Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[Crusader]

Accidental inspiration occurs in a world with rough edges. It's those things we didn't really calculate, or quite mean to say, or a blurt, that sometimes says more than it is meant to say.

I think in our desire to be perfect, sometimes we become sterile instead, which is unfortunate. It's the impurities in the water that give it the flavor.

100% agreement--in fact, i wish i'd said all that. =)

But anyway, i simply note that a writer needs to be aware of, and check for, the difference between creative interpretation versus goofing up a key detail.

[Nateskate]

Something sloppy is another matter altogether.

When I used to write songs, I'd find accidental inspiration all of the time. I'd write the song to mean one thing, but in listening, I'd hear another meaning, more profound than intended.

Perhaps some people are prone to metaphorical speech, and subconsciously say things.

[reph]

Perhaps some people are prone to metaphorical speech, and subconsciously say things.

Yes, I believe that. I also believe that ordinary people under stress do the same thing.

Some stories get great power from being metaphors. Shirley Jackson's best ones, for instance.

[maestrowork]

Metaphors are great for conveying concepts, feelings, ideas and sensories. They also help conjuring up images and stimulating our imaginations. However, they're not very effective in telling stories.

[reph]

Maestro, I disagree. Metaphors can be used to great effect in telling stories. For instance, a scene might describe something physical–oh, I don't know, maybe some feature of the landscape–and you wonder why because it seems tangential, but in fact it foreshadows something important about a character. It sets the reader up, unconsciously, for the "real" story.

[maestrowork]

Reph, true, it can be a good device in that sense. But still it's about conveying an idea (something symbolic, for example) or concept -- one that is not apparent to the readers at that time, but clear later on. For straight narration, I prefer simple stuff instead of metaphors. I do use metaphors in symbolic/foreshadowing ways.

[James D Macdonald]

I'm told that this entire bulletin board will migrate to another place sometime in the next two weeks.

We're assured that all posts and forums will remain intact. That this move will be transparent to the users.

Helicopter rotor blades are also transparent to the users. This doesn't help when you walk into one.

If (and I flatter myself to say so) you've found posts in this group worthwhile, now might be a good time to make your local copies.

[ChunkyC]

One thing that will change is the address of the site, the URL. We'll all need to update our links. Keep an eye on the top of the main page, Jenna will likely post the new address there in a week or so, or in Announcements.

[detante]

Maybe we should start a thread in the Water Cooler changes (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm43) forum about the upcoming move?

[ChunkyC]

That's the spot, all right. Jenna might put something there soon, so we should keep a lookout. Also, we mods will in all likelihood head to our respective forums to inform everyone once we have concrete info.

[Lee Tasey]

Dear James,

I just finished the ninth draft of a novel. A big question I have is, How do you know when you're finished? The same is true for short stories. I'm now rewriting a short story collection; every story has been written about twelve times. Are you finished when you can't possibly do anything more to a story? How does it work for you?

Regards,

Lee

[matrix83]

I have a quick question for Uncle Jim. Is there any sort of guideline regarding when to use background description, and when you do, how much? For example, in one scene my character is alone in his apartment waiting for someone.... How much detail should I offer regarding the apartment? Should I give a description of each room, the furniture, the paintings on the wall, etc. The apartment serves no major significance other than as the setting for the scene....thanks.

[detante]

Is there any sort of guideline regarding when to use background description, and when you do, how much?

I'm not Uncle Jim, but I think the amount of background information depends on the type of story you are writing.

If you are writing a milieu story (such as a glamorous Hollywood pot boiler or a high fantasy), you will want to provide a richly detailed background.

If you are writing a character piece, then use the background to reveal character. (Does the character have a "Hang in there baby!" kitty poster, an HR Giger print, or a Van Gogh forgery hanging on the wall?)

If you are focus is an event, then describe the background necessary for the action to take place.

Let your story and audience's expectations be your guide.

[maestrowork]

My own rule of thumb: Do the details enhance the story, or do they distract the readers from it?

Also, are the details necessary? It's always good to paint a vivid picture for the readers, but sometimes it's not necessary if they don't add anything to the story or characterization. If it's a normal log cabin with a fireplace and a rug and this and that, then spare me the details -- least of all where the fireplace is or the physical measurements, etc. Yawn. I know what a log cabin looks like. But if the throw rug is a dead polar bear, or something is really unusual about the place (a water faucet that won't stop dripping... which has something to do with the story), then pick those details and describe them.

Always ask the question: Why do the readers care?

[matrix83]

thanks.....your comments are very helpful....

[macalicious731]

Matrix, a person's apartment can tell a lot about someone's character. Is it in the upper east side, decorated with white couches and curtains, or a downtown dump littered with week old pizza boxes?

The painting might be important - is it a van Gogh or a child's fingerpainting project? The number of rooms might be important, if your character is a single mother in a one bedroom apartment or a single mother in a three bedroom suite with a dining room, kitchen and living room.

[sc211]

One good way to answer your question is to think of a novel with a scene you remember clearly and then go check and see how many of the details were written out and how much came from you.

It wasn't until reading an interview with Orson Scott Card in which he said how poor he is at description that I realized he was right. Take Chapter 2 of Ender's Game - it's a harrowing scene between two brothers and a sister in their home.

But when you read it, all the description is one saying, "come on upstairs," and then mentioning the flat, a bed, a drawer, a doorway, and the sound of a toilet. That's it, except for a mask one of them puts on, like a prop on a bare stage.

Of course, if it's a room that's to be in the whole novel, or you want to define the character better, as said above, then do that - I love those kinds of details. Like the Bruce Lee posters on Travolta's wall in "Saturday Night Fever." Showing how he wants to be seen.

But Card showed me how all you really need, in Al Pacino's words, is "a plank and a passion."

[absolutewrite]

Be not afraid... I promise that I won't take down this board until the new one is fully functional and tested to see that all archives have survived the move.

We'll be fine. If I can't move the archives properly, I won't make the switch.

[James D Macdonald]

Are you finished when you can't possibly do anything more to a story?

There, my friend, is where the art comes in. How does a cook know the soup is ready to serve? There's always something else you can do -- the question is whether there's something else you ought to do.

I can't give a real answer, not having read your story, but ... if it isn't in publishable range after nine to twelve drafts, it probably won't get there.

What kind of changes are you making each time around?

Is there any sort of guideline regarding when to use background description, and when you do, how much?

This is the guideline: The appropriate level of detail is a function of pace.

That is: No one can count the rivets on a moving train. If you want to show that the train isn't moving, start counting rivets.

[detante]

Good example, SC. Card's interview reminded me of "Our Town". Another one that helped me is from Stephen King's On Writing.

"Look--here's a table covered with a red cloth. On it is a cage the size of a small fish aquarium. In the cage is a white rabbit with a pink nose and pink-rimmed eyes. In its front paws is a carrot-stub upon which it is contentedly munching. On its back, clearly marked in blue ink, is a numeral 8.

Do we see the same thing? We'd have to get together and compare notes to make absolutely sure, but I think we do. There will be necessary variations, of course: some receivers [readers] will see a cloth which is turkey red, some will see one that's scarlet, while others may see still other shades. (To color blind receivers, the red tablecloth is the dark gray of cigar ashes.) Some may see scalloped edges, some may see straight ones. Decorative souls may add a little lace, and welcome--my tablecloth is your tablecloth, knock yourself out.

Likewise, the matter of the cage leaves quite a lot of room for individual interpretation. For one thing, it is described in terms of rough comparison, which is useful only if you and I see the world and measure the things in it with similar eyes. It's easy to become careless when making rough comparisons, but the alternative is a prissy attention to detail that takes all the fun out of writing. What am I going to say, "on the table is a cage three feet, six inches in length, two feet in width, and fourteen inches high"? That's not prose, that's an instruction manual. The paragraph also doesn't tell us what sort of material the cage is made of--wire mesh? steel rods? glass?--but does it really matter? We all understand the cage is a see-through medium; beyond that, we don't care. The most interesting thing here isn't even the carrot-munching rabbit in the cage, but the number on its back. Not a six, not a four, not nineteen-point-five. It's an eight. This is what we're looking at, and we all see it."

[maestrowork]

In my novel, The Pacific Between, I spent exactly one paragraph describing an apartment. Nothing more, nothing less. Most one-bedroom apartment look alike, so what was the purpose of the descriptions?

- To put the readers right there. It's okay to say "He steps into her apartment" but if you can give the readers some sense of space and background, it helps them fill in the blanks.

- Characterization. That's the key thing. And not only about the person who lives in that apartment (the posters on the wall, the knick-knacks, the music playing in the background, the clutter, etc.) but also the observer: What he noticed and his thoughts on them.

- Pace. The protagonist is waiting for the girl. So instead of just saying "he waited," I slip into the one-paragraph description, instead of at the very moment when he steps into the apartment. That's the equivalent of a dramatic pause. Then the girl comes out of her room, and the story continues... One paragraph is just about the right time. Now if the girl went into a coma, I might have to slow down the pace some more.

:lol

[matrix83]

At risk of seeming like a "board hog," I have another question I'd like to put out here. To the published novelists present, How have some of your story ideas originated? It would be helpful if some of you could perhaps lead us through this process: how the initial impulse for a story arose and how it was developed into a novel.

I have never introduced myself here. I live in New York and am a professional print journalist. I have had one short story published. Greetings all!

[James D Macdonald]

Lessee -- origins of novels vary. I've used dreams and news stories, mostly. After that it's been playing "what if?" and "if this goes on" and "that's neat" and "who gets hurt?"

Take interesting characters, put them in interesting places, and see what they do.

One specific story idea started with a photo of Soviet troops in full chemical warfare rig. The question came to my mind: How would a 19th century farmer describe those men?

Another one was, suppose Harold Godwinson hadn't gone north to Stamford Bridge, but instead had stayed in the south and defeated William the Bastard? And, incidentally, suppose dragons, ogres, mermaids, unicorns, and giants were all literally real?

After that, it's watching the characters interact.

Usually, I don't start with the beginning. I start with an ending, see what characters are there, then back off, put those characters into a situation and see if they can get to the ending I was thinking of.

[Risseybug]

I'm with Jim. It varies. My first book was pretty much built around the main character. She is the focus of the book. That was how I wanted it - to build a character, then build an adventure for her.

My current WIP was built from a more abstract idea of what I wanted to have happen. The "What if this happened" shool of thought. The main character came into focus later. She's got three friends, none of which I knew anything about until I started to write.
It works differently for different writers, and sometime for the same writer for different works.

[maestrowork]

For my first book, The Pacific Between, I started with some characters, a premise, and an ending. Then I go from there.

[mr mistook]

The idea I have for my second novel is "What if there were no Hitler, and WWII never happened?"

[maestrowork]

Mistook, I think there are quite a few "alternate history" books on that...

Of course, it's also pretty broad -- anything could have happened.

[macalicious731]

Mistook, maestro's right, that is a very prominent idea for novels, but that shouldn't stop you. If you're interested in alternate history, there's a new novel out by Philip Roth called the _Plot Against America_. In case you haven't heard about it yet, it's what happens when Charles Lindbergh beats FDR in the presidential race in 1940, and America slips into a fascist government. Haven't read it yet - just bought it - but it's getting rave reviews.

Maybe something to look into.

[paritoshuttam]

Hi,

Actually I had asked a similar question earlier in this board but sadly, haven't been able to find a satisfying answer to my quandary yet.

In a nutshell, my WIP is a coming-of-age, growth-of-character story. I have learnt, from numerous sources (including this board), that the best place to start a novel is in media res--in the middle of things. That is, when a character is already in a soup, or just about to fall headlong into it.

Now, in my story (I assume this happens in all coming-of-age stories), I want to keep to a simple linear narrative, and show the growth of character from point A to point B. If I start off in the middle, his state of mind has already changed. Showing how he was before the change won't be as effective as showing the progression of change linearly, in my opinion.

Maybe it will help if I give a few details. Simplifying the story considerably, the sequence is:
Boy is lonely; boy meets girl; boy and girl fall in love; then both realise they cannot carry on due to other external (social) reasons; dilemma/conflict is of neither being able to stay together not being able to let go; climax/outburst/breakdown.

Until I come to the point where they get the first hint of trouble (that will endanger their relationship) brewing in the background, there is hardly any conflict. In fact, my objective was to contrast the initial peaceful state with the one of conflict that emerges later on.

So the suggestions I am looking for are on how to make the start more interesting, how to foreshadow the conflict that will arise later, how to start off in the middle of things when actually I am the beginning... I am not sure I want to use flashbacks. Someone had suggested using subplots at the beginning. Is it acceptable to start off with the conflict of a subplot, or will the reader consider it cheating because he had expected it to be the main plot?

Help please.

thanks,
Paritosh.

[James D Macdonald]

Does your protagonist have no problems at all? Not even what to have for supper?

[mr mistook]

I know alternate history's gonna be a bugger. Very heavy on research, and it brings "speculation" literally to an art-form. I do have ideas for where I want things to generally end-up by the end of the 20th century. Specifically, the story will focus on one fictional American city that chaged it all.

The city blossoms in to a cultural mecca in the late 1920's and attracts one forlorn Adolf Hitler who can't find any support for his artistic dreams in Germany. He ends up being a successful, but very benign architecht in America, with no political agenda.

In the modern day, I envision this world where America never truly reached "super power" status, and ends up this kind of happy-go-lucky nation where everybody gets around on trolley cars, and has plenty of leisure time - having reduced the work week to 20 hours.

