Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[gdtownshende]

Wow! O.O

Lots of stuff to read for someone new to AbsoluteWrite. However, Logical Chess: Move by Move and The Tough Guide to Fantasyland have now been placed in my Amazon wishlist (adding to it's already incredible bulk), so that I can purchase them later on, after I've finished browsing here.

Quick question, Jim. Are you the same James McDonald who sometimes posts at the Making Light (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/) blog? Just curious, as I sometimes read it, having learned about it months and months ago through Neil Gaiman's (http://journal.neilgaiman.com/) blog.

GT

[James D. Macdonald]

Yep, I'm that same James Macdonald (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006448.html).

[gdtownshende]

Cool. Glad to hear that you're the same guy. It helps to put a digital-face to the digital-voice, so to speak.

I've been browsing this thread, as I said earlier, focusing largely on your posts rather than others' replies, and now my brain runneth over with good, good stuff.

Your "Quick Slick Research Method (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82387&postcount=100)" (which I just read) has been summarily cut-and-pasted to a place on my computer so that I can have easy and ready access to it. I also like Dwight Swain's advice on research, which your own seems to echo (in my own words): "Make it surgical: get what you need, then get out. No need to browse or to get lost in unnecessary details." Thus the method for my browsing this thread.

[gdtownshende]

Yep, I'm that same James Macdonald (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006448.html).

Having given due consideration to British Folk Ballads, it isn't enough that me own surname be British, but me mum is, too, seeing that she hails from Westham. There's nothing quite like being more than half Brit and then trying to convince others that you're also not a half-wit. :P

[Shweta]

No need to browse or to get lost in unnecessary details." Thus the method for my browsing this thread.

Speaking of which, here's (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7987) the undiluted version of this thread. It's not up to date but it'll help you in your method. Till it stops.

[James D. Macdonald]

Making Light, the weblog referred to above, has suffered a catastrophic data loss.

Details, and what you can do to help, are here: http://www.sunpig.com/abi/

[Shweta]

And AW discussions of what we can do are here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101505), here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101545), and somewhere in Roundtable too :)

[gdtownshende]

Making Light, the weblog referred to above, has suffered a catastrophic data loss.

Details, and what you can do to help, are here: http://www.sunpig.com/abi/

It's been quite some time since I left a comment, and given the dates for which comments have gone missing, it would appear that none of my own comments were lost. I still visit Making Light, but I apparently haven't left a comment since about June 2006, per my search. I've just been lurking.

[James D. Macdonald]

The lurkers can help by finding and saving data from various web-caches.

[Medievalist]

Keep in mind too, please, especially if you're on dialup, that you may well have local caches in your Web browsers cache or temp file directory.

[gdtownshende]

The lurkers can help by finding and saving data from various web-caches.

I'll definitely see what I can do to help.

[James D. Macdonald]

Ego Alert

Reader reviews of our short story "Philologos" (from here (http://nightshadebooks.com/discus/messages/378/8433.html?1209569784)):

"Philologos: or, A murder in Bistrita" by Debra Doyle and James D. Macdonald.
This was an absolutely superb story that fully made up for the deficiencies of the other four. Beautifully written, marvelous word-painting descriptions, and great language. A true mystery all the way though, with every twist and turn unsuspected. In the end, our mild-mannered hero turns into a brave and Shirlock-Holms-like superman. You think he's going to get the girl, but no, he anticipated her perfidy and wins the day. Hooray!

Philologos: or, A Murder in Bistrita: I'm surprised at the positive comments GVG forwarded, given the protagonist can do no wrong. That said, I thought it was brilliant. Going against form makes it a delightfully surprising story. A very close second for best in issue.

[James D. Macdonald]

How not to get an agent (http://theswivet.blogspot.com/2008/05/lessons-in-how-to-never-get-agent-part.html), part #45857.


No, really, seriously, sending hate mail after you get a rejection will get you talked about, and not in any particularly positive way.

I get the feeling you don't know talent when it stares you in the face or emails a one page query letter. If you base all your judgements on a one minute note, you are either psychic or don't have a clue that there is much more to this world than your office or small stable of writers who somehow bribed cajoled or kissed someone's ass to get there.

See also, Talking Back to Agents (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34351) here at AW and Bernard's Letter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU4S2BIqoHY). This is such a bad idea.

See also, the ABM (Author's Big Mistake) (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45540): responding in any way whatever to a negative review.

[Melenka]

I am stunned. Despite purposely not looking into what a query involves until I finish the damned book, I know enough to not be intentionally rude to an agent. Every business has its networks and word flies fast when someone is unpleasant, difficult or whiny. There is no reason to think that publishing would be any different. In fact, like all the arts, it's a smaller base group so the communication between colleagues/friends happens even faster.

I am in a service position, and the few times I have received emails that approached that level of rudeness, the person sending it was immediately dropped to the bottom of the list of people for whom I would make any special effort.

[jbryson]

How not to get an agent (http://theswivet.blogspot.com/2008/05/lessons-in-how-to-never-get-agent-part.html), part #45857.


No, really, seriously, sending hate mail after you get a rejection will get you talked about, and not in any particularly positive way.

I just don't get it. Should you even respond to a reject? The agent has read my query or pages, and has clicked on the skull icon. She's done with me. The time she would take to read even a polite response is time she could be reading somebody else's query, or more importantly, calling a contact to sell something she's already taken on.

An agent's only question when reading a query or pages is, "Can I sell this?"
and "Who to?" She reads until she has an answer.

[James D. Macdonald]

In my opinion? You don't need to respond to a rejection. The interaction is completed. Write back when you have a new book to pitch.

[Deb Kinnard]

The only time I've EVER responded to a "no-thanks" is when the recipient has made suggestions for a MS's improvement, and they make sense to me. Then I reply with a "thank you for reviewing" note. And I make that puppy BRIEF.

Primum non nocere. What harm, after all, can a thank-you do?

[HippieGirl]

Jim, I just found this thread and WOW - so much to read and so much to learn! What do you think is the ideal length of a first time manuscript that is submitted? I have read that 120000 words is perfect (mystery) - what are your thoughts on the reality of it? And I'm sorry if I've missed it and you have already answered this.

[James D. Macdonald]

I have read that 120000 words is perfect (mystery) -

You could go down to the bookstore and do a fast word-count on what's coming out now.

120,000 seems a bit on the long side. I'd have thought around 80,000 words would be better for a first novel.

But! If the 120,000 words are the exactly right 120,000 words, then that's how long the book is.

[batgirl]

This may be a writing-workshop-specific problem. Really, I try to listen to criticism, even/especially the comments I really disagree with, because often they're the most perceptive.
What has me confused is what to do when a critiquer says 'this wasn't established' or 'you never told me this' and looking back at the text, I can see that very thing established or stated. For instance, I (rather clunkily, I know) introduced a character as 'ten-year old Savannah', and later had her refer to getting her Super Salmon swimming badge, but a critiquer said 'I had no idea how old this character was.' Or having characters walk by a cathedral, and a critiquer surprised at a later mention of Christian belief (in a fantasy story).
Should I revise to insert more markers, or put it down to individual variations in reading attention? Sorry if this sounds grumpy, but I'm frustrated. I don't want to hammer random story points into the ground, but I don't want readers to be confused, either.
-Barbara

[HippieGirl]

Hey Batgirl, one thing I learned from this site, is that what one person finds confusing another reader might not. Go with your gut if you feel like you have explained it. But I'm not Uncle Jim, so I'm not an expert:-)

[kzmiller]

I'm not Uncle Jim either, but I agree with HippieGirl. In fact just the other day our writer's group discussed a story. Things that absolutely were established and worked for me got missed by 3 out of the 8 people sitting at the table. The facts weren't hidden, either. It was a short story, and each 'hint' lasted at least a whole paragraph.

Definitely follow your gut. Bear in mind too that readers get distracted, might read when they're tired, etc. Also bear in mind that's the condition in which editors and agents read, so take a peek and see if the facts people got confused about went by a little too quickly, just in case.

[laidback]

Uncle Jim, et al: Any tips on adding foreshadowing to a scene in third person limited?

My story starts with a kid on his first day of high school. I want to clue in the readers early on to the fact that there's some seriously creepy things going on. I'm afraid that if they view it as just a "trying to fit in" kind of story, it may be hard for them to accept the weirdness that happens later on -- like if a UFO appeared in chapter 4 of a Western.

I'm tempted to jump in as an omniscient narrator and say something like "Little does he know than in less than 24 hours... blah blah blah," but that would violate POV.

Has anyone else ever run into this problem?

[James D. Macdonald]

This may be a writing-workshop-specific problem. Really, I try to listen to criticism, even/especially the comments I really disagree with, because often they're the most perceptive.

Remember the rule that when someone tells you that there's a problem at a certain point there's probably a problem, but when they tell you what the problem is, they're probably wrong.

What has me confused is what to do when a critiquer says 'this wasn't established' or 'you never told me this' and looking back at the text, I can see that very thing established or stated. For instance, I (rather clunkily, I know) introduced a character as 'ten-year old Savannah', and later had her refer to getting her Super Salmon swimming badge, but a critiquer said 'I had no idea how old this character was.' Or having characters walk by a cathedral, and a critiquer surprised at a later mention of Christian belief (in a fantasy story).

A couple of questions: First, this is a workshop. Were they reading a chapter-per-week? If so, it's hard to remember what was established earlier.

Second, is it possible that the information was established in a weak paragraph, or in a weak sentence, or in a weak part of the sentence?

Important information goes in main clauses, not subordinate clauses, for example. Any sentence that begins "there was" is weak. The first word and the last word in a sentence is a position of power.

Also, if your readers really-for-sure need a certain piece of information, tell it to them three times.

Should I revise to insert more markers, or put it down to individual variations in reading attention? Sorry if this sounds grumpy, but I'm frustrated. I don't want to hammer random story points into the ground, but I don't want readers to be confused, either.


How important is the information to your story? Also, in workshops, "I didn't get _______" is a very easy critique. It's almost as easy as "I want to know more about ___________." Take the feedback, use it as you see fit, and relax.

Uncle Jim, et al: Any tips on adding foreshadowing to a scene in third person limited?

Foreshadowing is one of the lesser-understood tricks of Quality Literature. Look for foreshadowing wherever fine books are sold!

My story starts with a kid on his first day of high school. I want to clue in the readers early on to the fact that there's some seriously creepy things going on. I'm afraid that if they view it as just a "trying to fit in" kind of story, it may be hard for them to accept the weirdness that happens later on -- like if a UFO appeared in chapter 4 of a Western.

There's a lot to be said for just letting the weirdness happen.


I'm tempted to jump in as an omniscient narrator and say something like "Little does he know than in less than 24 hours... blah blah blah," but that would violate POV.

Arrrgh! Not only does it violate POV, it's a cliche of bad melodrama. "Little did I know!" "Had he but known!" Use those and you will be mocked.


Has anyone else ever run into this problem?

Why, yes! I ran into exactly that problem, in high-school horror novel. How did I solve it? By using symbolism (another Literary Trick). My protagonist was entering a mystery plot. Therefore, in the first chapter I had her glasses fog up. Let me see if I can find Chapter One of Pep Rally (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0061060844/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) by "Nicholas Adams" around here somewhere....

[Deb Kinnard]

Batgirl, I ran into this paradigm constantly in my RWA critique sessions. I'd had something like, "Never in her 26 years of life in an affluent suburb had she..."

And then had people groan, "I get no feel for her at all! Or the setting!"

Crit groups are notorious for either 1) reading for story, which I prefer, or 2) reading in order to cross out a comma here and insert a semicolon there. The critters who are hunting for punctuation "errors", or grammar they don't like, may not notice you've said what you've said at all. Those blessed few folks who are reading for story, may not care about the details--they're expendable if the story catches their imagination, and then they're off on YOUR wild ride and you've done your job!

Don't sweat it if they miss stuff that's there. I've even had agents do this, because they read fast and not necessarily accurately. Hang in there. If you know you did it, then it's there, end of line.

[Judg]

When anybody at all misses something, I usually try to make that tidbit of information stand out a little more. Not all readers can be attentive to every word.

When just about everybody misses it, I conclude that I have been way too subtle. So I start hammering a bit. In other words, they don't just walk by the cathedral, they stop and admire the architecture, debate its history, or whatever.

Stating somebody's age is a pretty boring way of letting us know how old they are and it's so easily forgotten. Show us how old the character is, by behaviour, vocabulary, comments on their size or clothing or whatever. Weave these things into the action so that they don't feel like intrusions. Then readers will have no trouble at all keeping that information in mind, because it becomes a living, breathing part of the character instead of a factoid mentioned in passing. This is a characterization issue more than anything else.

[James D. Macdonald]

The constant balancing act is between making your story comprehensible to the deaf old lady in the back row while at the same time making it entertaining for the clever buggers in the front row.

[James D. Macdonald]

Here it is. Chapter One from Pep Rally by "Nicholas Adams." While it's labeled "YA horror," the genre is actually mystery. There are no supernatural elements.

Please be kind. I was young. This was a packaged novel, written in under a month, using a series bible that didn't make as much sense as it should have. It didn't have my real name on the cover. And there were other horrors in the making of this book that I may yet tell.

If I were writing this today, there's much that I'd do differently.

But I'm presenting this as an example of foreshadowing in a high school setting. Foreshadowing starts in the first paragraph, and continues thereafter.




Cathy Atmore hurried up the step of Cresswell High. Even though the sky was a bright October blue, the chilly wind whipping through her short brown curls made her wish she'd worn a hat. But wearing a hat in the morning would have given her flat, bounceless "hat hair" for th rest of the day. She didn't need that. It was bad enough that she had a plain face behind glasses thicker than the bottom of a Coca-Cola bottle.


Inside, she joined the other students already surging through the halls of the old brick school building. Cresswell High had a student body of well over a thousand--few enough that the students knew each other by sight, but too many for anyone but Mr. Cooder, the school secretary, to all of their names.


Inside the school, locker doors banged and crashed as the student hung up their coats. Cathy walked thorough the crowded hallways, hurrying to get to her locker and then to homeroom. She waved to her friend Cheryl Barkham, but she didn't dare stop to chat so close to the final bell.


Cheryl was more like an acquaintance anyway, not a close friend like Jennifer Brody. Jennie had been Cathy's best friend all through grade school, as well as her next-door neighbor, until Mr. Brody struck it rich with his string of Lucky Chicken franchises. Then the Brodies had moved out of the Upper Basin district and into a beautiful colonial-style house in Gaspee Farms.


Cathy would have stopped to talk with Jennie even if it did make her miss the last bell. Jennie hadn't abandoned her--the short kid in glasses from the unfashionable part of town--even after Jennie had developed into the popular, good-looking star of the senior cheerleading squad.


Cathy needed to talk with Jennie today. She hadn't seen her since the party Friday night--a noisy, crowded after-the-game celebration at Eric Skidwell's house in Rocky Banks Estates--the sort of thing Cathy got invited to every once in a while because she was Jennie's friend. Jennie had wanted to talk about something that night; she'd told Cathy so, but then her boyfriend, Don Fulman, had come up and hauled Jennie off to dance in the room with the stereo. Cathy had hoped they would have a chance to talk later, but she'd had to leave the party early, before Jennie came back.


Cathy made it into her homeroom just as the last bell rang. Mrs. Pangborn started calling the roll and marking the absences on the slip for the school office.


Cathy answered "Here" when her name was called, without looking up from her history notebook. Mr. Osgood's American History class was first period, and she had to prepare for it now. Osgood never smiled before about two in the afternoon, but history would have been Cathy's least favorite subject even at a better time of day. She usually looked over her notes and reread the assigned material during homeroom.


She bit her lip, noticing for the first time since Friday that there had been an assignment over the weekend--one she hadn't bothered to do, hadn't even remembered until this moment: a one-page report on the Dred Scott decision. Too bad I don't have a dog, Cathy thought. Then I could say the dog ate it.


Then she shrugged. The assignment didn't matter except to her own sense of self-respect; her grades were good enough that she could slide by with a B or even a C in American History and not worry. As long as she got her diploma, the transcript for her first three yeas--plus her SAT scores--were all that any college would ever see.


She'd done pretty well on the SAT, too. In fact, Catty was one of the brains of Cresswell High, at least according to her friend Jennie. Not that being a brain had kept Cathy from forgetting all about that stupid history paper. Now she'd have to listen to Osgood the Grouch as a morning warm-up. Mr. Osgood had a way of talking, quiet and sarcastic, that could make people feel like dirt if they did something he disliked. And not doing homework was up near the top of the list of things he didn't like.


Cheryl Barkham leaned over from the next desk.


"Have you seen Henry O'Toole this morning? He's wearing a black shirt and a white tie and a fedora! He looks like a TV gangster."


Cathy shook her head. "What some people won't do to get noticed."


Henry was always doing something, she reflected--usually something weird, and sometimes something obnoxious. But he was mostly harmless, unlike that creep Mel Downing, who would stand too close and stare down her blouse, even if it was buttoned up to her neck. The things girls had to put up with ....


She returned to her history book. No, a report hadn't magically appeared tucked inside the back cover. Maybe Mr. Osgood wouldn't be here today, and they'd have a substitute. Maybe the roof would fall in. Maybe--there went the bell. Time to go to class.


The roof hadn't fallen in on the history room, and they didn't have a substitute, either. Everything was just as it always was: the world map on one wall, the dusty flags of a dozen countries tacked around near the ceiling, the rows of flimsy-looking desks. And Mr. Osgood in his three-piece suit standing with his hands in his pockets up at the front. The bell rang again just as Cathy sat down.


"Good morning, class," Mr. Osgood began. "I hope you had a pleasant and productive weekend." He didn't look as if he hoped any such thing. "Please pass your homework papers forward."


Cathy rustled in her notebook, trying to look as if she had something to turn in. No use letting Osgood get started on her any sooner than he had to. She was so intent on finding the nonexistent paper that she missed the first words of the announcement that crackled over the intercom.


"...following students report to the office at once," said the dry voice of Mr. Cooder. "George Jacobs. Franklin Reed. Eric Skidwell. Donald Fulham. Todd Barber. Sylvia Roper. Cheryl Barkham. Pamela Greeley. Matthew Wilcox. Linda Sturgess. Susan De Sica. Cathy Atmore..."


Cathy Atmore! That was her!


"Have to go to the office," she said. She scooped up her books and hurried out before Mr. Osgood could stop her. She was so relieved that she wouldn't get caught without her assignment that she didn't wonder why she'd been called to the office until she was down in Cresswell High's big, echoing lobby.


The lobby seemed even larger than usual without a throng of people coming and going. A row of chairs had been set up along one wall of the corridor, and several students were already waiting there. Cheryl sat in one of the chairs, and Don Fulman was sitting in another.


Cathy recognized most of the other students. They were all friends of hers--well, she admitted, not close friends exactly. Just people she knew and whose parties she sometimes went to because of knowing Jennie. Most of Jennie's crowd these days lived in Gaspee Farms and Rocky Banks Estates and had parents who were doctors and lawyers. Cathy lived in the Upper Basin and had a father who drove eighteen-wheelers up and down the coast for a living.


