Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1 [Archive] - Page 26

sonya bateman

06-14-2007, 05:45 PM

Hey there, Uncle Jim...

I tried to find an answer to this somewhere in the thread already. I scoured the indices to no avail. If this has already been asked, I apologize.

I'm experiencing Second Novel Syndrome -- kind of. (And oh, what fun I'm having.) See, at first I thought I was just making the term up... one of those things I thought I heard somewhere before, only to find I hadn't. But I Googled it and found a blog entry Tess Gerritsen wrote on the subject, so I guess it exists.

Woe is me.

The thing is, the first book hasn't even been sold yet. I have an agent (Cameron McClure with the Donald Maass Agency... sigh, happy me). And I'm currently (ACK!!!!) on submission. Cue dramatic music. Just before my novel went out in NYC, Joe Konrath announced that he was also on submission, and warned that being in this condition brought out the neurotic in all of us. Too right. I'm doing everything I told myself I'd try not to do -- checking e-mail obsessively, carrying the phone around waiting for it to ring, dreaming of big offers and no offers and the sudden demise of civilization as we know it that would prevent me from getting a deal.

I know the best thing is to write the next book. And. I. Can't. Do. It.

The next book is a sequel to the one my agent is shopping. I've already delivered the outline. It's a good outline (they tell me). I think it will be a good book. But I just can't write it. I despise every word I type into my WIP (and there aren't that many there yet... my progress is painfully slow). I'm appalled at myself. I wrote the one before this in a month.

This is not literally my second novel. Before the one my agent has, I wrote two under-the-beds, four of six in another series, and a stand-alone (published through a small e-press).

Why can't I write this book? Should I just put it aside and work on something else... book five in the other series (my agent's taking a look at those after this one sells), another stand-alone (I have two started)? Should I take a hammer to my computer, stock up on notebooks and move to a cabin somewhere? What the heck happened? I'm usually a high-volume writer -- this lack of output is driving me mad...

Help? <---says the tiny, sad, desperate voice

Thank you. :)

ArdillaNegra

06-16-2007, 08:32 AM

Would it be out of the blue to chime in now?

I'm a few years late in coming, it seems, and I have a heck of a lot of catching up to do... but I got to page 49 before deciding I might as well just say "Hello" while I do it.

I'm sure you've heard this thousands of times already, but thank you. Really. I've been reading this forum more than I've been writing over the last few days, but I think it was necessary. I write pretty much constantly, but I was making the same mistakes (rather, faux pas) and grinding them into my habits. Dangerous territory! I've read tons of advice over the years but it always seemed pointless because I'd just read it and dismiss it as opinion, and convince myself that I was entitled to do whatever I pleased. And I'd keep on doing what I was doing. For some reason, this forum actually drove it home for me that I CAN technically do whatever I want, but it can often be to my own detriment. Maybe this forum magically cures excessive hubris. Or maybe it was the Myrtle story that finally did it.

Either way, in the few paragraphs I've written since beginning to read this, I've already noticed a marked improvement. I don't think I've gone a day without at least thinking about writing since early childhood, but this is the first time in awhile that it's excited me like this. Maybe because I'm getting out of my usual style-rut, or maybe because I have more confidence. I don't know what it is. But I'm liking it. I think I'm ready to go back to my regular writing-binge diet. And I'm definitely going to keep on reading.

(I noticed that there was talk about making a compilation of the more salient bits. Did that come to any fruition? It might be a bit crazy to ask now, considering how long ago that was, but it can't hurt to check.)

Anyway-- hello, all! And thanks again for the wonderful advice and tips.

-Grace

asorum

06-16-2007, 12:35 PM

I know it's to going take a while to get from page 6 to here, but...

The comment, "...and they were all run over by a truck," made me start laughing. Has anyone read The Brave Cowboy by Ed Abbey?

James D. Macdonald

06-16-2007, 12:58 PM

Should I just put it aside and work on something else... book five in the other series (my agent's taking a look at those after this one sells), another stand-alone (I have two started)?

Yes, put it aside. If the one on submission doesn't sell it won't have a sequel.

No, don't work on something in another series.

First, write a short story to clear your palate. (See above, this year's Christmas Challenge for one possible way to do this. Hey, mine sold.)

Next, write a totally stand-alone book. Do it this way: Three pages a day, without fail, for three straight months. At the end of that time you will have a book -- and you'll probably have a call-back from your agent.

And watch a couple of movies along the way. And read a few novels just for fun. You have to top off your fun tank. It may be getting low.

James D. Macdonald

06-16-2007, 01:02 PM

(I noticed that there was talk about making a compilation of the more salient bits. Did that come to any fruition? It might be a bit crazy to ask now, considering how long ago that was, but it can't hurt to check.)

Well, yes.

There's the Uncle Jim Undiluted thread, but more than that, there's a book that's in progress based on this thread. My beloved wife and co-author is whipping this raw material into shape. We'll see what comes of that.

Just my posts alone come to over a thousand pages in manuscript format so you see there's some room for trimming and condensation.

sonya bateman

06-16-2007, 03:25 PM

Yes, put it aside. If the one on submission doesn't sell it won't have a sequel.

No, don't work on something in another series.

First, write a short story to clear your palate. (See above, this year's Christmas Challenge for one possible way to do this. Hey, mine sold.)

Next, write a totally stand-alone book. Do it this way: Three pages a day, without fail, for three straight months. At the end of that time you will have a book -- and you'll probably have a call-back from your agent.

And watch a couple of movies along the way. And read a few novels just for fun. You have to top off your fun tank. It may be getting low.

Thank you! I think I'll do that. I can see where my fun tank might be getting low. :D

triceretops

06-16-2007, 05:08 PM

aertep

06-16-2007, 08:29 PM

Hey, a shout out to Grace. Welcome. And good morning to all. I'm always glad when I see an e-mail telling me there's action on this thread.

Keep reading to catch up, Grace. There's so much stuff in here (good and weird), you don't want to miss a word.

I'm glad to hear the book is in progress, Uncle Jim. Talk about a great gift!

Scribhneoir

06-16-2007, 11:59 PM

Well, yes.

There's the Uncle Jim Undiluted thread, but more than that, there's a book that's in progress based on this thread.

Yay!:hooray:

Now, I have a request. For the past few weeks I've been stuck in a rut of write-and-delete, write-and-delete, unable to come up with words of even minimal first draft quality. Please, Uncle Jim, will you give me permission to write crap? I need help before this rut turns into a chasm.

huggy4ever

06-17-2007, 02:02 AM

Thank you so much for the information provided. I appreciate it very much. I hope you have a wonderful weekend!

James D. Macdonald

06-17-2007, 04:03 AM

You have my official permission to Write Crap.

sonya bateman

06-17-2007, 04:09 AM

Yog's right. I'm living proof. When my agent took on my book and raved about it, I went right into a sequel, thinking that we had it sewed up for a sale. One year later--the prequel has not sold. Where does that leave the sequel? You guessed it.

Tri

Ouch. That really stinks, man...

I must mope for a bit now. :D Seriously, though, I do agree it's a good idea to work on something completely different for now. My agent has been wonderful about keeping me updated on the progress of submissions, so that's been a big relief (even though the answer so far has been "nothing much yet").

The Maass Agency does a lot of work with series, and I think that's why I've been stuck on this "must write series!" kick. But hey, if this one sells as a series, sweet -- I can write the next book after the contract, and hopefully by then I'll be un-blocked.

Now, if only I can keep this one from turning into a series, too... sigh. My novels have a tendency to lend themselves to multiple books. :D

Thanks again for the advice!

jordijoy

06-17-2007, 04:21 AM

My previous agent raved about a ms I had submitted to her. She signed me to her agency and advised me to get to work immediately on three or four more ms all in the same vein. It was a work of multicultural fiction. I was at that time—and still am working on a SF manuscript that I’m excited about—on most days. I didn’t take her advises and continued to work on the SF. A year later when I parted company with that agent I was very happy that I hadn’t listen to her grand plans, considering nothing became of the first ms. Could you imagine my horror if I’d got cranking’ on three or four more?!!!!:rant:

James D. Macdonald

06-17-2007, 09:05 AM

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/permission.pdf

asorum

06-17-2007, 09:08 AM

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/permission.pdf

Awesome, I needed this!

aertep

06-17-2007, 10:41 AM

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/permission.pdf

Gonna replace my color cartridge tomorrow so the little seal will print in gold.

Scribhneoir

06-17-2007, 11:50 AM

You have my official permission to Write Crap.

Thank you. :Hail: Official permission makes all the difference.

I filled in my name and posted the permission grant prominently in my workspace. Then I started writing. I finished a scene and it actually turned out pretty good. I'm back to making progress. Thanks, Uncle Jim!

James D. Macdonald

06-25-2007, 05:34 AM

So there I was, reading the Writer Beware blog (http://accrispin.blogspot.com/2007/06/victoria-strauss-queen-for-day.html), when I read this:

April 29 was apparently Say Nice Things About Michele Glance Rooney Day, because encomiums are offered by yet another lone-post blog. No book sale this time, but Super Writer is happy to describe how she (or he) Was Motivated By Michele Glance Rooney. "I had the good fortune of seeing Michele Glance Rooney speak at a writer's convention, and I feel newly determined and dedicated to finishing my book project...I am half-way through chapter 8 and I've figured out how the hero is finally going to excape [sic] from the wrath of Mr. Bunstable." (No, no, not Mr. Bunstable! Please...I'll do anything...AIEEEEEE!)

And I was instantly inspired.

Bunstable. Willard Bunstable. The name alone was enough to bring a strong man to his knees. Now Edwin sat in his rented room -- rented by the week, semi-furnished -- and awaited the coming of Willard Bunstable.

A footstep on the stair. A floorboard creaked in the hall. A knock sounded on the cracked door. Edwin opened it timorously. The words came out in a rush:

"Mr. Bunstable! I have it. I mean I'll have it. Thursday. All of the money. I swear!"

Then he noticed that the person standing in the door wasn't wearing a greasy yellow-plaid suit. Wasn't wearing a sneer. Wasn't, in fact, a man. It was flame-haired Jasmine, the smiling minx from the corner donut shop.

"Bunstable problems?" she asked. "Lots of folks have them 'round here. How'd you like to get out of his debt ... permanently?"

For the first time in a month hope suffused Edwin's features. He waved his hand in a gesture of welcome, sweeping her into the room. She walked to the sofa by the window and sat, crossing her legs high up, and leaned back. Edwin shut the door and turned to face her.

"You mean it? Permanently?"

She nodded her head in assent. "Depends on how bad you want it."

"Anything!"

"We'll see." Her smile turned predatory. "We'll see...."

She opened her handbag and pulled out a Colt .45 automatic. She laid the pistol on the couch beside her.

"You aren't asking me to kill Bunstable, are you?"

"No. Nothing that easy." She stared into Edwin's eyes. "But Bunstable will be out of your life. Forever."

My friends, inspiration is all around us. And you don't even have to hear a scam agent speak at a writers' conference to get it.

Crap? Of course it is! It's first draft. But it's over a page in manuscript format, which means I'm well on the way to a nice, satisfying 6,000 word (24 pages in manuscript format) short story.

Race ya to the end!

aertep

06-25-2007, 09:47 AM

So there I was, reading the Writer Beware blog (http://accrispin.blogspot.com/2007/06/victoria-strauss-queen-for-day.html), when I read this:

And I was instantly inspired.

Bunstable.

I love it! And when I read it on the blog all I could think of was Bunburying (which I may have incorrectly), from "The Importance of Being Earnest."

James D. Macdonald

07-03-2007, 07:28 AM

Ported from Another Thread (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69217):

Should I register my novel's copyright before sending it out to an agent?

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: The book probably won't sell anyway, so that's $45 you'll never see again.

Even longer answer: Copyright exists automatically from the moment the work is first fixed in tangible form. The records you make in the course of doing your everyday business, your printouts, your rough drafts, provide more than adequate proof of your original composition.

Longer answer still: Publishers routinely copyright works in their authors' names. Breaking that routine slows them down and costs them. When a new book comes out with a copyright date that's some years earlier (and face it, if you sold your work tomorrow it probably wouldn't hit the shelves for a couple of years) readers in bookstores looking at that date would figure that the book was old, or a reprint. Many would put it back in search of something new.

Go ahead, copyright your book if you have money to burn and can't get to sleep otherwise, but understand that you're wasting your time and money. There is no market for pirated slush. None at all.

Among agents there are two basic kinds: Honest and dishonest. Honest agents aren't going to pirate your work because they don't just want this book, they want your next, and your next, and your next.... Someone who can write a publishable manuscript is rare enough that they aren't going to throw him or her away for a one-shot advantage, and if a book is successful the odds that you wouldn't learn of it approach zero.

A dishonest agent isn't going to pirate the book either, because they couldn't sell a book, even a publishable one, if you held a gun to their head. How are they going to sell a pirated work? Their source of income lies in the fees they collect from writers. Plus, again, if the book has any kind of success, you're certain to find out, and their cheese will be in the slicer for sure then.

An honest publisher isn't going to buy a pirated manuscript because, not only they are honest, but they're going to want to work with the writer to improve the work. No one but the original author could possibly do that.

A dishonest publisher isn't going to "buy" a pirated work because their business depends on the author himself buying multiple copies of his own book to peddle at flea markets. Who's going to have so much ego invested in a manuscript they stole to pay thousands of dollars to pretend to be its author and go from bookstore to bookstore begging the managers to carry a copy?

and

I don't know why you feel you have to say that. I'm not sure what your publishing success is, but the fact that I'm not sure what it is may in fact say something about it. Be that as it may, I don't know if my book will sell. What I do know, is that you certainly don't know whether or not my book will sell. Even if it never sells, you only guessed lucky, 50/50, not because you are aware of my potential in some greater measure than I am.

If one hundred people that I never saw before in my life leapt to their feet in front of me, each one waving a manuscript and saying, "It's my first novel! Will it sell?" I would say to each, "Probably not," without reading a word because for ninety-nine out of those hundred it's true: The book won't sell.

Yes, you have to write the book the best you can.

Yes, you have to polish it until it shines.

Yes, you have to send it out 'til Hell won't have it.

But yes, you have to start writing your next novel (and not a sequel to this one!) the next day, because this one probably won't sell.

Simplifying and moving over out of novels for a minute for the sake of example:

Let's say that you're a short-story writer. Let's say that you write ten stories, and copyright them all. Let's say that one of them sells for $450 (and both of those numbers are completely believable for professional-level short story writers -- selling one out of ten is typical, and $450 for a 9,000 word story is reasonable). At that point, had you copyrighted every one of them your profit would be zero.

Why would you bet $45 on very long odds that have no payoff at all even if you win?

SecretScribe

07-03-2007, 03:58 PM

Dear James

I understand all the copyright issues raised above, but what about story ideas. Forinstance - let's say you have a really fab plot twist in a mystery novel, you send out lots of queries and synopses all over the place and next thing you know there is a book (not your book) written by someone else, containing this very clever plot twist. You can't exactly use it anymore, so your manuscript would basically be even less likely to be published than it was to begin with.

My understanding is that you can't copyright ideas, on the actual writing. But even then, can you actually claim copyright for the idea/plot twist?:Shrug:

James D. Macdonald

07-03-2007, 06:18 PM

No, you can't copyright plot twists either. Just the actual words on actual paper.

There was one fellow who tried patenting a plot, I think, but I don't know if that was ever challenged in court, and I think it's more a symptom of how the patent system is broken than a real solution to a real problem.

Any plot twist has probably been done before, hundreds or thousands of times, all the way back to Gilgamesh. Plot is only one element of your novel in any case. And ideas -- everyone has ideas. That's why "I have a great idea for a book! You write it and we'll split the money!" is so funny.

By the time you have a unique enough description of your plot twist to copyright it -- you have your novel.

Sailor Kenshin

07-03-2007, 07:36 PM

No, you can't copyright plot twists either. Just the actual words on actual paper.

There was one fellow who tried patenting a plot, I think, but I don't know if that was ever challenged in court, and I think it's more a symptom of how the patent system is broken than a real solution to a real problem.

Any plot twist has probably been done before, hundreds or thousands of times, all the way back to Gilgamesh. Plot is only one element of your novel in any case. And ideas -- everyone has ideas. That's why "I have a great idea for a book! You write it and we'll split the money!" is so funny.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, you could write it and I'd split the money with you. ;)

aertep

07-03-2007, 08:18 PM

http://www.copyright.gov/ has a thorough FAQ section. (It didn't answer my question, but it answered just about everything else!) It's a useful website and easy to navigate.

allenparker

07-03-2007, 08:51 PM

My mother recently embarked on a partnership. The agreement was for her friend to supply good solid stories written in long hand and ready for a writer to complete. My mother would, of course fill in the "details" and make the story into a novel.

I stood by, small voice recorder in one hand and pop corn in the other.

The first storyline was fabulous! Ever read Gone With the Wind? Not simply close, but identical.

Second story equally good, or at least as good as a man against whale story could be....

Ahab, the Arab whaler was a colorful character, to be sure, but hardly believable.

Mom wanted to end this after two ideas, but I begged her to continue. I need at least four to complete my short story :-)

Spiny Norman

07-03-2007, 09:58 PM

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, you could write it and I'd split the money with you. ;)

I never tell anyone I write because then everyone would want me to write their stuff.

