Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[Diamond Lil]

The YA novels I've read recently are usually 1st person POV, so internal dialog is part of the narrative. I've seen italicization and caps used to highlight a narrator's feelings (like OMG HE IS SO CUTE).

'cause you know, during those teen years, it's all about teh big dramaz:).

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

God it's good to be able to come back here. Anyway, somebody on another group I belong to asked about song lyrics. Formatting and copyright laws. How are song lyrics formatted and even with only a line or two of a song will it infringe on copyright laws?

[James D. Macdonald]

Song lyrics are formatted like any other poetry.

And yes, you need permission to quote them. Even one or two lines.

[Melenka]

Providing the song isn't in the public domain. I use several traditional songs in one of my novels. Considering no one actually knows who wrote them, I think I'm okay doing that. Or am I terribly misguided?

[triceretops]

Just be very careful. Search out the songwriter or copyright owner thoroughly. I had to get permission to use three lines of Sinatra's Luck be a Lady, and even then, they wanted to charge me $50 for usage. And, they'll likely ask you the projected print-run of the publication using them. I image that is because it costs more if it appears more.

Tri

[James D. Macdonald]

Public Domain is public domain, and you can use it at liberty.

Be very certain that the work is public domain, though.

There was sorrow, there were trans-Atlantic phone calls, there were unexpected payments for rights, when a recent book that involved retellings of traditional ballads turned out to contain a retelling of a ballad that wasn't traditional -- that was recently composed, copyright registered, and had a living author. All's well that ends well and so forth, and the author of the ballad was genuinely sweet and understanding, but things could have been very sticky indeed.

[djf881]

You can name check a song without getting the rights:

"He put 'Sympathy for the Devil' on the stereo, took his pants off, and did another bump."

If it's a song that's going to be familiar to a good chunk of your audience, the title is probably enough to evoke whatever you need.

and you can probably use a line or two, such as:

"After Laura had her skydiving accident, I understood for the first time what Justin Timberlake must have been thinking when he sang 'ain't no lie, Baby, bye-bye-bye.'"

If you're going to slide whole lyrics into the text, you're going to need the rights. But you really need to be questioning whether using two or three pages to replicate somebody else's song lyric is a good use of your space.

[IceCreamEmpress]

and you can probably use a line or two, such as:

"After Laura had her skydiving accident, I understood for the first time what Justin Timberlake must have been thinking when he sang 'ain't no lie, Baby, bye-bye-bye.'"


Actually, you can't do that without permission. US copyright laws and their enforcement are different for song lyrics than for other intellectual property.

See the second letter and its response on Neil Gaiman's blog (http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2005/06/fathers-day-thoughts.asp) for one very successful, very savvy writer's experience with this.

[djf881]

Actually, you can't do that without permission. US copyright laws and their enforcement are different for song lyrics than for other intellectual property.

See the second letter and its response on Neil Gaiman's blog (http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2005/06/fathers-day-thoughts.asp) for one very successful, very savvy writer's experience with this.

Not really.

It may very well be the prerogative of publishers to pay a licensing fee to content owners for any reference to a copyrighted work, and $150 is pretty cheap to avoid a fight, but that doesn't mean that seven words from a song lyric is copyright infringement.

Gaiman did, after all, reproduce the lyric on his blog; and likely did not pay the demanded $800 to do it, nor did the rightsholder pursue him. If it were infringing in the text, it would be infringing on the blog, which Gaiman uses to promote his commercially available works.

For a writer, a don't-rock-the-boat policy among publishers might as well be the law, as far as affecting decisions about how to use this stuff. But it isn't actually the law.

I took a class in art law, where we looked at the boundary between appropriation and infringement where existing works are referenced in new works.

I remember that lifting a sample from one song and putting it into another song is an appropriation that requires compensation, but quoting a song lyric isn't really the same thing. It's more a reference than a derivative work, and it likely falls outside the rightsholder's control.

You have to understand this is a political issue; content owners have a strong pecuniary interest in an expansive view of copyright, and since publishers are content owners, they have little interest in advocating a different construction of copyright.

Authors and other artists have an interest in protecting and exploiting their own copyrights, but at the same time, to the extent that other media represent a significant part of the world and culture an artist may be depicting or commenting upon, restrictions on use of or reference to mass culture tends to dampen speech and art.

Unfortunately, content aggregation is prevailing at the expense of art; all of modern culture is owned, and nothing lapses into the public domain anymore.

Content owners would demand a royalty payment for people singing in the shower if they could figure out how to collect it. Just because they say you owe them money for use of the phrase "We'll be making love" doesn't mean it's true.

[IceCreamEmpress]

It may very well be the prerogative of publishers to pay a licensing fee to content owners for any reference to a copyrighted work, and $150 is pretty cheap to avoid a fight, but that doesn't mean that seven words from a song lyric is copyright infringement.

You may very well be right in your interpretation of the law; I am not a lawyer myself.

But I am a writer, and the state of play currently is that no publisher in the US will back you up on it--they will insist that you either pay whatever is asked for permissions on song lyrics, or that you edit them out.

Which was what I meant by "enforcement", though obviously that was a poor choice of word when what I really meant was industry practice.

[Seif]

Hey all,

I would like to ask a question related to the use of song lyrics and the legal stuff associated with this practice.

What is permissible and what is not permissible with regards to translated song lyrics?

To explain: my book contains samples of Hindi songs which I (and I alone, though I would think that the translations are fairly common) have translated. Would I still need to contact the copyright owner/s?

Thanks,

[James D. Macdonald]

Seif, that's a question to ask your editor.

Your book probably won't stand or fall on one or two lines.

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

While we're on the subject of songs in stories, I've got another question about that. My MC sings a few verses of I've Been Workin' On the Railroad. In my search to find the creator, I've only been able to find out that it is an American Folk Song. Do I need to continue my search to find the creator to ask for permission? Or is just so popular and mainstreamed and become a part of our daily lives, of sorts, do I keep it in and not worry about it?

[djf881]

Uncle Jim,

While we're on the subject of songs in stories, I've got another question about that. My MC sings a few verses of I've Been Workin' On the Railroad. In my search to find the creator, I've only been able to find out that it is an American Folk Song. Do I need to continue my search to find the creator to ask for permission? Or is just so popular and mainstreamed and become a part of our daily lives, of sorts, do I keep it in and not worry about it?

Copyright is a limited commercial monopoly. After a period, the copyright lapses and the content moves into the public domain. Recently, extensions of the copyright period have prevented anything from entering the public domain, but copyright extends only to the 1920s.

This song is public domain and it's fine to use.

[RJK]

subject change (to move this thread up):
What is the purpose for agents to advertise that they are 'Actively seeking new authors' but tell you in their rejection letters, that they are too busy with their current inventory of clients.

[smsarber]

To keep us chomping at the bit. To give motivation.
Think about it, if your manuscript is very good, an agent is going to drop everything for you (in a manner of speaking, and they are always looking for good new talent). But if your manuscript is very poor, well, what would you rather hear, "You writing style is akin to nails being raked down a chalkboard, recorded, and played back at 189 decibels in a four foot by four foot concrete bunker," or, "I apologize, Sir/Madame, but I am very busy with other clients at this time."

[James D. Macdonald]

subject change (to move this thread up):
What is the purpose for agents to advertise that they are 'Actively seeking new authors' but tell you in their rejection letters, that they are too busy with their current inventory of clients.

Do not engage in rejectomancy.

Anything that isn't "Yes" is "No," and all Noes are equivalent.

[smsarber]

:Shrug:a no is a no, is a no, is a no. Just work harder, and be relentless in the pursuit of your dreams!:)

[RJK]

If my MS is not up to the agent's standards, I would rather know that, than be strung along with an 'if only' platitude. This is a business not grade school where we're all afraid to make johnny feel bad.

[James D. Macdonald]

I seriously recommend that you read Slushkiller (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html).

Back to songs for a moment:

I've seldom seen song lyrics used in a novel where the novel wouldn't have been improved by not using them.

[smsarber]

If my MS is not up to the agent's standards, I would rather know that, than be strung along with an 'if only' platitude. This is a business not grade school where we're all afraid to make johnny feel bad.
Do I sense some hostility here? An agent is not your critiquer, nor your mentor. If they don't like something they are required to do no more than say thanks but no thanks. They certainly don't have time to hold your hand and walk you through the process.

*usual disclaimer, as seen below, applies.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

When mentioning the titles of newspaper articles how are they portrayed?

A) MacArthur Clan Declares Bankruptcy
B) MacArthur Clan Declares Bankruptcy
C) "MacArthur Clan Declares Bankruptcy"
D) None of the above, and if this is case, could you give me an example?

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi Uncle Jim,

When mentioning the titles of newspaper articles how are they portrayed?

A) MacArthur Clan Declares Bankruptcy
B) MacArthur Clan Declares Bankruptcy
C) "MacArthur Clan Declares Bankruptcy"
D) None of the above, and if this is case, could you give me an example?


D. MacArthur Clan Declares Bankruptcy

Capitalize the first letters of all words, except articles (the, a, an), prepositions (e.g. into, in, by), and coordinating conjunctions (and, or). Regardless of part of speech, the first and last words of the headline are always capitalized.

Regardless of what you do, the copyeditor will mark the headlines to the publisher's house style. (More likely than not they'll set it in small caps.) If you can get your word processor to double-underline, that's how you indicate small caps.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks Uncle Jim

[James D. Macdonald]

And, as always, the guidelines of the publisher or agent you're submitting to trump any other advice you may get.

[RJK]

@ smsarber - I'm not asking anyone to hold my hand. Perhaps I'm being naive in asking that the agent not say one thing when he means another. A simple "No thanks" or "Not for me" works fine.

@ Uncle Jim - Read it. I'm familiar with rejections and take them in stride. I started this subject to move the thread up to the first page.

[smsarber]

If my MS is not up to the agent's standards, I would rather know that, than be strung along with an 'if only' platitude.


Sorry, that line just sounded like, "Tell me how to do this."

[veinglory]

The thing is that agents and editors who are specific tend to get stalked and abused for 'getting it wrong'. I have watched more than one small press start out trying to give informative rejections, but retreat into positive tone form-ephemisms for reasons of self-protection.

[HConn]

@ smsarber - I'm not asking anyone to hold my hand. Perhaps I'm being naive in asking that the agent not say one thing when he means another. A simple "No thanks" or "Not for me" works fine.

"No thanks," might work very for you, but it often doesn't work for the agent. "Too busy with my current clients" may be a white lie (if it is a lie in this case--I'm talking generally here) but it's one designed to discourage followup emails, letters and phone calls from persistent wannabes who won't take "Not for me" for an answer. Maybe it's annoying, but it's one of the ways agents manage their workload, and you can thank the kooks and the special snowflakes for making it necessary.

[Yeshanu]

"No thanks," might work very for you, but it often doesn't work for the agent. "Too busy with my current clients" may be a white lie (if it is a lie in this case--I'm talking generally here) but it's one designed to discourage followup emails, letters and phone calls from persistent wannabes who won't take "Not for me" for an answer. Maybe it's annoying, but it's one of the ways agents manage their workload, and you can thank the kooks and the special snowflakes for making it necessary.

It's not all "kooks and special snowflakes" who are persistent, though I'm sure that agents get more than their share of them.

