Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[maestrowork]

I hate you, jLawrence.

[Nangleator]

Every time I make up my mind on which category to send my next query to (agents or publishers,) I read that I should be sending it to the other.

What's the currently preferred slush pile for an unpublished writer? An agent's or a publisher's?

And in order to get back on subject, how normal is it to look at your own characters, scenes, plots and ideas and see disturbing connections to other works? Does everyone else look at parts of their work and say, 'Damn. That's a little like such-and-such'?

My best beta reader is familiar with the book I'm most afraid of being compared with, and she doesn't feel I'm stepping on anyone's toes. Still, it's hard not to be afraid.

[triceretops]

Jlaurenceperry--Wow, you got the jump on us! You've seen SW #III, hey good for you!

You lil' bastid.

Tri

[James D. Macdonald]

What's the currently preferred slush pile for an unpublished writer? An agent's or a publisher's?

Why not both? Three and an outline (or whatever the guidelines say) in a pubisher's heap while you're querying the devil out of agents?

And in order to get back on subject, how normal is it to look at your own characters, scenes, plots and ideas and see disturbing connections to other works? Does everyone else look at parts of their work and say, 'Damn. That's a little like such-and-such'?

It's way normal.

[jlawrenceperry]

I hate you, jLawrence.

The hate is swelling in you now....

[Roger J Carlson]

The hate is swelling in you now....What a great line! You could use it in a story about a young man with great power who is seduced by evil forces...uh nevermind.

[maestrowork]

And in order to get back on subject, how normal is it to look at your own characters, scenes, plots and ideas and see disturbing connections to other works? Does everyone else look at parts of their work and say, 'Damn. That's a little like such-and-such'?

My best beta reader is familiar with the book I'm most afraid of being compared with, and she doesn't feel I'm stepping on anyone's toes. Still, it's hard not to be afraid.

Some of my betas mentioned things like, "Hey this scene reminds me of A Midsummer Night's Dream" or "Wow, this is kind of like Driving Miss Daisy." Then I asked them, "Is that a bad or a good thing." They say, "It's not a bad or good thing. It just is. And it's a good thing, in a way, that your writing reminds us some of the good stuff we've read or seen."

I guess as long as you're not plagiarizing or going for the obvious, it's normal that your work or parts of it remind people of other works.

[Nangleator]

Why not both?

That's an answer I can sink my teeth into!

Learning how to sell a book has been getting more and more complicated the more answers I get, until I saw this.

So. Mass mailings of query letters to agents simultaneous with one-at-a-time submissions to publishers. I can dig it.

[maestrowork]

The hate is swelling in you now....

Fear turns to anger. Anger turns to hate. Hate leads me to the dark side...

I'm almost there! Bwhahahahaha.

[James D. Macdonald]

So. Mass mailings of query letters to agents simultaneous with one-at-a-time submissions to publishers. I can dig it.

Even if the agents say they accept e-mail, go hard-copy. On nice paper. Signed with ink. In a good envelope. With an SASE.

Research and follow everyone's guidelines exactly, modifying your submission or query as necessary.

Remember the two rules:


Publishers worth submitting to have books you've seen with your own eyes on the shelves of bookstores.
Useful agents have sold books you've heard of.
It's wonderful to give a new fellow a chance, but why should they get their on-the-job training with your book?

[James D. Macdonald]

Guys, go get the following things (all freeware or shareware):

AVG Antivirus (http://www.grisoft.com/)

Popfile Automatic Email Classification (http://popfile.sourceforge.net/)

ZoneAlarm Firewall (http://www.zonelabs.com/)

GRR! (Greyware Registry Rearguard) (http://www.greyware.com/software/grr/)

AdAware SE adware removal (http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/)

Spyware Blaster spyware blocker (http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/spywareblaster.html)

Spybot S&D spyware removal (http://www.safer-networking.org/en/)

Microsoft Windows Anti-Spyware (Beta) (http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/default.mspx)

Run 'em all, keep 'em updated. GRR! especially will help with viruses and trojans that haven't been around long enough to have profiles in the major anti-virus programs. It detects and prevents any unauthorized changes in your Registry files.

=============

Never, ever open or run an unexpected file attached to an email, even if it appears to come from someone you know.

[James D. Macdonald]

While we're talking Star Wars:

http://www.pvponline.com/archive.php3?archive=20050510

[Roger J Carlson]

Guys, go get the following things (all freeware or shareware):

AVG Antivirus (http://www.grisoft.com/)

Popfile Automatic Email Classification (http://popfile.sourceforge.net/)

ZoneAlarm Firewall (http://www.zonelabs.com/)

GRR! (Greyware Registry Rearguard) (http://www.greyware.com/software/grr/)

AdAware SE adware removal (http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/)

Spyware Blaster spyware blocker (http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/spywareblaster.html)

Spybot S&D spyware removal (http://www.safer-networking.org/en/)

Microsoft Windows Anti-Spyware (Beta) (http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/default.mspx)

Run 'em all, keep 'em updated. GRR! especially will help with viruses and trojans that haven't been around long enough to have profiles in the major anti-virus programs. It detects and prevents any unauthorized changes in your Registry files.

=============

Never, ever open or run an unexpected file attached to an email, even if it appears to come from someone you know.Jim,
It would be great if you could post this in the Tech Help board. There's a thread there called "Free Stuff for the Semi-Geek" where it would fit. Or just start a new thread.

Thanks

[Nangleator]

I thank you, Uncle Jim.

Here's a funny (http://sluggy.com/daily.php?date=971012) for you.

It isn't Star Wars, but Star Trek and Alien in one spoof...

[Kasey Mackenzie]

Jim, that comic's hilarious! Speaking of SW III, husband scored free tickets to a showing on Saturday so we're eagerly anticipating seeing it. Of course, it involves getting up early to drive to a mall about 45 minutes away for the 8:30 a.m. showing...but hey it's free!

[PattiTheWicked]

Speaking of fun Star Wars related thingies... http://www.storewars.org/flash/

[zizban]

Guys, go get the following things (all freeware or shareware):

AVG Antivirus (http://www.grisoft.com/)

Popfile Automatic Email Classification (http://popfile.sourceforge.net/)

ZoneAlarm Firewall (http://www.zonelabs.com/)

GRR! (Greyware Registry Rearguard) (http://www.greyware.com/software/grr/)

AdAware SE adware removal (http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/)

Spyware Blaster spyware blocker (http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/spywareblaster.html)

Spybot S&D spyware removal (http://www.safer-networking.org/en/)

Microsoft Windows Anti-Spyware (Beta) (http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/default.mspx)

Run 'em all, keep 'em updated. GRR! especially will help with viruses and trojans that haven't been around long enough to have profiles in the major anti-virus programs. It detects and prevents any unauthorized changes in your Registry files.

=============

Never, ever open or run an unexpected file attached to an email, even if it appears to come from someone you know.


I use a Mac
:banana:

[Unimportant]

Uncle Jim said: "Even if the agents say they accept e-mail, go hard-copy. On nice paper. Signed with ink. In a good envelope. With an SASE."

In my most recent round of agent queries, three of ten queried by email sent a response, and three of four queried by snailmail sent a response. I prefer email for $$ reasons (I don't live in the US, so every one page query costs me $3; a synopsis+chapter query costs ~$20, and a full-ms submission costs ~$80) but snailmail seems more likely to elicit a response, even if it's just a form rejection.

YMMV.

[reph]

Guys, go get the following things (all freeware or shareware)...
Or get a Mac. Don't worry. Be happy.

[James D. Macdonald]

I don't live in the US, so every one page query costs me $3; a synopsis+chapter query costs ~$20, and a full-ms submission costs ~$80.

Is there a publishing industry in the country where you live?

[Unimportant]

Jim: The publishing industry where I live is miniscule and very niche: most of what's published is of local interest only. Genre fiction publishing is nonexistent, AFAIK.

So I persevere, and I spend a lot of money on postage. There are worse ways to waste money!

[Roger J Carlson]

In my most recent round of agent queries, three of ten queried by email sent a response, and three of four queried by snailmail sent a response. I prefer email for $$ reasons (I don't live in the US, so every one page query costs me $3; a synopsis+chapter query costs ~$20, and a full-ms submission costs ~$80) but snailmail seems more likely to elicit a response, even if it's just a form rejection.

YMMV.This has been my experience too. Less than half of email queries even get a "not for us", whereas all most all of my snail mail queries get at least a form rejection. I'm not sure why this is. You'd think that firing off an email reply would be even easier.

Now I only send email queries when the agent/publisher submission guidelines say email is preferred.

[Roger J Carlson]

Speaking of fun Star Wars related thingies... http://www.storewars.org/flash/ This is WONDERFUL. Thanks for sharing it. I spread it around a few places myself. May the farm be with you!

[Nangleator]

One of my beta readers keeps changing my spelled-out numbers to numerals, while another doesn't.

Is there a standard? Or do I just stay consistent? Strunk and White says not to spell out dates and other serial numbers, except in quotes, but I'm not talking about serial numbers.

Ex: Midas was an under-populated city, with only seven hundred-sixty residents.

[zizban]

My aunt, the editor, says anything under 100 is spelled out, anything more, use numerals. There are stylistic reasons why that rule can be broken, much like starting sentences with 'and' and 'but'.

[Nangleator]

...anything under 100 is spelled out, anything more, use numerals...
Thank you. Looks like another trip through the manuscript for me. The search function won't be of much use. (That's only worthwhile if you can trust it will catch 100%.)

[James D. Macdonald]

As far as spelling out numbers, the rule is "be consistent."

Whoever you sell the work to will have a house style, and that's the way it'll be printed.

[reph]

One of my beta readers keeps changing my spelled-out numbers to numerals, while another doesn't....

Ex: Midas was an under-populated city, with only seven hundred-sixty residents.
For questions like that, you need to get a more comprehensive style manual than Strunk and follow it consistently. Spelling out numbers as big as 760 is unusual, except approximations like "four million." Anyway, publishers' copy editors don't expect authors to take care of all that. Making numbers conform to house style is routine in copy editing. Some publishers spell out up through 99, others only up through 10.

In the example sentence, both hyphens should be deleted:
underpopulated
seven hundred sixty (or, better, 760)

[zizban]

When I am writing ficition, I spell out all my numbers unless it's a street address or something like that.

[Diane]

Even if the agents say they accept e-mail, go hard-copy. On nice paper. Signed with ink. In a good envelope. With an SASE.


Is the SASE actually important? That is, does including one or not affect the judgement on the manuscript?

I'd rather include an SASE just for a letter reply rather than an envelope with postage to get the manuscript (or three chapters, or whatever) back.

[James D. Macdonald]

The SASE is only important if you want to hear back.

It's perfectly normal and acceptable to include a letter-sized envelope and state in the cover letter that the manuscript is disposable.

[James D. Macdonald]

If anyone has any Fantasy/Science Fiction/Horror short stories, previously published, to which you own the audio rights, here's a market:

http://escape.extraneous.org/guidelines/

[J. Y. Moore]

I write under several different names, including my own.

My question may be answered elsewhere in this thread. If so, forgive the repeat - just wanted to ask before it got lost in my head - heh! When you submit to either an agent or publisher and have written your masterpiece using a pen name, do you simply explain that you are using a pen name for this piece and sign it with your own name, or do you submit strictly under the false name? I would guess the former but am not sure.

Thanks for the instructions, Jim. Your time is appreciated!

[maestrowork]

Real name in the upper left corner (with your contact info). Your pen name in the byline:




John Doe
123 Main Street
Anytown, ST 00000


A Nice Title
by
I. P. Daly

[James D. Macdonald]

Maestro is correct. I want the checks to come with my real name on 'em.

Your name isn't secret from your agent and the editor. The name on the cover is a marketing decision.

[J. Y. Moore]

My thanks to you both!

[J. Y. Moore]

With an SASE.

I've been wondering about this as I've been writing my query letters. Since "SASE" is the acronym for "self-addressed, stamped envelope," should you use "a" or "an" with it? Although "a" would be correct if you spelled it out, it doesn't sound correct when you verbalize, "a SASE" but does with "an SASE." I'm not trying to be picky here, Jim, or to editorialize your advise, but I've written several queries in which I used this phrasing (with the "a") and wondered if I was using it correctly or not.

Thanks for your knowledgeable tutoring!!

[Roger J Carlson]

I've been wondering about this as I've been writing my query letters. Since "SASE" is the acronym for "self-addressed, stamped envelope," should you use "a" or "an" with it? Although "a" would be correct if you spelled it out, it doesn't sound correct when you verbalize, "a SASE" but does with "an SASE." I'm not trying to be picky here, Jim, or to editorialize your advise, but I've written several queries in which I used this phrasing (with the "a") and wondered if I was using it correctly or not.

Thanks for your knowledgeable tutoring!!I always go with how it sounds. Whether you read it silently or aloud, you still always "hear" the pronounciation. Since you hear it as S-A-S-E and not "say-see" (or whatever), I would use an "an".

Still, I don't suppose they would kill you and eat you for writing: "a SASE" :) .

If you wrote out "self addressed, stamped envelope", of course, you would use an "a".

