Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[James D Macdonald]

Stronger than love, stronger than hate, stronger than self-perservation, is the desire to mess with someone else's prose.

<HR>

<BLOCKQUOTE>


Prologue

The white and yellow flowers smelled sweet. A quiet psalm sounded among the whispering trees. The boy looked on with curiosity as large men lowered a coffin into the ground. The headstone stood nearby, a name on its face, every line carved hard and deep and cold. His brother's.

The boy tossed a white rose into the grave. Rain fell and chilled his hands.

His mother’s gentle palm brushed across his eyebrows, then his eyes, his nose, and his chin. Her lips were softer than her touch: She kissed him on one cheek, then the other, then on the forehead. Her eyes were red; tears mixed with the rain.

He shivered. She clasped his hands, giving them a warm squeeze.

He looked up and saw his father--so still, so grand, like the statue of a king. Rain fell, but his father never moved.

[Kate Nepveu]

The reason I asked is because "looked on with curiosity" suggests to me a more dispassionate mood, and didn't seem to fit the somber tone of the rest, especially the last lines of that paragraph.

As far as "large," I didn't *see* an obvious opposition like "he felt very small in comparison"--which of course would be horribly clunky--so I just wanted to confirm. (I've been known to use "accordingly" four times in one paragraph, completely unconsciously.)

[maestrowork]

Thanks again! That's great.

I made a conscientious choice not to use words such as "grave," "coffin," "headstone" etc. but the readers know EXACTLY what it is about. And the boy is "dispassionate" for he doesn't understand what's going on. It is weird in that it is at once a 3rd person limited but also the narrator is getting behind the boy's perception (large box, large stone, etc.) The boy does not understand, but the readers do. I admit it's kind of a weird thing.

I think it worked. But maybe it didn't.

[Kate Nepveu]

I don't want to spend too much time picking your poor prologue to death. And POV is notoriously difficult to talk about, as there are so many different options. But I think I wasn't clear.

a large gray stone leaning close with his brother’s name cleaved into its face, every stroke hard and deep. And cold.

seems to me to be the POV character describing the gravestone in a way that indicates grief. If I were merely curious about what was going on, and didn't really understand that it was a funeral, I wouldn't describe a stone as having a name "cleaved" into with "hard," "deep," and "cold" strokes. And if I were a child, "cleaved" would probably not be in my vocabulary, any more than "headstone." I'd probably just say that the name was on the stone, possibly carved on.

Okay. No more of this, I promise.

Okay, as a kid it was in my vocabulary, because (major geek alert!) it's in the Appendices to _The Lord of the Rings_, but it's used in the opposite sense ("cleave to").

[James D Macdonald]

I'm not sure that "cleaved" is the word that's wanted here. To cleave is an interesting word, one that has two meanings in English: To split apart, and to stick together.

I don't see using it to describe carved letters at all.

[maestrowork]

No, no, no. I think it's healthy to discuss MY work. LOL. I enjoy discussion.

Cleave -- I had "cut" or "carved" before. I do think both are probably better word choices than cleave.

Stoic -- I probably will drop that and just have "statue of a King" I think that's more appropriate for the boy's POV.

POV -- I think that's my purpose. All the words "Hard, Deep and Cold" conveys grief to the READERS -- an allegory, comparing the stone to grief -- but to the boy, it is just that -- hard, deep and cold (the stone looks cold. The rain is cold). So my purpose was to keep it at the literal level, but the readers would infer it as metaphor for grief.

I think I am trying to do something rather complex in these two paragraphs -- using a boy's perspective to convey the sense of grief (parents) yet the oblivion (boy) at the same time. I don't know if I succeed or not. But I really do welcome the comments. I think that's great. Keep it coming! :-)

[maestrowork]

It may make more sense to know that my novel is told in 1st person. The narrator is the protagonist (the boy who grew up). So the prologue could be construded as the man recounting his memory as a boy at his brother's funeral -- sort of like how Bob Dole keep calling himself "Bob Dole"... here, it's a weird POV: 3rd person limited told by the narrator himself. The boy is me. I don't know if that makes sense. In essence (and simpler language):

"As a boy, I saw yellow flowers, heard quiet palsm, and felt the cold rain. I saw the large box and the large stone with my brother's name cut in it, the strokes are hard and deep. Looks cold."

[James D Macdonald]

We had some discussion, quite a bit ago, about taking college-level classes to learn to write.

Mostly, to me, courses labeled "creative writing" are a waste of time (except in so far as they get your fingers on the keys, which is never a bad thing).

Yet here I've found something that I think is pretty neat. It's a course called "Reception of the Arts," offered at Penn State, available over the Internet via their "World Campus." The course looks at art (all art), not through the making of art, not through the history of art, but by way of how the audience responds to art.

First, here's the site itself: <A HREF="http://art3idea.ce.psu.edu:16080/art3/" target="_new">InArt 3</a>.

To get into the site, click the "the main site" link.

The site itself is an eye-opener, without signing up for the course. Lots and lots of content here. To start -- look at the vertical black bar on the left. Click on the link called "red cubes," second from the bottom. New index on the left: Third from the top is "humors." Click on that.

You'll see a red square to the right of the black index bar. The leftmost link inside that red square is "melancholy." Click there, you'll get a definition, and a link to Lesson One.

Lesson one is wonderful ... to a large extent it mirrors my own opinions about art. So's the rest of the material on this site. I've been chasing down links on it for hours, and saying "Ooohhhh, that's right!"

This is a Grand Unified Theory of Everything as far as Art is concerned. We're artists, we writers. How the Audience Reacts is very important to us as far as being commercial artists (the reaction we want is "Throwing Pots of Money At Us").

So, read. Be astounded. I was.

Recall just a bit ago the novel 1984 came up? Recall one of the central conceits of 1984 was Newspeak, an artificial language designed to keep people from thinking, by destroying words? (The theory being that people can't think about things that they don't have words for.)

Well, here are some vocabularly lists for y'all. If we want to think like artists, words give us the tools to think about our art. Here you go:

<A HREF="http://art3idea.ce.psu.edu/art3/basics/a_to_f.html" target="_new"> Big Words A to F</a>

<A HREF="http://art3idea.ce.psu.edu/art3/basics/g_to_n.html" target="_new"> Big Words G to N</a>

<A HREF="http://art3idea.ce.psu.edu/art3/basics/o_to_z.html" target="_new">Big Words O to Z</a>

Those lists by themselves are mind-expanding (and will give you a big edge while playing Scrabble, too).

Try 'em. See if they don't add the ability to talk about -- to think about -- what we've been trying to do.

Golly. This is a course that I might take myself.

A bit back I was talking about knotwork as a way to think about plot. Here's all kinds of notes about labyrinths, as expressions of art. It works out to the same concept that I'd developed on my own, these many years past.

Here's a site to bookmark.

-------------

Coming soon: Another Way to Consider The Whole Plot.

[ChunkyC]

I first came across the word 'cleave' in the first segment of the Woody Allen film: 'Everything You Wanted To Know About Sex, But Were Afraid To Ask', when Woody the Jester is afraid to fool around with the Queen in case the King 'cleaves him in twain'. :lol

[maestrowork]

That's English to you. The same word can mean two completely opposite things: cut and separate, or cling to.

[HapiSofi]

Cleave, cleft, cloven: a fine old English verb, emphasis on the "old".

Interestingly, "cleave" means both "to cut apart" and "to cling to", but "cleft" and "cloven" only have the first sense.

Lots of English words can be their own antonyms. One nominee for the best example of this would be "sinople", which can mean both "red" and "green". Some further specimens: inflammable, impregnable, sanction, screen, protest, oversight, trim, enjoin, dust, clip, joint, weather.

English is a wonderful language, and I'm deeply grateful I learned it when I was young enough for language acquisition to be automatic, because I can't imagine what it's like to come to it as an adult.

[Kate Nepveu]

So the prologue could be construded as the man recounting his memory as a boy at his brother's funeral

You've probably already thought of this and decided against it for perfectly good reasons, but I have to ask--

Why not cast it more obviously as such? "I remember" as a brief opening might be an easier transition into the present-day first-person action, and that way you could explicitly have the narrator comment on the distance between how he saw it then and what he knows now.

[ChunkyC]

English is a wonderful language, and I'm deeply grateful I learned it when I was young enough for language acquisition to be automatic, because I can't imagine what it's like to come to it as an adult.

You are so right, Hapi. I work with two Japanese girls and one El Salvadoran (is that right?) and the looks of utter bewilderment I get from them sometimes is a perfect reminder of how bizarre our language really is.

An example I love to quote, thought I can't remember who it originated with, is the spelling of the word 'fish' using certain pronunciation rules:

GHOTI

as in enough, women, station

Try explaining that to an English as second language class.

[James D Macdonald]

GHOTI

That was George Bernard Shaw.

(GBS also only ran about two paragraphs of Eliza's dialog in dialect in Pygmalion before he dropped back to normal spelling. Learn from the master, O my child.)

See also, Dr. Seuss's example and illustration: "The Tough Coughs As He Ploughs the Dough."

[ChunkyC]

:lol - Dr. Seuss was a genius, if there ever was one. As annoying as all these odd rules and exceptions can sometimes be, they sure fill our writer's toybox to the brim, don't they?

[maestrowork]

English is my second language, although I did start to learn it from a very young age (I still remember, believe it or not, learning the words "mountain" and "ocean" at age 3). As an adult and writer who writes in English, I still grapple with the language.

[maestrowork]

Why not cast it more obviously as such? "I remember" as a brief opening might be an easier transition into the present-day first-person action, and that way you could explicitly have the narrator comment on the distance between how he saw it then and what he knows now.

The short answer is: because I am the author. I can do whatever I want. :tongue

The long answer is:

It's an artistic decision I made. I want it to be obvious yet not obvious at the same time. I know it can be confusing to some but I think it achieves the effect I wanted:
- conveys that it's a funeral, and the four key characters (mother, father, child, child's brother)
- conveys the sadness and grief in the scene, without spelling it out.
- conveys the "dispassionate" nature of the POV -- note the narration never speaks of "grief," "sadness," "pain" or "regrets." Everythng is inferred: tears, cold rain, hard stone.
- hooks the readers to want to find out who these people are (and later in the book, an "a-ha" moment)
- has a lyrical, almost "dream-like" quality to it. It could be a piece of memory. Who says it may not be a dream? It can certainly be interpreted that way -- if I write "I remember" that will break that "dream."
- I like to make my readers think and try to interpret some deeper meaning below the surface of simple texts. It's like watching a movie -- different people take something different from the same scene.

And like any artistic decisions, sometimes it works beautifully, and sometimes it doesn't. And it also depends on the audience.

Have you ever told a story about yourself but never told anyone who the person was?

The stupid guy just ran through the park without his clothes on. Boy he sure regreted it.

The effect would become more powerful when you find out that the "stupid guy" was actually me!

[qatz]

your first answer i reject. one place where Jim and I differ is whether the author has any special insight into a work once authored.

your second answer is more plausible, but may nor may not work.

i like kate's question.

[Prometheus76]

A few days ago my six-year-old stepdaughter handed me a report she had written. It contained the following sentence:

"Tom used a pece of yr to fly a kite."

I puzzled over it for a minute and figured out quickly that pece was supposed to be piece. The other word escaped me. I asked her what word it was. "Wire," she said. Clever, I thought. Almost hate to tell her that's not how it's spelled.

[Stephenie Hovland]

Don't tell her unless she acts. In the early education world she's using "inventive spelling." It's a great way to get her to write in a more natural way without having to worry about the spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. She can develop her storytelling abilities before the stifling rules hold her back. As she learns the rules, they will eventually show up in her writing. Now, if she were 26, I'd say it's time to teach her to edit!
:)
Stephenie

[Yeshanu]

My son started writing stories using inventive spelling when he was four or five years old. When in Grade Five, he was picked to go to a writing workshop taught by professional writers (Robert Munsch, amongst others).

Now he's eighteen, and he reads this thread, and does his BIC more faithfully than his mother, I think.

He wants to be a professional novelist.

Oh, where did I go wrong? :ack

Seriously, don't push standard spelling too early. Your stepdaughter already has good phonetic awareness, and her spelling will improve as she writes and reads more.

So buy her lots of books, praise her stories, and rejoice that you're raising a literate child.

Blessings,

Ruth

[Yeshanu]

I just got back from spending some time with my dad, aka Beta Reader #4, and showed him part of the second draft of my novel. His immediate comment was, "You took out all the songs! I liked the songs!"

Also, way back in this thread, we were warned not to put sermons in our novels unless we were really good preachers. When I was writing the first draft, and I showed it to my college creative writing teacher, guess which part he liked best? And after all, I am a preacher by profession!:evil

Now, my question is this: How do others feel about songs (or poetry) in the text of a novel? I know that when I read LOTR, I only read the songs every third or fourth time through, but I do read them, and would miss them if they weren't there.

As for sermons, I think I would definitely show the congregation's reactions, but perhaps put part of a sermon in for context, rather than simply tell the reader what the sermon was about. How would you as readers react to that. (And no -- I would never put a whole sermon in a novel. I assume if you want a sermon, you would go to your local church, mosque, synagogue, etc. to hear one live.)

[maestrowork]

What about songs that are copyrighted (a portion of the lyrics)? Would the publisher not like it since they may have to acquire the rights to the songs? Sometimes the specific lyrics add to the scene and by taking them out, something would be amiss. But I also don't want a publisher to go "oh oh!"

[James D Macdonald]

If you're including lyrics from other people's songs, you have to get permission, and it's you, the author (not the publisher) who has to pay the permissions.

If you need lyrics, write your own.

In any case...

If you're a talented poet, and the poetry enhances the story (reveals character, advances the plot, supports the theme... you know the litany), then do it. Else, don't.

[ChunkyC]

I have included lyrics from a song in a short story of mine. The setting is 1970 and I wanted them to evoke a sense of the era. I have contacted the songwriter and publisher and have their permission to go ahead with an agreement to discuss suitable payment for the use of the lyrics if the story sells. I know I should get a dollar value settled, but don't have any idea what would be appropriate. Should it be a percentage of earnings from the story based on percentage of words the lyrics account for in the story?? If so, the songwriter would get about $1.50. Any thoughts anyone?

[allion]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I have what may be a related question about rights and permissions when it refers to a song title in a story.

If you mention a song title, as in this sentence:

She heard the song 'Roxanne' on the radio as she did the dishes.

Would this use also require a permission, or is it ok to use the title to evoke a time period/reflection in the work?

The lyrics would not be used in the work at all, only the title.

Thank you for this thread!

[James D Macdonald]

Titles can't be copyrighted.

When in doubt, consult your agent and/or your editor.

[maestrowork]

I believe titles only would be safe. Stephen King uses a lot of pop culture references in his work and I don't think he had to pay a dime to anyone for mentioning "Bohemian Rhapsody."

[James D Macdonald]

Dipping back to page 37 in this thread:

It's funny. She didn't say "something is missing" but "you did not put in such and such." So it seems like she does get it, but she wants some explanations to go with it.

I have to ask ...

Was this story being workshopped at the time, and did the reader have the full manuscript, or only a portion?

[James D Macdonald]

Back on page 36 of this thread.... Pthom asked:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So, what's my point? akaEraser asked, "How come we can't just make the italics or bolds or whatever to begin with?" My friend the typesetter is a small outfit; has only a few hundred clients. Uncle Jim, seriously, do the big guys still set type for whole novels by reading 8 1/2" x 11" typed copy? Especially when it's so much easier, quicker, and more error free to do it from a file. I betcha that 95% of us writers prepare our manuscripts using a word processor on a computer.

Surely, modern publishers utilize the most current and efficient technology. Don't they?

<hr></blockquote>

Let's see: Yes and no.

For the past several years I've turned in my manuscripts both as hard copy (standard manuscript format) and on disk.

All the editing is done on the manuscript, and I wouldn't want it any other way. I want to see what's happened. If the editing happened in an electronic file, how would I see what was changed, to either approve or disapprove of it?

Next bit: I use WordPerfect as a wordprocessor. Other writers use other programs. I know of one who uses XYWrite. I'm sure there's at least one who uses Peachwrite, another who uses Electric Pencil. There are probably some who use edlin. Heck, if my good old Atari were still working, I'd still be using PaperClip. I liked that wordprocessor. Somewhere there are writers working on original Macs, on Apple IIs, on a Coleco Adam (with the funky tape drive -- remember it?). Even a few holdouts who use typewriters.

I've heard horror stories from my editor chums, too: of the writer who turned in her novel on disk, with each individual page saved as a separate MS Word file. Of the writer whose files came through garbled. Of the writer who had the virus. I recently got done with a project which involved a group of writers each sending me chapter-length files. You wouldn't have believed the hand-fiddly-work it took to turn those individual files into one single coherent file.

All the way through, hard copy is faster, easier, and more efficient.

I bet that the typesetters nowadays take the marked up hardcopy, and at the end transfer the marks from the hardcopy to the text file that the writer supplied.

[ChunkyC]

To add my wordprocessor to the mix, I use OpenOffice. I always work in 12pt Courier, underlining for italics. When I saved about thirty pages to RTF for a friend to go over (I opened the resulting file and it was fine), it arrived at their computer with large chunks of text changed so that formerly lowercase letters were small caps - and italic.

Why? Who knows. These are computers. They do weird things. At least paper won't change formatting on you when you put it in an envelope.

[James D Macdonald]

There's a silly article in Salon today.

www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/03/22/midlist/index.html (http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/03/22/midlist/index.html)

(You'll have to look at an ad to read it.)

I'm a mid-list writer too, making my living at this game for the past fifteen years. Poor Jane Doe! She's written five books in ten years? What's she been doing with her time?