"What's going on?" Cathy whispered as she walked past Cheryl's seat.


Cheryl shrugged. "Don't know."


Cathy went into the office. "I'm here, Mr. Cooder."


The school secretary was the sort of man you'd expect to wear a bow tie, but he didn't. His hair was gray and he never smiled or joked with the students. Today, he was holding a clipboard. He made a mark on the clipboard, then looked at her.


"Cathy Atmore," he said. "Take a seat in the hall with the others."


"What's this all about?" Cathy asked.


"Take a seat," Mr. Cooder repeated. "Wait until you're called."


She went back outside and sat down next to Cheryl. Taking a sheet of paper out of her notebook, she went to work paraphrasing what her history textbook said about Dred Scott.


Time passed. Don Fulman sprawled in a chair on the other side of the corridor. After a while he stuck his feet out in front of him and yawned, covering his mouth with the back of his hand. Cathy went on writing.


Suddenly, she was aware of Mr. Cooder standing in front of her. "Miss Atmore," he said, "please pay attention. This is the second time I have been forced to call your name."


He indicated one of the inner doors inside the main office. The brass nameplate on the door said HENRY LIPTON, ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL. "Through there," he said.


Cathy walked in, clutching her books. Something funny was going on. Mr. Lipton was in charge of student discipline at Cresswell, and he had bigger stuff to worry about than anything she might have done lately.


The next surprise was waiting inside. Mr. Lipton sat in a chair to one side, busying himself with some papers in his lap. A strange man sat behind the desk. He had a bulging manilla folder, a thick legal pad, and a portable tape recorder.


The man looked up. He was thin, with brown hair and a deeply creased face. In the light from the windows behind him, a thin swatch of stubble showed along one side of his jaw, as if he had shaved in a hurry this morning. He tapped the recorder and it began to whir.


"Take a seat, Miss" -- he looked down at his note pad--"Atmore."


Cathy sat.


"My name is Detective Rogers, Cresswell Police Department. I have a few questions for you."


"Yes, sir," Cathy said.


"First I'd like you to look at this photo," said the detective. "Do you recognize this person?"


He pulled a picture out of his folder and pushed it across the desk. Cathy leaned forward and picked it up. The picture was from last year's Cresswell High yearbook. It showed a blonde girl in a cheerleader's letter sweater smiling at the camera.


"Yes," Cathy said. "That Jennie. Jennifer Brodie."


"How well do you know Miss Brodie?"


"She's my best friend," Cathy said. Her uneasiness grew stronger. "Is something wrong?" she asked. "Is Jennie okay?"


"Just answer the questions, please," Detective Rogers said. "How long have you known Miss Brodie?"


"Since first grade at least," Cathy said. "Please, sir, what's the--"


"When was the last time you saw Miss Brodie?" Rogers cut in, his face expressionless.


"Last Friday," Cathy answered. "Friday night."


"About what time?"


"Nine or nine-thirty," she said. "I don't remember exactly. We were at a party."


"Where would that have been?"


"At Eric's house.


The detective looked at his notebook. "Eric Skidwell?"


Cathy nodded. "He's on the football team, and the party was to celebrate winning the game against Arnold High. We lost, but he went on with the party anyway."


"I see," the detective said. "And who else was there?"


The questioning seemed to go on and on. Had Jennie come to the party alone? Did she leave alone? Did she seem happy? Sad? Worried? Who were her friends? Who were her enemies?


Cathy answered all the questions the best she could, and all the time the sinking feeling in the pit of her stomach grew stronger--worse than not doing her homework, worse than not knowing the answers on a test.


She didn't know what to say about enemies. Jennie didn't have enemies--everyone in the school wanted to be her friend. She used to laugh about it. And Jennie liked being everyone's friend, too.


"Do you think Miss Brodie might talk to strangers?" Yes, she might; she'd talk to anybody, even nerds like Stu Martin and Bill Madsen, who spent most of their time communing with their keyboards down in the computer lab. "Did you see any strangers around the party?" No, not that Cathy recalled. "Did Miss Brodie mention meeting any strangers over the last couple of weeks?" No, Jennie hadn't. "Did Miss Brodie try to get in touch with you any time over the weekend?" Not that Cathy knew of; she'd been in Fall River with her mother from Saturday morning until Sunday night.


At last the detective looked up from his notebook. "Thank you for your cooperation, Miss--ah, Atmore. If you think of anything else to tell me, you can reach me at this number." He handed across a business card with his name and the detective bureau number printed on it. Cathy slipped the card into her purse.


"That will be all," said the detective. "Please ask Mr. Cooder to send in the next student."


Numbly, Cathy stood and turned to go.


She walked out into the hall where Mr. Cooder was waiting. As soon as Cathy came through the door, Mr. Cooder pointed with his pencil at Linda Sturgess.


"Next," he said. Linda went into the assistant principal's office.


Cathy made her way to the second floor and Mr. Osgood's room. She was halfway to her seat before she noticed that she was in the wrong class, and she retreated, embarrassed, amid the sound of laughter.


The bell for the end of first period must have rung while she was with the detective, and she hadn't even noticed. She went on to her second-period math class, and even though she'd done all the homework here--she enjoyed math, and she was good at it--she didn't hear a word the teacher said all period. She couldn't wrench her thoughts away from the image of the police detective, asking his patient questions down in the assistant principal's office.


And those questions, all about friends and enemies and when-did-you-see-her-last--Detective Rogers wouldn't be asking questions like that if everything were okay. Something was wrong. Something had happened to Jennie Brodie.

[Judg]

It's kind of hard for us to catch the foreshadowing when we don't know the rest of the story. You're going to have to point it out.

Pointing out what you would do differently now could be a useful exercise too. Seeing as you want us to be kind, I won't make any attempt. Once the questioning started in the principal's office, it sucked me right in.

[James D. Macdonald]

I may yet go through this chapter line-by-line, trying to recreate what I was thinking at the time.

The problems I had in the first chapter were to a) introduce the characters, b) get in the necessary backstory, and c) make the cop unsympathetic so that later on (when Cathy figures out Who Dun It) she'd try to handle the problem herself rather than do what any rational being would do and call the police.

Anyone interested in what happened next: Used copies are available on the 'Net starting at about one cent (plus shipping and handling).

[batgirl]

Thanks, everyone, for the perspectives - very helpful!
Workshop habits - I'm revising a novel, and I swear half of what I'm cutting was there because of that workshop habit of repeating 'Our Story So Far' info in each fresh chapter. The other half is what I wrote for myself, working out what rooms looked like and what people were thinking at various points. (My characters think too much, and unfortunately it only makes them dangerous to the poor reader.)
The odd thing about the character's age is that I figured there were the sort of 'showing' clues, like the Super Salmon swimming badge, a Barbie backpack she was embarrassed to still have, her manner of speech, etc. as well as flat-out telling. But the telling did happen only once, and could have been missed or forgotten.
So I guess the lesson is that if more than one reader misses something, and if I think it's important, I need to point it up more, though hopefully without slowing things down. If only one reader misses it, or if I decide that it doesn't really matter, then I shouldn't fuss about it, and just leave it as a sparkly for the clever buggers.
I need to pay more attention to where that information is being placed - sometimes I think I'm so clever sneaking backstory into the cracks, but maybe I'm outsmarting myself, sigh.
-Barbara

[James D. Macdonald]

I need to pay more attention to where that information is being placed

The source of information and the point of interest should be the same place.

Because people's interest keeps wandering, it's up to you to direct 'em.

This is another place where Henning Nelms shines. I really, really recommend Magic and Showmanship (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0486410870/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/).

[laidback]

I may yet go through this chapter line-by-line, trying to recreate what I was thinking at the time.

Thanks for sharing, Jim!

I have to admit I would have missed the fogged glasses as foreshadowing if you had not tipped us off.

Even more than wanting to hear your line-by-line, I would love to hear what you might have done differently now. It can be easy to see how to make average writing better, but so much harder to see what could make good writing great. While it's clearly professional writing, it doesn't "sing" like newer excerpts you've posted. Yet, with the exception of a few minor points, I would be hard-pressed to improve upon it.

[James D. Macdonald]

Foreshadowing doesn't really work if you put big flashing signs on it that say "Hey, guys, this is foreshadowing!"

Foreshadowing should be subtle. It's part of what makes the ending we choose be the "right" ending, because it feels right to the readers.


If you're going to have a major character die of cancer at the end, have a minor character eat a crab-meat sandwich in chapter one.

[Dragonquill]

If you're going to have a major character die of cancer at the end, have a minor character eat a crab-meat sandwich in chapter one.

And hope most of your readers are astrologers.

That's very subtle, all right. I'll keep that in mind. :)

[Chris Grey]

And hope most of your readers are astrologers.

That's very subtle, all right. I'll keep that in mind. :)

Anyone who's ever read their horoscope in a newspaper will have seen a little picture of a crab next to the word "Cancer," even if it's not their sign. It might not mean anything to them, but the seed is planted. Done right, nobody but sandwich afficiandos will pay it any mind on the first read. Done anything but wrong, nobody but you and the harshest of cynics will know it means anything until at least the second read.

Great tip, UJ!

[Don]

Whew! Over 6700 posts in a week. What a reading experience. I thought I might have some idea of what writing was about before I read this thread. Now I know how little I really understood. Thanks to UJ and the other posters for all I've learned already.

So how about the following opening? Would you turn the page? Anybody care to do a line-by-line? I'm just wondering if I really learned anything here or not.

George awoke to the feel of a gloved hand across his mouth. His eyes flew open in surprise. In the glow from the bedside clock, he could see his neighbor's face, a finger in front of his lips, signifying silence. He started, then nodded his acquiesence. The hand dropped from his mouth to his shoulder as his neighbor whispered.

"Grab some pants and follow me, quickly. I'll explain in a minute."

Bill had been his neighbor just long enough to earn a measure of trust, even in his confused state. George did as he asked, slipping quickly into pants and shoes. He grabbed his wallet and keys from the bedside table and slid them into his pockets automatically, then followed Bill quickly down the hall and out the back door.

"Where's Amy?" Bill asked, as they were moving across the back yard.

"Her mom was feeling bad, so she went down to visit for the weekend."

Bill nodded, then continued across the field toward the woods. George followed, questions surging through his head as he became more awake, more aware of the bizarre situation.

[James D. Macdonald]

George awoke to the feel of a gloved hand across his mouth. In the glow from the bedside clock, he could see Bill, his neighbor, a finger in front of his lips, signifying silence.

The hand dropped from his mouth to his shoulder. Bill whispered, "Grab some pants and follow me, quickly. I'll explain in a minute."

George followed Bill down the hall and out the back door.

"Where's Amy?" Bill asked, as they were moving across the back yard.

"Her mom was feeling bad, so she went down to visit for the weekend."

Bill nodded, then continued across the field toward the woods.


I'd be interested in seeing where you're going with this.

[MrWrite]

Would definitely keep me reading. Can you post page 2 and 3 so we see what happens next? ;)

[Don]

Since there's some interest, I'll post one more section of the first scene. I don't want to take over this thread, so I'll start a thread in SYW for more if someone can tell me where, based on what I've posted so far. I'm not sure if it belongs in SF/F, Contemporary/Mainstream, or Other.



Bill nodded, then continued across the field toward the woods. He led the way up the face of the hill that defined the back of the subdivision. The full moon and crisp autumn sky allowed for a clear view of the landscape as their eyes adjusted. The homes below were mostly on three to five acre plots, with a few of the larger ones on as much as ten acres.

Bill led them behind a rock outcropping well above George's home. Sitting on the ground were two other men, one late middle-aged, the other perhaps in his mid-twenties. The men waved a casual greeting as the two travelers settled in across from them.

"George, I think you remember Frank Stevens from the 4th of July cookout. Frank is a doctor, and his wife Beth is an emergency room nurse." The older man nodded at George and held out his hand.

"Yes, I remember. Nice to see you again, Frank. I remember that new Jag you were driving. That sure is a pretty car."

George noticed the grim look on Frank's face as he answered. "Yeah, it is, I hope I get to keep it."

"What do you mean, you hope you get to keep it?" He turned to Bill. "Are you ready to tell my why you dragged me all the way up here in the middle of the night now?"

Bill glanced over at Frank. "Seen anything happening yet?"

Frank shook his head in negation, then swung around to keep an eye on the roads below.

"Well, I guess we've got time for the short version before the excitement starts. Not only is Frank a doctor, his hobby is firearms. He's a licensed dealer, since some of his guns are illegal for the average guy to own. Apparently somebody in the bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms thinks he's up to no good. His home's going to get raided in a little while." When George started to interrupt, Bill waved him off.

"Luckily, Ted Winston, the county sheriff, knows Frank better than that, so he sent his son up to warn him when he heard things were going to get interesting early in the morning." He gestured toward the younger of the two men. "George, meet Larry Winston. Larry, this is George Adams. He's only been living in the area a couple of months."

Larry stuck out his hand for a quick greeting, nodding to George as he did so.

"Well, Frank," George said, "I'm sorry to hear about your problems, but what's that got to do with me?"

Larry took the lead in the conversation. "Mr. Adams, we're not really sure. All we know is there are two addresses on the warrants, and the second address is yours."

[Don]

UJ,

Wow, great edits. Now I see what you mean about every word. You cut out all the fat, and left the meat. This sped things up, which adds to the urgency of George's awakening moments. I wonder about the third paragraph, though.


Bill had been his neighbor just long enough to earn a measure of trust, even in his confused state. George did as he asked, slipping quickly into pants and shoes. He grabbed his wallet and keys from the bedside table and slid them into his pockets automatically, then followed Bill quickly down the hall and out the back door.


You trimmed that a lot, to this:

George followed Bill down the hall and out the back door.


Of course, you don't know that the short term as neighbors and the wallet and keys are important to the plot. The shoes aren't a big deal, I guess most people would assume Bill meant to wear shoes as well as pants.

How about this?
Bill had been his neighbor just long enough to earn a measure of trust, so George did as he asked. He grabbed his wallet and keys and slid them into his pockets automatically, then followed Bill down the hall and out the back door.

After some more thought, how about this instead?
Bill had been his neighbor just long enough to earn a measure of trust, so George did as he asked. He grabbed his wallet and keys, then followed Bill down the hall and out the back door.

[Sunshine13]

Some really interesting stuff so far (and Hi Uncle Jim! I think this is my first time to actually speak in one of your threads, though I've read several [not enough] of them).

Don, some things I noticed that I did at first too until someone pointed them out to ME, using 'as' (which makes it more passive than it should be sometimes) and adverbs that really don't spice things up. For instance, the sliding of his keys and wallet...you don't need automatically. Obviously, it is since it was the first thing he did when getting up.

"as he asked" you can't do anything about, but sentences with things like: "He looked up at the moon as he treaded across the field." Could just be: "He looked up at the moon and treaded across the field." or "He looked up at the moon while treading across the field." Lame examples, but maybe the point is clear.

Hope I helped. It took me some time to go through my WIP back when I started it and trim out all the "as", "that", and "was" 's that I could feasibly get away with to make it smooth, active, etc.

[James D. Macdonald]

What would I do differently?

Well. How about this?

Cathy recognized most of the other students. They were all friends of hers--well, she admitted, not close friends exactly.

If they were all her friends I hope she recognized them. Delete "most of."

For all the time and space I give to Mr. Osgood and the Dred Scott decision, neither play any part in the rest of the book. They're just there to fill space. That's a terrible idea. They aren't advancing the plot or supporting the theme. The only tiny bit of justification is that they reveal Cathy's character, but only the tiniest bit, and there are better ways to do that.

Incidentally, Cathy was named Rachel in the submitted draft. Then the cover copy came out with the wrong name on it, so we had to search-and-replace on Rachel. It ruined several of my references to A Study in Scarlet.

The way this book came about: The publisher wanted a line of teen-horror (R. L. Stine was very big back then). So they came up with the idea of an eight-book series. Then the editor went on maternity leave without getting authors for the last two books in the series. They noticed over at the publisher when it was a month before they were supposed to go to press. So I got a phone call asking if I could write two novels in a month. My answer was "No, but I can write one." This was that book.

[wrinkles]

UJ - It's way past time I thanked you for the help you give to aspiring authors. I truly believe there is no better writing resource than this thread, anywhere. Not to mention the effort you and Victoria Strauss expend to keep inexperienced writers out of the clutches of the con artists.

Viable Paradise sounds like a hoot. I would love to attend, but I don't write science fiction. So, keep up the good work. I wish you good health, a friendly muse, hot food, cold beer, and all other blessings of life.

[James D. Macdonald]

I've handed all my posts from this thread to Doyle, and asked her to edit it into a book.

[Quossum]

Yay!

Catching up on reading this thread has been a "project" of mine since I joined. Great stuff!

--Q

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I've handed all my posts from this thread to Doyle, and asked her to edit it into a book.

Very good news.

Thanks Uncle Jim, it looks like another writing book will be going on my 'to buy' list.

[James D. Macdonald]

That reminds me of something Steve Brust said, citing Jim Macdonald, during one of the (recorded) Fourth Street convention panels (http://cluebytwelve.net/4thSt2008/), about how there are two kinds of magic tricks: 1) the kind with a gimmicked device (a stacked or marked deck, or a box with a false bottom), and 2) the kind done by skill, prestidigitation. The difference is that after you know how they're both done, you can still appreciate watching the trick done with prestidigitation.


Passing for Human (http://avocadovpx.livejournal.com/126843.html)

That, my good friends, is the difference too between a novel you can read once, and novel you can read many times.


===========

Please go to the recorded panels. Listen to them. There is much to be learned.

[James D. Macdonald]

A first novel is your first published novel, regardless of whether you've written twenty others before.

You'll hear it said that a first-time author should write a book between 80K and 100K words. Here's why that is:

Publishers know about how many copies of a first novel usually sell. Printing a whole lot more than that number doesn't make sense: they'll just fill the warehouse with unsalable merchandise.

Publishers know the cost-per-unit of books of various page lengths.

Publishers know the price that customers will pay for a book.

Given a known print-run, and the known discount that must be given to get bookstore distribution at a known cover price, the only variable is page count. So to make a profit on a first-timer, publishers are looking for 100K words or less.

Generally.

There's always the Genius Exception (e.g. Susanna Clarke).

[HConn]

I have a question for Uncle Jim and anyone else who'd like to chime in: My first novel will be coming out next May (data point for the previous post--it's 104K long, which is close enough for hand grenades, I think) and I'm currently working on the sequel.

This is the first novel I've ever written with a contract and under deadline. It's a little stressful, sure, but I haven't needed smelling salts yet. What I have been doing is talking about the writing process on my LiveJournal.

Some of this is "What a productive day I had!" or "I'm grateful to the protagonist's best friend for solving a plot problem without any prompting."

On the other hand, some is "What am I doing?" "Why do these characters keep sitting around talking when I want them to go out and protag?" and "Somebody shoot me."

You know, the normal stuff that happens anytime I write something.

