Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[Judg]

Yes but...

That's how the author refers to the character. The other characters may use several names for the same character in the same scene.

...

You remember when I recommended The Karamazov Brothers?

One of the brothers is Alexi Fyodorovich Karamazov, but the other characters refer to him (depending on the situation and their relationship to him) variously as Alexi, Alyosha, Alyoshka, Alyoshenka, Alyoshechka, Alexeichik, Lyosha, and Lyoshenka.
And that is one of the things that makes Russian novels so very hard to read.

[James D. Macdonald]

And that is one of the things that makes Russian novels so very hard to read.


Did you hear about the Russian novelist who killed himself by leaping from atop his suicide note?

[Judg]

Did you hear about the Russian novelist who committed killed himself by leaping from atop his suicide note?
:ROFL:

[Yeshanu]

:roll:

[allenparker]

Did you hear about the Russian novelist who killed himself by leaping from atop his suicide note?

I'm researching some Oswald details right now. You have no idea about verbose until you spend a week or two reading a Russian purchase order slip.

I finally decided to start skimming. It took less than a week to read a thank you note.

I was just glad it was already translated.

[lexxi]

One of the brothers is Alexi Fyodorovich Karamazov, but the other characters refer to him (depending on the situation and their relationship to him) variously as Alexi, Alyosha, Alyoshka, Alyoshenka, Alyoshechka, Alexeichik, Lyosha, and Lyoshenka.


As long as there's only one Alexei in the novel, it would be clear to anyone familiar with Russian naming conventions who was being referred to.


No different than if a character named James was variously referred to by other characters as James, Jamesy, Jim, Jimmy, Jimbo, Jimster . . . we'd all know it was the same character, right? Maybe someone else would call him Jamie or Jiminy Cricket or Diego and we'd need some more context to make the connection.

[smsarber]

Just like my name is Steve, but it has not been unheard of for people to refer to me as "s**thead". But you probably wouldn't need much more context to figure that one out.:roll:

[Yeshanu]

This is where having a shorter name helps. My name is Ruth. Only one person can call me "Ruthie" and get away with her life. (My godmother, if it matters...)

[thethinker42]

In Russian novels, everyone has several names, and which name is used by whom is determined by the exact relationship between the two characters.

May I recommend The Karamazov Brothers?

This is very typical of Russian culture...when I was taking Russian, we actually had a test once where we were given a name, and had to list what various people in the person's life would call him...parents, friends, spouse, nieces/nephews, etc.

It's interesting, but confusing as hell for some of us simple Americanfolk.

[Makai_Lightning]

Hello...

To completely change the topic,

What are everyone's thoughts on flash fowards in novels? I'm pretty sure I've seen them before, though I can't remember where. Either like something that fuctions like a prologue, in the front of the book that details an event that will either eventually take place that we see or don't see, or something from a scene we get later (these would have to be short, I imagine?). I see why most people won't use them, and they mostly won't be necessary, but has anyone seen any particularly good instances?

[James D. Macdonald]

Flash forwards?

Tricky if you don't have an old Gypsy fortune teller doing 'em, and you aren't in a time-travel plot.

But, outside of those, you can find a good one in The Outback Stars (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0765316439/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/") by my friend Sandra McDonald (no relation). (Buy one, buy a dozen, they make excellent gifts.)

[James D. Macdonald]

It's Saint Nicholas Day!

So, in honor of the holy saint, and because it's that time of year, it's time for this year's Christmas Challenge!


Okay. Go to a used-book store. (This is fun all in itself.) Go to the box where they keep the Really Cheap books. Look through it until you find a book that's labeled as having been a Best Seller or major Award Winner. (Not "by the best-selling author" or "by the award-winning author" -- the book itself has to have won the award or sold the copies.) This should be a book you've never read; preferably one you've never heard of.

Buy it. Try not to pay over fifty cents.

Read the book. Outline it. Chapter by chapter. Keep a list of the characters with a brief description of what each does in the book.

Go, my friends. Finish the outline and character list by Christmas Day.

[Niamh1882]

Good grief Uncle Jim. Where am I supposed to find an English-, German-, or French-language award-winning used book in Madrid? :Wha: (I'm stuck here until the 18th and my Spanish is lousy, thanks for asking.) I guess the scavenger hunt will keep me busy for a while. *shrug*

[Perle_Rare]

Niamh1882:

Second-hand bookstores in touristy areas often contain a small collection of books in various languages, courtesy of those tourists. Finding a best-seller or award-winning book shouldn't be impossible since those tend to be the books that can be bought at airports. And since you read three languages, your odds will be even better. Give it a try!

I know I love any excuse to go to the second-hand book store... :D

Perle

[James D. Macdonald]

I picked up King's The Stand in a used-book shop in Montevideo, Uruguay.

[Ken Schneider]

Was it last Christmas that we did the, merge Mary Shelly's Frankenstein with, (choices),I did Sherlock Holmes vindicating Justine Moritz written in the style Doyle. Or was that 2 years ago?

Off to the bookstore.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

The information that I found on the Necronomicon is that it was invented by HP Lovecraft and many authors and movies have used that book as if it is real. With that being said, it would bad manners to mention said book in a story featuring witches. Would it be just something that's been said and done so many times it's better to come up with something else?

[Yeshanu]

Okay. Go to a used-book store. (This is fun all in itself.)

He wants me to live dangerously, does he? If I'm not out by Christmas, folks, send out the search party. I'll probably be perfectly happy, but more than a little hungry, as I often forget to eat when I'm lost in a good book or hundred. :D

[euclid]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I've been catching up on my reading. In the past 2 weeks I have read:

Ernest Hemmingway
Debra Doyle & James Macdonald
Raymond Carver
Flannery O'Connor (Short Stories)

All the classics, really.

I haven't been able to make any sense of Carver's short stories. Not a one of them reaches any sort of conclusion. I reckon if I wrote a story like that, everyone would say: "That's not a story at all. Where's the ending?"

I suppose I must be missing the point, as usual. I know how highly regarded he is.

Flannery O'Connor I LOVE. I love everything about the way she writes. Everything. She is a wonderful writer. I reckon I learnt more about writing by reading her stories than from all of the "how to write" books I have consumed recently.

Heading out to the second-hand-book-shop tomorrow to find that Nebula Award winner.

[James D. Macdonald]

HP Lovecraft was building on earlier work by Ambrose Bierce and Robert W. Chambers.

Lovecraft created the Necronomicon, as part of the Cthulhu mythos, but he allowed his friends to play in his universe. More than that, Lovecraft worked as a copyeditor for pulp magazines during the 'twenties, and he would insert Cthulhu material into stories by other people (without their permission--such was the happy, carefree life of the freelance writer back in those days). The mythos has since taken over an entire sub-branch of horror (I've used it myself--Land of Mist and Snow and "Philologos (http://www.johnjosephadams.com/?p=1405)"). Various books purporting to be the Necronomicon have been published.

The Necronomicon first appeared in 1922, (and Lovecraft himself died 70 years ago in 1938) putting it well into the public domain.

You can use it, but if you do you should be aware that your readers will expect that your book is part of the Cthulhu mythos and will have certain other expectations as well. (Including, but not limited to, Arkham Asylum (yes, the current incarnation of Batman is located in the Cthulhu mythos), Miskatonic University, and the seafood festival at Innsmouth.) If you are going to use the Necronomicon, know what it is supposed to be, and use it in a manner that is not inconsistent with others. This will keep your readers from throwing your book across the room.

(At one point in my life I owned a "It's The Great Old Ones, Charlie Brown!" tee shirt.)

(In "Philologos," which was written as my entry in one of this thread's Christmas Challenges (and subsequently published by F&SF, thanks very much), our hero, William R. Sharps (the "R" stands for Romeo, but he doesn't ever tell anyone that) winds up in Castle Dracula (which is never called by name in the story ... but long-time readers of fantastic literature will instantly recognize it), but nothing there fazes him -- for he went through Finals Week eight times at Miskatonic U, after which facing the undead and unholy religions is ... well, those unholy undead didn't know what hit 'em.)

[euclid]

Go to a used-book store. (This is fun all in itself.) Go to the box where they keep the Really Cheap books. Look through it until you find a book that's labeled as having been a Best Seller or major Award Winner. (Not "by the best-selling author" or "by the award-winning author" -- the book itself has to have won the award or sold the copies.) This should be a book you've never read; preferably one you've never heard of.

Buy it. Try not to pay over fifty cents.

Or: Support your local library. :)

[Yeshanu]

The problem with library books, euclid, is you can't mark 'em up, which is something I might want to do for this assignment.

Well you can, but neither the librarian nor I (and I would almost certainly be the next borrower in this case) would thank you for it.

[smsarber]

He wants me to live dangerously, does he? If I'm not out by Christmas, folks, send out the search party. I'll probably be perfectly happy, but more than a little hungry, as I often forget to eat when I'm lost in a good book or hundred. :D
That's why sometimes I really like the books with page-and-a-half to two-page chapters. It's easy to find a point to stop for a quick snack and not have to search for which paragraph it was. Of course, that's just me. Besides food, I am also frequently distracted by my seven year-old. And this thread. Dang you, Uncle Jim, for this wonderful place of refuge for those of us with an unfathomable well of questions!

[euclid]

I went to our secondhand bookshop. Couldn't find any award-winning books. I bought "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman. 632 pages, for $5. (Quite a bit more than the 50cents you suggested, Jim. She did have a box of books: 3 for $1, but they were dog-eared and in really poor shape, and nothing even remotely award-winning.)

For the purpose of the exercise, I think I will read and analyse another book that I have been waiting to start: "Doors Open" the latest book by Ian Rankin, if that's okay.

[James D. Macdonald]

3 for $1, but they were dog-eared and in really poor shape, and nothing even remotely award-winning.)

That's the right price range, and dog-eared and in poor shape doesn't matter. No best-sellers either?

[Komnena]

Try thrift stores too.

[euclid]

That's the right price range, and dog-eared and in poor shape doesn't matter. No best-sellers either?

There were only 6-8 books in there. Nothing worth reading.

We don't have "thrift stores" but we do have Charity shops (Oxfam, Shave the Whales, etc.) where decent books sometimes turn up.

[Komnena]

Why should we shave the whales?

[euclid]

I hate a hairy whale, don't you?

[Komnena]

Not enough to buy all the shaving cream it would take to shave one.

[James D. Macdonald]

Tonight, in the continuing adventures of William Craig, Whale Shaver, Bill travels to the Arctic Ocean to shave the elusive Minsk Whale. Don't miss this exciting episode!

[Perle_Rare]

Tonight, in the continuing adventures of William Craig, Whale Shaver, Bill travels to the Arctic Ocean to shave the elusive Minsk Whale. Don't miss this exciting episode!

:roll:

[euclid]

Not enough to buy all the shaving cream it would take to shave one.

I hadn't thought of that. And there's the Old Spice after-shave, too.

[smsarber]

Dog-eared and worn doesn't matter. But a real kick in the shins was when I was in jail (where most of the books were in very poor shape), and I got all the way through a Civil War-era book by the guy who wrote North and South, it was about the Pinkerton Detectives (the first Secret Service), anyway, I got to the end and the last few pages were missing.
Needless to say, I check all used books now for all the pages!

[Don]

Dog-eared and worn doesn't matter. But a real kick in the shins was when I was in jail (where most of the books were in very poor shape), and I got all the way through a Civil War-era book by the guy who wrote North and South, it was about the Pinkerton Detectives (the first Secret Service), anyway, I got to the end and the last few pages were missing.
Needless to say, I check all used books now for all the pages!
There's a great M*A*S*H episode using that premise. They had to track down the author in the states -- from Korea. :D

[smsarber]

There's a great M*A*S*H episode using that premise. They had to track down the author in the states -- from Korea. :D
Saw it, good episode. I did check it out in the prison library when I got there and finish the book. Can't remember the guy's name...

[Dave.C.Robinson]

John Jakes maybe?

[smsarber]

YES! Thanks, I was going to look it up after my son got finished on the comp.

[Scribhneoir]

Go to a used-book store. (This is fun all in itself.) Go to the box where they keep the Really Cheap books. Look through it until you find a book that's labeled as having been a Best Seller or major Award Winner. (Not "by the best-selling author" or "by the award-winning author" -- the book itself has to have won the award or sold the copies.) This should be a book you've never read; preferably one you've never heard of.

Okay. Found a "magnificent bestseller" from 1988 that I've never heard of, though the author is a familiar name. Also found eight other books I couldn't do without . . .

Buy it. Try not to pay over fifty cents.

I paid more than fifty cents, but less than two dollars. Still a bargain.

Read the book. Outline it. Chapter by chapter. Keep a list of the characters with a brief description of what each does in the book.

Are we supposed to read it in its entirety first and then go back to outline? Or do we outline and track the characters as we go?

[James D. Macdonald]

Are we supposed to read it in its entirety first and then go back to outline? Or do we outline and track the characters as we go?

Your choice. Whatever works for you.

[Jerry B. Flory]

I snatched up "Venus on the Half Shell" by Kilgore Trout (Philip Jose Farmer)
I was amazed to find it in the "Take a Book!" Free box. It's been reprinted more times than the bible.

[Yeshanu]

Okay. Found a "magnificent bestseller" from 1988 that I've never heard of, though the author is a familiar name. Also found eight other books I couldn't do without . . .



See, there's the problem...

I've decided to take a look on my bookshelf and see what I've got that I "should" read, but haven't read yet.

[James D. Macdonald]

William Craig had just arrived at his office and was looking over the envelopes from the previous day's mail delivery that Susan had handed him when he heard the phone ring in his inner office. His private, unlisted, line. He pushed open the mahogany door and dumped the letters into his IN box as he picked up the receiver.