If an agent turned me down by saying "not for me" or some other phrase that indicated I could, by changing my prose, land that agent, and if I really wanted that particular agent to rep me, I'd try and find out more specific reasons for the rejection.

But if an agent says "I'm too busy with my current clients to rep you," or some such, I'd move on.

When I first read the original post, though, my thought was that while agents may have a full plate with existing clients, to come right out and say they're not actively seeking new clients at the moment might mean turning away the next Big One, and busy or not, no agent wants to do that. So they leave the door open a crack, just in case.

[blacbird]

If an agent turned me down by saying "not for me" or some other phrase that indicated I could, by changing my prose, land that agent, and if I really wanted that particular agent to rep me, I'd try and find out more specific reasons for the rejection.

"Not for me" is one of the most common stock rejection phrases. It emphatically does not indicate that you could, with changes, "land that agent". It simply says, "No."

caw

[James D. Macdonald]

"Not for me" means "write a new, better, and different book."

[blacbird]

"Not for me" means "write a new, better, and different book."

. . . and query the current one to somebody else.

caw

[IceCreamEmpress]

. . . and query the current one to somebody else.

caw


Yes, this. Probably 9 out of 10 first-time authors got a "not for me" from someone before they found the agent (or publisher) whom it was actually for.

[HConn]

If an agent turned me down by saying "not for me" or some other phrase that indicated I could, by changing my prose, land that agent, and if I really wanted that particular agent to rep me, I'd try and find out more specific reasons for the rejection.

I recommend that you not do that. Seriously. Don't.

[smsarber]

I recommend that you not do that. Seriously. Don't.
Yeah, can you say "Black-balled"?

[semilargeintestine]

I think this would work for the novel I'm working on now. Part of it takes place in present day and part takes place in the past. The historical entries are presented as diary entries, letters, and other documents, so having a different font for those makes perfect sense.

P.S. I *adore* Death in the Terry Pratchett books. I don't find his all caps annoying at all, but probably because he's so funny.

Kelly

Read Chuck Palahniuk's Lullaby. He does pretty much the same thing putting the present events in italics before (I'm fairly certain it is before rather than after) the chapter really begins with the past tense.

[HConn]

Yeah, can you say "Black-balled"?

Maybe not black-balled, exactly. Trying to get the agent to give you more specific reasons for a rejection is unwise, but I expect you need to reach levels closer to this idiot (http://theswivet.blogspot.com/2008/05/lessons-in-how-to-never-get-agent-part.html) before anyone would expend the energy to black-ball you.

[smsarber]

Yeah, I was being a bit over-the-top, but it would be a reputation you probably wouldn't want to acquire.

[James D. Macdonald]

First rule of fiction writing: Be interesting.

[Perle_Rare]

Maybe not black-balled, exactly. Trying to get the agent to give you more specific reasons for a rejection is unwise, but I expect you need to reach levels closer to this idiot (http://theswivet.blogspot.com/2008/05/lessons-in-how-to-never-get-agent-part.html) before anyone would expend the energy to black-ball you.

Neat! I went to university with somebody whose only method of handling rejection or ideas that went against his personal opinions was to flame the source. Needless to say, his university career was rather short... :D

Coincidentally, I later met a wonderful guy with the exact same name who attended the same university after the first one had "left". He had no end of grief trying to prove he wasn't in any way, shape or form, related to the pyromaniac.

All this to say, I'd hate to be a totally different writer trying to make it in a world where a previous person of the same name has flamed all the agents and publishers...

[James D. Macdonald]

All this to say, I'd hate to be a totally different writer trying to make it in a world where a previous person of the same name has flamed all the agents and publishers...

There's an awful lot of that going around.

Don't do like this writer, (http://mroctober.livejournal.com/366570.html)who suggested that the editor kill himself, then came back to suggest that the editor kill his cat....


Not the Dale Carnegie-approved way of winning friends and influencing people.

[Perle_Rare]

Don't do like this writer, (http://mroctober.livejournal.com/366570.html)who suggested that the editor kill himself, then came back to suggest that the editor kill his cat....

Scary...

[smsarber]

Aw, I thought Mr. Reardon was charming... or was that nauseating?!

[SirOtter]

Ya'll think Reardon was bad, check out Nickolaus Pacione's antics some time via Google. Thankfully, he seems to be receiving treatment at the moment, but before then he spent the better part of a decade going waaaaaay beyond anything Reardon did above.

I got a few nasty e-mails after rejecting stories submitted to Futures when I was mystery editor there in 2003-2004, but not many. The worst did get entered into my little black book, and passed on to other editors I knew at the time. As Harlan Ellison once noted, when you piss someone off it's not just what they'll do to you that you need to worry about; it's what they will forevermore refuse to do for you that will really screw you up.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Ya'll think Reardon was bad, check out Nickolaus Pacione's antics some time via Google. Thankfully, he seems to be receiving treatment at the moment, but before then he spent the better part of a decade going waaaaaay beyond anything Reardon did above.



Ditto this! He was joined another site I'm on awhile back, and you wouldn't believe the shit he tried to stir up. Glad he's getting help.

[Nathan]

Although repetition seems to be frowned upon in our works, I must join the ranks of those who have raised a virtual glass in thanks to Uncle Jim and oh-so-many other collaborators for this fabulous discussion. I stumbled upon this thread a few weeks ago, linked to from some site I don't recall at the moment. After reading through the entire thing from the start, a self-induced torrent of information, good advice, personality and humor, I feel a little uncomfortable in the eerily quiet trickle of a thread I am now absorbing in real-time. I look forward to continuing to learn from and with you all!

[smsarber]

Welcome Nathan! And don't worry, it's not always this quiet. Give us a good topic to bite into and we can go for weeks!

[Calliopenjo]

You got that right fuzzy bunnikins. ( Sorry Steven, I couldn't resist.) Welcome Nathan. I hope you have as much fun as I do. Absolute Write, especially Uncle Jim's thread, is my addiction.

[euclid]

My WIP is written in first person, past tense. I have discovered (thanks to several readers) that I need to put lots of POV thoughts, emotions, observations in the text to place the reader close to the narrator and to fill out the character. I hadn't realised that this was so necessary in first person form. I've done this now, but I found it quite difficult to do.

I have used several different approaches. I have passages with thoughts in past tense:

"He was no friend of mine."

Passages with thought tags:

"I thought, he's an idiot."

or

"It seemed to me that he didn't know what he was doing."

And passages with immediate thoughts in the present tense:

"God in heaven!"

Also, a lot of my MC's thoughts are expressed as questions:

"What if the police catch him before I do?"

My question: Is it okay to use a mixture of forms like this? It looks like a bit of a mish-mash to me.

[smsarber]

You got that right fuzzy bunnikins. ( Sorry Steven, I couldn't resist.) Welcome Nathan. I hope you have as much fun as I do. Absolute Write, especially Uncle Jim's thread, is my addiction.
:rant:Naw, that's ok. I already changed my name today anyway! Check out my MySpace page to see my name of the day!

[James D. Macdonald]

My WIP is written in first person, past tense. I have discovered (thanks to several readers) that I need to put lots of POV thoughts, emotions, observations in the text to place the reader close to the narrator and to fill out the character. I hadn't realised that this was so necessary in first person form. I've done this now, but I found it quite difficult to do.

I have used several different approaches. I have passages with thoughts in past tense:

"He was no friend of mine."

Passages with thought tags:

"I thought, he's an idiot."

or

"It seemed to me that he didn't know what he was doing."

And passages with immediate thoughts in the present tense:

"God in heaven!"

Also, a lot of my MC's thoughts are expressed as questions:

"What if the police catch him before I do?"

My question: Is it okay to use a mixture of forms like this? It looks like a bit of a mish-mash to me.

Any of those could be right in the right place. Sentences don't exist except that they are surrounded by other sentences to make up paragraphs. The paragraphs form scenes. The scenes form chapters.


You can have present tense thoughts in a story written in past tense, the same as you can have present tense dialog. E.g., "Let's go to the store," she said.

You might want to figure out how tlo differentiate thoughts from other dialog. (Many people italicize.)

Be careful with questions in narration: They can give the impression that the author doesn't know either. (The author and the narrator being different.)

You might try rewriting the piece in close-third, then re-rewriting it back into first person.

[euclid]

Any of those could be right in the right place. Sentences don't exist except that they are surrounded by other sentences to make up paragraphs. The paragraphs form scenes. The scenes form chapters.


You can have present tense thoughts in a story written in past tense, the same as you can have present tense dialog. E.g., "Let's go to the store," she said.

You might want to figure out how tlo differentiate thoughts from other dialog. (Many people italicize.)

Be careful with questions in narration: They can give the impression that the author doesn't know either. (The author and the narrator being different.)

You might try rewriting the piece in close-third, then re-rewriting it back into first person.

...for that Jim. I read through it again last night, looking for thoughts with question marks and removed just a couple that I thought were a bit unnecessary and heavy-handed. I think the rest are okay. I rejected the italics idea early on. I don't think I need them. Since the whole thing is written in first person, the thoughts flow nicely in the narration (I think).

Your last suggestion gave me goose pimples (bumps)! I've already completed 11 full edits. I don't think I can take many more!

Thanks again.

[James D. Macdonald]

. I've already completed 11 full edits. I don't think I can take many more!


It may be time to let this one escape and start work on something new.

[euclid]

It may be time to let this one escape and start work on something new.

Yes, I think you're right. I will resume querying in a few days. I sent a few pages out to 2 agents in December: 1 rejection, the other hasn't responded.

It's in really great shape now!

[euclid]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Sorry to bother you again, :flag: but could you explain to me the difference between active and passive constructions? I read people's comments all over the place about this, but I don't understand what they are saying. Maybe you could give me some examples.

Thanks

[prusik]

The words "passive" and "active" get horribly overloaded when talking about writing.

If we're talking about verbs and sentence construction, "active" means the agent of action is the subject of the sentence, and "passive" means the recipient of the action is the subject of the sentence. The agent is relegated to a prepositional phrase, or missing altogether.

Active: I broke the titanium encrusted chafing dish.
Passive: The titanium encrusted chafing dish was broken by me.

Active: I was biting the flying spigot with my canines.
Passive: The flying spigot was bitten by me with my canines.

Copular: He was a swirl of chartreuse and mango.

Don't let people convince you that the mere presence of a linking verb indicates the use of a passive verb form. In English, we use linking verbs for all sorts of things. e.g, the copular, and the progressive verb tenses, as well as passive verb forms.

[euclid]

The words "passive" and "active" get horribly overloaded when talking about writing.

If we're talking about verbs and sentence construction, "active" means the agent of action is the subject of the sentence, and "passive" means the recipient of the action is the subject of the sentence. The agent is relegated to a prepositional phrase, or missing altogether.

Active: I broke the titanium encrusted chafing dish.
Passive: The titanium encrusted chafing dish was broken by me.

Active: I was biting the flying spigot with my canines.
Passive: The flying spigot was bitten by me with my canines.

I was all right as far as here (but what's an agent?)
The next bit threw me completely: :Shrug:

Copular: He was a swirl of chartreuse and mango.

Don't let people convince you that the mere presence of a linking verb indicates the use of a passive verb form. In English, we use linking verbs for all sorts of things. e.g, the copular, and the progressive verb tenses, as well as passive verb forms.