[James D. Macdonald]

"An" sounds right because SASE is pronounced ess-aye-ess-ee, and "ess" begins with a vowel.

If you pronounced it "say-see" then "a" would be the indefinite article of choice.

You can do it either way, so long's you stay consistent.

[azbikergirl]

Same principle with words like 'honor' where the h, though a consonant, is silent. It's an honor and an hour, but it's a hotel or a hiccup. Goes by how we pronounce it, not by how we spell it.

[Roger J Carlson]

Same principle with words like 'honor' where the h, though a consonant, is silent. It's an honor and an hour, but it's a hotel or a hiccup. Goes by how we pronounce it, not by how we spell it.Right. But I still agonize over "historic". By the rule: "a historic occasion". But I guess I've heard "an historic occasion" so often it just sounds better.

[J. Y. Moore]

Thanks. I always think of it as being pronounced "sass" when said as a word so I suppose that is where the confusion originates. I've also noticed that some of the submission guidelines I've read seem to use the "a".

While I'm editorializing ... In my previous paragraph, I've used the "a" with the period outside the quotes. Which place does it belong? When quoting verbage, I know it belongs inside. In this context, which?

Sign me - Picky - Hah!

[James D. Macdonald]

I always put the period inside the quotes when ending a sentence.

[J. Y. Moore]

Once more - Thanks!

[James D. Macdonald]

These are all examples of things where, if you sell a story, someone at the publisher's will come by with their house stylebook and make the changes they like.

If either can be correct, choose one and stay consistent. The power of your story is what sells the work. A dull story with perfect punctuation won't sell any faster than a dull story with non-standard punctuation.

[James D. Macdonald]

Here is a quote from Michael Moschen, perhaps the best contact juggler in the world, one of the most significant jugglers of the 20th century, recipient of a MacArthur Genius Grant:

Moschen tells would-be jugglers that having too many balls in the air can be dangerous, that control is just an illusion. "Try to understand the characteristics of the objects coming at you," he says. "Create a separate flight path for each. Beware of taking the simplest forms for granted, because it's the simplest thing that will be your anchor."

There's wisdom for all of us there.

For "object" read "character" and apply this to your writing.

[brokenfingers]

Here is a quote from Michael Moschen, perhaps the best contact juggler in the world, one of the most significant jugglers of the 20th century, recipient of a MacArthur Genius Grant:


Moschen tells would-be jugglers that having too many balls in the air can be dangerous, that control is just an illusion. "Try to understand the characteristics of the objects coming at you," he says. "Create a separate flight path for each. Beware of taking the simplest forms for granted, because it's the simplest thing that will be your anchor."



There's wisdom for all of us there.


For "object" read "character" and apply this to your writing.

Brokenfingers scratches his head in wonder as he looks upon yet another pearl that Jim has pulled from seemingly nowhere and thrown down for all to share.

"How the hell does he do that? The guy really is a magician!"

[Roger J Carlson]

http://www.michaelmoschen.com/press.htmlAwe inspiring.

[James D. Macdonald]

Those of you who've seen The Labyrinth have seen Mr. Moschen's juggling. (That's him doing the crystal contact-juggling for David Bowie.)

Many years ago, Mr. Moschen self-published a book on contact-juggling. (I know about this because a friend of mine typeset it for him.) You can't find used copies -- because anyone who has one is holding onto it. I know -- I've been looking for years.

That's a perfect self-publishing project. Very specialized non-fiction for a well-defined audience.

[James D. Macdonald]

In case you don't live with a writer but want to have the experience (http://www.livejournal.com/users/scott_lynch/127371.html).

And a link (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004307.html) from the comments on that page.

[Nangleator]

Has that link been hacked, or did you just want to put a smile on my face?

[Nangleator]

By the way, Writerbo is very, very funny. And I'll need to review my own behavior from now on...

[James D. Macdonald]

Smiles are very important, but the link's been fixed. (Comes from reading/reporting my morning spam while I'm posting here.)

[Nangleator]

Your spam is much better than mine.

Boy, what ever led me to try my hand at writing? It's a horribly difficult industry to get into, it's horrible once you get into it, and it doesn't pay enough.

The only good things about it are: it seems cheap to get into, and it feels pretty good when the story is writing itself. Oh, it's also good typing practice.

Sure, some people make money at it. I think it would be smarter, though, to buy lottery tickets and say I'm a professional lottery winner.

[Roger J Carlson]

Sure, some people make money at it. I think it would be smarter, though, to buy lottery tickets and say I'm a professional lottery winner.You forgot the most important part: "I'm a professional lottery winner. I just haven't won yet."

[James D. Macdonald]

Yet another reason for keeping hard-copy backups and off-site electronic copies of your files. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/05/24/internet.ransom.ap/index.html)

[James D. Macdonald]

'Cause y'all are my friends, here's a source for special graph paper useful for drawing Celtic knotwork. (See up thread for what you can do with Celtic knotwork....)

http://www.incompetech.com/beta/plainGraphPaper/custom/celtic_blue.pdf

[Mr Underhill]

In case you don't live with a writer but want to have the experience (http://www.livejournal.com/users/scott_lynch/127371.html).I like the Writerbo's "genre and non-genre angst-generation algorithms." Those could really come in handy.

And then I was wondering about this bit:I write softcore nerdporn for elf fetishists...Say, how's that pay, anyway?

[James D. Macdonald]

Say, how's that pay, anyway?

Better than hardcore nerdporn for elf fetishists. That's a really lousy market. (Too many hatcheck girls.)

(I did, once, see a story that included the startling line, "She had not expected an elf at all, far less an abused one.")

[James D. Macdonald]

The Too Many Hatcheck Girls joke:


One night the police do a sweep in the red light district and haul in a whole bunch of young ladies. They're taken in to night court, where the judge arraigns each one in turn.

The first one stands up, gives her name and address.

"What do you do for a living?" the judge asks.

"I'm a hatcheck girl."

Second young lady, same deal: "I'm a hatcheck girl."

And so on, through a whole paddywagon's worth of young ladies. Finally, the last one approaches the bench.

"And what do you do for a living?" the judge asks.

"I'm a hooker, your honor," the woman replies.

"Really?" the judge says, perking up to finally have someone tell him the truth. "How's business?"

"Terrible," she says. "Too many hatcheck girls."

[James D. Macdonald]

The Romance Heroine Rules (http://www.sff.net/people/JenniferCrusie/romantictrivia.html#Rules)

[Nangleator]

Jim,

A long ways back you wrote about a book becoming an orphan at a publisher:
The editing it gets is more of a lick-and-a-promise than the full deal it needs and deserves.
Assuming I've done my best and placed each letter, space, period and comma where it belongs, what editing does my work need and deserve?

[willietheshakes]

Assuming I've done my best and placed each letter, space, period and comma where it belongs, what editing does my work need and deserve?

Well, I'm not Uncle Jim, but I'll give it a whirl: your book deserves what editing it needs. What you're referring to -- and this is most people's perception -- is copy-editing, a process by which the book is made correct, sound and given the house-style polish. The editorial process is quite different: it is a relationship with an editor (or two, in my case) to make the book 'better' than you might be able to on your own. This is, of course, an idealized view, but in an ideal world, editorial questions and suggestions will result in a stronger book... Then the copyeditor gets it.

[Christine N.]

What he said. It's edited for plot, meaning that they don't change your story, but may ask you to re-write ambiguous passages, or to take out extraneous ones.

You may love the three page diatribe about what happened 100 years ago to the main character's great great grandmother, something that led to the events in the book, but the readers might not care. The editor will tell you to condense it to one paragraph and lose the rest. (Caveat - unless your name is JRR Tolkein, then you can have ten pages about what happened 1000 years ago to bring us to this point in time...)

[Nangleator]

...unless your name is JRR Tolkein...
Heh. I have some doubt that LOTR would make it out of a slush pile today.

Okay, the answers were much what I expected. Thank you.

Also, I read that copy editors were being phased out as an unnecessary expense, and that spell checking was taking a small portion of that load. I assume this is spurious or incomplete, even though many errors I've read in newer books seem to corroborate this. Are the copy editors just being spread thinner and spending less time on each book?

[Avalon]

I read that copy editors were being phased out as an unnecessary expense, and that spell checking was taking a small portion of that load. I assume this is spurious or incomplete, even though many errors I've read in newer books seem to corroborate this. Are the copy editors just being spread thinner and spending less time on each book?

Speaking as a professional copyeditor (yes, it's how I pay the rent, godhelpme), I haven't noticed any discrernible movement in this direction. Last week I had to turn down three jobs. Although spellcheckers may make my job fractionally faster (if used in conjunction with about three good dictionaries), there are plenty of other things that must be done to a manuscript in addition to raw spelling -- and spellcheckers don't even catch all of the typos.

One trend I did start noticing about ten years ago, however, when I worked in book production, was the elimination of /proofreaders/. My companies started switching over to making proofreading part of the author's responsibilities, rather than paying yet another person to read the typeset text versus the manuscript. That could explain some of the errors, perhaps.

Of course, I work in a nonfiction environment. Fiction may be entirely different.

[Nangleator]

... the elimination of /proofreaders/.
Ah. It's likely that's what my source meant.

You turned down three job offers in a week? I should have gone to college.

[Christine N.]

Hey, send those jobs my way! LOL. I've done some copyediting before, just not paid for it. Well, not in money anyway.

[Avalon]

Not quite job offers. Jobs, as in books to copyedit. I'm already working on a couple, so I couldn't squeeze in any more. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

College didn't help me get into it, really. When I went to school, there wasn't a major in copyediting -- although I suppose having the English degree did help me get my first job in publishing. In the mail room. ;D

[azbikergirl]

I have a question for Uncle Jim and the rest of you who know what you're doing...

Whenever I get the idea for a story and start to write, I become stalled if I can't think of what message the story will bring. The stories I read don't always have a [discernable] message ("love conquers all," "look both ways before crossing the street," etc.) -- they're just stories. But I have this notion in my mind that if my stories don't carry some sort of message, they're not worth writing. Do all good stories have a premise (even if the reader can't tell what it is)? When I can't think of the premise for a story idea, should I wait until it comes to me before continuing with the story, or is it something I can work in later? Do other writers start with the premise and build a situation around it?
:idea:

[triceretops]

I think there's an inherent theme or message in just about every story we tell. I think that after a story is written, you can just about guess or accurately identify what the premise is. Gosh, you could say good over evil is a premise. Removing obtacles and supplanting them with stepping stones, seems to be a favorite of PA's guidelines. Is this what you are talking about? The overall message? I don't think I spend too much time wondering if my premise is down pat or obvious in the text. But I did once...

My agent told me that she would much rather I write books that contained a "save the world" premise (no kidding). Of course my book was about a lethal contest that last 48 hrs over 500 pages. All the protag wanted to do was win 1 billion dollars--so there was absolutely NO real concrete premise going on here except that the protag wanted to win the contest without killing anyone. She loved the book nevertheless. Go figure.

Tri

[AnneMarble]

Do all good stories have a premise (even if the reader can't tell what it is)?

Sometimes, they have a premise even if the writer doesn't know what it is. ;) OTOH I do know authors who go into a story with a specific theme in mind. Sometimes those stories turn out to be a huge flop. They forget the old saying -- If you want to send a message, use Western Union. That's not to say that theme isn't important. But most writers I know think of characters or plots before they think about the theme.

When I can't think of the premise for a story idea, should I wait until it comes to me before continuing with the story, or is it something I can work in later? Do other writers start with the premise and build a situation around it?
:idea:
I usually don't think of a theme when I'm writing the story. In fact, I often don't realize what it is. In a writing chat, I once asked a question about theme and admitted I didn't know if my novel had a theme. One of the chatters (who had read it) pointed out that it was about the first MC learning to accept his abilities, the second MC learning to trust the first MC, the would-be villain learning to accept that he was actually a commoner. I was amazed! I had written a story, but it was about something at the same time.
:faint:

[katee]

When I started outlining my novel, I didn't have a theme in mind, and I still didn't have one when I started writing the first draft. However, as I started writing, a - totally unexpected - theme has sprung forth. I'm going to have to make some changes in my second draft to bring the theme out fully, but all the work I did beforehand without the theme in mind is still valid.

So I'd say go right ahead with writing with or without a theme.

And honestly, if it's an interesting story and a great read, it doesn't really matter whether there's a theme or not.

[triceretops]

Katee--I agree, the theme almost always appears or comes into the script by default. Being preocupied with a relevant theme can only deter a writer and throw up another one of those pesky little blocks.

Tri

[Albedo of Zero]

the theme could be as simple as good vs evil ...or unrequited love

for the theme to be expressed there must be a premise, ie. batman vs joker in gotham city... or a city rat fends off a country cat........ pinnochio falling in love with a real girl...etc.

the plot is the width of the river, the premise is the boat and the theme is the sail

[azbikergirl]

the theme could be as simple as good vs evil ...or unrequited love

for the theme to be expressed there must be a premise, ie. batman vs joker in gotham city... or a city rat fends off a country cat........ pinnochio falling in love with a real girl...etc.

the plot is the width of the river, the premise is the boat and the theme is the sail
I must be confused. I thought theme was along the lines of batman vs joker in gotham city or a city rat fends off a country cat, and premise was the statement that the story proves: love conquers all, or dishonesty leads to poverty. ??

