Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[HConn]

Diane, if you back that lime pie, take a better picture of it than this:

<-----------------------------------

[James D. Macdonald]

I was under the impression that only a small fraction of books showed a profit for the publisher.

That's a misapprehension by folks who aren't in the business who hear "a quarter earn out" and think that means "only a quarter make a profit." I've seen folks claim that editors are all incompetent because they guess wrong three quarters of the time about what books the public wants. Usually it's the people who haven't managed to sell a book who tell you this.

[BardSkye]

I've gotten burned every time I've commented on works over in Share Your Work, so, alas, I must decline.

After the help you give everyone on this thread? I think that's almost incomprehensibly rude. Why do people ask for opinions if they really want praise?

I went to two bookstores yesterday looking for books by Uncle Jim and neither had any. So on payday I'm going to order them in.

[paritoshuttam]

Hi,

What are the common ways to distinguish characters through speech? Basically, I don't want all my characters to sound the same. A reader should be able to tell who is speaking without having to look at the dialogue attribution tags like A said, B said, etc.

In my WIP, most of the characters are colleagues in an office. So, more or less, their education and background are similar, and they work in the same milieu. There might be some differences, but not drastic.

I can't use accents to differentiate. I loathe reading accented speech full of apostrophes and swallowed syllables and I am not going to write it :-)

I can use some sort of mannerism, like a penchant for using a particular phrase or two, but I don't want to overdo it either at the risk of making a caricature of the character. Any other possible ways of distinguishing characters through speech?

My characters also do a lot of writing, but I find it easier to distinguish their writing than their talking. I can use longer or shorter sentences, difficult or easy words, different punctuation styles, etc. I am reluctant to let my characters speak long-winding sentences with complex construction, because it doesn't sound real to me, unless he/she is a politician or a lawyer or an actor.

Would love to hear more comments or inputs on this aspect.

thanks,
Paritosh.

[James D. Macdonald]

No, you shouldn't be doing dialect. To differentiate your characters, play with word choice and sentence rhythm.

May I again suggest James M. Cain's The Postman Always Rings Twice as a master example of characters identifiable through their dialog? There are long swatches of two-and-three person dialog with no tags where nevertheless we have no trouble keeping who's speaking straight.

The baseline to doing it is this: The characters must be distinct in your mind.

(Oh, and everyone go pre-order The Land of Mist and Snow (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060819197/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/). Coming out on December 1, which means it's actually gonna be available in the last two weeks of November. An excellent holiday gift for all the folks on your list! It's got action, adventure, romance, mystery, sex, violence, the American Civil War and a demented paleographer. Everything that a good book should have. You need a copy for every room in your house, and one for your car. Hard winter coming ... you'll want to lay in eight or ten cords of 'em.)

[James D. Macdonald]

I'll be away for the weekend at Readercon:

http://www.readercon.org/program.htm


9:00 pm Friday: Fitting Character to Plot
12:30 pm Saturday: Reading from The Land of Mist and Snow
10:00 am Sunday: Kaffeeklatch
12:00 noon Sunday: Social Class and Speculative Fiction
1:00 pm Sunday: Viable Paradise Writers' Workshop presentation

During the course of the weekend, my daughter informs me that we will be seeing Pirates of the Caribbean II. I also intend to see if there's any Indian food to be had in the area.

I may or may not be logging in here.

[Nangleator]

James:

I've only just discovered this convention, and it's in my back yard. I'll be attending as much as I can. I plan on bringing note paper, pens and money. Should I bring anything else? (This will be my first writing convention.)

As for Indian food, the food court at the Burlington Mall has a surprisingly good Indian restaurant. Also, go a few exits north on 128 (Washington Street,) turn right off the exit, then turn into a strip mall on the left after an eighth of a mile. Ambassador has an excellent buffet.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Have a good con, Uncle Jim! Eat some saag for Sailor. ;)

[James D. Macdonald]

Eat some saag for Sailor.

Actually, I was planning on vindaloo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM6wRt0V878&search=vindaloo).

[Sailor Kenshin]

Actually, I was planning on vindaloo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM6wRt0V878&search=vindaloo).

Yum!


:partyguy:

[paritoshuttam]

No, you shouldn't be doing dialect. To differentiate your characters, play with word choice and sentence rhythm.

May I again suggest James M. Cain's The Postman Always Rings Twice as a master example of characters identifiable through their dialog? There are long swatches of two-and-three person dialog with no tags where nevertheless we have no trouble keeping who's speaking straight.

The baseline to doing it is this: The characters must be distinct in your mind.



Thanks, Uncle Jim. I already have a copy of the The Postman Always Rings Twice. Guess I should re-read it with an eye for the dialogues this time, instead of just the story :)

[Nangleator]

I'll be away for the weekend at Readercon:

http://www.readercon.org/program.htm

9:00 pm Friday: Fitting Character to Plot...
James is even funnier in person, and just as helpful.

[wrinkles]

Since the thread seems a little slow today, let me take the opportunity to talk about novel writing from the viewpoint of someone who knows nothing about novel writing. For months I've read this thread when I could, and still have a long way to go to get caught up, and I've read numerous posts about beginnings, middles and ends. Do you start a novel by knowing the beginning and writing to the end? Start at the end and write back to the beginning? Start in the middle and write in both directions? (I made that last one up.)

So, it occurred to me that over the years I've heard several interviews with songwriters that have been asked how ideas for songs came to them and, without exception, each one shrugged, literally or figuratively and answered the literal or figurative equivalent of: "Who knows? They drop out of the sky."

I have heard them say that they have written songs based upon a snippet of conversation or an interesting play on words, or they have written music to words or words to music, or they dreamed the whole thing complete and woke up and wrote it down. What I glean from this is that there is no right way to write a song and there is no right way to write a novel. One could write a novel by starting with a premise, a theme, a story, a character, an event, a time, a place, a dream. And it could be started at the beginning, the end or any point in between.

Of course for it to be a good novel, it needs to end up containing all the elements that make a novel good. But the beginning can be from anywhere.

I'm about halfway through writing my first. I started with an ending in mind and began writing to it with the first sentence and, so far, the ending I envisioned hasn't changed. So I keep plugging along toward it. Writing doesn't come easily to me, so I feel like I'm climbing a thick braided rope in some archaic gym class. I'm almost halfway up it now and way up at the top, glinting in the shadows, I can just barely make out that the rope ends at a wonderful golden globe (or maybe a disco ball), which is my ending.

Early on I learned that it's very difficult to climb one of these ropes. I had good days and bad days: days when I made good progress, days when I struggled to stay in place, and a few of those depressing days when I slipped backwards. Then I realized that if I wrote scenes they would create knots that would serve as handholds along the length of the long, thick rope. Climbing became much easier then. Now I'm far above the floor and the height makes me nervous but I can reach up and grasp the next scene and place my feet securely on the one below and haul myself up with a little confidence.

I have an idea for my next novel and for that one I see the beginning clearly, the middle hazily and the ending not at all. If I ever get to that one, I think of me venturing out from a secure platform onto a high, quaking, slack wire with thick fog obscuring where I'm going. I'll just have to do it, though, and be confident that I'll figure out how to stay on the wire until the ending comes into view.

That's the way I see it, anyhow.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Since the thread seems a little slow today, let me take the opportunity to talk about novel writing from the viewpoint of someone who knows nothing about novel writing. For months I've read this thread when I could, and still have a long way to go to get caught up, and I've read numerous posts about beginnings, middles and ends. Do you start a novel by knowing the beginning and writing to the end? Start at the end and write back to the beginning? Start in the middle and write in both directions? (I made that last one up.)

So, it occurred to me that over the years I've heard several interviews with songwriters that have been asked how ideas for songs came to them and, without exception, each one shrugged, literally or figuratively and answered the literal or figurative equivalent of: "Who knows? They drop out of the sky."

I have heard them say that they have written songs based upon a snippet of conversation or an interesting play on words, or they have written music to words or words to music, or they dreamed the whole thing complete and woke up and wrote it down. What I glean from this is that there is no right way to write a song and there is no right way to write a novel. One could write a novel by starting with a premise, a theme, a story, a character, an event, a time, a place, a dream. And it could be started at the beginning, the end or any point in between.

Of course for it to be a good novel, it needs to end up containing all the elements that make a novel good. But the beginning can be from anywhere.

I'm about halfway through writing my first. I started with an ending in mind and began writing to it with the first sentence and, so far, the ending I envisioned hasn't changed. So I keep plugging along toward it. Writing doesn't come easily to me, so I feel like I'm climbing a thick braided rope in some archaic gym class. I'm almost halfway up it now and way up at the top, glinting in the shadows, I can just barely make out that the rope ends at a wonderful golden globe (or maybe a disco ball), which is my ending.

Early on I learned that it's very difficult to climb one of these ropes. I had good days and bad days: days when I made good progress, days when I struggled to stay in place, and a few of those depressing days when I slipped backwards. Then I realized that if I wrote scenes they would create knots that would serve as handholds along the length of the long, thick rope. Climbing became much easier then. Now I'm far above the floor and the height makes me nervous but I can reach up and grasp the next scene and place my feet securely on the one below and haul myself up with a little confidence.

I have an idea for my next novel and for that one I see the beginning clearly, the middle hazily and the ending not at all. If I ever get to that one, I think of me venturing out from a secure platform onto a high, quaking, slack wire with thick fog obscuring where I'm going. I'll just have to do it, though, and be confident that I'll figure out how to stay on the wire until the ending comes into view.

That's the way I see it, anyhow.

YOu make a good point there, W. My stuff literally just "comes to me." Might be a long history of daydreaming, or the ability to work my night dreams into something publishable. The stuff just comes. If you play the "What-if" game long enough, you develop a pretty good set of "What-if" muscles.

Reading a lot helps too.

[aertep]

Nicely stated, wrinkles. I've just finished the second draft of my first novel. The first draft was really easy. Then I set it aside for six months and read it again. It was crap.

There was a plot, but it was contrived. The characters were thin. It was silly.

I still liked the premise, so I tried again. On the second draft, I used the first draft as an outline--so yeah, I knew the ending. But as I wrote, fleshing out characters and making them more human, the plot changed. It had to, because the characters behaved more as people do, not as plot contrivances do.

I know some writers (UJ among them) know the ending when they start. I did, too. And in some details, my ending didn't change. But in many ways it had to because everything else changed. I learned what was happening along the way. It's not that the draft wrote itself; in fact, sometimes I would write my way into a corner I didn't know how to get out of. I had no idea how I was going to move the book forward. Thinking about it didn't help me. There was only one way to find out what happened next, and that was to sit down and write.

An outline undoubtedly helped me, but I felt free to stray from it. Now that the draft is finished, when I look at it again in a few months, we'll see if that did me any good.

[TrainofThought]

I know this is an old post, but I am new to the forum and have questions about the subject.

Not romances in the Fabio-on-the-cover paperbacks, not the Romance section at Borders, not Harlequin (though there'll be things useful in that genre). Not category romance, or genre romance.
Okay, I am thoroughly confused, and naïve to categorizing genres. This is something I need to learn and understand. What is the difference between category romance and genre romance? Are you saying the romance section at Borders is genre romance, and Fabio-on-the-cover paperbacks, category romance?

A novel is: A book length work of realistic prose fiction.

A romance is: A book length prose narrative treating imaginary characters involved in events remote in time or place and usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious.
So if a story is realistic, then it is consider a novel?



The realism issue, then, is the core of the difference between a novel and a romance. The "realistic" books are the mainest of mainstream; they are the literary works.

The vast majority of the things you find in bookstores labeled "novels" are actually romances. That means:

1) imaginary characters

2) events remote in time or place

3) usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious

More on all of this later.

I'll try to drop by to talk more after I finish my work every day (except when I'm out of town).
I don't understand how books at the bookstore labeled "Novels" are actually romance? Is "The DaVinci Code" a romance (just picked a popular book)? Does this mean books such as, "The Notebook", "The Time Traveler’s Wife", "The Horse Whisperer" are romance? Why label ‘realistic prose fiction’ as romance? Isn’t there a genre for love stories? I ask because I refer to, “The Time Traveler’s Wife,” and others as love stories.

I’m sure my ignorance is frustrating, but I want to understand genres and how they are categorized. Thanks much.

[nevada]

train of though, you actually understand more than you think. Yes, the section at Borders labelled "Romance" is the genre section. Within those, books like Harlequins and Silhouettes are further defined as category Romances.

THe romances that UJ is talking about derives from an older term more often used in English Literature classes. It talks about adventure stories, mysteries, fantasies. Like Uncle Jim said, usually far away, mysterious, adventurous.

So yes, The DaVinci Code is a romance but it's not Romance as accepted genre fiction. Remember the romantic poets? Byron et al. They didnt always write about love but they wrote about larger than life things, adventures, quests. If it's a small literary work where nothing much happens and it's more concerned with the development of character and theme then it's a novel but not a romance.(With a small r)

All books of fiction are called novels now. That's why you dont have to say fictional novel, just like you don't have to say dead corpse. But go into Borders and pick up any book in any area. If they have action, if they take place sometimes in exotic locations, if there is a mystery, if there is suspense then it's a romance. If the book deals mainly with a couple and there is love and there is a happy ending and the focus of the book is the relationship then it's a Romance, defined by genre.

Hope that didnt make things even more complicated. Like I said, romance with a small r is used mainly in English Literature circles. But it's good to know these things.

If you check the dictionary, a good one like websters, it'll give you several definitions for the word romance. including those that Uncle Jim gave. Maybe it'll help you to think of them from now on as romance with or without a capital R.

[TrainofThought]

Thanks Nevada, you did a good job clarifying romance and Romance. It's sad to say, but I am an English major and they never went into explicit detail about the romances, or maybe I was sleeping. Your explanation was very good regarding genre section and Romance category. Now I get it, and can apply the proper genre to my book. Thank you for taking the time to read and sort through the confusion.

[wrinkles]

Good hearing from you. Over the years I, too, have gathered hundreds of ideas, thoughts, observations and have managed to jot most of them down on a couple of legal pads I keep for that purpose. Almost all of them come to me when I am driving alone or mowing the grass, also alone, and my conscious mind receeds into the background and whatever creative mind I may have is free to receive the inspiration dropping out of the sky.

Also over the years, I have started and abandoned several novels and a greater number of short stories. I have actually finished a total of one short, short story. I agonized over what to do with the jottings in my legal pads: write short stories, essays, linked short short stories, a novel? And if a novel, which ideas to use? Finally, I decided on three that seemed to have some significance and forced myself to abandon the rest to some later time and started writing.

