Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[Yeshanu]

Sorry folks, I hit the send button before I was quite finished.:o

I meant to say that being able to think out loud on the paper is helpful for me, and I didn't have to worry about correct order or other bothersome things like that.

Hope this makes more sense.

Ruth

[James D Macdonald]

That's wonderful, Yeshanu.

Once the words are on paper we can play with them.

Speaking of which, I'm planning to play with some words later on tonight. Everyone's invited.

[James D Macdonald]

Way back <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=1061&stop=1080" target="_new">here</a> we started writing a story, sort of on a bet, sort of on a dare. Sort of as a learning experience.

Now the story is written.

Shall we play with it some, at least the first scene?

I think we shall.

Remember, this is just black marks on a white page (or electrons making phosphors glow on a screen). It's not about the author, it's about the words.


<hr>

Discussion/rewriting of this story will take place in the <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessageRange?topicID=285.t opic&start=21&stop=40" target="_new">Share Your Work</a> forum.

[kdfrawg]

I do not type quickly, I have just written 105,000 words in five weeks. I discover that I've sort of written off the edge of my idea and will probably have to lose the last 10,000 words before I can write the last 25,000 or so. But the 95,000 words that are good really are. They need editing and polishing, just like any first draft (mine, anyway) but I now have them. Those words are mine. It took me six months to write my first novel. Then it took me two months to edit it. By doing the second in banzai form, I seem to have come out exhausted but six months ahead. It will be interesting to see if this will work every time. Probably not. It seems nothing ever does. :b

[evanaharris]

fresie: I don't think any Russian writer ever bothered to wonder if it would present a problem to an English-speaking reader. Talking about Dostoevsky, I'm yet to see a good (I'm not even talking about adequate) translation of any of his novels. Unfortunately, he's one of those writers where all the atmosphere gets lost in translation...


I'm reading the Pervear translation right now, and I like it, though I'm in no position to judge whether or not it's a "good" translation.

[evanaharris]

double post, deleted, mods, feel free to wipe the slate clean.

[LiamJackson]

Evan, that's a terrific review of The Alamo.
Your site is well constructed, too. Well done.

[evanaharris]

Much thanks, Liam. The website's a work in progress, as always. I wish I could keep the blog up, but I'm not the blogger-type. I write, but only daily, and only about stuff in my head.

[JuliePgh]

Jim,

I’ve been trying to get away from over usage of "he said, she said" in my dialogue. I’m striving to show my characters “doing” something while talking, to help slow the pace, and better yet, add dimension to characters and storyline alike. At times, I feel “he said, she said” is more appropriate, but a more descriptive tag is required (i.e. gloat, informed, mumbled, laughed, snapped etc).

Should these “more descriptive" verbs intended to replace 'said' be abandoned, or just used sparingly when description is not as appropriate and a dialogue tag is required?

My general sense is that a balance is required, depending on the passage and scene. I personally do not see the harm in using a replacement for 'said' if the verb adds flavor to how or what the character says. On the other hand, I’ve read that 'said' is more inconspicuous and less disruptive to the overall flow, almost disappearing into the background the way the words 'the' and 'a' do when used over and over again.

Any thoughts and/or suggestions?

Thank you!

[maestrowork]

I do not type quickly, I have just written 105,000 words in five weeks.

That's pretty fast typing (and writing). It's 3000 words every day, 7 days a week for 5 weeks. Not a lot of people can write that much.

[James D Macdonald]

'Said' is invisible.

The way a person says something should come to the reader from their understanding of the character, the circumstances, and the words the character is saying.

Many times 'said' itself isn't needed -- just sprinkled in often enough that the reader doesn't get lost.

Now ... having said that ... English is a wonderful language with lots and lots of words. If it's necessary to your story, yes, absolutely, use some word other than said. Just be sure that it's necessary, and not caused by not-as-well-written-as-possible dialog.

(Beware of adverbs combined with "said," lest you wind up with a Tom Swiftie: "My headache is gone," Tom said absentmindedly.)

<HR>

Let me quote from a book review I wrote a long time ago:



<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> I choose now, at random, page 253. Here are the "said" words, in order:

* "Belano whispered,"
* "Wareagle reported,"
* "McCracken muttered,"
* "rasped Sal,"
* "Wareagle said."

Finally got one. I was hoping for a shutout. Oh, well. <hr></blockquote>

[arataxia]

Hi Jim-

I just wanted to say that I've been reading this thread over the last couple of days with great enthusiasm. I really appreciate you doing this. :grin

Rich

[JuliePgh]

-----------------------------------------------
(Beware of adverbs combined with "said," lest you wind up with a Tom Swiftie: "My headache is gone," Tom said absentmindedly.)
------------------------------------------------

Maybe it's because it's late and I'm nearly brain dead, but is this your way of saying this is a poor shortcut and lost opportunity for meaningful description? Does the sentance then become something like:

"My headache is gone." Tom kissed her goodnight and turned back down the stoop. Across the street, the man walking his collie had gone from cursing to pulling the poor thing by its leash. Only when the man disappeared from sight, did Tom realize why Anne had asked if the aspirin had helped.

Thank you for the rest of your response. As always, you help put everything into perspective!

[James D Macdonald]

Alas, it must be late.

A Tom Swiftie is unintentional humor:

"I love hotdogs," Mandy said with relish.

"The prisoners are coming down stairs," said Tom condescendingly.

"My frog is dead," he croaked.

<hr>

(But yes -- don't you find meaningful description better than shortcuts? You're the author; you should do the work, not force the long-suffering reader to do it.)

(This doesn't mean that longer descriptions are better than shorter stuff. Depends on the mood you're setting, and your style.)

[maestrowork]

"Move your dog," Tom barked.

"My dead father has left us with nothing," Denise said willingly.

"You are my baby," Sam cried.

---

You can certainly pace your dialogue with actions, especially if you have page after page of dialogue. You always want to make your scenes somewhat dynamic, set them in dramatic situations. Just make sure your actions are relevant and not random "noise." Also, use sparingly, only when necessary. Tags are good for "beats," and actions are great for "pauses":

"You love me," he said. "Don't you?"
She threw the stone into the pond. He held his breath.
"You have to ask me?" she asked.


Tags are necessary when you have more than two people talking to each other. Without them, it would be very confusing.

[James D Macdonald]

As noted above, if you type Learn Writing into Google, you get this thread as your top result.

So I'm kinda interested in the <a href="http://www.dashes.com/anil/2004/06/04/nigritude_ultra" target="_new">nigritude ultramarine</a> challenge.

[pencilone]

Has anyone of you guys ever submitted the usual '3 chapters and synopsis' even if the whole novel has not been finished yet?

Is this just asking for trouble?:smack

Or it could have some positive results, such as: motivation to finish it quickly, useful feedback, testing the market, etc.

[Jules Hall]

I don't know about everyone else, but I think by the time I have 3 complete chapters, as good as I can get them, I'll probably be only days away from a complete novel, as good as I can get it. Not worth it.

Essentially, I don't think I could finish a chapter without having the rest of the book nearly finished.

[James D Macdonald]

Has anyone of you guys ever submitted the usual '3 chapters and synopsis' even if the whole novel has not been finished yet?

I do it all the darned time.

Is this just asking for trouble?

Depends. Are you a first-time author, or do you have a long track record of writing publishable novels and hitting deadlines?

[pencilone]

Many thanks for your replies.

Depends. Are you a first-time author, or do you have a long track record of writing publishable novels and hitting deadlines?

Uncle Jim, I'm just a beginner, newbie, first timer, hopeful and persistent aspiring writer:o Is it a different story then?

[James D Macdonald]

To bring together in one place various of my comments from other threads:

<hr>

I'd say that a tiny bit of creativity combined with a willingness to sit down and do the work will beat the heck out of gobs of creativity combined with a dilettante spirit.
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Practice doen't help a bit if you're practicing mistakes over and over again.

Practice helps if you're improving, if you're thinking about what you're doing, if you're reinforcing what works and suppressing what doesn't.

I've run into writers who've written their million words, whose millionth word was as cruddy as word one. Mere typing doesn't teach; seeking feedback, and taking it, may.
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-- <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=593.to pic&start=1&stop=20" target="_new">Age, Experience, and Writing</a>

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I know, "Keep a journal" is almost universal young-writer advice. It's almost always a waste of time, too.
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-- <A HREF="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=583.topic" target="_new">Taking Notes on Life</a>

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Many (most?) bestsellers are soon forgotten. Check out the bestseller lists from half a century ago. How many have you even heard of, far less read?

"Bestseller" is a genre as much as "romance," "western," or "mystery" is a genre. You'll find poorly written bestsellers in exactly the same way (and I suspect the same proportion) as you'll find poorly written horror novels, military novels, or lawyer novels.

"It's crap but we sell a ton of them" is itself a genre, and a particularly hard one to break in to.

Remember Sturgeon's Law: Ninety percent of everything is crud.
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As we get older, as we read more books, works that once might have seemed fresh, new, even daring become "been there, done that."

It's the down-side of experience.
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Traditionally published authors get their families, friends, and mailing list to buy their product. Vanity authors aren't the only ones who use that business tactic.

Sure, and Scientologists are required to buy a certain number of L. Ron Hubbard's books to keep them on the best seller lists.

I think it's pathetic all the way around.

On the other hand, if y'all want to buy my books (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/), please feel free. (This isn't to put any of 'em on any bestseller lists, it's because I think they're dandy books, and I want to be read. Buy 'em used if you like. Cheaper for you that way.)
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-- <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=595.topic" target="_new">Best sellers</a>

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All it takes to make your manuscript "solicited" is that you sent a query letter and they said "Sure, send it along."

Even for the ones who say "no unagented," all that's happened is the location of the slush pile moved, from the publisher's office to the agent's office.

There's even a category called "agented slush." That is, submissions from agents no one's ever heard of.

Slush happens.
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A bad agent is worse than not having an agent at all.

A useful agent is one who has sold a book you've heard of.

Here's an interesting article (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004772.html).

(Note: that site is semi-broken. If all you see is a bunch of ads and "loading" in the top bar of your browser, click on the "back" icon on your browser until you see text. If the text ends at the bottom of the ads, press your F11 key twice. That should get you the rest of the text.)
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"How long does it take?" is out of your hands.

Instead of giving yourself an ulcer, write another book.
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Speaking of "unknown agents" it's not unheard-of for writers to print up some nice letterhead as the "Morning Dew Literary Agency" or summat, and submit their own works as if they themselves were an agency.

Sure, that gets 'em past the "no unagented manuscripts" hurdle, but it still puts 'em in the "agented slush" pile.

Need I say that this is a terrible idea?
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The agent is for your next book, and the book after that. The agent is for your career.

And ... for the book you just sold ... sure it's sold, but the contract hasn't been negotiated yet. The agent should be able to get you better terms on the deal you've just been offered. The agent will also track rights and royalties, and resell this work after it reverts.

Look, agents aren't required. But they sure are nice to handle the business end of things.
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If bad writers could sucessfully fake being good writers, they wouldn't be bad writers.
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-- <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=588.topic" target="_new">Why slush piles?</a>

<HR>

There are only seven (some say eight) plots in the world.

The differences come in how you combine them, and what furniture you put around them.

For you next assignment:

Read:

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679722610/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Red Harvest</a> by Dashiell Hammett

Watch:

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0780022513/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Yojimbo</a>
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000K0DM/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">A Fistful of Dollars</a>
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008RH3L/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Miller's Crossing</a>
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6304698747/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Last Man Standing</a>

Compare and contrast. How are the plots similar? What makes these stories different?
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Another axiom:

All art is in conversation with other art.

Our own works are commentaries on the works we've read.
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Man against man, man against nature, man against himself, and man against God.

The other plots are: "The Brave Little Tailor," "The Man Who Learned Better," and "If This Goes On (or, "What If"). Some say "Reader, I Married Him" is the eighth plot.
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-- <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=594.topic" target="_new">Plot problems</a>

<HR>

When I see a manuscript with a copyright notice on it, dated ten or twenty years ago, believe me, it doesn't give me a happy feeling.

In any case, copyright exists from the moment the work is fixed in tangible form. All that registering buys you is the ability to go for punitive damages.

The books that get plagairized are the ones that are already published. Unpublished manuscripts ... I think I've heard of it happening. Once.

(I know that you hear wild stories of unscupulous agents kidnapping hapless slush manuscripts and selling them to pirate presses in Shanghai. I find this hard to believe for two reasons: First, if the unscrupulous agents were able to sell anything they wouldn't need to be unscrupulous, and second, why would the pirates want to print unedited slush by Joe Noname, when for exactly the same cost and effort they could print a Dean Koontz or Stephen King book?)
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I think that most editors who see a copyright notice on an unpublished manuscript say "What a maroon!" or words to that effect, and read the story however far it carries them.

I'm not saying that there aren't folks who are offended. But it's probably an insignificant number.
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You sometimes put rights for sale on a short story, but not on a novel.

Me, I only put rights for sale on a manuscript if some of the rights have already been used. There are lots and lots of rights you can sell, all to different markets. First North American Serial rights. First World Anthology (Exclusive of the British Commonwealth) rights. Exclusive Reprint rights. Non-exclusive Reprint rights. Dramatic rights. Electronic rights. Serialization rights. Back-of-the-cereal-box rights. Printed on cupcake wrapper rights.

If the story's never sold anywhere before -- it's all for sale. The contract you sign should specify exactly which rights the publisher is buying. And in this -- like everything else -- it's all negotiable.
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I didn't know there were "Harry Potter" cupcakes!


If there aren't that'll mean that someone at Scholastic missed a marketing opportunity.

Oh, and the best seller list? Been there. That and $2.50 will get me a double-shot mocha latte.

(Actually, there isn't a "the best seller list." There's lots of best seller lists. USA Today. New York Times. Locus. The Picayne Press. Lots and lots of best seller lists. You're not half doing your job if you can't honestly put the words "best-selling author" on your second book. If you have half-way decent distribution you'll be on someone's best seller list.)
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-- <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=586.topic" target="_new">Copyright</a>

<HR>

...does that mean you write them all simultaneously?

Well, yes.

