Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[ChunkyC]

Plot: Disguised as Television Executives, aliens intent on taking over the Earth start something called "Reality TV."
Chapter One

Flypt adjusted his implants. “This doesn't feel right.”

“None of this feels right,” Blypt bugled, “but you have a mission.”

Flypt kept fondling his new breasts. “After eight-hundred light years stuck in the ship, now I have to spend the next six months in a ... what did they call it?”

“A house.”

“Right. With a group of smelly humans. Great idea.”

“You were in stasis, so quit honking.” Blypt sighed, a sensation he still found strange. “Look, it took me forever to become head of programming at CBS, this is the best chance we have of taking over the Earth. Besides, you look good as a human female.”

-----------------------------------------
Last line:

Flypt couldn't hide his disappointment at being voted off Big Brother so early, but they could always subjugate the humans next season.

[Bufty]

Next time, I'll think twice before I respond to one of Uncle Jim's innocent looking questions.

Plan Nine - Due to the failure of Plans one through Eight, decide to wrap the stupid planet up in cling film, then orbit for a month.

PLAN NINE

Kommander Krop hurled the message pad at the starcruiser’s navigation screen, from which a blue-and-white sphere stared back like an albino eye. “Earth. What the hell do we want with this galactic garbage, anyway?”

“Kommander,” said the waiting comunications officer, “The link—”

“Bloody idiot! I’ve already tried eight of his damned useless plans.”

The two-way wall speakers crackled. The communications officer shrugged.

Krop winced.

“Krop, I will temporarily ignore that last remark. Plan Nine is under transmission. You have thirty days to make it a success, or else.... Contact me only to report the invasion fleet can descend unopposed.”


Last line – Krop bowed and exited, closing the door behind him – cling film had its uses.

[Nangleator]

I feel all weird being the only one with a human POV in the first 100 words, but I cut out chapters 1 through 3 and started with 4.

[Theo Neel]

Your story, your POV. Don't feel weird.

I just chose my POV based on which one gave the most laughs.

[Nangleator]

That's the difference. Laughs.

The original movie was poorly made, and now universally derided. We all wanted to jump on the bandwagon of making funny alternatives. I started with a funny story, then decided it would be a better writing exercise for myself if I tried to write it like I meant to have it published.

No laughs in mine, then. At least not in this sample.

[Ken Schneider]

Plan Eight-

Aliens develop a tasty but deadly formula that they will skillfully market to stores on earth to poison the population.

"I hardly agree,"said Professor Rellim. He grabbed the beaker out of Dr. Dub’s hand and walked back to his work station.
"Too bland I tell you, they’ll never be fooled by that concoction," Dub said.
The lab door slid open with a squealing whoosh, and in walked Captain Srooc. He wrinkled his nose as the pungent odor in the room raced up his nostrils, and pinched his nose with one finger and thumb. He looked around at several bubbling vats of brown goo.
"Is the formula ready?" he asked in a nasally tone.

Last line:
"We've started a war."

[Theo Neel]

Different strokes, Nangleator. A lot harder for me to write funny stuff. So comedy was a better exercise here. My stuff is usually darkly twisted.

Kind of enjoyed the opp to switch gears and swing a funny bone. Learned just as much by trying not to write seriously.

Still did the same amount of research. One of the character's name is Pima (obvious homage to cotton theme) while the other's is "Gossypium," the Latin name for the cotton plant. Had fun looking up funky techno-babble words; looking for words that most people won't recognize as real words. A hyoplastron, for example, is a turtle's underbelly, and an oxalidaceae is a kind of herb.

You mean my plot isn't publishable? ;) Think I might take that up as a challenge. Might be a good exercise to get me to do something that's not (too) twisted and strange.

[Nangleator]

You mean my plot isn't publishable? ;)
I think anybody would have trouble with these! :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Think I might take that up as a challenge.

Oh, definitely do.

The point of this little exercise:

The three hardest things in getting started with a novel are:

a) Coming up with an idea
b) Knowing where you're going with it
c) The first page

So, what have we done? Provided an idea. Come up with a last line (where we're going), and written the first page (in standard manuscript format, page one is about 100 words).

Guys, next time you sit down to start a story (and that's this afternoon, right? What are long weekends for?), think of how easy it was to get an idea and get started with a goal in view.

It's true that by the time you reach "THE END" that the climax may have morphed a long way from your original vision, but knowing what the goal post looks like is a big plus when you're kicking off.

Go, do.

(Oh, and I take the blame for making my example story funny. I wonder what would have happened if I'd made my example horror?)

[Bufty]

Thank you, UJ.

[Bartholomew]

I'll join in the next rounds. Those were awesome. :D

[Ken Schneider]

Hope we aren't done with this one. I'm six hundred words deep, already.

And Jim, I'd like to start something new, but I haven't finished my other WIP. I'm afraid I'd leave it for the rush of starting a new work.

Strike the above. I worked through most of the night to finish my current WIP. I was close anyway, and pushed through. YIPPEEEE!

Ken

Now I have this silly problem.
I've written historical Romance Ms
Mystery thriller MS.
Fantasy romance MS.
Children's story MS.
Mystery-PI- short story series.
Am I genre hopping? I'd say so with the exception of the romantic element in two of the three.

Oh well, I'm writing.

[Theo Neel]

Think JDM just laid out a "Plan 9 - Part B" challenge for those who didn't get to write something up in the first round....

[ProsperitySue]

I didn't get the email alert of new posts and the assignment...here's the exciting adventure of

Plan Seven from Outer Space:

Aliens infiltrate America's Homeland Security and create color-coded alerts to cause confusion. Plan fails when aliens decide to just blend in, discovering they fit in more with this agency than on home planet.

With an evil chuckle, Zork pressed the send button. He was known across the Pleiades as a master of diffusion and deception, a rare trait for his home planet, Analia.

A faint greenish hue of pleasure suffused his skin as he ran his ever so slightly scaly fingers over the brass designation of rank: Deputy Chief in Charge of Alerts, United States Department of the Office of Homeland Security.

Zork leaned back and contemplated the memo that he had just e-mailed to the media and all agencies: a listing of color codes for terrorist alerts. Red. Green. No, it’s orange! Back to green. No, I meant red!

His eyes took on an unholy gleam. Soon the backward citizens of this planet would tire of the chaos and would welcome the meticulous, rigid, unyielding reign of his home planet.

Last sentence:

Zork, having at last found a place where he truly felt at home, tossed his smashed communicator in the trash, and turned to his new life as Chief of Information Dispersion, Homeland Security.

[James D. Macdonald]

For reasons that seem good to me (e.g. cat waxing), I've started to punch some of our books into the AW library (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=91).

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40178

Buy one; better still buy a dozen. They make excellent gifts.

[Dawno]

Speaking of cat waxing - the Index is up to date again. Lots of great stuff in the last 5 months - and there are over 1070 indexed links now!

[James D. Macdonald]

Doyle and I will be down at the "Book 'Em (http://bookemfoundation.org/lebanon/)" event in Lebanon, NH, this Saturday.

(9:30 a.m. -- 4:30 p.m. at the Lebanon High School, 195 Hanover St.)

[SeanDSchaffer]

Doyle and I will be down at the "Book 'Em (http://bookemfoundation.org/lebanon/)" event in Lebanon, NH, this Saturday.

(9:30 a.m. -- 4:30 p.m. at the Lebanon High School, 195 Hanover St.)


I hope you have fun!


Uncle Jim, I have another question for you. I have been transcribing the final version of my present completed manuscript to the word processor, and I have been hating almost every minute of it. I am pretty well burnt out on Promised World as I type this post. Part of me is thinking that my problem was that I rushed myself in the original first draft.

My question is: should I perhaps slow down on the first draft, making it more quality so far as the story content goes, instead of just going, as one person put it, "Gung Ho!" in the writing of that draft?

As you know, I've been writing a long time, BUT I have never really gained a large amount of experience in the writing field, because I have never met up with other writers in groups such as this (believe it or not, the PAMB was the first writer's anything I ever joined).

Also, I've been thinking seriously about either abandoning the typewriter altogether, or using it only for the first draft and writing subsequent drafts on the computer. What do you think I should do about this?


In the mean time, I have other projects I am aching to work on. But I feel like going over to those projects at the same time as I transcribe PW to the computer, is somehow shirking my duties at getting PW done. What should I do about that?


Thank you in advance for your answers, Uncle Jim.

[James D. Macdonald]

Copying your first draft to the computer is a good thing. As you go, you can change things. If something seems short or rushed -- expand it. If something doesn't seem to be worth the trouble of retyping it --don't.

As to whether you should write your next novel de novo on the computer ... try it. See what happens.

You're allowed to start original writing on your next while you revise your current book.

[allenparker]

Doyle and I will be down at the "Book 'Em (http://bookemfoundation.org/lebanon/)" event in Lebanon, NH, this Saturday.

(9:30 a.m. -- 4:30 p.m. at the Lebanon High School, 195 Hanover St.)

This is great! I hope you sell lots of books and sign lots of autographs!


I did the Book'Em in Va last year and have signed up to do it again in October of this year.

Oct 14, 2006. Waynesboro, Virginia at the High School.

[Nangleator]

Dang it. Lebanon is just too far.

Are you not a touch typist, Sean? That would make the transcription unbearable.

Computers are very, very good for writing, and not much more cumbersome than typewriters. Less so, if you use a notebook.

I used my first word processor in the mid-70s. (!) It was a purpose-built desktop from Digital, and had many keyboard keys dedicated to certain functions like 'Delete last word,' 'Delete last paragraph' and copy, cut and paste. I even thought the 8" floppy drive was cool.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Dang it. Lebanon is just too far.

Are you not a touch typist, Sean? That would make the transcription unbearable.

Computers are very, very good for writing, and not much more cumbersome than typewriters. Less so, if you use a notebook.

I used my first word processor in the mid-70s. (!) It was a purpose-built desktop from Digital, and had many keyboard keys dedicated to certain functions like 'Delete last word,' 'Delete last paragraph' and copy, cut and paste. I even thought the 8" floppy drive was cool.


Oh, yeah, I'm a touch-typist. I have been since High School. It's just that my work is so very long, and I have to take short breaks every three or four pages because I have Carpal Tunnel Syndrome in both wrists.

And I think the worst thing about all this is, the work is done. All I have to do literally is transcribe onto the computer.

I might just write my next work in its entirety on the computer. I do not know, though, because there has always been something magical to me about the sound of a typewriter and the feel of one.


A desktop built in the 70's? That must have an expensive little piece of equipment. I've always thought the 8-inch floppy drive was pretty cool too, especially since I've never had the chance to use one. I was told they were for business machines when I was in High School. I always used personal machines, like the Apple IIe.

[Nangleator]

My dad worked for DEC, and borrowed that machine for a couple weeks. Can't imagine how much it would have cost back then.

You can probably get a scanner with OCR software for less trouble than damaging your wrists further. Then, instead of typing, you'd be feeding paper into a scanner one page at a time. A chore, but faster than typing.

[SeanDSchaffer]

My dad worked for DEC, and borrowed that machine for a couple weeks. Can't imagine how much it would have cost back then.

You can probably get a scanner with OCR software for less trouble than damaging your wrists further. Then, instead of typing, you'd be feeding paper into a scanner one page at a time. A chore, but faster than typing.


Right at the moment, I find that I enjoy typing to an extent. It's just this one project that's got me down in the dumps. Not to worry, though, as part of the reason for my being in a bad mood about this project, is the fact that Chapters 1 through, I think 3, are the longest chapters in the book. That's what makes this work so tedious. I can't break the chapters down, because of the way the story is structured, so I'll have to just keep on keeping on. But it's just the idea of seeming to go on forever at typing, bothers me. It's like the work will never end at this point.

That is what has been bothering me the most about this project.

[James D. Macdonald]

You have permission to rewrite while you transcribe.

[SeanDSchaffer]

You have permission to rewrite while you transcribe.


Note to Readers:
To some people, a statement like that quoted above could seem silly. But the fact is, I've seen too many people--myself included--who need permission from someone else to do certain things. It's an amazing little piece of some people that can be difficult to understand.

Uncle Jim, thank you for saying that. I needed someone else to give me permission. It's a psychological problem I've had since I was little. I appreciate it wholeheartedly.

[Cassiopeia]

I guess in my arrogance I never thought I needed permission to do things differently. That might make me a bit of a rebel but I have seen Uncle Jim say time and time again...do what works for you. I am taking that advise to heart along with one thing I printed out and taped to my monitor...

"Your readers can always tell when you are bored." Indeed they can and I have noticed that when my work suffers it is because I am bored with a particular part of the story.

[Nangleator]

Excellent topic!

How do you solve the problem of being bored with a certain, necessary part of your plot? Do you throw a handful of flaming cats at your main character? Or do you have to get along without that 'necessary' part?

[Cassiopeia]

When I am bored with it, I usually move onto some other work until I am in the mood to look at it from a fresh point of view. Or I just plow through it and figure I will edit it later.

[Theo Neel]

And then (sorry, Uncle Jim, I can't help myself) -- and then there are those of us who live by the motto:

It is often better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission.

[LeeFlower]

I always worry when I'm bored with part of the plot, because if I'm not interested, I figure readers won't be either.

So I guess I'm in the flaming cats camp (for sufficiently plot-related values of cat).

[Liam Jackson]

It was three or four years ago (I'm getting senile and lose track of time) when Jim gave me permission to write crap. It was a damn good thing, too, because I couldnt do it myself.

The "permission" thing is just a way of saying, "Ligthen up a little. Quit worrying about whether or not your material sucks and just write. The business of writing can beat you up just fine without you contributing to the battery." Not everything you write is going to be solid gold. That's a given. It's also: A. Perfectly normal, B. Not a life threatening condition, and C. Not a hanging offense.

It's also a given that what you think sucks today might look pretty good a few weeks or months from now. The reverse is also true. The old saying that you've got to write a million words worth of crap before you reach the good stuff holds a measure of truth.