But I have to wonder if I'm scaring readers off. Are they likely to read that stuff and think "This guy don't know what he's doing. Avoid!" or should I not worry about it. The LiveJournal isn't there for promotional purposes, and it's mighty helpful to have a place to vent.

Thoughts?

[Chris Grey]

I have a question for Uncle Jim and anyone else who'd like to chime in: My first novel will be coming out next May (data point for the previous post--it's 104K long, which is close enough for hand grenades, I think) and I'm currently working on the sequel.

This is the first novel I've ever written with a contract and under deadline. It's a little stressful, sure, but I haven't needed smelling salts yet. What I have been doing is talking about the writing process on my LiveJournal.

Some of this is "What a productive day I had!" or "I'm grateful to the protagonist's best friend for solving a plot problem without any prompting."

On the other hand, some is "What am I doing?" "Why do these characters keep sitting around talking when I want them to go out and protag?" and "Somebody shoot me."

You know, the normal stuff that happens anytime I write something.

But I have to wonder if I'm scaring readers off. Are they likely to read that stuff and think "This guy don't know what he's doing. Avoid!" or should I not worry about it. The LiveJournal isn't there for promotional purposes, and it's mighty helpful to have a place to vent.

Thought?


Once you're in the public eye, be very careful with regards to venting.

[James D. Macdonald]

Don't say anything, anywhere, that you don't want to hear Dan Rather read on the Six O'Clock News.

But, having said that, there's nothing wrong with showing that you're human. You'll be building up a bunch of people who will be looking for a book by their friend. They're watching its progress, rooting for you to finish it, and looking forward to buying it the minute it comes out. What's the harm in that?

[HConn]

Thank you both.

[Jake Barnes]

To Uncle Jim:

A long time he wrote a post regarding a John Grisham novel and commented, "This falls in line with the principle that we answer the readers' questions a moment before they ask them."

But doesn't the writer often delay answering a readers' questions, sometimes for most of the book? The reader may not find out who the killer is in a murder mystery until the next-to-last page. Often questions aren't answered, even on relatively mundane mattes, to heighten suspense. Am I missing something here?

[Fillanzea]

I think that the failure to answer a question *is* a way of answering a question.

In Angela Johnson's novel "The First Part Last," the main character, Bobby, is a teenage father who has sole custody of his infant daughter. This is an unusual situation that immediately raises the question, where is the mother in this picture? Johnson makes sure that the reader raises the question - and then doesn't answer it, because the mother's absence is a hugely important part of the book, and Bobby's attempt to deal with the mother's absence is also a hugely important part of the book.

So if the reader asks a question that remains unanswered, the reader is going to be led to think that it's an important part of the story - you don't want to leave it dangling if it's completely irrelevant! (Example: I read most of "Twilight" by Stephenie Meyer thinking that the main point of the story was "When is she going to figure out that her vampire boyfriend is controlling and borderline abusive?" when the point of the story is actually, "Is she going to be able to stay with her totally hot and awesome vampire boyfriend?")

[James D. Macdonald]

There are questions, and there are questions.

The point of a Whodunit isn't who done it. It's how will the detective figure it out. Thus the question that the author must answer the moment before the reader asks isn't "Who's the killer, anyway?" but "Why the foo is Poirot sending Captain Hastings to Cardiff?"

[batgirl]

So, could you say that there are
a) questions you do want the reader to ask, like "Who's the killer?" "What happened to Joe when he went into the cellar?": questions that cause them to keep reading, and
b) questions you don't want the reader to have to ask, like "Where is this story happening?" "Why doesn't she just call the police?": questions that cause the reader to be distracted from the story?

-Barbara

[Perle_Rare]

b) questions you don't want the reader to have to ask, like "Where is this story happening?" "Why doesn't she just call the police?": questions that cause the reader to be distracted from the story?


Like:

Why don't I just ditch this book and go for pizza? :D

[Diane]

Mmmm. Pizza.

[blacbird]

"Why don't you just shoot him?"

-- Scott Evil

caw

[Seif]

b) questions you don't want the reader to have to ask, like "Where is this story happening?" "Why doesn't she just call the police?": questions that cause the reader to be distracted from the story?

-Barbara

Isn't that just a result of bad writing/ plot layout etc., or is there such a thing as deliberate bad writing?

[maestrowork]

b) questions you don't want the reader to have to ask, like "Where is this story happening?" "Why doesn't she just call the police?": questions that cause the reader to be distracted from the story?

-Barbara


Well, it depends. Not revealing the setting, for example, can be a way to create suspense (where the heck are we? An alien spaceship? But where, and how?). Of course, the answer should be presented, better sooner than later.

As for "Why doesn't she call the police?" -- it depends on a few things:

a) if it's totally out of character and illogical. If that's the case, then I'd say it's a plot/character issue and yes, it will distract or even cause the readers to throw the book across the room;

b) if it's not something a reader would do, but it fits the character, then you will ask, "Why did the do that? What's the motive?" Again, it becomes suspense. There's something she's not telling us. She's hiding something! And suspense makes us turn the next page.

[laidback]

"This falls in line with the principle that we answer the readers' questions a moment before they ask them."

Jake, I interpreted that advice differently: just another way of saying "Never tell the reader anything before he cares!" which Uncle Jim has posted earlier in this thread.

[pictopedia]

Hello SRHowen,

what are these edits you are describing? Can you explain? Thanks!

[James D. Macdonald]

Hello SRHowen,

what are these edits you are describing? Can you explain? Thanks!

Hi, pictopedia --

This thread is nearly 7,000 messages long. Can you give us a hint what post you're asking about?

[Dichroic]

But I have to wonder if I'm scaring readers off. Are they likely to read that stuff and think "This guy don't know what he's doing. Avoid!" or should I not worry about it. The LiveJournal isn't there for promotional purposes, and it's mighty helpful to have a place to vent.

Thoughts?


Do you read other authors' blogs? Just within LJ there's a ton of 'em. And as far as I can tell, talking about writing and her joys and frustrations with it has not hurt Elizabeth Bear's readership any. Or Emma Bull's, Steven Brust's, or a horde of others.

[jbryson]

Do you read other authors' blogs? Just within LJ there's a ton of 'em. And as far as I can tell, talking about writing and her joys and frustrations with it has not hurt Elizabeth Bear's readership any. Or Emma Bull's, Steven Brust's, or a horde of others.

Gets your name in front of people.

[pictopedia]

Hello Jim, hello everyone,
hm, sorry, thanks for asking. I had a question somewhere around post 800, when I was still young and innocent, and posted it foolishly, and off it sped into the future, from 2003 to 2008. I'm trotting after it ever since, trying to catch up with it, have aged and wised up rapidly in the process, but am still in 2004 (post 1197). I'll work my way towards you guys here in the present first before asking again.

Btw, thanks for all this here (she added and smiled, before disappearing in the dark tunnel sucking her back to the year 2004)

[pictopedia]

Hello again, back from the tunnel, sorry for interrupting,

I wanted to read the entire thread before posting, but an emergency has come up and I seriously need your help right now. I'm at a critical point in my WIP (mainstream fiction novel, 125000 words, in beta reading), and have started to doubt the underlying guiding metaphor, thus challenging future editing on the piece as it is. Please read on.


+++++++Long book synopsis+++++++++
Noah is an addict, escaped convict, and boat owner. He fought his way to freedom and survived the first flood, now making his way through a drowned world on his boat, diving for his needs in sunken cities. Is he “the” Noah?. He doesn’t feel chosen. White-knuckling with guilt ridden memories from his past, he runs from himself, stumbling into ill fated encounters with other survivors and asking himself “Why am I surviving”. As he nearly escapes a deadly fight with ex convicts on a small island, suddenly there is Adam, a strange rescuer, friend and enemy, who leaves him stranded in an empty city where he is confronted with the enemy in himself, but then Adam reappears and brings him to a camp where survivors are constructing a large ship. Noah’s attempt to flee fails, leaving him in the worst prison he has ever experienced. His only rescue is to dream of a woman in the camp, he secretly loves. But as his evil twin Darryl, a man on the other side of the law breaks him, and makes him work on the ship, Noah discovers something about himself that changes everything, but also, gives him no choice but to flee once again, and leave the woman behind, if he wants to protect the new found ground. Just then, the flood comes again, trapping him in an underground bunker with Adam where they learn to depend on each other. They get out, but the woman is dead, leaving him to ask himself why he destroys what he loves. Again, Adam saves him, as suddenly, Darryl forces Noah to take the final jump over his inner line in a last showdown, revealing that his rescuer Adam has betrayed him. But he finally turns into what he always was, boat owner and captain, leading a last group of eight survivors into a new world to complete his journey to higher ground.


+++++++Short book synopsis+++++++++
A fucked up guy who's name happens to be Noah who happened to survive a flood, in a boat, does a lot of really fucked up stuff, almost dies several times, then realises he has build himself an inner ark all this time, finds his strength, and finally gets on the goddamn boat (figuratively and really), thus becoming a new man.


Here is the question:
Should I drop the whole "Noah and inner/outer ark" thing? This could potentially be an entertaining book about a fucked up guy named "Jack", surviving a flood in a boat, finding himself. Might not be as strong, though, because what drives the story is the fact that you wonder how he gets to the ark at the end (it's not the ship he was helping to build, but his original boat). I'm just not sure if it is a bad choice for a first novel, being overdone, silly, not sellable, no matter how fantastically I pull it off? (I don't have any beta feedback so far, am currently hiding under my desk where they can't find me)

[James D. Macdonald]

Hey, it could work. Just make sure the story is strong enough to support the book even if the guy was named Jack. Watch the climax. "And they all got on a boat" seems a little weak for 125K words.

Just be sure you haven't written Waterworld by accident.

[ToddWBush]

Just be sure you haven't written Waterworld by accident.

Thanks Uncle Jim, I just started getting a rash just thinking about that horrible movie.

[pictopedia]

Thanks Uncle Jim, I just started getting a rash just thinking about that horrible movie.

Hi ToddWBush and Jim,
thanks for the feedback. *gulp* I was hoping I was far enough away (don't have futuristic clothes and swimming platforms; date is around 2033 and about half of it happens in buildings and on land). Is that already inside the accident, or so close to it that I'm being sucked in? I can't tell.

Two questions are strangling me. Please help me out. I've already come up from under my table and started the next book, but I need to know this for the *autsch* waterworld WIP:

1) Would you say that it's that whole "people surviving a flood" subject that's a hot iron? Should one steer clear of subjects linked to failed projects we all remember? (I'm not sure I'm good enough at this point to fight with Goliath, this being the first thing I've written and all)

2) Do you happened to have any examples from the top of your head of books that have a "Jack" as leading character and sold ok? (not detective, secret agent, in contact with aliens, superhero, real person (faked or really autobiographical), war hero, biblical character etc, just an ordinary guy)

Thanks!

[James D. Macdonald]

Jack and the Beanstalk?

[MoonWriter]

Lee Child's MC - Jack Reacher.

[pictopedia]

Ok, the lazy fairy tale boy and the disgruntled ex elite military cop, two totally ordinary, everyday people named Jack. I guess I asked for it.

But, really, Jack is drowning here. Any other advice for him, before he is sucked back into the tunnel and forced to live on in waterworld? (Something he could fix his mind on? The tunnel is so long and dark)

[allenparker]

Forget what others have written. Forget what you know about the movies, books, and radio mysteries. Write your story. Make it exciting and make it so good that people beg to read it.

Your story will be judged on its merits, not what others did.

My suggestion on Noah. Reread Genesis again. Study not only the flood story, but read about Noah's father and grandfather. Then spend a little time reading some of the commentaries about Noah and his life after the flood. There is much back story about Noah available.

As an aside, Noah's family, the ones not on the boat, perished in the flood. Methuselah probably died in the flood. It is interesting that a man who obviously found such favor with God would fail at the end of his 900 + year life and die in the flood. Or perhaps Methuselah's death Made Noah the only righteous man left.

In any event, Noah has some great angles to work. The "not Noah" Noah could really draw some interesting parallels if he wished.

just a thought...

[Renfaery]

Next thing: Two books for you to read, over the weekend. They're novels, but you'll find lessons on writing in them if you care to dig those lessons out.

First, <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312860390/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="new">The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars</A> by Steven Brust.

Second, <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0451169522/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="new">Misery</a> by Stephen King.

Of the two I recommend the Brust more highly. You can buy copies, get 'em from your library, interlibrary loan, whatever.

(Please note, too, that Brust's book is still in print, even though it was first published in 1987.)

I want to add to this that lessons can also be found in Bag of Bones by Stephen King. I prefer it to Misery, but to each his own.

[pictopedia]

Thanks allenparker! You're right. Great suggestions! I haven't really explored these angles. I can feel the wind in my sail again.

After a sleepless night rewriting the setup in my mind over and over again, I also realised that it's too late for a massive change of the story and that I need to return to what eats me up inside with the character. I'll risk it and run with it again.

Thinks I just stumbled over myself. Thanks allenparker for pulling me up and pushing me back into my direction.

[James D. Macdonald]

The single most important thing is this: Write your book. All else fades to nothingness beside it.

[Sailor Kenshin]

I've got a specific question. When writing fantasy, even fantasy set in the present day and in a realistic city or suburb, is it feasible to 'make stuff up?' (as in your own streetnames, landscape details, rituals, etc).

Didn't JK Rowling do this to good effect in her series?

[James D. Macdonald]

Sure, make things up. (I mean, it's fiction, right?)

Just know why you're making things up. Use real names, use made-up names, just so long as they support the theme, advance the plot, or reveal character. You're the artist: Do what you want, but do it for a reason.

Don't confuse the readers, stay consistent, and you'll be fine.

[Renfaery]

Sorry in advance if this has been covered, I've spent two days trying to read the whole thread and still haven't made it...

Uncle Jim,

Can you give us any insights/advice on working with a coauthor?

[James D. Macdonald]

Insights/advice on working with a collaborator?

Lots of people work in lots of ways. Here's how Doyle and I do it:

I write the outline (what some people would call the first draft). Doyle rewrites it. I rewrite that. She rewrites the result. And so on until we're both happy with the result. (This eventually comes down to trading sheets of paper back and forth, writing on 'em with red pencil, until we're happy with that sheet of paper before moving on to the next, but that's late-game.)

I have final say on plot. She has final say on prose.

It's worked for us for over twenty years, so I guess it's good for us. Something else might work better for you.

==========

In other news, go watch Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog (http://www.drhorrible.com/index.html).

[kzmiller]

Even if it seems silly, unless the coauthor is your spouse, put together a contract and include an out clause that you can both live with. If nothing else putting that contract together will get you both to talk about expectations. Differing expectations have busted up many a fine coauthoring team.

[HConn]

KZMiller is right. Have an agreement between the two of you spelling out what work each of you will be doing, and who will be responsible for what tasks.

And write it with the understanding that, you and your writing partner will get along famously, but you may both die in a fiery car crash. Then, each of your heirs will blame the other person and hate each other with a white hot fury.

[James D. Macdonald]

And consider who gets reprint rights, while you're at it.

[*Pudge*]

Sorry in advance if this has been covered, I've spent two days trying to read the whole thread and still haven't made it...

Uncle Jim,

Can you give us any insights/advice on working with a coauthor?


Phew!! Me too, but it's all so great.

[*Pudge*]

I've got a specific question. When writing fantasy, even fantasy set in the present day and in a realistic city or suburb, is it feasible to 'make stuff up?' (as in your own streetnames, landscape details, rituals, etc).

Didn't JK Rowling do this to good effect in her series?


Hi Kenshin, I had a similar conversation earlier. I was looking for a fictional name for a place in Scotland and found some really useful bits on google,
Scottish Place Names
Place names in Scotland often have common prefixes, many derived from Gaelic. Ordinary words like ‘ben' and ‘glen' also appear frequently in names.
Prefix-Meaning
Ard-point
Auchen-field
Auchter-top of
Drum-ridge
Dun-hill or fort
Inch-island
Inver-at the mouth of a river
Kil-cell of a saint
Kinloch-at the head of a lake
Kirk-church, fort
Knock, Nock hillock
Strath-river valley

and have decided on Kilkirk - It's fictional but realistic (I hope). This may not help for fantasy though. All the best.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Thanks, P---very cool! I love names and what they stand for.

[earlyAMwriter]

Uncle Jim, this newbie is quite grateful for your wealth of knowledge. A couple pages back, someone mentioned writing that "sings". I've read this on other sources, but when I searched, not much on this thread. Is it one of those ethereal things you either have or don't? What value is placed on "singing" by agents and editors?

For my latest novel, I would say I first and second drafted simultaneously, as stated on another thread, then went through probably 3-5 additional passes. Where I thought I recognized "singing" I left well enough alone, though now I'm convinced it may have been plain old caterwauling instead.

Thanks a million for this thread, and for allowing me to paddle in the wading pool for a bit while you all speed swim in the deep end. ;)

[pictopedia]

I'd like to add my apple to Jim's table. Thank you so much for spending the time and effort, also to all the others here. What a fantastic place. Can't say how much it's helping me. I started from the beginning and am currently on page 103, feels like having enrolled in Jim University. The tuition is paid in bic and I'm in first semester. (how many where there again until graduation?)

I'd like to add something to earlyAMwriter's post, because I woke up this morning with a similar question. Hope this has not been answered somewhere between pages 103 and 274.

One of Jim's great sentences: "Practice doen't help a bit if you're practicing mistakes over and over again. Practice helps if you're improving, if you're thinking about what you're doing, if you're reinforcing what works and suppressing what doesn't."

My question to everybody: do you have examples for what you would call "good writing"? What are your favorite books that have worked for you in showing "how it's done right". Maybe not so much in terms of subject matter or story (which of course is part of the things that need to be done right), but maybe more in terms of: "I read it and couldn't find any mistakes, the writing was flawless". If you had to pick maybe just one or two, which ones would that be?

[CarolynR]

I know you put all this down long ago, but I for one am very appreciative of it.

Edited to say: I know you STARTED this long ago--I am only on page 6, but my head is happily swimming from everything I've read.

Having by necessity been forced to leave writing behind for several years, it is wonderful to have found this. It's not only a fantastic refresher course, but also confidence rebuilder. I know these things!!! Time away served to kill the confidence I once had in droves. It's going to be so much easier now to set aside the researching, and get working on that outline/first draft.

[James D. Macdonald]

For me, writing that "sings" is just another way of saying "really good writing." The right words in the right order to tell the right story.

[Melenka]

My question to everybody: do you have examples for what you would call "good writing"? What are your favorite books that have worked for you in showing "how it's done right". Maybe not so much in terms of subject matter or story (which of course is part of the things that need to be done right), but maybe more in terms of: "I read it and couldn't find any mistakes, the writing was flawless". If you had to pick maybe just one or two, which ones would that be?

The first one that comes to mind is Neil Gaiman's American Gods. Now, there may be flaws in it, but I was so wrapped up that I didn't notice any. I think some of it depends on how well you like what you're reading. Hemingway is meticulous and brilliant. I just don't enjoy reading his novels. His letters, on the other hand, are chock full of mistakes and I get a huge kick out of them.