These are other things that are going on at the same time as the main action, that are supporting, or contrasting, with the overall theme of your book.
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-- <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=589.topic" target="_new">Subplots?</a>

<HR>

Anyone following this discussion who hasn't yet read The Murder of Roger Ackroyd (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0425176517/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) by Agatha Christie needs to go out and do so now.
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"Withholding information" isn't necessarily a good plan either. We're trying to give information to our readers. We go out of our way to make sure the readers have the information. Information is what the readers are using to create pictures in their heads.

If you want to conceal something from your readers, tell them, but put it in a low-interest place, or mixed in among other things.

I recall reading a thriller some years back. In this book, the protagonist's sister is having a torrid love affair with a US Senator named "Sam."

It wasn't until sixty pages later that the author revealed that "Sam" is short for Samantha, and the Senator is female. Woo! Good job, author! I've now got to mentally re-cast sixty pages-worth of the pictures I'd drawn in my head.

Never mind that every single character in the book would have known Sam's gender, the author decided to conceal it from the reader in order to carry out some surprise or another.

That was the point where I threw the book across the room.
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-- <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=579.to pic&start=1&stop=20" target="_new">Confident but Confused Protagonist</a>

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I have to agree with aineg -- word choice and sentence rhythm can take you farther than dialect will.
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-- <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=552.to pic&start=1&stop=20" target="_new">Phonetic Dialog</a>

<HR>

I've gone the made-up pronoun route in a story where we had three genders. (The third one was "ne.")

I've also gone (in a novel where a biologically female character went disguised as a male for big chunks of the story) with she/her when she was dressed and acting as a woman, and he/his when she was dressed and acting as a male.

If you really want to use the correct unknown-gender singular pronoun in English, it's they/their.

(If anyone wants a hotdog they can come over here.)

Before anyone gets their panties all bunched up, "they" has been a perfectly acceptable singular pronoun since Geoffrey Chaucer. Shakespeare used "they" as an unknown-gender singular pronoun, Edmund Spenser used it, Jane Austen used it, George Orwell used it. It's only the silly prescriptive-grammarians who think that "they" can't be used as a singular pronoun.
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-- <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=581.topic" target="_new">androgenous characters and pronouns</a>

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Don't even think about revising until you have 300 pages or "the end," whichever comes last.

You won't know what you have until then.
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You'll find your style. Style is what you can't help doing.
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-- <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=577.topic" target="_new">Changing Gears</a>

<HR>

[maestrowork]

Pencilone, just imagine you send out your 3 and synopsis, and they're good enough that the agent or publisher asks for the whole ms, in a week. What would you do?

Now if you said, but nobody's going to ask for the full ms. Then, what's the point?

You don't want to be caught with your pants down. If you can finish your ms with publishable quality in a short period of time, by a deadline (say, a few weeks after you sent out your 3), then sure, do it.

Otherwise, finish your ms. first.

[James D Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, I'm just a beginner, newbie, first timer, hopeful and persistent aspiring writer Is it a different story then?

Finish your book. I mean finish it. All the writing, all the re-writing, all the revising.

Only then should you think about trying to market it. Until the book is done you may not even know what your first three chapters are.

[pencilone]

Yes, I'll be going back to BIC.
BICing in the morning, BICing in the afternoon and BICing at night.
I'll just keep on trucking then.:)

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=583&ncid=583&e=1&u=/nm/20040607/od_nm/media_penguin_men_dc" target="_new">Improve your chances for Friday night...</a>

...85 percent of women said a man could increase his chances of getting a date by talking about a favorite book.

[LiamJackson]

Okay, Jim...time to 'fess up. Where the heck can you get a double shot mocha latte' for only $2.50???

[James D Macdonald]

Y'see, Liam, when you're a best seller you can get a double shot mocha latte for only $2.50.

Another reason to write that book....

[LiamJackson]

Now, how did I know you'd come back around to that? Nicely done, JM.

[HollyB]

Whew! Thanks for the recap, Uncle Jim.

I have a question about your comments regarding feedback... so I'm doing my BIC, words spooling out of me, but without feedback they may stink to high heaven. So I need real feedback (not from my beta readers, who are all supportive).

What is the best source of feedback? Of course, my first choice would be a conference like yours, but are there other options that don't involve long-distance travel, expenses, or babysitters for my children?

What is your opinion of online critiques, like the Absolute Write or Critters.org? (I have a silly confession, I find it really hard to read long blocks of text online, so I haven't critiqued any of the stories on Absolute Write).

Thanks everyone for the input!

[James D Macdonald]

Critters is a pretty good group by all accounts.

You could also ask your local librarian if there are any off-line workshops around. Librarians tend to know that sort of thing.

Workshops aren't for everyone, but you might give it a try.

Find new beta readers -- ones who are willing to tear you apart.

Develop your own critical instincts, too. Look at your writing carefully.

And -- you know something? I can't read long blocks of text on screen either. I print stuff out double-spaced, work on it in hard copy, then comment on-line, when I do that sort of thing.

[maestrowork]

You shouldn't pick beta readers who would only give you positive feedbacks and support. You need betas who will be honest with you if the book stinks.

[JuliePgh]

I've been toying with a few titles, all of which are subtle, leaving the reader to decide the meaning as he/she reads the book.

I realize the title is secondary to the quality of the writing/book itself, but I need to ask:

1) should the title appear or be explained in the book or is a subtle/vague title appropriate?

2) do agents/publishers often stop at the title, make a judgment based on the title alone and pass on the m/s without ever reading anything from the m/s?

Thank you.

[macalicious731]

Julie, this is one of the things I also wanted to address.

However, I was more interested in how people develop their titles? Do you like to title right away, wait until the book is finished, take a line from the book, make up something completely original.. etc... I myself am terrible at them.

A friend of mine isn't a fan of making the title something already out of the book. As he put it, the title is a way of adding more story to your work.

[kdfrawg]

Not unless it the title of another well-known novel. :grin One thing that editors are well-know for is changing the title, though.

[sugarmuffin]

Hey Uncle Jim,

Some time back (and some time recently) you recommended Red Harvest, by Hammett as an example of plot and lifting plot. Well, I read it a while ago and was hoping you would expound, and we could have a discussion.

May I suggest that whoever wants to read it and we can have a discussion on it in a week or so? It can either be discussed here or in a thread on plot and D. Hammett, led by you? What say you, Uncle Jim? Or feel free to ramble on it a bit now...

Lisa

[James D Macdonald]

Okay: Titles.

I've been thinking of creating an Authors' Title Generator, which would run on your computer, and which I could sell to aspiring authors for $449.95 (plus tax). It would come in a very attractive box.

What it would do would be ask you a number of questions about your book, then ... you click on the "Title" button and it ignores what you just typed in. It just prints out a random line from Hamlet. (Coleridge, and the various Restoration poets also give good title.)

===

Either a title will come to you, or one won't. The editor is going to change the title anyway, so this doesn't matter much.

If the editor is discarding manuscripts based on the title alone ... I pity da fool. His loss.

===

On Red Harvest, sure, we can have a discussion. (Probably in its own thread. Is this the best board for it?)

[macalicious731]

Either a title will come to you, or one won't.

Okay. So does that mean you can submit an ms without a title - and it will still go over well?

[maestrowork]

You should always provide a title, even if it's only a working tittle. Otherwise, the editor/agent would think: hey, the author doesn't even know! Call it "John Smith's Story" if you like, but give it a title when you submit. If nothing else, the editor needs something to identify your ms apart from the others.

I always have a working title right off the start, usually it's based on the theme of the book... then during the course of writing it, I'd change the title a few times... eventually it would "come to me."

[James D Macdonald]

So does that mean you can submit an ms without a title - and it will still go over well?

Nah, it means that you'll just have to slap a few words at the top of the manuscript so you'll have something to put in the running header.

Free titles:

More Native to the Heart
My Virtue or My Plague
No Wind of Blame
What I Do to the Grass
An Erring Lace
Caverns Measureless
This League of Blood

[Jules Hall]

I think I'm going to have to write a random title generator web page now. Probably with a drop-down box for genre, so that it can choose appropriate words :)

[JuliePgh]

However, I was more interested in how people develop their titles? Do you like to title right away, wait until the book is finished, take a line from the book, make up something completely original.. etc... I myself am terrible at them.


Macalicious731,

I choose a working title right away, usually after the initial concept comes to mind. I do everything on a PC, so it's important that my ideas for any one book are grouped and maintained separately from others from the start. The best way of identifying that book then, is by the folder, to which I've applied the book's title.

As for as how I derive a title, I think about the major theme, focus, or conflict in the book and generally I take the first half-decent title which comes to mind and go with it, as a working title. I know changing the title is easy enough later on (both for my folder name and the chapters' heaaders) as the book forms, but I do want some title in place from the time I start my first files (character backgrounds, outline, customs, etc).

I ask my beta readers if the title was appropriate, etc as well.
I hope this helps.

I find it interesting, but not surprising, that the editors often change the titles.

[ChunkyC]

A good title is important in that it can encourage a browser in a bookstore to pick your book off the shelf, but while you're writing the book, I wouldn't get too worried about it. Something will occur to you along the way, and like Uncle Jim says, an editor might want to change it.

Get the story down, and if a brilliant title like "The Grapes of Wrath" occurs to you, then great! However, I like to keep in mind that a fabulous title is worthless without a fabulous book between the covers. It's the book that gives the title meaning.

[Kate Nepveu]

Possibly-helpful link: The Theory and Practice of Titles (http://www.sfwa.org/bulletin/articles/clough.htm), by by B.W. Clough.

[Yeshanu]

Quote:

What it would do would be ask you a number of questions about your book, then ... you click on the "Title" button and it ignores what you just typed in. It just prints out a random line from Hamlet. (Coleridge, and the various Restoration poets also give good title.)


The bible also gives good titles, if you know where to look. But if you want to use Shakespeare, Coleridge, the bible or poets to generate a title, then you're going to have to read them... ;)

As to titles: I started writing my novel under the rather boring title of "High Queen of the Elves," which was good enough for me at the time. My beta readers weren't given a title, and neither asked for nor suggested one.

Now that I know what the novel is about, and that there will be two more to finish the complete series, I have two possible titles. The first, "A Time to Seek," comes from Ecclesiastes. The second is "Y-Manit," which is the title of the main character in the book (elvish equivalent of empress).

My question to Uncle Jim is this: I read in a writing book that when choosing a title, one should not use "made up" words. However, I've also read Steven Brust's books: "Jhereg," "Yendi," etc. He obviously doesn't agree with this particular author. What is your take on this? Is it a more acceptable practice in fantasy than other genres, or should I stick with the biblical title when submitting the ms.?

Ruth

[James D Macdonald]

A title should be:

1) Easy to spell, and
2) Not embarassing to say out loud.

Beyond that, make it something meaningful to you. Or not.

[maestrowork]

I like titles that are evocative and easy to remember, but not "cliche."

[Flawed Creation]

I can't imagine finishing a book wihtout a title. while i don't have titles for my books or stories when i start them, or sometimes for several chapters in, i find the title is a crucial part of the book for me to undertsn it. it sets the tone both for the readers, and, (to me) the author. i need the title first so i can write the book wiht the right tone and theme, and slapping a title on at the end seem likely to generate a title that is poorly matched to a book. maybe you all can, but for me it's like writing a character without a name.

for instance, here are sveral titles that could all apply to my book. (some of them are the titles of other books)

The Shivered Sky

The Angel's War

The Children of Zelos

Fallen Angel

Catsle in the Clouds

The Ivory Tower

Angels and Demons

The War in Heaven

Freedom

Transformation (my first working title)

Flawed Creation

now, look at each of these titles and think for a minute about what the book might be. each one suggests slightly different themes, tones, even story events. if you started to wite a story to go wiht the name, you'd get very different results.

the title has an impact on the way your book is perceived, and the book has to match the title.

P.S
my book is actually called "Flawed Creation".

[macalicious731]

Get the story down, and if a brilliant title like "The Grapes of Wrath" occurs to you, then great! However, I like to keep in mind that a fabulous title is worthless without a fabulous book between the covers.

Am I the only one who hated "Grapes of Wrath"? Dunno... it just never clicked. On the other hand, I absolutely love "Of Mice and Men"... so it's nothing against Steinbeck.

Strange, though, how one novel can be in my top ten and the second another one I wished I never had to read. It's been awhile, though, maybe in a couple of years I'll give it another shot.

[KyleDHebert]

When an editor/agent asks for a synopsis what do they want? Do they want the sort of thing that appears on a book's jacket or do they want something more detailed, like say a chapter by chapter breakdown?

And yes, before you ask, I am finished writing the MS. That's revised, revised again, revised again, Beta read, revised and sitting in two MS boxes with cover letters and the adresses of the first agent and house to get a copy. I just need the synopsis.

[James D Macdonald]

The editor is expecting around 5,000 words of active prose, single spaced, present tense, that tells the complete plot of the book with the major characters and major plot points fully laid out, including the surprise ending.

Think of someone telling his pal about a moive he saw last night. That's the sort of level of detail that you're going for.

[Kate Nepveu]

One example synopsis can be found at SFWA (http://www.sfwa.org/writing/OP71.htm). Anyone have others? We should collect links and submit it for the FAQ.

[SRHowen]

On titles--all titles are working titles, publishers often "sugest" a new one, once you get that far.

I always have a title in mind when I start working, it's part of the process for me.

Shawn (trying to type with 22 pound cat sitting in my way)

[maestrowork]

You should prepare three versions of your synopsis:

One for your best friend at a leisurely dinner party, one for a business associate by the water cooler, and one for a total stranger stuck with you in an elevator.

A logline is one that you make for the time when someone stops you on your way to the bathroom, ready to explode.

[paritoshuttam]

Hi
This link would be helpful:

www.lisagardner.com/tricks/synopsis.htm (http://www.lisagardner.com/tricks/synopsis.htm)

- Paritosh.

[macalicious731]

Okay... grammar stuff.

1980's or 1980s?
CD's or CDs?

I always thought it was the latter. But now I'm seeing the first ('s) more and more, in both situations. Neither context is possessive.

You wouldn't say 'compact disc's.'
I would think decades would be the same. ... :shrug

[James D Macdonald]

Me, I don't use the apostrophes. But remember that an apostrophe doesn't mean possession -- it means that one or more letter was left out. (In the case of possessives, the letter is 'e').