Of course, individual mileage varies, and you could be the excpetion that writes that best seller on your first shot out of the barrel. The delta is this; Don't let the mental image of perfection paralyze you. Give yourself permission to write some crap along the way. If it happens, it happens. Don't open a vein over it. After all, it's a just a growth thing. And, if you just can't bring yourself to give yourself permission to write crap once in a while, Uncle Jim is always around. ;)

(And as with all advice and commentary, take what is useful and send the rest to file 13.)

[SeanDSchaffer]

It's also a given that what you think sucks today might look pretty good a few weeks or months from now. The reverse is also true. The old saying that you've got to write a million words worth of crap before you reach the good stuff holds a measure of truth.



I never stopped to think about that. I'm sure that with 20-some years of writing behind me (all aspiration, mind you), I must have written at least a million words of crud.

The only problem I have, really, is that I am too self-conscious. If I could get past that, I think I could become a much better individual than I am today.

[James D. Macdonald]

I just spotted this in the Google Ads of another writing-related site:


Whitmore Publishing
Quality book publishing since 1961 No publishing fee. We pay you.
whitmorepublishing.com

Let's count up the lies in that ad, shall we? Like the sign in the Dashiel Hammet story*, it threatens to have more lies than words.

We can start the first lie with the name of the firm. Whitmore Publishing (http://www.whitmorepublishing.com/index.html) isn't really Whitmore Publishing: it's Dorrance (http://www.dorrancepublishing.com/) (the well-known (not to say infamous) vanity press).

Oh, they try to disguise the fact: Whitmore gives its address as 926 Liberty Avenue, Third Floor, Pittsburgh, PA. Dorrance's address is 701 Smithfield Street, Third Floor, Pittsburgh, PA. But a brief glance at Google Maps will show you that those two addresses refer to the same building: Whitmore (http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=926+Liberty+Avenue,+Pittsburgh,+PA); Dorrance (http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=701+Smithfield+Street+Third+Floor,+Pittsburgh,+P A).

There was a publisher called Whitmore, back in the 1960s. And they did (as the current Whitmore boasts) publish Warren Adler's first book. What the current site doesn't mention is that the Whitmore that published Adler went out of business in the early 1990s. All the books are long-since reverted, all the editorial, production, sales and marketing staff has long-since moved on to other places. So "since 1961" is a shocking lie, as is their claim to quality book publishing. Or book publishing at all -- the current Whitmore arose in 2003, some ten years after the real Whitmore disappeared.

"No publishing fee" is a red flag. When is there ever a publishing fee with a legitimate press? It's also a lie. This current Whitmore follows PublishAmerica's business plan: they print, POD, and their market is their own authors. They sell overpriced books and expect to make their profit on the small number of sales that come from self-purchases. The fee is hidden in the cover price.

"We pay you." Indeed. They pay an advance that's ten times higher than PublishAmerica's. They expect to get many times more back from the author. That's the equivalent of cutting off a dog's tail and handing it back to the dog, saying, "Here you go, Fido! A nice piece of meat!"

"whitmorepublishing.com" -- lists as its technical contact a person with a dorrancepublishing.com email address. Dorrancepublishing.com's IP number is 65.39.195.54. Whitmorepublishing.com's IP number is 65.39.195.56. They're both hosted by Peer 1 Network.


A lot of writing (and other) sites don't realize that they can block URLs from advertising with them. The Google ads you see on writing-related sites (based as they are on keywords) are almost universally for scams: Vanity publishers, fake agents, unneeded services. The rule is this: If you see a publisher or an agent advertising through Google, they're either scammers or worthless.

===========

*I was reading a sign high on the wall behind the bar:

ONLY GENUINE PRE-WAR AMERICAN AND
BRITISH WHISKEYS SERVED HERE

I was trying to count how many lies could be found in those nine words, and had reached four, with promise of more, when one of my confederates, the Greek, cleared his thoat with the noise a gasoline engine's backfire.

[Bayou Bill]

Uncle Jim,

THANKS

Bayou Bill :cool:

[persiphone_hellecat]

WOW you are better than Sherlock Holmes ... that is too cool.

[aertep]

That's some world-class sleuthing, Uncle Jim.

[Allynegirl]

Thanks Uncle Jim for looking out for us! :Hug2:

Back to the topic of "Your readers can always tell when you are bored." I just posted my 6th of 7 sections of my short story re-write in SYW with the words Help and :e2paperba . I am bored with this section (and embarrassed by it). I have re-written it over and over, changed opening scene 3 times, reworked the dialogue, moved around the chronology and I just can't seem to get it to work (yes, the scene is needed). I am so close to the end of the story, I can almost taste it but I find myself "waxing cats" in order to not have to look at this story again.

I really want to be done with Assignment #21. :rant:

[James D. Macdonald]

That's some world-class sleuthing, Uncle Jim.

Not all that difficult. You know, if you see a publisher or agent advertising with Google, that they're bent somehow.

Meanwhile, Allynegirl, the general solution to problem scenes:

Flop it, crop it, or drop it.

That is, rewrite, showing the scene from a different POV. Or, make it lots shorter. If those don't work, delete it and see if the story still works.

[James D. Macdonald]

Where I'll be next weekend:

http://community.livejournal.com/farthingparty/8244.html

[SeanDSchaffer]

Where I'll be next weekend:

http://community.livejournal.com/farthingparty/8244.html



That looks like fun. I hope you have a good time and a safe trip.

[James D. Macdonald]

From the archives of SFF Net (http://archives.sff.net/newsgroups/sff/publishing/scams/00000011.html) (where I was looking for something totally unrelated), I find this list of The Lies of Publishing by the learned Teresa Nielsen Hayden (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/):

-- We'll fix that in the proofs.

-- We regard ourselves as having made a serious long-term commitment to
your career, but we can't give you any more money.

-- The manuscript is very clean.

-- We'll fix that in the second pass.

-- Don't worry, this is standard industry practice.

-- I've already started reading your manuscript, but I don't want to
comment on it until I've finished the whole thing.

-- We'll fix that in the actual book.

-- The art will look a lot better when it's printed.

-- I'll get back to you on that.

-- You don't need to put that in the contract.

-- When you've been a pro as long as I have, a few rejections don't worry you.

-- We'll fix that in the paperback.

-- The copyeditor must have done that -- too late to fix it now!

-- The cover will look a lot better when it's foiled and embossed.

-- Bad reviews don't bother me. I don't even read 'em anymore, and I
certainly don't obsess over them.

-- The sales force is very excited about your upcoming book.

-- Of course I'll have the book in on time.

-- Nobody'll notice that typo anyway.

-- We'll do whatever it takes to make it right.

-- The check is in the mail.

[Nangleator]

This pretty much matches my list of what a publisher might say to me, should I get accepted then ask any questions.

What's the list of author lies? "Sure, I'll make the deadline."

[James D. Macdonald]

Author lies? In addition to "Of course I'll have the book in on time," "A few rejections don't worry me" and "Bad reviews don't bother me" are total fibs.

[DamaNegra]

"My book is the best ever written."

[Marlowe]

"My book is the best ever written."

I don't think it counts as a lie if the author actually believes it... :)

[Nangleator]

-- We'll fix that in the proofs.

-- We'll fix that in the second pass.

-- We'll fix that in the actual book.

-- We'll fix that in the paperback.
I think that qualifies as a 'string of lies.' I feel bad for anyone who's heard all four. (I also envy them.)

It also sounds like me in my animation job. "I'll fix it in post."

[T. Nielsen Hayden]

From the archives of SFF Net (http://archives.sff.net/newsgroups/sff/publishing/scams/00000011.html) (where I was looking for something totally unrelated), I find this list of The Lies of Publishing by the learned Teresa Nielsen Hayden (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/): ...Aaaargh! Did I actually post that in public? How young and irresponsible of me.

[ChunkyC]

*giggle* The Internet has a long memory, doesn't it?

(Hi T ... I hope Mac didn't talk your ear off at LACon ;) )

[aadams73]

I don't think it counts as a lie if the author actually believes it... :)

Then they're just lying to themselves.

[retterson]

One of these days, an author is going to write "the best book ever written" and she's going to believe it and the world is going to believe it, too.

Then for that author, it will be Truth writ large.

We can imagine that it will happen; we hope it might just.

It's the lie that sustains us.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

(Hi T ... I hope Mac didn't talk your ear off at LACon ;) )But what a pleasant way to lose an ear!

That "list of lies" post reads like it ought to be sung to the tune of "The Twelve Days of Christmas":

On day 1 of pre-production,
My publisher did say,
"We'll fix i-it i-in the prooooooofs..."

[James D. Macdonald]

Aaaargh! Did I actually post that in public? How young and irresponsible of me.

Indeed you did, right out in a public newsgroup where the world could see it.


I feel bad for anyone who's heard all four. (I also envy them.)

Heck, I've gotten a fifth, after "We'll fix that in the paperback": "We'll fix that in the next printing."

[Bayou Bill]

Aaaargh! Did I actually post that in public? How young and irresponsible of me.So, are you saying this was written before you became, "the learned Teresa Nielsen Hayden (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/)?" If so, it was a very prescient WAG(wild *** guess).

Bayou Bill :cool:

[DamaNegra]

Reading back, I can't help but ask: Who's Yog?

[KimJo]

On another board at one point, as I understand it, Uncle Jim went by the name "Yog Sysop". There's a logical reason for that name, but I don't know how to spell it.

[Marlowe]

Sounds like a Cthulhu-based Systems Operator to me.

[James D. Macdonald]

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/

[KimJo]

Thanks for the link, Uncle Jim.

[James D. Macdonald]

Today be International Talk Like a Pirate Day (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/). Arrrr, Matey!

A couple o' off-topic things, then an on-topic thing:

Learn CPR at Home (http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3034292) (for $30). I be a big believer in CPR (an' in public-access AEDs -- if yer community dasn't be havin' `em, be seein' if ye can get th' program going).

Chapter Three (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/Mistsnow3.htm) o' Land o' Mist an' Snow (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060819197/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) be now on line. (An' a very nice article in one o' our local weeklies (http://www.colebrookchronicle.com/mainpage.html) last Friday.)

Now th' on-topic thing:

Crawford Kilian has a series o' articles on Writin' a Novel (http://crofsblogs.typepad.com/novel/) that ye might find useful.

[allenparker]

Learn CPR at Home (http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3034292) (for $30). I be a big believer in CPR (an' in public-access AEDs -- if yer community dasn't be havin' `em, be seein' if ye can get th' program going).


I would like to reinforce the above mentioned items.

It is important for everyone to take some courses in CPR, first aid, and etc. I personally have performed CPR dozens of times. If I can do it, anyone can. There have been a few times where I thought my arms would fall off before someone could spell me.

Second, take the course in AED. It is not long or expensive. The machine is not usable without someone to operate it. The instructions are usually clear enough, but knowing what to do in advance is IMPORTANT.

(Sorry, my piratespeak is limited to ordering grog, that is if someone else is paying for it.)

awp

[James D. Macdonald]

CPR an' AED courses (http://www.redcross.org/services/hss/courses/aed.html) be available in lots o' communities. Prices (an' times an' places they's offered) vary: try callin' yer local ambulance squad or hospital t' be seein' when they'll be gi'en an' what they'll cost.

Th' courses range from Free on up, dependin'.

(In our community, me ambulance squad puts a wee kit wi' ever' public-access AED, consisin' o' a ziplock baggie holdin' a pocket CPR facemask, a couple o' pairs o' gloves, a set o' EMT shears, a washcloth, a disposable razor, an' a couple o' alcohol swabs.)

I be seein' CPR work wid me own eyes (that be, a guy down an' dead, subsequently walkin' ou' o' th' hospital wi' nay neuro deficits). `Tis worth 't t' know how t' do that.

(Particularly if ye`re a 50-60 year old female. Ye`re th' one most likely t' witness a cardiac event; th' shipmate sittin' across from ye at th' breakfast table goin' down hard. Ye dasn't want t' be seein' that an' nay know what ter do next.)

While th' modern public-access AEDs be havin' pictures on 'em an' a voice chip in 'em what will talk ye through th' whole procedure, 'tis good t' familiarize yersef wi' them first. Th' number one reason they dasn't work in th' field si th' swabbie operatin' them dasn't take th' pads ou' o' th' package. Th' number two reason be th' swabbie tries t' stick th' pads abroadside o' th' patient`s clothin' rather than on th' patient`s bare chest. If ye`re suddenly faced wi' a Dead Swabbie, things get excitin' in a hurry an' 'tis easy t' get flustered. Havin' had th' machine in yer hand once in a classroom settin' can take away a wee bit o' th' high-pucker-factor that I promise ye're goin' t' feel.


If ye wants ter buy an AED (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=13585) for yer church or home or office, they start around $900 (http://www.aedprofessionals.com/).

[James D. Macdonald]

Here are a couple more links for y'all:

First is to many of the books and movies that we've talked about in Learn Writing (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/UncleJim.html).

Next is to a bunch of books that would be interesting to writers (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/books_for_writers.htm).

All the associate income from sales of these books go to AW (and y'all remember the down-time we had a couple of months ago? Legal fees and such continue....)

[James D. Macdonald]

A reading list for fantasy writers: http://www.worldfantasy.org/awards/

[Cassiopeia]

What sort of helps can a person wishing to write a book, say on the experiences of being LDS and divorced within a large LDS community find?

I was asked years ago after I stopped being LDS to write such a book by a therapist. Is this a self help genre? I have no idea how to begin such an undertaking.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

(Particularly if ye`re a 50-60 year old female. Ye`re th' one most likely t' witness a cardiac event; th' shipmate sittin' across from ye at th' breakfast table goin' down hard. Ye dasn't want t' be seein' that an' nay know what ter do next.)

Me sainted mither always told me tha' the verra next thing a lively wench maun do is call her solicitor aboot the inheriting of the ship, and then see what booty (the dead mate's booty, not the wench's booty) be lyin' aboot in the form of life insurancy documents an' the ilk.

Did ye have aught else in mind, kind sar?