[James D. Macdonald]

Pointing up the theme is what you do during the second draft editing.

All of your words need to be the right words. All of your words need to advance the plot, reveal character, or support the theme. Better words do two of those things. The best words do all three.

Write your book. (Tell your story. Without story there is no book.)

Read it.

Figure out what the theme is.

While writing your second draft knowing what the theme is will help you decide on the right words. Remove or change those that do not support the theme (if they are not already revealing character or advancing plot).

[maestrowork]

The theme(s) will emerge once you've finished the story. It doesn't mean you shouldn't use one if you have a theme... it means you shouldn't worry too much.

I once wrote a short story. When I wrote it I had no idea what the "theme" was supposed to be. After a few drafts, they naturally emerged and I "tweaked" the story to strengthen them, which were "betrayal and forgiveness."

The same thing happened to my first novel. I had a very simple theme going into it, but eventually multiple themes emerged once I finished writing it.

[Liam Jackson]

Funny thing about themes. If you poll ten readers on the same novel, asking them to identify the theme, you'll likely get a half dozen different answers. Write whatever you like, anyway you choose. Consciously install themes or allow them to emerge. Doesn't matter. The readers will interpret and tell you all about your themes...whether you like it or not. :)

[azbikergirl]

Thanks, all. I feel better now. For my novel, I let the theme emerge and then changed what needed to change in order to color it in. Felt good to do it that way, but it wasn't really a conscious effort until a much later draft.

[maestrowork]

I agree with LJ though... how your readers interpret your story might surprise you. I think in general my betas all got the gist of the themes, but they all had different interpretations and understanding. It's not that they were wrong -- just that each of them took away something different from my novel. It's really quite interesting.

[Khilari]

Hi, I'm new and I probably won't post often, I'm a lurker by nature and I've already lurked long enough to read the whole thread. I just wanted to say thank you to Uncle Jim for this thread, and thanks to others who have posted on it as well. The advice about celtic knots was very helpful, I turned out not to be able to draw one to save my life but I got a book on them so that's all right. For the first time I have a plot that works and which I might actually stick to. I apologise for rambling, I just thought I ought to post.

[black winged fighter]

Hi, Khilari, and congrats on the plot luck.

On themes...I used to worry about them being 'too obvious' or 'too obscure,' but I have decided that different events in people's lives lead them to interperate real and fictional situations differently than I do.
So, my advice would be to write a story that speaks strongly to you - whether you can pinpoint the 'exact' theme or not - and let other people worry about what your story means to them.

[scribbler1382]

Pointing up the theme is what you do during the second draft editing.

While writing your second draft knowing what the theme is will help you decide on the right words. Remove or change those that do not support the theme (if they are not already revealing character or advancing plot).

Excellent advice, Jim. (As always.) I forget his name, but a sculptor was once asked how he took a non-descript block of stone and shaped it into such beautiful things. He said "If I want to sculpt a tree, I just cut off the pieces that don't look like a tree."

Same can probably be said for the second (and third and fourth and...) draft. Build the block with your first draft. Then cut the non-book parts away. Simple! :)

[Liam Jackson]

Welcome to the site, forum, and thread. Glad to have you join us.

[James D. Macdonald]

Heh. I have some doubt that LOTR would make it out of a slush pile today.

Why not?

It's the sequel to a successful book, and it takes off like a shot. You don't run into any backstory until you hit the Council of Elrond halfway through the first book, and by then you're surrounded by Black Riders, Frodo's been stabbed and nearly died, and you're seriously wondering what's going on.

[Nangleator]

Why not?
Oh, yeah. I forgot how it started. I was thinking of the trilogy as a whole, which I remember being a bit wordy. Sure, I enjoyed all those words but would that style survive an editor's desk today?

[Liam Jackson]

In today's socio-political climate, I'm not sure Tolkein would have written the story in exactly the same way. Perhaps his style would have undergone a stylistic evolution, more in step with the times.

In the end, story wins out. If a modern editor were to get past the first chapter, Tolkein would probably do quite well as a first time author in today's market. Interesting question.

[Aconite]

I was thinking of the trilogy as a whole, which I remember being a bit wordy. Sure, I enjoyed all those words but would that style survive an editor's desk today?

Robert Jordan. Terry Brooks.

[black winged fighter]

Hi all. I posted something in the SYW forum under SciFi/Fantasy. I'd be honoured of some of you wonderful people would take a look at it.

Thanks.

[Lenora Rose]

Robert Jordan. Terry Brooks.

Robert Jordan didn't start with wordy tomes, for all they're his best known thing. (he may well ahve always been wordy, I don't know. I should also note that the first book, at least, actually went somewhere with all the words, though I'm told the later series slowed down drastically.)

Terry Brooks started right at the beginning of the fantasy wave begun when Lord of the Rings really took off.

Neither is a good example for a First-time author in an established genre. (Though if you see a similar wave coming up in another genre, and the book in you fits, push!)

That being said, they're wordy in a different way from Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings is wordy due to style, and in a poetic way that is a direct and deliberate tribute to the sources that inspired it from the Eddas to the English Countryside. And, of course, Tolkien was a deep lover of language, and took a great deal of care with every phrase, tinkering with it (Even past publication, IIRC), trying to make it that much more correct.

In that way, its nearest current relation is probably Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. Which is, of course, a bestseller (Though there are plenty of people who don't like that, either, and usually for the wordiness.)

I don't get either the poetry or the obvious obsession with just the right word/phrase from Brooks or Jordan. I get more the impression that they are wordy because they do not take the same care to choose just the right words -- and therefore have to use several in its place. Kinda like me in most of my posts.:cool:

I also think the section "Concerning Hobbits" (the separated introductory infodump) in LotR is a testament to the prologue commentary earlier in this same topic - Some people can't see why it's there, and some can't imagine why anyone would ever skip it.

[jlawrenceperry]

Tolkien wrote as closely as he could to a high mythic style. It was not a novel in the purest sense of the word. If you compare his fiction to that of other early novelists such as Robert Louis Stephenson, even Sir Walter Scott or Alexandre Dumas, you see that even those three had a keener grasp on dramatic prose novel style than did Tolkien. And that of course is by his design. He never intended to be a novelist, but a mythologist.

Jordan and Brooks write novels, and in a clearly modern dramatic prose style. Wordiness has nothing to do with it. Now, perhaps the exposition of long Fantasy novels owes much to Tolkien's style, but again that is mythic storytelling. That's why everyone beats to death "show don't tell"--except Fantasy seems to be the most lenient genre for breaking that rule. Fantasy readers are more accepting because we know we're settling down for more of a legend than a regular novel.

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's something worth reading:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/?ci=16582



GALLUP NEWS SERVICE

PRINCETON, NJ -- About one in every two Americans is engrossed in some type of book, according to Gallup's latest measure of the public's reading habits. About half of Americans also say they have read more than five books in the past year, not much different from the number reported a decade and a half ago. There is no widespread pattern as to how people select their books -- some choose by the author, others based on recommendations from their friends, and still others by browsing in a bookstore or library.

The poll, conducted May 20-22, finds 47% of adults saying they are presently reading a book, up from 37% who reported that in 1990, and 23% in 1957.



It goes on, in some detail, about reading habits and buying habits of Americans.

If you're in this business as a business, it behooves you to be aware of this stuff.

[Ken Schneider]

Question posed to me: Mr. Schneider, when is your next book coming out?

My answer: I have a book, but no publisher.

People who have read my first book, and liked it, are now asking about the next one.


Question to you: I will now loose my small but wanting audience before I find publisher?

Question: Be honest about the experience of the first book with other publisher?

Question: Hold them off?

Question: Get some printed at Kinkos to keep them happy?

Conundrum 101.

Signed, flapping in the breeze of P.A.

[James D. Macdonald]

Question posed to me: Mr. Schneider, when is your next book coming out?

My answer: I have a book, but no publisher.

People who have read my first book, and liked it, are now asking about the next one.


This is normal and to be expected. "I'll let you know when it's coming out" is always a good answer.

Question to you: I will now loose my small but wanting audience before I find publisher?


Nah. They'll still be there.

Question: Be honest about the experience of the first book with other publisher?

Don't fib, but there's no reason to tell them everything you know. Your current book will stand on its own. You don't need to mention your previous book.

Question: Hold them off?


Hold who off? The hordes of zobmis surrounding your house?

Question: Get some printed at Kinkos to keep them happy?

Who, the fans asking about your next book? You could always ask them if they want to be beta readers.

Conundrum 101.

Signed, flapping in the breeze of P.A.

Life's a ***** and then you die.

[Ken Schneider]

Thanks Jim.

But no, they're not beating the door in.

I do get asked about the next one three to four times a week. Always by someone different, peole I didn't know read it. Some of them I know, and some that know me.

Just frustration I guess.

I'll keep plugging away and submitting. I'm not sure if there is anyone gaulible enough to accept.

[James D. Macdonald]

You've written your second book, right? You're sending it around? Write another book. Keep going.

Nothing about this job is easy. Nothing is sure. We just have to do our best.

[Ken Schneider]

Sending the second around, working on the third, soon to be finished and placed in the drawer. Will start another.

How many do you write and send into circulation?

I know it isn't easy, nothing worth it salt is. I love what I'm doing, but doubt seeps into the cracks of this writers mind. I have no intention of giving up, maybe it will turn out to be a life long hobby. If it does, then I have enjoyed my own stories.

[maestrowork]

That'd be difficult to do with first person, but not impossible. You just have to imagine being the guy (Borne?) and keep the POV straight. It's like role-playing game. You have to think that you're the chacacter and what happens to you. Obviously, you won't be able to see the "red dot" on your forehead... but can you feel it? Does your training help you feel that someone has aimed a gun at your head?... etc. etc. Then you will fight the guy even if you don't know who he is...

Edit: if the red dot's on his friend's forehead, then no problem. You can describe it. Still, the rest applies...

So basically even though as the author, you know exactly what is happening and who is doing what, you have to do role-play with your character and pretend that you don't know all the facts. Then describe all the action through your character's perceptions.

[Roger J Carlson]

Thanks Jim.

But no, they're not beating the door in.

I do get asked about the next one three to four times a week. Always by someone different, peole I didn't know read it. Some of them I know, and some that know me.

Just frustration I guess.

I'll keep plugging away and submitting. I'm not sure if there is anyone gaulible enough to accept.
I'd definitely keep their addresses -- email and otherwise -- to keep them abreast of new developments. If you get enough of them, that's a pretty good targeted marketing campaign.

Question for Jim, though:

Is it a good idea to mention this (readers asking for more) to an agent or publisher when querying?

[maestrowork]

It's like, in 1st POV, why would he say "the bullet shattered through the window and pierced guy #2's skull, spreading blood up the wall" - would YOU think that? Or narrate it?

But you're writing in past tense. It's allowed.

Certainly you can do the internal thoughts... but that's not as interesting as the actual narrative in an action scene...

"Urgency" is a state of mind. If you narrative it just right, and the pacing is superb, no readers are going to stop and think, "Wait a minute, how does he have the time to narrate everything?"

Oh, and again: it's written in past tense. It's allowed.

[azbikergirl]

When writing in first person, is it the reader's expectation, then, that the events being told in the story are over? Or could it be told sort of as a day-by-day diary sort of thing. IOW, can a first person narrator die at the end without annoying the reader?

[Christine N.]

The other thing you might want to do is use short, succinct sentences during high action scenes. Would your MC actually process all the information you're telling us he did in that minute instant?

ie: "I heard the glass shatter. I turned, lunged toward (#2), but it was too late. Blood and gray matter were already splattered across the wall behind him."

Or something like that. He's only going to recognize bits of information, so if you impart to the reader a bunch of detail, it's not going to be beliveable and will drag your narrative down.

See how much I've learned from "Self Editing..." already? LOL

[Liam Jackson]

Pretty good discussion. *bump*

[James D. Macdonald]

IOW, can a first person narrator die at the end without annoying the reader?

It can be done. See, for example, All Quiet on the Western Front.

[James D. Macdonald]

I think my problem is with urgency, and having everything coming crashing down around the guys ears all at once, reacting quickly.

Use an appropriate level of detail to regulate pace. If he's moving fast he's not noticing the chintz-covered tea cosy.

Find a first-person novel you admire.

Retype a scene that does what you want to do. See how the author did it.

[reph]

When writing in first person, is it the reader's expectation, then, that the events being told in the story are over? Or could it be told sort of as a day-by-day diary sort of thing. IOW, can a first person narrator die at the end without annoying the reader?
Either kind of story can be written: events long past or told soon after they happen. First-person narrators do sometimes die at the end. I don't know how you could report your own death in past tense, though.

Maybe you'd have to leave out the very last moment. "The guards marched me down the hall to the gas chamber and strapped me into the chair. Soon I was alone. The faces of my victims floated across my field of vision, and I inhaled. THE END"

[James D. Macdonald]

Is it a good idea to mention this (readers asking for more) to an agent or publisher when querying?

What purpose would it serve? "All my friends think it's great" doesn't mean much unless your friends are Tom Clancy and Stephen King.

