Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[James D. Macdonald]

I can boil it all down to three words:

Write, submit, repeat.

Everything else is commentary.

[aertep]

Nubling, I don't blame you for feeling daunted but I'd hate to see you cheat yourself out of all the great stuff in the thread. You could think of it as a useful textbook, something to read when you take a break from writing. You don't have to do it all at once. Make note of where you left off, and come back to it when you have time. It'll be here.

[Jennifer L]

I'm a newbie to posting here (though a long time lurker) and I can't believe I just finished reading this entire thread. Even the arguments about "and then."

I've been a writer for a number of years, mostly in non-fiction. A little over a year ago, I rearranged my work (and life) so I could spend more time and energy on fiction. I've been exploring (i.e., writing as much crap as I can in order to have "clay"). I have an agent who is repping a mystery now and is looking at an historical romance I recently finished. These are two genres I read extensively in. (Please, do not mock me for the romance. What can I say?) I have no questions about these works. Either someone will buy them or not, and my attention is on other matters now.

The problem concerns a science fiction novel I drafted last year and which wants my attention now. I'm a huge fan of fantasy and have been all of my life. Terry Pratchett is one of two novelists whose books I buy in hardcover. I love fantasy. I have a Fabulous Idea for a fantasy novel, though said Idea seems totally indifferent to being written at the moment. But the book that concerns us (or at least me) is science fiction, and I quit reading science fiction in the late 80s. Which means this book has probably been festering in my brain since late adolescence and I should probably drown it, but it doesn't want to drown.

This is where the request for homework comes in. I need to catch up on the last twenty years of science fiction to have any hope of creating a decent science fiction manuscript, it seems to me. Who MUST I read, and (for bonus points), why?

Thanks for all of your thoughts.

Jennifer

[Judg]

Here is a link, just for you:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49506

[Nangleator]

Either someone will buy them or not, and my attention is on other matters now.
This seems like the ideal attitude a writer should aspire to.

[Jennifer L]

Thanks for the link.

Note to self: figure out how to use "search" function before posting newbie questions . . . .

Jennifer

[James D. Macdonald]

A lot of the books in the Best SF thread are quite old.

For What's Happening Now:

Anything by Ken MacLeod. Anything by Robert Charles Wilson. Last year's Nebula winners. This year's Hugo nominees. Three books chosen at random from the SF shelf of your local bookstore, provided you've never heard of the authors.

After that ... write your book.

[avocadodesperado]

This might be a good time to express gratitude and good wishes toward someone we owe much to.

Happy Birthday, Uncle Jim!

[chaosof9]

Happy Birthday, Uncle Jim. Heard you read at Boskone. Loved it! Love you. Love your wife. Love your daughter. You have no idea who I am; do you? Oh well. We can't all be rich and famous.

[Avalon]

Happy birthday, Jim! Linda from VPX here. I just wanted to drop in and say thank you for all your advice and all the time you take to teach us, and to hope you're enjoying cake or good whiskey (or both, if your tastebuds are up to it) to celebrate.

Many happy returns! Nobody deserves 'em more.

[krylyr_dave]

Happy birthday, Uncle Jim! I wish you all the best in your birthday glory!

(this is Dave from VPX)

[J.S Greer]

This might be a good time to express gratitude and good wishes toward someone we owe much to.

Happy Birthday, Uncle Jim!

I'll add to that. Happy B-day!:partyguy:

I like what you say for the most part(very few exceptions), and I love this thread. Thanks for everything youve helped writers like me learn.

[James D. Macdonald]

Ah, shucks, folks.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Ah, shucks, folks.


You should see the birthday thread devoted to you in Office Party, Uncle Jim.

[BogWitch64]

Joyous Tidings of the Day!
Ok, everyone said 'happy birthday;' I had to come up with something different.
A toast to Jim MacDonald!
May all your Scotch be 60 years old; may all your cigars be from Cuba; may you live another 53 (54?) years and then give it yet another go around; may your children always be grateful; may your wife always be warm; and last but not least, may words always be your kind companions, filling your head with Uncle Jim plots and Uncle Jim wisdom and Uncle Jim wit.
Your VP apostles toast you!
Much love, Jim. I hope your day was a happy one.
(Terri-Lynne VPX.)

[aertep]

HBD, UJ! Coming to your party west-coast late. I hope you had a lovely day -- today and always.

[Raphee]

My best wishes for the happy day.

[prusik]

Oh, d'oh! I missed the birthday party. Happy birthday, Uncle Jim!

It's been almost 5 months and I'm still learning from your lecture at VPX.

[avocadodesperado]

Question for Uncle Jim:

I'm in a writing group where we encourage each other to meet writing goals, usually a given number of words per day or week. This has been working well for first draft words, but several people now want to edit short stories or articles they've written since the group started.

I've tried to avoid the question of counting words toward progress while revising. But some of the members are wondering whether they should be writing the first draft for one piece on the same day that they're revising another piece. One of them made this comment: "I'm not sure I'm capable of revising one thing while working on something new; reading around the web, I don't think many people, at least in the self-selected group of writers who blog their process, can."

I know you've recommended writing for two hours a day, with additional time for revising, research, and other writing tasks.

In your experience, do very many professional writers revise one piece while writing another one? Is this sort of multi-tasking an important skill to develop? How should new writers approach this?

[James D. Macdonald]

I don't know how most writers do it. I know that I personally write new stuff and revise older stuff on the same day, just at different times of the day.

This is another case of whatever works for you.

You will eventually have to revise the material you've written (unless you're capable of doing publishable first drafts (and there are some people who can do that)). How your writers' group decides to count that is up to them.

Please let us know what they decide.

[Raphee]

Just as an aside to above: East of Eden by Stienbeck was published from the original MS without any changes made by the publisher. Well at least the copy that I have.

[James D. Macdonald]

Just as an aside to above: East of Eden by Stienbeck was published from the original MS without any changes made by the publisher. Well at least the copy that I have.

Hunh?

Do you have any information that it was the first draft? How many drafts did Steinbeck write before the version he submitted?

(Oh -- publishers don't usually make any changes to a manuscript (other than correcting typoes and applying house style). They may request revisions, but it's the authors job to either make them or not, as the author pleases.)

(Example of house style: Numbers below 99 are expressed in numerals, numbers one hundred and above are expressed in words. (Other publishers may have another style for numbers.) Another example of house style: Extracts such as poetry or letters are set off by linebreaks, indented, and set in italics. (Other publishers may have other styles.) Yet another example of house style: The serial comma is used. (Other publishers may not use the serial comma.))

[Raphee]

I'll look up the copy, for what it explicity states. I hav'nt seen it in a while and gave the info from memory.
I do remember the book saying that this is the original MS without any revisions on the first or second page. and I am yet to see another book give the same remark; other than the Holy Books. :)

[Nakhlasmoke]

Hunh?

... Yet another example of house style: The serial comma is used. (Other publishers may not use the serial comma.))

What! not using the serial comma would kill me. I t would hurt my fragile writerly soul. Or something.

[Jennifer L]

A week or two ago, Uncle Jim gave me a homework assignment so that I could catch up on the last twenty years of science fiction. Now I'm reporting in.

I was immensely cheered to see that people were more important than the science/machines in the books that I read. I think this was one of the reasons I stopped reading much SF back in the late 80s; the emphasis was more on the technology and science than on the characters, and that was fine when I was a thirteen year old geek up to my elbows in small engine parts but not so compelling when I got a little older.

Reading Joe Haldeman's Camouflage showed that even a frequently visited subject (aliens among us) can keep you up late if it's done well enough.

Ken Macleod's Dark Light showed how complex world building can be without drowning the reader in details; I know the Macleod knows everything about his universe but he doesn't have to share everything with me. He also is a master of revealing information exactly when you need it and not before. And his subplot on what makes a man a man is often laugh out loud funny while at the same time thought-provoking. Even though science and technology are at the forefront here, it's the characters I care about -- and Macleod has a sure hand at making every character a protagonist, so that I'm rooting for one character until the viewpoint shifts and I find myself rooting for his antagonist, who is now the protagonist. Intelligent and engaging.

So all of this was very exciting and encouraging to me, motivating me to get back to work on my own SF manuscript. But then (I almost said "and then" but, whew, caught myself in time) I picked up Robert Charles Wilson's Spin. And I will never write that well, not if I tried for ten lifetimes. I have a little talent, a useful little talent, and it has not failed me so far, but it is by no means capable of anything approaching Wilson's mastery.

Now what? I feel like I should just put the pen down and back slowly away from the paper.

Ordinarily I'm pretty sure that I can hold my own with other writers, and people not related to me have actually remarked on my ability to put sentences together without hurting myself, so I'm not much given to self doubt. We've all picked up books and gone, eh, I could do better myself, I *have* done better myself. . . but only rarely do I pick up a book and think, I'm not even in this man's zip code.

I'm pretty sure Uncle Jim will tell me to write the damned book, but I'm curious about whether this has happened to other people and how they use it to motivate them.

If there's a way to include tequila and/or chocolate in the solution to this problem, I would be really grateful.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jennifer Lawler

[aertep]

Jennifer, I don't read much sci fi, but I enjoyed your eloquent review. I may have to read Wilson now.

I understand how you feel. Here's my take on this. There are so many great writers that their brilliance can intimidate you if you let it happen. I will never come close to what Margaret Atwood does (for example). She's a master. But as I develop my own style, I guarantee she will never come close to what I do, either.

Yeah, yeah, she may not want to, but that's beside the point.

You've got your voice. Wilson's got his. Being unique, being yourself, creating your own voice/style/brilliance on the page will make you shine.

[James D. Macdonald]

Yes, write the darned book anyway.

Now Wilson -- top talent, top of his game. But you can be certain of one thing: there exists a writer of whom Wilson says, "I can never be that good. I'll never be in his league."

You might try re-typing the first chapter of Spin to see exactly what he did and how he did it. Observe his technique.

It's the chess metaphor again: we may say of a Grand Master "I'll never be that good," but on a move-by-move basis we can understand each move.

[James D. Macdonald]

See also: Mikhail Tal and his hippopotamus story (http://felixstowechess.tripod.com/quotes.htm). It is illustrative.

[allenparker]

Jim, in a historical sci-fi/fantsy novel, is point on accuracy of the history a requirement? Can the author take literary license and do so with the confidence that even those that know better will be okay with this?

Or is this a case where the writer mst write well enough for the readers to forget their knowledge and go with the story?

In other words, how accurate does the history have to be?

awp

[James D. Macdonald]

In other words, how accurate does the history have to be?

As accurate as possible provided you're still able to tell your story.

[Judg]

Jennifer, you don't have to be the best. Superlatives are your enemy. I can think of probably a dozen writers that I'll never hold a candle to, and you guys could probably supply another 100. But I don't have to be the best to be happy. I'll do the best I can, and I've got enough ego to think I've got a good chance of getting published. I'm probably delusional, but I'll never know till I've tried, right?

So my goal is not to write as well as So-and-so, it's to write well enough to get a first novel published. And then to write something better. That will make me happy. And if I make some real money along the way, I'll be very happy.

[allenparker]

The trick is not to write as well as so and so. The trick is to write the best you can. to strain to glean every ounce of novelist emotion from your heart and then spill it over a page.

Incidently, you are the best writer in your novel. No other person can write your novel as good as you.

The best is relative. I am the best nudist humor writer in this place. (I am the only nudist humor writer.)

Taking relative stands may actually hurt your chances of growing as a writer. If you think it impossible to be as good as so and so, you may not strive to be that good. If you think you are the best, you may cuddle on your success and not grow.

Just be glad you are the writer you are, then strive to be better.

Now that I have called the kettle black, this little pot will go back to working on his novel.

[James D. Macdonald]

No novel is ever perfect. It's just the best you can make it at the time. Let other people tell you if they enjoyed it.

The other day I watched Hoodwinked (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/B000EQ5UHS/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) on DVD. That's an animated re-telling of the Little Red Riding Hood story. Pretty good film.

What I did afterward was watch the special features, with the director's commentary. Particularly the deleted scenes and the extended scenes. What struck me was how many times the director said words to the effect of, "I loved this bit, but the point had already been made," or "I cut this for pace."

[aertep]

No novel is ever perfect. It's just the best you can make it at the time. Let other people tell you if they enjoyed it.

A friend mentioned he enjoyed a piece I published in 2003. I thanked him, then re-read it. I would write it so differently today. I'm a different writer now, a better writer.

I wonder if Tom Robbins cringes when he reads his early stuff, or if Umberto Eco wishes he could take back an essay from his youth?

[Pagey's_Girl]

A friend mentioned he enjoyed a piece I published in 2003. I thanked him, then re-read it. I would write it so differently today. I'm a different writer now, a better writer.

I wonder if Tom Robbins cringes when he reads his early stuff, or if Umberto Eco wishes he could take back an essay from his youth?

I'm going through that now - I just started looking over a rather long tale I wrote about - oh crap, five years ago (yikes!) - which I thought was really good at the time. There are some really good parts in it, but yeah, it's pretty much a mess. But it's also interesting to see how the MC, who's my favorite out of all my characters, has changed for the better over the years. I didn't even realize how passive and damaged she was at first.

[James D. Macdonald]

You're learning, growing, and getting set to wrestle with stronger angels.


Also: I just posted this in another thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1165175&postcount=8), but thought I'd put it here, too:

A scene is a unit that has a recognizable beginning, middle, and end.

The scene ends with a mini-climax that leaves the reader wanting to continue. The next scene usually has moved in time, space, or viewpoint.
__________________

[allenparker]

A scene is a unit that has a recognizable beginning, middle, and end.

The scene ends with a mini-climax that leaves the reader wanting to continue. The next scene usually has moved in time, space, or viewpoint.
__________________

I find it interesting and sometimes frustrating that Jim seems to define things in one third of the discussion others use.

In order to reach this goal, I believe that I will stop talking when


awp

[Meerkat]

Uncle Jim, in another thread, you stated that "show, don't tell" is not a Procrustean Bed. Now that I've googled that happy term, and realize that it is not about seafood allergies, can you tell us of any standard that you believe would or should warrant Procrustean Bed rigidity in writing?

[Sailor Kenshin]

A friend mentioned he enjoyed a piece I published in 2003. I thanked him, then re-read it. I would write it so differently today. I'm a different writer now, a better writer.

I wonder if Tom Robbins cringes when he reads his early stuff, or if Umberto Eco wishes he could take back an essay from his youth?


Just about everyone does.

[James D. Macdonald]

...can you tell us of any standard that you believe would or should warrant Procrustean Bed rigidity in writing?

Not so much.

The only real rule is: If It Works, It's Right.

The thing you should never forget is that you are writing for your readers.

Beyond that, it's all art. There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays....

[Meerkat]

Scary. No crutch there... I mean thank you, for the answers. Even if they imply more work to be done!

[Nangleator]

...Even if they imply more work to be done!
Hey, what else were you going to do that day but write? :)

[Pagey's_Girl]

Scary. No crutch there... I mean thank you, for the answers. Even if they imply more work to be done!

Scary, but liberating, too...

I think I need to learn to not worry so much about what I "should" be writing and just write.

[Raphee]

Now Wilson -- top talent, top of his game. But you can be certain of one thing: there exists a writer of whom Wilson says, "I can never be that good. I'll never be in his league."

Well said. I'm always judging myself against authors I like and that makes me feel as if I just cannot write; at least the way I should be writing.

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's what I might suggest: Take a writer you admire and attempt to "channel" him or her. Pretend to be that person and have him or her write your book for you.

(Don't worry that it won't be your book -- no matter how talented a parodist you might be, the work is original.)