"Bill here. How can I make your day brighter?"

"You can refuse the Oberdorff contract."

"Who is this?" Bill asked. He'd never heard of Oberdorff.

"A friend. An interested friend. Make it easy on yourself, Bill. Just don't sign the contract."

Bill reached out and pressed the button on the phone that started an immediate lock-and-trace on the call. "Suppose I do refuse the contract," he said, trying to keep the caller on the line long enough for the phone trap to do its work. "What's in it for me?"

"Maybe you stay in business," the voice said. Male. Trace of a Kentucky or Tennessee twang to the vowels, but the speaker had been living somewhere else long enough for a hint of mid-Atlantic seaboard to creep into the consonants.

"Not good enough," Bill said. "Make it worth my time."

The caller wasn't having any of it. "Remember what I said." The line went dead.

Susan walked in from the outer office a moment later, holding a sheet of paper. "Looks like it came from a phonebooth in Topeka," she said.

Bill took the paper and squinted at it. "Bet you anything it was spoofed. Could have come from anywhere. Next block over, or Moscow. No way to tell."

"You're probably right, boss," Susan agreed. "Coffee's made. Want some?"

Bill nodded, turning to his IN basket. One by one he slit open the envelopes, pulling out their contents and giving each a quick scan. Interview requests. Invoices for Old Spice. A kid's request for an autograph for a school assignment to write to 'the person you admire most.' Next to last in the stack was a letter from Oberdorff Associates with a contract inside, not yet signed. A contract to shave the Great Minsk Whale.

Susan walked in, a mug of coffee in her hand. Bill looked up. "Pack your parka," he said. "We're heading to the Arctic.

Page one of _This Razor For Hire_. The question is, as always... would you turn the page?

[Yeshanu]

:ROFL:

If I could stop laughing long enough, yes. I want to know who the guy on the phone is, why he doesn't want the whales shaved, and what he plans to do about it. Is Bill going to shave the whale because he believes whales should be shaved, or is he going to do it because he wants to flush out the guy with the untraceable accent?

Plus, I trust this writer not to bog me down in purple prose, or leave me hanging at the end of it, questions unanswered. :)

[smsarber]

But isn't Bill Craig like a Senator or congressman? So then my question is, Why does Big Brother want the whales shaved?;)

[euclid]

I want to know if Susan and Bill are...y'know. Also, what colour are Susan's eyes, and is Bill a big muscular Red Adair type? I bet he is. And does he take sugar in his coffee? I can foresee a major conflict between the guy with the mid-atlantic accent (who's probably with Greenpiece) and Bill who obviously couldn't give a damn about the environment (having a hardwood door and all).

[James D. Macdonald]

And that is unedited first draft, written as fast as I can type, as fast as I write any other post here. I had no idea when I started what would be happening at the bottom of the page. Building character as I go. That's why Bill notices the accents -- because at that moment I felt that he was the kind of guy who would notice accents. And why he had a trace button on his phone ... at that moment I thought of it (had no idea, even, when the phone rang what the caller would say).

I don't know who the caller is, or who Oberdorff Associates are, nor am I entirely sure what the Great Minsk Whale might be, or why anyone wants to shave it, or have it shaved.

The mug that Susan brought has "World's Greatest Whale Shaver" on it. It's a blue mug with white lettering. Susan herself is wearing a blue sweater, which goes well with her red hair. The door to that inner office has a frosted-glass window in it, with William Craig, Whale Shaver in black sans-serif lettering on it. The IN basket is to the right as you face the desk, the phone is to the left. The phone is black, with a row of five buttons on the bottom, under the dial (it's a dial phone, not touch-tone).

I could see all this as I was typing. There's tons more that I could see. I'm a very visual writer. All I'm doing is transcribing the movie in my head.

I think Susan is more of an associate than a secretary. I don't know if she's wearing a skirt or pants because I haven't looked yet.

This feels like a novel-length idea.

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh -- the coffee is no sugar, two creams. Susan knows that's how he likes it.


Bill is slender, has light, short hair, and looks like he's in his late thirties. He's dressed in business casual, with tan trousers and Docker shoes. I won't mention them unless they're important to the plot.

[FennelGiraffe]

The first sentence is a little awkward. It could benefit from another editing pass.

The first paragraph is fairly bland. By itself, it doesn't hook me.

The whole page? Damn right I'd keep reading!

[Yeshanu]

And that is unedited first draft, written as fast as I can type, as fast as I write any other post here. I had no idea when I started what would be happening at the bottom of the page. Building character as I go. That's why Bill notices the accents -- because at that moment I felt that he was the kind of guy who would notice accents. And why he had a trace button on his phone ... at that moment I thought of it (had no idea, even, when the phone rang what the caller would say).

I don't know who the caller is, or who Oberdorff Associates are, nor am I entirely sure what the Great Minsk Whale might be, or why anyone wants to shave it, or have it shaved.

The mug that Susan brought has "World's Greatest Whale Shaver" on it. It's a blue mug with white lettering. Susan herself is wearing a blue sweater, which goes well with her red hair. The door to that inner office has a frosted-glass window in it, with William Craig, Whale Shaver in black sans-serif lettering on it. The IN basket is to the right as you face the desk, the phone is to the left. The phone is black, with a row of five buttons on the bottom, under the dial (it's a dial phone, not touch-tone).

I could see all this as I was typing. There's tons more that I could see. I'm a very visual writer. All I'm doing is transcribing the movie in my head.

I think Susan is more of an associate than a secretary. I don't know if she's wearing a skirt or pants because I haven't looked yet.

This feels like a novel-length idea.

That's actually about how I wrote my NaNo novel. I started with a couple of dares, and a first line, and started typing. No outline. Fifty thousand words, one month. And it turned out much better than I expected.

But I do have a problem with the visuals, because I'm mostly an aural learner. I often don't notice visual clues at all, and I have to go back and write them in, one painstaking detail at a time.

[lexxi]

The first paragraph is fairly bland. By itself, it doesn't hook me.

Maybe just start the first sentence "William Craig, Whale Shaver, had just arrived . . ." Even with the mundane details of the rest of the paragraph, the job title would probably be intriguing enough to keep me going.

[Don]

But I do have a problem with the visuals, because I'm mostly an aural learner. I often don't notice visual clues at all, and I have to go back and write them in, one painstaking detail at a time.
Ah, now I start to understand my own writing better. My 1500 word first chapter was primarily dialog. After letting it rest for a while, I 'watched' it and it turned into 2200 words with scenery and characters.

I think I must hear the radio version when I'm writing first draft. :)

[Jerry B. Flory]

And that is unedited first draft, written as fast as I can type, as fast as I write any other post here. I had no idea when I started what would be happening at the bottom of the page. Building character as I go. That's why Bill notices the accents -- because at that moment I felt that he was the kind of guy who would notice accents. And why he had a trace button on his phone ... at that moment I thought of it (had no idea, even, when the phone rang what the caller would say).

I don't know who the caller is, or who Oberdorff Associates are, nor am I entirely sure what the Great Minsk Whale might be, or why anyone wants to shave it, or have it shaved.

The mug that Susan brought has "World's Greatest Whale Shaver" on it. It's a blue mug with white lettering. Susan herself is wearing a blue sweater, which goes well with her red hair. The door to that inner office has a frosted-glass window in it, with William Craig, Whale Shaver in black sans-serif lettering on it. The IN basket is to the right as you face the desk, the phone is to the left. The phone is black, with a row of five buttons on the bottom, under the dial (it's a dial phone, not touch-tone).

I could see all this as I was typing. There's tons more that I could see. I'm a very visual writer. All I'm doing is transcribing the movie in my head.

I think Susan is more of an associate than a secretary. I don't know if she's wearing a skirt or pants because I haven't looked yet.

This feels like a novel-length idea.

For first draft it's good sewer of consciousness writing.
Your secretary smacks of Heinlein. I'll bet she wouldn't serve coffee to anyone else unless they were close friends with Bill.

[Niamh1882]

Okay. Go to a used-book store. (This is fun all in itself.) Go to the box where they keep the Really Cheap books. Look through it until you find a book that's labeled as having been a Best Seller or major Award Winner. (Not "by the best-selling author" or "by the award-winning author" -- the book itself has to have won the award or sold the copies.) This should be a book you've never read; preferably one you've never heard of.


I'm still hunting. My initial search turned up a copy of <<Capitaines Courageux>>. Why the used bookstore attached to the church across the street from my apartment had a c. 1958 French translation of Rudyard Kipling I don't know. Of course, this doesn't meet any of the critera for the challenge. It is not a best seller or and award winner (since the orignial publication pre-dates best seller lists and most litterary prizes). I've read it before (in English). I paid more than 50 cents for it (2 EUR). At least I got away without buying Lady Chatterly's Lover, which was also avialable in French for some reason.

The hunt for a suitable book goes on! On Thursday, I shall search the rest of the street. :)

Glad to hear that the rest of you are having better luck than I am.

[Niamh1882]

I would definitely turn the page on the whale-shaver book, just as soon as somebody writes page two. I think the phone call could very well have come from Moscow. Who else would have an interest in keeping Americans away from the Minsk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk) Whale but Russians making a bid for control of endangered Belorussian wild-life? The un-traceable accent is clearly the result of a Soviet-Era voice synthesizer, originally used by the KGB, which has since become accessible to civilians, or at least the civilians in organized crime.

[Perle_Rare]

Page one of _This Razor For Hire_. The question is, as always... would you turn the page?

Yes! :D

Let me know when you get this published. I'll go out and buy one, buy a dozen, give them away as gifts! :D

On a more serious note, I'm a newbie at writing and so far, I've started two WIPs the same way you mentionned: no idea where things were going but letting things be defined as I typed. The first WIP made it to about 24k words while the second is hovering at roughly 15k. I'm happy with what I have so far for both of them. Problem is, I've reached the point where neither is going anywhere. Trying to figure out what happens next is like pulling teeth.

What would you suggest to get me out of this predicament?

[James D. Macdonald]

What would you suggest to get me out of this predicament?

You're in the dread Mid Book.

The first 20K is easy. The last 20K is joy. It's the middle 40K that's like swimming through quicksand.

Remind yourself that those distant mountains are getting closer with every step, though you cannot see it now.

Also, I do have an idea where this book is heading ... a scene with Bill beside a bearded rabbi, in a palace filled with Fabergé eggs, ready to help the rabbi out of a pure-white marble window onto the dangling ladder from a Zeppelin hovering overhead.

I may never get to that scene. Probably won't, in fact. But it's an aiming point while I'm learning what the book is really about and what its true ending is supposed to be.

[smsarber]

Would that be a "Led" Zeppelin? Seriously, though, the dreaded *MID... Now I know what to call it!! Thanks!

*Mission Impossibly Dogged

[Ken Schneider]

Yep, write down the movie in your head, and don't forget to show the movie not just tell us what you see.

Good Jim. I read on. I write the same way. You know those characters will find their own way and make the story for you after a while, anyway.

[Yeshanu]

I may never get to that scene. Probably won't, in fact.

A question for you, Uncle Jim:

Do you ever write anything just for the heck of it, with no thought about getting published? I don't mean posts, I mean longer pieces like whole short stories or books?

And do you "practice," as a musician might practice, trying various forms of writing that may never be seen in public?

I'm asking because when I started my NaNo novel, I was really blocked, and I said to myself, "I'm going to have fun. I'm writing to learn and have fun, not get published." And it worked. Not only did I "win" NaNo, I learned a heck of a lot about myself and about writing that I didn't know in October. So I was wondering if, like a musician, it was important to keep doing this throughout one's career.

[Yeshanu]

Yep, write down the movie in your head, and don't forget to show the movie not just tell us what you see.



The problem with these instructions, Ken, is that I don't see. I hear, and to a lesser extent smell and feel, but I don't see, at least not very well. So writing what I see doesn't come out very well.

For my NaNo novel, as an example, I had the characters visit Union Station in Toronto. I couldn't do it from memory, despite the fact that I'd been in the exact same spot as my characters literally thousands of time.

So I went there yesterday, and sat down against a pillar, and wrote a description of exactly what I was looking at. And I saw things I'd never noticed before.

[James D. Macdonald]

Do you ever write anything just for the heck of it, with no thought about getting published? I don't mean posts, I mean longer pieces like whole short stories or books?

Whole stories or books? No. Scenes? All the darned time. I mean, you just saw me do it.

You should write without thought of getting published, because if you're having fun the reader can tell. Likewise, if you're bored, the reader can tell that too.


And do you "practice," as a musician might practice, trying various forms of writing that may never be seen in public?

Totally. Especially formal poetry (sonnets and sestinas, for example).

(Beware. The villanelle is the most restrictive of all sandwich forms. (http://catandgirl.com/?p=728))

[smsarber]

The problem with these instructions, Ken, is that I don't see. I hear, and to a lesser extent smell and feel, but I don't see, at least not very well. So writing what I see doesn't come out very well.

For my NaNo novel, as an example, I had the characters visit Union Station in Toronto. I couldn't do it from memory, despite the fact that I'd been in the exact same spot as my characters literally thousands of time.

So I went there yesterday, and sat down against a pillar, and wrote a description of exactly what I was looking at. And I saw things I'd never noticed before.
I'm the same way. I do see it, but in a small and fleeting way. I need to get back to writing down random observations again. Knowing what I do now, I may be able to actually use that to better my writing.

[Niamh1882]

A question for you, Uncle Jim:
And do you "practice," as a musician might practice, trying various forms of writing that may never be seen in public?


Oh yes, I've filled more than one note book with random things either written as practice or scribbled observations of the world around me. [Because I never know when I might need an authentic piece of Roman subway graffiti for a story.]