Meanwhile some other country (haven't decided who yet) is working on a nuclear bomb - a thing the rest of the world thinks of as only science fiction.

And then some plucky guy from a parallel universe (our universe) comes in and saves their happy little world only to return to the planet of endless strife he calls home.

[maestrowork]

In media res doesn't mean you have to start it right in the smack of a major conflict. You can start the book moments/hours before the first conflict. Or like UJ said, the protagonist must have some kind of troubles, even before his world is turned upside down... or something. You said "boy is lonely" -- well, that's a good place to start. What are the boy's problem and he's lonely... what about his home life? No conflict there either?

The thing is, if your story doesn't have conflicts whatsoever for a while, it doesn't sound real and it makes for a dull read. Drama contains conflict -- either internal or external. Especially with a coming of age story, there must be at least intense internal conflicts. The boy is lonely is not a conflict -- but if the boy is lonely and he doesn't want to be anymore, but he doesn't know how to not be lonely and then BOOM! he meets his girl and she doesn't like him... now there's conflict.

Or you can describe a normal day of this lonely boy and his conflicts with his parents... or something. There's ALWAYS conflict between parent and child... and good characterization would bring your characters and story to life and make the readers want to read on...

Another way to "cheat" without falling back on flashback is to state the problem in the first sentence/paragraph, then go on with your "ordinary life" until the proper moment to connect back to the first paragraph... that helps foreshadow what is to happen, and it also keeps suspense/interest high. Something like:


"They say love changes someone in the most unusual way. For Josh, he changed love. And he lived to tell the story.

Josh's parents were the most extraordinarily ordinary people east of the Mississippi..."

Something like that...

[paritoshuttam]

Hi,

You know, that's exactly what I did in my second draft. Changed the starting to say something in an omniscient, look-ahead kind of way. It did make the start better. And then I fall back to the normal linear narrative. The rest of the book is in 3rd person limited POV, so going by the rules, the first one or two paragraphs violate the POV by becoming omniscient. Hope that won't be noticed.

Uncle Jim, I should be able to put in other kinds of conflicts at the beginning, perhaps something to do with his loneliness. One of my questions was whether the conflict hinted at in the beginning can be any conflict of the protagonist, or it has to be the main conflict? If it can be any other conflict, which might get resolved soon, then I can see my way through.

thanks,
Paritosh.

[sc211]

About medias res, one of the things you could do is have the boy and girl start off with a bad situation - she running from a house after an argument, the boy driving off from the scene of a fight, where he'd beat up a friend of his who'd turned on him, and so set himself up for a summer of revenge, and he's driving down this back road at night, and he takes a corner, and there's this girl walking the road, crying...

Then they're bonded together closer, needing each other more, and when all that started at the beginning of the book reaches a boiling point, they're torn apart again.

Crap... that's Romeo and Juliet. Dang - thought I actually had a good one there. But it's true - you can't start off with everything all lovey-dovey 'cause no one will care. Make us want them to be happy by kicking them around at first.

You could also watch some movies on the same theme and see how they begin. "Rebel without a Cause" and that Leelee Sobieski farmland one both have the "new kid in town" theme.

[matrix83]

Here’s a million-dollar question: What separates the Stephen Kings, John Grishams and Danielle Steeles et al from the rest of the pack? How is it that they can repeatedly write books that command such huge readerships, earning them millions and millions and millions of dollars? What are they doing differently? Does it come down to using genre as a starting point to attract the widest audience possible? Plotting? Creating a certain kind of protagonist?

[dannyne330]

Parittoshuttam-

You've been given some good suggestions here. Starting off with a conflict, no matter how trivial, is the best way.
But when do get to showing Boy and Girl having a wonderful time, you can juice it up with key foreshadowing.

Boy and Girl are out having a magical date. The dinner, the wine, the dancing, alas, it was a perfect moment. But like all perfect moments, things could only go downhill from there. Or, little did they know, it would be the last time they'd truly enjoy each other's company.

Obviously you can say it better than that. But when everything seems too 'nice,' as in boring, a little sting on the end like that can yank a reader's attention back into place.

Some may say that's a cheap trick, and I'd have to agree. So only use it sparingly, perhaps just once, where you need it most.

On another note, Uncle Jim, OSC's Ender's Game was mentioned on the previous page. Have you read it? What are your thoughts on the ending? Does it deliver?

Did anyone find it... anti-climatic?

I don't know if anti-climatic is the right word, and I don't want to spoil it for anyone. But it'd be great to hear some thoughts on this particular ending.

I thought it was a great book, however, I felt like it was over before i knew it.

Cheers.

[Silfer Darkflare]

*/Introduction: I have been reading this looong and interestign thread, and after a long while I have finally reached it's end. Hooray, now I can post to it. I am a wannabe-writer, setting up my BIC routine and the like... This thread has been most teaching. Thank you, Uncle Jim.*/

On "Ender's game": I have read that book, and IMHO it is great, and you keep turning pages... and then at the ending, you still turn them, but it is telling, not showing. The author of that book made it a long postscript, like on movies, when text rolls over the ending page telling that "Ten year later, they were all run over by a truck..." or similar. That is one problem, as I wasn't inside the book anymore, but was hearing it told. Second (and main) problem is that the ending does not have any turining points, or climaxes. Same pace, ntohing much happens, zzz...

On the other hand, the ending did create a feeling of despair and hopelessness, and if the author intended that, it did work - a really big "No happy ending here" thing.

[cwfgal]

How have some of your story ideas originated? It would be helpful if some of you could perhaps lead us through this process: how the initial impulse for a story arose and how it was developed into a novel.

For me it's always been a premise that launches the story. I develop the characters and the story lines secondary to that. My first published novel centered around a real-life experience. I'm an ER nurse and I once (several times actually, since he came to our ER often) took care of a Vietnam vet who had shards of metal shrapnel in his brain. He swore those bits of metal had given him the ability to read minds and foresee the future and he used to entertain the ER staff with his "predictions." He was a bit of a mental case but one day he did "predict" something that turned out to be true and rather astonished us all. It got me to wondering. And then a newspaper article I read years later that talked about serotonin and aggressive behavior added a second element. Those two things came together in my mind in a "what if?" and a novel was born.

When I decided to write something that was more in the mystery line as opposed to suspense it was a thought I had while observing my first autopsy that became both the genesis for my story/character and the first line in the book. That thought was this: "I'm surprised by how much the inside of a dead body smells like the inside of a live one." As a nurse who briefly worked in the OR and later a student who observed a number of autopsies (for reasons I won't go into here) I had knowledge of both smells. And I realized after I had the thought that it would make a great first line for a novel because it raised all kinds of intriguing questions.

My characters are always a secondary development but they are what I typically spend the most time developing.

Beth

[Fillanzea]

Here's a million-dollar question: What separates the Stephen Kings, John Grishams and Danielle Steeles et al from the rest of the pack? How is it that they can repeatedly write books that command such huge readerships, earning them millions and millions and millions of dollars? What are they doing differently? Does it come down to using genre as a starting point to attract the widest audience possible? Plotting? Creating a certain kind of protagonist?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Genre: books that show up on the bestseller lists tend to certain genres more than others. Technothriller is more popular than SF--more accessible. Fantasy is a niche audience. Romance sells a lot, but not in hardcover. Thrillers of various kinds seem to sell a lot: John Grisham writes legal thrillers, Dean Koontz and Stephen King write horror (or horror-ish) thrillers. The latest NYT hardcover fiction top ten has:

Da Vinci Code (thriller).
State of Fear by Michael Chrichton (thriller).
The Five People You Meet in Heaven (inspirational?)
Life Expectancy by Dean Koontz (thriller).
Night Fall by Nelson DeMille (thriller).
Black Wind by Clive Cussler and Dirk Cussler (thriller). A Salty Piece of Land (by Jimmy Buffett--that probably does more than genre to explain its place on the list)
London Bridges by James Patterson (thriller).
By Order of the President (thriller).
Hot Target by Suzanne Brockman (romance/thriller?)
Lest you think literary novels are completely out of the running, #11 is the new Tom Wolfe. But I think that's a representative sample, no?

Genre and plotting are closely linked, and I think what it comes down to for these bestsellers is what I shorthand as 'narrative force.' Whatever it is that keeps you turning pages.
--A particular style of writing that lets you read the words quickly, get their meaning, and not get bogged down in the beauty of the prose. But there's also an authority in the style: you instantly hear from the author, "I know what I'm doing." It's confident.
--Lots of events happening in short order. Exciting events! Terrorists! Things blowing up! Dinosaurs! Use of cliffhangers to keep us turning pages.
--Complicated plotting that focuses a lot on big events (a couple of those books are terrorism-focused, for example), and not so much on human relationships or intra-personal conflict.
--Characters that are usually very, very competent, characters you wish you were. But they're up against forces as big as they are: victory isn't guaranteed or easy.

I'm saying this not to demean people who write bestsellers, nor to praise them. It's one way of writing; it's a way a lot of people like. Narrative force is incredibly important in all kinds of genre writing--I think all of the above are characteristics of the novels I like to read, but not in ways that are as extreme. I don't think it's the only kind of writing there's room for in the world. I, for one, think I'm more likely to write a good novel by writing the one I'm writing now than one about an eco-terrorist and cloned dinosaurs in Hollywood, but that's me.

If you really want to write a best-seller, read those ten, analyze the heck out of them, pull apart what makes them tick in more detail than I've just done...and see if you still want to write one.

[Fillanzea]

Oh, what I meant to say and didn't:

I am sure that one of the reasons Stephen King et al are so successful is that they don't cold-bloodedly sit around and think, "Now, how can I write a book that will sell a million copies?"

It's hard to fake enthusiasm for a story you don't like. Readers can tell the difference.

[sc211]

About Ender's Game, I thought the book was great and deserves its place as a classic. The dramatic ending was a good twist, even though you know something's gotta happen quick since you're getting right near the end of the book.

And as for the "what happened next" bit after the dramatic ending - I felt it was perfect. As I wrote in the book, "This last chapter adds so much - the moral balance and depth and calm, clear vision that the rest of the book is without. Opens up the other side, to a true victory."

And you know what? Looking at it now, I noticed that right across from that last page is a list of Tor books, including The Price of the Stars - Debra Doyle and James D. Macdonald.

[Dru]

Hello all,

I've been a long time lurker and finally finished getting through the entire thread. Something that I'm currently struggling with is the ability to write short stories.

You've gone over advice to go from the short story to the novel, but is there similar recommendation to going from novel mindset to short stories?

Are there open market contests or places to get published for novella and long stories? I see oodles of short story submission locations, far fewer for anything past 5,000 words.

Thanks in advance!

--Dru

[matrix83]

Two books you might want to check out are "The Art of Fiction," by John Gardner, which is one of the most-respected books on writing available now (or so I believe) and "A Short Story Writer's Companion," by Tom Bailey, which is extremely informative on the art and features lots of recommended reading. These books focus on writing of a literary nature; if you are interested in genre writing you'd probably want to supplement these books with others.

[James D Macdonald]

Are there open market contests or places to get published for novella and long stories?

Well, I wouldn't enter contests at all. As to stories -- what's your genre? You'll find that there are some magazines that specialize in one genre or another. Some of them take quite long stories. Keep your eye open for original anthologies.

If you're a novella kinda person, you have to recognize that you've picked a very tough length to sell.

The reason I talk mostly about novels here is this is the novel board.

[Dru]

Thanks for the pointers on those two resources.

The more active WIPs are one sci-fi and one urban fantasy, which BIC and Lessons 1-23 has been instrumental in getting from index card-butcher sheet outlining to about 30,000 words each so far (only in rough form though).

I guess part of the problem for me is that I find it far easier to wrap my brain around a story (usually some type of speculative fiction) when dealing with novel lengths, as I feel comfortable about the amount of space and time I have to create the world, immerse the reader and create tension. The "big lie" is easier, I guess.

You've mentioned previously that the novel is a very different beast than the short story, and that adding characters/subplots generally helps morph and expand a short story, and I was wondering if the converse was true. Does removing extra characters or plot items help reduce the length of something while maintaining the core?

I fired this in here because how incredibly useful all the comments and questions from people over the thread age have been, but I'll hie off to the Short story forum and repost there.

Anyhoo, thanks for the great resource.

[James D Macdonald]

With a short story, you ought to keep the ending in mind. It should be a satisfying one, and tie up the loose ends. (You have more room to leave unresolved threads in a novel.)

Think of a short story as a joke, a novel as a comedy routine.

Okay, markets:

Where do you find the short stories you read right now? (I trust you're reading short stories -- a lot of them.) Submit your stories to the same places you find the stories you like. Follow their guidelines to the letter.

If you're finding short stories in an anthology, write to the anthology's editor, and ask if he or she is planning another. Editors are friendly. If you enclose a SASE you'll probably hear back.

Analyse the heck out of the stories you like the best. Why do you like them? What's the author doing? Why? Read the stories like a writer, not like a reader.

And write. And send what you write off to people likely to buy it.

[llllynne]

James, please check out my post about apostrophes.

If they aren't exactly correct, will the agents and publishers toss the manuscript aside? If it's a good story will they overlook it and let their editors handle the problem. Thanks.

[James D Macdonald]

James, please check out my post about apostrophes.