Now other stuff: Found in another thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1168905) here at AW, a piece of submission-tracker software. http://www.download.com/3000-20-10027591.html

It looks like it would mostly be useful for short stories, but still....

Now, how to do it by hand.

Get yourself a file folder for each of your stories.

In that file folder, put a hard-copy of your finished story. Put in an archive electronic copy of the finished story. Come up with a list of all the possible markets for the story, arranged in some order that pleases you (highest-to-lowest paying, most prestigious-to-not-so-prestigious, or something else). Print that out and put it in the folder.

Make a photocopy of that story. Send it to the top market on your list. Note the date on the hardcopy list. When/if you get a rejection, write in the date, cross out that address, and send out fresh photocopy that same day to the next market on your list.

Continue until either the story sells, or you reach the bottom of the list. If the story sells, put a copy of the contract in the file folder. Note on the top of the folder when the reprint rights will come back to you. If you see any reviews of the story, clip them and put them in the folder.

If you reach the bottom of the list, after you've crossed out the last address, put a date one year in the future on the top of the file folder, and put it your file drawer. One year on, re-read the story and see if you want to revise it and start sending it around again. See if new markets have opened.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Here's what I might suggest: Take a writer you admire and attempt to "channel" him or her. Pretend to be that person and have him or her write your book for you.

(Don't worry that it won't be your book -- no matter how talented a parodist you might be, the work is original.)

Now other stuff: Found in another thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1168905) here at AW, a piece of submission-tracker software. http://www.download.com/3000-20-10027591.html

It looks like it would mostly be useful for short stories, but still....

Now, how to do it by hand.

Get yourself a file folder for each of your stories.

In that file folder, put a hard-copy of your finished story. Put in an archive electronic copy of the finished story. Come up with a list of all the possible markets for the story, arranged in some order that pleases you (highest-to-lowest paying, most prestigious-to-not-so-prestigious, or something else). Print that out and put it in the folder.

Make a photocopy of that story. Send it to the top market on your list. Note the date on the hardcopy list. When/if you get a rejection, write in the date, cross out that address, and send out fresh photocopy that same day to the next market on your list.

Continue until either the story sells, or you reach the bottom of the list. If the story sells, put a copy of the contract in the file folder. Note on the top of the folder when the reprint rights will come back to you. If you see any reviews of the story, clip them and put them in the folder.

If you reach the bottom of the list, after you've crossed out the last address, put a date one year in the future on the top of the file folder, and put it your file drawer. One year on, re-read the story and see if you want to revise it and start sending it around again. See if new markets have opened.

So I'm not the only one who 'channels' another (better!) writer? :D

Ooo, I do that submission folder thingie, except I write the info directly on the folder, because pieces of paper can get lost.

[Jennifer L]

So I did my next assignment (type a chapter of Wilson's book to deconstruct it) and I figured out that what I found so captivating about his work was a) the way he uses a telling detail, rather than a lengthy description and b) how he reveals emotion without saying what the character is feeling.

This was encouraging because I have never been much given to lush description in my fiction, and now, instead of feeling like I have to wrestle paragraphs of description out of my brain, I realize that I just need to focus on the telling detail, the one that captures the setting, the character, the mood. The rest can be up to the reader.

The other is a little harder. I mean, after dint of intense effort I've moved from "She felt sad" to "Tears welled in her eyes" but the next stage seems a lot harder, and significantly more prone to purple prose that misses the mark ("An arrow of pain stabbed her heart at his cruel words and mocking laughter.") (I'm really quite good at bad writing.) My task is to figure out how to communicate that she feels pain without poking her until she cries (or stabbing her with arrows of pain).

So, combining this homework with Uncle Jim's new suggestion, I'll write emotion like Wilson does until I've got it figured out. Or maybe forever; I guess it doesn't matter 'cause it'll be me no matter what.

Thanks for everyone's comments, especially about cultivating my unique voice. I don't want to be Wilson, after all; I want to be me, only better than before. (Does that make me the six-million-dollar writer?)

Jennifer Lawler

[James D. Macdonald]

You, only better than before, is everyone's goal.

[limitedtimeauthor]

Now, how to do it by hand.

Get yourself a file folder for each of your stories.

In that file folder, put a hard-copy of your finished story. Put in an archive electronic copy of the finished story. Come up with a list of all the possible markets for the story, arranged in some order that pleases you (highest-to-lowest paying, most prestigious-to-not-so-prestigious, or something else). Print that out and put it in the folder.

Make a photocopy of that story. Send it to the top market on your list. Note the date on the hardcopy list. When/if you get a rejection, write in the date, cross out that address, and send out fresh photocopy that same day to the next market on your list.

Continue until either the story sells, or you reach the bottom of the list. If the story sells, put a copy of the contract in the file folder. Note on the top of the folder when the reprint rights will come back to you. If you see any reviews of the story, clip them and put them in the folder.

If you reach the bottom of the list, after you've crossed out the last address, put a date one year in the future on the top of the file folder, and put it your file drawer. One year on, re-read the story and see if you want to revise it and start sending it around again. See if new markets have opened.Ooh. This definitely appeals to my clerical side... :)

Thanks. That would work for articles too!

ltd.

[Brenda Hill]

[quote=Jennifer L;1136027]I'm a newbie to posting here (though a long time lurker) and I can't believe I just finished reading this entire thread. Even the arguments about "and then."

Jennifer, or anyone else, can you tell me where the discussion on 'and then' is located? I need a refresher.

When I first visited AW, I read page after page of Jim's thread about writing and have recommended them to several writers. Today, after reading several posts, I used the 'search' feature but must be doing something wrong as it didn't show results for 'and then' or even 'then.' But I know I'm not always using the features correctly as Jennifer's quote didn't show the right way.

[aertep]

I, too, would like to know how to use that search function more effectively. Thanks for asking, Brenda.

[James D. Macdonald]

You could go to one of the digest pages (Undiluted (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7987)) and use your browser's "Find On This Page" function.

For more general stuff, use Google.

Go to Google and in the search string type site:absolutewrite.com "Learn Writing With Uncle" (yes, use the quote marks) then your search terms. That seems to work pretty well.

[Brenda Hill]

Thanks, Jim. I'll try it.

I used the 'search within this thread' feature and entered 'and then' and 'then' but still no results. So it looks like I'll have to browse the two-hundred and some-odd pages. Oh well, it never hurts to brush up on other things as well.

Now I have to gather my supplies for a week: my diet Coke, coffee, tea, cookies, salad...

[James D. Macdonald]

The "Search Within This Thread" feature apparently ignores "common words."

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&hs=XYL&q=site%3Aabsolutewrite.com+%22learn+writing+with+u ncle%22+%22and+then%22&btnG=Search

[T. Nielsen Hayden]

And then the editor said, "Not everyone agrees with Jim Macdonald on that point."

[T. Nielsen Hayden]

Thanks for the kind words about Spin. If it's any consolation, Robert Charles Wilson has improved as a writer since I first got to know him. Admittedly, that's going on thirty years now. He's been serious about his writing all along.

Oh, and I'm just now going through the copyedit of Axis, Bob's first-ever sequel.

[Dawno]

I'm a newbie to posting here (though a long time lurker) and I can't believe I just finished reading this entire thread. Even the arguments about "and then."

Jennifer, or anyone else, can you tell me where the discussion on 'and then' is located? I need a refresher.

When I first visited AW, I read page after page of Jim's thread about writing and have recommended them to several writers. Today, after reading several posts, I used the 'search' feature but must be doing something wrong as it didn't show results for 'and then' or even 'then.' But I know I'm not always using the features correctly as Jennifer's quote didn't show the right way.

In the index to the thread you can find the links to the first "and then" discussion at #85 on this post: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=117007&postcount=10

[HConn]

Here's what I might suggest: Take a writer you admire and attempt to "channel" him or her. Pretend to be that person and have him or her write your book for you.

I've done something similar to this: When I get stuck on a plot point or feel like I'm not up to writing a particular scene, I imagine what some other, better writer would do in my situation and to that.

It's like those creativity tests, where people who thought they were very dull, and had very dull jobs, scored quite low. Then, when they were asked to answer the questions again as though they were painters or other creative people, they scored much higher.

How you view yourself affects what you can do.

[Brenda Hill]

Dawno, thank you, thank you! What a help. :hooray:

[Loretta]

quote: One trick to revision -- is to read the work aloud. Where you stumble, the reader will stumble. You'll notice different things, too, when you're reading aloud. You're using a different part of your brain than you are when reading silently.

I had to smile when I read this, I found that out the hard way. I've been writing for quite awhile, but only have one fully completed novel that I began editing for submissions. I stumbled on the fact that when I read the scenes out loud, I could immediately tell if they "sang" or not. I WISH I had known this sooner..but it was so refreshing to see it written in here as one of the things to do. It is an excellent way to proof your material....that and the coffee shop thing, which I borrowed out of Rowling's page, it kept me from suffering so much from cabin fever.

I'm finding this area very informative:) Thanks for this thread!

[smsarber]

BTW, I didn't say "no music," I said "no radio." Radios have announcers, disk jockeys, the news, weather ... things that will break your concentration, take you out of that place where the creative things happen.

I like music myself for writing ... I prefer requiems, but maybe I'm just strange.

Whatever helps you get into the state you need to be in....

But there's a warning coming.

Don't couple destructive things with you writing. If you light up a cigarette when you start writing, if you quit smoking you'll find you can't write any more.

Same with drinking booze. Same with eating bon-bons. Coupling bad habits with writing will mean that you'll never be able to shed the bad habits.

One of the popular images of writers is of the guy with a bottle of whisky beside the typewriter.

It probably won't make you a better writer, or even make you a writer at all. It will rot your liver and empty your bank account.

I listen to "Iron Maiden". It's all good. This is a good thread, Old Sage. Glad I yanked myself out of the "NEPAT" long enough to look around. I am going to start two hours a day tomorrow; for now, bed is calling.

[travelgal]

quote: One trick to revision -- is to read the work aloud. Where you stumble, the reader will stumble. You'll notice different things, too, when you're reading aloud. You're using a different part of your brain than you are when reading silently.

I had to smile when I read this, I found that out the hard way. I've been writing for quite awhile, but only have one fully completed novel that I began editing for submissions. I stumbled on the fact that when I read the scenes out loud, I could immediately tell if they "sang" or not. I WISH I had known this sooner..but it was so refreshing to see it written in here as one of the things to do. It is an excellent way to proof your material....that and the coffee shop thing, which I borrowed out of Rowling's page, it kept me from suffering so much from cabin fever.

I'm finding this area very informative:) Thanks for this thread!

A couple of critters had suggested this to me. Unfortunately, I read like a Dalek and stumble like a third-grade kid who hadn`t mastered reading. And nope, I`m not nervous in public; I`m a teacher. I worked in a library once, and read Roald (sp?) Dahl; yep, the funny guy to kids, and was told I made it boring. So, if I stumble on Dahl and make that boring, how do I review my MS that way?

If only I knew Anthony Hopkins. :e2bummed: He makes a telephone book interesting!

Welcome to the forums, Loretta.

[James D. Macdonald]

The idea is to use a different part of your brain when seeing your work. Getting a fresh view. Revision = re-vision. Looking again.

If this trick doesn't work for you ... there are others.

[WriterInChains]

The idea is to use a different part of your brain when seeing your work. Getting a fresh view. Revision = re-vision. Looking again.

If this trick doesn't work for you ... there are others.


Such as . . . ?

I just can't bring myself to do it since I spent nine months reading Shakespeare aloud. It reminds me of learning to play the violin when I was a kid. I'll keep trying periodically, but in the meantime other methods might work? I'll try them all.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom, it's deeply appreciated. :)

[James D. Macdonald]

How about ... copying the book out by hand? Retyping it from hard-copy. Turning the pages upside down and reading it.

All of these are mechanical ways of making the work different. Of using other parts of your brain.

The classic is putting the book in your desk drawer for three months.

If you've read your book on-screen up to now, read it in hardcopy. If you've read it in hardcopy, read it on-screen.

Oh -- here's a cheapie: Reprint your book in two-column justified ten-point Times New Roman, and read it in that form (presuming that you've been reading it in standard manuscript format). (On the other hand, if you've been setting your reading copy in TNR two-column -- set it in standard manuscript format and re-read it like that.)

I do like reading aloud, though. You don't have an audience other than yourself, so your public speaking skills don't matter.

[Niteowl]

If I may humbly chime in as an aspiring unpublished writer (I know, get in line, right?)

Some other tips I've read to help with editing (it may very well have been in the Uncle Jim's Digest thread)

- print it out in a different font than what you usually write in.
- edit it in a different place than where you write.
- read it backwards.
- try and cut 10% on each pass (this is from Stephen King's "On Writing")

[aadams73]

Changing font and line spacing works well for me.

[aertep]

Right now I'm reading a draft in hard copy that sat in a box for two months. (Usually I work on screen.) I knew, before I put it in that box, that I would have to cut like crazy.

Wow. What I didn't know was how easy it would be to cut, after letting it sit.

I think this is because of a couple of things: one is that I've had time away from it and don't remember it all, so I'm objective. The other is I'm a better writer than I was when I wrote the stuff I put in the box. For what it's worth, I've also been working on the back porch instead of at my desk.

So yeah, this stuff works!

[Ken Schneider]

If only I knew Anthony Hopkins.

Aertep knows Sir Anthony Hopkins. LOL. Winks at Aertep.

[aertep]

Ha! Yes, well, we don't use the "sir" here in La La Land.

[WriterInChains]

Oh -- here's a cheapie: Reprint your book in two-column justified ten-point Times New Roman, and read it in that form (presuming that you've been reading it in standard manuscript format).


Thanks! This is one I haven't tried yet. Maybe I'll try it in April, on the ms that's been composting since the end of December -- if I still can't read it aloud. :)

[smsarber]

I usually write everything longhand the night before, then do my first edit the next day when I enter it into the computer. That way there are only 4,968,153 errors per page to correct the next time.

[bsolah]

I think the 'sitting thing' is by far the best advice when it comes to editing. It allows you to become detached from the work. The reading aloud thing works because when you read in your head, it's the same state that you wrote in and you've settled into a rhythm. Changing that pattern makes you use another part of the brain and you see it from a different angle.

[James D. Macdonald]

I think the 'sitting thing' is by far the best advice when it comes to editing. It allows you to become detached from the work.

Something else I recommend is that you start writing something else while you're letting your work marinate in your desk drawer. That too will help cleanse your mind.

[bsolah]

Ok, on that note. I have a short story 'sitting' in my desk drawer and it has been for maybe 5 months. I don't feel ready to edit it as I haven't really embarked on any considerable new work since I recently gained my first full-time job and establishing a new routine has been difficult. I'd say I'm 'blocked' as well as I've been able to work on the tidying up of another short story.

Dr. Phil....uh, I mean, Uncle Jim, what should I do other than cut the crap and force myself to do some new writing?

[James D. Macdonald]

What should you do?

Write 250 words of original fiction before you post on this board again.

They don't have to be perfect -- they don't even have to be good. They just have to be there.

Cut the crap and write.

[bsolah]

There. Now I can come back :D

I took the idea from a prompt on a blog I contribute to, Write Stuff (http://www.take2max.com/writing/). The prompt was: You’re behind a car in traffic when you notice part of a trash bag sticking out from the closed trunk. What’s in the bag?

Nice Merc, I thought as I rolled to the back of a traffic jam. No surprise here. The gleam of the recently polished sedan distracted me from the early morning horrors of working in the city and living so far out.


We moved forward another few inches and the angle sent the reflection into my eyes. I pulled down the visor and cut the glare all together. A garbage bag stared me right in the face. It hung out from the gap in the closed trunk. Probably nothing but rubbish, I thought.