Readers asking for more should be a mark to you, however, that you're doing something right. Readers, especially if they're total strangers, asking for more is exactly what'll move those books in the bookstores.

[reph]

Death of narrator. One of Samuel Beckett's stories ends "I swallowed my calmative."

[aadams73]

Last question: Do Stephen King or Dean Koontz have an action filled 1st person books? Because my Dad's shelves are stacked full of 'em.


Try Dean Koontz's "Odd Thomas". It's one of the best first person books I've ever read and I rate it among his top three books.

[James D. Macdonald]

Christine is mostly in first person.

[Christine N.]

There was a big article in my paper today, I think it was an AP article. Elizabeth Kostova, a FIRST TIME novelist from Ann Arbor just got a 2 million dollar advance on her Dracula themed novel. And that was at an auction.

It can be done folks.

[Christine N.]

LOL. But hey, 2 million more than makes up for it, I think. Most writers won't see that their entire careers.

[James D. Macdonald]

Film rights were picked up by Sony.

Good on her!

[triceretops]

Was it narative non-fiction or a novel? Is the article available?

Tri

[James D. Macdonald]

Most writers won't see that their entire careers.

She may not see it either. When the size of an advance is announced, it includes all the possible escalators. Things like, If it's made into a film, $50K on the day of first principle photography, $50K on the day of release, $100K if it opens in the top five. $100K if it's a Oprah's Book Club selection. $1,000,000 if it spends more than 10 weeks as a #1 New York Times Best Seller. $50K if you appear on Good Morning America.

I'm up to one and a quarter million already there, and not a dime I can take to the bank.

[scribbler1382]

Was it narative non-fiction or a novel? Is the article available?

Tri

Narrative non-fiction for a Dracula-based book? That BETTER be a movie! :)

[Christine N.]

Thanks for posting the article.


Hah! An Oprah's book club selection? She only promotes books by dead people now, didn't you know? Someone snubbed her or something, and now she doesn't deal with live authors.

Her summer reading is three books by Faulkner.

[Liam Jackson]

Talk abut perseverance. Elizabeth Kostova's success story should inspire a few more hours of BIC time this week. Go get 'em, folks!

[James D. Macdonald]

She only promotes books by dead people now, didn't you know? Someone snubbed her or something, and now she doesn't deal with live authors.

That was Jonathan Frazen; the novel was The Corrections.

She doesn't touch fantasy and science fiction in any case, so who cares?

[Susan Gable]

That was Jonathan Frazen; the novel was The Corrections.

She doesn't touch fantasy and science fiction in any case, so who cares?

Or romance, either. She doesn't believe in happy endings. Oh, okay, sorry, I thought that her life from poverty to one of the most powerful women in America, was sort of a happy ending. But what do I know? <G>

Susan G.

[maestrowork]

Good thing I write mainstream/lit stuff... bad thing I guess I'll have to die first...

[Liam Jackson]

Frazen was apparently concerned he would be tagged as a 'chick-lit' author if she endorsed him. IF that's true, I'm not sure I really understand his problem. I thought you wrote books to sell them. Doesn't matter if it's a man, woman, child, or Giant Schnauzer at the cash register. What am I missing?

[Dawno]

I find some interesting elements in the press release quoted upthread.

#1: The auction was a year ago and I don't recall hearing about it then. Apparently it's smarter to talk about it just prior to the release of the book. It's generating buzz about the money almost as if mentioning that will result a self-fulfilling prophecy of fabulous sales.
#2 The comparison to The Da Vinci Code: if you liked The Da Vinci Code you'll love The Historian. Again there's an assumed audience of 17 million + readers being primed to buy this book.
#3: The story of the writer is compelling, her early years, her travels and how that background adds realism to the story. Frankly I want to read the book now because I like the author. I've never been a big fan of Dracula stories.

I bet there's something worth learning here...I'll be darned if I can figure it out this early in the day. :o

[HConn]

It took Kostova 10 years to craft the meticulously researched Historian...

Never underestimate the value of research.

And Franzen is a Dante writer. (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/20/1518217) Becoming a Beowulf writer would ruin his career.

I've been away for a while, but I'm glad to see this thread is still hopping. And I'm looking forward to hearing Uncle Jim and his wife speak at Writers Weekend.

Take care, all

[Liam Jackson]

Nice to see you back, H. Hope you enjoy the conference.

[scribbler1382]

#2 The comparison to The Da Vinci Code: if you liked The Da Vinci Code you'll love The Historian. Again there's an assumed audience of 17 million + readers being primed to buy this book.


Whoa, whoa, whoa. I missed that the first time. The book is called "The Historian"? IMO, that thing's going to sit on the shelves longer than organic vegetables in a candy store.

There was another book out right after Brown's that sort of tackled the same arena called The Codex, by Lev Grossman. Very nice book, but no where near the numbers of Brown's (Lord, what is?) "Codex" is just not as enticing as a title with both "Da Vinci" and "Code" in it, IMO. Of course, the book itself, content, slant, etc. is what keeps things going, but you need to get that thing off the shelf for people to read it and start the word of mouth. The title "The Historian" starts people's mouths moving, all right, in a yawn.

Just my .02 cents.

[Christine N.]

Ah, but people are already talking about it, her publisher is probably going to pay for the "good spot" in the stores. Buzz is biz, my friend.

Much like Jonathan Strange, I'd bet people anticipate the release and pre-order the book.

I can't figure out Dan Brown. I like the DVC, but it was a rehash of Angels and Demons. I still can't figure out if he became a better writer, got a better editor, or snagged a better agent.

[Ken Schneider]

? I am under the impression that most publishers want third person.

Third. (He/ she) walked down the street smoking a cuban cigar, looking the the windows of run down shops and open bar room doors.

First. (I) walked down the street smoking a cuban cigar, looking in the windows of run down shops and listening to the music flowing out from the bars.

Second ?

[Susan Gable]

? I am under the impression that most publishers want third person.

Third. (He/ she) walked down the street smoking a cuban cigar, looking the the windows of run down shops and open bar room doors.

First. (I) walked down the street smoking a cuban cigar, looking in the windows of run down shops and listening to the music flowing out from the bars.

Second ?

Second is YOU. (You) walked down the street, smoking a cuban cigar, looing in the windows of run down shops...

I'd say that there are still many books written in first person. More areas are now opening up to that in the women's fiction genre. I'd also wager to say that very few books are written in second-person. It's kind of awkward.

Third person happens to be my personal favorite. :)

Susan G.

[Sailor Kenshin]

I can't figure out Dan Brown. I like the DVC, but it was a rehash of Angels and Demons. I still can't figure out if he became a better writer, got a better editor, or snagged a better agent.



Probably all of the above; this comes from a once-removed source. Brown spent a lot of time flogging his books. Didn't you see him on Book-TV a while back? Very clever; Book-Tv is for NON- fiction.

[Christine N.]

Those "Choose Your Own Adventure" books are in second person. I used to have a bunch of them when I was a kid.

[HConn]

Bright Lights Big City is second person. It's a good book. The second person becomes invisible pretty quickly.

[scribbler1382]

Those "Choose Your Own Adventure" books are in second person. I used to have a bunch of them when I was a kid.

Before I ever knew it was a book, I played the Infocom text adventure version of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which started:

You wake up. The room is spinning very gently round your head. Or at least it would be if you could see it which you can't.

It is pitch black.

In the 80's, these games were all the rage, and they were all in 2nd person. Which, IMO, made them more immediate and increased your involvement. Not for a second did the tense ever even seem apparent.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Not for a second did the tense ever even seem apparent.

Second tense always annoys the %$#@ out of me. Come to think of it, so does sustained present tense.

[Ken Schneider]

Second is YOU. (You) walked down the street, smoking a cuban cigar, looing in the windows of run down shops...

I'd say that there are still many books written in first person. More areas are now opening up to that in the women's fiction genre. I'd also wager to say that very few books are written in second-person. It's kind of awkward.

Third person happens to be my personal favorite. :)

Susan G.


Thanks Susan.

Ken

[PattiTheWicked]

Before I ever knew it was a book, I played the Infocom text adventure version of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which started:

You wake up. The room is spinning very gently round your head. Or at least it would be if you could see it which you can't.

It is pitch black.

In the 80's, these games were all the rage, and they were all in 2nd person. Which, IMO, made them more immediate and increased your involvement. Not for a second did the tense ever even seem apparent.

Oh my gods. I just had a Zork-flashback.

There is a door leading to the west, and a small hole in the wall to the south. Upon the east wall is a large tapestry, moving slightly.

[DreamWeaver]

Frazen was apparently concerned he would be tagged as a 'chick-lit' author...Doesn't matter if it's a man, woman, child, or Giant Schnauzer at the cash register. What am I missing?I believe you're missing his fear of getting Girl Cooties. Uncle Jim's partner in crime, Debra Doyle, wrote a very good essay on it at http://www.sff.net/paradise/girlcooties.htp (Uncle Jim, I hope it's okay to post that link. If not, let me know). Her essay talks about hard SF, but I'm thinking the effect also works for people who feel chick lit and serious lit are mutually exclusive (that would not include me).

Kris

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh my gods. I just had a Zork-flashback.


You are in a maze of twisty little messageboards, all alike.


===============

(And it's perfectly swell to post a link to Doyle's essay. She wrote it to be read.)

[Liam Jackson]

Girl cooties! Dante writers, Beowoulf writers... Who knew? I should be so lucky...unfortunate. Whatever.

Attention all men, women, children and giant schnauzers...Just buy the book. Makes a great doorstop, waffle trivet, sibling swatter, party hat, replacement hubcap for a 1967 Ford Galazy. High fiber, low fat, zero cholesterol. Sprinkled lightly with humor and chocked full of "Ut Oh."

This was a paid spot. Jim, the check is in the mail.

[Dawno]

Girl cooties! Dante writers, Beowoulf writers... Who knew? I should be so lucky...unfortunate. Whatever.

Attention all men, women, children and giant schnauzers...Just buy the book. Makes a great doorstop, waffle trivet, sibling swatter, party hat, replacement hubcap for a 1967 Ford Galazy. High fiber, low fat, zero cholesterol. Sprinkled lightly with humor and chocked full of "Ut Oh."

This was a paid spot. Jim, the check is in the mail.

What book am I buying? My giant schnauzer and his lawy...uh, anyway, he wants to know.

Did everyone go check out the Lulu Experiment (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=215986#post215986)? Book is already up and for sale. I believe it didn't cost Uncle Jim 'one thin dime' either.

[BenMears]

Cool story about "The Historian."

Speaking of things a writer can learn from his/her father, Jackal, did you say that your father had a bookcase full of the works of two of the most popular contemporary novelists? And that you don't know what's in them?

I humbly suggest that a little reading is in order...

[James D. Macdonald]

What book am I buying? My giant schnauzer and his lawy...uh, anyway, he wants to know.

Liam's book is OFFSPRING, and the details are here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9861&page=1).

Did everyone go check out the Lulu Experiment (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=215986#post215986)? Book is already up and for sale. I believe it didn't cost Uncle Jim 'one thin dime' either.

Yep. The book is up (http://www.lulu.com/content/132312), cost to me zero, time elapsed about nine hours (much of it spent looking for the software I'd need to create a .pdf and trying to figure out how to use my graphics program), and hacking around. Also: supper. And chatting with a friend. It should go quicker next time, if there is a next time.

NOTE: I don't recommend self-publishing to anyone outside of very narrowly defined areas. Specialized non-fiction, niche fiction, poetry. Anything where you know the audience pretty much by name or expect to be looking them in the eye. A defined audience that you can get to is the baseline sine qua non.

This was an experiment, using a public domain text.

[Dawno]

I was wondering if anyone had read No Plot? No Problem! by the founder of National Novel Writing Month, Chris Baty. Is it just a shill piece for NaNoWriMo? I'd be interested in opinions.

[James D. Macdonald]

I skimmed it in a bookstore. It looks amusing enough, but doesn't look like a how-to if your problem is that you don't have a plot.

(If that is your problem, go here: The Evil Overlord Plot Generator (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/2002_06.html#000290).)

[BenMears]

I have a copy of the book and have read all but the last three chapters. It is amusing, but I would say there is little in the way of useful ideas, other than the overarching idea of getting stuff written by trying to write it fast. Which can be a valuable idea if you are new at this, as I am.

Rather than the book shilling for NaNoWriMo, I think it is a celebration of the event. And of course, he can make a few bucks from the book, where the event is free. No problem with that.

As for information about the event, you can get plenty off their web site. The book has more jokes, or attempted jokes. ;-)

[Dawno]

I skimmed it in a bookstore. It looks amusing enough, but doesn't look like a how-to if your problem is that you don't have a plot.

(If that is your problem, go here: The Evil Overlord Plot Generator (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/2002_06.html#000290).)

Nope, plot isn't the problem and besides I have the whole Uncle Jim thread indexed up to this past weekend so I know exactly where to find great advice about plot! (yeah, yeah, shameless plug for my own thread)

I work in the IT dept. at a high tech company. We live and die by deadlines. I heard this was a book about the NaNoWriMo concept of writing a whole novel to a short deadline and cleverly done, so I wondered if anyone else had read it.