I always say, "That's a great idea! How far along are you with it?" And then they say, "Not far at all, do you want to help?"

Now I just don't say a thing. I have enough ideas and ambition to drive myself plenty nuts. Madness and obsession are two things I don't need a helping hand with.

jules

07-06-2007, 01:57 AM

Captain Morgan

07-07-2007, 09:03 PM

TV/Radio/Newspaper ads, book signings, book tours ... they're a waste of time and money for a first novel.

I never quite grasped the whole booksigning issue myself. I only saw one book-signing in my life, and it was a disaster. Actually, it was a romance writer, who actually was somewhat famous (though not to me), and I thought it was rather embarrassing.

The poor woman was standing with a huge pile of her books on display at the hallway just outside the Cole's bookstore in the shopping mall. Not one person even gave her a glance as they walked by. I even observed her randomly approaching people as they strolled by... their response? They were brushing her off as though she was some telemarketing pest.

I later recognized her picture on one of her books, on a stand somewhere else. I can't remember if it was a Best Seller list, or not, but that brings up another issue I'm getting to...

I have been told that all new writers are EXPECTED to do booksignings these days. The publishers expect it and if you aren't willing, they wont even want to look at your manuscript. Or so I have been told.

It seems rather silly to me, since if even popular people can have disaster booksignings, how on earth is a pure nobody supposed to make these things work? Though I have to admit, it's the author wasting his/her time running around the countryside doing these booksignings, NOT the publisher, so I guess you can't blame them for forcing this on their writers?

aertep

07-07-2007, 10:03 PM

I never quite grasped the whole booksigning issue myself. I only saw one book-signing in my life, and it was a disaster. Actually, it was a romance writer, who actually was somewhat famous (though not to me), and I thought it was rather embarrassing.

The poor woman was standing with a huge pile of her books on display at the hallway just outside the Cole's bookstore in the shopping mall. Not one person even gave her a glance as they walked by. I even observed her randomly approaching people as they strolled by... their response? They were brushing her off as though she was some telemarketing pest.

I later recognized her picture on one of her books, on a stand somewhere else. I can't remember if it was a Best Seller list, or not, but that brings up another issue I'm getting to...

I have been told that all new writers are EXPECTED to do booksignings these days. The publishers expect it and if you aren't willing, they wont even want to look at your manuscript. Or so I have been told.

It seems rather silly to me, since if even popular people can have disaster booksignings, how on earth is a pure nobody supposed to make these things work? Though I have to admit, it's the author wasting his/her time running around the countryside doing these booksignings, NOT the publisher, so I guess you can't blame them for forcing this on their writers?

J.A. Konrath has an informative article in the June, 2007 "Writer's Digest" (yes, UJ, I still read it), called "Book-Signing Success." In it he gives many pointers on making these things work. I think Konrath is notoriously outgoing, one of those "popular people." It sounds like a lot of work, but we're used to work, aren't we?

I've attended one book signing, that of our own Maestrowork, at a large Borders in southern California. He recruited family members and friends and we sat around a table, asked questions and listened to him read. This attracted attention, as the Borders folks had given Maestro a table right by the front door. Strangers came to the table, Maestro signed and sold books, and it was a success.

If I ever do a tour, I will have to go to towns where I know people who will come and sit at my table. Either that or just bring an entourage.

aadams73

07-07-2007, 10:06 PM

I
I have been told that all new writers are EXPECTED to do booksignings these days. The publishers expect it and if you aren't willing, they wont even want to look at your manuscript. Or so I have been told.

Somebody has been lying to you. In fact Therese Fowler's (http://theresefowler.blogspot.com/) publisher was recently quite relieved when they realized she didn't expect to go on a book signing tour. And this is a lady who got a sizable advance and will have quite a few advertising $$ behind her.

Joni Holderman

07-07-2007, 10:38 PM

There's the Uncle Jim Undiluted thread, but more than that, there's a book that's in progress based on this thread. My beloved wife and co-author is whipping this raw material into shape. We'll see what comes of that.

Is it too early to place advance orders?? I would love, love, love to have a copy of an Uncle Jim book on writing.

James D. Macdonald

07-11-2007, 12:35 AM

I have been told that all new writers are EXPECTED to do booksignings these days. The publishers expect it and if you aren't willing, they wont even want to look at your manuscript. Or so I have been told.

Information like that comes from the literary equivalent of learning about sex by hanging around on streetcorners talking with the other kids who have never done it either.

Say the first word that comes to mind when I say:

Reclusive.

"Author," right?

Authors are frequently solitary, introverted, and not terribly socially ept. The only reason to do a signing is if you think it's fun. Signings are so notoriously ill-attended that there are cartoons: An author sitting behind a table with a pile of his books. The bookstore manager and no one else is present. The manager is talking: "Since it's only the two of us could you read my manuscript?"

The stories about how all authors are expected to go on tours, and how only Beautiful People who will Look Good on Morning Talk Shows can get book deals are just that: stories. Forget them. Go write a good book, then write another.

Niteowl

07-11-2007, 01:07 AM

Might I humbly add that when I attended a Terry Brooks signing, there were, say, forty or so people. And that's Terry Fricking Brooks. I suspect first time novelists and the like would have attendance much, much worse.

JoNightshade

07-11-2007, 01:15 AM

I went to a Ray Bradbury book signing last year and there were so many people that the overflow crowd (IE those who didn't show up an hour early) went out onto the sidewalk and into the middle of a busy street. They never even got inside the building...

But of course he's a notable exception. :)

Actually it's relieving to know I won't have to do signings, cuz I know nobody would show up. :)

James D. Macdonald

07-11-2007, 01:17 AM

A book signing, or a launch party, is a bit of a celebration for the author. Think of them as parties and you won't be disappointed. Think of them as Selling and you will be.

smsarber

07-11-2007, 01:23 AM

Now, I think that if you really, really want to havea booksigning, then it's just like real estate: location, location, location.
In your own home town you could find a perfect place with a little research.
I live in Missouri, and I know that in Webster Groves, Webster University, there are perfect small venues for a local "celeb" signing. The neo-beatniks are always looking for a local project to peruse, and even promote. I don't think signings are my boat, but I would assume that in an area saturated with college kids (and you would want to make it a fairly large University, the community college kids are spending all their money on their educations, the poor saps, ha-ha *) you could achieve, if nothing else, getting the word of your book out.
When my PA (gag,coff,gag,coff) poetry book came out, I didn't do a signing, but alot of aquaintences who go to Webster, and St. Louis U did at least ask a lot of questions about my book, and they seemed truly interested.

*the bigger universities have more kids riding along on Daddy's wallet, so they are more likely to buy your book.

Captain Morgan

07-11-2007, 01:30 AM

Well, that is a relief then I won't have to worry about doing any dud book signings.. I admit I am not much a people-person, and wouldn't know how to handle a lot of people/fan problems. Too many to list, though one story that I remember goes something like this:

You are signing the books, you have a whole display of books. Fan comes up to you, and she's so excited and happy to meet you. She claims she is your #1 fan. She has been waiting for a while in line, but tells you that she is a little short on money. But since she is your #1 fan, she couldn't resist trying to get an autographed book anyway (she is dying for it).

Now, considering this is your, ahem, #1 fan... And it is obvious you have a whole ton of books next to you, many of which will have covers torn off and mailed back to the publisher do you...

#1 Tell her no, she must pay. And end up looking like an asshole. Losing your #1 fan, etc.

#2 Decide to give in and give her a free signed copy... Then have the others in line go.. 'No why does THAT asshole get a free copy and yet I have to pay?'

Stijn Hommes

07-11-2007, 03:31 PM

Willowmound

07-11-2007, 03:37 PM

Wouldn't they have the book already if they were your number one fan?

JA Konrath

07-11-2007, 03:57 PM

Should you tour? I can't answer that question for you.

Will you sell more books if you tour? Yes.

The mega book tour, complete with standing-room-only fans and frequent TV appearances, only happens with huge bestsellers. It costs a lot of money (airfare, hotel, escorts, food, bookstore co-op) and it's impossible to recoop those costs. It's also exhausting.

A cheaper, but equally exhausting, alternative is drive-by signings, where you pop into the store, introduce yourself to interested staff members, and autograph stock.

Signed books have a better sell-through than unsigned books. They also get placed in prime locations that the publisher would otherwise have to pay for (end caps, face out, near the register, etc.)

Meeting booksellers is a wise idea--they can sell your books long after you've gone, often for years.

If your publisher is a good one, keeping them up to date with your touring efforts will likely impress them, which will lead to more marketing dollars next book.

I don't recommend being a reclusive author. Sure, some folks are successful without doing any kind of self-promotion. But the fact remains that the best salesperson for a book is the author.

Being able to speak in public will help your career. If you're afraid to do so, consider yourself lucky; overcoming a personal fear is one of life's greatest joys. Take a speech class, join Toastmasters, practice in front of a mirror.

Consider this: friends and family will automatically buy your book, and tell others about it. Every person you meet has the potential to become a friend and do the same thing. The more booksellers, librarians, reviewers, fans, and media folks that you meet, the better off you'll be. And when there are 40,000 new novels released each year, and only 1 out of 5 makes a profit (and even less remain in print,) it's in your best interest to self-promote.

But no one is forcing you to. No one is forcing you to be a writer, either.

Are there successful authors who don't do any sort of promotion? Sure there are.

You can also shoot yourself in the head and survive. That doesn't mean it was a good idea, just because you lived.

Niteowl

07-11-2007, 10:17 PM

Hi, This post is very informative, however I would like some specific information. If someone can help me then please send me a private message. Best Regards,

Uhm, spammer?

James D. Macdonald

07-11-2007, 10:26 PM

Spammer.

Stupid fool thought it would be a good idea to spam one of the threads one of the mods takes a personal interest in?

Bad idea.

(I edited your post to remove the links he was touting.)

aertep

07-11-2007, 10:54 PM

I'm glad to see you on the board, J.A. Konrath.

You guys might take a look at Konrath's article about book signings in the June Writer's Digest. It's an alternative perspective, it's positive, and it gives ideas on how you might do this with your own variations. (Although I'm not sure how good I'd be at approaching people, I could definitely do drive-by signings.)

Also, in the August issue, the first letter in Reader Mail is from a bookseller in Louisville who adds some good pointers.

JA Konrath

07-12-2007, 01:44 AM

I'm glad to see you on the board, J.A. Konrath.

I lurk. :)

An expanded version of that booktour article is posted in the Book Promotion thread.

James D. Macdonald

07-12-2007, 03:08 AM

Hi, J. A.

Your advice is good as far as it goes, but consider this: America is about 3,000 miles across. My driving range is about 200 miles. If I hit every single bookstore in my driving range it would be a fraction of a percent of all the bookstores in America.

Los Angeles alone has ten times more people than my entire state, and I'm not going to fly out to Los Angeles, rent a car, drive around to bookstores just to introduce myself, and so forth and so on.

And what do I do about my books for sale in Poland? I don't speak Polish and I sure can't afford to fly there just to drop by the bookstores.

Do it if it's fun, but don't go nuts if you can't -- or don't want to.

(BTW, it isn't true that only one in five books make a profit. It may be true that one in five earns royalties beyond the advance, but that's the way the system is designed to work. Publishers start making a profit long before the book earns out.)

Captain Morgan

07-12-2007, 04:40 AM

Actually, I have a good question for Jim...

My current novel I'm working on, is adult fiction. It has it's crime, violence, cheating, etc....

I have an older novel I want to dust off and complete too. This one is for children/young adult and is more of a philosophical nature.

Obviously, I plan to have a different Pen-Name for each. But here is the question... If I approach a publisher for the children's book after the adult is published (lets just assume I get lucky and the adult got published), would it be detrimental to mention this?

I had assumed that if a company knows I am already published and proven, then that would be a great boon. However, because of the vast change in genre, I may shoot myself in the foot by this perhaps? Maybe they are thinking, there's no way a person who writes THAT could do the other thing well. Or maybe they don't mind, but the fact it could come back to haunt them with other clients... I guess all sorts of things could happen, a big database of their buyers may be christian fanatics (add other extremists here), and they may cancel all their mass-orders if they found out so & so publishing is selling books from a deemed anti-christian writer, etc.

Maybe that's pushing it though. I'm curious if I'm just paranoid, and should by all means let them know of my other works, or not.

Toxic_Waste

07-12-2007, 05:03 AM

I really don't think that previous publishing credits are detrimental. To me, it just shows diversity of talent and a knack for appealing to various markets. I just had a publisher ask me to "pump up" my bio information to reflect all of my writing accomplishments, even though they were extremely different in nature.

The trick would be to focus mostly on any credentials you may have that would be of particular interest in whatever specific project you are prosposing.

James D. Macdonald

07-12-2007, 11:36 AM

Maybe that's pushing it though. I'm curious if I'm just paranoid, and should by all means let them know of my other works, or not.

I think you're just being paranoid. Your writing credits are to show that someone else thinks that you're writing at a professional level and is willing to bet money that total strangers will agree.

This is all assuming that the book sells to a decent market, of course. The credits that you're listing are your most recent and most prestigious. A string of 1/4 cent-a-word crudzines means that you're writing at that level and have been sucking bottom for a long time. That's more likely to fill an editor's heart with dread than someone with no credits at all, so I'd just leave them out. (I don't list my credits with "little and literary" magazines anywhere.)

There's no percentage in trying to game the system, though. Just tell the truth and go forward.

RG570

07-12-2007, 12:39 PM

This is all assuming that the book sells to a decent market, of course. The credits that you're listing are your most recent and most prestigious. A string of 1/4 cent-a-word crudzines means that you're writing at that level and have been sucking bottom for a long time. That's more likely to fill an editor's heart with dread than someone with no credits at all, so I'd just leave them out. (I don't list my credits with "little and literary" magazines anywhere.)

Okay, this is something I've been thinking about lately. Does this apply to small presses and electronic publishers? Will the "real" publishing industry shun you for having a novel out with a place like Mundania or Double Dragon to the point where you can't even mention it to them?

I mean, on one hand, I think to myself that it would only help one place the next novel with an agent, but on the other, maybe all it would do is lock you into the small press scene forever.

JA Konrath

07-12-2007, 07:52 PM

True, James. But with some time and some money, you can get to quite a few of them. In the past two years, a close author friend has visited over six hundred bookstores. I've been to over eight hundred different stores in two years.

You spend a lot of time writing a book. Why should you let its success or failure be determined by fate? The more booksellers you meet, the more books of yours they'll sell. Doesn't it make sense to invest in that?

Why wouldn't you travel to the West Coast and visit stores? Driving from Seattle to San Diego takes about ten days, and you can visit two hundred stores in that time. Depending on the number of friends you have in those areas who you could stay with, and if you use your own car, the cost can be quite low.

And while publishers can earn a profit before the book earns out, I've been told by several bigshot editors (over cocktails) that out of every five books published, two lose money, two break even, two make a profit. We weren't talking about royalties.

I would guess that the percentage of books that earn out and pay royalties are much fewer than 1 out of 5. Out of twenty or so thriller authors who I'm chummy enough to talk about money with, I'm the only one who has earned out.

Interesting that I'm also the only one of two who visits a lot of bookstores. The other author who visits that many bookstores earns ten times what I do per book, and is a bestseller.

Again, no one is forcing anyone to spend all of their time promoting. I didn't become a writer because I wanted to travel all the time. I certainly don't enjoy it.

I consider self-promotion to be an investment. A stitch in time saving nine. I don't want any book I've written to die a quiet death because no one knows it exists.

Can my efforts make a big enough impact in my sales to matter? Not directly. Let's say I fly to LA and visit the 40 bookstores in the area. Let's say it cost about $500 to do so.

To make back my money investment I'd have to sell 166 hardcovers (assuming the royalty is $3 each.) That's a lot of books.

Depending on how good your distribution is, and how many books of yours are still in print, you perhaps would sign anywhere from 40 to 200 hardcovers, plus a few hundred paperbacks.

Chances are, you won't. Some of the books you signed won't sell--they'll still be returned. And even if your publisher pays for the trip, we aren't taking into account your substantial time investment.

But immediate sales are only the direct, tangible effects. The intangibles are the important ones.

Becoming friends with a motivated bookseller is worth a lot. I know a dozen booksellers who have each handsold hundreds of my books. In some locations, they've sold as many as six hundred copies. How much is that worth?

I know over a hundred other booksellers who have handsold smaller, but still substantial, numbers.

Plus, these booksellers put me face-out on endcaps without my publisher paying coop. They pimp my books to reading groups and book clubs, and write about them in their newsletters. They invite me to speak at their sales meeting and conventions---I get these gigs from booksellers I've met, not through my publisher.

Add in the snowball effect---each handsold book reaches a reader who becomes a lifelong fan, buying many books and telling their friends and family about me, and suddenly the one week/$500 investment seems a lot smarter than a newspaper ad or printing up a bunch of bookmarks.

James D. Macdonald

07-13-2007, 12:04 AM

I don't recommend newspaper ads or printing up bookmarks, either.

smsarber

07-13-2007, 12:29 AM

JA Konrath

07-13-2007, 12:38 AM

I don't recommend newspaper ads or printing up bookmarks, either.

