Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[Mr Underhill]

...my wife... has found a few publishers who accept unsolicited submissions but request a marketing proposal. Her question is, "How do you write a marketing proposal for a novel?"

My addendum to her question is, "Should a writer submit to a publisher that wants an untrained person creating their marketing plan? Don't they have people who do that?"Yes Mr Dyess, they will if they are a real publisher (Uncle Jim will probably go off on POD's and the like shortly). If they are a small publisher, however, they may only have one publicist covering the 10 or 20 titles they release each year. So the professional marketing people may not get to it until the project is on their horizon. Certainly a publisher will not have publicists working up a marketing plan for every proposal that comes across the transom.

What they are looking for in the proposal is an indication that the prospective author has thought all this through. For nonfiction this is crucial. In many cases the author will be directed to write the material to the market instead of the other way around. In fiction or literary nonfiction that obviously doesn't quite work, but they will still want to know that the author is cognizant of what other books are out there and what sells.

Once the editors and/or agents who screen proposals pick one they find interesting, they will next have to pitch it to the higher ups. At this point it is being evaluated as a business proposition as much as anything else. The acquisitions people will add some of their research and market knowledge, and are trying to convince the decision-makers that the project is going to sell. The more the author does to help this process, the more likely the proposal is to get pitched to the publisher.

For how to write the proposal, including a marketing plan, try your local library. There are entire books on this subject.

[Jason M. Dyess]

Now I feel like a dolt. My wife has just informed me that it wasn't publishers that requested a marketing proposal, it was some agents that she had found. She can't remember how many of them did that, but she did know that at least one of them specified they wanted a marketing proposal for fiction.

Above questions still stand (thanks for your input, BTW, Mr. Underhill) with the exception of, "don't they have people who do that" (with appropriate replacement of 'publisher' with 'agent')

[Marcusthefish]

I would be slightly leery of an agent who requests a marketing proposal for a novel. I can imagine an agent asking for a description in dustjacket-copy style, and information about similar authors and books, but that is hardly a "marketing proposal." Novels aren't marketed the same way nonfiction is--they don't usually have a definable audience to aim publicity and promotion at, the way nonfiction books do. With novels it's ALL about getting the book into stores by convincing the big accounts--through your sales guys--that the company is behind the book.

By the way, I'm a book marketer by trade (scholarly/small press nonfiction).

MTF

[Roger J Carlson]

I would be slightly leery of an agent who requests a marketing proposal for a novel. I can imagine an agent asking for a description in dustjacket-copy style, and information about similar authors and books, but that is hardly a "marketing proposal." Novels aren't marketed the same way nonfiction is--they don't usually have a definable audience to aim publicity and promotion at, the way nonfiction books do. With novels it's ALL about getting the book into stores by convincing the big accounts--through your sales guys--that the company is behind the book.

By the way, I'm a book marketer by trade (scholarly/small press nonfiction).

MTFI hear a lot of conflicting advice. In his book: Book Report, Mark Shaw says that you when you create a query or submission letter, you should flatter the agent, submit a marketing plan, list other published works, etc. But in Writing the Breakout Novel, Donald Maase says that all he wants to hear about is the story. Other authors, agents, publishers, etc. offer differing advice about what the perfect query or cover letter is. Much of this advice is mutually exclusive.

Still, I'm not really sure what good a marketing plan is to an agent. While an agent may be interested in whether or not you want to be actively involved in the marketing, his or her job is to sell the book to a publisher, not market it.

I guess "be leery" is good advice. If it is followed up by a request to have the book professionally edited -- run!

[maestrowork]

I think it's a good idea to talk to your agent about marketing ideas -- but you've got to have an agent first. In your initial query/solicitation, you should focus on the story. It's good to let the agent know you have marketing ideas and skills, but it's the story you're selling.

If the agent asks for a marketing proposal, then you should consider it (given that the agent is legit).

[James D. Macdonald]

FWIW, I have not a friggin' clue what a "marketing plan" for a novel might look like.

Maybe "Roses are red/ Violet's are blue/ I'll sign people's bookplates/ I hope that'll do."

[Marcusthefish]

[QUOTE=Roger J Carlson]I hear a lot of conflicting advice. In his book: Book Report, Mark Shaw says that you when you create a query or submission letter, you should flatter the agent, submit a marketing plan, list other published works, etc. QUOTE]

I haven't read Shaw's book, but I bet he's referring to nonfiction submissions. For fiction, there's virtually nothing an author can do marketing-wise that will make a difference, unless he or she is best buds with Oprah's producer or the book review editor of Parade magazine, or is the leader of a massive cult whose members will flood bookstores and libraries nationwide when the book is published.

MTF

[jlawrenceperry]

I think that what an Agent would be looking for, is how you as an author plan to help in promotion. Starting out, from what I hear, you need to be as proactive as you can, setting up your own book signing events, calling up bookstores, pitching to book reviewers, that sort of thing. I could be wrong, but maybe that's all they're looking for, is how you plan to do PR. So that they know you're not just some newbie who hasn't taken the time to read this stuff.

[reph]

Roses are red, violets magenta.
To market a novel is the agent's agenda.

[Roger J Carlson]

FWIW, I have not a friggin' clue what a "marketing plan" for a novel might look like.

Maybe "Roses are red/ Violet's are blue/ I'll sign people's bookplates/ I hope that'll do."But Jim, you already told us what your marketing plan is:

Write first book. Sell it.
Write second book. First book sells second book.
Write third book. First and second books sell third book.
Write forth book. Books 1 through 3 sell fourth book.
Fourth book sales justify reprint of books 1 through 3.
Continue till death.

[JAlpha]

In The 2005 Writer's Market, there is an article titled, Book Marketing 101,
by Sean Murphy. His novel, The Hope Valley Hubcap King won the Hemingway Award for a first novel.

The main theme of the article is . . . in this age of the overtly commercial enterprise of large conglomerate publishing houses, the responsibility of ensuring that the most thorough possible marketing takes place, increasingly falls upon the author.

I think we are only seeing the beginning of this self-marketing trend, and it will soon become common place for fiction writers to include their marketing plan in addition to their synopsis, whether submitting to an agent or directly to a publisher.

Writing is an art, and selling art always was and always will be a business.

[maestrowork]

I think some agents or publishers (especially smaller ones) just want to see if the writer knows this is a business, and that they must be proactive in promoting their books... some writers can be clueless, as in "Huh? I just write my book and you do the rest...") I don't think the agents are looking for a 30-page strategic plan on how to sell the book, but more like whether the author even knows what marketing/promotion is about...

I think. So far I've only seen one agent (legit) ask for "marketing ideas" during the query phase.

[Marcusthefish]

I think that what an Agent would be looking for, is how you as an author plan to help in promotion. Starting out, from what I hear, you need to be as proactive as you can, setting up your own book signing events, calling up bookstores, pitching to book reviewers, that sort of thing. I could be wrong, but maybe that's all they're looking for, is how you plan to do PR. So that they know you're not just some newbie who hasn't taken the time to read this stuff.

Your job is to write the book. It's your publisher's job to publish it--and that includes marketing, sales, and promotion. I would tread very lightly when "helping" your publisher do something that they have done hundreds or thousands of times. Offer to help, yes (especially smaller presses, who might actually need and appreciate it) but don't be surprised or get huffy if they don't accept it. Let them do their jobs. Authors who are too proactive run the risk of annoying the folks who are working on their behalf.

MTF (book marketer by trade)

[Mr Underhill]

. . . in this age of the overtly commercial enterprise of large conglomerate publishing houses, the responsibility of ensuring that the most thorough possible marketing takes place, increasingly falls upon the author.

I think we are only seeing the beginning of this self-marketing trend, and it will soon become common place for fiction writers to include their marketing plan in addition to their synopsis, whether submitting to an agent or directly to a publisher.

Writing is an art, and selling art always was and always will be a business.This is it exactly.

The fact that this is an agency asking for marketing information with the proposal indicates to me that they probably work with very business-minded publishers.

My experience is with nonfiction/small presses, like Marcus, but what I hear is that the large conglomerates have been eliminating their slush pile process. They find no value in paying editors to review unsolicited material, so this process now devolves upon the agents.

So, picture the approval process. The people from the agency will be going into a boardroom somewhere on a middle floor in midtown Manhattan. Dress code is artsy-corporate, a tall Starbucks cup at every seat. At the head of the table is the guy from the Pink Floyd song Have A Cigar. Your wife's agency is pitching several proposals for him, trying to convince him of their profitability. Other agencies are waiting outside with competing line-ups. Corporate acquisitions editors are there trying to shoot holes in all the proposals to see if they can take it.

So what the agency wants from you is ammunition for that meeting. They are going to add to it, sure, but they at least want some leads from the person who has so far thought the most about the project: the author. Things like who will be reading the book, what books might be similar, or at least have appealed to the same demographics, and what was their Amazon rank. These sorts of things. Books that are commercially oriented will do well in that process. If they are more artistically oriented, perhaps small presses might be a better way to go, where things aren't so crazy (just eccentric).

Take all that with a huge grain of salt. It's my understanding of the current reality at big publishers. But of course they are sprawling empires with many imprints, and surely there are pockets left here and there where they do things the old-fashioned way, trying to keep the corporate barbarians outside the gate. And there must be agents who can act as able translators, fluent in the milieu of the artist in the morning, and the commerce-crazed suits in the afternoon. At least I hope they exist.

[jlawrenceperry]

Your job is to write the book. It's your publisher's job to publish it--and that includes marketing, sales, and promotion. I would tread very lightly when "helping" your publisher do something that they have done hundreds or thousands of times. Offer to help, yes (especially smaller presses, who might actually need and appreciate it) but don't be surprised or get huffy if they don't accept it. Let them do their jobs.

Fine, but that doesn't jibe with what I've read from other published authors who write on the topic. From our own Jenna Glatzer to Holly Lilse. Nobody says, "don't worry, your publisher and agent will push your book." You have to hit the con circuit; you have to put yourself on your first tour. Publishers put the most marketing power behind the biggest-selling authors, and a first-timer hasn't sold anything, so the marketing power behind them is very little, unless the publisher has reason to believe very strongly in the book.

[Liam Jackson]

I only have limited experience with this issue. However, for what it's worth:

The only question my agent asked that was even remotely related to marketing was, "Where do you see this book fitting in?" (in terms of niche or genre) Then, my agent went into a rather extensive explanation of our professional roles. Regarding sales, it fell something like this:

"Your role is to write the books. My role is to sell the books to publishers for the best possible deal. The publisher's role is to find a way to put those books into the hands of the masses. Don't give them tips. When it comes to moving product in large quantity, listen to your publisher."

Oddly enough, he also said something very similar to a statement made by Jim D. That being, "Companies have spent millions of dollars determining which shade of blue triggers the buying urge, which shade of red triggers the hungary (That's Texan fer 'hungry') urge, etc. Let those folks worry about mass marketing. They'll let you know when they need you."

My publisher asked the same question early on, about niche/genre.
An editor also gave me this advice about marketing: Network with your peers, make yourself available for events that will promote you as a "person and an author." If and when we need help marketing the book on a grand scale, will yell for you. (This was said with a smile and a wink.)

At no time did anyone tell me not to market my book as the opportunity presented itself. Whet they did say was that writing and advertising are two different (albiet loosely related) disciplines. I would also think had I wrote a niche book on the "Configuration Management for Widget Production", my part in the marketing scheme would be far more important.

Just my two cents.

[Nangleator]

It seems a darn shame that a book must fit nicely onto one and only one shelf. I'd love to write a science fiction horror romance, or a comic historical mystery. I'm just afraid I'd be told, "We can't market this." Wouldn't such a book appeal to more people than peruse just one shelf?

I've got a techno thriller in my head that is set forty years in the future and involves a ghost from WW2. I'd write it funny, if I wrote it at all. I'd make sure it had elements of mystery, horror, action, psychological drama, and anything else I could think of.

Is there any point in trying, though?

I suppose it could be easily pigeonholed as science fiction. Those fans are tolerant of experimentation.

[maestrowork]

Well, you've got to put it on the shelf somewhere. Is it in the Cereal aisle, or the Crackers, or the Cookies, or Snack food? Must make up your mind.

[jlawrenceperry]

The only question my agent asked that was even remotely related to marketing was, "Where do you see this book fitting in?" (in terms of niche or genre) Then, my agent went into a rather extensive explanation of our professional roles. Regarding sales, it fell something like this:

"Your role is to write the books. My role is to sell the books to publishers for the best possible deal. The publisher's role is to find a way to put those books into the hands of the masses. Don't give them tips. When it comes to moving product in large quantity, listen to your publisher."

That goes along with what I originally thought, myself. I could have misinterpreted the things I have learned, too.

[Mr Underhill]

which shade of red triggers the hungary urge, etc.You know, I was kind of thinking of catching the next flight to Budapest...

[maestrowork]

I agree... let the publisher do their job. Just write more good books!

However, remember, you are the name under the title of the book, so even though the publisher bought the rights, it's still YOUR book and you still need to claim ownership of it. Meaning, you still must do your part to promote it because it is your work and your name in question. It's no time to be shy about it. Talk about it like you talk about your kids (unless, of course, you happen to hate your kids and wish they were never born....)

[Roger J Carlson]

Jim,

Last night as I drove home from work, Kenny Rogers singing The Gambler came on the radio. I haven't heard this song in years -- probably since before I started writing. .

On a warm summer’s evenin’ on a train bound for nowhere,
I met up with the gambler; we were both too tired to sleep.
So we took turns a starin’ out the window at the darkness
’til boredom overtook us, and he began to speak.

He said, son, I’ve made a life out of readin’ people’s faces,
And knowin’ what their cards were by the way they held their eyes.
So if you don’t mind my sayin’, I can see you’re out of aces.
For a taste of your whiskey I’ll give you some advice.

So I handed him my bottle and he drank down my last swallow.
Then he bummed a cigarette and asked me for a light.
And the night got deathly quiet, and his face lost all expression.
Said, if you’re gonna play the game, boy, ya gotta learn to play it right.

You got to know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you’re sittin’ at the table.
There’ll be time enough for countin’ when the dealin’s done.

Now ev’ry gambler knows that the secret to survivin’
Is knowin’ what to throw away and knowing what to keep.
’cause ev’ry hand’s a winner and ev’ry hand’s a loser,
And the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep.

So when he’d finished speakin’, he turned back towards the window,
Crushed out his cigarette and faded off to sleep.
And somewhere in the darkness the gambler, he broke even.
But in his final words I found an ace that I could keep.

You got to know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you’re sittin’ at the table.
There’ll be time enough for countin’ when the dealin’s done.What amazed me was how evocative it was. There are only 321 words in the song, but it tells a complete story. There is metaphor, foreshadowing, and the description is wonderful. It's so minimal yet I can see the two of them there. I'd probably write it something like this:

It was hot in the train car that evening. I didn't know where I was going and I didn't care. The guy across from me was a gambler. I could tell by the black frock coat and string tie... I'm at the stage where I can recognize good description and most of the time I can see HOW it was done. But when am I going to be able to DO it?

[Liam Jackson]

You know, I was kind of thinking of catching the next flight to Budapest...

Keeping Friendly Skies friendly LOL

Okay, that's enough for me me. When urges become countries, it's time for sleep. Night, all :)

[Marcusthefish]

Fine, but that doesn't jibe with what I've read from other published authors who write on the topic. From our own Jenna Glatzer to Holly Lilse. Nobody says, "don't worry, your publisher and agent will push your book." You have to hit the con circuit; you have to put yourself on your first tour. Publishers put the most marketing power behind the biggest-selling authors, and a first-timer hasn't sold anything, so the marketing power behind them is very little, unless the publisher has reason to believe very strongly in the book.