I haven't been published yet, but I certainly get my practice in. My current notebooks include everything from half of a pastoral short story (because I'm taking a class on the genera and trying to write one seemed like a good idea when I started) to a notice from a convent I stayed in a few months ago that states "it is not allowed to drink alcoholics".

You're not alone. Practice makes perfect.

[James D. Macdonald]

Until you send off the finished work to an editor any page may turn out to have been "just for practice."

And until the editor sends back a check any book or story may turn out to have been "just for practice."

[Jerry B. Flory]

Try again tomorrow, but you aren't allowed to use the word "was," the word "being," or the phrase "have been."
heheheh

[Judg]

Yes, I'd read on, for the sheer absurdity of it. The MC throwing himself at conflict is fun too.

I do agree that the first sentence is clunky, but hey, it's a first draft.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

I don't know who the caller is, or who Oberdorff Associates are, nor am I entirely sure what the Great Minsk Whale might be, or why anyone wants to shave it, or have it shaved.

The IN basket is to the right as you face the desk, the phone is to the left. The phone is black, with a row of five buttons on the bottom, under the dial (it's a dial phone, not touch-tone).

I think Susan is more of an associate than a secretary. I don't know if she's wearing a skirt or pants because I haven't looked yet.

This feels like a novel-length idea.
Oberdorff Associates are known, primarily in Europe, as purveyors of fine linens. Bill wouldn't know this, as he's single, and has never shopped for a trousseau.

From the positioning of the IN basket and the phone, Bill is either left handed, or ambidextrous. I vote for left handed. He also has a problem with today's wireless world - he doesn't carry a Blackberry, and he takes notes, by hand, with a fountain pen.

Susan is in a skirt, knee length, because that's the kind of impression that she wants to project - business-like, and sure of herself. She will always dress appropriate to the situation at hand - be it a Dior evening gown or whipcord hiking trousers with a Sherpa vest - and she'll beat her boss to the draw with any weapon you care to name.

[James D. Macdonald]

My beloved elder daughter's first novel is now available for pre-order.

Please note that the cover art and blurb are up five months before the book will hit the shelves. And it will assuredly hit the shelves, not to mention wire-rack spinners in bus stations everywhere. (This is why you want to go with a commercial publisher.)

Salt and Silver (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0765363046/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) by Anna Katherine. Order your Arbor Day presents early!

Allie can’t seem to get it together. Ever since her mom ran away to Rio with Rio—her tennis instructor—stealing Allie’s trust fund and her comfortable way of life, Allie has been floundering. She works in Sally’s Diner, and lives above it. And one night in the basement, she and her friends chant a ridiculous spell—for money, for luck, for love…and open a Doorway to Hell.

Ryan thinks he’s got it all figured out. When the Door opened he appeared out of nowhere, a Stetson-wearing demon hunter dressed in leather. He’s assigned to the Door, and hangs out at the diner, and when the Door disappears he is certain that Allie had something to do with it.

But something strange is happening in Brooklyn. Something bigger than Allie, and Ryan, and the Door in the diner basement. And when a meeting of demon hunters gives birth to a dangerous idea, Allie and Ryan are left to wonder if the fragile feelings growing between them can survive a trip to Hell…or if they themselves will survive at all.

[Perle_Rare]

Uncle Jim,

What does it take for a book to be labelled as "bestseller"?

I went to my local library and, for $5, I walked out with a grocery bag full of used books the library was selling off. Many of those were "bestsellers" by authors I had never heard of.

Now the issue will be, which one to choose for the assignment? :D

[euclid]

I've finished reading and documenting my book. "Doors Open" by Ian Rankin. I have notes of contents and characters (and mistakes) for each chapter. What do I do now?

I'VE JUST NOTICED: THIS IS MY 500TH POST !

[Teriann]

Greetings, and thanks for the great advice. I was going to wait to post a question (and introduce myself) until I read all the way through the thread, but I'm only a 10th of the way through, and I have a question about something I read.

You gave a "trick" : start a story arch, and before reaching the climax, start a second story arch, and then substitute the second climax for the first. (I think I paraphrased that correctly.)

I'm not clear on this. Can you explain, or refer me to something to read so I can understand better what you mean? (This afternoon I will look for a copy of the Chess book, I promise.)

[smsarber]

UJ,
Congrats on your daughter's accomplishment!

[Calliopenjo]

:hooray::snoopy::partyguy:

Congratulations to you your daughter Uncle Jim. Way to go.

[Fresie]

Congratulations, Uncle Jim!! Talent sure runs in the family! :e2cheer: :PartySmil

[smsarber]

And I thought Jonathan Kellerman had a big writing family, with his wife and daughter both authors. You have your wife, your son, and now a daughter. Any more MacDonald's to watch out for?
Personal note: My seven year-old boy makes "books," composed of simple sentences, maybe he'll follow in my footsteps. And maybe I'll finally be published by the time he is!

[James D. Macdonald]

You gave a "trick" : start a story arch, and before reaching the climax, start a second story arch, and then substitute the second climax for the first. (I think I paraphrased that correctly.)






The classic example is "The Miller's Tale (http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/miller.htm)" from The Canterbury Tales.

We start with Nicholas' desire to lay the carpenter's wife. This story arc ends before he manages to do the deed. We move to the second story arc, where Nicholas convinces the carpenter that Noah's flood is going to return. We return to the first story arc, as Nicholas beds the carpenter's wife. But before we get to the climax (so to speak) of that action, we instead get the climax to the Noah's Flood story as Nicholas yells "Water!"

[Teriann]

Got it. So that's why that ending was so hilarious and surprising. (I read Chaucer years ago, but vividly remember that story).

Thanks for the additional explanation. I'm steadily reading through the entire thread. It's wonderful!

[smsarber]

So, two Q's: If you are writing a book/story/practice-collection-of-words, and your MC is named David (not Dave), but later on a character pops out named Steve Davis that's no problem, right? But say one of the other lead characters calls all the men by their last name. Now you have a "David", and a "Davis". Would you roll with it, or change Steve's last name? I ask because I changed the name of a supporting character in one of my stories, for a different reason, and it never really felt right afterwards. Like changing the name of one's own child. (Okay, maybe not THAT bad)

Two, how does everybody go about choosing names? Most of the time I write interesting musicians, actors' and movie/tv/book characters' first names on one page in a notebook, then their last names on another. Then kind of mix and match. A similar approach was in my book The Silvertone. The town I named Tipton's meadow, the MC, Glenn Butler. For this one, Glenn Tipton is one of the guitarists from Judas Priest. So I used his last name for the town, and his first name for the MC. Then Butler came from Geezer Butler, the bass player from Black Sabbath. A convaluted way to do it, but it works for me.

[Yeshanu]

For the first question: I'd change one of the names. It would be too confusing to have names that close together. Even having a lot of names that begin with the same letter is a problem. In my first draft of my first novel, about half the characters started out with names that began with "A." Needless to say, I changed that. Even I was getting confused.

As for choosing names, I remember names that are unusual and might be useful someday. Writing them down in a book is a good idea. I also have a baby name book that I picked up at a garage sale. It's not the greatest, but it's a start. Because I write fantasy, I'll take a name and play around with it until I get something I like.

That's how I ended up with Yeshanu. It comes from "Aisha" which is an Arabic/African name which means life, according to my not-so-great name book. Morphed to Ayesha, but because it still begins with A (yes, this name came from that book :) ) I changed it again to Yeshanu. (The characters original name was Athena, yet another name beginning with "A.")

[James D. Macdonald]

The rule is: Don't confuse the reader.

For names: In outlines I often use place-holders (Buddy, Deadmeat, Perky) because Doyle is going to change them all anyway.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Steve,

To me, Davis and David sound TOO alike. Try another 'D' name if that's your choice of the alphabet. Something like DiSarono, or D'Anchise. As for when I name my characters, I use baby name sites.
http://www.20000-names.com/index.htm
http://www.babynames.com.au/search-main.htm
http://www.behindthename.com/
The above are sites that I use most frequently. I look at the category, if the site has any, or the meaning of the name and fit the name with the character that way. It's also a method that I use to name my fantasy worlds. Most times any way.
:e2writer:

[smsarber]

Well, actually it was a purely hypothetical question. I don't currently have any David and Davis conflicts, but two characters in A Birthday Suicide have names that begin with "D"; Dexter and Danny. I think they work fine, though. Baby name books and sites are a great idea, I will probably implement them in my process.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I was wondering if you knew if Merlin had a wife. I saw that he was a "bastard" child and may have disappeared before King Arthur's birth. But I haven't found anything that tells me if he was married. Do you know?

:e2writer:

[RJK]

This (http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/) site is from the Social Security office. You can enter the year of birth and it will list the most popular names. It's great for first names. I try to make up a last name that's similar to one I've heard. If I strike out there, I use a first name and modify it to make it a last name i'e' Robert = Robertson.

Definitely change the sound alike names, unless you're doing a sequel to Blazing Saddles.

I've also used the Behind the Name site.

[pictopedia]

@Teriann,

About what you mentioned: "You gave a "trick" : start a story arch, and before reaching the climax, start a second story arch, and then substitute the second climax for the first."
This will probably really feel like a "trick" to the reader (=a stiff method). I don't like that method that much. There is a much better way to come up with an interesting storyline.

This is a blueprint or a spine of a good story:

Act 1
-the hero lives in his ordinary world and has a need (the secondary storyline he is not or partially aware of and is not reacting to)
-something happens and the hero is called into immediate action
-the hero refuses, doesn't want to leave his comfort zone while getting to know his enemy for the first time
-a supernatural aid, friend, thing or mentor kicks the hero into action

Act 2, Part 1, 25%
-the hero enters the world of adventure (the special world, the primary story line)
-the hero makes a plan to defeat the enemy and finds tests, allies and enemies
-the enemy launches a counter attack
-the hero goes to the most dangerous place in the story, usually the enemy's camp

Act 2, Part 2, 50%
-he has a traumatic fight with the enemy which he enters for personal reason and "dies" (is defeated somehow)
-after that he feels the consequences of the fight (he either wins or looses something momentarily)
-he gains knowledge with that and changes his motives to fight (becomes more selfless)
-meanwhile the enemy changes somehow or reveals himself more or differently

Act 3, 75%
-the hero has to go make a decision to go back to his ordinary world and the enemy follows him there
-the hero comes close to death (usually is wounded physically in some way)
-the hero has one final battle, this time in his own world, and this time for a cause larger than himself
-he achieves both the "greater goal" (the primary storyline) and his "private goal" (secondary storyline) at the same time in some way
-the world is changed somehow because of the hero's actions, and the hero himself is changed, too.


Instead of a "story arc substitution trick" this blueprint has "the inner or secondary" and the "outer or primary story line ", tied together by one motive.

Applied to "The Miller's Tale" from The Canterbury Tales, it goes like this:
Act 1:
Nicolas rents a room from the carpenter and lives there, studying astronomy, loitering around. The carpenter marries a young girl and Nicolas wants to lay her ("inner or secondary story line"). She refuses at first, then says okay, but since her husband is jealous, Nicolas is forced into leaving his lazy lifestyle and come up with a plan to get her. Meanwhile we meet Nicolas opponent, another guy interested in nailing the wife. A sleazy singer who hangs around in the local pubs.

Act2:
Nicolas pretends he has read in the stars that a flood comes. He convinces the carpenter to hang up a boat in his house, load it with food and stay there two days until the water comes ("outer or primary story line"). The carpenter does and all three get into the boat that night. Once the carpenter is asleep, Nicolas and the wife get out and do it in the carpenters bed (the most dangerous place of the story for Nicolas). Now the enemy (the singer) comes to the house to get a kiss from the wife. The wife pokes her behind through a hole and he kisses that instead of her face, realizes that and swears revenge. (turns from a drooling admirer to a hater)

Act 3:
The enemy comes back with a hot iron, pretends he has a ring for the wife in exchange for another kiss. This time Nicolas pokes out his behind and gets seriously wounded as the singer hits him with it. Nicolas cries for water to cool his behind, which wakes the carpenter, who is still sleeping in the boat under the roof. He cuts the ropes of the boat and smashes down to the ground, breaking his arm. The town comes together, called in by the screams and decides that the guy is crazy. ignoring all his explanations. Since this is a sarcastic comedy, in this story end all three men are left to be fools, and the pretty wife is left of okay.


If you compare this summary with the story blueprint at the top you see that it matches it precisely. There is no "story arc substitution" but an inner and an outer story coming together at the end. If you see it like that it is much easier to come up with a great storyline than to forcefully try to apply some abstract story arc substitution trick to a story just to create a turning point.

[Chris Grey]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I was wondering if you knew if Merlin had a wife. I saw that he was a "bastard" child and may have disappeared before King Arthur's birth. But I haven't found anything that tells me if he was married. Do you know?

:e2writer:

I seem to recall that Merlin was tricked by a woman, leading to his permanent entrapment. In a cave or whatnot. So yes, yes he was married.

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I was wondering if you knew if Merlin had a wife. I saw that he was a "bastard" child and may have disappeared before King Arthur's birth. But I haven't found anything that tells me if he was married. Do you know?

:e2writer:

No, Merlin wasn't married, but he did have an unfortunate relationship with Vivian (or Ninianne, or Niniane, or Nenyve, or Nimua, or Nimue, or Ninevah).

[HConn]

Would you roll with it, or change Steve's last name?

I'd change it.

Two, how does everybody go about choosing names?

Me, I pull them out of the air. As long as they're interesting and not too similar, I'm happy. I also keep a list of them, and try to have every name start with a different letter.