::curtseys deeply, revealing OEC, NSP, and CPR credentials tucked in a next ta' a pair of ... next ta a pair o' me latex gloves, ye' vile old gaffer::

******
Good book list.

I would add this one - Revising fiction: A handbook for writers by David Madden - with the caveat that it is not for the easily frightened. It covers 185 writing flaws your manuscript might have, tidily organized into 8 chapters by type of flaw. I found it useful as a writer and an editor because it put a name to the flaw, and showed how to fix it. Instead of saying "it sounds wrong", I can now say "you are committing the pathetic fallacy" and sound like I know what I'm doing.

And this one - A Writer's Guide to Transitional Words and Expressions
by Victor C. Pellegrino - which is good for writers who have a problem with connecting the phrases so that time, sequence or consequence is clear. There's more to connection than "and then".

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

What sort of helps can a person wishing to write a book, say on the experiences of being LDS and divorced within a large LDS community find?

I was asked years ago after I stopped being LDS to write such a book by a therapist. Is this a self help genre? I have no idea how to begin such an undertaking.

The easiest way to write the first draft of an "experiences" book is chronologically ... just get it all out onto paper in more or less the order it happened. Don't be too concerned with style - just do a brain dump. Your plot already happened.

After you have it on paper, you can decide if the time-based organization works, add explanations of how LDS theology affected events, clean up the grammar, etc. Then you can also decide if it's a "how to cope" book, a personal memoir, or whatever.

But the first critical thing is to just write ... one way to handle something time-based is to open a file in your word processor and set it to "outline" view. Start a bunch of headings: family background, childhood, teenagehood, courtship, marriage, divorce, aftermath, future

As events come to mind, write them as paragraphs in the appropriate section. Learn to collapse and reveal levels of headings and it makes flipping back and forth as you remember events a lot easier. Make notes to yourself about things you need to ask others, or research, as you go. Don't stop writing because you don't a bit of information ... note what you need and keep typing.

When a section gets some material, you may find it easier to add more levels of subheadings and drag the events into things like:

Childhood
Learning to be LDS from others
Grandmother's influence
Teenagerhood
Dating non-LDS members
Dating LDS members
Nothing is permanent ... this is just labelling your events in a bucket so you can find them. If you decide later, after the events are on paper that you want to tell the story from the POV of you, your parents and your ex ... it's easier to do because of the headings.

[Cassiopeia]

Thank you! I had no idea how to even approach this and you are so helpful!

The first obstical I have to overcome however, is, no longer being LDS..ie..I left that religion...is that I have a concern about how the readers will view it. Is it just sour grapes or do I have something they might learn from.

The therapist's comments upon reading some of my journal entries was that I have the ability to reach people with my writing and that I would help a great deal of LDS women who are divorced. So his is a call for me to teach and help.

I am not certain I want to do it. Still something to think about :) At least now I have somewhere to start and who knows, it just might help me to understand the events as well.

Again, my gratitude.

Casi

[James D. Macdonald]

Well, Casi, that sounds like a book you need to write.

First, get everything on paper. Then use novelists' techniques to make it interesting to others.

More than that -- we have a non-fiction section here at AW. You might want to hang out there, too.

------------

Oh. I've just heard that Amazon now allows folks to comment on the reviews posted there.

If I catch anyone from here commenting on reviews on your own book, I will come to your house and mock you in person. ABM, y'know?

[James D. Macdonald]

CPR an' AED courses (http://www.redcross.org/services/hss/courses/aed.html) be available in lots o' communities.

Oh -- funny coincidence. A good friend of mine woke up this morning at about 0130 with a panicky feeling. Yep, he was having a heart attack. (He's fine, in the Cardiac Care Unit right now.) And he's younger than me....

[LeeFlower]

If I catch anyone from here commenting on reviews on your own book, I will come to your house and mock you in person.
I give it two weeks before mocking amazon.com flamefights becomes so much like shooting fish in a barrel that people stop trying: "In today's news, Anne Rice flipped out on Amazon again. Also, the sky is blue."

I'm afraid that if I ever get published, I might be sorely tempted to go and leave "Thank you" notes on positive reviews (assuming of course that there are any). While I imagine that would be less likely to get me mocked than pulling an Anne Rice, it would probably still be a ridiculous waste of time and an all-around bad idea.

[aertep]

Thank you! I had no idea how to even approach this and you are so helpful!

The first obstical I have to overcome however, is, no longer being LDS..ie..I left that religion...is that I have a concern about how the readers will view it. Is it just sour grapes or do I have something they might learn from.

Casi

Casi, I agree, Tsu's post was really generous and helpful.

As for how readers might view what you have to say, you can let that concern be a barrier or choose to forge ahead. Like Jim says, I think you should get it on paper first. It may well be sour grapes, but you still need to write it. Once that's done, you'll know what steps to take.

[Cassiopeia]

Casi, I agree, Tsu's post was really generous and helpful.

As for how readers might view what you have to say, you can let that concern be a barrier or choose to forge ahead. Like Jim says, I think you should get it on paper first. It may well be sour grapes, but you still need to write it. Once that's done, you'll know what steps to take.I wish it were sour grapes. You have no idea how much I do. There is no way for me to convery what just thinking about writing about it does to me. Or maybe you all do. It is one of those things that sometimes you just think would be better if you held funeral services and buried it and let it go. I still have alot of respect for the people who stay in that religion... I am not keen to hurt anyone. So...yeah..will have to think about what all of you said and maybe even just start as a journal entry so I can see how I feel about it.

Thanks a ton you guys :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Remember that the moral of the "sour grapes" story (http://www.pacificnet.net/~johnr/cgi/aesop1.cgi?2&TheFoxandtheGrapes2) was "It is easy to despise what you cannot have."

When a self-published author says "Bookstores are lousy places to sell books," that's "sour grapes."

[aertep]

An excellent writer knows exactly what his words mean. Well said, Uncle Jim. I'm always awed by your research. I never thought to look it up because I thought I knew what it meant, but you put a finer point on it.

[allenparker]

anyone[/I] from here commenting on reviews on your own book, I will come to your house and mock you in person. ABM, y'know?

So, if I wanted you to come for dinner and to entertain the guests, all I have to do is write a fake review for my book and then rant about how awful someone is being to me?

See you Tuesday... Hope you like Blue Cheese Chicken and Beanies and Weenies...

<sorry, I couldn't resist>

[Nangleator]

Perhaps you should serve mock turtle soup?

[aertep]

Wouldn't it be easier to just invite him?

[James D. Macdonald]

From another thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=806104):



There are many, many Muslim terrorists, and not writing about them out of fear of audience reaction is what writing should never be about.


"What's in the slush today?"

"A book about Muslim terrorists, a book about Muslim terrorists, a book about Muslim terrorists, and a book about terrorists who are Muslims."

"Okay, put 'em in the 'Muslim Terrorist' pile."

"Which one?"

"The one that hasn't fallen over yet. What's that in your hand?"

"A book about West Florida Separatist (http://www.answers.com/topic/dominion-of-british-west-florida) terrorists."

"Hey! Is it any good?"

--------------------

Allen, I'll be in Maryland around Thanksgiving. I understand Virginia isn't too far from there? (Blue Cheese Chicken is fine with me.)

[allenparker]

Allen, I'll be in Maryland around Thanksgiving. I understand Virginia isn't too far from there? (Blue Cheese Chicken is fine with me.)

Sorry, I am light years from Frederick, Md. Picking up speed!

But would love to have a cup of coffee with you after the Tums kills the blue cheese and barbecue burn....

[James D. Macdonald]

Mike Ford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_M._Ford) is dead. The world is a poorer place.

It is given to no man to know the day or hour.

[HConn]

If I could be half as smart, witty and knowledgable as Mike Ford, I would be a very lucky man.

And his books are amazing. Very challenging, fun stuff.

[PeeDee]

Mike Ford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_M._Ford) is dead. The world is a poorer place.

It is given to no man to know the day or hour.

I'm still in shock. Did anyone know this was coming? I certainly had no warning. It's kind of knocked the wind out of me today.

[James D. Macdonald]

Mike was in fragile health for a long time. Diabetes, a kidney transplant ... we all knew he was chronically ill. Still, it came as a shock. He'd posted a witty poem just the day before.

While looking for his old posts, I came across this discussion: How Books Sell (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002858.html). Folks who read this thread might find it interesting.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Mike was in fragile health for a long time. Diabetes, a kidney transplant ... we all knew he was chronically ill. Still, it came as a shock. He'd posted a witty poem just the day before.

While looking for his old posts, I came across this discussion: How Books Sell (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002858.html). Folks who read this thread might find it interesting.

I'm in shock as well. Had dinner with him once, long ago, and loved his books...

Such sad news.

[James D. Macdonald]

Mike Ford on Romance (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006306.html), or, See! He agrees with me! I must be right!

The shortish version (and there are much, much longer ones) comes from the division of stories into didaxis, mimesis, and romance -- teaching/instruction, the representation of reality, and idealization. (Or, as I said in another book someplace, lectures, reportage, and lies.) A "romance" in this sense is an idealized story, rather than a "realistic" one. It comes from an earlier usage, meaning stories told in the vernacular (the "romance languages") rather than Latin. Most of those vernacular stories were, well, pulp yarns. Amadis de Gaul, Alonso Quejana's version of the Jack Ryan series, was in the language of everybody who could read.

[PeeDee]

I knew this poem was around here somewhere. This was always one of my favorite Mike Ford works. The man was a remarkable talent.

The Final Connection (http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/2003/12/lovers-dreamers-and-death.asp)

[aertep]

At the link Pete gives, there's another link to this, which is also marvelous, sad and eloquent:
http://nielsenhayden.com/110.html

[Theo Neel]

Most of those vernacular stories were, well, pulp yarns. Amadis de Gaul, Alonso Quejana's version of the Jack Ryan series, was in the language of everybody who could read.
[/INDENT]


When Jack Ryan became president, it bumped the whole series of Jack Ryan novels
up (or down?) from "romance" to "Harlequin Romance."

[BardSkye]

Harlequin's style might not be for everyone, but you have to admit they know their market. Their readers want a certain formula and that's exactly what Harlequin gives them.

I don't think I could even hazard a guess at how many books they sell world-wide in a year.

[san_remo_ave]

Bardskye,

I agree, Harlequin is a master at marketing.

According to their website, Harlequin Enterprises Ltd sold 131 million books in 2005 (5.22 billlion since it's inception). Harlequin titles have also appeared on the NYT bestseller lists for 188 weeks in 2005.

Them's alot of books.

[Theo Neel]

Without a doubt, there's a lot to be said for companies that produce saleable product and that's what Harlequin does.

Just as Clancy's books are so much product for Jack Ryan fans -- predictable and formulaic, but the fans love 'em. When the fans loved them, they sell best.

[spike]

Ok, I finished reading the thread. Yes, every post.

I did the assignments.

Now I'm just doing the BIC-thing.

Thank you Uncle Jim, and everyone else.

[James D. Macdonald]

There is no one as selfish as a reader standing in front of a shelf in a bookstore.

[James D. Macdonald]

I did the assignments.

Good job! Let us know when you send that novel out the door.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm off to Martha's Vineyard in the morning. Keep the thread warm for me while I'm away....

[Cassiopeia]

I'm off to Martha's Vineyard in the morning. Keep the thread warm for me while I'm away....Enjoy the fall colors and have a safe trip James :)

[SeanDSchaffer]

I'm off to Martha's Vineyard in the morning. Keep the thread warm for me while I'm away....


Have a safe trip, Uncle Jim....and I hope you have a fun time.

[Nangleator]

It's a beautiful but chilly day in Massachusetts. The most sensitive leaves are starting to change color. The Vineyard and the ferry ride there will be beautiful and bracing.

Have a mulled cider, if you can, UJ, and a great time!

[DamaNegra]

Ok, I realize now I have a problem with subplots. How do I create them? Why are they useful? Why should I include them?

[Nangleator]

Excellent question. I view them as a means of changing the reader's focus in order to:

1) Skip over boring bits of the main character's timeline;

or

2) Build tension by creating a cliff hanger situation. (Cliff hangers at the end of chapters build tension only for as long as it takes to turn the page.)

[ProsperitySue]

I think that's a good question, too, and am looking forward to UJ's response.

I don't see them as much in short novels, but in longer ones you can have minor characters in a subplot seeing and doing things that the main characters wouldn't do. In a novel with humor, a subplot can have a humorous thread that I look forward to.

Sometimes a minor character in a subplot offers so much that they appear as the main character in other books. I've known cases where the readers wrote and asked for them to have their own story.

I think in a series there can be an agency, planet or federation that offers a subplot and provides a familiar background for whatever action the main characters get involved in.

Unfortunately, I can't offer advice on writing them. I'm BIC, but floundering -- doing much better at reading than writing at this point, but I'm having fun with it. I'd like to hear how it goes with you as you develop this skill.

[Nangleator]

Another use of subplots:

I had a mystery for my MC to solve, and various minor characters unearthed clues in their subplots. Later on, the MC interacted with these characters, and collected these clues to solve the mystery.

[James D. Macdonald]

If you don't have subplots, what you have is a short story.

Subplots add depth and richness to your novel by comparing, contrasting, and supporting the theme.

Think of counterpoint and harmonies in music. Those are subplots.

[DamaNegra]

Thanks for the feedback!

Now, let's pretend I can't hold more than 1 storyline in my head as I'm writing. And let's pretend I'm so stubborn decide to include 3 subplots in my novel. How do I keep track of them? How do I write them into the novel?

And antother question. Subplots are rigidly for supporting characters or can the MC take part in them?

[Liam Jackson]

Dama, Jim's Celtic Knot is a great model for designing and tracking the flow of intertwining plots. Another useful device is a simple Excel spread sheet.

Subplots need not be terribly complicated or convoluted. In fact, they can be used to simply add depth to a MC.

This may be a cheesy example, but it's an example, nonetheless.
Your MC is trying to save the world by tracking down a bad guy who possesses a deadly mutated virus. However, she has a real prick for an ex-husband to contend with. The guy has trumped up a number of phoney harrassment charges, and now the local authorities are searching for our heroine, to jail her on a series of misdemeanor warrants. Meanwhile, the wingnut ex-husband has taken the couple's only child from the home of our heroine's mom (who was babysitting) and plans to leave the state. So our heroine...

