Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[euclid]

I like PlanetC's version, only maybe shorter: "DFS put us in a group home." Jennifer always thought of the Division of Family Services as a grotesque uncle...

Chris Huff: I believe Finnegan's Wake is a bitch, although I never found the time to try it. I agree with you there. It probably should never have been published.

[smsarber]

Here's a bigger part of the section, so you can see what I'm doing. I definately think it is clear, but let's see what the masses have to say;)

“Not something I talk about much. When we were young, our parents split.” Jefferson shook a Marlboro out of a pack, then pushed the car lighter into its receptacle. “I don't mean split up, I mean split.” He lit the Marlboro, and inhaled deeply. “I was twelve, my brother was fourteen. We were alone in the apartment a month before the landlord came bitching about the rent. We were both malnourished, and Demetrius was sick with the flu, as well.

“DFS put us in a group home, then Demetrius got placed with a nice, stable family in the city. I didn't see him again for over a year. After he moved out, I ran away from the group home and joined in with the gangs."

[Calliopenjo]

Here's a bigger part of the section, so you can see what I'm doing. I definately think it is clear, but let's see what the masses have to say;)

“Not something I talk about much. When we were young, our parents split.” Jefferson shook a Marlboro out of a pack, then pushed the car lighter into its receptacle. “I don't mean split up, I mean split.” He lit the Marlboro, and inhaled deeply. “I was twelve, my brother was fourteen. We were alone in the apartment a month before the landlord came bitching about the rent. We were both malnourished, and Demetrius was sick with the flu, as well.

“DFS put us in a group home, then Demetrius got placed with a nice, stable family in the city. I didn't see him again for over a year. After he moved out, I ran away from the group home and joined in with the gangs."


It looks good. It explains enough and if the reader wants more information they still have that option.

[Bukarella]

Hello! A fresh newb, right here. :e2writer:

I am just starting to explore fantasy and sci-fi for the younger reader. I am committed to two projects, and I have been faithfully writing every day for the past two months. On one hand, I'm proud of the progress I've made and the things I've learned. I feel good about my story-lines, and feel confident about certain passages.

On another hand... Any advice for those days when you feel your writing is dry and your plot is pointless? It can be very discouraging and frustrating! :Hammer:

Thanks!

[James D. Macdonald]

Any advice for those days when you feel your writing is dry and your plot is pointless?

Yes.

Write anyway.

(If you need a Permission to Write Badly certificate, I can give you one (http://www.sff.net/people/yog/permission.pdf).)

[Bukarella]

Yes.

Write anyway.

(If you need a Permission to Write Badly certificate, I can give you one (http://www.sff.net/people/yog/permission.pdf).)

Aw! Just what I need. I better sign it, in case someone asks who let me write this nonsense.

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

Would you mind if I pass on the certificate? My writing group would love it. :LilLove:

[James D. Macdonald]

Print up as many as you need. Discounts for writing groups!

[James D. Macdonald]

Not to disagree with the man whose name is on the thread, but...

If it's entertaining it's right.




Yeah, that's one way it could work.

[PlanetCaravan]

Here's a bigger part of the section, so you can see what I'm doing. I definately think it is clear, but let's see what the masses have to say;)

“Not something I talk about much. When we were young, our parents split.” Jefferson shook a Marlboro out of a pack, then pushed the car lighter into its receptacle. “I don't mean split up, I mean split.” He lit the Marlboro, and inhaled deeply. “I was twelve, my brother was fourteen. We were alone in the apartment a month before the landlord came bitching about the rent. We were both malnourished, and Demetrius was sick with the flu, as well.

“DFS put us in a group home, then Demetrius got placed with a nice, stable family in the city. I didn't see him again for over a year. After he moved out, I ran away from the group home and joined in with the gangs."

In context, it's even more clear. I think you're good.
Adding an explanation would just slow things down. That's my opinion, anyway.

[smsarber]

Cool! Thanks:)

[euclid]

I agree with PlanetC. No sweat. Even I could work out what sort of org DFS is.

Note the spelling of definitely, Steve.

[smsarber]

Thanks, no idea what I was thinking-- usually I'm a pretty good spiller, spaller, speller. Oh good, that's better;)

[James D. Macdonald]

I've been telling you this for years. (http://www.genreality.net/the-reality-of-a-times-bestseller)

[smsarber]

Aw, you didn't have to post that link... we believed you, Uncle Jim!

But seriously, thanks! Great tidbit there.

[allenparker]

I've been telling you this for years. (http://www.genreality.net/the-reality-of-a-times-bestseller)


So, the rumors of a secret decoder ring, handshake, and special brightly colored jacket are false? Say it ain't so!

Next, you will tell me they don't get to sleep in the Lincoln bedroom.

[Judg]

I must confess, I did think a bestseller would pack a bit more of a financial punch. *sigh*

[Perle_Rare]

I guess the secret is in following one novel with another and then another, ad infinitum. The combined royalties would eventually add up to a more interesting amount.

Just as Uncle Jim has been telling us for years... :D

[euclid]

I've posted a piece (1600 words) in SYW. If any of you critters would like to take a look at it, maybe sharpen your crit skills, I'd be mighty grateful.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3512052&postcount=1

[FOTSGreg]

I've also got a piece up at SYW which I'm pretty proud of (bear in mind that it needs a spell check and a bit of editing, but...)...

Here's the link...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137308

It's Post #11 in completed form.

[Neversage]

I'll bite.
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134696

Any feedback is welcome, and thanks again to everyone in this thread for teaching me so much.

Also, can we get another page one analysis going? I love those.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Euclid,

I left a crit for you. Good luck. ;)

I'll do the others later.

[smsarber]

The Hounds of the Moor is over in Horror. Euclid, don't be mad if I royally screwed up England;)

Has anyone ever felt such a strong desire to write a story, had it mapped out, sat down to do it and just lost it? I'd walked down to the store earlier, and as I was walking back I saw a Corvette with driving gloves on the dash, and had a great idea for a flash fiction comedy. For once I remembered it when I got back... usually I only have a thready idea of the premise, which I write down and sometimes later come back to. Missy Duquesne was one such story. Had the idea mapped out, forgot it before I could get it out, but the final product was much better than my first vision of it.

[James D. Macdonald]

And it's time to play First Page!


1. First Sight

My mother drove me to the airport with the windows rolled down. It was seventy-five degrees in Phoenix, the sky a perfect, cloudless blue. I was wearing my favorite shirt--sleeveless, white eyelet lace; I was wearing it as a farewell gesture. My carry-on item was a parka.

In the Olympic Penninsula of northwest Washington State, a small town named Forks exists under a near-constant cover of clouds. It rains on this inconsequential town more than on any other place in the United States of America. It was from this town and its gloomy, omnipresent shade that my mother escaped with me when I was only a few months old. It was in this town that I'd been compelled to spend a month every summer until I was fourteen. That

Okay, everyone! Do you turn the page, or do you put the book back on the shelf?

[Cyia]

And it's time to play First Page!



Okay, everyone! Do you turn the page, or do you put the book back on the shelf?

Actually I skipped this page. Had I read it first, it would have gone back on the shelf. This page especially sounds like a 30+ year old woman speaking rather than the 17 year old girl it's supposed to be,

[Red_Dahlia]

1. First Sight

My mother drove me to the airport with the windows rolled down. It was seventy-five degrees in Phoenix, the sky a perfect, cloudless blue. I was wearing my favorite shirt--sleeveless, white eyelet lace; I was wearing it as a farewell gesture. My carry-on item was a parka.

In the Olympic Penninsula of northwest Washington State, a small town named Forks exists under a near-constant cover of clouds. It rains on this inconsequential town more than on any other place in the United States of America. It was from this town and its gloomy, omnipresent shade that my mother escaped with me when I was only a few months old. It was in this town that I'd been compelled to spend a month every summer until I was fourteen. That

:e2thud:I finally made it to the end! I just wanted to give you a big thank you, Uncle Jim, for all the hard work you've put into this thread. It has given me some of the best writing advice I've found, and has turned me into a mostly-faithful BIC-er (I'm working on improving though).

As far as this first page goes, I've recently read the book, at a request of a friend, and so I suppose it's safe to say that I DID turn the page. However, if it hadn't been loaned to me by a friend, I don't think I would have. It just seems like the writer is trying too hard, especially by using inconsequential, omnipresent, and compelled in the same paragraph. Besides, I don't usually enjoy books that begin by discussing the weather.

[Bukarella]

And it's time to play First Page!

Okay, everyone! Do you turn the page, or do you put the book back on the shelf?

I'm a newb, so I don't know the rules... But I will tell you that I read that book. The voice was very easy to stick with, at least for me. ;)

I'm a fan. :TheWave:

[Calliopenjo]

I'd put it back. Ms. Swan is already complaining.

[Bubastes]

I read it and put it back. The voice put me off. I agree with Cyia: it didn't sound like any teenager I know.

[smsarber]

In a word, no. It's clunky, and trite. I have no idea what it is or who wrote it, but a few people have already chimed in to say they have read it, so it must be fairly popular. Goes to show you something. Don't know what, but something.

[Chris Huff]

And it's time to play First Page!

Okay, everyone! Do you turn the page, or do you put the book back on the shelf?

If I didn't have to read this for a class, I would have put it back on the shelf.

[Judg]

I'm not sure. It would probably depend on what kind of a mood I was in and how much time I had available. Which is to say, it's on the edge for me. It's not awful, but there's not much of a spark either. So if I was coming at it with a glowing recommendation from a friend whose opinion I respected, I'd turn the page expecting that things would pick up later. If I was feeling cranky and had picked the book up at random, maybe not. Although I usually give a book a little more time than this to hook me. I don't mind quiet beginnings if there are hints of the glories to come or a very fine voice. So far, I haven't encountered either in this.

[jodiodi]

I wouldn't go on.

The character doesn't compel me to read further. I don't know who it is or why I should care. Any reason to read further isn't on the first page. There's no hint tnat anything interesting is going on or that it will happen in the future. I'd have had to read the back cover or reviews to know if I wanted to read that book.

But just the first page, no. It doesn't grip me.

[smsarber]

So if I was coming at it with a glowing recommendation from a friend whose opinion I respected, I'd turn the page expecting that things would pick up later. If I was feeling cranky and had picked the book up at random, maybe not.

I agree. And sometimes the book I didn't give a chance the first time I ever picked it up really turns out to be good. Not often.

It seems nearly everyone but me read this. What the heck is it?

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Steven,

Go to Amazon.com and in the search bar type "Twilight." Look for an icon that says "Look inside." Click it. Look for something that says something like "the first pages" and see how far you get.

I got to page two. Out of curiosity mostly.

[smsarber]

You could have just said "Twilight" and I would have understood. While I am interested to read it to see what all the fuss has been about, I just don't want to subject myself to it. I feel pretty much the same way about the Harry Potter series.

But I would love to have those authors's understanding of what will sell and drastically increase their bank accounts:).

[smsarber]

Here's a little something my wife was just saying to me. We were discussing the "Do you turn the page?" idea, and she asked why we look at such a small part of the book to decide in this excercise. I said as writers we need to strive to draw readers in from the first paragraph, first line, if possible. I told her some people might open the book at the bookstore, read the first few lines, and make their decision that way. Now, Crystal is the type of woman that gives things more of a chance. Luckily I believe that there are many people like her, that may stay on the fence with the first few pages, and if it gets better, well, you get the idea. But I know we have to write the best that we can. And for me to do that, I want to grab the reader from word one.

Crystal did give me an example of a book that has a slow start that is one of her favorites: East of Eden by Steinbeck. She said the first chapter is all description of scenery. That's something he probably wouldn't have gotten away with today. But based on her recomendation, I'm going to read it when I finish Ghost Story by Peter Straub.

Uncle Jim, can we play along with the "Turn the Page" game? Could we post the first page of our novels-in-progress to see if our colleagues would turn the page and read on?