Ads don't sell books. If you're a huge bestseller, ads are announcements that a new book is available, alerting the established fanbase. For new authors, they're a waste.

Bookmarks on their own are worthless. Handing a bookmark to a person after telling them about your book gives the prospective buyer something to look at, and possibly keep and use. But the meeting is more important than the bookmark.

If you want to sell books, figure out why you buy books. Think of the last ten books you bought, and your reasons for buying them.

I've bought books because they were recommended to me, because I know or have previously read the author, as gifts, when I see an author speak, or if I have read a review that tells me this is the sort of book I'd enjoy (it doesn't matter if the review was good or bad.) I also buy books by browsing and researching topics I enjoy.

I've never bought because of an ad, or some giveaway item. I have plenty of free pens with book titles on them. Love the pens, never bought the books they're advertising.

Advertising advocates will say that ads don't sell directly, but they are part of an indirect buzz that makes people aware the books exists. I disagree. We're so bombarded with ads, we ignore them. No one likes ads. We glance past them in newspapers, skip over them on Tivo, and forget billboards two seconds after we pass them on the highway. What was the last billboard you saw? If you remember it, did it make you buy what it advertised? How much do you think those things cost?

That's why I'm all for touring.

JA Konrath

07-13-2007, 12:43 AM

"And while publishers can earn a profit before the book earns out, I've been told by several bigshot editors (over cocktails) that out of every five books published, two lose money, two break even, two make a profit. We weren't talking about royalties."

But wouldn't that be six?
On the subject of what to tell a publisher, editor, etc... I will personally never tell any of them that I had a book published by PA. Some things are better left unsaid.

You're right. It should have said "one makes a profit." And the one that makes a profit isn't the megabestseller. At least, not at first. Publishers make money on their backlist titles--the ones that keep selling, year after year. A backlist title doesn't require upfront costs (editing, typesetting, cover design, marketing, advertising, coop.)

Dave.C.Robinson

07-13-2007, 01:07 AM

All forms of author contact make a difference. I bought Joshua Palmatier's and Kat Richardson's first books because I met them at a Con. I bought The Land of Mist and Snow because it's in Uncle Jim's sig. which made me aware of it.

Anonymity is the greatest foe any author will ever face.

NicoleMD

07-13-2007, 01:31 AM

You're right. It should have said "one makes a profit." And the one that makes a profit isn't the megabestseller. At least, not at first. Publishers make money on their backlist titles--the ones that keep selling, year after year. A backlist title doesn't require upfront costs (editing, typesetting, cover design, marketing, advertising, coop.)

What is considered break-even, I wonder? +/- $1000? $10,000? Does it include salaries of the publishers? If everyone's had a chance to fatten their bellies a bit, then I'd call it a success from a business standpoint.

(This is my first Uncle Jim post, though I've spent many hours here, so Hello UJ! :). Thanks for all the help!)

Nicole

smsarber

07-13-2007, 01:34 AM

Anonymity is the greatest foe any author will ever face.

It is my goal to be remembered and noticed. Anonymity is only useful when dealing with AA. They always say there is no such thing as bad publicity, and I tend to agree. That is why I tell people about my battle with alcoholism, my time in prison. I am not ashamed of my past, and people tend to remember meeting me.

Captain Morgan

07-13-2007, 01:50 AM

They always say there is no such thing as bad publicity,

I know a lot of people who claim this too. They also love going on the Jerry Springer show...

James D. Macdonald

07-13-2007, 02:30 AM

True: Obscurity is a far greater problem for authors than piracy will ever be.

Meanwhile:

The reasons people buy books:

#1: Read and enjoyed another book by the same author.
#2: Recommended by a trusted friend.

All the other reasons fade into single-digit percentages.

That's why I say that the best way to promote your book is to write and publish another book.

smsarber

07-13-2007, 02:41 AM

Well, don't look for ME on Springer. Maybe Oprah's Book Club one day....

And if I could be self-serving for a moment; I am going in for a major surgery on friday the 20th. They will be removing a large (12 cm.) mass from my right lung. It's dead tissue as a result of embolisms, and an abcess. No cancer, or anything like that. But if any of you would mind saying a small prayer for myself and my family, I would greatly appreciate it.

Ken Schneider

07-13-2007, 04:10 AM

I think it would cost you more to drive around to bookstores than you would profit from the book sales.

Write a good book and it'll sell.

JA Konrath

07-13-2007, 07:58 AM

That's why I say that the best way to promote your book is to write and publish another book.

That's true only you get a chance to publish another book. If your first book doesn't do well enough, book #2 won't sell.

Book #1 will only benefit from book #2 if book #1 is still in print.

Good, free advertising is selling short stories and articles. You reach new audiences, and people who like your writing will seek you out. I've bought many books by new authors after reading shorts by them.

JA Konrath

07-13-2007, 08:06 AM

I think it would cost you more to drive around to bookstores than you would profit from the book sales.

Write a good book and it'll sell.

"Good" is subjective. Getting published means getting the right book in front of the right publisher at the right time. There is no universal indicator of talent. Publishers think the books they buy are good, yet many disagree, and most lose money.

And as I previously mentioned, you don't immediately recoup your investment on tours. That's not the reason you should tour.

Berry

07-13-2007, 10:46 AM

I've bought many books by new authors after reading shorts by them.

The thing is, you aren't a typical customer. Neither am I. Extrapolating the behavior of the general book buying public from our own experience is fraught with danger. The average book buyer is more like a guy in Wal-Mart looking at the rack of books thinking "Should I buy this here book by Jim MacDonald, I like his stuff, or this one by some Konrath fellow, or hell, get me a six-pack and a DVD."

James D. Macdonald

07-13-2007, 11:01 AM

That's true only you get a chance to publish another book. If your first book doesn't do well enough, book #2 won't sell.

The real gap is with book #3. Book #1 goes out, and it sells what it sells. Book #2 goes out, and you hope it sells better than #1. If it doesn't ... that's when there isn't a book #3 and you have to go to a pseudonym.

Book #1 will only benefit from book #2 if book #1 is still in print.

Write a book a year and this isn't a problem. The other nice thing about putting out books on a regular basis is that when the new book comes out the publisher will often reprint and resolicit your backlist.

Good, free advertising is selling short stories and articles. You reach new audiences, and people who like your writing will seek you out. I've bought many books by new authors after reading shorts by them.

Sure, if you're the multi-talented guy who can write shorts as well as novels. It's as much work to sell a short as a novel, though, and there aren't as many markets. But yes, people who like your short stories will seek out your novels. A short story is less of an investment in a reader's time, so readers are more willing to give a new author a try.

(And if you subscribe to Fantasy and Science Fiction (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/B00006KDW3/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) now, you'll be certain to get my next short story ... coming soon!)

(Or, go to my webpage and read some of my stories absolutely free. (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/L_queenmirror.htm))

JA Konrath

07-13-2007, 08:21 PM

The thing is, you aren't a typical customer. Neither am I. Extrapolating the behavior of the general book buying public from our own experience is fraught with danger. The average book buyer is more like a guy in Wal-Mart looking at the rack of books thinking "Should I buy this here book by Jim MacDonald, I like his stuff, or this one by some Konrath fellow, or hell, get me a six-pack and a DVD."

Yes and no.

I buy a lot of books. But I also meet a lot of readers. And I often ask them why they buy books, or how they heard of certain books.

I've done several experiments on my blog, asking readers why they buy, and getting people to hang out in bookstores and observe buying habits.

I've found there's no 'average' book buyer, but several different kinds of buyer, who buy books for different reasons. As authors, we need to figure out which group we want to reach, and how to reach them.

James D. Macdonald

07-13-2007, 09:01 PM

As authors, we need to figure out which group we want to reach, and how to reach them.

I really have to disagree. As authors we need to write the best books we can.

If you want to understand "giving the reader something on page one that makes him want to turn to page two" as marketing, well, yes, that's an author's job. If you want to understand "give the reader a last chapter that's so strong he wants to run out and get your next book," as marketing, that's a good way to look at it.

Any other marketing we do is invisible if the publisher isn't already doing its job. As far as running around to bookstores takes time and energy away from writing, it's counterproductive.

Do I do signings? Heck yeah. Most recent one was this last Sunday (and my book sold out, thank you very much). But selling eight, ten, twenty, forty books here and there ... I also saw a couple of movies while I was down there and ate some Indian food (the town where I live is so rural and remote that it's an hour's hard drive to the nearest stoplight), and that was the real purpose and the highlight of the weekend. Getting out of the house.

==========

Everyone: Go here: http://www.lulu.com/content/219003 Buy a copy of my book.

JA Konrath

07-14-2007, 01:25 AM

I really have to disagree. As authors we need to write the best books we can.

Of course we do. But it's a lousy keymaker who creates a key without considering the lock first.

That wasn't the point of my quote, though. After you write a book, and you're promoting it, there are different catagories of buyers. For example, when I speak at a mystery bookstore, it's a much different crowd than speaking at a literary festival.

Book readers fit into catagories. Die hard buyers, who read everything. Casual readers, who read a few books a year on vacation. Gift buyers. Johnny-come-latelys. Booksellers. People who never go into bookstores. These are all groups to target, and all should be approached in different ways.

Any other marketing we do is invisible if the publisher isn't already doing its job. As far as running around to bookstores takes time and energy away from writing, it's counterproductive.

Your publisher is your business partner, not your boss. You're both responsibly for marketing.

You can write a great book, with great distibution and a decent marketing campaign, and it can still slip through the cracks. The more people you reach to tell about the book, the better off you are. And it's possible to reach a lot of people on your own.

No one mentioned marketing at the expense of writing. Marketing is what happens after you've written a great book.

The more promotion you do, the more books you'll sell, the more you'll strengthen your brand. You can have a zillion legitimate reasons not to do any sort of promotion. Numbers don't care about your reasons. Neither do publishers when they're looking to buy books.

James D. Macdonald

07-14-2007, 02:21 AM

Kristin Landon

07-14-2007, 03:52 AM

If it's fun for you, if you enjoy gladhanding, more power to you. It isn't a requirement.

And some of us are reeeallllly glad of that.

I'm not good at glad-handing, and I can't write a book a year and work full-time if I'm also driving up and down the coast visiting bookstores. Not to mention the piteous cries of the children starving at home.

My agent, who should know, gave me the same advice: Write another good book, and don't worry about the rest of it.

JA Konrath

07-14-2007, 05:17 AM

Let's just agree to disagree about this.

Selling an extra 500 books is a 1% difference when you're moving 50,000.

Visiting bookstores in New York makes no difference to my sales in California, nor to my sales in Oregon. But I'd better have sales in California and Oregon, too, or I'm out of business.

If it's fun for you, if you enjoy gladhanding, more power to you. It isn't a requirement.

I'm happy to disagree, but you seem to be devalueing the importance of promotion without addressing the positive effects, both tangible and intangible, that it produces.

The more you promote, the more books you'll sell, the more interviews you'll get, the more media exposure you'll receive, the more events you'll be invited to speak at, and the more your publisher will get behind your books.

Incidentally, local sales do matter to chains, which track sales. Selling well in one region can result in a nationwide larger order. This has happened for me, several times.

Promotion isn't fun. Writing is fun. Promotion allows me to keep writing. The best book in the world won't sell a single copy if nobody ever hears about it. Part of my job is getting people to hear about it.

James D. Macdonald

07-14-2007, 11:05 AM

The best book in the world won't sell a single copy if nobody ever hears about it. Part of my job is getting people to hear about it.

Look at all those self-published guys with double-digit sales. That's what author-promotion without publisher-promotion gets.

Getting more interviews and getting invited to speak at more places don't strike me as major inducements. I did a four-state seven-city tour once. Never again. I'll schedule elective oral surgery instead.

JA Konrath

07-14-2007, 11:13 PM

Look at all those self-published guys with double-digit sales. That's what author-promotion without publisher-promotion gets.

No, that's what lousy distribution and no pre-orders gets you. Many books with major publishers die on the shevles, even with promotion. Self-published books never even get on the shelves.

Getting more interviews and getting invited to speak at more places don't strike me as major inducements. I did a four-state seven-city tour once. Never again. I'll schedule elective oral surgery instead.

I'm sorry you had a negative experience, Jim.

I just got back from 8 days in Italy, with my family. My publisher brought us there, and they paid for everything. I wouldn't have an Italian publisher if it wasn't for meeting them while touring the US.

I've been invited to speak in New York by Google, I've been featured in Forbes, and I've gotten free rides to over a dozen conferences, book festivals, and conventions. Not because my publisher set these things up. But because these people contacted me, having heard about my promo efforts or having met me on the road.

I was recently invited to a major chain store regional meeting. I was the sole author there, and I spoke for forty minutes to a group of 250 bookstore general managers, along with some higher ups including the vice president of the company. How much is that worth?

I've had well over a hundred interviews, newspaper, radio, web--again, my efforts, not my publicist's efforts.

My publisher is behind me, but the more I do, the more they do. For my first book, they printed up promo material, had a big launch party at BEA, and made sure my books were in the stores. But they forbade me from touring, because a publisher must pay a store coop money when the author does a signing, They figured I was a new author, and I couldn't sell enough books to justify the coop cost, so they told me I couldn't do any signings.

I did signings anyway, calling them 'drop-ins' instead of official signings, then staying for six hours and handselling hardcovers. Success at one store led to invites from others, which eventually led to the DM of a chain calling me up and inviting me to over a dozen stores. The increased sales in these stores made a blip on the inventory radar, leading to increased sales nationwide in this chain.

For book #2, my publisher toured me. 11 cities. That wouldn't have happened if not for my success with book #1. I used the rental car and dropped in an additional 95 stores, in between interviews and official signings.

For book #3, my publisher paid all expenses for me to visit 618 stores. I met over 1300 bookstore employees. Shook their hands. Pitched my series to them. Gave them free signed books. Then I thanked each, by name, in the acknowledgments of book #4. How much is that worth?

For book #4, my publisher has received it's biggest preorder ever. They're dumping all of their marketing dollars into front-of-store coop and discounts.

I'm just a midlist mystery author. But I've earned out my advance on my first 3 book, six figure contract, and my brand is growing.

I think self-promotion had a little something to do with it.

Can everyone do the same thing I did? No. But the fact remains, the more promotion you do, the more books you'll sell, the more good things that happen.

As writers, we get paid for our words. We're paid, because publishers sell our words to readers. If the readers don't buy our books, the publishers will stop paying us.

It is obviously in an author's best interest to help those books sell.

Captain Morgan

07-15-2007, 04:01 AM

Look at all those self-published guys with double-digit sales. That's what author-promotion without publisher-promotion gets.

This makes me think of those PA guys who haven't even broken the double-digit sales. Except for the rare occasion a few people accidently misclicked while shopping online at amazon. :P

James D. Macdonald

07-16-2007, 01:41 AM

I'm just a midlist mystery author. But I've earned out my advance on my first 3 book, six figure contract, and my brand is growing.

I think self-promotion had a little something to do with it.

Well, I'm just a mid-list SF/fantasy author, and you know my attitude toward self-promotion. I'd rather drive a spike through my hand than do most of that stuff you've listed as Good Things ... and you know what? My results are about the same as yours, as far as selling and earning out.

So no, I don't see self-promotion as having all that much to do with it.

Self-promotion: People who do it well and enjoy it should do it. People who don't do it well but enjoy it shouldn't do it. People who do it well but don't enjoy it shouldn't do it. People who don't do it well and don't enjoy it definitely shouldn't do it.

JA Konrath

07-17-2007, 03:14 AM

Self-promotion: People who do it well and enjoy it should do it. People who don't do it well but enjoy it shouldn't do it. People who do it well but don't enjoy it shouldn't do it. People who don't do it well and don't enjoy it definitely shouldn't do it.

Shouldn't people try it, rather than be discouraged from trying it?

And like all skills, isn't it possible to improve at public speaking and promoting?

I have a friend who doesn't brush his teeth. He's never had a cavity. But it simply isn't good advice to tell others not to brush their teeth, even if it worked for him.

Brushing reduces cavities. Promotion sells books.

JoNightshade

07-17-2007, 03:37 AM

Okay, you guys have both made your points admirably. Anyone else who is reading will certainly be making an informed decision. So let's call this the end and talk about something else before it devolves into meaningless similes. :)

allenparker

07-17-2007, 06:16 PM

I understand the following from this discussion:

1. A book needs promotion to sell.
2. The publisher better be promoting the book if it is to sell.
3. An author can help with sales.
4. No amount of author promotion will save a book from a poor publisher.
5. Authors with platforms should utilize them to help the publisher.
6. Authors with no platform can have fun with book signings, but shouldn't quit their job to start a whirlwind Book Tour.
7. Eat chocolate whenever possible.

Okay, so I didn't get number seven from the discussion, but it is still good advice.

Dave.C.Robinson

07-17-2007, 07:20 PM

After taking a good look at this discussion, here's what I came up with: while promotion can be of great benefit, a writer's primary function is to write. Once a book is out you're as much promoting the next book as this one. If promotion interferes with writing you're putting your foot in your mouth then shooting yourself in the foot.