I just don't agree that it's worth the author's time and effort to try to be a publicist and promoter. The odds of those efforts significantly affecting sales are simply too slim

MTF

[bkrrh85]

Last year at the SCBWI conference in the Raleigh/Durham area, I heard Linda Sue Parks, a recent Newbery award winner, address that very topic.

Her consensus: you can either be a writer, or a book promotionist. She said she chose to write.

It makes a lot of sense to me, although I DO understand the concerns about first-time authors not having the publicity bucks behind them like a big name author would.

Perhaps the answer is in a compromise between the two?

[Medievalist]

I'm at the stage where I can recognize good description and most of the time I can see HOW it was done. But when am I going to be able to DO it?

Get a passage that works, one that's no more than a paragraph or two in length. Now, you're going to imitate it.

Look at the words in your passage. Where the passage uses a noun, you use a noun, but a different noun; where it uses a verb, you use a different verb, but one using the same tense, mood, and number (singular or plural). Do that for every word, including the adverbs, adjectives, etc., in the passage. Imitate every single word. If you have to add an occasional "little" word (an article, maybe a preposition) in order to remain grammatically, correct, do it, but adhere to the basic structure, and word by word class of words used in the passage.

I swear this works. And it works for any kind of passage. You can began to see how the words work, what kinds of choices the writer made.

[maestrowork]

Yup, study the passages that you think work... use a highlighter and mark the words that jump out at you...

And I think you will find that it gets down to "the right words and the right details." Pick the right words and the right details, and you're halfway there. Then arrange them in sentences to conjure the right mood and story...

For example:


So when he’d finished speakin’, he turned back towards the window,
Crushed out his cigarette and faded off to sleep.
And somewhere in the darkness the gambler, he broke even.
But in his final words I found an ace that I could keep.


In four short lines, you have some consistent imageries that convey a mood. Simple words, but the right words, that convey not just the surface meanings, but go deeper. For example, "an ace that I could keep" has a much deeper meaning.

[James D. Macdonald]

Hurrah! Back! There was a glitch in the board that kept me from posting.

Anyway ... have to do some catching up. But while that's happening ...

The Locus Poll only has a couple more days to run. You don't need to be a Locus subscriber to participate.

https://secure.locusmag.com/2005/Issues/02PollAndSurvey.html

[Mr Underhill]

The Locus Poll only has a couple more days to run. You don't need to be a Locus subscriber to participate.

https://secure.locusmag.com/2005/Issues/02PollAndSurvey.htmlSuper! Now all I need to do is track down all those titles, pile them up by my favorite chair, and read them all. I should be done sometime in oh, mid-November, if I apply myself. (Will someone please arrange for regular deliveries of Chinese? Just have it pick randomly from the menu, that's fine...)

I count 19 SF&F novelle on that list. I'm rather amazed that so many were even published last year.

[James D. Macdonald]

It seems a darn shame that a book must fit nicely onto one and only one shelf. I'd love to write a science fiction horror romance, or a comic historical mystery. I'm just afraid I'd be told, "We can't market this." Wouldn't such a book appeal to more people than peruse just one shelf?

The thing is -- the bookstores have to shelve it somewhere. The publishers and the bookstores are trying to maximize sales, so they put a book where they think it'll find the most readers. A book can be a science fiction horror romance, but where it'll be shelved is going to be where they think it'll sell the best, or by which element prevails.

My own Mageworlds series was one of the first space opera/magical fantasy crossovers, and it did real well. (The fourth one in that series, The Gathering Flame, was a romance.)


I know I've used this example before, but Fritz Lieber's Conjure Wife has been packaged and sold as horror, fantasy, and romance.

[Medievalist]

It seems a darn shame that a book must fit nicely onto one and only one shelf. I'd love to write a science fiction horror romance, or a comic historical mystery. I'm just afraid I'd be told, "We can't market this." Wouldn't such a book appeal to more people than peruse just one shelf?

Paranormal romance is very popular -- think of Kim Armstrong, Charlaine Harris' "southern vampire," or even Laurell K. Hamilton.

All three end up in Fantasy, Horror, and Romance, and even the LOC recognizes that in terms of its cataloging data.

Write a really good book; worry about selling it later.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm at the stage where I can recognize good description and most of the time I can see HOW it was done. But when am I going to be able to DO it?

You'll be able to do it after you've done it enough times to see what's happening.

You're a musician practicing scales. You're a magician practicing palming. You listen to yourself, or you watch yourself in a mirror. You go to clubs and listen to the performers, or watch them, as the case may be, to see how the guys who are standing where you want to stand are doing it.

Let me play with that little opening a bit, okay?

It was hot in the train car that evening. I didn't know where I was going and I didn't care. The guy across from me was a gambler. I could tell by the black frock coat and string tie...

Right. "It was" (or "there were") is generally a weak opening. You'll want to have 'em in your bag of tricks for when you want to direct (or misdirect) your readers ... but the first words of a story probably isn't one of those places. What's important here? The heat? The train? I think the important bit is the other character, the guy.

So let's start: The guy...

Which guy?

The guy in the black frock coat. Are both of those adjectives needed? Probably not.

The guy in the frock coat...

Time for the verb ... what's he doing? He's sitting, but that's not too exciting. There's always a version of "to be," but that's not too exciting either. He's a gambler. What's a gambler thing for him to do? How about the trick where you roll a silver dollar over your knuckles. (This also foreshadows his death ... the "ferryman's fee," and the practice of putting silver dollars on a dead man's eyes.)

The guy in the frock coat was rolling a silver dollar across his knuckles.

Now we can set the scene.

The train was going nowhere special, and where I was coming from wasn't anywhere special either.

Action and time, coming up.

I stared out the window into the dark.

Now some dialog.


I didn't figure him for the chatty kind, but after enough hours he stirred, looked me in the eye, and said, "Son...."

And go from there.

[James D. Macdonald]

I can hear you asking, "Uncle Jim, is it true that you do no promotion at all?"

Well, yes and no.

There's this thread, y'see. You all know my name. And anyone who types the words Learn Writing (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710&page=1&pp=25) -- no quotes -- will find this thread on the first page. It was #4 tonight. It's been #1 on some occassions. My very first post here, you'll see a link to my web page.

So that's another thing. My web page. It's been up for years, it lists all my books and where to get 'em, and it has useful stuff. No one is going to go around looking for me -- I'm no one -- but they'll look for useful stuff. So if you type science fiction bookstore (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/bookstor.htm) into Google, one of the top half dozen sites you'll get to (it was #3 as of a couple of minutes ago) is my list of SF/F/H bookstores. In addition to a list of bookstores (I love bookstores -- they sell my books) you'll see some colorful book covers on that page. Those are all links to my books.

Who's visited there?

Web Pages referring to this page within the last 24 hours (min 1 reference):

Google [336]
Yahoo! Search - Web Search [54]
THE TOR BOOKS FAQ [32]
MSN Search: -- More Useful Everyday [6]
Antique Collectible Fantasy Fiction Horror Science [1]
EarthLink Search powered by Google [1]

Do you see the link to the Writer's Weekend (http://www.writersweekend.com/) at the bottom of this post? That's a conference I'm going to, where I'll be a featured speaker. (I've already been to three others this year.)

I've done two book signings this year. One a multi-author thing at a convention, the other a multi-author thing at a bookstore. (They invited me -- in the hour we were there, every copy of one or another of my books in the place sold. No, I didn't count. Who cares?)

I've got the regular writer's workshop (http://www.sff.net/paradise/) I teach in the fall. (Still open if you're planning to apply.)

We've got a LiveJournal (http://www.livejournal.com/users/mist_and_snow/) going for a work in progress.

Many years ago, when I was just beginning one day I visited my publisher, had my editor take me over to the publicity department, and met the head of publicity. I shook his hand, and said, "If there's anything I can do, let me know." He said, "That's what I like to hear."

So, that's what I'm doing for publicity. I've done the tours, I've done the radio stuff, I've had the newspaper articles. Mostly, what I think those things do is give the author something to do with his time so he won't fret.

I'm not having pens with my titles made. I'm not doing bookmarks. I'm not doing postcards. I'm not calling around to bookstores. I'm just here, writing novels, chatting with folks, and getting out into the world once in a while.

[Medievalist]

I'm just here, writing novels, chatting with folks, and getting out into the world once in a while.

I first bought a Doyle and Macdonald book because of something Debra Doye said on SFF.net; I can't even remember what. Might've been a link to her SF as romance rant . ..

[Nangleator]

Originally posted by James D. Macdonald
The thing is -- the bookstores have to shelve it somewhere.
That's understood. I guess it's just that I'm dreading writing the query for something like this. And, as I'm unpublished and without agent, selecting an agent and convincing them that I belong with them sounds very difficult.

Originally posted by Medievalist
Paranormal romance is very popular -- think of Kim Armstrong, Charlaine Harris' "southern vampire," or even Laurell K. Hamilton.
Good to hear. I was thinking that today's publishing industry made crossover (or jambalaya) novels unlikely.

Certainly, any outstanding novel will be sold, but I have yet to discover I can write one that good. Might as well shoot for the moon, though.

BIC, BIC, BIC...

[wurdwise]

I just wanted to say I GOT IT! I finally got what many of you have tried to say gently to this bullheaded Taurus, and what IWrite pounded into my head. James and IWrite and Jalpha especially, long expositions are story killers.

What came to me this morning where two statements James made. 1. You don't have to tell the reader all the details, but you need to know them. When I first read that, I just didn't understand what you meant, James.

But I am revising, and I came upon one of my long passages describing a room, (you know, those passages I defended as THE WAY I WRITE?) I stopped, wrote myself a note there and said, just give the reader Maddy's overall impression of this room, that's not what she came in here for, she's looking for her mother's social security number, not taking a tour!

2. Put a gun to each adjectives head and make them justify their existence. God, I hated reading that the first time! But I am the woman with the gun and those puppies better have a damn good reason for being there!

This board is an invaluable tool, this thread worth gold. And I think I may turn out to be a writer after all.

Thanks,

Denise

[James D. Macdonald]

I just wanted to say I GOT IT!

Kinda like The Rain in Spain, eh?

(Great musical, and the restored version on the DVD is wonderful.)

[maestrowork]

Denise, I'm so glad you finally had that "By George" moment.

Yeah, expositions are summaries, and they're like an uncle sitting next to you and saying, "and then this happened to me." They are good for certain things (transitions, info dump, etc.) but they take you out of the story, out of that "dream state" we novelists strive for so very much.

You don't have to describe the room if it's not part of the story, but if it is (somehow the pattern on the drapes is important) then do describe it -- it adds texture and details to your story -- the point is to put your readers as much as possible in the moment, making them see, hear, taste, feel and smell things. At the same time, move the plot along so we're not standing there looking at things when your protagonist just wants to get in and get out.

(UJ, the restored version is marvelous.)

[wurdwise]

Thanks, Ray. That's what made me realize that I had finally gotten it. I want the reader to come away knowing how Maddy feels about the way her grandma's private bedroom makes her feel, by the way it looks and the things it in, the way it smells, and how she feels very intrusive being in this personal world of the old woman she loves so much. I will use only what i need to create this atmosphere. I am so happy! I feel like Christopher Columbus! The world really isn't square!! :Thumbs:

[Nangleator]

A good way to cure yourself of info dumping is to study the writing of a minimalist. I love Robert B. Parker’s Spencer novels. The series is written in first person, and the style really makes it seem like the daily log of a hard boiled detective. There are descriptive passages, but they are more poetic than lengthy. By poetic, I mean both attractive and efficient. He’s great at using similes and metaphors for comic effect and efficiency.


During passages of dialog, the only words used outside of quotes are either tags or very brief descriptions of what the title character is directly perceiving or thinking. In fact, these descriptions fill in the pertinent ‘stage direction’ of each character. For example, when Spencer’s psychologist girlfriend and others are analyzing him in his presence, the author describes something unimportant happening outside the window and across the street. You can feel Spencer’s discomfort and know he’s turned his head in embarrassment and disinterest. When he’s in the presence of threatening criminals, the descriptions prove he’s watching hands and faces for clues to any impending assault.

When I first tried to emulate him, I was of the impression that brevity was easy because there were fewer words. Good gravy, I couldn’t have been more wrong.

[maestrowork]

A good way to cure yourself of info dumping is to study the writing of a minimalist. I love Robert B. Parker’s Spencer novels.

I suspect that style only works for certain genre or storytelling. If you're writing romance or historical fiction, I doubt that "minimalist" approach would work very well, unlike in suspense or mystery. In sci-fi, you pretty much needs some info dump somewhere if your world is an alien one...

[Roger J Carlson]

Right. "It was" (or "there were") is generally a weak opening. You'll want to have 'em in your bag of tricks for when you want to direct (or misdirect) your readers ... but the first words of a story probably isn't one of those places. Yeah I know. That's why I wrote the Passive Word Highlighter. Works great for pointing out all the 'was's and 'to be's. But then I still have to go back and fix it. And there's the rub.

It's hard to explain but sometimes I can almost hear what a passage is supposed to sound like. Not the words, but the rhythm, the pattern. But when I try to put words into it, it comes out dull and prosaic.

I used to complain that if someone would just work with me and point out the flaws in my story then I could be a publishable writer. But I've come to realize that if I can't start doing it for myself, I'm not really a writer. Why should an editor work with me when he can work with someone who can already do it?

So I keep plugging at it. One hour, every day. Thanks all, especially you, Jim.

[DreamWeaver]

In sci-fi, you pretty much need some info dump somewhere if your world is an alien one...I don't know. I've read some excellent science fiction novels where you pick up the world details bit by bit during the story, so that by the end you have a good world picture. In the course of the story, you always have enough to understand what's going on, but you also have unanswered questions. As a reader, I find it very effective to discover the answers to those questions in the course of the novel, through the natural details and dialog of the story. If well done, I like this technique way better than an info-dump.

On the other hand, I've met folks who simply cannot keep reading if there's even one undefined alien term they don't understand--drives 'em crazy. So, like most techniques, this one doesn't please everyone.

Kris

PS. In my French drama class, we recently studied a classic 17th century play by Corneille. The professor pointed out that entire first act was nothing characters talking about the present situation and the events that caused it, in order to get the audience up to speed. Info-dump is not a recent phenomenon, that's for sure!

[Galoot]

In sci-fi, you pretty much needs some info dump somewhere if your world is an alien one...
Have you ever read A Fire Upon The Deep? Stuff that's way outside our normal experience is all brought home to the reader with very little info-dumping.

The high-tech half of the story has some, with a major character needing to learn things in a hurry and having a local explain it to him, but a whole lot of background stuff is left to be filled in by the reader. What info-dumping does go on in those scenes is very well done.

The other half of the story involves aliens rather unlike anything that had ever been done before in a major work. Their psychology and physiology is just thrown at the reader, and little is explained except through inference and slow learning through dialogue.

It's actually pretty fascinating to see how Vinge does it. He didn't really follow Jim's advice about answering the readers' questions just before they're asked, but I found that working out some of the details for myself before having the author shine some light on them was one of the great things about that book.

[Ken Schneider]

Okay, I'm coming down to the end of my current work.

Jim, your thoughts on my approach.
I plan to toss it in the drawer for a month or so before taking a red pencil to it.

My thought is that it will not be as fresh in my mind when I revisit it.
Then I can say, yuck, and find a better passage or word.