[jodiodi]

Crystal did give me an example of a book that has a slow start that is one of her favorites: East of Eden by Steinbeck. She said the first chapter is all description of scenery. That's something he probably wouldn't have gotten away with today. But based on her recomendation, I'm going to read it when I finish Ghost Story by Peter Straub.

I feel your pain with Steinbeck. I have an English degree and was forced to read books that should be outlawed under the Geneva Convention. But they're considered 'classics' and 'important'.

I think a lot has to do with what we read books for and the time in which they were written. I read strictly for entertainment though I hope I learn something when I'm reading, even if it's just a new word. Our society today has so much more stimuli than it did back when many of the 'classics' were written. Hence, most of us are conditioned by TV, movies, computers--fast-moving stories, instant gratification.

I think anything that gets people to read has some intrinsic value, whether it's something I'd read or not.

[maestrowork]

I love first page stuff... great tools for learning critical analysis.

1. First Sight

My mother drove me to the airport with the windows rolled down. It was seventy-five degrees in Phoenix, the sky a perfect, cloudless blue. I was wearing my favorite shirt--sleeveless, white eyelet lace; I was wearing it as a farewell gesture. My carry-on item was a parka.

In the Olympic Penninsula of northwest Washington State, a small town named Forks exists under a near-constant cover of clouds. It rains on this inconsequential town more than on any other place in the United States of America. It was from this town and its gloomy, omnipresent shade that my mother escaped with me when I was only a few months old. It was in this town that I'd been compelled to spend a month every summer until I was fourteen. That

OK, we have two characters, and a setting. Sounds good so far. And I get the idea that the narrator is leaving Phoenix going to a town her mother came from, but she's been spending one month every summer... That's intrigue.

However, these two paragraphs seem a bit info dumpy for me. It's a set up -- there's really nothing wrong with it. It just sounds more like an introduction ("Hi, my name is... and I'm from..."). I am not crazy about the writing in these paragraphs... too many vague adjectives. "Cloudless blue sky" is always a bad sign in the FIRST paragraph...

Will I read on? Probably. It's a start. Is it interesting already in these two paragraphs? Not particularly, but then again, it's not entirely dreadful.

But I agree about the voice. I had no idea this is about a teenager. The voice doesn't match. However, it could be a 30-year-old woman narrating about her past, so that's okay. I guess I will have to read some dialogue to see if it rings true or not.

If I'm looking for a book to read in the store, however, I probably would put this one back and look for something else. Not that I think this sounds dreadful already -- it just seems rather uninteresting.

[smsarber]

Definitely. If it will get kids reading, and off the video games and television, it could be a cookbook for all I care. My seven year old loves to read and have books read to him. Of course, he also loves his video games.

[James D. Macdonald]

For our work in progress, I think it would be better to use Share Your Work, elsewhere on this board.

In a bit, a line-by-line on the book excerpt above.

I know I've suggested this before, but I'm going to suggest it again: Go down to a bookstore and watch people as they decide what book to buy. What do they look at first? What is the last thing they do before they either put the book back on the shelf or walk over to the cash register?

As far as Steinbeck: By the time he wrote East of Eden he was a known quantity. People who read and liked his earlier work would give him far more room than they would give the same book with a different name on the cover. Remember that the last chapter of your current book sells your next book.

[bettielee]

When I was a teenager, I didn't know what eyelet lace was and if i did, I doubt I would have mentioned it... or worn it. It's the same stuff my Gramma had rimming the doilies on her side tables. And end tables. And on the back of her chairs. And in the middle of the dining room table... and you get the picture. Lots of doilies.

[smsarber]

The last chapter of your current book sells your next book. That's a great thing to keep in mind!

And you're right, the SYW is a better place. I just don't get many repsonses there anymore. I may have scared everyone off;)

[pookel]

I would and did turn the page. I thought the writing was clean and the voice was clear and compelling. Unusually mature for a teenager, but then, some teenagers are like that.

I didn't make through more than about half the book, though. The dialogue tags bugged the hell out of me. I can't read books where characters are constantly whispering, muttering, grumbling, shouting, and declaring things because the author is afraid of the word "said."*

* Unless it's Bujold. She gets a pass on this one from me because she does it so well even I don't notice.

[DamaNegra]

I read the book to write a paper on it. The paper turned out to be a 10-page rant about the awfulness of the book. Then I polished it and now I'm reading it in front of an audience tomorrow. In short: I wouldn't have turned the page if I had my reasons to do it. The rest of the book is as "interesting" as those few paragraphs.

[jodiodi]

I recall taking a course in Sir Walter Scott. The first book we had to read was Guy Mannering and I loathed it. I even told my professor, when he asked what we got out of the book, "I feel like I just read a book for class. It meant nothing to me." And I still got an A in the class.

Fortunately, we had 5 books we had to read and had to do our paper on a 6th book we chose on our own. I chose The Abby and was glad I did. I enjoyed that book much more than the required reading except for Ivanhoe and The Bride of Lammermoor. If I hadn't been required to suffer through the boring books, I'd never have read the others. I found them much more exciting and enjoyable.

So the suffering paid off.

[smsarber]

I put the first page of A Birthday Suicide up in "Other" in SYW. I've been working on this book for so long, I think I finally have the opening the way I want it, and the rest of the rewrite is at least moving along. I will finish this damn book if it kills me!

[euclid]

No, I wouldn't pay money for a book that starts like this. I agreed with everything Maestro said. There was just enough interest there to turn to page 2, but I almost certainly would not buy this book.

If it's one of Stephenie Meyer's, I wouldn't have picked it up in the first place, wouldn't have got past the cover. I'm not interested in reading about vampires (or teenagers).

[motormind]

If it's one of Stephenie Meyer's, I wouldn't have picked it up in the first place, wouldn't have got past the cover. I'm not interested in reading about vampires (or teenagers).

Which, of course, doesn't say anything about the quality of a work. There are very fine novels about vampires--and teenagers. It's just that this particular work is horrible.

[Cyia]

If it's one of Stephenie Meyer's, I wouldn't have picked it up in the first place, wouldn't have got past the cover. I'm not interested in reading about vampires (or teenagers).


Except you can't tell what they're about from the covers. The covers are very well done, and totally non-representative of the material inside.

[Perle_Rare]

My reaction to the first page is in line with Maestro's though his is more eloquent. I have not read it yet.

I picked up the Twilight book for my 12-yr old daughter because I'd heard about it and I wanted to expose her to something that wasn't Tamora Pierce (fantasy) or Ed Greenwood (D&D fantasy). She generally devours books and yet she was the only one in her class who had not yet read it though she felt a certain amount of pride in being a hold-out.

She reports that she hated the first part of Twilight but continued to find out what the hoopla was about. Then, when she was done, she quickly read the next 3 books in the series to get to the end. She didn't like book 2 and wasn't thrilled about book 4.

Now? She's happy she can talk intelligently about it with friends and has an appreciation for some parts of the series.

If there had been no "noise" about the book, I would never have picked it up. And no, the first page wouldn't have grabbed either me or her.

[MiltonPope]

And it's time to play First Page!



Okay, everyone! Do you turn the page, or do you put the book back on the shelf?

I've started too many poorly written books lately. This is written well enough that I'd turn the page, but only once. In this case, if the page 2-3 layout didn't look promising, I'd close it.

Beyond that, I agree with Maestrowork's analysis.

--Milton

[vox]

...It was from this town and its gloomy, omnipresent shade that my mother escaped with me when I was only a few months old. It was in this town that I'd been compelled to spend a month every summer until I was fourteen. That


Okay, everyone! Do you turn the page, or do you put the book back on the shelf?

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic but, I see some intrigue here:

From what did her mother escape? Surely it was more than just the weather. Why was escape necessary? What compelled the girl to return every summer until she was fourteen? Did she comply willingly or was it a struggle?

Having not read the book, I have no idea if there are entertaining answeres to these questions, but I am at least curios about it.

[James D. Macdonald]

1. First Sight

My mother drove me to the airport with the windows rolled down. It was seventy-five degrees in Phoenix, the sky a perfect, cloudless blue. I was wearing my favorite shirt--sleeveless, white eyelet lace; I was wearing it as a farewell gesture. My carry-on item was a parka.

In the Olympic Peninsula of northwest Washington State, a small town named Forks exists under a near-constant cover of clouds. It rains on this inconsequential town more than on any other place in the United States of America. It was from this town and its gloomy, omnipresent shade that my mother escaped with me when I was only a few months old. It was in this town that I'd been compelled to spend a month every summer until I was fourteen. That

Hi ho and away we go!


1. First Sight

A book with chapters, and the chapters have titles. We're going to be introduced to something new, here. What's the first thing that comes to mind when you see the word-cluster "first sight"? Very likely "love at first sight." So, looks like we're in a romance.

My mother drove me to the airport with the windows rolled down.

First person. Past tense. We have two characters in the first two words: the narrator, and his/her mother. We have action going on: driving to the airport. Which suggests a place: we're in a car, on a road, going to said airport. We have some sensual detail, "with the windows rolled down." That's well-done. Twelve words.

It was seventy-five degrees in Phoenix, the sky a perfect, cloudless blue.

Answering the question, "where, exactly?" Expands on "the windows rolled down." Going to an airport suggests going on a trip, and a journey is a classic plot/metaphor for personal discovery. We're stressing light and perfection. Twelve more words.

I was wearing my favorite shirt--sleeveless, white eyelet lace; I was wearing it as a farewell gesture.

Okay, our narrator is female. That "farewell gesture" suggests that a door is closing. The classic place to start a novel is when a door closes behind the protagonist, leaving him/her in an unfamiliar and uncomfortable place with no way back to the past status quo. Eighteen words.

My carry-on item was a parka.

Right. This is very well done. The contrast is that the weather where the protagonist is going will be cold, and the item is carry-on because she'll need that parka right away. A parka, with its concealing hood, long sleeves, and hip-length, contrasts strongly with that white sleeveless openwork shirt. Six words. Half the length of the shortest sentence so far. Good impact. The word in the position of power is "parka."

End of paragraph one.

In the Olympic Peninsula of northwest Washington State, a small town named Forks exists under a near-constant cover of clouds.

Answering the question "where is she going?" "Forks," as in forks in a road, implies choices. Keeping on with the journey. Contrasts the clouds with the brightness of Phoenix. Contrasts the size of the town with the size of Phoenix (no need to state that Phoenix is a large city; we all know that). The word-order choices are non-conventional, to put stress on 'exists' and 'clouds.' Alliteration on constant cover clouds. Twenty words, changing pace from the first paragraph. Slowing down the reader. Semi-infodump, but a well-done info dump.

It rains on this inconsequential town more than on any other place in the United States of America.

Not just a small town, an inconsequential town. A big word for such a small town. And a trivia fact. Is it true? Dunno, but the reader will go along with it because the author says so, and the forward motion of the story (and it is moving forward, the car is going to the airport, and the narrator is dreading the end of the journey, producing tension) induces believe. No one counts the rivets on a moving train. Spelling out the full name of the country, rather than just saying "America." What's up with that? Trying to put off the arrival? Eighteen words.

It was from this town and its gloomy, omnipresent shade that my mother escaped with me when I was only a few months old.

Not just small, not just inconsequential, but filled with shade (and shade, we know, is another word for 'ghost'). That shade/those shades aren't just shady, they're gloomy. The shade isn't just gloomy, it's omnipresent. Wow. That's some industrial-strength shade there. Revealing the character's state of mind. More contrast with the bright sunny sky we saw in paragraph one. A place to be escaped from. A place that a mother would flee, taking a tiny baby with her. A place where you need a parka right away. Twenty-four words make this the longest sentence so far. Slowing down....

It was in this town that I'd been compelled to spend a month every summer until I was fourteen.

Ah, so it isn't just a place she's heard of. She know for herself how dreary it is. Only compulsion would put her there. A mother fleeing alone with a child and that child compelled to spend a month every year suggests a divorced dad with court-ordered custody. The protagonist is apparently young, but still undefined. Right now, her mother, her protector, is sending her back despite her obvious reluctance. Yet more tension. Nineteen words.