Writers write. Promoters promote. If you have to pick between them choose the one that everything else depends on. If you're not writing you won't have anything to promote.

I'm going to make an addendum to what Allen Parker said, and recommend the consumption of mass quantities of coffee.

anodyne

07-18-2007, 01:44 AM

Tea is better for you than coffee. I think there's been enough time since Boston Harbor, the tea tax and the stamp act to switch back to the one that balances the massive over-productivity of caffeine with the focusing abilities of other chemical compounds. Don't you?

P.S. Wouldn't a tea vs. coffee debate be so much more fun than a book signing one?

allenparker

07-18-2007, 01:48 AM

Meerkat

07-18-2007, 02:42 AM

Dave.C.Robinson

07-18-2007, 03:11 AM

Here's my idiotic question, which I'm sure everyone on this site except me understands already: Why exactly is it that it would be considered a conflict of interest for an agent to represent a book he or she has also worked on (edited or perhaps even coauthored)? Wouldn't this be simply vested interest rather than any sort of conflict? Wouldn't they actually perform a more energetic job marketing such an item?

The conflict of interest doesn't come from editing or even co-authoring the work. The conflict of interest is based on where the money comes from. If I send a manuscript to Agent of Shield and they edit it heavily, then go out and sell it to Big Name Publisher and collect their commission for that it's all peachy. The problem, and the conflict of interest, comes in if they want to charge me money for editing the book.

Let's say that a bill comes up and Agent of Shield suddenly needs new tires for the Helicarrier. Now if they're charging me for editing, they can simply tell me the book needs another edit, and get the money for new tires that way, rather than pound the pavement a little harder to see if Bigger Name Publisher might buy the book instead.

As you can see from the above, the conflict of interest comes in when the agent has a clear financial benefit for not doing their job. Helicarrier tires are expensive. It's easier for an agent to charge for editing than to get a publisher to buy a book. Again the insidious part is that the agent gets paid for doing the opposite of their job.

In that case the agent benefits from selling or not selling, and has to balance the larger profit from selling against the easier money from editing.

Now if the Agent edits without a fee and sells the book, you're fine. That's because the free edits have taken time and effort, which the agent can't recoup unless they do sell the book. Here they're rewarded for selling.

Editing's fine, charging for editing's not.

Meerkat

07-18-2007, 06:01 PM

Wow, never even thought of that! Thanks, Dave, for taking the time to explain this one to me! (And good luck with that helicarrier of yours)

James D. Macdonald

07-18-2007, 07:15 PM

There are also agents who are in cahoots with " professional editors." They recommend that you get your book "professionally edited," and supply their chum's name. The "professional editor" sends a kickback.

See, for example, the Edit Ink (http://www.sfwa.org/beware/Editink.html) affair.

Meerkat

07-18-2007, 07:28 PM

Thanks Uncle Jim. I did know about those...creatures...and to beware. It was the arrangement of a legitimate agent himself or herself being involved in the project that confused me.

anodyne

07-22-2007, 03:11 PM

<bounces in Uncle Jim's lap>

I'd like a pony...

and...

a Barbie Safari jeep...

and...

a bead set...

and...

a creepy crawlers gross out treats factory and... <twirls a pigtail innocently>

another assignment and some lessons? When you're not too busy. Oh! And Peace on earth.

<nods>

Just Mike

07-23-2007, 06:05 PM

(said the lurker from his piteous corner).

Oh, and as it seems to be a tradition in these h'yar parts (dialect, ick!) (parentheses, ick!) I'd like to thank Uncle Jim. Seriously, my WIP would be shorter by about, um, most of it if this forum didn't exist. So thank you. Very shortly I'm gonna send it out 'til hell won't take it.

I'd love to be able to ask a noob question to brighten your day, but it seems you've answered most every one in the course of this thread. Bravo.

James D. Macdonald

07-23-2007, 06:32 PM

Here are some notes on Point of View: Site link removed per request of other site's Webmaster

This is, dare I say it, from the point of view of a filmmaker, but all the arts are related, and the story-telling arts more closely so.

Anodyne, have you been a good little girl? Did you eat all your vegetables? Did you write at least two pages of original prose fiction today? Very well!

Your assignment is to pick up a magazine that you've never previously read, preferably in a genre you don't like, find a short story, and read it from beginning to end.

Then go to your public library, find a novel in that same genre, and read it from beginning to end.

The reason for the short story is to give you an idea of the reading protocols for the novel.

Now: what worked, and what didn't, in that novel, and why?

Or:

If this is too onerous (or if you really, really want that creepy crawlers gross-out treats factory), go to a video-rental store. Get a movie you've never seen before (or read any reviews of). Watch it with the sound off. (Films with subtitles don't count.)

Now write a short story based on the story you think you just saw. You have a week for 6,000 words.

If you're a natural novelist, write a novel instead. You have three months.

Let me know when you've done it....

javili

07-29-2007, 09:00 PM

A novel is: A book length work of realistic prose fiction.

A romance is: A book length prose narrative treating imaginary characters

?????????????? So "novels" have to have actual people in them?

Niteowl

08-02-2007, 11:21 PM

Hullo Uncle Jim!

I've read through the Condensed Uncle Jim thread, and have a quick question for you about the whole Celtic Knots advice.

Am I to apply the Celtic knots to my characters? That is, try and have them pop up fairly regularly so that the reader doesn't forget them? Or is there a deeper meaning there: like, does it apply to revealing character, advancing plot, and supporting theme?

SpookyWriter

08-04-2007, 11:57 PM

?????????????? So "novels" have to have actual people in them?Define "actual".

James D. Macdonald

08-06-2007, 07:40 AM

For Celtic Knotwork, I'm not necessarily talking about characters. I'm talking about themes, I'm talking about moving foreground to background and back.

It's partly mechanical, it's partly as a reminder that things have to change, partly because readers have constantly moving focus of attention.

Mostly, though, it's (one of the many) ways I Do Things. If it's useful to you, if it helps you get a grasp on your plot -- then that's good. If it isn't useful, move on to another mode of construction.

Ava Jarvis

08-20-2007, 12:31 PM

Hello Uncle Jim and all,

You know, I must have run into the water cooler quite a bit earlier than I thought I did, because I remember Uncle Jim's advice for odd books to read. And I did read them (I liked Logical Chess, because every time I read it, I become very buff in my chess skillz, but then it evaporates and I need to read it again). I'm probably going to pick up the magic book again, because I think I understand more now....

I'm working my way backwards through this wonderful thread.

And I ran across something I'd forgotten, which is the power of the complete rewrite; pick up your first draft and then type it all back in again, adapting as you go. Or even, in my case, putting the first draft somewhere else and rewriting from scratch, with vague memories to guide me. At this point I would be preaching to the choir, but the power was demonstrated to me quite clearly at one point... which was during a timed contest in high school. So maybe this will be useful to somebody else.

Once upon a time, four student writers (very good, though I question the inclusion of me sometimes still) went into a room, were handed an essay topic, and in two hours each was expected to generate ten pages of prose on it. The best got a neat certificate and some money. Unfortunately, the topic was something I hated---politics. Specifically, something about dealing with violence in America. And yet here I was---locked room, buzzing fluorescent lights, two hours, ten pages.

After the first hour, my approach dead-ended. Completely. I could continue it maybe as a cliche, but I knew it was dead in the water. The clock was ticking. The others were so heads-down... the nightmares of exam times struck me all at once. I desperately thought back to some of the more avant garde texts we'd read in literature, that were about politics yet that I didn't hate and actually finished. A bit of Mark Twain, for instance. Something reversed, perverse, tongue in cheek. 15 minutes of cold sweat passed as I tried to rework my current article. Only 45 minutes left. So I made a last-ditch effort of insanity.

I threw away all my old work and restarted.

I burned---oh how I burned---through text as quickly as I could. I forced my way over all the horrible little bumps, because there just wasn't any time. I made it through all the way to the bell. I handed it in, and thought, crap, what a mess of it, and was depressed in the way only teenagers can be for the whole weekend and then some.

A week later I found out I won.

(Mind you, a similar Twain approach killed my AP test score for English; complete big fat zero, tanked everything else including my outstanding grammar/reading/etc scores, resulting in two years of remedial english/lit classes in college. Which just goes to show that sometimes you just suck. Anyways....)

The certificate was lost, the money was soon spent, but the lesson remained. And until recently I'd forgotten it.

How I do love writing. I'd forgotten. How could I forget. I feel possessed. I know I don't have what it takes, but by darn it, I will take it and grab it and make it mine. I will make quality if I can. Maybe I never had it and will never get it, maybe I will fail horribly, maybe I will inflict all kinds of pain on slush readers, but at least I will go out blazing.

Anyways. Many thanks to you, Uncle Jim and the others. I will learn a lot here. You all inspire me. :e2grouphu I will keep reading and keep the faith....

I will write, and write, and write, and write.... okay, now I'll stop writing here and go write for real.

aertep

08-26-2007, 12:30 AM

Hey Uncle Jim and all,

I finished my novel. First book, third draft.

It feels finished, anyway. There will be beta reads, tweaks, time on the shelf and a polish. I don't know what else. But I want to thank you because this thread has been such a help, even when I've had to stay away (even that little bit of advice called BIC came from here).

Thank you, Jim and all.

Petrea

Mitch Wagner

08-26-2007, 12:36 AM

Congratulations!

wayndom

08-26-2007, 07:58 AM

on backups--I think I did mention on another thread--that I use one disk per day (3.5) so I have a Mon. disk, a Tues. disk, etc. And my Corel WP backs up automatically every 3 min. Once a week I back up my entire writing folder to CD

Sounds good, but I used to do the same, and found that 3.5 floppies are very prone to damage, even when carefully placed in a protective case.

I've stopped using floppies altogether (too many perfectly good floppies would suddenly become corrupted for no apparent reason), and now back up to a stand-alone HD (picked up a 160 gig for $60) with a USB connection and, more importantly (since, as any computer professional will tell you, "Your hard drive will fail"), a "thumb drive," one of those flash drives that plugs into the USB port and hangs on my keyring when not in use. Nothing beats saving to CD, though.

Ava Jarvis

08-26-2007, 09:04 AM

Nothing beats saving to CD, though.

Saving to Amazon S3 does. So far I have been paying maybe 5 cents a month for storage and transfer, access from anywhere, all encrypted, and things don't get lost.

Jungle Disk mounts your S3 bucket like a real drive:

http://www.jungledisk.com/

Runs on anything: Windows, Mac OS X, Linux.... and has a USB keychain version.

I tell Scrivener to make a backup there and it does so without blinking an eye.

aertep

08-26-2007, 09:24 AM

Congratulations!

Thanks, Mitch.

James D. Macdonald

08-28-2007, 09:53 PM

I'm working my way backwards through this wonderful thread.

Thank you, and you're quite welcome.

And I ran across something I'd forgotten, which is the power of the complete rewrite; pick up your first draft and then type it all back in again, adapting as you go....

I burned---oh how I burned---through text as quickly as I could.

...

How I do love writing. I'd forgotten. How could I forget. I feel possessed.

You have to love it. Make it burn, light your world. That's the joy. That's what this art is all about. Publishing? Pfah! Nice, but not the biggest reward.

(Oh -- and I recall my AP History exam back in High School, where the essay question was on the outcome of WWII, and I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that the sole unique outcome of WWII was the composition of the song "Dirty Gertie from Bizerte." During the course of the essay I quoted most of the lyrics. (Dirty Gertie, among her other adventures, hid a mousetrap 'neath her skirtie, baited it with fleur-de-flirtie, made her boyfriends' fingers hurtie, and made her boyfriends most alertie. (She was voted, in Bizerte, 'Miss Latrine' for 1930.) I got an 800.....)

Hey Uncle Jim and all,

I finished my novel. First book, third draft.

Woo hoo! Go, you!

Go, have a pizza! See a movie! Have a long chat with a friend! ... And write the first chapter for your next book.

Congratulations!

Mitch, I see you've been a member here for two years, and I see your first post has been in this thread. I am honored.

Sounds good, but I used to do the same, and found that 3.5 floppies are very prone to damage, even when carefully placed in a protective case.

and

Saving to Amazon S3 does. So far I have been paying maybe 5 cents a month for storage and transfer, access from anywhere, all encrypted, and things don't get lost.

Save, save, save. Every day. And save some more.

The thing that I find is the absolute best, though, is Save to Paper. Hardcopy has some real advantages....

Oh--and how I spent my morning. Sitting in my favorite coffee shop (Le Rendezvous, in downtown Colebrook) going over the galleys for "Philologos; or, A Murder in Bistrita" coming soon (probably December) in Fantasy and Science Fiction (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/B00006KDW3/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) (Subscribe now! Don't miss a single thrilling issue!)

First paragraph (I'm really happy with it):

William Sharps (Ph.D., Harvard, 1844) sat in the dining room of the Coroana de Aur hotel in Bistrita and listened to two men plotting to kill him.

Bayou Bill

08-28-2007, 10:44 PM

(Oh -- and I recall my AP History exam back in High School, where the essay question was on the outcome of WWII, and I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that the sole unique outcome of WWII was the composition of the song "Dirty Gertie from Bizerte." During the course of the essay I quoted most of the lyrics. (Dirty Gertie, among her other adventures, hid a mousetrap 'neath her skirtie, baited it with fleur-de-flirtie, made her boyfriends' fingers hurtie, and made her boyfriends most alertie. (She was voted, in Bizerte, 'Miss Latrine' for 1930.) I got an 800.....)
You are right, of course, but only up to a point. There can be no question that "Dirty Gerite from Bizerte" is a song among songs. However (and IMHO) it's impossible to overlook Hoagy Carmichael's immortal contribution to the war effort,

"I'm a Cranky Old Yank in a Clanky Old Tank on the Streets of Yokohama with my Honolulu Mama Doin’ Those Beat-o, Beat-o Flat-On-My-Seat-o, Hirohito Blues"

Respectfully submitted,

Bayou Bill :cool:

Mitch Wagner

08-28-2007, 10:53 PM

I'm honored to be here, Jim. Really.

If this is my second post, I ought to introduce myself. And then I'll talk about my current challenge in my novel-in-progress.

As you know, Jim, but others here don't, my career is as a writer, specifically tech journalism. I write a lot for work every day, I write a little on Internet discussion forums too, and when all that's done, I haven't had time or energy for fiction. Even though I've dreamed of being a science-fiction writer since I was about 11 years old.

But lately I've had more discipline. I've turned out four short stories and novelettes in the past two or three years. Until recently, I've been submitting them fairly conscientiously. But my experience being rejected -- and, more importantly, other people's experience -- has discouraged me from shorter lengths. There just isn't a market for it. More importantly, there just isn't a READERSHIP for it. Some people write to get their names on books. Some people love writing. I write to be read.

So now I'm working on a novel. I'm about 34,000 words in. I've finally found a system that seems to work: Don't outline, don't worry about planning ahead, just sit and write. Every day. 250 words a day.

I find that having a do-able quota for word-count is absolute magic. It's the best thing I could do to make myself produce fiction. Because it gets to be a habit.

Jerry Seinfeld, the comedian, had a great tip for this kind of thing. He tells up-and-coming comedians they have to write, and have to do it every day. (Stand-up comedy is a form of writing -- who knew?) He says you should get a paper calendar, put it on the wall, mark a red X every day
you write. Eventually you will have a row of red Xes. The row will get to be quite long. And you won't want to skip a day writing, because you won't want to break up that row, and have a white space interrupting that long row of red Xes.

And that works for me. I don't have an actual calendar, but I visualize one. And sometimes it does get to be 9 pm or 10 pm and I still haven't done my writing for the day, and I think about blowing it off, but then I think about breaking up the row of red Xes and I say to myself, "Come on, you don't want to break up the row of red Xes. And it's only 250 words." And I sit down and do my 250 words that day.

That's another thing that contributes to the magic: 250 words isn't much. A guy like me can do that in a few minutes. This post, up until the preceding paragraph, was more than twice as long as that.

I don't know where I came up with the figure 250 words a day, but I do know that it was Cory Doctorow's quota while he had a full-time job that he traveled the world for. So it works. He turned out a mess of acclaimed short fiction and one or two novels on that system.

My biggest problem as a fiction writer is that I have no confidence. I think everything I write is crap. I'm currently in a patch of novel that I think is particularly craptacular. My solution in the past would be to "put it aside," which is a euphemism for giving up. But now, my solution is: Write it out.

My two immediate problems:

I think I may have too many redundant characters. Four of them, who all seem to tell the hero what he needs to know, and tell him what to do (which he either obeys or doesn't). I was able to articulate that problem to myself a week or so ago, and I realized immediately that the four characters serve very different *emotional* purposes for the hero: One is his only friend, one is his love interest, one is his mentor, and one is ... well, he's a new friend, and I may end up getting rid of him because he really *is* redundant - but on the other hand, he's a really neat character, so I'm inclined to keep him around anyway.

The other problem I have is that I'm afraid the scene I'm writing may be a cliche. The hero is a former policeman, a commoner who finds himself among aristocracy. An aristocrat has challenged the hero to a duel. The hero thinks dueling is nonsense, but he feels there really is a a point of pride at stake, so he refuses to back down, against the better judgment of his companions (three out of the four characters mentioned above). I've seen that before -- Richard Sharpe did it a couple of times in the Sharpe novels by Bernard Cornwell, and it came up at least once on "Firefly." But I feel if I ground the scene thoroughly in the settings, story and characters, it will work.