Most mid-list authors would love to have advances like she got. She's averaging $40K/year. That isn't poverty. She wants to be a writer? She should write. She should write books that people want to read.

A word of advice for her: What do you think pseudonyms were made for? Change your agent, change your name, and get to work.

You want to know my worst advance ? $2,000. You want to know my worst sales? 640 copies in hardcover. (Happy ending there: sold the book to another house, where it came out in paperback and sold over 100,000 copies.) Sales numbers and advances aren't particularly secrets. For heaven's sake! They're printed in the trade mags.

Friggin' cry me a river, lady. On your feet and get moving. Did someone tell you this gig is easy?

=============

UPDATE John Scalzi on this same article:
www.scalzi.com/whatever/archives/000703.html (http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/archives/000703.html)
UPDATE 2 More from the Nihilistic Kid (http://www.livejournal.com/users/nihilistic_kid/405207.html)

[maestrowork]

Dipping back to page 37 in this thread:

It's funny. She didn't say "something is missing" but "you did not put in such and such." So it seems like she does get it, but she wants some explanations to go with it.

I have to ask ...

Was this story being workshopped at the time, and did the reader have the full manuscript, or only a portion?

She only had the first half of the book.

[maestrowork]

Virus. LOL. I once had to edit an article someone else wrote, and upon opening the file, my Norton Antivirus went berserk. Later he found out that everyone's computer at his work place was infected, as was EVERY Word file.

MS Word's editing/tracking/approval/collaboration tools are pretty good -- I use them a lot with my editor. However, you're right about different file formats, programs, platforms, etc. make it difficult to edit using only electronic formats. We will have to rely on the lowest, common denominator which is a hard copy standard-format manuscript.

[evanaharris]

There's a silly article in Salon today.

www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/03/22/midlist/index.html

(You'll have to look at an ad to read it.)



No sympathy at all. If she's so distraught over the big-ticket publishing industry, over not selling books "hand to hand", then maybe she should do it herself...

[HapiSofi]

Pthom said:So, what's my point? akaEraser asked, "How come we can't just make the italics or bolds or whatever to begin with?" My friend the typesetter is a small outfit; has only a few hundred clients. Uncle Jim, seriously, do the big guys still set type for whole novels by reading 8 1/2" x 11" typed copy? Especially when it's so much easier, quicker, and more error free to do it from a file. I betcha that 95% of us writers prepare our manuscripts using a word processor on a computer.

Surely, modern publishers utilize the most current and efficient technology. Don't they?They don't do it because it isn't easier, quicker, and more error-free to do it from the author's file.

Consider the manuscript. It gets edited, rewritten, finally goes to production. One copy is sent to a copyeditor who makes marks on it. Another copy is sent to a designer who does the same. (Or, if you have time to burn, the same copy is sent to one, then the other. Never mind.) The copyedit comes back, gets looked at and fiddled with by the editor, goes to the author, gets fiddled with and stetted and fiddled with some more, and comes back to the editor again.

Now. If everyone's behaved properly, meaning they've all used comprehensible marks, and everyone's used a different color of pencil so you can distinguish one set of marks from another, the manuscript is ready to go to typesetting. The typesetters are used to this system, and can sort out the marks. Typesetting is like sending out your laundry: manuscript goes out, galley pages come back; and since the typesetters have been cutting each other's throats on prices for years, it's not even that expensive. In fact, it's one of the few steps in book production that's relatively simple and reliable, and very rarely generates new error modes.

Note that this system works no matter what kind of computers and software the author, editor, copyeditor, and designer used or didn't use. This is necessary. You can't expect the author to change the way they work to accommodate your new text processing system. Most authors are incredibly conservative about their writing setup. The last CPM user on the planet will probably be an author. You also don't want to be stuck having to choose your copyeditors on the basis of their personal computer systems. The difference in customer satisfaction between a good copyeditor and a bad one is huge. You'll take the good one even if she sends in her documentation in quill pen on parchment. Are you starting to get the picture?

You can't do this all electronically because it's an incredible pain in the wazoo to keep track of who made which changes. Believe me, "Just have the author enter the changes as they go through the copyedit" is NOT an option. Typesetters are professional keyboarders. There are some authors, copyeditors, editors, etc., who are that good at keyboarding text, but there are plenty who aren't. Also, keyboarding text isn't their job. They have other things to do.

Sometimes these days the typesetters will use the author's text file as the basic keystrokes, and just clean it up and enter all the changes. However, the master document they'll be working from will still be the printed-out hardcopy manuscript with all the different-colored pencil marks on it. Nobody has yet come up with a computer technology that's anywhere near as flexible, verifiable, and multi-platform-compatible.

[qatz]

thanks for incredibly informative notes on typesetting. Q

[ChunkyC]

Hapi, another post all writers who skulk about here should pin to the ever-dwindling open spaces on the wall of their workspace. You make it abundantly clear why paper is better without even going into software upgrades that introduce file format incompatibilities even though the program manufacturer claims it won't, security patches that bugger up your Internet connection....

...where's my pencil sharpener?

[James D Macdonald]

I remember one software upgrade:

"Don't worry," said the tech. "It'll be transparent to the users."

"Yeah," said the system manager. "Kinda like a helicopter's rotors...."

[Pthom]

Hey, I used to use edlin. LOL (but never for anything longer than a paragraph or two. It was more useful as a programming tool.)

My favorite word processor came with my first computer: a Leading Edge Model D. It was called LEWP (Leading Edge Word Processor) and was similar, I think, to the original XYWrite, a favorite of Jerry Pournelle ... once. I think I recall his column in BYTE magazine extolling its virtues and complaining that his co-author, Larry Niven, preferred MS Word.I bet that the typesetters nowadays take the marked up hardcopy, and at the end transfer the marks from the hardcopy to the text file that the writer supplied.Thanks for the confirmation of this, at least. ;)

[ChunkyC]

Just read the Salon article.

Boo hoo. Poor baby. Only $150 grand advance. I make thirty bucks a week writing a 500 word movie review column for my local small town newspaper, the only writing I've yet to get paid for. Know what? It feels GREAT! I get paid to put words in the paper and people come up to me on the street and say they read the column and think I was bang on, or they disagree but see my point, etc. etc. It's the best feeling in the world.

Now if I manage to get some of my fiction published...my god, I'll fall to my knees and weep with joy even if the advance is only a hundred dollar gift certificate from Amazon. And this bimbo is whining about making nearly half a million dollars from writing in the last ten years?

Well lady, if you don't like the money, there's a bunch of us over here who wouldn't mind throwing it all on the floor and rolling around in it. :grin

[maestrowork]

Chunky, what paper do you write for? I also write a weekly movie review (but I am cheaper. Only $25). I write for an e-zine.

[maestrowork]

$150K advance? Where do I sign up? $40K/year for writing only 5 books in ten years? Where do I sign up?

[ChunkyC]

Hey Maestro...I write my column for the entertainment insert of The Canmore Leader and Banff Crag & Canyon newspapers in Alberta, Canada. Once in a blue moon they put my column online. (twice in 2 years). Print circulation 10,000. It may not be the big time, but I love it. :)

[maestrowork]

Chunky, same here. I love it and I don't really care about the pay (who can live on $25 a week anyway! Chuckle). I write for Actors Ink and the column also appears on Talk Entertainment.

[James D Macdonald]

Two more links for y'all:

<a href="http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/archives/000701.html" target="_new">Ten pieces of very good advice</a>

<a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004925.html#004925" target="_new">Discussion of that silly Salon article</a> (don't forget to follow the sub-links).

[SRHowen]

having this debate--

one space or two spaces after the end punctuation of a sentence. Like so many of these arguments--the ones who say one space argue it looks better--while a true source of this is industry standard are hard to find. I have always used two spaces, seems a no brainer to me.

But is it?

Shawn

[ChunkyC]

Good question! I've had this discussion with my editor friend who vehemently defends the 1-space position. I always thought 2 spaces was the accepted norm. Not something you usually see in submission guidelines, nor have I seen it mentioned either way in my Writer's Digest manuscript preparation book.

Uncle Jim?

PS - ten pieces of writing advice? Three words: Fab-u-lous.

[James D Macdonald]

One space or two?

That tells folks if you learned how to type on a typewriter or a computer. Typewriter folks use two spaces after punctuation; computer-trained folks use one.

It's meaningless. Concentrate on telling a good story.

[SRHowen]

James, that was my thought. I learned to type on a typewriter--an old electric monster in HS and before that an old Royal Green manual. Could type about 120 WPM even on that thing, still type about the same on a keyboard. :ack

Wonder what the programs such as Mavis teach now? My 10 yr old types about 40 WPM on her 5th grade typing program. Small fingers, she does better the laptop with the smaller scale keyboard.

Just checked Mavis, you set it to how you want to type, one space or two.

Also, I agree with the just write the story--but in the final formatting there are always a million questions and on this particular board i was talking about there are several people who will disagree with anyone who they see as getting ahead of them on the publishing road. No idea why I still hangout there other than I have been a member of that BB for almost 5 years now.

Side note: James can you e-mail me? Hotmail ate my address book so I no longer have your e-mail.

Shawn

[Gala]

I moved this to

<a href="http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=453.topic" target="_new">pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=453.topic</a>

since it doesn't directly apply to writing novels.

[Yeshanu]

Just followed the link above and read Charlie Stross' reply. If you haven't already done so, read it! Very intelligent advice if you want to build a writing career, and not just sell one novel.

As for Jane Austen Doe, I couldn't even read the whole article. I absolutely detest whiners. If her books read as easily as the article, then I don't wonder that they never sold well. I do wonder why they sold in the first place.

Oh, well. I believe one of the links above said something about life not being fair...

On a good note, I was finally able to order my copy of "Logical Chess" from Chapter's on Saturday (my tax return came in) and got it in the mail yesterday! See? Good things do happen to good people sometimes. In fact, given that I was told it wouldn't even be shipped until yesterday or today, both Chapter's and Canada Post did an amazing job!

So I'm off to play chess with myself.

[James D Macdonald]

Now some practical advice for "Jane Austen Doe" over at Salon.com.

1. Don't quit your day job.

2. Take that first book, the one that you got the $150K advance on. I'm sure it's reverted by now. Resell it to a small press that will bring it out in a prestige trade paperback edition. A $500 or $1,000 advance is not too small for you to accept. Same with your other books as they revert.

3. That celebrity ghostwriter gig is a good one. Ask your agent to line up some more of those.

4. Drop your old name, whatever it is. Find a nice pseudonym and start again as a new writer. Sure, you'll get new-writer advances, maybe in the $5K range. Grow your career the old-fashioned way, by writing. Who knows? Maybe someday those earlier books of yours will be reprinted as "By Pseudonym (writing as Old Name)." Stranger things have happened.

5. When you get a big advance, put it in the bank.

6. Don't quit your day job.

[HapiSofi]

My advice would be, "Find someone who's built a working time machine. Go back in time. Keep yourself from writing an inadequately pseudonymous article in Salon which is sooner or later going to be identified as yours, and which is going to mark you forever in people's minds as a whiny drama queen and a commercial failure."

[Beaver]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned earlier, so ill just ask it.

Im trying to write something now in first person, just playing around with it, but i realized that it was restrictive in a way. I knew it would be, but my question is:

Is it ok to tell more when writing first person because you have a limited perspective and because of the attitude of the narrator/main character?

My guy has borrowed some money from a drug dealer, so he is not the best person himself, has a temper and cusses sometimes. But I've found myself telling some things because thats how the main char tells the story.

Is this bad?

Beaver ;)

[maestrowork]

1st person can have more internal dialogues, contemplation, etc. Remember, the narrator is the character (major or minor) so you are writing in his/her voice and POV. If you want to be "stream of consciousness" so be it because you are telling the story from your (1st person) perspective.

You can also create a semi-reliable character in your 1st person, giving enough information (show) so that the readers know what is going on, but the character does not. That creates suspense. When you are writing about other characters in your book though, since you're limited in your 1st person POV (unless you're retelling a story long past so you're interpreting...) you would most likely want to show then tell: instead of saying, "Chaz is angry at me" you may have to show it -- "Chaz cusses and then punches me in the face."


Still, you need to balance the amount of details with how much "telling" you are doing. It is perfectly okay to TELL the readers that your character is feeling something: "I am angry." However, during rewrite, you may want to expand it and paint a vivid picture in the readers mind exactly how angry you are. You can still show to support your "telling" -- if you say, "I am so angry at him," you can now say, "I am so angry at him that if I had 10 fish hooks, I'd put 12 in his eyes."

[ChunkyC]

Beaver, to add to what Maestro said, just remember that when writing in first person, you cannot include ANYTHING that your point-of-view character does not know. I've seen some published books that say stuff like:

I looked at Bob. He thought I was crazy.

How would the POV character know what Bob was thinking? You'd have to re-word it more like:

I looked at Bob. He stared back like he thought I was crazy.

Despite the restrictions, first person can be much more emotionally charged. Have fun!

[pdr]

I had a good chuckle reading the Jane Austen Doe comments and all your replies. There is a but though. Countries like Eire (Ireland) offer their writers tax breaks, free travel, education and research perks and treasure them. Taking into account the expenses a publisher has publishing a book and what, if anything, they spend on marketing, I have to say that many writers do get paid on the low side.
Happy Writing

[James D Macdonald]

For someone to enter a field notorious for its small financial rewards, unsteady prospects, and lack of recognition, then to complain about small financial rewards, unsteady prospects, and lack of recognition is ... well, many working writers who read that piece had reactions that consisted of laughing uproariously.

To call Ms. Doe's story a "tragedy" is rather overstating her misfortunes.

For that matter, it takes a certain amount of nerve on her part to call herself a "mid-list writer." She was certainly making front-list money.

[ChunkyC]

I bought a new house and a car less than three years old while earning an annual salary about 60% of what Salon lady averaged over the ten year period she's whining about. Even if she was considered underpaid in some circles, she earned more than enough to put food on the table and a roof over her head. Her complaining is pure selfish greed.

[MacAl Stone]

note to myself *when publishing house offers fabulous, unheard-of advance, I WILL give it back...at least some of it*

Jim, Is Ten Percent of Nothing one of yours, under a pseudonym?

Oh, also, the link to the book in your sig needs an "r" in percent...

(I really can't believe I'm mentioning that...)

[James D Macdonald]

Nah, when publishing house offers an unheard-of advance, put it into CDs, with the maturity spread out so you can't spend it all at once.

10,000 sold hard and paper combined, after a $150,000 advance? That wasn't just a mess, that was a disaster. That was the point where she should have changed her name.

If you're the sort of author who sells 10,000 copies, you aren't the sort of author who makes six-figure advances. And this isn't new -- publishing didn't become a business just in the last ten years. Let me whisper to you.... publishing has always been a business.

<hr>

No, 10% of Nothing isn't one of mine; I don't even know the author (except by reputation). I just think that he's written an important book.

[Kate Nepveu]

Beaver: I'm not sure what kinds of things your character is telling, so I can't say. But you might find it helpful to consider what kind of first-person you're doing: that is, who the narrator's talking to, and when. Would it be in-character to give that information under those circumstances?

[ChunkyC]

Okay, I can't help myself, I have to take one more cheap shot:

How many Jane Austen Doe's does it take to screw in a light bulb?

One, but she holds it still and waits for the world to revolve around her.

:grin

[pina la nina]

re the salon article, I found it very interesting, as a naive writer. It made me wonder a lot about why she writes. Seems like fame and big money are the incentive for her and that she has very little satisfaction from her good reviews. The tragedy here seems to me that she can say she has "adoring reviews" and still feels so dispirited about herself.

I thought being a good writer was the goal here (sigh, how utterly quaint.) Being a huge freaking success should be extra, right? How can it truly be your goal? Is it in your control as a writer? That seems to me like trying to be a painter and getting mad because your work, though brilliant, isn't auctioning off like Van Gogh's.

I see the advice offered here, on this site - of how to present your work to potential publishers - as just that. If we want our work to be seen and enjoyed by anyone other than our families and friends and make any sort of impact on the world (be it a tiny *poof* of dusty impact) then we do that best by getting published.

(In science , where I work for money - not much, but some - we "publish or perish" - right? There are lots of types of jobs that depend on producing information that will further other people's work. It is satisfying to see my name in print there, to be a "first author" but the thrill is not the goal, it can't be. The whole purpose is simply putting information, the best information I can produce, out there for others to use.)

If our goals are really the cranking out reams of pulpy money-making prose, seeing our names and pseudonyms in glowing lights, then that seems to me a very different sort of thing, kind of like hoping to grow up and be Julia Roberts. Nice work if you can get it, certainly not worth crying over.

[maestrowork]

As much as we like to rip on Ms. Jane Austen Doe, I think we're getting off track. How about some more of those lessons, Uncle Jim?

[pdr]

Sorry everyone, I'm not disagreeing. I think Jane Doe's complaints were over the top and James Mac is spot on.
BUT I do think the system is wrong. If publishers paid a set amount per book, like $5000, and paid writers a bigger percentage on every book sold then we would see more new writers published and a wider range of books published. When publishers lock up their cash in huge advances to a few everyone suffers. Readers miss out on a choice of books and more unusual/experimental/cross genre books to read. Good books often miss out on publication for longer than they should. New writers and mid-list writers struggle harder than they should have to in order to get published. I just don't feel that mega bucks advances are good for the publishing industry or writers.
Happy Writing.
Oh! Here's post script.
P.S. I bet all you guys are raging optimists and expect to be receiving mega bucks advances one day so you're all going to scream at me!