[maestrowork]

I was born in the 1980s (or '80s).

I like to count the years in 3s or 4s, but watch out of the 3's and 4's.

[pdr]

As I understand it 1980's needs an apostrophe because you are talking about the group of years that make the decade. These years are of the 1980's, they belong to the 1980's.
In the case of CDs that is the plural form so I'd expect to write it without an apostrophe. I think the problem arises because people use their computer speller checkers. Those darned things all seem to want to put an apostrophe in words like CDs!

[reph]

No, 1980s doesn't need an apostrophe. It shouldn't have one. It's simply a plural noun, the plural of 1980.

1980's would be the possessive of 1980, as in "I can't remember a single one of 1980's front-page news stories." 1980s' would be the possessive of 1980s, as in "The 1980s' children are young adults now." Realistic examples are hard to come by; we don't usually use the possessive of years or decades.

[JuliePgh]

I'm not sure how to classify my book in a query letter. I've always used SF&F as a catch all when talking to friends, but I've also heard the term 'space opera' which might apply. Thank you.

[Poe Me]

I would like to chime in and add my apple to the no doubt all ready covered teacher's desk. Thanks Uncle Jim for starting this thread and also for so faithfully keeping it going. There has been a lot of good info covered here, and I'm sure there is lots more to come.

Poe Me

[James D Macdonald]

Call it "speculative fiction," and give the titles of a couple of books with the same look-and-feel....

[Yeshanu]

I have a little book called "The Elements of Grammar" by Margaret Shertzer, which I purchased at the same time as my Strunk & White. She says:

"The 's may be added to figures, signs, symbols, and letters of the alphabet to form the plural. There is, however, a growing tendency to omit the apostrophe in such cases where there is no possibility of mistaking the meaning."

Therefore, according to her, using 1980s or 1980's is a matter of personal style. She does suggest that the 's be used in the case below:

"Your a's look very much like your o's.

Hope this helps.

Ruth

[James D Macdonald]

Another neat toy: <a href="http://www.morovia.com/education/utility/upc-ean.asp" target="_new">An ISBN Checksum Calculator</a>.

Simple things amuse me.

[Jules Hall]

Very handy. BTW: to convert an ISBN to a barcode, use EAN13, and put 978 followed by everything but the check digit of the ISBN, and calculate the correct EAN13 check digit for that.

EAN13 (...) check digit calculation is very similar to UPC-A.

Somebody's missed the point. UPC-A is EAN13 with the first digit set to zero.

[KyleDHebert]

First of all does anyone know where I can find a list of publisher's that ARE accepting unsolicited manuscripts. I've been doing some extensive web trolling and have yet to stunble across a single one.

Secondly, does a publisher who doesn't accept unsoliciteds have a slush pile, or do they really discard every MS they receive?

How does a book actually end up on a slushpile?

[James D Macdonald]

All that "no unsolicited manuscripts" means is "send us a query letter first."

Yes, they still have slush piles. (If nothing else, then for the agented slush.)


For publishers that accept unsolicted manuscripts (John Wiley, for example), check Writer's Market.

Many (most?) small presses accept unsolicited manuscripts.

[SFEley]

The other day Uncle Jim wrote:
The editor is expecting around 5,000 words of active prose, single spaced, present tense, that tells the complete plot of the book with the major characters and major plot points fully laid out, including the surprise ending.

As it happens, I just finished mine, and it's pretty much what you describe. Someone asked about examples, so I may as well post the link:
Day of Clouds - Synopsis (http://www.extraneous.org/fiction/outline.pdf)

I'm happy for you all to look at it if you want to, and interested in comments if you have any, but as a personal request, please don't go relinking that URL in other pages throughout the Web. (For one thing, it's my personal server so it probably couldn't handle heavy Web traffic; for another, I'd really prefer this thing not to show up as a high Google match.) Thanks.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[Terra Aeterna]

Hey Steve,

Why did you put the chapter numbers in there?

I'm struggling with my own synopsis, so I'm very interested.

[ChunkyC]

Steve - thanks for posting that link to your synopsis. Very helpful, and I'm sure we'll all respect your wishes and not spread the link beyond here.

I too am curious about your reasoning behind including the chapter headings.

[evanaharris]

I'd imagine it's primarily because each chapter ends with a sort of hook, and he wanted to *point out* that each chapter ended quite nicely and made you want to turn the page.

Just a guess.

[SFEley]

Terra Aeterna wrote:
Why did you put the chapter numbers in there?
Good question. The pedantic answer would be: Because I take care to establish some sense of dramatic completion in each chapter, and this structure helps the reader to perceive the dramatic units in which the novel was written, much like Evana said.

But the more accurate answer would be: "I dunno. Seemed like a good idea at the time." >8->

On looking at the outline again, I'm seriously considering adding a couple sections to the front, briefly describing the setting and the major characters. Anyone think this would make it clearer and more interesting, or would it just add length without adding value?


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[James D Macdonald]

Think you can add that material in one paragraph in the Chapter One part of the synopsis?

[pianoman5]

In my experience, the recommended length of a synopsis is extremely variable, and is determined solely by the party asking for it.

I have seen rules of thumb that suggest 1 page for each 10,000 words of text, which is approximately 10 pages/5,000 words for a typical-length novel. I have even heard tell of agents/publishers who want, or will accept, up to 25 pages. But most submission guidelines I've encountered ask for 1-2 pages, and certainly no more than 5.

The purpose of a synopsis is to be a BRIEF description of the main characters and plot points of the work - a selling document that demonstrates compellingly in miniature the page-turning nature of the novel it describes.

A 10 page single spaced document, in my view, is not a synopsis - it's more like an outline.

[jeffspock]

Steve,

Thanks for sharing your work.

Typo: Page 15, first line, "Teh centaurs" instead of "The centaurs"

Jeff

[SFEley]

Uncle Jim wrote:
Think you can add that material in one paragraph in the Chapter One part of the synopsis?
Maybe. It would be a structural stretch, because Chapter One takes place in a different setting than the rest of the book, and only introduces one of the characters. Perhaps one paragraph just before Chapter One would be just right.

And Jeffspock wrote:
Typo: Page 15, first line, "Teh centaurs" instead of "The centaurs"
Thanks! So people are actually reading the thing. Wow. >8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[SFEley]

pianoman5 wrote:
In my experience, the recommended length of a synopsis is extremely variable, and is determined solely by the party asking for it.
...
A 10 page single spaced document, in my view, is not a synopsis - it's more like an outline.
I see. If you ever ask me for a synopsis, I'll be sure to keep it short. >8->

From what I've seen the two terms are used fairly interchangeably. In writing this thing, which is specifically going to be used to query Tor and in response to anyone else who asks for three-chapters-and-an-outline, I took my cue from Donald Maass's book The Career Novelist. He was pretty ambiguous about length too: IIRC, his advice was "Five pages is probably too short, and fifty pages is probably too long."


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[Delirieuse]

Thanks! So people are actually reading the thing. Wow. >8->

Of course! You had me on tenterhooks as to what happened next. You'll have to tell the board when you get it published.

Another tiny typo for you: on page 5, second paragraph, you have "Sitter claims that intererence" when presumably you mean "Sitter claims that interference".

[maestrowork]

This is more a chapter by chapter synopsis, which is nice to have. However, some publishers want a more "general," narrative synopsis that is 2-10 pages long.

[JuliePgh]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Jode is awkard with attraction for her<hr></blockquote>

Found a typo in chapter 16, assuming the intended word is 'awkward.'

[Andrew Jameson]

Oooh, thanks for the synopsis. I was interested and excited just reading that, never mind the actual novel.

However, my anal retentiveness picked up the following:

Chapter Two: with a warning that she should leave by the morning. The rhyming words are awkward.
Chapter Four: by stars tat do not move Typo
Chapter Five: a hole into anotherRealm Missing space
Chapter Nine: the city on the facade of a plague Facade of a plague?
Chapter Ten: father and son and the way to Nerratt. On the way, right?
Chapter Ten: and Ilys race into the city He and Ilys, I think.
Chapter Fifteen: Back inEdghill, Missing space
Chapter Thirty-Seven She maunds a strong display Maunds?
Chapter Thirty-Seven andtakes her seat Missing space
Chapter Thirty-Nine some of their languae, Typo
Chapter Forty and is unswayed even Rothain's vivid description Missing a "by," I think

[SFEley]

Man, you guys are good. I guess it's like Linus Torvalds (the creator of Linux) always says: "With enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow."

You have my sincere appreciation, and I'll fix all of those. Thanks!

(And if anybody's going to WorldCon, let me know and I'll buy you a beer there, or whatever you drink in lieu of beer.) >8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[macalicious731]

So. There's a very helpful exercise where you go through your ms and cross out every form of the verb "to be." No was, been, etc. Of course you can't do this with absolutely everything, but I think it can be very useful to identify some problems.

Okay then. How would one revise a sentence such as "She had been missing for three days"? "She was missing for three days" still has a 'to be' form - but this sounds as if 'she' is found, whereas in the first form she's still missing. I suppose 'missing' is just one of those verbs, but I'm curious as to what other people think of this scenario? :huh

[Tormanth]

The entire neighborhood searched for three days but could not find her.

or

Three days ago, she had vanished. The entire neighborhood missed her.

or

She fired at the target for three days, missing every time.

JB

[Yeshanu]

mac,

What's the context? Before I could edit that sentence, I'd have to know what words surrounded the sentence. For example, perhaps it could be mostly omitted:

"Three days later, they found her body, dangling by a bootlace half-way down the cliff."

(Okay, so it's not great, but it doesn't use any form of "to be")

Sometimes, reversing the sentence might work.

"She was overwhelmed by terror," becomes, "Terror overwhelmed her."

On the other hand, editing out all forms of "to be" would be (see, I just used it!) very awkward, and that would detract from the final ms.

Just some thoughts...

Ruth

[ChunkyC]

On the other hand, editing out all forms of "to be" would be (see, I just used it!) very awkward, and that would detract from the final ms.
A good point, Ruth. Examining your manuscript for these 'to be' instances should give you the opportunity to decide if it is the best way. On occasion it might.

[macalicious731]

Context. Hm. Context could be useful. But actually, the sentence simliar to this one stands alone - an "opener" if you would - so it really doesn't have anything attached.

I believe this is one of those occassions which Chunky and I mentioned where you should stick with 'to be'. I should have explained further that in said exercise you go through again and stick all of the necessary forms back in. But it's still fun to play around with, right? Word games. (;

[maestrowork]

It's a good idea to go through your ms and weed out the unnecessary "to be" words (including "there is," "was doing something," etc.), "very," "quite" and examine every adverb and redundant adjectives ("She is beautiful and ravishing").

However, if you just blindly take things out, your prose may lose that "natural" feeling. Keep what works and take out what doesn't. Be a smart editor, not a robot.

[HapiSofi]

I'd use "She had been missing for three days," or possibly "She'd been missing for three days." It's a good, serviceable, informative sentence. You read it without a bobble, pick up all the necessary information, and move on. I haven't seen any alternatives suggested here that don't add friction to the reading process.

I don't know where the idea comes from that "to be" verbs are inherently bad. If you'll go look at some notable English stylists, you'll find they use "to be" verbs all the time. I'll grant that you can frequently make your sentences shorter, sharper, and more precise by using specific rather than generic verbs. If you're looking to do that, "to be" verbs are definitely going to be on the "examine for possible alternatives" list. However, make, use, say, go, and a bunch of other verbs should also be on that list. You have to use your judgement.

[maestrowork]

Other things to watch out for are phrases like: see, hear, witness, feel, realize, remember, etc.:

"I heard the door banging shut..." -- replace with "The door banged shut."
"I saw Joe come through the door..." -- "Joe came through the door."
"I remember my father gave me a shovel..." -- "My father gave me a shovel..."

Of course, examine each sentence and make your decison. Sometimes it's better to leave them in.

[James D Macdonald]

Three days later she still hadn't turned up....

<hr>

Need I mention that in the right story, at the right place any one of those sentences could be the absolutely right one?

This is not a science, measured with stopwatch and micrometer. This is an art, an art where the one rule is "It works."

[James D Macdonald]

Happy Bloomsday.

[PixelFish]

I'm really bad. I've never read James Joyce, and the only reason I knew it was Bloomsday yesterday was because of some blurb on the BBC website. (Although I did ponder snagging Ulysses when I was last in Barnes and Noble, because they have classics 3 for the price of 2 right now, and I also wanted copies of Crime and Punishment and The Art of War. )

[Yeshanu]

To all:

I had to ask my fifteen-year-old daughter what "Bloomsday" was. :o

I've posted two versions of a short (four paragraph) opening scene from my novel in the Share Your Work forum. It's here:

p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=331.topic (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=331.topic)

I'd appreciate it if some of you folks could take the time to give me some feedback on it. I promise, I've got thick skin.

Thanks,

Ruth

[pencilone]

I feel very guilty as I have not written a word this whole week:head :smack :gone

How do you guys manage not to let external (or internal) events interfere and take over your writing?

[maestrowork]

How do you guys manage not to let external (or internal) events interfere and take over your writing?

:rollin :lol :rofl

so funny... whew... I can't breathe...

[Yeshanu]

How do you guys manage not to let external (or internal) events interfere and take over your writing?

To translate maestro's rather incoherent reply:

We don't "not manage to let external (or internal) events interfere and take over [our] writing." (Please note the double negative here...)

But I think Uncle Jim would say that the way to take back control is to sit down in the chair and write.

[SRHowen]

if you figure that out let me know--everything tries to interfere. The first thing is to tell everyone around you--this is my career choice, and I must work at least X number of hours everyday at it, no matter what.

Then you set those hours and just as though you were going to a job outside of the house --you place butt in chair and write. Do things interfere with a job outside the house? You bet. But if you let them keep you from going to work or doing your job you won't have the job, same with writing.

Set a time and go to "work."

Shawn

[Man with twohanded sword]

Shawn has it. You have to treat it as a second job and don't let other people treat your writing time as a resource.

IMHO...

It helps to get some success in early - e.g. a short story in print, or a short novella for a small publisher. That validates your grand project and makes it seem less like you're throwing time away that could be spent with kith and kin.