As I said, my solution to both of these problems is just to keep writing and have faith that solutions will present themselves. But I wonder: Is there a better way? Something I could do to fix the problem faster? Something I can do without interrupting writing at least 250 words per day?

allenparker

08-28-2007, 11:10 PM

Hi Mitch and a belated welcome.

There are probably as many solutions to your problem as there are writers. Mine is to keep on writing. You can't fix writer problems until they are written. Once you have a complete story in tangible form, you can start to sift the chaff from the wheat.

Somewhere in cyber space, Jim has placed a certificate allowing us to write poorly. Perhaps he will come along and offer this same scenario. This was a great help to me wen I was suffering through the "everything I write sucks" syndrome. I learned most of my first drafts were horrible, I just didn't know it till I learned more about writing. So I fought getting things on paper. I wanted them to be final draft quality. Now I treat the first draft as a great big detailed outline. I don't mind if the outline sucks. I'll fix it in the next 3000 drafts.

This may work for you, too.

Stew21

08-28-2007, 11:14 PM

I tend to agree with Allen. Write it - it is a first draft. You aren't going to know what to do to it to fix it until the whole story is out. give yourself permission to write it poorly and take it from there.
As for the redundant characters. I deleted 3 characters from my first MS. I combined the characteristics of the deleted characters, and attributed the good speeches and advice they gave to the MC to two other characters that were strong enough to carry it all.
Two characters in the final draft were actually composites of 5 characters reduced to be stronger and leaner. It worked for me. It might be a good solution too, but get the first draft done, then fix it.

James D. Macdonald

08-28-2007, 11:58 PM

I'm going to go along with Allen and Stew21 -- get it written, out to The End, then reread, revise, rewrite.

And 250 words per day is a novel a year. Which is Perfectly Respectable.

Mitch Wagner

08-29-2007, 12:04 AM

Thanks, all.

wee

08-29-2007, 12:07 AM

...I say to myself, "Come on, you don't want to break up the row of red Xes. And it's only 250 words." And I sit down and do my 250 words that day.

I don't know where I came up with the figure 250 words a day, but I do know that it was Cory Doctorow's quota while he had a full-time job that he traveled the world for. So it works. He turned out a mess of acclaimed short fiction and one or two novels on that system.

I like this little quota. I had tried to set one for myself of 1,000 words per day, but it is hard to stick to. 250 is just enough to get into it, & you are likely to write quite a bit more (I just did nearly 1,300 very easily). But it isn't so much that you are likely to feel daunted by it & not bother.

I should put up a calendar. It's too easy to cheat. :-)

aertep

08-29-2007, 12:23 AM

Hi Mitch,

Welcome, welcome. I didn't realize you were new to posting. Makes your congratulations even more special.

I like your system, too. My first draft came spewing out (no outline, just writing). I had done a lot of thinking and had a general idea of what the story would be, but I let it flow and lots of new stuff came with that.

I did, however, end up having to outline for the second and third drafts. But the first draft served as a handy dandy guide for an outline.

Ava Jarvis

08-29-2007, 05:34 AM

Save, save, save. Every day. And save some more.

The thing that I find is the absolute best, though, is Save to Paper. Hardcopy has some real advantages....

Hard copy doesn't corrupt and doesn't become unreadable because nobody supports the file format anymore. And you can scribble on it.

I've got a question. Right now I am working on a novel, but also on short stories. Is the market that short (haha) for the stuff?

I really like the short story (maybe I'm just nostalgic), because the space was so tight, and made you focus. In a novel my words feel rather lost and lonely, and I never seem to write enough; my chapters end up being 2 paperback pages long (counting 350 words to a page).

Azraelsbane

08-29-2007, 06:00 AM

I've been paranoid about saving ever since my hard drive melted some years back. I now backup everything to my idisk at 3am every day. It makes me feel a lot less angsty.

James D. Macdonald

08-29-2007, 07:06 AM

There are still plenty of markets for short stories. Check out Duotrope (http://www.duotrope.com/index.aspx).

MelodyO

08-29-2007, 08:45 AM

That's an amazing resource! Thank you so much for posting it.

aertep

08-29-2007, 10:34 AM

Ooh, thanks for Duotrope.

allenparker

08-29-2007, 06:40 PM

I'm going to go along with Allen and Stew21 -- get it written, out to The End, then reread, revise, rewrite.

And 250 pages per day is a novel a year. Which is Perfectly Respectable.

WOW! I feel like such a slacker. Jim is writing novels with 91, 000 page books and getting them published. I need to go back to the beginning of Writing With Uncle Jim. I am doing something wrong. At 250 pages, I am just not getting the job done. Jim writes in one day what I write in a year. No wonder I am not a respectable writer. I'll slip on down to the unrespectable writer's room and pump out so more erotica. Anyone seen my can of whipped cream or my spurs?

(sorry, I was just so excited that I wrote something Jim agreed with that I just couldn't resist.)

Luc2

08-29-2007, 09:02 PM

Dear Uncle Jim,

I only joined AW a few says ago. I must say that this thread alone is an excellent reason for joining! I'm reading forward, so I'm only on page six, but so far it's golden.

Thank you for giving another reason to procrastinate without feeling too guilty.

James D. Macdonald

08-29-2007, 09:32 PM

Arrrrgh! Words per day! Not Pages!

On my very best day I've only managed a bit over a hundred pages.

James D. Macdonald

08-29-2007, 10:04 PM

(250 pages a day is three novels a week.)

alanna

08-29-2007, 10:13 PM

Arrrrgh! Words per day! Not Pages!

On my very best day I've only managed a bit over a hundred pages.

"only." "ONLY" he says!! :e2thud:

Niteowl

08-30-2007, 01:06 AM

My biggest problem as a fiction writer is that I have no confidence. I think everything I write is crap.

Oh sweet Odin and Thor, I have the same... no, not feelings, conviction. It's not a good. Especially when I still feel that way AFTER the edit. I'm not sure if there is a solution to this problem. Perhaps write something new (and possibly) less craptacular? *shrugs*

aertep

08-30-2007, 03:25 AM

Oh sweet Odin and Thor, I have the same... no, not feelings, conviction. It's not a good. Especially when I still feel that way AFTER the edit. I'm not sure if there is a solution to this problem. Perhaps write something new (and possibly) less craptacular? *shrugs*

When you love the work, it's painful if the work doesn't love you.

It's healthy to be able to critique our work honestly, but if we lack confidence completely maybe then it's not so healthy.

Have you (Niteowl, Mitch) received critiques? Have you found a group/mirror to shine your stuff into and get some feedback? Would that help you see where you stand?

If I were to reword those questions, what I would really ask is this: is your fear founded in reality? If so, you can do something: study the craft and improve your work. If the fear is founded in something else you can also do something: take the steps needed (therapy, voodoo, mountain climbing--whatever works for you) to improve your outlook.

One doesn't have to live in the fear that one's beloved work isn't good enough. My two cents on the subject.

Ava Jarvis

08-30-2007, 06:21 AM

I suggest taking Jim's advice: find the works of authors you admire, and retype their chapters/stories/whatever. And listen with your writer's ear. We absorb style and writing tastes from what we read and which resonates with us; by retyping and internalizing, it's a more immersive form of reading.

It's what I'm doing to relearn all that I lost (and learn more on top of that). Helps confidence too.

It's also a good warm-up into 250 words per day.

And yes, it helps you be a better typer. :) (If you like, you can also find typing lessons and take those. It will help you feel less frustrated in all walks of writing later.)

James D. Macdonald

08-30-2007, 11:08 AM

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/permission.pdf

Permission To Write Badly. Suitable for framing.

Ken Schneider

09-03-2007, 05:58 PM

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/permission.pdf

Permission To Write Badly. Suitable for framing.

Print it, and hang it up right in front of your face.

Does wonders for writer's block.

Jim, Have I missed any writing exercises while on my hiatus? Writing like a wild man.

Be well all, Ken

cletus

09-03-2007, 09:14 PM

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/permission.pdf

Permission To Write Badly. Suitable for framing.
I have used this permission extensively over the last 2 days. The idea for the scene is in my head, but does not want to go onto the screen in an orderly fashion. One thousand words of pure crap that can be sorted through, shifted about, and shined up in a couple months when it is time to edit.

aertep

09-03-2007, 10:33 PM

I have used this permission extensively over the last 2 days.

I use it extensively all the time. ;)

Scribhneoir

09-04-2007, 03:00 AM

I use it extensively all the time. ;)

I carry it with me wherever I go. :tongue

NemoBook

09-06-2007, 11:43 PM

My favorite warm-up is this new collaborative novel-writing site I just found, where they gather a bunch of writers to work on a single project (which the company publishes once the given book is finished).

There's an extensive outline for each project, broken down page-by-page, so it's not just willy-nilly exquisite corpse-style writing. They give you a synopsis for a given page and then four or five writers try their hand at writing 800-1000 words to flesh out that synopsis. The pages are rated and the best one winds up in the published book (with some editing on the back-end to make it all work together). A few of my MFA buddies are doing it too, so sometimes we play games with each other -- like, extra points for whoever can include the weirdest sandwich in their given page.

It's a young site, but it's been by far my most helpful "throat-clearing" warm up to do in the mornings before I get to my own personal work -- especially because there's a deadline and people are waiting for my work. Gets the cobwebs out and then I can dive in. Plus, it's another low-stress shot at publication. I love it.

Niteowl

09-07-2007, 03:12 AM

Er, link? :)

James D. Macdonald

09-07-2007, 11:31 AM

Things I've Learned Since My First Book Got Published (http://cmpriest.livejournal.com/879864.html) by Cherie Priest

JoNightshade

09-07-2007, 10:14 PM

Things I've Learned Since My First Book Got Published (http://cmpriest.livejournal.com/879864.html) by Cherie Priest

GREAT article. My novel hasn't even been published and I already have to deal with this one:

You are now the foremost authority on the English language. At least, this is what all your friends/relatives who do not write will assume, and they will treat you like their personal diction consultant. While you are at work, you will receive phone calls from Florida, where your aunt wants to know about a comma she's considering for the church bulletin.

In addition to this, I am also percieved as a walking dictionary. Lately I've started saying what my mom always told me as a kid, "Oh, go look it up yourself."

Willowmound

09-08-2007, 03:37 PM

How peculiar. I love being dictionary-man.

aertep

09-08-2007, 08:26 PM

How peculiar. I love being dictionary-man.

Willowmound, you made me laugh! I enjoyed Ms. Priest's article, but that one puzzled me, too, because I do like being the family language authority (even when I don't have the slightest idea what I'm talking about).

NemoBook

09-09-2007, 02:12 AM

NemoBook

09-13-2007, 02:11 AM

Er, link? :)

Niteowl (or anyone else), here's the link. They're apparently looking for a ton of writers right now (moving into beta testing phase of the site), so if you're interested, register and apply here:

https://www.webook.com/register.aspx?invitation=HBOeNkGCdYZWO1udR2BPMyWeS kj1x02kV9boy44j2c3CjooMs%2bDh9c3QhLMn35%2fI

I've been alpha testing for these guys for a few months, and it's a nice way to get the literary juices flowing in the morning. I'm not sure what they're looking for now, but I've made some extra $$ and been able to mess around with lots of genres (literary fiction, but also mysteries, thrillers, sci-fi, childrens, etc.). Totally worth it. There's info on the site, but PM me if you have any questions.

James D. Macdonald

09-15-2007, 02:36 AM

Why books get rejected: Example #528907 (http://tontopress.blogspot.com/2007/09/how-not-to-approach-publishers.html)

allenparker

09-18-2007, 06:44 PM

I finished a writing my WIP. I've been pretty proud of this particular WIP and eagerly crawled into reading the first few chapters. I couldn't edit it. I read it, but I just couldn't get to "fixing" it.

Instead of thinking it would make Stephen King jealous, I wasn't sure who the audience was. I couldn't tell if there was a reason for reading it, or whether the book showed any value. It was either the best story I've ever written or the worst. I teetered on the brink of deleting it.

I knew the book was rough to the point of being raw. I knew some people would find it offensive. But I couldn't tell if what I had done was unique or crap.

I asked two trusted betas to read it. One thought it brilliant. The other couldn't finish five pages. To break the tie, I burned my mystery beta and asked her to read some pages. Her comments were more of the "I'd finish it, but only to find out why the guy was killing people."

Ever have one of these weeks? I see the book completely different from all the others and even I can't tell if it is my best work to date or some bird cage liner ready for publication through Dorrance.

Now what?

aertep

09-18-2007, 09:03 PM

Congratulations on finishing, Allen. It's a major achievement just to do that. The rest--the confusion--is interesting, and I look forward to hearing what you discover. I think it says your WIP is at least not boring or middle-of-the-road, and that's something.

bsolah

09-19-2007, 05:07 AM

Yeah, kind of interested to have a read myself, Allen.

Post it on SYW and leave a link, if you'd like.

James D. Macdonald

09-19-2007, 09:26 AM

Give it three months in your desk drawer while you write something else.

Red Robin

09-19-2007, 10:12 AM

AceTachyon

09-19-2007, 10:27 PM

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/permission.pdf

Permission To Write Badly. Suitable for framing.
Thank you, Uncle Jim.

Printed and framed.

James D. Macdonald

09-21-2007, 10:16 PM

This isn't even the longest thread at Absolute Write.

Meanwhile, here's an Index to Miss Snark (http://wyrdsmiths.blogspot.com/2007/09/truly-garagantuan-miss-snark-index-post.html).

Ava Jarvis

09-21-2007, 11:05 PM

Since I'm still fairly new here this suggestion might seem completely crazy, but...

Why don't we have an Uncle Jim forum rather than a thread? 256 pages of thread is a little much.

Am I nuts? I don't think I'm nuts.

One thread is easier for Uncle Jim to deal with than 50.

Index to Uncle Jim: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8754

Best of Uncle Jim thread: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7987

jennifer75

09-22-2007, 04:00 AM

"Learn Writing With Uncle Jim" started in September of 2003. Well over a year old, the thread shows no signs of losing momentum or popularity.

This poses a challenge for the new reader. There are a lot of pages to read, before jumping in to try and participate in an ongoing conversation.

Tell me about it. Sure I've been around since January - WOOHOOO - but the threads are chaotic! So much to read, it's almost to intimidating to look at. But thank God for the link index!!! Thank you!!!

James D. Macdonald

09-28-2007, 06:28 PM

Beginning tomorrow I'll be away at Viable Paradise (http://www.viableparadise.com/).

Here's how that ended up last year (http://isbw.murlafferty.com/?p=160).

Niteowl

09-28-2007, 10:04 PM

Hi Uncle Jim,

What other reputable workshops are there (preferably in the Northwest)? I know of Clarion, and Viable Paradise, and that's it.

Thanks!

prusik

09-29-2007, 01:09 AM

What other reputable workshops are there (preferably in the Northwest)? I know of Clarion, and Viable Paradise, and that's it.

Clarion West is in Seattle. Odyssey is in Manchester, NH. Both are 6 week intensive workshops.

DeleyanLee

09-29-2007, 01:49 AM

Why books get rejected: Example #528907 (http://tontopress.blogspot.com/2007/09/how-not-to-approach-publishers.html)

Grazie! I needed the laugh just before the long commute home.

James D. Macdonald

10-04-2007, 07:02 AM

retterson

10-04-2007, 07:53 AM

Done. They accept Paypal.

$5 per user is all they need.

Go. Do it. After Uncle Jim teaches you to write your stories, you will need to know where to send them. Duotrope can help.

Niteowl

10-05-2007, 12:36 PM

Duotrope needs help to stay free. If you can donate, please do so.

http://www.duotrope.com/

(Note: I am not affiliated with Duotrope in any way. I just think it's a heck of a neat service and would serve all writers better by staying open and available to all writers.)
Does some sort of Adsense support not work? Do they not get enough traffic for that sort of revenue model? I'm sure most aspiring writers would prefer a few google ads to having no duotrope at all.

James D. Macdonald

10-07-2007, 12:30 AM

Adsense is a blot on the face of the 'net.

But don't ask me. Ask the Duotrope people -- I don't know any of them.

SpookyWriter

10-07-2007, 12:49 AM

Adsense is a blot on the face of the 'net.

But don't ask me. Ask the Duotrope people -- I don't know any of them.I had to read this several times to understand what Adsense meant. I'm not so inclined to understand or participate in technology that has a financial motivation.

Dave.C.Robinson

10-08-2007, 03:53 PM

Adsense is a blot on the face of the 'net.

But don't ask me. Ask the Duotrope people -- I don't know any of them.

However nothing is as bad IMHO as those double-underlined inline text ads some sites have. Thankfully with the right Greasemonkey scripts Firefox can disable them.

JoniBGoode

10-08-2007, 08:51 PM

I had to read this several times to understand what Adsense meant. I'm not so inclined to understand or participate in technology that has a financial motivation.

Hi Spooky! That seems a little quirky. So...you don't watch network TV? Or go to the movies?