But there was also something else that caught my attention. The licence plate read: PM – 001. It looked all too familiar, but my groggy mind blocked out the blatantly obvious. It was too early and I was too tired for mysteries.


The traffic lurched forward again and I thought we were off again, on some kind of steady flow. The cruelty was that this was never the case and we were fools for believing it. The traffic halted again and we all weren't ready for it. The flashy, mint condition Merc didn't have time to break and the passive, early morning rush was thrown into chaos.


The sound of the crash startled me awake. I looked at the scene in front of me; the licence plate was out of view as they boot was up and the bag was in full view. The wind opened the bag like mother nature's detective and notes began to fly out. Hundreds of them. Green, so obviously hundreds and the owner of the car came running out in panic. The victim of his tired judgement running close behind.


It clicked then. PM. Prime Minister. John Howard ran with all the grace he didn't have, skittering along the bitumen, dodging starting and stopping cars. The drivers all looked in wonder, most laughing as our head of state ran like a fool, doing what he always did, stumbling for money.

[skelly]

If this has been addressed before, I apologize. In a scene written in third-person from a single character's pov, should I always use a pronoun to refer to the character: "She did this. Then this happened and she thought 'what the hell?' She turned and..." and so on. I find myself throwing the character's name in there occasionally, and I'm wondering if this is a mistake given that the reader already knows what the character's name is, and there is no possibility that she might be confused with anyone else. I appreciate the help :)

[Judg]

Well, I throw the name in rather frequently, so it better be OK. Much less often if the character is alone, but still... It seems to me that when an author uses the pronoun all the time, they're being coy, like those openings to books where they refuse to name the character, which I usually find pretty annoying. But this is just my personal opinion, of course.

[aertep]

If this has been addressed before, I apologize. In a scene written in third-person from a single character's pov, should I always use a pronoun to refer to the character: "She did this. Then this happened and she thought 'what the hell?' She turned and..." and so on. I find myself throwing the character's name in there occasionally, and I'm wondering if this is a mistake given that the reader already knows what the character's name is, and there is no possibility that she might be confused with anyone else. I appreciate the help :)

I think it depends somewhat on the voice you're using, and whether or not it sounds right in that voice. Think of Dickens referring to Scrooge, for example: he referred to Scrooge as Scrooge, Ebenezer Scrooge, him, he, and all sorts of adjectives I can't recall (probably miser, etc.) and it worked because of the voice Dickens was using. Might or might not work for you.

[Loretta]

My outlines aren't submission-quality prose (though some bits do make it all the way through without change).

They most closely resemble a guy telling his buddy about a neat movie he saw the night before -- bits of memorable dialog, descriptions, but most important the order of the scenes.

Often at this stage I have nonce-names for characters (sometimes they're named for their function in the story: "Bestpal" or "Cannonfodder"). Sometimes the author is a character: The author looked up from couch where he sat taking notes. "Just keep talking, guys," he said. "I'll fix it in the rewrite."

I love the visual of the author as a character:) I've found (if I'm alone) that I talk and make caustic remarks as the author as I'm outlining or writing. So between that and learning that I'm not the only one reading the stuff outloud to "hear" the flow better I'm beginning to feel normal ( I'd begun to wonder.) One thing I thought I'd slide in here and mention is the use of character sheets...I've found that they help me keep the detail areas concise..every once in awhile my brain goes sideways and I can't recall certain aspects of the story. The charts contain the basic stats, then their character/attitude and motivation, their current life, preferences etc. and friends.
Of course I may have said all this and find that everyone's been doing this all along...that I'm the one discovering the techiniques I've stumbled on have been implemented by The Old Sage forever:) ie reading the piece out loud:)

[Loretta]

I didn't say one sentence, let alone the first one ... the first chapter is good enough. (You see young, inexperienced writers trying to get everything into the first sentence. This more often than not gives you an opening sentence that looks like a runner-up in the <a href="http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/" target="_new">Bulwer-Lytton contest</a>.

But ... do give your readers a reward for reading the first page, a reason to turn the page, then ... you have chance.

There's a reason publishers ask for three-and-an-outline. That small sample will give them an idea of whether you can give readers a reason to start your book, and an idea of whether you know where you're going.


Do you formalize your outline more when submitting it James? Or when you do your revised version do you just submit it as you used it to work from?

Loretta

[James D. Macdonald]

A working outline and the outline you send to a publisher are two different things.

The first is Whatever Works For You. The second is a sales document.

[smsarber]

As I keep writing, I continually track where I have referred to my character as "name", and as "he", etc... If I started my previous paragraph with, "Glenn walked to the edge of the sidewalk...," then if the next paragraph was set to begin with my character I would use "He", or "The Chief". But in a paragraph involving two male characters, I will generally pick one to name, and one to pronoun. But then, I don't know anything anyway! (Laffs drily)

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I have a couple quick questions, if I may. It seems I cannot decide upon a particular story to work on. I have about three different stories in my mind at the same time, two of which have already been written, and the third I can't even get to Page 30 on.

So my first question is, how should I decide what story to work on?

Another similar question comes up here: how do you decide what to write next? In other words, where do you get inspiration from, and do you even wait for inspiration before writing a story?

I'm interested in these things because I figure I might have been going about my writing the wrong way. I want desperately to think of something and stick to it, but then my feelings get in the way and my mind wanders.

So basically I'm asking how I should gain inspiration, and also what story should take precedence in my own work. I just cannot seem to make up my mind, and I frankly am getting tired of it.


I look forward to your and anyone else's answers, and I thank you all in advance.

[James D. Macdonald]

As William Faulkner said, "I only write when I'm inspired. Fortunately I'm inspired at nine o'clock every morning."

Were I in your place, I'd put in the daily BIC on the new work, and plan out a time period every day to edit/rewrite/revise one of the old works (flip a coin to figure out which one). By the time you've done editing that one, the new project should be about done, so put it into the editing queue. Start writing a new story. At the same time edit the second story you have in inventory. When you're done with that ... you'll have the story that you just completed about finishing up its three months in your desk drawer.

So, you might consider arranging your time like that.

Remember that what works for you is what's right.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

As William Faulkner said, "I only write when I'm inspired. Fortunately I'm inspired at nine o'clock every morning."

Were I in your place, I'd put in the daily BIC on the new work, and plan out a time period every day to edit/rewrite/revise one of the old works (flip a coin to figure out which one). By the time you've done editing that one, the new project should be about done, so put it into the editing queue. Start writing a new story. At the same time edit the second story you have in inventory. When you're done with that ... you'll have the story that you just completed about finishing up its three months in your desk drawer.

So, you might consider arranging your time like that.

Remember that what works for you is what's right.



Cool. Thanks!

I have another question, if I may. This concerns outlining. I've noticed my new work isn't working like it should be, and I think it could be because I haven't outlined and I don't really know where I'm going. How do you think I should go about figuring out where the book is going? I basically had an idea and started writing, but had no ending or any real plot made up before starting the work. I did have something basic in mind, but I never wrote it down. I've heard some people mention writing the ending first. Would that be a viable option, in your opinion, for making my writing more solid?


Thanks in advance.

:)

[James D. Macdonald]

Sure. Write the ending. You can do that right now.

Also, see the idea of flow-charting the story by way of an outline.

[Jennifer L]

I sent my current WIP (speculative fiction) to a trusted beta reader. Ordinarily I do this around the time I'm ready to stick the manuscript in the drawer for three months. This gives my readers plenty of time to get to the manuscript, and then when I'm ready to take another pass, not only do I have fresh eyes, but I have all of this feedback to help me consider what to do next.

My reader called me and said, "This is haunting and lyrical, like an Enya song." So my question is, do I burn the manuscript now, or do I put it in a drawer and burn it in three months?

Actually, my question is, what do you do when a heretofore trustworthy beta reader suddenly loses her mind? I'm trying to figure out where I'd find another beta reader to replace her but I'm coming up empty. Thoughts?

Jennifer Lawler

[James D. Macdonald]

Find another couple of beta readers, keep this one, and wait three months before revising.

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh, and what you say to a beta? "Thank you very much!" And mean it.

[Jennifer L]

"Thank you" AND mean it? I thought the other homework was hard. She used the word "Enya" in the same sentence as the title of my manuscript. But, okay, she DID read it and I should be appreciative. But . . . Enya? I realize she could have called it total crap. Still, I can do something with total crap.

Anyway, leaving Enya aside, the essential problem is she didn't give her usual constructive feedback, leaving me at a loss because the WIP needs work.

I've had excellent beta readers so far but have never had to find one. They've always sort of shown up on my doorstep, like stray dogs. Now that I need to put this on one hiatus until she recovers her sanity, I'm curious as to how other people find their beta readers. I tried a search and am turning up lots of references to beta readers but nothing specifically on finding them. No doubt such a thread or at least some relevant posts exist, but apparently I'm not searching the threads the right way.

So that's the gist of . . . how do you find these people? I know mostly other writers (I need to get out more). The beauty of the beta readers I have is they're not writers. Am I being unfairly adverse to using writers as betas? How can I get a beta reader to show up on my doorstep? What sort of bait do you guys put out?

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Sure. Write the ending. You can do that right now.

Also, see the idea of flow-charting the story by way of an outline.


Awesome! Thanks again.

I did have to look up the word 'flow-chart', but now that I have a pretty good idea what it means, I think it'll work great for me.

So I'll probably write the ending tomorrow when I BIC again. BTW, I did a goodly amount of BIC today, like you suggested, and got four pages into the older work, and from Page 28 to 33 on the new work. I BIC'd for 45 minutes on each. It's a start, even if it's not a lot of time with my butt-in-chair.

Quickly, one more question: how many words of the ending should I do? Should I make it the whole last chapter of the book, or should I just do the last page or two?

I'll talk to you later, and I hope you have a good weekend ahead.


:)

[Loretta]

Jennifer, I'm new on this site too (saw your join date) but there is an area located beneath the Newbie section that lists people who have stuck up their hands to be Beta's. You might try contacting some of them? of course, I'm sure they probably are writers, but then, they will understand the effect it has on you to say your work is like Enya:) Hope that helps:) I'm so blinkin' new on here that I'm surprised I found it:) and had never heard them referred to as Beta readers, gawd what's THAT tell you? Been in a writing group for quite a while and written several pieces but never heard the term used until I came to this site. Anyhoo, I know it's upsetting...just drop into that area on the site, I think there would be someone there to help you:)

[James D. Macdonald]

Quickly, one more question: how many words of the ending should I do? Should I make it the whole last chapter of the book, or should I just do the last page or two?


That's another "How long is a piece of rope?" questions. Write as many words as you need to.

[smsarber]

Oh, and what you say to a beta? "Thank you very much!" And mean it.

I don't know, I just cleaned my son's beta tank, and I sure wasn't saying thank you! Oh, wait.... that's "betta".

Uncle Jim, I checked my tenses, and I don't know what the hell I was thinking. It has been fixed. Thank you, Absolute Sage.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

That's another "How long is a piece of rope?" questions. Write as many words as you need to.


Understood. Thank you kindly for your help. I'm off to write some good stuff.

:)

[Raphee]

Something else I recommend is that you start writing something else while you're letting your work marinate in your desk drawer. That too will help cleanse your mind.
That is something I now agree with. Although a lot of the advice I got initially, was to the contrary.

[allenparker]

Jennifer, I find that writers make the best betas. They know what they are looking for. They understand that a concise, constructive critique is important. They know what to look for. At least most of them, anyway.

I have two beta readers that I trust heavily, my mother, who retired from an editing job, and my wife, who is able to criticize me at the drop of a hat.

When they are done, I have a group who agrees to read each other's work and bleed suggestions all over our babies.

If the comments hurt, read them carefully. If they really hurt, post them on the wall in your writing room.

I've had my comments embroidered on my palatial futon cover.

[aertep]

My best beta readers are also writers, and neither of them specializes in fiction. One writes scripts, the other nonfiction, and they're both pros. I like this; they're able to tell me what's not working as well as what is, and why. They can also make worthwhile suggestions. I beta read for them, too, and am expected to be constructively critical.

The only problem with them is they're often to busy to read when I need them.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

If I had a beta reader who compared my work to Enya, I wouldn't evaluate that comment based on my opinion of Enya. I'd have to evaluate it based on the beta reader's opinion of Enya.

Fer instance, if it was that high school classmate of mine who used to sneak up to the top of the stairwell with me to sing through our favorites off Watermark and listen to our voices echo, I'd be very happy with that comment. But if it was that one college dorm neighbor I had who saw Enya on my CD rack and made barfing noises, I'd probably be disappointed.

In either case, running it by another beta or two would not be a bad idea. Enya isn't the only artist that different people have different opinions of, and your betas may be pointing out matters of style and taste rather than objective quality.

[Jennifer L]

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. Sounds like I should get over my bias against having writers be beta readers. Since I know where to find writers, eventually I'll be able to cajole one of them into being a beta.

Good point about looking at the Enya comment from the reader's perspective. It wasn't so much that I dislike Enya as the reader didn't offer her usual constructive criticism and I was at a loss . . . this is the most reliable reader I've ever had. But it wouldn't hurt to have a conversation about what exactly she means instead of responding in knee-jerk fashion.

Jennifer Lawler

[James D. Macdonald]

As you know, Bob, Doyle and I are regular instructors at the Viable Paradise workshop.

On one occasion, Doyle had a particular author's story to comment. Her comment was "This story presses too many of my buttons. Have Maureen McHugh look at it."

For us, Sherwood Smith has been our beta reader since we were all unpublished together. We also found beta readers for each of our Mageworlds books who hadn't read any of the previous books, to see if they made sense to readers just coming to the series.

So it's an ongoing thing -- reliable beta readers who you've known for years, a rotating cast of new readers. Be aware that sometimes a story will hit a reader in a non-typical way. In that case get a second opinion.

[James D. Macdonald]

A perennial thread-topic on the Novel board is "What's Wrong with [1st/2nd/3rd] Person [Omniscient/Limited/Closed/Open/Grayscale] [Past/Present/Future] POV?"

Usually we start with some vague reference to unnamed "experts" who allegedly say that a writer should [always/never] use the named POV. This is followed by a bunch of posts claiming that those [still unnamed] "experts" [do/do not] know what they're talking about.

Listen, people: Here's the actual answer. There is nothing wrong at all with any POV. It only has to be done well.

[James D. Macdonald]

The difference between a query letter and a cover letter:

Query letter: "Would you like to see my book?"

Cover letter: "Here's my book. Hope you like it!"

[Raphee]

A perennial thread-topic on the Novel board is "What's Wrong with [1st/2nd/3rd] Person [Omniscient/Limited/Closed/Open/Grayscale] [Past/Present/Future] POV?"

Usually we start with some vague reference to unnamed "experts" who allegedly say that a writer should [always/never] use the named POV. This is followed by a bunch of posts claiming that those [still unnamed] "experts" [do/do not] know what they're talking about.

Listen, people: Here's the actual answer. There is nothing wrong at all with any POV. It only has to be done well.
What about the mixing of Narratives.
I think my current WIP is well served by a mix of 3rd limited past and 3rd omni past.
What guidelines would you suggest in such a combo?

[Berry]

What about the mixing of Narratives.
I think my current WIP is well served by a mix of 3rd limited past and 3rd omni past.
What guidelines would you suggest in such a combo?

Guidelines? Don't confuse your readers. If it works, go with it.

I don't thing your two POV choices are necessarily incompatible. They seem to me like a film director's use of close-ups and wide shots; each serves a purpose if used with skill, but used clumsily they can detract from the story rather than adding to it.