However, the other ideas/thoughts/observations won't go away quietly. They keep intruding themselves in my writing and by the time I'm finished I estimate that I will have used up at least one of the two legal pads.

Well, that's my story about my story. Got to go now, I think the adults are coming back.

[Christine Lorang]

Diane, if you back that lime pie, take a better picture of it than this:
I'm sorry to say, I spent quite a while trying to guess what HConn's avatar photo was, and finally settled on "Alien Brain" :tongue

...but it's actually a Lime Pie, just like Uncle Jim's recipe? Unless it's actually a lime-flavored alien brain with tasty meringue crust?

[Ken Schneider]

All books are a mish-mosh of every genre.

Placing onus on one area or the other defines the genre.

I've read romances with a mystery plot tied in. But the onus of the story was placed on the main plot of two detectives falling in love while working the case. So, was this a mystery? Was it a romance?

What went on in the book while not working on the solving of the mystery? Did the two have dinner together, and shop, go to movies, kiss, cuddle?
Did the two continue to work on the case late into the night, take long looks at each other across the flat panel screen, and just happen to fall asleep head to head on the office sofa?

The first would be a romnace, with the subplot being solving a mystery.

The second a mystery, with a flirtatious attraction that may or may not come to pass.

In my opinion all books have most genres in them. The genre we write about most in the book defines it.

IMHO Ken

[aertep]

I'm sorry to say, I spent quite a while trying to guess what HConn's avatar photo was, and finally settled on "Alien Brain" :tongue

...but it's actually a Lime Pie, just like Uncle Jim's recipe? Unless it's actually a lime-flavored alien brain with tasty meringue crust?


Okay, I wasn't going to admit it, but I thought it was some kind of dangerous mushroom.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Good hearing from you. Over the years I, too, have gathered hundreds of ideas, thoughts, observations and have managed to jot most of them down on a couple of legal pads I keep for that purpose. Almost all of them come to me when I am driving alone or mowing the grass, also alone, and my conscious mind receeds into the background and whatever creative mind I may have is free to receive the inspiration dropping out of the sky.

Also over the years, I have started and abandoned several novels and a greater number of short stories. I have actually finished a total of one short, short story. I agonized over what to do with the jottings in my legal pads: write short stories, essays, linked short short stories, a novel? And if a novel, which ideas to use? Finally, I decided on three that seemed to have some significance and forced myself to abandon the rest to some later time and started writing.

However, the other ideas/thoughts/observations won't go away quietly. They keep intruding themselves in my writing and by the time I'm finished I estimate that I will have used up at least one of the two legal pads.

Well, that's my story about my story. Got to go now, I think the adults are coming back.

Wrinkles! Keep writing, keep writing, keep writing! :)

[bsolah]

All books are a mish-mosh of every genre.

Placing onus on one area or the other defines the genre.

I've read romances with a mystery plot tied in. But the onus of the story was placed on the main plot of two detectives falling in love while working the case. So, was this a mystery? Was it a romance?

What went on in the book while not working on the solving of the mystery? Did the two have dinner together, and shop, go to movies, kiss, cuddle?
Did the two continue to work on the case late into the night, take long looks at each other across the flat panel screen, and just happen to fall asleep head to head on the office sofa?

The first would be a romnace, with the subplot being solving a mystery.

The second a mystery, with a flirtatious attraction that may or may not come to pass.

In my opinion all books have most genres in them. The genre we write about most in the book defines it.

IMHO Ken

Ken, I've also read books that were marketed as crime thrillers, but the 'sub plot' of the romance took over and was almost a parallel plot.

[James D. Macdonald]

The publisher decides what logo to put on the spine, which tells the bookstore what section to shelve your book in, which is where they think it'll have the greatest sales.

The same book might be marketed as crime, romance, or literary ... depending one where the sales would be best. Don't worry about that. Worry about writing the best book you can.

[HConn]

That's the most tooth-achingly sweet alien brain/log fungus you're ever gonna taste.

[tjwriter]

Now see, I always thought it was a special rock or something geological that you were fond of.

[Christine Lorang]

That's the most tooth-achingly sweet alien brain/log fungus you're ever gonna taste.

Now I really have to make one.

[maestrowork]

I told you it was a testicle a long time ago... nobody listened.

[HConn]

I hope I'm a better writer than photographer.

[Rambling]

I want to add both a letter and an excerpt from a meta-book (imaginary) to my current story. However, as a reader I tend to skip letters and excerpts as inevitable information dumps (except in parodies, novel as collection of letters, etc). 'Yes, but mine won't be a boring and unnecesary info dump! It will be an entertaining and vital ... transmission of information,' sounds a little silly even to myself.

How do you balance "do whatever works, edit out whatever doesn't" with "You Are Not Different"?

I'm not planning on writing the Next Great second person present tense chose-your-own-adventure, but will sticking to close to tried and tested teach me little and make my writing bland?

[James D. Macdonald]

If you cut out the parts that the readers are going to skip anyway, you lose nothing.

You are not different: you have to do whatever works.

[Allynegirl]

Assignment Three DONE
Retype the first chapter of your favorite novel.

There were over 60 words ending in –ly
Bookisms
“Sorry,” he grunted
“Funny stuff on the news,” Mr. Dursley mumbled.
“So?” snapped Mrs. Dursley.
He chuckled and muttered, “I should have known.”
“It’s – it’s true?” faltered Professor McGonagall.
“You don’t mean – you can’t mean the people who live here?” cried Professor McGonagall
“A letter?” repeated Professor McGonagall faintly
“Is that where --?” whispered Professor McGonagall.
“Shhh!” hissed Professor McGonagall,
“S-s-sorry,” sobbed Hagrid,
“…or we’ll be found,” Professor McGonagall whispered
“Good luck, Harry,” he murmured.

There were 2 instances of quite.
Variations of “to be” (had, was, were, etc.) – too many to count
Italics were used as emphasis 24 times.

THING LEARNED – Rules can be broken if the story works. This chapter (and story and the 5 after it) works. I wanted to keep reading.

[aertep]

Allynegirl, I've been shocked of late how many published books are full of words ending in -ly, and all the other stuff you mentioned. It's heartening: if that stuff can get published, I feel like I've got a chance.

You're right, if the story works that's probably at least half the battle.

My favorite books are usually not best sellers, and those are the chapters I've been retyping. (There are exceptions: The Name of the Rose is next on my list.) This is a great exercise.

Been listening to audio books lately. I spend so much time in the car it's the only way to keep up with all the reading I want to do. I don't know if it's the best way to evaluate a novel, but it's one way. It compares to reading it out loud, only someone's reading it out loud *to* me. Hearing the rhythms, or lack thereof, is a revelation.

[Ken Schneider]

Grunted, mumbled, snapped,chuckled,muttered,whispered,hissed,sobbed, murmured.

Seriously?

[DamaNegra]

Grunted, mumbled, snapped,chuckled,muttered,whispered,hissed,sobbed, murmured.

Seriously?
Absolutely ;)

[paritoshuttam]

"Whispered" is relatively acceptable. How else would you show a character talking to someone else in a softer tone than normal? Of course too much of shhh-ing, hss-ing, and whispering will get on my nerves. :-)

[DamaNegra]

The one I'm having most trouble is 'mumble'. Often, mumble is everything but comprehensible, so how can a character mumble a comprehensive piece of dialogue? Unless, of course, I'm mistaken.

Chuckle is another one that really bugs me. Of course, I sometimes talk while I chuckle. But again, it is not really comprehensible because I'm doing to things at the same time.

The others don't bug me as much, because they're actually possible.

[HConn]

THING LEARNED – Rules can be broken if the story works. This chapter (and story and the 5 after it) works. I wanted to keep reading.

The actual lesson is that those rules are not all that important. Readers want a good story. Whether dialog is grumbled or sobbed is very low on the list of Stuff That Matters.

It's the story that matters. The rest is very pleasant window dressing.

[Ken Schneider]

"Whispered" is relatively acceptable. How else would you show a character talking to someone else in a softer tone than normal? Of course too much of shhh-ing, hss-ing, and whispering will get on my nerves. :-)

I was commenting on all of the dialogue tags. Ick.

He whispered.

How 'bout.

Bob leaned in close to Jenny's ear as so the others around the camp fire couldn't hear what he was saying. "I love you."

I would say this line denotes a quiet voice.

Or, not as good IMO.
"I love you," Bob whispered in Jenny's ear.

I try to avoid as many dialogue tags as possible.

Or,

Bob said in his most quiet voice. "I love you Jenny." Then, he looked at the others seated around the campfire to see if they had heard him. Jenny's eyes were wide open, and she had a smile on her face.

H/S/ said is still the best way to tag in my opinion. A little info prior to the dialogue can identify the tone used and can be worded in a way to avoid the dreaded tags.

By showing an emotion you can avoid most tags.

Betty's face turned red and she clenched her fist so tight her knuckles turned white. Billy backed away a few steps. "Billy Allen Taylor, come here."
What emotion is Betty dispalying without a tag?

"Billy Allen Taylor,come here," Betty said with anger in her voice.

Or worse, Betty said angrily,yelled, snapped, spat like venom, grumbled, hissed.

[James D. Macdonald]

Like any other spice, "said" words other than "said" should be applied with a light hand.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Like any other spice, "said" words other than "said" should be applied with a light hand.

"But why?" she hissed venomously. :ROFL:

[Allynegirl]

Two more assignments done:

Assignment Two
Go to a bookstore, watch readers selecting which books they want to buy.

Interesting differences in how people select their reading material. I only watched the people interested in fiction and there weren’t very many in those aisles at that tiem. One was looking for a particular author or title, and pulled the book, didn’t read the back or anything. Others I saw first looked at the cover, then read the back, then flip through the pages. Don’t know what they were looking for as they flipped. I smiled as I thought maybe they were looking for Page 147, but they didn’t stop to read any – just flipped.




Assignment Eight
Watch Minority Report and L.A. Confidential.
Minority Report: Whoa! Just when you thought you knew the ending, BAM, have another, then another.

L.A. Confidential: When this first came out, the advertising focused on the hookers that looked like moviestars. If they would have played up the twists, I probably would have wanted to watch it. Pretty cool movie, though after watching Minority Report, I figured out the twists. It also reminded me to some extent of Tango & Cash and Lethal Weapon with the two cops as opposite sides of a coin.

[aertep]

Bob leaned in close to Jenny's ear as so the others around the camp fire couldn't hear what he was saying. "I love you."

...

Or,

Bob said in his most quiet voice. "I love you Jenny." Then, he looked at the others seated around the campfire to see if they had heard him. Jenny's eyes were wide open, and she had a smile on her face.


Good examples, Ken. I hit a problem when I have an extended, whispered conversation. Too much dancing around it, i.e., "he put his lips to her ear" or "she looked over her shoulder to make sure no one was listening" is a lot less economical than "he said," or "she said," but then I wonder if my reader is aware that we're still whispering a page later, and if I should reiterate.

Or just cut.

Anyway, this is a fascinating conversation.

When I read, I notice the complete lack of dialogue tags almost as much as I notice too many. But I'm no judge of what's best anymore, because these days I can't even read a photo caption without being a critic. Someday I'll be able to just relax and read again. Right now I'm too much in learning mode.

[James D. Macdonald]

Someday I'll be able to just relax and read again.


Didn't anyone warn you? Becoming a writer ruins you as a reader.

[aertep]

Didn't anyone warn you? Becoming a writer ruins you as a reader.

Ha! I should have known. Being an actor ruined movies and theater for me for years, but I've finally learned to enjoy them again. I'm hoping I'll be able to love novels again someday, too. Right now, about the only thing I can get lost in is a good history book, and that's not a complaint.

[Allynegirl]

Assignment Four
Read The Sun, The Moon, and The Stars and Misery.
Misery (Stephen King 1987) is finished. I learned lots about writing, like plot, horror, climaxes, etc. King is in his element. No unnecessary gore, even though what he did describe made me anxious and turned my tummy a bit.

Chapter size was hilarious and all over the place. Some were pages long, others were only a paragraph.

Minor irritation was the story Paul was writing. Found it very difficult to stay in the story trying to read the manuscript with handwritten n’s, t’s and e’s. Although I couldn't care less about Misery herself, the examples of the manuscript and subsequent re-write of the first
chapter was interesting. I did smile when I saw underlining of words and used my newfound knowledge that it meant italics.

King confused me several times mentioning results of actions that had not been written about. Made me think I had missed something. He would then go back and tell about it a few paragraphs or chapters later. Irritating, but, fortunately, I got over it.

I found Misery to be a satisfying read, even though horror has not been my genre to read since I was in my teens (King, Straub, Koontz, and Saul were my favorites then).

Muse was the hole in the paper?

The Sun, The Moon and The Stars (Steven Brust 1987) is also finished. First of all, hat’s off to Uncle Jim for making this a reading assignment. I would have never read this book in a million years. Just goes to show – you can’t judge a book by its cover. You also cannot judge a book by its synopsis, dust jacket or introduction.

1) The front of the book says it is “a series of fantasy novels retelling classic tales" – the only fantasy tale I noted was related in sub-section 5 of each chapter about the Gypsies. At first, that was the only thing that kept me reading. By the end, I was far more interested in the story of the painter and what he was learning.

2) the sub-section headings confused me until I realized they were names of works of art.

3) Uncle Jim is right, art is art. The lessons learned by the painter apply equally to the writer, the photographer, the singer, and any other artist.

A few favorite quotes:

Page 144: “There are some paintings I’ve seen where I’ve said, ‘Well, it isn’t very good, but I like it. … There are lots and lots of paintings that make me go, ‘Well, it’s very good, but I don’t like it.’” Inspiration if I ever heard it.

Page 178: “Any art causes more pain than pleasure for the artist.” I have only begun to see the tip of the iceberg on the truth of this statement.

[Allynegirl]

Please say I haven't killed this thread. I am so cursed. :cry:

Assignment Nine
Read Red Harvest. Dashiell Hammett
Watch Yojimbo, Last Man Standing, A Fistful of Dollars, and Miller's Crossing.

