Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1 [Archive] - Page 33

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euclid

03-04-2009, 07:12 PM

Lying by that mountain stream I expect she was being eaten alive by mosquitoes and black flies.

Good point. No wonder she's gone. Except mosquitoes feed only at night. The black flies would do it, though.

James D. Macdonald

03-04-2009, 07:16 PM

Mosquitoes only feed by night? That'll be a big surprise to our North Country mosquitoes.

I expect she'll have some pretty good goosebumps, too. Maybe she needs to put on a sweater.

lexxi

03-04-2009, 08:19 PM

I expect she'll have some pretty good goosebumps, too. Maybe she needs to put on a sweater.

Hm, if she's now wearing only a sweater, that would make for a memorable image too. I wish I hadn't pictured it.

MumblingSage

03-04-2009, 09:56 PM

Oh yes, that was the article that made me a fan of the Atlantic. And ended my guilt for disliking Cormac McCarthy.

FOTSGreg

03-04-2009, 11:47 PM

Interestingly, over on the Analog forum we're having a discussion regarding SF writing where we've been talking about characterization recently. One point I brought up was that editors, agents, and publishers want to see active characterization in novels, but that bestsellers seem to have some really cardboard characters in them.

Oh, add in deer flies, horseflies, and a few sundry other flies to the mix of mosquitoes and black flies. Any area of exposed naked flesh is going to be a feeding ground for local bugs.

Then there are the sand fleas which will crawl onto the flesh and into any available wrinkle or moist crevice along with other similar arthropods and suddenly you're talking real, ahem, difficulties, especially for women (me, I keep my clothes on and buttoned up when in the woods).

James D. Macdonald

03-04-2009, 11:51 PM

I wish I hadn't pictured it.

Hmmmmm.... I'm kinda glad I did ....

This story is getting more interesting by the minute.

Just at that moment, a Kodiac bear stepped from behind an elderberry bush.

"Put down that camera!"

"What do you mean? I gotta carry it. I'm a Kodak bear!"

"That' Kodiac, not Kodak, you fool! Now fetch me a pair of pants or I'll see you're made into a rug."

smsarber

03-05-2009, 12:29 AM

[quote=FOTSGreg;3356289] bestsellers seem to have some really cardboard characters in them.

quote]
What? Like the cardboard Elvis cut-out in Odd Thomas?;)

Judg

03-05-2009, 03:19 AM

"In Toni Morrison's Beloved, the eyes of Sethe, the protagonist, are certainly a telling detail. Here is how Sethe's eyes are seen by her old friend Paul D:

irises the same color of her skin, which, in that still face, made him think of mercifully punched-out eyes.

...Such telling details...stay in the reader's mind with an almost hypnotic force."

I don't get this. What are "punched-out eyes"? And "mercifully" punched-out eyes?

Maybe it's a cultural thing...
Punched-out I assume to mean like holes punched out of a piece of paper.
The "mercifully" part is easy. Beloved is set in the post-Civil War period, with flashbacks to slavery. The abuse that most of the characters had endured (unfortunately, historically accurate) makes you understand why they would think it a mercy not to have to look on this world.

Yet Morrison manages to give these same characters a dignity even in their brokenness that is almost palpable. An incredibly powerful novel that I highly recommend.

Chris Grey

03-05-2009, 05:17 AM

I never claimed that you couldn't learn something from the various "how to"s, but there's a point of diminishing returns that anyone who reads with a writer's eye reaches all too soon.

The Atlantic article confirmed something I had long lamented. And it's a shame, because longer metaphors don't necessarily have to suck. Take Harlan Ellison, who once wrote, "It was the kind of voice one suspected would accompany the body attached to the moving finger writing mene mene tekel in letters of fire." He spent half a paragraph describing this voice before summing it up in a single word. Why does this succeed where, say, Cormac McCarthy fails? Because Mr. Ellison knows what words mean.

Still, there will always be the "cultural" "elite" who define art as "anything an artist makes." I still don't see how "mercifully" and "punched-out" go together, even in punch cards, but then I'm not too familiar with slavery. Were they, like, wage slaves? Did they have those early computers like before magnetic tape was around?

I think too many people get hung up on descriptions. I think that description should serve two purposes: to define (in the true sense, like a sculptor cutting away the marble that is not David) and to impress. The latter is key, the diction of description is a freeby for telling the audience what to think. "Thieflike eyes" imply so so much in so little space.

Perle_Rare

03-05-2009, 06:11 AM

"...Now fetch me a pair of pants or I'll see you're made into a rug."

In my version, she'd prefer to have that bear turned into a fur coat rather than a rug considering the fact that she's not wearing a whole heck of a lot at this point...

euclid

03-05-2009, 01:57 PM

In my version, she'd prefer to have that bear turned into a fur coat rather than a rug considering the fact that she's not wearing a whole heck of a lot at this point...

Easier said than done. Have you ever tried to turn a bear into anything? Even a side-street? And this one is armed with a camera!

Perle_Rare

03-05-2009, 03:02 PM

Easier said than done. Have you ever tried to turn a bear into anything? Even a side-street? And this one is armed with a camera!

Yeah, but it's just a Kodak! Now if it were a Canon... :D

smsarber

03-05-2009, 03:17 PM

Yeah, but it's just a Kodak! Now if it were a Canon... :D
And I'm pretty sure he's chewing some bubble gum. Bazooka...

euclid

03-05-2009, 04:11 PM

I think that description should serve two purposes: to define (in the true sense, like a sculptor cutting away the marble that is not David) and to impress. The latter is key, the diction of description is a freeby for telling the audience what to think. "Thieflike eyes" imply so so much in so little space.

What do you mean by impress? I hope you don't mean to influence the reader to think "what a natty writer - coming up with telling descriptive phrases like that". I hope you mean to implant a strong image in the reader's mind.

I have those, btw, thief-like eyes. Very shifty. I never could look anyone in the eye. I've flunked untold quantities of job interviews because of them. And going through customs at airports is a nightmare!

MiltonPope

03-05-2009, 09:22 PM

"Marvin's thieflike eyes darted toward the woman's purse."

--Milton

MumblingSage

03-05-2009, 09:45 PM

I think 'thieflike' is giving far too much away, but that's beside the point.

Whatever the point is.

The Atlantic article confirmed something I had long lamented. And it's a shame, because longer metaphors don't necessarily have to suck. Take Harlan Ellison, who once wrote, "It was the kind of voice one suspected would accompany the body attached to the moving finger writing mene mene tekel in letters of fire." He spent half a paragraph describing this voice before summing it up in a single word. Why does this succeed where, say, Cormac McCarthy fails? Because Mr. Ellison knows what words mean.

That is a brilliant description. I think what's also helping it is the fact that Mr. Ellison isn't mixing metaphors for the same sensory impression. The examples of Proulx's work especially made me wince.

James D. Macdonald

03-06-2009, 12:45 AM

And I'm pretty sure he's chewing some bubble gum. Bazooka...

"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum."

Rowdy Roddy Piper as Nada in John Carpenter's They Live.

Speaking of mixed metaphors (http://mitchbenn.com/images/mp3.php?t=The+Devil+And+A+Hard+Place&id=10)...

Perle_Rare

03-06-2009, 03:10 AM

Speaking of mixed metaphors (http://mitchbenn.com/images/mp3.php?t=The+Devil+And+A+Hard+Place&id=10)...

:D

Chris Grey

03-07-2009, 03:34 AM

What do you mean by impress? I hope you don't mean to influence the reader to think "what a natty writer - coming up with telling descriptive phrases like that". I hope you mean to implant a strong image in the reader's mind.

Just so.

I have those, btw, thief-like eyes. Very shifty. I never could look anyone in the eye. I've flunked untold quantities of job interviews because of them. And going through customs at airports is a nightmare!Being confident also gets you frisked at airports. "Hey wait, this guy is on time for his flight, he has all his paperwork in order, he proceeded through the line without fumbling, and he isn't sweating... Only a terrorist would know our system so well!"

@MumblingSage:

I think 'thieflike' only gives away too much if that quality is supposed to be a surprise. Otherwise, it says everything in just a word.

I love Ellison's descriptions. They can be wordy, even lengthy, but they're always poignant. Even if you don't know the reference, you're going to get the idea.

Standing on the precipice of a runaway train, nice.

Blue Sky

03-07-2009, 04:37 AM

Hi guys--came up for air on what is currently page 145.

Jim and reph with link answered the "over and out" question in radio communications. Thanks. That was years ago for some of you, but recent for me. I'd like to add some flavor for novel writing.

The most important reason for opening with callsign exchange, changing speaker with "over" and ending transmission with "out" is discipline.

Communications is the most important technical aspect of running a military unit and other high risk endeavors. Ya hafta talk. When the sh*t hits the fan, a unit without radio discipline blocks their own frequencies This can include coms with any technology--think people rather than machines.

People panic, talk simultaneously and there's no way to tell them to be quiet. I have experienced this and it's a helpless feeling, to put it mildly. In training, accidents become more likely. In warfare, the self-paralyzed unit may die at the hands of an opponent who maintains communications. The NVA destroyed many green U.S. units in Vietnam at this moment of opportunity.

From the NVA's perspective, they were the good guys, just like characters in any novel. It's a matter of perspective. Hope this helps when your cyborg army deploys against the infidel dog people. Wuff! ;-)

Btw Jim, I too served in the Republic of Panama, but as a UH-60 commissioned officer in the Army. Stayed for four years and loved it.

Phil

euclid

03-07-2009, 12:58 PM

Standing on the precipice of a runaway train, nice.

Please explain.

Perle_Rare

03-07-2009, 04:30 PM

Please explain.

It will make more sense once you've listened to the song Uncle Jim linked in post 8017 (Linked as "mixed metaphors").

euclid

03-07-2009, 05:00 PM

It will make more sense once you've listened to the song Uncle Jim linked in post 8017 (Linked as "mixed metaphors").

:D

James D. Macdonald

03-07-2009, 07:14 PM

Someone thought that these titles and these examples of cover art were good ideas.

Real Books That Look Like Photoshops (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/comedy-goldmine/real-books-photoshop.php)

Remarkably, many of these weren't self-published. I've seen several of them in the wild (and may I say, it's worth getting a copy of Scouts In Bondage (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/1416549234/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/): it's a collection of unfortunate book covers over the ages).

smsarber

03-07-2009, 07:58 PM

So then, is it more acceptable to paint a cat than to shave it?

James D. Macdonald

03-07-2009, 08:54 PM

Yes, painting your cat is more socially acceptable, but shaving and waxing your cat (since it takes longer) is more useful to writers who are trying to put off writing.

If you have a poodle you can do even more astounding things (http://www.pinkcoyote.net/creativegrooming.html) to put off the moment when you start writing.

James D. Macdonald

03-07-2009, 09:31 PM

Oh, and since to be a novelist is to know mankind, here are True Porn Clerk Stories (http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/tpcs1.php). A young lady takes a temp job while waiting for the freelancing thing to work out.

Insightful and funny. What's not to like?

smsarber

03-07-2009, 09:56 PM

I did NOT leave my thumbprint on that DVD! She lies:cry:! But seriously, that was pretty funny.

Perle_Rare

03-08-2009, 01:53 AM

Uncle Jim,

Half of me wonders where you find all these things you link to in this tread.

The other half really doesn't care to know.

:D

smsarber

03-08-2009, 03:53 AM

Hey Uncle Jim, got a question I've asked before, but I'm going to ask again because I am a pain... I'm writing about a fictional town in New Hampshire, approx. 80 miles west of Manchester. You gave me some good points on some town layout a long time ago (and I have that page printed out for reference), but I wanted to know what would be a good site to find physical characteristics of the land. All native fauna and botany as well as good photos to really bring out my descriptions. You are certainly a king of research, so I'm hoping you'll be able to guide me to a good site.
Thanks

blacbird

03-08-2009, 12:17 PM

Are you unfamiliar with Google? Search for "New Hampshire photos plants animals" and you'll get everything you could possibly want.

caw

smsarber

03-09-2009, 07:38 AM

Yeah, I am familiar with Google. My reasoning is that there are an endless number of sites, and I thought someone could tell me the best one.

James D. Macdonald

03-09-2009, 08:03 AM

For New Hampshire plants and animals, your first stop should probably be the NH Fish and Game (http://wildlife.state.nh.us/Wildlife/wildlife.htm) site.

80 miles west of Manchester is somewhere between Walpole and Keene. So, let's see: Walpole has a population of around 3,500, which I think is about what you wanted for your story? Hit Google Images for Walpole, NH, then hit your local library for tourist books on the North East, and for books on plants, birds, flowers, and so on, for the North East.

Tourist books are wonderful for the writer who can't visit the places, as long as you don't have people giving each other as-you-know-Bob descriptions of local places and events.

(If you want a smaller town, Gilsum, NH, has a population of 811. If you want a larger one, Keene is a college town, with a population of 22,500.)

Google images with the town name is a quick shortcut to finding all the pictures you want on one page.

Research one real town, then re-name it. That's how to cheat.

cooeedownunder

03-09-2009, 08:03 AM

LOL I never missed the post you deleted, and your google experience I see has improved. At the end of the day, only you can decide what is the best site :)

smsarber

03-09-2009, 08:45 AM

Perfect, thanks Uncle Jim! Walpole will be a good setting to play around with and tweak to my needs. Yes, the perfect size, etc...

James D. Macdonald

03-09-2009, 08:51 AM

Tonight on CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/03/06/words.language.pc/index.html):

"Can't we English-speakers just agree upon a gender-neutral pronoun?" attorney Paul Easton recently Twittered. "Tired of PC grammar gymnastics."