[INDENT]That[INDENT]

The paragraph continues on the next page.

Let's see what words are in positions of power:

rolled down
cloudless blue
farewell gesture
parka

clouds
United States of America
old
fourteen

Of them all, "parka" is the strongest.

Four sentences in the first paragraph, at least five in the second.

I think it was nicely done, and reads aloud very well.

[Perle_Rare]

Well, now that you put it this way, it sounds pretty good! Makes me wonder why I wasn't particularly pulled in.

I did think "compelled" was an odd choice of word. I read it as meaning "to be irresistibly drawn to" rather than "to be forced to". So I didn't get this feeling of possible divorce and custody.

ETA: I think I need to do a whole lot more of these first page exercises before I get any good at them or at writing my own openings.

[Delhomeboy]

I did think "compelled" was an odd choice of word. I read it as meaning "to be irresistibly drawn to" rather than "to be forced to". So I didn't get this feeling of possible divorce and custody.

I know, right? But that's what Mr. Webster and Mr. Oxford says.

[SarahMacManus]

I did, in fact, pick this up a few weeks ago and read the first two pages to see what all the hoopla was about. It certainly wasn't as bad as I had been lead to believe.

I might read it someday.

[Cyia]

Just goes to show that technically proper framework does not an interesting beginning make. You can have a beautiful 24k gold picture frame, but if you stick Timmy's pudding finger painting in it, don't expect people to believe it's Picasso.

[euclid]

1. I am not familiar with the word "parka", so I missed the implication completely.
2. I did not pick up that she was actually going to this town called "Forks". She didn't say so, should I have assume this?
3. I like small inconsequential gloomy, shady places where it rains a lot; Phoenix was way too hot for me and I hate cities anyway, so again, I didn't pick up on her reluctance to leave.
4. When her mother and she "escaped", I assumed they were escaping from somebody, not from that nice small, rainy, shady town.

[smsarber]

I can say this, your line-by has given me a new viewpoint on the possiblity of reading it, just to see. I have to admit I didn't feel an urge to read by the first page, and when I found out what book it was I automatically thought, "Oh, well it's that crap." Scary, I hope nobody hears of my work and stereotypically brushes it off like I did there. Now I want to read it just because I realize I didn't give it a fair chance just because of what book it is. :(

[Bukarella]

I think it was nicely done, and reads aloud very well.

I think this is very important for the flow of the story. Unlike the majority here, I read and enjoyed the series, and was drawn into it from the very beginning. There might be too much "murmuring" and mood swings as you read on, but it IS easy to read aloud, and even easier if you don't have to. That must be at least part of the reason why those that enjoyed the book finished 2,000 pages in less than a week.

I did not disect it the way you did, but I appreciate your analysis. It's very helpful to see why a paragraph worked. :)

[MumblingSage]

I've said before in this thread that prose can be a major turn-off for me, but funnily enough, this first page doesn't bother me.

What bothered me was when she called Edward's chest incandescant a few chapters in.

Oh, browsing the internets I spotted this bit of depression: http://goodexperience.com/2008/07/following-up-on-these.php. Can I have your thoughts, Uncle Jim?

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

What is considered a typical word count for first novel?

Somebody from my writing group asked that question. If you need specifics, it's around 60K words, around 300 pages, and a romantic mystery.

What would an agent see as appropriate for a first attempt?

[Kitty Pryde]

Uncle Jim,

What is considered a typical word count for first novel?

Somebody from my writing group asked that question. If you need specifics, it's around 60K words, around 300 pages, and a romantic mystery.

What would an agent see as appropriate for a first attempt?

Dude. Ten threads. (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=657722&postcount=10)

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh, browsing the internets I spotted this bit of depression: http://goodexperience.com/2008/07/following-up-on-these.php. Can I have your thoughts, Uncle Jim?


I'm not going to do a line-by-line. Attentive readers of this thread will already know what I think on most of those subjects.

I will comment that he seems to be talking about non-fiction, and the non-fiction world is a bit different from the fiction world. I will also comment that the phrase "commercial publishing" has two words.

[FOTSGreg]

I'd put this one back on the shelf even if I didn't already know what it was (I didn;t at first and clued in only by reading the rest of the posts, but my mind was made up already).

It's just not my kind of read. I can read "dry writing". I do it all the time with ancient history and military history ("With Arrow, Sword & Spear", "A Brief History of Medieval Warfare", "Greek & Roman Naval Warfare", "The Dictionary of Ancient Places", etc., etc.), but this kind of stuff just turns me off. I'd go pick up something by Raymond Chandler, Glen Cook, JA Konrath, some guy named James MacDonald, or half a dozen others instead.

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim,

What is considered a typical word count for first novel?

What genre? What do the guidelines say for the publishers in that genre? 80-100K most places.

Somebody from my writing group asked that question. If you need specifics, it's around 60K words, around 300 pages, and a romantic mystery.

How do you get 60K words to fill 300 pages?

Mysteries can be short, but 60K is sliding toward the novella area. In romance you can sometimes see books with two or three novellas in them, so it isn't impossible.

If they're the exactly right 60K words, then there you go, and look at publishers' guidelines.

What would an agent see as appropriate for a first attempt?

What do their guidelines say? Usually a query letter, a one-page synopsis, and the first three chapters.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks Kitty Pryde. :Hug2:

[Berry]

I'd put it back on the shelf because I happen to know the rainiest place in the USA is on Kauai, Hawaii. Looking it up, I see it gets 480 inches per year.

If they can't get easily checked facts like that right in the second paragraph, no thanks.

[smsarber]

Could be talking about the continental USA.

I had also wondered how you would get 60K to fill 300 pages. 18 point font, maybe?

When in doubt, always check the agent/publisher guidelines. Uncle Jim can only hold our hand so much;).

[General Tso]

Jim,
Could you recommend a few books to look at for examplary present-day dialogue?

I can listen to real life conversation, but as you point out, that differs from written dialogue. I am finding myself writing it as it might "naturallly" occur, but it is not pointed or interesting enough for me.

[James D. Macdonald]

Dunno about present day, but James M. Cain was a master of dialog.

[lexxi]

I had also wondered how you would get 60K to fill 300 pages. 18 point font, maybe?

In print?

Short chapters with a book design that starts the new chapter halfway down the page. If each chapter is 2-3 pages long and ends halfway down the last page of the chapter, you'll end up with double or 1.5 times the number of pages you'd have without chapter breaks.

[smsarber]

No. In manuscript. Average manuscript word count is 250 words a page, using courier or times new roman 12-point font.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi FOTSGreg,

I left a critt for you. I'll get to the others. (Cross my heart.)

[Calliopenjo]

It's the information that was posted. I didn't see the MS so I can't say if it's true or not. I'm assuming it is though.

[General Tso]

Dunno about present day, but James M. Cain was a master of dialog.
Yeah, I think that's close enough. I should read The Postman Always Rings Twice anyway. Thanks.

[Berry]

Could be talking about the continental USA.

Well, she should have said so.

All that aside, Meyer is clearly doing SOMETHING right, because millions of people buy her books. The thing is, that probably has nothing to do with the quality of the prose.

WIsh I could figure it out...

[Kitty Pryde]

Well, she should have said so.

All that aside, Meyer is clearly doing SOMETHING right, because millions of people buy her books. The thing is, that probably has nothing to do with the quality of the prose.

WIsh I could figure it out...


An ability to tell a story in an engaging way? We all have friends who can tell a story about how they did their laundry on thursday night in such a way that the listeners will be rolling on the ground laughing and gasping for breath.

And then on the other hand we all have friends who, even if they were taken hostage by militant renaissance fair reenactors and flown to the heart of the Schwarzwald in a hot air balloon full of pumas, only to be rescued by a team of US Navy Seals and the shenanigans of a friendly Swiss kabuki theater troupe, would tell a story as boring as page 75 of the phone book as read by Ben Stein.

[smsarber]

... as boring as page 75 of the phone book as read by Ben Stein.
:roll:

[Cyia]

Well, she should have said so.

All that aside, Meyer is clearly doing SOMETHING right, because millions of people buy her books. The thing is, that probably has nothing to do with the quality of the prose.

WIsh I could figure it out...

Easy. Hype and marketing.

You don't have to write well to tell a good story.

[smsarber]

Well, she should have said so.


Can't speak for everybody, but when I hear someone say "in the USA," I think the upper-48. Hawaii and Alaska just don't come to mind unless they specifically mention them. Besides, can you say you always word everything 100% correctly?

[Bukarella]

Easy. Hype and marketing.

You don't have to write well to tell a good story.

This book has often been complemented for being read very quickly even by non readers. I really think while it annoys some, it reads very smoothly. It's not just marketing. Meyer did do something right. ;)

[Delhomeboy]

Meyer did do something right. ;)

Careful. It's anathema to say that on here.

[Bukarella]

Careful. It's anathema to say that on here.

Sorry! I'm a newb! :e2paperba

[Judg]

Meyers taps into some very powerful archetypes. You can never attribute a bestseller wholly to marketing. They're always doing something right, and usually something very big. Much as it pains me to say it, the quality of the prose is not an overwhelming consideration for most readers. It is for me, and for many writers, but we are not the majority of the reading public. So instead of snarking about the success of Stephenie Meyer or Dan Brown (and trust me, I can snark about the latter at great length with very little provocation), it makes a lot more sense to look at what they're doing right. If we can harness that and add to it the things we can do right... :)

[smsarber]

Sorry! I'm a newb! :e2paperba
Don't worry--Delhomeboy's only been here one month longer than you;)

[Delhomeboy]

Don't worry--Delhomeboy's only been here one month longer than you;)

SHHHHHHH! Dag-nab-it, why'd you have to go off and say that for! :tongue

[Bukarella]

Psha... I'm not scared any more! :box:
By the way, we are getting off topic here... :Wha:

[smsarber]

Sorry... not good at keeping secrets!lol

So, what has everyone read recently, and what have you learned from the writer?

[Delhomeboy]

Sorry... not good at keeping secrets!lol

So, what has everyone read recently, and what have you learned from the writer?

I'm reading Blood Meridian right now, and learned that I pale in comparison.

[Perle_Rare]

I've been reading strictly non-fiction recently which is why I've made so much progress on my wip. Previously, all my writing hours were spent reading.

I've just finished "Storyteller" by Kate Wilhem. It's a fascinating look at her 27 years of experience teaching the Clarion workshop from its inception. Her insight on how short stories should and should not be written, interspersed with anecdotes from the workshops themselves, makes for captivating reading.

So what did I learn? That all serious work and no play results in a stressed writer! :D

[Calliopenjo]

I've been reading A World of Change by JM Dragon. What did I learn? That I was able to pick out the places that could be improved now that I learned a little.

I won't say I'm better because this particular writer has done something that I don't know if I will ever find the courage to do. Publish. We have different styles is all.

[MiltonPope]

On February 26, 2009, my wip (started in June 2008) contained only 20k words. I'm hoping to reach 100k (ie: finish first draft) by end of July 2009. Think I can do it?

I triple-dog dare ya!:Sun:

--Milton

[Chris Huff]

Well, she should have said so.

All that aside, Meyer is clearly doing SOMETHING right, because millions of people buy her books. The thing is, that probably has nothing to do with the quality of the prose.

Wish I could figure it out...

It's a coming of age story. Almost always hot.

It's MC is a girl. More young women read than young men.

It's got vampires. It's been a while since a good vampire book came out. Vampires are always great for a romance.

It's a fantasy. Fantasy is still hot on the tails of Potter, but it's not wizards and ogres.

It's a romance. Always hot.

[smsarber]

Most recently I finished a beta read of a friend's YA novel. In looking over her work it gave me a better idea how to write my second (& 3rd, & 4th, ...) draft(s) of my own work.