Miller’s Crossing: Not my type of movie, but here goes. Found the speech hard to understand (accents, mumbling, etc.) which makes this type of movie hard to follow. If you can’t hear what they are saying then you can’t follow the crosses, double-crosses and triple-crosses. (Learned my lesson and used subtitles with the other movies.) In the end, I didn’t understand what the whole thing was about. He didn’t get the girl, he refused the job, a lot of people got killed and for what? The only thing he did get was $1,000 and paid off his gambling debt. My mind balks at the thought of all those people dying just for him to pay off his debt, even though I liked none of these characters enough to care that they died.


A Fistful of Dollars: I had seen this movie before, and Miller’s Crossing brought Dollars to my mind. After watching all these movies, I determined I liked A Fistful of Dollars the best. The bad guys were bad, Clint’s character was interesting, there wasn’t too much dialogue and the movie moved along at a good clip. Also, and what made it different from Miller’s Crossing, Clint’s character saved the girl and her family and came back to save the bartender.

Last Man Standing: Okay, out of the four movies this was a total bore. Yawn. Same premise as all the others. Too much dialogue. I felt no one should have left that town alive, except maybe the undertaker.

Yojimbo: Cool. A Japanese version of A Fistful of Dollars. Actually, I guess A Fistful of Dollars was the remake of Yojimbo which was Red Harvest made into a movie. I actually like Dollars better. In Yojimbo, the rivals were comical cowards. I got tired of seeing a gun being shot from a hand within a kimono. Let’s talk about realistically being able to shoot and hit anything with the gun basically plastered to your chest.

[Andrew Jameson]

Please say I haven't killed this thread. I am so cursed. :cry:

Heh. No, the rest of us are waiting for you to do the homework so we can crib off your answers. :)

[aertep]

Heh. No, the rest of us are waiting for you to do the homework so we can crib off your answers. :)

Okay, I admit I never actually did all the homework. I remember saying to myself, "Oh yeah, I saw Fistful of Dollars and Millers Crossing, I get what he means...." but not taking the trouble you've been taking, Allynegirl, because I was deep in my WIP and lurking more than participating. Bravo to you, and yeah, I'm cribbing off your answers like Andrew said.

[Ken Schneider]

The first paragraph from the first chapter of a book that I just finished reading. It took me a while to get around to this book, but it came to the top of the pile. I enjoyed it very much.

Quoted:
"Up on Graksha's bluff the air was cool, but by late afternoon the sun had warmed the bare rock to basking temperature. The wind that sighed and rustled through the trees on the slope below brought with it a smell of conifers, sharp and resinous, underlaid with the dry granite smell of the mountain itself. Jens Metadi-Jessan lay on his back half-dozing, his eyes closed against the brightness of the sky overhead, and heard the faint scrape of boot leather on stone as his cousin Faral shifted position a few feet away."

This first paragraph put me right there on that rocky mountain outcrop with these two boys.

Notice how the author introduced the main character right up front. In this opening paragraph you are given a good amount of information. You know the surroundings, you and I have smelled pine trees before, lay in the sun with a cool breeze blowing and the warmth of the sun on our face. The author made it easy for us to be in this place and see this place, because we can associate with the same things Jens and Faral are experiencing. The scene puts us in a peaceful state of mind.

You know something is going to break this serenity, and it does.

[Dru]

Hey, no cribbing from the teacher! You're the one who brought in the apple, all polished up, before class, weren't ya?

I will firmly resist any fanboy comments, and will simply note that UJ has even more "pull you in" starts in that series alone, at least IMHO. Of course finding said books can be a challenge, mine are getting worn.

and boy oh boy do things get topsy turvy!

[Nexusman]

Hmm...

I have a strange situation. In the first book I'm trying to get representation for (of the three-thousand book series I'm working on...) I have a recurring character that is never identified. In all the scenes she's in, she doesn't offer a name and ignores or dodges the question when asked, so there's never a "tag" for her. (She's identified in the second book I'm working on.) The prose is still sufficient to show when she's speaking or acting though. Is there any way to convey a name to the reader while still maintaining the "mysterious sorceress" character? (Or does it even matter?) She never opens a scene so I think if I do write it in, it would be author's intrusion, a minor fourth-wall breach, or both.

How often does this occur in fiction?

-Nick

[DamaNegra]

Nexusman, I had such a character now. As of now, he's identified as 'the old bloke', which works fine. But now he's revealed his name, which is Ilhuitemoc. Guess I'd better go back to calling him 'the old bloke' :D

[James D. Macdonald]

How often does this occur in fiction?



Often enough. Neither the Continental Op in Dashiel Hammet's stories, nor the English spy in Len Deighton's novels, ever gets a name, for example.

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh, as long as we're looking at first chapters of my books -- we just got the cover art for Land of Mist and Snow (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060819197/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/).

http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/mistsnow_med.jpg (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/Mistsnow1.htm)

I've posted the first chapter on-line at my web page (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/) (click on the cover). I might do a line-by-line on it here.

[Allynegirl]

UJ - what a cool lookin' cover. Makes me want to go buy it immediately, even though I'm not much for nautical tales (which I assume it is by the cover), but the authors' names are quite a selling point. And Yes, I know ... buy one, buy a dozen, they make great Christmas gifts. :tongue

Assignment Seventeen
Watch two particular episodes from X-Files and Millennium.
"Jose Chung's From Outer Space" Season 3 X-Files
"Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense" Season 2 Millennium
Those, too, tell the Truthiest Truth about being an author.

Alright, something I did without going to the library or the bookstore. I have these two TV series in their entirety. Woohoo. Very interesting and humorous. Poor, poor Mr. Chung. I like his bottle of JD next to his typewriter. I understood his lament at being a writer. I thought of UJ's advice earlier in this thread when Mr. Chung sat alone at his book-signing and felt sorry for him. I busted a gut at all the bleeping going on. Two thumbs up for entertainment and education.

[Nexusman]

Phew. Thanks, I guess I can drop my paranoia.

-Nick

[James D. Macdonald]

As far as descriptions, what we know about the Continental Op is that he's overweight. About the English spy, we know that he wears glasses.

And those only come up when it's relevant to the plot.

[Ken Schneider]

Though Jim was a Navy man himself, and knows the proper terms for sea going vessels, there is a mighty amount of research wrapped up in that first chapter.
One instance:
I'm a numismatist, so I know that Zinc and Copper are combined to make Bronze. So, we know that the cannons are Bronze, made of virgin Zinc and Copper. In the first chapter we've just been told that Zinc and Copper make up the metal Bronze. I know that the writer knows what he's talking about, because I know this tidbit of info. Some don't, and some don't care. Jim may or may not have known this until he researched bronze cannons, or maybe he did know before. Imagine if I'd have read the first chapter of M&S, and it said Bronze cannons made of virgin zinc and aluminum, heaven forbid, since aluminum wasn't discovered yet.

In a nutshell, some people know of what you write, you better know what you're talking about when you start getting technical.

The most important point injected into that first chapter, on three or four occasions, and what drives the reader toward chapter two, is, what about this ship the Nicodemus. I want to know what is so secretive and special about this new Man-o-war. I'll find out, of course, I've ordered my pre-order copy.

By the by, all sailing vessels in writing are Italicized, (If you ever intend to incorporate a ship into your wip.

Dru, Jim knows I'm not rubbing him up, he has, and will help me anytime I needed it. Just showing an example of how to draw the reader into a story by using normal everyday experiences that the reader can relate to, having just read the book.

Likewise, with Mists and Snow,write what you know. Jim knows about sea-going vessels, and it makes it easier for him to write about. But, he has a small problem that he has just started to address in the first chapter. Teaching us landlubers the terminology- meanings now, so he can continue to use them later in shorter form and not confuse the reader.

A luber is the piece of the compass on a ship that points the direction the front of the ship is going. Landluber, always on land pointing toward land.

Anyone care to tackle where the meaning, (shiver me timbers) came from?

[Grady]

ARRRRR! Could it be the bloody shaking of the ship's sides, Cap'in?
G-Man

[gp101]

UJ,

The first chapter of my WHIP is one long inciting incident (it's a crime novel). It's an action sequence (nothing like car chases or explosions, however), that clocks in at a reasonable nine pages, but it occurs five years in the past. Chap two starts in the "now" of the story. Chap one ends on the MC, while chap two starts with him, again, five years later in the "now". My problem is I hate my chapter transition. The MC does something sneaky in the first chap that resonates throughout the novel. I end chapter one (as of now) with "It worked great for five years. Then he got a visitor that changed everything."
And go into chap two.

I've changed the transition so many times. I've even tried different ones at the start of chapter two. No matter what, no matter where I put them, they all seem clunky. This one seems to be the clunkiest, most boring, most amateurish yet. I think I've reached the point where it's just glazing over me and I can't control it; kind of like a second baseman who all of a sudden can't throw a ball straight to first anymore. They end up being put in the outfield, or sent down to the minors. I'd like to avoid both.

I don't want it to be a prologue, *** I hate prologues myself and most readers skip 'em. Any non-clunky ways of pulling this off?

[Dru]

Ken,

I was just trying to give you a good natured ribbing, but tone can be hard to read sometimes. :flag:


It is a good example of how to set the reader up for the rest of the novel! The other Mageworld novels have similarly intriguing starts (,middles and ends), in case anyone else wants extra UJ novels to examine.

Likewise, beyond writing what you know, a good author can also make someone interested in the topic even if it is outside their ken or field of focus. I've a bad inner ear equilibrium, so boats and ships aren't exactly my favorite things, but at the end of LoM&S's first chapter, I want to know more about the MC, and where things are headed, even if spending time myself on one of the vessels would not be a happy event.

[James D. Macdonald]

I end chapter one (as of now) with "It worked great for five years. Then he got a visitor that changed everything."
And go into chap two.

Great first-chapter close. Cut "Then he got a visitor...."

Start off chapter two with the visitor knocking on his door. Continue from there, slow pace gradually picking up to the chapter two cliffhanger.

Get your copy of Magic and Showmanship and study the chapter on routining an act.

[LeeFlower]

This might be a bad idea, but my first instinct would be to open chapter two with the classic "FIVE YEARS LATER..."

[James D. Macdonald]

This might be a bad idea, but my first instinct would be to open chapter two with the classic "FIVE YEARS LATER..."

Probably not your best idea. We can get the idea that five years have passed in other, more subtle ways (which still advance plot, support theme, and reveal character).

Meanwhile ... back at the ranch ...

One reason for the sudden flurry on Mist and Snow is that we've just gotten the galleys back; we have 'til the 27th to read and correct them.

Here are the first two typeset pages (line by line anon):

In late January of 1863 I was an idler, assigned to the War Department office at 88 Whitehall Street in the city of New York after my ship, USS Tisdale, burned when the Rebels took Norfolk.

Time weighed heavily upon me. The war, which some had at first expected to be over in a matter of weeks -- or a few months at most -- would soon be entering its third year, and I could not fail to perceive that matters stood at a most perilous juncture. In the west, the free movement of our forces up and down the Mississippi still broke upon the rock that was Confederate-held Vicksburg; to the east and south, in the Atlantic and the Gulf of Mexico, Rebel commerce raiders and blockade runners ranged freely. Everywhere, my brother officers were gaining rank and experiencing sea-time, whether in gunboats on the inland waterways or in more conventional warships on the open seas, maintaining the blockade and chasing Confederate raiders.

Meanwhile, I sat filing papers in an obscure office. President Lincoln had freed all the slaves in Rebel territory. My daily hope was that some similar edict would arrive to free me from my own labors. From my window overlooking the harbor, I could watch the Navy's vessels come and go -- a species of keen torture, since I feared that such a long period of shore duty would see my career stalled, if not derailed entirely, the ultimate goal of command at sea forever placed beyond my reach.

So it was that on the morning of January 31st a messenger found me laboring at my desk, checking one long bureaucratic list against another. He had an envelope from the Navy Department in his hand, with my name on the front. I fairly tore the envelope from his grasp and opened it.

What it contained was indeed the answer to my nightly prayer. I was detached immediately from my current assignment and ordered to travel by fastest available means to the Naval Arsenal at Watervliet. There I was to inspect and take possession of a dozen ten-inch Rodman guns, thence to accompany them to the place where USS Nicodemus might lie, in order to take my position as head of her gunnery department. Nicodemus was new construction; I would be a plank owner. I was further informed that Nicodemus was even then being fitted out in preparation for her sea trials.

The remainder of the morning I spent in checking out of my temporary billet, drawing my health and pay records, and turning over my responsibilities to a hapless civilian clerk.

As usual, the game is this: Would you turn the page?

[rugcat]

Great first-chapter close. Cut "Then he got a visitor...."

With apologies to Uncle Jim, I would close with "Then he got a visitor." and cut "...and everything changed." See? You probably could get as many opinions as there are AW members.

[LeeFlower]

For what it's worth, UJ, I would turn the page. The voice is a bit different than what I'm used to seeing, but it seems to be working. Most important (to me at least) is that it passed the first-page BS Check, which distinguishes it from a lot of the nautical novels I pick up and bumps it instantly to the shortlist of books I should consider buying.

I'm a pretty easy sell on this sort of story, though... It's one of my favorite (sub?)genres.

[James D. Macdonald]

With apologies to Uncle Jim, I would close with "Then he got a visitor."

This comes precious close to telling when you could be showing.

"It worked great for five years," is a version of "what with this and that some five years passed," which is valid.

[LloydBrown]

I would turn the page. At this rate, I'd give it a few chapters.

However, I've read better period language, and that's important to me in historical fiction. You can't avoid the comparison to Turtledove, which is unfortunate because he's outstanding in that area.

Specifically, the phrase "more conventional warships" struck me as awkward. On second read, I can't find anything else that stands out. Sorry; wish I could offer more concrete feedback.

[James D. Macdonald]

This is going to be a bit different from the usual, because I know a bit more about what was going on in the author's mind. So I'll indulge a bit.

In late January of 1863 I was an idler, assigned to the War Department office at 88 Whitehall Street in the city of New York after my ship, USS Tisdale, burned when the Rebels took Norfolk.

We start off with a super-sentence -- a single-sentence paragraph. I'm trying to set a 19th century voice, a more florid and leisurely narrative style than is common now. Thus "of 1863" rather than plain "1863," and "city of New York" rather than "New York City." (Alas, I was unable to convince either my co-author nor the editor that New-York should properly be hyphenated.)

The War Department building was, indeed, at 88 Whitehall St, New York City. This had personal meaning for me -- I'd been there, back when it was still in its Civil War dress; it's where I got my induction physical when I joined the Navy, so I know exactly what it looked like and where it is situated, and what you could see from its windows. I didn't actually describe it in the novel, but the fact I could still see (and smell) it -- helped me out.