Easton isn't alone. There have been at least 18 recent tweets about the fact that English has no grammatically correct substitutes for words like "he," "him," and "his" that do not have a gender implied.

Consider the sentence "Everyone loves his mother." The word "his" may be seen as both sexist and inaccurate, but replacing it with "his or her" seems cumbersome, and "their" is grammatically incorrect.

Nonsense! "Their" is perfectly grammatically correct. The objection to the singular their is another of the botches created by the Latinate prescriptive grammarians of the 18th century. (Along with, more famously, not ending a sentence with a preposition, and not splitting an infinitive (both forms that we all use, perfectly correctly, every day).)
Chaucer used the singular their. The King James Bible uses it. Shakespeare used it. Jane Austin used it. George Orwell used it. F. Scott Fitzgerald used it.

And I use it.

Go, my children, and say "Everyone loves their mother."

It's correct.

cooeedownunder

03-09-2009, 08:56 AM

Everyone loves their mother, well they should :)

James D. Macdonald

03-09-2009, 09:08 AM

The Walpole, NH, weather cam. (http://www.weatherbonk.com/weather/camDetail.jsp?id=cam_1227628133804)

Walpole images (http://images.google.com/images?ndsp=18&hl=en&q=walpole+nh) (Google) Everything from the town's tourist board photos to snapshots of people's weddings.

And New England Travel Guides (http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_adv_b/?search-alias=stripbooks&unfiltered=1&field-keywords=new+england&field-author=&field-title=&field-isbn=&field-publisher=&node=27&url=&field-feature_browse-bin=&field-binding_browse-bin=&field-subject=&field-language=&field-dateop=&field-datemod=&field-dateyear=&sort=relevancerank&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=19&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=7).

You'll probably also want to find a copy of Curious New England (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/1584653590/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/).

HelloKiddo

03-09-2009, 09:36 AM

Nonsense! "Their" is perfectly grammatically correct. The objection to the singular their is another of the botches created by the Latinate prescriptive grammarians of the 18th century. (Along with, more famously, not ending a sentence with a preposition, and not splitting an infinitive (both forms that we all use, perfectly correctly, every day).)
Chaucer used the singular their. The King James Bible uses it. Shakespeare used it. Jane Austin used it. George Orwell used it. F. Scott Fitzgerald used it.

And I use it.

Go, my children, and say "Everyone loves their mother."

It's correct.

THANK YOU Uncle Jim! I've been trying to tell people this, but I always get corrected when I do so. Usually I just wind up using "he" in order to avoid an argument about the subject. I agree 100%. Can we please stop this awkward silliness already? *Sigh*

DamaNegra

03-09-2009, 09:39 AM

Can someone please explain what does splitting infinitives mean?

James D. Macdonald

03-09-2009, 10:09 AM

Splitting infinitives:

Okay.

In English, an infinitive is a verb in the form "to [verb]." E.g: to love, to warn, to rule, to hear.

In Latin (and other inflected languages), you can't split infinitives because the infinitive form is one word. E.g: amare, monere, regere, audire.

But in English, since the infinitive is two words, you can put other words between the "to" and the verb. Famously, from Star Trek, "to boldly go where no man has gone before."

English has always split infinitives. But when the Latinate Prescriptive Grammarians came along in the 18th century, to impose the grammatical rules from Latin onto English in order to make English respectable (since Latin was the perfect language) they decided that it was therefore wrong to split infinitives in English.

MumblingSage

03-09-2009, 06:19 PM

Everyone should go forth from this thread to passionatly love their...nevermind.

/Oedipus complex

James D. Macdonald

03-09-2009, 07:59 PM

DamaNegra

03-09-2009, 10:29 PM

Oooh, thanks, Uncle Jim. Splitting infinitives never made sense to me because I speak a language in which infinitives consist of only one word. I've always had that doubt.

But really, trying to apply Latin rules to English? Ha! It doesn't even quite work with Spanish, even though Spanish is more akin to Latin than English (not that people haven't tried; the first Spanish grammar in the XV century had that exact purpose).

smsarber

03-09-2009, 11:18 PM

DeeCaudill

03-10-2009, 12:21 AM

There are two kinds of grammarians in the world: Descriptive and Prescriptive.

What about militant grammarians?

smsarber

03-10-2009, 12:49 AM

That may be a whole other animal altogether.

MiltonPope

03-10-2009, 03:41 AM

I don't know if it's a great help for designing fictional towns, but www.city-data.com is a phenomenal collection of public data for almost any town in the US. So it's 14 miles from Walpole to the nearest hospital. 18 Miles to the nearest airport. Lower than usual unemployment. Graphs of temperature, humidity, wind, snow by month. Older population, not much black or Hispanic population. And a hundred more.

Chris Grey

03-10-2009, 03:53 AM

There are two kinds of grammarians in the world: Descriptive and Prescriptive. The Descriptive Grammarians find the way that the language works based on the way native speakers use it. The Prescriptive Grammarians figure out how they want the language to work, and try to get native speakers to go along with it.

Descriptive Grammarians win.

Yet we must be ever vigilant, for Prescriptive Grammarians teach. A textbook on grammar that boasts "10% more rules than leading brands" is going to get bought by school boards. You wouldn't want your kids to learn some kind of slackjawed slang in school, would you? So, even to this day, children have "Thou shalt not split infinitives" driven into their heads by rote. To this day, I get "corrected" by people who can't use an apostrophe.

English is not Latin.

Besides, to use the Star Trek example, splitting the infinitive gives English a lot of descriptive power. "To boldly go" is the key phrase, and if you look at it, "go" is in a position of power. Star Trek's emphasis is not on boldness, but on going.

euclid

03-10-2009, 03:57 AM

The Young Visiters; or, Mr. Salteena's Plan by Daisy Ashford. A novel, from 1919. It went into multiple printings in its first year.

Ms. Ashford was nine years old when she wrote it.

The novel was turned into a stage play, which ran in New York and London in 1920.

I have it. An illustrated version dated 1949. Brilliant! It's full of little gems. How on Earth did they make a play out of it, though? It's so small (50 pages) and nothing much happens.

euclid

03-10-2009, 03:59 AM

... to use the Star Trek example, splitting the infinitive gives English a lot of descriptive power. "To boldly go" is the key phrase, and if you look at it, "go" is in a position of power. Star Trek's emphasis is not on boldness, but on going.

"Boldly to go" puts "go" in the same position.

smsarber

03-10-2009, 05:45 AM

I don't know if it's a great help for designing fictional towns, but www.city-data.com (http://www.city-data.com) is a phenomenal collection of public data for almost any town in the US. So it's 14 miles from Walpole to the nearest hospital. 18 Miles to the nearest airport. Lower than usual unemployment. Graphs of temperature, humidity, wind, snow by month. Older population, not much black or Hispanic population. And a hundred more.
A veritable gold mine of usable info there, thanks!!

Calliopenjo

03-10-2009, 08:09 AM

Hi Uncle Jim,

What are the pitfalls of starting a story, book, novel, etc. with dialog? No narrative to start with.
Ex:

"I tell you Germaine," Hermione said, "It wasn't like that. I cast the spell like the book told me and. . . it just. . . sort of. . . okay I messed up."

"Let's see if we can try this again." Germain said, "After the spell wears off. It's a little difficult to do anything when you're a snail."

It took sometime before the spell wore off. When it did, Germain opened the book to page one and started with the first lesson: Proper words to use while casting a spell.

James D. Macdonald

03-10-2009, 09:31 AM

Pitfalls? Same as in any other story: Confusing the readers.

(Perhaps you're asking the wrong person: we wrote and sold a short story that was entirely in dialog. When I say "entirely," I mean it: there weren't even any dialog tags.)

euclid

03-10-2009, 02:20 PM

James D. Macdonald

03-10-2009, 06:38 PM

Excellent, Euclid!

Ours was "Nobody Has To Know," which appeared in Jane Yolen's Vampires (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0060502223/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/).

euclid

03-10-2009, 07:01 PM

[quote=James D. Macdonald;3374920]Excellent, Euclid!/quote]

Hey, thanks for reading it.

Can I put your ringing endorsement in my cv?

Do you have an electronic copy of "Nobody Has To Know" to hand? If so, could you sent it over? I'd love to read it.

Perle_Rare

03-10-2009, 08:42 PM

Read both and they both made me smile! Thanks! :)

Euclid, if you follow UJ's link, you can use Amazon's "look inside" feature to read the story. It's the first one in the book.

Which makes me wonder: Uncle Jim, how do you feel about Amazon's "look inside" feature? I figured that since you provided the link, it was all right for me to read your story there. But say the anthology was still being sold by Amazon, how would you feel about having your story out there for everyone to read while you receive no royalties from it?

I've heard arguments both ways on that feature and I was just curious how you personally felt about it, if you don't mind.

Thanks!

James D. Macdonald

03-10-2009, 09:17 PM

The biggest risk to a writer isn't piracy. It's obscurity.

Given that the number one reason anyone buys a book is because they've read and enjoyed another work by that same author, I don't mind people reading my stories where ever they find them.

Note that I've posted a bunch on my own webpage.

Perle_Rare

03-10-2009, 09:36 PM

Thanks, Uncle Jim! That's exactly what I was curious to know.

BTW, I'm plodding through Henning Nelms' book, trying to assimilate it. I recognize a large number of your guiding priciples in there. It's neat to see how it all comes together and makes so much sense. I just wish I was more interested in magic, though! :D

James D. Macdonald

03-10-2009, 09:50 PM

T I just wish I was more interested in magic, though!

What could be more magical than thought transference to create a world in a reader's mind?

Perle_Rare

03-10-2009, 10:24 PM

:o

Touchée!

Maybe that's exactly the new insight I needed to get the most out of the rest of the book. Thanks, Uncle Jim!

euclid

03-11-2009, 03:41 AM

I read "Nobody has to know". Neat (and tidy) story. Nice one, Jim and Debra.

Chris Huff

03-13-2009, 12:21 AM

Uncle Jim,

Thank you for taking all this time over the last few years to keep up this thread. And thank you for answering all these questions. I have to admit though, that after pouring over the 300+ pages of this thread, there’s a lot of overlap. That’s the nature of the beast, I know.

[Just so you know, I started writing this at page 300. I had to get something down to join the conversation.]

But here’s one for future reference of people asking questions here.

Anonymous Questioner: “Uncle Jim, I know your mantra is ‘BIC (Butt in Chair), bull through to the end, and finish the book,’ but [here’s why I’m different], and [here’s how my book is different], what should I do because ?”

Uncle Jim’s standard answer: “What works for you is right. And BIC, bull through to the end, and finish the book.”

Next Post: “Uncle Jim, I know your mantra… but…”

Oh, and please thank Doyle for condensing and editing the thread into a book on writing. I can’t wait to read the additions she makes. And if I may, where are you two at on the project?

Note: As a pure geek for old pulp magazines and having utterly odd tastes in movies, I love anything with Nazis or dinosaurs. Preferably both…

At first I didn’t quite understand the level of adulation going on in this thread, but you had me at, “You must always strike the right balance between dinosaurs and sodomy.”

For a decent read filled with mixed metaphors and bizarre phrases, people should check out [I]Pet Peeve, by Piers Anthony.

cooeedownunder

03-13-2009, 12:49 AM

euclid - that piece is nicely done :)

Calliopenjo

03-13-2009, 01:29 AM

Hi Uncle Jim,

I read the explanation for what an exposition is, but how does that translate, in simpler terms, in what is seen in a book?
==========
EXPOSITION:

Details, usually imparted in summary form, that give the readers the background information they need to understand the story.

Exposition often appears at the beginning of a story, but it can be interspersed throughout the piece, between or within episodes that more actively carry the plot. In some stories, of course, a long period of exposition is not particularly crucial.

James D. Macdonald

03-13-2009, 01:51 AM

Take a paperback copy of your favorite novel (or, any novel picked at random from the Three Books for a Buck bin at your local bookstore).

Take a highlighter.

Go through and highlight everything that fits that definition of exposition.

There is your answer.

Neversage

03-13-2009, 02:14 AM

"Almost there," I said to myself, peering up at the misty summit some thirty yards ahead. The trek up this mountain had been a strange one that I would likely remember forever. Even now, the steps I took led me through thoughts and opinions in many voices, their sounds distant echoes in time. For this mountain, in a way, was time itself.

I crested the trail, surveying the misty sky and cliffs from the highest point in the area. I chuckled. "I'm not sure whether it's the journey or the end that's the reward this time," I said to myself, as I often did when alone. But I wasn't alone.

Instinctively, I took a step back. Sitting casually on a rock, a book in his hands, was a middle-aged man. He had a healthy beard and wore a black leather jacket, giving an edge to his otherwise genial appearance. His dark eyes scanned the book he held with one hand, then stopped. He gazed up at me.

"So, you made it at last?"

"I've made it to the top," I said, noting that his was a question, not a statement.

"How was the journey?" he asked as his eyes rested upon the page again.

I searched for an adequate word, but only came up with, "incredible."

He considered that for a moment as he took in the view from the mountain top with obvious familiarity. "What are you going to do now?"

"Well," I said, "if I'm correct, the past is back that way--" I indicated the trail behind me, "--so the future must be the other side."

"Do you think it's all downhill from here?" he asked, meeting my eyes again.

"I think there's another fine looking mountain ahead."

He smiled, and nodded. "Off you go, then."

I returned his nod, and set off. As I passed him, I stopped. "Uncle Jim," I said heavily.

He looked up again, "Yes?"

"Thanks."

He smiled again, and I set off down the other side of the mountain.