Looked to me like your post was about comas, not apostrophes, but (as someone else around here likes to say) what do I know?

If your grammar and punctuation are workmanlike or better, you're fine.

If you aren't confident, get a school review text and work your way through it.

When you're reading published prose, see how the punctuation works.

Other than that, concentrate on your story. Have a beta-reader who's a fiend for nitpicking the sentences.

[pianoman5]

Illlynne, if you're nervous about agents/publishers being somewhat anal about punctuation, your fears are well founded.

Do they care about the odd one or two slip-ups? Nah. Many successful writers admit to being a bit vague about punctuation and even spelling, and rely on others to fix their mistakes before publication. (Although it's a long time since I've read a book that didn't contain several errors, perhaps not always the author's.) The good-story-well-told will always prevail over minor considerations.

But as a new writer desperately seeking attention in an overcrowded market, it's well worth your while to eliminate as many avoidable errors as possible before submitting to anyone that counts. Poorly detailed work shrieks 'AMATEUR' to the overburdened reader, so if you don't have a strong opening, minding all your technical p's and q's, there's a good chance no-one of any consequence to your writing future will read far enough to see how wonderful your story is.

[maestrowork]

You can always hire a copy editor for your final once-over...

Focus on your story first. Mechanics are important, but not to the point when they impede your writing...

[gp101]

Uncle Jim, once a newbie finishes his/her novel, has revised ad nauseum, has had the beta-philes add their comments and revised yet again, and is finally ready to submit to targeted literary agents, what does the submission "package" look like?

If you have to send in a one-page cover letter, a four- to five-page short synopsis, and the first three chap's, how are they bound and presented? This may sound foolish but I know protocal is strict for screenplays, so I'm assuming the same for novels. Are the pages of the synopsis stapled, paper-clipped, or loose? What about the pages for the chapters; are they stapled, paper-clipped, or loose? And are all three entities (the cover letter, the synopsis, the chap's) paper-clipped or loose? Excuse my ignorance and paranoia, but if protocal is strict for presentation, I don't want to screw it up.

Thanks.

[paritoshuttam]

Hi,

In a group conversation (three or more people conversing), how do you avoid giving the attribution tag after every dialogue. It gets tiring to keep saying:

"...," A said.
"...," B said.
"...," C said.
"...," B said and so on.

But then how do you make it clear who is speaking? One way I suppose is giving distinct characteristics to each person's speech. Any other known techniques apart from that (because I think it will look phony if I force some characterisitic down every character's throat)?

thanks,
Paritosh.

[maestrowork]

Variate your tags, add action/gestures, speech patterns, etc.

"..." A said.
"..." B said.
C looked at A. "..."
B laughed. "..."
"..." A snapped. "..."
C stepped forward and grabbed A. "..."
"..." B yelled.

[James D Macdonald]

Okay, first, take a deep breath. Relax. Formats are not anywhere as important as they are in the world of screenplays.

First question: What do the publishers (and/or agent's) guidelines say? They should mention whether they want three-and-an-outline, or a full manuscript, or a query, or what. Guidelines from a specific market always trump every other consideration for that market.

Next:

Formatting the manuscript:

Single side of the paper, double spaced, one-inch margins.

Courier ten or courier twelve, unjustified.

Running head with your name, the title, the page number, on each page.

Manuscripts are sent loose, no binding of any kind.
========

Cover letters are no more than one page. The important parts are your name, address, and phone number. Genre and wordcount are next most important.

Spell the editor's name right.

========

For an outline or summary, be sure you include the surprising twist climax.

For submissions I keep outlines to ten pages single-spaced, and summaries to three or less.

========

If you do nothing else, always include a SASE (self-addressed stamped envelope).

[sc211]

gp, about formatting, check out this page

www.shunn.net/writing/coa...ction.html (http://www.shunn.net/writing/coach/introduction.html)

You'll also find good information in the latest Writer's Market Companion.

[maestrowork]

Here's what I do, with pretty good results (meaning response):

- cover letter only, folded, mailed with SASE in a business envelope
- cover letter by itself, paper clip synopsis, mailed with SASE in a 10x13 envelope
- Use a document folder, cover letter followed by synopsis and SASE in the left pocket (loose), sample chapters (loose)in the right pocket. Send package in 10x13 envelope.
- Full manuscript: send in 8 3/4 x 11 1/4 document box, rubber-band, cover letter on top with SASE. Mark box with name and title.

If the material is requested, put "Requested Material" on the envelope/document box. Also enclose the original request letter from the agent/editor.

[sc211]

Maestro - on that document box, do you put the cover letter and SASE inside the box, on top of the ms?

Also, when you mark the box, do you write on the top side, on the end facing you, or both?

And finally, how do you mail it - do you wrap it up in paper?

Thanks.

[maestrowork]

I place the cover letter on top of the ms. However, I rubber-band the synopsis and SASE with the ms.

On the box, I put a label with my name and the title of the ms on the side as well as the lower left corner of the top of the box. I also clearly mark the box "Requested Material."

I either send the box by itself through priority mail (I'm lazy) or put it inside another box (purchased at the US Post Office).

[black winged fighter]

I'm new here, but I've just read what Uncle Jim said about having the first chapter introduce a person, place, and problem.
My first scenes almost always intro the main person. Sometimes the main place is intro'd, but what about the problem? Does it have to be The Main Problem? Or can it be something that later leads up to TMP?

[maestrowork]

Does it have to be The Main Problem?

I'd say no. But a good problem/conflict would be good. The point is to interest your readers so they'd read on.

[llllynne]

Thanks Pianoman5, thats kind of what I thought...or at least hoped.

[gp101]

Thanks, U.J. and Maestro. Your comments helped. However... Maestro, you mentioned a document folder. Is that common or just your own style? I've never heard of anyone using one for sending in material.

[maestrowork]

It's probably just my style, but it works nicely. Most corporate people use them for document presentation (brochures, marketing materials, etc.) and they're good for sample chapters up to 50 pages.

Cover letter, synopsis, SASE and any other sales pitch on the left pocket. The sample chapters on the right. Nice and clean presentation and keep everything together.

Put a label on the folder and you're set.

[James D Macdonald]

Me, I don't bother with presentation folders, but I suppose it's harmless.

[James D Macdonald]

Yet another article you ought to read: <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006006.html" target="_new">Displaced Advice</a>.

[black winged fighter]

Thank you, maestrowork; that makes sense and it's what I hoped!

[James D Macdonald]

Does it have to be The Main Problem?

No -- just enough of a problem for the readers to want to turn the page to find out What Happens Next.

<HR>

(Commercial announcement -- our next booksigning will be at Pandemonium Books in Cambridge, MA, 3pm to 4pm Saturday, 29 January 05.)

[black winged fighter]

Hey, JDM;

I'd just like to say that this is one of the most helpful sites/threads/forums on writing that I have ever encountered.

Being new in the writing business is tough; these postings are truly useful.

[Philip Fullington Ripper]

TNH's info dump on Neil Gaiman's blog sent me to this thread days ago. I've read every word of the 141 pages, some of them twice. If that doesn't tell you I'm dedicated, or at least that I have a lot of free time, I don't know what would.

Thank all of you for your incredibly generous discourse, with a special hats off, of course, to James D McDonald. This thread has been the greatest source of information on the craft of novel writing that I have yet seen in my life, and thus, a great insperation as well.

When I was a child, I remember waking up early every saturday morning to watch cartoons. This was time my mother spent reading novels in her bedroom. I'd get impatient waiting for her and run into her room to jump up and down on her head, if necessary, to get some attention. I was baffled by what draw some stupid paper with dull boring stupid words on them could possibly have.

I was always behind in reading. I actually got F's in gradeschool on the subject, and also handwriting. It wasn't until I was twelve that I understood what it was all about. I read my first novel, a Dragonlance book titled Dark Heart. I have no idea who wrote it, now. I should send them a thank-you note.

Anyway, it took me a month to get past the first thirty pages, but I didn't give up. When I finished the book I cried for hours, because I wanted all those wonderful people to come back. I didn't want any of it to ever end. That's when I decided that I wanted to be a writer. Not so I could hang out in coffee shops with a laptop to charm women into having wild monkey sex with me in the back room, but because I wanted to be able to write stories that didn't end.

I was never very good at sticking up to that though. I wrote only occasionally, though stories remained my passion, all the way until I was nineteen, when I stopped writing entirely. I had an unrelated psychological break down (caused by the onset of panic dissorder with agoraphobia) which made facing a blank page impossible.

It's been five years since then, and until a few days ago, I haven't written a word. I just started again when I read the first couple pages of this thread.

I am a novice even amongst novices, and there are some very wise people in this thread. But I have thirty eight new pages in a brand new writing folder. Thirty eight pages I didn't have a week ago. Thirty eight pages I might not have had for years to come if I hadn't found all of you.

Thank-you for giving me the insight, the companionship, and the interest to risk starting again what I'd never properly started in the first place. Thank-you for being my torch, to ward off my own grue.

Philip Fullington Ripper

[aka eraser]

Thanks for taking the time to post that Philip. I'm sure you've warmed the cockles of everybody's heart here (especially Jim's).

I expect that folder of yours will be bulging in no time. Best of luck to you.

[James D Macdonald]

Thanks, indeed. My heart's cockles (not to mention my heart's mussels) are definitely warmed.

For reasons that we need not go into here, I too stopped writing for a while when I was 19.

Write, finish what you start, send it out. Repeat. That's the whole of the Magic Secret to Getting Published.

[sc211]

Ripper - great to have you on board. You know more than most of those with master degrees in literature what writing is for and what it can mean.

And about the "wild monkey sex," hey, I didn't know that was even available! Cool!

But really, a great post, and that monkey sex line reminded me of this wise bit on the perils of success as given in an interview by mystery writer Van de Wetering.

"It’s not pleasant. Beautiful woman come up to you when you’re with your wife, your child, and your dog. Or lesbian women come up to you and say you write nasty about women. And you have to defend yourself. 'Me? Nasty about women? I’m not nasty about women.' 'Well, what do you mean by that?' And they’re these big butch ladies, and they’re going to kill you. Or you’re in a hurry to catch a train and someone stops you and tells you the story of your life. It never gets you when you want it, and it gets you when you don’t want it."

[shaynexus]

Jim, a while back you gave the range of percentages of the books' sales prices that are paid to the writer for paperbacks and hardbacks. Do the smaller publishing companies pay the same?

[James D Macdonald]

Do the smaller publishing companies pay the same?

Yes, they pay the same royalty rates. The difference is they have smaller press runs, and show up on fewer shelves. Expect smaller advances, since they'll most likely be selling fewer copies.

[maestrowork]

You should expect 10-15% from small publishers as well. But like UJ said, they sell fewer books than Random House, so your advance or actual royalty would be less.

[gp101]

Just read some disturbing news (news to me, anyway) when I followed one of UJ's recommended links. A publisher claims agents are useless to newbies unless we already have an offer from a publisher. So is it a waste of time to solicit an agent in order to get a publisher? Is that putting the wagon before the horse? Should we instead target publishers exclusively?

The only account I'm familiar with regarding well-known writers getting their first deals is Grisham's. Supposedly he sent his first manuscript to ten publishers before getting signed, not any agents.

[Philip Fullington Ripper]

Lets see if I, in my glorious newbness, can handle this one. gp101 all of this information is paraphrased from earlier in the thread.

Jim's advice, very roughly:

Go the bookstore and find books similar to your own. See who published them. Look up online, or write to those publishers for their submission guidelines.

If they accept unsolicited manuscripts, send your mss. to the biggest or most desirable publishing house first. If they do not, send a query letter. If they reply to your query and say "Send us the first 3 chapters and Outline", then poof, your submission is now solicited. Send it to them.

Mind that you avoid simotaneous submissions unless the submission guidelines specifically state they are allowed.

Now, write letters to the authors of several books similar to your own, and ask them if you can have their agent's contact information. Write the agent contact information in a list, from most desirable (represents the best of the authors, in your opinion, or in terms of books sold, whatever) to the least.

If a publisher contacts you and says they would like to buy your work, tell them, "Could I have my agent call you back?"

Then contact the agents in your list, starting from the top, and tell them, "I have an offer from publishing house A, and would like you to represent me." If the agent turns you down, go to the next one on the list.

With a deal already offered, the agents won't all turn you down.

---

Forgive me if I didn't quite get it -- but I think that's the jist of James D McDonald's advice.

You can also send query letters to agents, of course, before you have any contract. Someone else can probably direct you to a trust worthy listing of agents, but I'd go with contacting authors -- because their agents worked well enough to get them in bookstores, so they're tried and true.

Trying to recruit an agent without having a single offer or publishing contract is more difficult however.

Philip Fullington Ripper

[evanaharris]

Phillip, perhaps you'd like to go all the way back to the beginning and summarize everything Jim has said exactly how you just did it, that way we'll have TWO very well-written pieces of advice.

And, actually, I reccomend this to Jim, if he's all for it:

Wikibooks (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page)

Open-source text books, and, at Wikipedia.com (http://www.wikipedia.com), an invaluable encyclopedia.

Jim will lose a good deal of control over the material if he goes the Wikibook route, but it'd be easier for everyone to pitch in and help get everything together and organized under one roof.

The innate problem with any "get it all together in one spot" plan is that a lot of the best bits of advice come from questions. And that's just a bitch for copyright.

Some ideas, anyway.