Before that I read Your Heart Belongs to Me by Dean Koontz. I love his dialogue. Most of his characters are clever, funny, and smart-assed; just like me, and, subsequently, my characters. I've learned alot about giving my characters depth from reading Koontz.

[Neversage]

And it's time to play First Page!



Okay, everyone! Do you turn the page, or do you put the book back on the shelf?

From that page I would shelf it. Even though I've lived most of my life in the Pacific Northwest, I didn't feel like anything was happening. I would probably do a page 147 test, but unless that yielded pretty good results, I'd pass.


To answer the other question: I've been reading Circle of Magic by Uncle Jim, and trying to make each chapter a lesson.

[maestrowork]

To me, technically that first page hits all the right stuff (character, setting, an event, some intrigue, some back stories, some forward movements, etc.) so it's at least craftsmanlike. The rest is just a matter of taste. I simply didn't find it all that interesting or appealing, and I found the writing pedestrian. I suppose it will depend on a few more "random page" tests and reading the backcover blurb to see if it's something I would enjoy.

BTW, I didn't know it was Meyer's book (obviously, I didn't read the series) and this is not a discussion on her or her books. But I think it's really interesting when we do the "first page" analysis, especially when we don't know who the author or what the book is.

[Blue Sky]

Thought I missed out, but still some talk about the First Page. I always seem to be playing in the woods and getting back too late.

And it's time to play First Page!

Okay, everyone! Do you turn the page, or do you put the book back on the shelf?

I would keep reading. What intrigued me was the large rift between the two paragraphs. At first read they could almost be from different books. It feels like anything could happen, a rather daring and bold way to create tension at the beginning.

The town of fork made me think of a fork in the river, with all the rain and shade. Lots of subtle clues and foreshadowing.

I would not have picked up a vampire novel to read, but given that knowledge and looking deeply, the two paragraphs are like a pair of fangs. This author knows what she is doing. The title rhymes with first bite. Nice opening--opening in order to bite. Ha!

[MumblingSage]

God, why all the bite puns? They're painful as, as...as fangs ripping into me!

:D No really, I'm okay. Stephanie Meyer's first chapter, at least, struck me as a very good example of its genre--teen fiction. Part of the reason I've never read Twilight is because I generally don't like teen fiction, but sometimes I look at that first chapter and feel the urge to...no. NO I WON'T I WON'T...

[Bryan M Stephenson]

If I am in the store, I don't buy it.
If it is in a library I don't check it out.
If it was given to me I read the whole thing, free literature!. And Subsequently the whole series then.

[euclid]

God, why all the bite puns? They're painful as, as...as fangs ripping into me!

:D No really, I'm okay. Stephanie Meyer's first chapter, at least, struck me as a very good example of its genre--teen fiction. Part of the reason I've never read Twilight is because I generally don't like teen fiction, but sometimes I look at that first chapter and feel the urge to...no. NO I WON'T I WON'T...

Oh go on, bite somebody!

[FOTSGreg]

What have I read most recently?

Cruel Zinc Melodies and Whispering Nickel Idols by Glen Cook
Killers In The Rain by Raymond Chandler
A Brief History of Medieval Warfare

What did they teach me - Cook and Chandler (along with JA Konrath and a couple others) taught me the language of a detective story and how to weave fantasy and scifi into it. The medieval warfare book is teaching me how war was fought from 1315-1414 in Europe.

[smsarber]

If I am in the store, I don't buy it.
If it is in a library I don't check it out.
If it was given to me I read the whole thing, free literature!. And Subsequently the whole series then.
I can understand that! Just got back from sinus surgery. Loads of stuff I may be able to use in a story. I was awake for it, b.s.-ing with the surgeon, while they cut, scissored, grinded and chiseled away inside my nasal cavity. FUN!

[Dirtpoor]

Yay me. I have finally caught up with this thread.

Just wanted to echo so many others in thanking you, Uncle Jim, for you time, patience and good humor in sharing your insights and knowledge. Hope you don't mind that I have been citing your thread as a perfectly good excuse for neglecting house and spouse.

My current WIP is at nearly 15000 words and moving slowly. I sometimes get only a couple of paragraphs completed in my two hours. I can't stop revising as I go - and that takes longer the more I write.

Your revelation on building a detailed outline has been tremendously helpful. I now know where my book is going and roughly what happens along the way.

Obligatory newbie question: Did I read it correctly - that you think opening a book with dialogue can be confusing for the reader? I have since changed my opening, but wanted to clarify.

Thanks again.

Sue

[linton]

Before that I read Your Heart Belongs to Me by Dean Koontz. I love his dialogue. Most of his characters are clever, funny, and smart-assed; just like me, and, subsequently, my characters. I've learned alot about giving my characters depth from reading Koontz.

I just had to put aside Koontz"s The Darkest Evening without finishing it. The plot and characters are blah. Well there's one golden retriever that showed interest. I know Koontz is immensly popular and I have enjoyed him. I guess if you write so prolifically. You have to fire a few blanks.

His dialogue, at least in this is very poor. I'm big on not tagging dialogue but in this I found myself stopping and trying to figure out who said it. Sometimes I couyldn't tell. And this was often throughout. Very irritating.

[smsarber]

You cannot be serious!?!? The Darkest Evening of the Year is one of the best books I have ever read. But... everybody has their own opinions, and if it wasn't for you, well, then it wasn't for you. Maybe you didn't get in far enough. One thing Koontz does is spend a lot of time at the beginning building everything up. Mainly because he has so many main characters. But I assure you that Your Heart Belongs to Me will not disappoint;).

On another note: My father-in-law recently gave us the first seven seasons of The X Files on DVD. I've said many, many times here that sci/fi is not a main interest of mine, for reading as well as television. But I have been watching 2-5 episodes a night, and am well into season 3 now. I find some of it cheesy, but I am enjoying them. Makes me want to write a conspiracy theory story. But I will have to research the eternally paranoid a little more first.

PS; Life Expectancy &The Husband are two books that have vibrant characters you can truly care about. IMO

[smsarber]

Yay me. I have finally caught up with this thread.

Congrats, and Welcome!
Obligatory newbie question: Did I read it correctly - that you think opening a book with dialogue can be confusing for the reader? I have since changed my opening, but wanted to clarify.

Thanks again.

Sue
I think it depends on the situation. It might work with your setting, layout, characters. In other words, there's no hard and fast rule that says you can't open with dialogue- but make sure it is what the book needs if you do.

[James D. Macdonald]

A Clockwork Orange opens with dialog.

Try it. If it works ... go with it. If not, try something else.

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim, I'd promised to read one of your books for your birthday present, but I haven't been able to get my hands on one. I can't order online--no credit card. I keep hoping one of the area used bookstores will have one, but no luck yet. Just wanted to let you know I haven't forgotten my promise;).

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Neversage,

I left a crit for you. Have a good weekend.

[Perle_Rare]

Uncle Jim,

I've been rethinking of that line by line edit you did on the first page of Twilight. Your analysis of the text was spot-on with the MC and her situation.

This led me to wonder: When you present a first page analysis, do you only go by what you see on the first page or do the contents of the novel, assuming you've read it, influence how you see the first page?

Basically, would your analysis of the same page be the same before and after you've read the book?

[Blue Sky]

God, why all the bite puns? They're painful as, as...as fangs ripping into me!

:D No really, I'm okay. Stephanie Meyer's first chapter, at least, struck me as a very good example of its genre--teen fiction. Part of the reason I've never read Twilight is because I generally don't like teen fiction, but sometimes I look at that first chapter and feel the urge to...no. NO I WON'T I WON'T...

And the lower fangs are hidden--

AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!

[Blue Sky]

Perle_Rare: I agree with your comments of Jim's line-by-line.

Thanks again Jim.

Maybe we're just not letting ourselves have fun?

Years ago, I could not get into War and Peace. I had issues with the aristocracy--elite classes of society--which made reading about them feel like eating mud.

After mentioning War and Peace in a post I thought, Why not give it another try?

Imagine my surprise when I started laughing during the first two pages. This is one of the best novels I've read. That's its reputation, but years ago, I couldn't get past my judgments. Having lived and learned a lot more about life, my issues relating to the subject matter of War and Peace are gone.

Tolstoy was a brilliant observer of human nature and shows our foibles from the drawing room to raging battefields. We are so ridiculous at times and it's often hilarious. How could I have missed that years ago? I was seeing my issues in the book, rather than the book itself.

I offer this as a fellow human being aspiring to write pro-quality work.

[James D. Macdonald]

Basically, would your analysis of the same page be the same before and after you've read the book?


As it happens, I've never read the book. (I got the text by using the Look Inside feature at Amazon.)

...but I haven't been able to get my hands on one. I can't order online--no credit card.

Interlibrary loan.

[smsarber]

I will ask them if they can get it. Neither of the branches I go to in Jefferson County have any, but St. Louis County might. I will not rest til I get ahold of one of your books... okay, I'll rest, but it will be a fitful rest, and I'll feel guilty for it! ;)

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim, :Shrug:

What's the difference between a short story outline and a novel outline? Other than the obvious. Would one be more detailed than the other?

[James D. Macdonald]

One difference is that I wouldn't outline a short story....

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks Uncle Jim. :Hug2:

[James D. Macdonald]

Seriously, a short story has one single point. A novel has many. A short story is a single joke. A novel is a comedy routine.

[smsarber]

When I jot down ideas for short stories sometimes it's only a line or two, sometimes a paragraph, of what I believe the point of the story to be. I guess you could call that an outline. Maybe a mini-outline? Of course, it usually doesn't matter, because the finished (even first draft) product is usually much different than my first thoughts of it were.

[Ken Schneider]

Uncle Jim, I'd promised to read one of your books for your birthday present, but I haven't been able to get my hands on one. I can't order online--no credit card. I keep hoping one of the area used bookstores will have one, but no luck yet. Just wanted to let you know I haven't forgotten my promise;).

The bookstore will order it in for you. I read Land of Mist and Snow not long ago. Good read. Order it.

[Ken Schneider]

Uncle Jim, :Shrug:

What's the difference between a short story outline and a novel outline? Other than the obvious. Would one be more detailed than the other?

I don't outline SS either.

It gives you freedom to eat up your plotline without guilt.

Short story writing is a wonderful way to learn and practice progression through a plot. As UJ has said many times, every story has a beginning, a middle and an end.

Short stories also help you move, move, move along with the story, without all the backstory blah, blah.

[smsarber]

The bookstore will order it in for you. I read Land of Mist and Snow not long ago. Good read. Order it.
Well now I feel like a dunce! I should have thought of that!!

[James D. Macdonald]

In a short story you don't have the room to put in anything that isn't purely part of the story.

A novel is doing aerobatics at 10,000 feet. You have room to recover.

A short story is doing aerobatics at 500 feet. You don't have much of a margin of error.

[SarahMacManus]

In a short story you don't have the room to put in anything that isn't purely part of the story.

A novel is doing aerobatics at 10,000 feet. You have room to recover.

A short story is doing aerobatics at 500 feet. You don't have much of a margin of error.

I've always found it easier to write short stories than novels. I've been writing shorts for over 30 years, but writing my first novel was excrutiating, and I still only hit 65,000 words. I had to beat myself until it was 75,000.

[General Tso]

What do you do when your writing is interrupted by the undeniable lure of another story?

I don't mean to say that I have lost the drive to write what I'm working on, nor have I lost faith in it. In fact I like where it's going and I'm actually making decent progress for once. I have created deep [hopefully] characters, laid out plot arcs for all of them, woven a detailed outline, and have started powering through the first 10K words.

But I have this urge. I'm sure you get ideas for other stories all the time. But I have this particular idea that is drawing me in. I feel passion for it at the moment. It is clear in my head.

What do you do when this happens to you? Simply jot down notes and get back to your normal WIP? Halt the WIP completely to write what you're currently drawn to? Or something in between?

[Judg]

You can get seduced by a new story ad infinitum. Better to jot down those notes and finish the one you're working on.