Calliopenjo

03-13-2009, 03:21 AM

Thanks Uncle Jim.

euclid

03-13-2009, 04:14 AM

euclid - that piece is nicely done :)

Glad you liked it Cooee

allenparker

03-13-2009, 05:43 PM

I am running a writing experiment. For the last ten book I read, I have been plotting the books by page number.

The experiment went like this. I took three books by three authors. One author had four book. I read the first two books by each author and recorded the pages by action and important plot points. With the third book, I read only the pages with plot twists and points, based on the pages from their first book.

With all three, I could predict the pages, within a couple, that would have important action. The one author who had four books, the last book was a much shorter read, the ratios held true. Adjusting for the size difference, I could predict the action pages within one or two pages.

Did I miss a memo or something? Am I supposed to be using a set plot line adjusted to a formula so rigid that I end up being able to predict what happens where? Or is this some subconscious brain train that all good writers naturally have?

James D. Macdonald

03-13-2009, 06:42 PM

Allen, if it's not too much trouble, could you try that with one of my books?

(I wonder... if something's happening on every page will the experiment give a false positive?)

gabbleandhiss

03-13-2009, 09:28 PM

That sounds similar to Blake Snyder's Beat Sheet (aka BS2) for screenplay plot point structure. You might research it or his book Save the Cat! for details, but this is the basic structure:

Opening Image
Point Stated (at 5% into the movie)
Set-Up (takes up the first 9% of movie)
Catalyst (at 11% mark)
Debate (between the 11% and 23% portion)
Break into Two (at 23%)
B-Story (at 27%)
- usually the romantic story or subplot
Fun and Games (from 27%-50%)
- the clips for movie trailers tend to come from this section
Midpoint (50%)
- there's usually a party about 60 minutes into a movie
Bad Guys Close In (50%-70%)
All Is Lost (70%)
- false defeat, whiff of death
Dark Night of the Soul (70%-75%)
Break into Three (75%)
Finale (75%-100%)
Final Image (100%)

Last summer, I applied the BS2 to about 75 movies. The majority of those movies (which included movies like The Godfather 1 + 2, Chinatown, Psycho, L.A. Confidential, Strangers on a Train, etc.) followed this structure.

I did the same for the 1st season of The Sopranos. Ditto for a DC comic book event called Crisis on Infinite Earths. Was planning to apply it to novels, but decided I was too lazy to be that ambitious.

Chris Huff

03-14-2009, 12:03 AM

I’m more familiar with a variant of Syd Field’s plot breakdown, but here goes for novels.

This assumes an 80k word ms., and 250 ms. words to the published book page…

Act I: 1–27
Hook: 13
Inciting Incident: 27
Act II: 27–80
Call to Action: 40–53
Plot Point: 53–80
Act III: 80–160
Midpoint: 133–160
Act IV: 160–240
Plot Point: 213–240
Act V: 240–320
Climax: 267–320

This assumes a 100k word ms., and 250 ms. words per published page…

Act I: 1–33
Hook: 17
Inciting Incident: 33
Act II: 33–100
Call to Action: 50–67
Plot Point: 67–100
Act III: 100–200
Midpoint: 167–200
Act IV: 200–300
Plot Point: 267–300
Act V: 300–400
Climax: 333–400

I would be interested to know what breakdown you used Allen.

(Posting this and checking a few books by it...)

RJK

03-14-2009, 01:16 AM

That sounds similar to Blake Snyder's Beat Sheet (aka BS2) for screenplay plot point structure. You might research it or his book Save the Cat! for details, but this is the basic structure:

Opening Image
Point Stated (at 5% into the movie)
Set-Up (takes up the first 9% of movie)
Catalyst (at 11% mark)
Debate (between the 11% and 23% portion)
Break into Two (at 23%)
B-Story (at 27%)
- usually the romantic story or subplot
Fun and Games (from 27%-50%)
- the clips for movie trailers tend to come from this section
Midpoint (50%)
- there's usually a party about 60 minutes into a movie
Bad Guys Close In (50%-70%)
All Is Lost (70%)
- false defeat, whiff of death
Dark Night of the Soul (70%-75%)
Break into Three (75%)
Finale (75%-100%)
Final Image (100%)

Could you provide definitions for your bold points and possibly examples?

gabbleandhiss

03-14-2009, 02:58 AM

1. Opening Image
The very first impression of what a movie is -- its tone, its mood, the type and scope of the film. It gives us the starting point of the hero. It gives us a moment to see a "before" snapshot of the guy or gal or goup of people we are about to follow on this adventure.

2. Theme Stated
Somewhere in the first five minutes of a well-structure screenplay, someone (usually not the main character) will pose a question or make a statement (usually to the main character) that is the theme of the movie. This statement is the movie's thematic premise.

In many ways a good screenplay is an argument posed by the screenwriter, the pros and cons of living a particular kind of life, or pursuing a particular goal. And the rest of the screenplay is the argument laid out, either proving or disproving this tatement, and looking at it, pro and con, from every angle.

3. Set-up
This is the make-or-break section where you have to grab the audience or risk losing them. The first ten minutes "sets up" the hero, the stakes, and goal of the story.

Make sure you've introduced or hinted at introducing every character in the A story.

Plant every character tic, exhibit every behavior that needs to be addressed later on, and show how and why the hero will need to change in order to win.

And when there's something that our hero wants or is lacking, this is the place to stick the Six Things That Need Fixing. Six is an arbitrary number, that stands for the laundry list you must show the audience of what is missing in the hero's life. These six character tics and flaws will be exploded later in the script, turned on their heads and cured.

The first 10 pages and the rest of Act One is the movie's thesis; it's where we see the world as it is before the adventure starts. There is a sense in the set-up that a storm's about to hit, because for things to stay as they are. . . is death. Things must change.

4. Catalyst
Call to adventure.

Catalyst moments: telegrams, getting fired, catching the wife in bed with another man, news that you have three days to live, etc.

Life-changing events often come disguised as bad news. The catalyst is not what it seems. It's the opposite of good news, and yet, by the time the adventure is over, it's what leads the hero to happiness.

5. Debate
This is the last chance for the hero to debate whether to stay or go.

The debate section must ask a question of some kind.

Once the debate question has been answered, the hero can proceed into Act Two.

6. Break into Two
The act break is the moment where we leave the old world, the thesis statement, behind and proceed into a world that is the upside down version of that, its antithesis. Because these two worlds are so distinct, the act of actually stepping into Act Two must be definite.

The hero cannot be lured, tricked, or drift into Act Two. The hero must make the decision himself -- he must be proactive.

7. B Story
the B story of most screenplays is "the love story." It is also the story that carries the theme of the movie.

The B story gives us a breather from the A story and the abrupt jump into Act Two and its whole new world.

This is where the hero will be nurtured. This is the place where the hero will confide what she is learning. This is the place from which the hero will draw the strength he needs for the final push into Act Three and ultimate victory.

The B story is also very often a brand new bunch of characters. These are the upside down versions of those characters who inhabit the world of Act One.

It provides not only the love story and a place to openly discuss the theme of your movie, but gives the writer the vital "cutaways" from the A story.

8. Fun and Games
This section provides the promise of the premise. It is the core and essence of the movie's poster. It is where most of the trailer moments of a movie are found. It's where we arent' as concerned with the forward progress of the story -- the stakes won't be raised until the midpoint -- as we are concerned with having "fun."

Why did I come to see this movie?

This section is lighter in tone than other sections.

9. Midpoint
There are two halves in a movie script and the midpoint on page 55 is the threshold between them.

A movie's midpoint is either an "up" where the hero seemingly peaks (though it is a false peak) or a "down" when the world collapses all around the hero (though it is a false collapse), and it can only get better from here on out.

The stakes are raised at the midpoint. It's the point where the fun and games are over. It's back to the story!

It's never as good as it seems to be at the midpoint and it's never as bad as it seems at the All Is Lost point. Or vice versa.

10. Bad Guys Close In
This is the point where the bad guys decide to regroup and send in the heavy artillery. It's the point where internal dissent, doubt, and jealousy begin to disintegrate the hero's team.

Evil is not giving up, and there is nowhere for the hero to go for help. He is on his own and must endure. He is headed for a huge fall.

11. All Is Lost
It is the opposite of a midpoint in terms of an "up" or a "down."

Even though all looks black, it's just temporary. But it seems like a total defeat. All aspects of the hero's life are in shambles.

This is the place where mentors go to die, presumably so their students can discover "they had it in them all along."

It's where the old world, the old character, the old way of thinking dies. It clears the way for the fusion of thesis -- what was -- and antithesis -- the upside down version of what was -- to become synthesis, that being a new world, a new life.

12. Dark Night of the Soul
It is the point just before the hero reaches way, deep down and pulls out that last, best idea that will save himself and everyone around him.

This is the point where the hero admits humility and humanity, and yeilds control of events over to Fate. He is beaten and knows it.

13. Break into Three
Both in the external story (the A story) and the internal story (the B story), which now meet and intertwine, the hero has prevailed, passed every test, and dug deep to find the solution. Now all he has to do is apply it.

The classic fusion of A and B is the hero getting the clue from "the girl" that makes him realize how to solve both -- beating the bad guys and winning the heart of his beloved.

14. Finale
It's where the lessons learned are applied. It's where the story tics are mastered. It's where the A story and B story end in triumph for our hero. It's the turning over of the old world and a creation of a new world order -- all thanks to the hero, who leads the way based on what he experienced in the upside-down, antithetical world of Act Two.

The finale entails the dispatching of all the bad guys, in ascending order. Lieutenants and henchman die first, then the boss. The chief source of "the problem" must be dispatched completely for the new world order to exist.

This is where a new society is born. It's not enough for the hero to triumph, he must change the world.

15. Final Image
This is the opposite of the opening image. It is proof that change has occurred and that it's real.

Beat Sheet for the Wedding Crashers courtesy of www.blakesnyder.com (http://www.blakesnyder.com/)

http://www.blakesnyder.com/downloads/Wedding_Crashers_Beat_Sheet_FINAL.doc

He also provides a BS2 for Miss Congeniality in his book Save the Cat! And he's got another book consisting of 50 movies beat for beat. I think that's called Save the Cat Goes to the Movies.

At any rate, I think it's fairly similar to Joseph Campbell's monomyth structure. Nonetheless, it won't write your story for you. But if you're the kind of person who outlines, maybe it'll help. :)

Chris Grey

03-14-2009, 07:06 AM

Not even Plot Genie writes the story for you. To answer the question, though... what came first, the story or the plot analysis? Either every writer since the beginning of time knew what outline worked best and applied their story to it, or all the successful stories since the beginning of time had certain elements in common and this analysis picked some of them out.

The idea has been around (http://thepulp.net/PulpCompanion/03summer/plot.html) at least since Poulti. Does that mean each writer is using a formula to make his stories? Or does it mean they've just found a way that works and, by coincidence, the formula agrees?

I'd say both. This is dangerous for things sounding too artificial, but valuable as a guideline when things get mired.

Calliopenjo

03-14-2009, 08:20 AM

Hi Uncle Jim,

I think just because it's Friday, my brain's reading TILT TILT TILT TILT. Either that or the green ooze you see in the corner of the room is my brain declaring a break. Anywho, I need a word that sounds like gathered. Here's the sentence. Diane stepped down from the podium, and Leigh gathered her together and left the cemetary. Gathered her together sounds terrible. If you have any ideas for another word or phrase I'm open to them. (On hands and knees begging.)

LOG

03-14-2009, 10:17 PM

'Diane stepped down from the podium, and Leigh collected herself and left the cemetery.'
Cemetery is spelt with an 'e' near the end.
I wasn't sure of your tense,

'Diane had stepped down from the podium, so Leigh collected herself and left the cemetery.'

May also fit, sounds better to me, but I edited it so I'm biased. :tongue

smsarber

03-14-2009, 11:00 PM

Calli, maybe you could give us the whole paragraph? Because the way it reads to me, it sounds like Leigh collected the dismembered body parts of "her." Sorry, it's just how "collected" make such a short example sound to me. I'm a sicko, I know!

FennelGiraffe

03-14-2009, 11:39 PM

Diane stepped down from the podium, and Leigh gathered her together and left the cemetary.

I can't tell what you're trying to say. Who is "her": Diane or Leigh? Either way, "gather... together" implies there are several people or things involved. As a separate issue, the two "ands" are a bit awkward.

Diane stepped down from the podium, and Leigh escorted her out of the cemetery.

Diane stepped down from the podium, so Leigh pulled herself together and left the cemetery.

After Diane stepped down from the podium, Leigh collected her belongings and left the cemetery.

Calliopenjo

03-15-2009, 12:00 AM

The "her" refers to Diane. Gathered together to me creates a mental image of someone using a dustpan and brush to collect everything.

The events preceding that sentence are that Diane finished giving her eulogy. Leigh sat in the audience waiting for Diane to finish. So as Diane stepped down from the podium. . .

The story is still in its rough stages. I got stuck and couldn't think.

James D. Macdonald

03-15-2009, 03:24 AM

A word that sounds like gathered? Lathered? Blathered?

Diane stepped down from the podium, and Leigh gathered her together and left the cemetary.

As Leigh watched, Diane step from the podium. The younger woman gathered her emotions like a housewife sweeping up the shards of an antique vase, pulled her hat low across her forehead, and left the cemetery.

Neversage

03-15-2009, 04:53 AM

Calliopenjo

03-15-2009, 05:34 AM

How do you avoid redundancy in referring to a nameless character?

My dilemma is a short skirmish between my protagonist and a highwayman. To get through my draft, I just kept referring to him as "the highwayman," but this is awful to read over and over. There is no reason for my protagonist to know this man's name, and things like "the taller man," run dry quickly. Any ideas?