[Dancre]

i've finally caught up with the posts and i wanted to give my last thoughts on the silly post. i think ms doe forgot that writing a book and publishing it is no different than one who produces a product and expects the producer to sell and market that product.
SHE needs to market the book not expect the publishers to do all the work. she should have taken the advice given by publishers who criticised her novels and followed their advice. SHE should have called the magazines and tried to obtain an interview. if she worked for such big named advertising firms, maybe she could have obtained their help, maybe look into her big-named connections. there's no end to the marketing possibilities she could have followed. i just hate it when people point their fingers at others for their problems. if she would have done the marketing herself she would probably sold more books. oh well, the world's full of whinners. like maestro said, back to the lessons.
kim

[qatz]

none of this jane doe stuff, though i haven't read her piece or taken part, seems off track at all to me. we've been off on a lot less productive tangents, i think. anything that leads to the kind of deep reflection pina's post presents is, in my case, good. we may be done with it now, but i cannot task those that brought it up. we're talking about writing, and this was a part of it.

[ChunkyC]

Nice epilogue, qatz.

So, to get back to lessons...Uncle Jim, we've been discussing sentences in another thread, how about some of your thoughts on stitching said sentences into paragraphs? I find myself struggling at times in revision, trying to figure out just where to hit the old ENTER key. I know you should try to contain a complete thought/idea, but perhaps you could elaborate?

Your humble (mostly) and attentive student...Chunky

[ChunkyC]

I have an example paragraph that might be useful to look at. It begins a chapter and I try to set a scene, then bring us closer in before the dialogue starts. Right now I have it as one, but can't decide if I should break it in two with the general descriptions in a first paragraph, and Jayson's subjective experience in a second:

* * * * After the intensity of their meeting with the police, Sylvie and Jayson had both felt drawn to the peaceful isolation of the soporific river running through the centre of Georgetown, and they held hands as they sauntered along the bank. The air was warm, almost motionless, and thick with the buzz of insects--it smelled fresh and clean and alive. Several picayune puffs of cloud floated lazily far above, their edges razor sharp against the deep cyan of the late afternoon sky. Sol beat down virtually unimpeded and Jayson's scalp had begun to tingle as perspiration collected in his hair and slalomed down the sides of his head. He was glad of the sensation, it confirmed they were out of the confines of the police station and away from everything it signified. Sylvie walked beside him with her face turned toward the water as it gurgled past.
* * * * “Tell me more about your mother, Jayson.”
Thoughts?

[maestrowork]

I can't wait for Uncle Jim so I'm jumping in (again, imagine this a great pool of salt):

When to break into paragraphs? For me there are a few things:
1. How does it sound? Sometimes when I want to make a point, I would separate the last sentence into a separate paragraph to really "punctuate" it. Give it more power. Eg:
.... blah blah... I don't know what to say. I have nothing to say to him.

Nothing.


2. If the logical unity of the sentences belongs in their own group, then I separate them as different paragraphs.

In your example, I would probably have broken them as follows:

After the intensity of their meeting with the police, Sylvie and Jayson had both felt drawn to the peaceful isolation of the soporific river running through the centre of Georgetown, and they held hands as they sauntered along the bank. The air was warm, almost motionless, and thick with the buzz of insects--it smelled fresh and clean and alive. Several picayune puffs of cloud floated lazily far above, their edges razor sharp against the deep cyan of the late afternoon sky. this paragraph describes the scene

Sol beat down virtually unimpeded and Jayson's scalp had begun to tingle as perspiration collected in his hair and slalomed down the sides of his head. He was glad of the sensation, it confirmed they were out of the confines of the police station and away from everything it signified. this parag describes his reaction

Sylvie walked beside him with her face turned toward the water as it gurgled past. this is Sylvie, so a separate paragraph

“Tell me more about your mother, Jayson.”

[ChunkyC]

Maestro--so you see my example paragraph as three 'mini-scenes' (to use a movie analogy), as opposed to one shot slowly moving closer.

[maestrowork]

Well, no. It's the same scene. But to use your cinema lingos. There are different camera angles. The first parag is a long shot of the establishing scene. The second is a medium shot or close up of him sweating. The third is a medium shot of Sylvie. Then the dialogue, which usually starts in its own parag.

Chunky, it's all about style sometimes. I like shorter, succinct paragraphs -- like shooting a movie.. long, medium, close shots. However, some authors like to use longer, more complex paragraphs. I'd say do what your style dictates. I'm sure some people don't like my style, but then again, I can't please everyone.

[ChunkyC]

I getcha. Mini-scene wasn't really the right way to describe it.

Upon further reflection, I see one thing that was probably a big part of why I wasn't sure about it as one long paragraph, the final sentence just before Sylvie speaks. If we look at the 'establishing shot' as the furthest away the reader is being held, and Jayson's internal feelings as the closest, then the line about Sylvie walking beside him pulls the reader back a touch from where we had just brought them and therefore must be in its own paragraph, otherwise I'm ping-ponging between stand-off and intimate within one paragraph.

Would you say that any of this sort of movement should stay in one 'direction' within a paragraph, that a 'direction change' requires a new paragraph?

[maestrowork]

otherwise I'm ping-ponging between stand-off and intimate within one paragraph.

Precisely. That's okay -- again it's a matter of style. But you're right, you have "minor" POV changes within your paragraph (omni -> Jayson (internal) -> omni again) and it might be a good idea to separate them.

[maestrowork]

Jumping off the wagon a bit here:

The air was warm, almost motionless, and thick with the buzz of insects--it smelled fresh and clean and alive. Several picayune puffs of cloud floated lazily far above, their edges razor sharp against the deep cyan of the late afternoon sky.

I can't really imagine (maybe I am weird) how warm, stale (motionless), thick air with buzz of insects can be fresh and clean. I guess I lack the other details (maybe it's a morning after a spring shower?) to really get that image.

Also, adverbs. That's the thing you need to change during rewrite. Is it "drifted"? "Glided"? "Sailed"? Something more vivid and appropriate without using an -ly word.

:teeth

[James D Macdonald]

After the intensity of their meeting with the police, Sylvie and Jayson had both felt drawn to the peaceful isolation of the soporific river running through the centre of Georgetown, and they held hands as they sauntered along the bank. The air was warm, almost motionless, and thick with the buzz of insects--it smelled fresh and clean and alive. Several picayune puffs of cloud floated lazily far above, their edges razor sharp against the deep cyan of the late afternoon sky. Sol beat down virtually unimpeded and Jayson's scalp had begun to tingle as perspiration collected in his hair and slalomed down the sides of his head. He was glad of the sensation, it confirmed they were out of the confines of the police station and away from everything it signified. Sylvie walked beside him with her face turned toward the water as it gurgled past.

“Tell me more about your mother, Jayson.”

<HR>

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>After the intensity of their meeting with the police, Sylvie and Jayson had both felt drawn to the peaceful isolation of the soporific river running through the centre of Georgetown, and they held hands as they sauntered along the bank.<hr></blockquote>

That's a bit of a run-on sentence. Watch the adjectives: peaceful isolation and soporific river. Is the comparison to Lethe intentional? Is a river running through central Georgetown really isolated? (In the USA, centre is usually spelled center.) Is "sauntered" the exact verb you want?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The air was warm, almost motionless, and thick with the buzz of insects--it smelled fresh and clean and alive.<hr></blockquote>

"Fresh" and "clean" aren't how I imagine thick, motionless air in the center of a southern city.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Several picayune puffs of cloud floated lazily far above, their edges razor sharp against the deep cyan of the late afternoon sky.<hr></blockquote>

Is "picayune" the right word? Is the alliteration intentional? Are the edges of puffs of cloud really razor sharp? Why say "cyan" if "blue" will do? Is either necessary? "Lazily" verges on pathetic fallacy territory.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Sol beat down virtually unimpeded and Jayson's scalp had begun to tingle as perspiration collected in his hair and slalomed down the sides of his head.<hr></blockquote>

"Sol"? Why make the readers pause to figure out the high-falutin' lingo? How is "virtually unimpeded" different from "unimpeded"? Must the reader imagine some unspecified impediment? Does "slalomed" fortify the image of warmth and peace?


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>He was glad of the sensation, it confirmed they were out of the confines of the police station and away from everything it signified.<hr></blockquote>

Consider using a semicolon between "sensation" and "it." How does having sweat trickle through his hair confirm that he's finished with a police interrogation?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Sylvie walked beside him with her face turned toward the water as it gurgled past.<hr></blockquote>

I'm having a hard time picturing her walking holding hands with him, not watching where she's going. Does the Potomac at Georgetown really gurgle?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> “Tell me more about your mother, Jayson.”<hr></blockquote>

I hope we aren't leading up to a coredump of exposition here.

<hr>
The comments we've seen, about POV shift and direction shift, are good ones. Please consider breaking this up into three smaller paragraphs, with the sentence structures a bit simplified. This is an establishing shot; it should go down fast and easy to put a picture in our readers' minds before we get to the important information.

[ChunkyC]

Thanks for the detailed analysis, Uncle Jim.

A couple of quick things: this is chapter 23. The reader already knows this river is surrounded by parkland within a town, so it is isolated from the buildings, etc. of said town.

Okay, Sol is dumb (even if it is the proper name for our star). :rolleyes

Slalomed -- this is set in a mountain ski area, so I was trying to use words Jayson might use, allude to skiiers moving down a mountainside (yes, I know it's summer in the scene, but the winter and skiing permeates the culture of this town). Slaloming is a zig zag type of sking around poles, his sweat would be zig zagging around the hair on his head. This is how I see Jayson himself perceiving it and he is the POV character in this scene and protagonist of the story.

Your suggestions about adjectives is great. I want to evoke Jayson's feelings of having escaped from the interrogation into the open spaces he loves (he's a park warden, something the reader has known since the first chapter) and it seems I've overdone it. I'll go over it with your comments open beside me (and apply your suggestions throughout the work, of course).

Thanks...Chunky

PS - only too happy to have my stuff eviscerated in public if it means we get to see Uncle Jim wielding his formidable arsenal--yeah, this sentence might be a tad purplish, but it's accurate. :grin

[James D Macdonald]

Imported, and slightly cleaned up, from another thread (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showEditScreen?topicID=457.topi c&index=17):

<hr>

Don't worry about scam agents pirating your works.

The only possible thing they could do with your manuscript would be sell it to a publisher -- and we know they won't do that, right? If they knew how to sell manuscripts to publishers they wouldn't need to be scammers.

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV.

That being said:

Among the elements of proof in a copyright infringement you'll find "access." Independent creation is a defense against the allegation.

So, for someone to win a copyright infringement suit, you'll not only have your original materials, you'll have your correspondence with that individual.

Now it happens that plagairism does exist (http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/personalities/accidental_strength.php). For example: Ron Montana's Death in the Spirit House (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385178263/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) was plagiarized by Craig Strete, who published it as his own. Death in the Spirit House was eventually reprinted under Ron's name as Face in the Snow (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553296337/ref=nosim/madhousemanor). In this case, however, it was an attempted collaboration gone horribly wrong -- WGA, mailing a copy to yourself, copyright registration, none of that would have helped, hindered, or made a darned bit of difference.

That's the only case that comes to mind in the past twenty years from the world of print fiction of an unpublished work being plagiarised.

Dawn Pauline Dunn and Susan Hartzell (http://www.scifan.com/writers/dd/DunnPauline.asp) plagiarized Phantoms (http://koontz.iwarp.com/phantoms.html) by Dean Koontz for two of their books, Crawling Dark and Demonic Color. In that case, Phantoms was already published, so prior existence wasn't hard to prove, and available for sale, so access wasn't hard to prove either.

One more plagiarism suit (http://www.likesbooks.com/lawsuit.html), this one from 1997: Janet Dailey (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060176970/ref=nosim/madhousemanor) copied from Nora Roberts (http://www.news-star.com/stories/073097/life1.html); again this involved already-published books.


There have been whacko cases, of course. A lady who claimed (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/001463.html) that J. K. Rowling copied from her self-published children's books (thrown out of court when it was shown that the plaintiff had manufactured evidence). A lady from New Jersey who claimed that Stephen King had copied her unpublished manuscripts (by reading them through her window while flying by in his airplane) in a case that never made it to court.

Most plagiarism (http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_plagiar.html) cases involve previously printed books, whose contents are lifted in whole or in part for unpublished works. Don't worry about it; just don't copy from someone else's book in your own.

This is without going into derivative works -- using another writer's characters and settings for your own work. No matter how much I like The Lord of the Rings I can't write my own fourth volume. That isn't, strictly speaking, plagiarism.

So ... until you're published, forget it.

On why you might not want to copyright your works before you start sending them around: Say you copyright your manuscript, and start the dance. It sells a year from now. It's scheduled for two years later. So you have a book coming out in 2007 with a 2004 copyright date on it. People spotting it on the shelves for the first time might think it was an old book. Or -- do you want the first editors who come to your novel to know how long it's been batting around the slushpiles of New York?

(I remember one that I saw in the early nineties that had a 1967 copyright on its title page. (I read that one all the way through, each page lifting my eyebrows a little bit higher, as I realized why it hadn't sold in the intervening 25 years. No, I'm not going to tell you the plot, lest the author be here and be embarassed, but I promise you, if I told you, you too would say "Yeah, I see why that one never sold."))

So -- "Poor Man's Copyright" is an urban legend. WGA registration is worthless in print publishing (for all that it might be useful in the world of screenplays). Real, live copyright is of marginal utility, and might do you more harm than good in the print world.

Put it out of your mind. Having your work stolen isn't the first or second thing that you should be worrying about when you're submitting your book.

[maestrowork]

Chunky -- I would like to read your rewrite. ;-)

[ChunkyC]

Maestro, I'll definitely post it so we can compare before/after shots and see how improved it is.

Speaking of before/after, I keep a file in the folder with each story with certain scenes that I feel have improved drastically in rewrite, so I can go back and review the surgeries (and remind myself of big boo-boos I want to stay away from).

Anybody else do this sort of thing?

[Minoterrae]

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[PixelFish]

RE: Plagiarism - The J.K. Rowling case was really whacky, as far as I could tell. The woman, Nancy Stouffer, had a list of a bunch of similarities, but most of the similarities revolved around common English names or terminology. (Furthermore, the works in question were A) a 32 page colouring book printed locally in the US for a very brief period of time (containing the characters Lilly and Larry Potter, brother and sister) and B) a schlocky YA-children's novel that was laughably bad and bore no resemblence to HP except for the fact that there was a race called Muggles. (JK Rowling adapted a bit of British slang to name non-magical humans "muggles". Her muggles and NKS's Muggle's were miles apart.) Still Nancy Stouffer published a list on her website, naming off various similarities, up to and including the incidence of a castle appearing on a cliff above a lake. If we had infringement lawsuits for everytime a castle appeared above a lake, half a bazillion fantasy authors would be arguing cases in court right now.

Of course, my personal favourite point from that case when Nancy Stouffer tried to point out that the title of the first HP book was Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone, which was CLEARLY an infringement on Ms. Stouffer's work which contained a reference to a wizard stone or some such invention. (Much rolling of eyes ensued, since the original title words in the UK were "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" and the titular rock is actually a reference to alchemical lore, and is therefore, fair game for any aspiring fantasist. Elizabeth Enright refers to a philosopher's stone in her YA novel, Gone Away Lake, and that came out AGES and AGES ago--long before Ms. Stouffer could claim to have invented such a phrase.)

[ChunkyC]

I've rewritten the paragraph Uncle Jim critiqued above, and believe some setup info is appropriate before we get to my revision, so that there are no misconceptions....

The setting is a fictional town called Georgetown in the front range of the Rocky Mountains of Alberta, Canada. It is right next to Banff National Park, where Jayson works as a Park Warden. (there actually was a town here called Georgetown, but it faded into history in the early part of the twentieth century.) In the first chapters of the book, the location of my fictional Georgetown is spelled out clearly.

And now, the revised paragraph:

* * * * After the intensity of their meeting with the police, Sylvie and Jayson had both felt drawn to the peaceful isolation of the Bow River. The air was fresh and clean and alive, and thick with the buzz of insects. Several tiny clouds floated above; picayune puffs daubed on the cyan canvas of the late afternoon sky.
* * * * The sun beat down unimpeded as they walked hand-in-hand along the riverbank. Jayson's scalp had begun to tingle as perspiration collected in his hair and slalomed down the sides of his head. He was glad of the sensation; it confirmed they were out of the confines of the air-conditioned police station and away from everything it signified.
* * * * Sylvie walked beside him with her face turned toward the water as it gurgled past. “Tell me more about your mother, Jayson.”

Now, to respond to some of Uncle Jim's comments (see his post of earlier today) and why I've decided to leave in some elements despite his concerns:

Picayune means insignificant, contemptible or petty. Describing a completely empty sky would be boring, no? I want this word because it exemplifies how small an affect these clouds will have on the sunlight striking Jayson in the next sentence. And the alliteration is intentional. I happen to like it, as long as it has a 'musical' cadence and is used sparingly.

I used 'cyan' because 'blue' has to be the most bland word you could use to describe the colour of the sky. In the mountains (where I live), on a bright summer day with a mile less atmosphere above you than at sea level, cyan is exactly what the sky appears to be.

In the first version, I used 'virtually unimpeded' to refer to the tiny clouds that might have offered some impediment to the sun, but Uncle Jim is right about it cluttering things up. In the revised version, I believe unimpeded now more clearly reflects the insignificance of the clouds, and reinforces the use of the word 'picayune'.

As for how sweat trickling through his hair reinforces that he's finished with the interrogation, it punctuates that he's now outside in the hot sun instead of trapped inside the cop shop. I added 'air-conditioned' to help with this.