[black winged fighter]

I just got through doing that, and am ready to insert changes/new scenes, and delete the useless stuff.
Now the fun really begins!

[James D. Macdonald]

I plan to toss it in the drawer for a month or so before taking a red pencil to it.

A month minimum. Take the weekend off, then immediately start writing your next book. (That'll help you gain distance, and through distance perspective, on the work in the desk drawer.)

[black winged fighter]

Could anyone help me / direct me to a helpful place concerning this:

She dropped her gaze, and red with anger and shame, noted that she still wore her old, dirty clothes.

vs.

She dropped her gaze, and, red with anger and shame, noted that she still wore her old dirty clothes.

Should there be a comma after the 'and' or not? Is there a more 'correct' way of writing this, or this a stylistic grammar pitfall? Is the comma after 'shame' correct?

[zizban]

First one. Second one doesn't flow.

[reph]

This is correct:

She dropped her gaze and, red with anger and shame, noted that she still wore her old dirty clothes.

No comma after "gaze." That's not a compound sentence; it's a simple sentence with a compound predicate. Take out the "red..." phrase and you have "She dropped her gaze and noted that she still wore her old dirty clothes."

I'm not sure about dropping one's gaze, though. Nobody talks like that. How about "She looked down and..."?

Does she see her redness? Whose POV are you using?

[wurdwise]

She dropped her gaze. Red with anger, filled with shame, she realized she still had on her dirty old clothes.

I think that sounds better. Hope you don't mind. I couldn't resist.

[James D. Macdonald]

Stronger than love, stronger than hate, stronger than self-preservation, is the desire to mess with someone else's prose.

I'm always careful of doing things with gazes and glances.

Try this:


She looked down, ashamed, as she realized she was still wearing her dirty old clothes.


That does depend on your style, the rhythm of the scene, the character being described. Let everything support the effect.

[Ken Schneider]

She looked down. Her face flushed with the heat of anger. The dirty clothes she wore shamed her.

She brushed her hands hands down the front of the dirty shirt. She was ashamed,and angry at herself for allowing him to see her this way.

The dirty shirt screamed at her. She was embarassed, shamed, and angry about her appearence.

Ken.
I'm with my uncle on this one.

Work it out, you'll come up with several ways to say it.
You know the lines before the passage and after. If it is that important to you, you'll find the right way to say it.

[triceretops]

Can I play too?

She was suddenly aware that the musky smell came from her dirty clothes. It filled her with dread--her ankles started to buckle.

Smell
Emotion
Physical reaction




Triceratops

[Mr Underhill]

It's hard to explain but sometimes I can almost hear what a passage is supposed to sound like. Not the words, but the rhythm, the pattern. But when I try to put words into it, it comes out dull and prosaic.

... I've come to realize that if I can't start doing it for myself, I'm not really a writer.I've heard sculptors say that the secret of their art is starting with a block of stone and carefully chipping away all the bits which don't belong.

[alaskamatt17]

Triceratops, I love the pun with your name and title.

[E.G. Gammon]

Jim,

I'm putting myself on a strict writing schedule and wanted to know the average word count per day to shoot for.

[James D. Macdonald]

I prefer time to words -- but if you can do five pages (1,250 words) per day, no one will say you're slacking.

[Nangleator]

In re: the technique of spreading out science fiction info dump over the course of the story, we should coin a new term.

Infotrickle?
Backgrounding?
Infohints?
Worlding?

[James D. Macdonald]

The common term is "in-cluing."

[Roger J Carlson]

I've heard sculptors say that the secret of their art is starting with a block of stone and carefully chipping away all the bits which don't belong.That's a good analogy and very encouraging. I guess I've been influenced by Heinlein too much. He said, "Never revise except by editorial direction." That's probably good advice if you can produce publishable copy in your first draft. I can't.

Maybe I should think of myself as a clay sculptor. Take a little off here, stick it there, smooth it over -- until I've got something that looks like a novel.

[wurdwise]

I'm just a novice, but I think, even though you do need certain basic guidelines, you can't write a novel with your head, it has to come from your heart, your passion. I don't think it can be viewed so analytically, or technically, maybe that's a better word.

[James D. Macdonald]

I guess I've been influenced by Heinlein too much. He said, "Never revise except by editorial direction." That's probably good advice if you can produce publishable copy in your first draft. I can't.


He didn't mean what you think he meant. Heinlein himself wrote multiple drafts and revised his work until it was a finished piece.

After you send it out, though -- if it comes back with a rejection slip, that doesn't mean "rewrite!" that means "send it right back out!"

After you've gotten the piece to where you want it and you've started the submission process, don't revise unless an editor offers you a contract first. Meanwhile, work on your next book.

[black winged fighter]

Thanks for all the ideas - I'll definitely try plugging a few new variations.

And can someone tell me why some reputations are visible, and some aren't? Did I miss something?

[reph]

All reputations are supposed to be invisible now. If you still see some, your browser has stored them, or something like that. The discussion you missed is in Water Cooler Changes and Announcements.

[black winged fighter]

Thanks - will go check it out....

[pianoman5]

"Never revise except by editorial direction." - Heinlein

He didn't mean what you think he meant. Heinlein himself wrote multiple drafts and revised his work until it was a finished piece.


Thanks for that clarification, Jim. I suspect that many writers take his graven statement too literally, under the impression that others will later revise and edit their work to (comparative) perfection, rather than figuring out how to do it themselves before submitting widely.

[E.G. Gammon]

I prefer time to words -- but if you can do five pages (1,250 words) per day, no one will say you're slacking.

Thanks, Jim. And since you said that you prefer time to words, what would be the goal TIME each day for writing?

[James D. Macdonald]

I do two hours.

[zizban]

I usually try for 1,000 words a day but since I have a day job, a part time job and a daughter, it's a challenge sometimes.

[maestrowork]

I try to do 2-3 hours. Sometimes I write 600 words. Sometimes I write 2000. I'd like to keep doing that.

[Euan H.]

I find I work better with a word-count goal rather than time. Usually I go for about 1,000 (which takes me anywhere from one hour to three hours, depending). During Nano last year, I managed 2,000 and up for November and December. Wasnae that hard after the first week or so...but it did take a big chunk out of the day.

And to backtrack for a moment, when I see "She dropped her gaze", my instinctive reaction is to follow it with something like this:

She dropped her gaze. It landed on her foot and shattered into a thousand pieces.

Still, it's better than "she rolled her eyes at him", which just sounds disgusting. What did he do? Roll 'em back?

[Zane Curtis]

Still, it's better than "she rolled her eyes at him", which just sounds disgusting. What did he do? Roll 'em back?

Ah, now. You shouldn't have said that, because I'm tempted to use it...

She rolled her eyes at him, which caused some comment around the room.

"Um," she said. "Could you pass those back. I'm lost without them."

"You have two glass eyes?" He nudged them with the toe of his boot, and they left silvery trail in their wake, like a pair of spherical slugs.

:D

[Paolo]

Ok, so what do you do if your writing resembles something from Atlanta Nights?
Any coming back from that?

[Euan H.]

Ok, so what do you do if your writing resembles something from Atlanta Nights?

Well...you could always self-publish your book at Lulu and splash something like "In the spirit of the 'best-selling' 'novel' Atlanta Nights, this is South Putney Dog-Day Afternoons."

Maybe you could piggy-back on Atlanta Night's success.

She rolled her eyes at him, which caused some comment around the room.

"Um," she said. "Could you pass those back. I'm lost without them."

"You have two glass eyes?" He nudged them with the toe of his boot, and they left silvery trail in their wake, like a pair of spherical slugs.
Heh. How about:

He threw her a dirty look. It landed on her dress with a splatch, leaving a brown stain as it slid downward.

[Paolo]

Well...you could always self-publish your book at Lulu and splash something like "In the spirit of the 'best-selling' 'novel' Atlanta Nights, this is South Putney Dog-Day Afternoons."

Maybe you could piggy-back on Atlanta Night's success.

Well, if I'm gonna' go that route, I might as well do it "right", superfluous quotes and all. I noticed you use single quotes to 'set off' certain phrases. The single quotes look more elegant winging out from the sides of the word like that. I'll keep that in mind for the future.

[katee]

BIC was going so well for me until I hit the current scene I'm up to. Writing it feels like wading through mental molasses.

I'd like to recapture that feeling of fun I was having a couple of thousand words ago. (I seem to have misplaced it - anyone pick it up?)

Are there any good ways to get through scenes like this? I know where my story is going because I've done a fairly decent outline. I know what needs to happen, and I know how my protagonist feels about what's happening, but for some reason, I when I go to write it, it's like pulling teeth. Molars. And I'm a dentist wuss.

I'm only 17k into a planned 90k, so it's going to be hard to force myself to write the last, oh, 73k.

[zizban]

BIC was going so well for me until I hit the current scene I'm up to. Writing it feels like wading through mental molasses.

I'd like to recapture that feeling of fun I was having a couple of thousand words ago. (I seem to have misplaced it - anyone pick it up?)

Are there any good ways to get through scenes like this? I know where my story is going because I've done a fairly decent outline. I know what needs to happen, and I know how my protagonist feels about what's happening, but for some reason, I when I go to write it, it's like pulling teeth. Molars. And I'm a dentist wuss.

I'm only 17k into a planned 90k, so it's going to be hard to force myself to write the last, oh, 73k.


Yes, some here. I'm at 25,000 words and its grinding to a halt. I don't know what to do next or how to get back in the groove.

[maestrowork]

It's not unusual. I was stuck at 30K for a while. Then my crit group said to me, "Just put words on paper. It doesn't matter if it's crap, just get them on paper, get the story out." I had to let my inner editor go, and skip a few scenes that got me stuck... I ended up writing more than 7000 words last week. I hope I'll have the same progress this week...

[debraji]

Sometimes when it all grinds to a halt it's a sign that there's something wrong with the scene. Perhaps it's really unnecessary, or I'm using the wrong POV, or it's really out of character for my hero to act that way.

One way to break the block is to write about the scene and its problems and my feelings about it. Something's jogged loose in the process, and I slip into writing the scene itself.

If I can't figure out what the problem might be, I can either painfully push on through, or skip it and go on. If I don't, I can waste three weeks not-writing a particular scene (speaking from recent experience). Arrrgh!

[zornhau]

BIC was going so well for me until I hit the current scene I'm up to. Writing it feels like wading through mental molasses....

I know where my story is going because I've done a fairly decent outline. I know what needs to happen, and I know how my protagonist feels about what's happening, but for some reason, I when I go to write it, it's like pulling teeth...


Ah, but does your scene have conflict in it, or merely a procession of plot points? Is your protag struggling to achieve something with unexpected results and ramifications, or just experiencing stuff. Does your outline chart encompass one big conflict built of smaller conflicts?

[James D. Macdonald]

Her eyes flew around the room and landed on the curtains.

==================

Welcome to the Dread Mid-Book, folks. Did you ever wonder why most of the folks who start a novel never finish? You're finding out.

All you can do is slog ahead.

Get a copy of The Unstrung Harp, take a break, read it, then get back to the slog. Put your BIC, and type. Just get it on paper.

You can shape the clay later. First you have to get the clay.

=================

If your book sounds like Atlanta Nights -- keep working. You have some learning to do.

[Mr Underhill]

What about writing something else? I find I can always find something to write about for two hours, just not necessarily the thing I think I ought to be writing.

But perhaps that's not a very good idea for the mid-novel slog. One could get derailed and find it very difficult to get back on track. (Yes I know that's a painfully mixed metaphor.) Hopefully Uncle Jim can address when it's appropriate to be writing something, anything, versus staying with one thing.

Just writing is working for me right now, because my primary goal is to firmly establish the BIC habit. When I'm cranking out content I get the positive feedback I need. If I were to try to force myself to make progress on a WIP scene during my BIC time, I'd quickly fall off the wagon.

(Off the wagon and back into the mud, that is. Wagon ruts – yeah, that's the ticket. That's the metaphor I intended with the derailed bit. I meant to do that. Really I did.)

[Christine N.]

During NaNoWriMo, it's called "hitting the wall". All of a sudden every word is crap, nothing works, and you're characters are all suffering from PMS, including the males.

When you hit the wall, start climbing. The other side makes it all worthwhile.

[James D. Macdonald]

If your reaction to hitting the mid-book is to start a new book (to get that Start Of A Book high) what you'll end up with is a trunkfull of unfinished novels. Is that what you want?

Bull your way through. It's okay to skip ahead and write bits that haven't happened yet. It isn't okay to stop this project. If you feel the need to start a second book -- give it its own BIC time in your day.

[maestrowork]

Oh, yeah, pull yourself through. And I have to say, once you get over the mid-book hump, it will most certainly going to be a great ride after that... it's like the downhill spiral of a rollercoaster... you just need to get through that LONG incline first....

I'm speaking from my own experience, of course.

[Roger J Carlson]

I'm no expert, but I've found a system that works for me. I work in several parts of my book at the same time. I have 3 drafts that precede what I all the First Draft: Storyboard, Rough and Draft. Storyboard is like an extended outline where I write the progagonist does this and says that. With the Rough draft, I put it in past tense and add action and dialog. With the Draft version I add description and smooth the dialog. Each chapter has a separate file for each version. When they're all in Draft version, I stitch them together I go over the whole thing for continuity, story arc, and of course endless revising.

But what this gets me in terms of writers block is that if finished prose isn't coming to me, I go work ahead on the Storyboard. If I can't decide where the story is going, maybe I'll work on Rough copy. Or if everything is banging away on all cylinders, I'll work on Draft. The Storyboard and Rough stages allow me to just write junk if I have to because I'll be going over it in Draft. Sometimes, I'm working in Rough and things start clicking and I find I'm really working in Draft mode.

I'm not saying that this method is right for everybody, but it might help to overcome a slump.

[katee]

Wow guys, this makes me feel so much better. I didn't realise I'd reached "the mid book lull" even though I've read about it. I guess I thought I'd be further in to the book before I hit it.

The good news is that I'm not tempted to start writing something else - I feel really committed to this current project. I do have plans for the next book, and the one after that, but any ideas that pop into my head for them get jotted down and ignored.

And thinking about this scene in particular: there isn't any conflict. And its only purpose is to provide a logical link in the story. My protagonist has to get from A to B and the scene is getting her on the journey. I don't want to leave it out, but maybe instead of a lengthy scene with dialog, I should wrap it up quickly with narrative?

Then I'd get to move on to the more exciting bit where she's telling people about the journey. I'm thinking writing the other characters' reactions will be fun.

[astonwest]

Are there any good ways to get through scenes like this? I know where my story is going because I've done a fairly decent outline.
That happened to me a week or so ago...what I ended up doing was writing a scene from later in the book, just to get back in the "feel good" mood (and to finish up a couple of later chapters). Last week, I finally came back to the original scene I'd been stuck on, and was able to get it finished...so at least for me, it helped.

[zizban]

Wow guys, this makes me feel so much better. I didn't realise I'd reached "the mid book lull" even though I've read about it. I guess I thought I'd be further in to the book before I hit it.

The good news is that I'm not tempted to start writing something else - I feel really committed to this current project. I do have plans for the next book, and the one after that, but any ideas that pop into my head for them get jotted down and ignored.

And thinking about this scene in particular: there isn't any conflict. And its only purpose is to provide a logical link in the story. My protagonist has to get from A to B and the scene is getting her on the journey. I don't want to leave it out, but maybe instead of a lengthy scene with dialog, I should wrap it up quickly with narrative?