[Perle_Rare]

A long time ago, Uncle Jim assigned:


Next thing: Two books for you to read, over the weekend. They're novels, but you'll find lessons on writing in them if you care to dig those lessons out.

First, <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312860390/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="new">The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars</A> by Steven Brust.

Second, <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0451169522/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="new">Misery</a> by Stephen King.

Of the two I recommend the Brust more highly. You can buy copies, get 'em from your library, interlibrary loan, whatever.

(Please note, too, that Brust's book is still in print, even though it was first published in 1987.)

Well, it took me a long time but I just picked up and read The Sun, the moon, & the Stars.

Original reaction after chapter 1: Uh? Weird. I wonder where this is going...

Reaction after a few more chapters: Different. Really different. But what a mine of information!

Reaction after completing the book: I could never have written anything like it and I suspect I never will. The main character discusses the techniques of painting with oil on canvas and the parallels to writing are vivid. There are a number of points he argues that I've seen argued right here on AW by writers. It's eerie...

Definitely worth a read. Thanks for the recommendation, Uncle Jim! :)

[Chrisla]

Uncle Jim -

I'm a newbie, and have been following this thread for a couple of weeks, yet I'm only to page 80. How can I write for two hours, try to do the exercises you suggest, perform all the necessary tasks imposed on me by my life, and have any hope of ever catching up? Not to mention that some of the links mentioned early on have either dried up or retired.

I've seen several posts, thanking you for your time and devotion to this thread. I'd like to thank you, too, and tell you what that means for me, personally.

I completed a family history/memoir, and had it printed, in hardback, for family and friends. They've all told me how wonderful the book is, how compelling the story is, how I have to publish it.

In pursuing that end, I found AW and this thread. I've learned that I did more than a little headhopping. I also did some information dumps--not through characters talking to each other, but through too much narration. I have POV problems I'm trying to resolve.

My point is that, through this thread, I know about the problems and I know how to fix some of them. Some4 of the problems have me stymied, but I'll learn. And I'd rather know about the flaws than to go on, blissfully unaware.

So, thank you, Uncle Jim and all the rest of you who provide thoughtful commentary. Perhaps, by the time I catch up, I'll be knowledgeable enough to contribute--that is, if I can figure out how to fix my POV prolem. . .

[jbryson]

Uncle Jim -

I'm a newbie, and have been following this thread for a couple of weeks, yet I'm only to page 80. How can I write for two hours, try to do the exercises you suggest, perform all the necessary tasks imposed on me by my life, and have any hope of ever catching up? Not to mention that some of the links mentioned early on have either dried up or retired.

I've seen several posts, thanking you for your time and devotion to this thread. I'd like to thank you, too, and tell you what that means for me, personally.

I completed a family history/memoir, and had it printed, in hardback, for family and friends. They've all told me how wonderful the book is, how compelling the story is, how I have to publish it.

In pursuing that end, I found AW and this thread. I've learned that I did more than a little headhopping. I also did some information dumps--not through characters talking to each other, but through too much narration. I have POV problems I'm trying to resolve.

My point is that, through this thread, I know about the problems and I know how to fix some of them. Some4 of the problems have me stymied, but I'll learn. And I'd rather know about the flaws than to go on, blissfully unaware.

So, thank you, Uncle Jim and all the rest of you who provide thoughtful commentary. Perhaps, by the time I catch up, I'll be knowledgeable enough to contribute--that is, if I can figure out how to fix my POV prolem. . .

Chrisla,

First of all, you're not writing a novel. You're writing history, and AFAICT, not even historical fiction. With non-fiction, info dumps are okay. That's what the reader is after. When you change a POV, just say so, so that the reader knows whose perspective you're using. Rules for fiction and non-fiction are different. Frex, with fantasy and non-fiction, events need not be plausible, as they must be with fiction.

Of course, any writing needs to be enjoyably readable.

[Chrisla]

Chrisla,

First of all, you're not writing a novel. You're writing history, and AFAICT, not even historical fiction. With non-fiction, info dumps are okay. That's what the reader is after. When you change a POV, just say so, so that the reader knows whose perspective you're using. Rules for fiction and non-fiction are different. Frex, with fantasy and non-fiction, events need not be plausible, as they must be with fiction.

Of course, any writing needs to be enjoyably readable.

See, I learned something else! I wanted this family history to read like a novel, and readers tell me it does. Maybe that's my problem. LOL.

Thanks.

[pictopedia]

See, I learned something else! I wanted this family history to read like a novel, and readers tell me it does. Maybe that's my problem. LOL.

Thanks.

Hi Chrisla,

I've been starting some research into what makes books successful (turn into best sellers, appear on Oprah's book club etc). I think that in many cases it is a well done mix between fantasy and reality. This is an example I found where Nicholas Sparks tells a true story, but writes it so well and so emotional, that it could be fiction (haven't read it myself, but it's a best seller): http://www.nicholassparks.com/Novels/TheNotebook/Notes.html

Not many people have something interesting to tell from their own family background, that would make a great fiction novel, if it wasn't true. I say: use it!

[CBumpkin]

It's nice to know I'm only five years late in joining this thread. (It's difficult to imagine a thread lasting nigh unto five years.)

I've read from the very beginning and highly encourage those who haven't to do so. I'm only on page 33 (800+ posts) but look forward to catching up soon.

It's been difficult not to respond to conversations that took place four years ago, but I managed nicely until I hit my favorite post so far, good ol' #782 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=83072&postcount=782), from March 22, 2004! (Remember that Salon article, Jim? Unbelievable!)

I have a question about comments from that article. What do editors mean, exactly, when they say a book isn't "commercial enough" for them? Presumably, that it doesn't have a wide enough appeal to sell well? What makes a novel "commercial enough" today?

From all I've read so far, Jim, I have two words to describe you: Gra - cious.

[CBumpkin]

Jim, do you still have a picture of your celtic knot outline? The link to the one you gave (in 2004) is dead. The link to the site that teaches celtic knots is alive, but I would appreciate seeing how you use the knot as your outline. (I'm old-fashioned and still use the old, high school outline with roman numerals. It works for me, but I'm very interested in seeing your method and how it weaves the story together.) Thank you!

Jack

[James D. Macdonald]

What do editors mean, exactly, when they say a book isn't "commercial enough" for them?

Do they know how to sell enough copies to cover production costs, plus make a bit of profit.

[CBumpkin]

Thanks, Jim.

I have a question about originality. "They" say there are no new, original ideas anymore, just old ideas retold. How can a writer know if a story idea is worth writing? Is there anything a writer should keep in mind when deciding which idea to pursue?

Jack

[James D. Macdonald]

Is there anything a writer should keep in mind when deciding which idea to pursue?


Write the book that you want to read.

[CBumpkin]

That's the advice I've always heard, and followed. I've just never heard it from a professional before.

After reading 40 pages of posts, I must say, I'm completing many of your exercises. I checked the chess book out of my local library and typed the first chapter of two of my favorite novels. (I intend to do this for every book I read, good or bad.)

I've also ordered several of the books you recommended and have quite a few of them already. I ordered the Cut and Assemble Victorian Cottage (http://www.amazon.com/Assemble-Victorian-Cottage-Buildings-Scale/dp/0486273113/ref=pd_sxp_grid_i_1_1), too.

Just thought you'd like to know that your old posts and advice are being used and taken seriously. One thing I've learned in my 42 years is to listen to the pros, whether you understand the benefits of the advice or not. Fortunately, I do see the benefits and I'm grateful to you.

[Chrisla]

Hi Chrisla,

I've been starting some research into what makes books successful (turn into best sellers, appear on Oprah's book club etc). I think that in many cases it is a well done mix between fantasy and reality. This is an example I found where Nicholas Sparks tells a true story, but writes it so well and so emotional, that it could be fiction (haven't read it myself, but it's a best seller): http://www.nicholassparks.com/Novels/TheNotebook/Notes.html

Not many people have something interesting to tell from their own family background, that would make a great fiction novel, if it wasn't true. I say: use it!

The Notebook was fiction, based on the lives of his wife's grandparents. So, are you suggesting that maybe I should write this story as fiction, based on the real story?

The thought has entered my mind, because it would be much easier to do it that way. But family members resist, telling me the story would "lose it's impact," if written as fiction, or that "nobody would ever believe it."

Then again, I've given them their story, in hardback, complete with photos, old letters, newspaper clippings and other documentation. (I'm in the process now of stripping all that out, preparing the book for revision, with an eye toward publication.

What gives me the best chance for publication? Non fiction or fiction?

[James D. Macdonald]

How interesting is the story to anyone who isn't related to you?

[Chrisla]

How interesting is the story to anyone who isn't related to you?

It's only recently been finding its way to some of those. Of the three who are not related and who have finished the book, the comments have been much the same as the family's comments. They tell me that it's a compelling story, that I pulled them into it, and that they want another copy for a friend or relative. This is for a hardcover book, at $28 a pop, not much more than my printing costs.

That said, these are friends or acquaintances, so I suppose I need to clean up the manuscript (strip out photos, etc.) and try to find some beta readers.

Thanks.

[pictopedia]

The Notebook was fiction, based on the lives of his wife's grandparents. So, are you suggesting that maybe I should write this story as fiction, based on the real story?

I wonder at what percentage he put the mix of reality and fiction. He must have thought about that, and then decided on somewhere. I wonder if it is more fiction than reality or the other way around. I wonder if you could write him an email and ask him, if he thought about making it more realistic or more fictional, and what he ended up deciding on. Obviously the result ended up working for many people who didn't mind where the percentage lies, as long as it is "based" on truth and at the same time feels like truth.

I guess in terms of preserving his relatives memory this way, he succeeded. But is it okay to do it by exaggerating or altering the truth? Good question. In any case, he must have touched the truthful core of the subject matter. And everything that we write somehow originated from something we saw or experienced exactly a certain way, then branches into fiction at a certain point, without altering the truth. Brain twister.

This is a tough one. I don't know what I would do, actually. I'd probably branch off into fiction in several places, but try to stay true to the character, so that it is plausible he or she could have done this or that, even if nobody remembers it. Kind of like good film music. You know it's been good when you don't notice it and it becomes part of the story.

[James D. Macdonald]

Don't let the truth get in the way of telling a good story.

And ... "but it really happened that way!" is no excuse in fiction.

[Chrisla]

I wonder at what percentage he put the mix of reality and fiction. He must have thought about that, and then decided on somewhere. I wonder if it is more fiction than reality or the other way around. I wonder if you could write him an email and ask him, if he thought about making it more realistic or more fictional, and what he ended up deciding on. Obviously the result ended up working for many people who didn't mind where the percentage lies, as long as it is "based" on truth and at the same time feels like truth.

I guess in terms of preserving his relatives memory this way, he succeeded. But is it okay to do it by exaggerating or altering the truth? Good question. In any case, he must have touched the truthful core of the subject matter. And everything that we write somehow originated from something we saw or experienced exactly a certain way, then branches into fiction at a certain point, without altering the truth. Brain twister.

This is a tough one. I don't know what I would do, actually. I'd probably branch off into fiction in several places, but try to stay true to the character, so that it is plausible he or she could have done this or that, even if nobody remembers it. Kind of like good film music. You know it's been good when you don't notice it and it becomes part of the story.

Yes, I think everything we write is part non-fiction. I'm also 50,000 words into a mystery, and I've used people I know as characters (well disguised, of course), and we all use places we know. We write from the emotions we've felt and the experiences we've lived through. How else could we write?

I realize, too, this is part of the problem with my family story. It's true, but I often find myself wanting to create incidents or scenes, just to draw the structure together into a cohesive story, or to add drama to the bland telling of something that really happened. I'm sure those scenes and events probably never happened in exactly the way I've described them, and I'm not sure how much license one has with non-fiction. Nor can I find any information on the subject. I suspect this may be what they call "creative non-fiction." Too bad there's not a non-fiction thread like Uncle Jim's.

Thanks for your interest. I appreciate your thoughts.

[CBumpkin]

Jim, are there any specific blogs that you believe every writer should read?

[Renfaery]

Jim, are there any specific blogs that you believe every writer should read?

To add to this question: What about podcasts to listen to?

[Akuma]

To add to this question: What about podcasts to listen to?


I recommend Grammar Girl, for starters.

[James D. Macdonald]

The difference between fiction and non-fiction is that in fiction we're telling our own lies; in non-fiction we're telling someone else's.

Many of the same techniques that novelists use can be used to good effect in non-fiction.

As far as blogs or podcasts that every writer needs to read:

I don't know. If there's one out there that helps you get words on paper, that's a good one for you.

[James D. Macdonald]

Tired of listening to me natter on about writing? Here's a list of links (http://www.velcro-city.co.uk/the-writing-advice-links-they-are-legion/) to other people nattering on about writing.


As always, take the advice that seems good and works for you.

[smoothseas]

The difference between fiction and non-fiction is that in fiction we're telling our own lies; in non-fiction we're telling someone else's.


how very true!


p.s. I've enjoyed this thread a lot, thank you...

[Chrisla]

Tired of listening to me natter on about writing? Here's a list of links (http://www.velcro-city.co.uk/the-writing-advice-links-they-are-legion/) to other people nattering on about writing.


As always, take the advice that seems good and works for you.

No, I'm not tired of listening. I'm still trying to catch up, and doing a poor job of it. I had to stop to organize my notes--lots of notes. And I'm trying to do the exercises. I've bought the Chicago Manual of Style and ordered Fowler's Modern English Usage Dictionary, as well as The Trojan Women, The Miller's Tale and Dashiell Hammett's Red Harvest. I plan to start watching Fist Full of Dollars today while I work out on my rowing machine. (Amazon.com should do well this quarter.)

It's always a balancing act between trying to write every day, organizing my notes and doing my exercises, and I haven't found any way to stretch the hours in my day, so I suspect it will be a long time before I catch up.

But I'm learning, and I do thank you.

[Ken Schneider]

Tired of listening to me natter on about writing? Here's a list of links (http://www.velcro-city.co.uk/the-writing-advice-links-they-are-legion/) to other people nattering on about writing.


As always, take the advice that seems good and works for you.


Not! Still here. Just lurking more.

be well, ken

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's something bizarre: A video explaining how to submit your manuscript. (http://www.videojug.com/film/what-to-send-to-publishers-and-agents)

It's mostly pretty decent advice, but it has some oddities.

First, I wouldn't put on the copyright symbol and a copyright date. You aren't planning on registering copyright, are you? Is there some particular reason you want the publisher or agent to think you're an amateur?

Second, about putting on your agent's address when submitting your book to publishers: If you have an agent why in the world are you submitting the manuscript?

I'd also say:

a) check the publisher's or agency's guidelines. If those guidelines contradict the video (or anyone else's format/advice, even mine), follow the guidelines instead.

b) Make sure you have the editor's or agent's name spelled correctly, and that the person you're submitting your book to still works at that publisher or agency.

[jbryson]

a) check the publisher's or agency's guidelines. If those guidelines contradict the video (or anyone else's format/advice, even mine), follow the guidelines instead.

b) Make sure you have the editor's or agent's name spelled correctly, and that the person you're submitting your book to still works at that publisher or agency.

...And make sure the MS pages are in the correct order.

[CBumpkin]

Jim,

I was just reading about this topic in Miss Snark's archives (http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2005_07_31_archive.html). Would you agree that her request is pretty standard or more specific to what she would like to see?

Herewith the recipe for presentation:

First, a 10 x 13 catalog envelope.
This is the envelope you mail everything in.

Inside it goes, in this order:
cover letter
five pages of writing sample
#10 Stamped self addressed envelope with ONE first class stamp.
These items are paper clipped together if attached at all.
NO staples, tape, brackets, chewing gum or magic spells.

You put all this in FLAT.

This way, it comes to Miss Snark's tidy desk and she can open it without cutting the paper in half (it's happened), without trying to stuff a polite letter into an envelope that was folded over so many times it has more wrinkles than a soap opera plot line, and most important, it can behave itself in the stack of incoming mail.

Is this going to get you a better, closer read?
No.

Is this going to keep Miss Snark from saying no if it sux?
No

Is Miss Snark going to measure your envelope and discard those that don't meet her specificiations?
No.

So..why bother?
Cause you're a professional.
And you take pride in your work.
And you like things to look like you care.
The diligence you bring to your everyday tasks (not that communicating with Miss Snark should ever be considered mundane) carries over to your writing.
Do it well.
It's good Snarkarma.

[CBumpkin]

I'm enjoying the thread personally. I'm still catching up from the archives, but I l hope it continues.

[CBumpkin]

Jim,

Since you brought up the topic of manuscripts, I have a question that I haven't seen a discussion on yet. Then again, I'm only 100 pages into this thread.

When submitting a manuscript, are there symbols the writer is supposed to use? I've been told to type a "#" to denote a blank line, etc., Is this true? If so, where is the best place to learn which symbols are expected to use? I understand the formatting requirements regarding margins, double-spacing, font size and type, but what about these symbols? Aren't manuscripts typed out as you would see them printed in a novel?

I'm sure I must have misunderstood someone, or something, somewhere.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Jim,

Since you brought up the topic of manuscripts, I have a question that I haven't seen a discussion on yet. Then again, I'm only 100 pages into this thread.

When submitting a manuscript, are there symbols the writer is supposed to use? I've been told to type a "#" to denote a blank line, etc., Is this true? If so, where is the best place to learn which symbols are expected to use? I understand the formatting requirements regarding margins, double-spacing, font size and type, but what about these symbols? Aren't manuscripts typed out as you would see them printed in a novel?

I'm sure I must have misunderstood someone, or something, somewhere.
I'm not your Genial Uncle Jim, nor do I play him on TV. However, there is an excellent link, here on AW (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26126), that will answer most of your manuscript questions. It's in the FAQ Board -- FAQ: Cathy C's Formatting Manuscripts for Submission - All your questions answered!

[CBumpkin]

I'm not your Genial Uncle Jim, nor do I play him on TV. However, there is an excellent link, here on AW (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26126), that will answer most of your manuscript questions. It's in the FAQ Board -- FAQ: Cathy C's Formatting Manuscripts for Submission - All your questions answered!

Thank you for the link, Duncan. (Which, by the way, is the name of my MC, so it's amusing that I would receive help from someone named Duncan!) Kismet? ;) Very appreciated.

[James D. Macdonald]

Jim,

I was just reading about this topic in Miss Snark's archives (http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2005_07_31_archive.html). Would you agree that her request is pretty standard or more specific to what she would like to see?

It's pretty standard, but you will see variants: Miss Snark wants five pages of sample. Another person might want ten, or thirty, pages. Yet another might ask for three chapters. Someone else might ask for a synopsis and three chapters. Check the guidelines. If no guidelines ... Miss Snark's are good general guidelines. Or the ones in that video. Or the suggestions over at the SFWA.Org site.

But, since those are her guidelines, definitely follow them rather than the advice to send three chapters if you're submitting to her. She doesn't want to see three chapters; she wants to see five pages.

========

Those marks (# for a space, for example) are proofreaders' marks (http://www.merriam-webster.com/mw/table/proofrea.htm). You can find lists of 'em all over the place.