BTW, I *love* EOPG. Have it bookmarked on both laptops (home and office)

[Pencilone]

I'm rewriting the plot to sharpen the conflict, to make it even more exciting, etc., etc.


While doing this, the ideas seem to flow and I find myself even thinking at a possible series (although, I want each novel to be stand alone too, I might find ways to bring them all together when needed).


It's a contemporary futuristic fantasy and I have 2 endings in mind that both seem suitable, but they have different flavours. In one I kill one of the secondary guys (but essential to the climax) and that's it, he is gone forever (yes, maybe I could resurrect him in another volume, I don't know). The point is that that he is a normal 'Joe down the street guy' and although sad, the ending will help the reader identify more with the whole situation.


In the second version of the ending, the normal guy Joe is also the missing part of the puzzle, but at the same time I reveal that actually he is a very special guy in undercover. I often wondered why do I need him, why is he there, but he has a special purpose in the end and, besides, he survives the end so I could use him in another novel. The point here is that all the other guys are special, while this one made a nice contrast by being normal and humble till almost the end when we discover that he is special too.


The problem is that I like both endings and somehow they are not too different …


(I wonder if anyone could make sense of what I said)


Pencilone

[maestrowork]

What do the characters tell you?

[Pencilone]

Maestrowork, Thanks for giving it a go.:)

They both pull my hands in different directions...

I'm starting to be tempted to kill the guy and maybe resurect him in another book... I don't know... He became special to me somehow. My heart aches to kill him.

[KimJo]

I had a character in my YA fantasy series who I was sure was going to die in book 5. He survived. I thought he was going to die in book 7. Survived again. I was 100% sure he was going to die in book 10, the last one of the series. Nope. Stubborn little bugger.

[Liam Jackson]

One possible solution is to kill him (if that truly seems the best route) but use the char in a prequel story(s). Maybe a story that features/focuses on his special qualities, etc...

[maestrowork]

He became special to me somehow. My heart aches to kill him.

That's not a good enough reason to keep him. I've killed quite a few characters even though I'm fond of them.

If the characters says, "I don't know, kill me or not, it's your choice" then you need to do what makes the story the strongest. If the story is strong either way, then flip a coin.

You can also bring the character back. A Prequel? A spin-off? A guest appearance in an alternate universe? And if the book doesn't sell or if the character is not special to your READERS, then the point is moot. All it is is another way for the author to procrastinate.

[astonwest]

I had a character in my YA fantasy series who I was sure was going to die in book 5. He survived. I thought he was going to die in book 7. Survived again. I was 100% sure he was going to die in book 10, the last one of the series. Nope. Stubborn little bugger.

I had the opposite problem...had a character who I thought would make it to the end of the book for a showdown with the MC...but he ended up dead by mid-book...stupid fool...sigh.

[oswann]

I killed off everyone and realized I was only in chapter four. Damn it.


Os.

[James D. Macdonald]

Do the readers care about the character?

=============

You can always bring the character back in another book, but with a different name and a wig.

[Pencilone]

Yes, the reader cares about him. The hero protects him sacrificing all his other friends. I hope the reader will be heartbroken when he's going to die.

[James D. Macdonald]

Then do whatever is best for your story.

====================

When you kill characters ... it's okay. It's like in the movies -- when they kill a character they don't kill the actor. He can appear in another film.

===================

While no one has managed to define Science Fiction or Fantasy ... RWA has defined Romance. Here it is:

http://www.rwanational.org/press_releases/rwa_defines_romance.htm




RWA Defines the Romance Novel

(HOUSTON, TX) -- Romance Writers of America has outlined two elements -- a central love story and an emotionally satisfying ending -- as the crux of their association’s official definition of a romance novel.

"There’s no doubt about it, when you call a book a ‘romance’ it gets attention," says RWA President Tara Taylor Quinn. "But there are so many books promoted as ‘romances’ or ‘love stories,’ readers, writers and reporters who are considering our industry statistics are confused as to what we mean. We see new titles released every month -- from non-fiction how-to manuals to women’s fiction -- that are being touted as ‘a new romance’ or a ‘timeless love story.’ Only a percentage are actually romances. Many ‘relationship’ novels come close to being a romance in our sense of the word, but in the end they don’t meet the expectations our readers hold about the genre of romance. They are not the same, and it’s confusing.

"In short, we found ourselves needing to officially define what a romance novel really is," Quinn says.

According to RWA’s official definition, a romance is a book wherein the love story is the main focus of the novel, and the end of the book is emotionally satisfying.

Jennifer Crusie, a best-selling romance author and member of the RWA committee that wrote the official definition, says the central-love-story aspect of the definition means "the main plot of the romance must concern two people falling in love and struggling to make the relationship work.

"The conflict in the book centers on the love story.

"The climax in the book resolves the love story.

"A writer is welcome to as many subplots as she likes as long as the relationship conflict is the main story," says Crusie.

This aspect of the definition rules out books that contain a romance subplot, but a main focus of -- just to name a few -- mystery, social or business struggle of some sort, or intrigue. A true romance novel must have the love story as the main focus of the book. Things like mystery, intrigue, and other action may, and often do, appear as secondary plots in romance novels.

"Romance novels end in a way that makes the reader feel good," says Crusie of the second aspect of the romance-novel definition, the emotionally optimistic ending. "Romance novels are based on the idea of an innate emotional justice -- the notion that good people in the world are rewarded and evil people are punished. In a romance, the lovers who risk and struggle for each other and their relationship are rewarded with emotional justice and unconditional love," Crusie says.

This part of the definition excludes the type of novels that are most often incorrectly considered to be romances: love stories with unhappy endings. Bittersweet endings, like the conclusion to the love story in the film Titanic, for example, or the end of the novel Bridges of Madison County, prevent otherwise love-story focused books from being true romances.

"RWA established a simple and straight forward acid test for classifying a book as a popular romance novel. Our central-love-story/emotionally-satisfying-ending criteria will allow writers, readers, and other interested parties to fully understand what RWA means when it discusses ‘the romance novel,’ and all the statistics and demographics that refer to it," Quinn says.

The members of Romance Writers of America -- an 9,000-member strong writers association -- write the romance novels that represent 55% of all mass-market paperback fiction purchased in the United States, and that generate $1 billion per year in sales.



Just so you know.

[Kate StAmour]

I am considering attending the conference this year, if it isn't too late to get in, that is. My only concern is that I'm not sure I'll have a polished MS by conference time. What I am wondering is, is it worth it to attend? I'm sure that there will be so much more going on there than pitching, but I don't want to go and feel like I am wasting the time of "important" people. Does that make any sense?

Kate

[James D. Macdonald]

Kate -- go, even if you don't pitch anything. Keep your eyes and ears open. Be the best listener in the room.

Why would you want to cut yourself off from your colleagues, from networking and information?

[DaveKuzminski]

Ah, all this talk about killing characters brings up a problem that I'm sure writers have faced before. At the moment, I'm trying to figure out who is supposed to die to provide the excuse for a conflict between a loose coalition of city states and a powerful empire. I suspect it will be someone I least expect.

That happened to me before when I had two small boats go up against a raider. They managed to fight the raider to a standstill, but lost all but two crew members and one junior officer in doing so. That was all the more unexpected because none of them were main characters at that point, but they went on to become main characters.

[Kate StAmour]

Kate -- go, even if you don't pitch anything. Keep your eyes and ears open. Be the best listener in the room.

Why would you want to cut yourself off from your colleagues, from networking and information?

Good question, and sage advice. I have contacted my local chapter for more details. Thank you!

Kate

[Roger J Carlson]

I am considering attending the conference this year, if it isn't too late to get in, that is. My only concern is that I'm not sure I'll have a polished MS by conference time. What I am wondering is, is it worth it to attend? I'm sure that there will be so much more going on there than pitching, but I don't want to go and feel like I am wasting the time of "important" people. Does that make any sense?

KateI had similar questions about attending this year's Book Expo in New York. As an unpublished writer, the Expo isn't even for me. It's for publishers and booksellers. Still, I had the opportunity to go and I went. At the very least, I figured that I'd learn more about how the publishing industry works.

I talked to a LOT of nice people. I discovered that publishers are mostly just plain folks and are happy to talk to you about what they do, regardless of who you are. I talked to them about what they are publishing and what they see coming in the future.

But the BEST thing happened when I talked to a very nice lady at TOR Books. I told her that I don't see any juvenile science fiction. Fantasy, suspense, thriller, sure -- but no SF. The lady introduced me to the publisher of their Young Adult SF/Fantasy imprint. The publisher said one of the problems was a lack of good YA SF manuscripts. When I said I had written one, she asked me to send it to her -- Requested by her! WHOOPEEE!

Granted, this is an unusual circumstance and won't apply to everybody. And I'm NOT suggesting you go to Book Expo and hawk your books. That wasn't my intention when I went. But the point is that you never know what connections you are going to make until you get out there and make some. You won't do it sitting at home.

[Kate StAmour]

But the BEST thing happened when I talked to a very nice lady at TOR Books. I told her that I don't see any juvenile science fiction. Fantasy, suspense, thriller, sure -- but no SF. The lady introduced me to the publisher of their Young Adult SF/Fantasy imprint. The publisher said one of the problems was a lack of good YA SF manuscripts. When I said I had written one, she asked me to send it to her -- Requested by her! WHOOPEEE!

.

WOW!! Thank you for sharing your inspirational story!

[Nangleator]

...My heart aches to kill him.
Perhaps it's best to choose the course that evokes more emotion. Maybe that's a foolproof indicator.

Shouldn't we be kicking the reader's heart around? (As long as we kiss it and make it better by the end of the book.) Of course, that involves beating up on our own hearts, too.

In science fiction, it's probably also a good idea to spend some time on the reader's brain. Not kicking it around, but massaging it and feeding it lovely little ideas.

[James D. Macdonald]

Since you mention Tor and the BEA, here's an After Action Report (complete with Giant Weiner costume).

http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006391.html#006391

[scribbler1382]

Perhaps it's best to choose the course that evokes more emotion. Maybe that's a foolproof indicator.

Shouldn't we be kicking the reader's heart around? (As long as we kiss it and make it better by the end of the book.) Of course, that involves beating up on our own hearts, too.

In science fiction, it's probably also a good idea to spend some time on the reader's brain. Not kicking it around, but massaging it and feeding it lovely little ideas.

Exactly. If the writer doesn't care about a character they kill, then why on earth would the reader?

[James D. Macdonald]

When I said I had written one, she asked me to send it to her -- Requested by her! WHOOPEEE!

I presume you've aready sent off the manuscript, with the cover letter quoting this conversation, yes?

[Roger J Carlson]

I presume you've aready sent off the manuscript, with the cover letter quoting this conversation, yes?Why no. Do you think I should? <GRIN>

Yes, of course I did! I had a copy of the manuscript at the show with me. I almost sent that off, but I decided to spend some time writing the very best cover letter I could. And boy did I agonize over it. Then I had several people read it and give me their opinions.

I kept the verbage to a minimum. I reminded her of our conversation, said some nice things about the friendly people at TOR (all perfectly true, by the way), gave her the length of the story, and finished with multiple ways to reach me.

The Post Office said she should get it by Wednesday. That's probably best anyway, since she may have stuff to clean up after the show.

Now the agony begins!

[James D. Macdonald]

Now the agony begins!

No, my friend. Now you forget all about that manuscript and start writing your next book.

(If you haven't already compiled a list of which agents you'd like to be represented by, though, now's the time....)

[Roger J Carlson]

No, my friend. Now you forget all about that manuscript and start writing your next book.
Oh, I have. I've got the first draft of a 125,000 word fantasy finished that I'm currently trying to whittle down to 100,000 words. I've also written an outline and several chapters of a sequel to the first book, just in case they ask.

(If you haven't already compiled a list of which agents you'd like to be represented by, though, now's the time....)
Interestly, on the day I mailed the manuscript, I got a rejection from an agent. She said the story had possibilites, but wasn't for her and she was too busy and good luck with the next agent. Feeling just a tad petty, I wrote back and told her about Tor asking for the manuscript and so I probably won't need representation and thanks anyway.

But I realize I DO need an agent if they offer something. I'm not really sure whom to ask. Some top-flight agents have rejected it. I don't really feel like asking them again now. Should I swallow my pique and ask them anyway? Or should I find someone who hasn't rejected it?

[HConn]

Pencilone, be very wary of how you handle end-of-book revelations. If your book is written in such a way that you could have the revelation or not, then the revelation isn't set up. You would have to go back through the book and set up the big reveal so that it doesn't come out of left field.

[Roger J Carlson]

Oh, and another question. Assuming I have an offer from the publisher (a big if), is it appropriate to call agents? Or should I write letters with a SASE and all? What about email?

Thanks.

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh, and another question. Assuming I have an offer from the publisher (a big if), is it appropriate to call agents? Or should I write letters with a SASE and all? What about email?

Thanks.


Beware pique. It doesn't have a place in this business.

And yes, when you get an offer, then a telephone call is appropriate.

Start with the best on your list, even if they already told you "not interested." You've just gone into a new inning.

[HConn]

I've been thinking about something I visualize as a string. It's the line of words I lay on the page as I write.