[Bukarella]

What do you do when your writing is interrupted by the undeniable lure of another story?


I promised myself I won't start another story until I'm done with the two that I'm working on right now. Ideas keep popping up in my head, and it's extremely tempting. However, I don't think it's helpful to keep jumping from one idea to another until one masters the discipline to actually complete a project. I do give myself permission to write down the ideas that crawl into my head, but nothing more than that. :D

[Manix]

Uncle Jim, 'O Grand Knowing One, thank you for all this wisdom! I have a question:

My WIP opens with a scene that seems somewhat frivolous at the outset (dialogue between the MC and another character, who doesn't reappear until 2/3s of the way into the book) The dialogue is a light read, humorous, and gives a feel for the MC's personality. My question is: how long do I have to "get to the point" of the hook, where an agent (or potential reader) would say, "Ah-ha! now we're getting to the action!"?

This opening scene is about one page long, and funny, as I said, so beta readers have said it grabs their attention, but two of them have wondered if it's too frivolous to wait another page in before getting to the "action scene"

What are your thoughts?

[James D. Macdonald]

What do you do when this happens to you? Simply jot down notes and get back to your normal WIP? Halt the WIP completely to write what you're currently drawn to? Or something in between?

So you stop writing your current WIP, and start on the new, glorious idea that seems to write itself. And half-way through that novel, you have a great idea that begs to be written, so you stop your work in progress and start writing that new novel. And half-way through writing it, you have an astounding idea ...

...and thirty years from now you have sixty half-novels in your attic.


If something begs to be written, write it. But you don't get to stop doing two hours a day on your current WIP, all the way through to The End.

her page in before getting to the "action scene"

What are your thoughts?



What does the scene accomplish?

What's the tone of your novel?

Does Character B (the one who doesn't reappear until 2/3 of the way through the book) need to be in the story at all?

[smsarber]

So you stop writing your current WIP, and start on the new, glorious idea that seems to write itself. And half-way through that novel, you have a great idea that begs to be written, so you stop your work in progress and start writing that new novel. And half-way through writing it, you have an astounding idea ...

...and thirty years from now you have sixty half-novels in your attic.


If something begs to be written, write it. But you don't get to stop doing two hours a day on your current WIP, all the way through to The End.
Great advice!!!!!!

[Manix]

What does the scene accomplish?
Gee...it introduces the MC and his best friend (who disappears until later) and sets up their relationship and the way they relate to one another (humorously, etc.)
What's the tone of your novel?
It's YA fantasy, a light read at the beginning to draw the reader in
Does Character B (the one who doesn't reappear until 2/3 of the way through the book) need to be in the story at all?
I could take this Character B out completely, but he adds so much humor to the MC's life and complexity to the plot later on that I didn't want to nix him. I will if it's advised though. What do you think?

[James D. Macdonald]

What do you think?


You've read your book. Your betas have read your book. I haven't.

If the character vanishes for 2/3 of the novel he doesn't seem all that essential. Could this character be combined with some other character to simplify things?

[Manix]

You've read your book. Your betas have read your book. I haven't.

If the character vanishes for 2/3 of the novel he doesn't seem all that essential. Could this character be combined with some other character to simplify things?

Well, possibly, with a bit of re-working. He's not essential, just a fun character to work with. I'll have to think of how I could combine him with someone else (wow, I feel like I'm God...) and see what happens. Thanks.

[James D. Macdonald]

He's not essential....

That means that he may not belong in this book. Fun is always good. Please consider making him essential.

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim,

Just because I'm curious...

How many words of fiction do you estimate you've published?

When did you begin creative writing? In high school? College?

Did you ever work as a potato farmer? Or undercover as a janitor on an inter-galactic warship?

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim,

Just because I'm curious...

How many words of fiction do you estimate you've published?

Somewhere above two million.

When did you begin creative writing? In high school? College?

In elementary school. I wrote a Hardy Boys novel when I was ten.

Did you ever work as a potato farmer? Or undercover as a janitor on an inter-galactic warship?

No, and no.

[allenparker]

That means that he may not belong in this book. Fun is always good. Please consider making him essential.

This was my thought, although Jim beat me to it. The character probably already has a life going on in the first 2/3 of the book, but he doesn't get to tell his story. Perhaps a few details of what is happening might build the character to the point where the funny guy has more depth and you find him to be vital to the story's plot.

[Manix]

This was my thought, although Jim beat me to it. The character probably already has a life going on in the first 2/3 of the book, but he doesn't get to tell his story. Perhaps a few details of what is happening might build the character to the point where the funny guy has more depth and you find him to be vital to the story's plot.
Thanks Jim! Thanks allen! This makes so much sense right now. Now that you mention it, he really is important to many points of the plot at the end. I just never identified him that way in my head. Wow. Paradigm shift in my head...Thanks:)

[smsarber]

My guess had been in the millions. I never had the patience for any kind of creative writing when I was ten, wow!

[linton]

I've always found it easier to write short stories than novels. I've been writing shorts for over 30 years, but writing my first novel was excrutiating, and I still only hit 65,000 words. I had to beat myself until it was 75,000.


To me that's the hardest part. When you feel you've actually finished writing the novel and wou're all drained, and you need another ten or twenty thousand words. It's total torture. I know, just use "What if?" but it doesn't work for me.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Steven,

I left a crit for you. And I believe that includes everyone. Let me know if I missed ya.:)

[James D. Macdonald]

When you feel you've actually finished writing the novel and wou're all drained, and you need another ten or twenty thousand words.

Or, if every word is the right word and you've told your story ... find a market that accepts that length in that genre.

Electronic media, in particular, are open to shorter lengths.

[raburrell]

Hi Uncle Jim,
As a newbie, I'm slowly working my way through this thread (perhaps 15 pages so far), and I'm already feeling reinvigorated & looking forward to improving my skills. So I just wanted to say thank you.

[FOTSGreg]

Erm... Uncle Jim's thread does not drop off the first page.

BUMP!

[smsarber]

In elementary school. I wrote a Hardy Boys novel when I was ten.

What ever became of that? And was it any good?

I'm asking these questions because you've been a great mentor to so many of us, and I'd really like to know more about you.

[Blue Sky]

Hey, there's been a new genre created right here on AW--Ruritanian Zombie Romance.

The thread title is: Using Foreign Languages in a Fantasy World
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139876

There's a surprise screenplay excerpt on page two!

[James D. Macdonald]

What ever became of that? And was it any good?



I found it again a couple of years ago, when cleaning out the house after my mother's death. She'd kept a copy, you understand.

It had its moments.

I showed it to one of my editors, who remarked, "Even if it didn't have a name on it I'd know who wrote it."

That's because "style" is what you can't help doing. (Though it is a bit disheartening to learn that I haven't changed since I was ten....)

[smsarber]

But you could say you've held yourself to the same standards and integrity as when you were ten years old.

[Neversage]

Oh, this is good. I've been reading the Circle of Magic series, and getting a sense of this "style" thing Uncle Jim speaks of. Hearing more about him and how he came to be is interesting and educational.

By the way, congratulations on forty-three months, Sarber : ) Here's all the encouragement I have in a neat little box. [Encouragement Box]

[smsarber]

:thankyou:Thank you!

[SarahMacManus]

To me that's the hardest part. When you feel you've actually finished writing the novel and wou're all drained, and you need another ten or twenty thousand words. It's total torture. I know, just use "What if?" but it doesn't work for me.

I feel your pain. It really HURT. My beta was saying "I want more!"

There was no MORE - it was a tiny perfect jewel - it said everything it needed to say. It was a small, intimate story, but nonetheless a complete novel. *sigh* I was happy with it, anyway. And yes, I'm going to start rewriting it soon. It needs restructuring.

After, will do as Jim suggests and looking for smaller-size publishers.

[BlueLucario]

Okay. Does anyone here actually write in the novels you read?

There's this book I read, and a book I'm currently reading now, and I feel like it needs a nice good critique.

[CaroGirl]

Okay. Does anyone here actually write in the novels you read?

There's this book I read, and a book I'm currently reading now, and I feel like it needs a nice good critique.
What do you mean? Like, write in the margins of the book I'm reading? No, not since university.

Or do you mean write ABOUT the novels I read, like reviews? I keep a list of the books I read and I write a short review of my impression of the book, for future reference. But I don't submit reviews for publication. I know a few people here who are published professional book reviewers.

Or do you mean edit the novels as I read them? I try not to read novels that still need to be edited. That just annoys me. If I need to edit them while I'm reading, it's too late. I'll stop reading a poorly edited published book if it's bad enough.

[BlueLucario]

What do you mean? Like, write in the margins of the book I'm reading? No, not since university.

Or do you mean write ABOUT the novels I read, like reviews? I keep a list of the books I read and I write a short review of my impression of the book, for future reference. But I don't submit reviews for publication. I know a few people here who are published professional book reviewers.

Or do you mean edit the novels as I read them? I try not to read novels that still need to be edited. That just annoys me. If I need to edit them while I'm reading, it's too late. I'll stop reading a poorly edited published book if it's bad enough.

I mean like nitpick every little thing wrong with the book, directly in the book. Or nitpick on what you liked about it.

I felt like this would be a good method of taking notes. Like writing in a textbook

[James D. Macdonald]

No, I haven't done that. But I've suggested that people take cheap paperbacks, highliters, and mark things like dialog tags, passive constructions, appearances of minor characters, and other things to make more obvious the way the blocks fit together.

[Blue Sky]

Hey Blue,

Maybe see if you like doing that and let us know? My memory tends to be very visual. Such a technique might help me remember both the story and my first impressions.

I recall seeing used books marked up like that, but at the time I had huge issues with writing in books. HUGE.

Maybe I'll try it when I get Jack Vance's "Tchai: Planet of Adventure" compilation? I'm already almost six hundred pages into War and Peace, so I'll probably wait.

Thanks,

Phil

[Perle_Rare]

I recall seeing used books marked up like that, but at the time I had huge issues with writing in books. HUGE.


When I see a marked up book in a used book store, I always assume it was used for a class of some sort. I stay away from those because I get trapped analyzing the reason why someone would have thought to mark up that particular spot and that pulls me right out of the story.

My father once remarked to me that a co-worker of his had a habit of highlighting important sentences in technical reference manuals. My father had no issue with that but he was amazed at how much stuff the guy highlighted in each of his manuals. After a while, my father realized that the guy was highlighting anything that he couldn't understand in case it might be important.

No, I never marked up my books... :D

[MiltonPope]

When a writer handed Studs Terkel one of Terkel's books to sign, Terkel asked if he'd read it. "But...you didn't mark in it!" Apparently Terkel carried on a lively dialogue with the author in the margins of most of the books he read.

[Judg]

Even in university I didn't usually mark up my books, and if I did, it was only in pencil. I inserted tons of tiny bookmarks made of shreds of newspaper, with a quick pencil check on the page to show what had interested me.

I'm still rather horrified at the idea of marking up a book. I do it sometimes, but I have to force myself.

[smsarber]

If I find an interesting passage, or something I have a problem with, I sometimes note the line, paragraph, and page number on a post-it note, then stick the note to the appropriate page. No need to write in the book then.

[euclid]

It's okay to mark library books - apparently.

[euclid]

I've always thought that (popular) songs consist of two main elements: The melody and the lyrics. The really great songs have great melodies and great lyrics. Some songs have great lyrics, but dull melodies; others have great melodies but poor lyrics. Of course instrumental musical pieces have no lyrics, and rap music has no melody.

We all fit along a continuum, from those who think the lyric is everything through to those who never listen to the lyrics, but love a good tune. I'm close to the latter end of that spectrum; my wife is firmly at the other end (with the rappers).

I now think that maybe books have two main elements: Plot and Voice. Again, the really good books have strong plot and voice, and people gravitate either towards books that are plot-driven or to those that have a strong voice.

Anybody agree? Disagree?

[Perle_Rare]

:flag: I'm afraid I have to take a break from this thread...