Yes, you indicate a blank line in your manuscript with a single hashmark centered in an otherwise-blank line. Yes, you indicate italics with a single underline. You indicate boldface with a wavy underline. You indicate small caps with a double underline.

The only way your manuscript will resemble the finished, printed novel is that they will both have the same words in the same order. Visually, they will be very different.

[Ken Schneider]

Jim, weren't you left in a publishing office to read slush, which you said was great fun/ hilarious?

I'd be willing to bet that one page was enough to know if the writing had merit.

Then again, maybe some agents like to laugh a lot so they want more pages.

[jbryson]

Jim, weren't you left in a publishing office to read slush, which you said was great fun/ hilarious?

I'd be willing to bet that one page was enough to know if the writing had merit.

Then again, maybe some agents like to laugh a lot so they want more pages.

One page can tell you it's bad. It takes the whole thing to tell you it's good.

[jbryson]

I am critiquing somebody's novel. I find I need to keep Google idling in the background as I read. So admits others complain that reading her stuff is work. Part of it is that her MC is like a black box. You see him doing stuff (in these parts she does a good job of showing) without any apparent reason. Then after the dust settles, he explains (tells) his actions, which includes things he did off-page. Which is the real story.

I have told her what I have said, here. But I'm not sure I'm getting it across. I don't want to use the "R" word, but I think she needs to rewrite it, at least major parts of it. Of course, I don't want to *do* the rewrite; I know how I would do it, but, then that would be me and not her.

Any thoughts?

[allenparker]

Of course, I don't want to *do* the rewrite; I know how I would do it, but, then that would be me and not her.

Any thoughts?

Help him or her rewrite one scene so that he or she can rewrite the rest. The way to teach a person to change a tire is to have them rotate their own tires. First show them how to take off and replace one tire. Then let them do the others. When they are finished, not only can they rotate tires, they can change a flat, and check their brake linings.

[RJK]

But Allen, why would I want to put the flat tire on another wheel?:D

[James D. Macdonald]

"Rewrite" isn't a dirty word. It's a necessary step.

And this might be a book that's destined to be a trunk novel forever.

[Andreya]

WOW! I just subscribed to this thread! It's great that it's still alive!! :)

Awesome thread!! Thanks for sharing the info!! :)
/only read the first few pages or so... getting inspired already... lol)
I wish I started reading it back in 2003 when I was still actively working on my WIP! :)
/but maybe then again I didn't need the 'nudge' to just 'sit down & re-write/revise it' lol!! :)/

Gosh, revising/rewriting is harsh... I much prefer 'just writing'... but it takes revision/rewriting to actually finish things.. /sigh/
I once read something that COULD be a great novel, but the person refused to rewrite it, at the time.. Said he didn't want 'fame or fortune' anyway.. just 'had a thing to get it published by a UK publisher' - 'duh'? (I mean, why would a publisher wanna publish it if people wouldn't want to buy it or read it?)

The 'different place/cafe' idea sounds good.... :) might try it, in the future... (might get very odd blank stares in the small town I live in at the moment!! lol)
So do you actually rewrite with a red pen & extra paper in a cafe & just do the 'word input' at the computer? Or...? (I find it difficult to switch between internal 'writer' & internal 'critic/editor/rewriter/Google addict' by the PC! :))

[allenparker]

But Allen, why would I want to put the flat tire on another wheel?:D

Oh, sorry, I left out a step. The tire is only flat on one side. When you put the flat on the another spot, rotate the flat side to the top. My bad.

[RJK]

Allen, somebody out there is going to take you seriously (and offer suggestions to correct your problem).

[James D. Macdonald]

So do you actually rewrite with a red pen & extra paper in a cafe & just do the 'word input' at the computer?

Yeah, I actually do.

I mentioned them in the acknowledgments for one of my novels, and my author photo for another book was taken there.

[jbryson]

Allen, somebody out there is going to take you seriously (and offer suggestions to correct your problem).

:ROFL:

Or worse, get themselves killed.:poke:

[Andreya]

Yeah, I actually do.

I mentioned them in the acknowledgments for one of my novels, and my author photo for another book was taken there.
WOW, Thanks!! :)

What an awesome idea too!! :) /I bet you get lots of free coffee or so? :) Maybe they even help sell your books? ;)/

So I sticked to your advice for 2 days in a row & now have about 6.000 word short story (target was 5.000 but I haven't done any editing yet!) /Mind you, I haven't writtien anything much for a year, and no finished fiction for a few more years, so this is a *huge* accomplishment!! lol/ - Thank you so much for the tips on Page#1!! :)

Question is, do you print out & edit 'in format' /all, gasp, 29 pages of it??!!/ - i.e. Courier double spacing (that's how I do my writing!) or...? (save trees & mess up format?)
Am really thinking about this one, as it has stopped me from actually printing out & editing longer things before.. Any advice?

Also, do you *ALWAYS* write at the same time of day & edit at another, precisely defined time of day, or.. (as it comes)?

Andreya, who wants to learn to start *finishing* things this time... :)

Big thanks for it all so far!! :)

[HConn]

Question is, do you print out & edit 'in format' /all, gasp, 29 pages of it??!!/ - i.e. Courier double spacing (that's how I do my writing!) or...? (save trees & mess up format?)
Am really thinking about this one, as it has stopped me from actually printing out & editing longer things before.. Any advice?

I'm not James, but I always print out a manuscript to edit it in format. Even a 400+ page novel.

You catch things on paper that you'd miss on a computer screen.

[maestrowork]

You catch things on paper that you'd miss on a computer screen.

Absolutely.

Also, read it loud. You'll be surprised how much you'd catch that way.

[Andreya]

Thanks! I've already printed it out (& took it to the kitchen/bedroom/away from PC) & it *IS* much easier!!

How many times do you go through a manuscript at a time? I've heard people talk of 7 to 18 edits (for a bigger thing), do they just print out a new batch every time, or use older printed out versions for several things at once... Like maybe go through 1st draft 3 times, or figure out ALL things (left vague/off in 1st draft), then enter new stuff & print that out & go over it...?

Sorry if this is such a silly question, I've been wondering about it... :)

Also am at a loss at what to do next, lol. I was supposed to write nonfiction & ended up writing a short story, now I wanna write more chick-lit mystery short stories, but no idea where - or if - I could sell them! :) lol Want to finish a few short things first before I tackle the novel-in-the-trunk (in a bunch of binders & Word files actually). (Or start writing a new one...) 'baby steps'... :)

How do you published guys actually decide what you will be working on, & in what order? & how much time daily do you reserve for editing? If you write 2,500 words/2 hours a day, do you edit 2,500 words/2 hours a day too? /still trying to figure out a basic 'rhythm'!/

...Trying to read this thread from the beginning, but it's a lot of pages with good info to go through!! (A summary with links to 'chapters', or at least a pointer to stuff on editing/revising would be most helpful! :))
/getting distracted by the shiny freelance markets doesn't help! lol/

[James D. Macdonald]

WOW, Thanks!! :)

What an awesome idea too!! :) /I bet you get lots of free coffee or so? :) Maybe they even help sell your books? ;)/



Nope, I pay for every cup. They're letting me take up a table -- I ought to pay them for it. (And their pastries are wonderful, too. Le Rendezvous, Main Street, Colebrook, NH. Closed Sundays and Mondays.)

They don't sell my books -- they're not a bookstore.


So I sticked to your advice for 2 days in a row & now have about 6.000 word short story (target was 5.000 but I haven't done any editing yet!) /Mind you, I haven't writtien anything much for a year, and no finished fiction for a few more years, so this is a *huge* accomplishment!! lol/ - Thank you so much for the tips on Page#1!! :)

Go, you! Now revise and rewrite until it shines.

Question is, do you print out & edit 'in format' /all, gasp, 29 pages of it??!!/ - i.e. Courier double spacing (that's how I do my writing!) or...? (save trees & mess up format?)
Am really thinking about this one, as it has stopped me from actually printing out & editing longer things before.. Any advice?

The reason you want to use standard manuscript format is because it leaves lots of room for making changes in pencil. Double space Courier 10 with one-inch margins. Really. Red pencil. And take along a pencil sharpener and an eraser.

Also, do you *ALWAYS* write at the same time of day & edit at another, precisely defined time of day, or.. (as it comes)?

Nope. Different times. But use what's good for you.

Andreya, who wants to learn to start *finishing* things this time... :)

Big thanks for it all so far!! :)

Nothing teaches you how to write better than actually writing. And the only way to learn to finish is ... finish.

[James D. Macdonald]

Thanks! I've already printed it out (& took it to the kitchen/bedroom/away from PC) & it *IS* much easier!!

Toldja so!



How many times do you go through a manuscript at a time? I've heard people talk of 7 to 18 edits (for a bigger thing), do they just print out a new batch every time, or use older printed out versions for several things at once... Like maybe go through 1st draft 3 times, or figure out ALL things (left vague/off in 1st draft), then enter new stuff & print that out & go over it...?

It varies. Mess with it until it seems good. Enter the changes. Then print it out again (if there were big changes) or continue with your paper copy until it gets too messy to use (if that works for you).


Sorry if this is such a silly question, I've been wondering about it... :)

There's no right answer. There's what's right for you, and you only find that out by trying various ways until you find one that clicks.


Also am at a loss at what to do next, lol. I was supposed to write nonfiction & ended up writing a short story, now I wanna write more chick-lit mystery short stories, but no idea where - or if - I could sell them! :) lol Want to finish a few short things first before I tackle the novel-in-the-trunk (in a bunch of binders & Word files actually). (Or start writing a new one...) 'baby steps'... :)

Take your story and, when it's totally the best you can make it, send it out (to paying markets only) until Hell won't have it. Never let it sleep over. If it comes back, put it in the mail that same day to the next place on your list.

Where to submit? Where do you read?

Or, go over to duotrope (http://www.duotrope.com/) and do a search for markets.


How do you published guys actually decide what you will be working on, & in what order? & how much time daily do you reserve for editing? If you write 2,500 words/2 hours a day, do you edit 2,500 words/2 hours a day too? /still trying to figure out a basic 'rhythm'!/


Again, no real answer. What works for you is what's best for you.

...Trying to read this thread from the beginning, but it's a lot of pages with good info to go through!! (A summary with links to 'chapters', or at least a pointer to stuff on editing/revising would be most helpful! :))
/getting distracted by the shiny freelance markets doesn't help! lol/

There is just such an index here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8754).

[James D. Macdonald]

It is with great joy that I report that my elder daughter has sold her first novel, a paranormal romance, to Tor (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=718056&postcount=3).

She submitted it unagented, and under a pseudonym (so no one would know it was her).

The book, Salt and Silver, by "Anna Katherine" will be coming out next year sometime.

[Perle_Rare]

Wow! Good for her! :)

[Sailor Kenshin]

It is with great joy that I report that my elder daughter has sold her first novel, a paranormal romance, to Tor (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=718056&postcount=3).

She submitted it unagented, and under a pseudonym (so no one would know it was her).

The book, Salt and Silver, by "Anna Katherine" will be coming out next year sometime.


Congrats to her!

[MoonWriter]

Awesome news. I'm very happy for you both.

[CBumpkin]

It is with great joy that I report that my elder daughter has sold her first novel, a paranormal romance, to Tor (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=718056&postcount=3).

She submitted it unagented, and under a pseudonym (so no one would know it was her).

The book, Salt and Silver, by "Anna Katherine" will be coming out next year sometime.

Runs in the family, I see! Congratulations Jim! You must be busting your buttons proud!

[HConn]

It is with great joy that I report that my elder daughter has sold her first novel, a paranormal romance, to Tor (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=718056&postcount=3).

She submitted it unagented, and under a pseudonym (so no one would know it was her).

The book, Salt and Silver, by "Anna Katherine" will be coming out next year sometime.


Congratulations to her!

[callalily61]

Congratulations to her--and to her proud papa!

[RJK]

Congratulations - I guess there's a literary gene, or is it nurture?

[bpmann]

Well, she read this thread, of course! :tongue Congrats, Jim.

[James D. Macdonald]

So, has everyone written at least 250 words of original fiction today?

[Ken Schneider]

So, has everyone written at least 250 words of original fiction today?

X4
Ken

[James D. Macdonald]

X4
Ken

Go, you!

[Dawno]

It is with great joy that I report that my elder daughter has sold her first novel, a paranormal romance, to Tor (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=718056&postcount=3).

She submitted it unagented, and under a pseudonym (so no one would know it was her).

The book, Salt and Silver, by "Anna Katherine" will be coming out next year sometime.

Congratulations to "Anna Katherine"! And, as you mentioned the index above, I want to apologize that I haven't updated it in a while, but I will try to do so soon - maybe this weekend. I'm always thrilled that it gets used and is helpful, it was one of my first contributions to AW three years ago or so.

[Shweta]

So, has everyone written at least 250 words of original fiction today?
Yessir. Been doing 500+/day except when my brain goes "No. Today is poetry day" or whatever. Then it's fewer words, cause poetry's slower.


ETA: And that's awesome about your daughter! Congratulations to her :)

[pictopedia]

Me too, Sheta. Have written a short story-ish poem with 500 words and realised that alternating between poem and novel writing helps to break me lose from either being too wordy or not wordy enough.

Here is a question regarding the "death spiral": So now that Amazon is pushing the Kindle, and we are getting a new market where books are sold on demand, what does that mean for the writer? Has anybody made any experiences in regards to changed contracts, new conditions?

I would assume that the emergence of the eBook is favourable for the writer, since the publisher practically has no costs in getting the book out there. Are publishers loosing ground? Agents could have books layouted independently and sell directly to Amazon. Interesting shifts of power could take place.

(BTW: I've ordered a kindle and will test the reading experience)

[James D. Macdonald]

Right now e-books are a small but interesting part of the market. Where they go in the future we'll see ... but I don't expect paper books to vanish. They're a climax technology.

I don't think that "We'll cut out the publishers!" is going to go anywhere. There's far more to publication than printing, and if publishers aren't doing those tasks someone else is going to have to do them.

[HConn]

So, has everyone written at least 250 words of original fiction today?

Nope, and not yesterday, either. I realized that I have less time to finish my book than I realized, and I'm pushing pushing pushing to meet my deadline.

Eeep!

[Duncan J Macdonald]

It is with great joy that I report that my elder daughter has sold her first novel, a paranormal romance, to Tor (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=718056&postcount=3).

She submitted it unagented, and under a pseudonym (so no one would know it was her).

The book, Salt and Silver, by "Anna Katherine" will be coming out next year sometime.
Curses! And my fiendish plot to force her to sign over the deed to the book so I could sell it to PA comes to naught!

-- Vincent DuMal
Gentleman Adventurer
Evil Deeds on Consignment



So, this would be another of those first-time authors grabbed off the slushpile that never happens, right?

[Chrisla]

So, has everyone written at least 250 words of original fiction today?

I only wish!

I know that your rule is to write new fiction each day; that revision and plotting don't count, but I just can't do it all! I'm currently:
a. Trying to find a good starting point for the book I'm revising (and making numerous false starts), although I am progressing with revision of other chapters;
b. Tracking down all my "learning materials": The Miller's Tale, The Trojan Women, Red Harvest, Last Man Standing, Chicago Manual of Style, Modern English Usage. . .
c. Doing some of those exercises (e.g., watching A Fist Full of Dollars while I work out, and trying to read The Miller's Tale--tough reading);
d. Continuing to work my way through the "Uncle Jim" thread;
e. Thinking about the mystery I'm outlining and trying to make a smooth, believable connection between two crucial elements;
f. Working my way--slowly--through Noah Lukeman's The First Five Pages, A Writer's Guide to Staying Out of the Rejection File. This is the best learning volume I've found anywhere, if you do the exercises.

As a new writer, the learning process takes much of my time. I'm concentrating on revision of the first book and outlining of the second, using what I'm learning, before I start something else. Otherwise, I fear I will never finish any of it.

Am I doomed to failure?

[James D. Macdonald]

So, this would be another of those first-time authors grabbed off the slushpile that never happens, right?

That's about the size of it.



Am I doomed to failure?

No, not doomed. But don't let your fiction muscles get flabby, either.

[Andreya]

WOW!! Congratulations to your daughter!!!! :)

The book sounds intriguing!! :)

Thank you so much for the tips & the index!!

Have already researched some markets in the short story forum & on Duotrope... (I mainly read novels, so.. :))

Truth be told, done too much researching (on markets & for the short story written, & some RL interfered, so I haven't actually written much - just two more beginnings, lol!! :)) - wasn't sure what I could write so it could be sold, lol!! :)
I might be tempted - or 'guiltied' into writing some more now!! lol

Good luck with writing everyone!! :)

[allenparker]

It is with great joy that I report that my elder daughter has sold her first novel, a paranormal romance, to Tor (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=718056&postcount=3).

She submitted it unagented, and under a pseudonym (so no one would know it was her).

The book, Salt and Silver, by "Anna Katherine" will be coming out next year sometime.


The part I don't get is the unagented and pseudonym. I have been thinking of changing my name to James D. MacDonald, Jr and living in Jim's agent's front bedroom.

I know, doing it by yourself and no help from Mom and Pop. I get it.


So, can I have her help?

I won't use much. Just enough to get an agent and to sell about a million books. Then she can have them back.

Oh, and can I have your son's help as well? No. That was too greedy. Just half of his help, then?

[James D. Macdonald]

Today I'm going to recco Editorial Anonymous' post on rejection letters (http://editorialanonymous.blogspot.com/2007/04/rules-of-receiving-rejection-letter.html). It has eight rules, but boils down to this: Unless the rejection letter contains specific, constructive, criticism it doesn't mean anything. I'm going to add a bit to that, to say that unless it also contains the word "resubmit" even that specific constructive criticism doesn't mean a heck of a lot.

But that's not what I'm going to talk about today. Today I'm going to comment on one of the comments to that post, put up by "anonymous" on 12 July 2008:

If they are not interested in seeing manuscripts, why are they editors or literary agents in the first place? And who said these people are any smarter than the writers?

If agents and editors were so talented they'd be in the same shoes as the authors.

Sick of the condescending attitude.

My very dear friend: They are interested in seeing manuscripts. That's why they're editors or agents; that's why they publish their names and addresses with the words "Send manuscripts to..." It's just that they've seen all of your manuscript that they care to, and want to see a different manuscript now.

No one said that they're any smarter than writers. What they're getting paid to do is find publishable books. Presumably they're doing it well enough so the publisher stays in business. They're talented, but not talented in the same way writers are.

Condescending attitude? Nope. No attitude. They certainly don't have an attitude about you. That rejection slip was preprinted, long before they'd heard your name. All that they've said is that this particular manuscript isn't one they want to buy/represent right now.

Move on to the next market, just like they've moved on to the next manuscript. It isn't personal.

[FOTSGreg]

Mr. MacDonald,

First, I'd like to say "Thank you". I've been reading this thread almost since you started it (I've actually been a member here since 2007, but only recently figured out what I was doing wrong that was preventing me from posting until today). Your insight into the craft and commentary on various aspects of the craft have been truly, truly helpful in ways I cannot even begin to describe.