[sc211]

About Grisham, from an interview, "I was prepared for a couple of years of rejections. In the first three months, fifteen agents and fifteen publishers said no to me. Most writers go through that."

And this from an old Writer's Digest:

Grisham sent A Time to Kill to sixteen agents before one took him on, and then it took the agent a full year, and twenty-six submissions, to make the sale.

Still, from all I've read, what you said is true - it doesn't make much sense to look for an agent unless you've already been published or have a publisher interested.

And yet, David Morrell, in his Lessons from a Lifetime of Writing, has a chapter on the business of writing which does say that there are agents who are looking for fresh talent and recommends the usual books on finding them, such as the Writer's Market.

[James D Macdonald]

All agents (who are worth having) are looking for new authors (in a general sense). As other authors drop off their lists, or they increase the size of their agencies, or they feel they can take on more work. It's always in a state of flux.

But it's in a state of slow flux. The lists may not change for years.

So ... yeah, Ripper's summary is pretty good.

There's also approaching agents directly. Some people manage that route.

You can go two pronged: Publishers and agents at the same time.

But... it's a long process. You have to find someone who loves your book, and it has to arrive when that person (whether editor or agent) has an opening.

While you're waiting, write another book. Use everything you've learned while writing the first one to make the second one better.

[sc211]

Exactly so. As that Writer's Digest bit went on to say, "During that time Grisham wrote The Firm."

[maestrowork]

I definitely agree witht the two-pronged approach... it worked for me. And in the meantime, I'm writing my second novel.

[SRHowen]

I went to agents--only one publisher with my latest.

A number of rejections, and I was almost ready to hang it up on the agent front and go to publishers myself. I said --these are the last five I am sending out. Period. Then I go to the publishers myself.

Among those five I signed with my agent.

Some things to consider:

And agent with a good reputation and the right contacts can speed the process. He/She can send the ms to any publisher both the agented and non agented ones. He can make contacts and send many proposals out at the same time--even have several complete mss out there at the same time.

And you don't have to worry about the rejections, or the sending out, or the research, you agent does that and you get to write, write, write.

IMHO anyway--

Shawn

[James D Macdonald]

Exactly so. As that Writer's Digest bit went on to say, "During that time Grisham wrote The Firm."

It's a common item of folklore that Grisham self-published his first book. He didn't -- A Time to Kill was published in hardcover by a traditional advance-and-royalty paying New York publisher (albeit a small one).

Yes, he did do a lot of self-promotion. No, that isn't what made him a best seller.

What catapulted him into the ranks of bestsellerdom was when his second book (The Firm) sold to Hollywood before it was published, thanks to his agent. Nothing like a Tom Cruise movie (along with having a strong plot and solid prose) to notch you up a bit.

[maestrowork]

When it first came out, A Time To Kill only sold about 5000 copies, mostly in Grisham's neighborhood. It's not a bad number, considering it was a small publisher.

Yup, a big movie deal would do that to you (can you hear me drooling, yet?). Same thing happened to Nicholas Sparks -- he sold the movie rights to Kevin Costner for "Message In a Bottle" before he even started writing the novel. So a solid first book is very helpful.

[CapeRuby]

I can't believe it, I've actually gotten to the end of the thread, after weeks!

I just wanted to drop a thank you note to all and sundry, and particularly some tremendous thanks and kudoes to James for an enormous amount of help.

I stopped writing at 22ish and picked it up with /intent/ about 4 years ago (after a long break). I want to write novels, but I've stalled out on 5 of them. (Well, 4, actually... the first was a collaboration, a completed rough draft that was shelved because of orienteering differences.) I keep hitting walls -- by which I mean, particular aspects of craft that simply aren't sufficiently up to snuff to allow me to get to The End. (After reading this thread, I actually am starting to wonder if they boil down to the same wall: not enough "idea" for a novel, or "writing to the wrong size for the story.")

Every time I hit one of those walls, I end up going back to short stories to work out the particular problem (be it plotting or pace or characterization or conflict) and practice the kinks out of it, but those don't sell, either, although some of the rejections are mildly positive.

On looking the stories over again after a rejection or two or four, I can see all too clearly why they weren't bought. So, at least I'm learning. I then say "Hell won't take 'em," and they end up in a box. It doesn't help that (I confess) I don't really like to /read/ short stories. I'm a brick-of-a-novel sort of reader, and really, that's what I want to write. On the other hand, doesn't popular wisdom advise one to work out the kinks in a shorter medium? I have to admit, it's been extremely discouraging to have four washouts -- all those wasted months, with nothing to send out for rejection at the end of them! I'm not sure I could even face a novel attempt this year.

This thread has given me a lot of insight into process, which is exactly what I've needed, I think. So... sorry to make a short story long (pardon the pun!), but I thought it was rude to lurk without sharing. 8)

Thank you all again, and particularly Uncle Jim (and btw, I read Price of the Stars years ago, over and over and over and over.... I think I bought three of them. It made a wonderful gift!)

--Linda :)

[Philip Fullington Ripper]

Jim talked about novels as architecture. I want to write a novel like this. (http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/arch/gothic/gothic.jpg) Gothic architecture is a neat thing. It has two basics that differentiate it from earlier styles; first, its arches come to a point; second, it uses flying buttresses. Flying buttresses are half an arch, built on the outside of a building to give it further support. They allow you to build much taller structures.

The highest point in most buildings made in this style is a dome, that is, a three dimensional arch that is supported not only by the sides, but by the front and rear of the building. Often, a series of smaller domes, supported by four arches each, make up the rest of the ceiling.

If you look at the ceiling of Laon Cathedral (http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/arch/gothic/laon03.jpg) you'll actually see the arches built into the dome itself. In this instance, five arches to each dome. This looks similar to Jim's celtic knots.

This style of ceiling, and the flying buttresses, allow you to make huge open spaces inside the building. This is especially useful for cathedrals, which is why the most famous examples of gothic architecture are cathedrals (the most famous being Notre Dame).

I imagine the flying buttresses as subplots, the rows of archways that hold up the walls as characterization, the small domes and their arches as plot, the highest, giant dome (which relies structuraly on every single other element) as the climax. The vast open space inside, meant to inspire thoughts of divinity, is theme.

The minute carvings, the tapestries, the windows, all the details are the language. The deep foundation is what I know that you do not. To hold up that weight the foundation has to be large and heavy, but would ruin the art to be seen.

----------

Now that lovely concept in my head is so far not even remotely related to what I'm writing. I make myself write an hour a day, but so far I've written on average two or three. I'm new to this. I'm sloppy. But I force words onto paper.

I have 68 pages right now, but half of that is not story. When I'm stuck, which is all the time, to get myself writing I write whatever I have to. I go over the scenes but don't list dialogue, or I write about what I think the next scene should be. Whatever I have to do to keep my hands moving.

I leave all this gibberish in my files. I don't cut anything out. I think of it in my head as my zero draft. On the downside, if I want a 400 page mss. it means I'll have 800 pages in the file.

Is this a dangerous thing to do? Would it be better to only write what belongs there, rather than force-writing and commentary just to keep moving? Because I've never done this before, I'm worried about falling into pitfalls that I'm not familiar with.

Today is the first day in the past nine that I've had a really hard time with it. In the meantime, I'm just repeating to myself over and over that it's okay to have a hard time with it. Just like I repeat to myself that it's okay to write horribly, as long as I'm writing.

Philip Fullington Ripper

P.S. I feel you CapeRuby. Next time, finish it even when you hit the brick wall. Even if it sucks horribly and you don't like it. Wouldn't you rather have a finished, but flawed mss. than four aborted attempts?

[James D Macdonald]

It doesn't help that (I confess) I don't really like to /read/ short stories. I'm a brick-of-a-novel sort of reader, and really, that's what I want to write. On the other hand, doesn't popular wisdom advise one to work out the kinks in a shorter medium?

It doesn't make much sense to me to write a form that you don't enjoy reading.

And many fine novelists have never published a short story in their lives.

I have 68 pages right now, but half of that is not story. When I'm stuck, which is all the time, to get myself writing I write whatever I have to. I go over the scenes but don't list dialogue, or I write about what I think the next scene should be. Whatever I have to do to keep my hands moving.

Hey, that's nothing. In some of my outlines I have myself as a character, talking about what I want to have happen in a scene, discussing it with the characters.

Whatever it takes to get words on the page. You can work with words on the page. It's a lot harder to work on ideas that are only in your head.

[maestrowork]

A writing teacher once told me: the best way to keep writing is to simply BIC and write stream-of-consciousness thing. Anything that comes out of your mind. Just write. And eventually something useful will come out of it.

Alas! I have never been able to follow that advice, but I still think it's a good one.

[reph]

CapeRuby, a current thread on the Short Fiction forum discusses the short/long issue.

[JimMorcombe]

U.J. has emphasised the BIC method of writing and I couldn't agree with his advice more.

However, his "its okay to write crap" advice needs to be tempered.

I have BIC'ed faithfully and produced draft one of a novel. When things wouldn't flow nicely, I just forced my way through and wrote poor prose, figuring I'd turn it into good prose during the editting stage.

Unfortunately, I hate editting. When I get to a section of crap, I really feel bad about my writing ability and the editting slows down further.

Robert Mitchener claim their first draft is always bad. He said he was a very poor writer, but a world class rewriter.

On the other extreme, Robert Heinlein said he never rewrote a word of a story unless the editor told him to.

I think we all need to recognise out like and dislikes, our strengths and out weaknesses.

Personally, I will never again put any words down on paper that I know are poor prose at the time I write them. It may take me three times as long to write a novel, but I'll enjoy it more and will probably get to the end faster anyway.

[maestrowork]

I think UJ's ultimate motto is golden: Do what works.

If you find out you're a better writer than a rewriter, go for it. Although I must warn you, you WILL have to rewrite some, sooner or later, no matter how "perfect" your frist draft is.

[detante]

no matter how "perfect" your frist draft is.

Brilliant. Seriously.

[sc211]

I love editing. It keeps me from writing.:D

But seriously, do you know what a treppenwitz is? It's a German word for "the wit of the stairway," meaning those brilliant comebacks you think of only as you're leaving the party.

That's why I love rewriting - you can be as brilliant as you wish (given enough time, inspiration, and/or vaguely illegal substances).

(Just rewrote that. ;) )

[Writing Again]

I enjoy rewriting as much as I enjoy producing the original concept. I feel about editing my ms the way a car buff feels about waxing and polishing a much loved automobile.

[Writing Again]

I have started reading "Understanding Comics" by Scott McCloud.

For anyone who has not read this book, it is the kind I love: It is the kind where I read a page or three and then have to set the book down and think for a time before I'm ready to continue.

It is the type of book I would recommend for anyone to read who has a philosophical bent and or anyone who wishes to understand the human condition.

Oh, yes, it gives one thoughts on writing as well.

[detante]

A friend of my had recommended McCloud's book, but I had forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder, Writing Again.

Jen

[HConn]

It's a terrific book that has insights applicable for several kinds of writing.

[Sarashay]

I finally made it to the end of the thread! Wahey!

Been fascinating reading, I must say.

Now I guess it's time for me to start applying the lessons. Though I will say I have a few Key Lime pies left to bake before I start building crates.

Oh, I wanted to say something in Peter David's defense, regarding something that was posted oh, about six months ago regarding one of his novels, where the villians' names corresponded to dishes served in a Seder (I think it was?)

Anyway. Peter David is my brother-in-law. He is, in fact, Jewish. Knowing Peter and his sense of humor, I can safely bet that he knew exactly what he was doing when he picked those names.

'shay

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

*happy dance upon joining the ranks of the Caught Up*

Egad. I may actually start posting to this thread. Look! I've already have! Eeek!

*slinking back under lurkstone for now*

[matrix83]

I have to construct a scene necessary for the plot of my novel, but for some reason, I am having trouble making it come to life. My protag is in a bookstore having coffee with an author who has just given a signing. They are talking. I am thinking - have them leave the bookstore and go to a go-go bar or something, change the scenery to make it come to life, but I also like the idea of them being in the bookstore.....anyone have any tricks to get them through those perfunctory but necessary scenes?

[debraji]

Have a bad poetry slam going on in the background.

[HConn]

Matrix, you have some kind of conflict in the scene, yes?

[Sarashay]

Have a bad poetry slam going on in the background.I didn't know there was such a thing as a good one.

'shay

[matrix83]

HCONN, many thanks ....now that you mention it, I really don't have clear conflict in this scene. I am setting the characters up for later conflict; the scene I am writing pertains to their initial meeting. The author, so to speak, is trying to compel his coffee-drinking companion into a Faustian pact of sorts....

Should I layer conflict into this scene? Actually, I can think of a couple of ways to do this (now that you mentioned it)....

But this begs the question: Should every scene in a novel have conflict in it? Are there exceptions?

And from left field: Are sub plots necessary??

MANY THANKS!

[HConn]

Subplots are not necessary, but are nice.

And there are many different kinds of conflict, and I think every scene needs at least one of them.

[maestrowork]

Subplots make your story richer and more layered and more interesting.

[sc211]

You're right to be wary of having two people sitting and talking. It can be done very well if there's conflict and something at stake, or with simply great dialogue (think of all the great mafia/hitman scenes in bar booths), but a little action is always good.

Conan Doyle would put Holmes and Watson into a carriage and have Holmes give all the background information as they rode through the city or countryside on the way to the case.