Reading and writing is very linear, and I've been trying to think of the best way to take advantage of that. I've been looking at books as a long string of words. How best to build one event on another. How best to give the impression of hte real world, where many things can happen at once, while in a book it's

one

word

after

another.

The best I can do for the latter is prioritize for the character, mentioning the things they care about most before anything else.

For the former, I'm not sure how to analyze it. There must be a simple way to think about the reader, and the ways to draw the reader along the string.

I'm just putting some ideas out there to see what echoes I get. I don't have any specific questions or assertions.

And I'm not procrastinating, honest. I'm getting my pages done every week. :)

[Roger J Carlson]

Beware pique. It doesn't have a place in this business.

And yes, when you get an offer, then a telephone call is appropriate.

Start with the best on your list, even if they already told you "not interested." You've just gone into a new inning.Yeah. I guess you're right. Nuts!

Thanks for the insight.

[loquax]

Hi everyone, Ben here - long time lurker, first time poster. I started reading the thread when it was on the old site, got to about page 30, then realised that there were a million more, and skipped to the end. Hope I didn't miss anything...

Anyway, I wanted to ask a question regarding artistry within writing. I've seen Jim say something about how every word should either reveal character, enforce a theme, or further the plot. Is this rule rigid? It's just that I can't help but slip in a paragraph of seemingly (in your eyes) unnecessary description every now and then. Sometimes it would be to slow down the mood and let the reader recover from a fast action scene - sometimes to suck them in further - other times to just give them something really juicy to look at. Being a first-time author, would this annoy publishers who want to keep the words to a minimum? How pent up are they about keeping things concise?

Cheers

[maestrowork]

My opinion: if you can do that to "enforce the theme" it would be very nice... sometimes narrative is used to set up the mood -- in a sense the descriptions do move the plot. I think setting is part of plot. Now if you just stop and wax poetic about a beautiful sunset with no rhyme and reason with regard to the plot, the characters or the theme, then I'd say you're wasting words. But that, my pal, is just my opinion.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's just that I can't help but slip in a paragraph of seemingly (in your eyes) unnecessary description every now and then.

Are the readers likely to skim it?

[maestrowork]

On a related note (and after discussion with my writing group)...

I tend to "underwrite" as opposed to "overwrite." Often I find myself having to go back and insert/expand/explain things that are perfectly clear in my head but have somehow failed to transpire on the page. Most often, my readers will tell me "I am holding back" or "something is not clear to me" or "this is a little too short -- you skimmed over this."

How do you get over that? Do I just write anything that comes to mind, even if my internal editor says, "that's just obvious, on the nose -- do you really have to say that?" I know: "if the marble is not there, you can't chisel it away..."

The thing is, I can approach this either way: underwrite, then fill in the blanks/expand later. Or overwrite, then cut and prune later. Is one better than the other? Or as the old adage dictates: Do what works [for me]?

[HConn]

Maestro, I think you should do a fill-in rewrite before you send to your beta-readers. :)

[triceretops]

Maestro--I write thin myself and I'm at 93,000 right now. I skimp on deep background characterization and environmental description, so I know I'm going back in there to puff up. 60--70 percent is action and dialogue.

Tri

[SeanDSchaffer]

Maestro--I write thin myself and I'm at 93,000 right now. I skimp on deep background characterization and environmental description, so I know I'm going back in there to puff up. 60--70 percent is action and dialogue.

Tri


Well, I'll be a son-of-a-gun! I thought for sure I was the only writer in the world who 'writes thin.' I'm glad to know that's not true.

A question on this, if I could. How do I get myself to write more stuff into my works without overdoing it and/or making the book less enjoyable a read?


(93,000 words? Huh. I thought my WC was an epic at 91,000. Boy, do I have a lot to learn!)

:idea:

[edfrzr]

Maestro, I've seen and read enough of what you post to know that you of all people should understand that you will probably do BOTH. You will add here and remove there. I believe I've read somewhere that UJ says to write it until it ends.

You are very talented. I would not have taken you for a second guesser. Of course, having a writing group helps with the critiques.

[maestrowork]

Maestro, I've seen and read enough of what you post to know that you of all people should understand that you will probably do BOTH. You will add here and remove there. I believe I've read somewhere that UJ says to write it until it ends.

You're right, I do both. And that's fine. What I was concerned, though, is the things I truly do not elaborate enough, or think I do but in fact don't. Even beta readers can be misleading (some people get it and think less is more, but some people need more information/explanation and think I "hold back" too much) so sometimes I don't know if I should keep certain things "thin" or try to expand on them...

It's late (or early, depending on your viewpoint) and I am not thinking straight...

[aadams73]

Well, I'll be a son-of-a-gun! I thought for sure I was the only writer in the world who 'writes thin.' I'm glad to know that's not true.

:idea:

I 'write thin' too. I'm just not an excessively word person when I write or speak. My complete manuscript came in at 90,000 words.

[loquax]

Are the readers likely to skim it?

I wouldn't have thought so. My favourite books are the Gormenghast trilogy by Peake, and I think he writes at his best when he writes about nothing imparticular - when he slips into witty, poetical musings that are enjoyable to read, if nothing else.

And talking of word-counts, should anyone worry about it? At the moment I'm at 50,000 and just over a third of the way through... is it healthy to aspire to a set word-count?

[triceretops]

The consensus is to stay within the general confines (word length) of a first novel 80,000--100,00 words. Now this is not a "golden rule" with all publishers, since genre has a lot to do with it. It is a standard observation set forth by many publishers for a ball park target length. But for cryin' out loud don't let that impede or direct your progress. Go for the ending and not the word count. I only have a problem because I'm an under-writer and my count is high with no end in sight yet. But that's what first-draft editing is for--this is where major changes happen.

Tri

[Liam Jackson]

I'm not one of the old pros, so take this with the proverbial grain of salt. I try to be aware of word count, but the number of words won't dictate how I tell the story unless I'm writing for a target with a specified limit. Otherwise, I'll just write the story and worry about the length, later. Things like word count can be the source of additonal worry and procrastination, and eventually, interfere with the storytelling.

[Roger J Carlson]

Maestro, I've seen and read enough of what you post to know that you of all people should understand that you will probably do BOTH. You will add here and remove there. I believe I've read somewhere that UJ says to write it until it ends.

You are very talented. I would not have taken you for a second guesser. Of course, having a writing group helps with the critiques.I do both too. Since I write SF and fantasy, I tend to overwrite explanations of how the world (technology or magic) works. But I underwrite things like description of characters and settings. My beta readers are saints for putting up with my faults, but I listen when they tell me that things are slow here or they don't "see" the setting there.

Up-thread aways, I mentioned my system of writing: Storyboard, Rough, and Draft versions of my story. Storyboard is an outline in present tense. Rough is past tense where I add action and dialog. And Draft is where I add description. In this last stage, I deliberately try to flush out the description that I see so clearly in my head.

I've tried, but I can't find the overwritten sections myself. I'm too close to it and every word is a pearl of great price. I just have to rely on my beta readers.

[Christine N.]

Ray, I feel your pain. The first rewrite of the current WIP (the one that has The End already), I came across a place where a whole scene was missing. I added it... it wound up being ten extra pages.

Now that I'm on the next rewrite, I've deleted a bunch of stuff, mostly -ly adverbs and the ever popular -ing's and As's, but I've added too... especially where I've come across things that sounded so concise the last read through, but now sound like telling. So out they go, and dialouge or a scene go in. Makes it read better, but expands the word count. <shrug> Do you want a short book or a good book? LOL

You da man.

[azbikergirl]

As I comb through my novel trying to find excess adverbs and overuse of -ing or as, I can't help but think of one highly successful novelist, Robin Hobb, whose first novel, Assassin's Apprentice, is filled with said bookisms, adverbs, was/were ---ing, Telling, etc. It's just another example of excellent story-telling vastly overshadowing writing "errors." I don't think I could find a single 'said' that wasn't modified with an adverb, and while it annoys me when I read as a writer, I completely forget about it when I just sit back and enjoy the story. I must conclude that's not the lack of writing sins that make it a good book, and newbies can get published in spite of them. (of course, she's no newbie anymore, but she was when she wrote it)

[James D. Macdonald]

Story is a force of nature. It trumps everything.

[Aconite]

(of course, she's no newbie anymore, but she was when she wrote it)

"Robin Hobb" is a pseudonym for "Megan Lindholm" (which is actually a pseudonym as well). Assassin's Apprentice was not her first book, or even close.

[azbikergirl]

Ohhhhhh. No wonder. Thanks for the clarification.

U.J.: "Story trumps everything," but I've been unable to pinpoint what makes Assassin's Apprentice so good. For a long time, I thought conflict was at the heart of a good story, but the conflict throughout A.A. is so subtle, one barely notices it. Am I missing something?

[Sailor Kenshin]

I tend to "underwrite" as opposed to "overwrite." Often I find myself having to go back and insert/expand/explain things that are perfectly clear in my head but have somehow failed to transpire on the page. Most often, my readers will tell me "I am holding back" or "something is not clear to me" or "this is a little too short -- you skimmed over this."



Woot! Me, too, Maestro---let's form a club!

[willietheshakes]

Woot! Me, too, Maestro---let's form a club!

Yup, me too.

[maestrowork]

That didn't help...

[Lenora Rose]

Ohhhhhh. No wonder. Thanks for the clarification.

U.J.: "Story trumps everything," but I've been unable to pinpoint what makes Assassin's Apprentice so good. For a long time, I thought conflict was at the heart of a good story, but the conflict throughout A.A. is so subtle, one barely notices it. Am I missing something?

Conflict and tension are funny words, because people mistake them for things like head to head arguments, or watching the time bomb tick away while the Protagonist is totally oblivious. There are smaller conflicts and tensions; doing something you know is forbidden creates tension and causes conflict even when nobdy else knows about it yet, finding friends and making family include all kinds of little conflicts.

I haven't read Assassin's Apprentice, but I've read a fair number of other Robin Hobb/Megan Lindholm books (Including the trilogy that's technically a sequel to the Farseer trilogy), and I've noticed that no matter how Big and potentially violent / earth-shaking the main plot and the story blurb appears to be (royal coups, revenge stories, dragons and countries at war...), the focus is always on the small, family and friends level. The key points in the book never involve the battles; they involve the turning points in relationships. Which are fraught with tensions and conflicts, just not with massive battling dragons.

[Fillanzea]

SF writer Elizabeth Bear says, it's not the number of things you avoid doing poorly; it's the number of things that you do astoundingly well. There's lots of "meh" and "not bad, but what's the point?" in the slushpile--and I'd rather read something that blows me away in a few spots and annoys me in a few others.

What struck me about Assassin's Apprentice was the density of the worldbuilding and the richness of Fitz's character and social world. It trumps a few unnecessary adverbs.

[Liam Jackson]

RE: Assassin's Apprentice

I liked the protag and that is the only thing that keeps me turning pages in most stories. A serious anti-hero if ever there was such a critter. Flawed in most every way imaginable, yet you can't help pull for the kid.

[jules]

I can't fault the way Assassin's Apprentice is written, to be honest with you. It's a first person narrative, so the rules that apply are slightly different, and it really does immerse you very deeply in the protagonist's viewpoint.

The conflict builds with Fitz's understanding of the world he lives in; yes, it starts off small, but even at the beginning he's stuck there in a world where he doesn't belong, just trying to get along. What really drives the book is the connection you make to him; it is very easy to sympathise with him.

[aruna]

Well, I can't exactly copy some scenes here to analyze, but in most of the scenes written by Marry Higgins Clark, Richard Paul Evans, Nicholas Sparks, to name a few, where they write in third person, they seem to head hop all over the place, almost every paragraph is in a different POV from the previous one. Maybe they call it omnisciant, but to me, that's jarring and confusing too.

Hello Uncle Jim!

I just discovered this thread and find it most helpful and inspiring - thank you for taking the time to write it! i am stil very near the beginningand wil work my way through to the end.

I am at the moment at the part where you discuss POV and I just checked one of my favorite books, A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth, a very well respected book indeed. And right on page one, I find the POV hopping from one person to the other (between mother and daughter) almost from one sentence to the next: Here are some extracts - remember, this is all from page one, of a 1500 tome!

"Lata avoided the maternal imperative by looking around……. This annoyed her mother further.

….Her (Mrs Mehra's) nose began to redden at the thought of her husband, who would, she felt certain, be partaking of their present joy from somewhere benevolently above.

“Now, now Ma….” Said Lata, putting her arm gently but not very concernedly around he mothers shoulder..

“Ma!” said Lata, a little exasperated at the emotional capital her mother insisted on making out of every possible circumstance.

……Several guests were indeed doing namaste to Mrs Rupa Mehra and smiling at her; the cream of Bharmapurra society, she was pleased to note.

Lata reflected that of her four brothers and sisters, the only one who hadn’t complained….Sarita herself."


Ihadn't noticed this when I first read thenovel, which I enjoyed immensely; I wonder if "knowing" an dwatching out for this kind of things detracts from our enjoyment? I wonder if reading with a critical eye spoils the engagement with the story? I wonder if Vikram Seth was aware of this POV hopping when he wrote it, if it was deliberate, or if he just wrpte naturally, unconsciously?
I am one who writes by the seat of my pants, as you say; instinctively, without analusing in advance, and I only really become aware of aspects such as theme, premiss, POV when going over my work with said critical eye.