Last night, I dreamed that Uncle Jim visited my house to teach me how to write character descriptions. In particular, I distinctly remember a lecture on how much or little to include when describing a character's clothing.

I kid you not.

:Shrug:

[linton]

I recall seeing used books marked up like that, but at the time I had huge issues with writing in books. HUGE.

Thanks,

Phil

I'm with you on that. I've done it and it has always bothered me. I just think they are sacrosanct. Whenever I see a page marked with a turn down in a library book, I always straighten it out and wonder what kind of asshole did this. I've never been able to throw a book away. No matter how bad it is I'll find someone or someplace to leave it.

[Neversage]

I've always thought that (popular) songs consist of two main elements: The melody and the lyrics. The really great songs have great melodies and great lyrics. Some songs have great lyrics, but dull melodies; others have great melodies but poor lyrics. Of course instrumental musical pieces have no lyrics, and rap music has no melody.

We all fit along a continuum, from those who think the lyric is everything through to those who never listen to the lyrics, but love a good tune. I'm close to the latter end of that spectrum; my wife is firmly at the other end (with the rappers).

I now think that maybe books have two main elements: Plot and Voice. Again, the really good books have strong plot and voice, and people gravitate either towards books that are plot-driven or to those that have a strong voice.

Anybody agree? Disagree?
I would define it a little differently. You have the lyrics, which send a message, but the music with them gives the emotional content. This is general, and it's not that black and white, but I think my point is clear.

With writing, we have the plot, or the events of the story; and we have the voice, or the way those events are communicated.

In short: the plot events are the notes, the voice is the expression of those notes. I think this is a very useful way of looking at it. Each paragraph is a note in the melody of the story. Sometimes it's great to use vibrato, sometimes you play it louder; whatever works best.

[FOTSGreg]

Perle Rare wrote, I'm afraid I have to take a break from this thread...

Last night, I dreamed that Uncle Jim visited my house to teach me how to write character descriptions. In particular, I distinctly remember a lecture on how much or little to include when describing a character's clothing.

I kid you not.

Now, how do you know for sure it wasn't Uncle Jim in the flesh instead of a dream?

I hear he has "powers"...

I'm just sayin'...

[smsarber]

That explains the beard hairs I keep finding in the sink!!

[Ken Schneider]

Okay. Does anyone here actually write in the novels you read?

There's this book I read, and a book I'm currently reading now, and I feel like it needs a nice good critique.

I once read a book and hated how it ended, so I wrote another two pages and pasted them in the back. That was in 1979 or 80. I still have the book with the type-written pages pasted in it.


Last night, I dreamed that Uncle Jim visited my house to teach me how to write character descriptions. In particular, I distinctly remember a lecture on how much or little to include when describing a character's clothing.

When I first began reading LWWUJ thread way back when, I had couple dreams that Jim would call me and grill me and asked me how many pages I read that day, or rip me for not reading enough. LOL. This dreamspun telepathy kept me motivated and reading to the end.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's okay to mark library books - apparently.

People who mark library books go to a special Hell.

[Blue Sky]

linton: I've managed to toss some abysmal books, but I thought about it for awhile. My "stacks" as my aunts call them take up a spare bedroom.

The main reason I don't mark in books is that if I end up liking one, I'll prefer a clean second read without notations. Perhaps I'll have to buy two copies of a few good one's I'd like to look at very closely.

[smsarber]

People who mark library books go to a special Hell.__________________


Where they spend eternity listening to Phyllis Diller reading Danielle Steele books 24/7, 365!

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

When writing novel outlines, do they look like the outlines you learned how to make when you were a kid? Or do they look different? I tried researching it but I'm getting different answers.

[smsarber]

1

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim,

When writing novel outlines, do they look like the outlines you learned how to make when you were a kid? Or do they look different? I tried researching it but I'm getting different answers.


That's because there are as many different answers as there are writers.

No, your outlines don't have to have all those Roman numerals and capital letters and small letters and such. But I'm sure that somewhere there's a writer who does it.

Usually my outlines are about 3/4 of the length of the finished book. But your outline doesn't have to look like that, either.

Some folks outline on file cards. But you don't have to.

Find something that works for you; some way to arrange your story so you know that you have a whole story. Something that you can work with.

If it works, it's right.

[Medievalist]

Find something that works for you; some way to arrange your story so you know that you have a whole story. Something that you can work with.

If it works, it's right.

The Macdonald has just given you, for free, two of the Great Mysteries of writing.

[Judg]

Calliopenjo, a lot of your questions seem to boil down to the writerly equivalent of "what's the right way to make chili?" And the answer is always, "any way that gives a tasty result". A chili just has to be a spicy gloop to be a chili, and a tasty spicy gloop to be a success. Any way that gets you there is good.

A novel has to have a protagonist and conflict. A good novel is one that people actually want to read. Most successful novels follow certain patterns, because they are patterns that most people find satisfying most of the time. The "rules" help you avoid common pitfalls, but they aren't sacrosanct. As has been observed repeatedly, many successful novels break a rule or two. There is no magistrate waiting to slap a fine on you if you don't follow them. So relax a bit. You won't ruin your chili if you add an extra clove of garlic, truly. You'll just have a more garlicky chili. You can saute the vegetables first and then add the meat, or do it the other way around. The taste will be a bit different, but both methods will give you chili. Just don't forget the chilies.

Go ahead and follow the recipes of a master chef; it's a great way to learn. But don't think that it's the only way to go. There is no one recipe, just a couple of common elements and a gazillion variations on the theme.

[smsarber]

My signature, and part of my last post disappeared. Weird.

[smsarber]

I believe it varies. Personal preference, and all that. The first draft of A Birthday Suicide is essentially a 56,000 word outline of the novel. It gives me the characters, setting, and basic plotline for what I want the book to be... now I have to flesh it out. I don't even remember exactly how to do an outline like we did in school. That's called a Formal Outline, with categories and subcategories, and the use of symbols I, II, III, A, B, C, etc... From what I have learned, most writers don't outline this way, but if you feel it would be useful, by all means, do it.
Here are some examples of other outline forms:

Simple List: A list of topics you're thinking of covering, key points you plan to make. or scenes, sections, or stanzas you plan to write. You can number it; 1,2,3,4,5, etc... and add notes and descriptions to each item if you like.

Narrative Synopsis: your plot--in essence, a highly-condensed version of your piece, written in prose (basically what I described for my novel).

Narrative Description: what your piece will do, or be. Less detailed than narrative synopsis.

Flow Chart: showing the movement of events, characters, ideas, points, topics, images and/or relationships, from the beginning of your piece to the end.

Netline or Mindmap: an ingenious form of outlining that focuses on relationships rather than on plot or sequence. A netline presents information visually rather than in a linear fashion. It often resembles a spider web, or a net--hence it's name.

Sample of Netline (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=422238131&albumID=914077&imageID=12874521)

[smsarber]

Well, I can't see my whole post, even though I reposted it. It just stops halfway down. Can you guys read the whole thing? It should end with "netline/mindmap" description.

here's a link to a netline example:

netline (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=422238131&albumID=914077&imageID=12874521)

[smsarber]

Okay, I changed to Firefox and now my post is fine. I had just downloaded Internet Explorer 8. Strange, because I had never had a problem with IE before.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks guys. You helped me to solve the great mystery. Yay! Have a good one.

I promise to go back to the corner and hide over the weekend. (Cross my heart.)

[Ken Schneider]

UJ, what would you do if you were half the way through a writing, say 50,000 words, and all of the sudden you realize and see that your writing skills had finally started to come together, showing not telling, dialog, and the story started to jump to life. You noticed your writing started to resemble and read like a novel off the shelf?

As close as I can figure, in 5 years I've written close to 800,000 words in 9 works of fiction.

A. Start over?

B. Continue and re-write the first 50,000

C. Something else.

Thanks, Ken

[smsarber]

That's what happened to me with A Birthday Suicide. When I started it I was still really green, toward the end my chops had improved greatly. I finished the first draft, knowing when I do the rewrite I can fix the beginning, and still improve the latter chapters. It's my opinion that as writers we are always improving, each piece, paragraph, sentence can and should be better than what you were capable of previously.

[Blue Sky]

Ken, that just happened to me. I'm doing a final picky edit through my non-fic book and discovered that my writing has clarified dramatically. It feels like a combination of being fine with who I am and trusting the reader to fill in the blanks.

Although the book hasn't changed structurally, the prose changes feel like a major revision. Amazing. Glad I didn't try to force it.

Congrats! Nice feeling, eh?

I might post something in a minute or so that is not meant to interrupt your thought, but to refer back to library book scribbler hell. I tried to post it yesterday and encountered computer and website chaos.

[Blue Sky]

Today's movie is Mark Out.

Countess Natasha learns of a plot by Genovian flesh-eating zombies to defile all books written in Hungarian by Italian vampires. The zombies know that if the books are destroyed, they will perish. Natasha must save the books, which hold the key to destroying the zombie-creating T-virus, and find the cure before US nukes are launched at her beloved Moscovia. Natasha uses taxis and automatic weapons to hide her royal status and secret training by a German-speaking Mongolian sect living in the forests of Siberia. She has twenty-four hours until launch.

[SFX]

[Bookmobile door opens and zombie charges in at Natasha.]

[Automatic weapon fire]

ZOMBIE

Arrrrgh!

[First marker-wielding zombie falls undead across desk. Second zombie leaps toward stacks, grabs book and starts marking in it.]

[Natasha reloads as she turns toward last zombie.]

NATASHA

Sukin syn!

[Three rapidly fired shots.]

[Last zombie's head explodes due to Natasha's carefully aimed shots, saving the book. Zombie falls sideways to floor.]

NATASHA

Book scribbler hell for you.

[Boris leans in bookmobile door.]

BORIS (in Swahili)

More are coming! We can't stop them.

[Boris turns back outside.]

[Automatic weapon fire.]

[Natasha grabs three books and steps out as dozens of zombies rush the bookmobile.]

NATASHA

Chert' voz'mi. It was fun while it lasted.

BORIS (in Swahili)

Don't give up, damn it!

NATASHA

Chipilon. Do I ever give up?

[Natasha lets AKM hang from her shoulder and raises arms. Taxi driver sees and stops at curb.]

NATASHA

Leck mir am *rse. Leck mir am *rse. Leck mir am *rse.

[Zombies fall inert to the ground.]

[Boris follows Natasha to waiting taxi.]

BORIS

What was that?

[Natasha opens taxi door, turns, face sidelit by setting sun.]

NATASHA

The Pax Mongolica. Let's go.

[Taxi drives away and turns down narrow street.]

[Traditional West African Mande' music plays in background.]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks Jim. I had to honor the new genre by giving it a shot.

[Phil looks at clock.]

Phil

Sacre merde! Time for a nap before work.

[Ken Schneider]

Seems like you plug away and plug away and call youself a hack and plug away and then you see some real improvements that give you hope. And, you plug away some more, but need to find a better word to call yourself than hack. If a hack is a private, I'vew promoted myself to private first class. I hope I don't have to be a General to get published.

[Blue Sky]

Hello again Ken. Just returned from working all night.

Reader response showed my writing fine before, but it's improved enough that I often stop, smile and shake my head in amazement. I didn't see or allow myself to cut the fat I'm trimming now. It adds up. What's your experience of it?

I don't know Ken. Let's say Jim and Doyle--successful mid-list authors--are field grade officers. They rate that in my book. (Stephen King being a general or admiral.) With the work and perseverence writing often demands, maybe we're in the nco ranks?

Okay, time to sleep. Maybe I'll see UJ and others reply to you when I wake up.

Btw Jim: I see that my screen adaptation from the movie Mark Up does not belong in the novel writing thread. I'm fine with zapping it if necessary. Got excited with the impromptu writing exercise and lesson "over there." It happened in situ, which I enjoyed a lot.

[General Tso]

Something I tend to struggle with is sentence rhythm. I don't think I vary them enough, but find it difficult to reconstruct them without ruining the emphasis/meaning. I think part of this may be due to overthinking active voice.