[FennelGiraffe]

This (http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/) site is from the Social Security office. You can enter the year of birth and it will list the most popular names. It's great for first names.

http://www.babynamewizard.com/voyager uses the same data from Social Security, but in a clever graphical format that's fun to play with.

I try to make up a last name that's similar to one I've heard. If I strike out there, I use a first name and modify it to make it a last name i'e' Robert = Robertson.

Surnames listed by frequency of occurrence, from 1990 US Census data, are at http://www.census.gov/genealogy/names/dist.all.last (all on one long page) and http://names.mongabay.com/ (http://names.mongabay.com/data/1000.html) (more user-friendly).

Genealogy sites are quite useful for surnames listed by ethnicity or country of origin.

To see how common a particular first name/surname combination is, try http://howmanyofme.com/search/.

[Perle_Rare]

I just finished reading my assignment book and I've done the chapter-by-chapter outline.

I can't believe that particular book made it to a bestseller's list. Then again, the author's name is much larger than the book title on the cover. She must have one serious fan base.

Flaws I noticed:
* Some characters are introduced and yet never show up again
* Minor characters feel like they've been put in as fillers. Author needed a homey feeling for the diner so she named the owners and gave them a few lines to say. She needed someone to go retrieve a dog at some point much later in the book, so one of these owners gets the task. Feels contrived. There's other more important characters who could have taken on the job and their presence in that scene would have added some spice and / or drama.
* Missed opportunities: Places where you read and you say to yourself, wouldn't it have been nice if this had been explored a bit more and tied back to the main ideas? Basically, lack of depth. See previous point.
* Characters that sounded like broken records. By the second half of the book, a number of conversations re-hashed things that had already been said. I got the impression the author wanted to clobber me over the head to remind me who said what and what the issues were in case I'd forgotten. I mean, this was a 432 page romance. At that length, I could conceivably have forgotten...
* Much less substance or plot than should have been contained in 432 pages.

I'm not currently writing a romance so I'm thinking of picking a book in my genre (somewhat fantasy-ish) and doing this assignment again. That might be a bit more meaningful for me. Hopefully, I'll pick something worth reading this time... :D

[smsarber]

Lets all pop over here http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124401 and learn about each other. You'll probably be intrigued and touched.

[Jerry B. Flory]

You may want to rethink the way you said that.:scared:

[smsarber]

Okay, I retract the previous statement.

[euclid]

Hey Smsarber: How do those interviews work?

[smoothseas]

I just finished reading my assignment book and I've done the chapter-by-chapter outline.

This sounds like an interesting exercise. What assignment are you referring to? I scrolled back a few pages and didn’t see anything. Is it posted on this thread? What’s the number?

*sitting here thinking I might benefit from doing an exercise like this*

tia

[smsarber]

Here ya go, smoothseas!


It's Saint Nicholas Day!

So, in honor of the holy saint, and because it's that time of year, it's time for this year's Christmas Challenge!


Okay. Go to a used-book store. (This is fun all in itself.) Go to the box where they keep the Really Cheap books. Look through it until you find a book that's labeled as having been a Best Seller or major Award Winner. (Not "by the best-selling author" or "by the award-winning author" -- the book itself has to have won the award or sold the copies.) This should be a book you've never read; preferably one you've never heard of.

Buy it. Try not to pay over fifty cents.

Read the book. Outline it. Chapter by chapter. Keep a list of the characters with a brief description of what each does in the book.

Go, my friends. Finish the outline and character list by Christmas Day.

[smoothseas]

Here ya go, smoothseas!


Why, thank ye, kind sir...

[MumblingSage]

I just finished reading my assignment book and I've done the chapter-by-chapter outline.

I can't believe that particular book made it to a bestseller's list. Then again, the author's name is much larger than the book title on the cover. She must have one serious fan base.

Flaws I noticed:
* Some characters are introduced and yet never show up again
* Minor characters feel like they've been put in as fillers. Author needed a homey feeling for the diner so she named the owners and gave them a few lines to say. She needed someone to go retrieve a dog at some point much later in the book, so one of these owners gets the task. Feels contrived. There's other more important characters who could have taken on the job and their presence in that scene would have added some spice and / or drama.
* Missed opportunities: Places where you read and you say to yourself, wouldn't it have been nice if this had been explored a bit more and tied back to the main ideas? Basically, lack of depth. See previous point.
* Characters that sounded like broken records. By the second half of the book, a number of conversations re-hashed things that had already been said. I got the impression the author wanted to clobber me over the head to remind me who said what and what the issues were in case I'd forgotten. I mean, this was a 432 page romance. At that length, I could conceivably have forgotten...
* Much less substance or plot than should have been contained in 432 pages.

I'm not currently writing a romance so I'm thinking of picking a book in my genre (somewhat fantasy-ish) and doing this assignment again. That might be a bit more meaningful for me. Hopefully, I'll pick something worth reading this time... :D
Which book is it? (Or are you not supposed to tell?)

[Perle_Rare]

I knew the moment I hit "post", that my post would come back to haunt me! :D Someone, please remind me to turn my tongue in my mouth seven times before I start typing!

Anyway, this author is published and I'm not. Heck, I don't even have a completed manuscript yet. So this particular author is way ahead of me in that department and there's nothing indicating her other books aren't amazing novels.

Bottom line, I choose not to tell... and if I'd been wiser, I would have avoided the original post in the first place... sigh... Live and learn...

[Yeshanu]

Hey Smsarber: How do those interviews work?

I'm not Steve, but I'll answer:

It started here (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122920), euclid. Those who wished to participate chose a subject or two or four, and asked them a whole bunch of questions about themselves. We then posted the results, all on the same day.

If you missed the first go-round, don't worry. I think there's a movement afoot to do it all again some time. :)

[Yeshanu]

I knew the moment I hit "post", that my post would come back to haunt me! :D Someone, please remind me to turn my tongue in my mouth seven times before I start typing!

Anyway, this author is published and I'm not. Heck, I don't even have a completed manuscript yet. So this particular author is way ahead of me in that department and there's nothing indicating her other books aren't amazing novels.

Bottom line, I choose not to tell... and if I'd been wiser, I would have avoided the original post in the first place... sigh... Live and learn...

Live and learn is right, Perle. Just because she's published doesn't mean she's perfect, and I always find it instructive to pick out things I'd change in bestsellers to make them, IMHO, just a little bit better.

Now, since she's a best-selling author, it might be instructive to go back and read the book again, this time looking for what it is about her books that attracts readers. What is she doing right?

All to often, we take criticism to mean we have to find something wrong with what we're criticizing, but criticism means looking at something critically, not nit-picking to find out what's wrong.

[James D. Macdonald]

Just because she's published doesn't mean she's perfect....

Many years ago, when I did reviews in an apazine, I used to end each review with "...but (s)he's a better writer than I am; (s)he's published."

Seriously, no biggie. You don't have to be published to have an opinion about a piece of published fiction. Thousands and thousands of people who aren't published, never will be, and don't want to be, have opinions about published works. Every single day.

They're called "readers." They're our masters.



Now, since she's a best-selling author, it might be instructive to go back and read the book again, this time looking for what it is about her books that attracts readers. What is she doing right?

It might be more instructive to read that author's first published work.

[Wolvel]

Like the old saying goes one mans trash another mans treasure.

Plain and simple you may not like it but someone else out there will. Don't try to stress on it just create your own idividual work the best you can and worry about that.

As to opinions its okay to have them about anything you see in public, its out there so its fair game.

[Perle_Rare]

Thousands and thousands of people who aren't published, never will be, and don't want to be, have opinions about published works. Every single day.

They're called "readers." They're our masters.


True. But a few weeks ago, I read a thread here at AW where people were bashing Christopher Paolini and his latest book. Strangely enough, the majority of bashers freely admitted they hadn't read and had no plan to read said book. That left a sour taste in my mouth.

My post was meant in a "I read a random bestseller and was amazed at " way.To publicize the title and author would, I think, lead too easily to book / author bashing and that wasn't my intent.


It might be more instructive to read that author's [I]first published work.

I'm going to look for that. It would, indeed, be quite enlightening.

Like the old saying goes one mans trash another mans treasure.

I fully agree!

[BlueLucario]

Actually. I recieved an email offering all authors, published or non published free interviews which can help them with promoting both their books and themselves as authors.

What do you think?

[CaroGirl]

Actually. I recieved an email offering all authors, published or non published free interviews which can help them with promoting both their books and themselves as authors.

What do you think?
Nothing that comes unsolicited by email can ever possibly be legitimate. Not in this lifetime or in any other. That's what I think.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

True. But a few weeks ago, I read a thread here at AW where people were bashing Christopher Paolini and his latest book. Strangely enough, the majority of bashers freely admitted they hadn't read and had no plan to read said book. That left a sour taste in my mouth.

My post was meant in a "I read a random bestseller and was amazed at [insert technical details]" way.To publicize the title and author would, I think, lead too easily to book / author bashing and that wasn't my intent.



I'm going to look for that. It would, indeed, be quite enlightening.



I fully agree!

I haven't read Brisingr, and have no plans to read it, even though we have copies of all three books in the house.

I don't like Christopher Paolini's writing. I say this not because I've read any of his books, because in the strictest sense I haven't; but because I tried to read Eragon and couldn't. I tried one of his books, didn't like the writing and won't read another because of it.

That's because I ran into what I see as one of the biggest writer-killers out there: having read a book by that author before and NOT liked it.

My own take is that different writers are skilled at different aspects of writing, and no two readers apply the same importance to each of those aspects. I think that best-selling but critically panned writers like Christopher Paolini do some things well, and other things less well. Their readers are attracted to what they do well, while their detractors can't get past the things they don't do as well.

There you go: my two cents.

[Yeshanu]

It might be more instructive to read that author's first published work.


Good point.

[Perle_Rare]

* goes back to what she does best: lurking *

[Yeshanu]

I haven't read Brisingr, and have no plans to read it, even though we have copies of all three books in the house.

I don't like Christopher Paolini's writing. I say this not because I've read any of his books, because in the strictest sense I haven't; but because I tried to read Eragon and couldn't. I tried one of his books, didn't like the writing and won't read another because of it.

That's because I ran into what I see as one of the biggest writer-killers out there: having read a book by that author before and NOT liked it.

My own take is that different writers are skilled at different aspects of writing, and no two readers apply the same importance to each of those aspects. I think that best-selling but critically panned writers like Christopher Paolini do some things well, and other things less well. Their readers are attracted to what they do well, while their detractors can't get past the things they don't do as well.

There you go: my two cents.


It may just be Eragon I try to read over Christmas, because I'm curious. I picked it up a while ago, and couldn't get past the first paragraph, which is truly awful.

But I also read the first paragraph of Brisingr, and found he'd improved quite a bit, if one can judge a book by its first paragraph.

I'm very curious about this fairly new young adult market that seems to be springing up. It's huge--it's made millionaires of JK Rowling, Stephanie Meyer, and Christopher Paolini. Tamora Pierce is up there, too, though not at the top, and I'm curious about that, because technically, she's the best writer of the lot. The writer of the Artemis Fowl series is in touch with these readers, too.

These 12-year-old to early-twenties girls and women are huge fans of books. They consume fantasy like chocolate. I work with them. They don't come to work without a book in their hand. I have one of them at home. If she's not online or with her boyfriend, she's reading. You never see them without a book. New Moon or Harry Potter or Brisingr or whatever's on tap this month.

I want to write for that market. I think I can do well at it. But it differs from the adult fantasy market in subtle ways, gender being one. Technical facility takes back seat to ????

Story? Character?

Still trying to figure out what makes these books tick...

Anyhow, if anyone has any insights, I'd appreciate it. I'll stop rambling now...

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I completely understand about the size of the market, we have a sixteen-year-old girl at home who just devoured the entire Twilight series in under a week-- then turned around to reread the last one DESPITE the fact the ending sucked (her opinion not mine).

I don't know what it is for certain, though I don't think it's technical skill. My best guess is that it's something I want to call 'resonance.' These books are written in such a way that they resonate with the teenage experience. I think they put thoughts in their character's heads that are very similar if not identical to the thoughts their readers have, and that's one of the big draws.

They're also often wish-fulfillment stories, and while that may not appeal to adults, the teenage mindset is very different. Put a character they connect with in a wish-fulfillment situation and you draw them in like flies to honey; at least that's my guess.

As to Tamora Pierce's relative lack of success, it may be that she's too technically proficient a writer. Technical smoothness may not go over quite as well with readers whose emotions are dialed up to eleven.

Just my opinion of course.

[smsarber]

That kind of reminds me of Judy Blume. She wrote a lot of different books with a diverse subject matter, but it was still mostly teenage slush. NOT MEANT DEROGATORY IN ANY WAY. Anyway, here was a forty year old woman who had no problem geeting into teenager's heads.
James Patterson is of course known for his crime thrillers, but he has a teeny-bopper series, the Maximum Ride series. I loved the first Max Ride book. But he didn't tone down the technicality of his writing for it. So I don't think the technical aspect is the issue. It's just knowing, again, how to get into a teeage mind. I will humbly step down from my soap box now.

[bsolah]

I'm very curious about this fairly new young adult market that seems to be springing up. It's huge--it's made millionaires of JK Rowling, Stephanie Meyer, and Christopher Paolini. Tamora Pierce is up there, too, though not at the top, and I'm curious about that, because technically, she's the best writer of the lot. The writer of the Artemis Fowl series is in touch with these readers, too.

I'm very curious too. I once had an idea for a YA book, but for a much younger age, I think. Think Goosebumps and how big they were.

My 15-year-old sister is obsessed with Twilight. She gobbled up Harry Potter. It's true, this demographic is far larger than any other, and the popularity of these books to teens, seems to spread. Think of all the adults you know that read Harry Potter after all of the teens were already raving about it.