Then I'd get to move on to the more exciting bit where she's telling people about the journey. I'm thinking writing the other characters' reactions will be fun.

Wrap it up and move on. Come back to it in the second pass.

I haven't started anything else--I just dont feel like writing, period.

[black winged fighter]

When I hit a lull, I switch to one of my other projects; I revise my priority WIP, flip to my new idea, or outline a new concept. By breaking up my writing into different types and mediums, I keep my interest at a high.

Speaking of highs - I think I'm addicted to BIC. I wasn't able to type yesterday due to major exams, and the pent up urge to write has been killing me all day.

Come to think of it, this is actually a good development.

[black winged fighter]

I am just full of questions, these days...

The following is a small section of my WIP:

*
That was why, as the sun was setting, Arnora left her lodgings for a walk around the streets. She needed time to sort out her many futures, all of which were flapping loosely in her mind. That was why she walked, eyes unseeing, past the dark little alley where three men waited. That was why she never heard them follow her, and only realised her error when the club struck the back of her head.
*

It needs work; I dashed it off during a lull point, so these are just words. My real question is about the 'That was why' part. Is that acceptable prose style? I know that parallel construction adds weight to non-fiction, but does it just make the passage seem repetitive?

[zizban]

Whats the part before it?

[maestrowork]

That was why, as the sun was setting, Arnora left her lodgings for a walk around the streets. She needed time to sort out her many futures, all of which were flapping loosely in her mind. That was why she walked, eyes unseeing, past the dark little alley where three men waited. That was why she never heard them follow her, and only realised her error when the club struck the back of her head.



I think the parallel "That was why" are fine. Repetition means emphasis. The problem I have here is that I don't know whose point of view it is. It sounds like her POV (in blue), but at the same time, it's not, because the omniscient narrator is clearly speaking here (in red). I think you wrote it duing a "null point" -- I suspect that you just couldn't get into the character? It just sounds like the narrator (you) are poking out, unable to let the story and the POV character take center stage...

[black winged fighter]

Ah, maestorwork, you've hit the problem exactly! I just couldn't see it for myself - I've been over that passage so many times before that the words no longer hold meaning and life for me.
I will fix this asap - it's definitely supposed to be 3rd person limited.

Thanks!

[zornhau]

And thinking about this scene in particular: there isn't any conflict. And its only purpose is to provide a logical link in the story. My protagonist has to get from A to B and the scene is getting her on the journey. I don't want to leave it out, but maybe instead of a lengthy scene with dialog, I should wrap it up quickly with narrative?

Then I'd get to move on to the more exciting bit where she's telling people about the journey. I'm thinking writing the other characters' reactions will be fun.

IMVHO, ways I've seen around this include:

Jump straight to her relating the journey
Throw in some local conflict (woman against journey) illuminating or changing her character, turning the journey into a neat short story - e.g. travelling companions include a drunk, randy, priest, a lunatic etc, or the coachman doesn't speak her language and she has to struggle not to get left behind, or sold to slavers.
Give her one of the supporting characters as a travelling companion, and have them at odds with how she should behave, even though it's her unladylike actions which keep them out of peril.
Use the journey as the stage for her inner conflict - by the time she's arrived, she's made a decision about something, partly due to her experiences en route.
Use the journey as a setting for another scene, e.g. take a later scene where she meets and quarrels with the love interest, and dump into the journey scene
Or, just make a note [COOL JOURNEY SCENE HERE] and come back to it when you've worked out what to do with it.

[stranger]

I was writing over the weekend and came across this problem. My novel is third person limited (with multible POVs.) But I found myself using first person when I was reporting my character's direct thoughts.
e.g. "I must tell someone about this. But who?"
It seems to read okay to me. I can re-write without using the first person but it generally becomes more clunky.
On a similar note should I use italics for direct thoughts?

[James D. Macdonald]

If it sounds okay, and you're consistent, why not write in first person for the thoughts?

And yes, use italics for thoughts. Unless you decide to do something different. As long as you're consistent. Don't confuse the readers.

[Christine N.]

It sounds like the first person is the POV characters thoughts? That's ok to do, as long as you indicate it's a thought.

Most publishers want thoughts underlined when you submit an ms. The formatter will turn it into italics when the book is being formatted for the printer. So don't worry about it. If you want to italicize for yourself, just make sure you underline on the final draft.

[stranger]

Thanks, I thought it might be considered mixing up third person and first person POVs.

I'm not sure if I should use italics (I underline if I want italics) for direct thoughts. Sometimes it's hard to figure out whether something is a direct thought or not. I read (pronounced red) somewhere that if you use a deep POV, where you are deeply inside your characters head then you don't need the italics.

I certainly don't want to have long passages in italics. I may leave them out for now and decide in a later draft if it seems better with or without.

[Marcusthefish]

I vote for sticking with third person: She had to tell someone. But who?

The constant switching bothers me (as a reader).

MTF

[reph]

Sometimes it's hard to figure out whether something is a direct thought or not. I read (pronounced red) somewhere that if you use a deep POV, where you are deeply inside your characters head then you don't need the italics.
Sometimes the choice might depend on how verbalized the thought is.

[jdparadise]

BIC was going so well for me until I hit the current scene I'm up to. Writing it feels like wading through mental molasses.

I'd like to recapture that feeling of fun I was having a couple of thousand words ago. (I seem to have misplaced it - anyone pick it up?)

Are there any good ways to get through scenes like this? I know where my story is going because I've done a fairly decent outline.


I'm running into a similar thing, but I think I figured out the reason. Figure out the reason why you're sticking and it'll help figure out how to unstick.

Mine, in this case, was that I was pulling the character away from the essence-of-the-character I'd established for her in my mind. I was making her do things in a way she wouldn't do them... so it was, obviously, very difficult to make her do them. Once I realized what I was doing and switched tactics, it became much easier to see how to finish the scene.

Another common thing that slows a story down in the 15-30k mark is running out of the energy given by the initial idea. One solution to that one is to retreat from the keyboard and see where the stuff that's already been established can lead... if it can't lead anywhere, it's not a very good beginning :).

[jdparadise]

And thinking about this scene in particular: there isn't any conflict. And its only purpose is to provide a logical link in the story. My protagonist has to get from A to B and the scene is getting her on the journey. I don't want to leave it out, but maybe instead of a lengthy scene with dialog, I should wrap it up quickly with narrative?


Good realization! No-conflict scenes are killers.

Either introduce plot-related (or relateable) conflict, or skip the scene entirely. Leave a note in the manuscript saying "Insert description of X's trip to Y here." It's fairly likely that, when you read the thing over again later, you'll decide to just delete the note and go on with what you have, because it'll work just fine.

[Marcusthefish]

Another common thing that slows a story down in the 15-30k mark is running out of the energy given by the initial idea. One solution to that one is to retreat from the keyboard and see where the stuff that's already been established can lead... if it can't lead anywhere, it's not a very good beginning :).

This is very true. As a recovering serial novel-abandoner, though, I'd suggest you not give in to the impulse to stop and evaluate. If you're too critical, you might say "this is hopelessly shitty," and give up. It may actually be shitty, but it's probably too early to tell if it's hopeless (it's certainly too early for you to judge that accurately). And to paraphrase Uncle Jim, not finishing guarantees that the book will never be published.

MTF

[Nangleator]

Comment and question:

I got to the end of my novel and am revising. My POV was 3rd, limited, with a POV change nearly every scene. I did direct thoughts in first person, and underscored.

Of course, in revision, I see places where the narrative seems to come from the POV character's thoughts, so I have to clarify what the narrative says and what a character has to think 'out loud.'

For example:

The tunnel was a little over a meter in diameter, with walls more smooth than a typical digger would cut. Could the tunnel have been made by some digger from Goliath? Max floated in the opening, examining it. No, the sequence is all wrong. Kyle had definitely entered the asteroid before Goliath arrived.

'Goliath' is a ship name, and so italicized (underscored.) The sentence "Kyle had definitely..." is part of the narrative, but could be turned into Max's direct thoughts. I'd underscore it and delete "had." I might change "arrived" into "showed up."

As for my question, my novel seems to have been written by someone smarter than I am. It shouldn't surprise me, because it's a year of brain work condensed to just a few hours of reading. But should I work at making the reader feel smarter? I certainly enjoy a book more when I think I've figured out things the author hasn't specifically stated. How much should I let the reader read between the lines?

It would be like stroking the reader's ego. Is this something you can or should shoot for?

[James D. Macdonald]

Making the reader feel smart is a good thing.

[Nangleator]

Originally posted by James D. Macdonald
Making the reader feel smart is a good thing.
I've never seen any discussion on doing this. Is it just a matter of leaving enough details for the average (or smarter) reader to put pieces together?

I guess I already do this. I just don't think of it as helping the reader feel smart.

This technique could be used for misdirection. But I don't suppose it would be a bad thing for the reader to be surprised once per book.

[black winged fighter]

I try to hide my clues a little and let the reader's subconscious put them together. It makes the end click, and the reader doesn't jump up and say, "Hey, this wasn't supposed to happen!"
But, personally, I don't like knowing endings in advance - I like my surprises just fine.

[PattiTheWicked]

Bull your way through. It's okay to skip ahead and write bits that haven't happened yet. It isn't okay to stop this project. If you feel the need to start a second book -- give it its own BIC time in your day.

I tend to have two WIPs at any given time, from completely different genres, so if I get stuck on -- or just plain fed up with -- one of them, I always have the other one to go play with. I reached a point recently where I was having a Mood -- one of the ISMs mentioned in another thread -- and hated all my characters, settings, locations, dialogue, etc.

I've found when I get in one of my Moods -- and a Mood is indeed worthy of capitalization -- the best thing I can do is read a really good book by someone else. I set my own stuff aside for five days, and devoured a fun chick-lit novel by Katie McAllister, and chased that with Michael Crighton's Eaters of the Dead. Two vastly different works, but both good reads and well-written enough to inspire me to get my a$$ back to work.

Now it's all good.

[PattiTheWicked]

*
That was why, as the sun was setting, Arnora left her lodgings for a walk around the streets. She needed time to sort out her many futures, all of which were flapping loosely in her mind. That was why she walked, eyes unseeing, past the dark little alley where three men waited. That was why she never heard them follow her, and only realised her error when the club struck the back of her head.
*



I hate to nitpick. I really do, and please don't take this personally. But the phrase "eyes unseeing" just rubs me the wrong way, because it seems the word "eyes" shouldn't be in there.

"she walked, unseeing," makes more sense. Putting "eyes" in there just makes me think, "Well, at least it wasn't some OTHER body part that was unseeing."

I'm sorry. Maybe it's just me and I'm a meanie poo poo head.

[alaskamatt17]

You are wicked.

[Lenora Rose]

I've never seen any discussion on doing this. Is it just a matter of leaving enough details for the average (or smarter) reader to put pieces together?

I guess I already do this. I just don't think of it as helping the reader feel smart.

This technique could be used for misdirection. But I don't suppose it would be a bad thing for the reader to be surprised once per book.

The big thing is, don't condescend. Don't include details the reader can figure out for himself. Don't put in things just because you think, "Oh, if I don't say this, they'll never get it." I think this is a lot of the motivation behind "Show, don't tell", though it carries over to most other ways a writer can choose details, and choose when to speak plainly, and when to be subtle.

My favourite example is an essay I once read by Diana Wynne Jones. She talks about the first novel she consciously wrote for adults and not YA or Children. (The one in question is called, IIRC, "A Sudden Wild Magic"). And she talks about feeling the need to explain *more* to the adult crowd, to repeat points of detail three times that she would mention once for her usual children's audience.

<tangent>For those who think this is backwards, she pointed out that her experience at signings and cons showed her that the parents of kids reading her kids' books tended to get lost or frustrated more often by the things she leaves implicit, where the kids are more willing to wait and learn, to let something unexplained go by - since they KNOW they're still learning about the world and most other subjects. Adults are done with school, done with learning.</tangent>

The problem with this is, that particular book was weakened by the decision to explain more often. Most of its flaws (As opposed to those things that might just not be to your taste, like conga lines causing serious magical feedback) can be explained by reading that essay and that decision.

[Roger J Carlson]

I wonder if you guys would help me improve a paragraph. This one has been driving me nuts for the last couple of days. I've wasted more than an hour of BIC over this.

Here's the setup. The protagonist is a young girl. She is sitting at a table with her mother (Filippa), father, and uncle. Previously, the father and uncle got the girl in a potentially dangerous situation which fortunately turned out all right. The father and uncle are suggesting they try it again. Here's the paragraph:

Filippa's eyes widened and her back stiffened.

"No!" she exclaimed. "I don't care what. You two are not going doing that to her again." By then, she was on her feet, fists on hips, looking very dangerous.What I'm having trouble with is the last sentence. I knew when I wrote it that it was no good, but I was writing as fast as I could at that time. I decided I could go back and fix it. Well, I'm trying to do that now, and I'm stuck.

At first, I thought about changing the "looking very dangerous" to something like "looking like a mother <animal's name here> protecting her <offspring's name here>", but that was a little too prosaic. I also (briefly) considered something like "...her eyes flashing" but I quickly dismissed that too.

I realize that it is passive and also "telling" instead of "showing". I was going for brevity. How can I do this without spending a lot of verbage on "showing". I don't want to slow down the story at this point with a lot of description.

Thoughts?

[maestrowork]

To make it more active and "showing"...

Cut "By then."

Give her more action. Also, mind the "said" syndrome. No need to use "exclaimed." "Said" would be fine -- she's clearly "exclaiming" by the sound of the dialogue.

"You're not going do that to her again." She stood and huffed, her fists jammed on her hips and her hair standing like ruffled feathers.

(OK, the last line with the hair is probably too much... but you get the idea. If you want to complete the "protective hen" imagery, you can use "crow" instead of "exclaim" -- okay, so why is that okay to replace "say" but not "exclaim"? Because in this case, you'll be trying to conjure a specific image -- an angry, protective hen... )

[James D. Macdonald]

Change "looking very dangerous" to "glaring."

[Roger J Carlson]

So how about:

"No!" she said. "I don't care what. You two are not going doing that to her again." She stood, jammed fists on her hips, and glared.

[James D. Macdonald]

Works for me. Carry on with your novel.

[Roger J Carlson]

Got it. Thanks. I don't know why this was such a stumbling block.

[maestrowork]

Sometimes when we're deep in our thoughts and processes, we can't see what is clear to others. That's why I take breathers all the time, to clear my head and look at my work with a fresh pair of eyes.

But like UJ said, you've got it. Now move on. ;)

[Roger J Carlson]

But like UJ said, you've got it. Now move on. ;)Yes'm, Boss. Right away, Boss.:D

[reph]

So how about:

"No!" she said. "I don't care what. You two are not going doing that to her again." She stood, jammed fists on her hips, and glared.
That version gave me some hesitation as a reader – I had to stop and interpret – because I didn't know whether to understand "jammed" as a verb or an adjective. Did she do three things in succession: (1) stand up, (2) jam her fists onto her hips, and (3) glare? Or did she spring up and simultaneously put her fists on her hips and glare?

If you want an impression of dramatic suddenness, this would do it for me: "She stood, fists jammed into her hips, and glared."

[DreamWeaver]

If you want an impression of dramatic suddenness, this would do it for me: "She stood, fists jammed into her hips, and glared."Um, in my part of the country we wouldn't use 'fists jammed into hips'--but that could be a regional difference. For instance, we mash keyboard keys, but I'm pretty sure folks in other parts of the country simply push them.