In short, just because the MC has the main plot to contend with, other facets of her life do not cease to exist or willingly place themselves on hold. Deciding where to interject those other elements is just a matter of timing motivation. Jim's model is a good place to start.

[DamaNegra]

In short, just because the MC has the main plot to contend with, other facets of her life do not cease to exist or willing place themselves on hold.

Aha! You nailed it! Thanks! :) That was exactly my problem all along!

Although I'd had a heart attack if I had to create something like this (http://www.stamplandchicago.com/catalog/graphics/celtic-knot-5701-26.jpg)!

[aertep]

I find what Jim said about supporting the theme to be so meaningful.

A basic example would be a theme of romance, where a main character is in search of it. As the MC goes about her quest for Mr. Right, her best friend picks up losers in bars. Her pal at work is engaged to a rich guy who's crazy about her. The MC's parents are in the process of a divorce. But the MC can visit her grandparents for lunch; they've been together for fifty years. She learns from all the examples around her. Etc.

A little obvious and simple, but variations on a theme.

I'm also reminded of the adage which I'll now misquote (someone will tell us who said it): put your character up a tree and throw rocks at him.

What Liam added, then, illustrates a way to include subplots--not just as stuff thrown in, but as rocks thrown at your character once he or she is up the three. Your subplot doesn't have to be, but can be, your character's hurdles/rocks/stumbling blocks.

[AnneMarble]

Oh. I've just heard that Amazon now allows folks to comment on the reviews posted there.
I can't wait for the comment wars to start. :( OTOH I can see where it would be useful for readers (:D) to point out errors in a review, etc.

If I catch anyone from here commenting on reviews on your own book, I will come to your house and mock you in person. ABM, y'know?
What about authors who respond to reviews about their friends' books? On some romance blogs, I recently saw posts by authors who admitted that they realized responding to a review of their own book is a bad idea. But they had no problems about responding to negative reviews of their friends' books. Unless they are correction errors or something like that (and maybe not even then), are they really doing their friends any favors by doing this? Especially these days, where one little line by an author can end up being held up for ridicule on dozens of reader blogs.
:Shrug:

[James D. Macdonald]

Replying to reviews is always problematical. I'd avoid doing it. If you must, write a review of your own.

[JohnLynch]

Well been a while since I last posted here. But if at first you don't suceed, go on a hiatus then try again ;)

I went through the last few posts and saw the last challenge was to write a plan that happened before Plan Nine of Plan Nine from Outer Space fame. So here's mine:

Plan One from Outer Space

Idea
The plan was created by Agency 13 within the Mars Union to establish a colony on one of Jupiter's many moons. This new colony is to act as a training ground for a powerful military force for any upcoming threats that the union may face. Unfortunately Agency 13 lost all contact with the colony 6 months ago.

First 100 words
The cart was mostly silent, except for the teenagers a few seats behind him. He had tried reading today's newspaper on the screen in front of him, but their chatter kept interrupting him. Someone had attempted to blow up the water pumps in Galle once more. The Homeland Unionists were being blamed once again. Mahavir was wondering if they even existed when the kids jostled past him. Finally, some peace and quiet.

Outside the sparse red sands gave way to the dark tunnel of the train station. Mahavir wondered where the teenagers were going, did they all live nearby? Not much to do in Herod station and no trains connected for them to be going anywhere but back to Aban. Had he heard them talking about some party tonight? They were annoying.

The train started moving once more. Mahavir's stop was next. Then it was only a small taxi ride to home. Laryssa was nagging him again. She was desperate for them to move off the farm and into Aban, closer to work. Closer to civilization. But his brother Bala had given his life to make the home. Besides, Mahavir liked the solitude.

After the taxi ride, Mahavir hopped paid the cab and hopped out. He went through the airlocks before opening the outside lock for the taxi to leave. He turned around and immediately knew something was wrong. The front door was left ajar. "Larys? You there Laryssa?" Of course she was, she would have called if she was going anywhere. Besides, where would she have gone? He slowly stepped into the kitchen. On the floor was a trail of blood leading into the pantry.

Last Line
Mahavir looked out the window of the shuttle down at the moon. Should be the last time he ever saw it again. Good.

Not terribly original, but it doesn't need to be original, it needs to be finished.

[James D. Macdonald]

Bravo!

[Forbidden Snowflake]

The subplots are my main problem at the moment.
I usually end up with more or less terrific ideas for my hero and sidekicks, have it all worked out, backgroundstory, twist, everything and then I start writing and I'm all excited.
Missing a real story though, something that is actually going on next to that bone I have, some flesh, I just write and then find myself done after 15 pages and the story is gone.

I just don't manage to add flesh, I get stuck on it.

[James D. Macdonald]

Snowflake, it might be time for you to read closely and analyse some of your favorite books to see how those authors did it.

[Sesselja]

Although I'd had a heart attack if I had to create something like this (http://www.stamplandchicago.com/catalog/graphics/celtic-knot-5701-26.jpg)!

You don't have to make it as complicated as that one. For my current project, I use 3 strings braided together as the design for the structure of the novel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Braid_final_rot.jpg

Each string is a plot/subplot: The red is the main character's search for love, the blue is her struggle with her mother, and the black is her best friend's struggle with her family situation. It's the first time I have used such a visual design for a story structure, but it has helped me organise all the material in my head.

[Forbidden Snowflake]

Snowflake, it might be time for you to read closely and analyse some of your favorite books to see how those authors did it.

I am trying to do that. It's helping a lot.

[James D. Macdonald]

Woo! Viable Paradise (http://www.viableparadise.com) is winding down. Next year!

[Nangleator]

Congrats! Wish I had been there.

[K_Woods]

Darn, I don't think I'm going to be in shape for submitting for the '07 workshop...of course, there's the matter of cost, too. It sounds like a blast.

I do have a question regarding pseudonyms, though, which I don't recall seeing in the archive: I recall reading somewhere (Miss Snark, maybe?) that an author using any name other than their legal one (as a first-timer, that is) stands out as a red flag, the reasoning being that if you aren't confident enough to be published under your legal name, why should anyone publish you under a pseudonym? (I may be getting the reasoning tangled here, it's been a while since I read it.)

In my case, I don't really want to use a pseudonym, per se, but my maiden name. It's silly, maybe, but artistically I identify myself with the name my parents gave me. On the other hand, if it's just going to stack the deck against me, it's probably not worth it.

I'm really hoping I either misread things or am very confused on the matter, but I figured best to ask a professional.

[DamaNegra]

As Jim has said, pseudonyms can be a way from diferentiating different genres, so K Woods would write horror but if you wanted to write romance, you could do it under the name of J Brady so no one will get confused.

The agent thing is not true, what Miss Snark said is that you needed to approach the agent with your real name and THEN tell her about your desire for a pseudonym. Of course, all legal papers have to be signed under your legal name.

[James D. Macdonald]

Our friend Sherwood Smith has been publishing under that name since her first book. This isn't in any way even close to her legal name.

Without having read Miss Snark's remark I can't say anything about her specific issue. In my own experience, the name on the cover of the book is a matter between you and the publisher.

[K_Woods]

As Jim has said, pseudonyms can be a way from diferentiating different genres, so K Woods would write horror but if you wanted to write romance, you could do it under the name of J Brady so no one will get confused.

The agent thing is not true, what Miss Snark said is that you needed to approach the agent with your real name and THEN tell her about your desire for a pseudonym. Of course, all legal papers have to be signed under your legal name.

Aha, so it was just a bit of confusion on my part. I feel better now. (Though I don't plan on traipsing down the horror path, heheh.)

Thanks for the answers, both of you!

[Ken Schneider]

If you become famous from your writing, a pseudonym isn't going to hide your identity. Someone from your home town will let the cat out of the bag.

Steven King wrote books under a pseudonym, a few, but he isn't hiding, now.

Isn't that what a pseudonym is all about, trying to hide behind a name that you can't be identified by in the phone book.

UJ and Doyle have many books, and will tell you their name is in the phone book.

I do understand the idea for different genres. If you broke into the writing game doing YA books, or children's, and are still doing YA, and want to write erotica....

I guess one needs to figure out why they'd want to use a fake name to start with.

I'll tell you this, it has nothing to do with the glamour of writing, or is a prerequisite for being a novelist.

[Theo Neel]

Pseudonyms are a matter of choice and motivated by many things.

Some authors write in different genres and use pen names in each different one.

Some authors use pen names for privacy. There's an awful lot of information available on the internet. Increasingly, it's easier and easier to find out where people live.

Some authors use pen names because their given name is too close to another author's. Some use pen names because their given name is too hard for the average bear to remember, to spell or to say. The latter has to be balanced with the fact that unusual names are memorable on a wholly different level.

At the end of the day, it's up to you.

[DamaNegra]

I do understand the idea for different genres. If you broke into the writing game doing YA books, or children's, and are still doing YA, and want to write erotica....

Hell would break loose among parents :D

Isn't that what a pseudonym is all about, trying to hide behind a name that you can't be identified by in the phone book.

Not really. If you think your name is too boring, too hard to remember, impossible to pronounce or you're plain bored with it and want to be someone else, you use a pseudonym. Me? I already have 2 pseudonyms: one is just my second name and second last name, and the other is my given Arab name plus a made-up last name.

The first pseudonym I'll use when writing romance. The second, I'm not sure if I'm going to use it but it sounds pretty cool :D

[K_Woods]

In my case, it's a matter of identity -- it's the name I went by for the first twenty-three years of my life, and I've gotten attached to it. I might be my husband's wife, but I'm also my mom and dad's daughter. I was fine with changing my name when I got married, since I told my husband (and he accepted) that any art and writing projects would be under my maiden name.

But enough of that. First, I need to get some work out there, and to do that I need to work. I'm looking forward to using NaNo as a test to see exactly how much BIC time I can squeeze in. So far, though, impatience is spilling over and so I've got several other projects on the burners that I'm trying to tend to. It's not easy -- I have a six month old, and right now he's got a teething-and-cold doubleheader.

Uncle Jim -- or anyone else -- do you have recommendations for trying to squeeze writing time in between domestic demands, other than just winging it? (Evenings are better than mornings, but I shouldn't be cutting into my sleep like that. It takes me long enough to fall asleep as it is, and my morning starts when my son wakes up.)

[HConn]

K, the only way to get time is to steal it from other things. If your family can get used to a slightly-dirtier house, they should do so.

[blacbird]

If your family can get used to a slightly-dirtier house, they should do so.

Expect strife.

caw.

[Cassiopeia]

K, the only way to get time is to steal it from other things. If your family can get used to a slightly-dirtier house, they should do so.Perhaps learning creative solutions for delegating would help. I have a class right now called Creative Problems Solving and it is amazing how helpful it is to find different solutions to the problem. While you may get some resistance perhaps delegating chores to other family members might be a viable solution. Even telling them they will be paid X amount of dollars for their cooperation if necessary or pay one person to be responsible for seeing the work gets done.

[Milton]

do you have recommendations for trying to squeeze writing time in between domestic demands, other than just winging it? (Evenings are better than mornings, but I shouldn't be cutting into my sleep like that. It takes me long enough to fall asleep as it is, and my morning starts when my son wakes up.)
I've just discovered something that works for me: a mini-BIC approach. I make miniature notebooks by folding a regular sheet of paper three times, so the final page size is 1/8th sheet. Staple the final fold, and cut the pages open. If I write fairly small, I get about 75 words per page. One page per hour for most of the day comes to 750 words, three full pages -- and it doesn't seem like I've spent any time at all on it. I can always drive my way to the end of that tiny page, even if I think I'm producing junk.

Of course, others have used index cards for the same effect. (Didn't Jane Austen do something like that?)

--Milton

[K_Woods]

HConn - I already have trouble keeping things up, and nicking time from housekeeping is liable to drive both me and my husband bonkers.

Casi - Delegation would be great...if my son was about six years older. (He might be crawling early, but chores are a bit advanced yet!) I might be able to squeeze some help from the husband on the weekends, but not during the week, on account of his schedule.

(The idea of paying him reminds me of the bribery scene in The Naked Gun, though it wouldn't be possible to end up with more money than we started with. It'd be nice if we could, though!)

Milton - The minibook/notecard idea might work -- thing is, my best time for that is during my son's naps, and I tend to nap with him. Also, if he's awake, he goes after any paper product he can find -- newsprint, cardboard, and ESPECIALLY books! I've tried using a composition book, but it's not been working too well. Notecards, on the other hand, might be less intimidating.

So far I've been nabbing what time I can, and I keep my computer on during the day so I can jot something down in RoughDraft, even if it's only a couple of lines.

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm going to make this work, the question is how...

[James D. Macdonald]

Naptime worked for me in the day.

Also, kid on lap, typing around him.

[Theo Neel]

K,

Try thinking about the two elements of writing/storytelling. Part of writing is actually writing (BIC). But a big part of writing is intellectual. I'm talking about the part of writing that goes on in your head. Don't discount the amount of effort you spend thinking about your story. Seize time to think about your story whenever you have it.

In fact, talking out loud can be very helpful in clarifying your thoughts so that when you do get precious keyboard time, you're not wasting it staring at a blank screen. (Talking out loud helps your brain process creativity -- a left brain/right brain kind of thing.)

Try a headset with microphone and digital recorder for time in the car and while doing chores. Keep a pad and pencil in the bathroom (to capture shower thoughts). Remember that stories don't necessarily get written sequentially, so you can capture a lot of ideas, dialogue, scenes, etc. during times away from the keyboard -- so that when you are at the keyboard, you're writing with maximum efficiency.

[aertep]

K,

When I was a kid, my mother wrote her masters thesis, which was published as a book of literary criticism on John Updike's early works (http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/top3mset/1696dac8c71b6e26.html). She had to read those works, study them, know them and understand them before she could even think of writing about them.

She had four kids, and a husband who didn't do housework. We kids were older than yours is, and we could help with chores. But honestly, I still don't know how she managed. One thing I recall is that she got up early. I think most of the family got up around 7:00; mother got up at 5:00, went into the den and closed the door. Those two hours were hers.

I'm not saying you should do this. I'm not sure I could. But maybe if it was my only option, I'd manage it. Or maybe my mother was nuts. But she achieved something she was proud of. (I'm proud of her, too.)