How about if your protagonist gives the "highwayman" a nickname that only they know. Ex: I'll call him John after the character in Highway to Heaven. He might not be an angel but he is just as mysterious.

smsarber

03-15-2009, 05:52 AM

What is a "highwayman?"

Chris Grey

03-15-2009, 06:03 AM

A highwayman is a knight of the road, or knight of the moon, depending on who you'd ask. It's an armed man who robs travelers on the road. Rarely alone. A bit common in England around the 16th century.

As to how to handle it, I'd say the same way you'd handle a named character. Pronouns where it won't be confusing, and carefully resorting to a distant cousin (once removed) of the saidism: his foe, his adversary, the bandit, the stranger, etc.

The highwayman swung wide, but John read his attack and ducked clean of the blade. He pushed off with his legs, lunging hard at his adversary's exposed stomach. John saw a glint of steel emerge from the bandit's cloak and only barely dodged his foe's pistol.

Additional identifiers can be derived from physical or other identifying characteristics (the tall man, the Frenchman, the dwarf, the gaily-clad rogue).

Stinks of saidisms, but whatcha gonna do?

Neversage

03-15-2009, 06:25 AM

Thanks, Chris. I'll try it that way. It's a short sequence, but part of the opening, so it naturally needs to be fluid enough to keep the reader in the action.

smsarber

03-15-2009, 07:11 AM

A-ha! I have heard the term, and just couldn't place it. Thanks for the info!

James D. Macdonald

03-15-2009, 08:32 AM

The Highwayman (http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs/lyrics/highwayman-orig.html) by Alfred Noyes

Beware the Burly Detective Syndrome. (http://www.critters.org/turkeycity.html)

"Burly Detective" Syndrome

Fear of proper names. Found in most of the same pulp magazines that abound with "said" bookisms and Tom Swifties. This is where you can't call Mike Shayne "Shayne" but substitute "the burly detective" or "the red-headed sleuth." Like the "said" bookish it comes from the entirely wrong-headed conviction that you can't use the same word twice in the same sentence, paragraph, or even page. This is only true of particularly strong and highly visible words, like, say, "vertiginous." It's always better to re-use an ordinary, simple noun or verb rather than contrive a cumbersome method of avoiding it.

Neversage

03-15-2009, 07:14 PM

Uncle Jim appears... and complicates my plans with his wisdom.

It's nice to know that going overboard with this has a term. The Burly Detective Syndrome seems to be part of what gave the Eye of Argon it's magical ability to make even the stoutest reader want to laugh through their vomit.

Perle_Rare

03-16-2009, 04:34 AM

The Highwayman (http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs/lyrics/highwayman-orig.html) by Alfred Noyes

Ah! Thanks Uncle Jim! That's the poem that Anne Shirley recites in the made-for-TV movie "Anne of Green Gables" based on the novel by Lucy Maud Montgomery. I had always wondered.

Calliopenjo

03-16-2009, 06:40 AM

Uncle Jim,

I have a question. Is it possible to change perspectives in the same story? You see, the perspective I have been using, Arrosa, would no longer be valid because her fledgling, Briallen, was taken back to the mortal world by Linus who is Briallen's father. What I was thinking was for the next chapter write from Briallen's perspective about the events that happened while she was with her father. At the same time though, I don't want to confuse the reader. Can it be done?

James D. Macdonald

03-16-2009, 10:00 AM

Sure it can be done.

The question is, can you do it?

There's only one way to find out.

euclid

03-16-2009, 01:21 PM

Beware the Burly Detective Syndrome. (http://www.critters.org/turkeycity.html)

I took a copy of this document to stick on my wall. It's brilliant! It seems to apply to all writing, not just SF (although some of the concepts are SF related).

Are there other do's and dont's for other genres?

euclid

03-16-2009, 03:51 PM

I'm in a bit of a quandary, here.

I am told by the experts (UK editors) that publishers in UK look for at least 100,000 words in an adult novel. But I believe US publishers look for less (up to 90,000?).

My book is 106,500 words long.
I have been pitching the book at both UK and US agents.

Should I shorten it? It would be a major Heraclean task, but I suppose it could be done.
If I did shorten it, should I then continue to pitch the longer version in UK while pitching the shorter version in US?

James D. Macdonald

03-16-2009, 05:39 PM

100K (if they're the right 100K) is fine with US publishers.

allenparker

03-16-2009, 05:56 PM

I'm in a bit of a quandary, here.

Should I shorten it? It would be a major Heraclean task, but I suppose it could be done.

This may be just me, but I find that if I can shorten the story and still tell the story, I have to shorten it to make it better. When there is a possibility of making the story tighter, more compact and keep the flow, color, and voice of the story in tact, I make the story a better read.

The trouble, I think, is knowing when you are not disturbing the world you are creating by lowering the word count.

euclid

03-16-2009, 06:18 PM

Thanks Jim.

Is 106,500 ok in USA, or should I try to trim 6,500 words?

Perle_Rare

03-16-2009, 06:25 PM

My inexpert guess would be that if trimming 6,500 words makes the story better, then trim.

If this is the incorrect answer, then it's proof that I never understood anything and that I would benefit from reading Uncle Jim's thread from the first post again... :Shrug:

James D. Macdonald

03-16-2009, 06:46 PM

euclid

03-16-2009, 06:53 PM

I don't think there's a publisher on the planet who is going to say, "This book is wonderful! Fantastic! Astounding! I couldn't put it down! But it's 6,500 words too long. Reject!" That's a tiny percent difference and your book will probably swing more than that one way or the other during editing anyway.

(Unless the guidelines say "Don't even think about submitting anything over 100,000 words, suckah!")

...but how did you know it was THAT good?

Is there somewhere in this thread or elsewhere that describes the usual agent/editor/publisher editing process? Sounds like torture.

And how do you KNOW when your book is finished (ie ready for query)?

Perle_Rare

03-16-2009, 07:25 PM

Neversage

03-16-2009, 08:13 PM

smsarber

03-16-2009, 08:29 PM

Depends on whether you're the kicker, or the kickee!;)

Calliopenjo

03-16-2009, 08:33 PM

Thanks Uncle Jim for all of your advice. :Hug2:

FennelGiraffe

03-16-2009, 08:43 PM

Uncle Jim, that link is priceless. I understand the terms, but there are a few of them that don't leave me certain whether they are good things or not. I may be dense, but is the "Eyeball Kick," for example, a good thing or a bad thing?

Look up at the top. It says:Most terms refer to things to avoid, but some, like the Eyeball Kick, are thought desirable.

Neversage

03-16-2009, 09:33 PM

Thanks, FennelGiraffe. How about Pushbutton Words? They seem like a good idea to me, if not overused.

Kitty Pryde

03-16-2009, 10:02 PM

Thanks, FennelGiraffe. How about Pushbutton Words? They seem like a good idea to me, if not overused.

Pushbutton Words
Words used to evoke a cheap emotional response without engaging the intellect or the critical faculties. Commonly found in story titles, they include such bits of bogus lyricism as "star," "dance," "dream," "song," "tears" and "poet," cliches calculated to render the SF audience misty-eyed and tender-hearted.

Nooooo! Not good. The point is, stars and dreams and tears are all well and good, but not when they're thrown in to create a generic and 'cheap emotional response', especially in the title. Fer instance: Dream is the main character of the Sandman, by Neal Gaiman. Those are great books with great storytelling. The Death Star is a key place in the Star Wars movies. Yay Star Wars. But on the other hand, titles like "Dragon's Tear", "Dance of the Unicorns", "Heart of the Crystal Star", "Dreamsong of Tears" etc etc turn up all the time in fantasy/science fiction. They are vague and nausea inducing. I think it's like the difference between drama (good) and melodrama (puke).

Neversage

03-16-2009, 11:02 PM

Ah. I get what you're saying, and agree. Titles like that turn me off. I was thinking of the concept of placing word like that in powerful positions to evoke greater emotion within a story. Ending a chapter on the word "tear," for example.

Calliopenjo

03-17-2009, 06:40 AM

Uncle Jim,

I'm going to test your link skills and am doing so out of desperation. Do you know where I can info on torture by electricity? I need enough to cause pain but at the same time, just a little bit more and they're dead. Where can I get that kind of info?

Also:

The person is on a metal table spread eagle. The "things" that put out the volts are tiny electrodes implanted into the cuffs So when the magic button is pushed, the electricity goes from the cuffs into the wrists either simultaneously or separately.

If this helps any.

batgirl

03-17-2009, 07:17 AM

Not that I'm Uncle Jim, obviously, but try Amnesty International's website, Human Rights First, or other human rights and anti-torture websites. There are a couple of good books on the subject, including The Body in Pain: the making and unmaking of the world. Memoirs of resistance fighters or activists who underwent torture can also be helpful.
-Barbara

smsarber

03-17-2009, 04:46 PM

He would be fried all over his back, buttocks, the backs of his legs and arms, if he's on a metal table. Probably cooking his internal organs. If you want the electricity to pass through his body to avoid all-over burns and death, make the table wood, formica, or some other non-conductive surface. Electricity passes through the area of least resistance, but if you put him on a large conductor the path of least resistance will be the table. (Because the electricity has to leave the body.) I shocked myself one time when I was a window cleaner touching a neon sign with a bad ground. The shock went in my right hand and blew out of the tip of my left index finger. Ouch! Oh yeah, it's the watts that kill you, not the volts.

Calliopenjo

03-17-2009, 07:43 PM

That gives me one piece of information. Never considered I was using the wrong material. I'll go back and change that. Thanks Steven.

RJK

03-17-2009, 08:02 PM

I just Googled "torture by electricity" and got 1,900,000 hits. just reading the headings on the first 10 will give you a lot of information.

James D. Macdonald

03-17-2009, 09:17 PM

And the discussion of torture is over. Now.

Kitty Pryde

03-17-2009, 09:27 PM

Hey Uncle Jim! Could you please talk about bad guys? How can I walk the fine line between a bad guy getting his comeuppance for his evilness, while avoiding things getting too preachy over his misdeeds? I'm talking subtly evil dudes, not supervillains or evil dictators or serial killers.

And yes, I know sometimes baddies don't get what's coming to them. But say I have a character who is subtly racist/sexist/ablist/choose your bigotry, but well thought of by most of her co-characters. How can I show the audience the error of her ways without getting preachy about it?

James D. Macdonald

03-17-2009, 11:54 PM

Kitty Pryde

03-18-2009, 12:20 AM

Thanks Uncle Jim! I do try to consider that my jerks and bad guys and such all think that they are the good main characters of their own stories. I do find it difficult though; I feel like I'm too nice to write anyone being too terribly bad.

I think I'm afraid that if things don't go Horribly Awry for my Subtle Bigot, then my reader will think I implicitly agree with him. Which I don't.

Like when I read older novels that were written in much more sexist times (especially good old pulpy SF), and the male characters are super sexist and tell women what to do and have their way with them and pinch the buxom secretary's butt, I think to myself that the author tacitly approves of such attitudes. So how can I prevent myself from sounding the same way, if a given vile trait doesn't come back to bite my bad guy in the a**?

Calliopenjo

03-18-2009, 12:42 AM

Thanks guys. :Hug2:

smsarber

03-18-2009, 12:43 AM

Bad guys?

The first thing you need to know is that they don't know they're bad guys. Everything they thing and do is perfectly reasonable and logical to them. They think that they're doing good and right.

The second thing that you need to know is that while you are writing that person you'll have to agree with him/her.

Don't preach. And when you're giving that person's opinions play fair. Give strong and convincing arguments to your subtle bigot.

The thing is, your hero will win. But giving the bad guy a Come Uppance for his Evilness is so very Hayes Code (http://www.artsreformation.com/a001/hays-code.html). You can do better than that.
Great stuff uncle Jim! And I want to say sorry for the torture talk... I was only trying to help. But on Bad Guys: I know what you mean. In The Silvertone I have the token bad guy, you know, the guy in horror novels that makes you wonder how the writer can be sane yet get in the head of such a morally depraved person. I have my chapters broken up in sections, and sometimes it's hard to go from my "sqeaky-clean" hero (not really sqeaky-clean, but you get the idea) into said bad guy's head. But it's fun to go back and forth like that. Of course, you don't have to write horror to have the same releationship in your stories. I find that sometimes watching movies in the genre you're writing can help to really feel how certain characters will react and act in situations, and how they live their life. I don't know if this ramble-fest will help anyone, but it might.

PS: Reading books in the same genre you're writing helps just as much, and sometimes more than movies. But if you're on a roll in the writing the movies are over in an hour and a half- a book takes a little longer to go through.

smsarber

03-18-2009, 01:03 AM

Thanks guys. :Hug2:
You better thank us! You got us in trouble, lol.;)

Calliopenjo

03-18-2009, 05:29 AM

Sorry. I was desperate. :flag:

Chris Grey

03-19-2009, 03:38 AM

And the discussion of torture is over. Now.

Since I missed the party, can I just say that there are some cases when "show, don't tell" is a bad idea, and many many cases where "less is more" is a good idea?

("Write what you know" is right out)

Bad guys?

The first thing you need to know is that they don't know they're bad guys. Everything they thing and do is perfectly reasonable and logical to them. They think that they're doing good and right.

The second thing that you need to know is that while you are writing that person you'll have to agree with him/her.

Don't preach. And when you're giving that person's opinions play fair. Give strong and convincing arguments to your subtle bigot.

The thing is, your hero will win. But giving the bad guy a Come Uppance for his Evilness is so very Hayes Code (http://www.artsreformation.com/a001/hays-code.html). You can do better than that.