I think there's a difference between putting up enough adsense ads to keep the site free (as Absolutewrite does on its forums) and having "a financial motivation."

aertep

10-08-2007, 09:24 PM

Maybe UJ means to imply a difference between Adsense itself and advertising on the internet in general?

I don't mind seeing a few ads to have access to the internet for "free."

NemoBook

10-09-2007, 12:22 AM

I've pretty much learned to tune ads out as much as possible. As long as I don't have to pay membership dues to sites like this, they can inundate my eyeballs with whatever they want (to a point...)

slythwolf

10-09-2007, 07:42 PM

I've got a Firefox addon set up to disable javascripts automatically until I allow the sites I trust by hand. I never see ads anymore.

James D. Macdonald

10-10-2007, 03:30 AM

I mean the Adsense ads. Google ads.

Anything you see advertised that's writing-related is usually an ad for a scammer. Perhaps that extends to areas I don't know as well, perhaps not, but for writers, it's scams all the way down.

Much of the time the ads that are served are hilariously mis-aimed.

If someone wants to be supported by advertising, well and good, but they ought to pick their ads, not accept whatever random stuff shows up.

===========

Having said that, here's a place that supports itself with Adsense ads, but is nevertheless useful.

http://nine.frenchboys.net/index.php

Go, and pick up Random Stuff to use in your stories (for those days when the inspiration just doesn't arrive on time).

James D. Macdonald

10-17-2007, 07:31 PM

My secret shame revealed.

In the Boston Globe. (http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2007/10/16/the_new_adventures_of_old_skywalker/)

Nangleator

10-17-2007, 08:24 PM

To paraphrase Lazarus Long, as long as you do it in private and wash your hands afterwards...

Sailor Kenshin

10-17-2007, 11:05 PM

My secret shame revealed.

In the Boston Globe. (http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2007/10/16/the_new_adventures_of_old_skywalker/)

Kewl.

I did it the opposite way. Retired, now playing. :D

Sassee

10-18-2007, 01:31 AM

I used to write DBZ fan fiction...

<wields her shurikens menacingly> Don't even say it.

It's okay, Jim. You gave us permission to write crap. I hereby give you permission to write shameless fan fiction ;)

Ava Jarvis

10-18-2007, 01:51 AM

I'm starting to come around to the idea that fan fiction really is good training wheels---it certainly was to me---and basically a way for the writerly to play with dolls. It's way cheaper too. And more fun. And more flexible.

But any fanfic writer worth their salt will, if they realize they want to do this for an actual living, know that there are boundaries to fanfic, and that they need to spread their wings out more. Yes, characters are really hard.... but characters are really fun. Yes, world-building is really hard... but it is really fun. You're following in the footsteps of your favorite creators.

One day you may return the favor and write something that they or their children or their children's children will admire and have fun with. And that is the best payback of all.

Fanfic writers, spread your wings. You have nothing to lose but your innocence. If you were writing slash, you have nothin' to lose... :D

PeeDee

10-18-2007, 05:19 AM

I spent a few years writing fan-fiction, although I never knew that was the name for it. I just had my own characters in other people's universes and I told what stories I could, what I thought would matter, and I said what I had to say. In hindsight, they were definitely written by a writer learning his chops...but I'm unashamed.

I'm ashamed of fanfiction now, though, it's awful stuff. The good crowd went on to Real Writing Careers, everything left is frightening.

...This is a really enjoyable article, actually, and it's full of really intelligent people (Debra, Patrick Hayden, etc.)

Sailor Kenshin

10-18-2007, 06:43 PM

[quote=PeeDee;1733942]

I'm ashamed of fanfiction now, though, it's awful stuff. The good crowd went on to Real Writing Careers, everything left is frightening.

[quote]

Gee, thanks. :rolleyes:

MelodyO

10-18-2007, 06:57 PM

I'm ashamed of fanfiction now, though, it's awful stuff. The good crowd went on to Real Writing Careers, everything left is frightening.

Gee, thanks. :rolleyes:

He's just not hanging around the right fandoms, Sailor Kenshin! I know fanfic writers who are truly gifted, and I only wish they'd write original fic so I could buy it. I don't blame them, though. They have a loyal fanbase and none of the heartbreak of trying to get published. Money is not the basis for every person's reason for writing.

PS I'm enjoying all your posts on fanfic, even though AW is obviously a tough crowd. :)

Sailor Kenshin

10-18-2007, 07:36 PM

He's just not hanging around the right fandoms, Sailor Kenshin! I know fanfic writers who are truly gifted, and I only wish they'd write original fic so I could buy it. I don't blame them, though. They have a loyal fanbase and none of the heartbreak of trying to get published. Money is not the basis for every person's reason for writing.

PS I'm enjoying all your posts on fanfic, even though AW is obviously a tough crowd. :)

Thanks. ^___^

It's true that there's some awful fanfic out there----but there's also some truly dreadful published work.

James D. Macdonald

10-27-2007, 01:59 AM

Where I'll be tomorrow: Book 'Em (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/009519.html#009519).

This is your chance (O ye New Hampshire/Vermont/Massachusetts/Maine fans) to visit.

James D. Macdonald

10-30-2007, 07:26 PM

A very clever thing indeed:
Stephanie Zvan's Very Smart Writer's Spreadsheet (http://wyrdsmiths.blogspot.com/2007/10/stephanie-zvans-very-smart-writers.html)

It's a tool for looking at a story scene-by-scene, and making each scene explain why it's in your story. You use the spreadsheet software that you probably already have to make this work.

aertep

10-30-2007, 09:02 PM

I like it because I'm an outliner (although I usually don't outline until the second draft). It could help me organize and make sure I get everything into the story that needs to be there, and eliminate excess.

But what I really like is the visitor map at the bottom of the page!

HConn

10-30-2007, 09:16 PM

That spread sheet looks great, but it's way too organized for me.

Nangleator

10-30-2007, 10:49 PM

But what I really like is the visitor map at the bottom of the page!
Yeah, a few close ones geographically and temporally!

James D. Macdonald

10-31-2007, 06:25 AM

Heck, the first draft you're still groping around trying to figure out what the book is about. Second draft is where it starts coming together.

Speaking of which, we're starting to run some bits of deleted draft from one of my old novels in our LiveJournal over at http://mist-and-snow.livejournal.com/

These are scenes that were cut early on from The Apocalypse Door (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0312869886/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/).

James D. Macdonald

11-06-2007, 08:35 PM

Do you remember way back here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710&page=246) when I posted...

Never have I felt quite so worldly as I did on my very first real date, when, after considered perusal of the wine list, I masterfully commanded the waiter at the Log Cabin restaurant in Lenox, Massachusetts, to fetch me a bottle of Mateus Rosé. In its distinctive Buddah-shaped bottle, with its slight spritz, it represented a step up from the pink Almaden that my friends and I sucked down in order to get into the proper Dionysian frame of mind for the summer rock concerts at Tanglewood. (And that seemed a classic accompaniment--rather like Chablis and oysters--to the cheap Mexican pot we were smoking at the time.) Later, of course, as I discovered the joys of dry reds and whites, I learned to sneer at pink wine; it seemed--as Winston Churchill once remarked regarding the moniker of an acquaintance named Bossom--that it was neither one thing nor the other. A few summers ago a bottle of Domaines Ott rosé in conjunction with a leg of marinated grilled lamb cured me of this particular prejudice; I thought I'd died and gone to Provence, though in fact I was at my friend Steve's birthday party in the Hamptons.

... and asked "would you turn the page?"

The time has come for a line-by-line, to discover what this author was doing and how he was doing it.

That's the first page from Bacchus and Me: Adventures in the Wine Cellar (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/037571362X/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) by Jay McInerney. Five sentences; 201 words.

Never have I felt quite so worldly as I did on my very first real date, when, after considered perusal of the wine list, I masterfully commanded the waiter at the Log Cabin restaurant in Lenox, Massachusetts, to fetch me a bottle of Mateus Rosé.

Never have I felt ... is an unusual word order. Primacy of place in the sentence, and the whole book, to "Never." The author introduces his main character, who happens to be himself. The book is in First Person. "So worldly," combined with the never, tells us that the author feels less worldly now. "Very first real date" tells us that we're looking at a young adult (probably a teenager, from the days when the drinking age was 18). Certainly someone who's callow, and mistaken about being worldly at all. The "wine list" contrasts with the "Log Cabin Restaurant in Lenox, Massachusetts" to produce an irony--the waiter there would hardly have been a wine sophisticate--which leads us to the punchline "Mateus Rosé." This is a lovely description; we can see a young man trying to impress his date, (the "lengthy perusal"). What kind of a wine list would a place called the Log Cabin have? Nothing there would be anything other than common, and probably cheap.

In its distinctive Buddah-shaped bottle, with its slight spritz, it represented a step up from the pink Almaden that my friends and I sucked down in order to get into the proper Dionysian frame of mind for the summer rock concerts at Tanglewood.

Pure description at the head of this sentence, leads into a memory within a memory, from that first real date, to earlier, and even more callow teenager invoking the Roman god of wine. Dionysus (another name for Bacchus), suggests wild, larger-than-life, heroic drinking and merrymaking. We're tending to the orgy side of the scale. This, by someone who has never been on a date. He's trying, oh yes. The author is looking back on his younger self with amusment and fondness. The horrors of pink Almaden are explained by example: the use it's put to by young men heading to second-rate rock concerts.

(And that seemed a classic accompaniment--rather like Chablis and oysters--to the cheap Mexican pot we were smoking at the time.)

Comparison--Chablis and oysters--pink Almaden and cheap Mexican pot. We're putting rose wine in a category, one that only the young, inexperienced, unsophisticated, would enjoy. This parenthetical is the shortest, simplest one on this page. The other sentences are grammatically complicated, revealing the speaker's character as a someone who is infinitely worldly.

Later, of course, as I discovered the joys of dry reds and whites, I learned to sneer at pink wine; it seemed--as Winston Churchill once remarked regarding the moniker of an acquaintance named Bossom--that it was neither one thing nor the other.

"Of course." With a historical allusion, a slightly risque joke that slows us down to get the flavor. This sophisticated person speaks of the "joys of dry reds and whites." He sneers at pink wines. Three sentences in and we have a very good idea of this character. We also have the first inkling of the plot: the classic "The Man Who Learned Better."

A few summers ago a bottle of Domaines Ott rosé in conjunction with a leg of marinated grilled lamb cured me of this particular prejudice; I thought I'd died and gone to Provence, though in fact I was at my friend Steve's birthday party in the Hamptons.

Our speaker is a true gormand; "died and gone to Provence." No longer are we in Tanglewood, we're in the Hamptons (well known for being an expensive neighborhood just chock-a-block with urban sophisticates. Marinated grilled lamb is a world away from the Whoppers that we can imagine the author's younger self eating when the cheap pot gave him the munchies. We've also met a second named character: his friend Steve. The date he took to the Log Cabin and the nameless friends who went to rock concerts aren't important and the reader won't think about them. Now we have someone to keep in mind. The author is also breaking out of the total self-absorption of the young and into a wider head-space, developing his own character.

And who is Steve? Someone who lives in the Hamptons, serves grilled lamb, and is able to teach someone who thinks he knows about wine, and who apparently is a world traveler, something new about the drink.

So. Character revealed in every sentence. Complex compound sentences. Using the Flesch-Kincaid scale, this piece of writing is at the 16th grade level (senior in college).

We've seen several tricks used to slow the reader down, to make the reader sip the prose the way our narrator would sip his wine.

And so... would you turn the page?

Shadow_Ferret

11-06-2007, 08:40 PM

I would not turn the page. I found it too circular and meandering for my tastes. It didn't grab my attention. I guess that means I'll never succeed in this profession.

PeeDee

11-06-2007, 08:44 PM

Would I continue reading? Absolutely. First, because I am interested in the character now. It's only five sentences, but it's more than enough to invest in him. We have learned something of his younger days, and they are perhaps similar enough to our own -- or someone we have known -- to give us something to relate to. Also, we are seeing him reminiscing about younger days and cheaper wines, and that promises us the long journey to the present day where he's narrating.

And beyond that, there's the language of the piece. It's fluid and it's not confusing, while at the same time being thick. That's fine by me. The language of the piece, and the tone, all by themselves seem to introduce me to the primary character, the older narrator looking back, and without consciously realizing it, the language has vested my interest in what story he has to tell me.

Judg

11-06-2007, 08:52 PM

I would turn the page, yes. I can appreciate sophistication, but I loathe the "sophistication" that consists primarily of looking down one's nose. So I'd be turning the page to see if the deprecation of his former self will be extended to his present self, whether he has some real ideas or stories or just wants us to glory with him in his present exalted state. In other words, I like my sophistication with a heavy side order of humility. If he delivers, I will read happily. If not, meh. I have better things to do than read the words of the self-absorbed. The jury's still out.

qdsb

11-06-2007, 08:53 PM

Now that's a loaded question, Uncle Jim. And one that I can answer very, very subjectively.

I LOVE the way it's written. I love all those nuances of structure.

BUT I'm turned off by the persona. It's a vivid POV with a distinct voice, but even the evolution conveyed in that paragraph basically presents a persona that (just in my perception) goes from bad to worse. The "I thought I'd died and gone to Provence" line pretty much makes me want to shut the book.

(Having said that, I'd probably still seek out other books by that author, hoping that other books maintain that level of writing but with characters I find more appealing.)

Thanks for the fascinating deconstruction!

Ava Jarvis

11-06-2007, 09:00 PM

For some reason this reminds me of the opening of Dicken's _A Christmas Carol_ (also analyzed way way back on this thread somewhere :)).

It's a character-based opening, so obvious action (running joggers, exploding trucks, people driving somewhere) is limited. So this relies on the character being interesting:

- interesting attitudes (a gourmand with distinct opinions),
- an interesting job (we are all interested in the day to day actions of someone who does not share the same professional world as us; think spies, policemen and private detectives, doctors and ambulance drivers)
- evidence of an interesting history (memories stretching back and forth, already laying out a more complex framework).

Another character-based opening is Gaiman's _Anansi Boys_, which also covers similar ground after the mythopoeic opening. All of these share the above characteristics.

Is this what is needed to make a character-based opening work? I dunno, but they seem to be big keys.

Yes, I would read on.

James D. Macdonald

11-06-2007, 09:14 PM

In the big divide between Character-Based and Plot-Based writing, this book seems to me to be very firmly on the Character-Based side.

But let's look at the genre a bit: there's a sub-genre called "Bob and Me," in which two people learn something together. It's a novelistic approach to non-fiction. You can find it anywhere -- from the columns in Byte magazine through Popular Mechanics and on. The reader will be aware of the book's title: Bacchus and Me. We're being promised a Bacchanal: an orgy characterized by heavy drinking. The subtitle promises "adventures." The wine cellar is a low place. That tension, the urban sophisticate we're meeting now and the reveler that the title promises, can drive us a bit.

McInerney's works ought to have a little disclaimer on the cover: Warning, professional stunt writer on a closed course. Do not attempt this at home.

But there is nothing that a writer should not attempt at home.

qdsb

11-06-2007, 09:51 PM

Sidenote: A cockeyed Thank You to Uncle Jim for adding to my Amazon wish list...While I'm not interested in this particular McInerney book, I did just add his novel The Good Life...which I think is more up my particular alley.

Ava Jarvis

11-06-2007, 10:18 PM

I find unlikeable characters interesting. They almost always have some kind of gem in them. An appreciation of wines is definitely not a problem to me---and when you appreciate food, you really DO say and feel things like that, such as "I thought I'd died and gone to Provence", where we're talking about Provence, France, which features pretty damn good wines (as France does, in general).

There is nothing snobby about it, actually; no more than appreciating an art piece when you have a deep knowledge of art.

But then again, I am more familiar with reading about people who really, really like their food. If you ever visit France, you get to be like that....

allenparker

11-07-2007, 12:39 AM

Read while sipping a glass of Boones Farm Tickle Pink for irony, or toss in the box going to the used book exchange and find a comfortable slot at the bar where the guys shoot whiskey till dawn?

HConn

11-07-2007, 12:43 AM

I would not read further. I don't like the voice.

Sailor Kenshin

11-07-2007, 01:13 AM

James D. Macdonald

11-07-2007, 08:42 AM

mikeland

11-07-2007, 08:25 PM

A perennial question on the boards here is, "Can I write about an unlikeable main character?" The answer is, "Yes."

Even if this main character is utterly loathsome (and I don't really see him that way right now), casting him in first-person means that the character will attempt to justify himself. Since every man is the hero of his own story ....

If you do find yourself trying to write an unlikeable character as your protagonist, consider going the first-person route.

I'm a newbie around here, so feel free to point me to other threads if I'm covering well-trod ground.

I know that unlikeable characters make some folks put down the book. But I'd be interested to hear why other people are willing to read unlikeable characters.

Are you waiting for the character to get what's coming to him? Or hoping to see the character redeemed? Or is it just the joy of watching an unlikeable character do unlikeable things?

And what have you seen writers do to make you like the unlikeable? Or if you still don't like the character, what other techniques besides first person have you seen that make people keep reading?