Bill Watterson wrote that he used the same technique in his "Calvin and Hobbes," always having them racing down a hill in a cart or sled as Calvin philosophized about life. It kept you reading 'cause you knew there'd be a crash at the end.

[Zane Curtis]

I must say, I don't much like rewriting. That's why I spend more time up front getting the structure right. Once I have a pretty good idea of where all my crises, climaxes, and plot twists need to go I can write a first draft that won't need so much rewriting.

I don't do a plot outline, though. Plotting involves deciding how characters are going to act and react. To plot, I need to get inside the characters' heads, see the situation develop as they see it, and choose the responses that would make sense to them at the time. Making those decisions in a plot outline ahead of time is the best way to get yourself an idiot plot (i.e. a plot that only works because all the characters are idiots, incapable of making sensible decisions).

[gp101]

Is my newbie-ness showing? I just read that you should leave two spaces--not one--after the period at the end of each sentence in your manuscript. I am doing so in this post, and while it looks more appealing, is it necessary/required for novel-length submissions? I honestly never heard of this outside of journalism. I hate to think how many pages it adds to a manuscript, but more importantly, do we need to do this? The same artcile mentioned doing likewise after a colon: so that there are two spaces like I just left. Sorry for the anal question. UJ...? Others? Do we have a consensus? And are there other punctuation we need to leave two spaces after... like this one?

[matrix83]

Thanks folks - your various comments regarding getting through the writing of a boring scene have helped expose an even greater flaw in my story, namely, that there is not enough conflict in the beginning. I think I am going to create a sign that says CONFLICT and hang it above my computer monitor. I guess I am too much of a conflict-avoider in life, and I have been trying to extend that characteristic into my fictional worlds. A big and obvious no-no.....

[aka eraser]

One space after a period is standard in NA. I had thought it was universal but a writing friend in NZ says double spacing is still the norm for subs over there.

[tjosban]

As a business student, the rules for us are somewhat changing. When I was younger the rigid rule was two spaces after a period. Now, there seems to be a noncommittal response for either method. As such I have the hardest time because I will hybrid both methods into one piece of work.

But thanks for another editing point I need to check out when I get my ms done. ;)

[Joanclr]

Uncle Jim --

I just caught up on a few days' backlog of pages, and read your announcement about the book signing at Pandemonium Books in Cambridge. I'm definitely jazzed about coming along! Of course, a lot will depend on whether this infernal blizzard lets up, and how long it takes to dig the state out by that time. But you just might be seeing me there :)

Joan

[sc211]

In a manuscript, use two spaces after each period. The book won’t be printed that way, but it helps make a manuscript easier for an editor to read.

And matrix - get mean! >: Let your characters be the ass within you!

[James D Macdonald]

All that double-spacing after a period means is that you learned how to type on a real typewriter. Folks who learned how on a computer tend to use one space.

Be consistent, otherwise don't worry about it.

Meanwhile, a <a href="http://www.theonion.com/opinion/index.php?issue=4104&o=2" target="_new">charming story</a>.

[MacAl Stone]

Aw crap...she didn't give us her contact information...

[reph]

That's okay, Mac. You can have mine.

She distinguished copy editing from line editing. What are the differences?

[Robin Grantham]

Hi, folks. I'm slipping on the board quietly. This is my first post. *looks over at the bizarre smilies 8o ;) :b *

Jim,

I loved the link. I loved that she actually sees wisdom in the occasional split infinitive. (Geez, I hate taking those out sometimes.) Not to mention the fact that she understands the profound impact a good but-led sentence can have. Best of all, though, she wears noise-reduction headphones. I can finally know I'm not the only one sitting around looking like she’s waiting for the next plane to land. :lol

Also, I hope you're right about the single space after sentences. A well-known author was kind enough to respond to a letter I sent her, and the first thing I noticed was her use of double-spaces between sentences. :eek

[aka eraser]

Well-written and superbly punctuated.

Howcum green pencil and not red?

[macalicious731]

Red looks angry?

[JuliePgh]

Uncle Jim et al,

I want to say a quick "hello." I disappeared from the board about 20 pages ago (yikes... I have a lot of reading to catch up!). I took a break from my novels and have been working on my picture books. Two very different writings, by the way.

I'm glad to see this thread is alive and kicking and many of the old familiar "faces" still present.

Julie

[Stlight]

Reading this thread has gotten me back into the mode of writing. Okay, it's actually gotten the re-write done and a few queries sent. Huge progress there.

There is one thing I keep wondering about and that is the chess game business. My father taught me to play, but the silence of the game was the most difficult part. Later I read a few books on it, which I have now lost. I think one was by Capablanca (spell?) (Cuban chess master) and it helped.

It never occurred to me that there was a connection between chess and writing a novel. So, here are the questions what can you tell from a person's chess game about his/her writing style? Does a strong beginning game and a weak mid-game mean the individual has trouble with plotting? Does a strong beginning and mid-game and weak end game mean that the individual has difficulty developing a satisfying ending to his/her book?

This is a serious question because I've been told I play chess with a good beginning and mid game and a weak end game. I also have a tendency to talk while playing, which limits the number of people who are willing to play with me.

Stlight

[Cyyschn]

Playing chess has nothing to do with writing a novel on anything but a metaphorical level. Well, maybe if you're writing a novel about chess it does, but that's it.

[Stlight]

Okay, that's good. At least it is for me since I got stuck on the end game thing.

[James D Macdonald]

So, here are the questions what can you tell from a person's chess game about his/her writing style?

Nothing.

It's all symbolic; a way of thinking about novels.

I've been trying to explain in several ways how I think about novels -- they're like a chess game, they're like a model house, they're like a knot -- but really, only a novel is a novel.

The chess thing still and more: Put your pieces in strong positions, and combinations will arise = put your characters in interesting situations, and story will arise.

And again: studying openings will teach you openings; studying endgames will teach you chess = analysing first chapters will teach you first chapters; analysing climaxes will teach you plot.

If something I say makes no sense, leave it be. Maybe it means something to someone else. Maybe the next thing I say will mean something to you.


Take what's useful to you. Leave the rest.

[HConn]

I will admit, the chess stuff is only slightly clear to me. If there's more to it than Jim explained in the post above, it all goes straight over my noggin.

But I'm a terrible chess player.

There's still a lot of incredibly useful stuff in this thread.

Thanks, for taking the time, UJ.

[Stlight]

This thread has gotten my writing moving again and lots of it does make sense to me. I appreciate it and, actually, the whole board.

I asked about the chess because I thought I had an idea of how it worked. Right, didn't, but then this is the same thing that happened to my math in school, I thought it worked, at least my logic did in that one problem, but it didn't transfer. So I finally learned to ask. And, this time, I was curious about whether you could tell something about one from the other. :D

Where the chess didn't work for me the doll house did. I love them, always have and I've spent hours with them. In fact that's where I started "writing" decorate the doll house, put several appropriate sized dolls in it and start the story.

Stlight

[James D Macdonald]

It isn't even chess in general that I'm recommending, it's one particular chess book: Logical Chess Move by Move.

It shows a way of analysing the game that I find useful also in analysing novels. Go through, line by line (move by move) and see what the author is doing. Go through your own works line by line, and see what the story is doing. Is it moving? Is it supporting future action? Are you boxing yourself in or building a strong structure?

That's another part of what I'm saying.

[Medievalist]

A line editor looks at text in the context of the entire work. The line editor will consider word choice, structure, watch for character and continuity issues, the way the story works.

The copy editor looks at the text, the spelling, grammar, punctuation, and issues of correctness. I sometimes think of the line editor as the macro editor, and the copyeditor as the micro editor.

Both of these are separate from the proof reader.

[Writing Again]

Line editing ... Anybody have a solution for this problem?

A long time ago I read books, studied, became fairly comfortable that I knew what I was doing when I tried to line edit my books -- Except ... Oooops -- There I go reading again and forgetting to line edit.

How do you keep yourself on target and not find you've been reading for five pages instead of line editing?

[mr mistook]

It shows a way of analysing the game that I find useful also in analysing novels. Go through, line by line (move by move) and see what the author is doing.

This analogy has really gripped me. Not that I was ever much of a chess player, but I went through a phase, and I'm familiar with the move by move strategies.

The nice part about applying this thinking to writing a novel is that you don't really have an adversary - or if anything, the "adversary" is the reader. You keep their thoughts in mind. You hedge off their dis-interest before it can click in their mind. Every move is calculated to keep them involved in the story, which forces you to keep the story rolling.

The gigantic advantage you have as a writer, is that you can plan everything ahead of time. You don't have to write a novel *live* in real-time for a studio audience. Like with painting, or recording, you can touch it up and re-work it forever until it's exactly the way you want it to go down.

This Chess analogy also has everything to do with "show don't tell" in my opinion. What if you were to sit down to a chess board with a freind and describe the kind of ingenious game you intend to play without ever moving a peice?

They'd get up and walk away. You're not involving them.

[Philip Fullington Ripper]

I'm into the guts of my first novel, being somewhere over 20,000 words (I'm aiming for the ballpark of 80-100k words -- fantasy novel). I haven't let myself edit at all. I haven't re-read much either, but I have noticed one big problem.

I spent years reading books about writing instead of writing. My head is full of a thousand people's advice, most of which I shouldn't have read in the first place, I'm sure. Anyway, having read so much, some of what they say over and over again digs into your brain and becomes habit.

When I was a child, I overwrote everything. There was not an unmodified verb in site. Every sentence begged to be a run on. Every noun demanded verbose clarification. You get the point. This drove everyone who read anything I wrote crazy. So I hit their criticism and the advice of umpteen bazillion How to Write books.

Well, that was years ago. I seem to have over corrected. I tear apart anything I have to say in my mind before it ever hits the paper. I did this long enough internally that now I *think* in bare sentences when I sit down to write fiction. I don't mean bare in the efficient sense; I mean vague and fast.

Every scene I write, my instinct is to say: Guy A walks into the room. Guy A stabs Guy B. Guy B dies. Guy A laughs and leaves the room. Next Chapter.

I'm not joking. I have to force more detail into the work, and even then, my paragraphs are on average only 23 words long. It's too fast. I need to slow it down.

Everywhere I look is advice on how to slim writing down. I don't know any advice on how to fatten it up when it's developed a serious eating dissorder.

Philip Fullington Ripper

P.S. If necessary to explain I can post an excerpt of my non-edited nonsense in the show your work section.

[ElizabethJames]

This used to be a familiar pattern . . . now we have binged off in the other direction. Must admit though, it seems easier to strip out the excess in revisions than to add more in.

Good luck.

[James D Macdonald]

Try this: Remember way back when, I suggested that you retype the first chapter of a novel you admire?

How's this: Take that novel you admire, and count the paragraphs in a chapter. Count the sentences in the paragraphs. Count the words in the sentences.

Now:

Take your over-brief chapter. Fit it to the outline of the other, admired book. Use the same number of paragraphs with the same number of sentences and words.

Treat this like a word game. A puzzle. See what comes out the far side. Have fun doing it.

[reph]

A line editor looks at text in the context of the entire work. The line editor will consider word choice, structure, watch for character and continuity issues, the way the story works.

The copy editor looks at the text, the spelling, grammar, punctuation, and issues of correctness.

That's a surprise. Most of my work history has been copy editing, and I did all those things. I'm in California. Perhaps nomenclature varies regionally.

[Medievalist]

Reph wrote:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>That's a surprise. Most of my work history has been copy editing, and I did all those things. I'm in California. Perhaps nomenclature varies regionally.<hr></blockquote>

I don't think it's geographically determined, but the definition and job description depends on the employer. I figure most of the people in this thread are interested in novel publishing.

I've worked on books where there's a production editor, a copy editor, and a proofer, and on books where the copy editor/proofer/typesetter were the same person (tiny academic scholarly press, producing five books a year).

I've also worked on books where there's a production editor, a copy editor, a line editor, a proofer and a technical editor, responsible for checking and correcting the accuracy of the technical data and procedures.

And of course, the copy editor and the line editor are co-conspirators; ideally their jobs dovetail beautifully and there's bound to be some overlap.

[Scott Janssens]

I had the privilege of seeing Jim give the chess metaphor in person. What impacted my writing the most was when he said, "each piece thinks the story is about him. If you asked this pawn what the story's about, he'd say, 'It's about this pawn...'"

It also reflects what Stephen King says in On Writing: If you put interesting characters in interesting situations then interesting things will happen. From this I learned the King and I have very different writing methods.

[maestrowork]

Absolutely. Give each and every one of your character motivation, desire and stakes, no matter how minor they are. They should all have a life (even though the readers might not read about them). They all think the story is about them.

[sc211]

Ripper - I'm not sure how your descriptive scenes work, but if you were writing a first person interior monologue, or even dialogue, what you wrote in your post is very good. It's sharp, to the point, and carries the tone well.

Which kind of authors do you like to read the most - the lean Hemingway style or the more verbose repertoire? If it's the lean, then maybe that's just your way.

[Philip Fullington Ripper]

The avuncular James D McDonald,

From my perspective that advice about writing a chapter of a favorite novel is only a couple weeks old. I've done that in my past. I have not done it recently.

I don't currently own any of my favorite books, but I've ordered one. I read what friends throw at me, which is a quite random and volumous selection, akin to running through a haunted library that flings books at you from off the shelves. My own selection is abysmal, and includes only those books bad enough that my friends did not want them returned. When my order arrives, I will complete your advised exercise posthaste.