A few theories on active/passive voice, not necessarily in contradiction with each other:
George Orwell's rules of writing:
. . .
(iv) Never use the passive where you can use the active.
The active and passive voices are both tools in your toolbox.

You may use one tool more often than another, but when the time comes when you need that second tool, by all means use it.
and possibly a derivitive of the above:
Choose between an active or passive voice based on what you want the subject of the sentence to be.
In other words, you can change from passive voice to active voice by making your character the subject of every sentence, thus placing emphasis on that character. This also often has the result of that character being located at the beginning of every sentence.

I am finding that this is causing me to write far too many sentences that look like this:

MC did this.
MC did that.
etc.

Any suggestions? Am I just being anal?

[Judg]

The passive/active switch is not the only way to vary sentence length and construction. You can start with prepositional phrases, for example.

In the deepening shadows at the base of the great trees, the panther waits, even his normally lashing tail immobile.

You can start with a participial phrase:

Tired and beaten down by labour and derision, my father returned every night, shoulders slumped in weary resignation.

You can combine sentences with subordinating conjunctions:

Because Gerry hated eating ice cream in winter, he really didn't appreciate Dairy Queen gift cards as Christmas presents.

You see? There are many ways to shake it up. Varying the length also matters. When sentences are too similar in structure and length for too long, I find it has an anesthetizing effect, creating a numbness and emotional distance. Of course, sometimes you can do that deliberately to great effect, such as when your character is in shock at what he's seeing, but it should be used sparingly.

[Perle_Rare]

Uncle Jim,

I just finished reading "Land of Mist and Snow". Though I admit it's not my regular cup of tea, I found myself unable to put it down.

I was wondering if you could tell me how many words that book contains? This would help me figure out how accurate my estimates are.

Also, I was wondering how well you planned the words on that first page. I bought the paperback version and the very last line at the bottom of the first page is "Meanwhile, I sat filing papers in an obscure office." Though when you turn the page you realize this is the first line of a longer paragraph, it stands quite nicely on its own and packs a punch as it lies there at the bottom of that page. Furthermore, that sentence is exactly long enough to fit the width of the page.

Is this coincidence or craft?

If this is craft, then how did you know exactly what would appear on the first page?

[James D. Macdonald]

First: Land of Mist and Snow is about 65,000 words. It's a relatively short novel.

Next, the layout was as much a surprise to me as to anyone. I had nothing to do with which line ended the first page. The book's designer is the person who did that, not me. My part was to try to make sure that every sentence led compellingly to the next one.

I often fall short, but that's my goal.

[smsarber]

Perle, I triple-dog dare you AND will beta read your first draft if you need someone to do that. (I don't know if that's incentive or not...;))

[Dawnstorm]

In other words, you can change from passive voice to active voice by making your character the subject of every sentence, thus placing emphasis on that character.

No. Your character could easily be the subject of a sentence with a verb in the passive voice.

"Choose between an active or passive voice based on what you want the subject of the sentence to be," is good advice, but it's incomplete.

The passive voice is an aspect of the verb in the sentence; it is not an aspect of the meaning you're trying to express with that verb. Compare:

verb = give.

"Give" expresses a social transaction that involves the movement (literal or figurative) of an object from one person to another.

George gives a present to Bill.

You can now make "Bill" the subject of the sentence. To do so, you put the verb "give" into the passive voice.

Bill was given a present.

You can also make the present the subject of the sentence:

A present was given to Bill.

So you first choose what you're talking about (the subject), and then the relation of the subject to the verb determines the verb's voice. If you're talking about George, you have active voice; if you're talking about Bill, or the present, you have passive voice. This is the grammatical consequence of the subject and the verb you have chosen.

Now, I said it's about the verb and not the meaning you're expressing with the verb. Why? Because sometimes you can use a different verb to express the same set of circumstances. So:

If you assume the verb "give", and you make "Bill" the subject of the sentence you have the passive voice:

Bill was given a present.

But you could use a different verb to express the meaning, say "receive".

Bill received a present.

"Receive" meaning what it does, the verb is now in the active voice. Putting "the present" into the subject slot would still render the verb in the passive voice:

A present was received.

Note that the verb "receive" does not allow George in the subject slot at all. If you choose the verb "receive", the only way to put "George" anywhere near the subject of the sentence is a rather roundabout construction:

It was George from whom Bill received a present.

Again, you can find a new verb to focus on the present, say:

A present exchanged hands.

Now, both George and Bill are deleted from the core meaning of the verb; though you can add them in a prepositional phrase:

A present exchanged hands from George to Bill.

So, very often, if you really want to avoid the passive voice, you can do so by finding the appropriate verb. It's just that - often - there is no reason at all to avoid the passive voice.

"Bill was given a present," (passive voice) is as precise or vague as "Bill received a present." (active voice) Bill is as active or passive in either sentence, too. Between these two versions, the difference are mainly word count, rhythm, register.

Another, more subtle, difference is that the passive voice "was given" draws more attention to the "giver" (who is often absent from the sentence), than "receive".

To illustrate that difference, take a pair of verbs that make for different slots in a social transaction, say "buy" and "sell":

I bought a book. --> I was sold a book.

See the difference? The active voice version of "buy" focusses entirely on you and the book. The passive voice version of "sell" focusses on you and the book, too, but it also hints at the absent seller.

It's this difference that earns the "passive voice" the epithet of "vague", even though "I was sold a book," is no more vauge than "I bought a book." There is a seller in both cases, and it's mentioned in neither. However the existance of the seller is brought up if you use the verb "sell". It's in the verbs very meaning.

[Calliopenjo]

Burger's Daughter by Nadine Gordimer

Why do I bring this up? I was on another forum and I asked the ever curious question: Have you ever wanted to throw a book against a wall? One of the members answered yeah I did, and mentioned that book. What caught me off guard was the title. I hear burger and I'm thinking a bacon cheeseburger hold the tomato and onion. While the title though is misleading the first two pages were an easy and interesting read. If anyone wants to take a look:
http://www.amazon.com/Burgers-Daughter-Nadine-Gordimer/dp/0140055932/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241315626&sr=8-1#reader
and click the cover to read inside. It was published in 1979 so not that long ago.

My two cents for the day. ;)

[James D. Macdonald]

James Joyce has a lot to answer for.

[Calliopenjo]

James Joyce had a bacon cheeseburger? :Shrug:

[Judg]

Nothing misleading about the title. Burger has more than one definition. Although I've usually seen it spelled burgher. Bourgeois is the same word, coming through French, and it means a citizen of a walled city. In other words, a city person, probably a merchant or tradesman, as opposed to a farmer.

[Ken Schneider]

Nothing misleading about the title. Burger has more than one definition. Although I've usually seen it spelled burgher. Bourgeois is the same word, coming through French, and it means a citizen of a walled city. In other words, a city person, probably a merchant or tradesman, as opposed to a farmer.

A Burgermeister. Master or mayor of the Burg/town/city.

Yeagermeister. Hunter Master. Or a thick black tar like drink.

Yeagerschnitzel Hunter steak.

Shall I continue? http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Calliopenjo]

I never knew that. I cook and I eat. I love burgers. So I see burger I'm thinking food. That was the first thought that came to mind without considering the meaning of the name until I got to page two. Then the title made sense. That's why I said that.

[smsarber]

Yeager: Pilot to first reach speed of sound. (He is, isn't he?)

[smsarber]

Does anybody else use Duotrope's Digest to find markets to send submissions to? Great find for me, sadly, though, a few of the markets I've submitted to have gone into the "Temporarily Closed" category.

[MiltonPope]

Yeager: Pilot to first reach speed of sound. (He is, isn't he?)
Technically, I suppose, Yeager was the first to EXCEED the speed of sound.

And that reminds me, as so many things do, of the movie "The Right Stuff", with its confusing casting choices: Scott plays Glenn, Glenn plays Shepard, Shepard plays Chuck Yeager... and Chuck Yeager plays the bartender.

--Milton

[smsarber]

So who REACHED it but didn't go a thousandth of a mile-per-second over it first?

[raburrell]

Morning everyone,

My CP was bemoaning her terminal case of rewrite-itis this morning, which led me to dig out a couple of Word macros which helped me conquer mine last year. (I know, macros are evil)

I found that whenever I opened my document, I'd have this terrible urge to polish my first chapter(s), rather than moving the story forward. By forcing Word to automagically open to where I left off, it helped me stop rewriting. Document in the right place, brain in the right place. At the very least, I think it's a time saver.

Anyhow, thought I'd share the link, in case others here are suffering with the same problem:
How to make MS-Word Open to Last Edit Position (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2329214,00.asp)

[Blue Sky]

Plenty of pilots flew at and past the speed of sound before Yeager, but didn't live to tell about it. An aerodynamic phenomenon called compressibility gradually locked fighter plane control surfaces in place. (Only in steep dives.) The plane then nosed into a vertical dive all the way to earth or sea. Sometimes props would break and engines blow up as well. Observers couldn't tell what was going on.

Here's the straight poop from a few pilots who survived the experience, including Yeager. He also tells about his historic survivable supersonic flight in the X-1.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2412barrier.html

Helicopters in steep dives can also experience this. In a dive, the much faster moving advancing rotor blades can reach supersonic speed. Compressibility then twists the rotors, breaking them off. Thus, the aviator term "blew blade"--one blew this way, one blew that way...

Not a fun experience for helicopter pilots, because like WWII fighter pilots, they have no ejection seats. ;)

Okay, back to novel land.

[Neversage]

Burger's Daughter by Nadine Gordimer

Why do I bring this up? I was on another forum and I asked the ever curious question: Have you ever wanted to throw a book against a wall? One of the members answered yeah I did, and mentioned that book...

My two cents for the day. ;)

I read the first few pages. I really liked the description of the business men: "...men in business suits worn absently as outer skin..."

However, I quickly became annoyed with the long sentences and exhaustive descriptions. Some of which conjured some silly images. Maybe it's just not my style.

[Scribhneoir]

By forcing Word to automagically open to where I left off, it helped me stop rewriting. Document in the right place, brain in the right place. At the very least, I think it's a time saver.

Anyhow, thought I'd share the link, in case others here are suffering with the same problem:
How to make MS-Word Open to Last Edit Position (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2329214,00.asp)

Good grief. Word needs a separate macro to do that? WordPerfect has a menu option you can set.

[raburrell]

Good grief. Word needs a separate macro to do that? WordPerfect has a menu option you can set.

Yep. I'm not a big fan of Word either, but... it's what I've got.

[smsarber]

Good grief. Word needs a separate macro to do that? WordPerfect has a menu option you can set.
OpenOffice does it automatically. It is SUPERIOR;) Just Kidding WordPerfect believers, I don't use it because of the price: OpenOffice=Free, WordPerfect=$300.00:eek:

[smsarber]

I guess the movie The Right Stuff was really my only education on that matter. 'Course, I only posted that as a smart-alec response to Ken's Yeagermeister observation. Thanks for setting me straight, guys. Now I know more about Mach 1 & beyond travel than I did to start the day, and I'm inspired to research a little more. Any good books to recommend on the subject?

[Scribhneoir]

Yep. I'm not a big fan of Word either, but... it's what I've got.

I'm convinced that's the only reason Word ever became the so-called standard -- all those computers sold with Word already bundled on to it. Too bad. WordPerfect is much better.

[Scribhneoir]

OpenOffice does it automatically. It is SUPERIOR;)

Ah, but WordPerfect lets you make up your own mind. You can set it to open where you left off or at the beginning of the document. So there. :tongue

[raburrell]

Ah, but WordPerfect lets you make up your own mind. You can set it to open where you left off or at the beginning of the document. So there. :tongue

Yannow, I almost added something to my post begging not to turn it into a WP -swordfight. It was a suggestion for those who use Word. For those who don't it's a chance to feel superior. Everyone wins, right? :D

[smsarber]

Ah, but WordPerfect lets you make up your own mind. You can set it to open where you left off or at the beginning of the document. So there. :tongue
But it cost $300 friggin dollars. RIP-OFF!!

addendum: Rip-off if you live off $600 a month disablility.