I think the point of the perennial "[always|never] use [first/second/third]" is that some combinations can be tricky for beginners to pull off without more experience, and therefore should tend to be avoided until one has more writing chops.

Apart from that, to paraphrase a saying from science, "When a famous writer says something is absolutely true, he is almost certainly wrong."

Well, except Uncle Jim.

[James D. Macdonald]

I don't say that anything is absolutely true, except that the Reader is King.

[James D. Macdonald]

Plots, plots, and more plots. (http://thepulp.net/PulpCompanion/03summer/plot.html)

[LeeFlower]

Uncle Jim, can you talk a little more about theme?

When I was writing the novel I'm currently trying to work up the courage to drop in the mail, I didn't pay attention to theme at all. I figured it would tend to itself. Well, I started reading through the archives of this thread in prep for my second book, and realized in the process that neglecting the theme might not have been the world's best idea.

Except that the novel's theme apparantly did attend to itself, because upon rereading, I've discovered that there is one. It showed itself in the back door while I wasn't looking and made breakfast for my subplots while I was tidying up the basement. It runs through the main plot and all of the subplots, and somehow managed to pull my MC through the big swampy middle without me noticing. Betas picked up on it too, so I'm pretty sure I'm not just making things up.

This concerns me because, if we're going with the railroad track analogy you used waaay upthread, there's something a bit disconcerting about a conductor leaning over the cowcatcher just before he pulls into the yard for the night and going "oh hey, check it out, Larry! There are tracks down there!"

so, my questions are these:
1. Has anyone else ever done that? Because I'm generally not as clever as I think I am, and I'm having a hard time believing that I managed to do by dumb accident what people far smarter than me do through careful planning and revision.

2. You mentioned upthread that it's never too early to get a theme started, and that you can be pretty bald in stating what it is. Is that preferable to being subtle about it? Mine starts to show up on the first page, but it doesn't really announce itself until a few chapters in.

and 3. On the surface, the plot and the theme have very little to do with each other (plot=someone's murdered and the mc figures out whodunnit and why; theme=loyalty must be earned). Is that the usual course of things, or are the two generally more closely linked?

My apologies in advance if your foot's already a bit sore from kicking this particular ex-horse.

[Andrew Jameson]

A previous thread on theme (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18880) may be of some use.

[LeeFlower]

that's actually extremely useful. Thank you.

[James D. Macdonald]

I usually find theme by re-reading the text, then using that knowledge to help make decisions in the revision stage.

[LeeFlower]

Ok, thanks. I feel slightly less silly about the whole thing now.

[job]

If this has been addressed before, I apologize. In a scene written in third-person from a single character's pov, should I always use a pronoun to refer to the character: "She did this. Then this happened and she thought 'what the hell?' She turned and..." and so on. I find myself throwing the character's name in there occasionally, and I'm wondering if this is a mistake given that the reader already knows what the character's name is, and there is no possibility that she might be confused with anyone else. I appreciate the help :)


I'm pretty careful about this. I write deep POV, and characters do not think of themselves by name, so it seems an intrusion to put the POV character's personal name in there.
I tag with internals, with sensory perception, with movement, with direct address ... with anything in the world except the character name.


That said --
my editor just line-edited in eight or ten instances of POV-character names in a 110K ms. She did this in places where it clarified and simplified and I was getting all bent out of shape trying to be simon pure and avoid 'em.

[Devil Ledbetter]

I'm pretty careful about this. I write deep POV, and characters do not think of themselves by name, so it seems an intrusion to put the POV character's personal name in there.
I tag with internals, with sensory perception, with movement, with direct address ... with anything in the world except the character name.


That said --
my editor just line-edited in eight or ten instances of POV-character names in a 110K ms. She did this in places where it clarified and simplified and I was getting all bent out of shape trying to be simon pure and avoid 'em.My WIP is in third limited and I find that I have to use the POV character's name more in scenes where there is another character of the same sex. I think clarity trumps purity, in this case. If your readers have to stop and think "now, which 'she' just did (or said) that?" then you've yanked them out of the story.

My personal guideline is to never use a name where a "he" or "she" is equally clear.

[scarletpeaches]

Isn't using he/she a bit repetitive, though?

Or is it one of those invisible words, like 'said' in dialogue?

[ted_curtis]

Isn't using he/she a bit repetitive, though?

Or is it one of those invisible words, like 'said' in dialogue?

It's pretty invisible. Pull a novel off your shelf, and you'll be amazed at how many times 'he' and 'she' are used, especially in dialogue.

[James D. Macdonald]

"Clarified" and "simplified" are generally good.

[Dawno]

I've just finished updating the Index again. This time I've used the "multi-quote" function, so the Index will be a bit more like the "undiluted" thread as it has the entire post quoted. Hope that's helpful.

[AnneMarble]

I usually find theme by re-reading the text, then using that knowledge to help make decisions in the revision stage.
Whoops, I was supposed to have a theme?
:o

* peers at the manuscript she's revising *
:e2shrug:

Oh, well. I'm sure I'll find it somewhere in there. :D

[smsarber]

I'm pretty careful about this. I write deep POV, and characters do not think of themselves by name, so it seems an intrusion to put the POV character's personal name in there.
I tag with internals, with sensory perception, with movement, with direct address ... with anything in the world except the character name.


That said --
my editor just line-edited in eight or ten instances of POV-character names in a 110K ms. She did this in places where it clarified and simplified and I was getting all bent out of shape trying to be simon pure and avoid 'em.

Yeah, but that's first person. The question was for third person. No matter how deep you want to be, third person means :narrated. i.e. told by an outsider, and no matter how deep this outside person is (even omnicient) they will not refer to "George" as "I".

[job]

Yeah, but that's first person. The question was for third person. No matter how deep you want to be, third person means :narrated. i.e. told by an outsider, and no matter how deep this outside person is (even omnicient) they will not refer to "George" as "I".

No. I'm writing third person.
Deep POV in third person uses 'he' or 'she' to build that deep POV.

Sorry to have been so unclear you thought I was writing first person.

JoB

[James D. Macdonald]

What? You've never heard of George I, George II, and George III?

[smsarber]

What? You've never heard of George I, George II, and George III?
Ha-ha-ha.

[smsarber]

No. I'm writing third person.
Deep POV in third person uses 'he' or 'she' to build that deep POV.

Sorry to have been so unclear you thought I was writing first person.

JoB

But even in deep POV 3rd person the narrator will still refer to the MC as George I, George II, or George III. You have to ocassionally remind the reader who they are reading about, or you will lose your audience. Or more likely they will lose you.
And all 3rd person uses "he", or "she", or "they".

[job]

But even in deep POV 3rd person the narrator will still refer to the MC as George I, George II, or George III. You have to ocassionally remind the reader who they are reading about, or you will lose your audience. Or more likely they will lose you.
And all 3rd person uses "he", or "she", or "they".



When I speak of being in deep POV, I mean there is not an Omniscient Narrator who speaks about the POV character and is separate from him.

I do not say it is impossible to be deeply immersed in character POV and simultaneously use an Omniscient Narrator, but it is beyond my own technical capabilities.

In deep POV, third person, I use the character name once, to establish for the reader who the POV character -- who the fallback 'he' -- is. After that, the POV character name is used very rarely in the internals or in the accompanying narration. It appears only in dialog.

One can do this without the reader forgetting who the POV character is supposed to be. Indeed, if one cannot do this, one should strive to learn.

I 'name' the POV character whenever the POV changes,
when I begin a chapter,
after a major shift of scene,
or where the use of the simple, deep-POV 'he' would be confusing and the write-around is tedious. This last happens maybe ten or a dozen times in a full ms, generally where there are a couple folks of the same gender on stage at once.

The continual use of character name "John' or 'George Stuart' or "Maybelle' in the narrative is a feature of Omniscient Narrative. In my opinion, Omniscient Narrator impedes the development of a deep character POV.

As to the use of 'they' ...?
I'm not quite sure what you mean here.
The introduction of 'they' makes me wonder if we are talking about the same things.

Third person POV is going to be a single person. 'They' would be neither self-referent nor used by an Omniscient Narrator to refer to the POV character.

Well ... I suppose there might be a special case for telepathic group entities or schizophrenics.

[James D. Macdonald]

As to the use of 'they' ...?
I'm not quite sure what you mean here.


Are you referring to this line?


You have to ocassionally remind the reader who they are reading about...

If so, that's the singular 'they,' the word used in English to mean an individual of unknown sex. (This is the correct singular. "He or she" is a barbarism; "he" (or "she") alone is silly.)

See for example:

"Singular they": God said it, I believe it, that settles it (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003572.html)

Everybody loves their Jane Austen (http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html)

[smsarber]

Acually "they" was a joke. An appreciately bad one, but a joke nonetheless. Sorry, I have never heard of third person without a narrator. I haven't the slightest clue what you mean. Can you show me an example? I was taught that "third person" is a story told by an outsider.

[job]

Well ... I'd say Omniscient Narrator is a story told by an outsider.
'Third person' is the story as seen through the eyes of the character himself.

Kipling's 'The Elephants Child' is an example of Omniscient Narrator. Not once do we get the Elephant's view on what happened to him.
We get the Narrator's view of what happened.

In Carroll's 'Alice in Wonderland', OTOH, we are in Third Person. We are 'inside of Alice looking out' as she goes through her adventures.

Steven, it sounds to me like you want more information on 'point of view', which is one of the craft basics.

I know many places on the web that discuss POV, but I don't want to direct you away from the resources here at AW.
Perhaps some folks will come back with directions to discussions of POV at AW.

If nobody pops up with AW refs, I'll come back with some of the ones I know.

[smsarber]

Steven, it sounds to me like you want more information on 'point of view', which is one of the craft basics.



Ok, a book on writing I read while I was in prison defined 3rd person as "told by an outsider". I wish I could remember the name. Why would I want info on POV? I've been trying to explain it to you.

Main article: Third-person narrative
Third person is the most common narrative perspective used in contemporary literature; it is the classic storytelling mode in which the storyteller is recounting a series of events to an audience. Third person includes a number of more specific techniques which offer different benefits and limitations to the writer.

Third person limited became the most popular narrative perspective during the 20th century. Third person limited is sometimes called the "over the shoulder" perspective; it shows the story as though the narrator could only describe events that could be perceived by a viewpoint character. It can be used very objectively, showing what is actually happening without the filter of the protagonist's personality, which can allow the author to reveal information that the protagonist doesn't know or realize. However, some authors use an even narrower and more subjective perspective, as though the viewpoint character were narrating the story; this is dramatically very similar to the first person, allowing in-depth revelation of the protagonist's personality, but uses third-person grammar. Some writers will shift perspective from one viewpoint character to another.

Historically, the "third person omniscient" perspective was more common. This is the tale told from the point of view of the storyteller who knows all the facts. The primary advantage is that it injected the narrator's own perspective and reputation into the story, creating a greater sense of objectivity for the story. The disadvantage of this mode is that it creates more distance between the reader and the story. A variation is where the narrator is a character in the story; a small amount of the story might be told in first person.

There is also a "Third person objective" perspective which tells a story without detailing any characters' thoughts and instead gives an objective point of view. This point of view can be described as "a fly on the wall" and is often used in newspaper articles. For instance the writer is restricted to not being able to use I, me or my.
A variation is where the narrator is a character in the story; a small amount of the story might be told in first person.
So I guess that is the closest to what you mean? Which would be a variation on 3rd Omni.

source: WIKIPEDIA
[

[Devil Ledbetter]

However, some authors use an even narrower and more subjective perspective, as though the viewpoint character were narrating the story; this is dramatically very similar to the first person, allowing in-depth revelation of the protagonist's personality, but uses third-person grammar.I think this is what the previous poster may have meant by using "deep" POV in third person.

This is what I'm going for in my WIP. I have two POV characters alternating. Rather than have two "I" speakers, it is all in deep third. You get what the characters are feeling, and the neat part is, the third person narrator can reveal any emotions or sensations the characters are having. This isn't so with first-person, because with that, all that can be revealed what the character himself would choose to reveal as the narrator.

So in this sense, third POV is actually deeper than first person. Your narrator gets inside the body and reveal whatever he wants, which often more than what the character himself would reveal.

[smsarber]

Yeah, I figured. When I read back over the wikipedia quote I used it made sense. I may try it at some point. I think I was thrown off by the way it was described. Way to go, job. It's good to make us think, and I don't research enough.

[smsarber]

Just a question- is post 6131 rude and ignorant? I didn't mean for it to be.

[JasonChirevas]

There is also a "Third person objective" perspective which tells a story without detailing any characters' thoughts and instead gives an objective point of view. This point of view can be described as "a fly on the wall" and is often used in newspaper articles. For instance the writer is restricted to not being able to use I, me or my.

This is what I'm using for my WIP because it's the best, easiest way for me to live by Show, Don't Tell. I let the reader determine the characters' thoughts and emotions by their words, and far more importantly, their actions, rather than telling them A feels this way about what B did, but C thinks it's just peachy.

-Jason

[job]

I think this is what the previous poster may have meant by using "deep" POV in third person.

Deep POV is the immersion of the reader into the sensation, emotion, interior monologue, opinion, feeling, memory. action, intention of a character. The reader 'sees' though the character's eyes.

There are lots of techniques for deepening POV. And, as I said, writing in this 'deep' third person viewpoint, one avoids use of the character name.

[job]

>>>Just a question- is post 6131 rude and ignorant? I didn't mean for it to be. <<<<

Hmmmm ....

When you say --
"Why would I want info on POV? I've been trying to explain it to you." - you imply your knowledge of the usages of POV is deep, subtle and profound,
and that you do not need further information in this area,
but are, in fact, in the enviable position of enlightening me about it.

If this is true, you have not behaved rudely or ignorantly.

[smsarber]

That was exhasperation, not rudeness.
I've just never heard of "deep" POV, but that is probably close to how I write, and my style is to use the MC's given name at least once every two paragraphs.
Let's acknowledge this: Every writer is different, and all of the so-called rules of writing can be bent or broken. It was wrong for me to question your use of ANY POV. If it works for you, do it.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's all looking for clarification. The names for the different POVs are mutable things; use them if they make the concept clearer for you. If not, not.

And the master rule is that if it works, it's right.

[smsarber]

It's all looking for clarification. The names for the different POVs are mutable things; use them if they make the concept clearer for you. If not, not.

And the master rule is that if it works, it's right.

As usual, Uncle Jim, you are the wise one. Where were you BEFORE I started banging my head into the wall?

[gp101]

UJ,

I know you preach "if it works, it's right" but I want your opinion on tenses. Though I've seen the movie several times, I just recently started reading "Silence of the Lambs" for the first time. The first couple chaps are excellent. The author writes in past tense, but at times goes into description of people in present tense. It's as if the author is telling me "this story took place in the past, but the characters are still alive today as you read this".

It'll be Hannibal did this and Clarice did that, but Hannibal's hands are, his voice is, and his manners are. It was jarring to me, I suspect, because I (and probably most of us here on AW) read differently since I write stories of my own and I am looking at how something was written. Obviously, this technique "works" since it is a beloved best-seller, and the average reader probably doesn't notice the shift in tense, but is it proper form? Or is he just properly breaking rules?

Have you found this to be fairly common? I can't remember another book that does it. It's kind of cool, but weird to me at the same time.

[smsarber]

“What follows is a list of the most common shoulds, musts, and have-to’s that many of us have been taught about writing. Each of these is either useless, irrelevant, or just plain incorrect:
*You should work on only one piece of writing at a time.
*You must write every day, or for a minimum amount of time every day.
*you must write a certain number of words or pages each day.
*If you’re serious about writing, you must make it your top priority at all times.
*You must write according to a regular schedule.
*You should have a separate room to do your writing in.
*A writer must be unhappy, or lonely, or cynical, or 100% serious, or neurotic, or a little crazy, or downright nuts.
*If you wish to be published, you must do whatever editors ask.
*You must be completely free from all distractions and interruptions in order to write well.
*You should stubbornly resist any editor’s attempts to change your work.
*You must bare your soul in your writing, and/or write about the most personal and intimate things in your life.
*You must dress and act in a certain way, and/or associate with certain people, in order to be a successful writer.
*In order to be published, you have to know (and/or kiss up to the right people).
*You should always write an outline before you begin your first draft.
*You must write your title first.
*You must write the various sections of your piece in the same sequence in which they will be read.
*You must know how your piece will end before you begin writing it.
*You must always write “he or she,” “him or her,” or “his or her” when referring to hypothetical people.
*You should always put the most exciting or important part of your piece at the very beginning, so that it will grab your
reader.
*You must always begin each piece with something shocking or exciting, or else you risk losing your reader.
*You must always write a minimum of two (or three, or four, or five) drafts. First drafts will never be any good.
*You must keep each of your manuscripts circulating among editors until it is accepted for publication.
*If manuscript is rejected, you must get it back out to another editor within 24 hours.
*To protect yourself against literary theft, you must register everything you write with the government copyright office,
and/or you must mail yourself a copy of each piece as soon as it’s completed.
*You must type your social security number, a proper copyright notice (e.g., Copyright 2004 by Scott Edelstein), and the right you wish to sell on the first page of each of your manuscripts.
The only sane response to any of these pronouncements is a loud and emphatic, “NOT SO!” None of them is universally true. Some may be useful or true for some writers, or under certain circumstances. Some may be helpful as generalities, but are not absolutes. Many-the last seven, for example-are pure baloney through an through.
In addition to the shoulds, writers also face a barrage of equally worthless shouldn’ts. Here are the most common examples:
*Never write about yourself.
*Never write in the first person, or use the words “I,” “me,” or ”my.”
*Never use curse words, slang, or colloquialisms.
*Never use italics.
*Never use exclamation points.
*Never use foreign words.
*Never start a sentence with “and,” “but,” “anyway,” “however,” “nevertheless,” “therefore,” or “I.”
*Never use incomplete sentences.
*Never stray from correct grammar and usage for any reason.
*Never write in dialect; always use standard English.
*Never send something you’ve written to more than one editor at once.
*Never submit photocopied manuscripts to editors.
*Never rewrite, except to editorial order.
I repeat: all of these are worthless at best, harmful at worst. Ignore them all.
There is yet another type of nonsense that we writers often face: strange beliefs about what makes a writer. It’s common for people-usually literature professors, editors, or writers with overblown egos-to try to tell us who is a writer and who isn’t. These folks like to proclaim themselves a writer (or at least, a real writer) unless they have done one of the following:
*Written (or published) at least two (or three, or ten, or twenty) books.
*Had at least two (or five, or Fifty) pieces published.
*Been writing for at least two (or five, or fifteen) years.
*Written at least a million words.
*Been writing full-time, or for a certain minimum number of hours per week, for a year (or five, or ten).
*Worked a variety of jobs, or traveled throughout much of the world, or had plenty of experience with the “real world.”
*Read and studied the great works of western (or world) literature.
*Received a Master of Fine Arts (MFA) degree in writing.
*Suffered (or suffered prodigiously).
*Had their work rejected at least 100 (or 500, or 1000) times.
All of these pronouncements are nothing less than absurd.”
Excerpted from “30 Steps to Becoming a Writer” by Scott Edelstein pp. 53-56

[James D. Macdonald]

UJ,

I know you preach "if it works, it's right" but I want your opinion on tenses. Though I've seen the movie several times, I just recently started reading "Silence of the Lambs" for the first time. The first couple chaps are excellent. The author writes in past tense, but at times goes into description of people in present tense. It's as if the author is telling me "this story took place in the past, but the characters are still alive today as you read this".


Let's take a look:

"Do you spook easily, Starling?"

"Not yet."

"See, we've tried to interview and examine all thirty-two known serial murderers we have in custody, to build up a database for psychological profiling in unsolved cases. Most of them went along with it--I think they're driven to show off, a lot of them. Twenty-seven were willing to cooperate. Four on death row with appeals pending clammed up, understandably. But the one we want most, we haven't been able to get. I want you to go after him tomorrow in the asylum."

Clarice Starling felt a glad knocking in her chest and some apprehension too.

"Who's the subject?"

"The psychiatrist--Dr. Hannibal Lecter," Crawford said.

A brief silence follows the name, always, in any civilized gathering.

Starling looked at Crawford steadily, but she was too still. "Hannibal the Cannibal," she said.

That's the narrator, the person who is telling the story, interjecting himself into the narrative. It's a bit of a distancing mechanism. It's "I'm telling a story." And it's the exposition. The narrator is telling us something that the two characters can't mention to each other because they both know it perfectly well.

Other places, the drop into present tense is POV. When seeing the characters' thoughts, they're present tense because the characters aren't thinking about what's going on in front of them in past tense.

Character thoughts aren't always set in italics.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm going to annotate some of these.


“What follows is a list of the most common shoulds, musts, and have-to’s that many of us have been taught about writing. Each of these is either useless, irrelevant, or just plain incorrect:

*A writer must be unhappy, or lonely, or cynical, or 100% serious, or neurotic, or a little crazy, or downright nuts.



You don't have to be crazy, but it helps.

*If you wish to be published, you must do whatever editors ask.

Depends on what degree of granularity you're looking for. At its most basic what the editors ask is "Send us something we can use!" and this is completely correct. If you wish to be published you must send something that suits their current needs.

*You must dress and act in a certain way, and/or associate with certain people, in order to be a successful writer.

The propeller beanie (http://costumestock.com/product/B000H8H8GO/Merchant/Adult-Propeller-Beanie-Hat.htm) is absolutely necessary. By great good luck I have a number of them here. May I sell you a couple? Oh, yes, and you must associate with me.


*You must keep each of your manuscripts circulating among editors until it is accepted for publication.

Or until you've hit every reasonable market. Then retire it for a year, re-read it, see if any new markets have opened, and consider either rewriting it or permanently retiring it.

*If manuscript is rejected, you must get it back out to another editor within 24 hours.

That's a darned good idea. Six hours is better. Three better still.


The only sane response to any of these pronouncements is a loud and emphatic, “NOT SO!” None of them is universally true. Some may be useful or true for some writers, or under certain circumstances. Some may be helpful as generalities, but are not absolutes. Many-the last seven, for example-are pure baloney through an through.

If it works for you, do it. If it doesn't work, don't.

In addition to the shoulds, writers also face a barrage of equally worthless shouldn’ts. Here are the most common examples:
*Never write about yourself.
*Never write in the first person, or use the words “I,” “me,” or ”my.”
*Never use curse words, slang, or colloquialisms.
*Never use italics.
*Never use exclamation points.
*Never use foreign words.
*Never start a sentence with “and,” “but,” “anyway,” “however,” “nevertheless,” “therefore,” or “I.”
*Never use incomplete sentences.
*Never stray from correct grammar and usage for any reason.
*Never write in dialect; always use standard English.

Has anyone ever actually heard anyone say any of those things?

*Never send something you’ve written to more than one editor at once.

This one is true. Just plain don't do it, unless all of the editors involved clearly state that they take simultaneous submissions.


*Never submit photocopied manuscripts to editors.

This one dates back to the days when photocopies a) came out as negatives (white print on a black background), b) were on an odd slick paper that tended to stick to other sheets of odd slick paper, and c) smelled rather odd. It was true at that time. I don't know if that's been true any time in the last thirty years, though, and I don't recall anyone saying not to send photocopies any time in the last thirty years either.

*Never rewrite, except to editorial order.

Edelstein has completely misunderstood this one, but that's okay: many people misunderstand it. This rule doesn't instruct you to send out only first drafts. Once you've written, rewritten, revised, and made your work the best you can ... send it out. After that it's a trap to rewrite it every time it comes back. A waste of time. You've already made the story the best you could or you wouldn't be sending it out, would you? So send it out, and send it out again, until you've hit every reasonable market. Then retire it, as above. The exceptions are: if someone says "I will buy this if you make the following changes," by all means do so. Or, if the story's sat around in your Retired file for a year and you see a way to make it better, you can rewrite it and send it back on its travels. (Or, suddenly an inspiration strikes and the Muse won't let go of your throat until you rewrite the sucker.)

I repeat: all of these are worthless at best, harmful at worst. Ignore them all.

And ignore that, as well.

There is yet another type of nonsense that we writers often face: strange beliefs about what makes a writer.

What makes a writer is this: the act of writing. If you write, you are a writer. If you dont -- you aren't.

It really is that simple.

[smsarber]

Has anyone ever actually heard anyone say any of those things?

A few of them, the but, nevertheless, blah blah. I didn't write this, I just posted some. It helps, I think.

[James D. Macdonald]

The actual rules:

What works is right.

The reader is king.

A compelling story compellingly told trumps everything.

A story that's submitted may be accepted. A story that's never submitted won't be accepted.

[smsarber]

That is exactly what the list said, only in a lot more words. I was trying to back you up for some who think you have to follow a set criteria of guidelines. Has anyone read Scott Edelstein's "30 Steps to Becoming a Writer"? I am up to page 58, and so far it is good, easy to read, and informative. But I would like to know other opinions.

[Writer???]

Hello all,

I probably shouldn't chime in here but below are some examples. I would very much appreciate you all labeling them for me. I have included what I believe them to be, please correct me if I am wrong.

"Tom walks out to his car. It's cold and he feels the chill deep in his bones. 'Moring Tom,' the neighbor calls. Tom waves back not really paying attention. He gets in the car and drives to the store; he never comes back. Jane cries for a week."

To me, this is third omnicient. A third person, unknown and unidentified is telling us the story. They have complete knowledge of all surroundings and feelings etc. So this = 3rd-Omni.-Present

"I walked out to the car. It was cold and I felt the chill deep in my bones. 'Moringin Tom,' the neighbor called. I waved back not really paying attention. I got in the car and drove to the store; I never returned. Jane told me she cried for a week."

This is first person. I am telling the story and I include only information I know or am told. So this = 1st-Personal POV-Past

"He walked out to the car, 'Morning Tom,' the neighbor called. He waved back, got in and drove to the store; he never came back."

This is third person observation, "over the shoulder". I observe and report, but can't include any info I'm not privy to. So this = 3rd-Personal POV-Past

"You walk out to the car. It is very cold and you feel the chill deep in your bones. 'Morning Tom,' the neighbor calls. You wave back not really paying attention. You get in and drive to the store; you never return. Jane cries for a week."

This is second person omnicient. "You" are the main character, but obsevations you would have no knowledge of and your thoughts and feelings are relayed as well, i.e. Jane's crying. So this = 2nd-Omni.-present (your actions), and future, (Jane cries for a week.)

As a rebel I must disagree with second person in general. In the first three examples, we are defining "person" by the narrator. I the narrator am telling you Tom did this; I did this; He did this. Someone, a third person or ourselves, is telling us what is going on. But in the last example (second person), nothing really changes as far as the "telling", but we are defining "person" by the character instead. YOU did this; is a description of the character yes, but it is still being told by a third person so why isn't it defined as such? As in this example it would be defined as, "third Person Omnicient Observation?

In other words, I am telling YOU and anyone reading the work, what you did and what else I observed; how you felt, how others felt, what everyone thought, etc.

Technically I don't think there is any such thing as second person in writing and story telling because of the way the definition switches from narrator to character for second person. It is ALWAYS a third person telling the story. And, most of the time it is always as a third omnicient. A narrator that knows your thoughts and feelings and things that others do or think before you are aware of them as the character. Even if I (the narrator), limit it to what "You" THINK others are thinking or feeling, it is still a third person telling you and everyone else the story.

If I am wrong, any help would be appreciated.
Thanks

[James D. Macdonald]

I believe that there is a difference between the POV in this:


Never have I felt quite so worldly as I did on my very first real date, when, after considered perusal of the wine list, I masterfully commanded the waiter at the Log Cabin restaurant in Lenox, Massachusetts, to fetch me a bottle of Mateus Rosé. In its distinctive Buddah-shaped bottle, with its slight spritz, it represented a step up from the pink Almaden that my friends and I sucked down in order to get into the proper Dionysian frame of mind for the summer rock concerts at Tanglewood. (And that seemed a classic accompaniment--rather like Chablis and oysters--to the cheap Mexican pot we were smoking at the time.) Later, of course, as I discovered the joys of dry reds and whites, I learned to sneer at pink wine; it seemed--as Winston Churchill once remarked regarding the moniker of an acquaintance named Bossom--that it was neither one thing nor the other. A few summers ago a bottle of Domaines Ott rosé in conjunction with a leg of marinated grilled lamb cured me of this particular prejudice; I thought I'd died and gone to Provence, though in fact I was at my friend Steve's birthday party in the Hamptons.


and this:


You are not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at this time of the morning. But here you are, and you cannot say that the terrain is entirely unfamiliar, although the details are fuzzy. You are at a nightclub talking to a girl with a shaved head. The club is either Heartbreak or the Lizard Lounge. All might come clear if you could just slip into the bathroom and do a little more Bolivian Marching Powder. Then again, it might not. A small voice inside you insists that this epidemic lack of clarity is a result of too much of that already. The night has already turned on that imperceptible pivot where two A.M. changes to six A.M. You know this moment has come and gone, but you are not yet willing to concede that you have crossed the line beyond which all is gratuitous damage and the palsy of unraveled nerve endings. Somewhere back there you could have cut your losses, but you rode past that moment on a comet trail of white powder and now you are trying to hang on to the rush. Your brain at this moment is composed of brigades of tiny Bolivian soldiers. They are tired and muddy from their long march through the night. There are holes in their boots and they are hungry. They need to be fed. They need Bolivian Marching Powder.


and this:


When Christopher Ransom opened his eyes he was on his back, looking up into a huddle of Japanese faces shimmering in a pool of artificial light. Who were these people? Then he placed them. These were his fellow karate-ka, members of his dojo. And there stood the sensei, broad nose skewed to the left side of his face, broken in the finals at the Junior All-Japan Karate Tournament fifteen years ago. Ransom was pleased that he could recall this detail. Collect enough of the details and the larger picture might take care of itself.

The sensei asked if he was okay. Ransom lifted his head. Turquoise and magenta disks played at the edge of his vision. He was hoisted to his feet; suddenly the landscape looked as if it was flipped on its side, the surface of the parking lot standing vertical like a wall and the façade of the gym lying flat where the ground should be. Then the scene righted itself, as if on hinges.


We might as well call the difference first person, second person, and third person. If the terminology doesn't work for you, try something else that eases composition. They are, essentially, I'm talking about me, I'm talking about you, and I'm talking about that guy over there.

In the end, while you can flip between POVs between scenes, you'll probably want to stick with one or another inside of the individual scenes to avoid confusing your readers.

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh yes -- and for the excerpts above, the question is: would you turn the page?

[job]

Hi Writer?? --

Folks give the various kinds of POV different names.
As long as everybody agrees on what's being discussed, I don't think the terminology is all that important. One set of terminology isn't any more or less correct than any other.


>>>"Tom walks out to his car. It's cold and he feels the chill deep in his bones. 'Moring Tom,' the neighbor calls. Tom waves back not really paying attention. He gets in the car and drives to the store; he never comes back. Jane cries for a week."<<<

What I first notice about this is that it's in present tense.

I'd call the POV Third Person, and add that it has an Omniscient Narrator.
When you call it Third Omni, I understand what you mean, so that's cool too.

The visual and sensory details of the scene mean the reader experiences this passage from a distance of twenty or thirty feet, so I'd say -- 'the focus is distant'.

The reader does not really experience what's happening to Tom, only 'hears' about it. So I'd call this a very 'shallow POV'.



>>>"I walked out to the car. It was cold and I felt the chill deep in my bones. 'Moringin Tom,' the neighbor called. I waved back not really paying attention. I got in the car and drove to the store; I never returned. Jane told me she cried for a week." <<<<

First person. Past tense.


>>"He walked out to the car, 'Morning Tom,' the neighbor called. He waved back, got in and drove to the store; he never came back."<<<<

Simple Third Person, past tense. The most common POV of fiction.

The focus seems fairly distant, but the passage is too short to be sure.

No way to tell how deep the POV will turn out to be from this passage.

I haven't run across the term 'observational POV' myself, but if somebody explained what it meant and wanted to used this terminology I'd get used to it.




>>>"You walk out to the car. It is very cold and you feel the chill deep in your bones. 'Morning Tom,' the neighbor calls. You wave back not really paying attention. You get in and drive to the store; you never return. Jane cries for a week."

I always think of Second Person as experimental stuff. Not of much interest to me since I'm not going to write in it and it's rare. More for literary analysis, I think.

"Gravity's Rainbow" uses 'you' in all of the various ways you can use 'you', including as a POV. Margaret Atwood used second person in "Rape Fantasies". And, of course, there's James Joyce. I think a lot of serious writers have played around with it.

[Writer???]

Thank you James and job for your time.

[smsarber]

After some of my recent stupidity, I want to apologize to job for my rudeness. You and Jim are both right,forget labels, and just write.

[job]

Oh good heavens. No offense taken.

[smsarber]

I am glad not everyone is as touchy as me. But I printed out a crit on my "Second Degree Injustice" last night and went over it a couple times. Some of what everyone has been trying to tell me finally clicked. I am hard-headed, and have been spending too much time being defensive, and not enough time looking for the faults that have been pointed out in my writing. Hopefully now I can start to improve, now that I have learned how to open myself up.(At least somewhat. Small steps!)

[James D. Macdonald]

Most of us are pretty laid-back here.

[James D. Macdonald]

Well, golly. Look what the mail brought today!

Tekno Books (http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/product-compint-0001158247-page.html) sent me a contract today. They want the rights to reprint one of my stories for Sony's new e-book reader (non-exclusive electronic, World English, five years).

Well, shucks. No advance, but this is for a reprint. 25% of purchase price as royalty.

I can do that. It's found money.

[aertep]

Isn't that nice? Manna. It's like residuals, only better.

[Niteowl]

Most of us are pretty laid-back here.
Is that the same thing as 'liking the naps' ? Because then I'm Extremely laid-back.

[Devil Ledbetter]

Is that the same thing as 'liking the naps' ? Because then I'm Extremely laid-back.I don't call that napping. I call that a writer's bath. It's that daydreaming state that allows you to imagine the next scene it its full glory.

Don't bother me, can't you see I'm working.

[Ken Schneider]

Well, golly. Look what the mail brought today!

Tekno Books (http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/product-compint-0001158247-page.html) sent me a contract today.

They didn't send me one. Phsst!

[James D. Macdonald]

A small brag here: This story is by Dave Thompson, one of our students at Viable Paradise last year, and this story was one that he wrote at the workshop:

http://pseudopod.org/2007/03/30/pseudopod-031-last-respects/

This is, BTW, a paying market.

[James D. Macdonald]

Story Idea, Free!

Take The Bourne Identity. Imagine that Jason Bourne, escaping from the Swiss bank, rather than hooking up with dodgy Eurotrash femme Marie instead got a ride from Maria from The Sound of Music.

How does the story go from that point?

[aertep]

Story Idea, Free!

Take The Bourne Identity. Imagine that Jason Bourne, escaping from the Swiss bank, rather than hooking up with dodgy Eurotrash femme Marie instead got a ride from Maria from The Sound of Music.

How does the story go from that point?

I can no longer do BIC because I no longer have a B. I laughed it off.

Then I thought of the film: hmm...at least maybe there'd have been some chemistry if they'd done it this way...

[smsarber]

Well, golly. Look what the mail brought today!

Tekno Books (http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/product-compint-0001158247-page.html) sent me a contract today. They want the rights to reprint one of my stories for Sony's new e-book reader (non-exclusive electronic, World English, five years).

Well, shucks. No advance, but this is for a reprint. 25% of purchase price as royalty.

I can do that. It's found money.

Congrats UncleJim, I wish the best for you.

[smsarber]

Does anyone think this is a mistake: I have four novels, two seperate poetry projects, and a short story addiction going at once.
I'm really still finding my voice, I have been writing fiction seriously only since October. Before that it was only jotting down ideas, but forgetting them, packing them away, etc...
Anyway, I don't think I am spreading myself to thin, I work on the piece that is coming easiest at that time, because when it gets forced it sucks (in my writing, at least).
Just curiouser and curiouser.

[James D. Macdonald]

Work on one, then work on another -- if that's what's natural for you, that's fine with me.

Don't send them out until they're finished, but when they're finished, send them out. You have permission to do anything except not-write.

[Nangleator]

It doesn't seem like a problem, smsarber, if you finish pieces that you're working on. If so, go ahead and work on as many as you like at a time.

[Jennifer L]

I had a novel published by a small publisher last year. I wrote it some years ago and it took a while to find a home and so when it finally came out, I could hardly even remember who I was when I wrote it. Suffice it to say that like many first novels, it covers Important Themes and is very dark and full of angst. I am very glad I got it out of my system and though it is not the book I would write today, I'm not ashamed to have it on my shelf.

Most of the people who have read it have reacted strongly to it, which I think means I did my job, considering the kind of book it is. Many of them have found the book hard to read because of the subject matter (i.e., dark and depressing.) Others vehemently oppose the protag's ultimate decision (while agreeing it was completely in character for her), etc. One person even went so far as to say I had written one true thing, so if I never publish another word of fiction, I'll feel satisfied with that.

But a few days ago, I had lunch with a colleague who'd bought a copy of the book and began the familiar refrain, "You know, I found it hard to read."

And I nodded knowingly, and said, "It's a dark and depressing book."

And she said, "No, that's not why. The subject matter didn't bother me at all. I found it hard to read because you captured our city perfectly. And I hate the city and I despise the kind of people who live here."

I was taken aback because I like living in this city, and I like the kind of people who live here, and I worked very hard to make sure the setting seemed real. Apparently I was successful.

Don't have a question or even a conclusion. Just never expected to have done my job so well that someone would have trouble finishing my book for a reason like that! :)

FWIW,
Jennifer

[James D. Macdonald]

Just never expected to have done my job so well that someone would have trouble finishing my book for a reason like that!

Congratulations, you are a Writer!

(Everyone, give Jennifer a round of applause. And thank her in the best way: Read her book. Then Will Come Night and Darkness (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/1879378523/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/). Buy one; better still, buy a dozen. They make excellent gifts.)

[willietheshakes]

I believe that there is a difference between the POV in this:
***examples snipped***

For some reason, this post cracked me up. Why McInerney?

(Oh, and the answer to your question -- yes, all three passages had me hooked.)

[James D. Macdonald]

Why McInerney?

a) Good writers are more fun to read than bad writers. One of these days I'm going to do another line-by-line, and these will do.

b) He's written at novel length in the three basic POVs, so a comparison, same writer to same writer, is more interesting.

[willietheshakes]

I suspected as much. It was a good set of examples, for precisely those reasons.

[aertep]

Uncle Jim, I posted this question under "Book Promotion Ideas and Advice," but I'd like your take on it.

With the help of a designer who's not a writer, I'm creating a website. I'd like to post a few of my past published articles on the site, as well as a teaser from my WIP. I own the copyright on these pieces.

I'd like site visitors to know that articles are available to reprint with permission, but *only* with permission. Is there standard language for this? Is this understood, or do I need to say something to protect my work? Do I advertise my ignorance by asking this question in the first place?

I'll also have photos, video and audio on the site. Any clues as to how to protect these?

I'd appreciate your advice, and that of anyone else who cares to pitch some in. Thanks.

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, I posted this question under "Book Promotion Ideas and Advice," but I'd like your take on it.

With the help of a designer who's not a writer, I'm creating a website. I'd like to post a few of my past published articles on the site, as well as a teaser from my WIP. I own the copyright on these pieces.

I'd like site visitors to know that articles are available to reprint with permission, but *only* with permission. Is there standard language for this? Is this understood, or do I need to say something to protect my work? Do I advertise my ignorance by asking this question in the first place?

I'll also have photos, video and audio on the site. Any clues as to how to protect these?

I'd appreciate your advice, and that of anyone else who cares to pitch some in. Thanks.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd say something like, "All rights reserved. For reprint permission, write to" and an email address.

When you do grant permission, spell out exactly what rights, where, and for how long, and what language you want as far as identifying it as your work (linkbacks, and so on).

[aertep]

Thank you, that is most helpful.

[James D. Macdonald]

I posted this before in another thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=581). I'm going to put it here, too:

==========

What type of "promotion" should one expect from a publisher once a book deal has been struck?

I'm going to talk about novels here, because that's what I know about.

Things vary, of course, but the minimum you should expect:

1) Review copies/advance reading copies well in advance of publication to major venues (Booklist, Library Journal, Kirkus, Publishers Weekly) plus major newspapers, and any specialized magazines that deal with your subject matter (you'll work with your publisher on this -- you know your subject).

2) Ads in trade publications.

3) Listed in the catalog.

4) Talked up by the sales force.

5) Press releases to state and local newspapers (you'll work with your publisher on this, too -- they'll already have a list, you can add to it.) Press releases should have copies of the book attached. (A press release without a copy of the book is wasted paper.)

Attractive cover, carefully written back cover blurb ... those should go without saying.

TV/Radio/Newspaper ads, book signings, book tours ... they're a waste of time and money for a first novel. There are other resources a publisher can use, depending ... they vary from foiled-and-embossed covers, up through endcaps, shelf talkers, front-of-the-store placement ... depends on whether they think that the book will get enough extra sales that way to pay for the extra expense.

The single biggest reason someone buys a novel is because they read and enjoyed a previous book by the same author. The next biggest reason anyone buys a novel is because a trusted friend recommended it. All the other reasons fade into single-digit percentages.

A first novelist doesn't have that earlier novel that someone read (that's one reason selling short stories is important, even though there isn't a lot of money in them). So you have to rely on the early adopters, the adventurous folks who pull books off the shelf even if they've never heard of the author, to tell everyone in their carpool or in their bridge club, "You have to read Nameofbook!"

This is tough. But the single most important thing to do is write your second book. Make it better than the first. Then you will have all the people who read and enjoyed your first book buying it, and talking to their friends.

[jchines]

"But the single most important thing to do is write your second book. Make it better than the first."

Thanks ... as if I wasn't anxious enough about my second book coming out in a few weeks :)

Seriously, the advice and experience are much appreciated!

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

(Everyone, give Jennifer a round of applause. And thank her in the best way: Read her book. Then Will Come Night and Darkness (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/1879378523/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/). Buy one; better still, buy a dozen. They make excellent gifts.)Whoo-hoo, Jennifer! Kudos and congrats!

And congrats to Dave as well! I'll have to take a listen tonight before I go to sleep....

[Jennifer L]

Thanks, Nicole.

Upthread I mentioned my beta reader's response to my WIP, and you said it was perfectly possible that my beta meant one thing and I inferred another.

So I did sit down with her to ask for more specifics and it turns out that she did think she was giving me a compliment (and liked the novel), but that she felt she was not familiar enough with the genre to get a feel for what readers would want or expect. (That's not something I particularly need her to worry about, but that's why she didn't have much to say -- she felt inexpert as a reader in the genre.)

The interesting thing was that she said the ending answered questions the rest of the book didn't ask (oy!), which reminded me of Uncle Jim saying he very often writes toward an ending that he doesn't end up using in that particular book. So clearly I had an ending in sight, but it's not the right ending for this book. I was concerned because I felt as if the WIP headed in the wrong direction early but I didn't know what to do about it; now I realize that the WIP just headed in a different direction, and that a changed ending to match the book as it exists is really all that's required.

That plus a month in a drawer somewhere.

And I did find another beta -- as others here suggested, I found another writer and she is extremely helpful, seeing the kinds of things I need her to see.

So I appreciate all the good info and advice from everyone.

Jennifer Lawler

[bsolah]

That's some interesting thoughts about the beta reading feeling inexperienced with the genre; When I finished what I thought was the final edit of a horror short story of mine, my mum, wanting to be supportive and encouraged asked to have a read. She read the whole thing through and said that she liked it. "A bit of mystery," she said. Somehow I wasn't quite convinced she liked it. Was it shit? Did it make sense? Did it totally make her think differently of me?

Your comment and another exchange with my mum has put things in perspective. Last week, mum saw that I had bought a copy of The Game, a twisted horror movie with Michael Douglas in it. Her eyes widened in horror and she said, "I hated that movie, but you'll love it."

It seems mum just isn't a horror fan.

[James D. Macdonald]

The truth about the literary life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt_7KhSbExE

[jamiehall]

That's some interesting thoughts about the beta reading feeling inexperienced with the genre; When I finished what I thought was the final edit of a horror short story of mine, my mum, wanting to be supportive and encouraged asked to have a read. She read the whole thing through and said that she liked it. "A bit of mystery," she said. Somehow I wasn't quite convinced she liked it. Was it shit? Did it make sense? Did it totally make her think differently of me?

Your comment and another exchange with my mum has put things in perspective. Last week, mum saw that I had bought a copy of The Game, a twisted horror movie with Michael Douglas in it. Her eyes widened in horror and she said, "I hated that movie, but you'll love it."

It seems mum just isn't a horror fan.

In a writing group I'm in, we had considerable problems a couple of years ago with readers who criticized work because it was a genre they didn't like or understand. We had to make rules about it. One member actually said "People don't want to read about space ships" and I could hardly keep my jaw from hitting the floor.

In a previous club I had been in, where the average age seemed to be about 85, some of the members tried to convince me that nobody wanted to read about werewolves! They did not try to say that the market was oversaturated, but that it was an uninteresting topic!

Where would we be if nobody wrote about space ships or werewolves?


:Jaw: :Jaw: :Jaw: :Jaw: :Jaw: :Huh: :Huh:

[Niteowl]

Where would we be if nobody wrote about space ships or werewolves?

It would be a sad, sad world. A world bereft of joy, the laughter of children, or a sunny afternoon naps on the beach. A world where the mere suggestion of levity would be lambasted with a critical word and a flint edged stare.

It would also have less pew pew pew and RAWR and oddly scary hairballs.

[smsarber]

The gang's all here!!
:e2teeth: :e2chain: :e2headban :e2cat: :e2hammer: :Guitar: :Hail: :Hail: :Hail: :Guitar: :e2zipped: Maybe I'll put a werewolf in a spaceship. Sounds interesting.

[Niteowl]

Or a spaceship in a werewolf! It'll be like "Inner Space" meets "Teenwolf"! That's all sorts of awesome!

[James D. Macdonald]

Action is movement.

That movement may be physical, it may be mental, it may be emotional, it may be moral ... but ... it's moving.

[James D. Macdonald]

Kurt Vonnegut offers advice on writing:

http://puppetmaker40.livejournal.com/326453.html

Some writing advice by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. on the subject of short stories from Bagombo Snuff Box
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0399145052/ref=nofollow/madhousemanor/)
1. Use the time of a total stranger in such a way that he or she will not feel the time was wasted.

2. Give the reader at least one character he or she can root for.

3. Every character should want something, even if it is only a glass of water.

4. Every sentence must do one of two things -- reveal character or advance the action.

5. Start as close to the end as possible.

6. Be a sadist. No matter how sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to them -- in order that the reader may see what they are made of.

7. Write to please just one person. If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia.

8. Give your readers as much information as possible as soon as possible. To heck with suspense. Readers should have such complete understanding of what is going on, where and why, that they could finish the story themselves, should cockroaches eat the last few pages.

[James D. Macdonald]

Monday, April 23rd, is International Pixel-Stained Technopeasant Day.

That's the day to post a complete story or novel, your best work, on your webpage for anyone to read absolutely free.

Details here: http://papersky.livejournal.com/318273.html

[aertep]

Monday, April 23rd, is International Pixel-Stained Technopeasant Day.

That's the day to post a complete story or novel, your best work, on your webpage for anyone to read absolutely free.

Details here: http://papersky.livejournal.com/318273.html


Also the day we celebrate the birth of Mr. Shakespeare, is it not? So it's apropos, as his stuff is in the public domain (aka free) these days as well.

[James D. Macdonald]

One of the dead yesterday at Virgina Tech was Christopher J. "Jamie" Bishop, son of science fiction writer Michael Bishop.

It is given to no man to know the day or hour.

[James D. Macdonald]

I've just learned of a new time-and-energy waster for writers: http://charteo.us/

These nice folks will make automatic graphs of your book's Amazon sales rank.

Naturally my first move was to add Mist and Snow's ISBN (http://charteo.us/amzn/items/0060819197). Please help move the graph-line upward. You can make little Jimmy smile, or you can turn the page....

[Mom'sWrite]

The truth about the literary life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt_7KhSbExE

I know you know this already and you've heard it a million times but YOU ROCK UNCLE JIM!

Can I buy you a beer?

[James D. Macdonald]

Can I buy you a beer?

Why -- yes! Yes, you can!

In the meantime, buy my books....

[lfraser]

Why -- yes! Yes, you can!

In the meantime, buy my books....

I've just ordered a copy of Land of Mist and Snow and am looking forward to reading it. In the meantime, thanks again for all you do for us on this form.

[Mom'sWrite]

Why -- yes! Yes, you can!

In the meantime, buy my books....

With pleasure, sir.

I have The Land of Mist and Snow (signed by the author and treasured by me.) I need to order The Apocalypse Door and of course I'm wondering if I can still get my hands on a copy of Atlanta Nights.

My friends at Mission Liquors and Wines (www.missionliquor.com (http://www.missionliquor.com)) won't deliver to New Hampshire. Jerks. Someday though, first round's on me.

[James D. Macdonald]

You can indeed still get a copy of Atlanta Nights (http://www.lulu.com/content/102550). The perfect book if one leg of your dining room table is too short!

[James D. Macdonald]

Yet another POD-cast: http://podibleparadise.com/?p=24

(Who says I don't like POD?)

[James D. Macdonald]

In honor of International Pixel-stained Technopeasant Wretch Day, I've put up one of our short stories, The Queen's Mirror (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/L_queenmirror.htm).

Y'all enjoy.

http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/pixelstained.jpeg

[James D. Macdonald]

That was so much fun I did it again: On Suivi Point (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/L_suivi.htm)

[James D. Macdonald]

It's been a while (since March, 2004, if you must know) since I've done a wrapup of the books and movies and articles we've discussed and linked to from here. So that can be this morning's project.

The Best of HapiSofi:

Lee Shore Literary Agency (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15560&postcount=2)

Need Advice (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956)

Agents Charging Fees (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=978)


Sex Scenes, version II (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82911&postcount=624)

Typesetting (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=83076&postcount=789)

1st Books was OK (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14844&postcount=83)

Prologues (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82531&postcount=244)

Midbooks (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82834&postcount=547)

Tone (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82453&postcount=166)

PA Authors (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1860&postcount=367)

ST Comments I Love It! (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9283&postcount=62)

All PublishAmerica Titles are in the Library of Congress (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11316&postcount=142)

Decent Typesetting (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=94054&postcount=18)

================

Font:

Dark Courier (http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/SoftwareDescription.jsp?locBasepartNum=lj611en)

====================

Books:

Cut and Assemble Victorian Shingle-Style House (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0486290824)
Cut and Assemble Victorian Cottage (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0486273113)
Modern English Usage (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0192813897)
The Gangs of New York: An Informal History of the Underworld (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=1560252758)
New Skies (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0765340046)
Between the Darkness and the Fire (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=1880448564)
The Apocalypse Door (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0312869886)
Werewolves: A collection of original stories (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0060267984")
Otherwere: Stories of Transformation (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=044100363X)
Murder by Magic (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0446679623)
Writers Digest (http://www.writersdigest.com/GeneralMenu/)
The Killer Angels (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0345348109)
The Price of the Stars (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0812517040)
The Stars Asunder (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/TSAHEAD.HTM)
A Working of Stars (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/awoshead.htm)
[/URL]
[URL="http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0425143627"]Hunters' Moon (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004772.html)
Marvelous Max: the Mansion Mouse (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0964993449)
Tournament and Tower (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/WIZ2EXPT.HTM)
Aquatech Warriors (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/swift6.htm)
Tiger Cruise
(http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0812568591)Camelot (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0399225404)
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0261102591)
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0921149921)
Vampires (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0060502223)
The Treasure of the Sierra Madre (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0809001608)
Conjure Wife (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0812512960)
Starpilot's Grave (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0812517059)
The Summons (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0440241073)
The Street Lawyer (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0440225701)
Bruce Coville's Book of Spine Tinglers (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=059025930X)
Understanding Comics (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=006097625X)
Psycho (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0812519329)
The Silence of the Lambs (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0312195265)
The Foxfire Book (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0385073534)
Cosmic Tales: Adventures in Far Futures (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0743498879)

====================

Links:

Advice from Bookslut (http://www.bookslut.com/blog/archives/2004_03.php#001776)
Parody of Jane Austen Doe (http://www.teevee.org/archive/2004/04/01/arts-fanfic.html)
Harry Potter and the Horrid Pain of the Artiste (http://www.geocities.com/school_idiot/hp.htm)
Why 98% of the slushpile is unpublishable (http://www.sffworld.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2835-p-2.html)
International Slushpile Bonfire Day (http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.html?id=950)

H. W. Fowler (http://www.bartleby.com/116/index.html)
Yetanother Variant (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/001541.html#001541)
Warnings and Cautions for Writers (http://www.sfwa.org/beware/general.html)
How Gramatically Correct Are You? (http://www.quizilla.com/users/BaalObsidian/quizzes/How%20grammatically%20correct%20are%20you%3F%20%28 Revised%20with%20answer%20key%29/)
Medieval Numerology (http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents/Numerology.pdf)
The Last Real New Yorker in the World (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/NEWYORK.HTM)
Bestseller Lists 1900-1995 (http://www.caderbooks.com/bestintro.html)
Windhaven Press (http://www.windhaven.com/home/)
Viable Paradise Student Sales (http://www.sff.net/people/greg/vppubs.html)
The Certainities of Life (http://books.guardian.co.uk/posysimmonds/page/0,12694,1152704,00.html)
The Literary Life (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005104.html)
You're Published. Now the Fun Begins? Think Again. (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/14/books/14HUMI.html?ex=1397275200&en=1a6d0536eb304c28&ei=5%20007&partner=USERLAND&pagewanted=print&position=)
Scrivener's Error (http://scrivenerserror.blogspot.com/)
CafePress (http://www.cafepress.com/viableparadi,yog_1,yog_2)
Print On Demand (http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/sell/books.aspx)
Five Deadly Sins (http://books.guardian.co.uk/posysimmonds/page/0,12694,1201995,00.html)
What Kind of Writer are You? (http://www.quizilla.com/users/edeainfj/quizzes/What%20kind%20of%20writer%20are%20you?/)
(http://www.zonelabs.com/store/content/home.jsp)The Fight Crime! (http://www.theyfightcrime.org/)
Celtic Knotwork (http://www.abbott.demon.co.uk/knots.html)
Harry of Five Points (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005174.html#47815)
Pericles, Prince of Tired Plots (http://www.yarnivore.com/francis/archives/000405.html)
Skinhead Hamlet (http://www.sa.rochester.edu/drama/skinhead.html)
Romeo and Juliet, as performed by Peeps (http://www.theplainjane.com/peep_plays/rj_scene01.html)
The Cask of Amontillado (http://www.literature.org/authors/poe-edgar-allan/amontillado.html)
Viable Paradise (http://www.sff.net/paradise/)
ISBN Checksum Calculator (http://www.morovia.com/education/utility/upc-ean.asp)
Fold a paper pressman's hat (http://hotlinecy.com/images/hat.pdf)
Speed Writing (http://www.writing-world.com/basics/block4.shtml)
On the Getting of Agents (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004772.html)
The Walrus and the Carpenter (http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/walrus.html)
Panel Looks At Financing of Book by Rowland's Wife (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/11/nyregion/11impeach.html?ex=1177819200&en=3f7645ade81d1f13&ei=5070)
The F-word Song (http://members.aol.com/berrymanp/alyrics/fword.html)
Hang on the Bell, Nellie (http://www.scoutorama.com/song/song_display.cfm?song_id=241)
A Visit from St. Nicholas (http://www.kidsdomain.com/holiday/xmas/stories/niteb4.html)
Sovay (http://www.garrygillard.net/carthy/songs/sovay.html)
Lime Pie (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82651&postcount=364)
Slushkiller (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html)
Susanna Clarke's Magic Book (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/01/magazine/01CLARKE.html?ex=1249099200&en=2fea0b3cbfbd17d9&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland)
Jump-starting a Stalled (or Dead) Career (http://www.sfwa.org/writing/restart.htm)
Stalled Careers, Writer's Block, and Monsters Under the Bed (http://www.sfwa.org/bulletin/articles/stalled.htm)
Bookslut (http://www.bookslut.com/blog/)
Writers are Terrorists (http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2004_10_24_digbysblog_archive.html#109864025365506 773)
Bakeless Literary Prizes (http://www.middlebury.edu/academics/blwc/bakeless/)
Holly Black's Writing Resources (http://www.blackholly.com/writingresources.htm)
Storytelling (http://www.tiedtothetracks.com/storytelling/)
Report to the Authors Guild Midlist Books Study Committee (http://www.authorsguild.org/miscfiles/midlist.pdf)
Le Bar aux Folies Bergere (http://www.gymsm.krefeld.schulen.net/tric/ecrivo/ville_manet.htm)
L'Empire des Lumieres (http://www.essentialart.com/acatalog/Rene_Magritte_L_Empire_des_Lumieres_1954.html)
Origami Crane
(http://www.monkey.org/%7Eaidan/origami/crane/)
====================

Movies:

Jose Chung's "From Outer Space" (http://video.barnesandnoble.com/DVD/The-X-Files-Season-3/David-Duchovny/e/24543222590/)
Jose Chung's "Doomsday Defense" (http://video.barnesandnoble.com/DVD/Millennium-Season-2/Lance-Henriksen/e/024543117643)
A Fistful of Dollars (http://video.barnesandnoble.com/DVD/A-Fistful-of-Dollars/Clint-Eastwood/e/027616785824/)
Shakespeare in Love (http://video.barnesandnoble.com/DVD/Shakespeare-in-Love/Joseph-Fiennes/e/717951005458/)
The Texas Chainsaw Massacre (http://video.barnesandnoble.com/DVD/The-Texas-Chainsaw-Massacre/Marilyn-Burns/e/030306629292/)
28 Days Later (http://video.barnesandnoble.com/DVD/28-Days-Later/Cillian-Murphy/e/024543088172/)

[paritoshuttam]

Er... I am getting an "invalid link" error for the first Sex scenes link.

[Nangleator]

Frustrating, isn't it?

[James D. Macdonald]

Looks like that thread has been removed. (Occasionally inactive threads -- ones that haven't gotten post in year or two -- get trimmed.)

Not to worry -- most of the same material was reposted in this thread and this thread isn't going away.

I'll delete the dead link.

[Nangleator]

What's involved in serializing a novel for magazine publication?

Would I be done if my novel had chapter breaks at the 1/3 and 2/3 position, with fairly strong story breaks? Or would it need to be written so those breaks were definitely cliffhangers?

Does each of the last two installments have to have a summation in the text, or written by the author?

Finally, is it a good way to publish a novel? (Assuming the magazine just gets first time rights.)

[James D. Macdonald]

If there's a magazine that still serializes novels ... work it out with the editor. Generally they'll go with chapter breaks. Your chapter breaks should all end on a strong note, at a natural breaking place, with the urge for the reader to start the next chapter built in.

[James D. Macdonald]

Royalties are trickling in. Just got the money from Harcourt, with the three "Dozens" anthologies: A Wizard's Dozen (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/wizahead.htm), A Starfarer's Dozen (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/starhead.htm), and A Nightmare's Dozen (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/nighhead.htm). Total around forty bucks, but then these have been going, twice a year, since 1993. A tank of gas....

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Royalties are trickling in. Just got the money from Harcourt, with the three "Dozens" anthologies: A Wizard's Dozen (http://A%20Wizard%27s%20Dozen), A Starfarer's Dozen (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/starhead.htm), and A Nightmare's Dozen (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/nighhead.htm). Total around forty bucks, but then these have been going, twice a year, since 1993. A tank of gas....


I'm impressed ... not by the forty bucks obviously, but rather by the fact these works have been in print so long.

Even so, the forty bucks is somewhat of an encouragement to me, because of my past association with a house prominent in the Bewares and Background Check forums. The forty makes me realize a good working author can make a lot more than said house claims, even years down the road.

[James D. Macdonald]

Royalties from novels come via my agent. Short stories they send me directly.

[AnnaWhite]

I have at last re-emerged from four months' hell, where too much work meant I had to give up writing. I'm back in my writing chair now, and determined to organise my life so that nothing will push me out of it again (except for eating, and sleeping, and reasonable bread-and-butter work, and other basics).

I'm re-working a novel where the main 'good' character is born to defeat the main 'bad' character. So, an important part of the story happens before the birth of the heroine. Originally, the book started with the birth of the heroine, and later in the story, she and her friends read about the 'bad' character in a history book. This made for a slow start to the story, and a thoroughly boring history lesson.

I feel the story would be more alive if I ‘showed’ the baddie in the first chapter - it means a much more dramatic start to the book, especially because I could catch the moment of change, when he is 'becoming' bad.

But now I'm worrying about the fact that the heroine only appears in chapter two. I remember Uncle Jim saying that the main protagonist should always feature in the first paragraph, that it's a bit like baby ducks imprinting, you need your hero/heroine right at the start.

I wonder, though, if it would be acceptable because although he is not a hero, the main baddie is in no way a secondary character; in fact, the story would never have existed without him. In a way, he is even more necessary than the heroine. Even if later on the story is about the heroine and her friends, the baddie is always the elephant in the background.

On the other hand, being a novice writer I don't want to break any rules - though I'm aware that like many other writing rules, this has occasionally been broken by experienced writers. But I’m not in the rule-breaking category yet.

[jdparadise]

Me, I'd use Big Bad in Chapter 2. Maybe with a leadout (if the MC knows about BB) where she's talking about him with her friends...

If you do this, though, you -must- go back to BB's POV in later chapters; you can't just use it once and throw it away.

[Chris Grey]

Your story is about your villain.

I'm inferring a lot, so correct me where I'm wrong. You want your story to be about your heroine and her friends and their exploits, but your heroine is boring. What is her motivation, what are her dreams? The way you describe her, she doesn't have anything heroic to do until she learns about the villain-- and this is why you need to introduce him immediately. A compelling story tends to begin with a character in a place with a problem. Your heroine doesn't seem the kind of girl who'd get into trouble on her own, so you need the villain to push her out of the nest and make her fly. (Alternately, you could have Gandalf show up and make her chase after dragons)

So, story's about the villain, as told from the point of view of the heroine. Story's not interesting until the villain gives her a problem to get in, though. And you need the Interesting Stuff in the first paragraph. So... solutions?

1. in media res it. Start after the villain mucked things up for her, when she's already left home to defeat him and has already gotten in trouble. Then backstory the rest as subtly as possible.

2. Put the heroine's world in the villain's shadow. Not a page goes by in a Harry Potter book without mention of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named or some repercussion of his actions. Voldemort changed the world, and everything reflects that change. He only shows up like three times, but even happiest moments of the series are in his shadow.

3. There's a time to show and there's a time to tell. Showing is for emotions ("___ trembled" vs "___ was afraid"), telling is for when it works. Compare the red-shirted ensigns of Star Trek (or the nunnery that exists just to get sacked) to Frank & Alice Longbottom. Nobody cares when that guy who just got introduced gets killed, and most readers can see that trick coming a mile away. But all we got on Neville Longbottom's parents was a little exposition and it worked chillingly. Slip some exposition into the action subtly enough and your readers won't care that you didn't show it.

5. Whatever works.

No reason you must show your villain in the beginning, even if he is the driving force to your story. Hint at him, talk of him, cast the world in his shadow if you must, but don't show him until you're ready to.

[James D. Macdonald]

Write the book.

Later, in the rewrite, you can figure what goes into chapter one and what goes into chapter two.

For all we know the second draft will start with a chapter you haven't written yet and both your current chapter one and chapter two will be in the discard pile.

Get the words on paper. When you reach The End the contents of chapter one will be clearer to you.

[AnnaWhite]

Write the book.

Thanks, Uncle Jim, that's the advice I needed! I could spend forever puzzling over how to write it, otherwise.

[AnnaWhite]

I'm inferring a lot, so correct me where I'm wrong. You want your story to be about your heroine and her friends and their exploits, but your heroine is boring. What is her motivation, what are her dreams? The way you describe her, she doesn't have anything heroic to do until she learns about the villain-- and this is why you need to introduce him immediately. A compelling story tends to begin with a character in a place with a problem. Your heroine doesn't seem the kind of girl who'd get into trouble on her own, so you need the villain to push her out of the nest and make her fly.

Hey, Chris, did you read my book already? Your inferences are too accurate for words! Especially the bit about the heroine not being the kind of girl to get herself into trouble on her own :D

Thanks heaps for all the suggestions.

[allenparker]

I used to believe that I understood these things, but after reading AW for a couple of years, I realize that I don't. So, when you don't know, you either ask a stupid question of a smart person, or ask a smart question to yourself.

Here goes.

What defines a prologue?
What makes it any different than an introduction?


What are the main advantages to each?
What are the disadvantages?

Who will care which you use?
Who will care if you use neither of them, both of them, or mix and match as the wind gives direction?

[Nangleator]

I could spend forever puzzling over how to write it, otherwise.
Don't make my mistakes! Don't let these things stop you cold while writing the first draft:

"Oops, I'm straying from my outline"
"Uh-oh, I don't have an outline!"
"I can do the opening better."
"This is all crap. I'd better edit before I write more."
"I need to research first." (Okay, there's some stuff you have to research, I suppose. Maybe do that research before you start the book.)

[aertep]

Don't make my mistakes! Don't let these things stop you cold while writing the first draft:

"Oops, I'm straying from my outline"
"Uh-oh, I don't have an outline!"
"I can do the opening better."
"This is all crap. I'd better edit before I write more."
"I need to research first." (Okay, there's some stuff you have to research, I suppose. Maybe do that research before you start the book.)

Ha, Nangleator, that's great. You're so right. The reason I got through my first draft is because I was clueless enough to think I was good, so I didn't edit until I finished it. I wrote the whole novel and set it aside for a couple of months, then read it. Oh, it was bad!

But it was finished, and it had some gems in it, and I had enjoyed writing it. So I got to work on the second draft, at the same time studying good writers and doing everything I could to learn to make my writing better. The second draft took forever to write. I kept editing. It was much, much better and much, much longer. Waaaaaaaaaaay long.

Third time's a charm, they say.

[Chris Grey]

Hey, Chris, did you read my book already? Your inferences are too accurate for words! Especially the bit about the heroine not being the kind of girl to get herself into trouble on her own :D

Thanks heaps for all the suggestions.

I haven't read your book, but I have read lots of comic books ;) Heroes tend to want life to be peaceful and good, so they fight crime and right wrongs. But they only do so when crime exists to be fought and wrongs exist to be righted, right? What would Superman do if every ___ Luthor in Metropolis retired and just spent their days playing golf? What would your heroine do if the villain tripped over his own feet and fell to his death?

It's a protagonist vs antagonist thing, and the protagonist tends to be the villain. Who is on the quest to conquer the world or rob the liquor store? The villains. They're the ones with the dreams (of ill-gotten gain) and the plans, they're the ones with motivation. Who gets in their way and tries to stop them? The heroes. Villain acts, hero reacts. It works.

[James D. Macdonald]

One way to tell who your protagonist is is to look at your last chapter and see who's in it.

[aertep]

One way to tell who your protagonist is is to look at your last chapter and see who's in it.

Last one standing's the protagonist?

[James D. Macdonald]

If the protagonist isn't in the last chapter, or isn't the main topic of conversation in the last chapter, perhaps you should rethink who the protagonist is.

[James D. Macdonald]

I should mention that it's entirely possible for someone who died before Chapter One to be the protagonist.

============

Meanwhile, Good News! This year's Christmas Challenge story sold, to Fantasy & Science Fiction (http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/). They have up to three years to publish it, but they pay on acceptance. Go team us!

[BardSkye]

Go you! Congratulations.

Not that anyone on this thread expected any less, of course. :D

[Sailor Kenshin]

I should mention that it's entirely possible for someone who died before Chapter One to be the protagonist.



:D
As in Yuu Yuu Hakusho---but that's not a novel.

[JoNightshade]

Is it possible to have multiple protagonists? At the moment I'm writing a novel which has two characters who revolve around a third person. So the story is split between them (as they have two separate lives), but they both intersect at the third character.

Which begs the question, is the third character actually my protagonist?

I think I just answered my own question.

[aertep]

[quote=James D. Macdonald;1332181]I should mention that it's entirely possible for someone who died before Chapter One to be the protagonist.
quote]

Lovely Bones.

...and congrats, Uncle Jim.

[James D. Macdonald]

Is it possible to have multiple protagonists?

Gosh 'n golly you betcha!

Our first novel we had eight.

Main character, protagonist, antagonist, all these fiddly definitions are more of interest to academics, I think.

As long as you have characters that your readers can identify with, and you reveal those characters to those readers, you will not have gone far wrong.

[James D. Macdonald]

Where Margaret Mitchell got the title for her novel:

Non Sum Qualis Eram Bonae sub Regno Cynarae



Last night ah, yesternight, betwixt her lips and mine
There fell thy shadow, Cynara! Thy breath was shed
Upon my soul between the kisses and the wine;
And I was desolate and sick of an old passion,
Yea, I was desolate and bowed my head:
I have been faithful to thee, Cynara! in my fashion.

All night upon mine heart I felt her warm heart beat,
Night-long within mine arms in love and sleep she lay;
Surely the kisses of her bought red mouth were sweet;
But I was desolate and sick of an old passion,
When I awoke and found the dawn was gray:
I have been faithful to thee, Cynara! in my fashion.

I have forgot much, Cynara! gone with the wind,
Flung roses, roses riotously with the throng,
Dancing, to put thy pale, lost lilies out of mind;
But I was desolate and sick of an old passion,
Yea, all the time, because the dance was long:
I have been faithful to thee, Cynara! in my fashion.

I cried for madder music and for stronger wine,
But when the feast is finished and the lamps expire,
Then falls thy shadow, Cynara the night is thine;
And I am desolate and sick of an old passion,
Yea hungry for the lips of my desire:
I have been faithful to thee, Cynara! in my fashion.


-- Ernest Dowson

[aertep]

Thank you for that, Jim. There's an echo of it in me, I must have read it long ago but forgotten it. How beautiful and sad.

[aertep]

At http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/711.html (http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/711.html) (which looks like a cool site), I found this:

The Latin title is from the opening of Horace's Odes, Book 4.1:

Intermissa, Venus, diu
rursus bella moues? Parce precor, precor.
Non sum qualis eram bonae
sub regno Cinarae.

[T]ranslated by John Conington [London: G. Bell, 1909] as "Yet again
thou wak'st the flame / That long had slumber'd! Spare me, Venus,
spare! / Trust me, I am not the same / As in the reign of Cinara, kind
and fair".

[James D. Macdonald]

Department of Oh, the Humanity! (http://www.unfogged.com/archives/week_2007_05_20.html#006831)

When we married, it was with the well-intended but overly optimistic understanding that she would support my writing until my writing could support us both. And so I have written short stories and poems and novels and essays and newspaper articles and much more. I have spent thousands of dollars attending writing conferences and hiring professional editors to help me perfect my manuscripts. And I have never made more than a pittance in return for these literary labors.


Make sure you read the comments.

[Kristin Landon]

Oh, Lord.

[ClaudiaGray]

I think Grandma Julie may want to get out while the getting is good.

[James D. Macdonald]

Many years ago, Doyle (my co-author) was teaching college freshmen.

She was approached by a student who wanted to know why it was that, even though nothing had been marked wrong in her essay, she nevertheless got a B.

Doyle said "For an A paper I expect something more than technical correctness. 'No errors' is not good enough."

The student said, "You mean I have to be interesting too?"

And in this moment the student achieved enlightenment.

[Ullikummis]

So, you're telling me that those 10 blank pages I sent off the FSF are going to be rejected...

[slythwolf]

From a couple of pages ago (I've just caught up):

I usually find theme by re-reading the text, then using that knowledge to help make decisions in the revision stage.

I'm learning writing is one of those things you do that when you look back at it you learn new things about yourself. Find the themes in your stories, and you'll find out what you really believe in.

[James D. Macdonald]

You may learn what you really believe in.

Or you may not.

Right now I believe I'll have a cup of coffee....

[James D. Macdonald]

My Favorite Font (http://www.slate.com/id/2166947/): Anne Fadiman, Jonathan Lethem, Richard Posner, and others reveal what font they compose in and why.


========

On the subject of openings, I recall the (perhaps apocryphal) story of the author whose short story had been rejected from a magazine that specialized in "spicy stories."

"There isn't enough sex in it," said the edtior.

"Whaddaya mean?" said the author. "There's sex on the very first page!"

"Yeah, but it's near the bottom."

(This would have been in the days of the pulps, when authors dropped by the editors' offices in New York City to hand in their stories and pick up their checks. Ah, the golden days! We'll never see their likes again....)

=======

Do y'all remember when, back on page 246 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710&page=246), I posted this and asked, "Would you turn the page?"

Never have I felt quite so worldly as I did on my very first real date, when, after considered perusal of the wine list, I masterfully commanded the waiter at the Log Cabin restaurant in Lenox, Massachusetts, to fetch me a bottle of Mateus Rosé. In its distinctive Buddah-shaped bottle, with its slight spritz, it represented a step up from the pink Almaden that my friends and I sucked down in order to get into the proper Dionysian frame of mind for the summer rock concerts at Tanglewood. (And that seemed a classic accompaniment--rather like Chablis and oysters--to the cheap Mexican pot we were smoking at the time.) Later, of course, as I discovered the joys of dry reds and whites, I learned to sneer at pink wine; it seemed--as Winston Churchill once remarked regarding the moniker of an acquaintance named Bossom--that it was neither one thing nor the other. A few summers ago a bottle of Domaines Ott rosé in conjunction with a leg of marinated grilled lamb cured me of this particular prejudice; I thought I'd died and gone to Provence, though in fact I was at my friend Steve's birthday party in the Hamptons.

Well, ask yourself, punk: Would you?

That's the first page of a published novel. In a bit, a line-by-line to see what the author was doing.

[Little Red Barn]

Hi Jim, periods before all which's?
Thank you and happy Memorial Day,

[James D. Macdonald]

... periods before all which's?


Hunh?

[JJ Cooper]

Hi Jim,

Apologies if you have answered these questions before.

I am working on my first novel (mystery/thriller/suspense) and my first six chapters are around my MC. This has been written in third limited. I am now introducing another character (new chapter) where my MC is not involved at this stage. Circumstances bring these two together at a later stage of the novel.

Should I write this new character in third limited as well? At the moment I have written it in third omni but it just doesn't seem to hold as well as previous chapters. This character has three chapters by herself before meeting up with the MC.

Following this, if I write both charcters in third limited how do I write it when they come together?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

JJ

[James D. Macdonald]

Should I write this new character in third limited as well?

Alas, I don't know that answer. In general, only if it works best that way.


At the moment I have written it in third omni but it just doesn't seem to hold as well as previous chapters.

Ah, then it isn't working.

Try another POV. See if it works better. That's the re-writing stage, though. For now I'd bull through to THE END. But that's me -- something else may work best for you.


Following this, if I write both charcters in third limited how do I write it when they come together?

Try third limited. If it doesn't work ... try something else. No one but you will read your first drafts.

[JJ Cooper]

Thanks Jim. I was worried there were some 'rules' that I needed to follow. I will go with what appears to work for the characters.

I appeciate your time.

JJ

[Ken Schneider]

Hi all. Haven't been around for a while, been doing some serious writing.

Question UJ.

Now being deep into my current WHIP, I want to go back and add a beginning with some action that ties in later.

When writing this first— part, would you suggest that the length of this opening be a chapter, or a couple paragrapghs?

Thanks in advance
Ken

[James D. Macdonald]

Ken, I can't answer that. The length of the new opening should be as long as it needs to be, but no longer.

I would advise that you wait until you reach "The End" before you add it, though if it's screaming to be written by all means write it.

Next:

Yesterday I watched Pan's Labyrinth (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/B00005JPA6/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) on DVD, then immediately afterward watched it again with the director's commentary. What a lovely example of storytelling! May I suggest to y'all that you do the same?

[Ken Schneider]

Thanks, Jim. I'll wait.

[James D. Macdonald]

Do y'all know what the one unforgivable sin is? It's being boring. You can get away with almost anything -- as long as you aren't boring.

[aertep]

Hi Jim,

Here's a question for you: I read somewhere--maybe here--that sales of a first book can affect whether or not your second book gets published. Fair enough. What if your first and second books are for completely different audiences?

I have a non-fiction book of humor essays with a small target audience that might sell relatively well with that audience. I'm also working on a novel (mainstream women's fiction). Let's say I got the essays published first, and they sold well. Total sales are small, though, due to that small audience factor. Would that reflect badly on me when I start to shop the novel?

Assuming the novel's not boring, of course.

[James D. Macdonald]

Pseudonym.

Really.

One of the Things That Happen is the major chain bookstores order to net -- their preorders equal the sales of your last book. But changing your name (as little as using or not using your middle initial) makes you a new author from their point of view.

Write the novel, make it non-boring, and be prepared to have this discussion with your editor.

(As to the question of the sales affecting the sale of your book to another publisher, they'll be looking at sell-through: the ratio of books printed to books that went home in a customer's hand.)