Thinking about the problem, I think that half of my problem is really my incomplete understanding of my story. Perhaps those details aren't around because I don't know or yet understand those details. More to think about.

sc11,

As I said above, the books I read are determined by the chaos of my social circle. This has spread my favorite books out over a wide landscape of genres and styles. One of my favorite fantasy novels (my story is a fantasy) had long, exhaustive sections on woodworking, which bored many to tears but fascinated me. While favorites in other genres are bare and smooth.

My taste is based more on characterization styles than prose styles, I think.

I appreciate all of your input. I'll keep trucking away and tell you how it works out.

Sincerely,
Philip

[Denis Castellan]

Hi everyone.

I've been reading this long thread during the past two weeks, and I just felt like I had to join in to say a big "thank you" to all the people who share their experience here.

I've been searching for that kind of thread in french (well, that was because I am french !) but I could not find any at least half as interesting as this one.

The same goes for books about the craft of writing (except for the french translation of S.King's On Writing).

So thank you mister Macdonald and everyone else for giving some of your time and please excuse me if I wrote "strange sounding" things (english is not my first language) :)

Denis

[Kate Nepveu]

Philip Fullington Ripper: One of my favorite fantasy novels (my story is a fantasy) had long, exhaustive sections on woodworkingModesitt, I bet?

I like craft-y sections in novels too, I find it soothing. I stopped reading Modesitt's books for other reasons, but I still like reading about characters who do things (for example, Tamora Pierce's YA "Circle of Magic" series, which deals with magic expressed through crafts).

[Philip Fullington Ripper]

Dead on, Kate.

[xander]

Every scene I write, my instinct is to say: Guy A walks into the room. Guy A stabs Guy B. Guy B dies. Guy A laughs and leaves the room. Next Chapter.

Two bits of advice, both taken from James Alan Gardner (http://www.thinkage.ca/~jim)'s writing workshop this past weekend at Vericon (http://www.vericon.org), although the following descriptions and formulations are mine, not Gardner's, so don't blame him.

1. "Wordspace." The number of words you use to describe events, actions, and items should be roughly proportional to their importance. A long car ride that's just used to get the character from place to place should take a sentence at most. The car crash that happens in an instant but changes the character's life should be a paragraph at least.

2. Action and reaction. Stories are about people. Write a sentence of action, then two sentences of reaction. How does that make a character feel? What does it make him think about? What is he worried about now?

[SRHowen]

You may want to write this draft of your novel as an outline draft. Write your bare bones draft--then go back and use the bare bones "outline" tp write the actual story.

Try to "see" it as a reader, how much detail do you need to tell the reader to make the scenes clear.

Shawn

[sc211]

One of the best pieces of writing advice I ever got was when someone said to write your story as if you were writing a letter to a friend.

That unhooked so much of the baggage from high school and college, where you end up sounding like you're addressing the school board with a grammar book up your butt. 8o You know, trying to be all proper and end up being properly stiff and inauthentic.

But in writing to a friend, to someone who gets you and who you don't need to impress, it all comes across so simply and clear and flows from both the heart and the gut.

You hear of it all the time, like A.A. Milne writing his Pooh stories for his son, Christopher, or Kurt Vonnegut writing his novels to his dead sister. In focusing on one person, you quiet the nerves of addressing a crowd and your voice becomes more natural and open.

So, Ripper, maybe you could try writing as if you were e-mailing a friend about something that happened to you. Or the way you'd tell it to friends in a bar. Then it wouldn't be "Guy A shot Guy B, Guy A left," but "And then Guy A, he hauled out this snub-nosed .35, held it right up to Guy B, like he was nothing, like he never had a chance, and blew him away. The body thumped back against the bed, slipped to the floor, and that was it. Guy A was gone."

Later you can go back and tidy it up - what's important is you got the flow of it. And in pretending you're telling it to your friends, you hit on all the right notes, the details that thunk into place as you're telling it.

And hey, Denis, welcome! Your "strange sounding" writing is better than most Americans'.

[aka eraser]

And hey, Denis, welcome! Your "strange sounding" writing is better than most Americans'

Yeah, and darn near as good as Canadians'. ;)

[TashaGoddard]

Phew! I finally got through reading this thread last night.

Thanks to all of you - especially, but not only, Uncle Jim - for a very informative and interesting read.

I'm 31 years old and European (specifically half Welsh, half English). I run my own business with my husband. We provide services to the publishing industry - software development, editing, proofreading and various incarnations these. Mostly, we work for educational publishers, rather than in fiction, although have edited a few novels in the past (not terribly good erotic fiction, which I stopped doing after one of them made me physically sick, and because it paid really, really badly). In theory, this could mean I have a bit of a headstart - but really all it means is that I might be able to find missing commas a bit more easily after putting the novel in drawer for a few months (certainly not before).

Anyway (this is a word I overuse in emails, letters and on posting boards - fortunately, I'm aware of this, so it doesn't tend to start every paragraph in my fiction), I used to write a lot, but had more or less a 10-year break, for no apparent reason. I had a couple of poems published in a local poetry magazine, when I was 18. But that's it. I've recently started to get back into writing and have a number of novels on the go - though some of these are only at the very initial idea stage.

My main problem is getting down to the BIC. Working for myself, I have considerably varying workloads. Sometimes, I can have a few weeks where I only need to do a couple of hours' work a day; other times (e.g. the last month) I have to work 15-hours a day or more. Last Thursday, for example, I had to get up at 4am and work straight through to 5pm to complete two jobs in time for the deadlines. I then collapsed into a vegetable-like state alternating between watching TV, reading (including reading this thread) and sleeping for a few days, before starting on the next project.

The problem is the variability of my workload and working hours, therefore. Getting up 2 hours early is already a strategy that is being used to get my actual work done. Some days I can find 5 or 6 hours to write. Some days all I can manage is a few minutes scribbling in my notebook before turning the light off and hitting the pillow. So, any tips on how to fit the BIC in (other than getting up 2 hours early)?

The other immediate problem I am facing with my writing is that I am consistently giving one of the characters (usually one of the main characters) a relative with a specific mental health disorder. There is no reason (from the story's point of view) to do this. I am clearly using it as some form of therapy (because, for the last few years, a very close relative of mine has been suffering from this disorder and it is therefore at the forefront of my mind). While I think that there could be a valid place for this in some novels (even perhaps in the ones I'm writing now - just in terms of character background) it seems to completely take over whenever I sit down and just write, write, write.

Does anyone else find something from their real life taking over their writing in this way? And, if so, do you have any tips on getting rid of it? Or perhaps I should use it instead of getting rid of it - write what you know? I'm wondering whether a) I need to write a short or even a novel with this issue at its centre (maybe just as a therapeutic exercise!) or b) go and find a therapist myself, so I can dump it on her, rather than in my writing!

As you will have noticed, I tend to ramble a lot. If I can say something in ten words, I will say it in 100 instead. Oddly, this does not always translate to my fiction writing. At least, I think so. I have yet to actually complete the 1st draft of a novel, let alone get to the stage where I edit out all the stuff that isn't needed (perhaps, when I do, I will find that I only end up with a 2000-word short story, rather than a novel!).

One more thing I want to say before I post this (rather huge) introduction, is that just because I'm an editor by trade, does not mean my posts will be free of typos and other errors. I could copy and paste this into Word and leave it sat there for a few days (or even a few hours) and then go back and edit it. I would probably find most of the errors and also cut it down to three or four sentences instead of a long ramble. But I'm afraid I save that kind of effort for my day job (and for my writing, too). This is in way of an apology for any glaring errors in the above. Please don't shout and say, 'She's not an editor! Look she should have used a semi-colon there and she doesn't know the difference between "their" and "there"!'

And hello, by the way.

[debraji]

Hi, Tasha. I have an idea about your character with the mental disorder. This is what I might do:

For the first draft, leave him (?) in. While you're working through the rest of the story, keep him in the back of your mind. Can his condition, his own subplot, serve to comment on your main themes? Or perhaps you may find ways to connect him into the main story as you develop it. Give it time to develop.

Explore this more fully in your second draft. If there's really no connection, or if the whole thing just seems to distract from the overall plot, then cut it. You can always save it for another book.

I find that when I come up against a story problem, working out the solution seems to deepen the story.

[tjosban]

sc211 said:

That unhooked so much of the baggage from high school and college, where you end up sounding like you're addressing the school board with a grammar book up your butt. You know, trying to be all proper and end up being properly stiff and inauthentic.

I started laughing out loud for real on this one. I know that feeling. Actually, I wrote like that for awhile when I was younger. I didn't earn the name "Technical Tori" for nothing.

[macalicious731]

Hi Tasha, this is my thought regarding your character. For the time being, I would leave the character in. You can always cut him later if it doesn't work. However, I find that sometimes when I put in seemingly unimportant details, they are the answer to the plot holes or twists that show up halfway through, or even at the end of, a WIP. So, you never know what your subconscious is trying to tell you.

[TashaGoddard]

Thank you debraji and macalicious. That sounds like a good idea. And it should stop me from getting stuck when I start worrying about, too. I shall leave it to the editing stage before I start to worry.

[ElizabethJames]

We're agonizing over this:

‘I wasn’t worrying about the bushes,’ said Allan. He’d taken to this kind of backtalk ever since he fell from that tree, and Kay didn’t like it.

Is "ever" ever superfluous . . . or is it a necessity?

[James D Macdonald]

Hi, Tasha --

First, you make do with what time you have. Just don't let thinking about writing substitute for writing.

Next -- the character with the relative who has the mental disorder: Write the book. Finish it. In the second draft, draw a red pencil line through all the references to that relative. Problem solved.

(Though the other two solutions you propose, writing a novel about that disorder or seeking therapy yourself, both have something to be said for them.)

Other than that .... don't worry about rambling in the first draft. (While other writers work in other ways) I find that rambling in the first draft is a happy and healthy thing. It gives you room to play and material to play with in the second, third, and fourth drafts.

Write, finish what you're writing. Revise. If you can do that, and be happy with what you've done, you've done what writers do.

[TashaGoddard]

Thanks, Jim. I think that is exactly where my problem lies - thinking too much about it. Looking back at my previous attempts, I have always got to a certain point - usually about 10 chapters, sometimes less - and then started on the editing and thinking 'What on earth am I doing here?' etc. etc. instead of finishing and then doing that. And then I tend to go buy a 'How to write X' book to find the answer and end up deciding that I need to start from scratch or completely scrap it start something new. This thread is much more useful than that; while you have also provided lots of useful exercises, this particular advice about just writing it, I think is the best.

So, I'm going to go do that now.

[James D Macdonald]

This is it, kids: The worst book ever.

Atlanta Nights (http://www.lulu.com/content/102550) by Travis Tea (http://www.lulu.com/travis-tea).

Read the Press release (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/1/prweb202277.htm).
See what the fans are saying (http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/620064.html).

<BLOCKQUOTE>"Fascinating. A total subversion of the most fundamental dichotomies of Western literature, in particular good/bad; an autodeconstructing textual engine that poses but never answers the unposable (but in today's world, far too answerable) questions. A full on assault on the centricity of such dominating ideas as quality, consistency, coherence, and that dirty books ought to give me a stiffy."
-- John Barnes</BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>"The world is full of bad books written by amateurs. But why settle for the merely regrettable? Atlanta Nights is a bad book written by experts."
-- T. Nielsen Hayden </blockquote>

<BLOCKQUOTE>"Don't fail to miss it if you can!"
-- Jerry Pournelle</BLOCKQUOTE>


<a href="http://www.lulu.com/commerce/addreg.php?fBuyContent=102550">
<img src="http://www.lulu.com/themes/common/images/icons/buynow_blue2.gif" border="0" alt="Buy Atlanta Nights at Lulu!">
</a>

[Trapped in amber]

Uncle Jim, how would you craft a query letter for this literary gem? I'm presuming that Travis Tea wrote one for his submission?:D
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

[James D Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, how would you craft a query letter for this literary gem?

Very, very earnestly.

In point of fact, Travis didn't have to worry about a query letter. Like poetry.com, PublishAmerica will accept anything you send them, while Lulu.com is just a printer and will take anything you send them.

In other news, Atlanta Nights has sold 75 copies. That's equal to what the average PublishAmerica book will sell over its entire life.

[TashaGoddard]

1052 words since yesterday afternoon

Might not seem like a huge achievement, but it is to me. Thanks for helping me move on and get past my overthinking problems. I'm fitting it in by doing a bit before starting work, doing a bit when I stop for lunch and doing a bit when I decide I have to stop work for the day. It might not add up to 2 hours all the time, but at least this way I can ensure that I do some writing every day.

As it happens, I think the character's relative I mentioned is actually turning out to be important and might well end up staying in. But I'm not going to worry about that until I finish the 1st draft (at this rate, possibly in 2 months, but we'll have to see, I'm just happy that it's flowing again).

[Jules Hall]

I think it's a lot for most of us. I generally consider a day where I break 1,000 words a good day. I tend to average about 600. At least, when I'm not revising, like I am now. Measuring productivity's a bit harder at this stage.