This paragraph is setting the scene, and filling in details of the American Civil War for folks who slept through history class.

This also brings me to my first large whopper: there was no USS Tisdale involved in the American Civil War. The name actually belongs to a WWII destroyer escort. There are several compressions here, too: the Union burned the Gosport Shipyard in Portsmouth when the Rebels took Norfolk in 1861, shortly after the attack on Fort Sumter. The Rebels burned the same navy yard in 1862, when the Federals retook Norfolk. The first burning of the Gosport yards left USS Merrimack burned to the waterline; she was later raised and converted into CSS Virginia (famous for fighting USS Monitor in the Battle of Hampton Roads).

The Battle of Hampton Roads would have taken place a year before the events in the story we're telling here; it's never mentioned. That's because in this world (an alternate history/secret history), it never took place. Instead, the duel between two unusual ships forms the core of our story. So where we are in the first paragraph: A ship that never existed is named, while a battle that actually took place is not. Still, the shadow of the Monitor and the Merrimack lies long across our tale. We're in 1863 in order to allow time for events in our story to have unfolded. 1862 wouldn't have allowed enough time to pass after the start of the war to do everything that I had to do, as will be revealed in the course of the narrative. (The other Civil War ship duel that's heavily referenced is CSS Alabama vs. USS Kearsarge, two more vessels that are never mentioned, even though they were both active during this period.)

History is the fantasy author's secret weapon; those are the sources I'm using.

I trust that the term "idler" is obvious from context; it's someone who doesn't stand watches.


Time weighed heavily upon me.

After that super-sentence, a short sentence for rhythm.

The war, which some had at first expected to be over in a matter of weeks -- or a few months at most -- would soon be entering its third year, and I could not fail to perceive that matters stood at a most perilous juncture.

For the folks who hadn't stayed awake in American History.


In the west, the free movement of our forces up and down the Mississippi still broke upon the rock that was Confederate-held Vicksburg; to the east and south, in the Atlantic and the Gulf of Mexico, Rebel commerce raiders and blockade runners ranged freely.

More brief history -- enough so the readers will know what's going on. The hunt for blockade runners and raiders forms most of the rest of the book. (Vicksburg will be mentioned again in the last chapter.)

Everywhere, my brother officers were gaining rank and experiencing sea-time, whether in gunboats on the inland waterways or in more conventional warships on the open seas, maintaining the blockade and chasing Confederate raiders.

Motive and discontent for our narrator. Reveals him to be an ambitious man. So ends this paragraph, again with a very long sentence. Our narrator will soon be at sea in a very unconventional warship.

Meanwhile, I sat filing papers in an obscure office.

Short sentence for rhythm. Alliteration for emphasis. The ambition theme again.

President Lincoln had freed all the slaves in Rebel territory.

On 1 January 1863, thirty days before the narrative commences. A bit more history, and anchoring to time.


My daily hope was that some similar edict would arrive to free me from my own labors.

Ambitious, self-centered, given to exageration.

From my window overlooking the harbor, I could watch the Navy's vessels come and go -- a species of keen torture, since I feared that such a long period of shore duty would see my career stalled, if not derailed entirely, the ultimate goal of command at sea forever placed beyond my reach.

Back to the very long sentences, the ship theme pointed up. As far as torture goes, he isn't really being tortured. Certainly not in the same way as the slaves he compares himself with in the previous sentence. We're also setting up the ending here -- John Nevis will get command at sea before this book is over. Foreshadowing the climax, right on page one. End of paragraph, a position of power.

So it was that on the morning of January 31st a messenger found me laboring at my desk, checking one long bureaucratic list against another.

Finally, our story is about to start. Something happens. (Also, fixing the date. Dates are going to be important from now on.) Some attitude toward his job. This was, in fact, a Saturday morning. But then, the five-day work week wasn't invented until 1908, and didn't go nation-wide until 1940.

He had an envelope from the Navy Department in his hand, with my name on the front. I fairly tore the envelope from his grasp and opened it.

Now that we're out of setup the sentences are shorter, to speed up the pace. 19th century word choice and word order.

What it contained was indeed the answer to my nightly prayer.

Our narrator is the sort of person who says his prayers every night. This is, in fact, an important plot point, and will be repeated several times. LT Nevis had been chosen for one quality; and he was (though he does not know it) stashed at 88 Whitehall St. to make sure he didn't get his silly head blown off, so that he can serve his purpose on board his new ship. He'll learn that sometimes you don't want to have your prayers answered.

I was detached immediately from my current assignment and ordered to travel by fastest available means to the Naval Arsenal at Watervliet.

I have no idea if that's how orders read in the 19th century, but that's sure how they read today. There was, and is, a naval arsenal at Watervliet (just north of Albany, along the Hudson).

There I was to inspect and take possession of a dozen ten-inch Rodman guns, thence to accompany them to the place where USS Nicodemus might lie, in order to take my position as head of her gunnery department.

Super-sentence. Much longer than my usual, but again, I feel, necessary for the impression of pre-Hemingway prose. Much of this language is cribbed from the standard phrases in modern Naval orders.

There was no USS Nicodemus, either. Rodmans were a variety of cannon, very similar to the earlier Dahlgrens (which USS Monitor and USS Kearsarge mounted). Climax technology for smoothbore muzzle-loaders. The name Nicodemus comes from an Abolutionist song, "Wake Nicodemus." While it was important to me to know this, the readers don't need to know, and are never told. Nicodemus is a Biblical name; Nicodemus the Pharisee was associated in John with the phrase "born again," and the Gospel of Nicodemus (an apocryphal Gospel) tells about the Harrowing of Hell (another theme in this book). Nicodemus is involved in the spirit, and water. Spirits and water are going to be themes.

Nicodemus was new construction; I would be a plank owner.

A definition demanded by my co-author who argued that civilians wouldn't have a clue what a plank owner was. Verges on as-you-know-Bob dialog.

I was further informed that Nicodemus was even then being fitted out in preparation for her sea trials.

It's the exposition. It has to go somewhere.

The remainder of the morning I spent in checking out of my temporary billet, drawing my health and pay records, and turning over my responsibilities to a hapless civilian clerk.

What with this and that some hours passed. More insistence on paperwork. (Books, papers, manuscripts, orders, logs ... writing will form a major theme. ) "Clerk" is braced up with two adjectives, partly to show our narrator's attitude, partly to show how trivial his assignment had been up to now. But mostly to get "clerk" noticed. "Clerk" is a form of "cleric." Until now our lad had been acting as a cleric.

Purely by chance, page two ends with the end of that paragraph.

[gp101]

Great first-chapter close. Cut "Then he got a visitor...."

Start off chapter two with the visitor knocking on his door. Continue from there, slow pace gradually picking up to the chapter two cliffhanger.

Get your copy of Magic and Showmanship and study the chapter on routining an act.


[lightbulb goes off over head] Thanks, UJ. I'm going with your suggestion. One other thing: chap one is omni POV, while chap 2, and the rest of the novel for that matter, is 3rd person head-hopping galore (but no hopping within scenes, of course). Is that awkward or jarring in general? I feel it serves my story, but am open to your opinion.

PS Was frustrated to find your "The Apocalypse Door" is out of stock at Amazon. That's my kind of reading. The B&N nearest me is gone forever. Any other online suppliers for this novel? Also found "The High King's Daughter" out of stock. Ba$tards! Did manage to order "School of Wizardy" however. Look forward to when Mist is available. And again, many thanks to your help.

[James D. Macdonald]

You can get a copy here: http://product.half.ebay.com/The-Apocalypse-Door_W0QQprZ1696625QQtgZinfo

[wrinkles]

Over the course of reading this thread I came across Uncle Jim's principle of words needing to "advance plot, reveal character or support theme" numerous times. This was a valuable insight to me, since I was worried that my already-in-progress WIP contained a lot of narrative that did not advance the plot. I felt better when I knew that advancing the plot is not the sole justification for observations, descriptions, scenes, inclusion of minor characters or subplots. I now write easier when these components insert themselves into my writing. And they do constantly.

One reason I intially included them, even though I thought I might be making a mistake, was my remembrance of "Fargo", one of my all-time top ten favorite movies. And one of my favorite components (I don't know what else to call it) of that movie was the sad story of Mike Yanagita: one of Sheriff Margie's classmates who called her from the twin cities after hearing her name mentioned in connection with the murders up in Brainerd.

I've probably watched this movie twenty times and this small part of it never ceases to amaze me with its richness and insight. But I never knew why, because it does not advance the plot. I just knew that it was very interesting and enjoyable. Now I know why: it supports the theme extremely well and, to me, the movie would be slightly less great without it.

What I am writing isn't even within hollering distance of "Fargo", but now when small stories or observations or even subplots appear that seem to make the work richer, I include them if they reveal character or support the theme, even if they don't advance the plot.

[ted_curtis]

UJ,

Thanks for walking us through the first two pages. It's really good to see how you intended all the pieces to fit together, and to see the subtle hints that suggest theme and character that are there from the very beginning.

[gp101]

This might be a bad idea, but my first instinct would be to open chapter two with the classic "FIVE YEARS LATER..."

That's actually the one option I wanted to avoid most.

[gp101]

You can get a copy here: http://product.half.ebay.com/The-Apocalypse-Door_W0QQprZ1696625QQtgZinfo


Thanks. Just ordered King's Daughter and Apocalypse. My reading slots should be full now thru August.

[HConn]

I would turn the page.

[Allynegirl]

UJ, I would turn the page too.

Okay, Assignment Fifteen
Diagram a sentence from A Visit From St. Nicholas.

Away to the window I flew like a flash, tore open the shutters and threw up the sash.

I think I did this right, but it has been 20+ years since I diagramed a sentence. Unfortunately, I cannot get the diagram to show up here.

"I" was on the line alone in front of the separation bar between a 3-pronged verb: "flew," "tore" and "threw."

"Away" was on a diagonal line under "flew" and the preposition "to" was on another with "window" on the horizonal and "the" on a diagonal under "window." "Like" was on a diagonal under "flew" with "flash" on a horizonal and "a" on a diagonal under "window."

"Open" was on a diagonal under "tore." After "tore" was a vertical with "shutters" and "the" on a diagonal under "shutters."

"And" was on a vertical, dotted line connecting "tore" and "threw."

"Up" was on a diagonal under "threw." After "threw" was a vertical with "sash" and "the" on a diagonal under "sash."

Am I right? My head hurts.

[James D. Macdonald]

A far more interesting sentence from A Visit From Saint Nicholas is:

As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
When they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky,
So up to the house-top the coursers they flew,
With the sleigh full of toys, and St. Nicholas too.

[Allynegirl]

Mid-book of my YA has arrived <sarcasm on> YIPEE! <sarcasm off>

My BIC time is taken up with staring at the screen and saying "type something, anything, even crap" over and over again - fingers don't move, previously written paragraphs call to me longing to be re-written over and over.

I tell the kids - Mom's working on her book, don't bother me except for emergencies. Every 10 minutes or less, one of them shows up to see "how I am doing," "I want to be with Mommy," "Can I read what you've written?" With grace and finesse (screaming and threats), they finally get the hint. Then the dogs start barking wanting to go out and do their business and the kids are either deaf to it or wanting to see how long Mommy will let it go on before she goes on a rampage.

I can't even enjoy my current UJ Assignment: "Twenty-Three - Pick a genre and read award winning novels for the last 10 years." The current book I am reading (Cimarron Rose by James Lee Burke) has so many similies and metaphors (obscure ones at that) and confusing dialogue that I am constantly being thrown out of the story.

I just want to:flag: .

[James D. Macdonald]

I have a sign on my office door:

No, I don't know what's for dinner. I don't care what's on TV. Unless someone is actively bleeding, vomiting, or unconscious, I don't want to hear about it.

A change of scene sometimes helps. Is there a coffeeshop or library nearby where you can go plunk yourself down, either for reading or writing?

[LeeFlower]

Back at school, I used the 'sign on the door' trick too. The only problem with that in my case is that it occasionally backfires. I'll come out of my room for a snack break and one of my hallmates will go "what are you doing? go finish your book."

Allynegirl, I don't know if this will help, but when I get really stuck like that, I find that allowing myself to rewrite/revise only the last page (or scene) of the MS can help. I read it and revise as I go, and then once I get to the bottom, I start adding new content.

Good luck getting going again!

[Allynegirl]

By the way, "The Historian" is told in the first person, but there are several "first persons" telling the story, and most of them are not female.

Here I am trying to catch up to the end of this thread and I come across this lightbulb moment. I don't ever remember reading a book in first person that ever moved that 1st person view to someone else. hmmm, interesting. I had already thought about changing my YA WIP from 3rd person ominscient (sp?) to 1st person, since the 3 books I have read in the Mystery genre (Assignment 23) have all been in 1st person.

I so love this thread. :)

[jdparadise]

on "Then he got a visitor," I go with UJ; "It worked great for five years," [end chapter] leaves the reader wondering "and THEN what?" which is a nice place to occasionally leave a reader at the end of a chapter.

On UJ's excerpt, alas, I would not have turned the page. It's nothing "wrong" with the writing or the setup; rather, the character and situation didn't particularly catch me, and the voicing got me thinking it was going to be too much work to get through a book that led with two pages I didn't particularly engage with.

Not to say ten million other people won't utterly groove on it; just didn't catch -me-...

-j

[allenparker]

The first two pages engaged me for a different reason. The writing was definitely Northern bent. it had a feel and sound of a Yankee telling the story.

Living most of my life in the South, it first raised the small hairs on the back of my neck, but I later decided that there is too little time to argue.

I did have a hesitation with the ship names and the dates. Jim's explanation was sufficient to cause me to want to see the rest.

ETA:

Sign on my door reads: Grumpy Infantryman. Knock if you are done with life.

[James D. Macdonald]

I don't ever remember reading a book in first person that ever moved that 1st person view to someone else.

You might check out Frankenstein: It's first person, but it's three nested first persons: Robert Walton (the Arctic explorer) in first person relating the first-person narrative of Victor Frankenstein, who relates the first-person narrative of the Creature.

You can do anything at all, provided you do it well. Your readers will tell you if you've done it well.

Epistolary novels in general have multiple first-person viewpoint characters.