Sylvie holding hands with Jayson and watching the river--they are on a path she knows well (they were there before in an earlier chapter), but more important: she trusts Jayson not to lead her astray. I wanted a subtle symbolism there. And gurgling--it's a shallow mountain river flowing slowly over a rocky bottom.

Uncle Jim's fear that I might be headed for an expository dump: though Jayson and Sylvie do talk about their pasts as the chapter progresses, I've tried hard to intersperse some lover's playfulness and other business as the key info I want to get out is presented to the reader.

I hope y'all had as much fun with this as I did. Thanks everyone for your input. :grin

[qatz]

Chunky, interesting re-write, but for me it still founders on the first, inappropriate verb. This is not perfect tense. "Had" is overworked 70% of the time, and here it has to go.

Pix, thank you for an excellent commentary on infringement suits.

U. Jim, great observations on the opening. Your audience awaits further developments. Oh, and I did not see this earlier for some reason, but your post on plagiarism is both correct and salient. Thank you.

I am thinking in my indirect way of the method and theory of analogical thinking. I hope to post something soon.

Q

[PixelFish]

Picayune means insignificant, contemptible or petty. Describing a completely empty sky would be boring, no?

Describing the sky at all seems....a little redundant. This scene reminds me of Mark Twain's preface on the weather not appearing in a particular book. (Of course, I promptly went looking for occurences of Weather.)

Use of the word picayune draws the reader's attention, which doesn't really work with the effect you are trying to achieve.

I want this word because it exemplifies how small an affect these clouds will have on the sunlight striking Jayson in the next sentence.

(If the effect of the clouds had upon the sunlight was all that small, would Jayson even have noticed them?)

I used 'cyan' because 'blue' has to be the most bland word you could use to describe the colour of the sky. In the mountains (where I live), on a bright summer day with a mile less atmosphere above you than at sea level, cyan is exactly what the sky appears to be.

BTW, I second the notion about the cyan sky. The colour adjective is really unnecessary, unless the sky is an atypical colour reflecting a weather condition not easily described.

I have been to the Canadian Rockies and Banff, as I used to live in Calgary, and I agree it is a lovely place with a nice, clear sky, but does the sky description really move the story forward? (Furthermore, the description doesn't delineate the setting any more clearly. Every place has sky, and unless you are London or Seattle, clear sky is not an oddity or something to remark upon. The fricking huge mountains are much more unique to my mind.)

[maestrowork]

You need to pick out the details that are important to the scene or plot. Arguing about whether the clouds are insignificant, resulting in Jayson's sweating under the sun seems to me much ado about nothing. It doesn't seem important. I concur with Uncle Jim that you need to describe the setting and scene quickly, paint a picture, then move on to the story. List out what are important here, the describe them as effortlessly as possible:

sky is blue
clouds are scarce
Sun is hot
Air is fresh and clean
insects are buzzing
water is running nearby
Jayson is sweating (does it matter if he's sweating or not? We don't know the rest of the scene...)

- what mood?
- what pace?
- what imageries? (be coherent here)
- can the readers imagine the rest, or is it so out of this world that you have to describe it in such details?

[ChunkyC]

Maestro, Pixel, qatz, thanks for the additional input.

What I'm trying to do is describe a peaceful scene devoid of the recent anxiety both my characters have just experienced. I'm trying to get across Jayson's sense of relief at 'escaping' from the interview with the police, into the environment he loves. The beauty and tranquility of the riverside is what I'm after, because before the chapter is over, I'm gonna shatter this picture Jayson has in his mind into a million pieces.

Good point about the mountains, Pixel, it's just that I've used them before in scene-setting and I don't want to overdo that, which is probably why I went for describing the sky instead this time around, and also because later in the scene, they are sunbathing topless (the year is 2043 & laws have changed) and Jayson uses the heat and danger of prolonged exposure to the sun as an excuse to try to get her to put her top back on (his attitudes are somewhat conservative in this regard).

Even so, perhaps I should stick to the river in this first paragraph. It's Jayson and Sylvie's 'comfort' place, which is why they went there. Maybe I could have him consider the sky at the more appropriate sunbathing moment. Contemplation beckons.

Once again, thanks for the comments everyone, I'll keep working at it.

PS - qatz; first thing to go this time around: 'had both' - Thanks

[maestrowork]

In that context, why don't you describe the scene in relation to Jayson's mind? From Jayson's point of view? Work up some contradictions/internal conflicts, etc. Instead of just using big adjectives to try to "create the mood"? It might make it more relevant, yet gripping.

Here's something I may do (by no means you should write this way. Choose your own words, but this is just an example what *I* may do, based on your texts):

Note: you shouldn't "tell" the readers that "after the interogation... they're drawn to the Bow River..." There's nothing wrong with that, but I personally would prefer the readers to infer to all that (they know the chapter before it is about the police interogation... and now they are at the Bow River...)



The Bow River ran north to south, twisting its way under stone bridges and between two rows of oak trees -- a broad ribbon of sapphire tying the old city of Georgetown with a shimmering bow. The air was crisp and clean, alive with the buzz of insects. Small fragments of clouds drifted across the cobalt sky. Sylvie and Jayson had always felt drawn to the tranquility and peace there, also to a sense of isolation. Now they were back to this world. Away from the other.

The sun beat down unimpeded as they walked along the riverbank. Jayson's hand locked with Sylvie's, and he felt a tingly sensation as sweat streamed down the sides of his face. He welcomed it, knowing that he was now gone from the confined world of the cold police station and into this free world of his own.

Sylvie glanced at the water, her hands warm in Jayson's grip. She turns to Jayson. “Tell me more about your mother," she said.

I didn't write well here, but you get some ideas. A couple things: Sylvie and Jayson walked hand-in-hand... therefore Sylvie WAS walking beside Jayson. No need to say that again. So watch for redundancy. Now if you look at it again, are the clouds important? Do they add to the scene or is totally irrelevant? If they're irrelevant, cut.

Sugggestion is to use some coherent imagineries: ribbon, sapphire, bow... to tie to the "Bow river" and also give a sense of life. Also use parallels: "away from this world"... "from the cold world..." "into the world..." Etc. Etc.

[ChunkyC]

Yeah, I like what you are saying. You have some interesting ideas about how to approach the setup before the dialogue. Funny you mention bridges, the case they were interviewed for involves a body found under a nearby bridge. 0] < closest icon available for paranormal experience :D

I'd like say to all that this has been incredibly educational for me. My achilles heel has always been descriptive narrative. I started this off to look at paragraphing, yet have found assistance I did not expect. I hope everyone else can find something useful here.

Now I must go murder my darlings.... :cry

PS - how come you get to use 'cobalt' and I can't use 'cyan'? Just kidding. :lol

[maestrowork]

Because! Note I use ribbon and sapphire to describe the river, so to parallel that I can now use cobalt. Hee hee.

[James D Macdonald]

Over the course of the past several months I've recommended various books and movies. Here's a all-in-one-post roundup:

===================
Logical Chess: Move by Move (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0713484640/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/)

Anglo-Scots folk ballads (http://www.childballads.com/)

The Bulwer-Lytton contest (http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/)

Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/railton/projects/rissetto/offense.html)

Miriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0877798095/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

The Chicago Manual of Style (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226104036/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Roget's International Thesaurus (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060935448/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

The Elements of Style (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/020530902X/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

The Haunted Author (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/l_author.htm)

I Am A Professional Writer (http://www.cafepress.com/viableparadi.263026)

Turkey City Lexicon (http://www.critters.org/turkeycity.html)

The Sobering Saga of Myrtle the Manuscript (http://www.sfwa.org/writing/myrtle2.htm)

The Unstrung Harp; or, Mr. Earbrass Writes a Novel (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0151004358/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Standard manuscript format (http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~mslee/format.html)

The Miller's Tale (http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/miller.htm)

The Trojan Women (http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/troj_women.html)

Turk's Head (http://members.tripod.com/~cubclub/turk1t.html)

The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312860390/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Misery (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0451169522/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

China Mountain Zhang (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312860986/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" (http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/Warnings/sinners.htm)

How Lucky Can You Get? (http://www.pw.org/content/how_lucky_can_you_get_what_can_happen_after_you_si gn_contract)

On Writing (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743455967/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/)

Magic As A Hobby (http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/submitRare.cgi?author=bruce+elliott&title=magic+as+a+hobby&keyword=&isbn=&order=PRICE&ordering=ASC&dispCurr=USD&binding=Any+Binding&min=&max=&timeout=20&match=Y&StoreAbebooks=on&StoreAlibris=on&StoreAntiqbook=on&StoreBiblio=on&StoreBibliology=on&StoreBiblion=on&StoreBibliophile=on&StoreBibliopoly=on&StoreBooksandcollectibles=on&StoreChapitre=on&StoreElephantbooks=on&StoreHalf=on&StoreILAB=on&StoreMaremagnum=on&StorePowells=on&StoreStrandbooks=on)

A magic trick (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/tricks1.htp)

Alice in Wonderland (http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/rgs/alice-table.html)

Viable Paradise (http://www.sff.net/paradise/)

The Evil Overlord Plot Generator (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/000290.html)

sex, lies, and videotape (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767812158/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Armageddon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ B00000G3PA/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Sweeney Todd In Concert (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000648Y0/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Rules for Writing (http://elmoreleonard.com/index.lasso?page=non-fiction_detail&skip=12&category=&sortorder=ascending)

Elmore Leonard (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=madhousemanor&keyword=elmore+leonard&mode=books)

My Week as a Pod Person (http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/depts/rk0307.htm)

Moonlight Becomes You (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671867113/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

3rd person (http://www.livejournal.com/~jonquils/2112.html) omniscient (http://www.sla.purdue.edu/academic/engl/theory/narratology/terms/omniscient.html)

"Bad Blood" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ 0060267984/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/)

The Murder of Roger Akroyd (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0425173895/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Frankenstein (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553212478/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Christine (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0451160444/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

The Brothers Karamazov (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0374528373/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/)

A Christmas Carol (http://www.literature.org/authors/dickens-charles/christmas-carol/chapter-01.html)

Scrivener's Error (http://scrivenerserror.blogspot.com/2003_12_01_scrivenerserror_archive.html#1070992140 06983999)

The Price of the Stars (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/POTSEXPT.HTM)

Flowchart I (http://www.cpuinc.net/~rcjhicks/)

Flowchart II (http://www.technologyevaluation.com/request/main_edge.asp)

The Tough Guide to Fantasyland (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0886778328/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Richard II (http://www.bartleby.com/70/index26.html)

Lime Pie (http://www.fabulousfoods.com/recipes/dessert/piestarts/lclimemeringue.html)

The Standard Deviations of Writing (http://www.sff.net/people/roger.allen/essays/mistakes.htm)

Slush I (http://scrivenerserror.blogspot.com/2004_02_01_scrivenerserror_archive.html#1075737301 99787039)

Slush II (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html#004641)

Confessions of a Slush Reader (http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2002/02/25/slush/)

Captains Courageous (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0451523814/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Writing (http://www.sfwa.org/writing/)

Boing-Boing (http://boingboing.net/2004_02_01_archive.html#107716444588285115)

Marketlist.com (http://www.marketlist.com/proindex.asp)

Writer's Market (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN=1582971897/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Minority Report (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005JL78/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

L.A. Confidential (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0790734850/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Writing and Publishing 101 (http://www.sillybean.net/archives//001460.html)

Rules for Writers (http://subnet.pinder.net/onwriting/index.asp?name=./References/19970101wolfe.htm)

Red Harvest (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375411259/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Yojimbo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0780022513/madhousemanor)

Last Man Standing (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6304698747/madhousemanor)

Miller's Crossing (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008RH3L/madhousemanor)

Writing Links and Links for Writers (http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/wrlinks-fiction.htm)

story (http://thepulp.net/PulpCompanion/03summer/plot.html)

How Much for Just the Planet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671038591/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

My homepage (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/)

Chess quotes (http://www.ex.ac.uk/~dregis/DR/quotes.html)

Celtic Knotwork I (http://shop.webomator.com/cgi-bin/cpshop.cgi?storecrc=cb&target=prod&page=1&trail=&st=&p=bws01.4397456)

Celtic Knotwork II (http://www.entrelacs.net/en.index.php)

Celtic Art: The Methods of Construction (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486229238/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Circle of Magic (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/wiz1head.htm)

1984 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/0451524934/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Moby-Dick (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/0553213113/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

All Quiet on the Western Front (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0449213943/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Dark City (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0780622553/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

The Fellowship of the Ring (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003CWT6/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Romeo And Juliet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6305364613/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/)

Dr. Faustus (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00018D3PU/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

InArt 3 (http://art3idea.ce.psu.edu:16080/art3/)

Big Words A to F (http://art3idea.ce.psu.edu/art3/basics/a_to_f.html)

Big Words G to N (http://art3idea.ce.psu.edu/art3/basics/g_to_n.html)

Big Words O to Z (http://art3idea.ce.psu.edu/art3/basics/o_to_z.html)

Mid-List Writer (http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/03/22/midlist/index.html)

Joe Scalzi on Mid-List Writer (http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/archives/000703.html)

Nihilistic Kid on Mid-List Writer (http://www.livejournal.com/users/nihilistic_kid/405207.html)

Discussion of that silly Salon article (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004925.html#004925)

Ten pieces of very good advice (http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/archives/000701.html)

The Postman Always Rings Twice (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679723250/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Accidental Strength (http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/personalities/accidental_strength.php)

Death in the Spirit House (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385178263/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/)

Face in the Snow (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553296337/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)

Stouffer/Rowling (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/001463.html)

Plagiarism (http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_plagiar.html)

[troutwaxer]

On the subject of POV, I've got to agree with maestrowork. What makes a story interesting for me is getting to follow a character with an interesting or unique point of view. Tell about what's happening from one of their POVs and give that character some fun thoughts about what is happening or what has just happened. (For my money, at least within SF, you can't do better for an interesting POV character than Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkosign. I think "Memory" is a particularly good example.)

How 'bout this:

<blockquote>
After their meeting with the police, Jayson had been drawn to the peace and isolation of the Bow River. Going outdoors had been a natural, somehow the intensity of the interrogation had merged in his mind with the sounds of the building. As they left the station, he'd been frantic to get away from the ringing phones, the click of computer keyboards, the stale smells and subliminal buzz of the air conditioning system. Here, where the air was clean and full of natural sound, Jayson could relax and come back to himself. He let out a relieved sigh and glanced at the sky. Several tiny clouds floated above; picayune puffs daubed on the cyan canvas of late afternoon.</blockquote>

Being involved, however, peripherally, in a murder investigation should bring up issues for even the soundest mind, and the POV character(s) should have some kind of interior monologue going on, and that monologue and those issues, and any memories they bring up should be interesting. I'm going to make stuff up here since I don't know your book, but go with me.

<blockquote>
Sylvie glanced at the water, her hands warm in Jayson's grip. She turns to Jayson. “Tell me more about your mother," she said.

Jason sighed. The events surrounding his mother's long descent into madness were well known and he'd expected such a question from the cops, but hearing it from Sylvie, who'd always been sensitive to his issues, undermined all his defenses. Suddenly he was young and back at home, his mother screaming that he was now one of them because he'd failed to wear his tinfoil hat to school. The last thing he wanted was to talk about his mother. They'd taken her away a long time ago, and the scars were, if not healed, at least well buried. "You know my mother," he told Sylvie, hoping she'd back off, "what's to know?"

"No." Sylvie's voice was gentle, but very firm. "I mean your real mother."
</blockquote>

troutwaxer

[ChunkyC]

Welcome to the paragraph vivisection class, trout!

Yes, I've come to see that I was initially trying to be overly poetic (and ended up with something clumsy), even when trying to be true to Jayson's feelings about being free of the cop shop.

Each round of revision is slowly banging it into shape. I'm going to keep these posts open on my screen when I go at the whole chapter this weekend, and toss the newly minted version (of the same opening paragraphs) up when done.

If anyone thinks this should be a separate thread, I'm certainly amenable. :)

[Dancre]

hi chunky,
i have to say, your story sounds interesting. but i'd like to throw in my two cents, if i may. i agree with jim, keep it simple. i for one have never heard of the word picayune and had to look it up in the dictionary. remember there are some folks out there who are like me, and have a limited use of the English language. (in otherwords, we don't understand big words. :o ) as for cyan, well i understand that the sky is cyan color but it's been over twenty years since i've been to colorado. i don't remember what the colorado sky looks like, and cyan doesn't bring a picture to my mind. how about just say

Several tiny clouds floated above; white puffs daubed on the dark blue canvas of late afternoon.

and don't you want to keep a showey run through the story? it seems to me picayune and cyan are rather telley.
i know it seems a small thing, but i just hate having to run to my dictionary. on the other hand, i've learned a new word.
and remember avoid having a picayune day. keep smiling!
kim

[PixelFish]

Oh, hey, Chunky....regarding the topless sunbathing: while Alberta doesn't yet have such laws, Ontario allows women to go around topless as far as I know, so there is certainly a precedent in Canada. FYI. (Probably useless knowledge, but hey....)

[ChunkyC]

Kim, thanks for your two cents, really. And Pixel, that's exactly what led me to incorporate that particular item later in this scene.

And once more, a revised paragraph:

Sweat slalomed down Jayson's scalp and tickled the creases behind his ears before soaking into the collar of his shirt. It didn't matter. In fact, he welcomed it. He tilted his head back and squinted at the few puffs of cloud spoiling the perfection of the late afternoon sky...much better than the naked bulbs in the ceiling of the interview room...much better to be hand-in-hand with Sylvie, feet crunching on gravel, the air warm and clean and thick with the buzzing of insects as the Bow River gurgled across the rocky bottom next to them--

"Tell me more about your mother, Jayson."