PeeDee

11-07-2007, 08:33 PM

Take Gregory House (from the TV show, you guessed it, House) as an example. He's unlikable as hell. So why do I watch him every week with delight? It's not just enjoying Hugh Laurie's performance that I care about this self-centered jerk.

Am I waiting for him to become a better person? I don't know. Like a good flirt going between two characters, the end result (House is nice, the couple gets together) is less enjoyable than the process.

I think it's two things.

One, the unlikable character brings a tension to the story which is interesting to read. We watch House because 1) He's brilliant 2) We like watching other people trying to interact with him 3) We like watching him succeed, and fail.

Two, an unlikable character has a definite feeling of being "in motion." The Gregory House example is, he's heading for a bad fall, or he's heading to get himself straightened out. We don't know which, but the motion is there and it's compelling. Forward motion is always compelling in a story.

That's what I've got.

Ava Jarvis

11-07-2007, 10:07 PM

Unlikeable characters who are sympathetic connect to the reader. Understanding is what leads to sympathy. People in general know they aren't perfect, so reading about an imperfect person should not instantly turn them away as long as a point of connection is made.

To start with, unlikeable characters that are sympathetic have some emotional connection point to the reader. Can you identify with jealous love? Most people can, because most people have felt it before. How about envy? Sure enough, most people have felt that. Loneliness and despair? Ditto. Fear and pride? Check and check. Or love of beauty? Check for quite a few. For unlikeable characters, these are not so much excuses as points of identification.

Unlikeable characters must have some characteristic that stands out above the rest. Highly intelligent and usually philosophical, these are the keys to unlocking that mysterious mask. It helps if an appreciation for art, literature, or otherwise is added to the mix. These show that the unlikeable character has a life outside of their unlikeable characteristics, something that makes you sit up and say "Well, at least he's special and I don't have to put up with bungling or mindless violence."

And unlikeable characters must have drive, more than anybody else in a book. This makes you sit up and wonder, hey? What's got a bee up HIS bonnet? Drive is something most people like, because it means that someone doesn't sit around feeling all emo and sorry for themselves, and get out and _make things happen_. It's no surprise that villains and antagonists, sympathetic or not, are the drivers behind the plot of a book.

Lastly, unlikeable characters have some strange good point about them. This may seem to come about as serendipity, or as part of their philosophy, or as part of their drive. It usually shows up as a point of honor for them, something they believe in that lies above the concrete world, just as love and justice stand above for most characters. Whether it's a mob that protects its own and lives by mob laws honorably, or a psychopathic cannibal that helps another person catch a serial killer, or an arrogant detective who is obsessed with finding justice--this makes any character, unlikeable or not, rise above the rest. They have some useful purpose in the world, even as a force for good.

Basically, unlikeable characters have as much a burden as likeable characters to be sympathetic: they must be unusual and identifiable with. Perhaps even more. Otherwise no one really cares about either.

I'd drop a book about a boring, unlikeable person just as I would drop one about a boring, likeable person. I read books for entertainment and understanding of the human condition; dropping the imperfect and refusing to try to understand them is very much NOT the key to understanding people. Nobody is perfect, and everybody has some dark side to them. The fascination with that is something between watching a train wreck because it's interesting, and watching a train wreck because of the strange stories of bravery and kindness that come up out of the smoke, larger than life and all the more outstanding because they occur in the heart of darkness.

Uh, yadda yadda yadda.

batgirl

11-08-2007, 04:48 AM

I've read unlikeable characters with great interest. Sometimes to see whether they'd get smacked down, sometimes with a sort of horrified fascination, or even envy that someone has the guts to be that self-centred and unpleasant. Cordelia, on the first seasons of Buffy, for instance.
And I've given up on books where it seemed that only I thought the character was unpleasant--the author appeared to think the character was perfect. Maybe that makes a difference?
-Barbara

James D. Macdonald

11-08-2007, 07:37 AM

The secret to getting your readers to follow any character (likeable, unlikeable, sympathetic, unsympathetic) is to make that character move. You can't follow someone who's standing still. (The best you can do is mill about in that person's general location.)

The eye always follow the object that's in motion.

Ava Jarvis

11-08-2007, 07:41 AM

:wriggles the character on a stick in front of the reader, hoping for a reaction:

mikeland

11-08-2007, 08:56 AM

Thanks Uncle Jim and friends. Helpful as always.

David Wisehart

11-08-2007, 12:35 PM

Give your unlikeable character a strong goal or desire.

Readers will identify with the goal, and with the struggles the character endures to achieve that goal, even if the character is a lowdown dirty rat.

Ken Schneider

11-08-2007, 06:25 PM

I'd have to turn the page, because I didn't draw all the information out of that paragraph as you did in your line by line.

If I looked at every book I read like that line by line, I'd never finish one book.

The interworkings of the line by line is interesting and shows me how in just one paprgraph one can give a lot of info. Though, as a reader, I wouldn't catch all that info in the manner discribed in the line by line.
So, what would be the purpose? Is its purpose to inject info into the subconscious mind for the reader? Then later it has more meaning?
Or do we, "Get it" , and don't really know it?

Ken

James D. Macdonald

11-08-2007, 09:25 PM

Readers don't consciously drag this stuff out. They find the meaning they need. Writers don't necessarily put the material in cold-bloodedly, either. It could (should?) be just what feels right.

Please notice that the act of building the character started in the first sentence of the first paragraph on the first page. There isn't a line that isn't devoted to defining the character.

arodriguez

11-09-2007, 08:44 AM

yeah. what he said.

Stlight

11-09-2007, 10:34 AM

I’m a newbie posting wise here, though I’ve read this thread 1 and ½ times now.
I wouldn’t turn the page now, but there was a time when I would have. The sections sounded so much like J. Barth, Bellows and their contemporaries that I actually looked up the publication date and was shocked to see it was 2002. Then I checked on Barth and there was Sotweed in paperback dated 2002. So I checked the Bacchus hardback and found it came out in 2000. Perhaps that is simply this genre? Is it a genre?

Finally commenting. Yes, I’ve done the work, sent two books out this year one early in the year and one late for consideration. Then realized I didn’t much care for the genre. Since that seemed like a huge mistake I thought re-reading this thread would be a good step.
Stlight

Dawno

12-02-2007, 11:21 PM

btw, the index thread f (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8754)or Learn Writing is now up to date.

Nyna

12-03-2007, 06:46 AM

I will read about likeable characters who are bad people, or unlikeable characters who are good people, but if you're character is both unlikable and a terrible human being you better be either the next great literary genius or have a hell of a story to tell.

As for the passage: I was actually a little jarred when it ended. I would probably get halfway through the book on sheer momentum, at which point I would step back and reflect and see if I was actually interested in what happened to the characters. (This is actually what has happened to me when reading McIrney before. Usually I finish.)

chroniclemaster1

12-03-2007, 09:44 AM

Funny I'm getting less and less patient with books that seem to be wasting my time. I used to finish them "because they were there" and now I seem to be getting crotchety in my old age. (since I turned 30. Yes, I feel the sympathy, thank you.)

I really liked your analysis that it's the movement that makes a character worthwhile. I'd been thinking while I read the posts the "likeable" was a completely irrelevant attribute to the reader as long as the character was interesting. But whether a character is interesting is just the symptom of good writing, it's the conflict and development which are the things you have control over and will make the character interesting.

James D. Macdonald

12-03-2007, 07:10 PM

Which is what makes writing such a difficult task.

One one hand we have the question of Which Came First, The Character or the Plot? On the other hand we have The Prose, It Burns! (And yeah, that's deliberately ambiguous.)

Pretty Soon Now I'll look at the next McInerney excerpt. Then it'll be time for the Christmas Challenge.

James D. Macdonald

12-03-2007, 07:16 PM

Oh, yeah -- becoming impatient with novels as we grow older ... that's a function (I think) of having more experience with books. Ideas and techniques that once would have seemed fresh and new are now "Been There, Done That, Got the Tee-Shirt."

And comes the realization that time is fleeting; there are only so many more books that I'll ever be able to read. Does this need to be one of them?

Antony B

12-03-2007, 08:33 PM

becoming impatient with novels as we grow older ... that's a function (I think) of having more experience with books.

I certainly hope that's the reason behind my recent impatience with some novels. Unfortunately I still want to learn a lot more about writing. I say unfortunately because I believe there is nearly as much to learn from the novels that don't work as those that do. Despite my frustrations with certain books, I still slog my way through them so that I can decide why I, the reader, would rather be doing something (anything) else.

(aside: one of the reasons I won't be getting a Kindle is because, when I finish a 500 page mystery and it turns out I had the plot figured out back on page 100, I can't throw the damn novel against the wall without throwing $400 worth of equipment with it. The delete button just won't have the same satisfaction.)

(second aside: seeing as this is my first post to the Learn Writing... thread, a full three years since I first came across it, I'd like to say a big thanks to Uncle Jim for all the great advice that's contained here.)

aertep

12-04-2007, 07:16 AM

First, thanks and kudos to Dawno for updating the index thread.

Ah, so it's my age that makes me impatient. I recently gave up on two different novels: one with a seemingly interesting plot but third-grade-level writing, and one with lovely prose but an odious first person narrator who just could not get around to telling the story. Both of these books got great reviews and one was by a best-selling author (guess which one that was). I couldn't finish either; I was too impatient with the former, and too bored with the latter.

Sure, when I publish, people may say the same about me. I just hope they are at least able to read all the way through before doing so.

chroniclemaster1

12-04-2007, 12:21 PM

Oh, yeah -- becoming impatient with novels as we grow older ... And comes the realization that time is fleeting; there are only so many more books that I'll ever be able to read. Does this need to be one of them?

I hadn't thought about that, but I have had a good 35 years to build up an "OMG how will I ever read all these" book list. I bet that does have something to do with it.

Ideas and techniques that once would have seemed fresh and new are now "Been There, Done That, Got the Tee-Shirt."

I love it! Do you think your sense of humor develops with time? It's hard for me to tell, but if I remember my school years at all accurately, I think I was always 60 seconds too slow on the ad lib. But at the same time I really hadn't thought of "funny" as being something you could learn.

James D. Macdonald

12-04-2007, 09:41 PM

Back to the post from ages ago (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710&page=246)...

Today we're going to look at this bit, sentence by sentence:

You are not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at this time of the morning. But here you are, and you cannot say that the terrain is entirely unfamiliar, although the details are fuzzy. You are at a nightclub talking to a girl with a shaved head. The club is either Heartbreak or the Lizard Lounge. All might come clear if you could just slip into the bathroom and do a little more Bolivian Marching Powder. Then again, it might not. A small voice inside you insists that this epidemic lack of clarity is a result of too much of that already. The night has already turned on that imperceptible pivot where two A.M. changes to six A.M. You know this moment has come and gone, but you are not yet willing to concede that you have crossed the line beyond which all is gratuitous damage and the palsy of unraveled nerve endings. Somewhere back there you could have cut your losses, but you rode past that moment on a comet trail of white powder and now you are trying to hang on to the rush. Your brain at this moment is composed of brigades of tiny Bolivian soldiers. They are tired and muddy from their long march through the night. There are holes in their boots and they are hungry. They need to be fed. They need Bolivian Marching Powder.

That's the first page from Bright Lights, Big City (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0394726413/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) by Jay McInerney. This is a slender book, barely over 200 pages. Around 50,000 words. That's short for a novel, but still book length.

(Caveat: Studying openings teaches you openings. Studying endgames teaches you chess. In the same way, to learn novel-writing, study last chapters. It's just that last chapters are Lots Harder to do Line-by-Lines on. I'm taking the easy way out.)

So, what did McInerney do? 237 words, 14 sentences.

You are not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at this time of the morning.

Second person. We have two characters already from the first word: "You" and the narrator/speaker. We have a place ("a place like this") and a time ("this time of the morning"). So: person, place, time, and, taken as a whole, a problem. The "you" character is male, and there are certain expectations of him (rank? class? background?) that contrast with his location. At twenty-one words this is also one of the longest sentences on this page. It's doing a lot of heavy lifting.

But here you are, and you cannot say that the terrain is entirely unfamiliar, although the details are fuzzy.

Maybe you are the sort of person who's to be found in a place like this. Character building.

You are at a nightclub talking to a girl with a shaved head.

Two of those fuzzy details in a short, punchy sentence.

The place is defined, and another character is introduced. (Not only is this a nightclub, but it's the sort of nightclub where you'd find a girl with a shaved head.) That head is what we call the "telling detail."

Perhaps the narrator is the character himself, split up into a self and a conscious, like Pinocchio and Jiminy Cricket? Perhaps the narrator is a friend trying to do an intervention?

The club is either Heartbreak or the Lizard Lounge.

Character's mental state: Isn't sure where he is. Place defined further. We're learning that the first sentence was wrong: the protagonist is exactly the kind of guy who would be at a place like this. Which means that he's as freaky as a girl with a shaved head, only it might not show on the outside.

All might come clear if you could just slip into the bathroom and do a little more Bolivian Marching Powder.

A longer sentence, and the introduction of cocaine. The problem becomes clearer for the reader, though not necessarily for the protagonist. The place is even further described; the kind of nightclub where you find bald girls and people doing coke in the bathrooms.

Then again, it might not.

Five words. A more staccato rhythm. The protagonist's mental status further defined. Confusion. This is character building.

A small voice inside you insists that this epidemic lack of clarity is a result of too much of that already.

Perhaps the narrator speaking of himself in third person? The readers are told that the protagonist is seriously drugged-out. The protagonist seems to be having a lucid interval, as he suddenly looks around and asks "What the hell am I doing here?" I presume that the rest of the book will tell us that.

The night has already turned on that imperceptible pivot where two A.M. changes to six A.M.

"At this time of the morning," a question left hanging from the first sentence, is defined. It's already getting light outside. There are hours of missing time between two and six. The protagonist is in serious trouble. Still no plot on the horizon, but character and place are making up for that. (Oh, and that "imperceptible pivot" is a lovely image, isn't it? Gorgeous prose all through here.)

You know this moment has come and gone, but you are not yet willing to concede that you have crossed the line beyond which all is gratuitous damage and the palsy of unraveled nerve endings.

Thirty-five words. The longest sentence of this paragraph, about midway down the page. We learn that the protagonist is damaged and shaky and lying to himself.

Somewhere back there you could have cut your losses, but you rode past that moment on a comet trail of white powder and now you are trying to hang on to the rush.

Thirty-three words. We're at the slowest point in this pair of compound complex sentences. The reader will slow down too. We're in metaphor-land here, and this too will slow the reader.

Your brain at this moment is composed of brigades of tiny Bolivian soldiers.

Thirteen words. The sentences get faster and shorter from this point on. Extending the Bolivian Marching Powder metaphor. And the image of fragmentation is introduced. The army, while it usually acts as one, is composed of individuals fully capable of independent action regardless of what the commanding general orders.

They are tired and muddy from their long march through the night.

Twelve words. A shorter sentence still, extending the metaphor, tying it into the protagonist's activities last night.

There are holes in their boots and they are hungry.

Ten words. Extending the metaphor.

They need to be fed.

Five words. Simple sentence. Fast rhythm.

They need Bolivian Marching Powder.

Five more words. Extending the metaphor. Character and situation developed further.

We've seen some really excellent character development done by a trained stunt writer on a closed course. The protagonist is talking to a girl, but all he's thinking about is getting more coke to keep going, keep damaging himself, because that's what his fragmented brain, the ragged army barely under his control, needs to keep going. Even though he knows that "keeping going" isn't what they need. They need sleep, warmth, dry clothing, new boots, food.

Now the question: would you turn the page?

Rhea L

12-04-2007, 10:11 PM

Now the question: would you turn the page?

Hell yes. Even though it's not something I'd normally pick up in a bookstore.

*takes notes*

Judg

12-05-2007, 05:35 AM

I'm not into bleak novels, or seamy underside stories, but I would probably turn the page anyway. You're right, the prose is gorgeous and would make me more favourably inclined.

James D. Macdonald

12-05-2007, 07:30 AM

What I particularly like is the way the sentence rhythms imitate the mental processes of the protagonist.

maestrowork

12-05-2007, 07:41 AM

What I particularly like is the way the sentence rhythms imitate the mental processes of the protagonist.

Which makes it interesting because it's in second person.

chroniclemaster1

12-05-2007, 08:01 AM

Would you recommend ever choosing 2nd person for a narrator? I mean for a whole story? This demonstrates some interesting things, but I don't feel that's one of the elements you'd actually want to copy is it?

maestrowork

12-05-2007, 08:29 AM

I was wondering wouldn't it be better done in first person? To me, there's just something off about second person (and present tense at that -- although the tense isn't what I have a problem with). Consider the same text done in 1st person:

I am not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at this time of the morning. But here I am, and I cannot say that the terrain is entirely unfamiliar, although the details are fuzzy. I am at a nightclub talking to a girl with a shaved head. The club is either Heartbreak or the Lizard Lounge. All might come clear if I could just slip into the bathroom and do a little more Bolivian Marching Powder. Then again, it might not. A small voice inside me insists that this epidemic lack of clarity is a result of too much of that already. The night has already turned on that imperceptible pivot where two A.M. changes to six A.M. I know this moment has come and gone, but I am not yet willing to concede that I have crossed the line beyond which all is gratuitous damage and the palsy of unraveled nerve endings. Somewhere back there I could have cut my losses, but I rode past that moment on a comet trail of white powder and now I am trying to hang on to the rush. My brain at this moment is composed of brigades of tiny Bolivian soldiers. They are tired and muddy from their long march through the night. There are holes in their boots and they are hungry. They need to be fed. They need Bolivian Marching Powder.