[HoosierCowgirl]

Oh, say, a lot of Dr. Doolittle books were like that ... the sea-turtle telling the Push-me-PUll-you a first-person version of what was going on, the whole punctuated like this " ' " for chapters and chapters.

Ann

[paritoshuttam]

Here I am trying to catch up to the end of this thread and I come across this lightbulb moment. I don't ever remember reading a book in first person that ever moved that 1st person view to someone else. hmmm, interesting.

I am not 100% sure about this, but I think Faulkner's As I Lay Dying is told in a series of chapters, and each chapter is in first-person narration of a different character. (Well, not all chapters are in different characters' voices; they have to repeat after a while.)

- Paritosh

[Allynegirl]

Thanks UJ and Paritosh. I have added those two books to my ever-growing reading list. Now it is time to start those Assignments I hate the most -- memorization. :e2bummed:

ETA - I finally made it to the end of this thread. WooHoo for me! Now I can start BIC without the temptation to read this thread instead.

[Patricia]

Well, I just two days ago 'attempted' to read a novel, first person total 1853 Carolina hillbilly narrative and dialogue. The author slips into some 'proper grammar' at times, which was worse than good grammar with occasional poor.

The story premise is actually good, but I can't say for sure, because if it is possible for such a thing to happen, reading the darn thing made me tired. I just couldn't handle the single spaced small font continual narrative and dialogue jargon. I was actually curious as to what happened to the characters, but couldn't take the read. I tossed it.

The author is a celeb of sorts and claims first hand knowledge of some of the content as passed down treasures.

On the other hand, I had before that one, finished a book that the story line was fair, and the premise good, a little boring. But the seasoned author head hopped so smoothly, that I wasn't clearly aware he was doing it, until I noticed all the little sets of 3 font bullets that denoted scene and or character change. It was a good learning tool.

ETA: Sorry everyone, the point I meant to make. I don't anticipate either of these problems with Jim's book. As far as writing "time" I should have been finished long ago with WIP.
I ramble around alone in a 3 BR 2B home, with two lap tops. I've been doing fast track the last couple of weeks since my release from PA--I think that even those of us who have a lot of time, can be waylaid by some things and have to practice a certain amount of discipline. I've promised myself 6 hours a day to BIC

[gp101]

Thanks again, UJ and jdparadise, and the others. I've gone with that particular chapter-ending line. Over the course of the last few days, the more I read it, the more it seems the right way to end the chapter.

UJ, I read your comments as to why you no longer crit peoples' material in SYW, and can understand why. But if anyone else here would like to read it and let me know if the whole piece works with that last line, you can find it here:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35854


UJ, if it's inappropriate (I hope it isn't) to post such a request of others in your thread, my apologies, and please feel free to delete this, or PM me so that I delete it, whichever is easier.

[James D. Macdonald]

Sell just the one book. That book needs to have a beginning, a middle, and an end.

If that first book doesn't sell it won't have any sequels.

I originally posted that a year ago.

Just recently I was chatting with an editor at Major New York Publisher (and not the one you're thinking of, either). The editor said, "I'm sick of trilogies! I never want to see another trilogy! If you can't tell your story in one book I don't want to see it!"

Or words to that effect.

Perhaps it had been a trying day in the slush mines. (Interestingly enough, this editor works on a line that only takes agented manuscripts. But there is such a thing as agented slush.)

[Nangleator]

In my opinion, the first book in a trilogy should stand perfectly well on its own. (This probably applies to the other two books, too.)

[rugcat]

Just recently I was chatting with an editor at Major New York Publisher (and not the one you're thinking of, either). The editor said, "I'm sick of trilogies! I never want to see another trilogy! If you can't tell your story in one book I don't want to see it!"

I understand a lot of editors feel this way. But a "series character" where each book is a stand-alone and subsequent volumes keep the same cast of characters with a different plot is, I think, a different story. Many editors are on the lookout for a book with that potential, since readers can be very loyal to a particular cast of characters, esp in mysteries and urban fantasy.

[James D. Macdonald]

Where have all the fantasists gone?
Long time passing....
Where have all the fantasists gone?
Long time ago....
Where have all the fantasists gone?
Gone to trilogies every one.
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn.

[Cathy C]

I laugh, because we just turned in the second manuscript in our . . . trilogy! :roll: Maybe we need to make it four books instead.

;)

Continue on, while I chuckle for a bit.

[Liam Jackson]

I wasn't interested in a trilogy. Instead, I wanted to write a single book of approximately 412K. When the publisher nixed that notion, the story was developed to evolve over several books, exceeding the original 412k count. Eventually, the publisher decided he wanted multiple trilogies. I've always suspected marketing weighed in heavily on the idea of the trilogy.

[James D. Macdonald]

I think we'll start seeing a lot fewer trilogies starting in 2008 or so.

[Nexusman]

Got a good prediction for 3+ series?

-Nick

[paritoshuttam]

I laugh, because we just turned in the second manuscript in our . . . trilogy! :roll: Maybe we need to make it four books instead.

;)

Continue on, while I chuckle for a bit.

As Douglas Adams writes about the Hitchhikers': a trilogy in four parts!

[Sharon Mock]

Just the other day I was grousing to my writers' group about my propensity for stand-alone novels, and how I was probably going to have to discipline myself into writing a trilogy or series. (Not until after the novel lurking just over the horizon, though!)

Don't get me wrong. I've heard editors say they're looking for stand-alones. Then Naomi Novik takes the field by storm, and I start thinking maybe there's something to this whole series thing. (Of course, being brilliant helps -- I haven't read the books, but judging by the amount and quality of the enthusiasm, I can tell the books are pretty darn good.)

[James D. Macdonald]

I"ll be on the radio, talking about publishing, publishing scams, vanity presses, and PublishAmerica.

6 August 2006, noon to one pm Central Daylight Time. On http://www.am990.com (http://www.am990.com/) for streaming feed. 990 on your AM dial if you happen to be in the Memphis, Little Rock (Arkansas), and Jackson (Tennessee) area.

Special treat: We've dug up a PublishAmerica author who likes PublishAmerica!

[LloydBrown]

I"ll be on the radio, talking about publishing, publishing scams, vanity presses, and PublishAmerica.

At least it's only one topic.

[wrinkles]

I'm old enough to belong to AARP, and when, after all these years, I started writing my novel (probably my first and last) I used a colon before quotes as in:

Roy looked up at the rapidly enlarging meteor and said: "Purty, ain't it."

But after looking in a few current novels I saw that all writers nowadays use a comma after "said" in this situation. Am I right in assuming that the comma has taken the place of the colon in dialogue and I was just being old school, or is there a circumstance when a colon is still used?

[DamaNegra]

What's wrong with the colon? I use it in those situations, commas just seem weird and go against everything I learned in school.

(but then again, my spanish teacher tried to teach me that queso was written as 'quezo', so don't mind my education much)

[HapiSofi]

I'm no spring chicken, and when I was in high school, "comma before quote" was in the SATs. It's pretty much standard usage.

[DamaNegra]

Really?? That's weird, because I was always taught an entirely different thing. In fact, I thought that was pretty much the usage of the colon, but now that I think of it, I can't recall what the usage of the colon is :D I can use it and stuff, but I can't explain it.

Interesting.

[James D. Macdonald]

Puctuation around dialog is heavily nation-and-language dependent. Dama, if I recall correctly you're in Mexico?

Regardless of what you do, be consistent. And make darned sure you're telling a compelling story.

[DamaNegra]

Hmmm, UJ, you have a point. Yes, I'm in Mexico, so that might have a lot to do. I've always been quite puzzled at American punctuation in books, actually.

But still, I don't think those little punctuation issues are that important. Now, if you started using comas or colons instead of periods, you may start worrying ;)

[DamaNegra]

Ok, so today I printed out the whole UJ thread because my attention span when reading on screen is 0 and, anyway, I don't 'get' things as well as if I read them on paper. So now I have a question:

Don't couple destructive things with you writing. If you light up a cigarette when you start writing, if you quit smoking you'll find you can't write any more.

Same with drinking booze. Same with eating bon-bons. Coupling bad habits with writing will mean that you'll never be able to shed the bad habits.

Ok, I get the point. But what about perfectly harmless habits, like drinking coffee or tea? I don't drink either, but I drink something similar called mate. Is this a bad thing too?

[LeeFlower]

Dama, as someone who went through a month of fatigue, migraines, insomnia, and debilitating nausea trying to kick a caffine habit, I submit that caffine is not actually harmless. It might not be nearly as bad for you as smoking or drinking to excess, but it's still a physical addiction.

But I think the point is just that habits can get linked to writing, and that's generally a bad thing. In the bon-bons case, what if the writer decides to diet? What if the coffee machine breaks or something? It's a given that writing requires tools-- pen and paper, computer, tape recorder... whatever. Everyone's been in a place at least once where they'd love to do some writing, but don't have anything to write on. It seems silly to add another object to the list of things you need to have around before you can write.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Not that rituals can't be useful. Sometimes, having a series of things that reliably put you in "writing mind" can be a good thing. But I think it should be a springboard to other associations, not a lifelong need.

For instance, when I was in college, I had a strong ritual association for writing that involved waking up at 6, brewing coffee, lighting a candle and some incense, and putting on a particular bit of music. I did all that, and then I did my writing, and then I went to my 8:00 class. It worked very well, but it was only a springboard to developing a simpler, more effective association: waking up at 6 and writing.

Bad habits can be strong associations too. There's this one cafe in Boulder that for me has become strongly associated with meaning to write but actually spending about 4 hours on blogs and fora. I need to fix that glitch in my head and reassign (reallocate?) the association.

[Nexusman]

I have an extremely strange writing ritual. I look for "themes" to write by (usually short instrumentals ranging from ninety seconds to eight minutes) for certain books and stories. I can't write without the right theme. I could never get in the mood for writing one story I had, the words just didn't appear on the screen the way they normally do. Turns out I had the wrong theme. I think it's a strange way of getting in the proverbial zone.

-Nick

[bsolah]

In one sense, rituals can be a bad thing because you become I attached. I agree with that. On the other hand, as Nicole described, rituals can be a way of getting people to write on a regular basis. Consistency has been my main problem with realizing my writing aspirations and maybe I need a ritual or two to get me going.

[James D. Macdonald]

What I'm saying is that if something's a bad habit that you're eventually going to want to kick, don't associate it with your writing. Lighting a candle doesn't cause heart attacks, cancer, or cirrhosis.

[Bayou Bill]

Just a IMHO-type thought about colons and quotation marks.

My understanding is colons (and to a lesser estent, semi-colons) are currently out of favor in fiction. Using a colon to indicate the beginning of a quote is best reserved for business communications.

Of course, some modern writers avoid the question by using no punctuation to indicate quotations. Me, I hate that.

note: The deal with semi-colons appears to be a preception that agents and editors tend to prefer two short sentences over a single long one.

All that aside, the prime directive isn't, as I understand things, to do like our English teachers taught us or even what's trendy, but to be consistent and, most of all, tell a good story.

Bayou Bill :cool:

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

What I'm saying is that if something's a bad habit that you're eventually going to want to kick, don't associate it with your writing. Lighting a candle doesn't cause heart attacks, cancer, or cirrhosis.Just, y'know, stay away from the ones with lead in the wicks. Those SUXX0R.

[James D. Macdonald]

Very few people know how to use semicolons correctly.

Don't confuse your readers. Don't knock them out of the story while they're trying to figure out what this particular set of black marks on white paper means. Sure, you can replace quote marks and other punctuation marks with one dingbat or another, but why?

Oh, while we're here: a lovely review of a literary novel (http://www.pathetic-caverns.com/books/h/stewart_home.html).

[bsolah]

I always thought the sem-colon was used to continue on the same thought when it was time to end a sentence, or something like that.

As for the colon, I usually use it to denote text or signs.

EG. Jim looked at the sign. It read: No trespassing!

[Ken Schneider]

Likewise, serial commas are falling to the wayside.

Jim, me, harry, sally.

Jim and sally and harry, and me. Seriously. At least in journalism.

Semicolons:

A semicolon is used when a more significant break in conntinuity then that indicated by a comma is called for but a knew sentence is not desired. Some authorities say that a semicolon is now rare and should be avoided. If a comma and conjunction won't do the job in most cases, it is probably wise to use a period and start a new sentence.

But, I give an example.

A semicolon is used in compound sentences between independant clauses not joined by connectives, particularly if they are extended or have commas within them.

The weather was hot Tuesday; however, even though the sky was cloudy, no rain seemed on the way to give relief.

John, the third boy to get his award, give it to his mother, who was standing beside him; she broke into tears.

It's obvious that either sentence could be made into two separate sentences.

Sentences with a semicolon are independant clauses that in some way relate to the first part,or last part of the sentence.

See you all after vacation. You have a one week sabatical from my ramblings.
Ken

[DamaNegra]

What I'm saying is that if something's a bad habit that you're eventually going to want to kick, don't associate it with your writing. Lighting a candle doesn't cause heart attacks, cancer, or cirrhosis.

Right then, I can keep on drinking mate!!!

Yerba Mate (pronounced "yerba mahtay") is a medicinal and cultural drink of ancient origins. Introduced to the world by the Guarani Indians of South America, Mate contains ingredients that help keep its drinkers healthy and energetic.

Energize The Body
Stimulate Mental Alertness
Aid Weight Loss
Cleanse The Colon
Gentle Diuretic
Accelerate Healing Process
Relieve Stress
Calm Allergies
Fortify Immune System
Increase Longevity


As for the semicolon/colon thing, correct me if I'm wrong but it has very little impact on the story as a whole. I mean, if you've got a great story, does it really matter if you used ; instead of : and viceversa? I mean, it's not like writing their instead of there, or spelling country as cauntry. It's a lesser mistake that can easily be corrected to the likes of the editor, so why worry about it?

[James D. Macdonald]

As far as colons and semicolons: no, they aren't as important as other bits of grammar, but yes, they are important. Strive to use them correctly; you'll be rewarded. I don't see any advantage in abusing any of your tools.

As to the serial comma, I'm a believer. Without the serial comma we get barbarisms such as I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God.

Others may not believe in the serial comma and house style will overrule you. Just be consistent.

[blacbird]

I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God.

This poor child!

caw.

[DamaNegra]

I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God.

I agree this is a barbarity!! I mean, it seems like it's being dedicated to Ayn Rand (just one person) and God. Sheesh.

Just the other day I was cruising through a blog. Seeing the way people write I'm not surprised 90%+ of the slushpile never makes publication. Awful, just plain awful.