"Huh?"

I await your thoughts...

[Dancre]

In fact, he welcomed it. He tilted his head back and squinted at the few puffs of cloud spoiling the perfection of the late afternoon sky...much better than the naked bulbs in the ceiling of the interview room...much better to be hand-in-hand with Sylvie, feet crunching on gravel, the air warm and clean and thick with the buzzing of insects as the Bow River gurgled across the rocky bottom next to them--


I like that!! now i have a picture in my head. good job!! not picayune at all. ;)
kim

[ChunkyC]

Kim - the joy I like that!! fills me with makes this whole exercise anything but picayune. :heart

I had been thinking of this paragraph as a long shot bringing us in closer to Sylvie and Jayson until we were right with them when the dialogue starts. Then I had an epiphany after the last few posts that end with trout's. I needed to start off inside Jayson's mind and bring us out instead. I'm so happy you think it works. :D

[Dancre]

i think what i like about this paragraph as opposed to the other ones, is i get the sense that jayson's glad to be out of the prison and with his girlfriend. i get a sense of peace and tranquility. that was missing in the former ones. i also liked how she cut him off from his thoughts, dragging me back to the real world. and no big words. i didn't need to grab my dictionary.:tongue
kim

[Dancre]

i think what i like about this paragraph as opposed to the other ones, is i get the sense that jayson's glad to be out of the prison and with his girlfriend. i get a sense of peace and tranquility. that was missing in the former ones. i also liked how she cut him off from his thoughts, dragging me back to the real world. and no big words. i didn't need to grab my dictionary.:tongue
kim

[HConn]

Chunk, that's a big improvement.

It would be even better with fewer prepositional phrases.

[maestrowork]

I know we have a "share your work" area, but if anyone wants to start our own mini virtual writer's group, I'm game. We can critique each other's work every week (or a few days) via email. Or we can set up critique circle accounts. Anyway, I think that would be fun.

[wwwatcher]

Jim

Can you just clarify for me what the publisher means when they say no simultaneous submissions? This has come up on another board and I just want to make sure I have it straight.

Thanks
Faye

[ChunkyC]

Thanks HConn. That paragraph started out as 153 words out of a 124,000 word novel. And folks wonder why it sometimes takes years to write one.

Maestro, I'm game. :D

[Salve Ghostwalker]

'no simultaneous submissions'

I'm not Jim but this is an easy one:

A market that states 'no simultaneous submissions' is saying "Don't send your story or novel to anyone else while we're looking at it."

There are markets which allow simultaneous submissions, but they're often lower paying, slow-responding markets.

I suspect that Xerox photocopiers originally caused such a big deal to be made about simultaneous subs. The invention of the photocopier allowed writers to crank out multiple copies of their work--even long novels. Previously, writers had to rely on carbons for copies, and they simply couldn't mass produce copies of their work without going to extremes or great expense. Prior to the invention of the photocopier, I doubt that simultaneous subs were much of a problem.

Nowadays, with the majority of writers using printers, it's simple to make 'multiple 'copies' as good as the 'original', so the quality isn't an issue (photocopies, especially early ones, smudged easily). Basically, today's editors are just trying to avoid the many headaches of simultaneous subs. They don't want to deal with the extra subs, or with the additional volume of mail they'd receive from people withdrawing stories after they've sold elsewhere, etc. They also don't want to be told they can't buy a story that they've already invested their time and energy in.

[James D Macdonald]

You can learn whether a market accepts these (and whether they accept reprints, and much else) from their guidelines.

The first thing to know is that publishing is a buyer's market. That this is an unhappy thing for the sellers (we writers) should be obvious.

Next, you need to know that if a work is publishable by one it is publishable by many.

When a publisher buys a book, it isn't just some editor somewhere who reads it, loves it, and buys it all in the same day.

That editor will have to present the book to an editorial review board, pitch it to the publisher, work out a profit and loss statement, and find a hole in the schedule (arrived at with the other editors). Those other things will have to happen before the offer is made. If those things are done for a book that's no longer available (since if it is publishable by one it's publishable by many, the same process may be happening or already have happened across town), that's time and money wasted, alone with the editor's prestige among the other editors at the house.

Thus, publishers do not like simultaneous submissions. If you simsub and you're good enough to be published I guarantee that you'll be caught. (If you aren't good enough to be published, no one will ever know.)

The exception to this is the auction. This is agent territory. If you have a hot book by a hot author, the agent may select a few publishers who are likely to Really Want This Book, call them on the phone, and say "I'm auctioning this work." What that means is that the one who comes up with the best offer is allowed to publish it. Happy you! (Unless the book subsequently tanks, then Unhappy You, and it's time to pick a nice pseudonym.)

[maestrowork]

But doesn't that create a "disadvantage" for the writer? I mean the editor may take a few weeks or even months to evaluate a ms, then she'd say "not for me." Meanwhile, the writer can't submit anywhere else and four months later, he's back to zero.

[maestrowork]

Chunkcy, sent you a message.

[James D Macdonald]

Yep, that's a disadvantage for the writer. Life's not fair.

That's part of what "buyer's market" means.

But what's your hurry? Are you in a rush to get as many rejections as possible? You sent your manuscript to a particular market because, out of all the hundreds of publishers out there who haven't yet rejected this manuscript, these are the guys you want to see publish your book. Right?

[maestrowork]

Life is not fair and that's part of the frustration of being a writer. The stake is high because you're already targeting a very specific publisher. You invest a lot in your ms, target specific publishers, wait a few months, then they turn you down. And you're back to zero. The rejection would be very hard to take if you don't have the right mindset. Some people would think "my clock is ticking" and "it's too hard" and give up. But if you have the right mindset and lower your "expectations" then you may have a better time accepting it and move on (working on your next project; send out another submission)... I suppose for a writer, the "expectation management" is the hard part -- how not to get crushed. Some ms has to wait 10, 20 years to be published. The right time, the right place, the right material.

It can be very frustrating.

[troutwaxer]

<blockquote>
Quote:Sweat slalomed down Jayson's scalp and tickled the creases behind his ears before soaking into the collar of his shirt. It didn't matter. In fact, he welcomed it. He tilted his head back and squinted at the few puffs of cloud spoiling the perfection of the late afternoon sky...much better than the naked bulbs in the ceiling of the interview room...much better to be hand-in-hand with Sylvie, feet crunching on gravel, the air warm and clean and thick with the buzzing of insects as the Bow River gurgled across the rocky bottom next to them--

"Tell me more about your mother, Jayson."

"Huh?"
</blockquote>

Much better. You've got it!

T.

[maestrowork]

Yeah Chunky, much better -- now you're evoking strong, relevant imageries coming from Jayson's POV. Bravo.

I still have trouble with "thick with the buzz of insects" though. I just can't connect "thick" with fresh, clean air. My mind gets stuck there.

[ChunkyC]

I know what you're getting at, Maestro, thick is tactile, but buzz is auditory. I hope readers will link the word thick with sound as in a large volume of insect noises all around them.

Again, thanks all for your input. This has been unbelievably educational for me.

[James D Macdonald]

The best of HapiSofi:

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessage?topicID=301.topic" target="_new">Lee Shore Literary Agency</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessage?topicID=310.topic" target="_new">Need Advice</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=222.t opic&start=28&stop=28" target="_new">Agents Charging Fees</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=205.topic" target="_new">Sex Scenes (...How?)</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=623&stop=623" target="_new">Sex Scenes, version II</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=788&stop=788" target="_new">Typesetting</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=28.to pic&start=82&stop=82" target="_new">1st Books was OK</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=243&stop=243" target="_new">Prologues</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=546&stop=546" target="_new">Midbooks</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=165&stop=165" target="_new">Tone</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=209.t opic&start=361&stop=380" target="_new">PA Authors</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=210.t opic&start=61&stop=65" target="_new">ST Comments I Love It!</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=190.t opic&start=141&stop=160" target="_new">All PublishAmerica Titles are in the Library of Congress</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=267.to pic&start=1&stop=20" target="_new">Decent Typesetting</a>

[allion]

Salon.com printed letters received in response to the article and you don't have to watch an ad to read them. The one that expressed things best for me was from Lydia Joyce:

"I mean, this is a woman who got an advance on her first book of more than $100,000. Forget midlist. Many bestsellers top out at $100k per book.

In excitement about this book, her publisher promoted her hugely. She got the Big Push most of us dream about, publicity, radio spots, tours, TV.

And guess what? She still sold all of 10,000 copies.

Now, after that kind of publicity, I have only one conclusion: The general population believes that she sucks. And I don't have much sympathy."

It was good to see comment from Jane Yolen and Elizabeth Moon as well.

FWIW

[wwwatcher]

Thanks for the inside info. It's good to know the process they go through.

I think I got a reply once where the editor had taken it through and they didn't like it. She hinted in her reply.

Getting caught would be dang embarrassing wouldn't it!!!!!!!:o

Faye

[ChunkyC]

A link to an essay on the origins of fiction, by Robert Silverberg. Interesting and enlightening....

www.asimovs.com/_issue_0404/ref.shtml (http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0404/ref.shtml)

[wwwatcher]

There is a discussion going on Children writer’s board that started with simultaneous submissions and is now touching on multiple submissions, unsolicited manuscripts, unagented material, over the transom, and the pros and cons of letting the editor know that something was requested.

It’s a debate that’s getting kind of confusing for new writers. Do you have a short, sweet version of all of these Uncle Jim? Or a place that the answers can be found?

Here’s the thread if you want to check out the hive of activity.
pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolu...=131.topic (http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm5.showMessage?topicID=131.topic)

:eek

[maestrowork]

The way I understand it:

1. No unsolicited ms
Meaning you must query first. If they request the ms, then it is now "solicited."

2. No simultaneous submission
Meaning if they request the ms, you should not send it to someone else until you hear back from them. It will speed up the process.
Some publisher/agent also calls it "prefer to read exclusively."

3. No multiple submission
Meaning "don't submit more than one work to us."


I think usually unless they say it's okay to send a query plus plus sample plus outline, etc., you should always just send a query first. If they request the material, then it is solicited. If they prefer to read it exclusively, don't send to other agents. That may perhaps speed things up a bit.

I have an ignorant question: how do slush piles work? What are they? How do they work against or for a writer?

Thanks,
M

[James D Macdonald]

Simultaneous submission: You send the same piece to two or more publishers at the same time. Unless the market's guidelines specifically say this is okay with them, don't do it. Once you've submitted to a market, it's theirs until they either buy it, reject it, or you send them a letter withdrawing the work.

Multiple submission: Two or more pieces to the same market at the same time. If the guidelines say don't, then don't. Otherwise it's okay, but probably not your cleverest plan. (You wind up competing with yourself.)

Unsolicited: The editor didn't ask to see it. If you see a market say "No unsolicitied submissions," all that means is "send a query letter first." Don't forget your SASE.

Unagented: You don't have an agent submitting your work. Some publishers say "No unagented works." If you don't have an agent, this isn't a market for you. DO NOT GO OUT AND SEND MONEY TO SOME SCAMMER JUST TO GET AROUND THIS! THAT TRICK NEVER WORKS!

BTW, traditional publishing is very open to talented newcomers. See here (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=28.to pic&start=96&stop=96) for example.

[James D Macdonald]

I have an ignorant question: how do slush piles work? What are they? How do they work against or for a writer?

The answer to that question is in the Sobering Saga of Myrtle the Manuscript (http://www.sfwa.org/writing/myrtle2.htm).

Here is a picture (http://www.sfrevu.com/ISSUES/2002/0208/Event%20-%20Tor/20020416%20Tor-NYC%20059.jpg) of a genuine slush heap. Here's another (http://www.sfrevu.com/ISSUES/2002/0208/Event%20-%20Tor/tn_20020416%20Tor-NYC%20053_jpg.jpg).

[SRHowen]

that none of this applies to queries except the "no un-agented submissions, and no multiple submissions."

They apply to requested material.

And a side note--DO NOT ever EVER decide to send your sub to another editor at the same place while one editor is looking at your work. (had a writer do this because he didn't like what I told him he had to fix in his work so he was working with me and with another editor on the same piece. Of course we get together before the magazine goes on-line--of course he got caught) (and we do know other on-line and some print magazine editors--do you think we don't talk to them either?)

Shawn

[maestrowork]

Boy, now I am depressed. :eek

[ChunkyC]

That first picture looks like one I saw of the Tor offices. Guess where I'm planning to send my novel when it's ready.

Uncle Jim, perhaps a comment or two on foolish attempts to make manuscripts 'stand out' in the slush pile might be in order here. :)

PS - Every person who thinks they'd like to be a writer should read about Myrtle the Manuscript before making a final decision. Those who decide to go ahead are the serious ones.

[Kate Nepveu]

BTW, traditional publishing is very open to talented newcomers.I got March's _Locus_ yesterday in the mail; my first subscription issue. After hanging out on this board, I was pleased to see that at least three of the sales listed in the "Data File" were specifically listed as written by new authors, and at least one of the listed books-turned-in was from a new author (it wasn't noted as such, I just happened to be aware of it). There were several other names I didn't recognize at all, who may have been newcomers also.

[James D Macdonald]

Dark Courier. A wonderful submission font. (Windows TrueType font.)

<a href="http://www.neosoft.com/~bmiller/courier.htm" target="_new">Dark Courier</a>.

[ChunkyC]

Cool, thanks Uncle Jim!

[Prometheus76]

Jeremy walked into the house after a busy day at work. He looked around and thought, "I wonder where everyone is?" He walked slowly to the kitchen and remembered: they're gone.

The cat came downstairs and rubbed up against his leg, still sleepy from the afternoon nap. The orange light coming in the window caught Jeremy's eye. The sun had already slipped below the mountains to the west, but the warm light bouncing off the clouds reminded Jeremy of when he would rush for his camera to capture whatever he could during "golden hour."

He smiled a faint smile and turned to the pantry. He pulled out the gin and took the lemonade from the fridge. A great summertime relaxer. He poured his drink and walked into his den. He sat in a large recliner, eased it back, with his feet up, and drank half the glass of gin. He put the drink on the table next to him and closed his eyes.

He remembered how excited he was, the first time he met Uncle Jim. "Wow, you're a writer? I've always wanted to be a writer, but I'm a little scared."

"Don't be scared, Jeremy. Just put your butt in the chair, play chess with your characters and let your subconscious do the rest. Just be sure you use Courier when you send in your masterpiece."

Could it be that easy? His self-doubt and insecurity told him, "Sure. Try it. Finish a book. And feel like crap when it doesn't sell and you collect rejection slip after rejection slip." Uncle Jim's voice said, "So what if they reject it. Write another one."

So Jeremy wrote.

And he came back to visit Uncle Jim often. Every day he had new ideas, more books to read, new advice, more encouragement.

And Jeremy wrote.

And Jeremy met his other cousins, other writers, separated by circumstance, by time, by age and distance, but family. Family by common joy, common passion, common mistakes, and common tenacity.

The dog barked. Jeremy opened his eyes. He looked through the curtains and saw the paper boy delivering the paper. Late again. No tip this week, little buddy. He looked at the gin glass and saw the water beads on the side of the glass. One reached its critical mass and ran down the side, collecting into a little river of water flowing down the side of the glass and onto the table. He closed his eyes again.

The tone of the discussion with Uncle Jim and his cousins was grand and magnanimous. Little squabbles came up. Nothing big, but enough. Back-and-forth spats. Nattery stuff. Grammar rules and one-up-manship. And people withdrew. The tone changed. Caution set in.

New people came along. "I want to be a writer, too!" The regulars hardly looked up from their keyboards. A nod or a wink to the new person, and then back to typing.

Questions trickled in. "Do I really have to use Courier? And if so, why?" "How do I avoid the slush pile?" "What is a slush pile?" People answered in low tones. Small paragraphs. And Uncle Jim was busy.

Old photocopies of answers from the Old Days were handed to the new people as the roar of fingers slamming into keyboards grew so loud you could hardly think. And people started leaving.

First, one or two picked up their computers and left. We hardly noticed. Then more left. The sound of keyboards changed. It got quieter. People looked around at each other. Awkward smiles. Shrugs. "Where's Uncle Jim?" "I think he's got a deadline."

More people left.

And then there were two.

Jeremy heard the door close. He looked up from his novel. He looked around. He was the only one left. He wanted to call out, to say something. His mouth opened. He went back to typing.

After a couple of days, he realized they weren't coming back. They were gone. No more advice, no more encouragement. Just the blank page in front of him. The blinking cursor.

He opened his eyes. They were wet. He wiped them, got up from his chair and went to his desk. His computer was on, waiting. He clicked on the filename of his novel, took in a breath and pressed "Delete."

[sfsassenach]

Tio Jaime:

I get a bit stuck on the chess thing, since I've never been able to learn the game. Too right-brained. Advice?

[James D Macdonald]

Can't do the chess thing, can't do the Celtic Knotwork thing?

("Right brain" is supposedly Random, Intuitive, Holistic, Synthesizing, Subjective, and Looks at wholes. I'm not sure I believe it.)

I have two other metaphors for writing a novel. Anon, anon.

Turned in a novel a week ago Monday, turned in a proposal to my agent this last Monday, and I'm trying to get a short story finished by Friday. It's been a bit intense.

[sfsassenach]

I love Celtic knots [and all things Celtic] and kind of understand that, but chess is beyond me.

I'd love to hear your other theories, when you've the time.

[James D Macdonald]

This is part of the longer series on Metaphors for Plot.