The only reason I could think of that second person works better is that the narrator has a different vocabulary, personality and coherence/intelligence than the protagonist, which is a surrogate for the readers.

Nonetheless, I think it's well-written and I would definitely turn the page. That tells me that if written well, anything is possible.

Monkey

12-05-2007, 08:29 AM

I play roleplaying games, and to me, the 2nd person narration sounds exactly like a game master. I kept slipping into game mode, either imagining the passage to be written in a RPG sourcebook or expecting it to end, "What do you do next?"

Of course, part of me was reminded of the old Choose Your Own Adventure titles...at the end, I wouldn't have been surprised to see, "Turn to page 32".

So, basically, I was thoroughly distracted the whole time. I don't think I would have read further, despite the fascinating use of language, because the 2nd person narration kept sending my mind elsewhere.

blacbird

12-05-2007, 08:38 AM

Ditto what Maestro just said. No matter how many times I look at this book (and there have been several), I can't get more than a couple of pages into it without being overwhelmed by the sense that the 2nd-person narration is pure gimmickry, an affectation.

Well, I guess it worked, considering the sales success. But I'm not about to try it.

As a digression, I've just begun reading another novel in a narrative style I don't usually like much: first-person present-tense. But it's a wonder, and worth a read for anybody:

The Moviegoer, by Walker Percy.

caw

chroniclemaster1

12-05-2007, 09:54 AM

Ditto what Maestro just said. No matter how many times I look at this book (and there have been several), I can't get more than a couple of pages into it without being overwhelmed by the sense that the 2nd-person narration is pure gimmickry, an affectation.

As a digression, I've just begun reading another novel in a narrative style I don't usually like much: first-person present-tense.

I agree. 2nd person is too unusual. You only hear it in relatively specific contexts direct conversations that you're having, etc., that books don't mimic well. It sounds affected. Strange to hear a narrative written like this.

Interesting. 1st person present tense is one of the biggies. I won't pretend that I've ever written anything worthwhile in it, I'm a 3rd person present tense kinda guy. But I'm surprised to hear that someone actively dislikes it. Any particular reason? And do you have any idea why this story doesn't set off your spider sense on this one?

blacbird

12-05-2007, 10:34 AM

Interesting. 1st person present tense is one of the biggies. I won't pretend that I've ever written anything worthwhile in it, I'm a 3rd person present tense kinda guy. But I'm surprised to hear that someone actively dislikes it. Any particular reason? And do you have any idea why this story doesn't set off your spider sense on this one?

For starts, you'll see a variety of opinions here on first/present narration. So this one is only mine, and I don't pretend it's gospel or anything like that. I've just seen a lot of stuff in that combo of person/tense that drifts into puerile introspection that doesn't interest or engage me. I think it works better in short stories than in novels.

But I picked up Percy's novel for a couple of reasons. The first being that I heard a very interesting interview with him on NPR a couple of weeks ago. The second being that I lived in New Orleans, the setting for the novel, back in the early 1980s.

A third reason emerged as I read the early portion: I didn't consciously notice the narrative style until I was about ten pages along. By that time, I was well-gaffed. The guy can write the way Tiger Woods plays golf.

I'll pass along a short example of what he can do. Undoubtedly it helps if you have some personal experience of The Easy (for instance, the terms "lower" and "up" refer to the direction the Mississippi flows there, which is actually north), but even without that, I think this is effective stuff. It's a description of the narrator getting off a bus on the Esplanade, a big boulevard (I lived for a time half a block off it) that bounds the northern edge of the French Quarter:

I alight at Esplanade in a smell of roasting coffee and creosote and walk up Royal Street. The lower Quarter is the best part. The ironwork on the balconies sags like rotten lace. Little French cottages hide behind high walls. Through deep sweating carriageways one catches glimpses of courtyards gone to jungle.

Rotten lace! Two perfect words that say almost everything. I wanna grow up to write that well.

caw

pdr

12-05-2007, 04:03 PM

2nd is perfect.

You get just that much more distance than you would with 1st and this is a character who is out of his skull and at a distance from himself.

1st requires that he is more self aware and noticing inside his head. Your example for us, Maestro, shows, to me anyway, that self awareness. But 2nd lets us see him looking at himself, all fuddled and confused, from outside his head. Clever and brilliant.

I think I'd hate the actual story, life's tough enough without reading about idiots who do such daft things to themselves, but I'd like to see how the writer keeps up the POV and how he ends it.

maestrowork

12-05-2007, 04:17 PM

You get just that much more distance than you would with 1st and this is a character who is out of his skull and at a distance from himself.

1st requires that he is more self aware and noticing inside his head. Your example for us, Maestro, shows, to me anyway, that self awareness. But 2nd lets us see him looking at himself, all fuddled and confused, from outside his head. Clever and brilliant.

I get that. But again, 2nd is odd to me -- it's somewhere between 1st and 3rd. There's this out of body feel to it: It's difficult to get "involved" when there's someone constantly addressing you (the reader) as the protagonist. I just wonder if it's sustainable (obviously, I've never read the book).

pdr

12-05-2007, 04:30 PM

I like 2nd. I've read a lot in 2nd and used it a few times. It is very useful.

I haven't read the book either. U.J. does he stay in 2nd all through or does he change POVs?
I think if I were writing this I would use other POVs as well.

James D. Macdonald

12-05-2007, 07:24 PM

The narrator stays in 2nd person all the way through. Which may be part of why this book is so short. It's at the bottom end of novel-length.

What the various opinions about person show is that there's no one right way. What's right for one reader may be totally wrong for another. Which is why there are many books by many writers, not just the One Perfect Novel. (One definition of "novel" is "a book-length work of prose fiction with a flaw.")

Another famous use of first-person present-tense is All Quiet on the Western Front (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0449213943/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/).

Stew21

12-06-2007, 12:07 AM

I like the second person in this instance. It allows intimacy with the main character with a clearer perspective than MC first person could give (based on the assumption that the MC is doped up at 2 AM in a club). The writing is very compelling, the prose is beautiful, and I absolutely would turn the page.

Sailor Kenshin

12-06-2007, 12:16 AM

I'm afraid I wouldn't turn the page because second-person irritates the you-know-what out of me, and I don't enjoy reading about that sort of protagonist.

But the analysis was both excellent and eye-opening!

blacbird

12-06-2007, 12:26 AM

One definition of "novel" is "a book-length work of prose fiction with a flaw."

Only one flaw?

caw

maestrowork

12-06-2007, 12:54 AM

I think I remember Uncle Jim talking about this: he was talking about a MAJOR flaw. Each novel allows only one major flaw (plot, character, etc.); more than one it's most likely not publishable.

blacbird

12-06-2007, 01:00 AM

I am so screwed.

caw

pdr

12-06-2007, 04:34 AM

Wow! If he stays in 2nd all the way through then I bet the book has a depressing end!

Thank you for introducing me to it, UJ, I've ordered it from my on-line bookshop.

blacbird, stop it. The more you tell yourself that you're no good, the more you'll make it come true!

Akuma

12-06-2007, 08:58 AM

I think I remember Uncle Jim talking about this: he was talking about a MAJOR flaw. Each novel allows only one major flaw (plot, character, etc.); more than one it's most likely not publishable.

I love and respect our sagacious Uncle Jim as much as the next guy, but I'm going to resist this law. And don't tell me it isn't a law, because Uncle's advice is taken to heart by everyone--the man has his own thread for a good reason.

Still, a person's life usually has more than one MAJOR flaw. If that means I won't get published, then I'll just work harder.

James D. Macdonald

12-06-2007, 09:20 AM

Your characters can have more than one problem. In fact, I encourage you to beat your characters severely about the head and shoulders.

Ava Jarvis

12-06-2007, 09:46 AM

I don't think Uncle Jim is talking about people or characters.... he's talking about the book as a whole, the narrative as a whole.

Characters can have many flaws. People can have many flaws. Most people and characters have multiple major flaws.

But the narrative itself can probably only sustain one major flaw. We're not talking little flaws here, like whether it's first person or third person, or if there are too many adverbs; we're talking gigantic cracks in the storytelling, like having a character that only remembers the last 24 hours (and events take place beyond 24 hours, for years in fact). Such things can be intentional--for instance, Gene Wolfe's Latros in the Mist--but then you need to provide scaffolding and support around the flaw.

Flaws have a tendency to push readers away. Major flaws actually cut off part of your audience entirely--some people aren't going to be willing to get through the disjointedness of Latros or even the multiple head jumping in Lonesome Dove. If you have two such major flaws, even if they're intentional--and worse if they're not intentional--it will likely stress the work too much.

I think that's what he meant.

maestrowork

12-06-2007, 02:14 PM

By flaws I don't mean character flaws, bad situations, etc. Of course, go nuts with it. By flaws I mean "major plot hole" for example. Or a bad mid-book. Flaw as in "something isn't right about this novel."

Akuma

12-06-2007, 11:08 PM

Ah, I see.

My bad, carry on.

James D. Macdonald

12-06-2007, 11:56 PM

Time for another line-by-line:

When Christopher Ransom opened his eyes he was on his back, looking up into a huddle of Japanese faces shimmering in a pool of artificial light. Who were these people? Then he placed them. These were his fellow karate-ka, members of his dojo. And there stood the sensei, broad nose skewed to the left side of his face, broken in the finals at the Junior All-Japan Karate Tournament fifteen years ago. Ransom was pleased that he could recall this detail. Collect enough of the details and the larger picture might take care of itself.

The sensei asked if he was okay. Ransom lifted his head. Turquoise and magenta disks played at the edge of his vision. He was hoisted to his feet; suddenly the landscape looked as if it was flipped on its side, the surface of the parking lot standing vertical like a wall and the façade of the gym lying flat where the ground should be. Then the scene righted itself, as if on hinges.

That's the first page from Ransom (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0747553661/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) by Jay McInerney. (Please note how short a page is. Three pages a day for three months is a novel. It's easy ... all you have to do is sit there and do it.)

Okay, let's look at this page sentence-by-sentence.

When Christopher Ransom opened his eyes he was on his back, looking up into a huddle of Japanese faces shimmering in a pool of artificial light.

A person in a place with a problem. This is a classic opening form; you'd be hard-pressed to do better. We learn the protagonist's name by the third word.

Christopher means "Christ bearer." "Ransom" suggests salvation. (C.S. Lewis used the character name to suggest that meaning in his Space Trilogy; so did I in my Mageworlds books.) We've got baptismal imagery here. I don't know if the author will run with that, but the possibility is open to him. Nothing happens by chance in a novel; every word is an individual artistic choice.

We're in the absolutely classic third-person past-tense. Again, an excellent choice. Only use some other person and some other tense for the very best of reasons.

Who were these people?

That's the character's internal thoughts. Not marked with italic, but obvious from the context. A simple sentence.

Then he placed them.

Still simpler. The effect is of someone returning to consciousness.

These were his fellow karate-ka, members of his dojo.

Further defining place. Note use of foreign words (but still words that the average educated US readers should understand). More complex grammar. More about the protagonist too: We learn that Ransom himself is a karate-ka, and belongs to a dojo.

And there stood the sensei, broad nose skewed to the left side of his face, broken in the finals at the Junior All-Japan Karate Tournament fifteen years ago.

The sentences grow longer and more convoluted as the protagonist returns to consciousness. We have a second character introduced, with a telling detail, and a bit of history. More implications; this is full-contact karate.

Ransom was pleased that he could recall this detail.

Drop back to simpler grammar. We're focusing back on the protagonist.

Collect enough of the details and the larger picture might take care of itself.

End of the first paragraph with a philosophical statement, and perhaps foreshadowing of the overall shape of the novel.

The sensei asked if he was okay.

Paragraph two starts with a simple sentence, indirect discourse. Redirection to the second character.

Ransom lifted his head.

Very simple sentence. First physical motion in the book, and it's very small.

Turquoise and magenta disks played at the edge of his vision.

Sensual detail. But complex words: turquoise and magenta, not green and red. We're learning, not by being told directly, that Ransom was clocked upside the head, hard enough to knock him out.

He was hoisted to his feet; suddenly the landscape looked as if it was flipped on its side, the surface of the parking lot standing vertical like a wall and the façade of the gym lying flat where the ground should be.

Very long, compound-complex sentence, weird imagery. More definition on where he is -- in a parking lot. Ransom is passive here, giving us the impression of weakness. Whatever he told the sensei, about being okay, he's clearly not okay. This will slow the reader down.

Then the scene righted itself, as if on hinges.

Contrast: simpler sentence. Ransom is the observer. And a lovely image.

We've seen bunches of telling details. The prose is smooth. The imagery is outstanding.

Again, the author is concentrating on building scene and defining character. Plot hasn't yet arrived, for all that there's been some physical movement. The movement here has mostly been mental, from unconsciousness to observation.

So we've learned quite a bit more about the character and his situation/problem, even though some major mysteries are present. We don't know why he was on his back in the parking lot. It's night time (he's out of doors yet there's artificial light). A parking lot is an odd place to be having a formal karate bout. Was he mugged, despite his karate training?

The protagonist has a Western name, although the scene seems to be in Japan, or at least in a Japanese community. Lots to wonder about here.

So: the master question. Do you want to turn the page?

Sailor Kenshin

12-07-2007, 12:45 AM

Of course. It's got Japanese stuff in it. :tongue

James D. Macdonald

12-09-2007, 08:39 PM

It's time for the annual Christmas Challenge!

This year, we're going to write a ten-page short story. Beginning, middle, end. The protagonist is fourteen years old and lives in your city, present day, same gender as you are. Your audience is mixed gender, age twelve.

Now the fun part: take a die. Roll it.

If the first roll is 1, 2, or 3, write in third person. If it's 4 or 5, write in first person. If it's 6, write in second person.

Roll it again. If the second roll is 1, 2, or 3, write in past tense. If it's 4 or 5, write in present tense. If it's 6, write in future tense.

Write three pages (750 words) per day until you're finished, starting today. Then put the story aside until Christmas. Then read it aloud, and rewrite it until you love it.

On Wednesday the 2nd of January, go to Duotrope (http://www.duotrope.com/) and find five appropriate markets (paying semi-pro or better rates). Send your story to each of them in turn, following their guidelines to the letter. Don't let the story sleep over when/if gets rejected: send it back out the same day.

James D. Macdonald

12-09-2007, 08:42 PM

Of course. It's got Japanese stuff in it.

This points up a serious issue:

Some readers will love a story because, for example, it has Japanese stuff in it; they'll read anything, no matter how dreadful, based on one criterion.

Other readers will hate a story because, for example, it has Japanese stuff in it; they'll refuse to read anything, no matter how wonderful, based on one criterion.

We as writers can't do anything about either of those cases. All we can do is write something that pleases us and hope for the best.

pdr

12-10-2007, 05:32 AM

I've just had a shortlisted story in a prestigious comp, complimented for its originality and topic, rejected by an editor as unoriginal and on a boringly overused topic.

Yes, I laughed too. I've sold enough to know there's an editor out there who will like it. It's like UJ said:

We as writers can't do anything about either of those cases. All we can do is write something that pleases us and hope for the best.

Sailor Kenshin

12-10-2007, 08:01 AM

This points up a serious issue:

Some readers will love a story because, for example, it has Japanese stuff in it; they'll read anything, no matter how dreadful, based on one criterion.

Other readers will hate a story because, for example, it has Japanese stuff in it; they'll refuse to read anything, no matter how wonderful, based on one criterion.

We as writers can't do anything about either of those cases. All we can do is write something that pleases us and hope for the best.

I was sort of kind of kidding. I think.

gp101

12-13-2007, 08:05 AM

UJ,

Once again, thanks for the time you spend on your thread, and especially for breaking down, line-by-line, excerpts from pubbed novels.

My question is in regards to the actual excerpts. Do you need to seek an author's (or publisher's) permission before posting a modest excerpt on these boards? What are the boundaries?

I only ask because I've been itching to post some examples from openings (and other parts of various novels) in my preferred section/genre, Mystery/Suspense/THriller, in the hopes that not only will the excerpts help everybody in the genre see how others do things, but that other members will post excerpts that I would otherwise not read and can learn from. I think it would help all of us (and maybe turn us onto new authors). But I'm not sure how much (if any) of a pubbed novel I can post.

I occasionally see excerpts in other threads for various reasons, but I'm thinking if I start a thread focusing on "how others do it" (with permission of the MODS, of course) that the entire thread will contain endless excerpts from endless novels. Is that a recipe for disaster, or is a page or paragraph short enough not to attract the anger of a publishing house? I would want to keep it to positive posts, as in, excerpts we should admire and maybe emulate; not the opposite--examples of pubbed prose that we find hideous and should be avoided.

I don't plan on doing line-by's like you do because I don't have the authority a published writer has. But I would explain what I like about an excerpt, and I hope others would post excerpts with similar comments.

What do you think?

Thanks,

gp