I'm basically restarting on a writing career I left about 20 years ago (up to that time I was writing mainly in the technical and journalism fields (fire test & pharmaceutical reports & newspaper reporting & column writing so I've had a lot to unlearn). My efforts through most of the intervening time were focused on game writing so I at least kept my hand in one area. Since restarting I've had 2 stories published over at Bewildering Stories (about a year apart each) and have procrastinated on sending in other projects to other markets (though I have accrued about 21 rejections so far, most of them this year).

I admit I've had to learn how to take rejections and use them to keep me submitting and, more importantly, working (the Critters workshop worked for awhile, but I'm also a member of the Analog Writer's Group and that group's probably the best I've ever been in). More and more the rejections I've been receiving have also been invitations to submit to that venue in the future.

Anyway, thanks again. Please keep up the good work and the inspiration to all us "wannabes" out here.

PS. Got through 1200 words of original work today (I don't feel like I've worked hard enough or at all unless I get at least a grand worth of words on the screen every day).

[James D. Macdonald]

Welcome, FOTSGreg!

Would you be good enough to tell us what it was that kept you from posting, in case some other hapless lurker is in the same predicament?

I look forward to hearing of your future success!

Meanwhile, it's time to dip into Uncle Jim's Mailbag. Answering the questions that you never thought to ask!

Dear Uncle Jim:

I keep hearing the term "Big Name Author." I think it's supposed to be a good thing. Can you tell me what a Big Name Author is?

Signed,
Wondering in Fresno

Dear Wondering:

I'm glad you asked that question. As you know, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. "Big Name Author" is the technical term for an author whose name, on his book jacket, is in larger type than the book's title.

For example:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AOg%2B7SUEL._SL160_AA115_.jpg

Cordially,
Uncle Jim

Dear Uncle Jim:

Thank you for your answer! I have another question. What's the easiest way to become a Big Name Author?

Signed,
Still in Fresno and Still Wondering


Dear Still:

The only stupid question is one you don't ask, but that one sure came close. The easiest way to become a Big Name Author is to have a last name that's five letters or less long.

Cordially,
Uncle Jim

[Judg]

Dear Still:

The only stupid question is one you don't ask, but that one sure came close. The easiest way to become a Big Name Author is to have a last name that's five letters or less long.

Cordially,
Uncle Jim
LOL! Yet another reason to write under my maiden name!

Seriously, it had occurred to me that it would fit so much nicer on a book cover...

[Scribhneoir]

The easiest way to become a Big Name Author is to have a last name that's five letters or less long.


Oh dear. My last name is seven letters long. :cry: I'm doomed.

[FOTSGreg]

Jim (Can I call you Jim?) & anyone who might be one of the Powers That Be - the problem with my registration appears to have been that I originally registered with an AOL email address. I changed that to another address after waiting and waiting for a confirmation. Same thing happened there, ie nothing. I could not sign in using my screen name or password at the main entry point. Today, I noticed while reading a thread that there was another sign-in point and, not having tried to sign in in quite a while, I tried signing in from inside a thread.

And here I am.

It sounds kinda' silly, I know, but I gave up even trying to sign in after awhile.

To get back on topic a bit - One of the things an Editor Who Shall Not Be Named with whom I have had discussions on and off the forum site for the outfit he works for has told me is that, in his opinion, my writing lacks "emotional depth" in the characters and characterizations and that it will be "years" before I am writing at anything near a professional level (again, in his opinion). I went to the mats with him and attempted to soothe what I thought were ruffled feathers between us, even going so far as to participate in a line edit of a piece he really liked (I got a fragmentary portion of the real work). When I was finished the Editor Who Shall Not Be Named stated that I had destroyed the emotional content of the original work (something I strongly disagreed with as I made every attempt to not do that and I have edited other people's work before in an amateur fashion; however, the participation did give me a keen insight, I think, as to what this particular person likes in work for the magazine he works for and his taste and my own are diametrically opposed).

I have found that my writing can be somewhat dry, something I'm trying to unlearn from my old tech writing days, but I have had one other editor tell me I had written a good story, but that the characters "lacked emotional appeal". That one really kinda' got me - I mean, good story, but lacking in emotional appeal? What the heck does that mean?

Regardless, I'm working on it, but could you, Mr. MacDonald (I feel awkward calling you Jim just yet), please comment on emotional appeal and emotional characterization in fiction?

[Bayou Bill]

Oh dear. My last name is seven letters long. :cry: I'm doomed.
Yep, you and old Charlie Dickens are SOL. And that Hemingway dude might as well go back to newspaper work. :)

Bayou Bill :cool:

[James D. Macdonald]

Jim (Can I call you Jim?)

Sure.


Regardless, I'm working on it, but could you, Mr. MacDonald (I feel awkward calling you Jim just yet), please comment on emotional appeal and emotional characterization in fiction?

Okay.

Are your characters likable? Do they have things that they want?

And ... are there little bits of stage business that they can do to reveal what they're thinking and how they're feeling?

Definitely a place to show rather than tell.

Did the editor who shall not be named mention any favorite books where the characters had particular emotional appeal?

[FOTSGreg]

Are your characters likable? Do they have things that they want?

Well, I think they're likable, though that's not always true (the main character in the book I'm working on the 5th draft of starts off as a really cold fish who's not really likable right away (exactly the way I intended him). I almost never give the characters everything they want and always try to have them motivated to perform some action even if they don't realize what that motive truly is.

And ... are there little bits of stage business that they can do to reveal what they're thinking and how they're feeling?

Yes, I think. I try to have them actually doing something when they're talking, for example, so it's not just straight dialogue. They fidget, play with a coffee cup, sick their hands in their pockets, run their fingers through their hair, etc. In the book, at one point, I have the character privately expose some of his frustration by shoving a stack of books and papers off a lab bench (realizing what he's done he then proceeds to pick everything back up off the floor). This was done in private, however, after a particularly intense scene in which a friend of his has been severely injured. He doesn't explode until his friend has awakened in the hospital, but he holds himself partly responsible (even though it clearly wasn't his fault at all and the event was unforseeable). The characters, no matter how minor, are almost always doing something that would work out to little bits of stage play.

Did the editor who shall not be named mention any favorite books where the characters had particular emotional appeal?

Unfortunately, no. He referenced a story he was particularly proud of which, to me, consisted of basically the same type of story he tried to demonstrate line level editing to me with (fantasy tale, female characters, lots of emotional "tear jerking", but not much plot or action that I could see).

We have, BTW, agreed to agree to disagree, but he still takes shots at me every chance he gets (I'm not sure if I should be annoyed or amused by by the fact he seems to take pains to take those shots - in one sense I really am amused and I hope he's doing this because he truly does see some kind of promise in my writing).

My disagreement with this editor isn't, to my mind, as serious as I might make it sound. I certainly don't dwell on it though it is one of those niggling little things that everyone's got in the backs of their minds. He pointed out what he saw as a fault in my writing and I'm sure that's an area where I could improve.

BTW, I'm sure you've gone over this in this thread before. If you could just point me to the index (I forgot how to find it) or to the post # I won't trouble you any more with my annoying little worries.

[FOTSGreg]

Duh...never mind about the Index. I found it.

[Perle_Rare]

...the main character in the book I'm working on the 5th draft of starts off as a really cold fish who's not really likable right away (exactly the way I intended him).

I don't mind a cold fish. My question would be: Will I feel invested in him as a reader? Is it worth it for me to spend valuable time following his adventures?


I try to have them actually doing something when they're talking, for example, so it's not just straight dialogue. They fidget, play with a coffee cup, sick their hands in their pockets, run their fingers through their hair, etc.


That's a good first step. But I would try to push it a bit further as fidgeting can get old very quickly. As a reader, I prefer when conversations overlay common, useful actions so I can see a slice of life. No need to fidget or "run their fingers through their hair" (which is severely overused). Just give me a hint of what they're really doing while talking.

I know I don't necessarily stop what I'm doing when my family engages me in conversation. If I did, nothing would ever get done since my son can't seem to ever stop talking! ;-)

Just my 2 cents.

Oh, and you might consider posting your first scene / chapter to Share Your Work (SYW, password vista) in order to get other opinions.

[Judg]

A cold fish can be made attractive (Mr. Darcy, anyone) but it would be good to make sure some of that attractiveness shows from the beginning. I've put more than one book - or movie - aside because I really didn't care what happened to the jerk.

[FOTSGreg]

In regards to the "cold fish", well, let's just say that the situation he finds himself in, and that the reader does, is interesting enough to keep the Analog Writer's Group interested and asking for more.

I'm hesitant about posting anything these days as discussions on other forums seem to have come to the opinion that this could amount to being published in some publisher's and editor's eyes.

In regards to "fidgeting", I understand what you mean and I do try to avoid that. Here's a pertinent section from my book where two characters are talking to one another in a lab setting and one is trying to explain something to another (I don't think that small excerpts like this can be, in any stretch, considered "publishing" of a WIP - please pardon me if placing the example here isn't appropriate),
-----
“Well, it’s a tough call. Photosynthesis is a complex process that works in two different ways, called the light and the dark cycles, respectively.”

“It’s been a long time since I took basic biology, and even then I didn’t concentrate on plant physiology,” Jason said. “But I know the basics. It’s the details of this process they proposed that I don’t get. That’s what you’re here for.”

“Right. Okay, let’s work through the process and see where they might have rearranged things some. In the classic example a six-carbon sugar and six oxygen molecules are manufactured by the plant from CO2 and oxygen. Photosynthesis is a two-step process. The first stage is the light-dependent reaction. The second is the light-independent, or dark, reaction and it’s only called that because it does not require light to function.”

“Right, I got that,” Jason said. He felt the flare of anger in his stomach again.

“The light reaction occurs in the grana of a plant cell,” McIntyre said. He took a dry erase pen and stepped over to a whiteboard to begin drawing. “The grana is a stack of thylakoid membranes inside the cell. The thylakoid is the structural unit of photosynthesis. If they did anything to interfere with photosynthesis, it would likely take place there. Think of the grana as a stack of pancakes. Each individual pancake is a thylakoid.”

“Pancakes. That reminds me, I didn’t have breakfast today and I haven’t had lunch either,” Jason said.

“Pay attention,” Randy said. “This is important.” He drew a stack of circles on the board. “The areas between the stacks, the grana, are called the stroma. In the light reaction, light excites electrons in the chlorophyll, raising their energy states. An electron transport cascade then uses the energy from this reaction to synthesize adenotriphosphate, ATP, or nicotinamide adenotriphosphate, or NADP. Water is split in the process.”

“So, there’s our hydrogen, right?”
-----
This scene takes place in Chapter 21 and is about 1/3rd of the way into the book, but is placed here to demonstrate what I mean when I'm trying to have my characters perform some type of action during dialogue (in this case, it's also important to the scene).

BTW, you can call me Greg. The FOTS portion of my nym is short for Fire On The Suns, a space opera wargame played via email which I've been running for about 15 years.

[thethinker42]

The easiest way to become a Big Name Author is to have a last name that's five letters or less long.

WOOHOO!!! My first and last name are each 4 letters...I am SO going to be a Big Name Author.
:hooray::hooray::hooray::hooray:

Guess that explains how Ann Rice got anywhere...

[James D. Macdonald]

“The light reaction occurs in the grana of a plant cell,” McIntyre said.

Woo! Greg, that's a heck of an infodump (in As-you-know-Bob format).

I sure hope there's some reason the readers care passionately about photosynthesis by that point.

He felt the flare of anger in his stomach again.

That's telling, not showing.

[FennelGiraffe]

Aside from the infodump aspect, yes, the action you have included is meaningful, not just random fidgets.

However, when you include action, you can omit the 'said' tag. Instead of:

“The light reaction occurs in the grana of a plant cell,” McIntyre said. He took a dry erase pen and ...
Try,
“The light reaction occurs in the grana of a plant cell.” McIntyre took a dry erase pen and ...Also, are 'Randy' and 'McIntyre' the same person or two different people?

[FOTSGreg]

Fennel, Yes, McIntyre and Randy are the same purpose (it's laid out in the paragraph or so prior to where this one starts. Good points about the "said" and other identifiers. I can fix that in the next draft.

Jim, Yes, I agree it's an info-dump, but it is important to the story and a story point which has occurred earlier. It's also much less than it used to be (a reader of an earlier version of the book stated "this isn't a story, it's a lecture" which made me go back and cut, cut, cut).

I'm not sure if I can fix the "telling, not showing" bit at this point since the POV is solely from Jason's viewpoint and I don't think it's severe enough that he'd show it outwardly in any fashion, especially when speaking to someone who's ostensibly his employee. It might be possible to show something in his voice or remove the reference entirely, but I'll have to think about that one a little bit.

[FOTSGreg]

Thinking about what I just said, maybe I should explain a bit about what has set up this scene although explaining it also feels like it's still not fine-tuned enough (admittedly, there's a lot of buildup to this particular scene that you will not have seen)...

The main character (Jason) has, a couple of days before, met with a person who has explained that she is an agent working for a secret group that created a plant that essentially grew hydrogen and stored it internally. Jason is attempting to discover how this was done and why it resulted in what he sees as a potentially catastrophic shift in a particular part of the global ecology (specifically the re-emergence of prehistorically giant insects). In order to do that he has to get into the nitty-gritty science of what they did. He's also dealing with the emotional impact of losing his family, his girlfriend, and his college mentor to attacks by giant insects (not the size of the creatures in the movie Them, but still much larger than normal), being thrust into the lead position of a crash program to figure out what's happening, and fighting with a number of experts who are jealous of his position or are testing him. He's under a tremendous amount of pressure, but he's barely showing any emotion at all at this point (this is 33,500 words into an 80 thousand page work (with probably another 5-10 thousand words to be added filling in continuity and character holes before the end of this draft).

I'm not trying to excuse any of this BTW, just trying to place the reader at this particular point and scene without revealing the whole darned thing. I know it still needs work (at least 1 more complete draft).

[James D. Macdonald]

"Good dancers practice the things they are good at; great dancers practice the things they are bad at."

--Twyla Tharp

Greg, do you recall The Princess Bride? Do you recall Inigo Montoya? "Let me explain. No, there is too much; let me sum up."

The summary you gave in the last message is probably about the right length.

Unless we're expecting our readers to pass a quiz at the end of the chapter, it's still too much. Don't explain; show what happens. Particularly show what happens when things go wrong.

For the next half-hour Randy explained photosynthesis, the process by which green plants turn sunlight and water into sugar, while Jason alternately regretted his missed breakfast and contemplated strangling the older man.

"So it's theoretically possible to get hydrogen instead of oxygen as a byproduct when the water molecule breaks up?"

"Theoretically? No? I can't imagine a mechanism. Anyone who managed that would be first in line for a Nobel Prize."

"I'll get on the phone to Oslo later. Right now we have bigger problems."



But (since I haven't read the preceding 33,500 words) I could be completely wrong.

[FOTSGreg]

Jim, No I think you're completely right. That particular section got added into the book after a long and thoughtful discussion about the process with some people over at Analog (I got so into the details I even diagrammed out the process so I would be clear on it when trying to write about it - a clear case of being too close to the problem). I won;t borrow your example word for word, but I'm definitely copying & pasting it for future reference.

BTW, The Princess Bride is one of my favorite movies and Inigo Montoya one of my favorite movie characters (love the swordfight at the top of the cliff - that has to be one of the classic movie swordfights of all time).

Oh, and that scene ends much as your suggestion does

“Because the whatsit that transferred to insects appears to be easily transferable, possibly communicable between species. That means it’s going to spread, species to species, from wherever the stuff gets loose. Caliope was one of their field test sites. I’m betting it wasn’t the only one. It means something else too.”
“What’s the something else?”
“It means that Amy lied to me,” Jason said. He was afraid the burning anger in his stomach was only the start of something much more serious.


Though it's still largely telling in that last sentence especially.

[James D. Macdonald]

Don't get me wrong: It's entirely necessary that you as the author be an expert. You have to know how things really work, and your characters have to know how they really work. If you aren't intimately familiar with the real deal, the readers will know that you're BSing them.

It's an iceberg. Nine tenths of your research never gets into the final draft.

Up above in this massive thread somewhere, I mentioned that for one of my books I'd learned enough about Gangland Chicago that I knew what brand of cigarettes Bugs Moran smoked. I never mentioned it in the text because it didn't move the story along. But when I could picture Bugs smoking Clown brand cigarettes, my descriptions of him, the way I imagined him acting, were (I think) surer, and (I think) the readers recognized that. (Oh -- and in case any of you were wondering, Al Capone's family called him "Snorky." That wasn't in the book either.)

[Willowmound]

I'll get on the phone to Oslo later.



Oops, wrong city. That's only for the Peace Prize.

(Hello. I lurk.)

[James D. Macdonald]

Oops, wrong city. That's only for the Peace Prize.

That's second-draft. When you're writing fast, you don't stop to check. (In first draft I might even type "I'll get on the phone to [city] later."

[RJK]

I should remember to do that when I can't think of the right person, place, or thing. Of course my first draft would be a forest of brackets.

[Willowmound]

That's second-draft. When you're writing fast, you don't stop to check. (In first draft I might even type "I'll get on the phone to [city] later."

You mean you publish first draft posts here? I'm shocked. I spend hours on mine.

:D

[IdiotsRUs]

That's second-draft. When you're writing fast, you don't stop to check. (In first draft I might even type "I'll get on the phone to [city] later."

I do that all the time only like XXXinsert pub name hereXXX so I can just use find on XXX to get tham all in one sitting when I revise. Also does for those other little notes to myself such as XXX FFS! show don't tell! XXX or the one that escaped the revision, made it to a beta and gave them a giggle : XXX FOR THE GODS SAKES WOMAN THIS IS THE CHEESIEST THING SINCE THE EXPLOSION IN THE BLOODY CHEDDAR FACTORY. GET A GRIP! XXX

[FennelGiraffe]

Fennel, Yes, McIntyre and Randy are the same purpose (it's laid out in the paragraph or so prior to where this one starts.

Then pick one name and stick to it. (In narrative, that is.)

[HConn]

I use those brackets everywhere, too.

[FOTSGreg]

I dunno', Fennel. That section is shortly after the character is introduced so it felt correct to use the two names interchangeably. I'll take a look at it again, but remember that you haven;t seen the whole section so can only judge by this short section. I don't think it's really all that confusing if one starts at the beginning.

But, like I said, I'll take another look at it.

Just as an aside, the book is rather steeped in the science, but I've been steadily working through fixing the info-dumps so they work better to bind the entire story together and do not take away from the story as much as they used to. My science consultants (both Cal professors so rather biased) and the grad student readers (Cal entomology students so also rather biased) I also talked with liked it. They all saw the work in first draft though and haven't seen any of this draft (yet - my main science consultant is now an assistant prof back at Oswego in NY so it's been awhile).