<hR>

My father, W. Douglas Macdonald, was a chemical engineer and an electrical engineer. Most of his life he worked for building materials companies, including Glidden paint, US Plywood, and Eucatex. He died entirely too youg, 72, of congestive heart failure secondary to chronic obstructive pulmonary disease; that is to say, smoking killed him. (Note to everyone: If you smoke, quit right now.) I miss him very much.

That was his professional life; his hobby was modelmaking, specifically ships and model railroads. He won contests in the 1920s for his model railroad cars. Back when I was young, he let me help him with his modelmaking (talk about your love: the help of six-year-olds can be a challenge). That was where I learned modelwork, which I still enjoy.

All the arts are related; modelwork and novel-writing. Both center on making a world in miniature, a false seeming that convinces the viewer/reader of its reality.

Herewith some lessons I took away, and use in my own works:

No matter how good your model is, it won't be perfect. No matter how much praise you get, no matter what awards you win, you'll never be able to look at that model and see anything but its imperfections.

No one counts the rivets on a moving car.

If you suggest detail, the viewer will add his own details.

The rivets on model cars are badly out of scale. To have visible rivets, they'd have to have heads the size of softballs.

Painted plastic, painted wood, and painted metal all look the same.

It isn't a model until you add people. Before that, it's a clever machine, perhaps, or a toy. Characters bring their own reality, and bring the person looking at the model into the story. Your models tell stories; if you have a car that's got mud on it, or rust, or scrapes and dents, it has a history. The viewer won't know what the dent came from, but he'll know that the car has been places, done things, and subconsciously won't think of it as something that just came from a modelmaker's workbench.

<hR>

Another thing: there were always hidden things, that only the modelmaker knew about. These made the model real to him, and if it was real to him, it would be real to the viewers. For example, once we made a model of the
submarine USS George Washington (http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/ss/ssbn-598/200-hq/ssbn598-index.html). This was a plastic model with a hinged side that could be opened to show the interior. One of the interior spaces had a door that led to the food storage reefer. My dad built and painted scale model hams, hung them in the walk-in refrigerator area, then continued with the model, sealing that area off where it would never be seen.

Sometimes the best model for a thing is the thing itself: nothing looks so much like a load of coal in a hopper car than crushed coal in a hopper car.

Don't put things square on bases; use diagonal lines. They suggest motion.

A frame makes the model seem more real than it otherwise would appear.

Let the paint dry before you touch it.

If you can't see the world you can't model it.

<hR>

I haven't built model railroads, though I love doing model ships and model houses.

Herewith are some exercises for y'all; not too expensive, and again (I promise!) will help your novel writing. (Or, anyway, it's helped mine.)

First off, get yourself a nice HO scale paper model house. Two I've done are <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486273113/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Cut and Assemble Victorian Cottage</a> and <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486290824/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Cut and Assemble Victorian Shingle-Style House</a>. Of the two, the latter has the greater story possibilites.

Build one of the houses. In the building of it, add one interior room. (If you want, you can open doors and windows with your X-acto knife to give other people a chance to see it, or not.) Note: while the instructions don't say it, paint the insides of the chimneys black! If you leave them white, the illusion is broken. If you blacken them, the illusion is strengthened. Anything that
doesn't add to the illusion detracts from it.

Now place the model on a base. <A HREF="http://www.woodlandscenics.com/" target="_new"> Landscape it.</a> (Landscaping can cover a multitude of sins.) Spring, summer, autumn, winter scenes all have different feels.

<A HREF="http://www.discounttrainsonline.com/HO-Scale-Figures-
Preiser/HO_FIG_590_1.html" target=_new">Add people.</a> These tell your story. If you put in a group of folks having a garden party, it's a different story from the model that has a police car and an ambulance pulled up out front of the house, with detectives, dogs, uniformed police, and a stretcher with a sheeted form being wheeled out the front.

Don't skimp on the people. In my model of the shingle-side house, one figure (of several) cost more than the rest of the materials combined. I found it in a hobby shop, and knew that this was the figure I needed. The more realistic the little plastic people, the more real the entire model will appear.

That's it. Learn to see the world. Discover that tree trunks aren't brown; they're grey. See how the same basic, off the rack things, when arranged in various ways, with you choosing the arrangment, make different, unique, artistic stories. Discover that when you mix paint for your Pullman cars using paint chips taken from real Pullman cars, that they look too dark -- you have to lighten the paint to make it look right. Looking right is more important than being right.

The models don't look like much until you have them all put together, landscaped, populated, and framed. Then ... they're magic.

<hr>

Now an exercise for everyone: As you drive along, you'll meet cars coming the opposite direction. Look at the other drivers. You have from the moment they come into view until the car is abreast of you to give them names, and brief histories. In heavy traffic you'll be doing a lot of naming and history-provision. Make sure the names and histories fit their appearances.

[Pthom]

Don't put things square on bases; use diagonal lines. They suggest motion. Frank Lloyd Wright used this very technique in virtually all of his most successful works. Although the buildings were often rectilinear, the path one travels through the spaces is diagonal.

Another technique he employed often was to create a rather cramped entry into a space, so that when you arrived in it, you were stunned by the grandeur of volume.

And who said architecture or writing aren't art?

[maestrowork]

I like the ideas of giving your characters full backgrounds, and not just personalities: experiences, relationships, etc. everything that made the person...

But here come the questions... how do you bring some of these experiences to the forefront (as related to your "current" story) without feeling like you're info dumping or "telling," but at the same time, make the readers aware of what happened. For example, if it's vital for the readers to know that the protag A and protag B had an exchange one year ago that is going to be relevant, how do you bring it up? A cheap way is for one or both characters to bring it up in dialogue, e.g. "Remember what happened last year?" But that feels cheap too, not to mention too much "telling." Sometimes the information is shared by the characters, so they don't necessarily need to "share it" again, but the readers don't know and they need to know. Of course, we can always bring that up in the narrative, but still, you risk "telling" too much.

I think that becomes a necessary and important skills of a storyteller. How to bring out relevant information of the characters without being intrusive.

[MacAl Stone]

Arrggh! Just a day or so ago, I would've sworn I was one of those "not a morning person" writers. But last night, I put in three hours of BIC, with precious little to show for it--about a page and a half, in fact.

Then I woke up at a little after four, with the story shouting at me, telling me where it was supposed to go.

Now it's a little after 7, here, and I have to leave off and go to work, but the last couple of hours were intensely productive.

I live alone, so a quiet house and time to write aren't problems for me, like some of you with families and friends:\ --But there was something about beginning in the darkness, when it was neither morning, nor still night, that seemed to make my own suspension of disbelief much stronger.

The link into the world I am writing--usually tenuous until I am well settled and pounding along on the keyboard for a while--seemed clear, and already established, before I even opened the file. If fact, it seemed almost as if I could step off my front porch into one of the pages.

I'm going to have to set my alarm for 4. :x

Anyone else have this experience with it? Or is writing so much just making me lonelier and weirder?

Mac

[evanaharris]

>>>But here come the questions... how do you bring some of these experiences to the forefront (as related to your "current" story) without feeling like you're info dumping or "telling," but at the same time, make the readers aware of what happened.<<<

see, that's just it, the point is NOT to have all this information about your characters and to tell it all to your readers. the point is to have a character you can walk around.

If it is VITAL to the story, you will have it at your disposal, to include in the story as necessary. the story will ask for it, and you will have it.

It's the exact same reason that it's good to do a ton of research about a particular period of history before writing a novel set in it--so you can walk around in the world, so it's real, so it has things you can pick up and touch and smell.

[ChunkyC]

Hey Mac - I once woke up about an hour before normal and hand-wrote the entire outline of what has become a short story now submitted to a major sci-fi magazine. It doesn't happen often, but that blinding flash of inspiration is one of the greatest thrills I have yet to come across in writing.

[Kate Nepveu]

maestrowork wrote:I think that becomes a necessary and important skills of a storyteller. How to bring out relevant information of the characters without being intrusive.Jo Walton (author of four published novels, Campbell Award-winner) coined the term "incluing" for this, that is, how one clues in the reader--I usually hear this used with reference to world-building, but it works for character backgrounds too.

If you read fantasy, you could do much worse than to pick up either _The King's Peace_ or _Tooth and Claw_ and see how she does it. Other good fantasy examples off the top of my head: Steven Brust's _Agyar_ (diary of someone who's not quite your usual guy); Brust & Emma Bull's _Freedom and Necessity_ (epistolary novel set in 1849, though only maybe fantasy). Both of those are exceptionally good because they're diaries or letters and they only include what the character would *actually* *write* in a diary or letter. (And in fantasy it might be easier to see how incluing works, because there's more of it to be done: the reader needs to know about the world as well as the characters, whereas in mainstream writing the world is assumed.)

Oh! A good sample chunk of _F&N_ is still online: sample at Tor (http://www.tor.com/sampleFandN.html). So, just in the first two letters, we know (among many other things) that James and Richard have known each other since childhood, or at least know of each other's childhoods; that they are cousins through their fathers; that David is a rector; that Richard is romantically involved, but not married to, Kitty; and that they are at least relatively well-off financially. Besides getting quite a flavor of their personalities, of course.

_F&N_ is one of my favorite books in all of the world, I ought to say. But a close study of any of your favorite books would likely be rewarding.

[maestrowork]

So see if I'm correct... the trick is: We don't have to let the readers know everything there is to know about the characters and their relationships with each other... but rather, let the characters and the relationships bring out the story -- if some of that information comes out in the narrative or dialogue (naturally), all the better.

I have had betas who asked me all kinds of questions about my characters and their relationships, history, etc. "Who is this person?" "Why did he say that to her?" I don't feel like having to explain everything... "He said to her because of their history... this and that... this and that... and that's why he acts this way... " It's tiring and irrelevant.

[Kate Nepveu]

We don't have to let the readers know everything there is to know about the characters and their relationships with each other... but rather, let the characters and the relationships bring out the story -- if some of that information comes out in the narrative or dialogue (naturally), all the better.Yes yes yes!

Ahem. That is to say, that's how this reader, at least, vastly prefers it.

[ChunkyC]

I have had betas who asked me all kinds of questions about my characters and their relationships, history, etc. "Who is this person?" "Why did he say that to her?" I don't feel like having to explain everything... "He said to her because of their history... this and that... this and that... and that's why he acts this way... " It's tiring and irrelevant.

It'll be a challenge in rewrite to allow enough of the answers to your beta's questions to seep through without info-dumping, as you said before. You also have to cull what is not required to tell the story, from those elements that will enrich the reader's experience.

[Karen Ranney]

I have to know each character so well that I could identify him blindfold. I have to know his favorite color, where he went to school, who his favorite people and things are, what his childhood was like. Did he draw pictures on the inside of the closet? Collect rocks? Have a pet frog? Have a dog that ran away?

I may not tell the reader everything I know about this character, but it will be revealed. Who he is will dictate how he acts, which is the essence of characterization. His past will dictate his present, and his plans for the future.

[James D Macdonald]

Right on, Karen.

I tell my readers everything they know -- but I don't tell them everything I know. If you know who your heroine's best friend was in fifth grade, and where she went on vacation in the summer between fifth and sixth grade, your character will be consistent in her later actions, in the story that you're telling your readers.

This is another bit of the modelwork question: A viewer can only see three sides of the model house. He assumes, because he knows what houses generally look like, and because you made the angles correctly, that there is a fourth side. This may not be true, you may not have a fourth side on that model house -- but the viewer will supply it.

The viewer also supplies an interior to that house, even though it may quite literally not exist... that's why I suggest that you build at least one interior room in your model house. You will know that it's there, and your knowledge will be transmitted to the people who see your model, through your increased confidence.

Even if you don't want to build a paper model house (though I suggest that you do -- all of the arts are related) you can still play with the Putting A Storebought Thing Into Another Storebought Setting and Creating Something Uniquely Your Own in the Process by using one of those little Collectible Cottages (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Collectible+cottages++&btnG=Search) and some model railroad landscaping (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=model+railroad+landscaping&btnG=Search). Here's where to get workshop instructions (http://www.woodlandscenics.com/collectiblehouses.htm) for doing that.

Remember when I said, long ago, that you had to follow along and work the problems to see what I mean? This is another one of those where I suggest you really try.

How many of y'all have memorized that speech from Richard II? How many have retyped the first chapter from a favorite novel?

[qatz]

Your dad was a genius. Who else but one would make fully formed hams and hang them in the galley of a ship behind shut doors, never to be seen again? I have heard also of others who did this, with different subjects. Geniuses all, in my book. Q

[SRHowen]

can be worked in-- in a tense situation a character might long for a smoke, but refuse to give in because "five years ago it took him a year to quit" or as James said, it took the life of his father or someone important. Small detail worked in--but in a way that seems natural. A simple sentence after describing someone the character just met--she reminded him of his ex wife.

Ahh--background without info dump, he once smoked, he was once married to a (whatever type person that the character just met.)

Once you learn to work facts in this way, you will do it all the time and it will flow with the text so the reader doesn't even know they are getting past facts but they will come away from the story feeling like they have a complete picture of the character.

Shawn

[maestrowork]

So, you do somehow sneaked in "background" information in a non-intrusive way? Or do you just leave it (and not tell the readers)? E.g.

He longs for a smoke, but he doesn't dare touch a cigarette.

OR

He longs for a smoke, but he doesn't dare touch a cigarette, not after quitting after five years of struggle.

Either way, the character does something that is true to his character, but one doesn't tell the readers why, and the other does. Which is better?

[SRHowen]

The first just adds confusion and annoyance--the reader knows you know why he can't touch the cigs, but you are not telling them. Not good.

The second gives the info and you move on. But the reader now puts things into perspective--the pencils your main character chews, and tiny bits of paper he is always brushing off his desk into the trash can after tense phone calls--etc.

Shawn

[James D Macdonald]

He longs for a smoke, but he doesn't dare touch a cigarette.

OR

He longs for a smoke, but he doesn't dare touch a cigarette, not after quitting after five years of struggle.

Not enough information to tell which is "better." What's the chapter it's in look like? What's your usual style? What else is going on?

Is it even necessary to mention him longing for a smoke? Me, I'd just say He longed for a smoke and leave it at that.

[ChunkyC]

So, Uncle Jim, let's see if I'm getting this....

Just saying 'he longed for a smoke', coupled (lets say) with the fact said character never actually smokes during the story, should be enough to let the reader fill in the rest for themselves. Everyone who reads the story who has quit should superimpose their own struggle onto the character. Saying it took 5 years might distance the character, ever so slightly, from those readers who took 2 or 10 years to quit. The fewer of these kinds of tiny 'distancings' you have, the better for your story.

??

[HConn]

Mac, that's exactly what happened with me. I hated getting up in the morning and finally tried it because evenings and afternoons simply weren't productive.

Now I wouldn't write any other way.

I'm not a morning person. I don't expect I ever will be one. But I still get up at 4 am.

[qatz]

i did that for one or two of my books. i was so darn dopey, but there was time to write. only trouble was, it was the worst writing i ever did! well, it was pretty bad, anyway.

[Karen Ranney]

I think that a book is the purest form of Virtual Reality. The writer provides one half of the experience, and the reader brings the other half.

If a writer says: The room was square - that's not enough information. But if a writer goes on and on and on with an intrusively detailed description, the writer is removing the need for the reader to participate in the Virtual Reality s/he has set up for him.

There's a happy medium, a way to put in just enough detail (or that one wall Jim discusses) to stimulate memory and recall. The room was dim, with a musty odor that reminded him of his grandmother's house. I know EXACTLY what that smells like - my grandfather's house in Missouri. Tell me about a rose, and I'll recall a rose I saw. Hint at a starry night and I'll remember last night staring up at the clear cool sky.

Tell me too much and you're wasting one of your greatest assets, my investment in your work.

It is my belief that a lot of writers overlook that second part of the writing equation - the reader's participation. Dare them to enter into your world, to join in on this great adventure you've created. Use their memories and their pasts. Each reader will bring different something different to the experience. Why else would some people love a certain book and others hate it?

[maestrowork]

It depends on your genre though. If you write fantasy or sci-fi, you tend to have to describe the settings, people, etc. in great details because you're putting the readers in a strange world. A rose is not a rose until you say it's a normal rose (it could have been a man-eating rose with chainsaw for teeth). Other than that, I agree.

[James D Macdonald]

If you write fantasy or sci-fi, you tend to have to describe the settings, people, etc. in great details because you're putting the readers in a strange world.

I dunno about that. I've written a series of SF books that includes faster-than-light spaceships.

All we know about the way those spaceships work is this:

They have engines.
The engines have tubes.
They need fuel.
A hyperspacial reference block is a neccesary part.
That reference block can get out of alignment.
When it gets out of alignment, you need a synchmeter to fix it.

That's plenty, don't you think?

Remember this: books are about people, and people are people no matter where or when.

[PixelFish]

I broke my synchmeter last Tuesday and I kept meaning to repair it, but the parts I needed were mysteriously missing. Why would that be, do you think?

(I blame it on Nelson over in Engineering--he's always borrowing my tools and parts, and he returns them with this hunched, hangdog expression that says he knows he does wrong and he really will do better next time, but he never does.)

[Prometheus76]

I wrote that little story (Empty Nest was the working title. Should be called something else that I can't think of right now) the other night when I checked the board and noticed no one had entered anything for awhile. That situation reminded me of sitting in an IRC chat room and people coming in and saying, "Hello? Anybody here?" and when that person is you it can feel lonely. I went with that loneliness and whipped up that little story. I am still working on my novel, but that sadness/loneliness feeling over an abandoned blog or empty chat room led to my little story. Anyway, I am disappointed that I didn't get one comment on it, good or bad.

*sigh*

[James D Macdonald]

RAEBNC

[James D Macdonald]

Right on, Karen.

Writing/reading is an act of co-creation. (That's one reason writers want readers....)