[Judg]

My own take is that different writers are skilled at different aspects of writing, and no two readers apply the same importance to each of those aspects. I think that best-selling but critically panned writers like Christopher Paolini do some things well, and other things less well. Their readers are attracted to what they do well, while their detractors can't get past the things they don't do as well.

There you go: my two cents.
Worth more than two cents. You've nailed it. I've slogged through a bestseller or two, gritting my teeth, trying to figure out what they did right. Wish fulfillment is a huge "right" and not just for teenagers. What is half of Tom Clancy's stuff, if not wish fulfillment for conservatives? Or Conan the Barbarian for wannabe muscle men? Or Danielle Steele for bored women? Or... but you get the idea. It makes for great sales, if not for great literature.

[Arkie]

I completely understand about the size of the market, we have a sixteen-year-old girl at home who just devoured the entire Twilight series in under a week-- then turned around to reread the last one DESPITE the fact the ending sucked (her opinion not mine).

I don't know what it is for certain, though I don't think it's technical skill. My best guess is that it's something I want to call 'resonance.' These books are written in such a way that they resonate with the teenage experience. I think they put thoughts in their character's heads that are very similar if not identical to the thoughts their readers have, and that's one of the big draws.

They're also often wish-fulfillment stories, and while that may not appeal to adults, the teenage mindset is very different. Put a character they connect with in a wish-fulfillment situation and you draw them in like flies to honey; at least that's my guess.

As to Tamora Pierce's relative lack of success, it may be that she's too technically proficient a writer. Technical smoothness may not go over quite as well with readers whose emotions are dialed up to eleven.

Just my opinion of course.

I havn't read Paolini or Meyer, but now I'm getting very curious. My local Barnes and Noble has two 20-foot windows on the interior hallway of the mall. One window has nothing but Brisinger stacked like cordwood and the other has more Brisinger and the rest of the window is stacked full of Meyer's books.

[Yeshanu]

I havn't read Paolini or Meyer, but now I'm getting very curious. My local Barnes and Noble has two 20-foot windows on the interior hallway of the mall. One window has nothing but Brisinger stacked like cordwood and the other has more Brisinger and the rest of the window is stacked full of Meyer's books.

And I'll be totally honest and say that one day I want it to be MY books that are stacked up like cordwood in the windows of major bookstores. :)

I think Judg is right--wish fulfillment is a big thing amongst readers of best-sellers. I know that for me, I do like a happy ending, with things neatly tied up.

But the ending of the last book in the Twilight series was just a little too neat, and a little too easy for me. After reading the last book (but not the other three) I can easily see the appeal of the series. But she did make it far too easy on the characters in that last book. They should have had to fight for their happily ever after. And I think most of her readers, while still loyal, recognize that fault in the book.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

Worth more than two cents. You've nailed it. I've slogged through a bestseller or two, gritting my teeth, trying to figure out what they did right. Wish fulfillment is a huge "right" and not just for teenagers. What is half of Tom Clancy's stuff, if not wish fulfillment for conservatives? Or Conan the Barbarian for wannabe muscle men? Or Danielle Steele for bored women? Or... but you get the idea. It makes for great sales, if not for great literature.

Modern Conan pastiches, definitely wish-fulfillment, Howard's original stuff has more to it.

[IdiotsRUs]

Modern Conan pastiches, definitely wish-fulfillment, Howard's original stuff has more to it.

Well it might have been wish fulfilment for Howard. This is a man who killed himself because he was told his mother was on her deathbed. You could make a case that Conan was the ultimate in Anti-Mummy's Boy.

[Shweta]

As to Tamora Pierce's relative lack of success, it may be that she's too technically proficient a writer. Technical smoothness may not go over quite as well with readers whose emotions are dialed up to eleven.

Er. Have you read Tamora Pierce? She's not averse to emotion going up to eleven -- hell, she gets me there :D

I'd guess her issue, insofar as she has an issue, has been mostly publicity. I've yet to put a Tamora Pierce or Diana Wynne Jones book into the hands of a teen and have them not like it; they've just never heard of 'em if they're not already SF/F readers checking those shelves.

And lately her covers have had more mass appeal I think, but the earlier round, though I like the art, were very much "This Is A Sword And Sorcery Book"

Also. I heard her on a panel at Wiscon this year, and she was saying that... I think it was the Texas librarians?... had a tendency to freak out about the subject matter of her books, which I'm guessing doesn't help their sales. But she writes what she'll write, even if she could get better sales by fluffing the books out.

So... yeah, lots of factors involved here.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

Well it might have been wish fulfilment for Howard. This is a man who killed himself because he was told his mother was on her deathbed. You could make a case that Conan was the ultimate in Anti-Mummy's Boy.

Yes he did kill himself shortly before (a matter of hours) Hester Howard died; but that does not mean he killed himself because he couldn't face a life without her. From his letters and conversations there is evidence that he'd always intended to die by suicide and that he simply waited until he was sure his mother no longer needed his services as a caregiver before taking his own life.

He was a much better and more rounded writer than people like Christopher Paolini or Stephenie Meyer, and the Conan stories were only a small fraction of his output, which spanned multiple genres.

[IdiotsRUs]

Yes he did kill himself shortly before (a matter of hours) Hester Howard died; but that does not mean he killed himself because he couldn't face a life without her. From his letters and conversations there is evidence that he'd always intended to die by suicide and that he simply waited until he was sure his mother no longer needed his services as a caregiver before taking his own life.

Oh I wasn't saying I agreed with that view. But I was saying that I have seen that case put forward as to why he wrote such macho men, and that a case could be made for Conan being his wish-fulfilment. Because either way, his mother had a HUGE role in his life, far more than many grown men. It might have even been for him 'If my mother had not been so ill I could have been...'

I mean I don't know about you, but I write stories that fulfil me. Which means that there probably is an element of wish fulfilment in it for me. Yes, I wish I lived in a world with dragons!

Personally I don't really care why someone wrote something, only if I enjoy it. And I love the Conan stories so much I almost named my daughter Valeria :)

[Yeshanu]

And lately her covers have had more mass appeal I think, but the earlier round, though I like the art, were very much "This Is A Sword And Sorcery Book"

Also. I heard her on a panel at Wiscon this year, and she was saying that... I think it was the Texas librarians?... had a tendency to freak out about the subject matter of her books, which I'm guessing doesn't help their sales. But she writes what she'll write, even if she could get better sales by fluffing the books out.


Cover art is a big issue here--the old-style sword-and-sorcery covers were meant to attract male readers, and that's not who these books are aimed at.

As for subject matter, it's entirely true that her books cover more "earthy" topics (like menstruation and sex) than the popular ones.

But another problem might be her tendency to make the female MC the only MC. I love her books, but when I asked my daughter (who's twenty) what the appeal of Twilight and such books were to females her age, she mentioned that the male MC was sensitive and moody, as well as being strong in his own way. Some of Tamora's books don't even have a male MC, and those that do have him take a definite backseat to the female.

Thinking on the page here, but I think I may be on to something... :)

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Happy Holidays! I was wondering. If the MC wakes up and notices white bed linens that the MC was sleeping on, is that the same thing as waking up in a white room?

[smsarber]

Hi Uncle Jim,

If the MC wakes up and notices white bed linens that the MC was sleeping on, is that the same thing as waking up in a white room?
Not if the linens are white, but the room is painted tapioca, eggshell, blue, green, etc... Our room's white, but our linens are flowered, as well as the comforter (not my idea, blame my family, it was a gift).
Happy Holidays to you as well!

[Makai_Lightning]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Happy Holidays! I was wondering. If the MC wakes up and notices white bed linens that the MC was sleeping on, is that the same thing as waking up in a white room?

If your MC is white, is that the same thing as waking up in a white room?

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Happy Holidays! I was wondering. If the MC wakes up and notices white bed linens that the MC was sleeping on, is that the same thing as waking up in a white room?

Why are they white?

If the fact they're white doesn't reveal character, support the theme, or advance the plot -- don't tell us they're white. Let the reader imagine pale-blue (since if the readers do so, it'll be because pale-blue is important to them).

[emeraldcite]

Give the linens some yellow stains. That'll give it some character...

[smsarber]

Then be sure to put a half-empty coffee cup by the bed!;)

[James D. Macdonald]

Is the coffee cup half-empty or half-full?

(Neither; the cup is poorly designed for the available volume of coffee.)

[Andrew Jameson]

Or perhaps the coffee-delivery system is poorly calibrated to the available volume in the cup.

Which alternative you perceive depends on your temperment.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Yeah it's me. :hi: If you were at the bookstore and saw the title: Lorelei's Second Chance. What would you think?

[smsarber]

Not much, unless I knew anything about her First Run at Things.

[James D. Macdonald]

If you were at the bookstore and saw the title: Lorelei's Second Chance. What would you think?

It would depend on the cover art, of course, but I'd think "Romance."

[Sailor Kenshin]

I'd think of a fantasy revolving around that old sailor myth, with maybe a comedic touch.

[euclid]

Been out and bought in some reading for the holidays:

John le Carre, A Most Wanted Man
David Baldacci, Divine Justice
Alan Furst, The Polish Officer
Evelyn Waugh, Men at Arms
John Banville, The Book of Evidence
Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

Should keep me out of mischief for a while!

[robbwindow]

So let me ask you this, when in the revision stage of a ms do you write something new for 2 hrs or just spend days and hrs revising?

Well, it varies. I usually have three projects going at any time, in various stages of finished.

For revisions I take the manuscript (printout) and red pencils and go somewhere entirely different than my normal workspace (sometimes the kitchen, but my favorite is a nice little French coffeeshop down the road a bit) and scribble. After I've done two hours of writing, there's a solid 22 more hours in the day for revising other material.

One trick to revision -- is to read the work aloud. Where you stumble, the reader will stumble. You'll notice different things, too, when you're reading aloud. You're using a different part of your brain than you are when reading silently.

We're not at revision yet, though. First we need the text.

Did I mention that you need to make multiple backups of all your material if you're working on a computer?

I'll give you a minute to make a backup of whatever you wrote today.

See you when you've done.

Thanks James reading aloud and scribbling over a coffee in a different environment s very helpful.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

Let me second, third and fourth the multiple backups routines.

Personally I'm absolutely terrible at remembering to back things up, so I've completely automated the process. I run two computers: desktop and laptop; both running Windows Live Sync which mirrors my _Writing directory on both computers. That gives me my primary backup and allows me to work on any document on either computer as they're always synchronized. My secondary backup is a free iDrive account which gives me 2GB of cloud storage with a continuous backup option enabled.

This gives me a layered backup without needing to remember anything.

[Perle_Rare]

It would depend on the cover art, of course, but I'd think "Romance."

Funny. I almost replied the same before your post. But once I started thinking about it, I wasn't able to explain either to the original poster or even to myself why I automatically felt it was a romance story.

I still can't figure it out.

[Don]

Funny. I almost replied the same before your post. But once I started thinking about it, I wasn't able to explain either to the original poster or even to myself why I automatically felt it was a romance story.

I still can't figure it out.
I think it's a combination of the girly-girl name and the 'Second Chance' that gives it the light romance feel for me. I'm thinking something like 'Sweet Home Alabama' or 'Hope Floats'. (My DW made me watch them :D)

[Shweta]

I think it's a combination of the girly-girl name and the 'Second Chance' that gives it the light romance feel for me. I'm thinking something like 'Sweet Home Alabama' or 'Hope Floats'. (My DW made me watch them :D)

Love how it's a girly-girl name that has its origins in a water spirit who lured sailors to their deaths :)

[euclid]

If you were at the bookstore and saw the title: Lorelei's Second Chance. What would you think?

We had a short family conference about this. Lorelei is a middle-aged woman who spurned her best chance at love and happiness when she was young (and incredibly beautiful). The book concerns her second (and last) chance at happiness (probably with a confidence trickster)

:)

[Ken Schneider]

Lorelei's college days were filled with parties, plenty of boys, and friends for life. One secret held between friends on a night gone wrong, sends Lorelei on a downward sprial into a black pit of depression.

Love lost, disowned by family and friends; Lorelei commits suicide. Like her life to this point, this also failed, and in the months to come she would thank the heavens for the second chance.

Lorelie's second chance is a harrowing, sorrow filled, yet feel good story of a journey back to self respect, vindication, and reunion with the those she loves.

[Perle_Rare]

The book concerns her second (and last)* chance at happiness (probably with a confidence trickster)

:)

* emphasis mine

It's totally beyond me how anyone could know enough about the future to state that this second chance is guaranteed to be the very last one. Unless, of course, Lorelei suffers from a terminal illness which can only be reversed through an organ transplant and her chance at happiness depends on the whims of a person who also happens to be the only compatible organ-donor.

[James D. Macdonald]

The little girl stood shivering. "Please mister, buy a chance?"

Fred paused. "What's it for?"

"I gotta sell them. By midnight. All of them."

"I mean, what's it a chance on?" The neon light in the bar's window buzzed and flashed on and off.

"Only a buck, mister. Only a buck."

A dollar wasn't much. "How many do you have to sell, sweetie?"

"My name's Lorelei. Not 'sweetie.' Lorelei. I gotta sell two. Just two chances. I sold one already. Now I gotta sell the other one." She looked down. "I gotta sell it by midnight."

[nevada]

* emphasis mine

It's totally beyond me how anyone could know enough about the future to state that this second chance is guaranteed to be the very last one.

because novel writing is all about last chances. The fate of the world depends on the hero succeeding. If he fails the world as we know it will end. Nobody wants to read if at first you don't succeed, try try again. Where is the tension in that? If we know that if he fails, he can try again ad infinitum, why should the reader care?