Kris

[reph]

In my part (western U.S.), to mash something is to squash it flat. Computer manuals, which presumably speak without an accent, talk about pressing the keys.

The "jammed into" suggests force, which I think R. C. wants: his character is angry.

[Mr Underhill]

... I've wasted more than an hour of BIC over this.

Filippa's eyes widened and her back stiffened.

"No!" she exclaimed. "I don't care what. You two are not going doing that to her again." By then, she was on her feet, fists on hips, looking very dangerous.Less is more. I'd have to see more of the dialogue, but I would drop almost all of the description and let her words do it. Maybe all of the description. So it would read like,"It'll work this time, trust me," her uncle said.

"You two are not doing that to her again."That pretty much tells us what's happening. If you want to have an action in there, pick one, such as she was on her feet, that is representative of her body language.

And FWIW, my understanding of the Uncle Jim method is that time spent revising your work doesn't count as BIC, so we shouldn't be staring at a sentence we just wrote for an hour. Just put a little pin with a red flag in it, and keep moving. Of course, I'm still trying to cultivate my own BIC habit to the point I get the shakes if I go a day without putting words to page, so what do I know.

[gp101]

An hour on a paragraph? Wait till you spend DAYS on a sentence.

Skip over your paragraph and come back to it when you hit the dreaded "writer's block" and need to take your mind off it. Or wait till you've finished the entire WIP. With fresh eyes I'm sure you'll whip up a better pragraph than any of us can considering you know your story better than any of us. You might even determine you don't need that paragraph and delete it. Why kill yourself now if you might kill the fruits of your frustration later?

[Roger J Carlson]

And FWIW, my understanding of the Uncle Jim method is that time spent revising your work doesn't count as BIC, so we shouldn't be staring at a sentence we just wrote for an hour. Just put a little pin with a red flag in it, and keep moving. Of course, I'm still trying to cultivate my own BIC habit to the point I get the shakes if I go a day without putting words to page, so what do I know.With all due respect to Uncle Jim, an hour a day is all I have. Revising must count as BIC with me. In fact, the hour I spent on this paragraph was cumulative. I've been working on revising this whole chapter for several days. Each time I bumped into this paragraph I'd spend 10-15 minutes trying to fix it, get frustrated, and move on.

The WIP IS finished, at least the first draft is. I'm in revise mode now. My goal is to cut 25,000 words out of 125,000. I don't know if I can, but I'm going to try. Every word cut is a victory, so I also thought about leaving the description out altogether. But one sentence isn't bad, and that's what I was aiming for.

Thank you all for your help.

[maestrowork]

The "jammed into" suggests force, which I think R. C. wants: his character is angry.

Exactly. It's the choice of word that conveys certain emotions -- a typical use of "show, not tell." When I suggested the verb "jam" it was to convey the anger of the character in a more active way, instead of just "fists on her hips."

[maestrowork]

Less is more. I'd have to see more of the dialogue, but I would drop almost all of the description and let her words do it. Maybe all of the description. So it would read like,"It'll work this time, trust me," her uncle said.

"You two are not doing that to her again."That pretty much tells us what's happening. If you want to have an action in there, pick one, such as she was on her feet, that is representative of her body language.


Well, in this case I don't think the dialogue alone is enough. At least not the way it's written now. I have no idea how she's going to say "You two are not doing that to her again." Is she calm? Is she sarcastic? Is she angry?

But if you follow it with "She jammed her fists into her hips," it's very clear that she said it with anger.

I agree you don't have to overload the scene with descriptions and such, but a little action, a little "showing" goes a long way.

Now, if the dialogue is, "You two dumb f*** are not doing that to her again. Ever!" then I suppose the line itself is enough and you don't need any action to go with it.

[MacAllister]

I'm actually not crazy about "jam"--it seems an eccentric choice for that particular action.

But we could debate every single word til the cows come home--and it seems far more important to let it go and write forward...then pick it up on rewrite, if it still seems so important.

[Roger J Carlson]

If I could impose one more time...:)

I put a query letter for a different novel (Crystal Dreams) on the Share Your Work/SF and Fantasy board. I don't think it gets a huge amount of traffic, so I'd appreciate it if you guys could pop over and take a look at it.

Here's the link:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12031

Thanks.

[maestrowork]

Mac, RJ is in rewrite mode. ;)

If he's going to do only two drafts (like Stephen King does), then now is the time to agonize over every word choice and sentence. ;)

BIC usually only works during first draft.

[MacAllister]

oops! my apologies. heh.

Agonize away, then! :D

[James D. Macdonald]

My goal is to cut 25,000 words out of 125,000. I don't know if I can, but I'm going to try.

Set your wordprocessor to search for "ly" and delete all your -ly words.

Check your wordcount then.

[reph]

Set your wordprocessor to search for "ly" and delete all your -ly words.
I am so tempted to rep to that advice because I'm thinking of times when it won't app.

Catch you later. I'm off to swat a f.

[maestrowork]

Set your wordprocessor to search for "ly" and delete all your -ly words.

Check your wordcount then.

I hope he doesn't have a character whose name is Lily or Emily.



:)

[alaskamatt17]

I set it my word processor to highlight all of those -ly words. Then I searched through and deleted most of them (sorry, Uncle Jim, I left about fifteen -ly adjectives in my 106,000 word manuscript). Cutting 25,000 words out of 125,000 word manuscript seems like it would be tough to do. I'd start with slashing scenes before cutting adjectives.

[pianoman5]

Set your wordprocessor to search for "ly" and delete all your -ly words.



I hope you've got your tongue firmly planted in your cheek, UJ.

It's always a useful exercise to do an "-ly" search as it does highlight a number of redundant adverbs that deserve to be shot at dawn, especially the ones associated with dialogue tags.

But I have to question your use of 'all'. I've stood all of mine up against a wall and demanded they rationalise their presence in my work, and quite a number of them have said, "Because removing us would suck life and meaning out of it."

[Roger J Carlson]

Set your wordprocessor to search for "ly" and delete all your -ly words.

Check your wordcount then.Hey, that gives me an idea for another program: Adverb Eliminator. It'll work like this:

Make a copy of your file
Turn on Track Changes (MS Word of course)
Check every word to see if it ends in ly
If so, delete it
When done, you can go back and scroll through the deletions and either accept or reject it.
Could work. Thanks, Jim.

[James D. Macdonald]

If, when you've pointed your pistol at the adverb's head and said, "Ask yourself, punk, do you feel lucky?" the poor little word makes a case for its survival, you can let it stay.

Sort of a catch-and-release program.

Everything must advance the plot, support the theme, or reveal character. Those things that only do one of the above ... may find themselves in the Cold Darkness.

[Medievalist]

Hey, that gives me an idea for another program: Adverb Eliminator. It'll work like this:

Make a copy of your file
Turn on Track Changes (MS Word of course)
Check every word to see if it ends in ly
If so, delete it
When done, you can go back and scroll through the deletions and either accept or reject it.
Could work. Thanks, Jim.

Were I doing this, I'd add an exception list, which could be derived by using a wild card search or boolean search of an online dictionary.

[DreamWeaver]

A search for -ly words is pretty easy; is there any way other than a line-by-line reading to weed out excess adjectives? YMMV, but if every noun in a sentence has one or more adjectives, I know I've got gardening to do. I invariably end up with too many adjectives in my first draft.

My apologies if this has been covered recently. I haven't read the complete back-thread yet.

Kris

[maestrowork]

I guess we do have to go line by line to find those pesky adjectives.

[LightShadow]

Isn't it just a matter of omitting needless words? (as E.B. White would say)

[reph]

A search for -ly words is pretty easy; is there any way other than a line-by-line reading to weed out excess adjectives?
What's wrong with line by line? Wouldn't you look at every line anyway while writing the second draft? (=, roughly, editing the first draft)?

[LightShadow]

I do everything line by line, but sometimes you still miss something. Thing is, if you've been reading all your life, and reading things that are grammatically correct, you'll know something's wrong without even remembering the specific rules.

[DreamWeaver]

Isn't it just a matter of omitting needless words? (as E.B. White would say)Yes, I suppose you could look at it that way. I think of it more as style surgery than as correcting grammar, so omitting needless words works. The style part would be deciding if they are excess or not.

The pitfall in doing it line-by-line is that sometimes one only sees what one expects to see. A computer search for -ly words will find them, when one's brain might skip over them. I haven't figured out a way to do that kind of mechanical double-check with adjectives, so even when they could go, I often miss them until someone (beta reader, proof reader, friend--I'm not published, so no editor) points them out. If I'm lucky. If the readers are being too polite, they won't point out excess adjectives because they're not grammatically wrong.

To illustrate, here's the same sentence before and after a successful adjective check (my style only, yours may legitimately differ):

Excess adjectives:
A small brown bird sang a sweet and soulful song from the drooping branches of a leafy green willow tree which stood on the muddy banks of the gently flowing stream.

After adjective check: A small bird sang its song in the leafy branches of a willow tree on the banks of the stream.

No adjectives at all: A lark sang in the willow near the brook.

My drafts includes everything with very little mental editing, so the first example is fairly accurate. The second example is what the excess adjective check gives me, and the third example is what I aim for. Not that I don't want any adjectives at all, just that I want to use them carefully, only when I need them.

Kris

[LightShadow]

Even the needless stuff is needed every once in a while. How many books have you ever read without -ly adverbs, for example?

[Lenora Rose]

Even the needless stuff is needed every once in a while. How many books have you ever read without -ly adverbs, for example?

I believe that's what's called: Everything in moderation, including moderation.

IIRC, J.K. Rowling uses far more adverbs than is common in North American writing, and to some degree this is seen as personal style, to some degree part of an overall East-of-Atlantic style (Britain tends to be more forgiving of extra flowers in prose than the US, and in some other Romance languages, what is considered spare in English is considered *disgustingly* bare and just reads wrong.), and to some degree as a flaw in her writing.

To what degree each aspect is emphasized depends on the reader.

I will say that I wouldn't recommend her as an example of good style (Especially with all the ALL CAPS SENTENCES ENDING IN EXCLAMATION POINTS!) but of good story overcoming some rough prose. I'd also frown upon an as-yet unpublished writer using her success to excuse their own excesses in prose (Or a published one using it as an excuse to one's editor when the editor asks to cut a few...).

I cut adverbs as often as I can, but still have a novel whose opening sentence has an adverb. I held a gun to that adverb about four different times, and it always talked me out of the cut.

(The sentence in question is "He watched the other boys covertly.")

[black winged fighter]

While I definitely don't enjoy overcrowded sentences, I don't like minimalist writing, either.
"A lark sang in the willow near the brook" is bare of adjectives, and if an entire book were written this way, I would lose interest quickly. However, I use passages like this one to break up my more descriptive writing and move the story along.

[jules]

Hey, that gives me an idea for another program: Adverb Eliminator.


OK, that's it. Too many things I want that you can't easily do with existing word processors. I'm going to start work on 'novelkit', a piece of software I've been planning for a while, and you just gave me an idea for a useful feature: automatic highlighting and counting of the various parts of speech.


I've found a piece of software ( Link Grammar (http://www.link.cs.cmu.edu/link/) ) that seems reasonably accurate at identifying them (it even picks up made-up words used as adjectives or adverbs!) and could be built into it.


Britain tends to be more forgiving of extra flowers in prose than the US


Is that true? I've never really noticed much style difference between British and American authors, to be honest with you. But perhaps there's a greater divide in different genres (genre expectations form style as much as the author's natural use of language, I think); my reading tends to be limited to either very popular/well received books or SF/fantasy.

[LightShadow]

Adverbs have their place, and often it's in action type situations of a novel. As for Rowling, I just love her. I recognize that her style is not one I could get away with, nor do I want to, but it's still fun reading. Thing is, some complain that I am too serious when I write. They ask, "don't you have a sense of humor?" I overtly answer metaphorically and seriously, "I have five senses, and humor is not one of them." What? That made no sense. I'll have to smell that one out.

[jules]

"He watched the other boys covertly."

I certainly agree with keeping this one. There's no other good way of describing that; "He spied on the other boys" has a very different feel to it, and implies (to me) an ongoing state rather than a single event.

[astonwest]

I cut adverbs as often as I can, but still have a novel whose opening sentence has an adverb. I held a gun to that adverb about four different times, and it always talked me out of the cut.

(The sentence in question is "He watched the other boys covertly.")
Myself,I'd rather see it than be told...regardless of the -ly.
for example, "He snuck brief looks at the other boys."

[DreamWeaver]

"A lark sang in the willow near the brook" is bare of adjectives, and if an entire book were written this way, I would lose interest quickly. However, I use passages like this one to break up my more descriptive writing and move the story along.Thanks, that's close to what I was trying to show, though I oversimplified it. Your point is well taken.

I didn't mean everyone should avoid all adjectives whatsoever. I try to save mine for important places to move the plot along, or to add detail to thematic elements, or of course for those places where only an adjective fits. The example I used was skewed toward background detail. And of course reading preferences and writing styles differ; if they didn't, book stores would be much, much smaller than they are :).

I started paying attention to adjectives after taking a introductory course in French literature, in French. One technique for finding a jumping-off place to analyse a poem was to simply list the words in it as verb, noun, adjective, adverb (plus whatever other categories you might find useful, such as pronouns or conjunctions). I was amazed at how incredibly few adjectives I found in the medieval troubadour's love poems we studied. Quite an eye-opener.

Kris

[LightShadow]

Sometimes they (adjectives) are necessary to flower it up. Writing is magic. Just read the first page of Fahrenheit 451 for an example. His adjectives swim in a swarm of fireflies, blackened and changed by an orange flame in a gorging fire; as he would say, but it works because it's not the elimination of them, but how he uses them. Also notice that there is not a single -ly adverb in the whole lot, yet on the second page two jump up in the first sentence of the new scene (neatly, luxuriously)

[reph]

Lyrics of pop songs have hardly an -ly adverb, but they get an emotional reaction.

[LightShadow]

Yeah, but ooh baby baby doesn't come across as well in literature.

[DreamWeaver]

Lyrics of pop songs have hardly an -ly adverb, but they get an emotional reaction.I started running pop songs through my head after reading that. Now, my specialty is classic rock, but in the songs I thought of right away, you were absolutely right. Not a whole lot of -ly adverbs, and not a whole lot of adjectives, either. Not NONE, just not a lot. Wonder if country is the same? Bet opera's not! But I'm getting outside your parameters.

Of course, the two anti-examples that jumped immediately to mind were "Killing Me Softly With His Song" (not sure that's the right title) and "Little Red Corvette".

Kris

[MacAllister]

Opera is largely dialog and interior monologue (arias) :)

[reph]

"And must I now begin to doubt
Who never doubted all these years?
My heart is stone, and still it trembles,
The world I have known is lost in shadow.
Is he from heaven or from hell,
And does he know
That granting me my life today
This man has killed me even so?
I am reaching, but I fall..."

From Les Misérables, a musical but a rather operatic one, in which the lyrics reveal character and advance the story like anything. This excerpt has not one modifier of the kind we're talking about.

[maestrowork]

This is one of my favorite song lyrics. There's hardly any use of the "ly" words and adjectives are down to the bare necessity...


Is it cloak 'n dagger
Could it be spring or fall
I walk without a cut
Through a stained glass wall
Weaker in my eyesight
The candle in my grip
And words that have no form
Are falling from my lips

These dreams go on when I close my eyes
Every second of the night I live another life
These dreams that sleep when it's cold outside
Every moment I'm awake the further I'm away

[Lenora Rose]

Myself,I'd rather see it than be told...regardless of the -ly.
for example, "He snuck brief looks at the other boys."