[Nexusman]

Given the flow of the topic I feel compelled to share this:


Dear John,

I want a man who knows what love is all about. You are generous, kind, thoughtful. People who are not like you admit to being useless and inferior.
You have ruined me for other men. I yearn for you. I have no feelings whatsoever when we're apart. I can be forever happy - will you let me be yours?

Gloria

Dear John,

I want a man who knows what love is. All about you are generous, kind, thoughtful people, who are not like you. Admit to being useless and inferior.
You have ruined me. For other men, I yearn. For you, I have no feelings whatsoever. When we're apart, I can be forever happy. Will you let me be?

Yours,

Gloria


-Nick

[DamaNegra]

Reading back on this thread, I realize I don't understand what a theme is.

Could someone please explain?

[Bayou Bill]

The serial comma is still given preference by the Chicago Manual of Style.

However, the AP Stylebook is anti-serial comma. The AP’s goal is a cleaner look for newsprint. IMHO, there is no logical reason to not use serial quotes in short stories and novels.

Bayou Bill :cool:

[DamaNegra]

I'll ask this again.

Can someone please explain exactly what is a theme??

[Bayou Bill]

I'll ask this again.

Can someone please explain exactly what is a theme??
Probably not. However, this definition, taken in part from the Tameri Guide to Writing site. is about as clear and concise as I've come across:

Stories are written for a reason. Most convey a lesson or “greater meaning” to the reader. That is the theme.

Bayou Bill :cool:

[Andrew Jameson]

Well, I'll give it a whack. I'm sort of nervous 'cause this'll probably wind up being a long-winded explanation that only makes partial sense, and them Uncle Jim will come along with a one-sentence explanation that's crystal clear, and then I'll feel foolish.

Anyway.

Theme is what the book is About.

Not in the sense of plot, which is what the characters *do*, but more about what the character's actions *mean.* The moral of the story, in a way, although that's an oversimplification. A book can be About the evils of slavery, or About love truly conquering all, or About how power can corrupt even good men.

In a book with a strong theme, the character's actions will reinforce the theme multiple times: subtly in some places, overtly in others.

Does that help at all?

[James D. Macdonald]

Theme, like so much else in writing, is something that I can only define by example.

Earlier on I offered this, in re Dickens' A Christmas Carol:


Plot: Scrooge is visited by four increasingly scary spirits. Story: A sinner is redeemed. Theme: Charity.

[Andrew Jameson]

See? :(

[jules]

The serial comma is still given preference by the Chicago Manual of Style.

Rather unsurprisingly, the Oxford Manual of Style is also in favour. :)

[Bayou Bill]

Rather unsurprisingly, the Oxford Manual of Style is also in favour. :)I'd forgotten that. Many thanks, Jules.

Bayou Bill :cool:

[Allynegirl]

See? :(

:Hug2:

[James D. Macdonald]

On bad habits and writing -- from the folksong Nottingham Ale (tune is Lilliburlero):


Ye poets who pray on the Hellican brook
The nectar of Gods and the juice of the vine,
You say none can write well except they invoke
The friendly assistance of one of the Nine.
This liquor surpasses the streams of Parnassus
That nectar, Ambrosia, on which Gods regale
Experience will show it, naught makes a good poet
Like quantum sufficients of Nottingham Ale.

[jdparadise]

While I like the definition that "theme is what the story is About", I've been lately thinking about theme and its applicability and usages. Here's my current line of thinking:

1. I'm leery of using single-word or single-concept themes ("Love") because I find it hard to focus around them as a writer. I prefer to work with specific statements ("How we love is what defines us as people.") that certain characters and/or situations in a work can illuminate. For my own work, I'm trying not to include value judgments in my themes ("People who can't love wholeheartedly can't come to a good end."), although a given character may illustrate a position that could end up with a value-judgment type ending.

2. Characters can be established to explore various aspects of the theme, but once they are created in that light, probably shouldn't be handled as theme-puppets. Instead, I think what's going to work well for me is letting them play as they've been constructed to play; their genesis will make their actions do the work for me.

Frex, if I take the above theme as a story basis, I might have one character who can only feel any kind of love for those she has power over, and make him friends with another character who has no use for people who aren't at least his intellectual and social equal. Maybe a third character who loves indiscriminately, and a fourth who has found no love of any sort since his parents abandoned him, and invests all his energy in pets and drugs. I shouldn't need to manipulate anyone here; their origins will probably be enough to create tension that'll move the characters through whatever story they're installed in.

A practitioner of this method, if I'm interpreting the end product correctly, is Joss Whedon, with Buffy, Angel, and Firefly/Serenity. Take the (fantastically layered and nuanced) movie Serenity: River and the Reavers are flip sides of what happens when you muck with humanity.

It's still a thought-process in progress, but that's where I am so far...

Oh, and there's a neat book out there that your library or local college library might have - called something like "The Dictionary of Theme and Motif". It's a $350 book, so I'm not going to go rush out to buy it, but what I've been able to scrounge online from it definitely looks interesting.

HTH!

-j

[James D. Macdonald]

Theme is something that will grow naturally out of your storytelling. I wouldn't attempt to impose it from the beginning. Later, when revising, discovering the theme can help you sharpen the story, help guide you in making choices in what to keep and what to cut, help you discover what new scenes must be added, how characters will react.

Sitting down and saying "I'm going to write a story about Love!" gets you not an inch closer to telling that story. Having re-read your story and saying "Y'know, this story is about Love" will help you decide if that scene in the Shamrock Pub really belongs.

[SeanDSchaffer]

This is some interesting conversation where Theme is concerned. I used to try to define my theme before I wrote the book, when I was much younger. I found that keeping to the pre-designed theme was easier said than done. I'm glad I quit doing that.

[bsolah]

King says some stuff about theme in On Writing, and indeed he does suggest working in the theme after the first draft, because some of the strongest themes can come through unconciously. That's the way I think it will be with my novel, Hadeon, but some shorts that I'm writing have a predefined theme in mind, but it's central to the story and obvious from the start, that you can't dodge it and decide to wait until you've finished the first draft.

[gp101]

I write with the theme in mind. Actually, I outline with it in mind. I come up with the premise, the characters, and decide what theme I want to support or prove (one that makes sense with the plot and genre I've chosen). Though the major plot points occur specifically as a result from the actions taken by characters leading up to that point, I still make those major points, and most major decisions by the main charcaters, support the theme. Doing this in the outline kind of frees me from having to think about it during the writing. It kind of just happens after that. During re-writes I'll check to see where I can reinforce theme, and where I was too heavy-handed with it.

Works for me.

[jules]

I like to keep theme in mind during the initial plotting phase. It helps me to decide what sources of conflict to include, and concentrate on what I hope will be a strong, self-consistent core of story. I'm also fond of themes that are longer than just a few words. The book I'm currently planning, for example, has a theme of "People who you think you can trust sometimes turn out to be untrustworthy; people who you really can trust can be found in the most surprising situations". It'll be the first in a series, all of which will have different themes, but each of which will revolve around trust in some way, so you can I suppose say that "trust" is the theme of the series.

But once I know who my characters are and what their situation is, I let go of the theme. It's distracting to keep refering back to it while writing. It works better if I let it affect my choice of characters instead.

[HConn]

Once I understand the theme, I understand the cast of supporting characters.

[LeeFlower]

I feel like if the theme develops organically out of my story instead of informing it, the work is far less likely to turn into didactic grandstanding. It's doubly important for me as a YA writer to make sure I write a story and not a 'message,' because my target audience can smell preaching ten miles off.

Maybe that's just me though. If you're writing with a theme in mind, how do you keep it from getting too heavy-handed?

[gp101]

I feel like if the theme develops organically out of my story instead of informing it, the work is far less likely to turn into didactic grandstanding.

If you have your characters sound out the theme, then yeah, it could turn into a type of Aesop's Fables. Demonstrate it subtletly however, and you're less likely to run into that problem.



Maybe that's just me though. If you're writing with a theme in mind, how do you keep it from getting too heavy-handed?

Theme doesn't have to be a universally held edict, like "honesty is the best policy" or "crime doesn't pay". If you do think of theme strictly in that way, then it can very easily sound preachy. But even if you go with those two samples, the old addage "show, don't tell" plays a key role in getting across theme without it becoming too glaring.

I'm not saying I have a complete grasp of it, but what little I know helps my writing.

[Ken Schneider]

If you have an interest in reading a, (in my opinion), superbly crafted opening chapter from one of our own AW pals, soon to be printed by Kensington/Zebra, check it out below. Click her website. This is one I've got to have, and will order.

http://www.jackiekessler.com/books/hellsbelles.html

HELL'S BELLES by Jackie Kessler
Kensington/Zebra Books (January 2007)

THE ROAD TO HELL by Jackie Kessler
Kensington/Zebra Books (January 2008)

Come, let me lure you to my website (http://www.jackiekessler.com/)...

[James D. Macdonald]

We got the cover flat for Mist and Snow (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060819197/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/). Full text (including sales information for bookstores and sales reps) is here: http://webnews.sff.net/read?cmd=read&group=sff.people.doyle-macdonald&artnum=20938

[HConn]

If you're writing with a theme in mind, how do you keep it from getting too heavy-handed?

By not pounding heavily on the theme.

[lovetowrite]

I've just discovered this thread and I'm thrilled. So much yet to read, but already I've picked up some valuable tips and info. Thanks, JM.

[James D. Macdonald]

Welcome, lovetowrite, and thank you.

[moth]

Should one mention theme when querying agents? I've finished a YA novel ms and am toiling away on the query letter :tongue . I keep bouncing back and forth over whether I should say the theme in the letter, and if so, where in the letter.

Forgive me if this was ever covered upthread...I haven't read the whole thing. :)

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm not convinced that theme needs to be mentioned at all in a query letter.

What does need to be mentioned: word count and genre. Any special qualifications you have for writing this book. Previous publications and awards (limit yourself to the three most recent/most prestigious).

If they ask for a synopsis, follow their guidelines on that. Brief is good.

[moth]

Thanks Uncle Jim! :D

[Allynegirl]

Assignment Twenty-One
Write and submit a short story to an open anthology.


Well, I wrote my short story - Fantasy genre.

In the second draft, I deleted all unnecessary -ly words, adverbs and adjectives; rewrote sentences with "had," "has," and the like; removed more than 1500 excess words that were repetitive, info-dump or the story didn't need it.

I had people (husband and co-worker) read it. They liked it. I submitted the first section to SYW. It got torn apart (*facepalm*). Time to re-write it, which we all know means a totally different short story. I understand the meaning of this better now.

With the suggestions and critiques I received, a major overhaul of the main character is necessary. My light, airy, clueless ("juvenile") heroine will become darker, grounded and less gullible.

Plus, I will be changing the 1st person narrative to 3rd person.

And before I forget - SHOW, DON'T TELL!!!! (Oops - don't use all caps and exclamation marks.) ;)

I will revisit Assignment 21 again.

[James D. Macdonald]

Once again, a plug for Uncle Jim on the Radio.

Here's the information: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=693081&postcount=3863

Short version: http://www.am990.com at noon Central time, tomorrow the 6th of August.

I particularly invite any of our friends who are, or are contemplating being, published by PublishAmerica to tune in.

[Cassiopeia]

I just wanted to say thank you so very much for your generosity in sharing what you know on this forum. I am new to the forum and working my way through this thread. The information is amazing! I have been sharing it with my 15 year old son who is working on his first Fantasy novel. Both he and his older brother have read your books the Circle of Magic series when they were younger and complained when there were no more to read.

Once again, thank you.

~Casi~

[James D. Macdonald]

On the air in fifteen minutes.

[Liam Jackson]

G'afternoon Jim. I had a heck of a time hearing the broadcast. Streaming interruptions made listening painful. I'm looking forward to the iPod version or online replay. I seem to have less trouble when listening to Ed's pre-recorded shows. Any idea when he'll will have them posted?

[James D. Macdonald]

No idea, Liam. I'll be sure to let everyone know.

[James D. Macdonald]

Uh-oh! Looks like I ticked off some scam agent or vanity publisher!

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=0812517067&itm=1

Jim, A reviewer, August 2, 2006, *

[Liam Jackson]

Uh-oh! Looks like I ticked off some scam agent or vanity publisher!

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=0812517067&itm=1

Jim, A reviewer, August 2, 2006, *

Ticked off a scammer or VP? You? Surely not! ;)

"Jim the Reviewer" needs a good dose of laxative. He'll get over his angst, By Honor Betray'd will continue to sell, and all will be right with the world.

[Cassiopeia]

I missed your broadcast...is that the only time they will air it or will it be repeated?

[allion]

I just wanted to say that I fixed the beginning of one of my books. I always disliked the opening for various reasons. Things weren't moving along, and with the MC waking up as the start, it was deadly dull. In my head, I had the following words from Uncle Jim (tried to find the original post, but to no avail):

So, where does your story begin?

One way to find your beginning is this: first, write your book. Now go through it to find its start.

Here's how to recognize the start: it's the point where you can no longer summarize everything that went before in a single sentence.


I finally found my start this weekend. There is movement, and things happen, and I am happy with it.

Onward, and thank you, Uncle Jim.

Karen

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's the original post: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82322&postcount=35

I'm happy that you're finding it useful.

[Bufty]

I hate to admit it - and if and when I do twig it I'm probably going to kick myself - but I've seen the below-quoted phrase used many times and can't get a real grasp of it.

Is it on the assumption that the 'everything that went before' is routine and mundane? Is the summary sentence likely to read something like - Bob spent a boring week doing what he did every day, until Saturday afternoon when.... ? Then the story really starts on that Saturday afternoon.

Don't tell me I've worked it out at last? Kick, kick! If so, I'm tempted to delete this post, but on the other hand I can't be the only one not to have cottoned on.:Shrug:

ETA And to make matters worse, he posts the reference right above me!




Here's how to recognize the start: it's the point where you can no longer summarize everything that went before in a single sentence.

[Nangleator]

And don't think of those first, deleted chapters as wasted work. They are the backstory that you have to keep in mind, whether any of it is ever mentioned again or not. It's also good practice.

Uncle Jim, you mentioned that your outline for a novel runs to about 2/3 the length of the finished work. That bowled me over until you started to describe how you wrote them: Conversations between characters about the plot, conversations between characters and author about themselves and the plot, rude comments from the reader, etc.