It's always about last chances. If Lorelei gets a lifetime of dating guy after guy where is the conflict? where is the tension? I want to know that there are some important stakes involved in the story I'm reading. So yes, I want it to be Lorelei's last chance. I want a sense of importance.

[euclid]

The little girl stood shivering. "Please mister, buy a chance?"

Fred paused. "What's it for?"

"I gotta sell them. By midnight. All of them."

"I mean, what's it a chance on?" The neon light in the bar's window buzzed and flashed on and off.

"Only a buck, mister. Only a buck."

A dollar wasn't much. "How many do you have to sell, sweetie?"

"My name's Lorelei. Not 'sweetie.' Lorelei. I gotta sell two. Just two chances. I sold one already. Now I gotta sell the other one." She looked down. "I gotta sell it by midnight."

He took out his fob watch and flipped it open. Eleven fifty-seven.

He handed her a silver dollar.

She took the coin eagerly, and slipped a grubby piece of paper into his hand. The flickering light reflected in her tear-filled eyes, but she was smiling. The smile alone was worth a whole mess of dollars.

Fred strode into the bar and ordered a sarsaparilla.

"Sorry sir," the bartender said through greasy whiskers, "we're clear outa sars'parilla."

"Give me a whiskey, so," Fred growled.

Two hours later, they threw him out of the bar. He picked himself up, dusted the dirt from his chaps, and turned his throbbing head towards home.

After two blocks he came across the little girl again, shivering in a doorway.

"Please Mister, buy a chance?"

[James D. Macdonald]

I wasn't able to explain either to the original poster or even to myself why I automatically felt it was a romance story.


Because Harlequin has an entire line called "Second Chance at Love."

[Yeshanu]

A while back we were talking about first pages. For an example of a first page that "gets" me, click on Uncle Jim's sig.

Yes, I definitely want to know what the crocodile is doing in the middle of this guy's kitchen, and if I've got money left over after doing all my Christmas shopping, I'm going to find out. :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Q. What do angry mice send each other on Christmas?

A. Cross mouse cards.

[blacbird]

Q. What do angry mice send each other on Christmas?

A. Cross mouse cards.

My soul now hurts.

caw

[Don]

Q. What do angry mice send each other on Christmas?

A. Cross mouse cards.
Gah! This from a man who I've followed through 7500 posts because he's a professional. :roll:

Merry Christmas anyway, Uncle Jim!!!

[Makai_Lightning]

Q. What do angry mice send each other on Christmas?

A. Cross mouse cards.
Is it sad that I had to read that three times to get it? :p

Alas. Merry Chrismass, and Happy Chanaka to all.

[smsarber]

:ROFL::Clap::Wha::rolleyes:

[Yeshanu]

Merry Cross Mouse, all! :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Hey, everyone! Merry, Joyous, and Happy, as appropriate.

Now it's time for Christmas Challenge 2008, Part Two.

By now everyone has a complete plot outline and character list for a best-selling and/or award-winning novel.

Now: Retell the story with one of the minor characters as main character. It's the same plot. The same events happen, but your main character only knows about the events that he/she witnesses. At the same time, that character will have events happen to/around him/her that weren't in the original book at all. (Some characters will vanish; simultaneously you'll need to create other new ones.)

Think Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead or The Wind Done Gone.

At the same time: Change all the names, and change the setting. (E.g. if the novel you chose was set in a hospital in the American south in 1967, set the re-imagining in a Spanish cloister in the 17th century. Extra points for changing genre (e.g. murder mystery to romance).)

You don't need to actually write the novel, but you should write a strong outline. Your deadline is January 6th.

Ready, set, go!

[James D. Macdonald]

What, did everyone get stunned into silence?

[Calliopenjo]

What, did everyone get stunned into silence?

Hi Uncle Jim,

I've just been busy tweaking my story, attempting to create the picture of a spoiled rich girl without making her sound whiny and immature. I failed the first, I don't know. . . three tries, I'm going to see if this works. Then I have two other stories in limbo. Happy Holidays!

[FOTSGreg]

I could do that for my book Hatchings - it might be fun to try to tell the story from the POV of a minor character who turns traitor to the hero and gets gunned down by assassins trying to kill the hero in the climax. It might also be interesting to tell the story from the POV of the hero's super-agent sidekick/mentor or the mentor's rival agent or even the POV of the guys who kicked the whole disaster the hero finds unfolding around him while trying to do something that would benefit the whole world.

Decisions, decisions...

[blacbird]

How does this exercise differ from fanfiction?

(Which, having been said, I hereby confess to be working on not one, but two novels narrated from the standpoints of secondary characters in famous classic novels; one is about half done, the other about 15,000 words along. Both currently suck.)

caw

[euclid]

What, did everyone get stunned into silence?

I have given this some thought, trying to work out the point of the exercise. I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this. It seems an awfully convoluted way of coming up with an outline for a book. I think it might be more useful to move one step back from the original and extract the essence (action) of each chapter. This could then be used as a structure for a new book with totally new characters and a new plot, maybe?

I watched Die Hard 4 on TV yesterday or the day before. That film would convert into a total page-turner of a book (thriller) and its structure could be a useful framework for a thriller.

How does this exercise differ from fanfiction?

What is fanfiction? I have written two short stories in the style of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle featuring Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson. Is this fanfiction? or is it something else?

PS I am presuming that I can never get those two stories published for reasons of copyright (even if I change the names of the charaters). Is that correct, Jim?

[bpmann]

What is fanfiction? I have written two short stories in the style of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle featuring Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson. Is this fanfiction? or is it something else?

PS I am presuming that I can never get those two stories published for reasons of copyright (even if I change the names of the charaters). Is that correct, Jim?

Holmes is in the public domain. Fred Saberhagen did a whole series of Dracula (also public domain) books, and in a couple of them, The Holmes-Dracula File is the one I remember, has Holmes vs. Dracula.

Brian

[James D. Macdonald]

I think it might be more useful to move one step back from the original and extract the essence (action) of each chapter.

We already did that in the first part of this exercise (see 6 December).


This could then be used as a structure for a new book with totally new characters and a new plot, maybe?


That's what we're doing right now. As to new plot ... I don't know. Are there any new plots?

[James D. Macdonald]

How does this exercise differ from fanfiction?

We don't have the same setting, and we don't have the same character names.

I think you'll find that giving the characters new names, putting them in a different time and place, and looking at the adventures of a minor character will give you something that's uniquely yours.

[James D. Macdonald]

Holmes is in the public domain.

There's a minefield here. If I recall correctly only some of the Sherlock Holmes stories are PD, so you can't refer to characters, items, or events from the later stories. Also, huge amounts of material that everyone thinks of as Sherlock Holmes don't come from the stories at all, but from movies which are still under copyright. (An example of that is the Calabash pipe. The Holmes of the stories smoked a short black brier pipe.)

For an example of a Sherlock Holmes story set in a different time and place with different character names, see Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose.

[euclid]

There's a minefield here. If I recall correctly only some of the Sherlock Holmes stories are PD, so you can't refer to characters, items, or events from the later stories. Also, huge amounts of material that everyone thinks of as Sherlock Holmes don't come from the stories at all, but from movies which are still under copyright. (An example of that is the Calabash pipe. The Holmes of the stories smoked a short black brier pipe.)

For an example of a Sherlock Holmes story set in a different time and place with different character names, see Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose.

In my stories, I have named the characters Soames and Wilson. Their housekeeper and the police inspector have new names, too. Is that enough to get around any copyright difficulties?

It would be obvious to anyone reading the material who the main characters are. For example, Soames says things like: "Elementary, my dear Wilson." My sister read one of the stories and said: "It's much too like Sherlock Holmes."

[euclid]

For an example of a Sherlock Holmes story set in a different time and place with different character names, see Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose.

You must be kidding! I would say the only similarity is that you have a detective with a sidekick and a deductive process. Why do you say it is a SH story?

[Nakhlasmoke]

I've just seen part one of the exercise now, so I'm way behind.

I'm using a book that keeps getting recommended to me and that I end up getting annoyed with every time I try to read it. (It's rather in love with its own voice, and I get frustrated by the preciousness of of its poetry)

Interestingly, even though I'm only half way through the first chapter, I'm amazed at how this writer makes every character (even the minor ones) so fleshed out and rounded. Certainly, if nothing else, I'll have learned something there.

[Yeshanu]

I'm still reading (this thread, that is) but I'm working 52 hours this week plus preaching, so regrettably I won't be able to complete the assignment.

As far as the assignment goes, my own understanding of fanfic is something written using someone else's characters and world. If you do the exercise and don't change the setting or character names, I'd class it as fanfic. If you do change the setting and character names, but extract the plot and basic characteristics of the characters, it's a derivative work.

By that standard, if you write a story about Sherlock and Dr. Watson, regardless of whether it's public domain or not, it's still fanfic in my opinion, because you're using someone else's characters and someone else's world.

I'm not one of those who believes that writing fanfic is necessarily a bad thing. It's the way a lot of beginning writers hone their skills before moving on to something truly original, just as fantasy writers of my vintage often started off with Dungeons and Dragons stories.

It may not be publishable, but then, most first novels (and second and third) aren't.

[James D. Macdonald]

I would say the only similarity is that you have a detective with a sidekick and a deductive process. Why do you say it is a SH story?

A detective named William of Baskerville, as in Hound of the Baskervilles. The story is told by Baskerville's companion, Adso (i.e. (W)atso(n)).

[James D. Macdonald]

In my stories, I have named the characters Soames and Wilson.

As in House and Wilson (from the TV series House)? (House=Holmes, Wilson=Watson in that series. Instead of being detectives in Victorian London, they're doctors in a modern American hospital.)

Read these two sentences together:

"It would be obvious to anyone reading the material who the main characters are. "

"Is that enough to get around any copyright difficulties?"

I think you have your answer.

For another example of Holmes under a different name, see Solar Pons.


My sister read one of the stories and said: "It's much too like Sherlock Holmes."

I think your sister has a point. What are you bringing to the table that Sir Arthur didn't already serve? Try calling them Younger and Reynolds, and putting them in Berkley, California, in 1967. See what that does for your story.

[James D. Macdonald]

If you do change the setting and character names, but extract the plot and basic characteristics of the characters, it's a derivative work.


To one degree or another any novel is a derivative of other novels. All art is in conversation with other art.

[Cyia]

What is fanfiction? I have written two short stories in the style of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle featuring Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson. Is this fanfiction? or is it something else?


That's not exactly the same as Fanfiction.

Fanfiction is simply a fictional work written inside an established work using its established characters and settings by someone who isn't the original author. These are things that can't be sold for profit because they're under copyright, but people do it for fun, a tool, a hobby or an obsession.

Don't like the way a TV show ended? Easy... rewrite it.

Have a favorite minor character in a movie that you would have loved to see fleshed out? Do it.

Read a book that you think would have been served better by a different POV? Cool... give it a shot.

Check out fanfiction.net if you want to read some - they have divisions for Movies, TV, Books, etc.

Personally, I've found it's a great way to work on writing techniques. If you need help establishing a "voice", pick a character that you're familiar with from TV or a movie and try writing about 5000 words with them, then post it for feedback. The readers will tell you if you're Out of Character or not, and once you've got a handle on keeping a consistant voice, you can apply that to your own writing.

The same holds true for plot development. I had a few plots that I wanted to road test, so I fit them to an existing "fanverse", subed the verse's charries / locations for mine and checked to see if there were any noticable holes. I took the feedback I was given, scrubbed off the attributes from the copyrighted work and put them back into my own WIP. (Of course about a dozen of the "ficcers" jacked one of my original characters :rant:but at least that means they liked him.)

I'll warn you though, most "fanfiction" is drivel ... on a good day. It's often written as Mary Sue wish fulfillment fantasies by people who want to engage in relationships with a fictional character (or actor, singer, whatever) they fantasize about.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'll warn you though, most "fanfiction" is drivel ... on a good day.

That's one of the reasons I recommend reading fifty stories in a row from Fanfiction.net to simulate the slush-reading experience that agents and editors go through.

[Ken Schneider]

I think your sister has a point. What are you bringing to the table that Sir Arthur didn't already serve? Try calling them Younger and Reynolds, and putting them in Berkley, California, in 1967. See what that does for your story.

Too predictable. We'd know what Younger/Holmes was smoking in his pipe.

[smsarber]

But you could change the setting to Blingern, Saturn, 500 earth-years in the future. THAT could be interesting! And Holmes could be from Earth, while Watson is from Mercury. He's absolutely freezing to death in Saturn's cold climate.

[euclid]

But you could change the setting to Blingern, Saturn

...yet, Embrig Spaceport on Mandeyn.

[Cyia]

That's one of the reasons I recommend reading fifty stories in a row from Fanfiction.net to simulate the slush-reading experience that agents and editors go through.

That's just scary. (Of course alot of what's written on FFn gets "OMG you should be writing novels" tagged to it at some point, so I guess that's an accurate comparison.)

[James D. Macdonald]

...yet, Embrig Spaceport on Mandeyn.

Embrig Spaceport on Mandeyn was based closely on Cartagena, Colombia. (Other places you can look for include Willemstad, Curacao, and Howard Air Force Base, Panama.)

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Is there such a thing as peaceful serenity? Or is it like saying great big huge?

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Is there such a thing as peaceful serenity? Or is it like saying great big huge?

Well, is there such a thing stormy serenity? A hawkish serenity?

[maestrowork]

Well, is there such a thing stormy serenity? A hawkish serenity?