We don't give folks an experience, we give them the blueprint with which they build their own experience. We give them two points; they construct the rest of the line.

[James D Macdonald]

You don't know how much this lady annoys me. She isn't a mid-list writer. I'm a mid-list writer. She's a wannabe front-list writer who's discovering that she might be a mid-list writer (Sob! Horror! Woe!).

Here are a couple more responses to that thing:

This one has <a href="http://www.bookslut.com/blog/archives/2004_03.php#001776" target="_new">some very good advice</a> for all writers.

Here's a dead-on accurate <a href="http://www.teevee.org/archive/2004/04/01/arts-fanfic.html" target="_new">parody</a> of the original weepy article.

[ChunkyC]

Prometheus --

It is a nice piece of writing, actually. Some of us (I for one)were involved in some pretty intense threads right around that time. Why don't you post it over in 'share your work' and I'm sure some of us will have a go at it. Just add the info from your follow up post about why you wrote it so anyone who hasn't seen it will get the context.

By the way, did you note how quickly things picked up after you posted it? :)

[nemron2004]

Writing thoughs, I have seen these wrote normally, bold, and italics. Which is the correct way?


Are you too replace the italics with underlined in your anuscript?


thanks :grin

[nemron2004]

ooooooops, just found another post that answers this question

nemron :grin

[James D Macdonald]

You can indicate these with italics (which are indicated by underlines in your manuscript), or by saying "Bill thought," or by some combination of the two.

Entire paragraphs of italics are hard to read. If your book includes entire paragraphs of thought, consider writing it another way, or indicating thoughts in some other way.

Don't worry about it. House style is going to rule in any case.

Oh, yes, another link:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/school_idiot/hp.htm" target="_new">This piece</a> has many insights on writing and the writing life. It's all true, too.

[Kate Nepveu]

"Every book is three books, after all; the one the writer intended, the one the reader expected, and the one that casts its shadow when the first two meet by moonlight."
--John M. Ford, "Rules of Engagement," in _From the End of the Twentieth Century_

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html" target="_new">Why 98% of the slushpile is unpublishable.</a>

[maestrowork]

That's why you need betas, crit group, etc. etc. to give you an honest opinion.... I always tell my readers with sincerity that "if I suck, please tell me -- no feelings hurt! I need to know so that I don't continue to waste my time thinking I'm a good writer." I'd rather my readers be honest and critical (I can always veto their opinions, but I need to know them) than giving me false compliments in order not to hurt my feelings.

[ChunkyC]

"if I suck, please tell me -- no feelings hurt! I need to know so that I don't continue to waste my time thinking I'm a good writer."
Exactly right, Maestro. Ever since I started hanging out here, I've been discovering why my novel bounced back like a superball the two times I sent it out.

My first readers are also friends, and not publishing industry professionals. As eager as they were to be honest with me, I can't discount the possibility they held back to spare my feelings. Add to that their amateur skills at whipping a manuscript into publishable shape, and all I really got from them (valuable as it was) is that they liked the story. This was enough to encourage me to seek a higher level of expertise in the form of this forum.

It is a shock to suddenly get feedback far more incisive and critical than any received before, but it's value is equally great. I'm learning to take it on the chin, :blackeye and then come back for more. 8o

[maestrowork]

Take it like a man, you mean. :grin

[ChunkyC]

That too. :cry

:lol

[Dancre]

i have to agree with you two. i've had my doubts about my writing abilities. i'd rather have someone say, i suck, than to have someone pat me on the back and lie to my face.

Hey, U.Jim, can you send that article on why 98% of slushpile never makes it to the PA boards? maybe that'll help em. never know.
kim

[Thekherham]

I hope this is the right place for this. If not, I'm sure you'll let me know.

Is there a difference between these sentences:

Billy was kind to animals.
Billy was not unkind to animals.

In other words, I'm wondering about the not un____ phrase.

Thanks.

[James D Macdonald]

Is there a difference between these sentences:

Billy was kind to animals.
Billy was not unkind to animals.

In the first, Billy is kind to animals. In the second, Billy could be kind to animals, or he could be indifferent to them. He could be anything at all in relation to animals except unkind to them. The second sentence is more ambiguous.

I'll overlook the obvious differences in sentence rhythm and complexity, though those might take more importance when you're figuring out which sentence to use in a given paragraph.

[maestrowork]

Of course there's also:

Billy is nothing but kind to animals.

and

Billy is anything but kind to animals.

and

Billy is only kind to animals.

Three different meanings, the third being the most provocative.

[maestrowork]

I have a line like this in my novel:

1:
Instead, the woman staring at me in horror is not someone I know.

I could have writen it this way:

2:
Instead, the woman staring at me in horror is someone I don't know.

But version 1 sounds better. And there's a slight difference in meaning.

[pina la nina]

On the inability to self-judge competence: reminds me of one of our grad students (who thinks he's sooo smart, of course) who took an exam last month. I asked him how it went. "All right," he said, "At least Professor X's question was really easy." Sure enough - he passed, but barely, having bombed Professor X's question.

Maybe when something feels too easy - it just might be.



Maestro - I hate to go way OT here but I'm confused about why you picked #1 over #2. To me they are both confusing, I think its the "instead" that makes my brain tired reading them. With double negatives I feel like I'm unravelling a logic puzzle.

[wwwatcher]

Great Comment Karen

I would guess many of the things we struggle with in writing could be worked out by considering this relationship with the reader... what are they expecting... what do they need to know... how are they going to take this, etc.

To Maestro

I was thinking... a man-eating rose by any other name is still a man-eating rose. It's not a man-eating daffodil or a man-eating tree.

To Prometheus

Dear Prometheus during some of my greatest crisis' in life I have frantically tried to contact every one of my friends and relatives to help me out and found none of them home. These were the times I was meant to deal with it alone. When I finally realized there was no one to help me and I was left to my own devices, I found that within myself I had everything I needed to deal with it. These situations built my self-confidence when that is what I needed most.

I ignored your post because I wanted to give you the same opportunity. As a writer, particularly, you'll find it a very useful life experience.

Take Care,
Faye:clover

[qatz]

ray, that phrase has roots but standing by itself it is one of the least cool things you've said lately. why it is preferable to taking it on the chin escapes me. i'm not saying your writing sucks but i am saying you can be injudicious in your phraseology, for circumstances vary and words are meant to communicate a meaning. i say this as your friend. i'll not degrade myself enough to take on the author of the unbelievably ugly so-called word "tighttush" any more. but for you, because you have somehow impressed me, here's this offer: send me 5 K of your best words, and i'll tell you whether they suck, and if so how. you know how to get ahold of me if you want. let's see if you have the guts to do so.

[qatz]

the not un-something construction is used for a purpose. it has a particular sound. what is it exactly, precisely, you're saying? how does the sound work? how will the meaning play out?

otherwise, i agree with Jim. Q

[James D Macdonald]

International Slushpile Bonfire Day (http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.html?id=950)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>New York -- One of the most onerous tasks in the magazine and book trade is the sifting of the slush pile. Slush piles, the collection of unsolicited and unagented manuscripts sent to publishers by beginning or would-be authors, are sometimes the source of future literary successes, but more often than not are the source of headaches and indigestion. Many editors privately complain and scream about the uselessness of slush piles, but fearing a backlash from beginning writers who already assume conspiracies keep their work from being printed, very few speak out about the quality and quantity of the material received.

With this in mind, the international literary community announced a special amnesty day for those long-suffering editors forced to sift through manuscripts where everything but the name of the author was misspelled on the title page. April 31, 2002 marks International Slushpile Bonfire Day, where editors and publishers are encouraged to collect all of the unreadable or unusable manuscripts that have built up in their offices, in some cases since 1968, and burn them while drinking wine and singing songs. Since one of the worst offenders is the science fiction / fantasy / horror triumvirate, SF, fantasy, and horror editors are allowed to place the first documents and light the pile when complete.
<hr></blockquote>


And while we're at it: <a href="http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=14052002-055042-1541r" target="_new">Brilliant Sri Lankan Novelists Go Home</a>

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>NEW YORK, May 14 (UPI) -- Did you ever notice that the books in the airport reading rack -- the books that everyone actuallyREADS -- are never the books that are reviewed in the big Sunday book sections?<hr></blockquote>

[MacAl Stone]

oops . . . good thing my unpublished manuscript--chronicling a woman's search for a lyrical small-town full of wry insight--is sitting in a slushpile in New York! Hate for poor Joe Bob Briggs to have to read a review about it some day :tongue

Just read a really fabulous essay by Ursula Le Guin, "Science Fiction and Mrs. Brown", (Language of the Night, Berkley 1985 edition).

Le Guin spends quite a bit of time discussing Virginia Woolf's "Mrs. Brown"--reiterating what Jim and others have said, again and again, here. Novels are about people. When a novel tries to be about something besides people--technological gizmos, a GRAND THEME, a moral lesson--that novel fails, on a level, even if it's still somehow readable. Le Guin's mark of success for a novel is whether she can remember the characters' names some time later.

But she said something that intrigued me, and I've wondered about all evening, so I thought I'd ask.

Leguin talks about seeing a character in her mind, and she perceives the novelist's task is to get from where you sit to where the character lives. She said one of her worst short stories was about one of her most clearly perceived characters:
My first effort to catch him was a short story. I should have known he was much too big for a short story. . . . It was a really terrible story, one of the worst I have written in thirty years of malpractice.

She says a writer must develop an "infallible sense" for the proper framework--length--for the idea.

Is this just practice? Lots and lots of practice, combined with superlative intuition? What does it feel like when you have a sense, "this is a short story" versus "this is a mondo, whacking, multi-volume saga"?

Maybe I'm just asking, gosh, folks--d'ya think Robert Jordan had ANY freaking idea what he was getting into :ack

sorry. I should have resisted the Robert Jordan dig . . .

Mac

[Karen Ranney]

I'm a little odd in that I think the only person who ought to tell you if your work is good or bad is a.) an agent, or b.) an editor. Critque groups are all well and good but you can spend an inordinate amount of time driving yourself nuts trying to fulfill their idea of a good book. I feel the same about beta readers. They rarely help. Most of them don't want to hurt your feelings. Fellow authors are the worst, because they want to re-write your work to their specifications. (Whenever people ask me to read something, I pull out the old red pen. It teaches them not to ask a second time.)

Okay, that said, then how do you know whether or not you're good? You just do. Whenever you have an inkling that you need someone to tell you if you can write, re-examine what you've written. You're either afraid to admit it sucks or you want validation that you're the world's greatest writer. A clue - whenever you've written something that you consider brilliant, erase it. It's your ego talking.

New writers have to step out on that ledge. Believe it or not, that cringing uncertainty will help you in the end. In fact, I've never quite lost it, and it makes me try harder, stretch farther, and dare more with each book.

My opinion entirely.

[nemron2004]

Hi James, I have gone out to buy your recommended books, just one question. I am living in the UK, should I buy 'Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition' which is american-english or buy one from the UK?

nemron :)

[James D Macdonald]

You're British, writing in Britain, presumably for British markets? I'd say a British dictionary should be your choice.

[nemron2004]

yeah, I shall look for a good Uk dictionary. Is it possible to submit to publishers in the US from Britain?

thanks

nemron :)

[Kate Nepveu]

Sure it's possible to submit to US publishers from Britain. I know someone who was bought out of the slush that way.

Do your homework as usual, of course.

[ChunkyC]

New writers have to step out on that ledge.
And a scary one it is, Karen.

Personally, I think first readers, critique groups, etc. help the most early on, when a writer is still struggling with learning and incorporating the basic skills. Your point is well taken, that at some point, we each have to say to ourselves: damn them all, I know what I'm doing is right for me, and I'm just going to have to sink or swim with it.

I'm not there yet, but there are stirrings.... :grin

[SRHowen]

at the start those groups are the most useful, being with the same group for two years + I can say that in the beginning they were great, now i find myself often saying what the heck?

Once you advance beyond the other writers around you (those giving you advice) the group loses it's value. Luckily, several members of my group are also at the published or about to be stage, so I still get a lot of useful info.

But I also get a lot of fluff I don't need, but I need their input as readers. What do you as a reader think, and that helps me the most at this point--as really the only person I care about right now (opinion wise) is my agent.

Shawn

[ChunkyC]

but I need their input as readers
Great point, Shawn. After all, once the book hits the shelves, it's not your agent or publisher who's going to be buying it.

[James D Macdonald]

I reiterate:

If a reader tells you that there's a problem in your book at a certain point, he's almost invariably right. If he tells you what the problem is or how to fix it, he's almost invariably wrong.

<hR>

Some other toys:

<a href="http://www.kokogiak.com/amazon/" target="_new">Amazon.com without the BS</a>.

Want to obsess over your Amazon sales rank? <a href="http://www.junglescan.com" target="_new">This site</a> makes it easy.

[ChunkyC]

Right on, Uncle Jim.

To use an analogy from cooking: you can follow a master chef's recipe to the letter, but if your dinner guests all spit your creation back onto their plates...who's right?

[DBellamak]

Critque groups are all well and good but you can spend an inordinate amount of time driving yourself nuts trying to fulfill their idea of a good book.

This was my experience and it lead to much confusion and more frustration than I wanted to manage. I found I kept most of my writing to myself.

I don't always catch my own mistakes or in recognizing them, don't know how to go about fixing them. Feedback, for this reason, is helpful to me. However, wading through rivers of personal opinion to get to honest insight can be so tedious.

Happy writing to all,

Diann

[aka eraser]

I was addicted to tracking my book's numbers on Amazon via Junglescan, especially when it broke into 4 digits. It is fun seeing the graph take shape over weeks/months but I'm over it now.

Pretty much.

[Karen Ranney]

An addendum to my earlier post about critique groups. I always pay attention to readers, and if I notice a trend, I really pay attention to that. However, I don't give a lot of credence to reviewers. Everyone has a bad day and just because they failed to recognize brilliance when they see it...(tongue in cheek there, in case it wasn't spotted).

And Jim, you have the greatest links. Amazon lite? Too funny. Now I have something NEW to obsess about. Oh joy. :snoopy

[qatz]

you're a joy, as always (albeit too infrequently).

[ipsda]

I was wanting to know the proper to state the name of a ship in a manuscript. I have a ship named The Sea Dream, what is the proper way to put this in the manuscript.

The Sea Dream
or
'The Sea Dream'

Which is the correct way. Is the same way used for the name of something like a diner.

Garrett's Diner
or is there another way to do this.

Thanks for any help.
Bruce

[qatz]

ships' names are capitalized. The Bon Marie.
i don't think they're in quotes, at least not formally. i think you can do that if you want. "Princess Jenna." But what do I know, anyway?

diners, like other businesses, are capitalized. Joe's Bar.

[Beaver]

The last book that I read with ship's names in it - James Clavell's Tai Pan (Great book by the way) - had the ship's name in italics. Thats how i've been doing it for one of my stories.

Beaver ;)

[qatz]

were not italicized formally, as a general rule. i have seen it from time to time. Clavell italicizing his was a matter of style, and not half bad. you know,more i think of it, the unitalicized ship was more a nineteenth century thing. i lost my formbook but the modern formal practice may be italics for them. but, anyway, what do i know?

[PixelFish]

If I remember correctly, the We're Here was italicized all the way through Captains Courageou.

I can never remember if you are supposed to italize long works and underline short or if it's the other way round.

[Lori Basiewicz]

In my copy of US Navy's Bluejackets' Manual (copyright 1960), all the ship's names are italicized.

[ipsda]

Thanks for the info. I really appreciate it.

I will italicize the ship's name.

Thanks
Bruce

[reph]

"Names of specific ships, submarines, airplanes, and spacecraft are italicized, but not such abbreviations as S.S. or H.M.S. preceding them" (Chicago Manual of Style, 12th ed., para. 7.96).

[MacAl Stone]

I've been re-reading through the links Uncle Jim so thoughtfully consolidated for us. There was, earlier in the thread, a discussion of prologues, during which Hapi Sofi said:
Here's a basic rule of exposition: Never tell the reader something before he or she wants to know about it.

Here's another rule: Reader are interested in setups and backstories because there's a story happening inside them.

Here's a third rule: Start with the story. Then continue with the story. Add in worldbuilding, backstory, setup, etc., only insofar as it's needed in service of the ongoing story.

And it occurs to me, this advice seems valuable with regard to lots of other information, as well--setting descriptions, character appearances, etc. In short, all those details that we, as writers, spend sooooooooo much time lovingly dreaming up, thinking through, and writing down in our notebook/compendiums to ensure consistency (wait a sec--were Bill's eyes blue, or brown, in chapter two. . .)

It's actually tremendously interesting to read through Hapi Sofi's posts, one after another. I dunno who this is (stylistic resemblances to one of my favorite web-logs, aside) but this is obviously REALLY informed and valuable advice from someone familiar with the publishing industry.

Another remarkable exercise is to read through the thread skipping everyone's posts except Jim's.:hail

I sense a couple of cut-and-paste evenings in my future . . .
gawd--sooner or later I really SHOULD sleep.

[James D Macdonald]

<blockquote>And it occurs to me, this advice seems valuable with regard to lots of other information, as well--setting descriptions, character appearances, etc. In short, all those details that we, as writers, spend sooooooooo much time lovingly dreaming up, thinking through, and writing down in our notebook/compendiums to ensure consistency (wait a sec--were Bill's eyes blue, or brown, in chapter two. . .)</blockquote>

This is related to making every word reveal character, advance the plot, or support the theme. Better still is if the words do two or three of those things all at once. Hold a gun to each word's head and make it justify its existence. Every word needs to be the right word, in the right place. (See above, the discussion of that opening paragraph from a chapter, with the fellow who just got finished with a police interrogation who goes walking by a river with his girlfriend.)

