy, etc. -- fascinating stuff), suspense, etc. It keeps you turning the pages even though the internal editor inside tells you, "this is crap." If Brown's a better writer, who knows how much better (if it's possible) the book is going to do (win the Pulitzer and Nobel, perhaps)?

Some people also enjoy simplicity: simple style, simple vocabulary, simple characters and plots (cliche). Just look at romance novels -- they're one cliche after another. But the books sell!

[gp101]

Maestro and SFEley:

not to stir up a hornet's nest, but why do you think Davinci Code is crap? Seriously... not trying to bait either of you. What made you think it was crap, and what do you think could have made the story a good read for you?

I ask because (obviously) millions of people liked Davinci Code, including myself, and though I know one book won't appeal to EVERYbody, I don't understand why someone would trash it as opposed to just "not enjoying" it. I can appreciate stories in genres I don't usually care for, but if well-written in some way, I can see why they worked in some way.

One of you mentioned things like simplistic or cliche, but what did you find simplistic or cliche that we don't find in most best-sellers? We all hear that every story's been told, it's just a matter of how they're told and how different characters react to recognizable conflicts ( I will give you that the English invalid in D.C. was a bit over-the-top, but still enjoyable).

I think the way the book opened made me want to read ahead, and the way most chapters (and even chapter breaks) ended with cliff-hangers or questions made me want to read more as well. Perhaps the background info (regarding art, codes, and Biblical conspiracies) put you off? That, I could understand--it's not everyone's cup o' tea. Myself, I ate it up.

Is it that either of you prefer more "literary" writing? I've enjoyed the couple of Toni Morrison novels I've read--very lyrical, almost poetic, and very moving. But a lot of the "literary" novels I find too heavy on description and internalization, and thin on pure entertainment. I'm not knocking it, just that Pulitzer Prize-winning doesn't necessarily equal unforgettable story. I'm willing to bet that ten years from now, considerably more people will remember Davinci Code than the Pulitzer winner from this year or last year.

I'd love to hear what Uncle Jim has to say, because it seems as if Dan Brown used every device Jim has been preaching about. Would either of you agree that Brown "followed the rules" as Jim has outlined?

Your thoughts?

Disclaimer: seriously, I'm not trying to bait you, just looking for your rationalization I guess.

[evanaharris]

It's such a fine line between just "not enjoying" something, and calling it crap, isn't it?

I enjoyed it the first time through, because it moved at such a breakneck pace that the very motion distracted you from all the really awkward prose, the cardboard characters, the stupid plot twists, etc, etc...

[btinternet]

I have to go with the Maestro, et al. A couple of the plot devices/historical bits are interesting, but the writing is, well, not exemplary. I certainly wouldn't have picked it as a Breakout novel (using the Don Maass definition). The characters are mostly flat, the plot itself isn't very interesting and there's just not a lot of depth. I was prepared to be wowed by this sensational novel and I felt like I'd picked up a bad Robert Ludlum or Trevanian knock-off. :shrug

BT

[maestrowork]

Well, I guess "crap" is a strong word. Just say my internal editor wanted to bring out the red pen! It was poorly written by our standards here (read Uncle Jim's thread about what we're talking about).

I don't really want to go into "Da Vinci Code" trashing here. Like I said, it was a good enough page-turner for me because of the premise/theme. I think people are fascinated by it not because of the plot (which is very thin and not very well delivered) but because of myths and revelation about Jesus and the Holy Grail, etc. Religous and historical myths are very interesting and powerful stuff. (I actually love the art, conspiracy, religion stuff. It's the writing itself--execution-- that bothered me).