Knowing Serenity, I think so. ;)

/* runs away from Serenity */

[Serenity]

Knowing Serenity, I think so. ;)

/* runs away from Serenity */


:roll:Hahahaha... uh... HEY, wait a minute!!! :rant:

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

It used to be that alright meant that a person was well nothing was wrong. All right literally meant is everyone well. One person vs. a group. Then alright was considered a lazy way of saying all right and not everybody agreed with its use. I read somewhere that alright is no longer considered passable if you choose to use it in your story because it's considered lazy.

After all of that, my question is: Should alright be changed to all right? Or should I consider its usage?

[James D. Macdonald]

"Alright" is a non-standard variant of "all right."

The copyeditor will change "alright" to "all right" unless you specify otherwise in your style sheet.

[Makai_Lightning]

"Alright" is a non-standard variant of "all right."

The copyeditor will change "alright" to "all right" unless you specify otherwise in your style sheet.


...Style sheet?

[Palmfrond]

...Style sheet?

If you don't specify exactly what non-standard usage you are using in your novel, your copyeditor will do so. He/she will generate a list of character names, invented words, and other usage not in the publisher's style manual (often related to the Chicago Manual of Style). This allows you and the publisher to agree on which rules you are going to break, and to break them consistently.

[Lavinia]

James- Thanks for all of this. It's really great. I'm reading several pages of posts a day until I'm done. I'll take breaks if information needs time to marinate. But this is really fabulous! I see that you recommend joining a critique group or writer's workshop. In my town, there is a writer's group but it is for Christian writers. I have nothing against Christian writing, but it's not what I write. I went to it for a while and it was very beneficial. There were three or four ladies out of maybe ten that are published authors (though not widely). But honestly, most had not kept up with the "information super highway."

Anyway- there is not a group that really fits my needs here in town. It is an artsy town so I know there are writers out there. Do you think I should try to start a group? If so, can you tell me what things would be important for me to do, or think about in setting it up? It's a scary proposition for me, but I'd be willing to do it.

Thanks again, James. ~Karen

[bsolah]

Do you think I should try to start a group? If so, can you tell me what things would be important for me to do, or think about in setting it up? It's a scary proposition for me, but I'd be willing to do it.

I'd also love to hear from someone who's started a writing group from scratch and how they went about it.

[euclid]

In the bookshop the other day I found a newly released book called "Undertow" (Can't remember the author's name - sorry). In the secondhand bookshop next door, I found an old book called "Undertow" by Tom Foote.

What is the legal position on book titles? Does it matter if my book title has been used before by another author?

[MumblingSage]

In the bookshop the other day I found a newly released book called "Undertow" (Can't remember the author's name - sorry). In the secondhand bookshop next door, I found an old book called "Undertow" by Tom Foote.

What is the legal position on book titles? Does it matter if my book title has been used before by another author?

Speaking from my experiances at the library shelves, this seems to be somewhat common. For more proof of this, try doing a google search or searching a library catalog for a particularily vague title. 'Kindred Spirits' had something like 16 hits in my library system, in genres from fantasy to romance to historical suspense.

[nevada]

Titles can not be copywrit (copyrighted?) and so anyone can use any title they like. although I expect titles like Star Wars are trademarked so don't use that one. lol Use any title you like, although if you find there was a huge best seller with the same title as yours, you might consider changing yours, just so there's no confusion. Then again, if you ever sell your book, chances are the publisher might want to change your title anyway so it's not the most important thing about the book. Don't spend weeks trying to come up with the perfect title to the detriment of perfecting the book itself. :)

[smsarber]

What if I call my book The Ring of the Lords: The Brotherhood of the Ring?;)

[nevada]

You are within your right to do that. And to deal with the confusion and consumer backlash that may result. lol Still, i doubt the publisher will let it go. unless it's a spoof. :D

[Captain Howdy]

What if I call my book The Ring of the Lords: The Brotherhood of the Ring?;)

it's an epic drama about boxing, right?

[Rolling Thunder]

I have a question about backstory, UJ.

In regards to this advice: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=238068&postcount=4477

If you need the backstory to have the plot make sense there's a chance you're starting the story at the wrong point.

I don't know -- I haven't read your book.

My MC is using backstory to introduce other characters involved in the plot. Sometimes she discusses past history in dialog with that character. At other times she actively remembers when she first met the character, usually through a traumatic experience they shared or she alone witnessed.

I've done this in the second chapter; introducing the characters to the reader as the MC seeks them out to give them orders for an imminent attack. I've been able to do this in less than 2500 words. I'm moving it along as quickly as possible because the first climax peaks during a two day interval.

The plot is character driven so I'm wondering if using backstory is good or bad for this.

[Yeshanu]

What if I call my book The Ring of the Lords: The Brotherhood of the Ring?;)

You can write an R-rated spoof called Bored of the Rings if you want...

Wait. Already been done. :)

Seriously, titles can't be copyrighted. But I still wouldn't title any of my books Star Wars or Twilight, and the publisher would probably demand it be changed if I did.

[euclid]

You can write an R-rated spoof called Bored of the Rings if you want...

What's R-rated? :)

[MumblingSage]

Quote:
Originally Posted by smsarber
What if I call my book The Ring of the Lords: The Brotherhood of the Ring?

it's an epic drama about boxing, right?

I did see a book entitled 'Lords of the Ring' about boxing. I'm not sure if it was a deliberate choice to mimic the fantasy epic-it almost seems it would have to be, but then I'm a fantasy geek, not a boxing fan.

[Jake Barnes]

You can write an R-rated spoof called Bored of the Rings if you want...

Wait. Already been done. :)

Seriously, titles can't be copyrighted. But I still wouldn't title any of my books Star Wars or Twilight, and the publisher would probably demand it be changed if I did.


Actually, there are a whole mess of books out there entitled "Twilight". My guess is there will be another within a few years, although probably not about vampires.

[Yeshanu]

What's R-rated? :)

I think in the States you'd call it X-rated. Sexually explicit material usually earns that rating.

[Captain Howdy]

What's R-rated? :)

R rated is a film rating established by the Motion Picture Association of America in 1968 when the old "Hayes Code" was abolished. Standards have relaxed in the past forty years, but the wording has remained R = "Restricted, no one under seventeen admitted without parent or guardian."

I'm not sure how this compares to X Cert in UK. In the late 60s in the US there was an "X" rating which was not trademarked by the MPAA. Midnight Cowboy, Clockwork Orange, and Last Tango In Paris were three films originally released with an X rating which meant "no one under 17 admitted."

Due to the prolifertion of pornography using an "X" on their product, and eventually a "XXX" designation, the "X rating" was seldom used in the US after the late 60s. It was associated with porn and meant box office death. Eventually, the MPAA created a new rating NC-17 to designate a film which it felt should not be seen by minors.

Today, the R rating is quite common and the restriction to younger teenagers is not necessarily enforced. R rated movies today can feature a liberal use of "language", simulated sex, violence, violent sex, frontal nudity, as well as strong themes of drug use. Blue Velvet, Se7en, Tropic Thunder all feature strong content which the R rating advises parents to proceed with caution when considering a trip to the cinema with their 14 year old.

I spew all of this information out because I brushed up on it for my current WIP, Night of the Pentagram, which takes place in 1968 in the Hollywood film industry.

THere is a very entertaining documentary available on DVD titled "This Film Has Not Yet Been Rated" which explores the sometimes questionable methods of the Motion Picture Association of America in designating what films receive an R, NC-17, or the less restricted PG and PG-13.

sorry if this went to far off topic ;)

[James D. Macdonald]

Re: Titles.

Titles can't be copyrighted ('though they can be trademarked). Still, I'd be a fool to call my book Moby-Dick; or, The Whale because of the possibility of confusing my readers.

Some estates are particularly litigious (for example, the Tolkien estate), leading them to launch frivolous yet interminable lawsuits, which nevertheless are sufficiently wearing (since they have more money than anyone needs), such that they were able to make There And Back Again by Pat Murphy permanently unpublishable.

You'll notice that my own The Apocalypse Door (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0312869886) shares a title with a book by William Todd which came out at roughly the same time. This never caused me any trouble.

[James D. Macdonald]

Okay, writing groups.

If there isn't one in your area, you can start one yourself.

Are there four or five writers, working at about your same level, in similar (or compatible) genres? Good. Discuss forming a writing group with them.

Having decided to do it, find a meeting place. A public library or a community center would be good, since if you start meeting in people's homes pretty soon the tea and muffins will become more important than the writing.

Establish minimums for how much work you need to present each week. Every week, everyone brings in that number of pages of their work-in-progress. Folks take 'em home. The following week, everyone presents their comments on that week's works, and collects the next week's stories/chapters/sections. Continue.

No free rides! If someone doesn't come up with the requisite number of pages each week -- you can be merciful once or twice, but after that, they're out.

No reviewing for blood. There are enough things in the writing life that'll make you cry without having one of your friends do it to you too. The goal isn't to show how clever you are, but to be both helpful and truthful.

[IdiotsRUs]

Are there four or five writers, working at about your same level, in similar (or compatible) genres? Good. Discuss forming a writing group with them.

How do you find these people? That's always been my biggest question

Until Waylander that is.

R rated is a film rating established by the Motion Picture Association of America in 1968 when the old "Hayes Code" was abolished. Standards have relaxed in the past forty years, but the wording has remained R = "Restricted, no one under seventeen admitted without parent or guardian."

Did you know about the british board of censors' knuckle rule? Apparently it pertains to feet too.

There are some weird autobiographies out there

[James D. Macdonald]

How do you find these people? That's always been my biggest question



A note on the bulletin board at the library, or seeing who goes to local writing conferences, might help. Get wired into the writing demi-monde in your area. Writers who are social enough to be a in a writing group aren't invisible.

[Berry]

Re: Titles.

... they were able to make There And Back Again by Pat Murphy permanently unpublishable.


Hm. I have a copy on my shelves. Do you mean it's now out of print and will never be reprinted, because of this?

[James D. Macdonald]

Do you mean it's now out of print and will never be reprinted, because of this?

That's exactly what I mean.

[Berry]

What a pity; it was a fun read.

[skyscrape32]

RE: Titles

I think titles should not be subject to copyright issues because its the content of the book that matters

[Cyia]

RE: Titles

I think titles should not be subject to copyright issues because its the content of the book that matters


Except that if the title is instantly recognizable, then the content received may be different than what the reader expected.

Say I wrote a book about dinosaurs for children. It's about a zoo-like facility where candycolored dinos interact with the kids on a daily basis to teach them basic learning skills (math, grammar, and the like). Sure, I could call it Jurassic Park; it fits the material and is a fair representation of what's inside - but just about everyone has an instant idea of story goes along with JP.

Say I wrote an NC-17 level book about a mage who fights evil with his two sidekicks. He undergoes training to perfect his craft and his name happens to be Harry Potter. (I think this one actually couldn't be done because HP is a trademarked charrie, but I'll use him for the sake of argument.) No matter what warning is put on the book as to it being adult content, anyone seeing Harry's name on it will automatically assume it belongs to a certain genre for a certain age range. They wouldn't be expecting graphic sex or bloody violence on every page.

You may have a WIP with a title you LOVE - one someone else got to use first. You'll be a lot better off if you change it rather than digging your heels in because you've had something named "Twilight", "the DaVinci Code" or "The Lovely Bones" on your computer for fifteen years. (IMO, of course )

[Aschenbach]

Establish minimums for how much work you need to present each week. Every week, everyone brings in that number of pages of their work-in-progress.

I have never belonged to a writer's group, but would love the oppurtunity for informed feedback. However, I would baulk at showing people WIP stuff that was still at 1st draft stage. I never show work to my betas until it has been redrafted several times. Is it worthwhile getting crits on something that hasn't properly taken shape yet?

Sharing work that was more polished I would have no problem with. Or does this go against the ethos of a typical writer's group?

[James D. Macdonald]

Sharing work that was more polished I would have no problem with. Or does this go against the ethos of a typical writer's group?


First draft? No need for that. There's no reason why you should be workshopping anything less than ready-for-beta material.

[Makai_Lightning]

I have never belonged to a writer's group, but would love the oppurtunity for informed feedback. However, I would baulk at showing people WIP stuff that was still at 1st draft stage. I never show work to my betas until it has been redrafted several times. Is it worthwhile getting crits on something that hasn't properly taken shape yet?

Sharing work that was more polished I would have no problem with. Or does this go against the ethos of a typical writer's group?

I do think you can find good feedback while you're still in the shaping phase. I've done it a few times with projects I started for a sort of "would the idea/plot point/whatever work for you" thing. As long as there's the understanding that it's not finished, and I don't want in depth critique on the finer details or things I obviously haven't finished working out yet, I think you can still get good general feedback. As you have something intelligible, you can get something.

For me, letting people see what I've got to start with works, because it keeps me going in a direction that makes sense, and I can figure out what people expect of the plot, character, etc. It cuts back on some of the work later if I can avoid some bigger plot holes. It allows me to edit faster, sometimes.

Considering I've always been in the habit of just writing papers for school straight and turning them in without edits, and I was never much for editing (school or otherwise) until I decided I could be a whole new level of BA if I did, I never felt like what I wrote to start with was so indecent no one could see it. So maybe that's just a personal thing for me. I wouldn't ask for too much time from people, and I'd still want someone to look at the more polished piece, but you can find useful feedback with a far less than perfect draft.

(Like, okay. So my new WIP I started just this month last friday I printed off so I could take with me, not realizing immediately how long it was. I showed it to my friend because I was amused at how large the stack of paper was, and she skimmed it instead. What she said was she liked the style, the voice, and the general idea was cool. I mean, that wasn't an in depth critique, nor did I ask for one or expect her to look at it at all, but it's still helpful. She'd be honest if it wasn't working for her. If I asked she'd probably say more too, but it wasn't important.)