I realized you decided on a very smart technique. You write a deliberately bad first draft, with no subtlety or obfuscation of plot, knowing it all has to change and be filled out later, anyway. (Which probably makes the first draft go very quickly; there's little pressure to make anything beautiful.) Was this impression correct?

I haven't had the opportunity of using this technique yet, as I've been concentrating on short stories lately. But I'll try it. I will!

[jayxwolf]

I think the outline plan sound about like something a friend and I are doing with a first draft-- we take turns writing sections of the same story, and while we have a definite idea of where the story has to go in order to resolve, we're slowly fleshing in parts of the plot for each other, and we will probably end up with about the same ratio-- 2/3rds of the net length we are aiming for, and then the edit should lead us to a point where we start adding detail and taking out the superfluous material.

(I should probably add that it's not a project on a deadline, mostly something we've been kicking around for a few months and might eventually seek publication for, but not pressuring at this time. Not a pro and have no intentions of it.)

~j

[James D. Macdonald]

Deliberately bad? Perhaps. They're outlines, for heaven's sake: not a novel, the blueprint for one. They're where I find out if a particular plot arc is going anywhere, or if a character works. And where else could I write the scene where Harry Houdini escapes from a milk can full of maple syrup? It was fun to write, even if it never appeared anywhere. "Fun" is a big part of the experience for me.

(Our short story, "Nobody Has To Know," incidentally, is an unedited chunk of one of my outlines. My coauthor took it, added linebreaks, and submitted it. It was published in Vampires (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060502223/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/), Jane Yolen, ed.)

Ken: what went before might have been fascinating in its own right, but It Isn't Part Of This Story. The Mystery of the Flying Express was worth a novel of its own, but it isn't part of The Clue of the Broken Blade, and is disposed of in a single sentence in the latter work.

BTW, for everyone: Leigh Grossman (author, editor, packager) is writing a series of posts elsewhere on the web on How Publishing Works. The latest episode is on Agents, and it's here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/8/7/122232/1998

(Leigh has the good sense to quote me several places in his series.)

[SeanDSchaffer]

Here's the original post: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82322&postcount=35

I'm happy that you're finding it useful.


So a book should start where the backstory ends? Makes sense, I suppose. But what if the backstory takes up about a third of the novel?

Rhetorical question.

I guess my work is going to require a LOT more work than what it has received so far. Even though this is a hard realization for me, I am glad you've helped me to make it. Now I can make my work into something worth reading.

[James D. Macdonald]

If the backstory takes up a third of the novel -- it isn't backstory.

[SeanDSchaffer]

If the backstory takes up a third of the novel -- it isn't backstory.


Forgive me for sounding naive, but what do you mean by that? Is it part of the novel, or is it possibly another story, or....I'm confused now.

:Shrug:

[James D. Macdonald]

Is it part of the novel, or is it possibly another story....

Yes.

[Allynegirl]

Yes. :ROFL:

I need some help - PLEASE! I have been told that I tell too much and need to change it to showing. I am very confused about the difference.

As an example:

Midday, it must be – her stomach told her so. At a clearing, she unloaded her supplies, ate and rested.

Is that telling or showing?

[Nangleator]

At a clearing, she unloaded her supplies, ate and rested.
That's telling, and we're grateful for it. Not everything should be shown. Just don't be that brief when it matters.

[Allynegirl]

I thought that was telling ... how about this example:

He exaggerated a yawn and felt, more than saw, her rush him again.

[smiley10000]

Hello Uncle Jim!

I am working on reading through the whole long thread... I am up to Februrary of this year... I may eventually catch up.

I wanted to thank you for this amazing thread. It's very helpful in keeping me on track and my goals in sight.

I thought you and your readers might find this site (http://www.writingfix.com/) interesting. It's along the lines of the Evil Plot Generator but is more mainstream. I just stumbled across it today and wanted to share.

I will return with questions when I'm all caught up (don't want to add more redundancy than necessary)
:Hail:10000

[James D. Macdonald]

I'll be Away from the computer for a week or so.

Keep writing!

[Ken Schneider]

I'll be Away from the computer for a week or so.

Keep writing!


There goes our crutch.

[Allynegirl]

Uncle Jim, wait ... come back ... I need youuuuuuuu! :cry: :e2drown:

[SeanDSchaffer]

Yes.


How did I know you were going to give me an answer like that?

Still, it is very informative; I believe I have some thinking to do.


I look forward to seeing you back at the forums later on, Uncle Jim. Have a good week.

[janetbellinger]

I would take out the "felt rather than saw" and say something like this:

He forced out a yawn, feigning indifference but could not anticipate her rush into him, which knocked him to the ground. His teeth clanked together as he hit the asphault.

I thought that was telling ... how about this example:

He exaggerated a yawn and felt, more than saw, her rush him again.

[Cassiopeia]

I would take out the "felt rather than saw" and say something like this:

He forced out a yawn, feigning indifference but could not anticipate her rush into him, which knocked him to the ground. His teeth clanked together as he hit the asphault.Actually, I thought the original words were just fine. I think your suggestion is too wordy.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Can I say you're both wrong (retterson said, laughing out loud instead of only in my head!)?

....Snipped for Length....

Dare I add that this is my humble understanding of English grammar?

(Caveat -- please forgive me if someone else already weighed in on this one -- I'm working my way through the thread.)


First, retterson, welcome to the Water Cooler. I hope you enjoy the site.

Second, I think what Uncle Jim is trying to point out, is that writing is not an exact science. You can write 'wrong' and still be correct, because what matters is not so much your grammatical skill as your writer's ear (I believe that's what he calls it). In other words, if you write something in the correct manner, but it still sounds wrong to you when you read it, then it's wrong, no matter how much correctness there is to your writing.

Many writers I know -- myself included -- gained our knowledge of English Grammar through Grammar School, in the first few grade levels. But writing good novels is not something that you can just follow a formula to. It requires that you have a good ear for what sounds right, not just for what is grammatically correct.

This is not to say that learning grammar is a bad thing, or that it is unnecessary; what it is to say is that learning grammar is only part of the equation. If you know the rules well, then you can gain a better understanding, through that knowledge, of what works for you, and what does not.

A good way of thinking about this might be to compare painting a house with painting a picture. In painting a house there is a science that has to be followed, a rule of where exactly a particular color goes, etc. OTOH, painting a picture, though it does require a good knowledge of the handling of paints, does not have the rigidity where the rules are concerned. This is because you are painting your own creation onto the canvas.

What I'm trying to say is, because writing a novel is bringing your thoughts onto paper, the rules, though they ought never to be completely discarded, are not as necessary to the quality of the work as they would be if you were writing, say, a textbook.


Again, retterson, it's good to meet you, and I hope you enjoy the forums. I hope you have a good weekend.

[Cassiopeia]

The imagery I derive from the simple sentence, "He exaggerated a yawn and felt, more than saw, her rush him again." is of a man pretending to be asleep but then purposely exaggerating a yawn to get her attention and then felt her rushing at him again. As in she pounces the minute he lets her know he is awake.

[Cassiopeia]

I imagined a man feigning boredom and a wife coming at him with frying pan.
<grin>UH OH... :D Prior experience?

[Ken Schneider]

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=111

Here is the link to grammar for grasshoppers. A better place, I believe, for grammar topics.

JMHO.

[retterson]

Ken,

Thank you for the helpful link. I'll be sure to check it out.

Yet, I think that banishing a discussion on grammar is rather like saying that the discussion of engines is not welcomed on this car site because it is really just about paint jobs and dealerships.

Besides, Uncle Jim started that one!

[Bufty]

Retterson,

If you take time to work through this thread - I see you're up to post 200 out of some 5447 - you'll see what KS means. It's not a question of banishment - it's a question of trying to maintain a degree of focus in the Thread. Grammar for Grasshoppers concentrates on grammar issues even though they do crop up here from time to time.

[retterson]

I was up to 200 when I posted that post.... but time advances and so does my scroll bar..... but it's hard because the thread's.... eh, well, it's really unfocussed.

"And," rett asked with mild, but with truly well-intentioned and good-natured, amusement, "how's that whole focus thing going, anyway?"

lol!! (Please, please, laugh with me here, Bufty) :)

Heck, it's like trying to keep a bunch of ADHD-afflicted cats in a lidless box. MEOW!

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

To expand on what Bufty said: Since AbsoluteWrite is so chockfull of such a vast catalog of writing fora with topics on every possible esoteric aspect of writing you can think of...

an individual thread can afford to be very granular in its focus.

That said, it's great to see you here! (You should add a post to the "AWers going to VP!" thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34367), just to bump it!)

[Allynegirl]

Thank you all for addressing my "show-don't tell" issue. It is a bit more clear now.

Retterson has the right of the meaning behind the sentence - good job!

Here is a larger excerpt with changes I made.

Karen did not disappoint him. The dirk was pulled from the belt and, with an awkward thrust, she lunged at him. He sidestepped her approach and tripped her with his staff. She ended up flat on her face.

“Is that the best you can do?”

Her green eyes flashed in anger and she pushed her curly brown hair out of her face. She got back up and circled him. “Send me back – now.”

He exaggerated a deliberate yawn. Infuriated, she rushed him again. Aaron disarmed her and planted the bottom of his staff just under her sternum. She lay in the grass, curled in a fetal position, sucking air and trying not to puke. At last, she raised herself back to her feet.

“I would suggest that, with your ineptitude at combat, you use your weapon as a last resort.”

:)

[LloydBrown]

::raising hand::

I have a couple of minor issues with this. I haven't been reading along, by the way--I just clicked "new posts".

The dirk was pulled from the belt

Way too passive for a combat sequence. You know how to improve that.



I don't see how Aaron disarmed her and planted the bottom of his staff just under her sternum. leads to She lay in the grass, curled in a fetal position,

If there's a step in there, like "knocked her to the ground again", I recommend that you mention it.

[Sesselja]

My next suggestion is also going to be work: Take your favorite novel.

Now, retype the first chapter. Do this with your writer's eye, not your reader's eye. Think about the lengths of the sentences, the lengths of the paragraphs, the sounds of the words. Think about the order of the scenes. Notice the dialog. How are the dialog tags rendered? Where is the point of view?


Yes, I know this is several years old, but as a newbie to the forum, I'm working my way through the undiluted Uncle Jim thread, and yesterday I came across this advice.

So I picked up one of my favourite books, The Secret History by Donna Tartt, and started typing the prologue. Then I decided it would be better to do this with a Norwegian book (as I my ficition write in Norwegian), so I picked Flommen by Jonny Hallberg. Then something dawned on me: they were both written from first person POV. Coincident, I wondered, and walked over to my bookshelf and had a look at some other of my favourite books: Money by Martin Amis, I Capture the Castle by Dodier Smith, The Wind-up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami, The Shadow of the Wind by Carlos Ruiz Zafón, The Secret Life of Bees by Sue Monk Kidd. All are written in the first person POV (or at least the first chapters are).

Now, I don't know what to do with this information, if it will have any influence on how I write or just how I pick books to read, but had I not followed uncle Jim's advice, I would never have known this at all. For that alone: Thanks! :)

[klostes]

Just wanted to pop in here and say "Hi!" and do a bit of fangirl squeeing. This past winter, on the advice of Sherwood Smith, I picked up your "By Honor Betray'd" and the next two books in the series from the library. My 13 year old, a reluctant reader with some serious vision issues, saw the books and asked if he could read them, too. OF course! It was the first time he'd been interested in anything beyond Edward EAger and Garth Nix, and the first time he'd really applied himself to reading a "full-length adult" novel. He devoured the entire series and then branched out into new authors. Last week he asked me to get him your series again from the library, and he's on his second read through. Your series is what really hooked him into reading for fun, and I'm very, very grateful for that!

I enjoyed the books very much myself, but as a mom, my true joy was my son telling me, "Mom, I'm reading. Can't the dishes wait?" Yeah, they can. This time. :)

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

'Course I can't speak for Uncle Jim hisself, but my guess is... As this particular thread has been going on for so very long, it's probably not going to change its modus operandi at this late date.

HOWEVER! there's a thread in this forum called "Uncle Jim Undiluted" which I think does exactly what you're looking for--pulls all of JDM's posts out for quick perusal without all the surrounding chatter.

Here it is! (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7987)

Between that and the Index to the Writing with Uncle Jim Thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8754), a newcomer has lots of options for catching up (and an old-timer has lots of options for reference).

If you like 'em, give the compilers/indexers a rep point. They put in a lot of work on those threads out of the goodness of their hearts (or the Type-A-ness of their personalities, which I can totally understand).

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

ACK! I just found JDM's undiluted thread!Oh, that's right, just edit your post to extinction so that mine makes absolutely no sense anymore. I see how it is!

;-)

Sounds like you're happy with what you found, then?

[janetbellinger]

[quote=retterson]Let me preface my long post here with: I'm not a arbiter or style maven; I just find that when people tell me how they read a thing (or the many different ways they could have read it), it helps joggle my mind and focus my writing. Hope the following helps.

Here's what I think is problematic about your above quote.

I don't understand what you mean by exaggerating a yawn. Did he feign a yawn (as in to indicate boredom) or was his yawn to cover up something? Or, as Casi mentioned below, because he wants to signal that he's awake? Do you need to explain (i.e., show) to us what it going on that would cause his yawn to be exaggerated? (I can't tell because I don't know what comes before or after this.)

In my very humble and admittedly inexperienced opinion, I think this is one instance when an adverb is in order, in other words instead of exaggerating a yawn, he could yawn hugely or widely or something.

[Cassiopeia]

The thing is here, without putting that one descriptive sentence into the context of the story there is no way to critique it successfully.

[janetbellinger]

I am sorry. I am tired from running in the rain so please forgive me but "the dirk was pulled from the belt," sounds too much to me like a similar word for dirk and it kind of makes me smile, likewise other readers would too.

[Cassiopeia]

I am not sure what kind of novel this is, my first guess would be swash-buckler romance novel and unfortunately back in the day, I read one too many JoAnna Lindsey books not to catch the same impression as you janet. http://forums.casiopeia.org/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Allynegirl]

Thank y'all kindly for your suggestions and comments. It has been most helpful. If you are interested, head over to SYW. I have posted several sections of my short story WIP.

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi, all.

Not really back yet; a million things to do.

Q: So tell me, Uncle Jim, what's a six-day hike on the Appalachian Trail in the White Mountains like?

A: Imagine six days on a Stairmaster...with rain.

[Allynegirl]

Hi, all.