[Cassiopeia]

K,

When I was a kid, my mother wrote her masters thesis, which was published as a book of literary criticism on John Updike's early works (http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/top3mset/1696dac8c71b6e26.html). She had to read those works, study them, know them and understand them before she could even think of writing about them.

She had four kids, and a husband who didn't do housework. We kids were older than yours is, and we could help with chores. But honestly, I still don't know how she managed. One thing I recall is that she got up early. I think most of the family got up around 7:00; mother got up at 5:00, went into the den and closed the door. Those two hours were hers.

I'm not saying you should do this. I'm not sure I could. But maybe if it was my only option, I'd manage it. Or maybe my mother was nuts. But she achieved something she was proud of. (I'm proud of her, too.)I think setting aside the time to write is a must. Even if it means that you get up at 5 am or write from 10pm till midnight. A person does what they need to. There is no set rule but one should be willing to set it as a priority.

[James D. Macdonald]

No one needs TV.

[K1P1]

I have to say, been there, done that. All of this is good advice and it's really the only way to manage to write around small children and family responsibilities. The problem is that some people aren't able to write in every spare 15 minutes. Depending on what I'm writing, I find that longer periods of time in which to concentrate are really required. For example, if I'm writing straightforward non-fiction where I really know my subject, I can sit down and write a section, based on my outline, and interruptions don't really matter.

On the otherhand, if I'm working on creating a character, or developing a complex plot, the interruptions drive me crazy because I have to start over.

And then, there's the fatigue factor. If you are a mother with small children, you're tired. Trying to write after they're in bed at night just doesn't work. The solution is to go to bed when they do (if you are lucky enough to have the kind of child who goes to bed before 9--not like me!), then get up at 3 or 4 in the morning and write until you just can't think anymore. Of course, you'll never see your spouse...

P.S. Just keep in mind that things will change--constantly. Unfortunately, you're probably looking at the worst period at 18-30 months, when your child can go anywhere, climb anything, and doesn't have a lick of sense. See if you can find a child in your neighborhood who's interested in being a "babysitter-in-training." Kids can do this from 10 years and up. Pay a very small amount per hour for an older kid who likes babies and toddlers to play with yours.

[MidnightMuse]

No one needs TV.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Oh, wait, you're serious . . .

[Nexusman]

No one needs TV.

I used to install cable TV. You have no idea how right you are. I was doing an install at one house where the lady was very rude and said right off the bat "You wouldn't believe how bored I've been waiting for you. I don't have anything to do!" I pointed to a stocked bookshelf and said "Then what are those for?"

I still watch the box, but only for shows I like, not to channel surf. It's impossible to write with it on.

-Nick

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Since the Celtic Knot Method of Subplotting has come back up, I was wondering if maybe I could entice Uncle Jim and others to expand upon that a little. I'm not entirely getting how this is used, but I want to, because I love drawing the darn things and their neat over-under-over-under construction makes the patterning part of my type-A soul, the part that also likes sudoku and quadratic equation matrices, just glow.

So one-a-y'all mentioned using a simple three-string braid, where each string is a different subplot. What do you consider the string crossings to be? Is it pretty much just that when the black string is on top, it's time to have a scene that highlights that subplot? Or do you also concern yourself with which string it's crossing over at the time (time to have a Best Friend's Struggle scene and specifically show it intersecting with Main Character's Love Life)? Do you attach any significance to which side of the braid the crossing is occuring on? Does using a regular pattern like a braid ever cause the appearance of subplot material to become too predictable?

Yes, I am quite definitely overthinking this. You can stop me at any time. I'm just really curious to know more about how the Celtic Knot method works for y'all that use it, and how you go about it. My own novel is a bit too well-developed in my head to get totally redrawn this way, but it could benefit from my using different methods to rethink the causality details in it. Workshopping definitely pointed out that a certain amount of causality, or consequentiality, or one-thing-leads-to-anotherness was missing from my synopsis, that's for true.

[James D. Macdonald]

Rather than subplot, when I use these I work with theme and characters. Thus, it's time for a scene with Randy, and the theme will be Honor.

It helps move things along, shows your progress, and provides inspiration for what the next scene will be. And, it's pretty.

[FennelGiraffe]

Yet another newbie here. I've just finished (pant, pant) reading this thread from the beginning (gasp, wheeze), and the first thing I need to say is Thank You, Thank You, Thank You.

There were at least a dozen times I was sorely tempted to reply to long-passed discussions. Although I successfully resisted those temptations, I bookmarked one to follow up. Since Celtic knotwork is being discussed again, it's conveniently apropos. Post #3553 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=166299&postcount=3553) included this comment:
The reason I picked the shape I did is that the first 1/3 of the book has two parallel plots in two different settings - so, I don't think I can put interlacings there since the two groups of characters never see or talk to each other. But now, Uncle Jim, you say: Rather than subplot, when I use these I work with theme and characters. Thus, it's time for a scene with Randy, and the theme will be Honor. Now I'm really confused. I did understand the part about the strand on top showing where the focus should go. But I also thought that where the strands crossed was saying something about where subplots should be connected. My original question was going to be about other ways to connect when it wasn't possible to have characters from one strand actually appear in another. But now it seems that was never what you meant?

[K_Woods]

And then, there's the fatigue factor. If you are a mother with small children, you're tired. Trying to write after they're in bed at night just doesn't work. The solution is to go to bed when they do (if you are lucky enough to have the kind of child who goes to bed before 9--not like me!), then get up at 3 or 4 in the morning and write until you just can't think anymore. Of course, you'll never see your spouse...
My husband gets home at 3 or 4 in the morning! I barely see him anyway! (Well, he also has a compressed workweek, which means more weekend time. It's not all bad.)

And..."morning" and "think" in the same sentence? Aha, you must be one of those crazy morning people! (I kid.) I might be able to squeak 5 AM, if I fall asleep immediately when the baby does (I am lucky that my son typically tanks out around 9 PM, though I suspect that's the price of him waking at 7), but I don't do well on eight hours even though I can (nominally) function. I do best on nine to ten, not that I often get that anymore.

P.S. Just keep in mind that things will change--constantly. Unfortunately, you're probably looking at the worst period at 18-30 months, when your child can go anywhere, climb anything, and doesn't have a lick of sense. See if you can find a child in your neighborhood who's interested in being a "babysitter-in-training." Kids can do this from 10 years and up. Pay a very small amount per hour for an older kid who likes babies and toddlers to play with yours.

My son is already circumnavigating the ground floor, and he hits six months tomorrow! :eek: (That reminds me, must take composition notebook with to doctor's office today.) I'm bracing myself for a nine-month walker, and the possibility of ADHD -- I don't know how much heredity can play a role, but my brother had it (he grew out of the 'hyperactive' part). The little one already does his best to make it impossible to type with him in my lap.

There are a lot of kids around here, especially for a 700-ish town. I should look into that. (There was a girl next door who watched my son when I came for the house inspection, but they moved. Rats!)

Uncle Jim's right about the TV thing. Mostly. Last week there was a chemical fire about four miles from my parents' home, halfway across the country. This apparently made national news. However, since I don't typically watch the news, I didn't hear about this until I called home, and my mom asked if I'd called because of the fire. (They were upwind and thus outside of the evacuation zone.) Oops.

That, and I'm not giving up Monty Python's Flying Circus on Saturday nights -- at least, not as long as they're showing episodes I haven't seen. ;)

Thank all of you again for your suggestions.

[James D. Macdonald]

But I also thought that where the strands crossed was saying something about where subplots should be connected.

It can be anything you want it to be. Theme can also connect. One can be brought to the forefront.

I'm sorry that that isn't clear -- it's an ideosyncratic method of my own.

[James D. Macdonald]

Speaking of chemical fires and such, it's time for me to plug by Jump Kit (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/emerg_kit.htm) page.

[Sarashay]

In fact, talking out loud can be very helpful in clarifying your thoughts so that when you do get precious keyboard time, you're not wasting it staring at a blank screen. (Talking out loud helps your brain process creativity -- a left brain/right brain kind of thing.)

*light bulb goes off*

Hey, I suddenly have a great idea for what to do during my daily commute. Thanks!

[James D. Macdonald]

Talking to yourself also gets you a seat to yourself on the bus/subway....

[Sarashay]

Well, if I wanted to do that and not be too conspicuous, I could always put a cell phone up to my ear. Though people might still wonder what the hell I'm talking about.

Actually, I drive to and from work. And since I have no shame about shaking my head about to a really good song on the radio while behind the wheel, talking to myself should hardly be a problem. ;)

[Theo Neel]

Well, if I wanted to do that and not be too conspicuous, I could always put a cell phone up to my ear.
Actually, I drive to and from work.

No need for a cell phone. Just use a headset with a boom microphone. Folks will think that you're talking on a cell phone. Most digital recorders actually use cell phone headsets.

[Jennifer Robins]

In picking a genre what would you think about Astral-travel. It is not something made up, it is a very real thing that does in fact happen to people. Even though the story may be fiction, the subject is real. I was thinking more like suspense, or horror if the story is suspense and scary, if there was no other choices, but not science fiction. Do you think this is right?

Jennifer

[BardSkye]

Talking to yourself also gets you a seat to yourself on the bus/subway....

As does trying to read Terry Pratchitt. People think you're dying a cruel death as you snort, turn red, giggle, laugh so hard you cry...

[Delarege]

Never felt so stupid. I think I swapped the covering letters in my query to two agents. Found out about it when I got a sorry no luck, reply from Agent #1: "NB: Your letter was addressed to Agent #2, instead of Agent #1."

:cry:

Has anybody here ever done anything like that?

- Paritosh

Look at the bright side. They probably noticed right off and never bothered to READ anything. So! Wait long enough for them to lose your name from their minds (likely 15 minutes but I'd give it a month or two) and then send it properly. The odds of getting anything saying, "Hey, aren't you the guy that botched those two queries?" is pretty slim. In the least they will disregard you which is no worse than you writing them off.

[Theo Neel]

So far, I understand the notion that, as far as exposition goes, one should not tell the reader anything he/she doesn't WANT to know.

But if you think the reader ought to know it (to enrich his/her reading) -- what do you do? Do you work really hard to make it more palatable -- do you consciously aim to craft the story so that the reader wants to know that nugget?

[aertep]

I'd say it's more NEED to know. What does everyone else think?

[Theo Neel]

I recently read an article featuring Teresa Nielsen Hayden that suggests that it's WANT.

(I'm not sure if that aspect is attributable to her or the other participants, though.)

[HConn]

... do you consciously aim to craft the story so that the reader wants to know that nugget?

Yes.

[jdparadise]

One trick to good writing, IMO, is...

[Theo Neel]

Yes.


Okay, I bite.

How?

[HConn]

Okay, I bite.

How?

Did you ever watch the original TERMINATOR? The movie starts off with lots of weird stuff happening: people appearing out of nowhere, two guys hunting for women with a specific name, the woman they're after living her humdrum life, oblivious to the danger she's in.

Then, once the two men meet and fight, one shoots the other full in the chest, and the guy gets up again.

Only after the character shrugs off deadly gunshot wounds do we get a glimpse of the Terminator-cam. That tells us we're dealing with some sort of machine, but why is it after this woman? Where did it come from? What the heck is going on?

Only then does Reese explain to Sarah Conner what is going on. And all the explanations are mixed in with action scenes.

So, first they showed us some interesting things that were not readily explained. Then they introduced us to characters who invest in. Then more strange things begin to happen, but what explanation we get comes in small doses until we're curious enough to want one character to sit down with another and explain it all (while we evesdrop).

And it doesn't have to be all robots and gunfighting, either. That's the genre I chose because I'm a big nerd. You can also start off with something more down to earth: A pleasant, loving housewife makes breakfast for her family, sees her husband off to work and takes her kids to school, then on the way home she buys six eggplants, mounts them on stakes in her front yard, then drives her car downtown and crashes it through the front window of a JC Penny's, killing herself and two others.

What happened? Why?

If you show us something that's not the same-ole same-ole ("Hey, a Dark Power has Risen in the South--let's go on a quest!" "Did you hear? Someone's killed the vicar!" "I know about you and your secretary, Bob! How could you?!") and give us characters to care invest in, we'll hang around to find out What the heck is going on?

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

It can be anything you want it to be. Theme can also connect. One can be brought to the forefront.

I'm sorry that that isn't clear -- it's an ideosyncratic method of my own.Fair enough. When I came across it in the thread the first time it resonated for me, possibly because it's pretty, possibly because it's patterned. I followed the links to the Drawing Celtic Knots instructions and understood just enough of them to get obsessed with drawing them for the next two weeks (http://comicollage.comicgenesis.com/d/20050219.html) (does double-take at date on comic, realizes how long it's been, sighs deeply). I guess i'll just have to play with it some more until it becomes less cat-waxing and more plot-prep.

Theo Neel, I believe the word you're looking for is "gotta." ;)

[James D. Macdonald]

Don't tell the readers anything until they care.

[Delarege]

Don't tell the readers anything until they care.

How can a reader care if they don't know anything?

[HConn]

Words are information. Every word on the page tells the reader something. It's up to you (and all of us) to choose the words that will give enough information to make them curious.

[allenparker]

Words are information. Every word on the page tells the reader something. It's up to you (and all of us) to choose the words that will give enough information to make them curious.

"So, the balancing act is to choose a word or phrase that intrigues the reader without giving the reader a sense that she knows everything and need not read any more?" he asked with fear and trembling.

It sounds so simple. Like riding a tidal wave. Just stay on top of it.

[pdr]

JMc meant that if your readers like and cheer for the characters then they will care to know what is going to happen to them.

[aertep]

JMc meant that if your readers like and cheer for the characters then they will care to know what is going to happen to them.

Makes sense. Give them information as they need it, want it, care to have it, rather than info-dumping it at the top. Kind of like a slow I.V. drip instead of a force-feed.

[BardSkye]

It's just so difficult to get that fire-hose of info to feed into an IV drip. :cry:

I'm one of those who has problems with info-dumps, but I'm working on it.