Aston: I might agree in other circumstances. But in the context... suffice to say, the line you wrote wouldn't work. Wrong rhythm is the key one, but also sufficiently different implications as to be painful. ("Watched", even covertly, doesn't resemble "snuck brief looks".)

Turst me, there are a lot of ways I've written and rewritten that opening scene... probably twice as many as there have been drafts of most of the rest of the novel.

That line never changed. It wasn't always the opening line, since I was previously stupid and included about four pages of just explaining backstory before it. But it, in itself, has not altered.

[Zane Curtis]

When I critique the works of inexperienced writers, I end up recommending cutting adjectives and adverbs about half the time. But often people get the wrong idea. They think I'm saying all adjectives and adverbs are a bad thing. It's bad when adjectives pile on top of each other in great festering heaps, often so that there are more adjectives in a sentence than nouns and verbs. It's bad too when weak verb-adverb pairs start to take the place of strong verbs. Sure, there is a difference between "walk quietly" and "slink", but why would you want your character to do something as tedious as walk quietly, when he could creep, or stalk, or sneak, or any number of other interesting things?

Generally, the way I look at it is this. There can be adverbs and adjectives in a piece of writing, but they have to justify themselves. When I'm editing my writing, every adverb and adjective has to go before the Spanish Inquisition and account for itself. If it doesn't contribute more than a trivial distinction, then it's out. White snow? As opposed to what? Yellow snow? It's gone. Red snow? Now there's a meaningful distinction for you -- and a vivid image.

Adjectives and adverbs have to pay their way.

[Zane Curtis]

Aston: I might agree in other circumstances. But in the context... suffice to say, the line you wrote wouldn't work. Wrong rhythm is the key one, but also sufficiently different implications as to be painful. ("Watched", even covertly, doesn't resemble "snuck brief looks".)

Turst me, there are a lot of ways I've written and rewritten that opening scene... probably twice as many as there have been drafts of most of the rest of the novel.

That line never changed. It wasn't always the opening line, since I was previously stupid and included about four pages of just explaining backstory before it. But it, in itself, has not altered.

In this context, I think I'd agree with you. "Covertly" is sufficiently meaningful to justify itself. And if it was, say, the only modifier in the paragraph, nobody would look twice at it... except other writers critiquing your work, looking for something to pick apart.

[Zane Curtis]

If, when you've pointed your pistol at the adverb's head and said, "Ask yourself, punk, do you feel lucky?" the poor little word makes a case for its survival, you can let it stay.

Well, what do you know. Uncle Jim's already said what I just said. No flies on him. ;)

[maestrowork]

If you have no better way, absolutely not, than to say "he watched covertly" then for cryin' out loud, write "he watched covertly." Not every adjective or adverb should be executed in cold blood. Some are very useful: for example, to move things along, especially in summary form.

But if there's another way to show us how he watched them covertly, and put us there, make us watch him watch the boys "covertly" then PLEASE make us do that. Help us see it. Help us feel the way he watched them covertly. Make your character act! To do less is to be lazy.

[astonwest]

Aston: I might agree in other circumstances. But in the context... suffice to say, the line you wrote wouldn't work. Wrong rhythm is the key one, but also sufficiently different implications as to be painful. ("Watched", even covertly, doesn't resemble "snuck brief looks".)
Without seeing the rest of the following text, it's difficult to gauge what was going on...but as maestro pointed out, showing is always a bonus...

My first lines always end up being vague (and quite often end up being dialogue, go figure):

"That was hell."
"I'm telling you, I don't know what you're talking about."

[debraji]

Maud Newton, in her terrific blog (http://www.maudnewton.com/blog/), talks about the conflict between the writing class dictum, "show, don't tell," and really examining the character's mind. She found that the novel she was writing was too focused on externals.


For years I've struggled to write in a clear, straightforward style unencumbered by adjectives, adverbs, and especially abstractions. I've avoided the passive construction, opting always for active verbs: he kicked, he punted, he slept, he killed her. Feelings, I've thought, and emotional states, should be rendered through action, through concrete detail. The protagonist may feel sad, but the writer does not say that. She notes that the protagonist's stomach tightens, that he frowns, that his eyes turn far too often to a portrait of his dead mother.

To use abstraction in a story, to directly explore a character's feelings or psychology, is to violate an unspoken rule that contemporary fiction should be as much like a screenplay as possible. Storytelling increasingly is influenced by film. The physicality of characters, rather than their emotional states, is paramount. And to probe a character's inner life in any but the most detached, ironic way, is to engage in a quaint, outmoded Nineteenth Century custom. It's the literary equivalent of using a shaving mug.


But she finds that limiting herself external descriptions representing interior states has become...too limiting.

See her May 7th post, "Characters' internal lives." Really good reading.

[James D. Macdonald]

It all depends on how important the covert watching is. If it's very important you can write a whole scene showing him watching covertly. If it's not so important, you can say "he watched covertly" and get on to the important stuff.

[James D. Macdonald]

If your novel is about inner states, then by all means write about inner states.

Incidentally -- I use a shaving mug, and got my younger son a shaving mug (with a nice badger-bristle brush) for Christmas.

The rule isn't "show, don't tell, regardless," it's "use the best tools to tell the story."

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Popping in here for a moment (which I hope will not be my last for another two weeks) to ask:

Anyone seen this? (http://bookangst.blogspot.com/2005/05/mad-max-survey-vol-iv-they-lied.html)

Publisher #2 came forward with a larger offer (a two-book deal) and a promise to position Richard’s third book as its lead title—major promotional support whose stated goal wasn’t just to break Richard out but to establish him as a brand-name author and get him “on the lists.” Given the change underway at his original publisher, the move to Publisher #2 seemed a no-brainer.

As it turned out, it nearly ruined his career.(Found via Maud's Blog (http://maudnewton.com/blog/index.php?p=5122).)

In summary, as best as I can make out: Supportive small publisher changes editors at the same time as big name publisher comes a-callin'. Our Hero switches ships. Big name publisher soon after signs a big name author and thenceforth fails to keep promises made to Our Hero when it had come a-wooin'.

At first blush it sounds similar in tone to other "my publisher done me wrong" stories that I've come to view with suspicion. But I don't have enough experience to always spot when the author's complaint is or is not valid, when the author's story reveals missteps he could have avoided, &etc. Which sort of Sad Sad Story is this? The sort with which we should sympathize and from which take warning? Or the sort to which we should respond with sardonic reference to the smallest of violins? (Or a little from both columns?)

[E.G. Gammon]

Jim,

I just started writing my first novel (that's not linked to my novel series) and I had a question. The story is about the effect magic has on a group of teenagers (I told you a little more about it in a PM I sent you a few days ago). I want to start the story with all of the friends together and then once I get to Chapter 5 or 6, I want to devote the focus of one chapter to one character, continuing this format, with each character getting their own chapter (the most important characters would get 2 or 3). Then by the last few chapters, I want to shift the focus back on them as a group as the story is resolved. Would it be ok to do something like this? I don't want to shift points of view, just the focus of the story. I guess the primetime show "Lost" would be a good example of how the structure of my novel would be, because each episode has most of the characters, but the focus is only on one of them.

E.G.

[James D. Macdonald]

Would it be ok to do something like this?

I don't know why not. Like anything else, it all depends on how well you do it.

Try. If it isn't working, you do something else in the next draft.

Now write your book... you won't know what you have until you reach The End.

[James D. Macdonald]

At first blush it sounds similar in tone to other "my publisher done me wrong" stories that I've come to view with suspicion.

It's a fact: Bad things happen to good authors. Bad things happen to good books. Don't for a minute think this business is all fun and games and good times.

We don't know all the factors (was his next book part of a series?) or who the publishers were. Given what we know: The author made a good decision. With his editor departing there's a good chance his next book would have taken a hit in any case.

It sounds like the new publisher took a major hit in the Cash-on-Hand sweepstakes when they signed the big name. No one had expected that when they signed "Richard."

Not every bet you make will win. Your job, on the business side of writing, is to make the best bet you can with the information you have.

No one says you have to be a one-publisher author. I publish around. I know that any publisher out there can, at any moment, go crazy, melt down, go into a tailspin, or suddenly decide to switch focus.

As an author, remember what Granny told you: Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

No one says you have to be a one-publisher author. I publish around. I know that any publisher out there can, at any moment, go crazy, melt down, go into a tailspin, or suddenly decide to switch focus.

As an author, remember what Granny told you: Don't put all your eggs in one basket.I think this is probably the best lesson to take away from "Richard"'s story (knowing as little as we do about the details). Thank you for your insight.

[astonwest]

Incidentally -- I use a shaving mug, and got my younger son a shaving mug (with a nice badger-bristle brush) for Christmas.
Me, too...although mainly because a cousin of mine sells handmade soap, and so I got the mug, brush, and shaving soap for free...

[Stephanie76]

Jim,

I have just started up writing again (aside from screenwriting), and was very pleased to find your thread. I am trying to read as many of the posts I can, and find them extremely helpful. I am currently on page 8. :)

Go ahead laugh, I know I have lots to catch up on.

I have many questions, which I'm sure will be answered as I mosey my way through the posts, but I'm curious about one thing.

(Forgive me if I'm rehashing an old subject)

In screenwriting there is a specific structure one must follow, a blueprint of sorts to keep us on track. We know exactly where to put every single piece of the puzzle-of course it's up to our highly creative minds to make all the pieces fit, but you get the idea.

Of course screenwriting and writing a novel are at seperate ends of the road.
For one a novel can be as long as you want it to be and in a screenplay you have between 90 and 120 pages to tell your story and that's it.

So, my question is....(I'm going to try to word this so I don't make myself out to be a complete amateur-although, I may fail) :o

When you write a novel, is there a structure one should have in mind? Do you say "okay, I'm not going to exceed x amount of pages, or x amount of chapters, and in so and so chapter that's going to be my middle point, and in this chapter I'm going to have a major plot point, or in this chapter I'm going to reveal this."

Or do you just get to it, and worry about everything else later?

Steph

[jules]

From what I've seen around here before, most of us tend to work with a particular target length in mind (usually about 100k words, but varying by genre), but do not tend to have fixed points in mind (at least during planning stages) for when in the story major events occur. We let them happen in the outlining phase (for those who do it, or first draft for those who don't) and then correct the pacing afterwards if it feels wrong. But, certainly, many of us are always aware that the length of the novel makes a big difference to how easy it is to sell.

OTOH, if your story won't conform to those length expectations, it may just be better to write it and accept that the novel you have isn't going to be easy to sell.

[James D. Macdonald]

When you write a novel, is there a structure one should have in mind? Do you say "okay, I'm not going to exceed x amount of pages, or x amount of chapters, and in so and so chapter that's going to be my middle point, and in this chapter I'm going to have a major plot point, or in this chapter I'm going to reveal this."

Some people certainly do it that way.


Or do you just get to it, and worry about everything else later?

And others do it that way.

"There are nine-and-sixty ways of constructing tribal lays
And every single one of them is right."

-- Rudyard Kipling (In the Neolithic Age)

You'll discover when writing novels that the master rule is "What works for you?"

No one but you reads your first draft.

[alaskamatt17]

No one but you reads your first draft.

And I'm thankful for it.

[triceretops]

How would you display in print, a radio show in a car, and the occupants are listening to it? Double indent non-quote? Italics? Regular indent quote? Upper case quotes? Or any of these combinations? My gawd, I forgot how I used to do it. I just finished a T.V. annoucement, via a politician in all upper case. I'm wondering if I have to change this to conform to the way it is more commonly done.

Thanks in Advance

Tri

[E.G. Gammon]

Jim,

Tomorrow starts my strict writing schedule and I am trying to balance my time between my first novel and my novel series. I am devoting 2 hours to my first novel (which is going quite well so far) and 2 hours to my novel series. I had a question about organizing the complex story of my novel series.

Everyone here knows how complex the story is. I've said it a million times - 80 characters, seven novels, 2 umbrella stories and tons of subplots. Should I spend all of my time constructing a detailed outline of the entire story and then begin once it's done, working from that? Or should I write each "scene" and then worry later what order they should be in? I want to construct an outline because the story is so complex but if I spend - say - 2 months doing it, without writing any real passages that will end up in the book, will that seem like I'm procrastinating? Could I write passages WHILE constructing the outline?

I have everything under control with my first novel, it's just figuring a way to organize my novel series that has be backed in a corner right now.

E.G.

[Liam Jackson]

E.G., I've a feeling you're going to receive several different answers to your question regarding outlining.

I'm not the most qualified person to hand out advice about outlines, as I didn't work from one when I wrote the Offspring series. A friend and mentor gave me hell about that, and showed me how to storyboard (semi-fancy term for a kind of "outline") using a simple excel spreadsheet. I've used the method since then, and it's made a significant difference in story management. The document is spare, consisting of a cast list, a few character notes and settings for scenes arranged by chapter.

Outlines are fluid, living documents. I can redirect fire on the run, modifying the document as the spirit(s) moves me. If I experience a sudden flash of inspiration in the middle of a chapter, a change that causes me to deviate from the outline, I keep writing. I'll modify the outline accordingly at the end of my BIC period.

So, it is possible to write as you build/work from your outline. I've also found an outline is most useful when I hit a wall or mid-book blues. Others may have a different take on the issue.

[maestrowork]

EG, from what I've read here and your other thread (novel series), I sense that you're too worried about the due process of writing novels (and in your case, the "series"). I really do recommend you LET GO and just write. There's no right or wrong way, only the "best" way for "you." And until you sit down and start writing and trying different things out, you never will know what is "best" for you. Maybe you need an outline; maybe you don't. Maybe you need to plan out everything; maybe you don't. Maybe you need a stand-alone first novel; maybe you don't.

But until you actually LET GO and just get into your world and write, you will never find out for sure.

Try not to overanalyze everything and just do the BIC.

I think I know where you are at this point -- you're stalling. :) Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I do think you're stalling. You're probably scared sh!tless because like you said, this is a complex story with over 80 characters, blah blah blah. I felt the same way with my current WIP -- I felt it was too "epic" for me to handle. I wanted to write it VERY MUCH, but I had a hard time deciding where to start and how to proceed. Mind you, I already have one novel completed and getting published. But I was stalling. It took me months to actually BIC and start writing. Once I did, it got easier and at times I still stall, thinking it's still too big for me. But it's all just distraction. Something to convince myself that "I may not be able to do this..."

I hope I'm wrong. But if I'm right, then my advice is just go for it. Worry about everything else later.

[katiemac]

Egg, here's something you might like to try.

Start writing. Immediately. BIC, and just go for it.

Then, after you've spent your two hours, take another ten or fifteen minutes to mock up an outline of what you've already written. Very short, one of two lines per scene.

Start all over again the next day.

Let's say, perhaps, ten days down the road you go, "Sh!t! I forgot Carol was supposed to kill Susan in scene 405," you can simply refer to the outline and make a note on it to write the scene during your second draft.

Doing this not only gives you something to map your brain out, reviewing it at the end of the writing session will line you up for the next day's work.

[jlawrenceperry]

Re: Outlining

Do you have an idea of what is supposed to happen throughout this epic plot? If you know where it's already going, it helps to at least write down what you know so far, so you don't forget. If the term OUTLINING freaks you out, then call it WRITING IT DOWN SO I DON'T FORGET.

I have found that once I start writing out the plot, my characters come alive within the story, and it really opens up the possibilities. I just sketch out the basics. "This stuff happens, and this person goes here" and voila I have my plot, and then I have bones to put meat on.