[IdiotsRUs]

Euclid - this thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1969553#post1969553) finally helped me get the hang of it. There are a couple of posts that explain it all nice and simple ( for my simple brain)

[Berry]

I was all right as far as here (but what's an agent?)

Your basic sentence has three things: An action, something that DOES the action, and something the action happens to.

The something that is DOING the action is the agent.

If the agent is the subject of the sentence, then it's active:
Euclid threw the ball.
Euclid is the agent, doing the throwing, and the ball is the object, being thrown. "threw" is the action, or verb. Since the agent is the subject, this is active voice.

If the thing acted upon is the subject, then it's passive:
The ball was thrown by Euclid.
Here the ball is the subject of the sentence, and since it's what the action happened to, we're in passive voice.

I think the point about the "copular" thing is that a common sign of a passive construction is the use of "was" (or "were", etc), but that just seeing "was" doesn't make a sentence passive:

The ball was thrown: passive
The ball was red: active
It's not even just "was" with a verb form:
I was riding my bike: active.

[Dale Emery]

I was all right as far as here (but what's an agent?)

The agent is the person or thing doing the action.

Consider: I broke the titanium encrusted chafing dish. The action is broke. Who did the breaking? I did. So the agent in this sentence is I. And the subject of the sentence is I, so this is an active construction.

Consider: The titanium encrusted chafing dish was broken by me. The action is was broken. Who did the breaking? I did. So the agent is I. But in this sentence, the subject is chafing dish. The subject of the sentence (chafing dish) is not the same as the agent (I), so this is a passive construction.

Consider: The titanium encrusted chafing dish was broken. This time we don't know who or what did the action, but it isn't the chafing dish. So again this is passive.

Dale

[FennelGiraffe]

The next bit threw me completely:

Was is also found in active voice, but many people mistakenly think those constructions are passive, too.

Marvin was hungry.

Here was is a copula (aka linking verb). It links the subject, Marvin, with a state or condition, hungry. There's more to say about copulas, but I'll leave that to another post. Copulas are active voice.

Marvin was eating soup.

Was eating is progressive (aka continuous) aspect. It can be troublesome for a reason I'll leave to another post as well, so it does behoove a second look, but it is NOT passive voice. (Progressive aspect and passive voice can occur together--the soup was being eaten--but they're two separate attributes.)


Key identifying features when Is or Was is present:

Is/Was <adjective> = active voice, copula
Is/Was <noun> = active voice, copula

Is/Was <verb>-ing = active voice, progressive aspect

Is/Was <verb>-ed (including irregular forms) = passive voice

[euclid]

Euclid - this thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1969553#post1969553) finally helped me get the hang of it. There are a couple of posts that explain it all nice and simple ( for my simple brain)


...was read through by me. Still not completely convinced. I think there are sneaky places where passive constructs hide and are not so easy to see. (was that one?)

I printed out the long post by Dawnstorm for further study.

[blacbird]

Key identifying features when Is or Was is present:

Is/Was <adjective> = active voice, copula
Is/Was <noun> = active voice, copula

Is/Was <verb>-ing = active voice, progressive aspect

Is/Was <verb>-ed (including irregular forms) = passive voice

In summary then, it's okay to be active and copulate, but not to be passive.

I think I got it.

caw

[euclid]

:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:

[FennelGiraffe]

In summary then, it's okay to be active and copulate, but not to be passive.

I think I got it.

caw

:tongue

[Shweta]

If the agent is the subject of the sentence, then it's active <cut> If the thing acted upon is the subject, then it's passive

Almost always true! But not so much with experience verbs. "I felt bruised" is active, even though I am not doing anything, I am experiencing something, and in fact something seems to have been done to me!

But you don't have to worry about these cases -- as far as I remember, they're all places where one would never ever try to use a passive (Bruised was felt by me? :D)


...was read through by me. Still not completely convinced. I think there are sneaky places where passive constructs hide and are not so easy to see. (was that one?)

Absolutely true. But the thing is, these are not places where one generally needs to worry about them for writing purposes, only for linguistic-analysis purposes. If you want to be a language geek about them there is all sorts of neat complex stuff. But if you don't in this particular case, you can avoid it easily enough; the simpler explanations are plenty to go on.

[FennelGiraffe]

Almost always true! But not so much with experience verbs. "I felt bruised" is active, even though I am not doing anything, I am experiencing something, and in fact something seems to have been done to me!

But you don't have to worry about these cases -- as far as I remember, they're all places where one would never ever try to use a passive (Bruised was felt by me? :D)

I'm fairly certain "I felt bruised" is a copula. "Bruised" is functioning as an adjective there, not as a verb. All the experience verbs are copulas. Err, most (all?) of them also have a non-copula meaning. "I felt the wall." That's an ordinary transitive(1) verb. It can be made passive: "The wall was felt by me."

(1)Only transitive verbs have a passive voice. No object; no passive voice.

[Dale Emery]

What if I copulate passively?

[Shweta]

I'm fairly certain "I felt bruised" is a copula. "Bruised" is functioning as an adjective there, not as a verb. All the experience verbs are copulas. Err, most (all?) of them also have a non-copula meaning. "I felt the wall." That's an ordinary transitive(1) verb. It can be made passive: "The wall was felt by me."

(1)Only transitive verbs have a passive voice. No object; no passive voice.

Ya, absolutely; feel is the verb, bruised is an adjective. I have been simplifying and leaving things out.

However, I've been doing that for reasons:

1) people who have trouble with this really don't need to try and figure out when an -ed is an adjective and when it's a verb. Because that's yet another damn hard thing.
1b) Therefore in some cases it's not real useful to say that passives only apply to transitive verbs, because figuring out transitivity is not always easy.
2) Copula is used so often as only "to be" that I've found it's best not to complicate matters.
3) Writers who are worried about passive/active distinctions are generally good at working from examples rather than linguistic babble, or it wouldn't be a problem.

Anyway. I might be right or wrong, but that's my motivation :)

[Dawnstorm]

Personally, I wouldn't be sad if a strange sort of amnesia struck this particular rule from our collective memories. There's nothing wrong with the passive voice; it's chief problem is that it's been named by grammarians with little flair for PR. I'll call it the promotive voice from now on, as it promotes the object of a verb or prepostion to subject of a verb. Would you like the promotive voice better than the passive voice?

[Shweta]

Personally, I wouldn't be sad if a strange sort of amnesia struck this particular rule from our collective memories. There's nothing wrong with the passive voice; it's chief problem is that it's been named by grammarians with little flair for PR. I'll call it the promotive voice from now on, as it promotes the object of a verb or prepostion to subject of a verb. Would you like the promotive voice better than the passive voice?
You know, I read this as a what-if for a novel, but I don't think it's one that would sell :D

[euclid]

Personally, I wouldn't be sad if a strange sort of amnesia struck this particular rule from our collective memories. There's nothing wrong with the passive voice; it's chief problem is that it's been named by grammarians with little flair for PR. I'll call it the promotive voice from now on, as it promotes the object of a verb or prepostion to subject of a verb. Would you like the promotive voice better than the passive voice?

A lot of people on AW read my (best) stuff and say: "It's too passive, rewrite those passive constructs and it should be fine." But I can never find the offending constructs!

PS "promotive" is no better than "passive".

[James D. Macdonald]

In practical terms, read lots (and lots and lots) of good literature and the right construction for any given passage should sound right to you.

There are times and places where the passive voice is absolutely the right thing to use.

Be aware that "It sounds too passive" is an easy crit to make, and may not always be correct.

[Dawnstorm]

You know, I read this as a what-if for a novel, but I don't think it's one that would sell :D

PS "promotive" is no better than "passive".

Damn! Another one bites the dust.

***

A lot of people on AW read my (best) stuff and say: "It's too passive, rewrite those passive constructs and it should be fine." But I can never find the offending constructs!

Well, to summarise the confusion: people who talk about "passive voice" on writing boards often explain "the passive voice" (the grammatical concept) but talk about a wider, stylistic concept (a writer's voice which sounds passive). The idea is to maximise content words and minimise function words (which include all auxiliary verbs as well as articles etc.)

I do think that the name "passive voice" is a strong unconscious motor for the prejudice against the construction. Nobody wants to sound passive. It doesn't matter, on the primal level, that the "passive voice" has nothing to do with sounding passive (except in the sense above, in that it requires a "function word", an auxiliary).

[euclid]

Pardon?

[Jake Barnes]

A lot of people on these boards consider any sentence with "was" or "were" in it to be passive. This is not technically correct, but it is correct that there is often a better way to write the sentence.

[Dawnstorm]

Pardon?

What Jake Barnes said, and then some stuff that's not really important.

Never mind me. I complicate stuff, even if I'm trying to keep it simple.

Just remember if the text works and breaks a rule, it's the rule that needs be changed, not the text. People tend to forget that in crit mode.

[FOTSGreg]

Copular, in terms of copulation, can almost never be passive it occurs to me.

In any way that you speak of it, you are an active participant, one way or another.

I was screwing...

I was being screwed...

He screwed...

She was screwed... (oky, maybe this one depending on the circumstances)

etc.

(one of my more lucid moments)

[HConn]

A lot of people on AW read my (best) stuff and say: "It's too passive, rewrite those passive constructs and it should be fine." But I can never find the offending constructs!

Euclid, a quick question: On a sentence and paragraph level, does your story focus more on the doer of the action or the one done to?

[Chris Grey]

A lot of people on AW read my (best) stuff and say: "It's too passive, rewrite those passive constructs and it should be fine." But I can never find the offending constructs!

I think what AWers are trying to tell you is that your story needs more evil golems.

[blacbird]

I complicate stuff, even if I'm trying to keep it simple.

Or, rephrased passively: Stuff is complicated by me, even if keeping it simple is being tried by me.

caw

[Dawnstorm]

Or, rephrased passively: Stuff is complicated by me, even if keeping it simple is being tried by me.

The first clause is allowed to stay, but in the second "it" should be made subject:

"Stuff is complicated, even if it is attempted to be kept simple."

There. Better, no? (The by-phrase was removed as well. That sort of info isn't needed, anyway.)

[smsarber]

Oh, my poor brain!:Headbang:

[euclid]

Euclid, a quick question: On a sentence and paragraph level, does your story focus more on the doer of the action or the one done to?

No way I could even attempt to answer that question. My book (if that what we're taking about) is 106,000 words long...It's written in the first person, so I suppose "I" is the doer of the action throughout. If anything, the words "I, me, my" probably appear too may times!

Did a count. Out of 106,000 words (260 pages single-spaced), the word "I " appears 4,106 times. That's an average of nearly 16 times per page!

[euclid]

The first clause is allowed to stay, but in the second "it" should be made subject:

"Stuff is complicated, even if it is attempted to be kept simple."

There. Better, no? (The by-phrase was removed as well. That sort of info isn't needed, anyway.)

That's not the same thing. What you have here is a general statement about things being complicated. The original version was all about Blacbird's difficulties explaining things.

[euclid]

Dale:

Why did you break that nice titanium encrusted chafing dish?
You ought to be ashamed of yourself! I hope you replaced it - you naughty boy.
What is a chafing dish anyway, and why does it need to be titanium encrusted?
Why do you always introduce new imponderables into my life?

[James D. Macdonald]

A chafing dish is one of those serving dishes with the little alcohol-lamp under it to keep the contents warm.