[TashaGoddard]

Well, that's encouraging - it didn't feel like much, to me, but then it's been a long time since I've done this properly - and then I didn't have word count, just a little typewriter. Of course, my 1052 might well end up at 52 when it comes to editing. I do type very fast and have taken on-board Jim's comment that it's OK to ramble in the first draft. When I write emails, blog entries, posts to forums, etc. (as you can see) I tend to ramble on and on and write paragraphs (or a single paragraph that should be split up!) on something that could have been said in a few words. In the past I have thought a lot about each sentence, or even each word, when writing fiction, and so been a lot slower. The idea that I can ramble and then cut out the cr*p later is really helping me get on with it. To be honest, at the moment, I'm not too concerned that I might get to the end and find it's all cr*p. I'm just happy to be getting the story onto paper (well, onto the screen at least) finally, instead of having it stuck in my head!

Good luck with your revising!

[three seven]

I'm with you Tasha - I'm terribly slow because I'll bash out three or four drafts of one scene before I move on to the next. I like to make sure the onions are cooked before I add the meat, so to speak.
I tend to find, though, that I generally do the exact opposite of what everyone else here does, so my chances of ever writing anything publishable look slim!

[TashaGoddard]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I tend to find, though, that I generally do the exact opposite of what everyone else here does, so my chances of ever writing anything publishable look slim!<hr></blockquote>

I'm sure that's not true. Everyone is different. What works for you, works for you, regardless of whether or not it works for a million other people or none.

I am finding it more gratifying (at this stage, at least), though, to just write and leave the worrying until later. It feels more satisfying to do a word count and realise that you've already written twice as much in a day, than you had in a whole two weeks prior to that. But that is me. Everyone is different. And since I've only just started this 'write, write, write' method, there's always the chance that I'll hate it within a week and go back to my overthinking slowness!

[James D Macdonald]

I tend to find, though, that I generally do the exact opposite of what everyone else here does, so my chances of ever writing anything publishable look slim!

Is what you're doing working for you?

And is what comes out the far end something that other folks want to read?

Those are the only two real questions in writing. The rest is all commentary.

[three seven]

You know, it kinda does work for me. As for whether anyone else wants to read it, well I just don't know. A lot of the time I suspect I'm writing for an audience of one, but I guess the only way to find out is to bite the bullet and post something. Aagh.

[Lenora Rose]

Hi, all. I don't think I've posted here - actually I don't think I've posted anywhere on the message board since I registered. But I've been lurking for a while now.

My main problem is getting down to the BIC. Working for myself, I have considerably varying workloads. Sometimes, I can have a few weeks where I only need to do a couple of hours' work a day; other times (e.g. the last month) I have to work 15-hours a day or more. Last Thursday, for example, I had to get up at 4am and work straight through to 5pm to complete two jobs in time for the deadlines. I then collapsed into a vegetable-like state alternating between watching TV, reading (including reading this thread) and sleeping for a few days, before starting on the next project.

Personally, if I were working 15-hour days, I wouldn't force myself to write at the end of them.

I don't use the BIC method. What I DO is keep a loose eye on how much progress I've made in a given time - usually about a week. If it drops below about 2k/week (A total I can usually cruise past in a day or two), I impose BIC for the next month, until I've got through whatever bit I was jamming on. If I try to BIC for too much longer, it can actually bring back the mental jam. Working towards an actual deadline is good, too - again, there's no pressure on a single given day, but there IS a way to chart whether you're "on track" or you've fallen behind.

There are several other techniques out there to keep you writing. BIC is the best for most people, but it might not be the best for full time hours or variable work times. Use anything that will keep you productive.

My not-so-secret vice is jumping from project to project within a few days -- or, sometimes, hours. On the one hand, at least it keeps me writing. On the other hand, it can slow down my progress in a given work. I also sometimes wonder if it makes it harder to focus on a particular character's personality, because I'm constantly hopping out of their headspace and into anothers'. Any thoughts?


On writing books: I find the way I judge whether a writing book is good is almost the oppsoite of what i would use for every other kind of pleasure reading - It's good if I feel the urge to set it down and start scribbling.

[James D Macdonald]

Welcome, Lenora.

I hope this thread has encouraged you to log off and start scribbling at least once....

[Karen Junker]

Congratulations on the Travis Tea book...what a great idea!

We had two writers at our conference last year who'd 'sold' books to PA. They were both angry and determined to get their next projects published by a real publisher. I'm so wary of small or new companies now...

[sc211]

Seeing Atlanta Nights on the "worst ever" list made me curious. Reading of it here brought me to checking it out. And then all I could do was think, "This is freakin' brilliant," and "I wonder if Uncle Jim did a chapter?" A few more links and what do you know - the mastermind lives right here.

You're the man, Uncle Jim. I mean, I once sent Poetry USA a poem dictated by my two-year-old nephew ("Rock! Wanna throw rock! Gimmie!"), and his mother got an acceptance letter from them, but this had to be so much more fun with everyone chipping in and the target so damn perfect.

Kudos to the king. They'll give you the Nobel Prize for Saving Us from PA for this. (I bet she breathes is getting more and more agitate.)

[snarzler]

Would trying to write the worst possible novel one could write be a good exercise to exorcize a writer's bugaboos? Or should a writer always strive for their best?

I like pounding out a very rough draft to get the story down and then adding and revising into a passable draft (something like what PA has of mine now) before I start my 'real' editing. In effect I write two 'first' drafts. I'm not looking for an end-all-one-solution but while I feel this works for me, it Does take longer and might it be why I have been told "we like the story, but it needs more work". Or am I not doing enough of the 'right' editing? And what is that?

This is a few questions jumbled together but perhaps kindly Uncle Jim could show me how to edit them more clearly?

Andrea 0]

[James D Macdonald]

"We like the story, but it needs more work" sounds very much like you need to play more on the noun-and-verb level.

So, study grammar, check your style, and get on with it. Analyse published stories to see what they are and aren't doing.

I'm afraid I don't have a magic bullet here other than "Do The Hard Work."

[Lenora Rose]

I hope this thread has encouraged you to log off and start scribbling at least once....

You had any doubt of it? <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif" />

So far I'm well on my way to having the Shakespeare memorized, and I'll be working on some of the bestsellers once the current reading pile drops a bit. Not sure about the key lime pie. it looks splendid but I AM trying to lose weight...

LRH

[James D Macdonald]

There's a low-carb version (http://www.fabulousfoods.com/recipes/dessert/piestarts/lclimemeringue.html) of that Lime Pie out there....

I gave the recipe to my friend April Fields, and she converted it.

So, onward!

[James D Macdonald]

Your story-fu is strong, young Jedi!

Not how I'd planned to gain fame, but hey, I'll take it: <a href="http://www.calendarlive.com/templates/misc/printstory.jsp?slug=cl-et-hoax5feb05&section=%2Fbooks" target="_new">LA Times</a> sting story.

[pencilone]

I love it! Well done! If you guys plan another one, please let me know as I'd like to help too. :rollin

[maestrowork]

No matter. You guys are famous now. And I predict Atlanta Nights will top the LA Times and NYT best selling list soon! Way to go.

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://writingcraft.deep-magic.net/article.php?id=54" target="_new">A great article</a>.

In the words of the Nihilistic Kid: "If publicity worked any less well or less often no one would do it at all."

[pianoman5]

Interesting, UJ. The article emphasises once again the value of being an established name among the reading populace, and how it's the single most important factor in book selection. It also reiterates the point that 'conventional' marketing, using the methods used by other types of business, doesn't really work in publishing. News of books worth reading is promulgated more by word of mouth - viral marketing, as web marketeers used to call it in their ultra-hype days.

But then, all professional marketers will tell you, 'I know that half of my marketing budget is wasted, I just don't know which half.'

I think book buyers are somehow resistant to advertising or cynical pressure of any kind and respond better to publicity. (Actually, that's true for most products, but the advertising industry has successfully buried that inconvenient truth and is still doing quite nicely, thank you.) It may have something to do with the fact that reading is a deeply personal experience, so recommendation is very much a matter of trust and we don't like people 'selling' books to us.

There was an article in the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/06/business/yourmoney/06book.html?oref=login&pagewanted=1&oref=login) the other day about the Chairman of Harper Collins, Jane Friedman, and how she wants to establish some imprints as brands that can be trusted even if you don't know the authors.

[James D Macdonald]

All imprints should be trusted, even if you don't know the author. That's the point of imprints.

Let me give you an example, from my youth.

Long ago, my income was $100/month. (I was a college student at the time.)

That left me enough room to buy one phonograph record every now and then, if I skipped eating for a week.

I liked (and still do like) folk music. Many of my favorites were on Elektra records.

So one day, after I'd saved my money, there I was in a record store. And golly! Here's a new record by a group I'd never heard of, on the Elektra label. I bought it.

I got it home -- and discovered it was unlistenable. Really wretched stuff. Not folk at all. Garbage.

I never bought another Elektra record.

Years later, I read an interview with some guy who had taken over the Elektra label. When he found it it was, so he said, "Old folkies at home." So he shook 'em up! Showed 'em something different! Changed everything!

Bastard.

[maestrowork]

Branding is very important in any business. When you have something working, you don't want to rock the boat too much. Look at Amazon -- they're expanding their business slowly, making sure that the brand Amazon still means something to their customers. It's still about books, even though now you can buy electronics and music and other stuff.

You go to Google and you expect certain things. As Google expands their business model, they're very cautious about their strategies...

And that's why publishers have imprints. It's part of the branding strategy. You know what to expect from certain imprints, even though they're all part of Random House. It's built in "word of mouth" -- a new book from Riverhead? You know it's going to be good...

[Writing Again]

In screenwriting a set piece is any short scene that sums up the entire movie -- The kind you would use for a trailer that would give the audience to know instantly what kind of movie they will be watching.

Most screen writers try for at least three set pieces per script.

I don't know that you need them in a novel, but it is not a bad idea.

[maestrowork]

In the plotting book I read, the author also refers to set pieces. In movies, a set piece is a climax, or mini-climaxes that lead to the final climax (he uses Star Wars as an example: think "Death Star" or the lightsabre duel or the "Luke, I'm your father" scene). In novels, you don't necessarily have to have set pieces, but it's not a bad idea, especially with popular fiction.

[pianoman5]

BTW, speaking of known names, Jim, I checked the catalogue at my local library (Mosman, in Sydney) to see if your august name turned up.

I was pleased to find that they have six of your books.
(The catalogue entries were actually in the name of Debra Doyle, with James Macdonald as the added author - cool being Eve's rib, eh?)

Now, if every library in the English-speaking world bought six of your books, you could go and order that red Ferrari. :D

[James D Macdonald]

When Doyle and I started writing together, we decided to use our real names rather than some joint pseudonym.

So the next question was, whose name goes first? Doyle is way ahead of Macdonald in the alphabet, and so would be shelved higher (closer to eye-level, near the start of the section) in the bookstores.

[maestrowork]

What if you have a name like Bob Zoolander? Do you need a pen name so your book doesn't get stuck at the bottom shelf?

[James D Macdonald]

If my name were Bob Zoolander, I'd use it.

(Being near the end of the alphabet doesn't hurt Jane Yolen.)

Having a memorable name doesn't hurt either.

(Actually, it's all probably folklore and superstition. So few things are under our control that when something comes along that is under our control -- the name on the cover -- we grab it with both hands.)

[Scott Janssens]

What's important is having all your friends face your book outward in the bookstores.

[JimMorcombe]

When I was a kid, I used to go to the library. After I'd tied up the horse, I'd look through the shelves for SF books. I quickly learned that the books were clustered alphabetically, so I could concentrate on just a couple of shelves.

Perhaps a publisher noticed the way I selected my books and mostly printed authors with names or pen-names within certain ranges. I think the trend has continued, although its less pronounced.

I'd go to the A's and grab my Isaac Asimov, Poul Anderson, etc. Then I'd rush to get my Robert Heinlein. Then I'd check out around Andre Norton and finally I'd check out the W's.

Sure enough, the new authors were all coming out right next to these established authors so I'd also take them home and read them.

[mr mistook]

I worked as a library page for four years, shelving books. It don't think there was a single section of the library that didn't have Asimov on the first shelf.

Apparently, Asimov knew everything!

He must have also done nothing but write from dawn to dusk for 30 years. He was all over the library.

[James D. Macdonald]

The posts from the old board, ported over:

James D Macdonald (http://p197.ezboard.com/babsolutewrite.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jamesdmac donald)
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For reasons that seemed good to us, we've set up a LiveJournal to discuss our latest Work In Progress, a novel called (working title) Mist And Snow due later this year to Avon/Eos.

www.livejournal.com/users/mist_and_snow/ (http://www.livejournal.com/users/mist_and_snow/)

See y'all there. (And here.)



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http://www.ezboard.com/themes/softsky/unread.gif Re: Foreshadowing vs Set Piece

Yeah, I remember grabbing an Asimov book at libraries as well...

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK

Read my reviews at:Ray's Reel Reviews (http://reelreviews.blogspot.com/) or Actors Ink Movie Reviews (http://www.nowcasting.com/actorsink)


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http://www.gifanimations.com/Image/Animations/Books/Simple_book.gif___1087617533334 http://www.ezboard.com/themes/softsky/unread.gif Re: What's in a name?

Here's a fun example of the ABM:

pbackwriter.blogspot.com/2005/02/opinions.html (http://pbackwriter.blogspot.com/2005/02/opinions.html) "I like work; it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours."
-- Jerome K. Jerome

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Asimov wrote so many books that some people didn't believe he was a real person. I read an "authorative" article somewhere twenty years ago that said he didn't exist and the name was used as a corportate front for a number of different writers.