You should be able to use your same plot but tell their story and have it make sense.

I think everyone should get what's coming to them in the end, but being Evil is no more a crime than being Irish is. When a fantasy book has NENA signs in its windows, it gets what's coming to it: a sudden one-way flight across the room.

Kitty Pryde

03-19-2009, 03:46 AM

I think everyone should get what's coming to them in the end, but being Evil is no more a crime than being Irish is. When a fantasy book has NENA signs in its windows, it gets what's coming to it: a sudden one-way flight across the room.

NENA? She who sings "99 Red Balloons (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-NU_2S7kC0OU/99_red_balloons_by_nena_english_version/)"? Me thinks I missed something important.

Chris Grey

03-19-2009, 04:15 AM

NENA? She who sings "99 Red Balloons (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-NU_2S7kC0OU/99_red_balloons_by_nena_english_version/)"? Me thinks I missed something important.

Not her, but you can still hear fighter jets.

I think you missed it too, but that was a long time ago and most people prefer to pretend it didn't happen. It's NENA because I had to change the acronym to fit "Evil" instead of that other one.

Perle_Rare

03-19-2009, 05:41 AM

I love "99 Red Balloons" but, even with that clarification, I still don't understand what NENA stands for... or what the jet fighters have to do with fantasy flying out the window...

:Shrug:

James D. Macdonald

03-19-2009, 05:49 AM

The Highwayman (http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/%7Etrent/ochs/lyrics/highwayman-orig.html) by Alfred Noyes

BTW, it wouldn't be a bad idea to memorize "The Highwayman."

That way you'll always have a party trick....

Judg

03-19-2009, 06:09 AM

I do disagree about bad guys. A lot of them are fully aware that what they're doing isn't right. But they don't care, or they rationalize it.

My son just read Fieldy's memoirs (a member of the group Korn). An ueber-jerk if there ever was one. And he was always aware that he was being bad, but he didn't care. It was working. So why change if you're getting what you want?

I know there are people who are convinced they're doing the right thing. My next bad guy will be one of them. Scarier in some ways than the sociopath in the last book who was utterly indifferent to right and wrong. (Which is pretty much the definition of a sociopath.)

Niamh1882

03-19-2009, 09:31 AM

I'm going to test your link skills and am doing so out of desperation. Do you know where I can info on torture by electricity? I need enough to cause pain but at the same time, just a little bit more and they're dead. Where can I get that kind of info?
.

I pitch all of those sorts of questions into the NaNoWriMo (http://www.nanowrimo.org)boards. The WriMos are usually full of answers, and torture is one of their favorite topics. :Wha: No matter how out there your question, some one at that board is an expert (or at least willing to play one on the internet). Might be a better place than this board for questions that aren't easy to google.

Speaking of things that aren't easy to google:
the top ten search results for "NENA" were (in this order) 2 links for "National Emergency Number Awareness", 6 for the German Neue Deutche Welle singer, 1 for the Lower Ninth Ward "Neighborhood Empowerment Network Association" (is this the one you meant Kitty?), and one for the "New England Needlework Association".

Now if you asked me to come up with an acronym for those letters I would have gone with "North East Nuclear Agency" or "Neighborly Emus Nanny for Albatrosses".

James D. Macdonald

03-19-2009, 10:12 AM

There will be no discussion of torture here, and I remind everyone that I have the power to delete posts.

Neversage

03-19-2009, 09:37 PM

On the subject of villains, I've found it most interesting when the hero and the villain want the same thing. The hero is often limited by morals or attachments in the means they can take to reach their desired end.

The other way to toss this is for the hero and villain to want to do the same thing, but for different reasons, and with different results. It is a kind of rivalry. This is part of the basis for the villain in my WIP.

Calliopenjo

03-20-2009, 01:17 AM

Sorry Uncle Jim :flag:

FOTSGreg

03-20-2009, 05:08 AM

Speaking of villains...

I've got a villain in my book who has ingratiated himself with the protagonist after first challenging and despising him and being confronted with science that he could not refute and still remain reputable. The villain, who doesn't even know he's a villain yet (I didn't even realiz it until a little while ago) and probably wouldn't admit it to himself if he did know, has arranged for the hero to receive his PhD (after writing his dissertation, but the character has already told the hero that he's defended his positions adequately). The hero has been showered with money and there is definitely a money motivation for his university to extend and award the degree to him (money talks in the university world).

I'm curious, Uncle Jim, how would you make the villain mentioned above more and more of a villain without either of the characters actually falling to the fact? At this time, the villainous character and the protagonist consider themselves friends although they were recent rivals. The villain has even visited the hero's lab ad offices and informed him of the fact that he's being granted his PhD (he doesn;t tell him that a large portion of the award is due to the money the hero has brought to the university).

Eventually, I hope to make this book a series and the organizations backing the hero and a couple of the villains, both overt and covert, more important.

smsarber

03-20-2009, 09:08 AM

Uncle Jim,
Just out of curiosity, what are the other subjects we may encounter in the writing of our novels that will be off-limits? I understand why you don't want the discussion of torture, we don't need to give anyone resources to commit heinous acts or crimes. But since I don't want to ever bring in the wrong topic for discussion I thought I'd ask what is taboo. And since I mainly write horror, if I have a question that is taboo, can I ask you in PM?

smsarber

03-20-2009, 09:10 AM

NENA: Not Entirely Non-descript Aardvarks

MiltonPope

03-21-2009, 03:48 AM

Writers' conference and workshops are often mentioned as the way to get your work seen by someone who matters. Would you (y'all -- Uncle Jim and others) agree? Workshops are expensive.

I'm at least several months from having anything to show, but the sooner I make my plans, the better.

--Milton

vrabinec

03-21-2009, 03:59 AM

smsarber

03-21-2009, 04:19 AM

In one of my works my antagonist isn't a bad guy at all- it's a haunted/possessed antique radio. But there is still a bad guy, under the control of the radio. Here's a question, though. I have named that character Spike Caan. Who thinks Spike is too predictable a name for a bad guy? He's a cop-killer, a frequenter of ladies of the evening, and naturally an ex-con- the name was a prison nickname. And come to think of it, I never even came up with a given name for him. (Naturally, it wasn't hard for the radio to coax him into evil. Kind of like the devil taking control of an IRS agent- not much of a stretch;))

James D. Macdonald

03-21-2009, 04:43 AM

Do you, yourself, know anyone named Spike?

As to who to root for: Who's the first person to show up in the book? Who's the person on page one? The readers will be rooting for that person unless you work to change them.

James D. Macdonald

03-21-2009, 04:45 AM

Thinking of heroes and villains may be limiting you. Think of protagonists and antagonists.

As to workshops and conferences -- some people find them useful. Some don't. Check with your local librarian to see if there's anything near you, or look at a local community college. You can often find small, free, conferences and workshops in either place.

smsarber

03-21-2009, 04:48 AM

Calliopenjo

03-21-2009, 06:45 AM

Hi Uncle Jim,

While browsing the New York Times Bestseller List I noticed something interesting. I'm going to pick on John Grisham because that's mom's favorite.

The Associate by John Grisham
(Doubleday, $27.95)

What's Doubleday? Is that the publishing company?

James D. Macdonald

03-21-2009, 06:51 AM

Doubleday is the publisher.

Calliopenjo

03-21-2009, 08:15 AM

Thanks Uncle Jim :Hug2:

James D. Macdonald

03-21-2009, 08:56 AM

Doubleday has been around in one form or another since the late 19th century. If you hear writers talking about "BDD," that's Bantam/Doulbleday/Dell. At the moment BDD is part of Random House, which is owned by Bertelsmann, a German media conglomerate.

Calliopenjo

03-21-2009, 07:47 PM

Wow. It sounds so complicated. One company a part of another part of another and if you look in the teeny weeny corner, that's where they'll be. Interesting fact. Thanks.

Cybernaught

03-21-2009, 07:58 PM

Wow. It sounds so complicated. One company a part of another part of another and if you look in the teeny weeny corner, that's where they'll be. Interesting fact. Thanks.

And chances are, at the very very top of the chain is Disney. They seriously own everything.

smsarber

03-21-2009, 08:41 PM

Conspiracy!! That feeling you get, sitting at your desk, writing, maybe sipping a hot espresso, you know the feeling... like someone's there, looking over your shoulder? Tickling your ear or the back of your neck or the flash out of the corner of your eyetheshadowthatyoucan'tquitesee?!?!...

It's Tinkerbell.

maestrowork

03-21-2009, 08:56 PM

And yes, I know sometimes baddies don't get what's coming to them. But say I have a character who is subtly racist/sexist/ablist/choose your bigotry, but well thought of by most of her co-characters. How can I show the audience the error of her ways without getting preachy about it?

You can't. If you try to say to the readers: racism is bad, they will catch on and that becomes preachy. And in real life, racists don't always know they're racists, and they don't usually get their comeuppance either. Also, if you make those people into "villains" it will come across as stereotypes, maybe. I mean, why can't the protagonist be prejudiced? Why can't the protagonist be flawed? Why can't the antagonist be perfect?

I think you need to trust your readers, and that they have to good sense and intelligence to see that, oh, these behaviors are not very good. But if you're trying to use your message to preach "racism is bad" then you ARE walking on a thin line of being preachy. Instead, just let the story tells itself, and let the readers make their own judgment. I mean, who knows? Maybe one of your readers happen to agree with the racist. So what do you do now?

FOTSGreg

03-21-2009, 11:21 PM

I don't have a problem figuring out who's the protagonist and who's the antagonist. That's clearly defined right from the word "Go" (well, actually, the antagonist, and their precise goals, remains shadowy through much of the first book), but in this particular case cited above, the positions are very unclear. In the first scene the protagonist presents a paper at a scientific symposium and finds himself denigrated by this other minor character who happens to have a lot of power and influence in the field the protagonist is working in.

In the second scene the minor character suddenly shows up at the protagonists college and labs and very excitedly announces he's talked with the university president and the protagonists teachers and advisors and they've all decided he's ready to receive/be granted his PhD (this is after the university has been given a sizable amount of money to "pave the way" for the protagonists research and give him a base of operations by the government). The protagonist does deserve his PhD, BTW, but this is a bit early for him to actually get it and it's somewhat "out of the blue".

Now, I've known for some time that there are ulterior motives behind the grant, mainly the desire for more government money by the university. In addition everyone in his field is picking away at the protagonists research, grabbing bits and pieces of it for themselves,but I didn;t realize until the other night what a nice setup the old, wise, formerly antagonistic and now friendly professor would make for a special antagonist for the protagonist. He's nearly a perfect mole (another mole is discovered late in the first book, but he's a fellow student of the protagonists) for the protagonists enemies (who try to kill him late in the book).

It would be very, very interesting, I think, to turn this former adversary, now friend, of the protagonist into somebody much more powerful and important within the organization of the enemy than he currently appears. He might even be at the forfront of the group that caused the problem the protagonist is working to fix.

Chris Grey

03-22-2009, 05:19 AM

I meant NENA as No Evil Need Apply. Given the context, "but being Evil is no more a crime than being Irish is. When a fantasy book has NENA signs in its windows..." I figured you'd figure that my acronym derived from something and switch the E to an I in your googling. It's from No Irish Need Apply, a practice in America for quite a while wherein merely being Irish was crime enough to bar people from getting jobs. That only changed after the Kennedies-- it's rather tasteless to spout anti-Irish hate after their assassinations-- but only in that it was no longer vocalized. Forty years later and it's all but forgotten: America pretends really hard that it was never racist in the first place, and the Irish are too proud to dwell on it.

History aside, what I meant by NENA is that fantasy (or any fiction), as a whole, has a tendency to paint morality in broad strokes. You're either a good guy or a bad guy, with the exception of the token good guy with a black hat*. It's genetic morality-- anyone with a mustachio is arrested on sight and nobody sees anything wrong with it. Fantasy often crusades against these evil nations, usually full of a token race of evil so nobody has any doubts or regrets ("oh, they're just orcs"). And, in bad fantasy, nobody ever tries to get into the head of the villain. "They're evil, they're not like you or me."

Now, this isn't just fantasy. It's pretty common in romantic comedy and other genres. You know the "boy meets girl but she's seeing someone else" genre? How often is the other guy a nice guy? Never. And to drive the point home, you always see him kicking puppies and tying little old ladies to the tracks and swirling his mustachio. Good vs Evil, wherein Evil is some tangible quantifiable essence and justifies whatever happens in the end.

And yeah, I agree with UJ. It's terms of protags and antags here. You're telling a story, not preaching fire and brimstone. Someone is trying to do something, someone else is standing in the way. Whether it's a story of someone rising up against an empire or the story of an empire trying to enforce hegemony against a rebellion, or both stories at once with a romantic twist, you need not apply "good" and "bad" to tell it.

* Rarely is anyone who self-describes as evil actually so. To do so, to be aware of the possibility of being evil, requires a pretty solid understanding of morality.

smsarber

03-22-2009, 06:29 AM

:Jaw:That was quite a mouthful Chris. Good stuff, I only disagree with one point- in many cases the antagonist not only knows he's evil, but enjoys the fact.
A case of one who doesn't know: Annie Wilkes in Misery by Stephen King. And she's a point for your team, mad as a hatter and clueless about it.
The Mastermind in Roses Are Red by James Patterson: bad guy, knows it, loves it.
Harrow and Moongirl in The Darkest Evening of the Year by Dean Koontz. Moongirl is maniacal and loves to hurt people, Harrow will do anything to remain her lover, no matter how crazy.
You get the point. And, for my dollar, the most memorable antagonists are the ones who know it.