In today's cool news: Remember "Philologos; or, A Murder in Bistrita" (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1585574&postcount=6358)?

It's been picked up for Year's Best Fantasy (edited by David Hartwell).

I'll let you know when the anthology comes out.

[James D. Macdonald]

I think what AWers are trying to tell you is that your story needs more evil golems.


You must always strike the right balance between dinosaurs and sodomy.

[RJK]

Let me put your mind at ease, or perhaps, add to the confusion. Passive does not equal bad. In many cases, the sentence needs to be phrased passively. In today's politically correct climate, it is better NOT to point the finger at an individual, so passively phrasing your sentence (instead of Sam broke the copier, you write the copier was broken.)
In police/mysteries/etc., the perpetrator is unknown, so many of the sentences are written passively (We use Sam was killed. Rather than: The copy machine repairman killed Sam.) We don't know it was the repairman yet.

[euclid]

Why would the copier repairman kill Sam? Sam never hurt a fly, didn't have an enemy in the world. Did the repairman even fix the copier?

[James D. Macdonald]

"That was the first thing we noticed," Dalmatia said. "The copy-machine was broken."

"Broken? How?"

"The cover-glass was cracked. And when we opened the front cover, we found a photocopy of someone's bum jammed in the fuser."

"That would have been before you found Fred's body."

"Yes. He was hidden behind the coffee cart. We didn't find him until mid-morning. Everyone thought at first it was odd that he hadn't come in. Then ... the look on his face. Horrible."

"I understand," Lieutentant VanDelven said, writing in his notebook. "Do you have any idea whose butt it is?"

"No. Not really. We thought at first that it might be Fred's -- he was always such a joker. And the phone directory on his desk was open to 'Xerox Repair.' But then ... Sandy noticed that the butt was ... female."

"I see," VanDelven said. He looked around the office. No less than fifteen females were within easy view. His next question would need to be asked very tactfully....

[euclid]

That's Fred and Sam. This copier repairman is a serial killer!

[smsarber]

I'd have to disgree: A serial killer is a person who murders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder) usually three or more people[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer#cite_note-0) over a period of more than 30 days with a "cooling off" period between each murder, whose motivation for killing is largely based on psychological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abnormal_psychology) gratification.

(Excerpt from Wikipedia, not the most accurate source for facts, but I have always heard the same thing, so the copier repairman needs to knock of Steve, and maybe Suzie, also. You know, for that all important "serial" status!)

[euclid]

Watch this space, Steve!

[smsarber]

You're right; I do have a copier- better use judgement if I ever need to call a repairman!! I forgot to add that he better go after Suzie after a few months have passed, otherwise he'll only be able to plead temporary psychosis.;)

[James D. Macdonald]

"Sam" is short for "Samantha," and it is her (cute and bouncy) butt that was Xeroxed.

(Note the passive construction.)


Fred's secret was that he was a transvestite: his given name was Winnifred. That won't be the only surprise the autopsy reveals....

One of Lieutenant VanDelven's most baffling cases has only begun!

[semilargeintestine]

If Winnifred was a woman and identified as a man, subsequently getting an operation or at least passing as a man, he is transsexual. The term transvestite refers to individuals who wear the clothing of the opposite sex, but most often not for gender identity reasons. Statistically, most transvestites are straight men.

Hooray for killing the fun with details.

[smsarber]

I guess I'm in the clear then, I am not transsexual, I do not dress in women's clothing- except at my wife's request, of course, nor do I plan to start in the near future. So this serial killer won't have any interest in me. But now is were Uncle Jim points out some overlooked reason the serial killer is a woman, not a man, as inferred by me earlier, so SHE will be after me, after all.

[James D. Macdonald]

Statistically, perhaps.

Fred was by no means a transexual -- she dressed in traditional male clothing and identified herself as a male at work, but was still biologically and physically a female, and kept his daytime life secret from her husband, Jerome. (Jerome called her "Winnie," and as Winnie she enjoyed wearing taffeta frocks.) Having trained as a youth as a quick-change artist, Fred/Winnie was able to keep up her double life for years.)

Incidentally, Fred wasn't murdered. He died of natural causes, if you can call an unfortunate drug interaction between NyQuil and caffeine "natural." Lieutenant VanDelven's investigation is about to take a very strange turn indeed.

From its seemingly mundane beginning in a Filene's Basement Spring White Sale to the startling conclusion on the peak of Denali during a blinding snowstorm, the latest novel in the best-selling VanDelven Investigates (R) mystery series will keep fans of the genre guessing!

[Yeshanu]

It sounds like Fred/Winnie may be MPD, with one personality being male, and one female. Which makes sense, because it was Winne who took the NyQuil, having had a bad cold for the last three days and being unable to sleep, but it was Fred at work (who didn't remember about the NyQuil) who overdosed on the coffee at work.

[FOTSGreg]

New series there for ya', Uncle Jim?

Because if it is, I'd likely go buy it (I like Konrath, James Hamilton, Ed Koch, Sue Grafton, and a few others too).

[euclid]

I'm confused. So did the copier repairman kill Sam(antha), and if so why? Presumably the whole thing was a revenge attack on Wini(Fred) that went horribly wrong.

[smsarber]

Sorry for the sidebar here, but my wife and I just got back from the doctor: It's a girl!:hooray:(due May 13)

[euclid]

Sorry for the sidebar here, but my wife and I just got back from the doctor: It's a girl!:hooray:(due May 13)

DAD.:partyguy:

Is this your first?

[smsarber]

We have a 7 year-old boy named Randy- he's great. He doesn't necessarily want to be a writer, but he loves to make his own books, so who knows?! Maybe he'll follow his father's footsteps. He loves to be read to, and makes up his own stories and games, so he has the creativity and imagination to do it.

And we will stop at two. It is nice we'll have one of each, but we never wanted a big family, small and cozy is fine for us. And my health at 32 is not exactly good (to put things oh-so-mildly), so that has to be a factor in family planning. Thanks for the props, Euclid!

[Chris Grey]

It sounds like Fred/Winnie may be MPD, with one personality being male, and one female. Which makes sense, because it was Winne who took the NyQuil, having had a bad cold for the last three days and being unable to sleep, but it was Fred at work (who didn't remember about the NyQuil) who overdosed on the coffee at work.

Not necessarily. There are many reasons a woman might go undercover as a man.

On that note, congrats on the baby girl! Have you thought of names yet? Winnifred, perhaps?

[smsarber]

Rachel LeeAnn. I wanted Rachel Leigh, my mother-in-law wanted Rachel LeeAnn, so we compromised: the birth certificate will say LeeAnn, but I can call her whatever I want. Thanks, by the way!

[James D. Macdonald]

I was sort-of waiting for something like this to come along. Here (because it's short, and because it's in electronic form so I don't have to retype it), is a contract for a short story reprint.

AN AGREEMENT, dated - concerning a literary WORK
entitled

"Philologos; or a Murder in Bistrita" by Debra Doyle &
James Macdonald

between the EDITORS, who are David G. Hartwell &
Kathryn Cramer, c/o Dragon Press, [address redacted], and Debra Doyle & James
Macdonald, The SELLER, [address redacted]:

1. The Seller hereby licenses and grants to the Editors the
right and permission to publish the Work in an
ANTHOLOGY, provisionally titled Year's Best Fantasy #9, to
be published by Tor.com, a unit of Tom Doherty Associates.
The Seller grants to the Editors non-exclusive world
anthology rights in all languages throughout the world to
use the Work. It is understood that the use of the Work by
the Editors entails world volume rights, both in the English
language and in foreign translations, and in hardcover,
paperback, book club, and reprint editions of the anthology.
It is also understood that the Editors, are licensed to use
the Work only in the Anthology and in reprints of it,
including print and electronic versions, complete or partial,
and that all rights not specifically granted in this
Agreement are reserved to the Seller.

2. The Editors agree to pay $90.00 payable upon final
acceptance of the completed Anthology by Tor.com, a unit
of Tom Doherty Associates. This payment is an advance
against a 50% pro rata share of the Anthology's earnings, if
any, beyond the initial advance, earning to include income
from trade, book club, reprint, translations, electronic
editions, foreign sales of the anthology, or any subsidiary
rights income received by the Editors. All electronic
excerpts will be tracked and any royalty income
apportioned according to authors included. It is anticipated
that batches chosen by the publisher, of three or more
stories, will be offered electronically, but no individual
stories will be offered alone. Fifty percent of the earnings
actually received by the Editors will be distributed to the
Sellers of the stories in the Anthology at least once each
calendar year, as soon as such earnings exceed $20.00 per
story.

3. It is understood that the Anthology will be represented
by Susan Ann Protter, literary agent, and by her or the
Editors' overseas agents, and that the customary agency
fees will be deducted before payments are made to the
Editors.

4a. The Seller warrants that the Seller has the clear title to
the Work or is authorized by the Work's owner to sell the
Work; also that the story contains no libelous material and
is not in violation of any rights of privacy or any other
rights of third persons, and does not violate any existing
common law or statutory copyrights, and agrees to
indemnify and hold harmless the Editors, Tor.com
Publications, and any and all other publishing firms
licensed by the Editors to publish the Anthology, from any
loss, expense (including attorneys fees) or damage
occasioned by any and all disputes and judgements finally
sustained arising from ownership of rights herein granted,
which would constitute a breach of any of the foregoing
warranties.

4b. The Seller warrants that the Work was published for
the first time during the calendar year 2008.

5. The Editors may have the Work translated where
necessary.

6. The Seller agrees that the Editors and Publisher(s) may
use the name and biographical data of the author(s) of the
Work in connection with the exercise of and exploitation of
rights to the Work, and in the advertising or promotion for
the Anthology.

7. The Seller will receive one complimentary copy of the
first edition of the Anthology in which the Work appears.

8. The anthology shall be copyrighted in the name of the
Editors; also a separate copyright notice shall be included
for each story. Please correct notice provided below. If
blank, please provide complete notice. The copyright
notice for this story shall be worded as follows:

____c copyright 2008 by Debra Doyle & James D. Macdonald

__________________________________________________ ________________

9. Payment of the above advance shall be made in US
dollars. If the Seller wishes the Editors to pay all sums due
under this agreement to the Seller's literary agent, please
note the agent's name and address:




ACCEPTED AND AGREED: Please indicate your acceptance
by signing and returning all three copies of this agreement
to David G. Hartwell at [address redacted]. For further information call Kathryn Cramer &
David G. Hartwell at [phone number redacted], or David G. Hartwell
at [phone number redacted]. One copy will be returned to you.


X X
Seller/Agent Editors

SS# or Tax ID#________________________ If the payee is a US
citizen, we must have a SS# or Tax ID# to issue a check.

--
David G. Hartwell [email address redacted]
Senior Editor, Tor Books

[James D. Macdonald]

Found in another thread here: Ways in which stories go wrong. (http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/glimmertrain/mfaletter.pdf)

Novels going wrong. (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200107/myers)

[euclid]

Very good article. What is MFA? I found it in Wikipaedia

And what exactly is "literary fiction"?

And what's a "bonehead" (worn at a halloween party)?

[batgirl]

Terrific article. The point about ideas coming in through the back door only is very helpful - makes me feel better about ideas sneaking in, actually. And I'm sitting here with that thought about 'Stranger Comes to Town' and 'Person Goes on a Trip' being the same story, turning the idea around and looking at it like a pretty rock.