Ah well. Just wanted to show my appreciation. Hope this thread goes on for a long time after I finally reach the end!

[brinkett]

I am at the moment at the part where you discuss POV and I just checked one of my favorite books, A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth, a very well respected book indeed. And right on page one, I find the POV hopping from one person to the other (between mother and daughter) almost from one sentence to the next:
I haven't read the book, but if it's written in omniscient, then POV hopping from one sentence to the next wouldn't be unexpected. It will only be jarring and confusing if the author doesn't know what they're doing.

[Christine N.]

When was that book written? Head hopping was quite common some years ago. Read Lonesome Dove, that book head hops too.

Today it's not as an accepted a practice. Styles change, readers change. A book written fifty years ago, classic works of literature, today wouldn't make it off the slush pile.

Shrug.

[maestrowork]

Does it work? Omniscient is a perfectly fine POV -- it's just more difficult to do right.

Adverbs, however... if they're overused, it will significantly diminish my enjoyment, no matter how good the story is.

[aruna]

When was that book written? Head hopping was quite common some years ago. Read Lonesome Dove, that book head hops too.

Today it's not as an accepted a practice. Styles change, readers change. A book written fifty years ago, classic works of literature, today wouldn't make it off the slush pile.

Shrug.

It was first published in 1993, and so is quite recent. I get the feeling it wasn't done consciously, ie deliberately; but the writer is such a great storyteller it works all the same; it certainly doesn't seem at all jarring when one reads. I only noticed because I was looking to see what POV he uses. Just shows that a skilled author can get away with anything.

[Nangleator]

Head hopping was quite common some years ago... Today it's not as an accepted a practice. Styles change, readers change. A book written fifty years ago, classic works of literature, today wouldn't make it off the slush pile.
That's what it is. A style. I felt quite insulted when my beta readers started underlining "POV problems." I didn't feel it was a problem at all, but it is currently out of fashion.

As I've been re-reading my favorites lately, I've come to the conclusion that successful books written only a few decades ago couldn't make it off a slush pile these days. There's just too much competition, and if you aren't perfectly in tune with current writing conventions, the editor won't read enough to get to know your characters, never mind the story.

[jlawrenceperry]

You know, all the readers I've given stuff to have told me the same things:

The way you describe things is amazing, it just opens up like a picture and I can see everything really well! Your action scenes are terrific; I feel like I'm actually there. I can feel the tension between your characters. You write dialogue really well!

The negative:

You need to hurry up and finish that dang book!

So that is what I am doing at present.

[jlawrenceperry]

There's just too much competition, and if you aren't perfectly in tune with current writing conventions, the editor won't read enough to get to know your characters, never mind the story.

This is why we must read. New stuff, old stuff, everything. If our storytelling echoes with the voices of great storytellers down through the ages, it resonates with readers.

Writing (or storytellying) is communication, and writers form a vast community where we all speak to one another. To be "in tune with current writing conventions" is merely to be engaged in the community, and in communication--simply put, to be reading.

Then again, conventions are different depending on what authors you are reading, too. If I read nothing but Terry Brooks and Raymond E. Feist, I'd be head hopping all over the place!

[MiltonPope]

Hello again, all!

I've spent the last couple of months starting this thread over from the beginning. I caught up to where I left off about a week ago, and now I'm caught all the way up. You won't have missed me -- I've only posted a few very minor messages over the 18 months or so that I've been here.

A couple of notes:

I see that sometimes someone completes the thread and mentions the old grammar wars. And then (yuk yuk!) the original participants get into it again, albeit briefly.

I still don't quite get it about the Celtic knotwork. I'll do some experimenting, and ask any questions I need to.

There have been a couple of publication announcements while I wasn't looking. Congratulations, folks! You give me even more hope.

--Milton

[Mr Underhill]

I am at the moment at the part where you discuss POV and I just checked one of my favorite books, A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth, a very well respected book indeed. And right on page one, I find the POV hopping from one person to the other (between mother and daughter) almost from one sentence to the next
With this small sample it is difficult to be sure, but I would hazard a guess that this is either omniscient POV or something unorthodox but interesting. To wit, looking at the following sentence you cited:……Several guests were indeed doing namaste to Mrs Rupa Mehra and smiling at her; the cream of Bharmapurra society, she was pleased to note.
It's possible that this is a sort of omniscient POV limited to the family, or just the girl and her mother. That would add some cultural aspects to the style, and possibly emphasize the closeness of mother and daughter - that is, each instinctively knows what the other one is thinking. But I'm obviously extrapolating wildly from a small sample.

Ihadn't noticed this when I first read thenovel, which I enjoyed immensely; I wonder if "knowing" an dwatching out for this kind of things detracts from our enjoyment?Since I've become serious about the craft, I have found that I notice certain things more, and sometimes a book that I once could have cruised through with innocent enjoyment is tough for me to read because I see what the author is doing and cry out, "Hack!" But for well-written work this same process now enhances my enjoyment.

And far from narrowing the field of books I have to enjoy, I find that it has expanded it. For instance, in my youth I tended to stick to Science Fiction and Fantasy, and found mainstream fiction to be "boring" because it deals only with the mundane world. Now that I can appreciate what a good author is doing more fully, and how they are expanding our perception of the world and creatively shining light on those old Deep And Universal Truths, I am quite happy with a well-written work of any stripe.

[Ddama]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I missed that the first time. The book is called "The Historian"? IMO, that thing's going to sit on the shelves longer than organic vegetables in a candy store.

There was another book out right after Brown's that sort of tackled the same arena called The Codex, by Lev Grossman. Very nice book, but no where near the numbers of Brown's (Lord, what is?) "Codex" is just not as enticing as a title with both "Da Vinci" and "Code" in it, IMO. Of course, the book itself, content, slant, etc. is what keeps things going, but you need to get that thing off the shelf for people to read it and start the word of mouth. The title "The Historian" starts people's mouths moving, all right, in a yawn.

Just my .02 cents.

The lack of success for "Codex" had nothing to do with the title and everything to do with the fact that it wasn't very good. While "Code" wasn't great literature, Dan Brown knows how to tell a fast-paced story and keep you turning the pages. "Code" also included religious controversy, always a great pot-stirrer. "Codex" was just flat out boring and pretentious, very pretentious, with a narrator who sleeps for days, long useless digressions, and an anticlimactic ending.

The greatest piece of advice I got out of this thread, for which I will thank Uncle Jim for life, is that every word in a book should advance the plot, develop a character, or show theme, and that the best words do all three. "Codex" had many, many words that did none of those.

Grossman also failed to do his research. The main character is allegedly an investment banker, but the author clearly has no idea what an investment banker does or what that work environment is like.

[paritoshuttam]

With this small sample it is difficult to be sure, but I would hazard a guess that this is either omniscient POV or something unorthodox but interesting. To wit, looking at the following sentence you cited:
It's possible that this is a sort of omniscient POV limited to the family, or just the girl and her mother. That would add some cultural aspects to the style, and possibly emphasize the closeness of mother and daughter - that is, each instinctively knows what the other one is thinking. But I'm obviously extrapolating wildly from a small sample.


The book has an epic scope, dealing with many families, characters, cultural and historical situations. There are numerous subplots, but it is Lata's character (A Suitable Boy referring to her choice of the man she marries ultimately) that is the main thread running through the story. Since the canvas is so wide, I think POV hopping is acceptable, though I would rather have the POV hopping from chapter to chapter, or scene by scene instead of paragraph to paragraph.

Perhaps the author gives more weightage to his prose, than to consistency of POV. Try his The Golden Gate--the whole novel is in sonnet form, including the table of contents--a successful experiment in style.

thanks,
Paritosh.

[aruna]

Since the canvas is so wide, I think POV hopping is acceptable, though I would rather have the POV hopping from chapter to chapter, or scene by scene instead of paragraph to paragraph.

Perhaps the author gives more weightage to his prose, than to consistency of POV. Try his The Golden Gate--the whole novel is in sonnet form, including the table of contents--a successful experiment in style.

thanks,
Paritosh.

Just glancing at random through the book, I found one sentence where POV changes WITHIN the sentence:

"Dr Durrani did not even notice that Sunil was imitating his manner of speech; Sunil himself was still in an imitative mode after his kathak performance, and only noticed it himself after he had done it."

I am now inspired to re-read the entire book, all 1500 pages, just to see what this author is doing, this time with an eye for the language stuff.

[reph]

"Dr Durrani did not even notice that Sunil was imitating his manner of speech; Sunil himself was still in an imitative mode after his kathak performance, and only noticed it himself after he had done it."
I always have trouble as a reader when a writer says a character didn't notice something or was unaware of something. What POV is that? The character's? Not exactly. More like an invisible narrator peeking over the character's shoulder.

[reph]

I see that sometimes someone completes the thread and mentions the old grammar wars. And then (yuk yuk!) the original participants get into it again, albeit briefly.
That happened because the grammar-war mentioner did his mentioning in such a partisan way, as if nothing rational could possibly be said for one of the sides, that the proponent of that side felt compelled to defend my – uh, her position all over again, albeit briefly.

[aruna]

I always have trouble as a reader when a writer says a character didn't notice something or was unaware of something. What POV is that? The character's? Not exactly. More like an invisible narrator peeking over the character's shoulder.

Hmmmmm. Quite right. That escaped me.

[maestrowork]

It seems that in omniscient, the narrator (aka god) is also a POV. Thus, something like "Joe didn't notice the car coming behind him" would be valid. Personally, I find omniscient very distracting.

[Christine N.]

Right now I'm reading our own Diana Hignutt's "Empress of Clouds." It is written from different points of view. I'm not sure how to describe it except third person omniscient. She doesn't head hop, not really, and it is VERY WELL done. So well done that I don't even notice when the POV changes.

Take a peek, it really is one of the smoothest written books I've read in a while. I can only hope to write so well.

[jlawrenceperry]

http://www.geocities.com/jlawrenceperry/meterupdate.html







joy.

[loquax]

I think that in a way, most 3rd person pieces must have some hints of omniscience to even work at all. For instance, when you use a simile, its the narrator making the connection, not the protagonist. Otherwise you would write something along the lines of "he thought that it looked like..." rather than "it looked like". In this way I think that the barriers between POVs are somewhat blurred, and that it's perfectly acceptable to switch between them, as long as it doen't hinder the progress of the reader.

[aruna]

Thanks to everyone for their comments. I am now on page 27 of this thread and have lived through some of your little skirmishes - I have been practicing muchrestrain because so often I wanted to cooemnt but I realise that what happened on page 27 is ancient history to you all! ANyway, I thought I'd introcduce myself in order to partciiapte a little more here - I am reading the middle and end simultaneously now, this threda ia gem, whether you;re a beginner or a so-called "experienced" writer.

The latter, I am; I've had three novels published with one of the big publishers, but for reasons too complicated to get into here I decided to start all over again - new publisher, and new agent - for my fourth novel. At first it was scary but it has done wonders for my writing.

The problem with having a publisher is that you get lazy and cosy. I had a two- book contract for my second and third books and I was told by my agent "it really doesn't matter what you write at this stage",meaning, I got the contract already, what does it matter. And I know the two second books weren't as good as my first.

Now, I am revising, revising, revising. I am lerning all the time, improving my writing, getting it right. I love it - and I know that this is my best book yet!
Anyway, a million thanks to Uncle Jim for all his help, and to everyone.

Great thread, great forum!

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

For instance, when you use a simile, its the narrator making the connection, not the protagonist. Otherwise you would write something along the lines of "he thought that it looked like..." rather than "it looked like".I typically assume that a simile in a third-person limited narration is indicative of the thought processes of that character, actually. I assume a "he thought" even when one isn't written.

[aruna]

Jim (and everyone else),

Here is why I am confused about writing something without knowing the ending--because I can't see how it is possible.

From what I understand about dramatic structure, a story (regardless of length) is built as a series of conflicts with rising tension that explode in a climax. All of the characters and forces that you set in motion during the previous scenes are supposed to be there for this great collision.

So if you don't know how that is going to end, how can you start writing? How can you know what foreshadowing to employ (or not), or who the important characters are (or not), or between which two character you want to build tension, or in what direction the story is going?

I just got spanked like a naughty puppy for not doing this; an editor of Interzone wrote to me:

"...the story romps along, all concrete illustration of points being made, until the final two paragraphs where everything suddenly becomes lifeless. The last line is the flattest thing in the story."

My experience of not having a coherent ending was the writer's equivalent of getting paddled and having my nose rubbed in it.

But if you don't know where the story is going as you write it, how can you possibly pull it together well in the end? Maybe with raw talent you can wing-and-prayer it, but for me this seems (re: above example) to be a non-starter.

Comments? Verbal abuse? RPG's (Ridicule-Propelled Gripes)?

Thanks,

Jeff
www.jeffspock.com

OK, Im going to do it - reply to a post that came somewhere in the 20's of this thread; because, reading on for a few pages, I found no-one had offered a viable alternative to what jeffspock says above. Jeffspock was writing in reply to two people who said something like this:

"I'm with you, HConn. I'm worried that Mr. MacD and most of the writers I know already have the end in mind when the start. I never do."