HConn

03-22-2009, 10:04 AM

Chris Huff

03-22-2009, 10:11 AM

I came across this one recently:

At a prestigious writing conference filled with attendees, the speaker stood at the podium and asked, "Who wants to be a professional writer?"

Everyone in the audience raised a hand.

"Then why aren't you at home writing?"

euclid

03-22-2009, 01:57 PM

Chris, I'm not sure I understood what you were saying in your post. My book is about a Nazi in 1940's Germany who grows to appreciate the evil around him and eventually joins the German Resistance. In this case, the evil is all around my protagonist, like a backprop. The readers know it (from their history) and even if they don't, the story shows it as it progresses. I suppose it is really easy for me to portray evil in this scenario. Of course there are many nasty Nazi individuals in there as well, and I've tried not to portray them as caricatures. Are you sounding warning bells that I should be aware of?

There are quite a few mustachios in the book, btw, mostly for comic effect.

euclid

03-22-2009, 02:09 PM

POV Question for Jim:

I have been reading up on POV. It's quite a confusing maze. My current WIP is a short story about two hobos. It is written mostly in third person from the POV of one of the characters, BUT, it opens with the following (omniscient viewpoint) paragraph:

One night in November two homeless men slept under cardboard in the shallow doorway of an abandoned store. This part of Tenth Street, in the shadow of JFK Stadium, is a desolate area populated by garbage cans and dumpsters, and seldom frequented by the Hoboken city police or street cleaning crews.

Is it okay to start omniscient and then switch POV? It feels okay to me, but am I breaking some unbreakable writers' ordinance?

Also, I need to switch back to omniscient POV near the end of the story.

smsarber

03-22-2009, 03:58 PM

Whoa, deja vu!

James D. Macdonald

03-22-2009, 07:53 PM

That's more-or-less an establishing shot.

I'd replace "populated by" with "filled with", and I'd replace "frequented" with "visited."

Is one of those men sleeping under cardboard a viewpoint character?

(There are no unbreakable writers' ordinances, other than, perhaps "thou shalt be entertaining.")

euclid

03-22-2009, 08:34 PM

That's more-or-less an establishing shot.

I'd replace "populated by" with "filled with", and I'd replace "frequented" with "visited."

DONE

Is one of those men sleeping under cardboard a viewpoint character?

YES: The taller of the two. Why?

(There are no unbreakable writers' ordinances, other than, perhaps "thou shalt be entertaining.")

Thanks Jim.

James D. Macdonald

03-22-2009, 08:44 PM

I'm not entirely sure you aren't in that character's POV. I mean, he's aware of his location, isn't he?

How is a "shallow doorway" different from a "doorway"?

"Dumpster" is a trademark, and should be capitalized.

(Was changing tense deliberate?)

euclid

03-22-2009, 09:08 PM

I'm not entirely sure you aren't in that character's POV. I mean, he's aware of his location, isn't he?

He would be if he was awake, but he is asleep.

How is a "shallow doorway" different from a "doorway"?

Causes cold feet, since they protrude onto the sidewalk. No other reason. They are not comfortable.

"Dumpster" is a trademark, and should be capitalized.

Good point. Is there a generic term for these?

(Was changing tense deliberate?)

Yes. I mean to say that this is still the case now. If I use the past tense it suggests that the area has been cleaned up since.

(The story ends with a murder, when omniscient POV will be required again.)

euclid

03-22-2009, 09:52 PM

Thanks for the heads-up, Steve. Must have been a computer glitch a computer glitch. I never do the same thing twice. :):)

euclid

03-22-2009, 09:59 PM

Something weird happened there. Steve sent me a rep point, pointing out that I had posted the same thing twice. I corrected the error, but when I returned to my user CP, Steve's rep point had vanished. Is it possible to remove/delete a rep point after it has been sent? Very odd.

smsarber

03-22-2009, 10:16 PM

That is weird! I guess if you delete a post somebody repped you for the point goes along with it. Now I know how to get rid of negative points!;)

euclid

03-22-2009, 11:43 PM

Do you have any negative rep points? I don't believe it.

smsarber

03-23-2009, 12:02 AM

Do you have any negative rep points? I don't believe it.
Not in a while. But Uncle Jim can tell you, I was quite a hot-head when I first came here. Classic "I know exactly what I'm doing, none of you understand me" personality. Luckily for me the good people here at Absolute Write put up with me, gave me a chance to realize there was much to be gained by listening to the other members here. There is a fountain of knowledge in these threads, not just this one, but all over this site. I still occassionally need to be reminded, cuz my superior smart-alec attitude pops out here and there, but I can honestly say I have grown a lot, and learned a lot from this website. And not just with writing. For one thing, learning to take criticism has helped me with my patience in everyday life. Call it a cop-out if you want, but when I got sober I didn't know how to be a human anymore. I spent most of the last few years I was drinking intoxicated 24 hours a day. I passed out drunk and woke up that way. I should get my wife to write a post explaining just how much of a difference and improvement of quality of life I've undergone in the last two years. Of course it's not all due to this site, but alot of it is. Writing is very personal, and I'm defensive by nature anyway. So the things I've learned have been so important. I hope some newbies might read this post and see that the community here is so much more than just a place to discuss writing. If you let it, it can help in other areas of life.

Okay, I'll get off the soapbox now. I just want to say I'm grateful for everyone here- Thanks!

FOTSGreg

03-23-2009, 12:20 AM

In regards to evil characters, the nature of evil, villains, and my WIP (pushing ahead on 7th & final draft - Deadline is 4/25/09 for completion), in my case the character in question isn;t aware that he's evil. He thinks he and his group tried to do a good thing. He genuinely likes the protagonist and what he's doing for the field both of them are involved with.

Unfortunately, he's not alone, and professional jealousy alone will soon drive him fully into the arms of the protagonists mortal enemies where he will learn to hate, or at least despise, the protagonist and everthing he does.

I'm obviously still developing the character in my mind, it may require some rewrites, especially on a chapter that's always bothered me (it's a little to "pat" a situation and development), and I'm trying to figure out how to involve this character with another character who turns out to be a mole and traitor to the protagonist late in the book (I think it's as simple as a the protagonist stumbling across the two in meeting or for the mole to introduce the other character to the protagonist during a "visit" to the lab(s)).

Either is an easy insert, provides a basis for the later scene(s) involving the mole, and serves as a foreshadow of things to come.

Chris Grey

03-23-2009, 01:15 AM

Well, it depends on how morality works in your universe. In the real world, unless and until someone manages to isolate the evil genome or capture and distill a vial of pure evil, the whole "good/evil" thing is really just a matter of say-so. I really want to avoid Godwin's Law here, but... most of history's villains have a lot of people following them. Those followers either believe they're in the right or, at worst, don't believe they're in the wrong. If someone is doing something they believe to be wrong, why? Are they following their own moral compass, which just happens to point opposite society's? Are they doing some act of evil which they believe to be for the greater good? If they're doing something that both they and society agree to be morally reprehensible, why? A call for help or something else?

People generally either have no conscience (sociopathy) or do have a conscience, however misguided. People are lazy and are going to follow the path of least ethical resistance-- nobody's going to intentionally do something that makes their stomach turn-- unless they have a very strong motivation to go upstream.

So, at least to me, someone's either psychologically simple and believes in what they're doing, or they're psychologically complex and they know what they should do but they're doing something else. Simple evil just isn't believable.

smsarber

03-23-2009, 02:34 AM

Can you say narrow-minded? I knew that you could.

batgirl

03-23-2009, 02:35 AM

Just a thought regarding the earlier question of whether a racist character needs a comeuppance to show that racism is bad.
If the harm of his racism is shown, say, how it silences or hurts another character, wouldn't that indicate that the author is not validating the racist character's views? It doesn't need to be played up particularly, it could just be an exchange in the midst of the conversation, or someone's quick reaction to his words.
-Barbara

euclid

03-23-2009, 01:16 PM

Hmmm.

It seems to me your last post presupposes some sort of axiom about societal conventions and the common good, Chris ("swimming upstream"). Not everyone accepts these concepts. I believe that is why we have police forces, prisons and (in some places) capital punishment.

A drug baron, for example, may be quite happy to put all (or some) of society's conventions to one side in the pursuit of mammon. I imagine his personal goals are dominated by the compulsion to make money at (almost) any cost.

In my book, the followers of you-know-who turned a blind eye rather than question the morality of their situation.

What about Godwin's second law: "Given enough time, every discussion will eventually gravitate to a mention of Fritzl."

I suppose that individual acted in the absence of conscience (?).

Thanks for pointing out Godwin's Law, btw.

Perle_Rare

03-24-2009, 12:17 AM

jbryson

03-24-2009, 01:03 AM

For example, I've been avoiding the use of constructs like "her mother was angry" because my character can't know but only assume this is the emotion felt by her mother. So instead, I'm using "her mother appeared angry" or "her mother was obviously angry". Is there another solution which would not involve abusing such words as "obvious", "appeared", "seemed" throughout the book?

Under those circumstances, a real person would know her mother was angry. You knew when your mother was angry, right? So, "Her mother was angry."

If "The stranger seemed puzzled," that would be right, when the POV isn't sure. But if she knows something, go ahead and say it.

Calliopenjo

03-24-2009, 01:26 AM

Uncle Jim,

I'm writing in 3rd person from one character's POV. As such, my main character can only observe people around her and deduce how she thinks they're reacting to events.

For example, I've been avoiding the use of constructs like "her mother was angry" because my character can't know but only assume this is the emotion felt by her mother. So instead, I'm using "her mother appeared angry" or "her mother was obviously angry".

Is there another solution which would not involve abusing such words as "obvious", "appeared", "seemed" throughout the book?

One way around that might be to "show" the anger. Ex: She heard the yelling, saw the bulging red eyes and tight jaw line. Those hands that hit any solid surface they were over that got louder and louder they more they hit.
And let the reader come to the conclusion she's angry.

FOTSGreg

03-24-2009, 01:39 AM

Chris, The antagonist character makes 2 chapter appearances in a 44-chapter book although that might change. Due to the POV, I am seriously constrained to not reveal any of the character's thoughts, actions, or attitudes as he is not the focus character and the POV is as tight as I can make it on the protagonist.

The focus might widen out a bit in the next book so I can show certain motivations and characteristics of the "bad guys", but they don't think they're bad guys at all. They firmly hold to the belief that what they tried to do was right and morally responsible (right up until and to the point where someone within their organization gives the order to try to kill the protagonist and sends out the hit team). They believe they simply did not anticipate all the consequences and made a scientific mistake. Mistakes happen all the time in science, especially important scientific research so they think they can fix the problem and are working to do so (another antagonist character makes this statement to the protagonist about third or halfway through the book).

I'm just thinking that, since this particular antgonistic character is so well-positioned, has wormed his way into the protagonist's confidence, and is fairly powerful and respected in his own right, he might be perfectly positioned to become a very powerful and perhaps, morally ambiguous, main antagonist towards the protagonist, in subtle and non-obvious (until he has to become obvious) ways.

Yeah, I am doing a little brainstorming here too and using this forum and you folks to help me clarify my thoughts before diving back into my current rewrite.

Thanks! (?)

Neversage

03-24-2009, 08:45 PM

Uncle Jim,

I'm writing in 3rd person from one character's POV. As such, my main character can only observe people around her and deduce how she thinks they're reacting to events.

For example, I've been avoiding the use of constructs like "her mother was angry" because my character can't know but only assume this is the emotion felt by her mother. So instead, I'm using "her mother appeared angry" or "her mother was obviously angry".

Is there another solution which would not involve abusing such words as "obvious", "appeared", "seemed" throughout the book?

Try showing instead of telling.

Her mother stormed in, hands planted on her hips.

This makes it clear to the reader that her mother is angry, without having to just say to.

Edit: Apparently my browser cached the page from yesterday, and I didn't see the other responses that were made.

Perle_Rare

03-24-2009, 08:51 PM

Try showing instead of telling.

Her mother stormed in, hands planted on her hips.

This makes it clear to the reader that her mother is angry, without having to just say so.

Ah... *lightbulb flashes on* Thanks! I think that's exactly what I needed to hear.

I just can't figure why I didn't think of that myself... *blush*

HConn

03-25-2009, 09:44 AM

For example, I've been avoiding the use of constructs like "her mother was angry" because my character can't know but only assume this is the emotion felt by her mother. So instead, I'm using "her mother appeared angry" or "her mother was obviously angry".

I'm not Uncle Jim, but...

John LeCarre's books often contain "He seemed pleased," or "She appeared to be interested," which suits the story because he's writing about spies. No one can trust that what they're seeing is authentic.

My point: if you're going to have the POV character constantly stating that characters "seem to be" something or are "obviously" something else, the reader will pick up on POV's unwillingness to state forthrightly what they're seeing.

It's a choice.

Neversage

03-25-2009, 08:00 PM

So I got up two hours early this morning to BIC, and I discovered that I have a much harder time writing in the morning than the evening.

Before I changed jobs, I was doing IT support for a car dealership on a schedule of 4 10s. This meant that I was there for a good 2 hours after most people had gone home, just to provide coverage. I got most of my first draft done during this time, and all of the backstory. It was easy and enjoyable; the words just flowed. In the morning, however, it takes an effort to get any words out. I feel like my quality is much less. If I had my druthers, I'd write for two hours from 5-7 in a deserted office building.

The problem is I have too much noise, or things going on in the evening, and I can't stay in the office, because my family would never see me. So which do I do? Learn to write in the morning, or learn to write amidst distraction? Are there techniques for either?