Euclid, here's a link (http://www.conknet.com/~fullerlibrary/ReadersAdvisory/A%20GUIDE%20TO%20LITERARY%20FICTION.htm) that might help. Literary fiction is perhaps most easily described by what it's not. It's not genre, it's not bestsellers, it's not 'escapist'. It's usually more character than plot, and sometimes more description than action.

-Barbara

[ClaudiaGray]

Great links, Uncle Jim.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Silly off topic stupid question time. How are chapters numbered? The reason I ask is because I have Ch. 1 & 1B, Ch. 2 & 2B and then 3, 4. . .until 9 (Chapters 1 & 2 being the only odd chapters). Should I renumber them or do I leave them as is?


:Shrug:

[HConn]

No way I could even attempt to answer that question. My book (if that what we're taking about) is 106,000 words long...It's written in the first person, so I suppose "I" is the doer of the action throughout. If anything, the words "I, me, my" probably appear too may times!

Did a count. Out of 106,000 words (260 pages single-spaced), the word "I " appears 4,106 times. That's an average of nearly 16 times per page!

What I was trying to get at is whether the critiquers might be responding to a protagonist who is done to, rather than does (and the sorts of sentences that would follow from those story choices).

Just something to consider.

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Silly off topic stupid question time. How are chapters numbered?


They're usually numbered 1, 2, 3, but wait until you have a final draft. Number them then.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks Uncle Jim. :Hug2:

[Niamh1882]

For what it's worth, here's my stupid grammar trick:

Go to the bookstore and get yourself a copy of "Learn/Teach Yourself/Absorb Through Osmosis [Language of Your Choice] in [Short Amount of Time]". "Learn Swahili in One Week", "Teach Yourself Latin in Time for the Exam", and "Absorb a Working Knowledge of Japanese Before Your Plane Lands" would all be fine choices. It doesn't particularly matter what language you chose. Choose a book that is focused on reading/writing, not speaking or listening. You don't need a dictionary, or a book of verbs, or anything of the sort because we're not actually interested in learning the language.*

If you've chosen well, you'll have a book full of grammar examples, explained in very small words for people who don't normally deal with grammar. My experience is that learning what the terms mean in the context of a foreign language makes it easier to turn around and examine what you are doing in your own language.**

Also, when trying to make a character sound foreign (either because they're an elf, an alien, or just Canadian) instead of tacking "eh?" to the end of all the character's sentences, mimicking the sentence structure of a non-English language may do the trick for you.

YMMV,
Niamh


*If you are interested in learning whichever language you've chosen, you'll get a lot further by taking a class.
**Full disclosure: I just finished a B.A. in German and Comparative Lit, so comparing English composition to everything else is pretty much how my mind works. Math-minded people may have better results if they take a pen and replace all the non-English words in "Writing Mandarin for Absolute Beginners" with the geometric figures of their choice.

[Judg]

LOL. Seriously, I learned almost all my grammar in foreign language classes. I had old-school grammarians too, so they knew their stuff. I think second-language training is invaluable for a writer on so many different levels.

[Chris Grey]

Niamh's totally write. It's not just that the words for grammar only start to make sense when you learn a second or third language (instead of the preferred way of asking children to memorize what a participle is in the third grade), but that 70% of a grammar is in the unwritten rules. Give any native English speaker the words girl, french, the, four, and they will arrange them as "the four french girls" unless they're being cheeky. As an added bonus, you'd never put "young" anywhere but between "four" and "french," would you? It's a rule that's completely under the surface, but, by being aware that it exists, you can create an air of foreignness by breaking it.

[FennelGiraffe]

Agreed. I never did learn to speak Spanish, German, or French, but they did wonders for my English grammar.

[James D. Macdonald]

I am of the firm opinion that every writer should know at least two languages to the point of being able to think in the second. It definitely expands the way in which you can know the world.

(The Learn Frisian in Fifteen Minutes trick sounds Really Swell, though, and I think I'll steal it.)


Oh -- brief brag on a student: Jean Huets (http://jeanhuets.com/about_me.html) (who attended Viable Paradise a couple of years ago), sold the story she wrote at the workshop to Kaleidotrope.

[RJK]

When I was president of our local school board, at a work session, I asked the administrators and board members to try to punctuate the following (you may have seen this test before):

that that is is that that is not is not that is it is it not

The only person to punctuate it correctly in a reasonable amount of time was the deputy superintendent, who took several years of Latin in high school.

There is more than one way to punctuate the example.

[Scribhneoir]

I am of the firm opinion that every writer should know at least two languages to the point of being able to think in the second. It definitely expands the way in which you can know the world.

Way back in school I had reached the point of being able to think in Spanish, but those days are long gone.

Uncle Jim, can you think in a second language and, if so, which one? Frisian, perhaps? ;)

[smsarber]

I can think in Vulcan. But it doesn't help because I've never seen Star Trek, so I have no point of reference!;)

[Bookdragonette]

I am of the firm opinion that every writer should know at least two languages to the point of being able to think in the second. It definitely expands the way in which you can know the world.
Ha, I always knew being an ESL-er would come in handy some day. :tongue

[James D. Macdonald]

My first language was German. English is my primary language. I'm fluent in Spanish.

And I read music.

[Bookdragonette]

And I read music.I can to the point of being able to sing along in church, despite not knowing the songs. It's fun.

[DamaNegra]

I can think in English and French, as well as my native Spanish (although my French is much more limited) and I'm learning Japanese to the point that I'm able to form some coherent thoughts in that language (though very limited, as well).

Learning all those languages has really helped wonders with my writing and expanding my view of the world. Especially Japanese. If you're going to learn another language to expand your mind, you should definitely try a language that was not born in Europe or anywhere near it (if you're American or European, that is).

[maestrowork]

I am of the firm opinion that every writer should know at least two languages to the point of being able to think in the second. It definitely expands the way in which you can know the world.

Absolutely. My native language is Chinese, although I can speak in Mandarin and Cantonese, so technically I can speak three languages. When I was learning English, my teacher's comment really stuck with me: "You really can't master the language until you THINK in it." Most people I know who are having trouble (even after years studying English, for example) because they still think in their native language, so they're doing instant translation every time they speak English. It really doesn't work that way.

I'm fluent in both Chinese dialects and English. When I speak one language, I think in that language. In fact, I have problems speaking with my parents sometimes because I have to translate some English words to Chinese -- I know EXACTLY what they mean but have trouble translating, because sometimes there really is no equivalence. Same thing happens when I have to translate a Chinese term into English -- it's not easy. Some people asked me: "If you can speak both fluently, why can't you just translate between the two?" I don't really think they understand....


That's why when people ask me if they should write their novel in Spanish or whatever native language first, then translate back to English, my inclination is: NO. It's never the same thing. If you really want to write in English, there's only one way -- write it in English! Think it in English! Dream it in English!

[Judg]

But to be really, really good, you've got to master the body language too. The Gallic shrug, the Teutonic head bob, the Italian flying hands...

[Perle_Rare]

I'm fluent in French (first language) and English. I started learning Spanish and intend to continue as soon as I come up with some spare time. Anybody's got any to spare? :D

I'm also well versed in C, C++, C#, VB, and even Cobol though I don't normally admit to that one. And yes, I also can read music. Does all that count?

[Niamh1882]

I speak English and German, although I need about 15-minutes to switch between them. It's a bit like driving a car: English and German are separate gears and if I try to use them both at once I get stuck in neutral. Simultaneous interpretation is defiantly not part of my skill set.

I've also had one semester of Spanish (while living in Madrid), one and a half semesters of Italian (while living in Rome), and two semesters of reading French (in Texas... which breaks the nice parallel structure I had going there). When confronted with a Romance language I just say the first words I can think of with Latin roots and do a little interpretive dance. It works a lot better than it ought to.

I also had a semester of Biblical Hebrew (which is different from modern Hebrew in that there is no word for computer). That class very nearly broke my brain. Three years later I can remember the alphabet, how to recite the Schema, and how to say "Moses walked as far as the Jordan".

The Learn Old Church Slavonic Quite Quickly, Really trick was thus born out of years of frustrating personal experience plus a term working in the "Writing Assistance Center" at an American university in Spain, which is a whole 'nother story. Use the trick to your heart's content. What are good ideas for if not for stealing sharing?

[Niamh1882]

When I was learning English, my teacher's comment really stuck with me: "You really can't master the language until you THINK in it."

A guideline from one of my early teachers (read: my mother): "You know you're fluent in a language when you can tell a joke in it."

[smsarber]

I know only one language, and I can't read music (used to, but that was twenty years ago. Now I only read tablature. Tab is six lines to represent thestrings of a guitar, with numbers to represent which fret to hold). Does that mean I will always be an inferior writer? Hint: that's a rhetorical question:tongue

[NeuroFizz]

Does American Sign Language count? I'm not fluent by any means, but I find it a totally unique way to communicate. Mrs. Fizzy knows a good bit of it as well, so we can sometimes communicate across a large, noisy room. I can also cuss up a storm when the kids are around.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Does American Sign Language count?

Oh, absolutely. It's a completely different language from English--different grammar, structure, and of course vocabulary.

This is why Deaf writers whose first language is a signed language astonish me so much, because they're always writing in a second language. Watching someone tell a story in ASL makes me wish that there was a written form of it, because its grammar is so sharp, so immediate.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I found this on another site and I was wondering what an NDA is. I think knowing that it would help to understand this comment.

An agent is a good idea, but mention an NDA and they will, at best, have a good laugh. This is not how publishing works. And, despite conspiracy theories, respectable publishers don't steal ideas.

[bpmann]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I found this on another site and I was wondering what an NDA is. I think knowing that it would help to understand this comment.


Non disclosure agreement

Brian

[Calliopenjo]

Thank you

[James D. Macdonald]

You might find an NDA if you were, say, writing the user manual for some proprietary software.

In novels, I've run into NDAs when doing tie-in novels; you've got the whole series bible, including the surprises coming next season, which you aren't supposed to reveal to the fans.

It would help if I knew the context of the comment.

[UPDATE]

Found it. (http://murdockediting.blogspot.com/2009/02/dedicated-to-dave.html)

No, you don't need to have your agent sign a non-disclosure agreement so he/she won't tell publishers your wonderful idea (so they won't steal it). I think I have that right.

I can just imagine the conversation:

SFX: Phone rings

Editor: Hello?

Agent: Hi, this is Hiram Agentguy, how ya doing?

Editor: Hiram! Hey, haven't heard from you in a long time. What's up?

Agent: My client, Joe Author, has this great idea for a book.

Editor: Cool! What is it?

Agent: I'm sorry, I can't tell you.

The thought of asking an agent to sign an NDA just makes my head hurt.

[smsarber]

The thought of asking an agent to sign an NDA just makes my head hurt.
:roll::Ssh:

[smsarber]

Hey UJ, what would it take for you to come down here to Missouri and teach me to keep my butt-in-chair, and my mind focused on the prize? Cuz my friggin' discipline sucks!

[James D. Macdonald]

You aren't allowed to come back to anywhere on the Internet until you've written 250 words of original prose fiction. Now log off and get going.


Hey UJ, what would it take for you to come down here to Missouri and teach me to keep my butt-in-chair, and my mind focused on the prize? Cuz my friggin' discipline sucks!