What Liam says is absolutely true. Your Outline is flexible. You made it, therefore you have the right to change it whenever and however you want. My outlines don't protest too much, so I do not fear them.

In the other case, if you really don't have a clue where you want to go, then I would follow this advice:
Start writing. Immediately. BIC, and just go for it.

Then, after you've spent your two hours, take another ten or fifteen minutes to mock up an outline of what you've already written. Very short, one or two lines per scene.

[James D. Macdonald]

Everyone here knows how complex the story is.

There is no "right" way or "wrong" way to write. But all this thinking about writing isn't writing.

Here is your assignment: Go to lunch today at a Chinese restaurant. It must be a place with paper placemats.

Order hot and sour soup. (Hot and sour soup is Very Important to the process.)

While eating the hot and sour soup, draw a flowchart for your novel on the back of the placemat. It must all fit on that one placemat.

Take that placemat home with you, and stick it up next to your computer.

Don't post on line anywhere, for any reason, until you've written chapter one.

Then you can come back and tell us how it went.

[maestrowork]

Wow, UJ, that's what I did wrong! I ordered Wonton soup instead! :Hail:

[Roger J Carlson]

Hey, that gives me an idea for another program: Adverb Eliminator. It'll work like this:

Make a copy of your file
Turn on Track Changes (MS Word of course)
Check every word to see if it ends in ly
If so, delete it
When done, you can go back and scroll through the deletions and either accept or reject it.
Could work. Thanks, Jim.Well, I did it. I wrote the Adverb Eliminator. It works pretty much as outlined above, but with the addition of an Exclude List for words that end in "ly" but aren't adverbs. For those who don't use (or are afraid of) Track Changes, I also wrote the Adverb Highlighter which does the same thing but just highlights the adverbs instead.

By the way UJ, I ran it against my 125,000 novel and came up with 1815 adverbs. That's a lot, but not nearly 25,000.

You can find them here:
http://www.rogerjcarlson.com/WritingHelp/TechTips.html

[alaskamatt17]

Roger J. Carlson, I tried your program and I liked it. I had many more adverbs than I thought, though the program did catch a few stray -ly words that weren't adverbs. Even so, I was over 700 -- far too many for a 106,000 word novel.

[James D. Macdonald]

'Kay, Roger --

I hope that's giving you some insight into your writing.

Next -- look for empty phrases and words. Things that don't move the story forward. What we sometimes call "hesitation marks." "It seemed to him," and "as it were," and "And" or "But."

Eventually you may need to rip out a sub plot.

Or, if everything is a piece of the finished puzzle, no parts left over, no gaps, nothing forced -- you may need to admit that you wrote a 125,000 word book. If that's the case, ship it off and start work on your next.

[Roger J Carlson]

...though the program did catch a few stray -ly words that weren't adverbs. Yeah, it'll do that. Just copy and paste those words into the Exclude list in the program document and it will skip those next time.

[Roger J Carlson]

'Kay, Roger --

I hope that's giving you some insight into your writing. It does.

Next -- look for empty phrases and words. Things that don't move the story forward. What we sometimes call "hesitation marks." "It seemed to him," and "as it were," and "And" or "But." My characters tend to start a lot of sentences with "Well,...".

Eventually you may need to rip out a sub plot.

Or, if everything is a piece of the finished puzzle, no parts left over, no gaps, nothing forced -- you may need to admit that you wrote a 125,000 word book. If that's the case, ship it off and start work on your next.It think the bulk of my word reduction will come from exposition that my beta readers thought was boring. (I thought it was fascinating.) I guess I was "thinking out loud" when I was building my fantasy world. I believe I can remove most if not all of it without hurting the story.

[James D. Macdonald]

"Skip the boring bits" is excellent advice.

"What with this-and-that some five years passed...."

[jdparadise]

For those who don't use (or are afraid of) Track Changes, I also wrote the Adverb Highlighter which does the same thing but just highlights the adverbs instead.


Clever, Roger!

Here's the reason I'd recommend going with the highlighter instead: a lot of times, adverbs (and adjective chain) are used because the precise word isn't known at the time, or doesn't come to mind, or doesn't exist. Eliminating the adverb doesn't fix that problem--the remaining text is still imprecise, just non-modified.

Instead, what I'd recommend is highlighting the adverbs (and, as UJ said, the "empty phrases" and then going through and trying to figure out what you were getting at when you used the adverb or empty phrase in the first place.

For similar purposes, another good pattern to look for would be [adjective], [adjective] or [adjective] [adjective], but w/o putting an entire dictionary into the macro that'd be much harder to figure out.

Also, "[of/in/outside/(etc.)] [the/his/her/(etc.)]" is another good one to look for--I've occasionally found chains of three or more prepositional phrases in my writing, and the effect on the reader can be quite yicky.

Of course, any of these can be valid. But they're worth examining before eliminating.

HTH!

-j

[Roger J Carlson]

Clever, Roger!

Here's the reason I'd recommend going with the highlighter instead: a lot of times, adverbs (and adjective chain) are used because the precise word isn't known at the time, or doesn't come to mind, or doesn't exist. Eliminating the adverb doesn't fix that problem--the remaining text is still imprecise, just non-modified.Thanks.

Either way, you need to use judgment. The eliminator just marks them for deletion and you have to decide. But I was surprised with my own writing just how many could just be deleted.

For similar purposes, another good pattern to look for would be [adjective], [adjective] or [adjective] [adjective], but w/o putting an entire dictionary into the macro that'd be much harder to figure out.Sure. The "ly" thing is easy to figure out. That's the only reason I could do it. If Microsoft can't develop a decent grammar checker with all of its resources, what chance have I?

Also, "[of/in/outside/(etc.)] [the/his/her/(etc.)]" is another good one to look for--I've occasionally found chains of three or more prepositional phrases in my writing, and the effect on the reader can be quite yicky.I'm quite fond of long strings of prepositional phrases myself. Hmmm...a prepositional phrase highlighter...

[alaskamatt17]

Prepositional phrases don't pose as much of a problem for me as adverbs and forms of "to be." I'm editing my second novel by hand now, but as soon as I finish the massive overhaul I'll plug it into Word for an adverb trim. I'm sure it needs it.

[katee]

"Skip the boring bits" is excellent advice.

"What with this-and-that some five years passed...."

It sure is - I used this technique to skip over the boring bit in the scene I was stuck on. I am sure its tedium was the main reason I got stuck. And, if it was boring to write, how excruciating would it have been to read?

With the time thing, I didn't even skip 5 years - I skipped about 30 minutes. I ended up with a shorter, snappier scene where the important story elements weren't buried beneath what would have been a really dull conversation.

I'm now over 20k and back in the swing of things (good) though have been a naughty BICer this week (bad).

[Roger J Carlson]

Prepositional phrases don't pose as much of a problem for me as adverbs and forms of "to be." I'm editing my second novel by hand now, but as soon as I finish the massive overhaul I'll plug it into Word for an adverb trim. I'm sure it needs it.What do others think? I'm considering a Preposition Highlighter (prepositional phrases are a lot harder), but is is worth it? If so, should I highlight ALL prepositions or just the most common ones? I was thinking of: in, on, into, over, under, to, at, by, for, from, of, off, up, down, near, past, outside, inside, towards, around, among, along, between, beside, below. (I suppose people could add their own or delete some if they wanted.)

The real question is: would it be useful?

[James D. Macdonald]

At some point in the process there's no substitute for standing in your living room and reading the whole thing aloud, beginning to end.

[jdparadise]

What do others think? I'm considering a Preposition Highlighter (prepositional phrases are a lot harder), but is is worth it?
The real question is: would it be useful?

If it'd be useful to you, and it wouldn't cut into your writing time, why not? If you've written your adverb highlighter sufficiently broadly, the preposition bits might be easy to plug into it... hee. I was going to describe it, but why bother when I can just code it? :) Check your PM; I've stuck the code there for you. If anyone else wants it, let me know here or in PM.

[alaskamatt17]

I don't think a preposition highlighter would be as useful. When you read through your work -- which you should do two or three times with each story anyways -- it's a lot easier to notice convoluted prepositional phrases than it is to notice adverbs.

[triceretops]

Just wanted to thank the person who brought up the "was" and passive voice problem. I'm 65,000 words into my WIP, and have found a plethora of passive voice problems. Wish I would have caught this before. But then again, it would have interupted that white-hot flow (ten pages a day). I'll contend with it in the major rewrite when all is set to ink.

Now, you never told (anybody) me how to write a radio converstation on a page. Just like regular dialogue? Caps? Italics? Thanks for any answer on this.

Triceratops

[alaskamatt17]

I would use italics for the radio conversation, but it's really up to you. You're a writer, you have artistic license.

[dink]

Pardon my ignorance, but could someone explain to me what a 'run-on sentence' is? I thought I knew. I was wrong.

[jlawrenceperry]

Pardon my ignorance, but could someone explain to me what a 'run-on sentence' is? I thought I knew. I was wrong.

Pardon my ignorance but could someone explain to me what a 'run-on sentence' is I thought I knew I was wrong?

or

It was a dark and stormy night, the shutters were flapping against the siding of the house, the fire in the fireplace burned like a fire, casting smoke upward into the tubular chimney pipes encased in brick, while the hot chocolate was hot and choclatey in the mug that Jane Seymour held in her lily-white fingers as she spoke to me in her warm, soft, choclatey British accent whilst they attempted to film a commercial for a skin-care product with her children, who were now climbing all over the sofa and trying to beat me with toy lightsabers (the one kid's lightsaber was blue, and the other had a red one), and I think they were reenacting the duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin on the volcanic planet of Mustafar from Star Wars: Episode III, Revenge of the Sith, and I think I was the personification of the dark side while their mother was the personification of the choclatey good side.

Now that is a run-on sentence!

(As well as a choclatey-good plot premise)

[Trapped in amber]

Jlawrenceperry, I can see that there is something wrong in the examples you give, but I'm not entirely sure what:o. It seems to be to do with punctuation, lack of commas, full stops e.t.c. Is that right?

[jlawrenceperry]

Yes, that's part of it. But also because in one sentence I have tried to encapsulate a dozen or so ideas. Best to have one or two ideas per sentence.

Plus when I said the fire burned like a fire... well, that's a useless simile. There's also passive voice lurking about.

So, again, with feeling:

It was a dark and stormy night. The shutters flapped against the siding of the house while smoke billowed from the chimney. Jane Seymour held a mug of hot chocolate in her lily-white fingers as she spoke to me in her warm British accent. A crew attempted to film a commercial for a skin-care product with Jane and her two children, who were now climbing all over the sofa and trying to beat me with toy lightsabers. One of the lightsabers was blue, and the other red. I think they reenacted the duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin on the volcanic planet of Mustafar, from Star Wars: Episode III, Revenge of the Sith. I was the personification of the dark side while their mother was the personification of the choclatey good side.

[dink]

Okay, I think I've got it now. :)

My original understanding was that a run-on sentence was more like your first example, where the second sentence carried on from the first without any punctuation break. Two sentences incorrectly glued together.

I wouldn't have described the second example as a run-on sentence -- merely bad writing -- because all the different ideas did seem to follow on from each other with some semblance of correct punctuation and grammar (even though it was patently bad). But I've seen that kind of thing described as a run-on sentence and not really understood why.

I see now that it's like a semibreve (whole-note) rest. It can either mean no music for the value of a semibreve, or it can mean no music for the length of a bar.

I understand now. Thank you.

[black winged fighter]

Not that I condone this, but there are a few rare exeptions to the 'no run-ons rule.'
For instance, Hemingway used run-ons in 'A Farewell to Arms' to emphasize his MC's thoughts, and I think 'On the Road' by Kerouac used the same type of endless sentences. So not all run-ons are evil, but they must have a significance to the overall WIP.

[jules]

It was a dark and stormy night, the shutters were flapping against the siding of the house, the fire in the fireplace burned like a fire, casting smoke upward into the tubular chimney pipes encased in brick, while the hot chocolate was hot and choclatey in the mug that Jane Seymour held in her lily-white fingers as she spoke to me in her warm, soft, choclatey British accent whilst they attempted to film a commercial for a skin-care product with her children, who were now climbing all over the sofa and trying to beat me with toy lightsabers (the one kid's lightsaber was blue, and the other had a red one), and I think they were reenacting the duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin on the volcanic planet of Mustafar from Star Wars: Episode III, Revenge of the Sith, and I think I was the personification of the dark side while their mother was the personification of the choclatey good side.

I read a novel once that had several sentences very similar to this one, except that they went on for an average of about two pages. Yeuch.

[triceretops]

Our very own ZaZ writes like that, and I think it bodes very well for satire and humorous passages. Kind of a "hold you under the water until you can't breath" style, that does have it's place.

I'm starting to object to this mass condemnation of the word "was." It cannot be eliminated entirely--not from my script at any rate--but I've certainly pulled a lot of excess "was" words from my work. I thumbed through a dozen novels and that damn word is everywhere! However, when I do my first massive re-write, I will look for that pesky devil just to see how I've used it, or abused it.

I swear, every time I see a new writing rule in this forum it serves as a major block and inhibitor to me LOL. I'm one of those fly-by-my-pants writers who has to get it all down. I think I'll return when the book is done. Must...leave...somehow...

Tri



Tri

[reph]

My original understanding was that a run-on sentence was more like your first example, where the second sentence carried on from the first without any punctuation break. Two sentences incorrectly glued together.
That's almost what I understand a run-on sentence to be. It's also called a comma splice. There's punctuation in the middle, but it's a comma where a period belongs.

[Medievalist]

I'm starting to object to this mass condemnation of the word "was." It cannot be eliminated entirely--not from my script at any rate--but I've certainly pulled a lot of excess "was" words from my work. I thumbed through a dozen novels and that damn word is everywhere! However, when I do my first massive re-write, I will look for that pesky devil just to see how I've used it, or abused it.

I swear, every time I see a new writing rule in this forum it serves as a major block and inhibitor to me LOL.

I'd rather, personally, that in terms of "how to write," we'd speak in terms of "protocols," rather than rules. I'm not saying "throw grammar to the hounds," but was is useful. It's a problem, like anything else, when used to excess. Was, as people have said, is often a sign that the sentence contains a strong verb that's been disguised or masked by "was." Was isn't evil, in itself, nor does the use of was automatically create passive voice.

As I keep saying, write, think, write some more, and then revise.

[Medievalist]

That's almost what I understand a run-on sentence to be. It's also called a comma splice. There's punctuation in the middle, but it's a comma where a period belongs.

I don't want to bog people down in nomenclature, but:

The large category is the run-on sentence, also known as the "fused" sentence. A run-on contains clauses that could stand alone but have been "run together," or "fused" into a long rattling mess without the correct punctuation.

A comma splice is a specific type of run-on sentence in which two independent clauses are "spliced" together with a comma. This won't do; the comma is not a joiner, it's a separator. There are several options to choose from in revising such sentences:

1. Recast it entirely
2. Replace the comma with a semi-colon (if the syntax and the semantics suggest the two clauses would be effectively linked in both meaning and punctuation)
3. Use a period instead of a comma, making any other small adjustments necessary to create two separate sentences.

[Ken Schneider]

Hi Jack, nice to see you over here, how is the 200 hundred author thing going?


Anyway, where can I post a couple pages of work for those who know to look at it.

I'm looking for your comments as to clarity of scene, and, anything else that stands out.

Thank uncle Jim, and gang.