If Brown posted his writing here, he would probably be criticized for:

- too much exposition
- too much info dumping. He constantly shows off his research knowledge by stopping the story or having the characterse talk for pages and pages, dumping info to readers
- the dialogue is stilted most of the time. His characters all sound the same: like the author.
- the plot is predictable. I knew who the villain was very early on and where the story was going.
- the writing style, while not horrible, is nothing to cheer about. It's usually very flat.
- the narration is coy just for suspense sake. The "I know something but I am not going to tell you now... read a few more chapters then I will tell you" thing. It's annoying. For example, very early on about the way the museum curator died -- the narrator and the characters know (they saw the picture, etc.) -- but nobody tells you... keep referring to "the horrific and bizarre way" but they just won't tell you until chapters later. That is not suspense. That is plain manipulative and annoying.
- and other little technical stuff

I think his "Angels & Demons" is a much better book.

[Gala]

Nice explanation, maestrowork.

I think I made to page 50 and didn't weep when the library called it due. Part of that context is that I read several books per week, and am very picky what I sacrifice sleep time for. I have to be in love or on assignment to complete a book.

Now, I read Siddhartha in 2 sittings recently, savoring each word.

A number of my writerly contacts enjoyed DaVinci, but most agree Angels is a more enjoyable read.

++++
Hey my post bumped this topic to page 100. Isn't there some rumor that at that page, the whole thing will be indexed or printed as a book?

<img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/image/posticons/pi_star.gif" />

[evanaharris]

And if I can add to that, Maestro, the DaVinci Code always struck me as a book that could've used just one more draft. I think that the agent or the editor one got a hold of it, saw that it was a whiz-bang premise ripe for a movie adaptation (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0382625/) and the bestseller list, and rushed it to production.

[SFEley]

gp101 wrote:
not to stir up a hornet's nest, but why do you think Davinci Code is crap? Seriously... not trying to bait either of you. What made you think it was crap, and what do you think could have made the story a good read for you?
The plot was predictable, the characters were caricatures, the dialogue was dumb, and the style was stilted.

Most of all, I thought it just wasn't very good at what it was trying to be. At its core it's a puzzle book, with a conceit we've all seen before in Scooby Doo. Some dead guy left behind his treasure, and thought it would be amusing to reveal it through a series of contrived puzzles. Our Heroes coincidentally have exactly what they need to puzzle their way through. This is a time-tested formula, but the puzzles were just too easy. I hate it when a character in a book is supposed to be an expert in his field, but I've got the answers two chapters before him.
Perhaps the background info (regarding art, codes, and Biblical conspiracies) put you off? That, I could understand--it's not everyone's cup o' tea. Myself, I ate it up.
No, actually, the idea and technical details were fine. The central idea's not original at all, and the religious conspiracy stuff's been done far better by better writers (Umberto Eco comes to mind -- Foucault's Pendulum is a very similar story Done Right). But the ideas were pretty cool. I just hated the "suspense" story they were hung on.
Is it that either of you prefer more "literary" writing?
No, I can get by on cheese just fine, if it's good cheese. The Da Vinci Code is not good cheese; it's completely bland Velveeta, which I suspect people buy and eat more for the Cracker Jack prizes embedded in the middle of it, but as long as they're eating it they convince themselves it tastes good.

This was a perfectly reasonable book to write. I just wish it had been written by a better writer than Dan Brown.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[James D Macdonald]

I'm thinking of starting a Son Of Uncle Jim thread, Real Soon Now.

But ...

Before we go there....

Uncle Jim Does an Info Dump.

Here's the first several pages from a short story ("Jenny Nettles" in <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/059025930X/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Bruce Coville's Book of Spine Tinglers</a>). Note how much info is dumped, and how little story is going on.

Now ... let's see how many people are still following at the bottom of this post, and who wants to see What Happens Next:

<hr>
<blockquote>
Jenny Nettles
by
Debra Doyle and James D. Macdonald

2600 words

[maestrowork]

Page #100.

Woo hoo.

:party :party :party

[Jules Hall]

I'm saving my celebrations for the 2,000th post, which will be the first on page 101.

[Pthom]

...it was a whiz-bang premise ripe for a movie adaptation...Maybe Goldsman will write a better screenplay than Brown did his novel. We can hope. Howard's reputation is at stake.