Not really back yet; a million things to do.

Q: So tell me, Uncle Jim, what's a six-day hike on the Appalachian Trail in the White Mountains like?

A: Imagine six days on a Stairmaster...with rain.

Poor Uncle Jim! But I just gotta :ROFL:

[Bufty]

Think of all that research material gathered for the next novel.

[Avalon]

You did six days on the Appalachian Trail?

I'm incredibly jealous! Bet it was terrific. :)

[Nangleator]

Hard to break your ankle on a stairmaster. Much less hard on a trail.

I've done Katahdin a few times.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm incredibly jealous! Bet it was terrific.

"When you lie back and close your eyes you sometimes see 'floaties,' right?"

"Yeah."

"They aren't supposed to look like mosquito wrigglers, are they?"

"Don't think so."

"Probably shouldn't look like paramecium reproducing by binary fission, either, then."

[Nangleator]

Oh, my.

Are you suggesting not drinking the water in the Appalachians?

[James D. Macdonald]

Actually, I got to like the taste of iodine....

[SeanDSchaffer]

Actually, I got to like the taste of iodine....



Ugh! That sounds....fun.

:e2thud:



ETA:

Uncle Jim, I hope you'll forgive me for this, but I've not been BIC'ing the way you've prescribed. My reason is that I find my work suffers when I push myself too hard. I've been writing whenever the inspiration hits, but I've not been getting the specific time in that I was for awhile.

One plus to this situation, however, is that my writing has improved since I've done this. It does not seem so stilted as it did before; it flows much better and is easier for me to read.

This is not to impune anything you've already pointed out; it's only to say that apparently the same method does not work for every writer. In a way, it bothers me that this method works better for me than the method prescribed by a professional, but I can't get past the fact that my writing has tremendously improved.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Welcome back, Uncle Jim.

[James D. Macdonald]

In a way, it bothers me that this method works better for me than the method prescribed by a professional, but I can't get past the fact that my writing has tremendously improved.

Ah, Sean. Do not forget the master rule: What works for you is right.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Ah, Sean. Do not forget the master rule: What works for you is right.


Thanks, Uncle Jim.

[MidnightMuse]

Any hike through the woods that doesn't involve a scene from Deliverance can't be all that bad.

Welcome back, Uncle Jim :)

[alanna]

:e2woo: You're back you're back! :Hail:

[MacAllister]

Q: So tell me, Uncle Jim, what's a six-day hike on the Appalachian Trail in the White Mountains like?

A: Imagine six days on a Stairmaster...with rain.
Wow...that's exactly what the Pacific Crest Trail is like, too. Who'da thunk it?!

[James D. Macdonald]

I've added a new chapter to the Mist and Snow excerpt available on-line.

http://mist-and-snow.livejournal.com/

[Ken Schneider]

Hi, all.

Not really back yet; a million things to do.

Q: So tell me, Uncle Jim, what's a six-day hike on the Appalachian Trail in the White Mountains like?

A: Imagine six days on a Stairmaster...with rain.

I was on the trail just a few weeks ago in The Smoky Mountain national park, Tennessee. but only for a day hike. Eight miles up to Clingman's dome, and back.

If my research on the trail serves me right, up on the white mountians they say it can snow in a any month of the year? Rocky climbing, too.

Good place to quiet the mind.

[James D. Macdonald]

Plot Bunnies (http://www.lazette.net/Vision/Issue34/plotbunny.htm)

[Nangleator]

Who is the seller? My muse?

Plot bunnies do a terrible job on my character carrots.

[Ken Schneider]

I've added a new chapter to the Mist and Snow excerpt available on-line.

http://mist-and-snow.livejournal.com/


Already pre-ordered mine; not goin to read any more 'til I get it.

On another note related up-stream.

Jim, ever consider a walk-through of the App trail? I know you're close to the northern starting point of the trail.

I don't suppose you'd have the time, but, paper and pencil will fit in the pack.

I know one better be in tip-top shape for the attempt.

During my day march the surroundings helped me form many story ideas and plots for an adventure packed book of any genre.

I guess it would be a lesson for any writer to get out and walk whether it be in the city or country with an eye for that next wip.

[James D. Macdonald]

My companion on this trip was another writer who managed to write 24 pages (longhand) during the course of it. We blocked out a climatic sword-fight scene at the Carter Notch Hut, to the vast amusement of all.

[stevejohnson]

Quote
I'm sorry, this isn't about POV or plot, but there's a bit in that Mary Higgins Clark scene that drives me straight up the wall:

"Your mother's always been a pretty woman, and all the tender loving care she's received from me over the last forty-three years has only enhanced her beauty," his father said. He paused. "What are you two smiling at?"

"You know full well I've also waited on you hand and foot, dear," Dolores Stephens replied.

Does anyone in the world talk like that?
Endquote

Actually, my wife and I spar like this all the time.

[HConn]

My companion on this trip was another writer who managed to write 24 pages (longhand) during the course of it. We blocked out a climatic sword-fight scene at the Carter Notch Hut, to the vast amusement of all.

For the last few months, my only "writing" time has come during the down time at my temp job. It's less than ideal, but there doesn't seem to be much I can do about it right now.

Maybe I should switch to longhand.

[Diane]

Maybe I should switch to longhand.

I did this recently and found times to write that I would never have thought I could write during. My hand hurt during the first week or so. Writing in a notebook is definitely worth the effort.

[LeeFlower]

I was writing a lot at my temp job this summer too (I told my boss point-blank I was doing it... she thought it was cool. Ah, the joys of reception). I've come to the conclusion that a $30 thumb-drive is an extremely worthwhile investment. I keep my WIP on one, and I never have to worry about not having it with me to work on. Home, work, (class), library... anywhere I've got access to a computer, internet-enabled or no. Very useful.

[Nangleator]

...a $30 thumb-drive is an extremely worthwhile investment....
Agreed. I have one on my keychain. But bear in mind, they are not 100% safe. Very safe, yes, but not completely safe.

[Nexusman]

Even with a good backup, human fallacy can always be an issue—I lost a chapter one time when I ran my backup macro and accidentally copied an old version from my hard drive to the new version I had edited on the thumb-drive. Make sure you know what you're copying to.

-Nick

[gp101]

Just bumping this thread back up for easy reference. Can't believe it dropped down to page 4 of the archives. It needs to be on top.

[James D. Macdonald]

We need something meatier than that. When we bump threads, we need to say something.

--------------------

Master: Writing is like a turtle crawling in the sand.

Student: Master, how is writing like a turtle crawling in the sand?

Master: You are correct. Writing is not like a turtle crawling in the sand.


===============

Y'know how people always tell you to "write what you know"? Well, how do you know what you know? How do you know what you don't know?

I have some thoughts on that (and not merely because I'm a know-it-all). What folks are really trying to say with that is:

All stories are about people. You are a person; know yourself. Write about people, do it in a way that explains personhood with insight, wit, and psychological truth, and it doesn't matter what else you do or don't do.

This is hard. Perfect self-knowledge is difficult. Perfect knowledge of strangers is harder still. Communicating that perfect knowledge is hardest of all. That's why we have to bolster our creations with research into the real world (if that's where our story is set).

Do you know why Swift's book is still in print even though there aren't any tiny little people, or giants, or talking horses, or flying cities? That's because he had near-perfect self-knowledge and was able to transmit it. (And gave us Lilliputian, Brobdingnagian, and yahoos at the same time.)

[James D. Macdonald]

Is it time to play another game? Yes!

Okay, here's what we're going to do. As we all know, Plan Nine From Outer Space was to create an army of zombies to take over the earth.

Today's challenge is to come up with Plans One Through Eight.

I'll go first:

Plan One From Outer Space
Space aliens, determined to take over the earth, disguise themselves as charcoal briquettes and hide themselves in suburban basements and garages all over America. The day is set: They plan to strike on September 2nd!

Who's up for Plan Two?

[Nexusman]

Ah, yes, my schemes of world domination are finally coming to pass.

Plan Two From Outer Space
Space aliens, determined to on global domination, run multiple successful simulations based on Risk. However, their plans are currently in haitus as they try to figure out how sets of loaded dice can be used against atomic weapons.

-Nick

[Liam Jackson]

Plan three-
Using telepathic communications, aliens establish contact with all species of earth rodents, including mice, rats, squrriels, the IRS, etc... The rodents, on telepathic cue, infiltrate sensitive areas within major metro police and fire departments, NASA, military and intelligence installations, medical facilities and major communications networks. Once in place, the rodents gnaw through all console wiring including fiber optics and modem drivers for satellites systems, rendering both hard and soft communications systems useless.

Then, with the world's largest cities reduced to isolated islands of confused humanity, the invasion begins with a point by point systematic takeover of the entire planet.

Heaven help us!

[Theo Neel]

Ah, yes, my schemes of world domination are finally coming to pass.

Plan Two From Outer Space
Space aliens, determined to on global domination, run multiple successful simulations based on Risk. However, their plans are currently in haitus as they try to figure out how sets of loaded dice can be used against atomic weapons.

-Nick

Or, having determined that they stand a 95% probability of successful domination provided they first take over Australia and expand forward from there, they realize the futility of said plan once they ascertain that there is really no land bridge from Australia.

[Theo Neel]

The aliens genetically reengineer the world's cotton crops, introducing nano-somethings into the fibers. Within a few years, all underwear, and a considerable amount of outerwear, is made of Franken-cotton.

The aliens have only to press a button, and all of humanity -- at least those who are wearing cotton underwear -- become their willing slaves.

[When you have them by the %@!!s, their hearts and minds will follow.]

Flaw in scheme -- most female underwear is not cotton-based; the females of Planet Earth usurp the alien's controls and women's plan for Intergalactic Domination (and the Timely Removal of Refuse from the Kitchen Coupled with the Un-nagged Descent of Toilet Seats) is finally realized.

[Nangleator]

Plan Five from Outer Space

Aliens decide that the real seat of power on Earth is with housewives. Their plan is to capture human women and replace them with wooden-acting fem-zombies that somehow disintegrate in a horrible fashion when they are killed. Despite the horrible, horrible dialog, the menfolk don't catch on, except for Duke Manmuscle, who single-handedly saves the Earth.

[ChunkyC]

Plan Six from Outer Space:

Disguised as Television Executives, aliens intent on taking over the Earth start something called "Reality TV."

[Nangleator]

...Duke Manmuscle...
Oh, yeah... This teenager is played by a 46-year-old Doug McClure.

[ProsperitySue]

Plan Seven from Outer Space:

Aliens infiltrate America's Homeland Security and create color-coded alerts to cause confusion. Plan fails when aliens decide to just blend in, discovering they fit in more with this agency than on home planet.

[Theo Neel]

Is it time to play another game? Yes!
[snip]
Today's challenge is to come up with Plans One Through Eight.


New here. Hello!

Are entries scored? Or is this one of those games where everyone's a winner just for playing? Are these going to be turned into writing prompts with assignments due at the end of the semester? :)

Is it protocol to provide rep points for plans we like?

[Ken Schneider]

New here. Hello!

Are entries scored?

Hello Theo.
I doubt there will be any scoring

Just play. I'm sure there will be some teaching involved.

I have an idea of where this may be heading. It is learn writing, so I'm sure there is something to be learned. I could be wrong, too.


Rather than speculate,I'll wait.

[Ken Schneider]

Plan eight- Reworked 'cause I'm dumb.

Aliens develop a tasty but deadly formula that they will skillfully market to stores on earth to poison the population.

[Bufty]

Plan Nine - Due to the failure of Plans one through Eight, decide to wrap the stupid planet up in cling film, then orbit for a month.

[James D. Macdonald]

Great job, everyone:

Now the next task. Those who are playing:

Write the first hundred words of the story of your Plan From Outer Space, and the last line of your story.

Again, I'll go first:

"Commander Carbon!"

"What is it, Russell?"

"I think he's on to us. I saw him looking at us three times today."

"It could be nothing."

Russell turned back to the viewscreen. "It could be a lot, sir. All of the forces aren't in place yet. Those that are, are under strict radio silence...."

"Which includes us. Unless he takes definite hostile action, we're going to wait until D-Day, H-Hour, M-Minute. A reckless act by you -- by us -- will destroy everything."

"Could we at least make preparations for a fast retreat?"

Commander Carbon ran his pseudopod over his eyestalks. "It's just the waiting that's getting to you, Russell. Courage. You'll see that Supreme Headquarters has devised an unbeatable plan."

-----------------

Last line:

"Hey, Fred! Them burgers done yet?"

[Theo Neel]

Wouldn't've posted if I'd known there'd be homework...

Question -- Are we writing the first hundred words of a short story or a novel?

[James D. Macdonald]

Question -- Are we writing the first hundred words of a short story or a novel?

I think that mine was a short-story length idea, but if you see a novel, go for a novel.

(And being a writer means you have homework every day for the rest of your life.)

[DamaNegra]

Y'know how people always tell you to "write what you know"? Well, how do you know what you know? How do you know what you don't know?

And this sometimes becomes into conflict with "write what you like".

What I know isn't necessarily what I write. I know a lot of how the mind works (and I'm going to study psychology so I'll know more), and I know a lot about relationships (only been through one, but have witnessed in an almost documentary level many others), so I'm most fit to write romance.

The problem is, I like to write epic fantasy. I don't really like reading romance, although my last two WIPs have been romance (comes more naturally to me so it's a better learning experience), but I'm not sure if I want to be known as a romance author.

[Theo Neel]

I think that mine was a short-story length idea, but if you see a novel, go for a novel.

(And being a writer means you have homework every day for the rest of your life.)

No worries. I write every day, for hours. Love writing. No problem with BIC here. Just prefer to waste the aging brain matter on one of my novels. But I'm almost done with the homework anyway.

[Nangleator]

That'll teach me to be silly. Now I gotta write a good opening to a joke concept? Okay.

Plan 5 from Outer Space
The glow from around the corner was occluded. A diffuse shadow wriggled within the feeble light on the desert floor, and I tucked myself against a boulder. Something was walking directly toward or away from the source of the light.

Away from it. It was a woman, and someone I should have recognized immediately. Deception was a small town, and I knew everyone in it, from their faces to their walks to even their body language. It was Marcia, Frank's wife, but only like a perfect sculpture done in flesh. It was lifeless, though in motion.

It was easy staying quiet.
#
Last line:
"That's for pretending to be my Suzie," I said, and watched the flesh curdle, her face melt, and the gun drop on the floor.