[TTCleveland]

You aren't allowed to come back to anywhere on the Internet until you've written 250 words of original prose fiction. Now log off and get going.

I realize this was directed at the above poster, but I probably should follow it too...

[smsarber]

Yessir!:flag:Logging off NOW!

[Leigh.Lyons]

I can think in English and French, as well as my native Spanish (although my French is much more limited) and I'm learning Japanese to the point that I'm able to form some coherent thoughts in that language (though very limited, as well).

Ah! Atashi mo nihongo wo chotou hanashimashita yo!!

Sorry, I like finding people who speak Japanese! I'm THIS close to being fluent in Japanese but I couldn't register this semester because I ran out of time in my class schedule.

[David Wisehart]

I'm working on my Italian. I've written a couple of stories set in the Italian Renaissance, and took two research trips to Italy. In the big tourist cities you can get around fine with just English, but I got lost outside Naples, searching for the entrance to Hell (at Lake Avernus), and my smattering of Italian came in handy.

[euclid]

I'm also well versed in C, C++, C#, VB, and even Cobol though I don't normally admit to that one. And yes, I also can read music. Does all that count?

As long as we're blowing our own trumpets, my French is passably good, though not fluent. I have Irish, but it's very rusty (and not very useful). I also speak FORTRAN, ALGOL, PASCAL, DIBOL, COBOL, BASIC, BASIC+, BASIC+2, DOS, VB3 (programming languages) and MOP, MiniMOP, IBM/MVS, UNIX, VAX/VMS (these 5 are operating languages) and several others whose names escape me, e.g. at least 2 operating systems used by DEC's pdp11 series.

Any music I've managed to play has been by ear (couldn't use my fingers)

:)

[smsarber]

Ah! Atashi mo nihongo wo chotou hanashimashita yo!!
Your blue hamster ate a poodle? Mine too!lol

Uncle Jim, got my assignment finished last night. A page + of new material. Thanks for the push.

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, got my assignment finished last night.

Great!

Now do it again.

[Perle_Rare]

... at least 2 operating systems used by DEC's pdp11 series.

"Wow," was about all she could say... wow...
(adapted from "Lilly's Purple Plastic Purse" by Kevin Henkes)

[MiltonPope]

Hello, all. I haven't posted here in quite a while. I've been making enormous progress on my WIP, but now I can't put off the research any longer.

The story involves someone who can see several hundred years into the past, roughly throughout the Mojave Desert and some distance south. I need to learn a lot about North American natives, as well as Mayans and Aztecs. Extinct animals and plants would be interesting too, for color and texture.

I have a stack of National Geographic articles -- about every fourth issue has something I can use. I've raided Wikipedia for, say, Mayans and Apaches, but if the Internet has what I want, the links aren't obvious.

Is there a place you go for this kind of thing? I have the feeling I'm missing something blindingly obvious.

--Milton

[James D. Macdonald]

Is there a place you go for this kind of thing? I have the feeling I'm missing something blindingly obvious.



The Children's Room at your local library.

[smsarber]

Or the community college library. Or can anyone get into those?

[Komnena]

The college libraries are worth looking into. The university here offers community borrower cards with a limit of ten items for two weeks.

[James D. Macdonald]

Seriously, start in the Children's Room. That'll give you and overview (usually with colorful pictures), definitions of terms, and enough background to get you started in the direction you should go. After that you can hit the other library shelves. But start with the kids' books.

[firedrake]

Hello, all. I haven't posted here in quite a while. I've been making enormous progress on my WIP, but now I can't put off the research any longer.

The story involves someone who can see several hundred years into the past, roughly throughout the Mojave Desert and some distance south. I need to learn a lot about North American natives, as well as Mayans and Aztecs. Extinct animals and plants would be interesting too, for color and texture.

I have a stack of National Geographic articles -- about every fourth issue has something I can use. I've raided Wikipedia for, say, Mayans and Apaches, but if the Internet has what I want, the links aren't obvious.

Is there a place you go for this kind of thing? I have the feeling I'm missing something blindingly obvious.

--Milton

The Apaches were relative latecomers to the southwest. For tribes with cultural and trading connections to the Mayans and the Aztecs, you may want to look at the Anasazi and the Hohokam.

Here's a link which may help

http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/onlinebks/hohokam/chap1.htm

[Judg]

I've followed Uncle Jim's advice about the Children's section of the library. Sometimes it's the only place I can find what I want. It's particularly strong for things like overviews of geography and the like.

[smsarber]

And Dr. Seuss books!;)

[Scribhneoir]

Reference librarians are my heroes. Ask one for assistance -- they always have great ideas for finding what you need.

They're also usually willing to go above and beyond the call of duty, like the one who helped me earlier this week by allowing me to use her personal library card to gain access to ProQuest through the Newport Beach library, since I didn't have a card of my own for that system. And this was after she spent an hour or so tracking down for me exactly which libraries in OC (city, county, and university) had what I needed. Then, while I was happily involved with ProQuest, she continued to bring books to me that she felt might be of use.

Reference librarians are wonderful. :Hail:

[MiltonPope]

Thanks, everyone who responded to my research question. I'll check the children's rooms (and online catalogs, once I find out where to look), and the college libraries. And thanks, firedrake for the Hohokam reference.

I'll let you know how this works out.

--Milton

[Chris Grey]

Children's books are not to be underestimated. The higher a book goes in level, the less generally useful it gets. Children's reference books contain a quick and dirty overview of nearly any subject, so you can get a basic idea of whatever you need to know in an afternoon. Take notes. Then work your way up the ages, getting reference books as you go.

Take Norse Mythology. It's really hard to find any explanations of it. You'll find books about it, but not books of it. Then you find that one book that's no more than half an inch thick, with glossy pages and lots of illustrations. A few hours later, you know the story. Then you can go grab that 500-page tome and get the scholarly details and understand them in a way you wouldn't without first knowing the big picture.

Reference books are written with the attention span of their audience in mind. A children's book is meant to impart as much information as possible to someone not like to sit still for more than a few hours. This means you can absorb its information in a few hours.

[James D. Macdonald]

Once you do get to the weighty scholarly tomes, the place to look for story ideas is in the footnotes.

The footnotes are where the learned professors float their crackpot theories, and where they get bitchy about other, equally learned, professors.

You're allowed to use crackpot theories. You aren't writing a scholarly work; you're writing something fun and interesting. Crackpottery is both of those, in spades.

[Sailor Kenshin]

I've followed Uncle Jim's advice about the Children's section of the library. Sometimes it's the only place I can find what I want. It's particularly strong for things like overviews of geography and the like.

I did that all the time! It's just about the only way I can understand anything.

[James D. Macdonald]

Heading to Boskone (http://www.nesfa.org/Boskone/). See you there!

(Readings! Signings! And so much more!)

[Berry]

You're allowed to use crackpot theories. You aren't writing a scholarly work; you're writing something fun and interesting. Crackpottery is both of those, in spades.

No kidding. I once sold a story that had UFOs and zombies in it.

Crackpot theories are wonderful for generating story ideas. Just start thinking "What if they were RIGHT?"

[smsarber]

Hell, these days are there any real crackpot theories anymore? Real life is just as crazy as anything that can be conjured!

[Chris Grey]

Hell, these days are there any real crackpot theories anymore? Real life is just as crazy as anything that can be conjured!

Clearly you've never read Saberhagen.

Also, "these days"? Things were so much crazier in the past.

[smsarber]

Okay, point taken. But with the media we know about the craziness, and the fragility of morality, that encompasses humanity faster, and more accurately than in the past. I get a lot of my story ideas watching Cold Case Files and the news. It just seems to me that people are much sicker than I could make them (my characters) on my own.

[mario_c]

No kidding. I once sold a story that had UFOs and zombies in it.

Double mumbo jumbo! Good work, you made it fly!

Now UFOs VS Zombies...

[Niamh1882]

According to the five-year old I baby sat the other day, aliens are actually a type of monster.

Aliens are also generally friendly in his experience. I don't know where zombies would fall on the sliding scale of friendless/unfriendliness, as I haven't brought it up yet.

I figured I was pushing things already with the leviathan (friendly) and the chimera (unfriendly).

[smsarber]

I had a story idea for zombie gunslingers. I never wrote much on it, not really my genre, but still it would be cool. Jesse and Frank James teaming up with Billy the Kid in a Resident Evil style battle against humans. I won't ever go forward with this, so the idea is up for grabs.;)

[Leigh.Lyons]

Your blue hamster ate a poodle? Mine too!lol

Uncle Jim, got my assignment finished last night. A page + of new material. Thanks for the push.

>.<

I was saying that I speak Japanese too...

[Chris Grey]

Okay, point taken. But with the media we know about the craziness, and the fragility of morality, that encompasses humanity faster, and more accurately than in the past. I get a lot of my story ideas watching Cold Case Files and the news. It just seems to me that people are much sicker than I could make them (my characters) on my own.

Someone once said to write your book in the same room that you burned your television. I'm not an advocate of burning TVs indoors-- waste not, want not-- but I do advocate trading your TV for a library card. There are more things in heaven and earth than dreamt of in your evening news.

A notebook, a pen, and a daylong trip to the library are worth more than cable television and high speed internet.

[smsarber]

Someone once said to write your book in the same room that you burned your television. I'm not an advocate of burning TVs indoors-- waste not, want not-- but I do advocate trading your TV for a library card. There are more things in heaven and earth than dreamt of in your evening news.

A notebook, a pen, and a daylong trip to the library are worth more than cable television and high speed internet.
I think we got off on the wrong foot here, Chris. Hi, my name is Steven Michael Sarber, and I am a writer. I have a larger book collection than dvd collection, and I have over 400 dvds. I guess I know better than to kid around in your presense, you seem to take things a bit too seriously.

Oh, and there is not a single thing wrong with keeping up with the state of the world we live in. Sorry to rain on your parade!

[Chris Grey]

I think we got off on the wrong foot here, Chris. Hi, my name is Steven Michael Sarber, and I am a writer. I have a larger book collection than dvd collection, and I have over 400 dvds. I guess I know better than to kid around in your presense, you seem to take things a bit too seriously.

Oh, and there is not a single thing wrong with keeping up with the state of the world we live in. Sorry to rain on your parade!

I meant no offense.

I only meant to support my earlier statement that despite the moral depravities oft reported by modern entertainment, history holds a rich cache of ideas and depravity from which to draw.

I only worded my post the way I did in response to your signature, which, by your above response, I assume to be outdated:
I seriously need a good tongue lashing to get my BIC!My apologies.

[smsarber]

Now, if you would have said to get my ass in front of the computer, internet off and current document open, and away from the television, I would have gotten that.;) But I don't hold grudges or anything. We're all good.

And you do raise a good point. I have been needing to go to the library to check out some historical books, both non-fiction and fiction. I have an idea for like a gaurdian angel advising Alexander the Great. It would be a young adult book. Anybody know any good fictional accounts of him? I can find the non-fictional reference tomes I need.

And thanks, Chris, you are the first one to ever respond to my BIC sig comment. That's probably another reason I didn't think that was your intention.

[euclid]

Hi Steven,

I think you mean "The ALTAR of Burnt Offering". ALTER is a verb, meaning to change. Although I'm not sure about US spelling. And have you really only got 3 words to go?