[macalicious731]

Nah, Howard's reputation was at stake when he filmed "How the Grinch Stole Christmas."

[Yeshanu]

Halfway through the voyage, the wind died...

... And?

Okay, I'll admit I skipped the info dump. Start with the last sentence (if that's where the story starts.)

Oh, the beginning was okay, with the men burying the figurehead, but then the wind died...

(Oh, and thanks for the example. It illustrates the problem [and the solution] perfectly to me.)

[gp101]

SFEley and Maestro:

fair enough. Liked the cheese metaphor.

Glad you two were stand-up and didn't take my honest questions as challenges or attacks as some might have.

[Paul W West]

Uncle Jim,

A few pages back, there was some discussion about the length of novels. In that disucssion you said, in effect, that the length really doesn't matter so long as the writing and the story is worth all the pages.

I'm writing young adult fiction. From what I've been told, YA publishers have very strict guidelines for first novels of no more than 70,000 words. My book is quite a bit longer than that, something around 110,000 words, but I feel I need that much to get the story told without compromising the story and short-changing the reader. My book isn't the typical teenie-bopper type novel, but more of a serious nature. It could even be considered mainstream in some ways, though it's primarily being written for a YA audience.

What is your opinion of my success in selling it considering the 70,000 word limit?

[HConn]

Okay, I'll admit I skipped the info dump

:smack

The whole point of posting the exposition was so you could see how it could be done. And you skipped it?

What impressed me about that exposition was that it was all framed in character and conflict, with an interesting (and unusual--to me) setting.

You can do anything, even open with backstory and "telling" if it works.

[reph]

"a Son Of Uncle Jim thread" -- That would be Cousin Somebody, right?

I'm on page 133 of this thread because I once changed a setting in My Control Center so pages would load faster.

[detante]

The whole point of posting the exposition was so you could see how it could be done. And you skipped it?

I only scanned it. Since the story seems to be about the ship, the information about the Scotsman seemed irrelavent. If it turns out to be important to the story, then there should be a good reason it was dumped in the beginning of the story. If there is a good reason, then I don't mind going back and re-reading the beginning to see what I missed.

The fast forward and rewind functions are much more efficient in book form than digital or video formats.

Jen

[maestrowork]

I tend to skip long expos too, even if it's very well written.

[Yeshanu]

The whole point of posting the exposition was so you could see how it could be done. And you skipped it?

I thought the whole point of posting was to show why it shouldn't be done... Even by a good writer.

I've gone back a couple of times and tried to re-read. I stop every time. It might be good info and it might even be needed later on, but it isn't relevant at the beginning, so it shouldn't be at the beginning.

But I'm waiting for UJ to reappear to tell us what lesson he thought we might learn from this particular example... ;)

[SRHowen]

my post was swallowed again--sheesh--is someone trying to tell me something?

Shawn

[maestrowork]

You must have exceeded your typing quotas for today.

:lol

[LiamJackson]

Agree with Maestro on the DaVinci Code. That book is a classic example of a good story overcoming poor writing. ("poor writing" being such a relative term.)

[gp101]

A few of you admit to skipping exposition from time to time. I do it myself when the writer starts losing me. With this in mind, how many of you have read anything by Elmore Leonard? In interviews he says he tries to avoid the "stuff" people skip over. I've read about six of his novels and can't ever remember skipping one word.

He's very stylized especially with dialogue and says the second his writing appears like he's trying to show off his writing, he deletes it. He's the least intrusive narrator I've ever read.

Any thought on his books or style?

[HConn]

I don't skip when I'm reading Elmore Leonard.

I'm more likely to skip to the end of a fight scene than I am an interesting, descriptive passage like the one above. I'm more likely to skip through an uneventful walk through a house, too.

[bolshywoman]

Well, I for one am keen to read more, Uncle Jim|

(Then again, having been raised on Kipling, Conrad and all the greats, I love nothing more than a nautical story!)

(Except perhaps stories about India and talking dogs. Got any of those, too?)