James D. Macdonald

03-25-2009, 08:42 PM

Once you've formed a habit around your writing it's hard to break. This includes time of day, lucky hat, and sharpening three #2 pencils before you get started.

(That's one reason you shouldn't associate bad habits with writing -- if you smoke while writing you won't be able to quit smoking without quitting writing.)

smsarber

03-25-2009, 08:45 PM

I'm still trying to find my optimum time. I used to write between midnite and maybe four in the morning, on and off while I took care of other household tasks. My severe back problems proclude me from sitting at the desk for more than fifteen minutes to a half-hour at a time. Then I trained myself to sleep at night and get up when I shuffled my son off to school in the morning. After fifteen years plus of being a nite-owl it's quite a change. But I find morning writing harder because it's harder for me to get the fog out of my head. What a conundrum.

Neversage

03-25-2009, 10:07 PM

Loretta

03-25-2009, 10:23 PM

The only habits I have associated with writing are silence, solitude, and pacing as I talk to myself. It seriously helps if I know I'm the only person in the room, and the adjacent rooms are all empty. Hopefully I can make this work.

Do any of you write a bunch on one day, and a little less on others? I'm hesitant to do that.

I think my list of habits is a little more extensive-LOL-there is the silence, but it's punctuated with a lot of sighing, and periodically swearing:) The solitude is my companion also, and I'm an extrovert, so you can imagine what that does to me. I do sometimes go out to a cafe' or something similar and write when I can't bear the aloneness (is that a word?) anymore. And yes, I get up and move around, talking to myself, or on occassion hand-waving. (Sounds like fun hum?)LOL (I try to avoid the windows when I do this, so no one can watch all these gyrations. And it's another yes, to I wait until I'm home alone to do all this.

I can understand the hesitation of writing more on one day, less on another. But, my life has thrown me so many curve balls that I have to be able to adapt to that also... otherwise, I'd stop and never start again. I "do" prefer that I be able to concentrate for several days in a row though, because of the sense of accomplishment and the continuation of flow.

k, that's my reply, possible typo's and all!:)

Neversage

03-25-2009, 11:16 PM

That's a good perspective. I suppose what really matters is: am I putting forth the effort and getting words on paper? I'll be a little more flexible, and see if I keep moving my drafts forward. Thanks for all your help.

Perle_Rare

03-25-2009, 11:17 PM

Life is keeping me much too busy to carve out a slice of day and just write. Each day is different. So instead of worrying about whether it's possible write more one day and potentially less the next or whether it's all done in the same say within the same environment, I've trained myself to use every available moment. If I didn't, I wouldn't get anything written at all.

The kids have a trampoline class? I'm there with my laptop. I'm at the dealership waiting for my winter tires to be taken off? I'm there with my laptop. Whichever slice of time in whichever environment, it's all the same to me.

The only time I am incapable of writing is when the kids are playing on their computers right beside me. Their chatter overlaying the game music drives me batty. Before I had my laptop, I would plug in the headphones and listen to some music so I could filter out their noise and concentrate on the writing. Now, I just take the laptop to a different room and write there.

euclid

03-26-2009, 02:28 AM

Perle_Rare

03-26-2009, 06:08 AM

Is this conficker for real? A lot of these internet threats turn out to be practical jokes - especially if they occur on April 1.

I plan to backup my WIP and switch off my modem for at least 24 hours that day, just to be safe. I have the full protection package from McAfee. Not sure what more I can do.

Thanks for the heads-up, Jim.

Euclid, go read the Wikipedia entry about Conficker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conficker). The worm is spreading right now. It simply starts looking for what bad things it should be doing to your computer on that date. Turning off your modem on that date will not save you unless you turn it off forever.

Anyway, the Wikipedia entry has some info on how you can protect yourself. Take a look. I've also put in an entry under the Tech Help forum for Calliopenjo who was asking about this.

And if Microsoft makes a public bounty offer of US$250,000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the criminal / criminals behind conficker, you better believe it's real.

But what I'm wondering is, where, oh where, did Uncle Jim give a heads-up about this? What did I miss?

smsarber

03-26-2009, 07:06 AM

But what I'm wondering is, where, oh where, did Uncle Jim give a heads-up about this? What did I miss?
In his signature.

pictopedia

03-26-2009, 09:28 AM

Biologically, they says: plan in he evening, execute in the morning. Maybe we have adapted to this routine also because of 2000 years of no light at night forcing people to sit still in the evening and think. For the writing, I would say ideally one would create structures and outlines in the evening, and do the actual writing in the morning. I'm always a different person at night and my strategy now is to let that inner evening person do what he's good at: see far and wide and feel and understand a lot. But he's terrible at getting stuff done. His viewpoint is too high, like that of a general. He knows too much as to be useful for digging a trench. In the mornings I switch to being a front line soldier with energy and little ability to see the big picture, which makes me just numb and dumb enough to not question the reason of the fight and run away but to stay and push the cause forward, trusting in the generals orders (and hoping he's not insane)

James D. Macdonald

03-26-2009, 04:43 PM

This tool (http://www.bdtools.net/) removes all versions of Conficker.

pictopedia

03-27-2009, 02:37 PM

This tool (http://www.apple.com) removes all versions of worry.

James D. Macdonald

03-27-2009, 04:11 PM

This tool (http://www.apple.com) removes all versions of worry.

Yeah, I had a Mac once. Most expensive computer I ever bought. It spent most of its life in a repair shop, and when it died for good I didn't replace it with a Mac. I'll never buy another Apple product.

There is Apple malware, by the way. It's just that because it isn't a very popular platform, not many malware makers concentrate on it.

allenparker

03-27-2009, 05:22 PM

Yeah, I had a Mac once. Most expensive computer I ever bought. It spent most of its life in a repair shop, and when it died for good I didn't replace it with a Mac. I'll never buy another Apple product.

There is Apple malware, by the way. It's just that because it isn't a very popular platform, not many malware makers concentrate on it.

My son has a Mac. He needs it for his film work. I would never own one. I could not be convinced they are any better than the cheapest PC laptop.

The machine cost $4000 dollars, plus software. He has had it a year and two months. 3 logic board failures. Two DVD burners. $900 in rentals while the machine was being repaired.

And the best news? It is in the shop today. They believe the logic board is bad and they plan to fix the DVD burner that NEVER worked from the previous replacement.

Hi! Men in Customer Relations. Told you I would tell everyone.
(BTW the relation they are talking about does deal with a sexual nature.)

pictopedia

03-27-2009, 05:43 PM

Hm, well that's not really true with the cost. (I'm correcting Jim (edit: and allenparker), now that's fresh). But it's also true. They all produce in China, and it all costs the same. PCs just market the parts differently. You pay less and you get less, while being told you get more, of course (Marketing). A technical comparison reveals the trick.

Marketing is really a kind of storytelling, like writing. It's novelwriting in disguise. The story is a lie just the same, but marketing people are magicians of the dark kind. They not only perform the trick of selling a fake story that rings true with human truths, but they simultaneously make themselves and the stage disappear, so you don't even understand the act setup any more and you forget that you are in a theater. There is some hellish kind of psychology involved in marketing making everyone, including me, think things that actually reveal themselves as not being true, when looked at closely.

I find it annoyingly important for my mental health to check and state the facts, to exercise my free will muscle. That's why I'm objecting here to the cost and virus thing (In17 years of daily Mac use I have jet to see my first Mac virus). But another thing is more interesting. You said you had lots of problems with your Mac. That happens rarely with creative. A writer and problems with a Mac? That is strange. You got my writers curiosity sparked there.

allenparker: just trying to easy the bad feeling with a shot of reality (I know this never works, but let me try nevertheless): Even including the 900 $, your son saved money compard to PC. A flower is a flower and a fact is a fact.

James D. Macdonald

03-27-2009, 08:14 PM

You're trying to tell me that $1,149 really isn't more than I'd paid for any other computer? Wow.

Actually, it is. And half that again on repairs over the course of two years before it became a permanent paperweight. Logic boards? Oh, yes. What eventually died that I decided not to replace was the screen. Did I mention the three-hour each way drive to get to the nearest "Genius Bar"?

No thanks, never again. Reality is what I can measure.

smsarber

03-27-2009, 08:44 PM

I paid just over $700 for my Compaq desktop. It's easy to work with, and when I crashed my motherboard HP sent out the container to ship it back, and I had my computer returned to me in two days good as new.

I have (nearly) unlimited space to store and backup my documents, if I could only get the damn thing to make my coffee for me I'd be set. Now back to writing.;)

allenparker

03-27-2009, 09:14 PM

H

I find it annoyingly important for my mental health to check and state the facts, to exercise my free will muscle. That's why I'm objecting here to the cost and virus thing (In17 years of daily Mac use I have jet to see my first Mac virus). But another thing is more interesting. You said you had lots of problems with your Mac. That happens rarely with creative. A writer and problems with a Mac? That is strange. You got my writers curiosity sparked there.

allenparker: just trying to easy the bad feeling with a shot of reality (I know this never works, but let me try nevertheless): Even including the 900 $, your son saved money compard to PC. A flower is a flower and a fact is a fact.

Well, perhaps you should visit the Mac Store and ask for a FinalCut Pro Macbook Pro series. The student cost through Virginia Commonwealth University sits at $4750.00 right now. Add the Final Cut Pro software at a cost of $1299.00 and the cost zooms over $6000.00. Now, do you want the extras like the ability to stream to a 30" display monitor? Or how about being able to port cameras into the system via other than firewire?

Now you are over $7,000.00

Don;t take my word for it. Go to Mac. Click on the Macbook Pro and add the extras and watch that minimum $2.799.00 cruise on up.

http://store.apple.com/us

Neversage

03-27-2009, 10:00 PM

For what it's worth, I really like my iPod.

But I like my PC--that cost me half the cost of a PowerMac of equal ability to build--better.

Still... I really do like my iPod.

Chris Huff

03-27-2009, 10:29 PM

That's too bad about your negative Mac experience. Yeah, they do cost more than most other computers, but the flip side is the lack of malware and typically never-fail aspect.

I've had Windows-based PCs since I can remember, and half the time I've had 'em, they're up on blocks. Whether it's viruses, replacing some beaten component, or constant need for upgrades... I hate PCs.

Uncle Jim, the very reason you won't buy a Mac is why I won't buy another PC. The damn machine is just supposed to work, I shouldn't have to spend a chunk of my time either fixing it or having it fixed. I've had two Macs in the last few years, one laptop and one desktop, and neither has ever needed a single repair or reinstall due to viruses. One is nearly a year old and the other is nearly three years old. No failures of any kind.

Again, sorry that you had a really bad experience with 'em, and for whatever it's worth, your experience is quite atypical.

Neversage

03-27-2009, 10:37 PM

I look at it like cars. Every Ford me or my family has ever owned was a hunk of junk. Every Dodge has had problems too. Every Chevy was fine. I have friends who tell the same story, but the names are switched around. Just find what works for you and do it. With material things, we can afford to be that dismissive.

IdiotsRUs

03-27-2009, 10:38 PM

My PC is almost never out of action. In fours years it's had one fried HD ( cost £40, out of action two hours) and a dodgy fan ( twenty minutes, and a resolution to clean the dust out of the intakes every once in a while :D)

Whereas my brother's MAC breaks down at least once a month.

herdon

03-27-2009, 11:42 PM

Any computer will break down -- Mac, PC, or otherwise. Also, speaking as someone who's been in one side and out the other of the computer industry, computers break down more when in the hands of someone that doesn't quite know how to use one.

My personal favorite all time think it's the best ever computer: Alpha. We had an Alpha server back in 1999 that ran our database and that thing was the most solid, sweetest piece of hardware I ever had the pleasure to query. Of course, including the rackmount drives, the thing cost around $80k. But it was still pretty sweet ;)

Calliopenjo

03-28-2009, 12:49 AM

Perle_Rare

03-28-2009, 02:04 AM

Hi Uncle Jim,

Off topic question. When changing POVs in a story does the different POV need to be in italics or would a lead in be better to let the reader know that a change in viewpoint is coming up?

Uncle Jim likely has a better answer but this is what I've been doing:

I keep the same POV throughout a scene. If I change the POV, I do so for a new scene and I start that scene with that POV person.

For example, scene 1 is from Martin's POV so the first line of that scene might be:

"The shadows were snaking along the ground when Martin stepped past the gate and entered the cemetery. Blah, blah, blah."

Now, a scene with Alison as POV character. I start the new scene talking about Alison:

"Alison ran home as if a vampire was chasing her. Blah, blah, blah."

No italics required and the reader knows immediately whose POV he's seeing the world from.

smsarber

03-28-2009, 02:18 AM

Also, just like different sections in a chapter, use the "numeric symbol" divider.
#
Then you start your new POV and the reader can know what's going on. That's not to say you couldn't use italics, or to say that I'm even right. It's just my opinion.

Calliopenjo

03-28-2009, 02:18 AM

I have one chapter that the POV changes because the original POV is no longer relevant.

James D. Macdonald

03-28-2009, 02:40 AM

pictopedia

03-28-2009, 10:16 AM

Just an example of modern Marketing storytelling in action: Microsoft has a current spot out showing a young, insecure woman who pretends to be an independent thinker, trying to get a 17" laptop for under 1000 $. After not finding a Mac for that price, she buys a PC Laptop for 800$. End of spot. If you go online and check the specs of that model, you'll quickly find the 1000 $ worth of parts she thought she got but is actually missing. The funniest being the 17" monitor that only displays the amount of a 15 inch monitor (old hardware, lower resolution) There go about 400$ she thought she saved but actually overspent for nothing, just with that. You have to admire the cleverness of the character building and the storytelling in that and all the other spots that makes customers defend the Mac/PC cost myth with such conviction against all facts.