[Melenka]

My bracket strategy can engulf entire sections of a chapter:

[Find out how to clone cell phones and somehow make that natural AND interesting. Insert here.] -or- [Ask husband best way to break wrist. Ask nurse next door how long bruises take to heal]

or my favorite - [not right - rewrite para later]

Good to know I'm not alone.

[James D. Macdonald]

My favorite is [Doyle writes this part].

[RJK]

It must be great to have a partner who can step right in and pick up where your thoughts leave off.

On the other hand, It must have taken a great deal of work to get yourselves to that level of cooperation.

[ccarver30]

My first and last names are both 6 letters. I am doomed!

[chronomodra]

Oh my eyes, how they bleed.

Being the kind of person who refuses to ever skip ahead in any media, I couldn't comment until I read the entire thread, uncut, from start to finish. I don't know when I started, but it had to be months ago.

Mad props go to Uncle Jim and all the other contributors to this thread. The amount of insight gathered in this bastion of knowledge knows no equal. Though I wasn't able to do all the exercises (due to time constraints, broken links, or the fact that certain deadlines had passed), I learned a lot from those I did. Except the whole Celtic knot thing, I still don't fully get that one. I found it encouraging that I had already done a few of them before reading this thread (such as listening to the director's commentary on DVDs, particularly on deleted scenes.)

Personally, I'm an aspiring author who, after writing a few short novels and tucking them away, decided to finally pursue publication... without studying the market first. I wrote the dream novel I always wanted to write, based on the style of all my favorite fantasy authors. Unfortunately, my favorite authors tended to write books exceeding 200k words. My tome was not as sought-after by agents as I'd hoped, due to me being a first time author with a 209k-word monster. After a year of revisions and the trimming of over 50,000 words, I've started sending it out again, and hope to finally find a home for my baby.

Starting this weekend, I'll be BIC-ing on my next novel (which won't be a sequel to the first, despite the temptation.) Can't wait.

Since it's customary for posting newbies to present some sort of question for the master, allow me to ask one on behalf of my friend.

Yes, this is actually for my friend, and not just some hypothetical question ploy, like a teenager asking his parents, "So I have this friend, who likes this girl, and was wondering..."

Anyway, he got a rejection back from an agent saying that he couldn't "connect" with the main character in the first five pages. I tried to give him what advice I could, of course. But what are your suggestions for making a sympathetic character that readers can quickly attach to and feel concerned for?

[cloakndagger]

What priceless information. It has taken me a couple of months to go through everything here, but I've come through on the other side at last, have applied much of what I learned, and now have a very workable and exciting (to me anyway) outline for my historical fantasy. Not only that, I regained a lot of lost confidence, simply by reading everyone's responses, thoughts, feelings expressed, etc. I am not alone (even if no one here knows me). I was published in mystery, but with a complete change in direction to historical fantasy and a long break from writing due to certain situations, I'm pretty much a newbie again.

I am very happy to have found a place where I can lurk, learn, and maybe even get involved with others.

Yay!

[Moonfish]

WOOHOO!!! My first and last name are each 4 letters...I am SO going to be a Big Name Author.
:hooray::hooray::hooray::hooray:

Guess that explains how Ann Rice got anywhere...


No hope for me then - my last name is 14 letters long...

[James D. Macdonald]

Anyway, he got a rejection back from an agent saying that he couldn't "connect" with the main character in the first five pages. I tried to give him what advice I could, of course. But what are your suggestions for making a sympathetic character that readers can quickly attach to and feel concerned for?

The character doesn't need to be sympathetic, or even likable. What he/she has to be is interesting. The reader must care what happens next.

A person in a place with a problem. That's the basic opening. In its expanded form, its an interesting person in an interesting place with an interesting problem.

[FOTSGreg]

Howdy, again. Got another question (natch').

There's a new market opening up asking for stories placed in "secondary worlds". They don't necessarily want science fiction or fantasy, but their guidelines do state they're not interested in advanced science or spaceflight, and those guidelines would seem to indicate they're much more interested in fantasy style worlds. I've got a couple ideas, one dealing with modern day humans inadvertently opening up a dimensional doorway to another Earth and one dealing with an alternate evolutionary history for Earth (no rise of humans or possibly only minimal evolutionary advancement past Australopithecus).

My question is how would you go about approaching a secondary world wherein the characters and world did not nudge up against Tolkien or D&D or any of a hundred other fantasy worlds (mythic folklore might be one place, but there are problems there too)?

I've read West of Eden and some of Jordan's Wheel of Time, but I'm extremely interested in hearing how our resident Master goes about it and how some other writers have approached this question.

[James D. Macdonald]

Rather than writing for markets, write the book that you want to write, then find a market that's suitable for it.

[blacbird]

Rather than writing for markets, write the book that you want to write, then find a market that's suitable for it.

Aye, but that's the trick, isn't it? The market suitable for my work is located in the Andromeda Galaxy, and doesn't accept e-mails, which would take about a million years to get there, anyway.

caw

[Chris Grey]

Aye, but that's the trick, isn't it? The market suitable for my work is located in the Andromeda Galaxy, and doesn't accept e-mails, which would take about a million years to get there, anyway.

caw

Make sure to include a SASE.

[Tachyon]

Make sure to include a SASE.
The cost of the postage would be horrible.

[RJK]

FotsGreg - could you give us a link to those guidelines? I have some ideas bubbling up that may fit.

[FOTSGreg]

Beneath ceaseless Skies link,

http://www.beneath-ceaseless-skies.com/page.php?p=submissions

They're a new startup (not even a single issue published yet) so use caution. Be sure to check what rights they're asking for as well (first world serial, first world electronic, option to buy non-exclusive anthology rights, exclusive period to buy time limited exclusive audio rights for 90 days in this case).

[James D. Macdonald]

Okay, how I'd go about creating a secondary world:

I'd take one thing in our world and change it. Say ... suppose Lord Franklin actually found the Northwest Passage in 1847.

What would that imply about the world's climate systems? Okay, make those changes to the world.

Now, how would those climate changes affect the British Empire? Got it.

Now, fast forward a bit. The British Empire (as modified), is entering WWII. What changes does the existence of a usable Northwest Passage imply?

Now find some character who is living in this world. Give him/her a problem.

Write that story.

See how easy it is?

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I have posted my story on SYW and I have gotten comments that nothing is happening, therefore, why should I keep reading. I don't know how else to ask this, but, isn't it normal to start off with a calm start to a story instead of a heart pounding action packed story? This is only the first page of the story. If you could take a look at this and maybe give me a couple hints to help define "this is a boring start" I would appreciate it.
----------
Clarine went inside the house left to her by her uncle, finally. Looking down at the little boy leaning against the door with her “It was a busy day today Tobin.”


“Yes it was mom. All of those wounds I wrapped, the potions and teas I helped to mix. It was a day.”


“What do you think of becoming a healer?”


“Well . . . I don’t know yet. But, days like today are very fun and exciting.”


“It’s not always like this Tobin.”


“What do you mean mom?”


“When all of the activity dies down, we get to do interesting and exciting chores like recording the day’s events and taking inventory.”


“Oh.” Suddenly the smile fell and Tobin was overtaken by the yawns.


“Get ready to bed down for the night Tobin. It will be another day tomorrow.”


“Alright mom, have a good night.”


“I will Tobin, good night.” Clarine let Tobin go to get ready after a quick kiss on his cheek, lovingly rubbed off when mom was not looking.


“I need to take inventory of what I have first, and then record the events in the morning.” Clarine started pulling out the jars one by one until she heard a thud. “What was that? Everybody in the village should be sleeping.” She stood there for a moment longer listening, but the noise did not return. “Well, I have to get back to what I was doing.”

[James D. Macdonald]

To be brutally honest:

It's true, nothing happens. We're told, but not shown, what healers do. Then we're told that most of what healers do is boring. This doesn't set up high expectations.

So: either start with showing us the wounds being wrapped, or start with the thud.

[smsarber]

Hey, Uncle Jim,

Got a question. In the use of the ever-present cliche, when do you think they can be allowable, or appropriate. I mean, so much of (Americans') daily speach consist of a cliche or two (thousand), so there has to be a use for them in creative writing.
Case-in-point: I posted a story that is not exactly getting rave reviews in the "Mystery/Thriller..." forum, and please no hate mail- I know that I get defensive. But one point stuck out to me. I used the 'well worn cliche'; "like his pants were on fire".
After the critique, I thought about it, then forgot about it. Then thought some more. And it hit me while I was in the shower. I DID put the cliche in there on purpose. It is only a fifteen-hundred word story, and I thought it added to the story.
Here is my point; This is a forum and collection of writers. When we read someone else's work, we see it differently than the 'average reader'. And if said reader can identify with a cliche, well-placed to help the story/book/anecdote on the bathroom stall-door along, um, shouldn't that be acceptable?

[James D. Macdonald]

But one point stuck out to me. I used the 'well worn cliche'; &quot;like his pants were on fire&quot;.


Here's the question: Did you use it in dialog (where it would reveal character about the speaker), or did you use it in narrative (showing that you as the author would rather grab the most common phrase than hand-craft a new one for the reader's delight)? We read (among other reasons) to learn new ways of seeing the world. Make the story yours.

[FOTSGreg]

Jim,

So, what you're saying is essentially, create a character, dump him into the middle of problem he has to fix, then wrap the world around him and forget writing specifically to a particular market. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, try another market.

:)

[smsarber]

Here's the question: Did you use it in dialog (where it would reveal character about the speaker), or did you use it in narrative (showing that you as the author would rather grab the most common phrase than hand-craft a new one for the reader's delight)? We read (among other reasons) to learn new ways of seeing the world. Make the story yours.

Not in the dialogue. Crud, I'm such an idiot! Just kidding, but I see the point. Thanks!

[jbryson]

... I used the 'well worn cliche'; "like his pants were on fire".

Can you arrange for his pants actually to be on fire?

It makes an interesting twist to a cliche`:

Marvin looked as if he'd seen a ghost. That made the ghost laugh.

[jbryson]

I'm one of those writers, who can't write the next sentence until I have the last one right. It's the set-up for the next, after all! And I can't say anything without checking for consistency with what I've said before. Character takes a shotgun down from the wall, I gotta go back and check the shotgun is on the wall.

Now comes NaNoWriMo. Rules are, you can do anything--outline, character define, world-build, but not one word of Ms. So, I'm (seriously) outlining for the first time in my life. NaNoWriMo is 50,000 words. You outline, so, can you guesstimate the wordage of the finished ms, by the number of lines in the outline?

[James D. Macdonald]

You outline, so, can you guesstimate the wordage of the finished ms, by the number of lines in the outline?


When I outline ... well. For a 50,000 word piece, my outline would probably be around 37,500 words. 150 pages.

[FOTSGreg]

Wow! That much in an outline, huh? I mean, I have notes (a lot handwritten in a couple of different notebooks), diagrams, small character profiles or character notes where I think of something that probably ought to go in a book or story, etc., etc., but I doubt I come close to 40:60 split between outline:story...

[James D. Macdonald]

I doubt I come close to 40:60 split between outline:story...

What works for you is best.

[Perle_Rare]

Uncle Jim, out of curiosity, do you then put the outline aside and start fresh for the manuscript? Or do you take the outline document and flesh it out to become the manuscript?

[James D. Macdonald]

What I do with the outline is hand it to Doyle, and she writes a first draft based on it. Then we both edit and re-edit and re-write based on that draft.

[FOTSGreg]

Not having an outline in hand does, however, make it harder to come up with an outline when an editor asks for one in your query process (I've noticed a lot more publishing houses and editors are asking for a synopsis, an outline, and the first 50 pages or first 5 chapters these days - coming up with a synopsis is easy since I always have the book ready before querying, but that outline thing generally stops me cold).

[James D. Macdonald]

BTW, the thing about having a last name of five letters or less if you want to be a Big Name Author is a joke.

Witness James Patterson. It's just that the cover designer has to work a little harder, is all.

[Judg]

OK, now you've broken my heart. I thought I was all set up with my short name... :cry:

(We were joking back...)

[Moonfish]

Yeah, at least I was!

[allenparker]

BTW, the thing about having a last name of five letters or less if you want to be a Big Name Author is a joke.

Witness James Patterson. It's just that the cover designer has to work a little harder, is all.

A joke?!? It was a joke? I just changed my name to Al Park! I hate Al. I despise Al. And Park sucks.


Jeez, now I got to go back to the records room and find out if Jim Patterson is available.

You could have told me earlier.

Where's a moderator when you need one.

Just a naked thought from Al Park.

...Levity is the adversary of academic achievement... My 7th grade teacher.

[James D. Macdonald]

Is it time for another writing assignment? It is! (Inspired by this thread here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112982).)

First, an article for y'all to read: Agents' Chapter 1 Pet Peeves! (http://www.guidetoliteraryagents.com/blog/Agents+Chapter+1+Pet+Peeves.aspx) (from Guide to Literary Agents: Editor's blog) (Added: More Agents' Pet Peeves (http://www.guidetoliteraryagents.com/blog/MORE+Agent+Chapter+1+Pet+Peeves+And+Writing+Cliche s.aspx))

All kinds of great ways to get an agent to stop reading by the end of the first paragraph. For example:

"Anything cliché such as ‘It was a dark and stormy night’ will turn me off. I hate when a narrator or author addresses the reader (e.g., 'Gentle reader')."
- Jennie Dunham, Dunham Literary

Now the challenge: Write an opening including as many of those bugaboos as possible. Shoot for 250 words. 500 at most.

Have fun with it.

[chronomodra]

I think I managed to fit all of them (including the ones from part 2) into this horrible, horrible piece that strives to reach such literary heights as Atlanta Nights:

-------------------

Prologue

Our story begins with Izzy the Barbarian swinging her massive, sharp axe at the head of her foe, who was named Donald after his father, and his father before him. He had brown hair, blue eyes, green shoes, a 6’2” frame, weighed 205 lbs, and his favorite food was pickles. His mangled beard writhed out of his face like the pubic hair of a dwarven woman, and his eyes reminded Izzy of the hard-boiled eggs she had for breakfast the day her father died, the day her quest for vengeance began!

Donald III’s head came off cleanly and satisfyingly with a huge spray of dark red blood. Izzy stepped over his body and moved on to her next target, Marcus VIII. Only 784 more of these guys to go!

Little did she know she was about to die.

Behind her, Jryxian Toodless grinned to himself as he chopped his axe – its silvery blade shimmering in the twin suns of this world, Aramatha – down on Izzy’s neck. Oh no! That’s going to hurt, don’t you think?

Isabelle Jenkins woke up screaming.

Some guy walked up to her table at the coffee shop and mumbled scornfully, “Jeez, get with the program, crazy woman.” Then he walked away, jerking off after talking to her because he was into that sort of thing.

Isabelle stared out the coffee shop’s nearby window and sighed. She kept on having these dreams, and was beginning to realize that they had something to do with her upcoming trip. She’d be flying back home in Podunk, Louisiana for her mother’s funeral, where the town’s local serial killer would make an attempt on her life – not that she knew that yet. All she knew was that she hated the world and everyone in it, because no one understood how she felt. Every day was hard. Really, really hard. So hard that she didn’t know how she got up in the morning, but she did, and it’s a good thing because otherwise our story would end here. But it doesn’t, because as she stared out that window, examining her reflection of blond hair, green eyes, pouty lips, and 5’9” height, she farted.

And that, gentle reader, is how it all began.

Chapter 1

It was a bright and foggy day, Bob the detective thought, but that was probably because he had a hangover…

[smsarber]

Under the watchful eye of Dr. Zhivegas, on a very dark, very stormy summer's evening, Pip started the experiment. Walking the thin line between fantasy and reality in the name of science, he poured the DNA-suspension compound from the glass test-tube into the waiting beaker. Steam hissed, the bubbling liquid turning from red to blue.

Dr. Zhivegas may have been the crazy mad-scientist type you could only imagine to meet in some cheesey novel, but this experiment was Pip's baby. Dearest Reader, you must understand, Pip was the brains in this lab. Zhivegas was nothing. He undoubtedly forged the degree from MIT hanging on the wall. Of course, he would never say so to the Doctor; Pip was a deaf-mute.

Zhivegas laughed and clapped his hands together, though Pip heard nothing. "It looks successful," Pip thought, "please don't realize that." His DNA-suspention formula could be the cure for cancer. Or any other ailment that would ever plague mankind.

The downside was, if Zhivegas knew it worked it would be the downfall of mankind.

And so Pip managed a look of disappointment and took out his small notepad. He quickly scratched out the words "Back to the drawing board," and lifted the pad for Zhivegas to see.

"Oh, if you only knew it does work," thought Pip.
216 words
__________________________________________________ _____________
I laid it on pretty thick, and yes, it was fun. On a personal note, today I have 35 months sobriety!!

[StephanieRose]

Some things that drive me frantic include The Character Describes Himself By Looking in a [mirror/puddle/polished wood on the top of the bar] and Describing What He Sees.

Oh God. I just did this.