:)

[smsarber]

Issue has been dealt with in the share your work section, I just forgot to fix it in my sig. oopsie:tongue But the first draft is finished, three words shy of the goal. It will undoubtedly wind up a thousand or two over in the final draft.

[euclid]

Oh, right.

By the way, Steven, I thought it might be better to change the name of your story "Avoidance of Reflections", and call is just "Reflections". Much punchier.

[smsarber]

Well, it's "reflection," not the plural form, because she has a phobia of mirrors, hence her reflection is the problem. But "Reflection" could certainly work. Titles are very important, as they are the first thing a person will usually see. So catchy, punchy, grabby... all good.

[Komnena]

Mary Renault has a good book about Alexander. Can't remember its title but the ref librarian should be able to find it for you.

[smsarber]

Cool. I'll check on it, thanks!

[PenDragon]

Mary Renault has a good book about Alexander. Can't remember its title but the ref librarian should be able to find it for you.

The Alexander Trilogy . . .

1: Fire from Heaven
2: The Persian Boy
3: Funeral Games

She also wrote a biograpghy called 'The Nature of Alexander.'

[smsarber]

Quick question, are they fictional history, or something of that nature? I may have read her biography of Alexander, if it was out before 1994, because I would have still been in high school. Unfortunately all the years of drinking wiped alot from my memory, so I'm going to check that one out when the libraries open back up tomorrow (today being President's Day, and all that). Thanks for all the help.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

One quick stupid question. What's a hook?

[smsarber]

Hi Uncle Jim,

One quick stupid question. What's a hook?
Something to draw a reader in- to 'hook' them into your story.

[storygirl]

Hi Uncle Jim,

One quick stupid question. What's a hook?
I'm not Uncle Jim, but I've always understood a "hook" to be a strong beginning to a novel, query, essay, script (you get the idea) that captures the readers' attention and compels them to read more. It should make your story instantly interesting to the intended audience.

[PenDragon]

Quick question, are they fictional history, or something of that nature? I may have read her biography of Alexander, if it was out before 1994,

The biog was pubbed a few years before 1994 in 1975! :D The trilogy is historical fiction and a good read.

[James D. Macdonald]

For people in the New York-Boston area (location is Pomfret, CT (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Pomfret%2C%20CT&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl)):

Taught by Leigh Grossman (http://www.swordsmith.com/about.html), faculty member of UConn and author of thirteen books. Evening and weekend sessions with small class sizes and lots of personal attention.

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Saturday, February 21, 2009: 1pm-5pm
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Mondays, beginning February 23, 2009: 7pm-9pm

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introductory session, individual conference, plus 14 two-hour sessions or 7 four-hour sessions - $600

[HConn]

Uncle Jim (and everyone else): How do you feel about downer tragic endings, speaking very generally?

I realize a lot depends on the execution, but do people have any examples of tragic endings that they like?

[smsarber]

Stephen King's Cell

[euclid]

For whom the Bell Tolls by E. Hemmingway

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim (and everyone else): How do you feel about downer tragic endings, speaking very generally?

1) Does it work?

1a) Is it the right ending for this book?
1b) Is it well written?


Speaking very generally.

[Judg]

John LeCarré rarely has a happy ending. Even when the goal is accomplished, there's always a bitter side to the success. Hasn't stopped him from being a perennial bestseller. But you do have to be good to pull it off.

[smsarber]

Since my genre of interest is horror and thriller (and suspense), I am used to what I call "either-way-endings." Like Judg said, the goal may be accomplished, the conflict solved, whatever- but it's still bittersweet. Maybe the MC lives but his son dies, or the bad guys are killed, but the aftermath of their destruction nearly ends life on earth. Like The Stand, you could call it a happy ending (though that would be a bit of a stretch) if you look at it one way, a depressing ending if you look at it from another perspective. Regardless, you have to write the ending you most feel is the right one. I read a book, I believe it was Iris Johannson(?) were the ending wasn't even an ending. The book just stopped. It didn't even feel like the end of the chapter, much less the book.

[euclid]

Cormac McCarthy's "The Road" has an interesting ending. I read it as hopeful; maybe the planet had a future after all. Others I know read it as a totally dismal ending. I can't say any more; might spoil it for someone who hasn't read it.

[oswann]

John Rambo died at the end of First Blood (the book). That could have been a happy end for everyone (except John).

[HConn]

Thanks, folks.

[Perle_Rare]

Happy birthday, Uncle Jim!

[Calliopenjo]

:heart::Cake::kiss::TheWave::PartySmil

Have a Good Day Uncle Jim.

[DamaNegra]

Oh, is it today?

HAPPY B-DAY, UNCLE JIM!!

[Perle_Rare]

Oooops... There's a whole thread dedicated to birthday wishes for Uncle Jim in Office Party. Hadn't seen it till just now...

[James D. Macdonald]

Thanks, all.

[TTCleveland]

Happy B-Day Uncle Jim! :D

[James D. Macdonald]

Good people all, d'ye know what you could do for my birthday? Order a copy of Salt and Silver by my beloved elder daughter, Katherine Juliana.

It's her first novel, and I'm intensely proud of her (for all that she hasn't allowed me to read it, and didn't mention that she'd written it until after it sold.....)

[Bartholomew]

Good people all, d'ye know what you could do for my birthday? Order a copy of Salt and Silver by my beloved elder daughter, Katherine Juliana.

It's her first novel, and I'm intensely proud of her (for all that she hasn't allowed me to read it, and didn't mention that she'd written it until after it sold.....)

Hey, wow. Guess it runs in the family.

[Cassiopeia]

Good people all, d'ye know what you could do for my birthday? Order a copy of Salt and Silver by my beloved elder daughter, Katherine Juliana.

It's her first novel, and I'm intensely proud of her (for all that she hasn't allowed me to read it, and didn't mention that she'd written it until after it sold.....)What a sweet dad you are! And so supportive too even when she left you out of the loop. ;) You must be so proud of her. Congrats to both of you.

[James D. Macdonald]

Impediments aid art. Add restrictions rather than take them away.


Here is a zombie story written on a Twitter: http://cavalaxis.blogspot.com/2009/01/zombie-story-140-characters-at-time.html

The only thing that I'd change is to delete the line It was like watching a bad B movie. Because that would remind the reader that this is a bad B movie. (And has been, and will be. Thus you never have your character say "You sound like the villain in a cheap romance!" lest the readers say, "Y'know, you're right," and seek something other than a cheap romance for their reading pleasure. Nor do you have your scientist/inventor say of her invention, "It sounds like something out of science fiction, but...."

[bpmann]

Hmmm, I wonder if "I know it sounds like a line from a Newberry Award winner, but..." would work. :tongue

[James D. Macdonald]

Hmmm, I wonder if "I know it sounds like a line from a Newberry Award winner, but..." would work. :tongue

No, I don't think so. The characters can not be aware that they're in a work of art.

[Shweta]

No, I don't think so. The characters can not be aware that they're in a work of art.

...Unless it serves the story?

In Pamela Dean's Secret Country trilogy, the well-read kid characters and up falling into another world, and keep trying to figure out how things will work there with "Well in Narnia, no time passes at home..." and such reasoning. And of course, they're wrong every time :)

Part of why that didn't make me, as a reader, more aware that I was reading a book is that -- well! The "kids falling into other world" trope is so established that it would have been weirder if these kids were not aware of it -- and also the series revolves largely around that tension between what's make-believe and what's real.

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

I have a question. Yeah I know. Laugh. Anyway, would it be wrong to write: He yelled across the room "Don't go there!" Or would it be better to write: "Don't go there!" He said looking at Sam across the room. If I've confused you my question is this. Is it just better to use "said?" Instead of declared, yelled, rambled. . .

[Komnena]

Remind me of Salt and Silver again on FRiday.

[DamaNegra]

No, I don't think so. The characters can not be aware that they're in a work of art.

Have you never read El Quijote?

[Chris Grey]

Breaking the fourth wall is one of those things that you can make work, but there are eight and sixty very good reasons not to.

Putting a character into a fictional world (Neverending Story) isn't the same as breaking the fourth wall. "I'm in a story world" is more "I'm an intruder into this story world" and it's worked. "This world seems to behave like Narnia" works as well-- Narnia is part of the literary canon so it's not inconceivable for a story character to refer to it. Characters believing they're the main character in a story isn't too far, either. As in real life, many characters like to imagine themselves as the hero in a fairy tale, as the lead character in some wonderful story, or, if you live in the suburbs, as a cast member in a soap opera. It works when they're wrong-- they may think they're in a story, as long as they don't know it's yours. When your character believes she's in a remake of Pride & Prejudice, she'd best be wrong or your readers won't bother with your remake of Emma.

[James D. Macdonald]

He yelled across the room "Don't go there!" Or would it be better to write: "Don't go there!" He said looking at Sam across the room.

I'd say:

He yelled, "Don't go there!"

or maybe:

"Don't go there," he yelled.

He said looking at Sam across the room is clumsy.

Said-words are a spice.

You wouldn't want your page to read:

"The green ones don't taste any better," Joe advised.

"In your opinion," Sam babbled. He was sorting the green M&Ms into a separate pile.

"Do you have to do that?" Joe commented. "It's crazy." The tic-tic-tic sound of M&Ms landing on the pile was the loudest sound in their apartment. It had been quiet ever since Mandy moved out.

"Crazy? Who are you calling crazy?" Sam emphasized. "I wasn't the one who spent his entire teenage years in the laughing academy."

"My parents had me committed because Dad lost his job and they couldn't afford to keep me," Joe grinned. "There wasn't anything wrong with me."

Tic! An M&M fell off the table and rolled across the floor. Sam watched it go.

"I think I'll call my Mom," Joe expressed after a moment.

"What are you going to call her?" Sam grunted.

"Don't go there," Joe yelled.

[bpmann]

My favorite is still:

"Shut up," I explained.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim
I have a question. Will I get in trouble for mentioning REAL book titles in a story without saying please? Or do I have to say please?

[IceCreamEmpress]

No, I don't think so. The characters can not be aware that they're in a work of art.

Unless that's the point of the whole thing (like a Jasper Fforde novel, or this new "Lost in Austen" (http://www.sliceofscifi.com/2009/02/18/british-lost-in-austen-optioned/) show).

It's either a centerpiece or nothing.

My favorite is still:

"Shut up," I explained.

It's actually

Are you lost daddy I arsked tenderly.

Shut up he explained.

From The Young Immigrunts by Ring Lardner, Jr. (probably actually by Ring Lardner, Sr.--written as a parody of The Young Visiters by Daisy Ashford, which was a hit the previous year.)

[James D. Macdonald]

Titles can't be copyrighted.

Be sure that mentioning the titles is vital to the story; at the same time be sure that people who haven't read those works will still "get" your story.

(Or, not. I recently had a story published in which I had the protagonist reading Grimm's Deutsche Mythologie. Many of my readers would be unfamiliar with this book.)

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks Uncle Jim.

[euclid]

Are you lost daddy I arsked tenderly.

Shut up he explained.

From The Young Immigrunts by Ring Lardner, Jr. (probably actually by Ring Lardner, Sr.--written as a parody of The Young Visiters by Daisy Ashford, which was a hit the previous year.)

Why do you say this was probably by RL Snr.?