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Is there a simple way to explain why was should be used instead of were? Without it getting too complicated or for it to sound like the explanation came from the Oxford Dictionary? :flag:

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Is there a simple way to explain why was should be used instead of were? Without it getting too complicated or for it to sound like the explanation came from the Oxford Dictionary? :flag:



Hmmm.

It would help if you had an example. But:

In general:

Was is singular (I was walking down the street) while were is plural (We were walking down the street).

I was, you were, he/she/it was; we were, you were, they were.


Or are you talking about the subjunctive mood?

If you have a statement contrary to fact, you use were. "If I were you."

Use were for the conditional mood (some condition needs to change for the statement to be true) "If it were raining."

Subjunctive and conditional phrases often (but not exclusively) start with the word "If."

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks Uncle Jim

[pictopedia]

In the design field, when you create and present design solutions to team members and clients (all arts are related), and if you have a half-hearted design that your're not quite sure of, people will always run away with it. They will sense the incompleteness and insecurity and a lot of discussions happen that help nobody. I don't understand where and why and how a reading group is a good thing for a starting author.

[Sailor Kenshin]

In the design field, when you create and present design solutions to team members and clients (all arts are related), and if you have a half-hearted design that your're not quite sure of, people will always run away with it. They will sense the incompleteness and insecurity and a lot of discussions happen that help nobody. I don't understand where and why and how a reading group is a good thing for a starting author.

It's different.

[Yeshanu]

In the design field, when you create and present design solutions to team members and clients (all arts are related), and if you have a half-hearted design that your're not quite sure of, people will always run away with it. They will sense the incompleteness and insecurity and a lot of discussions happen that help nobody. I don't understand where and why and how a reading group is a good thing for a starting author.

It depends on the group. I've been in situations where I've had a good idea for something (a play, worship service, whatever), and I've worked with a group and the idea got even better.

If the group is about competition, then the group isn't going to make any idea better. But if it's about co-operation, and the folks in the group know what they're doing, then weak ideas will be revealed as such, and strong ideas will be made stronger.

I wouldn't think much of a team that spent a lot of time "running away" with an incomplete idea--the most constructive thing for that team to do would be to table it until it was more complete. And if the team consistently spent a lot of time on useless activity, I'd find another team, not give up on teams altogether.

[Shweta]

Even in groups where one feels comfortable sharing an early draft (and like Yeshanu I think this is restricted to co-operative groups, and to groups where people know one another and have seen polished work from one another so know what they can do), it's useful to mark it as such so that people don't waste their time detail-editing something that will change a fair amount.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,
When indicating thought from a character in a story, how is it indicated? I have two samples here. Would it be Sample 1 or Sample 2? Or is it a matter of personal style?


Sample 1
Arrosa looked at Edwina’s light brown eyes. Her hair is showing signs of aging: more gray now than the earthen color it normally is. Signs of eating too many sweets showing themselves as well. She deserves them, for all that she does. As for the request, it is unusual and my dear sister Lila knows how I feel about unusual requests. That would be the reason for sending MacGivvit, to avert attention away from her and onto someone of less significance. It will save her from having to wait for the spell to ware off, and be free from the cage. Arrosa turned around and walked back to the cliff overlooking the ocean below. She watched the waves crash on shore. “Edwina, bring MacGivvit to me.” A small bolt of energy emanated from her index finger, igniting the hindquarters of various vermin in the surrounding area.
Sample 2
Arrosa looked at Edwina’s light brown eyes, she thought, her hair is showing signs of aging: more gray now than the earthen color it normally is. Signs of eating too many sweets showing themselves as well. She deserves them, for all that she does. As for the request, it is unusual and my dear sister Lila knows how I feel about unusual requests. That would be the reason for sending MacGivvit, to avert attention away from her and onto someone of less significance. It will save her from having to wait for the spell to ware off, and be free from the cage. Arrosa turned around and walked back to the cliff overlooking the ocean below. She watched the waves crash on shore. “Edwina, bring MacGivvit to me.” A small bolt of energy emanated from her index finger, igniting the hindquarters of various vermin in the surrounding area.

[James D. Macdonald]

I like the vermin with the smouldering hindquarters.

You can indicate thought any way you please (italics are more common, though).

Please consider re-paragraphing, whichever way you go.

[euclid]

Sample 1
Arrosa looked at Edwina’s light brown eyes. Her hair is showing signs of aging: more gray now than the earthen color it normally is. Signs of eating too many sweets showing themselves as well. She deserves them, for all that she does. As for the request, it is unusual and my dear sister Lila knows how I feel about unusual requests. That would be the reason for sending MacGivvit, to avert attention away from her and onto someone of less significance. It will save her from having to wait for the spell to ware off, and be free from the cage. Arrosa turned around and walked back to the cliff overlooking the ocean below. She watched the waves crash on shore. “Edwina, bring MacGivvit to me.” A small bolt of energy emanated from her index finger, igniting the hindquarters of various vermin in the surrounding area.
Sample 2
Arrosa looked at Edwina’s light brown eyes, she thought, her hair is showing signs of aging: more gray now than the earthen color it normally is. Signs of eating too many sweets showing themselves as well. She deserves them, for all that she does. As for the request, it is unusual and my dear sister Lila knows how I feel about unusual requests. That would be the reason for sending MacGivvit, to avert attention away from her and onto someone of less significance. It will save her from having to wait for the spell to ware off, and be free from the cage. Arrosa turned around and walked back to the cliff overlooking the ocean below. She watched the waves crash on shore. “Edwina, bring MacGivvit to me.” A small bolt of energy emanated from her index finger, igniting the hindquarters of various vermin in the surrounding area.

I spotted a spelling mistake: That should be wear off

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks guys. The story is still in its infancy so any mistakes that pop up I apologize for. :Hug2:

[James D. Macdonald]

How do your favorite writers handle thoughts/internal dialog?

[Calliopenjo]

I've read both. Someone told me though that italicized thought is an indication of an amateur. OK. So seeing as I was a tad confused, I'd thought I'd consult the grand master of writing and ask for help. Now I don't feel so confused.

[Makai_Lightning]

I've read both. Someone told me though that italicized thought is an indication of an amateur. OK. So seeing as I was a tad confused, I'd thought I'd consult the grand master of writing and ask for help. Now I don't feel so confused.

It's been a while since I've read Steven King, but I'm pretty sure he did it.

So Steven King's an amatuer? (I distinctly remember italics in his books. I remember no specific examples, so of course I could be wrong. Nevertheless, I'd wonder why italicized thought necessitates "amatuer;" I've still seen a lot of respected author's do it.)

[smsarber]

How do your favorite writers handle thoughts/internal dialog?
With fava beans and a nice Ciante.

[James D. Macdonald]

Well, huge blocks of italics look cheesy.

[smsarber]

I wasn't a wine drinker, even when I still drank, so I have no idea how to spell Ciante. But IMO, huge blocks of italics are cheesy, except if they represent a dream sequence or excerpt from something like a journal.

[James D. Macdonald]

I once read a Leon Uris novel where alternating chapters were set in ALL CAPS. Or, I should say that I read half of the novel. It didn't take me long to start skipping alternate chapters.

[IdiotsRUs]

Well, huge blocks of italics look cheesy.

And annoying.

Whatever you do - it'll probably be changed by your editor to their preferred house style anyway ;)

[Makai_Lightning]

I once read a Leon Uris novel where alternating chapters were set in ALL CAPS. Or, I should say that I read half of the novel. It didn't take me long to start skipping alternate chapters.

That sounds singularly odd; is there any particular reason it was like that? It might make my eyes bleed after too long.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm certain Uris had his reasons, and he had sufficient horsepower to get his publisher to go along with it. What it was I never found out since I didn't read the ALL-CAPS part.

[IceCreamEmpress]

The novel to which Unca Jim is referring is QB VII. All first-person accounts were put in ALL CAPS, while the regular narrative was in ordinary sentence case. (It wasn't exactly alternating chapters, but it probably amounted to a little less than half of the book in ALL CAPS.)

It's an interesting book, and was a giant seller in its day (1970). It's about a libel suit filed by a Polish physician against an American novelist: the physician returns from charity work in an isolated community to find that the novelist has written a best-seller which identifies him (the physician) as a collaborator with the Nazis.

The physician, a Polish Catholic, is a survivor of a concentration camp, but the memories he presents IN ALL CAPS are of a man doing his best to help his fellow inmates while doing what he can to resist the authority of his imprisoners. And yet, in the narrative itself, he comes off as an anti-Semite and a bit of a crazy.

Meanwhile, the author's memories IN ALL CAPS are of his desire to live up to his war-hero older brother's example and to fight for the dignity of the Jewish people. And yet, in the narrative itself, he comes off as a bit of a crazy and an attention-seeker.

I think that Uris's point with the ALL CAPS stuff was to show the difference between the ways people present themselves and the ways other people perceive them. I'm not sure that it works--like Unca Jim, I had trouble reading the CAPS. And if Uris had not been the gigantic megaseller blockbuster author that he was at the time (Exodus had sold about a kajillion copies), I'm sure some editor would have told him to figure out something less annoying.

[Dale Emery]

John Irving set Owen Meany's speeches in all caps, and that worked. Meany didn't have many long speeches.

Dale

[Judg]

Dale, in that case, it totally worked. The quality of Owen's voice, high-pitched and annoying, was a very important part of the story. And the fact that it came in small, dialogue-sized snippets makes a huge difference. Annoyance is much easier to take in snippets rather than blocks.

And I'm sure being John Irving didn't hurt.

[Chris Grey]

Terry Pratchett's Death speaks in all caps as well. But it's really more about the sparsity of caps or italics. You know those people who highlight every word in a book "because they're all important"? Italics or caps are a way to emphasize. If everything is important, nothing is.

Some people dismiss italics as amateurish because they feel they're being instructed on where the emphasis should be, as if it wasn't clear from the context (as I italicize to illustrate).

Going back to thoughts: if you're going to use a lot of it, consider telling instead of showing, and consider too breaking up the thought soliloquys with straight text:
"Arrosa looked at Edwina's light brown eyes, still youthful after all she's done, and saw that her hair had grayed since last time, with little left of its natural earthen brown." Signs of too many sweets showing themselves as well, she thought, then turned around as her thoughts turned to the request. It is unusual, she thought as she walked back to the cliff overlooking the ocean below, and my dear sister..."

If huge blocks of italics are cheesy, some readers are lactose intolerant. Breaking up the cheese can make it a little more palatable.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks guys, you definitely have given some things to think about. As for the ALL CAPS chapters, I have never seen that. I can't say if I would read it or not either.

:e2writer:

[James D. Macdonald]

As for the ALL CAPS chapters, I have never seen that.

Read a lot. Read widely. Read the best. Read everything. This is why.

-----------

By the way (tiny boast):

My agent recently got an inquiry from Random House, Germany. Having read one of my sample chapters on my web page, he wanted to know if German Translation rights were available.

Maybe nothing will come of it. Maybe something will. But without the sample chapter....

Guys, I'm telling you. If you don't have Chapter One from every book you've ever published on your web page, you are missing out big time.

(Oh -- the sample chapter must be Chapter One. And it must have a link to Buy This Book Now right on the same page. Spell check and HTML-check are not optional.)

[James D. Macdonald]

A novel-writing wiki. (http://www.ljcohen.net/Tiddlywiki.htm) (Freeware.)

Instructions/tutorial. (http://ljcbluemuse.blogspot.com/search/label/TiddlyWikiWrite)

[IdiotsRUs]

would you say Jim, that reading a bad book can be as instructive as reading a good one?

*apologies if asked before,memory isn't what it once was*

[James D. Macdonald]

would you say Jim, that reading a bad book can be as instructive as reading a good one?



Yes, provided you do so knowing how it is bad and why it is bad, and how to avoid its errors.

For good books you want to figure out how it is good and why it is good, and also how to emulate it.

Be a reader. Be a thoughtful reader.

Learn.

[James D. Macdonald]

Yet More Truth About Publishing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ78WHpGZ1o)

[MsK]

Yet More Truth About Publishing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ78WHpGZ1o)


Well, at least I'm going to beat the ten to thirty year range to finish one of my books.
That was great. Thanks for sharing. :)

[batgirl]

Katherine Blake's (terrific) novel The Interior Life uses different fonts for the two storylines. I don't know offhand which fonts, but it makes for an almost subliminal cue, as the story shifts from the present-day suburbs, sometimes right in the middle of a conversation or event, to the fantasy story.
Um. Not that this would work for thought, but it's a better solution for contrasting storylines than ALL CAPS, I think.
-Barbara

[RHQ]

I think this would work for the novel I'm working on now. Part of it takes place in present day and part takes place in the past. The historical entries are presented as diary entries, letters, and other documents, so having a different font for those makes perfect sense.

P.S. I *adore* Death in the Terry Pratchett books. I don't find his all caps annoying at all, but probably because he's so funny.

Kelly

Katherine Blake's (terrific) novel The Interior Life uses different fonts for the two storylines. I don't know offhand which fonts, but it makes for an almost subliminal cue, as the story shifts from the present-day suburbs, sometimes right in the middle of a conversation or event, to the fantasy story.
-Barbara

[Perle_Rare]

I've read many books that alternate between timelines or parallel stories without using font or case changes to indicate it. I find that a quick mention at the start of the chapter stating location and time is generally sufficient.

[James D. Macdonald]

The other thing about Death's ALL CAPS dialog is that it's brief.

BTW, in the video, many of the scenes were shot inside the Macmillan USA offices (in the Flatiron Building), so you can get a good idea of what publishing offices look like (though it's less reliable about what goes on there).