However, the big thing is to do a very thorough life laundry.
You need to make space for writing without compromising the things that matter. Cut the faffing and the frittering, but not the time spent on your nearest and dearest. :kiss

That can mean dropping hobbies, dependent or non-entertaining friends, not watching TV except for a couple of carefully chosen shows (e.g. I've kept up with Buffy and SG1), not wasting time on the internet, and not getting drawn into activities parallel to writing such as reading groups and fandom etc.

For example, I used to do almost anything to secure company at lunchtime. Now I limit myself to one lunchtime coffee with a mate per week. Other days find me in the local pub, hunched over my laptop. I can manage about 700 words in the time. (It helps me to work from an outline since I can tweak this in odd moments, and think about it without access to a computer.)

It can also mean meeting your general needs in ways that help your writing. I need exercise to fight off the middle aged flab, and to keep my brain going. I also need a social circle of like minded people which exists without too much input from me. So I do western martial arts and battle reenactment. I have mates who talk about swords and armour, am fairly fit, and can write about medieval combat from the inside (I'm off this weekend to spend two days fighting in plate armour). If I wrote military SF, I'd take up paint wars and orienteering instead.

If some of this seems a little selfish, then too bad. When you're old and wrinkly, you won't remember the names of most of your friends, or the TV shows you watched, or the bulletin boards you haunted. But you will be able to point to a creaking shelf of paperback novels with your name on each spine.

You might want to read
www.sff.net/people/jennif...egarb.html (http://www.sff.net/people/jennifercrusie/nf_takingoutthegarb.html)

Good luck!

[maestrowork]

Well... to me, life is about balance. If you work too hard, you will eventually burn out. I was a very successful IT consultant and I burned out... I don't want that to happen to my writing.

The greatest gift to a writer is his/her ability to observe life. The fuller his/her life is, the richer the stories are. It's about experiences. It's great to travel far and wide, to meet different people, to taste different food, to experience different cultures, to have a passion outside of your work...

You must balance your work (writing) with living (hobbies, friends, life style, family, etc.).

[PixelFish]

I wrote a couple of thousand words in the last few days, maybe four thousand. I just sat down and told myself to write. It probably wasn't very good, but it had to be done, and I can always quarry whatever gems there are out of it later, or I can rewrite the whole thing, or whatever.

You do have to make time for it though, and not let "things" just come up.

[James D Macdonald]

Who knew it would be <a href="http://members.ozemail.com.au/~imcfadyen/notthenet/fantasy.htm" target="_new">this easy</a>?

[Yeshanu]

Jim,

:ha

One bestselling fantasy novel coming right up...

Ruth

[robertquiller]

How true, How true...

[James D Macdonald]

... to do while you're avoiding writing:

Fold a paper pressman's hat.

<a href="http://hotlinecy.com/images/hat.pdf" target="_new">hotlinecy.com/images/hat.pdf</a>

Notice that the instructions are given in terms of publicity.

(Further note: If you get a big enough sheet of tinfoil the same instructions can be used to make a tinfoil hat that will keep the CIA mind-control satelites from taking over your brain. Very handy!)

(Further further note: We had a novel wherein one of the characters used silver foil to fold a hat to keep vampires from reading his mind. <A href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0425143627/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Hunters' Moon</a>. Buy one -- better still, buy a dozen! They make excellent gifts....)

(Further further further note: This is the same hat that the Carpenter is wearing in the <a href="http://www.victorianweb.org/graphics/tenniel/lookingglass/4.4.html" target="_new">classic illustrations by John Tenniel</a> for "The Walrus and the Carpenter." <a href="http://margosdolls.com/images/Walrus-Carpenter.jpg" target="_new"> Isn't</a> <a href="http://www.pixieland.co.uk/pages/images/moorlandmini/onseat.JPG" target="_new">literacy</a> <a href="http://www.mt.net/~atelling/Graphics_for_Articles/Walrus_and_Carpenter/second.jpg" target="_new">fun</a>?)

(Today's assignment: After you've folded your paper hat, wear it, and while wearing it memorize <a href="http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/walrus.html" target="_new">"The Walrus and the Carpenter."</a> (You didn't think you'd get off easy, did you?))

[JuliePgh]

James,

My opening scene occurs when my protagonist is twelve. The scene is short, 4-5 paragraphs. The next scene jumps 17 years. The jump is obvious. I feel the initial scene is needed in the beginning because it provides vital insight into the character along the way, but the scene also raises multiple questions which don't get answered until the last few chapters.

Is a jump like that in the beginning, bad form? Do the readers question, "Hey, what's going on here?" or are they generally tolerant and trust that the author has placed that piece of history there for a reason which will become evident in time?

What, if any, are the dangers I need to look out for here?

Thank you.
:b

[wwwatcher]

Oh, yay,

"1. Create a main character.
Most of the people who read your book will be unconfident males. So make your main character a Loser. Aimless, shy, cowardly, guilty, ill, lazy, rural - any of these will do."

Does this mean we're going to see fantasys starring rednecks?

(I know we already have them; I've just been ignoring the fact.)

[Jules Hall]

Julie: I've seen plenty of published books that do exactly that. One that jumps to mind is 'Mystery' by Peter Straub. While I have a lot of bad things to say about that book, that aspect of it isn't one of them. Another is 'Wheelers' by Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen, which is an excellent book.

[James D Macdonald]

Julie, what can I say but write the book and see if it works?

Four or five paragraphs -- if necessary you can set 'em in italic.

If the information is only necessary at the end, you can put those four or five paragraphs pretty much anywhere before the end.

As you write the book, consider other places to put that info. But until you reach "The End," there's really no way to tell what's right.

(Asking your readers to hold that info in mind for the entire duration of the book ... I dunno. See what your beta readers say. When they reach the climax have they already forgotten what was in that brief lead-in?)

Is the scene, all on its own, memorable, interesting, and fast-moving?

I don't know any of those things. You do.

[Betty W01]

See how John Ringo did it, in There Will Be Dragons. (Good book just to read for fun, too!)

[maestrowork]

Julie, just write your chapters as you'd want it. That will help you flesh out all your characters and ideas. Then during rewrite, determine when your story really starts -- the rest is just back stories. You can then integrate the back stories back into the main story if they're important, or skip them -- you don't have to tell the readers everything you, the author, knows.

In general, it's good to begin in the middle of the story. You need to engage the readers right off the bat. 17 years is a long gap, and unless it's a prelude of what has yet to come (E.g. how Dracula tasted his first blood... etc.), you may want to skip the back story.

Do the editing once you finish your book: first or second draft.

[James D Macdonald]

Without further ado, take it away, New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/11/nyregion/11impeach.html?pagewanted=1)!

<blockquote>
HARTFORD, June 10 - A state employee and longtime confidante of Gov. John G. Rowland solicited a $32,000 loan from the nonprofit foundation that supports the governor's residence so the governor's wife could publish a children's book, "Marvelous Max, the Mansion Mouse," according to documents released on Thursday by the House committee investigating whether to recommend impeaching Mr. Rowland.

The foundation's lawyer rejected the idea as inappropriate. But the chairman, Wilson Wilde, later wrote a series of personal checks totaling more than $41,000 to have the book illustrated and published. In a telephone interview on Thursday, Mr. Wilde said that at the time he expected profits to benefit both Patricia Rowland and the Governor's Residence Conservancy.

...

According to an affidavit submitted to the committee by John Tucker, president of Norfleet Press, the book's publisher, the book has not even sold enough copies to repay Mr. Wilde in full. "No profits have yet been made and I would be happily surprised if there were any profits in the future," he wrote.

</blockquote>

Wow. You can't buy publicity like that. (Or maybe you can.) She did everything she could, went and did the bookstore signings (http://www.justbooks.org/holiday_catalog/page_4.htm) like she was supposed to, did the whole Published Author thing. But it wasn't enough to earn out. So, guys, who wants to step up and help out Mrs. Rowland, poor old Mr. Wilde, and the nice folks at Norfleet? Buy a copy of Marvelous Max, the Mansion Mouse (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964993449/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) now! (Soon to be a collector's item.)

The illustrations are really nice (they're by Wendy Rasmussen).

So.... I guess publicity isn't everything, is it?

[Joanclr]

Sigh.

Is there any hope for us mere mortals?

Some days I despair of my craft. (Then again, I have the flu so I am generally despairing of most things at the moment.)

[James D Macdonald]

Is there any hope for us mere mortals?

Yes. Every single published writer I know started in the same place -- as Joe Nobody in the slush pile.

The difference between them and, say, Mrs. Rowland, is that they did the work.

No amount of celebrity or publicity will overcome a poor book.

Rather than "paying her dues" by opening a checkbook (or a political sycophant's checkbook), Mrs. Rowland should have paid her dues by learning how to write.

There are some things money can't buy, and the respect of your audience is one of those things.

[wwwatcher]

Buy a copy of Marvelous Max, the Mansion Mouse now!

:ack That mouse eats better than me; I know it.:ack

[JuliePgh]

I'm trying to get a feel for whether I should be using metric or english when referring to distances. I'm inclined to use metric since I have several military characters, but I wonder if that creates confusion to most U.S. readers who aren't typically comfortable with metric. Also, is it too inconsistent to use both (metric for large distances and english for shorter ones)?

I'd appreciate your input as readers and writers? Thank you.

[paritoshuttam]

Hi,

My feeling is that using metres and kilometres gives a precise technical quality to the prose and using yards and miles gives it a more human touch... just my gut feeling, could be sheer nonsense to others :) So it depends on the context whether you want to give machine-like precision or approximate distances. If it's army talk, I would say go for the metric system (but I am not from US and am used to metric!).

- Paritosh.

[Yeshanu]

Use whatever units the characters in your novel would use. If your story is set in a country that uses the metric system and you use imperial (not English) measures, then you'll start to have readers throwing your book across the room, and Uncle Jim has already told us we don't want that!:jump

Ditto for the reverse.

If you're in a fantasy venue, you might want to look up the definition of the word "league," and if you're writing a nautical story, you'll want to know what a "fathom" is. And so on...

Research, research, research, and remain true to your story.

Ruth

[maestrowork]

If your character is from Europe, use metrics. If your character is American, use imperial. Now, the interesting thing would be if the American travels to Europe -- IMHO, you can then use either... My American protagonist went to Hong Kong, where they use metric system. But the protagonist still refers everything with yards and feet and miles, because that's what he understands.

[Jules Hall]

Please remember that, from the point of view of using the metric system, Britain is only half European. We sometimes use kilograms and litres, but we also use pints, pounds and stone when the mood takes us. Milli/centimetres are frequently used, metres less so, and kilometres rarely -- miles are much more common.

Its all a mess if you ask me.

[Yeshanu]

My American protagonist went to Hong Kong, where they use metric system. But the protagonist still refers everything with yards and feet and miles, because that's what he understands.

Kind of like a middle-aged Canadian...

I grew up using imperial, and then Canada decided to switch measurements in order to keep up with the rest of the world.

My parents still use pounds and feet and inches and miles, my kids use kilograms and kilometers and cetimeters and such, and I need to have everything (especially the temperature) in both measurements so I understand exactly what I'm dealing with...:ack

I agree -- it's all a big mess here, too!

[PixelFish]

A league is three miles. I used to do maps on college ruled notebook paper and every one of those lines was a league apart. (No pun intend.) :)

Yeshanu: My friends in Calgary use imperial for height and weight (ie I am 5'5" and 130 lbs) and metric for everything else. ("Do you think the temperature will get above 30?")

[Yeshanu]

Pixel,

I don't know why it is, but it's like dieting... The pounds and ounces are harder to get rid of than any other measure.:grin

I travel 20 kilometres to work, it's about 10 degrees C here (the temperature really dropped overnight), I have four litres of milk in my fridge... I'm even getting to the point where I buy meat in kilograms, but I weigh xxx (too many) pounds and am five feet four inches tall.

I can't explain it...

But back to writing. This is where a little research goes a long way. If you're writing a book about a Canadian, and you have that person say, "I'm 163 cm tall," (we do use the metric system, after all) a Canadian reader will probably go :wha and throw your book across the room...:smack

And we don't want that, do we?

[PixelFish]

Speaking of things that Canadians say and don't say, naturally when other folks here in the States hear that I lived in Canada, they immediately start tacking "eh" onto all of their sentences just to tease. (Ever seen that Molson commercial where the guy shirts his co-worker for saying "eh" too many times--I love that one.)

But in Western Canada or at least in Alberta, the only people that tack "eh" onto their sentences with any regularity are the older generation. Similar to the use of the metric system, the word "eh" isn't necessarily endemic to all Canadian conversations. If one were to write a story with younger Canadian readers and throw that in for veracity, it would come off as forced.

(BTW, for an example of fictional Canadians who don't come off with the forced "eh" dialogue--the For Better or For Worse family, drawn and written by Lynn Johnson. They are Canadian, but they don't run through their comic strip sprinkling metric stats left and right, nor do they use the word, "eh" overmuch. Instead, you can tell that they are Canadian by their actions and environment and cultural touchstones--such as Grandpa Jim's participating in Remembrance Day Parades. The dialogue isn't a "stereotypical Canadian" sort of dialogue, but natural everyday dialogue. Sometimes it gets a little silly, or sappy, or wise or whatever, but it's always something I could imagine real people saying.)

I think this is where the advice that you should do your research but not make your readers suffer for it comes into play. Whatever facts that one finds should be sprinkled in like a potent spice.

[macalicious731]

Yes, not to mention the elongated pronunciation of 'about' as 'aboot.'

[Pthom]

Ever been to Fargo, Minnehsoohta?

[ChunkyC]

Yes, not to mention the elongated pronunciation of 'about' as 'aboot.'
I'm a 48 year old Canadian and have been back and forth across Canada repeatedly over the last three decades and have never, ever heard a Canadian pronounce 'about' like that. This is a perfect example of getting the details right. That 'aboot' thing is a myth, pure and simple, and any Canadian reading something that uses it will know the writer has not done his or her research.

This principle applies to all the details a writer puts in a novel, they must not contradict known facts, otherwise you risk alienating your reader.