[James D. Macdonald]

If the readers don't care, they won't remember a word you've said.

[aertep]

If the readers don't care, they won't remember a word you've said.

Or bother to read it, for that matter.

[Nangleator]

I'm one of those who has problems with info-dumps, but I'm working on it.
By all means let the fire hose flow freely -- in the first draft!

You'll have some baling out to do when you edit, but at least you will have taught yourself a lot more about the world you are building.

[Theo Neel]

Right. It all boils down to getting the reader to care. I suppose that's the Art part.

[EvilLurks]

I've lurked for a few weeks while reading the entire thread. Thanks for all the thought and time that has gone into it.

I have a question about genre writing vs. literary fiction. I believe there is a difference that goes beyond marketing, merely placement of the book on the shelf from which it will sell best. Assuming that Plot, Character, and Theme are the three legs on which a book stands, I contend that most genre writing differs substantially from literary writing.

As an example, consider a best-selling thriller, that Dan Brown book. For Plot there is the form: and then, and then, and then, info dump, and then—times 50. It is procedural, like most thrillers are. For Characters we have the likes of an albino monk assassin—please. And for Theme we have, well no theme, just an idea, daddy Jesus. There is a difference between theme and idea.

Now consider the Booker Prize winning “The Blind Assassin” by Margaret Atwood. There is very little plot, and what plot there is happens “off camera” so to speak—that is, is mostly alluded to. Or the plot is told, not shown, with the device of fake newspaper articles. Character is the book’s strength. All of the main characters are complex, unique, and necessary. And there are several Themes throughout the book, loyalty and duty being two of the biggest.

Each book was a great success, one commercially, the other critically, but they are almost opposites as far as construction, pace, voice, style, as well as Plot, Character, and Theme. So the question is, finally, UJ in your experience as a writer, and specifically a genre writer (from what shelves I find your work on), do you see a significant difference between genre and literary writing? I don’t mean to subvert your guidelines as to Plot, Character, and Theme, but to say that they are often applied differently between the two. I personally feel a huge difference in my writing as I try to apply genre elements to my otherwise literary book to make it more saleable.

[Ken Schneider]

How can a reader care if they don't know anything?


Because you've endeared them to your characters.

You've made your characters become real in the reader's mind.

The readers have their own thoughts, hopes, and dreams, of what may happen to the characters, good and bad alike.

Four year old Jimmy huddled under the railroad trestle as a cold, wind driven rain bit at him. Tears rolled down his cheeks. He was lost.

Care what happens to Jimmy?

If I expand on Jimmy's plight, take you back to how he was lost, circumstances, his life before becoming lost.

In this scenario their are a thousand ways I can endear Jimmy to the reader to make them care.

That's the writer's job.

Writers make up a story with creative imagination and put it on paper, just like readers imagine about what may happen next.

[jpserra]

If the readers don't care, they won't remember a word you've said.

Immanent Sage,

It is more fundamental than that. The writer must care! Enthusiasm and investment are two different sides of the coin. I know lots of enthusiastic writers who don't understand that the investment in the craft means detailing as you go along. In writing, motive does have a place, unlike the necessity in real life crime.

JPS

[aertep]

Just picked up Donald Maass's Writing the Breakout Novel. In the forward, Anne Perry says:
"Sometimes I am asked, 'Is it true you should write what you know about?' I say, 'No, write what you care about. If you don't know, you'll find out. But if you don't care, why should anyone else?'"

[janetbellinger]

That's exactly how I feel.

[James D. Macdonald]

May I again recommend Henning Nelms' Magic and Showmanship (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486410870/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/)? Many of your questions about getting the reader to care will become clear when you read that book.

Dan Brown's book is a poor example -- it's a thriller, true, but it's also a fad based on American anti-Catholicism. Its faults (lousy plotting, lousy writing) have been widely commented on in many venues.

If I wanted to package Margaret Atwood's book as science fiction, I could. The difference would be in the cover painting, in the back-cover blurb, and the logo on the spine.

[James D. Macdonald]

Let's talk about Getting the Reader to Care:

Time to play the analysis game. This time, a classic work. Best seller, multiple editions ....

CHAPTER I.

Say, ye oppressed by some fantastic woes,
Some jarring nerve that baffles your repose,
Who press the downy couch while slaves advance
With timid eye to read the distant glance,
Who with sad prayers the weary doctor tease
To name the nameless, ever-new disease,
Who with mock patience dire complaints endure,
Which real pain and that alone can cure,
How would you bear in real pain to lie
Despised, neglected, left alone to die?
How would you bear to draw your latest breath
Where all that's wretched paves the way to death?
--Crabbe.

It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents, except at
occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which
swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling
along the house-tops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the
lamps that struggled against the darkness. Through one of the obscurest
quarters of London, and among haunts little loved by the gentlemen of the
police, a man, evidently of the lowest orders, was wending his solitary
way. He stopped twice or thrice at different shops and houses of a
description correspondent with the appearance of the quartier in which
they were situated, and tended inquiry for some article or another which
did not seem easily to be met with. All the answers he received were
couched in the negative; and as he turned from each door he muttered to
himself, in no very elegant phraseology, his disappointment and
discontent. At length, at one house, the landlord, a sturdy butcher,
after rendering the same reply the inquirer had hitherto received, added,
"But if this vill do as vell, Dummie, it is quite at your sarvice!"
Pausing reflectively for a moment, Dummie responded that he thought the
thing proffered might do as well; and thrusting it into his ample pocket,
he strode away with as rapid a motion as the wind and the rain would
allow. He soon came to a nest of low and dingy buildings, at the
entrance to which, in half-effaced characters, was written "Thames
Court." Halting at the most conspicuous of these buildings, an inn or
alehouse, through the half-closed windows of which blazed out in ruddy
comfort the beams of the hospitable hearth, he knocked hastily at the
door. He was admitted by a lady of a certain age, and endowed with a
comely rotundity of face and person.

"Hast got it, Dummie?" said she, quickly, as she closed the door on the
guest.


====================

End of page one. Well, do you turn the page?

What do you know, and do you care?

[SpookyWriter]

End of page one. Well, do you turn the page?

What do you know, and do you care?Would I turn the page? Yes I would. I cared little for nothing but to learn what secret he held. The opening (of this tale) allowed me to follow Dummie through the streets of London, of Old, as he set about retrieving an object from the butcher. But what was he carrying? What was behind the door?

Thanks!

[aertep]

I know:
a storm rages
we're in the London slums
because I know who the author is I know it's the 19th century or before
alone, Dummie goes door to door, searching for something that is not easy to come by
a "sturdy butcher" (German? Austrian?) offers a substitute which Dummie thinks will suffice (a bone? flesh?)
Dummie puts it in his ample pocket (eeuw) and takes it immediately to another part of the slums, Thames Court, to a woman (older, overweight). It's for her he's braved the storm to find this thing. For love? money? I don't know. But he's eager to bring it to her and she's eager to have it. Is she a madam? A criminal? Thames Court is a warm and inviting place. A brothel? (inn or alehouse, half-closed windows, hospitable hearth)
The woman closes the door quickly behind Dummie. This thing he has brought her might be something to hide.

I would turn the page.
My reasons: I want to know what Dummie's got. I love creaky stories of old London. And I admit, since the opening line is so famous and I've never read beyond it, I want to know what's in the rest of the story.

Frankly, I like the first paragraph just fine, even though the first sentence is famously burdensome.

[aertep]

If I wanted to package Margaret Atwood's book as science fiction, I could. The difference would be in the cover painting, in the back-cover blurb, and the logo on the spine.

If I remember correctly, you're referring to The Blind Assassin. I read it quite some time ago and I don't remember all the details, but I do remember being floored by Atwood's mastery. She had three different plots going, all related, all enthralling.

Specifically I remember in the first plot, there's an intriguing man who's mentioned but not seen until at least page 100. I wanted to see him and she put me off, kept me waiting. I stuck around. I cared about a character who hadn't even appeared.

Atwood may not be to everyone's taste, but she is a master at her craft.

[RG570]

I definitely wouldn't turn the page. I could barely make it past the first one.

That piece seems vaguely familiar. I get the haunting suspicion that it's the book that we have to thank for the Bulwer-Lytton awards.

[Rolling Thunder]

I felt the same way; wanting to know more. So, I did just that and, well, was pretty disappointed after the action suddenly stopped and went into a detailed description of the surroundings in the subsequent paragraphs.

I have to admit he lost me at that point, after all the build up.

[FennelGiraffe]

No, I wouldn't turn the page. I realize it was once a respectable practice, but I absolutely hate it when the author plays coy with the reader--telling us the char "tended inquiry for some article or another" without telling us what the &$#% thing is.

[aertep]

I felt the same way; wanting to know more. So, I did just that and, well, was pretty disappointed after the action suddenly stopped and went into a detailed description of the surroundings in the subsequent paragraphs.

Bummer.

[Nangleator]

Given this start, I'd definitely read more. Sure, it's got problems, but I'd chalk them up as afflictions common to stories of an earlier age.

...fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the
lamps that struggled against the darkness.... Poetic. A living author can't say stuff like that in the narrative, but I can still comfortably read it.

...He stopped twice or thrice at different shops and houses of a
description correspondent with the appearance of the quartier in which
they were situated, and tended inquiry for some article or another which
did not seem easily to be met with.... A bit more wordy than it should be, even for its age. Inefficient.

...Halting at the most conspicuous of these buildings, an inn or alehouse, <snip> He was admitted by a lady of a certain age.... Too indistinct. Third Person, Extremely Limited? Third Person, Poor Observer?

Still, I'd read more. Something interesting is happening, and just like I'd watch someone who seemed to be doing something fishy, I'd want to know everything about this Dummie.

[retterson]

Let's talk about Getting the Reader to Care:

It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents, except at
occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which
swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling
along the house-tops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the
lamps that struggled against the darkness. Through one of the obscurest
quarters of London, and among haunts little loved by the gentlemen of the
police, a man, evidently of the lowest orders, was wending his solitary
way. He stopped twice or thrice at different shops and houses of a


From Bulwer-Lytton's Paul Clifford, yes. The awards are named after him but not because this opening is particularly bad but because Snoopy from Peanuts used "It was a dark and stormy night" as the opening to each of his shlocky novels. B-L's been maligned.

FWIW -- the opening of my Hats of War story began with "It was a dark and stormy night."

[retterson]

May I again recommend Henning Nelms' Magic and Showmanship (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486410870/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/)? Many of your questions about getting the reader to care will become clear when you read that book.


Yes, you may, Jim. But I'm afraid that it wouldn't work for my particular style of learning. I'm a haptic learner. I'm not very good at learning by analogy.

2 x 4 upside the head is sometimes most efficient.

[retterson]

I've owned Blind Assassin for five years. For five years I've tried to read it.

The book (for me) completely lacks Gotta.

[aghast]

How can a reader care if they don't know anything?

do you need to know everything about someone before you care about them? not everything but just enough so that you know they are real people so they want to find out why this and that happens - if i see a mother of three drown her children and then kill herself, i dont need to know anything about them at first to care and thats when the intrigue comes - why did she do that, so the trick is to get the readers to ask questions and to start with something extraordinary - otherwise, if you start with a guy eathing his sandwich, i'd definitely say why should i care if its ham or turkey

[Nangleator]

And another thing. How does the opening "It was a dark and stormy night" come from the guy who, just a few lines later, writes "He stopped twice or thrice at different shops and houses of a description correspondent with the appearance of the quartier in which they were situated, and tended inquiry for some article or another which did not seem easily to be met with. All the answers he received were couched in the negative; and as he turned from each door he muttered to himself, in no very elegant phraseology, his disappointment and discontent."

How did we not end up with "He asked around the bad parts of town for something and didn't get it. So he grumbled."? Did this guy start writing a book, give up after his first few words, read a bunch of Poe, and start in where he left off?

[James D. Macdonald]

One thing y'all should remember about 19th c. novels is that they were meant to be read aloud -- by the pater familias in the parlour as an evening's diversion, for example.

[aghast]

we should read our own work aloud but not in that 19th c way, hope not anyway - to me excecution is just as important as the story itself and prose like that, at least for modern literature, really takes me out - i would probably wonder what is happening next but i doubt i will turn the page, suspense alone is not going to do it

[Ken Schneider]

Not every book is a literary masterpiece that starts out with a bang.

Readers have to have a stick to it mindset to get into a book.

Here's the opening scene from a book that everyone knows.

In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat; it was a Hobbit hole, and that meant comfort.
It had a perfectly round door, like a port-hole, painted green, with a shiny yellow brass knob right in the middle. The door opened onto a tube- shaped hall like a tunnel;a very comfortable tunnel without smoke, with paneled walls, and floors tiled and carpeted, provided with polished chairs, and lots and lots of pegs for hats and coats— the Hobbit was fond of visitors. The tunnel wound on and on, going fairly but not quite straight into the side of the hill— The Hill, as all the people for many miles around called it—and many little round doors opened out of it, first on one side and then on another.

If you didn't know the rest of this story would you read on?

If you picked this book up for the first time and didn't have a reader's fortitude to continue you'd miss a heck of an adventure.

Why would a reader continue to read a book with such a bland opening. IMHO.

Just to find out what a Hobbit is? Poor reason.

May be the reason this book found little popularity until the author's death. The Hobbit was written in 1937.

Likewise with the current fad involving C.S. Lewis.

I first read this series in 1978, in book form, of course. I still have those original books purchased for me as a Christmas gift, still on the shelf, still in the cardboard box-set packaging.

Peter S. Beagle, who worked on the revised edition wrote in the introduction forward in 1973:
It's been fifteen years at this writing since I first came across The Lord of the Rings in the stacks at Carnegie library in Pittsburg. I'd been looking for the book for four years, ever since reading W.H. Auden's review in The New York Times. I think of that time now—and the years after, when the trilogy continued to be hard to find and hard to explain to most friends.

AND LATER: I've never thought it an accident that Tolkien's works waited more than ten years to explode into popularity almost overnight.



Most will be hard pressed to answer this question without drawing on what they know about the rest of the story.

[retterson]

Not every book is a literary masterpiece that starts out with a bang.