*bangs head against keyboard*

[pictopedia]

Prologue
“Most agents hate prologues. Just make the first chapter relevant and well written."*Andrea Brown, Andrea Brown Literary Agency


On a dark and stormy night (a night that could be spent in pleasure),
"A cheesy hook drives me nuts. They say 'Open with a hook!' to grab the reader. That's true, but there's a fine line between an intriguing hook and one that's just silly. An example of a silly hook would be opening with a line of overtly sexual dialogue. Or opening with a hook that's just too convoluted to be truly interesting."*Daniel Lazar, Writers House
instead of in the kitchen of this spooky old house,
"Anything*cliché*such as ‘It was a dark and stormy night’ will turn me off” *Jennie Dunham, Dunham Literary*
I, gentle reader, being stranded in this old house in flight from the approaching storm ,
"I hate when a narrator or*author addresses the reader*(e.g., 'Gentle reader')."*Jennie Dunham, Dunham Literary
got lost in my reflection in the window. My wonderful chest,
Some things that drive me frantic include The Character Describes Himself By Looking in a [mirror/puddle/polished wood on the top of the bar] and Describing What He Sees. This goes double if the character is female and goes on to a complete and loving description of her breasts.” James MacDonald
dark eyes, thin waist, stripes,
"I hate seeing a 'run-down list:' Names, hair color, eye color, height, even weight sometimes.* Other things that bother me is over-describing the scenery or area where the story starts.* Usually a manuscript can lose the first 3-5 chapters and start there.*Miriam Hees (editor), Blooming Tree Press
my zig-zag shaped antennas.
"Slow writing with a lot of description puts me off very quickly. I like a first chapter that moves quickly and draws me in so I'm immediately hooked."*Andrea Hurst, Andrea Hurst Literary Management
My parents didn’t call me “Izzy” for nothing. I was a bee, and proud of it.
"I’m really turned off by a protagonist named Isabelle who goes by 'Izzy.' No. Really. I am."*Stephany Evans, FinePrint Literary Management.
But let me tell you this, dear reader:
“I recently read a ms when the second line was something like, 'Let me tell you this, Dear Reader...' What do you think of that?"*Sheree Bykofsky, Sheree Bykofsky Literary
I am not a fan of self reflection, (although a few lingering moments might be forgiven)
I’m also usually not a fan of prologues, preferring to find myself in the midst of a moving plot on page 1 rather than being kept outside of it, or eased into it."*Michelle Andelman, Andrea Brown Literary Agency
no matter what shape or form I take on. My name is Isabell,
"I don't like an opening line that's 'My name is...,' introducing the narrator to the reader so blatantly. I might be prompted to groan before reading on a bit further to see if the narration gets any less stale. There are far better ways in Chapter 1 to establish an instant connection between narrator and reader.*Michelle Andelman, Andrea Brown Literary Agency
and I am a selfless liberal and eco warrior, a mutant.
I don't like having a character immediately tell me how much he/she hates the world for whatever reason.* In other words, tell me your issues on politics, the environment, etc. through your character.* That is a real turn off to me."*Miriam Hees (editor), Blooming Tree Press
Nobody will ever know of the great battles that I fight against the other races.
"I know this may sound obvious, but too much 'telling' vs. 'showing' in the first chapter is a definite warning sign for me – the first chapter should present a compelling scene, not a road map for the rest of the book. The goal is to make the reader curious about your characters, fill their heads with questions that must be answered, not fill them in on exactly where, when, who and how.* Don’t ever describe eye color either..."*Emily Sylvan Kim, Prospect Agency

I sighed and looked out of the window. I didn’t know what else to do.
"Characters that are moving around doing little things, but essentially nothing.*Washing dishes & thinking, staring out the window & thinking, tying shoes, thinking ... Authors often do this to transmit information, but the result is action in a literal sense but no real energy in a*narrative sense. The best rule of thumb is always to start the story where the story starts."*Dan Lazar, Writers House
I looked into the darkness at the clouds and listened to the stormy wind,
"Avoid any description of the weather."*Denise Marcil, Denise Marcil Literary Agency
when suddenly, I woke up.
Long prologues that often don't have anything to do with the story. So common in Fantasy again.* Opening scenes that our all dialogue without any context. I could probably go on..."*Kristin Nelson, Nelson Literary



Chapter 1

It had all been a dream. I had dreamed I was a bee.
"I dislike opening scenes that you think are real (I rep adult genre fiction), then the protagonist wakes up. It makes me feel cheated.* And so many writers use this hackneyed device.*Laurie McLean, Larsen/Pomada Literary Agents
I shook my head. I didn’t understand this reincarnation (I would find that out later)
I also hate when an author starts something and then says '(the main character) would find out later.'**Cherry Weiner, Cherry Weiner Literay
Shaking my head made it hurt. I remembered the long night in the metro bars
"I do in fact hate it when someone wakes up from a dream in Chapter 1,*Michelle Brower, Wendy Sherman Associates.
and squinted into the sunlight of the three suns over Omega462.
Squinting into the sunlight with a hangover in a crime novel. Good grief -- been done a million times.*Chip MacGregor, MacGregor Literary
The landscape was sort of like a desert on earth. Red dust was swirling.
A sci-fi novel that spends the first two pages describing the strange landscape.*Chip MacGregor, MacGregor Literary
The sky was blue and cloudless.
'The Weather' is always a problem” Elizabeth Pomada, Larsen-Pomada Literary Agents
Suddenly, I heard the swords. I turned and realized that I was in battle. I had been knocked out by the monk. I had liked him initially.
I dislike lengthy paragraphs of world building and scene setting up front.* I usually crave action close to the beginning of the book (and so do readers)."*Laurie McLean, Larsen/Pomada Literary Agents*
We used to gather herbs together, we even peed side by side, and now, he tried to kill me.
"Here are things I can't stand: Cliché openings in Fantasy can include an opening scene set in a battle (and my peeve is that I don't know any of the characters yet so why should I care about this battle) or with a pastoral scene where the protagonist is gathering herbs (I didn't realize how common this is).* Opening chapters where a main protagonist is in the middle of a bodily function (jerking off, vomiting, peeing, or what have you) is usually a firm NO right from the get-go. Gross.*Kristin Nelson, Nelson Literary*
As the sword of the monk cut through me, I suddenly understood the dream. I would be a bee in my next incarnation.
"I don't like it when the main character dies at the end of Chapter 1. Why did I just spend all this time with this character? I feel cheated."*Cricket Freeman, The August Agency

As the monk leaned over the body of the woman, he hardly knew,
"Sometimes a reasonably good writer will create an interesting character and describe him in a compelling way, but then he’ll turn out to be some unimportant bit player.*Ellen Pepus, Ellen Pepus Literary Agency*
he felt nothing. He reflected about their moments together. He throught fondly of the voluptuous, precious herbs, but she left no impression on his inner self.
"I hate reading purple prose, taking the time to set up-- to describe something so beautifully and that has nothing to do with the actual story.*Cherry Weiner, Cherry Weiner Litera
Suddenly he was tired of fighting. He retreated to meditate.
and I dislike an overly long prologue.* The worst thing that you can do is let that crucial chapter be boring - that’s the chapter that has to grab my interest!"*Michelle Brower, Wendy Sherman Associates
But as he was sitting in his cell, all he thought about was sex and violence
I hate gratuitous sex and violence anywhere in the manuscript.* If it is not crucial to the story then I don't want to see it in there, in any chapters."*Cherry Weiner, Cherry Weiner Literay
He replayed the rape of the village girl in the chapel by his brothers.
A rape scene in a Christian novel, especially in the first chapter.*Chip MacGregor, MacGregor Literary
“You go girl”, they had said.
A trite statement ("Get with the program" or "Houston, we have a problem" or "You go girl" or "Earth to Michael" or "Are we all on the same page?"), said by a weenie sales guy, usually in the opening paragraph.*Chip MacGregor, MacGregor Literary
“Are we all on the same page?” he wondered. He didn’t think he would see this as he came from his small town, to attend his uncle's funeral. It had started with the phonecall, then the hunchback who had been lurking in the shadows of the columns planted the bomb, and war began.
Other annoying, unoriginal things I see too often: some young person going home to a small town for a funeral, someone getting a phone call about a death, a description of a psycho lurking in the shadows, or a terrorist planting a bomb."Ellen Pepus, Ellen Pepus Literary Agency*
And now, the glittering, flickering sun rose in the hostile, hazy sky, shedding its fearful light across the deserted, crumbled, broken land.
*"The [adjective] [adjective] sun rose in the [adjective] [adjective] sky, shedding its [adjective] light across the [adjective] [adjective] [adjective] land."*Chip MacGregor, MacGregor Literary
Years later, he would look back and laugh but, here and then, life was kind of hard.
'Years later, Monica would look back and laugh...'*Chip MacGregor, MacGregor Literary

[pictopedia]

492 words. I tried to make every word a sin.

In the article it said that the "really good" agent comments will appear in the next issue, and that these quotes here are just the ones that didn't make it into print. I'd love to know what those good ones are.

[Calliopenjo]

Here is my attempt at this. I'm not sure it's as entertaining as the others, but here it is anyway.

Word count: 497
===========
Hi grateful dearest reader. “My name is Izzy. It’s short for Isabelle. I’m 4’10” tall, weigh 100 pounds but only if my hair’s wet, I have bright red hair, and green eyes. And my dad, he’s 5’9” tall, weigh 250 pounds of mostly muscle, he has chocolate brown hair, and chocolate brown eyes. He also farts a lot just like he’s doing now. Especially during a fight. Uh oh, wait a minute I’ll be back. I have to fight” Pow wow swish of the swords as came together in a “Wait a minute, what happened? They all fell down. They don’t even have any blood on them. See? You don’t think I farted do you. I don’t smell anything because during a battle it can smell really raw, but it’s not that way now. Come with me, I have to look for dad. His name is Bubba just like his dad before him. Then there’s Uncle Bubba, but he’s not a warrior he’s a fisherman and his sons Big Bubba and Little Bubba they don’t fish at all. They design clothes. They’re all eating chili right now because there’s a cook off in town. I’m tired; I’m going to sit down on the rock.” Izzy sat there looking at her reflection in the mirror lake, sitting there thinking, looking at her reflection as it rippled in the water.
She woke up suddenly from the dream, hearing the telephone ring. She answered the telephone listening to her Aunt tell her that her third cousin died. She needs to go back to Poopoodoo, a sneeze town just outside of Boston. It’s called a sneeze town because if you sneeze you’ll miss it. It’s not even on any map. She listened as her Aunt told her that it was a dark and stormy night, the lightening was fierce without any light in the sky. He pulled over to the side of the road wanting to pee, but the lightening struck the tree and broke it off so he bled to death. Her Aunt made her promise, never to pull over to pee. Then she yelled to tell me to get with the program before declaring Houston, we have a problem. We do have a problem because the world is evil. It’s evil because the United States government brought us to war no thanks to that good for nothing Republican President, what’s his face. I mean really. We could do a lot better. The other thing I don’t like is that he is Pro Life. It’s my body and I get to do with it whatever I want. So it can’t be right. If I want to kill my baby I should be able to without a problem. It can’t be alive yet anyway. It’s not considered alive until it’s born and it’s not even born yet. So there.

[pictopedia]

I've been carrying this question around with me for two days now, about one of the agent's quotes:

"I don't like an opening line that's 'My name is...,' introducing the narrator to the reader so blatantly. I might be prompted to groan before reading on a bit further to see if the narration gets any less stale. There are far better ways in Chapter 1 to establish an instant connection between narrator and reader.
Michelle Andelman, Andrea Brown Literary Agency

I keep wondering: what are these far better ways to establish an instant connection between the narrator and reader? Isn't the only strong connection a reader has at the beginning a curiosity as to what happens next to that person the chapter is starting with? We don't know him or her yet, and if we follow the rule of not too much description, we hardly know what he looks like, and if we follow the rule of not too much scene setting, we hardly know where he/she is. So all that is left is just "a guy, probably a lawyer, driving up an elevator, wondering about the other guy" (like in Grisham's "The street lawyer").

Am I over-interpreting that agent statement, or is there really something that must be there at the beginning? And if yes, what is it?

[Liosse de Velishaf]

I've been carrying this question around with me for two days now, about one of the agent's quotes:

"I don't like an opening line that's 'My name is...,' introducing the narrator to the reader so blatantly. I might be prompted to groan before reading on a bit further to see if the narration gets any less stale. There are far better ways in Chapter 1 to establish an instant connection between narrator and reader.
Michelle Andelman, Andrea Brown Literary Agency

I keep wondering: what are these far better ways to establish an instant connection between the narrator and reader? Isn't the only strong connection a reader has at the beginning a curiosity as to what happens next to that person the chapter is starting with? We don't know him or her yet, and if we follow the rule of not too much description, we hardly know what he looks like, and if we follow the rule of not too much scene setting, we hardly know where he/she is. So all that is left is just "a guy, probably a lawyer, driving up an elevator, wondering about the other guy" (like in Grisham's "The street lawyer").

Am I over-interpreting that agent statement, or is there really something that must be there at the beginning? And if yes, what is it?


I don't see that as a very useful note. It really depens on the type of story being told. Perhaps we have someone telling a story to someone they met in a bar, or to a reporter, or any other type of one-on-one interaction, where the two participants may not be very familiar with each other. For that, this note by the agent seems a little pointless. There's nothing inherently wrong with such an opening if it fits the story.

There are many ways to incite reader interest, and they are all dependent on the realities of the rest of the story. It's good to keep those thoughts in mind, but there's no forumla for a good opening.

[Perle_Rare]

The way I understood it, the agent's issue is with the narrator introducing himself / herself to the reader directly rather than to another character. From the quote, it sounds like the agent considers this type of opening as being sadly overused. She recommends using a more imaginative opening line instead.

Frankly, I'd have to concur.

Better ways to establish connection? Hook the reader so they keep reading. Make them curious about what's about to happen. "My name is..." doesn't qualify as a hook for me as a reader because I haven't been given a reason to care yet. :Shrug:

Just my (inexpert) opinion...

[jbryson]

The way I understood it, the agent's issue is with the narrator introducing himself / herself to the reader directly rather than to another character. From the quote, it sounds like the agent considers this type of opening as being sadly overused. She recommends using a more imaginative opening line instead.

Frankly, I'd have to concur.

Better ways to establish connection? Hook the reader so they keep reading. Make them curious about what's about to happen. "My name is..." doesn't qualify as a hook for me as a reader because I haven't been given a reason to care yet. :Shrug:

Just my (inexpert) opinion...
"My name is..." is a whole sentence, with one piece of info.

"Karen had heard the horror stories about kids who ran away from home."
That's two bits, and starts the story.

Want a description? Ok:
“Mr. Bailey?” Karen guessed as she pulled down her hood, brushing her red hair off blue eyes and freckles.

She's been in a parka up to now, anyway.

[smsarber]

I get that. The novel I am working on (2nd draft) opens; 'My name is Dexter Simmons. I was born December 31, 1975. Today is January 1, 2007, and I have made a resolution. On my thirty-fifth birthday I will end my life.'

This book is the MC's long suicide note, so I use the 'My name is...' to establish his connection to the reader as if it were a letter, as essentially it is. But I don't think I would use it in another type of novel.

"A Birthday Suicide" 1st draft complete 53,000 words

[pictopedia]

I can't see anything wrong with that. It hooks me. But maybe what she meant was the "my name is.." part, not the general "I am dadada" introduction.

@smasarber
I just left the "My name is" part away, and I have the feeling the start is getting stronger by it:

I was born December 31, 1975. Today is January 1, 2007, and I have made a resolution. On my thirty-fifth birthday I will end my life.'

What do you think?

[pictopedia]

I was born twice: first, as a baby girl, on a remarkably smogless Detroit day in January of 1960: and then again, as a teenage boy, in an emergency room near Petoskey, Michigan, in August of 1974. Specialised readers have come across me in Dr. Peter Luce's study "Gender Identity in 5-Alpha-Reductase Phseudohermaphrodites," published in the Journal of Pediatric Endocrinology in 1975.

Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenide, Pulitzer Price winning oevre, unconcerned brushing along some of the sins in the first sentences, IMHO, without getting noticeably damaged:
-"I introduction"
-"specialised reader" (getting close to "my dear reader", no?)
-"Alpha Centaury whateverthatis medical study title", mega detail I don't care about right now.

Grrr, I hate it, when they (the great writers) can do whatever they want, and all others must follow rules.

[Shweta]

I was born twice: first, as a baby girl, on a remarkably smogless Detroit day in January of 1960: and then again, as a teenage boy, in an emergency room near Petoskey, Michigan, in August of 1974. Specialised readers have come across me in Dr. Peter Luce's study "Gender Identity in 5-Alpha-Reductase Phseudohermaphrodites," published in the Journal of Pediatric Endocrinology in 1975.

Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenide, Pulitzer Price winning oevre, unconcerned brushing along some of the sins in the first sentences, IMHO, without getting noticeably damaged:
-"I introduction"
-"specialised reader" (getting close to "my dear reader", no?)
-"Alpha Centaury whateverthatis medical study title", mega detail I don't care about right now.

Grrr, I hate it, when they (the great writers) can do whatever they want, and all others must follow rules.
But:

- "I was born twice" is weird and draws attention. It makes the reader ask "What now?" I think "I introductions" are only a problem when the "I" is not inherently, immediately fascinating. It gets to look like they think they're so great but they're not; it fails the "make the reader care" test. When that sort of introduction really is intriguing, though, the problem goes poof.

It's like those people who talk a whole lot about themselves and they're really boring versus the fascinating people with fascinating lives who you want to listen to.

- The weather note tells us something about the location and what it's like to be in that location.

- First as a girl, then a boy: no transgender operation this, if it happens in an emergency room. The question remains, gets more intriguing, not less.

- The medical note adds authenticity - that is such a plausible medical case study title. It also tells us that the character is probably one of the first people to have a problem that's affecting the world at large. And you can skim over it or look at the word. Me, I think pseudo-hermaphrodites are going to be fascinating.

- The flattened tone, just the facts ma'am, is intriguing here, because there are such weird things happening. The narrator's voice is not over-dramatizing; the events are standing for themselves.

So while it's breaking a number of "rules", each one is broken for a reason.

Really I think these rules can be translated:

1) Don't mention the weather = don't be boring and irrelevant.
2) Don't introduce the character to the reader = don't be cute and irrelevant.
3) Don't talk about when the character was born = don't be boring and irrelevant.
4) Don't use jargon = don't be boring and irrelevant and confusing.

[James D. Macdonald]

Now to reveal my didactic plan:

First: Y'see how easy writing 250 words is? Go thou and do likewise every day for a year and you'll have your novel.

Second: Take the opportunity to use the cheesy openings; get 'em out of your system.

Third: There are no rules. Only guidelines. The reason these openings are instant-rejection is because they're common. Nothing about using them suggests to the agent that there's going to be anything original on the second page, either.

Grrr, I hate it, when they (the great writers) can do whatever they want, and all others must follow rules.

The first, and only, rule is: If it works, it's right. (The next, only a little less-than-a-rule, is: Be interesting.)

Oh, from that other thread, my own tiny contribution to use-cliches-in-your-opening contest:

"Take me, you raging stud!" Angelina Jolie's lips brushed my earlobe.

The alarm clock rang, blending with the sound of rain on the roof. What a funny dream I'd been having! Just then I felt something stir around my feet. It was another terrorist, planting another bomb under my bed.

"Damn it," I hissed. "Isn't there some other bed you guys can bomb? Every day, same thing...."

"Sorry, Guv'nor," the terrorist said. "Gots me orders, I does."

Cockney Liberation Army. Again. I turned over and tried to get back into my dream, the one where Angelina Jolie just wouldn't take 'no' for an answer.

I did screw up a bit. The opening turned out interesting.

If I went on and wrote this as a novel, when I reached "The End" I might go back and cut these few paragraphs. Or maybe not.

======

smsarber: Do you think you can find a 30,000 word subplot to stir into the mix?

[smsarber]

smsarber: Do you think you can find a 30,000 word subplot to stir into the mix?


Uncle Jim, I will asume you mean can I get "ABS" up to 80,000 words. That is my intention. A lot of the first draft left room for expansion. I know it is probably not the way most would advise; to have the first draft so much shorter than the estimation for the finished product, but it's the way it turned out.
Much of the time I would sit down and force myself to write something in the book, anything. Knowing I can go back and change whatever I am not happy with. Also, I have improved as a writer during the writing of the first, so a good deal of the first will be changed, improved (hopefully), and new ideas will abound. So to give a long-winded answer to your short question; Yes, a 30,000 word subplot could be in the mix. And maybe not. I will find out as I take the journey.
Thanks, UJ

[IdiotsRUs]

Cockney Liberation Army.

This book needs to be written. Pretty please?

[Melenka]

Uncle Jim,
It is incredibly unfair that you can write that horrid opening and still make me want to read the book. Cut that out.

[James D. Macdonald]

It is incredibly unfair that you can write that horrid opening and still make me want to read the book.

I'm a highly-trained stunt writer on a closed course. Don't try this at home, kids.


Or, actually, try it at home.

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

What's a monologue? I take it to mean that only one person is speaking. Without anybody commenting or continuing with the conversation. Am I on the right track?