[Pthom]

Chunky:

Of course no one says aboot (unless talking about footwear), but to my Oregonian ears, the pronunciation of 'about' in British Columbia, anyway, is closer to the 'oo' sound than the 'ow' sound I hear. That said, it is still off-putting to create dialogue with an attempt to reproduce the phonetics of regional dialect. Better, I think, is to identify the character as Canadian, Oregonian, Laotian emmigrant, etc, and let the reader's ear transpose the words on the page into what she imagines the character should sound like.

[macalicious731]

Sorry, that last little bit - "aboot" - was in line with Pixel's note that if you say you're from Canada, everyone will automatically start saying "eh?" after everything. People also tend to lapse into "aboot" as well. Good to know it's not really pronounced that way, eh?

Uh... sorry. :o

[JuliePgh]

Everyone,
Thank you for your input.

I'm writing SF&F (my novel takes place on another world), so I don't have to worry about being true to Europe/US/Canada, etc as the discussion has gone so far. In either case you have all given me interesting insight into the topic.

I'll have to look to my characters and world and decide what "fits" best. For me personally, I have no trouble relating to kilometers or miles for long distances, but prefer inches/feet for shorter ones. This is what was coming through in my writing and I was worrying about inconsistency as a result. Perhaps I'm adding a bit of realism given the input from our Canadian friends?

Again, thank you for your help!

[ChunkyC]

Pthom, exactly. Dialect is one example of how attempting to catch the flavour of a region can fail if you're not careful. You also make a good point about how persons can 'hear' differently, based in part on their own manner of speaking. I don't hear any 'oo' when I'm in B.C., but then, I'm not predisposed to listen for it. I'm going to have to mull that over.

Macalicious, I was not really insulted, I apologize if I came off sounding that way. I saw it as a perfect example of how people sometimes take 'urban legends' as truth, or of how something subtle can get blown out of proportion and take on the aura of truth. In a sense it's understandable that it happens. In this case, 'aboot' is a caricature of the subtle difference in pronunciation Pthom pointed out. I'm sure I have a preconception of a Tennessee accent in my head that would be shattered were I to ever visit Nashville.

I guess what it comes down to is that settling for what we think is true can have a detrimental effect on our writing, as I discovered for myself just now. I never hear the 'oo' so I assumed no one else did.

Enlightening place, this.

[HConn]

I've heard "aboot."

[pixie juice]

"aboot" is just as much a Northern US thing, as a Canadian thing. I hear it all the time, especially from people in the UP of Michigan.

Accents are funny in that you wouldn't even know you said a word differently than anybody else, until someone else told you you did.

I didn't know that people from Toledo, Ohio, had a weird kind of their own accent until my husband (from England) told me that we did. We say our o's kind of close mouthed. Like "Toledoew" or "helloew" or "let's goew". You'd probably be able to tell the difference if you came here, but I never noticed that until he told me, and I've lived in OH/MI all my life.

But, as all of this applies to writing: I don't know that I would ever try to write an accent into dialogue. That's something I'd just like to let the reader imagine on her own. Tell us where the speaker is from, and then let the personality of the dialogue speak for itself, I guess.

[ChunkyC]

let the personality of the dialogue speak for itself
I think you have it there, Pixie. Word choices, cadence, all can evoke a sense of place.

[macalicious731]

Macalicious, I was not really insulted, I apologize if I came off sounding that way.

Oh no! No need to apologize... I didn't think you were really upset. The "sorry" came from the additional "eh" added to the end of my sentence... another Americanized Canadian thing ... yeah... okay, I'm going to stop talking. (;

[JoannaC]

Hi everyone, I am new to this board but have been lurking (and reading) for over a week. I have just completed my review of this entire thread and am ready to join in the discussion.

Firstly, I want to thank James for the incredible amount of work he has put into this thread. It is a fabulous tutorial and discussion and I had a happy three days reading it from page 1 all the way through.

I have a few questions, but a little background first. I started my career as a professional journalist (although I am getting out of that now) and one of my earliest writing experiences was as an intern at a very big Canadian magazine. I am so grateful I had that opportunity. The editor-in-chief, who is a brilliant woman, has a very business-like approach to editing that was a good fit for me personality-wise and taught me a very practical lesson early on. Basically, she had no tolerance at all for “I am an artiste” types of writers. Her magazine was a business. It had a target audience so well-defined that before my pitch session (interns got a pitch session at the start of their term and worked on the approved stories for the remainder of their time there) she told me to pretend I was a 37-year-old housewife in rural Alberta with an 8-year-child, and that it’s September. What would be on my mind? What a great lesson to a writer just starting out: have fun, write well, show flair---but do it in a way that will get you printed. That’s not selling out at all. It’s just selling.

I had been writing fiction literally since I was a little kid, and later that same year I had the chance to take a writing class with a real author. She had written two of those immigrant family saga novels so popular in Canada, was married to a big name in Canlit, and was just SO not my type at all :-) She was a genre snob, for one thing, and she hated my work because it was too whimsical. I became stubborn and our classes turned into a sort of battle of the wills---as one example, she accused my first story of having not enough dialogue, so for the second one I wrote ONLY dialogue :-) Of course, I rationally know that there is a proper balance between the two. But I wanted to see what she would say about my dialogue. As it turns out, she developed a grudging respect for the way I kept putting myself out there for criticism from her, and she later told me she did find me talented but wanted me to “aim higher than romances and mysteries.” Lesson learned: just because they are published authors does not mean they are g-d, and it certainly does not mean they are always right. For the record I quite enjoy romances and mysteries, especially when they occur in the same book, which I understand is quite a popular trend right now (Kay Hooper, Nora Roberts, Harlequin Intrigue, Karen Harper etc).

Lesson three was Nanowrimo, which I did last year, in which I learned the important idea that 200 pages of people having conversations does not equal a plot. My writing group editor came back to me after reading the draft with many glowing comments about my snappy dialogue. Then she shifted uncomfortably in her chair, looked down and said “now, about the rest of it…” The plot went something like this: a bunch of people who have not seen each other in several years reunite, and spend most of the book yelling at each other. And…well, that’s really the whole plot. I like writing dialogue and know it is my strong point, so I seemed to favor it a little too much. Lesson learned: you cannot write 50,000 words and fail to learn something. Identify your weak points, and work on them. Oh, and if anyone wants to know more about my Nanowrimo experience, my first paid piece of the year was a write-up about it in the e-zine published by Holly Lisle’s web site. And interesting aside, I got a personal note from the editor after I submitted it in which she praised me to the high heavens for following the submission guidelines (i.e. sending it double spaced and in the right font). It seems a lot of people don’t follow guidelines. You can earn serious brownie points just by doing what you’re told!

I know this post is veering on the long side, so I’ll slip in my first question and then sign off for now. I am wondering what you think of writing exercises. People always give me books with them (and in fact one contains nearly every ‘lesson’ we did in the writing class I took with the well-known author. Stunning coincidence?) So---waste of time, or useful skill-builder?

Joanna

p.s. if anyone is inetersted in some great writing links and article links, I compiled some for my writing group here:
www.geocities.com/ficbot/toronto.htm (http://www.geocities.com/ficbot/toronto.htm)

[wwwatcher]

"Yes, not to mention the elongated pronunciation of 'about' as 'aboot.'"

Thanks for clearing this up Chunky. Americans have said this to me and puzzled me as well. I've never heard a Canadian say about like that either.

But there is a point here - if Americans pronounce Toronto wrong we Canadians won't point it out or correct you.

[aka eraser]

I have a lot of American friends. Invariably, after our first or second phone or in-person conversation they tease me about "oot n' aboot" eh.

The Canadian ear simply doesn't hear it that way. To ours, the American "ow" (as in "Ow! That hurt!") in their "a-bowt" sounds odd.

I take no umbrage at their exaggeration of our pronounciation. They take none from mine.

Our Newfies now. Lard t'underin' jaysus! There's an accent you can drown in.

Joanne: Welcome to the boards eh? A couple more hosers here and we'll RULE! ;)

[Pthom]

a bunch of people who have not seen each other in several years reunite, and spend most of the book yelling at each other. . . . kinda reminds me of that movie from some years back: "The Big Chill." Or, perhaps "My Dinner With Andre."

[pianoman5]

Canadians don't say aboot.

But they do say something that is not 'about'.

It's the one surefire method for other English speakers to distinguish Canadians from Americans (northern borderers excepted).

It's closer, perhaps, to 'abaouwt'

[maestrowork]

I don't think all Canadians say "aboot" just as I don't think all Texans say "y'all." But I have met enough Canadians to know that they do say something other than "about." I think it's cute.

[macalicious731]

It's closer, perhaps, to 'abaouwt'

:lol Piano, that means nothing to my American ears.

[wwwatcher]

I wouldn't say I'm angry over Americans pointing out differences in pronunciation. I just wonder why they do it. Do they point out all the words that an Englishman says differently when they're talking to him? Do northern Americans point out differences in pronunciation to southern Americans? I don't think all Americans do it either. My point would be, aren't we all speaking English and aren't these all different accents (some might call them dialects). Do all Americans say "about" the same way? Chinese Americans? Pakistani Americans? French Americans?
Then why would these Americans that point out "aboot" think all Canadians said it that way? Do they mean there's something wrong with the Canadians saying it that way? Are they just noticing the difference in accent? Do they think everyone should say it the same? Or are they just noticing that some Canadians may have an accent different from theirs? What is their intent in pointing it out? That's what I would like to know. The answer to this may be different for each of them.
By the way, every American living in the United States that I've met has a bit of an accent to my ear anyway. Woopy! Big deal! I understand what they are saying so the only time I might point it out is if I tell them I like their accent. To say that Canadians all say "aboot" is like saying that all Americans say crawdad. This is why the comment is puzzling.

We have Chinese Canadians, Innuit Canadians, Italian Canadians, etc. and as Chunky pointed out we have regional dialects and pronunciations. They are not nearly as marked as some American dialects and English dialects are but they are there.

Toronto, by the way, is a native word, so we're probably all saying it wrong.

Watcher

[Jules Hall]

Its an interesting discussion. As an English person who has never visited any part of America I have little appreciation of how the accents and dialects vary across the continent. I can distinguish stereotypical New York and Texas accents, but beyond that I haven't much clue :) .

I think most people from outside of a region tend to stereotype its occupants, at least in terms of language use. English characters in US TV programs can be very amusing.

[John Buehler]

I wouldn't say I'm angry over Americans pointing out differences in pronunciation. I just wonder why they do it.For the same reason that we keep inventing stuff, pushing the envelope of science and technology, and understanding the world. Americans are 'picky' and observant. We notice stuff. We're intrigued by little variations. Our brains say that it's 'important' to recognize the difference in 'aboot' versus 'about' just as we feel that it's important to recognize the difference between 0.001 and 0.002 in the level of salinity in tears.

It's just the way the brains of many Americans work. Lots of people around the world are this way, but I believe that the people who chose to come to America prior to 1900 tended to be the sort who notice the difference between 'about' and 'aboot' enough to comment on it. Because they were picky enough to leave wherever they were to come to America.

Do northern Americans point out differences in pronunciation to southern Americans?They sure do.

JB

[maestrowork]

Of course we point out all the accents, even in America. There's no reason to get all upset and indignant about it. Everyone has an accent; there are all kinds of regional accents that we comment on or make fun of. Texan accents are fair game. In Western PA we make sure that people from Pittsburgh know they have an accent... then there's the general southern and northern accents (Bostonian accents are very fun to listen to).

I seriously don't understand why people get all upset about it. Most of the "teasing" are done tongue-in-cheek (so to speak) and completely friendly jabs. I'm sure other countries make fun of how Americans talk as well, just as we make fun of everybody else.

[madeya ru]

Some of it may be that many areas of the US don't believe they have an accent, except for the obvioius that is pointed out - Texas, New York, Boston, etc. I grew up in PA Dutch country and believed I talked like everyone else. Then I moved to CA for four years and when I went back home, everyone told me I had an accent. Actually, I had lost the PA Dutch accent that I grew up with.

[JuliePgh]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Do they point out all the words that an Englishman says differently when they're talking to him?<hr></blockquote>
A lot of times, yes! But nicely of course, as a point of interest and fascination, never as a put down! It's a great way to learn and often a great conversation piece.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Americans are 'picky' and observant. <hr></blockquote>

I don't think we're picky, but I do think we take a national pride in our melting pot and the many accents we have within the country. If anything, we have a fascination with accents from state to state, or region to region. Why shouldn't we be just as fascinated with our wonderful neighbors to the North? I don't think anyone here means to insult by saying All Canadians do this or All Americans do that, etc. And if someone does make a blanket statement, I would suggest taking the opportunity to enlighten that person instead of getting upset with or chastising him/her.


Maestrowork,
If you don't mind my asking, where exactly are you from in Western PA? Quite frankly, I've never known Western PA people to point out our "accent" although I've had New Yorker friends do it all the time, saying it's a Midwest accent (most of us don't even consider Pittsburgh mid-west).

And to expand on the geographical impact of accents, within Pittsburgh we have our own range of accents that we make fun of among ourselves. The Steelers (our football team) are called the Stillers. We don't go Downtown; we go Dahntahn. We don't use Towels after showering, we use Tiles. There was a book published some years ago about how to speak Pittsburghese, and most Pittsburghers I know always know how to have a good laugh at ourselves, almost, as said before, to the point of pride.

For those who appreciate grammar, a very common problem here are sentences constructed as follows:
The car needs washed.
The house needs painted.
You'll hear Pittsburghers saying this all the time, including some teachers, college professors, doctors, and so on without even realizing it's incorrect! Here, it is accepted and natural. My mom taught English in college and believe me, although I grew up here, I was NOT allowed to use this very common and incorrect structure!

[maestrowork]

Julie, like you, I am from Pittsburgh (still have ties and families and properties there). And you're right, some people from New York or LA can tell immediately if someone's from Pittsburgh. And I can tell if someone's from the Bronx -- I used to work with a guy with a VERY strong "Nu Yuork" accent.

Here's a classic Pittsburghese (I'm fudging with the spelling...):

Q: Djijet?
A: Nodju?