[Scribhneoir]

But it cost $300 friggin dollars. RIP-OFF!!


Well, if you're gonna get bogged down in details . . . :D I just had to stick up for my favorite a bit.

[Krintar]

I have to admit, I had no idea that hitting ctrl+end was such a chore.
Guess you live and learn.

[smsarber]

I do like WordPerfect a lot, but OpenOffice is just fine for my purposes.

Does anyone use Duotrope's Digest to find markets to submit short stories and such to?

[Perle_Rare]

Uncle Jim, I need a refresher on "words in position of power". I know you've discussed this before but I did a quick search through this thread and couldn't find it.

My understanding is that those are the last words of a paragraph. Strong words compel the reader to move on and read the next paragraph. Weak words might make the reader choose to stop right there. Is that more or less right? Is there more to it than that?

How do we go about figuring out how strong a certain choice of words happens to be? Once we've done that, are there any techniques for making a word stronger?

The only technique that comes to mind is that a more precise word would be stronger. So in the Twilight analysis, "parka" was stronger than, say, "jacket", or "coat".

Any light you can shed on this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[James D. Macdonald]

It isn't that the words are strong, it's that the place they occupy is strong. The readers will notice them, and hold them. Location, location, location!

Jacket, coat, and parka are all equally strong or weak; each could be the right word or the wrong word depending on what we want the reader to take away.

[Perle_Rare]

Just when I think I'm making progress and finally understanding something, I discover it was all a mirage.

*sigh*

So, no technique to analyze what I have and try to improve on it other than crafting each word as carefully as possible (which I was already attempting to do)?

*double sigh*

[James D. Macdonald]

Say we ended the paragraph with:

I packed a sandwich and a parka.

Compare that with :

I packed a parka and a sandwich.

In which sentence is the parka more important? In which is the sandwich more important? How does each help create a mental picture of the place where the speaker is going?

[Neversage]

Maybe it would help to think of it like colors. Bluish-green. The important color is the one mentioned last. It is green, that is a little towards blue, but still primarily green.

[Perle_Rare]

Let's see what words are in positions of power:

rolled down
cloudless blue
farewell gesture
parka

clouds
United States of America
old
fourteen

Of them all, "parka" is the strongest.


Does that mean that the visual brought about by the word "parka" was the most suggestive?

[James D. Macdonald]

Does that mean that the visual brought about by the word "parka" was the most suggestive?


No, it means that "parka" was the last word in a paragraph.

[Kitty Pryde]

Critters are always telling me that I've hidden away the crux or the really deep bit of the story in the middle of a paragraph, or that I've sunken the bit most illustrative of theme right in the middle of a sentence.

Would you say, in order from most to least powerful phrase placement, it would go end of chapter, end of paragraph, end of sentence, right in the middle of things? And if that's the case, how can we avoid that 'rule' interfering with the mechanics of telling the story in a certain order? (I hope that question makes sense!)

[James D. Macdonald]

Put the important part in the main clause.

[smsarber]

Who knew there was so much technical stuff in writing? I knew I shouldn't have dropped out of school...

[James D. Macdonald]

Your stories should follow a rising interest curve so that the most interesting parts, the strongest parts, and the climax, come at the end. If you've done it right, within inches of each other.

If you finish strong the entire work will seem, to the reader, to have been stronger than it really was. (Conversely, if you finish weak, the rest of the work will seem, in retrospect, weaker.)

Shall we now go read The Wonderful One-Hoss Shay (http://www.legallanguage.com/resources/poems/onehossshay/)?

I think we shall. Go, read it. Come back when you're done. Understand it and you understand much.

(That Oliver Wendell Holmes, by the way, was Dr. Holmes, the father of the Supreme Court justice of the same name.)

[Perle_Rare]

Done. But...

:Shrug:

Since I've already dug in my hole pretty deep today, it can't hurt any more to dig it deeper so here I go:

The one-hoss shay (or one-horse chaise) was built with every component exactly as strong as the other; a very marvel of engineering! So when it broke, every piece of it broke at the same time, resulting in a pile of junk.

How to map that to the craft of writing, however, is beyond me. :Huh:

[smsarber]

I skimmed it a bit, cut and pasted it into OpenOffice so I can print it out and look over it better, but I have to agree with Perle. Knowing that Uncle Jim will enlighten us how it fits.

[Ken Schneider]

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Or, make a plan 'cause you don't know when it'll all go to hell.

[Kitty Pryde]

Well if characterization is my weak point, then I need to improve it. Now scene-setting is my weak point, so I need to improve it. And now plotting is my weak spot, so I need to improve it. Continue ad infinitum? And the writerly equivalent of building the one-hoss shay would be, I dunno, turning into michael chabon? aaaand the one-hoss shay breaking down is when you win the pulitzer prize and then someone gives you a bad review because your work is genius but they hate it anyway?

Or maybe where we're going with the metaphor is that ALL the sentences need to be literary masterpieces, such that they last one hundred years.

[Perle_Rare]

Well if characterization is my weak point, then I need to improve it. Now scene-setting is my weak point, so I need to improve it. And now plotting is my weak spot, so I need to improve it. Continue ad infinitum?


Makes sense. That's the procedure I think of when I think of honing a craft.


And the writerly equivalent of building the one-hoss shay would be, I dunno, turning into michael chabon? aaaand the one-hoss shay breaking down is when you win the pulitzer prize and then someone gives you a bad review because your work is genius but they hate it anyway?


... or when your genius has become incomprehensible to the rest of the world so that your readership gets reduced down to one: yourself.


Or maybe where we're going with the metaphor is that ALL the sentences need to be literary masterpieces, such that they last one hundred years.

... and then all turn to dust together?

[FOTSGreg]

Build some pieces stronger than other pieces. If some of them wear out sooner, you can replace them more easily than you can the whole construction.

Like someone said above, if everything is built equally strong, it will all wear out at the same time. That leaves your reader going off saying "Huh, what?" or "Yeah, so?".

[James D. Macdonald]

The Deacon's Masterpiece has lasted much longer than one hundred years. Examine it.

How does Holmes present his story? How does he present his information?

Notice that there's a punchline--a climax. How does he set that up? Where's the foreshadowing? What's the poet's relationship with the audience?

But mostly, where does he put the important words?

(Note the use of dialect. This has fallen out of favor. Who knows? Someday it may make a return.)

[Neversage]

What I gather from the One Hoss Shay is that we are given an exciting introduction with a promise: he'll tell us what finally did the One Hoss Shay in. Immediately we are given background, reasons, characters, intent; everything we need to understand why we will care about the answer to our question: what happened to the One Hoss Shay in the end?

Then, only then, are we given the answer. It is a good answer because we can appreciate it, having gone through the rest of the story. If we had been told the answer right from the start, it would be mediocre.

This, as I understand it, is an excellent example of how to tell the reader the right thing at the right time. I'm sure there is more to it, but that's what I got out of it.

Thanks, Uncle Jim!

[FOTSGreg]

Maybe I see (maybe not) - You place your stronger words towards the beginning and end of your sentences and paragraphs where they will have the strongest and most memorable impact leading into the next sentence or paragraph. Therefore, your stronger words naturally last longer than your weaker words, your stronger sentences longer than your weaker sentences, etc., etc.

The analogy to stronger parts vs weaker parts holds, I believe.

Each part leads to longer life for the rest of the work as a whole, but the stronger parts support the weaker parts.

[smsarber]

(Note the use of dialect. This has fallen out of favor. Who knows? Someday it may make a return.)

This was a point I was just making with a piece Euclid posted in SYW recently. The consensus seems to be that use of dialect in written works is distracting. I personally like it. It gives me a better feel for the characters and their surroundings, hometowns, whatever.

[Judg]

Does anyone use Duotrope's Digest to find markets to submit short stories and such to?
Duotrope is the best comprehensive source of short story markets that I know of. I did use it a bit, but I don't write many shorts.

[James D. Macdonald]

I've recommended Duotrope several times.

[smsarber]

I'm certainly a believer in them. I'd like to find a source with more horror markets though. Oh well.

[Blue Sky]

[quote=James D. Macdonald;3564630]Shall we now go read The Wonderful One-Hoss Shay (http://www.legallanguage.com/resources/poems/onehossshay/)?

First of all, thanks for a fun read Jim. These pearls could take a long time to discover on one's own.

IMHO:

OWH created a literary piece without weakness by doing exactly as he shows the deacon did not. OWH uses weak prose in positions of strength--first and last words--in order to create accessibility. He consciously designed weakness in, rather than attempting homogenized strength.

What does a strong piece of writing do? It knocks our socks off and we forget ourselves, much less literary analysis. When we catch our breath, as the dust clears, such a work begs closer attention.

Prose-wise, the eighth para is locked, being the year OPENING 18 and CLOSE 55 framing the apparently indestructible one-hoss shay. The remaining paragraphs contain a rhythym of strong and weak words of varying intensity. Check 'em out! The rhythms might speak to you uniquely. To me its like a buggy bouncing down the road.

I like how OWH uses conversational dialog that looks weak, but conveys strong ideas and concepts. In so doing, words appearing weak are in fact cornerstones. Huh?

What is writing? A symbolic written system that conveys thoughts. It's an imperfect system, but as OWH shows, first we can use that imperfection as a strength. Second, apparent imperfection allows the spice of life to grow. Third...what do you see in the work?

If our words convey clear, strong thoughts--which build concepts, thought paragraphs--it doesn't matter whether the words melt like ice cream or last like OWH's trees. The reader gets it and creates the one-horse shay in his or her mind.

OWH's first and last paragraph mirror each other, his final "say" immeasurably stronger given the evidence following his first "say."

I'd "say" he succeeded!

[euclid]

That poem is like the forerunner of the modern cry: "Why don't they build the whole airplane from the same materials used for the black box?"

I think I understand what you are telling us. I firmly believe that every written piece - every paragraph - has a natural rhythm. Like talking. Who needs writing that comes across as a monotone? Hence the weak/strong contrast.

It might be interesting to apply this principle to the Gettysburg Address or something similar. The American Constitution, maybe.

BUT wasn't it Raymond Chandler who said: "Try to write something memorable in every line."?

[euclid]

I'm struggling with the concept of the Inciting Incident. Is it really necessary to have one of these in every chapter?

[Neversage]

Fascinating how each of us seems to gather something slightly different from the poem. I missed the moral of the story in favor of the mechanics of the storytelling. I guess that's where my mind has been lately. Not sure if that's a good thing.

I honestly think building a "kerridge" well enough to last a century, even if it does crumble to dust in the end is the way to go.

[euclid]

I honestly think building a "kerridge" well enough to last a century, even if it does crumble to dust in the end is the way to go.

Ideally, yes, but then building anything is always ALWAYS a trade-off. As some clever engineer once said: "I can build it well, I can build it fast or I can build it cheap. Pick any two."

Also, there's a lot to be said for built-in obsolescence.

[Neversage]

More on the Wonderful One-Hoss Shay.

After a few more readings, I have gathered another lesson from this delightful piece. To engineer a story thusly: that the plot, characters, and theme continually ramp up enjoyably and with interest until in one moment (the climax) they are all resolved, succinctly ending the story.

This may not fully apply to works intending a sequel, but even then, it would apply to the central story in such works. Thoughts? Am I digging too deep?

[Blue Sky]

This poem is deep. I don't think you are going too deeply. I'm going to print the poem out and hang it next to my monitor. Each time I look, I see more. I'm curious what others see as well.

And OWH's lesson is his opinion, though his writing skill makes it sound like fact. With our material manipulation at the molecular level, I can see us building structures and vehicles that could last, for all intents and purposes, forever.

We'll have finally exceeded the material technology used to build the pyramids--stone!

:Shrug: