Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[Dru]

Milton, does the reader need to know the background, or do the characters? If the latter, then you can provide the 'news you can use', but unless the characters, moving through the story-space, need the information, I would be hesitant of clogging up the story with backstory.

It also depends on the novel though, as in some sub-genres, it might be perfectly fine. Like an epistolary or Dickensonian tale. (Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell by Susanna Clarke comes to mind). Tons of backstory might fall flat in a more present-tense action narrative.

Another way to put it. Is the information there because you feel it needs it, or because the reader actually needs it?

[Berry]

I agree with Dru. If this story doesn't need it, leave it out. After all, in a detective story when the cop says "You have the right to remain silent", we don't need to learn about the Miranda Decision, the Supreme Court, the structure of the American legal system and the founding principals of the constitutional rights we have today.

If you've done all this work for your world, though, it will come through in the depth of detail that you show the readers. Just don't feed it all to them at once.

[aertep]

Help! My WIP turns out to be very heavy on background, with several tribes of people who have important backstories. Can anyone remind me of books that successfully presented tons of background? I'm at a loss about how to work it in.

--Milton

Milton, I'm not an expert, and others have given good answers.

There are probably lots of different ways to do this, depending on what you want your book to be.

I remember Frederik Pohl's outstanding novel, Gateway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_%28novel%29), the first in a series that imagines a complete world. Pohl creates a mystery about the world, its creatures and its history, so you have to keep reading to find out about them.

He doesn't give it to you all at once. He feeds it to you in little bits, almost as questions, making you wonder so you read on. Each answer only creates more questions. It's a wonderful book, and I'm not even a big sci-fi fan.

[Milton]

Thanks, everyone. I have read Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, Gateway, and Lord of the Rings. Jonathan Strange hugely intimidates me, but I should read Gateway again. I think Lord of the Rings is more leisurely than I can afford to be, but I could certainly learn from it. I might try something like Ringworld again, too.

The advice not to tell it all is good, and easy to forget. I also remember some masters like John D. MacDonald, who could take care of a character's backstory in a single fascinating paragraph.

Oh, well, I'll make it work. I'm learning that I can just wing it -- I can always fix it in the next version.

[anodyne]

Currently in the process of reading the undiluted version, and something sparked a question that bugged me all through work today.


Hey, that's nothing. In some of my outlines I have myself as a character, talking about what I want to have happen in a scene, discussing it with the characters.

Whatever it takes to get words on the page. You can work with words on the page. It's a lot harder to work on ideas that are only in your head.

What in the world does that look like? I keep trying to visualize it in my head. I'm not the type of girl who giggles often, but that worked. I keep imagining a Frankenstein/bird nest manuscript with chewing gum wrappers, pieces of kite string, and dialogue neck bolts sticking haphazardly out of some twigs.

I don't know if this has already happened, I'm only a little past the section I quoted in the thread, but can you (or rather will you,) post a sample outline? I know there are thousands of sayings about not showing unpolished writing in public, but I'm insanely curious. This concept fascinates me because it's so different from my usual approach and I'd like to try it, but I'm not exactly sure what it is.

P.S. In the unlikely event that I derail the current train of thought with my necromancy, I apologize.

[James D. Macdonald]

In The Lord of the Rings we don't get a whole lot of backstory until the Council of Elrond, by which time we've been chased from the Shire to Bree to Rivendell by Black Riders, gotten trapped by a barrow wight (and a willow), and much else besides ... and the reader cares about the characters and is asking "What the foo is going on?"

We also have the hobbits, who don't have a clue themselves, and so need to have everything explained them.

Giving the reader the impression that they're studying for a test is bad. Few people read geography books for fun.

[James D. Macdonald]

What in the world does that look like? I keep trying to visualize it in my head. I'm not the type of girl who giggles often, but that worked.

From The Gates of Time (work in progress):

"I don't have a plan," Satan said. "And this miracle isn't my doing. Angelo ... he's won. We're outside time and I can't touch him. Not only that, we're stuck here."

"Liar."

"Flattery will get you nowhere." He went over to the open doorway and pressed against the air. His hands stopped at the threshold.

"Then I have some things to do," I said. I pulled the elfstone out of my pocket and screwed it into my eye. Johnny was standing in the corner, having performed some vital function that the author will think of later. Perhaps he was the one who brought in the relic of St. Eloy and the pistol and gave them to me after I'd been searched. That would be a good thing for an invisible servant to do.

Anyway, I turned to Johnny. "I'm ready to hear your confession," I said.

"This might take a while," he said, coming toward me.

"No worries; we've got all the time in the world."

[James D. Macdonald]

A database of which agents sold which books to which publishers (in the SF & F genres) over the past two years:

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/%7Emgoodin19/locus.htm

[aertep]

In The Lord of the Rings we don't get a whole lot of backstory until the Council of Elrond, by which time we've been chased from the Shire to Bree to Rivendell by Black Riders, gotten trapped by a barrow wight (and a willow), and much else besides ... and the reader cares about the characters and is asking "What the foo is going on?"

We also have the hobbits, who don't have a clue themselves, and so need to have everything explained them.

Giving the reader the impression that they're studying for a test is bad. Few people read geography books for fun.

Yes! I woke up thinking of this today. The main character's POV is the reader's POV. So how is the MC getting information about the world of the story?

The MC learns as s/he goes along--as though s/he's completely new to the world. Or, if s/he's already deeply entrenched, then the information comes in as needed. When the MC needs it, the reader needs it. In Jim's example, the Hobbits get the information they (we) need at the Council of Elrond (when not only do we need it, but we're willing to listen).

I'm learning this, too. My MC has read about the world she's entered, but she's never been there before and what she's read doesn't always turn out to be true. So she has preconceived notions that come up against reality. It's coming down to Show, not Tell once again.

[aertep]

It strikes me that my previous post is so damned elementary. It's just that I get all gleeful when I learn something. :)

[BardSkye]

Nothing wrong with being gleeful at learning something. Learning should be fun.

And congratulations on the anniversary Uncle Jim! We have all enjoyed being a part of the thread and hope for many, many more anniversaries.

[James D. Macdonald]

What we're up to these days:

Publicity for our most recent book.

Yeah, I know, I keep saying that authors aren't in charge of doing publicity, yet here I am, doing publicity. So, what have I done?

Answer: I've put stuff about the book on my web page (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/). This is wonderful, and free (I already have a web page because, face it, who doesn't?). Whether it will lead to any sales, who knows?

I've talked about the book here, and in my news group at SFF Net (http://webnews.sff.net/read?cmd=xover&group=sff.people.doyle-macdonald&from=-10).

I have it in my sig line here at AW (I rotate various things through there) -- the sig changes, and by the time y'all read this perhaps something different will be in the sig. (Look at the bottom of this post.)

I posted the book in the AW library (http://webnews.sff.net/read?cmd=xover&group=sff.people.doyle-macdonald&from=-10). (More content for AW! Woo!)

I've been doing readings from works-in-progress at SF conventions for years. Since this book has been in progress for years....

When the publisher sent us a bunch of ARCs, I dropped them on various places (including my two local weekly newspapers). I live in a town of 2,000 people; those guys are personal friends of mine (the writers' community), and we got a couple of very nice newspaper articles out of 'em. Hurrah, go us!

Now the signings and such. Where did these come from?

Answer: from the publisher. They found the bookstores, and worked out the dates and times. (We talked to the publisher's publicity guy, he talked with the bookstores.)

And this leads us to the next bit, when we got an e-mail from New Hampshire Public Radio, asking if we'd like to be on one of their programs, about our upcoming book. The answer was, you betcha.

So yesterday we had a telephone pre-interview (to find out, perhaps, if we're the sort of authors who can actually talk, and have anything to say that might fill a half-hour). Upshot of that: We'll be on The Front Porch (http://www.nhpr.org/taxonomy/term/15000) on Monday, 27 November, 6:30PM EST.

This is New Hampshire Public Radio, and the show is available on the air, as streaming audio, and archived afterwards.


88.3, Nashua, WEVS
89.1, Concord, WEVO
90.3, Nashua, WEVO
90.7, Keene, WEVN
91.3, Littleton, WEVO
91.3, Hanover, WEVH
97.3, Plymouth
99.5, Jackson, WEVJ
103.9, Portsmouth
104.3, Dover, WEVO
107.1, Gorham, WEVC
MP3 Player Stream (http://peace.str3am.com:6400/listen.pls)
Windows Media (http://www.nhpr.org/nhprLIVE.asx)

[Nangleator]

Woo hoo! Close enough to Nashua that I can listen to the live broadcast.

Congratulations!

I will be listening hard for promotional interview techniques, although I think it probably boils down to "Remember my name the next time you're in the bookstore."

[jpserra]

with the red pencils and highlighters--cept my fav place is the back patio.

Another thing to add to the reading out-loud is to read it into a tape recorder and play it back. And a trick I am sure you know, but others might not--read your stuff backward, you find typos that way.

Shawn

Microsoft has a text to voice engine called Microsoft (of course) Reader. When I want to hear it read back, I generally use this. The voice is somewhat mechanical, but it gives me the option of listening and editing on the fly on the computer.

This has been very helpful in finding "pace killer" passages. It also helps find those troublesome duplicate phrases that sometimes elude the eye.

John Serra

[James D. Macdonald]

Rules for Writing: http://mumpsimus.blogspot.com/2006/11/rules-for-writing.html

As far as mechanical text-to-voice solutions: they can be fun. But reading it aloud has its own advantages. Machines won't get out of breath during over-long sentences. You will.

[BrendaK]

Isn't The Paris Review taking submissions any more? How about Harper's? Woman's Day? F&SF? Cemetary Dance? Hitchcock?
<snip>

Aim high, people. You won't know if you're good enough to play in the big leagues until you've submitted your stuff there. You should work down to the 1/4-cent-a-word and 4theluv places. You won't work your way up from them.

Hi, Uncle Jim.

This post spurred me to get my AW password reset so I could reply. I'm feeling contrary.

I understand what you're saying, but... I don't think Woman's Day publishes fiction any more. If they are, and if I ever write something that's suitable for them, please shoot me.

Regarding 1/4 cent a word, SIGH. My only published story to date (science fiction) is in Not One of Us--h/df/sf, 1/4 cent a word. When I got my author's copy, I read the whole issue and then ordered some back issues. Man! This editor thinks like I think! Wow!

Fast forward to this year. Another story--offbeat, definitely not for the mass market--is ready. The editor of Not One of Us still thinks like I think, and he's advertising for submissions. Maximize my chances of publication by submitting to an editor whose work I like and who bought a previous story? But he's still paying 1/4 cent a word.

Sigh, again. The story is currently at a 1 1/2-cent-a-word market. If that editor doesn't want it, I'll try elsewhere--still below the radar. But there was a good match between story and market at 1/4 cent a word.

Brenda Kalt

[Christine N.]

I think Women's Day runs a yearly novel contest. It might be a children's books contest. I forget who the publisher/partner for the contest is, I think it might be S&S?

Anyway, the terms for winning the contest are terrible. No money involved, just a bunch of free copies, and no rights to your work ever again. No royalties, even if the book goes on to be come one of their best-sellers.

Avoid it like the plague. There's a thread about it somewhere in the Children's writing forum. I'll see if I can dig it out.

ETA: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17707&highlight=Woman%27s+Day+contest

It's Scholastic that runs the contest with WD.

There's also one about the Woman's Day essay contest somewhere in the Networking: Sharing Leads forum. I don't know what that one says.

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's Woman's Day's essay guidelines (http://www.womansday.com/contact/5811/writers-guidelines-page3.html): $2,000 for 650 words.

Here's their article guidelines (http://www.womansday.com/contact/5811/writers-guidelines-page2.html).

Woman's Day isn't a fiction or poetry market in the USA.

Woman's Day in Australia (http://womansday.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=18304) is.

============

Brenda, if your story is good fit at Not One of Us, then sell it there. But really, do let the top markets reject it first. Don't reject it for them.

[ProsperitySue]

But really, do let the top markets reject it first. Don't reject it for them.

I appreciate your encouragement to think the best of our work. I've read through your thread and appreciated it very much. I've basically been a lurker because I was starting novels and getting stuck and starting another one.

This month I'm doing the NaNoWriMo thing and have worked through so many blocks. As I do this I think about how you started out getting up at 4 AM and writing a couple of hours before you went to work. And I remember your permission to write badly as long as my fingers are on the keyboard.

I'm plowing through without any edits at all -- that will be later. I'm finally getting what it's all about -- just write. I know now that I can finish. I can do this.

I can't tell you how good it feels to finally get it. Thanks to you, UJ, and all of the fine folks here at this thread for sharing your thoughts, ideas, and encouragement.

[anodyne]

Isn't it nice to have the extra motivation P-Sue?

Uncle Jim: Hi, it's me. I'm back again. :)
a.) your thread has gotten me writing again after a long hiatus.
b.) I love you forever, long-time.
c.) my husband has followed your advice, and is handing out the booklist for this thread whenever anyone asks us what we want for christmas.
d.) question to follow...

How do you feel about colloquialisms? And please, please, don't say that a sufficiently good writer can make anything work, and sufficiently ham-handed writer can break anything. It's true, but extremely unhelpful.

The reason I ask is because when my mom (and a couple of friends) heard through the grapevine that I was writing again, they demanded that I give them what chapters I had.

The feedback has been mostly typical, (can't wait for the next chapter, want to know how things end, think the writing is great) because they're my friends and family. They're sort of obligated to say that. But the one "criticism" has been that I use a particular phrase three times, and if it doesn't come up somewhere in the climax or conclusion then it's just irritating.

Going back to:
When a reader tells you something is wrong, they're right. When a reader tells you what it is, they're usually wrong.

Should I assume that there is a problem I need to fix, or just do the easy thing and take the phrase out (since it's just flavor anyway.)

Just so you don't have to list abstractions because you know nothing about my novel, the excerpts are below. Thanks!

=================================
Just a bit and some change over five feet tall, Lissa embodied the tree-hugging hippie stereotype. (31)
=================================
I stuck my tongue out at him. He’d always teased me about my sketches. There was a chalkboard a decade and some change before that bore testament to my revenge. (142)
=================================
Those are the only times I've used them, and since it's first person, and thus privileged speech, I wasn't sure if it's just something my mom doesn't like, or what. The novel, and the passages wouldn't be fundamentally altered if I removed the text.



Yes. I'm stalling. Race to the end. Write quickly, rewrite brilliantly. Got it.

[Theo Neel]

=================================
Just a bit and some change over five feet tall, Lissa embodied the tree-hugging hippie stereotype. (31)
=================================
I stuck my tongue out at him. He’d always teased me about my sketches. There was a chalkboard a decade and some change before that bore testament to my revenge. (142)
=================================


Although it's privileged speech, I'd still ax the "and change" part. It doesn't add color or description; it doesn't advance the story. It isn't neutral, either, because those two words slow down the tempo of the sentences. Try removing the two words and re-reading the sentences out loud. The second example is a particular stumble -- "and some change before" is hard to read.

IMHO

[James D. Macdonald]

If it was me, I'd leave the first and cut the second (put in the actual number, maybe).

Making the reader pause to figure out what you meant probably isn't a good idea.

Rewriting now, before you've reached "The End," probably isn't a good idea either. Unless you really gotta.

[anodyne]

Nope, don't gotta. Just a delaying tactic.

[BrendaK]

A belated suggestion for Milton, Dru, et al.:

I had the Fearless Leader give a (short) speech to his followers. As he reminded the followers why such-and-such was important, the reader was receiving the info for the first time.

When I tried to think of a real-world example in which the listeners didn't mind hearing what they already knew, I realized that the first third of the Gettysburg Address is pure information dump. The listeners all knew that 87 years ago their ancestors had created a country based on the principle of equality and that now they were fighting a war to preserve that country.

FWIW.

Brenda Kalt

[anodyne]

That's brilliant! Awesome idea.

[Ken Schneider]

Jim, Working on red pencil revisions, and additions, changes.

Is the possibility of striking 25,000 words of 85,000 story abnormal?

I haven't run into this much removal of material before.

I do feel that the additions and changes are better.

[James D. Macdonald]

Abnormal? Not at all. If there are 25,000 words that aren't the right words, cut 'em and replace 'em with the right words.

Our novel, Groogleman (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0152002359/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) (in French: la nuit des hommogres (http://www.amazon.fr/Vertige-vertige-fantastique-nuit-hommogres/dp/2012098185/sr=11-1/qid=1164729023/ref=sr_11_1/402-3882111-9884118)): at one point we cut everything after Chapter One and rewrote fresh from there. (I may still have the other book that it could-have-been around here somewhere.)

[Ken Schneider]

Thanks.

My copy of, Land of mist and snow, shipped today, can't wait to read it.

Back to work, Best everyone.

[James D. Macdonald]

I hope you like it.

Meanwhile:

Y'all know the three-point-plot outline:

1.) Get the hero up a tree.
2.) Throw rocks at him.
3.) Get him out of the tree.

And the seven-point plot outline:

1). Introduce the main/viewpoint character
2). Present him with a problem.
3). In a particular setting.
4). The character tries to solve the problem...
5). And fails.
6). The character tries to solve the problem again...
7). And receives validation.

Well, here's a very detailed working-out of those general plot outlines:

http://www.miskatonic.org/dent.html

Y'all can try writing a story based on that plot outline as your Christmas Challenge. As always, the challenge is to actually submit the story you wrote to an appropriate paying market.

The Post Office is closed on Christmas, and the mail is nuts in the days before ... shall we say the deadline for mailing your completed story (in accordance with the market's guidelines) is 26 December?

(If you finish your story early, lay it aside and give it a final read-through-and-polish on Christmas Day.)

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Y'all know the three-point-plot outline:

1.) Get the hero up a tree.
2.) Throw rocks at him.
3.) Get him out of the tree.

And the seven-point plot outline:

1). Introduce the main/viewpoint character
2). Present him with a problem.
3). In a particular setting.
4). The character tries to solve the problem...
5). And fails.
6). The character tries to solve the problem again...
7). And receives validation.



I'm pretty sure this is not what you intended by your post, but a question arises for me here. Which of these plot outlines do you recommend? I'm always wanting to improve my abilities within the Craft, and so this multi-point plot outline intrigues me.

[James D. Macdonald]

I intended the third, last, longest and most detailed plot outline; the one at miskatonic.org. Not because I think that paint-by-numbers, cookie-cutter storytelling is a good thing to aspire to, but rather for the same reason that one might do scales if one intends to become a concert pianist.

Consider it a wordgame.

Consider also doing the crossword in your daily newspaper every day. If your daily newspaper doesn't run a crossword, get a book of crossword puzzles.

[James D. Macdonald]

If you look around you can also find an 8-Point Plot Structure (http://www.jmarkbertrand.com/fictionblog.asp?p=2004_03_01_archive2.htm) (Stasis, Trigger, Quest, Surprise, Critical Choice,Climax, Reversal, Resolution), a Nine-point Plot Structure (http://www.dce.harvard.edu/extension/2006-07/courses/syllabi/10771/creae45.pdf), (apparently from Story: Substance, Structure, Style and The Principles of Screenwriting (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060391685/madhousemanor/) by Robert McKee (http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/TimeSpace/form.html)) and probably any number of other numbered plot structures.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

If you look around you can also find an 8-Point Plot Structure (http://www.jmarkbertrand.com/fictionblog.asp?p=2004_03_01_archive2.htm) (Stasis, Trigger, Quest, Surprise, Critical Choice,Climax, Reversal, Resolution), a Nine-point Plot Structure (http://www.dce.harvard.edu/extension/2006-07/courses/syllabi/10771/creae45.pdf), (apparently from Story: Substance, Structure, Style and The Principles of Screenwriting (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060391685/madhousemanor/) by Robert McKee (http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/TimeSpace/form.html)) and probably any number of other numbered plot structures.


Cool. Thanks for your help with this. I'll be sure to take a look at those later on.

But like you pointed out, cookie-cutter writing is not what you're wanting people to aspire to. Even so, this basic idea of plotting a story will definitely come in handy for me at a later time.

Thanks again.

:)

[aertep]

Hey, I took a look at my WIP (just began the third draft) and it's working within that 7-point outline! I'm pleased with myself for that, and with my MC for being such a good girl and screwing up in the right places.

As Ian says, we don't want cookie-cutter, but whether readers know it or not they want structure. Maybe "closure" is a better word. If things don't fall into place, it doesn't feel right. I read a book recently called "Le Divorce" by Diane Johnson. It's well-written. She knows how to turn a phrase, show not tell, etc. It was entertaining. Yet there was a plot about stolen property that never got solved, and to me it was extremely frustrating to come to the end of the book and not see the bad guys get their comeuppance.

(I don't care if bad guys sometimes don't get their comeuppance in the real world. That's nonfiction.)

[James D. Macdonald]

Meanwhile, in Russia: http://medlarcomfits.blogspot.com/2006/11/books-in-russia-true-story-by-friend.html

[MargueriteMing]

You're a Dialogue/Character Writer!


2889 other people got this result!
This quiz has been taken 125035 times.
24% of people had this result.

This is the result I got from this quiz: http://quizilla.com/users/edeainfj/quizzes/What%20kind%20of%20writer%20are%20you%3F

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 2889/125035 = 2.31%. The web page is obviously computationally-challenged. How accurate can its summary be when a simple percentage calculation is so far off? :ROFL:

[MargueriteMing]

Hints for writers:


You want characters? I got <a href="http://www.black-ink.org/fightcrime.htm" target="_new">characters</a>.


HAHA, I'll never lack for plot points again!

[James D. Macdonald]

To what should be no one's surprise:


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You're a Plot writer!

Take this quiz (http://quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=17&url=http://www.quizilla.com/users/edeainfj/quizzes/)!


Quizilla ( http://www.quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=18&url=http://www.quizilla.com/) | Join (http://www.quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=21&url=http://www.quizilla.com/register) | Make a Quiz (http://www.quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=21&url=http://www.quizilla.com/makeaquiz.php) | More Quizzes (http://www.quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=21&url=http://www.quizilla.com/users/edeainfj/quizzes/) | Grab Code (http://www.quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=42&url=http://www.quizilla.com/codepastes/)

[Allynegirl]

I intended the third, last, longest and most detailed plot outline; the one at miskatonic.org. Not because I think that paint-by-numbers, cookie-cutter storytelling is a good thing to aspire to, but rather for the same reason that one might do scales if one intends to become a concert pianist.

Consider it a wordgame.

Consider also doing the crossword in your daily newspaper every day. If your daily newspaper doesn't run a crossword, get a book of crossword puzzles.

Fun! :D So far. Got 1st 1500 words and 2nd 1500 words done in 1 day. A record for me! :hooray:

Now if only I can finish this story and work on my novel with the same interest and speed. :Shrug:

[bsolah]

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You're a Narrative writer!

Take this quiz (http://quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=17&url=http://www.quizilla.com/users/edeainfj/quizzes/)!


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[Sean D. Schaffer]

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You're a Plot writer!
Take this quiz (http://quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=17&url=http://www.quizilla.com/users/edeainfj/quizzes/)!

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[KimJo]

I'm a dialogue/character writer, but can't figure out how to copy the results over...

[kybudman]

It says (code won't copy into BB Code) I am a character/dialogue writer.

My work IS character driven, but plot-centric. I guess it's ok for a one dimensional test. Or, at least a yuck.

[kybudman]

Hey, UJ!

I was wondering how the book signings and radio gigs are going. What is an effective benchmark for success at events like this? Just wondering.

[Tienci]

Angst Writer here.

http://images.quizilla.com/E/edeainfj/1061498742_CWINDOWSDesktopangst.jpg

[picnichampa]

Hmmm. Can't answer questions 4 or 5 because I've never shown anything I've written to anyone else.
Guess this makes me a Paranoid Writer?

[mooncars]

regardless of whether you use roof top or rooftop) the publisher will give you a copy editor who will change it to house style.


LOLOLOLOLOL AaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggHHHhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! !!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!

Thanks a million. I needed a good hoot!

Sorry. I'm new and have been reading this thread since page 1. Back to the archives for me (I'm at page 67). Just had to break in, say Hi and let Uncle Jim know this was the finest bit of humor writing I've ever read.

Rick

http://images.quizilla.com/E/edeainfj/1061494473_pnarrative.jpg

[MargueriteMing]

Woot, I just read post 2000 in this thread, I'm over 1/3 of the way through!

[James D. Macdonald]

Hey, UJ!

I was wondering how the book signings and radio gigs are going. What is an effective benchmark for success at events like this? Just wondering.


The radio interview went pretty well; the host mentioned the title of the book several times. It's archived in streaming form here: http://www.nhpr.org/node/11869

The first signing went well; the bookstore had 24 copies and sold 12 of them. (We also got 40% off on anything in the store. Hoo hah, Christmas shopping!) Folks were coming by and chatting all evening.

The second signing didn't go so well. Of course it was also bucketing down rain, there was thunder and lightning, and 50-60 MPH wind gusts. If we didn't have to be there we wouldn't have gone either. The bookstore had 14 copies and two sold. On the plus side, we each got a $25 gift certificate to that bookstore. (Hoo hah! More Christmas shopping!)

We signed remaining stock at both places, where they're now out with Autographed stickers.

A benchmark for success is Anyone At All Shows Up.

[Ken Schneider]

I'm hoping that I can send my copy to NH for an autograph?

When I finish reading it, that is.

For the rest of the fish in this pond.

Get your copy of The Lands of Mists and Snow!

I've found it to be an excellent read, and I've learned something about writing in the process of reading the book.

[James D. Macdonald]

The nice lady from the radio station had one of the advanced reading copies of Mist and Snow. That had come from the publisher.

At the Book'em event (http://bookemfoundation.org/lebanon/), back in September, we sold a bunch of books (I didn't count), from the freebie author copies that publishers have sent us over the years. Eventually the revenue sharing brought back about thirty bucks.

It was interesting. At Book'em, even though there wasn't any assigned seating at the place (a school gym with tables arranged in a large horseshoe around the walls), the folks separated out naturally into the published authors, the publishers and bookstores, and the self-and-vanity-published authors.

I was amazed at how slick the self-published guys were in their presentations. Balloons with their titles imprinted on 'em, pens, bookmarks, stands, custom printed tablecloths.... I was impressed. Over on our side of the room we were just putting piles of books on the tables and sitting there with the little "Hi, My Name Is" stickers that the event organizers handed out on our shirts.

One of the self-published folks (who had driven there from Virginia -- that was something else: a lot of the self-published folks had come a long way) was handing out full-color flyers for her book, Take the Mystery Out of Promoting Your Book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1928662439/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/). The flyer tells us that her book is available in bookstores everywhere, and has a tear-off order form at the bottom to buy a copy from the author.

Anyway, that flyer also includes an inventory list for "A Booksigning In A Bag." Here's the list:

Tablecloth
Candies and dish
Flowers
Props
Scissors and tape
Pens -- booksigning and other
Mailing list
Book cover stickers
Business cards
Water/water bottle with screw-on cap
Change for parking meters
Emergency personal supplies/first aid kit
Book marks
Posters/flyers/advertisements
Loudspeaker announcements
Book stands
Blank card stock and marker
Presentation materials (projector, flip chart, etc.)
Lightweight table
Lightweight folding chair
Camera
Thank-you gift for store employee(s)

------------

I feel like such a slacker. Doyle and I had one pen between us at the first signing (until one of the visitors gave us another). We had to borrow new batteries for our camera (Doyle usually carries a camera in her purse). In the past we'd done the dish of candy thing, but forgot this time. I'd intended to build a nice model of a Civil War ship (perhaps USS Kearsarge) as a prop, but never got around to it. We did have change for parking meters (that usually rides in the car) but we didn't need it. My big EMT jump kit was in the car (but we didn't need it either, thankfully).

The bookstores provided the tables, chairs, water, book stands, and books. They had posters and signs (and flyers, too).

I'd taken it on myself to send press releases to the local newspapers a month before the signings, with a cover flat from the book included in each. Might help, couldn't hurt. I don't know if anything was ever printed.

Maybe next time I'll try to do better.

[Nangleator]

Presentation materials (projector, flip chart, etc.) !

That brings me back to my experiences at medical trade shows. The device manufacturers would have these cool, new devices for the doctors to play with. Some of these displays were set up as side-by-side games where the doctors would race each other to a kidney stone, to give an example. Very entertaining.

The drug companies, on the other hand, didn't have anything for the doctors to play with, (what can you do with a pill but swallow it and wait for a change?) but they had lots and lots of money to advertise with. You'd see all sorts of hand-waving stuff in their booths like espresso machines (with attractive women serving,) putting greens, D-list celebs signing authographs, magicians, and so on.

Of course, at the medical conferences, the different techniques were simply intrinsic to the realities of the products, and not a reflection on their quality.

Perhaps, UJ, you can affect to chew an ornate pipe and wince off into the distance thinking great thoughts. That would beat the pants off a slick presentation any day.

[Nangleator]

The interview was good, as those things go.

Typically I get the impression from author interviews that the interviewer and interviewee are speaking different, though similar-sounding languages. I didn't get that this time. She had some pointed follow-up questions. Sure, they took the form of "What do you mean by that?" but asking for clarification seems like an excellent strategy for an interviewer.

[zenofeller]

Eventually the revenue sharing brought back about thirty bucks.

right.

I was amazed at how slick the self-published guys were in their presentations. Balloons with their titles imprinted on 'em, pens, bookmarks, stands, custom printed tablecloths.... I was impressed. Over on our side of the room we were just putting piles of books on the tables and sitting there with the little "Hi, My Name Is" stickers that the event organizers handed out on our shirts.

Anyway, that flyer also includes an inventory list for "A Booksigning In A Bag." Here's the list:

Tablecloth
Candies and dish
Flowers
Props
Scissors and tape
Pens -- booksigning and other
Mailing list
Book cover stickers
Business cards
Water/water bottle with screw-on cap
Change for parking meters
Emergency personal supplies/first aid kit
Book marks
Posters/flyers/advertisements
Loudspeaker announcements
Book stands
Blank card stock and marker
Presentation materials (projector, flip chart, etc.)
Lightweight table
Lightweight folding chair
Camera
Thank-you gift for store employee(s)


so, on one hand, revenue share is 30 bucks. on the other, it's getting harder and harder to tell the difference between a group of writers and a freakshow, and between any individual writer and a snakeoil salesman/ronald mac donald/bozo the clown.

may i be so bold as to propose that the second is the very reason for the first ? maybe if people spent more time writing, and less time coloring baloons not only we'd all have books that are actually readable in the stores, but they'd make more than a mexican trucker ?

there's a good reason books sales are way way behind playstation sales. that reason isn't that books don't come with free complimentary coffee makers, hair driers and haircombs.


I feel like such a slacker.


basically, too many people fancy themselves writers, when they would really be better employed handing baloons, making coffee and writing laundry lists. maybe they should change then ?

Maybe next time I'll try to do better.

[Ken Schneider]

right. snip....too many people fancy themselves writers, when they would really be better employed handing baloons, making coffee and writing laundry lists. maybe they should change then ?


Agreed, most should, but don't. They instead pretend that they can, make up cheesy websites,and do all the things UJ mentioned. All signs of a greenhorn in the book world.

The purchase of all those gimmicks will never repay themselves in book sales. In truth, having a real publisher doesn't require you to buy trinkets for eticement. The publisher will buy the trinkets and gimmicks, and leave the writer to write books.

[pdr]

as one who has been to several book signings/meet the author-in-the- bookshop, to be a body for writer friends, that list makes sense.

Certainly some of the bookshops were well organised and had chairs, tables etc. Some publishers had even managed to get everything to the right place before the day, but it doesn't always happen. And in a large empty space, a bleak hall or big and busy bookshop where the author has been given a chair ina corner, having your own table, attractivly set up with a display, flowers/flowering plant and the author calmly reading, writing or signing books does impress.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm doing the Christmas Challenge myself. First page: http://mist-and-snow.livejournal.com/18656.html

[James D. Macdonald]

I've also been having way too much fun with the Official Seal Generator (http://www.says-it.com/seal/index.php):

[retterson]

One of the self-published folks (who had driven there from Virginia -- that was something else: a lot of the self-published folks had come a long way) was handing out full-color flyers for her book, Take the Mystery Out of Promoting Your Book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1928662439/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/). The flyer tells us that her book is available in bookstores everywhere, and has a tear-off order form at the bottom to buy a copy from the author.

{snipped}

I feel like such a slacker.

Ah! Don't feel like that! (I'm wagging my finger at ya!)

Folks who self-publish have an unquenchable vanity that requires them to call attention to themselves, and the form of the attention doesn't matter.

A skillfully-wielded pen (especially a pointy fountain pen) is mightier than any bunch of custom balloons . . .

[James D. Macdonald]

My pseud for tie-ins.

[Ken Schneider]

I'm doing the Christmas Challenge myself. First page: http://mist-and-snow.livejournal.com/18656.html


I'm working on mine.

Better not to show it, yet. I've learned that lesson.

[James D. Macdonald]

Woo! An interview with Doyle and me, including Doyle on "Constructing Villains":

http://www.andwerve.com/october06_featured_artist

[AnnaWhite]

I haven't posted here for a long time, although I've been lurking. The fact is, I haven't had time to scratch for the past few months. Since attending the Viable Paradise workshop last October (and what a blast that was!) I've started work on a new novel. I've only got as far as the first four chapters, so it's a slow journey...

I have a question that's been bugging me for the past few weeks.

One of the important elements in my plot involves a highly intelligent, part magical creature, that has a large feline body (like an enormous lion or panther) and who attaches herself to one of the main heroes. She does this for a purpose, which will be revealed eventually. She is not unique, but one of a race of like creatures, that live in a land far away from the world of humans.


I've been agonising on how to make this magical creature communicate with the human. Speech could look horribly corny, and anyway I want the communication to happen privately. I'd thought of a sign language, but it would be complicated and could look silly (tail weaving around like a semaphore? retractable fingers doing deaf sign language?). Another option could be to have the creature assume a human body for communication, but that might spark romantic implications with the hero (unless I make the creature male, which I'd rather not, or work it so that there clearly is no romance, or introduce a romantic side plot). The simplest option seems to be telepathy, but would that be considered cliché these days?

[Nangleator]

A variation on telepathy could involve the transmission of visual inputs. This sort of development could evolve with pack hunters, and could be adapted by intelligent creatures to pass theoretical (and not just recently perceived) visual impressions.

It would make your 'conversations' a bit tricky, but if you need lots of ideas transmitted, your magical creature could pass the impressions of printed words, a few at a time.

[James D. Macdonald]

How about telepathically creating the impression of a human body?

If you can answer the question "why must this character be a feline?" you might find the answer to "how can it communicate?"

[aertep]

If you can answer the question "why must this character be a feline?" you might find the answer to "how can it communicate?"

Wow. Sat and thought about that for a moment. Good answer.

Also, thanks for the link to the interview about villains. Made me go back and tweak (ouch!) my guy.

I lurk. Like Anna I'm writing, and selfish of my time. But it never hurts to take a moment to come here and learn something, or to say thanks again.

[Ken Schneider]

Claws, plus a dirt slate board make a wonderful medium.

Just imagine if your Lion type creature, when you figure out how you are going to communicate, did so in a manner that your MC had to figure out, and the reader was privy to? I.E., find a rosetta stone type item,at some point to understand what was being said.

If the reader knows what danger lurks, and the MC doesn't, it creates lots of tension in the story.

Just a little musing on my part.

Good luck.

[jamiehall]

Is there any fan fiction based on my own works? I don't know. I have quite deliberately never looked.

I've seen some based on the character Valerie Sherwood from the "Bad Blood" series, but I couldn't point it to you now, it was years back that I saw it. It wasn't labeled as fan fiction, but rather presented as an original author's work. The first chapter was basically the same as the first chapter of the actual book (who knows, perhaps it was even word for word) and the rest deviated. I read the fanfic before I read the actual book, and I remember thinking that it was some of the best fan fiction that I'd ever seen online, but I was disturbed to see a serious drop in quality and change in writing style after the first chapter, and I didn't read the whole thing. A couple years later, I read the first book in the "Bad Blood" series and I immediately recognized the first chapter, and figured out what had happened.

[edit: minor copyediting]

[Sara King]

I'm new to AbsoluteWrite.com and this is my first post ever, so I hope there's no hard feelings for barging right in. Anna, I saw your question and I wondered two things. First, does the feline HAVE to communicate with the protag? Maybe that's a source of tension, something she's trying to fix. The second was whether or not maybe she could speak through an intermediary, every once in awhile, like maybe through a forest deity or wood sprite or something. Something finicky and not always available, leaving her incapable of communicating everything she thinks all the time. It could make for a lot of stress on her part, especially if she knows something that the protag doesn't, but can't express herself to him.

I'm really impressed with this site. Lots of good advice here.

-Sara King

[AnnaWhite]

Thanks heaps all you guys! Great ideas!

I like the one about visual communication; I'm just now reading a book that has a wolf shape-shifter doing just that (Wi'tch by J Clemens). I'd have to tweak it, though, to make it original.

The claw scratching is a neat idea. I hadn't thought of it, have never read a novel with anything like it, and I can see it could open up all sorts of great possibilities.

Having an intermediary could work really well. It could mean another interesting character, and all sorts of new plot possibilities.

I love the idea of telepathically creating the impression of a human body. I can see it, and its eyes changing as it sends me the image of itself in human form...

I'll follow your advice, Jim, and meditate on its feline nature. I do have one practical answer to the question "why must this character be a feline?" It’s because of something it must do, which will be visually beautiful and dramatic if it has a feline body. Any other body would totally lose the effect. I guess that needs to be my starting point, and from there I need to feel into its feline nature.

Maybe I should call it a being rather than a creature.

[batgirl]

Hi Sara! Welcome to AW, and what a great way to start, with useful advice.

Lucia, I've been using body-language for my intelligent-animal character, but so far he's mostly transmitting emotions and desires, not hard information (for example, 'I want you to go in this direction right now' but not the reasons). Maybe consider how a cat or dog communicates here?
I have a speech-related question, too. Is there a way to convey slow halting speech that doesn't involve sprinkling ellipses like glitter throughout the dialogue?
-Barbara

[Dru]

batgirl:

You. Could. Use. Periods.

or mention that that character speaks in slow-halting words the first couple times until the reader associates that type of speech with the character?

Seems like dialect speech, how would you convey that in your piece?

I've always associated ellipses with more drawn-out speech or uncertainty.

Or break up the speech with small actions that illustrate that the person pauses a bunch or is slow to speak (have other people interrupt or talk over them?)

[retterson]

Batgirl -- em dashes convey -- a kind of -- Kirkian dialect. Better than -- what do you call them -- ellipses.

Of course, you could always use the dreaded adverb.

"You can't do that," she said haltingly/carefully/picking her words with care. (Which would work for people who actually like to -- yanno -- read words. But Stephen King and his acolytes would string you up and dance around you brandishing copies of Strunk and White.)

I suppose (at the end of the day*), it's all about what you're trying to convey. A brief description of how your character talks might work better than trying to replicate its cadence with punctuation.

*I don't care if Stephen King is of the option that I ought to be forced to stand in a corner for using that phrase. I like it. It's far better than "the bottom line is."

[Sara King]

Slow, halting speech... You could try using grammar inconsistencies, as in someone who doesn't speak English (or whatever language it is) very well. Like, "Dog go up street. No like what find. Find big dog, MUCH big dog. Big dog take bone. Make little dog scare." Speckle some pauses in there, plus an occasional dash, hesitation, body language conveying insecurity and lack of confidence. If the halting speech is a consistent thing, like the character doesn't know the language or has trouble communicating, I think word choice and the way your character holds him or herself while he/she talks (or doesn't talk) is more important than the punctuation. Besides, over-using ellipses or dashes throughout the book will make a reader's eyes glaze over whenever they get to that character's part. Much more interesting to show their flaw through their own insecurities and frustrations, as they try and fail to make themselves understood.

-Sara King

[AnnaWhite]

Maybe the words could be interspersed with any kind of sound he/she/it makes while pausing? That is, if he/she/it does make a sound. For example, "The h'm dog err he went up the h'm street ha and didn't err like what he found."

[bsolah]

Maybe by body language? Your character could try to guess what it's trying to say by reading it's facial expressions etc. It could allow for a little room for error and it isn't as far fetched.

[FennelGiraffe]

Slow, halting speech? I think any device for showing it is going to get really annoying, really fast. It falls into the same category as dialect. It needs a delicate touch.

I suggest a combination of:
1) Tell us the speech is halting. Show that char's frustration. Show other chars' patience or lack thereof.
2) Keep all of that char's dialog to short, simple sentences, using short, simple words.
3) Very, very occasionally, show it. I like the idea of ellipses as punctuation, also breaking a sentence in the middle. Did I mention to do this only occasionally? Probably the first time the char speaks and not more than once per chapter thereafter. And not more than one break in any one speech.

[anodyne]

Or, telepathy that the reader is aware of and the character isn't. Thoughts that pop up with clues to the reader that they're from mrs. kitty, while the protagonist is unaware of it.

That way, when the protagonist figures it out, the reader can go, AHA! I knew it.

Like random cravings for fish. Or an intense sense of foreboding about going down a specific path in the dark and scary forest.

[Chris Grey]

Remember the chapter "The Vanishing Glass" in the first Harry Potter book? Harry talked to a snake and the snake talked to Harry.

This was all well and normal to Harry, from Harry's POV, until the second book when someone explain what it meant that he could do so. Or how it looks to anyone other than the main character. You could just treat it as a given until you need to explain it.

It's not just "why must this character be feline?" It's "Why the main character?" What sets him apart from the rest of the human race in that the feline character must communicate with him (and him alone?) instead of the pizza guy?

[blacbird]

Dunno. I often have trouble communicating with the pizza guy.

caw

[batgirl]

Thanks guys! Much to consider now.
Fennel, you've put your finger on the problem, that any trick will get old with astounding swiftness. And I loathe dialect-by-misspelling - it's way more fun to do it by sentence structure.
I guess the key thing is to establish right off the bat that it's slow, and after that keep to short simple sentences, and show the character (and listeners) impatient and frustrated by the difficulty.
-Barbara

[AnnaWhite]

Maybe have the listener finish the sentences for the slow halting speaker? Or he keeps interrupting and guessing what snaily is saying? And slowpoke gets frustrated because it's not what he was actually trying to say. I can imagine that's what might happen in real life.

[James D. Macdonald]

My latest Eos/blog post (http://outofthiseos.typepad.com/blog/2006/12/where_do_you_ge.html) is up, and it has more of a discussion on the secret origins of Land of Mist and Snow. A bit of How I Dun It. It's about Civil War songs.

Oh, and I've finished the Christmas Assignment (first draft), over on our LiveJournal (http://mist-and-snow.livejournal.com/). It's friendlocked, but I make friends easily. Doyle will do her magic on it next.

If it ever gets published, y'all can compare the first draft to the finished piece.

[lfraser]

Hello, everyone. I'm new to these forums, and have spent the past three evenings reading through this thread.

I confess I gave up at about page 45; not because it wasn't worth reading, but because I've picked up two very important pieces of advice about writing and am eager to put them into practice:

1. Butt in chair for two hours every day (and this time does not include reading posts about writing, no matter how informative they may be).

2. A story begins when the protagonist walks through that one way door (thereby resolving the biggest problem I've had with my short story writing).

I've come late to the party, but I do want to thank you all for sharing your wisdom and experience. A special thanks to UJ for being so generous with his time and expertise!

[James D. Macdonald]

Welcome, lfraser -- I'm glad you're finding it informative. Please let us know how it all goes.

[lfraser]

I'm been putting in my two hour BIC session.

As to how it goes -- well, you DID give us permission to write crap, as long as we're writing. :D I do have to remind myself of that advice every time I'm tempted to throw my laptop against the wall.

[allenparker]

I'm been putting in my two hour BIC session.

As to how it goes -- well, you DID give us permission to write crap, as long as we're writing. :D I do have to remind myself of that advice every time I'm tempted to throw my laptop against the wall.

LF, I just unhook the crap-o-meter and take the batteries out of my smellevision camera. It usually takes a few minutes after BIC time before the air fresheners clear the room. I take that time to get a drink and a hot shower.

Jim, I noticed your son was coming in for Christmas, Hurray.


awp

[James D. Macdonald]

For folks interested in an agent's perspective on what to do if a manuscript has been making the rounds for a while with no nibbles, check out "Giving up on it" in Rachel Vater's LJ (http://raleva31.livejournal.com/27462.html).

(Rachel is an agent at Lowenstein-Yost Associates.)

My advice is this: By the time you know that a particular book isn't getting any nibbles, you should have a new book ready to make the rounds. So start sending the new book around and begin work on your next.

[Ken Schneider]

Hi lfraser!

Yes, write badly, fix later but write none the less.

I consider myself a writer whether I sell a novel of mine or not.

Selling a work makes you published.

Writing sets you free on an adventure. Always take that trip.

Good luck.



Oh, for everyone a question

Did you know being blind was a sport?

I have a gentleman who works for me part time who is blind, born that way. He gave me an awesome line that I inserted in my current wip for a character that is blind, ( but sees in another way.)

Here's the line.

"Being blind is a contact sport." I thought that was an awesome line, and evoked the imagery of a blind person running into walls, poles etc.

[Sara King]

I just recently figured out that writing a novel is as much about writing a good antagonist as it is about writing a good protagonist. Only took me 24 years to get to that point, yikes.

Anyway, say my antagonist is a really sympathetic character. People who read him love him. He almost overshadows my protag he is so cool (almost, but doesn't). Protag and antag have opposite goals, so they're not both protags.

Here's where things get complicated: I'm not killing the antagonist at the end of this book. The protagonist ends up totally annihilating everything the antagonist holds holy, and rightly so, but the book leaves the antag alive and drifting in the end. This somehow doesn't cut it for me, especially since the antag had worthy goals. (He was trying to free his people. Granted, he blew up a planet and started a brutal civil war to do it, but in the end, he was trying to save his species.) All the other POV characters are receiving some sort of closure. It seems wrong to leave the antagonist without the same treatment. He had worthy goals, even if he went about attaining them the wrong way, and damn it, he was a hell of a fun guy to read.

So my question is this: Does the antagonist need to have closure at the end of the book if he's going to be a recurring character in the series? (He reappears in Book 4, though as a protag, not an antag.) Especially if he had worthy goals? I feel like the readers will feel pissed off when they find out what happens to him in the end (protagonist destroys his race for good).

A note: I'm not worried about protag/antag identity conflicts. I know it sounds bad here, but a reader can totally understand why both my protagonist and antagonist do what they do, and it is clear who the bad guy is. I'm looking more for advice on how to deal with closure for an antagonist that everybody likes, and if it's even necessary.

Any ideas on this would be awesome. Thanks :)

-Sara King

[James D. Macdonald]

Beats the heck out of me. I haven't read your book.

This may well be in the put-it-in-the-desk-drawer-for-six-months-then-reread area. Or it may be in the "What do the betas say?" area.

Is there some reason that you can't just leave your antagonist drifting in a lifeboat/working at Burger King under an assumed name/returning to his Fortress of Silence to work on his plans?

[Ken Schneider]

I have to agree with Jim. If we look back at any serial story, Superman, Batman, etc, we see the constant battle between good and evil, episode by episode.

Sounds like a good place to end a book.

"I'll be back."

[jamiehall]

I usually see antagonists not given much closure at the end of a book (except when the antagonist is killed, which you are not doing). I don't see it as a problem, and, in fact, it can easily lead to sequels.

[James D. Macdonald]

Y'know, if he's the last of his species, he's going to have a very hard time finding a date for Friday night....

[Sailor Kenshin]

Y'know, if he's the last of his species, he's going to have a very hard time finding a date for Friday night....

Unless he's not at all particular.

[smiley10000]

I did it. I read through undiluted then all the posts that came after that...It only took me forever. ;)

But now I'm caught up and busy working on the new assignment.
It should help me as my newly completed WIP made me realise I can't write action scenes... Is there any advice on how to improve on this?

Thanks for all your amazing guidance...
:)10000

[Sara King]

Thanks for the responses!

I'm hearing several votes for no closure.

The antag isn't drifting at the end. Bad choice of words on my part. His power is his brain, and he's just as powerful at the end of the book as he was in the beginning, where he's convinced to start the war in order to free his people. He has the opportunity to kill the protag after protag kills off his race, but doesn't. So antag is left with zip at the end... His people are dead and he's given up vengeance.

I don't really want to leave a cliffhanger (is the antag going to rise again??) because he's not. And I can't kill him because I've already written another book with him in it as a protag later on this timeline.

I just feel like this guy deserves more, after everything that's happened to him.

Anyway, sorry for posting this question. I know you can't make a good decision with the information given. Thanks for all the help! :)

And yeah, he has trouble getting a date ;)

-Sara King

[James D. Macdonald]

Some seriously brilliant writing advice.

Unfortunately it's a PDF, but it's worth it.

http://homepage.mac.com/noteon/Sites/Snyder_on_writing.pdf

[AllyWoof]

Uh. That stare at a blank screan think won't work for me. I am epilepstic. If I were to stare for a blank anything for two hours on end, it would most likely lead to a bad siezure. Same goes for a set time. I have doctors appointments, and lots of them these days. I do, however, try to write as often as possible. Oh! And as for radios and tv and stuff, the "break" isnt a destraction for me. In fact, I find getting up periodically and changing the channel/station actually helps me. That's just me, though.

[Ken Schneider]

Some seriously brilliant writing advice.

Unfortunately it's a PDF, but it's worth it.

http://homepage.mac.com/noteon/Sites/Snyder_on_writing.pdf


Yep, excellent.

[James D. Macdonald]

Whatever works for you, Writerdog.

Me, I'll turn off the monitor sometimes and type blind. That way I don't get distracted by the words on the screen.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Uh. That stare at a blank screan think won't work for me. I am epilepstic. If I were to stare for a blank anything for two hours on end, it would most likely lead to a bad siezure. Same goes for a set time. I have doctors appointments, and lots of them these days. I do, however, try to write as often as possible. Oh! And as for radios and tv and stuff, the "break" isnt a destraction for me. In fact, I find getting up periodically and changing the channel/station actually helps me. That's just me, though.


May I make a suggestion?

If you're worried about a seizure, which is a serious fear these days where a computer screen is concerned, perhaps you could do the creative portions of your writing either on a typewriter or longhand. Since a typewriter generally does not have a screen (I know some have tiny screens the size of a calculator screen for certain word-processing-like functions) and neither does writing on a piece of paper with a pen or pencil, this might help alleviate some of your fears (which I understand to be quite justified based on recent news reports).

Also, I would think that whether you set a particular time of the day to do BIC or not, is not the issue. Rather, the issue would be that you do BIC at all.


I wish you all the best, Writerdog, with your writing.
:)

[AllyWoof]

I am trying.

[James D. Macdonald]

Some seriously brilliant writing advice.


And here it is in HTML:

http://journalscape.com/keithsnyder/2006-12-19-12:05/

[anodyne]

The sane world thanks you!

:loathes .pdfs:

[Brickie]

*waves*

Someone on the NaNoWriMo forums pointed me in the direction of this truly epic thread, so I'm currently working my way through it. It's practically novel-length in its own right, isn't it?

[James D. Macdonald]

It's well-over novel length. Just my own contributions come to over a thousand pages in standard manucript format.

[Brickie]

Gosh.

Is there a sort of collated version of your "lessons" anywhere? Might help me cut to the meat of the discussion through the odd diversions into holy grammar wards and such like.

[James D. Macdonald]

Yes: See Uncle Jim, undiluted (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7987).

Be advised, though, that there's an awful lot of meat in the other posts, and some of my comments are pretty meaningless out of context.

[Brickie]

Sure, but it might mean that I could find something I'm interested in and zero in on it in the main thread

[Sailor Kenshin]

The sane world thanks you!

:loathes .pdfs:

Hai! :eek:

[BardSkye]

Has your publisher, (or other publishers) ever indicated they might want to release "Writing with Uncle Jim"?

And on another note: I went to my favourite bookstore this morning with the express purpose of ordering a copy of Land of Mist and Snow. Didn't need to, they finally had it in stock!

I'm about 50 pages in but have to stop and actually work now.

[Akuma]

Has your publisher, (or other publishers) ever indicated they might want to release "Writing with Uncle Jim"?



I second this idea.

[ebrillblaiddes]

I second this idea. Heck, if it doesn't get picked up by a publisher, he could Lulu it...I'm sure enough people here would put in an order for it to be worthwhile.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

And on another note: I went to my favourite bookstore this morning with the express purpose of ordering a copy of Land of Mist and Snow. Didn't need to, they finally had it in stock!Heh. Of the two bookstores that I've gone into in the past couple'a days -- buying books, you know, the sort of thing that certain parties claim doesn't happen there anymore -- _Land_of_Mist_and_Snow_ was 1) on the New in Paperback table at the front of the store, and 2) Eye level on the an end-cap facing the main aisle in the Science-Fiction and Fantasy section.

[Ken Schneider]

I second this idea.

Now if you could get the other ten thousand posters to consent to using their contributions.... We talked about this before.

Already read Land of Mist and Snow. Pre-ordered way back in Sept.

Very good Epistolary novel.

Haven't seen the book, LMAS, on the shelf here, yet, but I'm in the mid-west.

[Akuma]

Now if you could get the other ten thousand posters to consent to using their contributions.... We talked about this before.





I mean, yeah, the task would be tedious and large, but I like to think most posters would give permission for their contributions, as long as they get credit.

Idealistic? More than likely. Still, it's nice to think about...

[BrendaK]

I don't have to go to work tomorrow! And then I'm off for a week!!!!!

UJ--"Just my own contributions come to over a thousand pages in standard manucript format." Now, where have I heard that? Oh, yeah. It's a thousand pages, give or take a few. I'll be writing more in a week or two. Live long and write.

Sara King--Maybe you have, not an antagonist, but an antihero?

Anna White and Ken Schneider--Scratching in the dirt sounds useful for communication. Anna, by the way--does the alphabet in your world have to look like the Western alphabet? An alphabet with lots of straight vertical strokes would be easier to produce with claws. Or, think Roman numerals. Or, at the most basic--a 5 made with 4 verticals and 1 horizontal slash. An animal could produce 4 verticals by chance, but the slash is a deliberate addition.

YMMV.

[BardSkye]

I mean, yeah, the task would be tedious and large, but I like to think most posters would give permission for their contributions, as long as they get credit.

Idealistic? More than likely. Still, it's nice to think about...

I wasn't thinking of just copying the thread. Just Uncle Jim's posts by themselves make up a book without the replies to specific people or off-topic asides.

I know I've certainly learned more from this thread than from any other source, bar none.

[bsolah]

I don't have to go to work tomorrow! And then I'm off for a week!!!!!

Same here. I go back on the 2nd, though, but gee it'll be good to wake up on Monday knowing I don't have to spend 8 hours wasting my time. Won't have time for writing, though. I'm camping with mates, so will just let all my ideas fester until I'm about to explode when I get home.

[James D. Macdonald]

For reasons that seemed good to me, I just added the rest of the Mageworlds books and the Crossman short stories to the AW Library: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40178

[PeeDee]

I just bought a lovely hardcover copy of The Stars Asunder from the used bookstore I work in. I haven't read it yet, but it's next after The best Fantasy & Horror 2006. Honest.

[lfraser]

Writing sets you free on an adventure. Always take that trip.

Thanks for that.

I've been getting my knickers in a twist for months being a perfectionist and getting nowhere. The net result is that I've virtually stopped writing for the past few weeks because it wasn't enjoyable any longer. There's been altogether too much editing and not enough flow. I forgot why I started this in the first place -- which was to have fun, and send myself off on an adventure or two.

I'll be without my computer for a few days over Christmas, but I'm taking a notebook and a supply of pens with me.

[James D. Macdonald]

Happy/Jolly/Season's/Merry
Christmas/Holidays/Greetings

[aertep]

Right back at ya, Jim.

I don't comment a lot because my B is I my C, many thanks to you (and because I don't have that much to add). But I love love love this thread, along with you and everyone on it. Thanks, and bless you all and all the traditions you celebrate.

[Nangleator]

Woo hoo! Guess what book I got for Christmas.

Hint: It's got mammatus clouds on the cover.

[James D. Macdonald]

Today's the day to send your Christmas Challenge Story out to a paying market. On your mark, get set, SASE!

[James D. Macdonald]

And today's surprise news: got royalties on the reprint of "Stealing God" that appeared in My Favorite Fantasy Story (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/1596870559/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/). (Also available as an ebook (http://www.diesel-ebooks.com/cgi-bin/item/parent-0742091406/My-Favorite-Fantasy-Story.html).) That means the silly thing's earned out. (This story is another of the Gift That Keeps On Giving stories. Reprinted several times, inspiration for two other stories and a novel, and earning royalties right the way along.)

Only $15.82, but when you consider it's a pro-rata share of 1/2 of the royalties from the period when it earned out ... well, it's $15.82 that I didn't have yesterday.

[Ken Schneider]

Sent my Christmas challenge story out, just like last year, we'll see what happens.

That royalty check on earn out was a final check of many others, I would guess, and as good as my best PA check.

Thought. You received the check on the merit of a writing, where as I received mine on the efforts of my work selling.

Happy holidays, all.

[James D. Macdonald]

Please notice that it took six years for that anthology to earn out. Between 2000 and 2006 all the money we saw on that sale was the advance. (That was the second of three (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0446601381/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) times (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0765340038/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) we'd sold that story though, so it's okay, and no one expects to make a lot of money on short stories.)

[aertep]

Ken and Jim: working on volume sales, the both of youse.

[Ken Schneider]

Ken and Jim: working on volume sales, the both of youse.

I'm just hoping to sell another short story, or my most recent novel that's making the rounds.

I'm in year four of the ten year plan, I'm not giving up any time soon.

[aertep]

Volume in years, effort, sweat...luck...

[allenparker]

Do you like to work with anthologies? And what is your criteria for participation in such an endeavor? thankx

awp

[James D. Macdonald]

So far all of our short-fiction sales have been to anthologies, so I guess yeah, we like doing 'em.

The criteria? A well-known editor, and a publishing deal with a known decent publisher. Plus the advance, of course. Look for $0.05/word and up, paid on acceptance.

Stories in anthologies don't get the award recommendations that stories in the magazines get, but ... they can stay in print for years (decades, really), and keep on earning. A reprint from an anthology and a reprint from a magazine are still both reprints.

Think of anthologies as single-issue magazines that stay in print for more than a month.

[Monty]

Have read alot of Terry Brooks and Anre Norton Etc. Fanasty series novels that seem to have a rommance side. The best example I can thing of is Lord of the Rings. Aragon is a romatic character and adventure character roled into one. In my currect book I am working on the Boys in the book the main characters are pre teen to teenage could I use a puppy love type romance to involve the reader deeper with the characters emotions in my book?

If so please explain how in some examples please. thanks monty.

Hope I am still with in the subject matter of said thread.



Okay, and after that pompous lead off, let me say that I'm not going to be talking about novels at all. I'm going to be talking about romances.

Not romances in the Fabio-on-the-cover paperbacks, not the Romance section at Borders, not Harlequin (though there'll be things useful in that genre). Not category romance, or genre romance.

I'm talking about romance in literary theory.

A novel is: A book length work of realistic prose fiction.

A romance is: A book length prose narrative treating imaginary characters involved in events remote in time or place and usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious.

The thing that the two have in common are that they're book length (call it 50,000 words and up), prose (that is, not poetry or drama), and fiction (some people have said that fiction is when the author tells his own lies; non-fiction is when he tells someone else's lies).

The realism issue, then, is the core of the difference between a novel and a romance. The "realistic" books are the mainest of mainstream; they are the literary works.

The vast majority of the things you find in bookstores labeled "novels" are actually romances. That means:


1) imaginary characters

2) events remote in time or place

3) usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious

More on all of this later.

I'll try to drop by to talk more after I finish my work every day (except when I'm out of town).

[James D. Macdonald]

...could I use a puppy love type romance to involve the reader deeper with the characters emotions in my book?

Yes, you could.

If so please explain how in some examples please.

No, I can't.

This isn't something that I can do in a sentence, or a paragraph, or even a chapter. It's organic to the whole.

Here's what you can do ... take some of your favorite books that have the sort of romance you're looking for, and re-read them specifically to see how and where the author included the romance in the whole narrative.

Then write your book. If romance develops between the characters, you can strenthen it and refine it in the second draft.

[Ken Schneider]

Land of mists and snow, an historic fantasy written in an (epistolary) < learned that from UJ, form, had a nice romantic twist to it.

I can't think of anything I've ever read that wasn't tied to another genre, whether it be romance, or take your pick.

Let's take for example any James Bond book, or film.

What elements do one of these stories have encompassing the whole, which we know is mainly spy based?

Plenty of sex- Has nothing to do with being a British spy per-say.

Carry on if you want.

[aertep]

There's a bit of love in "The Name of the Rose" when the young monk falls for a peasant girl. There's romance in "Le Divorce," when the main character has an affair with an older man. Neither of these is a genre romance. Characters fall in love all the time.

I think it's when the romance is the plot that you have whatchya call a genre romance, as opposed to the type of romance Uncle Jim speaks of (imaginary characters, events remote in time or place, and usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious).

Isn't there usually a love interest in a Ludlum novel, too? Yet those are hardly genre romances.

Examples abound. Love is in the air.

[James D. Macdonald]

I've been spending the day updating and correcting my list of Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Bookstores (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/bookstor.htm). Still not done, but at least the dead links have been cleaned up.

My next convention will be Arisia, in Boston (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/bookstor.htm), January 10-12. Here's my schedule:

Friday, 7:00 PM Reshaping Grimm & Goose
Saturday, 11:00 AM Playing in Someone Else's Sandbox
Saturday, 12:00 noon Magic and Christianity
Saturday, 3:00 PM Reading
Sunday, 12:00 noon Pen Names: When and Why?

[J.S Greer]

I've been spending the day updating and correcting my list of Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Bookstores (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/bookstor.htm). Still not done, but at least the dead links have been cleaned up.


That is right up my alley!

Any way this could be a sticky topic?

[fjeastman]

I think Uncle Jim has said before that he doesn't want the topic stickied or pointlessly bumped because if the conversation has died to the point that it isn't visible on its own merits, it should sink.

IIRC.

--fje

[James D. Macdonald]

That's my attitude. If the topic has worth, it'll stay on the first page. If it doesn't -- people who are interested can still search while other, more interesting, topics move to the head of the line.

[James D. Macdonald]

Speaking of which... I posted this in another thread today, and lest it sink and be lost I repost it here:

Write the best first draft you can, but if, while you're writing it, you look at it and say "This is crap," keep writing anyway.

If it helps: print out and frame this certificate (http://www.sff.net/people/yog/permission.pdf). Hang it above your desk.

[moth]

I once saw you say "I give you permission to write badly." in another thread a bunch of months ago, and though it wasn't my thread, it helped me a lot. This sounds so cheesy but it was like you had said it just for me. It's made a difference for me, so thank you.

[aertep]

I printed the permission (from the other thread) and it's now on my wall. I especially like the seal.

Writing badly got me through my first draft, turning my WIP into the beginnings of an actual book. There are those who say it's not okay to write badly. Maybe it's not okay for them, but it's okay for me. It gives me something to edit, and I'm a damned good editor.

[James D. Macdonald]

You can't make a vase if you don't have the clay on your wheel.

[PeeDee]

You can't make a vase if you don't have the clay on your wheel.

I've always thought it also helps if you're willing to wind up with a lumpy ash tray as well. If there's less pressure to produce something great, then I think one is more apt to produce something.

[Brickie]

I've done NaNoWriMo the last couple of years - my first attempts at writing any sort of fiction since writing stories in Primary School.

That was the thing that I really got out of doing that - when you've set yourself a target of 50,000 words in a month (1,667 a day) and told everyone you know about said target, you can't worry too much about quality. You bang it out and fix it later.

So now I've got a big word document, about 100,000 words long. Time to start with the editing... :-o

[aertep]

Maybe it has to do with the way one is brought up. I was taught that one should not do something if one didn't do it well. So I didn't play softball--even though I loved the game and all the other kids were having fun--because I was a klutz. I stopped drawing, even though I had pictures in my mind, because my pictures weren't perfect. I only did things I was good at, so I could win accolades and please my parents and teachers.

But this never allows you to be a beginner, or to explore smething, and you're always working only to win accolades and please others. You're never doing the work because you love it, or to please yourself, or because it fulfills you, and pretty soon your life is dedicated to a purpose that isn't your own.

So I'm re-teaching myself, and writing badly frees me to be an artist. It's also allowing me to become good at it. I've even gotten some accolades. But they're not as important to me now as the fulfilmment.

[vrabinec]

I've done NaNoWriMo the last couple of years - my first attempts at writing any sort of fiction since writing stories in Primary School.

That was the thing that I really got out of doing that - when you've set yourself a target of 50,000 words in a month (1,667 a day) and told everyone you know about said target, you can't worry too much about quality. You bang it out and fix it later.

So now I've got a big word document, about 100,000 words long. Time to start with the editing... :-o

I tried the NaNoWriMo thing, but only got out 20,000. Still, it helped get me rolling on a work I'd put aside for almost a year in favor of blogging and other not-for-pay writing. Good luck with yours.

[Ken Schneider]

Definition of, "Write badly, but write."

Practice makes perfect.

If we want to draw those lovely pictures we learn how and practice what we learn.

If we want to better golfers we practice hitting balls and playing.

Should we want to be better metal detectorists, another of my hobbies, we learn how our machine works, what the sounds mean, and learn from others so that we can better enjoy what we do.

If you want it bad enough, go get it.

Just like your momma said, and we've seen over the last seven years, anyone can be president.

[lfraser]

I will print out the Permission and post it forthwith.

There are times when the only way I can keep myself writing is when I allow myself to just write however I can, no matter what comes out. Suprisingly, when I later read what I've written, it's often far better than I thought it was while I was sweating through the writing. It seems to be more distilled, more purposeful and less purple, than the "good day" writing that happens when I think I'm really on my game.

It occurs to me that the most intruiguing ideas - often ideas that become central to the story -- come most often when I'm slogging and struggling through a day where my only goal is to write something, and never mind the aesthetics. I might only write one page, but a lot of the time that's the page that turns the corner for the piece I'm working on.

I suppose that shouldn't suprise me, really. All of my professional (non-fiction) writing has been done at the snail's pace of one to two pages a day at most. I guess that's just the way I write.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

I feel like I've gone all the way around "permission to write badly" and back again to where I started.

5-year NaNoWriMo vet, here. Sh1tty rough draft, check. Only of late I've found myself stuck trying to rewrite things--I start getting overwhelmed by the amount of crap-i-tude that the rough draft embodies. And then I've started having a hard time with first drafts, because I'm already envisioning the hell that is getting immovably stuck on the edit.

It ain't fun!

Tomorrow I pledge a fresh round of attempting to finish-edit-redit-submit, but does anyone have any advice on this particular permutation of frozen perfectionism?

[retterson]

The only thing that works for me:
1. Print it out with plenty of white space for editting.
2. Read through it entirely one time (resist urge to go back to the keyboard).
3. Make small edits on the page.
4. For things that need a wholesale rewrite, I mark the section and make notes (I don't have the patience to long-hand long sections).
5. Then head back and do the edits on the computer (and do whatever tweaks happen as you go). Note: this method actually ends up giving you two edits for the price of one.
6. Print it out with plenty of white space for editting . . .

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

For me, I need to read the entirety of the story once through to give myself that Big Picture from which I can then go back and smooth things out. Tweak characters, scenes, etc.

The Big Picture may change a few times as the story takes over, but I find that the comfort of having the whole thing in my hands in front of me helps a lot.

Maybe it's the sense of having something physical that's mine and needs help that provides the motivation to overcome the inactivation inertia. Dunno.

That's how I do it. Not saying it's a method that even works for me.

[blacbird]

Definition of, "Write badly, but write."

Practice makes perfect.

This is soooo true. I've become really good at bad writing. I write more badly now than I ever could have when I started.

caw

[Bartholomew]

This is soooo true. I've become really good at bad writing. I write more badly now than I ever could have when I started.

caw

huk huk huk.

[James D. Macdonald]

Nicole -- read your printout, out loud, marking in the margin the places that you'll have to come back and fix.

And/or:

Write a flowchart from your cruddy draft. See the overall shape.

You will need to get the entire work into your mind.

Also -- have you aged 'em in your desk drawer yet?

[batgirl]

Nicole, I don't know if this would work for you or not, but what I did once previously was to jump through the manuscript, either skimming or just pushing the side-bar-thingy down and stopping randomly, then micro-fixing a page or a few paragraphs so they didn't make me twitch or cringe. After I'd done 1/3-1/2 of the doc that way, I read through and revised the whole thing. What helped me was that I knew I'd be hitting decent prose soon, like plums of goodness in an evil pudding, so it was easier to work in long stretches.
But I'm a tweaking reviser, not a wholesaler. If something major is off, I cut the whole section out and start over. So it depends how you work.
-Barbara

[aertep]

Nicole,

Do you work with an outline? If not, you might try writing an outline based on your draft.

Then edit, using the suggestions everyone's given you, and cut out all the stuff you don't like. Use the outline as a skeleton for your new draft: plug into it the stuff you're keeping, and let it remind you where to rewrite things you need to replace.

[bsolah]

5. Then head back and do the edits on the computer (and do whatever tweaks happen as you go). Note: this method actually ends up giving you two edits for the price of one.

This happens to me too. Pity my printer's broken, so I'm stuck for editing for the moment. I could do on screen edits, but they're painful and less productive.

I may well try the reading aloud thing.

[Lynn Sholes]

I revise and revise. With a co-writer it means more eyes on the draft, but it also means twice the revision because we each see it again over and over. Even at the end, when the deadline is in my face, I know it is never as good as it could be.
Who was it that said it takes a million words to get all the crap out?

[Ken Schneider]

This is soooo true. I've become really good at bad writing. I write more badly now than I ever could have when I started.

caw

You're so bad.
Welcome, Lynn.

[aertep]

I may well try the reading aloud thing.

You must! It's the best, a way to find things you'd never find otherwise. A great tool.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Thanks, everyone. The one suggestion out of all this stellar advice that's ringing most true to me right now is to write with an outline/flowchart. I've never before really needed outlines to complete a first draft of a story, but I can remember times when in very specific cases coming up with a storytelling structure got me moving again--turned it from the impossible task of creating clay from void into a more pleasing and plausible fill-in-the-blank.

I think I'm going to turn to structural devices as a regular process, rather than a special case fix, at least for now. Someone said "Get the big picture"--I think I've been losing sight of the big picture lately and just getting stuck in "how am I going to get this scene out of my head and onto the paper?" or "how the heck am I going to fix this stupid paragraph?"

To Try Tomorrow...

[J.S Greer]

That's my attitude. If the topic has worth, it'll stay on the first page. If it doesn't -- people who are interested can still search while other, more interesting, topics move to the head of the line.

Fair enough.

[James D. Macdonald]

The goal isn't to write badly -- the goal is to ignore the saboteur in the back of your head that's trying to stop you by saying "This is lousy! Give up!"

[aertep]

Thanks, everyone. The one suggestion out of all this stellar advice that's ringing most true to me right now is to write with an outline/flowchart. I've never before really needed outlines to complete a first draft of a story, but I can remember times when in very specific cases coming up with a storytelling structure got me moving again--turned it from the impossible task of creating clay from void into a more pleasing and plausible fill-in-the-blank.

I think I'm going to turn to structural devices as a regular process, rather than a special case fix, at least for now. Someone said "Get the big picture"--I think I've been losing sight of the big picture lately and just getting stuck in "how am I going to get this scene out of my head and onto the paper?" or "how the heck am I going to fix this stupid paragraph?"

To Try Tomorrow...

My husband outlines like crazy. He drafts his outline over and over again, until it's perfect. He uses an entire wall to put it up where he can see it. He's meticulous--color-coding A plot vs. B & C plots in one draft, then in the next draft he color-codes where his MC is active vs. passive, etc. This is just his outline. He makes sure everything's working before he writes a draft, which he says is like just "unfolding the outline." By then he's already written several scenes, because he can see them like anyone else can. He plugs them into the outline and "unfolds" it. His first drafts are like most people's fifth or sixth.

His outline will go through 15 or 20 drafts before he's ready to write, but by then he knows all his characters' motivations, all his plot points are in order, and his loose ends are tied up.

I'm not as patient as he is. I wrote my first draft just to get it on paper. It's full of junk, but there's stuff in it I wanted to use. So I took his idea and wrote an outline to put up on the wall. It changes as I go along, but I could see where I could cut, where I needed filling in, etc.

I can also see where I'm going!

Next time, though, I'll be more meticulous and outline more carefully. Slow and steady wins this race.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Now that's, um, detail-oriented, aerteP! I can't swear I've ever gotten quite that fixated. But...

Very recently I played with the Celtic Knot thing in order to give myself some ideas about where my NaNoWriMo novel might go, and while I did get some insight into character dynamics from it, I also got a little distracted making curly shapes with Adobe Illustrator. Also got stuck a little trying too hard to adhere to what the artwork was doing. The trick, I think, is to abandon a tool once it has served its purpose (cf. Buddhist anecdote about carrying rafts around). My attention got refocused on how the characters' actions affect the goals of other characters, which was good. But sticking with it too long, I risked getting obsessed with "No! Blue line goes over green line, so I have to have another scene in which..." which was bad.

The best specific example of structure saving my butt that I can remember is a story I was writing on deadline (college assignment) that just wasn't coming out. My premise was not turning into a story. Once I made the decision that I'd have one scene per day of week, suddenly not only was deciding what happened in those scenes easier, but I had some extra thematic weight materialize along the way to do with Good Friday and Easter Sunday and Going Back To Work On Monday. So.

The story I'm working on now has a structure already, a sort of fairy tale 3-repetitions/variations-of-basic-action thing, and I think it's been bogged down in my head by Too Many Ideas. I've set it in my home neighborhood, full of setting details and childhood memories to pillage, and I've got about three different directions the "how does it work" of the what-if can go. I think outlining it on paper will help me better define the story and so cull out the ideas, memories, and details that don't serve it.

[aertep]

Yeah, well, Freud would have loved us.:)

[paritoshuttam]

Sample this:
"Sooner or later, he had to get out into the cold, mean streets, but right now, he was not getting out of his cosy bed."

My confusion is, is it ok to use "right now", or should I use "right then" in the sentence above? On similar lines, in a narrative passage in the past tense, should I use "that day" for "today", or "the previous day" for "yesterday"?

The writing sounds stiff-y when I avoid using "now" or "today". My grammar is getting all messy.

- Paritosh

[retterson]

Sample this:
"Sooner or later, he had to get out into the cold, mean streets, but right now, he was not getting out of his cosy bed."

My confusion is, is it ok to use "right now", or should I use "right then" in the sentence above? On similar lines, in a narrative passage in the past tense, should I use "that day" for "today", or "the previous day" for "yesterday"?

The writing sounds stiff-y when I avoid using "now" or "today". My grammar is getting all messy.

- Paritosh
IMHO: "Sooner or later, he had to get out onto the cold, mean streets [and do what?], but for now, he wasn't going getting out of his warm, clean sheets."

I think it should be "for now."

[allenparker]

Jim wrote:


"That's my attitude. If the topic has worth, it'll stay on the first page. If it doesn't -- people who are interested can still search while other, more interesting, topics move to the head of the line."

Although I am just a bear of little brains who likes to eat hunny from a jar, I see the jar half full.

Any topic that weathers such a lengthy time in the forums as this one has, should be scrutinized for its content. If the content is universal, timely, and filled with useful information so that the forum would suffer severely from the demise of the thread, you stickyize the thing.

The point is that threads fall from temporary importance for saeveral reasons. Often, the reason is that another thread is momentarily a hot topic and needs to be found at the top of the list for a short time. Other times, you may have a bountiful array of useless threads that occupy the top spots.

In any event, this thread serves a purpose to many people on AW and parts unknown to the AW world.

Just a thought from the palatially sticky hunny futon... awp.

[Dawn R]

You can't make a vase if you don't have the clay on your wheel.

Thanks Uncle Jim. I needed that. Am going to print it out and pin it on the wall right in front of my computer.

[lfraser]

Thanks, everyone. The one suggestion out of all this stellar advice that's ringing most true to me right now is to write with an outline/flowchart.

This advice has really helped me, too.

I spent much of the last two days outlining the first half of my novel, and by putting each chapter into a discrete section and analysing exactly what I see happening in each, I managed to tighten up the story line considerably, clarify where I was going, and understand what motivates each of the main characters.

Where it helped the most was in discovering where my logic and plotting were faulty and where I had written long segments for the sake of the prose and not because the segment was appropriate to either the character or to the plot. When you summarize a chapter in two or three paragraphs, any lack of forward movement quickly becomes evident.

Now that I've done the summary, I'm finding it much easier to delete prose I wanted to hang onto just because it read reasonably well.

Thanks.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

I've found Holly Lisle's One-Pass Manuscript Revision (http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Workshops/one-pass-revision.html) technique to be of use. I've never actually gotten through a revision in a single pass, but her process here is a good one and helps me out as long as I don't kick myself for taking much longer with it than she does.

The bit about making each scene justify its existence was especially epiphantastic for me.

[Judg]

Sample this:
"Sooner or later, he had to get out into the cold, mean streets, but right now, he was not getting out of his cosy bed."

My confusion is, is it ok to use "right now", or should I use "right then" in the sentence above? On similar lines, in a narrative passage in the past tense, should I use "that day" for "today", or "the previous day" for "yesterday"?

The writing sounds stiff-y when I avoid using "now" or "today". My grammar is getting all messy.

- ParitoshNow can mean what is present in the context. So you're quite correct to use it.

And choosing the correct word is not grammar, it's semantics. I know, I'm anal... *sigh* Look at the bright side - you're not the one who has to live with me. ;)

[Brickie]

I've found Holly Lisle's One-Pass Manuscript Revision (http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Workshops/one-pass-revision.html) technique to be of use. I've never actually gotten through a revision in a single pass, but her process here is a good one and helps me out as long as I don't kick myself for taking much longer with it than she does.


I was having a look at that. I wasn't entirely convinced that it will convert first draft to publishable manuscript in one pass, but as you say there are some interesting ideas in there.

Does Uncle Jim (and for that matter anyone else) agree with Ms Lisle's contentions about scenes:

1) If it's not advancing the plot, dealing with the theme/sub-theme or providing characterisation, it shouldn't be there at all.

2) Each scene should almost be stand-alone in its own right, with an opening, a point of conflict or crisis and a resolution.

3) "You can safely eliminate almost all greetings and goodbyes in conversation, every instance where the character is driving and thinking, or sipping tea and thinking, or taking a shower in thinking. You can skip the parts where characters are getting from point A to point B if they aren’t engaged in pitched battle or serious trouble of some sort at the same time. Mostly you can eliminate waking-up and going to bed routines.
You want to give the impression of reality and of a life without actually showing the whole thing. Think of your novel as “A Life: The Good Parts Version.” All the sex and violence, passion and struggle. None of the teeth-brushing."

[Manderley]

Does Uncle Jim (and for that matter anyone else) agree with Ms Lisle's contentions about scenes:

1) If it's not advancing the plot, dealing with the theme/sub-theme or providing characterisation, it shouldn't be there at all.

2) Each scene should almost be stand-alone in its own right, with an opening, a point of conflict or crisis and a resolution.

3) "You can safely eliminate almost all greetings and goodbyes in conversation, every instance where the character is driving and thinking, or sipping tea and thinking, or taking a shower in thinking. You can skip the parts where characters are getting from point A to point B if they aren’t engaged in pitched battle or serious trouble of some sort at the same time. Mostly you can eliminate waking-up and going to bed routines.
You want to give the impression of reality and of a life without actually showing the whole thing. Think of your novel as “A Life: The Good Parts Version.” All the sex and violence, passion and struggle. None of the teeth-brushing."

This is anyone else answering:

1) Yes, I agree. If it's got nothing to do with the story or its themes and we don't learn anything more about your characters, why would you want to include it? The idea that one would want to include random things that don't add to the story in any way puzzles me.

2) I haven't thought too hard about this, and have no opinion on the matter.

3) Yes, and no. Most books do just fine without these scenes that can bore a read to tears. But I can see that there are stories where such things might be, not only necessary to include, but the whole point of the story in itself. I'm here thinking of the more quiet, literary character-driven pieces (and I really don't care to go into a debate with Jamesaritchi about this), where nothing seems to be happening on the outside, yet there's a whole world changing on the inside.

[James D. Macdonald]

It all boils down to "To carve a statue of an elephant, get a block of marble and remove everything that doesn't look like an elephant."

Yes, eliminate greetings, unless they reveal character, advance the plot, or suport the theme.

[badducky]

My two cents on the carving of elephants:

Novels look very big. They are not. They are in fact very, very small. The larger the novel, the smaller the writing must be. Novels are this way because one must hold the audience's attention for a long time.

If you want to write something very large and expansive and fat, write poetry in one page or less. For, in that scenario your artistic flights of fancy might be brief enough that your audience might indulge you.

Novels have no room for indulgence, because you have to hold someone's attention for a very long time. You must write small.

Same thing, but said differently.

[James D. Macdonald]

I went to a science fiction convention this last weekend. I brought along a half-dozen copies of our latest (from the case of books our publisher sent us, free) to put on the Freebies Table on Friday evening. They vanished within minutes.

By noon on Saturday, the book dealers in the Dealers' room had sold out of our books.

The reading of the new story went well on Saturday afternoon. That's "Philologos," which was the Christmas Challenge story.

[Stew21]

Sounds like a successful con, Uncle Jim! congrats.

[blacbird]

Sounds like a successful con, Uncle Jim! congrats.

I thought a successful con was Robert Fletcher.

caw

[PeeDee]

I thought a successful con was Robert Fletcher.

caw

He's here all week! Tip your waiters!

(sheesh)

[allenparker]

As a humor writer, I spend time thinking about what makes people laugh. Sometimes I stumble across a good idea while tripping over the cat while walking, but that is another story.

I took some time yesterday to go to my local B and N to see what they are stocking this season. The selection was not what I expected.

About 100 different titles. Of those:

22 titles dealing with cats.
14 titles either written by or about southern humor, 5 of which Jeff Foxworthy wrote.
11 duct tape titles.

It seems that a book written about rednecks duct taping cats to their trucks is certain to be a hit. My questions is,

Is this normal? The numbers seemed unusual.

Another strange thing was that there were many titles by 1st Book with pub dates into the 90's. Missing from the frey was the classic stuff; Dave Barry with only one title, Gary Larson with only 2 titles. Bunny Suicide series only had two separate copies and two collected series spots.

All of this has me terribly confused. How does one fight little warm kittens and people with only two teeth?

Is there no serious comedy anymore?

[HConn]

Sure, there's "serious" comedy. I'm reading a Terry Pratchett novel right now.

Why would the mere existence of non-serious cat books--even a preponderance of them--mean that other kinds of humor doesn't exist?

[allenparker]

Sure, there's "serious" comedy. I'm reading a Terry Pratchett novel right now.

Why would the mere existence of non-serious cat books--even a preponderance of them--mean that other kinds of humor doesn't exist?

It is not that it doesn't exist, but what the stores are stocking is not necessarily a broad spectrum of the genre.

Now, take this with a grain of salt. It was one Barnes and Noble on one day at one hour of that day. I just found it unusual that the weight of stock was in short, less thought-provoking works. BTW, this is exactly what I write, stuff that is not even remotely serious.

[HConn]

It may be that the "serious" humor gets stocked elsewhere.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

3) "You can safely eliminate almost all greetings and goodbyes in conversation, every instance where the character is driving and thinking, or sipping tea and thinking, or taking a shower in thinking. You can skip the parts where characters are getting from point A to point B if they aren’t engaged in pitched battle or serious trouble of some sort at the same time. Mostly you can eliminate waking-up and going to bed routines."I am reminded of how I tried to handle this in the WIP, or at least the novel that is the most in progress in the moment, having had its first 3 chaps workshopped extensively last year. Chapter 3 consisted mostly of the MC driving. It had to, because Something Important To The Plot happens during the drive, and jumping right to the Something Important with no during-the-drive build-up struck me as Microwaving The Souffle (http://www.sfwa.org/writing/glossary.html).

Aware of the dangers of driving-and-thinking scenes, I made the MC's thoughts a series of flashbacks to the previous evening. I thought that was very clever of me. Unfortunately, everyone else thought it was unnecessary temporal distortion. And, y'know, they were right. What's more, the previous evening was the scene of much eating-and-talking, another dangerous thing to do--except character and plot were advanced during the eating-and-talking, or at least in my head they were advanced, and if they are not at current they will be in the rewrite, dammit.

At this point I'm thinking it'll be driving-and-cell-phoning, which is still dangerously close to doing-x-and-thinking, but it brings in an important secondary character's perspective much earlier in the novel. Which is good. I hope.

Really, I'm not sure you can get away from doing-x-and-thinking unless the novel is a cliffhanger action page-turner like, oh, The Da Vinci Code. Humans do a lot of thinking while they do x. But I totally agree that doing-x-and-thinking scenes, should they exist, must work much harder than action scenes to justify their existence. They can't just say "I am elephant!" They have to actually pick peanuts up with their trunks and display the sun glinting off their ivory tusks and smoosh small rodents with their dinner-plate-sized feet (because that stuff about elephants being afraid of mice is pure cartoon bunk, man, bunk I say).

[James D. Macdonald]

The stuff on the bookstore shelves may also reflect what didn't sell. The stuff that sold hasn't been restocked yet.

Write what you want to, what you're passionate about. If you write to the market, editors may be saying "Why is it that suddenly everyone's sending me Southern Cats Duct Taped to the Fender books?"

[Diane]

Write what you want to, what you're passionate about. If you write to the market, editors may be saying "Why is it that suddenly everyone's sending me Southern Cats Duct Taped to the Fender books?"

What? .... Oh no. <quietly takes WIP and puts it a box labeled SCDTttF Project>

[jdparadise]

At this point I'm thinking it'll be driving-and-cell-phoning, which is still dangerously close to doing-x-and-thinking, but it brings in an important secondary character's perspective much earlier in the novel. Which is good. I hope.


What you're describing sounds like the "sequel" part of the "scene and sequel" couplet. Which implies to me that a scene might be necessary first; if the scene is of such significance to the character that s/he needs time to absorb it, the drive would be a natural time to do so.

It also sounds to me like the three chapters need to be condensed; three chapters of a character doing -anything- is probably deadly, and driving moreso. Unless you're writing something called Jimmy Drives a Truck.

My suggestion, FWIW:

Chapter 1: Some thematically-related triggering incident that shoves the character in a direction s/he wasn't prepared to go, but which the character survives barely intact. If the underlying premise of your piece is "Kittens love yarn, and will kill to get it" the opening scene of the opening chapter might be the MC playing with a sharp-nailed little furball who draws blood fighting for a ball of yarn, sinking its little talons so deep that veins are hanging out; the MC manages to keep the yarn, though, and drives to the hospital thinking 'golly, that was one crazy cat.'.

Chapter 2, Scene 1: Driving, and talking on the cell--possibly arguing on the cell, with the argument threatening some thematically important element of the character's life. ("Dude, you -have- to put that kitten down. Vicious. Is it a werecat?")

Chapter 2, Scene 2: The "real" triggering incident. ("Dude, really. I'm almost at the hospital right now. If you don't put that cat down I'm going to sue for the--what the--" :: crash :: :: tinkle :: meowwwww)

[PeeDee]

I had not previously heard of the One-Pass Manusript Revision wossname, and normally I pay these sort of things no mind, because they never do anything but irritate me.

After reading it -- particularly, the bit in part one about listing all those details -- I think I like the idea, and I think I'd be interested to try it before doing a second draft of a novel. It might be interesting to do before a first draft, come to that. Myne brain is a-turnin'.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

My suggestion, FWIW:

Chapter 1: Some thematically-related triggering incident that shoves the character in a direction s/he wasn't prepared to go, but which the character survives barely intact. If the underlying premise of your piece is "Kittens love yarn, and will kill to get it" the opening scene of the opening chapter might be the MC playing with a sharp-nailed little furball who draws blood fighting for a ball of yarn, sinking its little talons so deep that veins are hanging out; the MC manages to keep the yarn, though, and drives to the hospital thinking 'golly, that was one crazy cat.'.

Chapter 2, Scene 1: Driving, and talking on the cell--possibly arguing on the cell, with the argument threatening some thematically important element of the character's life. ("Dude, you -have- to put that kitten down. Vicious. Is it a werecat?")

Chapter 2, Scene 2: The "real" triggering incident. ("Dude, really. I'm almost at the hospital right now. If you don't put that cat down I'm going to sue for the--what the--" :: crash :: :: tinkle :: meowwwww)Dude! You've totally ready my WIP! Admit it. ;)

Seriously, that's pretty much what I've got, if I were writing about deadly kittens, only there's a Chapter 1.5 in which the MC thinks he's actually going to be OK without going to the hospital, because he didn't need that thumb anyway, but then his buddy takes one look at the veins hanging out and goes, "Dude! How are you going to pursue a successful career as a rock musician without your left thumb? And what if it gets infected? You'll end up with your whole arm amputated, you wait much longer! Go to the hospital now!" And the MC goes, "all right, all right, I'm going," and he stares glumly out the door down the long, terrible road to the hospital that he will have to travel on the morn, Not Liking It One Bit.

I think I like your novel premise better than mine, actually. Everything goes better with kitties. And yarn.

[James D. Macdonald]

Looks like everyone's getting into the "contest" thing. First Simon & Schuster, now Crown Publishing Group.

What the hey -- if you're unpublished and unrepresented, why not? There isn't an entry fee.

http://www.randomhouse.com/crown/blindsubmission/

[BardSkye]

I think I'm going to revive an old manuscript now that I know a little more about how to write properly.

And I wanted to bump this back to page 1 where it belongs.

[Nangleator]

Is that a good idea? Or not?

Published writers, have you ever polished up an old practice MS and made it pay? Is it faster or slower than starting from scratch? Easier or harder?

[BardSkye]

This one isn't really too bad. Just had a few spots where I knew something was wrong but couldn't figure out exactly what it was.

If nothing else, it'll give me some practise while I'm pondering what to do next with the others presently under construction.

[Judg]

I don't see much difference between doing that and working on a second draft. If it's not fatally flawed, go for it.

[James D. Macdonald]

Why not try? Either treat it as a first draft, or treat it as an outline.

There isn't any one way to play this game. And if you've been growing in skill, problems that may have stopped you the first time may be surmountable now.

If the book is fatally flawed -- you'll find out.

[BardSkye]

I don't think it's fatally flawed. Back some years ago I sent it out and got one request for a full. The agent sent me back a hand-written note saying it didn't move fast enough (it's a sports mystery.) At the time I couldn't figure out what she meant; to me it seemed to move along well. Now, thanks to all you fine folk here and Uncle Jim in particular, I'm pretty sure I can read it with new eyes and take out the speedbumps.

[aertep]

My novel is in its third draft, and each draft is a million percent better than the last. Still, my nightmare is that I will have spent all this time on it and it will never be good enough.

The time won't be wasted if I've learned how to write a book, and if I put that knowledge to use in writing a publishable one. I love this one, though, love my story, want it to be the one that's publishable. Am I making sense?

Just venting that little fear.

[Nangleator]

I certainly understand that point of view, aertep. I'm in the same boat. So far, though, my novel hasn't generated any interest.

Think of it as school work, I guess.

[aertep]

Thanks, Nangleator. If I had nothing to learn, perhaps I wouldn't find it as fascinating as I do. I don't seem to have any trouble sticking with it.

[ted_curtis]

My novel is in its third draft, and each draft is a million percent better than the last. Still, my nightmare is that I will have spent all this time on it and it will never be good enough.

The time won't be wasted if I've learned how to write a book, and if I put that knowledge to use in writing a publishable one. I love this one, though, love my story, want it to be the one that's publishable. Am I making sense?

Just venting that little fear.

I am in the same boat as well...except I'm officially somewhere in draft nine. It's the last one. At some point enough is enough, and either it's sellable or it never will be.

You know, it's sort of like your first love, first apartment, first kiss, first paying job...not the best you'll ever have, but still has a special place in your life.

[aertep]

I am in the same boat as well...except I'm officially somewhere in draft nine. It's the last one. At some point enough is enough, and either it's sellable or it never will be.

You know, it's sort of like your first love, first apartment, first kiss, first paying job...not the best you'll ever have, but still has a special place in your life.

Ted, that's a lovely way to put it. Jim and others have told us to write the first one and put it away, then write the publishable one. You also hear of others publishing their first one. Who knows which will be the truth for us?

But what you said makes me feel better about whatever happens to my first love--er--novel.

[paritoshuttam]

My novel is in its third draft, and each draft is a million percent better than the last. Still, my nightmare is that I will have spent all this time on it and it will never be good enough.
...
Just venting that little fear.

Definitely identify with that feeling. I am almost done with my second rewrite (meaning version #3), and I know it's a lot better than the first two. But there's this sickening/exciting feeling that there probably could be a version #4 which is a lot better than #3. When will I get the feeling that I can't make it any better?

- Paritosh

[aertep]

I don't know, paritosh. I think, like painters, sooner or later we have to decide to finish and just stop.

The more I write, the better writer I become. So maybe I should just finish this book and start the next one, and let the next one be a better book, you know?

[Cassiopeia]

I don't know, paritosh. I think, like painters, sooner or later we have to decide to finish and just stop.

The more I write, the better writer I become. So maybe I should just finish this book and start the next one, and let the next one be a better book, you know?
In everything we do...if we are open enough we learn. If you feel you are finished with the book..send it out and move on to the next one. Sometimes, we get so stuck because we want everything we do to be a success and so we obsess and don't finish or we spend too much time rewriting.

I have come to understand that I can not be the writer and the editor at the same time. When you are finished...review it..see if you can edit it..if not send it out for someone to say yes or no and if they say no..hopefully they will tell you constructively why the answer is no.

But never look at a lack in success as failure. It might be trite to say but the only failure is in not trying. And it is true...I have learned more in my life from my failures than my successes and the successes came after a long period of trial and error. While my successes have been in the business sector, I can't help but feel it applies to everything in life.

I would set that book aside if you have rewritten it to death and work on something new. And like I said...send out the finished book and see who bites.

Casi

[James D. Macdonald]

Due to routing problems in the northeast USA, Making Light (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/) appears to be down at this hour.

Details here: http://sideshow.me.uk/

Pass the word to those who need to know.

[Nangleator]

UJ:

I think you've suggested before that the writer shouldn't expect any more influence over cover art than an average fan enjoys. Specifically, though, what has been your most recent experience?

Did you see more than one comp for Land of Mist and Snow, or just final art? Have you ever been able to offer advice, or choose from a couple different presentations? Will you ever get that chance?

[James D. Macdonald]

In the case of Land of Mist and Snow, the publisher asked for cover suggestions, we sent several, they went with something else. We saw the finished art (which, BTW, is totally gorgeous, even better than the final printed version).

In other cases, we've been asked for cover suggestions and have had them used. Or asked for scenes from books that the artist might find useful. For interior art we've had more of a chance to comment, and have worked with the artist. But mostly -- the first we've known of the cover art was when the cover flats came in.

Complaining about the cover art is the author's traditional right. (See Mr. Earbrass (http://www.infinity-bound.net/TUH/tuh24.html) for an example.)

[Dru]

Speaking of:

Just thought you should know Land of Mist and Snow had a nice end-cap at the local B&N where I picked up my copy, shelved right next to Naomi Novik's Temeraire books. Nice synergy there.

[James D. Macdonald]

W00t!

[TheIT]

Finally taking the plunge to post in this thread. I read about half of this thread in full when I first found AW and I've just refreshed my memory by reading the "Uncle Jim, undiluted" thread, and right now I feel like the kid from the Far Side cartoon ("May I be excused? My brain is full.") Also, I'd like to add my thanks for all the information here. Very helpful.

So, apologies if this has been covered before, but I was wondering about carrying the story through dialog vs. narrative. In my fantasy WIP, I've got talking scenes interspersed with action scenes, and I find whenever I get stuck I fall back to writing dialog rather than action. For me, the story flows whenever I can write dialog, but trying to write description feels like I'm pulling out my own teeth. Any suggestions or exercises to make writing description easier? Any suggestions on how to gauge whether there's too much or too little description?

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm probably the wrong guy to ask, because we published a short story that was 100% dialog (not even any 'said' tags).

Okay, here's what you can do. Print out your chapters and tape the pages to the wall on the far side of your living room. Look at the grey areas. Too many big blocks? Break them up with dialog. Too thin and jaggety? Add a few paragraphs of narrative.

Be certain that you aren't writing a "head story" (the one where the story is in your head, not on the paper).

Okay, now go to your favorite book, with a couple of highlighters in hand. Highlight dialog in yellow and description in green. See how that author handled the mix.

I can't give you a formula, or an easy trick. This is where you'll be making your own art.

[aertep]

Jim's right. Try those things, they'll help. They helped me (especially hanging the story on the wall).

TheIT, you're right, too--dialogue helps a story flow. As a reader, I balk when I come upon huge blocks of unbroken text. Dialogue tells me the characters are carrying the scene, as opposed to the narrator. The action feels like it's happening, as opposed to the narrator describing how it happened. It feels more immediate.

Example:
"Eat this." With dirty hands, he tossed her a slice of bread.

"Thanks." She took a bite, trying not to think of germs.

Instead of:
He tossed her a slice of bread with dirty hands, and told her to eat it. She thanked him and took a bite, trying not to think of germs.

Okay, it's early, this isn't genius. But I think dialogue brings us into the scene and description kinda hurries through it. There are times when you need to do one, and times when you need to do the other.

[BrendaK]

Jim,

In case nobody has mentioned this yet, I reluctantly draw your attention to a new listing in the Paying Markets section of ralan.com. The title of the publication is _Yog's Notebooks_. I was surprised when I saw it, since I didn't think you were about to start a 'zine and I didn't think you'd lend your support to one.

Sure enough, on reading the guidelines, the words "James" and "Macdonald" appear nowhere. Also, I know that Yog was a character's name (in Lovecraft?) long before Yog Sysop became your nickname.

Still, personally, I don't like this. You've helped so many people over the years, including me, that I'm afraid a casual reader will associate your name and your reputation with this market.

Any thoughts?

Brenda Kalt

[James D. Macdonald]

"Yog" is a character from Lovecraft, and a name from India before that. I expect that it's a horror 'zine of some kind?

[BrendaK]

From their guidelines: "The editors of Yog's Notebook are looking for sf/fantasy/horror short stories and flash fiction about what happens when people encounter the unexpected." FYI.

Brenda Kalt

[bsolah]

From their guidelines: "The editors of Yog's Notebook are looking for sf/fantasy/horror short stories and flash fiction about what happens when people encounter the unexpected."

Awesome. I might just have something for them.

[James D. Macdonald]

At half-a-cent per word, I hope you've tried some of the higher-paying 'zines first.

[Vince]

Hi – I’m looking for some advice on a narration question that I have. I refer to my main character by his first name throughout the book. But I’m at a point where I’m telling the story from the villain’s POV. In my head the villain would never call the main character by his first name. So the question is, even though I’ve used “John” when narrating the entire story so far, is it acceptable to start referring to him as “Smith” when I'm telling the story from the villain's POV? Again this is only in narration, in dialogue I have been using “Smith” when the villain speaks.

Thanks, Vince

[James D. Macdonald]

Change in POV entails ... changing the Point of View. If the POV character calls this person "Smith," then that's what he calls him. I don't see a problem.

How else will we know that POV has changed than that there are differences between the voices?

[HConn]

UJ, I just finished Land of Mist and Snow last week and it was fantastic. The characters, (and their individual voices), the setting, everything was great.

Why didn't it get a hardcover release? It strikes me that it could have had a more prestigious release.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Hello,

I thought I would add to the discussion about re-writing an older manuscript, which is farther up the thread a couple pages.

I am presently in the process of re-writing a work which I had printed through PA at one time. I am now learning quite a bit about just how much has had to change to get the piece to its proper readability.

So far I've had to remove three entire chapters, several info-dumps, and have had to separate certain scenes into multiple scenes because of head-hopping. The overall theme of the piece seems to be rock-solid, but I wanted you all to know this has been one of the most challenging things I've ever done. To re-write this work to a good readability and a better overall story, I just wanted you all to know, has not been an easy task.

But I wanted to thank Uncle Jim and all the other posters here for your help in making me realize good writing from bad writing, and also for helping me to understand what works and what doesn't. I believe I will be able to finish the re-write, but it would not be possible without the insights I've found here on this thread, specifically.

Thank you all kindly for your help, and thank you, Uncle Jim, for starting this thread in the first place. It is a good resource, through which I am slowly learning how to better my writing.

:)

[spinnerin]

I finally made it to the end of the thread, only to be completely surprised by a mention of my own project.

BrendaK, and anyone else who's curious: I'm sure I'd seen references to Yog's Law before, but I didn't realize that naming my zine "Yog's Notebook" would appear connected to anything else until someone on Making Light pointed it out. Oops. I hope this doesn't confuse too many people.

I won't be offended at all if we're a place to send work to only after trying bigger markets. This is an experiment for me, and I wanted to pay at least a small amount, even though the initial funding is my own income. I'm hoping to imitate Escape Pod and Knitty in increasing the rates after we get off the ground.

The posts here are an incredible resource. I feel inspired to actually write something myself.

Audrey

[BrendaK]

Spinnerin,

This makes me feel much better. Much success!

Brenda Kalt

[BrendaK]

Is the villain obsessed with the hero? In that case, the hero might be "He" all the time. The villain knows who he's thinking about.

I think I use first and last names when referring to people I'm angry at. Two words instead of one to carry the venom? Makes them seem more important (and my anger more important)?

How do you refer to an opponent when you're not face to face with him? Say, the coach of the other sports team. Or the nasty guy in the other department at work.

FWIW.

Brenda Kalt

[bsolah]

I won't be offended at all if we're a place to send work to only after trying bigger markets. This is an experiment for me, and I wanted to pay at least a small amount, even though the initial funding is my own income. I'm hoping to imitate Escape Pod and Knitty in increasing the rates after we get off the ground.

I've received about three rejections for this story, but I'm in the process of polishing the MS after rewriting the ending, which gives the story so much more punch. I'm going to send it out to Cemetery Dance first, but I wouldn't be complaining if my first sale went to your mag. We can help each other get off the ground.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm going to port in some posts I made in another thread, (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54611) because I think they can be of general interest. Folks who want to see 'em in context are invited to do so.

=============

I'm going to go way out on a limb and guess what was going on from the OP's post.

Wizardry was a series of computer role-playing games from Sirtech. These date back to Apple II days. Their last game, Wizardry 8, came out for the PC in 2001. (Their website http://www.sir-tech.com/ hasn't been updated in some years.)

The OP apparently wrote a trilogy using characters and situations from this game series (essentially, fan fiction), then contacted the copyright holder in an attempt to sell it to them. Discussion with Sirtech, however, did not prove fruitful.

Some time later, Sirtech sold the rights to Wizardry to another company. This second company is interested in publishing the novels (even though they may never have published anything in their lives). One possible point of difficulty might be that while this second company bought the rights to the Wizardry games themselves, it's unclear if they bought the right to make derivative works (which a series of novels would be).

It strikes me that that's a problem for the second company and their lawyers to hash out with Sirtech and their lawyers, and of little concern to the author. If they get the right to make derivative works, well and good. If not, no sale, everyone moves on to other projects.

Other points of contention might revolve around characters and situations. The characters and situations that come directly from the game are clearly the property of the copyright holder. The original characters and situations that the OP created, however ... the author would want to keep the rights to them, while the game company would want to acquire those rights (this would simplify their lives in case they ever wanted to make more games in the series and might want to use those characters and situations (or ones similar enough to arguably be them). It would also simplify their lives if someone wanted to make a movie out of the games, and use the books as a source.

I can see where a lawyer might get involved in all this (though an agent working on commission rather than a lawyer might be a better choice for the author).

I could be entirely out to lunch on all this -- it's pure speculation based on the clues in the OP's message.

Now some personal notes. I've done a bunch of tie-in work. The usual thing is for the copyright holder to approach the author with the idea for the novel, and negotiate from that point. The work is usually work-for-hire (though if you have a decent agent you can get profit participation in the book sales). The contract will spell out in nauseating detail exactly what rights are in play (and if you can get away without the copyright holder getting all rights, you're doing very well indeed).

Another personal note: Going with a game company as a publisher is a path strewn with landmines. Going with a first-time publisher is a path entangled with barbed wire. Going with a first-time publisher that's also a game company is a path that's mined, entangled with barbed wire, and under sporadic artillery fire. It's way easy to get hurt.

I really don't know enough about the OP's present situation to give any useful advice. A bit of clarification would be very handy. (Particularly what's meant by "option" in this case.)

================

I'd say, find an agent.

If the agent can get a $12,000 advance (which isn't out of the ballpark for three books), it'll still cost the same $1,800, but it'll be painless (and after the sale).

All the money that comes in from the book goes from the publisher to the agent, the agent subtracts 15% (or whatever the agreed-upon commission is) and passes on the rest.

There's a list of Science Fiction/Fantasy agents here:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42019

There's another list here:
http://www.sfwriter.com/agent.htm

As always, research, research, research any agent on any list you find.

If you already have an agreement in principle with the owners of the Wizardry copyrights that they will buy these books, you shouldn't have any trouble interesting an agent in representing you.

================

The way I see it, the big problem is that there's exactly one company on the face of the earth that can legally publish this trilogy.

(That's one of the reasons why writing fan fiction is a bad idea.)

The first company wasn't interested.

Now the second company potentially is.

Let's say that the second company has the right to make derivative works.

Let's say that they are interested in publishing these books. Let's say that they've never published anything, aren't clear on how to go about it, and have never seen a publishing contract.

One of the things that they can do is call up a regular publisher on the phone and say, "Hi, this is Game Company X. We want to publish some books based on our games! How about you edit, print, and distribute them?" The publisher will say "Sure!" and their lawyers will work something out. (To my direct knowledge, Roc, Warner, and Tor have all published books on exactly this basis for various game companies. I'm sure they have boilerplate contracts on file to cover the situation.)

Now the usual thing is for the publisher to come up with the contract, offer it, and the author either accept or not accept that contract. (Having the author coming up with the contract is ... bizarre. I think that derives from this being a first-time author dealing with a first-time publisher.)

Generally the first contract that the publisher offers has some clauses in it that aren't too favorable to the author, so the agent works things out. Generally, the agent's major weapon ("Well, if we can't come to an agreement, I can take this manuscript elsewhere") has vanished, since there is only one company that can possibly publish the book, and the company is well aware of that fact.

Three options right now:

a) Get an agent who will work on commission to hammer out the deal with the company that now owns the rights.

b) File off the serial numbers and attempt to sell the re-written work to another publisher.

c) Forget this trilogy. Move on and write another novel.

No matter what else you do, you'll want to move on and write another novel in any case ... so start doing that while searching for an agent.

(Or: Look, I can write you a contract for free. Here goes:

[Author] grants all rights in [Name of Work] to [Name of Company] for the full term of copyright in return for $20,000 paid on signing. [Company] agrees that [Author] will be identified as the author of [Work] on the cover, title page, and in any promotional materials when/if the Work is published.

Signed: [Author]
Signed: [Company]
[Date]

There, that wasn't so tough, was it? They'll come back with "$20,000! Are you smoking something?" and offer $10,000. You'll say, "Do you wish my children to be beggars? $15,000!" They agree to it, you both sign. It's a lousy contract from the author's point of view, but it does bring closure to the whole affair. And you do get a professional publishing credit.)

Seriously, get an agent. And write a new, different, better book while you're looking.

========================

Wow. Crossposted again.

Please be aware that if you don't come to an agreement with Company B, that publishing the works on your website is still publishing, and is a copyright and/or trademark violation. If Company B wants to be complete dicks about it, they can shut you and your website down and make your life exceedingly unpleasant. Since they know about you and this work ... the odds of their finding out about web self-publication are pretty good. That may require them to Do Something about it.

Since you know Ms. Duane, why not take her out, buy her a beer, and ask her what she advises at this juncture?

==================

Reading more about Sir-Tech (the original company that created Wizardry) -- they're apparently bankrupt. Which means that their various rights (including the right to make derivative works) are assets controlled by a bankruptcy court until they can be sold to pay off the company's debts, adding yet another layer of mess to an already messy situation. Resolving something like that can take years even with all the good-will in the world. (Horrible things have happened to authors whose books were bought by publishers who've gone bankrupt.)

This discussion has rambled a long way from Paul S. Levine's lousy phone manners. Perhaps it should be moved to the Ask The Agent forum?

================

Oh -- one more thing. One of the reasons I caution about publishing books with a game company is that "doesn't know what it's doing" is pretty much Standard Operating Procedure.

Bottom line: no matter what happens, The Author Writes a Check is not an option. If you reach that point, you're at a dead end. Back up and try another path.

===================

[Nangleator]

(Horrible things have happened to authors whose books were bought by publishers who've gone bankrupt.)
Please explain. I can't imagine anything other than the work (and its derivatives) being locked up in legal purgatory.

Well, I guess that can be pretty bad, can't it?

[emeraldcite]

Please explain. I can't imagine anything other than the work (and its derivatives) being locked up in legal purgatory.

Well, I guess that can be pretty bad, can't it?

Imagine Tolkien's ring trilogy never getting off the ground. Or perhaps a deries character like Dirk Pitt getting tangled up in legal woes. Even if just the first book of Harry Potter got eaten up.

Considering some major authors have a single character that really makes their career, this could be devastating.

[Hillgate]

That is why you have a clause in any contract specifying that if any rights accrue to the publisher, those rights revert to author on any form of liquidation/bankruptcy on the part of publisher.

[emeraldcite]

That is why you have a clause in any contract specifying that if any rights accrue to the publisher, those rights revert to author on any form of liquidation/bankruptcy on the part of publisher.

That doesn't mean, though, that the book wouldn't be legally tied up for some time, depending on what happens during the bankruptcy.

[Hillgate]

You might have to forget that particular publisher, but you just pull it back instantly. Get your lawyers to do it. It should be straightforward.

[James D. Macdonald]

That is why you have a clause in any contract specifying that if any rights accrue to the publisher, those rights revert to author on any form of liquidation/bankruptcy on the part of publisher.

Alas, that clause, while it is a standard part of every publishing contract, is worthless.

A publisher's publishing rights to works make up the bulk of their assets, and a company in bankruptcy simply can't give away its assets. The publishing rights might wind up in the hands of a third party which is not bound by the original contract with the author, with very bad results (from the author's point of view).

Consider a non-book example: Company A rents its office furniture from Company B. Company A goes bankrupt. That office furniture might get sold at auction to satisfy Company A's debts -- and the only chance Company B might have to get its furniture back would be to bid on it.

Also: as far as any money the publisher might owe to the author, the author is an unsecured creditor. All of the secured creditors stand in line ahead of the unsecured, and the money that is left in the till or that comes from the sale of assets usually runs out long before the unsecured creditors see any.

If a company goes bankrupt while holding your publishing rights, in the best case you won't get any income from that work, and won't be able to resell it, for a period that can be measured in years. In the worst case, while you still hold the copyright, you've lost the income from that work and lost the ability to resell the work at all.

As always, if you have a legal question, ask a real lawyer. For a real-world case the answer to your particular situation is "It varies."

[Prawn]

Hi there Uncle Jim! I need some advice, and I hope you will be able to help. I have written a novel which is set in the Middle East, and I would like to incluce an English translation of a poem written by the Arabic poet Nizar Qubbani. Quabbani is dead, and I can't find his hiers or estate. His publisher has not answered my query.

The foremost translator of his work (someone who knew him; a nice Prof at Yale) has kindly offered to translate the poem for me as a courtesy to include in my novel.

Is having the rights to the English translation enough? Do I also need the rights to the original Arabic poem?

Thanks!
Prawn

[James D. Macdonald]

You will need the rights to the English translation. The question is, does the translator have the right to make that translation?

[Prawn]

I have no idea. He is the foremost English translator of the poet's works, and has published books of these poems. Qabbani ran his own publishing house which is defunct now after his death, so I can't find anyone else to contact.

P

[James D. Macdonald]

Does he possibly already have rights to the English translation of that poem?

The danger is, a second cousin twice removed may pop up from nowhere claiming to own the rights to that poem if lightning strikes and your book goes all DaVinci Code. Best to straighten out the rights-and-permissions questions now, and have 'em all in writing.

[Prawn]

Does he possibly already have rights to the English translation of that poem?

The danger is, a second cousin twice removed may pop up from nowhere claiming to own the rights to that poem if lightning strikes and your book goes all DaVinci Code. Best to straighten out the rights-and-permissions questions now, and have 'em all in writing.

He has generously consented to let me use one of his published translations, which I hope will sidestep this issue. He has offered via e-mail to let me do so free of charge. Is an e-mail enough, my dear Uncle Jim? The issue of rights to translations is bewhildering.

[James D. Macdonald]

The exact legalities of permissions require the services of a real lawyer to untangle.

However, it is my impression that a hard-copy letter with a real signature on it is required to grant rights.

[Prawn]

Thanks for your help! I was about to cry Uncle!

[Hillgate]

Alas, that clause, while it is a standard part of every publishing contract, is worthless. I THINK IF THE CLAUSE IS TIGHT ENOUGH, YOU CAN DO IT:)

A publisher's publishing rights to works make up the bulk of their assets, and a company in bankruptcy simply can't give away its assets. THAT IS TRUE UNLESS THE ACTUAL EFFECT OF GOING INTO BANKRUPTCY TRIGGERS AN EVENT THAT IS FUNDAMENTAL TO THAT ASSET - IE THE IMMEDIATE REVERSION OF RIGHTS The publishing rights might wind up in the hands of a third party NOT IF YOUR CONTRACT DOESN'T SAY SO AND THERE'S SOMETHING LIKE A CAUTION AGAINST ANY REGISTRATION. GET IN FIRST! which is not bound by the original contract with the author THERE IS NO WAY A CONTRACT CAN BE TAKEN OVER BY ANOTHER ENTITY WHICH CAN THEN IGNORE IT. IT'S EITHER ASSIGNED ON BANKRUPTCY TO A NEW ENTITY OR NOT. BUT IT CAN'T BE IN THE FIRST PLACE BECAUSE THE MINUTE THE BANKRUPTCY BEGINS THE AUTHOR'S RIGHTS REVERT AUTOMATICALLY. IF YOU ALSO STATE UP-FRONT IN THE CONTRACT THAT THE CONTRACT IS NOT CAPABLE OF ASSIGNMENT THEN THAT HELPS. , with very bad results (from the author's point of view).

Consider a non-book example: Company A rents its office furniture from Company B. Company A goes bankrupt. That office furniture might get sold at auction to satisfy Company A's debts -- and the only chance Company B might have to get its furniture back would be to bid on it. COMPANY A IS NOT ENTITLED TO SELL THAT FURNITURE AS IT DOES NOT OWN IT. IT IS NOT AN ASSET CAPABLE OF DISPOSAL. IT'S THEFT AND THE DIRECTORS OF THE COMPANY WILL GO TO PRISON (AT LEAST IN THE UK THEY WOULD).

Also: as far as any money the publisher might owe to the author, the author is an unsecured creditor. AGREED. PROBABLY NEVER SEE IT. All of the secured creditors stand in line ahead of the unsecured, and the money that is left in the till or that comes from the sale of assets usually runs out long before the unsecured creditors see any. AGREED.

If a company goes bankrupt while holding your publishing rights, in the best case you won't get any income from that work, and won't be able to resell it, for a period that can be measured in years. NOT IF YOU PROTECT YOURSELF UPFRONT AS ALREADY MENTIONED: IF NECESSARY SEEK A DECLARATORY JUDGMENT FROM THE COURT. In the worst case, while you still hold the copyright, you've lost the income from that work and lost the ability to resell the work at all.

As always, if you have a legal question, ask a real lawyer. AGREED. I TEMPER MY REMARKS WITH A BIG 'BEWARE!' SIGN!!!! :) For a real-world case the answer to your particular situation is "It varies."

I just hope it never happens to any of us!

[aertep]

Thanks for your help! I was about to cry Uncle!

Better to just cry Uncle Jim.

[James D. Macdonald]

Ah, Hillgate -- you're in the UK. Things may well work as you've stated in the UK. I wouldn't know.

Over here, the standard "in the event of bankruptcy all rights revert to the author" clause is just flat worthless. In the event of bankruptcy the rights are assets, and the assets become the property of the court, to dispose of as they please. This happens at the instant of bankruptcy and, depending on state laws, retroactively for a period of time before the bankruptcy. That is, if the company returns your rights today, and declares bankruptcy tomorrow, those rights become the property of the court anyway.

Nor does the court transfer the contract -- the court tranfers the publication rights (the asset) without any of those details like royalties and such attached. The creditor is trying to get his money back from the publisher and cares not a fig for the writer. It really is messy, and it really is bad for the writer. I can give real-world examples of this happening.

In the example I gave of the furniture -- the managers of the company aren't disposing of the property. As you point out, they can't. The court has taken that property, and the court is disposing of it. The court can, and may well do just that.

[Berry]

In the example I gave of the furniture -- the managers of the company aren't disposing of the property. As you point out, they can't. The court has taken that property, and the court is disposing of it. The court can, and may well do just that.

And the company that actually owns the furniture is now just another creditor of the bankrupt company. The defunct company owes the furniture company either lease payments or the return of the furniture; the court will decide what, if anything, they get.

[Nubling]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Just wanted to say I found this site via your thread (Google is our friend). I tried to read through the archived threads, but it's just too much information. I think what it all boils down to is:

- Outline (optional - whatever works)
- Write 2h/day, BIC method, no excuses, until reaching "the end"
- Allowed to write badly
- Outlining, research, rewriting don't count towards the 2h
- Revise until you can't stand to see it anymore
- Every word should advance character, plot, theme
- Let it age
- Revise some more
- Send to betas
- Revise some more
- Submit until Hell won't have it
- Start next project asap

Did I miss anything Truly Essential in the forty million posts I skipped? :-)