[JuliePgh]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> I used to work with a guy with a VERY strong "Nu Yuork" accent.<hr></blockquote>
Most of the New Yokers I've known have been from Lon' Gisland.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Here's a classic Pittsburghese (I'm fudging with the spelling...):

Q: Djijet?
A: Nodju?
<hr></blockquote>

You have to explain that to the non Pittsburghers, or they'll think you're from Mars (which is located in Pennsylvania, by the way).
If I've picked up your spelling correctly, I'd say this is the typical:

Q: Did you eat yet?
A: No. Did you?

[Ashnistrike]

Americans are fascinated by variation in accents because we're monolingual. If we comment on the differences, we can pretend it counts as speaking more than one language. :)

Attempting to move this back towards the topic, I was just rereading Aliens and Linguists. Meyers complains that SF authors will do just about anything to avoid showing someone learning a new language (RNA pills, hypnosleep, the ubiquitous universal translator, etc.). I've done this myself, although I've tried to make my translator a plot *point* rather than just a plot *device*. How do other people handle this problem? Sometimes the plot permits a few months of language training that can be skipped with "...a few months later...," but sometimes not.

Ashni

[JuliePgh]

In my SF stories, I leave it as fact that there is a common language which has prevailed over time through trade, colonization, and so on. Much like English has spread throughout the world as a major language. That doesn't mean other languages aren't predominant in their own region or even that everyone speaks English, but that there is one language which is widespread enought to be used for interactions between these regions/worlds. Then, I can use the presence of other languages to complicate the plot if required. I think it depends on whether you want to focus on languages or use the differences as a tool in the story. If language is a focus, it could be a lot of fun making use of mispronounciations, incorrect word choice and so on. If you've ever traveled and tried using that language of the country, you may have experienced this yourself. For example:

When I was 12, I went to Germany to stay with family friends for a few weeks. I had limited German behind me, and used it when I could. I once said "Ich bin heiss" which word for word translates to " I am hot." What I was actually saying was "I'm in heat." (I believe the words don't hold the same meaning if a man says them.) I was quite embarassed of course, especially considering I had been saying this for weeks before someone finally corrected me and told me "Ich habe heiss" is correct!

When I was in Japan, I used my limited amount of Japanese but the people were so appreciative that a westerner even tried to speak their language, that I got the warmest greetings and amazed looks. Who knows what interesting sentances I actually threw together without realizing it. I left blissfully ignorant of any mistakes, knowing now matter what I hadd said, I had had a great time!

[reph]

In The Doomsday Book, Connie Willis's protagonist time-travels to medieval England. She has a physical device that translates spoken Middle English into modern English, but it isn't perfect. So she has to figure out what the device is trying to say, and she bumbles along, learning a little Middle English along with a little of everything else she encounters that's unfamiliar. The details contribute to the reader's impression of a person plopped down in a strange culture and trying to cope. It's all done well - because it was done by Connie Willis.

[JuliePgh]

When writing a synopsis, should I follow the sequencing in the book and only reveal information to the agent as it is revealed to the person reading through the full novel? Or can/should any of the character's motivations be revealed in the synopsis earlier than they actually appear in the novel for the purpose of explaining his/her actions?

Does anyone have any sample synopsis (not a chapter by chapter breakdown) that he/she would like to share?

[Yeshanu]

Joanna,

Welcome to the board.

The editor-in-chief, who is a brilliant woman, has a very business-like approach to editing that was a good fit for me personality-wise and taught me a very practical lesson early on. Basically, she had no tolerance at all for “I am an artiste” types of writers.

If you learned that lesson, you have a good chace of making it as a novelist.

And thanks for reading the whole thread from start to finish. I wish more "newbies" would do the same, on this and other threads. It cuts down on the flaming posts that say in effect, "We covered this thirty-five pages ago!"

Looking forward to more input from a fellow Canuck.

Ruth

[Yeshanu]

I am wondering what you think of writing exercises. People always give me books with them (and in fact one contains nearly every ‘lesson’ we did in the writing class I took with the well-known author. Stunning coincidence?) So---waste of time, or useful skill-builder?

For me it depends -- if it's a basic skill, no, but if it's a more advanced skill, then perhaps.

For example, I'm now working through a book called Adios, Strunk and White. The authors are introducing complex sentence forms, and doing the exercises is much more useful than just reading examples.

[Jules Hall]

Julie> I think a synopsis should follow the same order as the book, in order to allow the reader to appreciate how you develop any suspense in the story. Not that I'm an expert, but it _seems_ right to do it that way! :)

On the subject of grammatical problems in regional dialects, I spent formative years of my life in Cornwall, where there are some peculiar perversions of the English language in common use. Particularly in terms of pronoun and preposition usage:

Where'd'you get they to?
I was up Truro and saw 'em in shop window.
I'll get over and get me some dreckly.

(Dreckly is a contraction of 'directly', which has been described as 'similar to the Spanish mañana, only without the sense of urgency')

[Fresie]

'similar to the Spanish mañana, only without the sense of urgency' <img border=0 src="http://www.absolutewrite.com/images/Emoterofl5.gif" />

Dreckly, hm. I must remember that.

[sfsassenach]

Americans are fascinated by variation in accents because we're monolingual. If we comment on the differences, we can pretend it counts as speaking more than one language.

You should get out more. Most American cities are far from monolingual...

I'd say that most people are, if not fascinated, at least interested in [or sometimes perplexed by] the many accents within a shared language.

I live in Costa Rica and once helped "translate" the English of an Australian for a Costa Rican tourist guide who was fluent in English but found an Aussie accent unintelligible.

I also met a Peruvian woman in Nicaragua who spoke fluent English, but with a Dutch accent! She'd learned English while working in the Netherlands.

[robertquiller]

Out of curiosity:

Whatever happened to the venerable patriarch of this thread?

[alinasandor]

You know, I was wondering the same thing.
Uncle Jim, where are you?!
:shrug

[aka eraser]

If I remember correctly, I think Jim said something about a conference or workshop or something looming on his near-horizon.

[evanaharris]

Whatever happened to the venerable patriarch of this thread?

'Probably writing,' he deadpanned






bloody typos

[robertquiller]

Evan,

This is a sacred thread regarding Uncle Jim. I think it ill-advised to incite the mob that hangs around these parts by calling him a deadpan...

~ R.Q.

[evanaharris]

Robert,

Sacred cows are always the first to the barbecue.

Thanks for the heads-up on the typo. Miffed my whole joke.

-Evan

[wwwatcher]

"I am wondering what you think of writing exercises. People always give me books with them (and in fact one contains nearly every ‘lesson’ we did in the writing class I took with the well-known author. Stunning coincidence?) So---waste of time, or useful skill-builder?"

When I was younger I worked through a lot of exercises and read and applied Strunk and White, The Elements of Style to my writing. I also copied parts of books that I liked just to keep the information (kind of a summary of the info in a book).

Then I went out into the world to work, thinking I'd have to do art and writing once I'd put a roof over my head and food in my stomach.

Now, that I've come back to writing much of these skills have stayed with me. But there is at least one thing I run into in each short story that needs work (It feels like it can be better, or I realize that I'm not actually sure that I'm punctuating it right). Then I go looking for some exercises or examples of what I'm weak on and work at them until I feel confident. Yes, I find them helpful.

They can be part of the million words we need to write.

Watcher:thumbs

Oh, by the way, the British say we Canadians have ice and snow in our accents!

And about Jim...
I'm guessing he might have given us "the great place to fish" as a hint that he might be taking a vacation. Do you think maybe?

[JoannaC]

On a similar vein to "about/aboot" and it being a giveaway about authorial preparation, I read a Star Trek novel years ago by Peter David in which he used parts of the Jewish seder plate as names for his villains. I am sure he thought they were great exotic-sounding alien names, but I think he neglected to take into account that every single Jewish person reading the book would immediately know where he had filched them from. Personally, I did know---and I found it quite difficult to take the villains seriously when their names were essentially Bitter Herb (the leader) and his cohorts Boiled Egg, Shankbone and Green Leafy Vegetable.

[wwwatcher]

Good one Joanna!


:rofl

[LiamJackson]

"Shankbone" I can handle. But dueling to the death with some nefarious criminal named "Hard Boiled Egg" might prove my undoing.

[HollyB]

I believe Uncle Jim is stuffing many, many books in little boxes, wrapping china in newspaper, and eating pizza off paper plates.


nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/ (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/)

[Editrx]

Uncle Jim is indeed helping with many boxes, many many boxes, and yet more boxes.

He is off being a mensch for some of our friends (see Making Light) (http://www.nielsenhayden.com/makinglight). Alas, my back and my desk covered in mss. that need typesetting and/or copyediting didn't let me join the moving party.

(This is Nancy -- hello. I am an old friend of Jim's, and am a freelance editor (no, I don't buy books; I just fiddle with 'em, so to speak) and production maven for a couple of publishing houses.)

[aka eraser]

Welcome Nancy. Any friend of Jim's is no doubt a brain worth picking. I hope you'll visit and chime in often.

[Editrx]

Thanks for the welcome! I will try to at least peek in here when I'm avoiding work on my desk. :)

(I'm sure Jim has told you guys all about "waxing the cat," right?)

[Yeshanu]

Waxing the cat? No, not that I can remember.

Quick, tell us before he digs himself out from under those boxes...:jump

[Editrx]

Ah...... Waxing the cat.

Ever have That Book sitting on your desk (so to speak), and you do anything to avoid writing? Wash the dishes (five times a day), mow the yard, trim the bushes, take a walk, build a new barn from scratch .... ANYTHING but write the manuscript that is driving you nuts, taunting you, whining to you, telling you that you have to come back and write -- but you just can't. Avoidance behavior.

When you've done everything you possibly can (in my case, all the silver in the house has been polished to perfection), you ...

... wax the cat.

[btinternet]

I always heard it as 'flossing the cat' but same concept.

(also a terrific excuse for avoiding social engagements one wishes to avoid - "I'm terribly sorry, I can't come that evening, I'm flossing the cat")

Howdy all.

BT

[Kate Nepveu]

Also cat-vacuuming (or, on the other side of the pond, cat-hoovering).

[LiamJackson]

Grew up with the cat-waxing thing. Thought it was an old, obscure military analogy/axiom.

And a belated welcome to Editrx. Hope you enjoy your time in the AW happy house.

Oh, and Jim D., have I got a deal for you. Letter on the way.

[ChunkyC]

A welcome to all the new folks. Nice to meet you all. Also nice to see that the linguistic discussion led to some interesting insights of value to us writers. I especially like what Joanna said about using Jewish words for characters in a Star Trek novel.

I think this subject interests me so much because my writing tends to be dialogue-heavy, so I am always on the lookout for ways to make speech in fiction more interesting, more flavourful.

Oh, and Dreckly? Things like that are priceless nuggets for a writer. If you can find a way to throw one in like a potent spice, your whole piece heats up. Great stuff.

My cat is far too shiny, by the way. Better get back to the book....

[HollyB]

Welcome Editrx!

One of the joys of this message board is that it's a mix of experienced and clueless writers (myself being the latter) who share a common love of the written word. Your expertise will certainly further enrich our discussion! Welcome!

[laurence ashton]

Hello,

I'm just going taking a moment to give this introductory post. I've read from the beginning (it took me about a week to get through all 85 pgs.) and just finished. So:

My name is Lauren (penname Laurence Ashton) and I've been writing for years, so I wouldn't consider myself a newbie. Currently I'm employing BIC to get through a novel I started in high school that I needed to recycle. It's a fantasy and the universe I'd created had gotten bigger than the plot, so that needed to change. :nerd

BIC got me through chapter three of this novel when I seemed to be stuck-in-a-moment!planningfrenzy. Whoot. I have great and t00by love for BIC.... Although I feel like I cheated because I don't write in a linear fashion (the times that I do, I get stuck in debates with myself, which is a terrible form of writer's block). So really chapter three doesn't literally mean third chapter--yet.

Still, I'm getting there. I've finished the prologue, chapter three, part of chapter one, and various scenes. Note: the prologue, I realized after reading this, is indispensible, so it will be renamed Chapter One. Thanks for upthread!comments that helped to clarify the prologue subject.

That's all basically. I've been staring at the rather distracting purple bouncing... thing (:jump ) for the past ten minutes, and I think I need to post this before I become a jumpingpurpleball!zombie and am completely in its thrall.

Thanks to Uncle Jim for this thread. Thanks to everyone else for helping to make it so great. I loff the comments.

lash

PS-- quick question before I forget: In a third person past tense novel, is it too distracting to have (a) dream sequence(s) as such:

Character A dreamed:
CONTENT OF DREAM IN THIRD PERSON PRESENT TENSE
Continuation of narrative in third person past tense

Thanks!

[Marcusthefish]

I'd like to add my voice to the chorus of thankful newcomers to this discussion--Uncle Jim, your advice and examples have been more interesting and useful than 90% of the writing books I've read.

I've been an SF reader since I found Time for the Stars in the library when I was twelve years old (I think that was the one that infected me--it might have been the Chronicles of Narnia), and got the writing bug in my second year of college. I've been starting novels for more than 10 years, and after three years at my latest attempt (no. 5), I think I've figured out how to build a whole story. Anyway, I finally have a complete draft that I'm slowly chipping into shape.

My impetus isn't money, fame, or dedication to art or craft. I just want to make it to the top of the Geek Hierarchy www.brunching.com/geekhierarchy.html (http://www.brunching.com/geekhierarchy.html)

Thanks again to Uncle Jim and everyone who's contributed.

MTF

[Jules Hall]

Character A dreamed:

I would try to avoid explicitly stating that something's a dream. Unless your character is a lucid dreamer, they're probably not aware at the time that it is a dream...

I would just make sure there were cues in the text to let the reader know it's a dream. Like people turning into small furry animals, that kind of thing.

[laurence ashton]

Ah! Thanks for mentioning that. The character does know that she's dreaming. It's a major plot point in the book because she doesn't really sleep; sleeping, for this character, is something completely different from what it actually is for us.

Wondering now: does that change your answer at all, or do you still think that it's a bad idea?

Thanks again,

Lauren

[Yeshanu]

MTF,

:rofl

Thanks for the link. However...

Could you please edit your post to take out the ). at the end of the url? That way, people can click on it and not end up with an "error" message.

Until he edits, if you want to click on the link, when you get the error message, go up into the address bar, remove the two offending characters, and press enter.

It's funny... :lol

[Yeshanu]

Lauren,

Regarding dreams. If I was going to write a dream into a novel (and I may yet, folks, just not as the opening scene) I wouldn't write it in present tense and tell the readers "Character A dreamed..." That's telling, not showing. I might have the character recount the dream in dialogue, if it was short, or I might put it in the same tense and person as the novel, possibly with the dream sequence in italics to set it off from the rest of the novel.

In my own novel, the protag has nightmares that later prove prophetic. I think I'm going to insert a little bit of the nightmare at several points in the novel, in italics, so the reader knows that this is a dream.

[Jules Hall]

I'd probably write something more like "<A> sensed that she was beginning to dream." and then follow that with a description (as Yeshanu said, in the same tense & POV style as the rest of the story) of the dream. It sounds to me as if you might have a lot of this, in which case I'd avoid using italics or fancy formatting for it, but make it clear where the dreams start and end in the prose itself.

[Editrx]

Re: dreams.

I've had dream sequences run across my production desk that were in italics (quick giveaway that it's not standard narrative), begun with a prose line such as, "And I started to dream..." (a bit bulky, in my opinion, but some people prefer this trick), and dreams that were not set off in any manner whatsoever except for a line break before and after (in which you have to be very clever to make it clear it's a dream, but it certainly can be done).

There is no right or wrong way to do dream sequences; chef's choice.

[Editrx]

Uncle Jim passed through here a few hours ago on his way home. I can report he's been properly caffeinated, hugged, and given chocolate biscuits (in that order, of course).

He should reappear within a day or so (or sooner) here.

[Yeshanu]

:jump :grin

[James D Macdonald]

Did ya miss me?

Time to start catching up....

[James D Macdonald]

I'd use Metric if the character would think in metric, English if the character would think in english. This is a chacterization problem.

[James D Macdonald]

Do you know how Canada got its name? These three Canadians were trying to think of a name for their country, so the got a Scrabble set. The first one reached into the bag, pulled out a tile and said, "C, eh?" The second pulled out a tile and said, "N, eh?" The third pulled a tile and said, "D, eh?"

On dialect -- you don't need it. Use word choice and sentence rhythm then let your readers provide the right amount of accent for them.

<hr>

As you know, Tennessee Williams wrote his plays in dialect. Now imagine this: A group of students from the Sunny South, whose natural accents were the magnolia-scented tones that Williams was trying to reproduce. Imagine them trying to pronounce the the written dialect phonetically. Trust me, it is weird sounding.

You can derived Rudyard Kipling's personal accent by reading the dialect he uses in Captains Courageous, if you know what a Gloucester fisherman's natural accent sounds like. You have to read the dialog with a British/Indian accent if you're going to come up with something at all accurate.

Dialect was formerly used more often in fiction than it currently is. Styles change. Please, if you're planning to write in dialect, reconsider your decision.

[James D Macdonald]

Hi, Joanna --

I am wondering what you think of writing exercises.

First, no writing is wasted. Any writing you do can teach you something of the art if you let it.

Second, writing exercises can help get you past the blank screen or blank sheet of paper problem. Some people freeze when faced with that faceless nothing. So use 'em if they get you going.

Beyond that, it's my opinion that sitting down and writing a story all the way to "The End" will teach you more than any number of writing exercises.

[James D Macdonald]

Hiya, Laurence!

In a third person past tense novel, is it too distracting to have (a) dream sequence(s) as such:

Character A dreamed:
CONTENT OF DREAM IN THIRD PERSON PRESENT TENSE
Continuation of narrative in third person past tense


That could work. Try it, see how it reads, see what your beta readers have to say.

[robertquiller]

:clap

-----------------------

Iustitia, Consilium et Aequitas

[Fresie]

Hello, Uncle Jim and everybody,

I'm going slightly mad, la la la. Can somebody help me please? Could the more experienced novel writers share with me (and all of us) how you go about saving, backing-up and organizing your novel files, both electronic and hard copy? Mine at the moment seem to have a life of their own and reproduce at leisure. More than that, sometimes I have drafts on disk that are only slight variations of each other, so sorting them out turns into a find ten differences game. G-r-r-r! <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eek.gif" />

I've just spent the entire evening glueing one chapter draft together out of four different versions sketched earlier. To say I'm annoyed is an understatement.

Please, ladies and gentlemen -- how do you control your drafts and sketches and keep them in order? I inevitably end up with three or four backups of each chapter or scene and each of them by some mysterious reason suffers consequent changes (either I mistakenly grab the wrong disquette or the stories just keep on developing on their own while I'm not looking). <img border=0 src="http://www.absolutewrite.com/images/emoteDisappear.gif" />

Thank you!

Fresie

[maestrowork]

I use file folders with version numbers and dates embedded in the name.

I keep my drafts in one file (I don't have one file for each chapter, etc.). Again, the version # and dates are in the file names.

I also back them up on CD-ROMS as a group. I don't just back up individual files. Again, each version gets their own CD-ROM.

[JoannaC]

I have my whole novel in one file. I write on my alphasmart (I get too distracted writing on my computer) and do a quick edit when I upload the alphasmart file. Sometimes I will leave gapsd which I indicate with an XX (for example, in my current project I know the villains need a few POV chapters and I know where but I have not decided what to do with them yet, so I just put the XX as a place-holder because then when I am ready to write, I can just do a find for the XX and jump right to that spot). I have been giving pages to my writing group partner as I write them and making minor changes. I will probably not start a second file until the whole thing is done and I am ready to do major edits. Then I will save the as polished as it can be without major edits draft and begin a new file for the major edits draft.

[reph]

Fresie, you have hit on the great advantage of flash fiction.

[James D Macdonald]

For me, the hard-copy printout of the day's work (made at the end of each day) is the official version.

Those printout pages go, hole-punched, in a binder. Each page has, as part of its header, the filename.

Filenames: Chap1.wpd, chap2.wpd, etc. Next version: chap1_1.wpd, then chap1_2.wpd, chap1_3.wpd ... then chap1_1_1.wpd and so on, as high as it needs to go.

When it's nearing the end, Final1.wpd, final2.wpd, and so on.

Files go in folders, on two different computers, with a floppy-disk backup of each file.

[Beaver]

I also have an alphasmart that I use to write on, i like that i can go anywhere and write, then upload the file.

I got it as a high school graduation gift to take notes on in my lecture, which never happened. I ended up only using it on my writing.

That's cool, i wondered if anyone else used that sort of thing. I have a laptop computer, but the alphasmart is more portable.

Good luck in writing. I'm not having as great of luck, all of the files on it are dedicated to different stories (most of them anyway).

Beaver :thumbs

[John Buehler]

One file per manuscript, copied weekly to a removable 64MB thumb drive, with the filename TITLE Manuscript 1.doc, TITLE Manuscript 2.doc, etc. I happily delete stuff that I've written if I don't like it. If I want it back, I'll rewrite it, and it'll be better than the first incarnation.

I do the same thing with other critical data on my computer.

(Is there any reason that this isn't its own topic?)

JB

[James D Macdonald]

From Another Thread (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=639.to pic&start=21&stop=34):

The over-all rule is that every word in your novel should advance the plot, support the theme, or reveal character.

Vulgar language is just a special case of dialect.

The author must take his/her audience into account. The reader is a character in your book. You cast the reader the same way you cast any of your other characters, the same way you cast the author as a character.

<HR>

The F-Word Song (http://members.aol.com/berrymanp/alyrics/fword.html)
<HR>

The language you use will be determined by

a) your genre,
b) your audience,
c) your artistic choices.

<hr>

It all varies. Remember the "reveal character" thing.

(Also, Steve is quite right -- Our purpose is to entertain and communicate.... If the readers have thrown our book across the room we've failed in our purpose.)

Now for examples:

In Tournament and Tower (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/WIZ2EXPT.HTM), the first line in the first draft read:

<Blockquote>
"This f*cking sucks," said young Randal as he threw another forkload of stinking sh*t over his shoulder.
</blockquote>

As submitted:

<Blockquote>
Slap! Randal swatted a stinging horsefly that had tried to make a meal from his shoulder.
</blockquote>

In Aquatech Warriors (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/swift6.htm), the first line in the first draft read:

<Blockquote>
"Jesus Christ, Tom, get your f*cking hands off my tits!" said dark-haired Mandy Coster.
</blockquote>

As submitted:

<Blockquote>
"You said we were going on a tropical vacation," Rick Cantwell grumbled good-naturedly to his friend Tom Swift.
</blockquote>

On the other-other hand, Tiger Cruise (http://www.swordsmith.com/books/tiger.html) has various military characters, ranging from the Captain's Wife (who would never use a vulgarity) down through junior enlisted who say things like "Those f*cking f*ckers aren't f*cking around!" right there in the printed book.

<hr>

In the real world I know an ex-Mormon who routinely swears like a truck driver, but who in moments of extreme stress and pain (like dropping something very heavy on a foot) will blurt out "Criminty!"

Off to literature again, Studs Terkel, on one book, has a Chicago gangster who, whenever he attempts to swear, automatically bows his head when he says "Jesus!"

That's characterization.

[SFEley]

Fresie wrote:
Please, ladies and gentlemen -- how do you control your drafts and sketches and keep them in order?
I'm a software developer in my other life, and I write in text files, so I find it easy and efficient to use a version control system (http://www.cvshome.org). This way I store all the changes I've ever made to a file; if I need to see what I did with a chapter back in May, I can view all the differences with a single command, or revert to any version I need.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[SRHowen]

I use seven 3.5 disks (each a diff color) and label them with ms name, draft number (those pesky draft numbers become important as you deal with agent and editor)(the draft you send as your final draft becomes draft one) and day of week. On Monday I back up to Monday's disk for what I am working on. I also do a daily backup of everything in my writing folder to CD. And I do a daily printout of what I have done that day and put in ring binder --print out in triple space--purpose is to be able to have enough space for editing later.

I also have an auto back up system for my computer--if it crashes it is only a matter of reloading. Though sometimes things have to be resorted a bit, but at least I have it there.

I used an alpha smart for several years until someone swiped it--bet they thought they were getting away with a lap top computer. Right now I don't have the funds to replace the thing.

Shawn

[JuliePgh]

I have always been taught never start a sentence with 'And' or 'Because.' Are these considered acceptable as good grammar now, or do they fall under what is considered style? Even if used sparingly, should they be avoided in a novel's opening page?

[aka eraser]

I file these usages under poetic license which I cheerfully extend to cover prose.

And I use them sparingly.

But don't hesitate if it feels right.

Because sometimes style warrants it.

[SFEley]

JuliePgh wrote:
I have always been taught never start a sentence with 'And' or 'Because.'
"And why not?"
"Because we told you so."

Do either of those sentences sound wrong to you? They don't to me. Develop a good ear, and trust it.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[Fresie]

Wow, thank you, Uncle Jim, and thank you, everybody! I've learned a few very useful things. Now I'm back to sorting out that mess of multiple scene drafts... <img border=0 src="http://www.absolutewrite.com/images/emoteDisappear.gif" />

Thanks a lot!

Fresie

[James D Macdonald]

I have always been taught never start a sentence with 'And' or 'Because.' Are these considered acceptable as good grammar now, or do they fall under what is considered style?

I would be very careful of either in narrative.

You can do anything you want in dialog.

[maestrowork]

I would be very careful of either in narrative.

IMHO, it's perfectly okay for a contemporary story told in first person... the narration is just one big monologue anyway. :-)

[evanaharris]

If it's told in first person, it's more like dialogue, anyway, you'd have to take into account the character's writing ("speaking") style.

*edit...

which is what you said...i'm going back to bed.....

[James D Macdonald]

A quote from my beloved co-author:

"Where did we get the idea that 'hard' and 'fun' were antonyms? The opposite of fun isn't hard, it's boring."

[JoannaC]

Hi everyone

I just wanted to share that my copy of the "Writing the Breakout Novel" workbook by Donald Maass has just arrived, and so far I am finding it very helpful. It is based on the "Writing a Breakout Novel" book by the same author, which is one of my favourite writing books (especially for the proud and unashamed 'genre' writers, like me). I have only read the first section of the workbook so far but he has already raised some interesting points for me about how to make characters appealing even if they have flaws.

One insight from his first book that really helped me was his discussion of so-called "dark" characters. If I might quote briefly, as this could be a good discussion here:

"Authors mistakenly imagine that any character misbehaviour is entrancing so long as at the end of the story that character is redeemed, changed, reformed,r esolved or had grown. Not so. The problem with redemption is that it only happens AT THE END [emphasis mine] It ignores the hundreds of pages of wearisome middle in which the flawed protagonist may refuse to see the light."

I have an example that I think perfectly illustrates this quote :-) I am a huge fan of the show Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and there is this one character, Spike, whom I detest in spite of the internet community's passionate love for him. I could never explain just why I hated him so much until I read the above passage, and it clicked for me: they spend two entire seasons heaping misery upon misery on the main characters, and making some bad characterization choices with this guy, and then...he gets a soul. And all of a sudden, they started using that as a way to write off all of his bad behaviour. Every time any of the characters questioned his loyalty, trstwirthiness, likeability, mental sanity etc. someone would whine "but he has a soul now!" To which my response was always "Yes. And?" Too little, too late. I hated him by then. And giving him a soul does not negate the two seasons worth of crap I watched, witnessed and loathed prior to that.

Maass suggests that the way around this would be to give the "dark" character an appealing trait so that the reader has something to root for while we are waiting for the redemption to happen. To use an example from one of my favourite books, The Sparrow, I love what Mary Doria Russell does with her lead character, Emilio. I generally do not read sci-fi, but thanks to her handling of this character, the novel won me over because it became less about sci-fi and spaceships, and more about a crisis of faith" Emilio was a prest who did not believe. And gradually, as the fantastical events of the story are told, he comes to believe. He comes to believe that g-d has chosen him for something special, that there IS indeed a grand plan. And when it all starts going wrong, he has to try to reconcile that this was part of the plan too...

Anyway, just thought I would share about the book. I have found it quite helpful so far.

Joanna

[James D Macdonald]

Without arguing the character of Spike (I think that the seeds of his redemption are planted early on), I may comment that no one's 100% anything. Characters are mixtures of traits, some good, some bad, some sympathetic, some not.

The balance and mix is what makes 'em work.

[maestrowork]

Agreed and agreed.

Every character should be a facet of a complex human. Even the villain. Flat, stereotypical, 2-D characters make for a boring read.

[LiamJackson]

<<<I am a huge fan of the show Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and there is this one character, Spike, whom I detest in spite of the internet community's passionate love for him.>>>

I resemble that remark! (no, i didn't ask for the tag. I offered a weak protested..once. Read the new top line to see what I got for my trouble. There's a lesson in there somewhere.)

Seriously, I've never watched the program and can't comment on the way the writers chose to handle the Spike character, but "easy fixes" or convenient answers are a quick way to lose me as a viewer or reader.

Broadcasting a future, major "character change" can work in one of two ways. It's often successful, provided the "change" doesn't come without heavy price. Many novelists successfully employ this method.

However, if the writer waits until the last 3 pages to reveal that our dastardly protag(?) vampyre only need drink the magic potion, thus transforming into an Arch Angel "with all the powers, rights and privileges" ...

Another major faux pas is the complete and total white-wash character reversal. It worked in the "Grinch" but in most cases, leaving the character with at least a couple of familiar flaws would seem easier to swallow.

It all lies within the talents and abilites of the writer. If you can white-wash a character in the final three pages (three chapters, etc...) and make me believe it, or at least buy into it, I'll reach The End.

Unfortunately, televison only has so many minutes to present a story, and obvious short cuts seem more and more common, and acceptable, as time passes.

[maestrowork]

Hi Spike-like! :clap

Take the show "24" for example. I like the show -- it's riveting and exciting and suspenseful. Generally well written for that genre (nail-biting thriller). However, some of the "character" twists are done for the sake of twists. Like suddenly someone you think is the good guy turns out the bad guy, etc. without any foreshadowing, or the explanation is flimsy at best ("oh, he was a spy", etc.). I really hate that -- the throw the TV across the room moment.

[PixelFish]

I heart the Spike and I didn't feel that his getting a soul was all that sudden or deus ex machina. I also don't feel that his redemption coincides with getting his soul back--he's already started down that path by the time he gets the soul. Granted he's got a slippery slope to climb and he backslides plenty--which makes his redemption all the more interesting and real. It's not just handed to him.

[Jules Hall]

I think Spike was a well written character throughout the show, and certainly don't see anything wrong with his 'transformation'.

* It was clear from series 1 that a vampire could have a soul and might in that case act conscientiously and morally (although presumably with any normal human character flaws)
* From the point where he was "chipped" (series 5?) on, the transformation is very gradual. Eventually he gets driven to the point where he seeks out the soul and undergoes a trial to get it, so it isn't as if it is something that's suddenly thrust upon him.
* Then, even after he has it, the characters don't really trust him until the very end.

I think Whedon is very good at writing interesting villains. Although I wish he'd done better with Firefly. I guess I'll always be wondering what he had planned for series 2.

[LiamJackson]

Guess I'll have to look out for the reruns. That program seems to have quite a following around here!

[maestrowork]

Spike-like, I think you need to know why they call you that.

:grin

[spooknov]

I'm in accordance with Jules Hall here. Spike shows human attributes through the entire series. He loves Drucilla passionately. Without a soul, his good is masked by the darkness. But, it's still there. When he gets the chip, he can no longer do evil. It is against his will, but it forshadows his persona change over the upcoming years. He chooses to battle for his soul because of his love for Buffy and his desire to shed his dark side.


Also, the entire Series is based on "darkness". In the episode that Buffy meets Ct. Drakula (season 5), he tells her even though she is the good guy, her power lies in darkness. Even she shows character flaws thru the series. Her intensions are always good, but she makes bad choices. All the characters show human weaknesses.

[JoannaC]

Not saying that there was no "evolution" with Spike. Just saying that the way they played it after really did not sit right with me. "But he has a soul!" does not excuse every prior bad behaviour, and I think the writers really overplayed that card.

To use another Buffy example to illustrate the same Maass quote the dicussion originally referred to, I loved the way they handled Anya . She was a vengeance demon with great power for evil. But she became that way by being hurt, being scorned. The viewer could sympathize with her over that, and also relate to her on a wish fulfillment level, because who hasn't ever been hurt and wished they could have revenge? So she is a "dark" character, but she has traits most people can relate to. And we watched her grow, change and humanize---then get scorned again. Did her experience of real love change her enough to stop her from going evil again? Sort of. And when her evil boss does tempt her again, when she is in real pain and with nobody else to turn to, are you entirely surprised that she succumbs? No. And are you a little pleased when it turns otu that love HAS changed her, and she really doesn't have it in her to be evil anymore? THAT is character development!

[James D Macdonald]

One disadvantage that series television has (as compared with novels) is that it's impossible for the writers to go back and revise the first chapters to make them fit with the end.

[macalicious731]

I think Whedon is very good at writing interesting villains.

I think the difference between Angel and Spike (which allowed the writers to 'overplay their cards') was that Spike asked for his soul back and Angel didn't.

[JuliePgh]

Macalicious,

Okay, now that you've dragged Angel into this, were you disappointed with the series' final episode? To me, that was almost a 'throw the tv against the wall moment' except the darn thing weighs too much. I had to reflect on the ending several times before coming up with a palatable interpretation/"way to rationalize" what the writers did. I just felt like they took an easy way out and didn't end the story.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think Whedon is very good at writing interesting villains<hr></blockquote>
I agree, although I believe he's better with plot and twists.

[espz]

O Grammar Police, tell me....is it lay or lie in the following sentence?

"He came up over the rise to town and looked down into the valley where all the homes lay."

And do you say roof top or rooftop? Is than an American/English thing or? :shrug

[macalicious731]

Haha, maybe after this post we should find somewhere else to discuss - Office Party? - off of nice Uncle Jim's thread.

Honestly, Julie, I was never fully satisfied with the series after season 2. I thought 4 was absolutely terrible, 6 was hurting badly, and the only reason I actually watched 7 is because I knew it was the last season. I hardly remember anything except I thought the finale - specifically, the last couple of minutes - was a bit of a cop-out. "What do we do now?" Uh.. I dunno, the show's over so I'm going to stand around...

[macalicious731]

O Grammar Police, tell me....is it lay or lie in the following sentence?

How about some general rules concerning that darned verb? It's a nasty one... (;

[James D Macdonald]

A lie is something you tell to get a lay.

[James D Macdonald]

To be a bit more responsive:

"He came up over the rise to town and looked down into the valley where all the homes lay."

Lay is the past form of to lie. (Since lie changes to lay rather than just adding -ed to become "lied" we call this a strong verb.)

"To lie" means "to be situated" or "to recline." This is an intransitive verb. That means that it doesn't take a direct object.

The present participle of "to lie" is "lying," the past particible is "has lain."

=========

"To lay," on the other hand, means "to place" or "to put." This is a transitive verb -- it must have a direct object.

The present participle of "to lay" is "laying." The past form and past participle are both "laid."


=========

A participle is a verb that's being used as an adjective (to modify a noun).

=========

The confusion rises here: the past form of "to lie" is spelled the same as the present form of "to lay."

[Pthom]

This has to be the most concise and clear explanation of the lie/lay conundrum I have ever read.

Thanks.

[JuliePgh]

I have trouble with Hang/Hung. Would you dissect these as well, please?

Also, do you know of a good site that lists the tenses for verbs?

[JuliePgh]

I only use one or two made up words in my novel (SF&F - takes place on another world). One is used as a term of endearment (i.e. one spouse calling another 'honey' or 'dear'), without ever being defined. Should every made-up word be defined or left to the reader's imagination if the general idea is conveyed?

[maestrowork]

"Hanged" (the past tense and past participle of "hang") is used as "to put someone to death by hanging": They hanged her at dawn. It may also be used interchangeably with "hung" but most use the latter (see below).

"Hung" is used as "to put something up": She hung the clothes on the tree. Also as a slang for "endowment" -- he's hung.


Lay/lie/laid/ -- very confusing indeed. But Jim gave very good explanations.

[maestrowork]

If the meaning is very clear, I'd say leave it for the readers. After all, fantasy readers are used to made-up words.

If not, you may want to explain it very briefly, in a non-intrusive way, like: he called her ____ again, whenever he felt intimate with her.

[Kate Nepveu]

JuliePgh: since you're writing in the sf genre, your readers will not necessarily expect you to explicitly define a term of endearment if they can work it out fairly easily from context. I think you're probably okay, pending your betas' comments.

[James D Macdonald]

To add to the fun: "To lie" (to make an untrue statement) is a weak verb (forms the past tense by adding -ed), and doesn't take a direct object. Its present participle is "lying."

"To lay" is even more fun.

To beat down with force (Sir Reginald began to lay about him.)

To bury (Sir Reginald was laid in the churchyard.)

To copulate with (Sir Reginald got laid in the churchyard.)

To set in position (Sir Reginald laid the table.)

To put on a surface (Sir Reginald laid plaster.)

To place an immaterial thing (Sir Reginald laid stress on grammar.)

Sir Reginald also laid rope, laid plans, laid taxes, laid a bet, and laid his Aunt's ruffled feelings. Meanwhile, Sir Reginald's hen laid an egg.

That's a whole lot of laying going on.

=========

Hang/ hung:

"To hang" means "to suspend from above."

As a strong verb, hang changes its form in the past to become [/i]hung[/i]. As a weak verb, used of people in terms of exection, it adds -ed to become hanged. "She hung the picture," vice "Fred was hanged." On the other hand, Sadie hung onto the rope all night.

Hang on the Bell, Nellie (http://www.scoutorama.com/song/song_display.cfm?song_id=241)
========

"The stockings were hung by the chimney with care/ In hopes that Saint Nicholas soon would be there."

-- A Visit from St. Nicholas (http://www.kidsdomain.com/holiday/xmas/stories/niteb4.html)

vice

"'Shoot and be damned you rogue' said he/ 'And you'll be hanged and you'll be hanged for murdering me'."

-- Sovay (http://www.pthill.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/zsovay.htm)

=========


"I'll be hanged!" Sir Reginald exclaimed, when he saw the wallpaper Lady Anne had hung in the parlor.

[James D Macdonald]

Tenses of words:

Oh, dear.

Depending on who you believe, English has only two tenses (present and past), or thirty-six. Or some number in between.

English is a fiendishly difficult language.

[espz]

Thank you! I knew it SOUNDED right, but I didn't know WHY. Now I do. I guess that's why we're paying you the big bucks! (or at least buying your books!)

Anyone have any strong feelings on roof top versus rooftop?

[ChunkyC]

I agree with Kate about made-up words in SF/F. Let context do the explaining. Think of DUNE by Frank Herbert and all the myriad names for organizations, planets, etc. Did he tell us who the Fremen or the Bene Gesserit were? No, he showed us.

[James D Macdonald]

Anyone have any strong feelings on roof top versus rooftop?

Just be consistent. When the book is bought (as it will be if the story is compelling, regardless of whether you use roof top or rooftop) the publisher will give you a copy editor who will change it to house style.

If the story isn't compelling, the book won't be bought, regardless of whether you use roof top or rooftop.

[robertquiller]

My, my; if these questions of usage begin to occupy us so fully, we'll have to retitle the thread "Uncle Jim's Semantic Epigrams."

[Yeshanu]

Personally, I think it's been a fascinating discussion, one even those of us who entered at about page 30 can enter into. And using the verbs "to lay" and "to lie," not to mention "hanged" and "hung" make it all the more interesting... :b

[reph]

For questions about single words, like "roof top" versus "rooftop," consult a dictionary. Most likely, the editor will agree with your dictionary.

I believe that made-up words are introduced more smoothly if you don't explain them to the reader.

First draft:

"Uh-oh, dezisch, we're out of squergle food," Bob said. Dezisch is a term of affection used between near relatives on Bob's planet. A squergle is a common house pet that somewhat resembles a terrier with three pairs of ears.

Second draft:

"Hi, dezisch, I'm home!" Bob said. "Has the squergle had her litter yet?"

[JoannaC]

They use a lot of made-up swear words in SF tv to get the cursing past the network censors :-) Off-hand I can think of Farscape, Firefly (also lots of Chinese) and Red Dwarf.

Book-wise, there are some lovely examples of made-up language (plus some really nice uses of Latin) in Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow, if you are looking for a case study. She is an anthropologist so she knows her world-building :-) Small example of how to work some exposition in gracefully:

Reaching behind her ear, Emilio's hand suddenly revealed a flower.

"Si zhao!" Askama exclaimed, startled out of the pattern of repetition.

"Si zhao," Emilio repeated, "A flower." He glanced back at the adult, whose mouth was open and ovalled. There was no move, so he went on, producing then two flowers from nowhere.

"Sa zhay" Askama cried, giving him what might be an indication of plural formation.

"Sa zhay indeed, chiquitita," he murmured, smiling.

[Kate Nepveu]

I liked _The Sparrow_ a lot, though in retrospect I can see that it's flawed in some serious ways. However, under no circumstances should one read the sequel.

[James D Macdonald]

From another thread (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=646.topic):

That said, there are a lot of common questions about this industry (how about self-publishing? simultaneous submissions ok? do people really get discovered in the slush? do I really have to use that godawful Courier?) whose answers could be collected in a FAQ. The arcana of Key Lime Pies and Celtic Knotwork should stay in the thread where it is.

How about self-publishing?

<Blockquote>
Don't do it, unless you're writing specialized non-fiction for a defined niche audience.

Self-published poetry is standard.

If you're going to self-publish, actually self publish. Don't go to one of the vanity presses that have started disguising themselves as "self-publishing services."</Blockquote>

Simultaneous submissions ok?

<Blockquote>
Yes, if and only if the publisher says "simultaneous submissions are okay" in their guidelines.</Blockquote>


Do people really get discovered in the slush?

<Blockquote>
Yes. With some exceptions every author you see on the shelves in your local bookstore came out of one slushpile or another.</Blockquote>


Do I really have to use that godawful Courier?

<Blockquote>
Yes. Don't ask why, don't argue, just do it.</Blockquote>

<hr>

Lime Pie (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=257.topic&index=363)

Celtic Knotwork (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=257.topic&index=706)