I'm replying to this because I'm just like this writer. I never know the ending when I start, and often this is depicted as a great problem. It isn't; and becuase there are few of us around who have found the solution, I'm going to tell you how I do it.

First of all (this is to the two writers who asked, and anyone else who writes this way): you must have absolute trust in your story and its inherent intelligence. You also know that your conscious mind cannot, as yet, access your story; but that it is there, somewhere inside you, whole and perfect. All you can do is live with your characters, believe in them and in their story, follow where they take you. From one day to the next I never know what is going to happen. I never even know who they are before I begin writing. I just allow them to come. Things take shape; under my fingers, the story evolves. I could never have planned it; I don't have a planning kind of mind. If I had to plan it I would never start. I just trust that it will all end in just the right way.

My present novel turned out to be a big book, just like the first. Many characters, many subplots, like a huge network. I didn't know where it was going,; I just knew that it WAS going somewhere specific, and that it was taking me along. I am as eager to find out as a reader wouild be. In the middle, I do get the jitters. How on earth am I going to bring this al together in one guigantic finale, that is both surprising and inevitable, as Uncle Jim says? (I always write down such memorable quotes.) By following the characters to their inevitable climax. And by being surprised myself,

The day before I wrote my climax (in this book) I had no idea what it would be. I just knew it had to involve certain characters, and it had to have a certain resolution; but I had no idea at all HOW this would come about. But somehow it happened right before my eyes, and it was truly both surprising and inevitable; the most perfect ending, immensely satisfying.

People who write this way are in the minority and usually they get silenced by those who don't - the planners. Please don't; we do work differently, and it does work for us; but it needs a lot of faith and as we all know faith is easily shaken by the voice of reason. If I had listened to the voice of reason - ie "plan your books and know the ending before you start" - I would never have started, much less found a publisher.

I found my faith through a wonderful book, "Becoming a Writer" by Dorothea Brande. To all those who write on a wing and a prayer, I say READ THIS BOOK. It is for you,. It will make you laugh and cry and get down on your knees to thank Saraswati, the goddess of wisdom and writers!

May I add that all the above applies only to the first draft. The second (and all other drafts) is absolute reason, critique, planning, rearranging. NEVER hand in a novel in the first euphoria of THE END. Sometimes you only find its true shape half a year later.

[loquax]

I typically assume that a simile in a third-person limited narration is indicative of the thought processes of that character, actually. I assume a "he thought" even when one isn't written.

Would this not impose certain characteristics when you perhaps might not want them to? For example, a hardened soldier scouting through a romantic landscape may very well be unable to have such creative ideas flowing through his head. I suppose I would rather point out his indifference to the beauty than not describe the beauty at all.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Would this not impose certain characteristics when you perhaps might not want them to? For example, a hardened soldier scouting through a romantic landscape may very well be unable to have such creative ideas flowing through his head. I suppose I would rather point out his indifference to the beauty than not describe the beauty at all.If I were writing from the point of view of the jaded, hardened soldier, but wanted to get across how beautiful the landscape was, I see my choices as being a) cleverly worded narration from the soldier's point of view in which he voices his indifference in such a way that the reader infers what he's ignoring (making him into a bit of an unreliable narrator), or b) dialogue with a fellow soldier who is more romantically inclined.

Maybe the soldier thinks how the babbling of the brook will hide the sounds of his movements, making it easy to pick off any romantic [ethnic slur for citizen of enemy country] wandering by in a stupid at-one-with-nature daze, if it weren't for that damn butterfly fluttering around his gun site and messing up his shot.

It's a good writing exercise. Using tight 3rd-person POV, describe a scene or event such that the reader will notice something that the POV character doesn't. No omniscient allowed. Set timers for ten minutes, and..... go!

[jules]

Would this not impose certain characteristics when you perhaps might not want them to? For example, a hardened soldier scouting through a romantic landscape may very well be unable to have such creative ideas flowing through his head. I suppose I would rather point out his indifference to the beauty than not describe the beauty at all.

It all depends on the POV style you're using. In tight, limited 3rd, you wouldn't describe anything that your POV character wouldn't notice. But that doesn't mean you have to miss out on such things:

Drake moved cautiously along the road, watching constantly for signs of life. The long grass on either side would be a good place for an enemy to hide, waiting to ambush him, and the sound of the flowing river would help mask any noises he might make.

The sound of a bird launching from a tree made him pause, re-assess the situation. Maybe it would be better if he didn't follow the road. He would be less visible in the grass, although his tracks would be easier for someone to follow later.

But he didn't want to be any closer to the side of the valley. Any number of people could be hiding in the jagged, rocky passes, and it would be best if he was out of range of their arrows.

The clues are there, and a reader can look between the lines and see this beautiful landscape. And they can see that the POV character is too preoccupied to notice it, too, without being told it. Of course, it would be simpler if you dipped into an omniscient style briefly, and described the landscape and said that your character didn't notice it, but I think the way I've just done it there brings you closer.

[loquax]

All good points, and although I understand how tight 3rd person makes the scene more intimate, I still think that it overly constricts the author's freedom. I think there is such a thing as a 3rd person/semi-omniscient, which enables the narrator to slip briefly out of the character's mind-set if needs be. Take Alice in Wonderland, for instance. The whole story is written from Alice's point of view, yet there is still a sense of omniscience coming from the narrator. This seems to be the style adopted by most authors - a loose 3rd preson POV.

That was some nice writing there Jules, by the way. The thing that scared me was that my main character is called Drake (though he's not a soldier).

[pianoman5]

I think there is such a thing as a 3rd person/semi-omniscient, which enables the narrator to slip briefly out of the character's mind-set if needs be.

I like the idea of your new POV, loquax, because I sometimes perceive the need for it in preference to other contrivances.

Being all too conscious of my duty to keep my nose out of my characters' affairs, I occasionally enlist the services of a spy to do some information gathering for me. He's an invisible leprechaun-like personage (named Sean) who sits on my POV characters' right shoulders and reports back to me the stuff that they miss on their travels because they're too preoccupied with what's happening to them at the time, or are unromantic, or congenitally unobservant, or whatever.

My characters do accept responsibility for letting the reader know what they're like and developing the story and the plot; but they largely leave the world/settings/descriptions up to me. So whenever there's something I think readers should know about but my characters fail them, I consult Sean's notes and slip appropriate snippets into the narrative. If anyone accuses me of omniscience--of playing God--I blame Sean.

[reph]

If anyone accuses me of omniscience--of playing God--I blame Sean.
Ah. That accounts for the classic advice to writers, "Sean, don't tell."

[aruna]

I just realised, in rereading my post above, that I invented a new word:
squirmish. A cross between squirm and skirmish! Must use it sometime....

[gp101]

Considering Adobe .pdf files are a astandard way to transmit documents, I have .pdf copies of my novel (also just the first 25 pages worth, if that's what is requested) should someone request it by e-mail. But I just noticed that my 455 page novel (courier new 12 pt) shrinks to 439 pages as a .pdf. All the chapter headers are at the top of their respective pages and nothing was clipped from the ending. What gives?

Has anyone else encountered this? What's the fix?

[loquax]

aruna - I'm sure I've used the word squirmish before. Or said it, at least. Making up new words is fun anyway. The word "premonitional" doesn't exist, but I used it because I needed it.

"Illuminated before the blackboard, his spindly form stood out like a premonitional bolt of lightning"

gp101 - I don't use pdf. but it may be something to do with the margin width. A slightly larger margin can add twenty or so words per page, and cut a large book down quite considerably. Is that it?

[jules]

Are you using MS Word? With word, the precise number of characters you get per line depends as much on what printer driver you have selected as it does what font / paper size and margins you have set up. As far as I know, there's no easy way of avoiding this kind of thing, other than always using your PDF writer as your printer driver from word, and then printing the resulting PDF instead of printing directly...

[Khilari]

With regard to 3rd person point of view, what if your character isn't good with words? You might be reporting what they saw and thought, but in terms they wouldn't be able to put it in. Would that still count as tight 3rd person or would it be semi-omniscient?

[loquax]

That's a tough one, Khilari. But I think it would still count as tight 3rd person - otherwise all tight 1st person would also have to reflect the ability of the character (although The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark Haddon achieves this remarkably well. I would regard that as true 1st person)

Talking of 1st person, would you regard a stream of conciousness as an even lower POV (i.e., 0th person) ?

[Khilari]

Thanks for the reply, Loquax. I think stream of consciousness would still be 1st person, after all someone must be telling it even if they are not organising it into a narrative
I agree that 'The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time' was remarkable. I have Asperger's Syndrome myself and he was extremely accurate in his portayal of it (although I'm better at interacting with people than his narrator). I just hope I can write about 'normal' people as well as he writes about an autistic one.

[brinkett]

With regard to 3rd person point of view, what if your character isn't good with words? You might be reporting what they saw and thought, but in terms they wouldn't be able to put it in. Would that still count as tight 3rd person or would it be semi-omniscient?
You should try to maintain the voice of the POV character. If you step outside of that, then it's the omniscient narrator.

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

People usually think how they speak, a good book for that is "Eaters of the Dead", where the main character is an arab stuck with a bunch of Norsemen. It shows just how one person's views can be brought into dialog with another culture. I diont think that people will try to think up some elaborate view in thier minds, and then botch up thier words trying to explain it.

[black winged fighter]

Eaters of the Dead sounds like The Thirteenth Warrior (movie) In there, they just have about five minutes showing how the Arab learns the language of his new comrades over many weeks.
This would be difficult to get across in a book, but maybe there's a way? But he does struggle getting his ideas across at first. Again, difficult to show in a book...Unless you use different fonts?
And now I'm just rambling...

[loquax]

To be true 1st person wouldn't the book have to be written in Arabic?

[J. Y. Moore]

People usually think how they speak, a good book for that is "Eaters of the Dead", where the main character is an arab stuck with a bunch of Norsemen. It shows just how one person's views can be brought into dialog with another culture. I diont think that people will try to think up some elaborate view in thier minds, and then botch up thier words trying to explain it.

Not always true. Take the "Clan of the Cavebear" series by Jean M. Auel. The Clan characters as well as the protagonist all "speak" using sign language. However, Auel gives them each unique 1st person voices. The Clan members "speak" in halting, incomplete verbage while the heroine "speaks" in complete, full sentences. All this is done sub-vocally while they are all actually using the same hand signals ("how they speak").

You might also have a case in which someone has had a stroke and cannot verbalize even though their thought processes are intact. My point is, you have to make the character understood as an individual, consistently.

Well, enough of that rant!

J. Y. (Jean) Moore

[black winged fighter]

To be true 1st person wouldn't the book have to be written in Arabic?

*grins* Or a clever form of italics....?

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

Eaters of the Dead sounds like The Thirteenth Warrior (movie) In there, they just have about five minutes showing how the Arab learns the language of his new comrades over many weeks.
This would be difficult to get across in a book

This never actually happens in the text of the book, Herger is Fadlan's translator. It was a clever scene in the film however. I do agree that it may not be the best example of what it is like to think one thing and speak another, i see now the error in using this script as an example.

However, having said that, we can look to Crichton in this example as showing us a fundamental idea; that two cultures, seemingly different in every way, have much more in common that one would think. That comes out in the dialog that Herger translates for Fadlan, thats what i meant.
Sorry for the confusion.

[black winged fighter]

Actually, this bout of confusion has given me an idea, so no worries...

[James D. Macdonald]

As I've been re-reading my favorites lately, I've come to the conclusion that successful books written only a few decades ago couldn't make it off a slush pile these days.

You keep hearing that sort of thing, but I'm not certain that I believe it.

More titles were published last year in America than were published in the first ten years of twentieth century -- in the world.

Styles go in and out of fashions -- but stories, the baseline, are eternal.

[Diana Hignutt]

Right now I'm reading our own Diana Hignutt's "Empress of Clouds." It is written from different points of view. I'm not sure how to describe it except third person omniscient. She doesn't head hop, not really, and it is VERY WELL done. So well done that I don't even notice when the POV changes.

Take a peek, it really is one of the smoothest written books I've read in a while. I can only hope to write so well.

My humble thanks, Christine. I never change POV in a chapter. Otherwise, it gets too chaotic. I think I use about six different POV's in the book in total, but mostly stick to the three main characters (Tolian, Brythia, and Kiliordes).

I also, offer my thanks to Uncle Jim and all of the posters in this thread. This is my first post here, but I have learned a great deal from my lurking.

diana

[Christine N.]

Yes, UJ, but the first ten years of the twentieth century, all the manuscripts were handwritten and manually typset. A lot of manual labor for one book. So of course there weren't as many printed. LOL

[loquax]

I don't think I would have the strength to write a book by hand. Computers make things so easy; I write everything on a Psion 5mx palmtop, and it's fantastic. The thing fits in your pocket, has a full keyboard, and can run for 24hrs on two AA batteries. I highly recommend it for writing on the move.

But then again, computers have no doubt increased the size of the slush-pile exponentially. So are they good or bad?