But even if you live with the low quality and direct your eye to the saved money for condolence, if you work as a freelancer and take 30$/hour, estimating standard PC maintenance, you'll use up the "saved" 1000$ in 32 hours or about 2h/week=4 months. So after only 4 months, you spent exactly as much as for a Mac, only that there is a computer on your desk with old technology that additionally already lost half of its market value.

So,based on hard facts, and the shared reality that 1+1 equals 2, Macs are, financially the overall better buy. That makes every "expensive Mac" story really deal with something of greater importance than money. A pattern, a theme. Some underlying emotional something. A strange occurrence of repeating bad luck. A proof of expensive Macs it is not. But maybe the beginning of an interesting story.

Vegetables

03-28-2009, 10:39 AM

Hi!

I'm slowly making my way through the six years of posts in this thread and, as a young amateur writer I'm finding this VERY helpful. Thanks so much for spending so much time on this! I'm really enjoying it.

James D. Macdonald

03-28-2009, 02:18 PM

Macs are, financially the overall better buy.

I wouldn't take another Mac as a gift. If you work as a freelancer you can't afford the repairs and the time the thing is off in the shop.

pictopedia

03-28-2009, 04:04 PM

Interesting. All right Jim. I'll drop the uncle and go along with your story. Substracts a little illusion and adds a little illusion to my reality. 1-1=0. System back to neutral and rebooting. 3..2...1....

smsarber

03-28-2009, 07:59 PM

Never had to pay a dollar to upgrade, update, or repair my PC. As stated earlier, they replaced the motherboard in two days under warranty. I'm learning about computers on this computer. So lets see, $700 (the dollar sign goes in front), a year old, one problem which cost me no money= PC.
A computer I couldn't afford that I would have less-than-no-clue how to use= Mac.

1+1=2: PC is the way to go for most discerning people.

But Pic, you stick with what works for you. Just be prepared- from what I've read, when something DOES go wrong it's gonna be a hassle.

#

Now for something related to writing novels:

How does everybody break the bonds of writer's block? I usually write something out of my usual comfort zone. I want to see what some other methods are.

Neversage

03-28-2009, 09:18 PM

smsarber

03-28-2009, 09:32 PM

To work around blocks (I'm still of my own opinions on those in general) I skip ahead to later int he book, or the sequel, and write a scene I'm looking forward to. I may never use it, and will certainly change it, but it helps me get back into the fun of telling the story.
Now that's interesting... I never thought of going to "sequel-status," I have gone to later in the book, however. It does help.

James D. Macdonald

03-28-2009, 09:38 PM

I've already mentioned mine: Just type "Suddenly, without warning, a naked woman screamed," and continue from there.

Neversage

03-28-2009, 09:56 PM

Uncle Jim, I love that. I recently had my protag engage in a steamy makeout session, with a supporting character, in the middle of the road; to shake my thoughts up. Only then did I realize that he has a thing for her. Now the plot is far more interesting.

smsarber

03-28-2009, 10:41 PM

I've already mentioned mine: Just type "Suddenly, without warning, a naked woman screamed," and continue from there.
And that one still tops my list of favorite lines;)!

IdiotsRUs

03-28-2009, 11:41 PM

Naked woman, check. Actually, make it a naked man. With baby oil. That should get my writing going again!

But even if you live with the low quality and direct your eye to the saved money for condolence, if you work as a freelancer and take 30$/hour, estimating standard PC maintenance, you'll use up the "saved" 1000$ in 32 hours or about 2h/week=4 months. So after only 4 months, you spent exactly as much as for a Mac, only that there is a computer on your desk with old technology that additionally already lost half of its market value.

Huh? Spending almost nil on maintenance / repairs, and I use my PC at least six hours a day ( OK, £40 for new HD and £15 pa for virus checker) makes it more expensive than the Mac that was several hundred pounds more expensive to buy? Within four months? Try within four years, if ever ( not including maintenance / repair expenditures for MACs when they break down)

Sorry, does not compute.

Judg

03-29-2009, 07:12 AM

At this rate we're going to have to ask the mods to move this thread to the tech forum...

DamaNegra

03-29-2009, 07:17 AM

Yeah, the old PC vs. Mac debate is getting old. PC rock, Macs suck, it's a fact (because I say so and that makes it a fact ;)) so there. Mac fans: Don't kill me!

Back to your regularly scheduled writing thread...

pictopedia

03-29-2009, 08:37 AM

I'd like to ask everyone about something that's been bugging me some time about point of view: 1st person versus 3rd person. When you think about the books you like: is there one you prefer?

I find it harder as a reader to feel for or identify with the main character at the beginning of a book when a book starts with "One day I did..." in contrast to "One day he/she did...." With 1st person I sometimes feel like the Siamese twin to the mc, stuck inside his head and way too close for comfort at a time where I don't care or the mc just jet.

Do you feel that way too? Or do you think that 1rst and 3d make no difference? I'm asking because I am shortly before my first rewrite and am torn between making it 1st or 3rd. Can see good point for either one, but as a new writer, I want to take the safest road and not kick myself out of the game with unlucky style choices.

herdon

03-29-2009, 09:36 AM

While we are on the subject, most people overpay for the hardware they use whether it is PC or Mac. Many people don't need more than a netbook, and that will be all the more true in the next few years as cloud computing takes off.

Unless you want to (1) play games or (2) have a very specific need that requires the power (high end graphics, SQL server, etc.), you won't need a PC or a Mac. Just a $200 netbook with Linux.

As for what has the better quality, it's quite silly to even compare PC vs Mac. The PC is an open platform. You can have extremely high quality or extremely low quality. A Mac is a closed platform. You don't have much choice in the matter. So the real answer is that a PC is both lower quality and higher quality than a Mac. ;)

smsarber

03-29-2009, 09:42 AM

There are reasons and places for both, but I wouldn't focus on "taking the safest road." In my opinion, neither is necessarily safer than the other anyway. But you have to go with what serves the story best. I find crime dramas to be best suited in first person, with third-person veiwpoints from secondary characters. Horror I personally like best in third person. YA in third. In many ways I find first person harder to write, and that may be why my first WIP is giving me stomach ulcers. It's going to get whipped into shape, though. My other WIP is horror, and in more of a comfort zone because of the genre, and it is in third person. Even when I'm stuck I just find it easier to get something out to advance it.

Just my humble opinion, and I've only been writing for about three years, give or take a few months.

pictopedia

03-29-2009, 11:03 AM

Sorry, said that wrong. It's not about the fear of having to travel the road, it's about getting reeelay far on it and realising I should've taken another exit. "God, no I could be miles from here already. I could be almost there. Now I have to go BACK". That kind of feeling.

It's not fear. It's impatience. Although... impatience is a fear of loosing time...hm....

DamaNegra

03-29-2009, 11:29 AM

Personally, I like 3rd person better, because 1st person needs a truly unique voice that is always harder to pull off. With sufficient skill, it does work, but most times it doesn't.

But obviously it depends on what kind of story you're writing. It'd be good to know that.

RobJ

03-29-2009, 12:12 PM

pictopedia

03-29-2009, 12:54 PM

Hm, yes DamaNegra, I thought so, too.

Everyone, what's the count on your favourite books: more 1st person or more 3rd person???????

triceretops

03-29-2009, 12:59 PM

3rd, for reading and writing -- out of habit and out of advice. But that's just me. I might revert to 1rst for some type of a Robinson Crusoe story, and in fact, did so once and pulled it off. But I'm pretty well dialed into large scope and canvas, multiple POVs and layered plots.

Tri

Scribhneoir

03-30-2009, 12:45 AM

Everyone, what's the count on your favourite books: more 1st person or more 3rd person???????

As a reader I'm fine with either POV, but my favorites skew towards first person. I think this is more a factor of genre than anything else, though, since mysteries are my first love and mysteries tend to be written in first more often than third.

Loretta

03-30-2009, 12:51 AM

I generally read third person, but, I've noticed with the Twilight series (which I thought I'd try and wound up hooked on:) that it's first person throughout. I don't think I would be comfortable writing that way (but then again I've never tried it.)
I generally read Thriller's or Mysteries and some are first person, some are third... but again, I think I'm more comfortable with third.

blacbird

03-30-2009, 12:55 AM

I am equally adept at writing atrociously in either POV.

caw

bohica

03-30-2009, 12:56 AM

I'm also fine with either POV. It's more jarring when a first-person POV character does something that doesn't make sense, or that I would never do, compared to a third-person POV character.

FOTSGreg

03-30-2009, 12:58 AM

I'm currently wading through Glen Cook's Garret, PI series and it's all (so far) 1st person, but the POV is so focused that you really don;t see anything outside of the character's viewpoint. You are basically inside his mind or reading his diary which is a very tightly focused POV.

In my own work I generally use 3rd person POV since it's easier, but am currently working on a 1st person short for the horror forum (deadline April 2 and I'm way behind - Haggis & Cranky are going to hunt me down and do bad things to me). My novel (7th draft almost done, also under a self-imposed deadline of April 25-26) was written in 3rd person originally, but had major POV shifts which required much fixing (I think I've fine-tuned it just about as much as I can, but there are things I want to go back and add in now as shadowing).

TTCleveland

03-30-2009, 01:00 AM

I am equally adept at writing atrociously in either POV.

caw

Truly a gift. :P

3rd person limited for my tastes.

smsarber

03-30-2009, 01:23 AM

I'm also fine with either POV. It's more jarring when a first-person POV character does something that doesn't make sense, or that I would never do, compared to a third-person POV character.

;)So if the MC murders his mother it's more jarring in 1st?:poke:

Neversage

03-30-2009, 04:08 AM

First vs Third for me is all about how the story would be best told. Third person has more options by far, but sometimes you want the closed point of view, and intimacy with the narrator that First person provides.

Harry Potter would have been distracting and odd in First person, but Interview With the Vampire would have had much less "meaning" for me were the majority not narrated in First person.

maestrowork

03-30-2009, 04:43 AM

Whatever is best for the story. I can't imagine Lord of the Rings written in first person, and I can't imagine Fight Club in 3rd.

I have quite a few 1st person novels on my nightstand right now (at last count, about 6 or 7, including best-sellers such as The Time Traveler's Wife, The Kite Runner...) I think it also depends on the genres, too. TTTW is done in a diary format from two different characters' pov, and TKR is a personal story. So first person works out very well with them.

James D. Macdonald

03-30-2009, 05:29 AM

Don't worry about making wrong choices in your writing. You'll be re-writing the book a couple of times at least before you're done. I've written books in first person that were third person by the submission draft, and vice versa.

Judg

03-30-2009, 06:07 AM

lexxi

03-30-2009, 08:07 PM

I agree with what others have already said. Which point of view a writer has chosen to tell the story from has no effect on my enjoyment of the book as a reader. That will depend on many other factors instead, including how strong and interesting a narrative voice the author has developed, regardless of whether it's first person or third.

I've also used both approaches myself, depending on the kind of story and the number of viewpoint characters.

RJK

03-30-2009, 08:42 PM

When I first began reading for pleasure, most of the stories were in 3rd. I got used to that POV and when I came across a 1st POV book, it seemed strange to me. I actually put the first few down without finishing them because I had so much trouble getting interested in the story.
After a while, I found some good detective novels that were written in first person. That got me over my prejudice. I still favor 3rd, but have nothing against 1st person novels.

DamaNegra

03-30-2009, 10:22 PM

I'm actually thinking of alternating between 1st and 3rd person POVs in my current WIP... It needs to be something extremely personal for the MC, but at the same time, much, much grander in scale than he is. Hmm...

smsarber

03-30-2009, 10:51 PM

James Patterson (or whichever member of his writing team actually writes whichever current book) does that well. Esp. in the Alex Cross series and Women's Murder Club series.

TTCleveland

03-30-2009, 11:11 PM

It's much easier to create a unique voice in first person. Much easier to zoom out in third person. Which one would be of more use for your story?

I have no personal preference, although a well-done first person is a particular treat. If I dislike the character, it's that much more off-putting.

I agree all around. First person does give that extra character depth. It can be done with third person, but is a little more difficult. A big problem with first person is that it is really easy to annoy the reader if the character isn't good. Third person does give a little bit of a buffer depending on how it goes.

I suppose both have their ups and downs.

maestrowork

03-30-2009, 11:17 PM

They are all tools, and as writers, we need to learn all our tools in our toolbox so we can choose the right ones for our projects.

If you've never written first person, second person, 3rd person, omniscient, etc. you should go ahead and do it. What's a better way to learn? Besides, practice makes perfect.

smsarber

03-30-2009, 11:36 PM

smsarber

03-30-2009, 11:41 PM

*I still don't fully understand 2nd person POV. I'd like to learn one day.*

But here's a line from Patricia Cornwell Trace:

"How you folks today?" the pimply-faced young man in a uniform asks as he rolls in the cart.

Now, the "real-time" way this book is written in made it impossible for me to read. I don't know why, but it gave me a headache. It would be fine if it were just parts of it, but the whole damn book, even the narrative sequences, are in present format.

So what are the advantages to writing in this mode?

cwfgal

03-31-2009, 12:00 AM

maestrowork

03-31-2009, 12:38 AM

1st person -- the readers are going along on the ride with the narrator

2nd person -- the readers are put in the hot seat... they ARE the character

It takes a little getting used to -- and certainly not everyone's cup of tea -- because most people don't "put themselves" in a character. But when it works, it can be very intimate and outright weirdly personal. I mean, if the narrator writes, "You just snorted a whole bag of cocaine and feels like your head is going to burst" -- it's strangely affecting.