Readers have to have a stick to it mindset to get into a book.

And Harry Potter begins with a description of how boring and ordinary the Dursleys are . . .

I agree absolutely -- not every book has to start out with a bang -- not every great book has. It kind of makes you wonder about all the great books that don't get published because the slush-pile reader didn't have the patience to get into three or four pages.

I've heard that the rule of thumb is that a novelist has as many as ten pages to capture the reader. A short-story writer has 13 lines.

Tolkien -- in my mind (and let the reply posts begin!!) -- is an icon but by no means a literary master. He excelled at world-building. But the storytelling of his novels -- well, I haven't read such tedious bilge (how many words for "meadow" are there and do I really care?) in a long, long while. I'd be so bold as to say that Tolkien is a giant despite how he wrote his stories -- not because of how he wrote them.

I tried many times to read The Hobbit. After the movies came out, I finally managed to make it through the trilogy -- but I only think I was able to because (having seen the movie) I was finally able to hold the through-line in my head amid all the really boring stuff that's in those books -- and, perhaps more importantly, I had come to care about the characters because of the movies. Mind, I'm a big fan of the 19th century writers; so I can stomach a lot of meant-to-fill-a-TV-less night detail, but Tolkien just makes me want to scream.

At the end of the day, I'd put Tolkien in the category of someone who did some great world-building and told a nice story (although not a terribly new one). He was a pioneer. A giant in the field. But he wasn't a master story teller. (Peter Jackson is a master storyteller.)

And I just know that I'm going to get a lot of responses to this . . . :)

[FennelGiraffe]

I've heard that the rule of thumb is that a novelist has as many as ten pages to capture the reader. A short-story writer has 13 lines. That's how I choose books (as a reader). I do some pre-filtering, but once I actually open up a novel, I'm going to give it at least five or six pages. Sure, sometimes I hit a strong negative sooner, but never just because it "failed to hook me". I've always been a little bewildered when people start obsessing over the first line, or first paragraph.

On the other hand, some of the blogs by editors and agents say that if they aren't hooked in the first 100-200 words, it's an automatic rejection. So maybe it's necessary to write that way to get the first sale.

[janetbellinger]

If the first few paragraphs don't hook me, I try to be fair and give the book a chance to change my mind. I do this by flipping a few pages into the story and reading a few paragraphs there. If it still hasn't interested me, I put it down.

[aertep]

Tolkien's voice is what drew me in when I read those books years ago. When I was in college in the 70's I ate up The Hobbit and the trilogy and couldn't put them down. But I tried to pick up The Hobbit again a couple of years ago, and I couldn't get through it.

Have I matured as a reader, or have my tastes changed with the times? Maybe both.

I think there are generational differences in readers, and it's true some classic books might not pass the slush pile now. Do I enjoy the likes of Shakespeare, Henry Fielding, Jane Austen, etc. because I'm over 40? Is it impossible to enjoy those authors if one has grown up in a faster-paced world? I hope not. I had to learn the language of those authors to appreciate them, and it was worth it. Younger readers can do the same, and it'll be worth it to them, too.

I like modern authors, too. In fact, I am one.

I can tolerate a slow beginning, but only--only--if the writing is excellent.

Slush-pile readers are under pressure. They're also reading first-time, un-agented novelists. Once we've leapt that hurdle and become tried and true, we can write that excellent, slower beginning for our readers to relish.

[Ken Schneider]

I think there are generational differences in readers, and it's true some classic books might not pass the slush pile now. Do I enjoy the likes of Shakespeare, Henry Fielding, Jane Austen, etc. because I'm over 40? Is it impossible to enjoy those authors if one has grown up in a faster-paced world? I hope not.

Ding ding ding!

In this fast-paced world of cell phones, fastfood, and the preception of so many things to do, stoked by advertising and keeping up with the Jones'...

I've fallen in love with a winter snow storm/ blizzard for its abilities to stop the madness and bring peace, quiet, and stillness to my part of the world.

[Ken Schneider]

I'd like to do one more opening, to see who may or may not turn the page, just for giggles. I'll reveal the author if someone doesn't pick up on who it is. Then, I'll get out of the way, as I don't want to highjack UJ.

Just trying to make a point about writers and openings.

::

An ancient English Cathedral tower? How can the ancient English Cathedral tower be here! The well-known massive gray square tower of its old Cathedral? How can it be here? There is no spike of rusty iron in the air, between the eye and it, from any point of the real prospect.What is the spike that intervenes, and who has set it up? Maybe it is set up by the Sultan's orders for the impaling of a horde of Turkish robbers, one by one. It is so, for cymbals clash, and the Sultan goes by to his palace in long procession. Ten thousand scimitars flash in the sunlight, and thrice ten thousand dancing-girls strew flowers. Then, follow white Elephants caparisoned in countless gorgeous colours, and infinite in number and attendants.

Like it, don't, know who worte it?

[jpserra]

Let's talk about Getting the Reader to Care:

Time to play the analysis game. This time, a classic work. Best seller, multiple editions ....
CHAPTER I.
Say, ye oppressed by some fantastic woes,
Some jarring nerve that baffles your repose,
Who press the downy couch while slaves advance
With timid eye to read the distant glance,
Who with sad prayers the weary doctor tease
To name the nameless, ever-new disease,
Who with mock patience... the way to death?
--Crabbe.
End of page one. Well, do you turn the page?

What do you know, and do you care?

To you I bow and would continue. But my true desires are for something less poetic; something more Dash-ing or Papa-esc. Something earthier, base and cold.


I, of course, have read this, and studied many from that period, but choose not to, any longer.



JPS

[retterson]

An ancient English Cathedral tower? How can the ancient English Cathedral tower be here! The well-known massive gray square tower of its old Cathedral? How can it be here? There is no spike of rusty iron in the air, between the eye and it, from any point of the real prospect.

(snipped)

Like it, don't, know who worte it?

I won't be a spoiler, except to say, that to this day, I'd like to know who the murderer was . . .

[James D. Macdonald]

The opening of The Hobbit is a great example of providing description by taking away information. First we're told that a hole exists, then we're told all the things that the hole isn't.

Tolkien had an idiosyncratic style. He also created a new genre. Later works in that genre have refined the concept so much that the earlier work seems crude in comparison, and reworked some parts so much that they've become cliches. That doesn't mean the original work wasn't groundbreaking.

Of course it wasn't everyone's cup of tea. What work is?

The lesson is to write your passion. Tolkien's passion was linguistics.

[James D. Macdonald]

CHAPTER I.

We're in a chapter book, not a short story. Expect a slower beginning, since each part is in proportion to the length of the piece.
Say, ye oppressed by some fantastic woes,
Some jarring nerve that baffles your repose,
Who press the downy couch while slaves advance
With timid eye to read the distant glance,
Who with sad prayers the weary doctor tease
To name the nameless, ever-new disease,
Who with mock patience dire complaints endure,
Which real pain and that alone can cure,
How would you bear in real pain to lie
Despised, neglected, left alone to die?
How would you bear to draw your latest breath
Where all that's wretched paves the way to death?
--Crabbe.

The epigraph; perhaps a prologue. This is the stating the theme. The poet contrasts the rich hypocondriac with the genuinely ill poor person.
It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents, except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling along the house-tops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the lamps that struggled against the darkness.

Setting the scene, providing a backdrop for the action to come. A stormy night is naturally dramatic. Opening your novel with a weather report has become a cliche; it became a cliche because it works so reliably and so often.

Through one of the obscurest quarters of London, and among haunts little loved by the gentlemen of the police, a man, evidently of the lowest orders, was wending his solitary way.

A rough neighborhood, and we're introduced to our first character two sentences in. Remember that most stories start with a person in a place with a problem. Our person here is a common laborer, or perhaps a ruffian. He is certainly not afraid to walk out in a bad part of town. The first reason we have to care is this: The question "What brings a guy out on that kind of night?" Most readers have been out in bad weather and know what it's like, and know that only the most compelling reason will force it.

He stopped twice or thrice at different shops and houses of a description correspondent with the appearance of the quartier in which they were situated, and tended inquiry for some article or another which did not seem easily to be met with.

He's well-known in an area where the police fear to tread. This is characterization. Also, we're given his problem. He's looking for something, something rare in that quarter.

All the answers he received were couched in the negative; and as he turned from each door he muttered to himself, in no very elegant phraseology, his disappointment and discontent.

Very hard to find; and the man is a brute. Everyone knows what it's like to search for something they can't find, whether it be a cup of sugar or the car keys. What he said would have been literally unprintable in the 19th century, thus the circumlocution.

At length, at one house, the landlord, a sturdy butcher, after rendering the same reply the inquirer had hitherto received, added, "But if this vill do as vell, Dummie, it is quite at your sarvice!"

We're given the man's name. We care what the man's name is by now, since we've known him for four sentences and are sympathetic to his plight. Dialect has fallen out of favor since the 19th century. Its main purpose was to guide the person reading aloud in how to pronounce the words in the proper accent. With more silent reading by individuals this is less important.


Pausing reflectively for a moment, Dummie responded that he thought the thing proffered might do as well; and thrusting it into his ample pocket, he strode away with as rapid a motion as the wind and the rain would allow.

Indirect discourse. A bit of a cheat, since while the POV is close enough to hear the words a description of the object isn't given. More reinforcement of Dummie's character and of the severity of the weather. (The mention of the ample pocket is the first note of Dummie's profession -- he's a pickpocket -- but we won't be told that until later. At the moment we don't care what Dummie does as his day job, so we aren't told.) We're gaining more sympathy with Dummie, and learning that despite his appearance he's capable of thought.

He soon came to a nest of low and dingy buildings, at the entrance to which, in half-effaced characters, was written "Thames Court."

Pure description. Nothing much happens between getting the object and arriving at the destination, the reader has no reason to care about the interval, so it isn't given. Because it's where Dummie (who we care about) is going, we care, so the name of the place can be given.

Halting at the most conspicuous of these buildings, an inn or alehouse, through the half-closed windows of which blazed out in ruddy comfort the beams of the hospitable hearth, he knocked hastily at the door.

Description. We care about what it looks like since we know its name and need a mental picture to tie that tag onto.

He was admitted by a lady of a certain age, and endowed with a
comely rotundity of face and person.

Character two. We don't care about her yet, so no name, and the description is spare enough that if we forget it, it doesn't matter.

"Hast got it, Dummie?" said she, quickly, as she closed the door on the guest.


This woman (again speaking in dialect), ties herself into Dummie (she knows him), and to the object. She's now important enough to care about.

==============

For the sake of the folks who are wondering exactly what Dummie was after that was so hard to find in that district, it was a Bible. What the butcher gave him, instead, was a leather-bound copy of the works of Shakespeare. The reason the landlady wanted a Bible was because one of the young ladies there is dying; it doesn't matter that what's provided isn't a Bible because she can't read.

We're starting a story comparing and contrasting life in the upper and lower parts of society, and highlighting the injustices of the English penal system. "Knowing yourself" is a compelling reason for any reader to pick up a novel.

Paul Clifford had the largest first printing of any novel up to that time; it sold out on the first day. This was a crime novel, and of an entirely new subgenre within crime novels: the hero is the criminal himself.

Bulwer-Lytton wrote the novel with the intent of reforming English criminal justice. Its current obscurity (other than as a bad joke) is further proof of Sam Goldwyn's dictum: "If you want to send a message call Western Union."

[aertep]

Well, bad joke be damned. It sounds interesting to me.

[Berry]

Well, bad joke be damned. It sounds interesting to me.

If you wish to persue your interest, you can find the full text of Paul Clifford (now in the public domain, no longer under copyright) at Project Gutenberg:

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/7735

[James D. Macdonald]

Blast from the past time. I found today I needed HapiSofi's post on Decent Typesetting, and discovered the link back early in this thread was no longer valid.

Here's the new link to HapiSofi on Decent Typesetting (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=94054&postcount=18).

[jpserra]

Honored Sage, That's a helluva post. You just wrote a book!

JPS

[jpserra]

McAllister, in your first post you cited the plagerism cases and outlined the laws, as it pertains. I am not familiar with the contractual arrangements for the Star Trek franchise, but there seems to be a great many authors writing to it. Do you know of any instances in the 20th century, wherein the use of established characters or worlds are public domain? This instance almost suggests that it is public domain.

JPS

[James D. Macdonald]

McAllister, in your first post you cited the plagerism cases and outlined the laws, as it pertains.

Sorry, jpserra, but I don't know which post you're referring to. (This is a long thread....)

[jpserra]

I was referring to Mac's original thread; a compilation of stats on plagerism in Undiluted. I wondered about public domain of popular fictional concepts and characters.

Star Trek has opened an interesting door. Writers develop their own universes, but with the overwhelming impact that Roddenbury had with Star Trek, wouldn't almost any concept used in that universe be a plageristic use? I just don't know, but after reading the post, it popped into my head.

John

[James D. Macdonald]

No. There's nothing in Star Trek that didn't already exist -- decades before -- in written Science Fiction. Nor can ideas be copyrighted, only the specific expression of ideas.

Some popular characters that would be public domain from the 20th century include Sherlock Holmes -- but only from the stories that were published before 1923.

Tarzan would be public domain, but Edgar Rice Burroughs cleverly trademarked the character, so copyright doesn't apply.

[blacbird]

No. There's nothing in Star Trek that didn't already exist -- decades before -- in written Science Fiction. Nor can ideas be copyrighted, only the specific expression of ideas.

Some popular characters that would be public domain from the 20th century include Sherlock Holmes -- but only from the stories that were published before 1923.

Tarzan would be public domain, but Edgar Rice Burroughs cleverly trademarked the character, so copyright doesn't apply.

A bit of clarification about Holmes and Tarzan. The character of Sherlock Holmes is not protected, so you could go ahead and write a new Sherlock Holmes mystery, and numerous have been done, most notably Nicholas Meyer, The Seven Per-Cent Solution. Conan Doyle's pre-1923 Sherlock Holmes tales are in public domain in the U.S. and may be freely reproduced. They are all available on-line, for free, in various venues.