Anything that doesn't add to the story subtracts from it.

Consistency helps you avoid illusion-breaking. But just because you know something doesn't mean you have to tell your readers. The readers will assume that anything you tell them is important, and hold it in mind, expecting you to use the inforrmation later in your story. It's possible to overload your readers.

BTW, if you ever do cut-n-paste all my posts together into one document, if you'd send me a copy....

[maestrowork]

Maestro - I hate to go way OT here but I'm confused about why you picked #1 over #2. To me they are both confusing, I think its the "instead" that makes my brain tired reading them. With double negatives I feel like I'm unravelling a logic puzzle.

The original (in context) is:

[protag is writing a note to his lover]... I hear the door open and I turn, expecting Kate. Instead, the woman staring at me in horror is not someone I know...[the scene goes on]

There are, of course, many ways to write this. But in this context, I do think it works. None of my betas had issues with it (including an English professor), so I'm quite confident about it. Sometimes, I go for the "sound" and I kind of like the ring to it...

[maestrowork]

I reiterate:

If a reader tells you that there's a problem in your book at a certain point, he's almost invariably right. If he tells you what the problem is or how to fix it, he's almost invariably wrong.

Right on. Last weekend I fixed a major problem (character issue) that my betas have told me about. They didn't push for the change because it was only one small part of the book and it didn't stop them from reading on... they just said what they felt was "weird" but they didn't offer to tell me what the problem was and how to fix it. Now I see it, I know they're right and I know what the problem is and how to fix it. It's an easy fix.

Moral of the story, always listen to your readers.

[MacAl Stone]

Jim Macdonald said:
BTW, if you ever do cut-n-paste all my posts together into one document, if you'd send me a copy....

I'm actually about a third of the way through this project. Strangely enough, it's a pretty coherent document, too. Reads pretty well, even without surrounding posts, responses, questions, etc.

I'll be happy to send you a copy when I've finished, Uncle Jim.

[ChunkyC]

Wow, Mac. Uncle Jim--that's an e-book (or paper book, for that matter) I'd read over and over....

[evanaharris]

that's something I've been meaning to get around to, Mac. If you need a place to store it, my site's got plenty of space, and I'd be happy to link to it from here (if Jenna doesn't want the complete unedited version duplicated, takign up bandwidth)

[MacAl Stone]

Okay, guys--here is the scoop: while I, personally, might think it's a GRAND idea to go through 50 pages of this thread, cut-n-paste together a document, to store on my hard drive, or print out, for my personal use...and I think it a MARVELOUS idea to put the document up on the web, so anyone can link to it, and save themselves the hours of work. . .

It's not mine to do that with. They aren't my words. I'll send the thing to Uncle Jim when it's finished, and he can make whatever permissions for its dispersal he sees fit.

Hope that doesn't make me sound like a hopeless prig:nerd

[ChunkyC]

Not at all, Mac. That's why I directed my comment about reading the finished document to Jim himself. I think what you're doing is a great idea :thumbs , and await Uncle Jim's decision on what to do with it.

[MacAl Stone]

Thanks, CC -- sometimes I'm not sure when I'm just being uptight and unreasonable. I appreciate the validation!

[MistyEve]

I've been reading here for days and all I can say is -- WOW -- what a great place to learn.

Thanks so much to all of you for the invaluable input -- most especially to Jim. This is an amazing place!

My question is probably a naive one.

You all sound so 'together' and focussed in what you're doing - leagues ahead of me at this point.

But ... HOW do you choose a location/setting for your story?

When your ideas hit, is the setting already 'there' for most of you - or is this something you choose afterwards?

HOW do you decide?

Also - I am Canadian. (Just over the Rockies from you Chunky).

I'm wondering if most Canadian authors more often set their stories in the US -- rather than Canada?

Do you feel Canadian authors -- do less well, or are less popular than American authors?

Do you feel that books written by Canadian authors, set in Canada, do less well than those set in the US?

Do you think this is even an issue for Canadian writers?

Is this an issue in Britain and other countries?

Thanks guys ...
Eve

[maestrowork]

I choose my locations from places I have lived, visited, or read about. However, I don't choose the settings first, then the story. I usually have a pretty good idea of what my story is about, then I look at where to set it. I tend to like to take my readers to some place exotic -- Asia, to be precise. I have been to parts of Asia so I can draw from my own experiences -- what I don't know I can look up.

My second novel is based on, in part, my dad's life. So I have decided to set it in SE Asia, China and North America.

I honestly don't think it matters if you set your story in Canada or US or Europe or the moon. As long as it is a good story, take your readers away!

I think it's fair to say: choose settings that you're comfortable with, and at least know something about. If it's a personal story, set it in your hometown. Or somewhere you'd like to visit again. If it's some kind of journey, take your characters away from this familiar world. But always, story first, settings next.

[SRHowen]

write what you know---or what you can learn about.

Shawn

[ChunkyC]

Misty! How's it goin', eh?

I know what your concern is. I have felt it too. But like Maestro, Shawn and the others say, just tell a good story. Science Fiction (what I try to write) especially is a genre where readers expect to be taken somewhere else, though truth be told, that is true of all fiction. You are creating a world your readers have never experienced, be it set in New York, Hong Kong, or Calgary. Your characters are ultimately what will draw the reader in.

An example of someone who has had success writing stories set in Canada is award winning Science Fiction author Robert J. Sawyer. Both his agent and publisher are in the USA and they don't seem to have a problem putting out his books.

Nice to meet you, Misty. Enjoy yourself here, it's a great place. :hug

[DBellamak]

Hi Misty,

I've only ever been to British Columbia (twice), but I remember it being very pretty country. I confess I don't know much about Canadian writers. Do they often set their stories in the US?

Playing on Shawn's input "what you can learn about," experience is a great teacher. Writing takes me places I'd never go if it was just about me. It's not. My characters are people too. They have lives that (in ways) don't include me. They do things I don't normally do.

Setting, for me, helps give a story structure, credibility and continuity. Who my characters are and knowing what they want to accomplish helps me know when and where I should put them.

I'm glad you're here. Welcome.

Chunky--How do you like writing sci-fi? What appeals to you most about it? What sort of obstacles do you find and how do you handle them? I ask because I just recently committed myself to the fantasy/horror realm.

Happy writing,

Diann

[qatz]

i am very glad you are here. welcome.

my tiger book had to do with snow lions in the himalayas, among other things. it started in tibet.

my bodies-in-trunks book has to do with bodies in trunks. it starts where the bodies are found. oh, and lori and others, it way preceeded your interest.

my southwest-explorer books started with explorers in the SW.

my north american novel started with a bank robbery in montreal, and a train roaring into new orleans.

find your story, and that will tell you something about the setting.

if you want an example of someone who uses sense of place well, try robert stone.

as james DMcd says, quite well, a novel is a mansion of many chambers. use the positional theory of chess. put yr pieces in the right places, and they'll perform for you.

i wish you all the best, and here's a welcome hug. ((misty))

Q

[Wryteress]

Reading this was a fabulous string of lessons! Thanks to everyone who shared their knowledge. :hail

I once read an interesting article (whose origins are, unfortunately, lost in the warren of my brain...) where the writer rhapsodized about the link between the writer's culture and the culture he/she wrote about. In other words, the history the writer grew up with affects the possibilities his or her imagination reaches for. The example given was science fiction.

The article stated that US history showed two (over-simplified) ways of dealing with those who are different: absorb them so the differences disappear, or destroy them. Canadian history includes the first two, but adds a third: an uneasy sort of truce, "you ignore me, I ignore you". The article then went on to list science fiction novels by both Canadian and American authors to support the thesis statement, where the aliens were fully integrated, were bug-eyed monsters everyone was trying to kill, or where contact was new and everyone was trying to figure out how to get along.

What I found particularly fascinating was the link between the concepts a writer absorbs through enculturation and the cultures he or she creates. Since reading that article I took a gander at some of my older stuff, and what do you know, there were bits I could attribute to the old history lessons. Those I could not link to my own country's history were often things I had 'borrowed' from other cultures.

Anyone else notice this? Any questions? Comments? Ripe fruit?

[evanaharris]

Okay, guys--here is the scoop: while I, personally, might think it's a GRAND idea to go through 50 pages of this thread, cut-n-paste together a document, to store on my hard drive, or print out, for my personal use...and I think it a MARVELOUS idea to put the document up on the web, so anyone can link to it, and save themselves the hours of work. . .

It's not mine to do that with. They aren't my words. I'll send the thing to Uncle Jim when it's finished, and he can make whatever permissions for its dispersal he sees fit.


I believe Jim gave me permission to do this (put it on my website, link to it from here) when I proposed the idea to him a month or so ago...but I never got around to it. At any rate, we'll let Jim have final approval, and, as I said before, I'd be more than happy to host it from my site.

[James D Macdonald]

Sure, I don't have a problem with that, provided there's credit given, and a link back here.

Though, I think I'd like a chance to go through and edit the final document .... and it's likely the discussion will continue.

I (believe it or not!) do intend to write a few more multi-screen posts on Writing.

[ChunkyC]

Chunky--How do you like writing sci-fi? What appeals to you most about it? What sort of obstacles do you find and how do you handle them? I ask because I just recently committed myself to the fantasy/horror realm.
Y'know, Diann, this sounds like an idea for a new thread. I'll start one & you can see my personal answers to your questions there. I'll call it 'Why that particular genre?'

And Uncle Jim / Mac / Evan, a big thanks for taking on the 'Uncle Jim Documentation' project. :clap

[MacAl Stone]

All righty, then! By the way, the document is getting a bit lengthy...lol...so evanaharris--I'm glad you've got room for it!

[Joanclr]

After a number of long sessions I have finally caught up to the end of this glorious thread. I have had to withhold myself from commenting throughout; after all, a comment I would make about a discussion happening on page 13 would only show up on page 49, and what would be the sense in that?

Be that as it may, I have arrived at last and so I thought I would say hi, and perhaps you will be hearing more from me in the future.

Thanks to Uncle Jim and the others here who have given such great writing instruction. This is by far the best writing thread I have ever read.

Happy Saturday!
Joan

[ChunkyC]

Hi Wryteress.
The article stated that US history showed two (over-simplified) ways of dealing with those who are different: absorb them so the differences disappear, or destroy them. Canadian history includes the first two, but adds a third: an uneasy sort of truce, "you ignore me, I ignore you".
I'm curious about the author of the article, because I have never felt that our country tries to ignore newcomers. Some individuals might, but as a whole, we try to welcome them.

The statements in the article you mentioned can be exemplified by how our two cultures are described at times. In the US, I believe it is referred to as 'The Melting Pot'. In Canada, we use the phrase 'The Cultural Mosaic'. Nowadays we try to look at each new immigrant as another patch to add to our quilt. They become part of the whole, but will remain distinct and identifiable forever. At least that's the ideal most of us up here are striving for.

These differing ways of looking at things have to influence a writer as they develop. :)

[maestrowork]

BLAME CANADA!

[qatz]

welcome. oh yeah, and everyone is invited to a cyber party this evening for my new business with Lisa Abbate (that is, ahem, Sugar Muffin), which we're officially announcing today! www.wordmountain.com, a freelance editing and consulting business for serious writers and those that would like to be. go to Office Party, Humor Writing, Announcements, and other places like that! Hope to see you! Q

[ChunkyC]

Love that movie! :lol

[Joanclr]

Very nice site, qatz! And thanks for the welcome too :)

[wwwatcher]

Pardon me, Maestro?

Did you want to clarify your last statement and tell me how it relates to writing? As it stands it has me a little confused.

Faye::huh

[evanaharris]

just let me know, mac, and i can probably have it posted the day jim approves it.

[James D Macdonald]

Chicago Manual of Style? Hah! I got yer Chicago Manual of Style hangin'!

Go Fowler!

Here (http://www.bartleby.com/116/index.html) is the ultimate reference for every question you ever had about English usage. And it's free!

Or, get it in hardcopy (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0192813897/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/), suitable for smacking other members of your writing group upside the head.

[SRHowen]

:snoopy :jump

Sorry, James, but I laughed out loud about the smacking the others of your crit group up side the head line.

I often say and think things like that but tend to temper them. Or, um, try to anyway.

Shawn

[qatz]

fowler is good. was a fowler once. we went through the woods with these muskets, shooting birds. :shrug

[ChunkyC]

What I found particularly fascinating was the link between the concepts a writer absorbs through enculturation and the cultures he or she creates. Since reading that article I took a gander at some of my older stuff, and what do you know, there were bits I could attribute to the old history lessons. Those I could not link to my own country's history were often things I had 'borrowed' from other cultures.

Anyone else notice this? Any questions? Comments? Ripe fruit?
Hey again, Wy. I thought this deserved more discussion, as it relates to Canadian authors (for example) setting their stories in Canada. This also harkens back to the 'write what you know' adage. I think it would be tough for a writer who grew up in Australia, say, to write a story set in Germany, without doing extensive research. Even then, a native German might pick out inconsistencies no one else would notice. It would require great skill for a writer to fully create a character or setting from a culture he/she was not familiar with. It's one of the challenges we writers face.

In terms of science fiction, where the writer almost always is creating an imaginary culture, I agree that the sensibilities of the culture the writer belongs to are going to seep in. I can't see how they wouldn't.

[MacAl Stone]

CC said:
In terms of science fiction, where the writer almost always is creating an imaginary culture, I agree that the sensibilities of the culture the writer belongs to are going to seep in. I can't see how they wouldn't.

Having just read through The Language of the Night, I can't help but observe that Ursula Le Guin (perhaps hereafter to be referred to as Her Holiness Le Guin) commented on this, also. She says:As soon as you, the writer, have said, "The green sun had already set, but the red one was hanging like a bloated salami above the mountains," you had better have a pretty fair idea in your head concerning the type and size of green suns and red suns. . . .if you are ignorant of these multiple implications of your pretty red and green suns, you'll make ugly errors, which every fourteen-year-old reading your story will wince at. . . .

I think this brings us back to Uncle Jim saying to tell the truth, whenever possible--your readers will sense it. In sensing that you write truth, they are more willing, when the time comes, to suspend their disbelief.

[Dancre]

my beta reader informed me that my characters are a bit overdeveloped, and suggested i underdevelop them. i'm a little lost as to what she means. she's really a newbie like me, so i thought i'd ask the pros. what is the difference between an overdeveloped and an underdeveloped character? thanks.

[MacAl Stone]

wow, Kim...not sure what to think about that...is she saying maybe you give too much info, and don't leave enough to the reader's imagination?

I kind of like the idea of "transference/counter-transference" with characters--that is, if I can give enough info to make the character seem familiar to the reader, they will fill in the blanks with characteristics from their own experiences, and people they know...and develop a relationship with the character unique to the reader's own experience/reading.

Now I'm going to borrow from CC, and qualify that with "but then again, what do I know?"

[evanaharris]

Kim,

Maybe if you asked her for specific examples (or you gave them to us), we could tell better. Your friend's critique is a bit vague.

I'd side with Mac, though, and say that it's probably too much information. Storytelling is all about the giving and withholding of information. Too much info, and the reader cannot get into the story, because it is defined for them. Too little, and they can't stay in the story, because it doesn't give them anything to latch on to.

[Dancre]

i think you're both right, i think i'm giving too much info about my characters. i always felt that if i didn't tell the reader why the character did what she did, folks might get lost. but i guess i could loss some of the info, let them figure it out for themselves. i'm going to talk to my beta-reader, see if i can get more information from her. and evan, i like your sig tag. good job.

[maestrowork]

I think you need to ask your betas the specifics and also realize that not all of them are right, but their opinions would give you some insights. I had one beta who wanted me to explain everything -- why the protag liked red instead of blue and how he and the girl met, etc. and she wanted more internal monologues. While I thought she wanted too much info, now I do think that some of her comments were very useful in terms of story flow and character development.

[ChunkyC]

Kim, in the novel I'm trying to beat into shape, I asked my beta readers if they could visualize each of the characters. The odd part is, the only character they had trouble picturing was the one I spent the most time describing. I thought it was bizarre, until I realized that I had tried to 'force' them to see an image I had in my mind, rather than let them come up with one of their own. It sure is a balancing act trying to convey what you want while leaving enough room for the reader to create an image of the story and the characters for themselves.

[maestrowork]

I tend to describe my characters with only a line or two, then mostly through their actions and dialogues. It's interesting how my readers visualize them. I wrote one female character as a tall and manish British woman. One of my readers later told me, "You know who'd be perfect in the movie version of this story? Linda Hunt." So it seems like it doesn't matter if she's tall, manish and British... my readers seem to visualize them any way they want.

[James D Macdonald]

It sure is a balancing act trying to convey what you want while leaving enough room for the reader to create an image of the story and the characters for themselves.

This isn't actually hard: Only include those details that are important to the story, and don't include the details until the reader cares about those details.

[Dancre]

This isn't actually hard: Only include those details that are important to the story, and don't include the details until the reader cares about those details.

now why is it you make it seem so easy? thanks, jim. oh, by the way, i knew that i was just testing you. that's my story and i'm sticking with it. :hug

[HConn]

I just wanted to have the 1000th post in this thread.

[MacAl Stone]

I started to appreciate just how much information this thread really contains, when I realized my cut-n-paste document was over 50 pages long--back about a third of the way through...and that's only Uncle Jim....

I'm clipping along at just over half-way there, btw, guys, should have the file to Jim in a couple of days, so he can edit himself.

[Dancre]

thanks for doing that, mac. i was going to do it for me, but i'm hoping uncle jim will share so i won't have too.
:grin