[Liam Jackson]

Changling, if you care to post the piece in the Share Your Work forum, I'm sure several would be glad to have a look.

[Ken Schneider]

Changling, if you care to post the piece in the Share Your Work forum, I'm sure several would be glad to have a look.

Will do, if I can find it.

Thanks Liam.

Found it, posted in mystery.

[gp101]

Not all run-on sentences are created equal (-ly).

Too many of them in a row annoy the crap out of me (what a visual), but the occasional run-on for stylistic purposes works nicely. The authors I've read that use them the best do so at precise intervals (usually in specific characters' POV, not all of them). To me, it makes the the particular passage more varied in rhythm and conveys a less hectic pace. Whereas a bunch of back-to-back simple sentences convey a heightened event. Like carb's in your diet, best used in moderation.

Elmore Leonard uses them frequently (and brilliantly, if you like comical crime stories like I do).

[Roger J Carlson]

If it'd be useful to you, and it wouldn't cut into your writing time, why not? If you've written your adverb highlighter sufficiently broadly, the preposition bits might be easy to plug into it... hee. I was going to describe it, but why bother when I can just code it? :) Check your PM; I've stuck the code there for you. If anyone else wants it, let me know here or in PM.Well, I completed the Preposition Highlighter. But instead of writing my own, I adapted Jon's. (Thanks, Jon.) His routine checks the number of prepositions in a sentence and a paragraph and only highlights those above a pre-defined threshold. I just bundled it into my standard package which gives the user the ability to choose threshold and color.

It's on my website here:
http://www.rogerjcarlson.com/WritingHelp/TechTips.html

[jlawrenceperry]

I read a novel once that had several sentences very similar to this one, except that they went on for an average of about two pages. Yeuch.

Yes, and I imagine it was The Sword of Shannara by Terry Brooks.... Talk about a Yeuch book.

"OMG, what is that shiny cylindrical object that casts a faint white light?" Middle Earth grows out of a Nuclear Holocaust? Yikes.

[jules]

Actually, no. It was "Day of the Dolphin", I forget the author's name, a translation from the original French novel into English.

A *very* odd book, in many ways.

[AnneMarble]

Not that I condone this, but there are a few rare exeptions to the 'no run-ons rule.'
For instance, Hemingway used run-ons in 'A Farewell to Arms' to emphasize his MC's thoughts, and I think 'On the Road' by Kerouac used the same type of endless sentences. So not all run-ons are evil, but they must have a significance to the overall WIP.

In one of his books on writing (I think it was How to Write Best-Selling Fiction), Dean R. Koontz recommended using run-on sentences very sparingly in some types of action or suspense scenes. (IIRC he recommended gnerally using shorter sentences in action and suspense scenes.)

He showed a great example from one of his stories. (The scene involved a character's POV after he got shot.) Of course, I tried the same technique in the suspense novel I was writing at the time, and it ended up sucking. ;)

[Christine N.]

Didn't The Simpsons use that thing for one of their Halloween shows? Where the dolpins start walking on land and shove all the humans into the ocean? I know the skit was called Day of the Dolphin. LOL

[Liam Jackson]

The Sword of Shannara may have been a "yeuch" book, but it was the first fanatsy to break into the NYT bestseller list in 1977. (I think all fantasy writers may owe Terry a Happy Holiday card this year. Other writers reading TSoS with a practice eye may or may not agree that his style was frustrating, but a million or so readers liked it well enough. It still sells today.

The last time I read through TSOS, perhaps six months ago, I tried to ignore any preceived weaknesses. I was more interested in what he did correctly. Had to be something. :)

[stranger]

The Sword of Shannara may have been a "yeuch" book, but it was the first fanatsy to break into the NYT bestseller list in 1977. (I think all fantasy writers may owe Terry a Happy Holiday card this year. Other writers reading TSoS with a practice eye may or may not agree that his style was frustrating, but a million or so readers liked it well enough. It still sells today.

The last time I read through TSOS, perhaps six months ago, I tried to ignore any preceived weaknesses. I was more interested in what he did correctly. Had to be something. :)

So what was it that made Sword of Shannara so successful? I barely managed to finish it. I guess it was action packed.

[Roger J Carlson]

So what was it that made Sword of Shannara so successful? I barely managed to finish it. I guess it was action packed.Basically, people wanted more Tolkien and Brooks delivered--a little too closely for many people's tastes. Some bookstores refused to sell it because it was seen as a rip-off of Tolkien. I don't think Brooks can be credited with creating the fantasy boom. I just think he was one of the first to exploit it. The market was already there waiting for more.

[gogoshire]

Didn't The Simpsons use that thing for one of their Halloween shows? Where the dolpins start walking on land and shove all the humans into the ocean?

Absolutely! Halloween 2000, in fact.

"I'm not gonna let a few hoop-jumping tuna-munchers push me around!" -Homer

[AnneMarble]

Basically, people wanted more Tolkien and Brooks delivered--a little too closely for many people's tastes. Some bookstores refused to sell it because it was seen as a rip-off of Tolkien.

Wow. That would annoy me so much. Sometimes I want to read yet another rip-off of Tolkien. ;)

I don't think Brooks can be credited with creating the fantasy boom. I just think he was one of the first to exploit it. The market was already there waiting for more.
I read Brooks' book on writing, and I seem to remember that he admitted he was very lucky. There's some interesting stuff in that book, particularly about some of the revisions he went through on his second book and about his experiences writing a couple of movie adaptations.

I started to reread The Sword of ShaNaNa recently because it was available for my Palm. At first, I read a while and gave up. Later, I started reading it again (for various reasons). Once it got past the beginning, the pace really sped up. I remember reading my Palm in bed one night, during a crucial scene, going click click click click with the little "page down" button because I wanted to find out what happened. When you can make readers want to find out what happens, you can get away with a lot.

Some readers think The Sword of ShaNaNa was his only good book, but most of his fans seem to prefer his later ones. Brooks himself agrees that he got better with his later books.

[zizban]

Elfstones, the second one, IMO, is the better book, one of the best he's written.

[Liam Jackson]

Anne mentioned Brooks said he was "lucky." I don't doubt that he said it for a second. I do doubt very much that luck was entirely responsible for this other 21 bestsellers. I'm extremely doubtful that luck has anything to do with the fact that TSoS continues to sell well thirty years later and, still spawns the occasional new Shannara story.

Sounds like I'm a Brooks fan? Hardly. I do, however, appreciate his success. I've read the Shannara series, as well as the comedic fantasy Magic Kingdom for Sale and the Word and the Void, his entry into the dark fantasy genre. In all but two instances, I bogged down in the first couple of chapters. He does, however, have a knack for eventually finding a good pace. However, I believe his greatest talent is that of characterization. The Druid Allanon, Walker Boh, Coglin, Par, Coll, and Flick all found fans early on.

The same with Landover (Magic Kingdom) and its characters. Magic Kingdom was recently optioned by Universal. It may never make it to the screen, but such a film would be interesting <grins>

Just my fifty cents

[brokenfingers]

I read Brooks' Sword of Shannara when I was a wee lad and was on a serious Tolkien kick. Even then, I enjoyed it but thought of it as basically a generic version of LOTR.

When he came out with the rest of the series I couldn't even be bothered to read those.

Recently I noticed that Brooks was achieving bestseller numbers with his latest incarnations of his Shannara series and wanted to investigate so I bought a 3-in-1 novel containing the first three in the series to refresh me and get me started.

I could not venture further than the first few chapters into the first book. There is no denying that he is a talented writer who can write very well but writing well is only half the battle.

The story sucks in my opinion. It was totally cliche, unrealistic - by which I mean the characters didn't seem realistic to me - they were either overly wholesome goody-goodies or the bad guys were super-evil, and predictable.

And it was just too much like a pale carbon copy of LOTR. It struck me almost like well-written fan fiction.

Unfortunately, nowadays my time is so limited that I have a massive backlog of books to be read so I have written them off.

I'm tempted to just get one of the later ones but I absolutely hate jumping into a series in the middle. But like Liam said - there is definitely something to be said for somebody who consistently hits the bestseller lists with Fantasy.

Does anybody know if the storylines improve with his later works?

[AnneMarble]

Anne mentioned Brooks said he was "lucky." I don't doubt that he said it for a second. I do doubt very much that luck was entirely responsible for this other 21 bestsellers. I'm extremely doubtful that luck has anything to do with the fact that TSoS continues to sell well thirty years later and, still spawns the occasional new Shannara story.
It might be the adventure element. In his book on writing, Brooks said that he was inspired by the old-fashioned adventure writers. He admitted that he doesn't read much fantasy (sigh). But then again, it seems what he wants to do is tell adventure stories.

Maybe that's why he is able to gather fans who aren't typical fantasy fans. There are probably a lot of people reading fantasy who wouldn't like most fantasies, but do like adventure stories. In today's market, unless you like reading about high tech stuff or reading Westerns or "Executioner" novels, a lot ofthe best traditional adventure writing is found in the fantasy section. Unless I'm missing something, where is today's Scarlet Pimpernel or Scaramouche?
:Shrug:

[Liam Jackson]

Broken, I don't think the storylines have improved very much, though his style seems smoother. In '77, TSoS was a really nice story. But over decades, genre readers grow more sophisticated and savvy. I think it may have taken Terry a while to figure that out and I think he does a better job of writing to his audience, these days. The current Shannara installments have their moments, but the line is growing stale IMHO.

The storyline for Word and the Void had tremendous potential but was left unexplored. Brook's care and attention to characters has kept me coming back for more lessons. I don't generally buy his work for entertainment.

I will say this for Terry: Every once in a great while, he writes a passage that leaves me wishing like hell I had written it. One such example is the prolouge in Angel Fire East. That's about the highest compliment I can pay to a writer.

[jlawrenceperry]

From Sometimes the Magic Works, I recall that it was Lester DelRey that really pushed the concept of the Sword of Shannara. It was less Brooks exploiting Tolkien's popularity than DelRey himself. And I'm not indicting him for it. I think it was brilliant. I would use the term capitalizing instead.

My biggest beef with it is that it uses Tolkien's trappings as conventions. As though all Wizards should have the same attitude and mode of speech as Gandalf. As though all human warriors should either be exactly like Boromir, or Aragorn, or a cross of both.

TSoS is not plagiarism, and not parody, but it fits in there somewhere. I made it through past halfway, and found it to be, if I could say something nice, juvenile at best.

The thing is, after reading the book he became my favorite Author personally, though not professionally. I genuinely like the guy. A whole lot. It pains me to think the way I do about his writing. (He also POV hops constantly)

Terry Goodkind, on the other hand, is way a plagiarist of Robert Jordan--Just read The Stone of Tears. It was published after Jordan was up to book five of his series, and he doesn't merely use parallel, simile, or metaphor--he steals things by name. I don't know how Tom Doherty let his second book come off the press. I won't read through to get to book three to know if someone through down the editorial gauntlet and reigned him in.

[Liam Jackson]

I think Terry took TSoS to DAW, first. They rejected the story and suggested he try Ballentine. Ballentine had just hired Lester Del Rey as the Fantasy editor for the Del Rey imprint. Can't help but wonder what the DAW editor thinks about the TSoS, now.

[jlawrenceperry]

If he were me, he's probably kicking himself about the money, but thanking God about his reputation for not picking CRAP!!! :D

[Roger J Carlson]

If he were me, he's probably kicking himself about the money, but thanking God about his reputation for not picking CRAP!!! :DOh, I doubt that. Today, reputations depend more on how much money you make than the quality of what you produce. I'm not sure it was ever any different.

[jlawrenceperry]

I was kidding.

[Yeshanu]

Whether you love TSoS or not (and I've read it, but it's nowhere near LoTR's quality, and I didn't think so in 1977, either...) you have to agree that Terry and Lester did a service to all of us fantasy fanatics by reviving the genre.

The same with Landover (Magic Kingdom) and its characters. Magic Kingdom was recently optioned by Universal. It may never make it to the screen, but such a film would be interesting <grins>

Oooh! I hope so, as it was quite likely my favourite Terry Brooks book...

[James D. Macdonald]

After The Lord of the Rings got to be Very Popular Indeed (right book at the right time at the right place), readers wanted to repeat the experience they got in reading it. (When readers have a good time with a book they will want to have a good time with another, similar book.)

Up until then, Fantasy as we know it now had been an obscure side room on the great hall of mainstream.

Publishers are the readers' servants. Up popped Lynn Carter who edited the Ballantine Adult Fantasy Series, bringing back into print a hundred years' worth of obscure fiction by eccentric Brits. William Morris, E. R. Eddison, Lord Dunsany, all the rest. Robert E. Howard's Depression-era pulp novels were reprinted. All of it sold very well. Before long everything that vaguely fit had been reprinted, and still the market was still calling. When then market starts calling, lots of folks answer. Pretty soon novels were coming out of desk drawers. Then authors started writing original fantasy novels to fill the vacuum. One of those was The Sword of Shanarra, which, while it wasn't very good, scratched the itch that folks who had loved The Lord of the Rings had developed.

Sturgeon's Law applies. We'll see which novels are still in print a hundred years hence.

[MacAllister]

Not to change the subject...but did ya'll see this (http://bookangst.blogspot.com/2005/05/fine-whine-i-unpublished-writers-rant.html#comments)?

From BookAngst101, posted May 17:Whether or not publishers should have a responsibility to read material submitted to "Dear Slushpile," the reality is that most no longer accept unsolicited manuscripts. If you think this reflects the hard-heartedness of today's market place, you're right: publishers are enormously understaffed relative to yesteryear, which means that there are far fewer sets of eyes per submission than used to be the case... Another reason why your initial focus should be on getting your work to agents: they might actually read it.

This week's inspiring story about a writer discovered on the slush pile (http://bookangst.blogspot.com/2005/05/anatomy-of-career.html#comments)strikes me as the exception that proves the rule--and my guess is that his/her career began perhaps two decades ago.

This was just a general, for-your-additional-entertainment kind of a post. :) We now return you to your Terry Brooks discussion...

[James D. Macdonald]

This was just a general, for-your-additional-entertainment kind of a post. We now return you to your Terry Brooks discussion...

All that's changed is the location of the slush pile. New authors are still coming out of one slush pile or another.

[Mr Underhill]

I read a novel once that had several sentences very similar to this one, except that they went on for an average of about two pages. Yeuch.
For an example of how to do multi-page sentences well, I commend you to Gabriel Garcia-Marquez' Autumn of the Patriarch. The technique is used for specific literary effect, and used brilliantly. As the MC gets older and more senile the sentences get longer and longer, until finally the entire last chapter is one long sentence. And all the while it is completely enthralling. (Partly because you can't find a period at which to stop and put the darn thing down!)

Credit for that particular example also goes to Gregory Rabassa for his translation – it is not an easy feat to manage in English.

[DreamWeaver]

Unless I'm missing something, where is today's Scarlet Pimpernel or Scaramouche? :Shrug:It's being written in Spanish by Arturo Pérez-Reverte, in Las Aventuras del Capitán Alatriste. Five novels and counting. My copy of the first one is a twenty-somethingth edition, I think.

Kris

[Liam Jackson]

I hope your trip went well. Congrats to all and welcome back.

[oswann]

Liam, you just posted the 4000th reply in the thread. Bravo to UJ and all posters.


Os.

[James D. Macdonald]

The trip went fine, Liam. I'm looking forward to hearing from your guy.

[jlawrenceperry]

Saw Episode III of Star wars at Midnight. I was impressed. Disturbing, affecting, beautiful--all of those things. Just FYI.