With Tarzan, as James says, the character is trademarked, so you may not write new Tarzan stories. However, like Doyle, Burroughs published a number of Tarzan books prior to 1923, and those are in public domain in the U.S., and like Sherlock Holmes, virtually all of those are available free on-line.

caw.

[jpserra]

No. There's nothing in Star Trek that didn't already exist -- decades before -- in written Science Fiction. Nor can ideas be copyrighted, only the specific expression of ideas.

Some popular characters that would be public domain from the 20th century include Sherlock Holmes -- but only from the stories that were published before 1923.

Tarzan would be public domain, but Edgar Rice Burroughs cleverly trademarked the character, so copyright doesn't apply.

I appreciate the reply. So the verbalized concept of warp fields and warp speed is up for grabs? I use this only as a step toward other public domain ideas. Since the specifics of the science used in describing a given function, do they not survive under copywrite or trademark? Or because of their very public popularity, are these ideas with proprietary copywritten foundations covered under copywrite. I'm not just being difficult. If I chose to write a book involving the use of these concepts, I wonder if I might not be in violation of copywrite.

John

[PeeDee]

I appreciate the reply. So the verbalized concept of warp fields and warp speed is up for grabs? I use this only as a step toward other public domain ideas. Since the specifics of the science used in describing a given function, do they not survive under copywrite or trademark? Or because of their very public popularity, are these ideas with proprietary copywritten foundations covered under copywrite. I'm not just being difficult. If I chose to write a book involving the use of these concepts, I wonder if I might not be in violation of copywrite.
John

If think that if you were to start using the phrases "warp speed," "warp fields" "Ferengi" and "Klingon" altogether, then Paramount might come knocking on your door with a lead pipe.

By itself, the phrases "warp speed" and "warp fields" are not just Star Trek. Like a lot of Star Trek things, they were once upon a time actually related to real honest-to-goodness science.

The reason I mentioned the Ferengi is, Star Trek was not their first appearance. They may not have looked the same, but the term Ferengi has been around sci-fi for a long-o time-o.

[James D. Macdonald]

Ideas can't be copyrighted. Klingons are probably trademarked, however.

[K_Woods]

I'd like to do one more opening, to see who may or may not turn the page, just for giggles. I'll reveal the author if someone doesn't pick up on who it is. Then, I'll get out of the way, as I don't want to highjack UJ.

Just trying to make a point about writers and openings.

::

An ancient English Cathedral tower? How can the ancient English Cathedral tower be here! The well-known massive gray square tower of its old Cathedral? How can it be here? There is no spike of rusty iron in the air, between the eye and it, from any point of the real prospect.What is the spike that intervenes, and who has set it up? Maybe it is set up by the Sultan's orders for the impaling of a horde of Turkish robbers, one by one. It is so, for cymbals clash, and the Sultan goes by to his palace in long procession. Ten thousand scimitars flash in the sunlight, and thrice ten thousand dancing-girls strew flowers. Then, follow white Elephants caparisoned in countless gorgeous colours, and infinite in number and attendants.

Like it, don't, know who worte it?

The repetition has me glazing over before the fifth sentence. The rest of the prose has me too busy screaming in the back of my head to even contemplate continuing. So, yeah, you could say I don't like it.

I have no clue who wrote it -- feel free to share, even if I end up feeling embarassed :)

As for the Bulwer-Lytton sample, I'd probably turn the page, but give up soon after. It might read better out loud, but on paper it feels so congested it's almost headache-inducing. I read an entire book that felt like that once, and I think it did give me a headache. Lesson learned: pacing is important, both in terms of story and sentence structure. And giving readers headaches is a Bad Thing™.

[James D. Macdonald]

Ken's example is by Charles Dickens. It's really a bit short; I doubt that's a full page.

[retterson]

Ken's example is by Charles Dickens. It's really a bit short; I doubt that's a full page.

Yeah, and the whole book is too short -- by nearly half as I recall. :)

[retterson]

Dickens used repetition evocatively. He used voice quite expertly to make you feel, really feel the ambiance of the scene he's writing.

Dickens and authors like him control the readers' experience with their words -- they don't leave it up to YOUR imagination because the story is solidly a product of DICKENS' imagination. It's his story. Modern authors are rarely as effective at controlling so many aspects of the readers' experience.

[Ken Schneider]

Ken's example is by Charles Dickens. It's really a bit short; I doubt that's a full page.

Correct, hardly a full page, but, none the less, the opening of the Mystery of Edwin Drood.

Point being, in short, never judge a published book by its opening.

[Christine N.]

Ack. TMOED is rather a tiresome, gloomy tome. Certainly not his best work, and not just because he died in the middle of it. (Dickens, I mean - what happened to poor Edwin is left to speculation).

The musical is a fun little romp, though. I did it in High School. The audience gets to vote for the murderer. Which, of course, means we had to practice 10 different endings.

[K_Woods]

Ah, now I'm not surprised at my reaction. Dickens and I are not on happy terms.

...Looking up the summary, though, I might have to check this out. It sounds like a doozy.

(Edit: On the other hand, now that I see Christine's post, maybe not.)

[oswann]

Dickens used repetition evocatively. He used voice quite expertly to make you feel, really feel the ambiance of the scene he's writing.



Dickens, in his day, would have been read aloud too. Imagine hearing the book and not reading it and you have an idea of why some of the devices like repetition are used.

Os.

[Neeli]

... term Ferengi has been around sci-fi for a long-o time-o.
The term Ferengi--sometimes spelled Farangi--was a derogatory term in Urdu/Hindu used in colonial India for the white-Christian Britishers. If you watch the movie Lagaan (recently nominated for best foreign film at the Academy Awards) the villagers use that term for the British--and it is not used kindly. Now the slur is continued in Star Trek, and all the Desi's chuckle at its use, remembering its history.

[K_Woods]

Dickens, in his day, would have been read aloud too. Imagine hearing the book and not reading it and you have an idea of why some of the devices like repetition are used.

Os.

I do that and still get an "Adventurers" vibe from the repetition. (If you're wondering what I mean, click here (http://www.adventurers-comic.com/d/0004.html).) It doesn't sound natural to me at all.

Then again, I think repetition might just be a sore spot. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head that wowed me.

Neeli -- I wouldn't be surprised if that is the origin of "Ferengi." It seems oddly appropriate, even if it is a slur.

[Dawno]

Hi folks - just a short off topic visit. I mentioned this thread in my blog tonight and had to check the first post to see when the thread began for that mention. Did you all know that Learn Writing with Uncle Jim is going to have it's 3rd anniversary soon? Yep, Nov. 13, 2003 was the day of the first post.

Cheers to Uncle Jim and the rest of you! Have a Happy Anniversary!

[James D. Macdonald]

Thanks, Dawno.

(Dawno's blog is here (http://www.dawnonowyouseeit.blogspot.com/).)

[James D. Macdonald]

I posted this elsewhere, but I think I'll repost it here....

=================

Why are you thinking of Amazon Shorts and ezines? Isn't The Paris Review (http://www.theparisreview.org/page.php/prmID/32)taking submissions any more? How about Harper's (http://www.harpers.org/SubmissionGuidelines.html)? Woman's Day (http://womansday.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=18304)? F&SF (http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/glines.htm)? Cemetary Dance (http://www.cemeterydance.com/page/CDP/Guidelines)? Hitchcock (http://www.themysteryplace.com/ahmm/guidelines/)? Where do you find the fiction that you yourself read?

If you don't have a copy of Writer's Market (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1582974276/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) go out right now and get one.

Aim high, people. You won't know if you're good enough to play in the big leagues until you've submitted your stuff there. You should work down to the 1/4-cent-a-word and 4theluv places. You won't work your way up from them.

Fast, Easy, Good. Choose two.

[aertep]

Congratulations, Uncle Jim, and many thanks.

I started reading this thread in March of '05. I set myself a rule that I wasn't allowed to post until I'd read it all, so I don't know when I first posted. But to call it a thread isn't quite right. It's more of a school--its letters are BIC.

Thanks to this school, I spend more time writing than I do here at the Water Cooler (even though I really like it here). The second draft of my novel is finished, and while it sat I did more research and took more notes. To celebrate NaNoWriMo I'm beginning draft three this week.

B!I!C!

Thanks, Uncle Jim, and happy LWWUJ anniversary.

[Ken Schneider]

I've learned much on this thread. Long live LWWUJ.

[picnichampa]

I've finally read through all this thread.
Thank you Uncle Jim and everyone, reading this has kept me busy for weeks and I've learnt lots.
Err... suppose I've got to do the exercises now?

[bsolah]

This has been an invaluable thread.

And I've been meaning to get a copy of the Writer's Market for a while. I really need it now because I'm running out of markets to sub my stories too. It seems horror markets are dying everyday. The solution, all the people who sub to mags ought to buy them too.

[Forbidden Snowflake]

Bloody awesome thread, thank you :)

[Allynegirl]

Happy 3rd Anniversary LWWUJ :partyguy: I have found loads of valuable information and wonderful inspiration in this thread. Thanks y'all and especially UJ!

[picnichampa]

Can I ask a question of UJ and the rest?

My (rather cheesy) WIP is typical fantasy stuff; swordfights are obligatory. When I try to write a fight scene, I suddenly realise I have no idea what I'm talking about. How do people research the fight scenes? There are no evening classes in sword fighting locally...

I'm itching to get a slingshot in there as well.

Any ideas to make it sound authentic? Thanks.

[aertep]

Can I ask a question of UJ and the rest?

My (rather cheesy) WIP is typical fantasy stuff; swordfights are obligatory. When I try to write a fight scene, I suddenly realise I have no idea what I'm talking about. How do people research the fight scenes? There are no evening classes in sword fighting locally...

I'm itching to get a slingshot in there as well.

Any ideas to make it sound authentic? Thanks.

When I needed to write a swordfight, I was lucky to have these guys http://www.swordplayla.com/ nearby. I think there are videos on the site that you can watch. They staged my fight for me. If/when I ever publish my novel, they will have HUGE THANKS in the acknowledgements, links on my website, love and kisses, etc. etc.

Without local sword fighting studios, you might rent swashbuckling movies and take notes. If you want terminology, that's googleable. Also, I seem to remember library books on fencing and swordplay that give diagrams of stances, types of thrusts, parries, etc. Can't remember a title or author at this point, however. Maybe someone else does.

[allion]

Over in the Scifi-Fantasy forum, we have this discussion:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42591

You may find it helpful for swordwork and such.

Karen

[pdr]

the Story Research Board has a tactics thread and we have various experts in various forms of fighting who are AW members and will help you out.

[James D. Macdonald]

I was an AFLA fencer (foil and epee), and fought broadsword and mace in the SCA. During my Navy days I'd sit with my back to the wall in waterfront taverns, observing the degradation of my fellow man, and taking mental notes during the fights.

What I can say about describing swordfights is -- keep it brief, and don't use technical language. Who the hey among the general readership will know what a parry in quarte looks like? Or exactly what a coupe is?

Later on I'll see if I can find one of my swordfighting scenes and type it in, with commentary.

Like anything else: research. Find someone who's an expert and run your scene past him or her.

Make sure the fight scene advances plot and reveals character.

And don't bore the reader.

[oswann]

I geared myself up for a fight scene between my main character and one of the suspects in my book which ended up with both of them having a laughing fit. It's not boring and the book advances just as it would have done if they had socked each other.

Os.

[picnichampa]

Thanks very much everyone, that's really helpful.

Uncle Jim? I'd like to see that swordfighting scene and commentary sometime, that'd be great.
And I'll try not to bore the reader any more than usual...

[aertep]

Thanks very much everyone, that's really helpful.

Uncle Jim? I'd like to see that swordfighting scene and commentary sometime, that'd be great.
And I'll try not to bore the reader any more than usual...

I would, too, especially with your comments.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Hi folks - just a short off topic visit. I mentioned this thread in my blog tonight and had to check the first post to see when the thread began for that mention. Did you all know that Learn Writing with Uncle Jim is going to have it's 3rd anniversary soon? Yep, Nov. 13, 2003 was the day of the first post.

Cheers to Uncle Jim and the rest of you! Have a Happy Anniversary!


And in the almost two years that I've been here, this thread has been a wonderful resource in my own writing. Thanks, Uncle Jim, for giving your time and your ability to help newbie writers such as myself become more professional as we endeavor to make careers for ourselves in the writing field. (And please forgive me for the long sentence.)

[PeeDee]

My (rather cheesy) WIP is typical fantasy stuff; swordfights are obligatory. When I try to write a fight scene, I suddenly realise I have no idea what I'm talking about. How do people research the fight scenes? There are no evening classes in sword fighting locally...

Yes. Contact John Clements, Director of ARMA and go around their web-site (http://www.thearma.org/). Apart from the handiness of their site, John's also a very friendly person whom I've talked to a couple of times now (I'm doing an article on proper fantasy sword fights) who very definitely knows his stuff.

Just make sure that what you're getting your inspiration, your'e not getting it from movies and video games, or poorly done books. Otherwise, you're getting out on a tenuous limb.

Happy 3rd Anniversary! Still enjoying doing this thread, Unca Jim?

[picnichampa]

Thanks Peedee, great website.

I'll contact Mr JC when I've got something better to run past him, thanks.

Video clips are very useful. Those guys move really fast! And it's more effort than I'd realised - one chap is doing some serious grunting. How on earth did they keep that up for the length of a battle?

Looks like great fun, I'm definitely going to have to try harder to find classes.

[Berry]

How on earth did they keep that up for the length of a battle?


Serious warriors would train from youth for strength and endurance.

[Dru]

That, and there's the whole incentive of the whole gang of other guys trying to hack you apart. Adrenaline is an amazing thing. Keep in mind that the infantry (or levies/militias) was/is almost always grist for the war-machine mill. There's a big difference between being the commander of troops and leading the charge. Braveheart moments non-withstanding.

[Milton]

Help! My WIP turns out to be very heavy on background, with several tribes of people who have important backstories. Can anyone remind me of books that successfully presented tons of background? I'm at a loss about how to work it in.

--Milton

[Nangleator]

Lord of the Rings.

Early action, engaging characters and attractive prose affords you the right to go off on tangents.