Ordered a copy of Daisy Ashford's book from Amazon

[James D. Macdonald]

Free Lessons in Cyberspace for Genre Writers (http://specmysticon.wordpress.com/2009/02/23/free-lessons-in-cyberspace-for-genre-writers/)

A collection of useful links from a speculative mystery writer.

[James D. Macdonald]

The Young Visiters; or, Mr. Salteena's Plan by Daisy Ashford. A novel, from 1919. It went into multiple printings in its first year.

Ms. Ashford was nine years old when she wrote it.

The novel was turned into a stage play, which ran in New York and London in 1920.

[euclid]

Hey, Uncle Jim,

What's "Speculative Mystery"?

[euclid]

The Young Visiters; or, Mr. Salteena's Plan by Daisy Ashford. A novel, from 1919. It went into multiple printings in its first year.

Ms. Ashford was nine years old when she wrote it.

The novel was turned into a stage play, which ran in New York and London in 1920.

And it's still in print !
I've ordered a copy from Amazon.
Can't wait.

[James D. Macdonald]

What's "Speculative Mystery"?


Apparently it's what that author writes.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Why do you say this {The Young Immigrunts} was probably by RL Snr.?

Because the humor is not nine-year-old humor. Most of the jokes are about marital strife and Prohibition, and they're very conscious jokes (rather than the inadvertent humor of The Young Visiters).

It's also a pretty closely-following spoof of The Young Visiters, which seems more like a Ring, Sr. thing to do (his spoofs of avant-garde theater, for instance, are hilarious) than something Ring, Jr. would do at age 9.

Ordered a copy of Daisy Ashford's book from Amazon

It's delightful. I hope you got one with illustrations!

What's "Speculative Mystery"?

Whenever I've seen that used, it's referred to fiction that has both speculative fiction (science fiction/fantasy/slipstream) and mystery elements. Someone solving a crime committed by a reptilian alien, for instance.

[Blue Sky]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Thanks for helping so many people with writing. I found this thread while reading another one. Currently, I am in the sixty-second decade of the three hundred and thirty year war against writer's sloth and fear.

The two points that stand out for me are bic and start the next book when the first draft is complete. Both are obvious, but obviously a lot of us have not been doing them.

My first two-hour bic session today was great. I started with a new word document and nothing in mind, trusting whatever came, ready to type. Suddenly, a big bald guy was standing in a cave, looking at a closed steel door. Yowsa! How fun.

Whenever I started to slow down, I let go and trusted whatever came, regardless. It was outrageous, but it flowed like a stream.

Thanks again to you and everybody for all the guidance and inspiration. Until I started reading this thread, I wasn't considering a novel until getting my non-fiction manuscript published with a few follow up non-fic books after that.

Okay, back to reading--I'll be awhile.

Phil

[Write4U2]

Icy and Uncle Jim,

I've completed a manuscript (FN) and have sent a query off to one agent. Now I'm obsessing over what could be wrong that I didn't see or didn't know.

My novel would lend itself to illustrations. As an artist, I would love that, and have already painted/drawn some. I know there isn't much chance of it getting published, much less being published with illustrations, but I truly love illustrated novels. I know it's the cost, but they are so lovely.

Getting down to work is never hard for me. I grab a cuppa in the morning when I get up, and so thoroughly concentrate, that it jars me when I get interrupted. I'd rather stay at my computer and write than do anything else.

When I print out the day's work, I take it to my bed, lie down and start correcting. Then I go back to the computer.

I love writing. I wish I hadn't wasted so much time before I got serious - but a girl's gotta eat!

[euclid]

Because the humor is not nine-year-old humor. Most of the jokes are about marital strife and Prohibition, and they're very conscious jokes (rather than the inadvertent humor of The Young Visiters).

It's also a pretty closely-following spoof of The Young Visiters, which seems more like a Ring, Sr. thing to do (his spoofs of avant-garde theater, for instance, are hilarious) than something Ring, Jr. would do at age 9.

Right. I didn't realise RL jnr was only 9. He went on to a pretty impressive full career as a screen writer (in spite of being blacklisted by the HUAC).

[FOTSGreg]

Bump! (Just because we can't have this thread falling off the front page)

Uncle Jim, I just purchased the book "Manuscript Makeover" by Elizabeth Lyon (I figure I need all the help I can get) and just finished "How Not To Write A Novel".

Would you be so good as to make a comment regarding the worth of either of these two books (I found a lot of good information in "How Not...", not to mention the fact that it's highly readable and very funny in places)?

No, I have no vested interest in these aside from trying to improve my skills and learn the craft.

[euclid]

I've been reading Writing Fiction by the Gotham Writers' Workshop.

Same question.

[James D. Macdonald]

Well, seeing as I haven't read any of those books, I can't really comment too much on 'em.

About any How-To-Write book: If it gets your butt in your chair and your fingers on the keyboard it's a good book.

[James D. Macdonald]

BTW, if I can get in a minor brag:

Margaret Ronald's book, Spiral Hunt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0061662410/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/), just came out from Eos. This is Maggie's first novel; it was the one she workshopped at Viable Paradise (http://www.viableparadise.com), her first novel sale, and is the first volume of a three-book deal with Harper.

[IceCreamEmpress]

My novel would lend itself to illustrations. As an artist, I would love that, and have already painted/drawn some. I know there isn't much chance of it getting published, much less being published with illustrations, but I truly love illustrated novels. I know it's the cost, but they are so lovely.

It's not unheard of, even when a novel has had a large-press trade publication, to also have a limited-edition illustrated version published by a small press that focuses on art books. Neil Gaiman has done this, for instance.

[Chris Grey]

Well, seeing as I haven't read any of those books, I can't really comment too much on 'em.

About any How-To-Write book: If it gets your butt in your chair and your fingers on the keyboard it's a good book.

This is a know thyself kinda thing, but I know that I use books on writing as a crutch to keep me from actually writing. My favorite is probably The War of Art because it pretty much rails specifically against procrastinating, which is exactly what I used it for.

I already know how to write. I've read enough books to know what the end product should look like, I know enough about English to make my own sentences to express ideas, and I'm fluent enough to know what does and does not work toward that end. No "How To Write" has taught me that.

Uncle Jim said it truest with BIC. Everything else is just tips and tricks-- some more useful than others, but all are equally worthless if not applied.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a cat to shave.

[euclid]

Well, I think I'm a pretty good writer too, but how can I know if there is no more to learn from how-to-write books? I think learning is a lifelong thing. I always try to learn as I go, whatever I'm doing in life.

This book that I am reading right now, the Gotham Writers' Workshop on Writing Fiction, has chapters on Character, POV, plot, description etc. I suppose it must be me, but many of the examples fly right over my head. Just one example (discussing "telling details"):

"In Toni Morrison's Beloved, the eyes of Sethe, the protagonist, are certainly a telling detail. Here is how Sethe's eyes are seen by her old friend Paul D:

irises the same color of her skin, which, in that still face, made him think of mercifully punched-out eyes.

...Such telling details...stay in the reader's mind with an almost hypnotic force."

I don't get this. What are "punched-out eyes"? And "mercifully" punched-out eyes?

Maybe it's a cultural thing...

[smsarber]

Of course there are things to learn, from books on writing, from other writers, from mundane everyday experiences. Anyone who thinks they can't learn anything new, especially about a craft like writing, or any other art, is a fool. We must never think we are above instruction, molding, mentoring. There's a whole world out there we can learn from.

[James D. Macdonald]

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a cat to shave.

Once you've shaved that cat you can wax it and buff it to a high gloss!



I don't get this. What are "punched-out eyes"? And "mercifully" punched-out eyes?



Beats heck out of me.

Maybe if we saw the entire scene it would make sense....

[smsarber]

Once you've shaved that cat you can wax it and buff it to a high gloss!




Just don't use the floor polisher... trust me, don't use the floor polisher!

[smsarber]

Maybe "mercifully punched out eyes" means punched out (like a hole punch on a train ticket) and no longer able to see the desperation of the world. That could be deemed merciful. Still a very strange example. If I read the book, I don't think that line would grab my attention at all, but singled out, it does.

[James D. Macdonald]

If we want to talk about eyes, the only description we have of Elizabeth Bennett in Pride and Prejudice is that she has "fine eyes." And in Njal's Saga, Hallgerd's description is that she has "thief's eyes."

If you want telling details, pretty much anything by Dashiell Hammett (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=418827&postcount=4798) is wall-to-wall telling detail.

[allenparker]

...Such telling details...stay in the reader's mind with an almost hypnotic force."

I don't get this. What are "punched-out eyes"? And "mercifully" punched-out eyes?

Maybe it's a cultural thing...


I disagree with the author's take on details. First, you don't want things to stick out. This phrase, as it is presented, sticks out like a sore thumb.

You want prose where the reader has already decided the details fit the picture you already began painting. You don't want abrupt details that startle the reader into re-examining her position on the story.

The example I would give is that of a woman lying naked on a blanket in the sun, her legs bronze, with patches of sand on her thighs. If I continue with how lovely the setting sun was touching down in the ocean, this would make sense. If I offered that the woman was on the bank of a stream in the mountains, it would be memorable and would stick with the reader like glue, but would probably make the reader review their position.
These types of things take me out of the story and I find it hard to continue without going back to look and see where I went wrong. Sometimes the story isn't worth going back for.

I want details that are so precise I never notice them, but still cause me to incorporate them into my mental picture.


As an aside, I find that when my Beta's read something and offer a suggestion that is completely impossible with the image I am trying to paint, I have made just that above mentioned mistake.

Anyone else have this happen to them? anyone? Damn, I knew I was the only one.

[James D. Macdonald]

The only other descriptions we get of Hallgerd in Njal's Saga is that she has blonde hair long enough to tuck in her belt (this becomes a plot-point later), and we are told that in her youth she was called "Hallgerd Long-legs."

Literary writers are fonder of more (and more nonsensical) metaphors in their writing. I've linked to this essay before, and I'm going to link to it again: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200107/myers

[euclid]

I disagree with the author's take on details. First, you don't want things to stick out. This phrase, as it is presented, sticks out like a sore thumb.

You want prose where the reader has already decided the details fit the picture you already began painting. You don't want abrupt details that startle the reader into re-examining her position on the story.

The example I would give is that of a woman lying naked on a blanket in the sun, her legs bronze, with patches of sand on her thighs. If I continue with how lovely the setting sun was touching down in the ocean, this would make sense. If I offered that the woman was on the bank of a stream in the mountains, it would be memorable and would stick with the reader like glue, but would probably make the reader review their position.
These types of things take me out of the story and I find it hard to continue without going back to look and see where I went wrong. Sometimes the story isn't worth going back for.

I'm not sure I understood this point either. Are you saying the sand on her thighs suggested a seaside scene, and then the mountain scene contradicted that?

If you continued as you suggested with a lovely setting sun touching down on the ocean, I would probably think "Aw heck, why is he looking out to sea? What about that NAKED WOMAN? Tell us some more about her." Or maybe we should assume that she's wrapped up and gone home now that the sun has set.

[euclid]

Literary writers are fonder of more (and more nonsensical) metaphors in their writing. I've linked to this essay before, and I'm going to link to it again: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200107/myers

That's a brilliant article. My printer blew a fuse printing it out (all 19 pages of it). I wonder to what extent he (she?) is a lone voice crying in the wilderness.

[James D. Macdonald]

Lying by that mountain stream I expect she was being eaten alive by mosquitoes and black flies.