I checked it out thoroughly. Just one guy. And he worked as a professor somewhere so perhaps writing was just his second job http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif

When (if) I grow up, I want to be just like him.
Jim Morcombe
Bored Elder


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http://www.ezboard.com/themes/softsky/unread.gif Re: Work In ProgressQuote:I read an "authorative" article somewhere twenty years ago that said he didn't existThey say the same things about Shakespeare. Ridiculous how the world works.

NTM61921


()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))# ~ ~ ~


(http://www.mistook.net/)

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HCONN....wow ...what a site...thanks for sharing that....

Makes me want to pull up my spine...get my act together

and write like a writer........thanks again.




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http://www.ezboard.com/themes/softsky/unread.gif Re: What's in a name?Quote:Here's a fun example of the ABM:ABM?Quote:pbackwriter.blogspot.com/2005/02/opinions.htmlWow. Remind me never to get on her bad side. http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif
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http://www.ezboard.com/themes/softsky/unread.gif Re: What's in a name?

ABM = Author's Big Mistake. The ABM is replying in any way to an unfavorable review.

I don't think that particular writer was committing the ABM. An ABM is more on the line of "I read your review and here's why it's wrong and, incidentally, you're a poop" not "I refuse to read reviews and think reviewers in general are poops."



Asimov was a professor of biochemistry at Boston University.

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Asimov was quite real--scores of people met him at science fiction conferences.

--
Lisa L. Spangenberg | Digital Medievalist
Celtic Studies Resources | www.digitalmedievalist.com (http://www.digitalmedievalist.com/)
My opinions are my own. | Who else would want them?

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I think the writer of that blog was just venting. Many writers don't read reviews of their work either. I guess that prevents them from doing the ABM.

(Unless you have a nasty review on Amazon that is totally untrue and done visciously by anyone with an Internet access... then you should probably ask Amazon to take it off... as Jenna did some time ago)

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http://www.ezboard.com/themes/softsky/unread.gif Re: What's in a name?

I suspect she'd got a bit of negative correspondence from reviewers after posting this earlier article: pbackwriter.blogspot.com/.../pass.html (http://pbackwriter.blogspot.com/2005/01/pass.html)

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http://www.ezboard.com/themes/softsky/unread.gif Re: fonts

I haven't read the whole enormous thread yet, but this is a great topic.
Quote:The point of this exercise is this: Have you ever gone to an art museum and seen the art students sitting there with their easels and oils, copying the great masters? The point isn't to turn them into plagairists, or to make them expert forgers. The point is to get the feeling into their hands and arms of how to make the brush strokes that create a particular illusion on canvas. Writing is no less a physical skill than painting.I've said this often enough. When I was painting, I'd go and do that. Now that I'm writing I copy at will to discover how a favorite author does things.
Quote:I except your word usage notes accept they do not apply to me. In effect, these rules do not affect my writings at all. Allot of other people, though, will learn alot from this. A lot won’t.

I would rather have someone write incorrectly and to censor them than to censure them. After all we have freedom of speech.
James illicits good thought on this so we learn and won’t write elicitly.
I write as that so don’t look at me like I’m wrong.Yikes. "Hiten mitsurugi style, Do-Ryuu-Sen!"

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I have a great fondness for St Martins Press. They publish several different genres as well as literary fiction. For years I would look on the shelf of the library and grab up any published by St Martins. Rarely was I disappointed.

Now that I have moved from mere reader to wannabe writer, I am wondering if they have imprints or are an imprint and if they should be the publisher I should approach first with my historical fiction. Of course, my book is not yet finished, nor do I have and agent, but I am thinking ahead.

What is the best way to find out about publishers? If you add in the small presses, there seem to be overwhelming numbers of them.

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http://www.ezboard.com/themes/softsky/unread.gif http://www.ezboard.com/images/posticons/pi_question_mark.gif Re: What's in a name?

What is the best way to find out about publishers? If you add in the small presses, there seem to be overwhelming numbers of them.

To know the artist, study the art.

There are around twenty thousand publishers -- but by the time you get to the end of the list you're looking at historical societies that put out an annual Old Home Days Cookbook.

So ... read books. See who published the ones you admire. See who published the ones that resemble your book.

Get their guidelines. Follow their guidelines. To the letter.

(Books like Writers Market and Literary Market Place are good starting points, but your own research is necessary. No one source is error-free or foolproof.)


There are only two things under your control as a writer:

How well you write, and
Where you submit.

Both should be the best possible.


book publishing (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/publishing.htm)


Edited by: James D Macdonald (http://p197.ezboard.com/babsolutewrite.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jamesdmac donald) http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/jim.jpg at: 2/11/05 2:32 pm

Lenora Rose (http://p197.ezboard.com/babsolutewrite.showUserPublicProfile?gid=lenoraros e@absolutewrite)
New friend
Posts: 4
(2/11/05 3:04 pm)
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http://www.ezboard.com/themes/softsky/unread.gif Re: What's in a name?

NB - Most of this was written before I read The second set of comments on that blog. To the second set, I will only say, yes, some reviewers are crud or will disagree with you. Some fiction writers are crud and will disagree with you.

but my comments to the first part stand:


Now, some ditz with internet access and a hair up an orifice for whatever reason wants to come and tell the world how he or she would write my book? Oh, be my guest. Only when you write that review, imagine how you'd feel if I came into your place of business, knowing little to nothing about how to do your job, and commenced to decide how well you did it.

Not just this one, but everyone who talks about why they don't read reviews or why reviewers have no right to dare touch their books brings out the "And what are your credentials?" Even if no reviewers had fiction qualifications, this is a false question, implying the credentials for writing reviews are exactly the same as those for writing fiction. If anything, I find writing reviews sometimes harder than writing fiction. It's certainly not something I do because it's easier than "real" writing.

As for her first sentence - all insults to random strangers aside - what she fails to understand is that reviews are not writers telling how they would write the book. Reviews are word of mouth. Word of mouth is one of the biggest ways to sell books. They're word of mouth by someone you don't necessarily know, which is a slight negative, but they're also a word of mouth that reaches far far more people than most avid readers could. And they can become as reliable as imprints for whether or not you, personally, should bother to listen. For instance, I'd been reading Green Man reviews for over two years before I became a staff member, because with the exception of a single reviewer (A brand name within a brand name, I guess), I found reviews from that source as reliable as in person word-of-mouth from my friends (Maybe more so, as some of my friends do not share my tastes in books or music). They were also well-written, and intelligent, and it was clear editors had a hand in the finished product. They were also picked up as blurbs, and read widely outside myself.

I joined in because I wanted to be able to spread my own word of mouth with a reputation that reliable. I didn't want my opinions to be Jane Anybody with a web site. I didn't want my favourite books to be picked up by a few of my friends and nobody else. I wanted people who would share my tastes to hear about them, and people who would not share my tastes to be able to know clearly to go elsewhere.

I didn't go into it to tell successful writers what I would have done with their books. If I must be a character in the story writers tell about their own books, they're free to make me a villainess, but they should at least get my motivations right.

James D Macdonald (http://p197.ezboard.com/babsolutewrite.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jamesdmac donald)
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I live here
Posts: 3197
(2/11/05 4:25 pm)
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http://www.ezboard.com/themes/softsky/unread.gif Reviews

Good point.

The reviewer isn't the writer's friend. The reviewer works for the reader.

To that end, there's no need for the writer to read the reviewer's works.

(And a reviewer who's wrong 100% of the time is more useful to me as a reader than one who's right 50% of the time. With the former, if the reviewer recommends a book I know to stay away while if he trashes it I know to go pick up a copy. With the latter I might as well flip a coin.)

James D Macdonald (http://p197.ezboard.com/babsolutewrite.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jamesdmac donald)
http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/jim.jpg
I live here
Posts: 3198
(2/11/05 4:58 pm)
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http://www.ezboard.com/themes/softsky/unread.gif http://www.ezboard.com/images/posticons/pi_question_mark.gif IMPORTANT NOTICE

No more posts to this thread, please. We're about to go flying over to the New Board. New posts won't go with us.

Anyone who wanted to copy this thread, do it now!


book publishing (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/publishing.htm)

[JennaGlatzer]

My, how you've grown, Jim! :D

Hope you like the new digs.

[James D. Macdonald]

It'll take some getting used to, but nothing I can't learn....

I hope.

[Birol]

Jenna? CC? Why does Uncle Jim's page count scroll off the page but the other threads, it condenses itself down?

[James D. Macdonald]

That's 'cause it's a Super Thread.

When is this board going live? Can we tell all our friends? (I have a link off my homepage, for example....)

[aka eraser]

I think Jenna's making the board-wide announcement tomorrow Jim but I suspect it's okay to tell a few of your nearest and dearest sooner.

[maestrowork]

Seems like there're still a few rough edges to iron out. The overrun page# thing is annoying. Probably easily fixable?

[MacAllister]

The livejournal charting the current WIP is completely fascinating, Jim. I'll look forward to following it.

[JennaGlatzer]

I didn't notice that before.

Need to go to bed. Someone remind me to figure that one out tomorrow if I forget, OK?

[aka eraser]

Is there a trick to seeing the page before the last one? The list on the bottom disappears in the mid-20s and I don't know how to get it to, for instance, page 118 (one page back from this one).

Ideas?

[maestrowork]

Frank, at the bottom (or in your profile), you can specify how far back to display the threads. You can specify up to "from the beginning." So if you want to see ALL 118 pages, you should do a "show from beginning."

[aka eraser]

That's what I have showing Ray. The problem is that it shows pages 1 through 20-something, then scrolls off my page. I can't click on any that go outside my screen. I guess what I should do is just have it show the last 10 or something.

[maestrowork]

Hmmm, you should be able to scroll your window to see the runoff pages...

Chunky!?

[James D. Macdonald]

It'll take all of us a while to learn how to use the new board.

[aka eraser]

DOH!

Didn't try scrolling the whole window. That works. Thanks Ray.

And here I was congratulating myself for my techno-wizardry for figuring out the sig thing in under 3 hours....

[ChunkyC]

Hi guys. I sent you a personal message on this Frank, but Ray has it dead on. I don't have all the admin controls yet, but there should be (I hope) a way to make the page list in a thread like this behave the same way as the thread list does when viewing a forum, with the little arrows at each end to let you move back and forth.

This kind of stuff is what I believe Jenna wants me to be able to play with. We just hafta get me them-thar controls.

[Medievalist]

I believe that there is an admin setting that allows the page list to wrap, instead of being in a single line.

If the page list wraps, then users will see, and be able to use, the > link to go to a Next page.

[JennaGlatzer]

I just submitted a bunch of questions to vBulletin, including that one. I can't find any options for page numbers-- either to wrap them or to condense them so it looks like

1 2 3... (last)

And am trying to also get Chunky to have full admin powers so he'll be able to play with things like this, too.

[katiemac]

Just wanted to let those in charge know that the wrap problem looks fine on my computer... hopefully the changes you made are permanent!

By the way, Jenna, the place looks great!

[JennaGlatzer]

I'm so proud! I fixed the wayward page numbers! :Trophy:

Also am working on changing the defaults on all the boards so you see all threads instead of just threads from the last 30 days.

[maestrowork]

:PartySmil I'm so proud of you, Jenna.

[Mistook]

Hello? I just got on board. What a nice way to start a Saturday afternoon. Do I have to subscribe to be able to use an avitar?

[JennaGlatzer]

Hi Pat,

Once you get to 50 posts and keep a reputation score of at least 10 (which basically just means you haven't caused any trouble :)), you'll become a "Super Member" and get some extra "powers," like being able to choose an avatar and custom title, and the power to add events to the calendar.

Just to keep this thread clean, though (my fault, too), please direct any other questions about the new boards over to the "Water Cooler Changes and Announcements" board.

[johnnycannuk]

Lurking for about a week, but I need to surface for a little air....I'm on 124 of the old forum...eyes...hurt....must...keep reading.....

Great job, you've inspired me to start again...

I'll be back soon...I hope.

:|

Mike

[THenry]

Hello. I read the whole thread months ago and lurked ever since. I took the board switchover as an omen to finally register.

[johnnycannuk]

Uncle Jim et al,

I've made through 142 of the original posts and the forum switch over (which occurred literally while I walked from one computer to th other in my home...now THAT took a few minutes to figure out!), and I hope I'm ready to ask questions and contribute.

Firstly, let me say that I am really impressed with the quality of the advice and pointers here. Uncle Jim, you have inspired me to take up writing, something I haven't done in years and had almost forgotten I enjoyed. Your advice had me saying "Yes,Yes YES!" "Of Course" and "That's brilliant" on almost every page.

I must say that some of the interactions in the forum where fodder for a book themselves...the "weird thread" and "Chris" who took your challenge of the Knight Story and was upset by the critique.

Man, talk about conflict!

Anyway, I'm off to scribble down some story and charcter ideas for my first BIC session in 15 years tomorrow morning.

Later.

BTW, I have an interesting book called What if? by Anne Bernays and Pamela Painter (1990, HarperPerenials) with some neat writing excercises I might try...Uncle Jim have you heard of it? If so, what do you think?

Mike

[Writing Again]

I'm confused but I'm glad this thread survived.

[HConn]

This forum doesn't have a very useful search function, either.

I'm trying to find a discussion of why writers shouldn't register their copyright on works they're submitting to publishers. I want to link to if for a nice fellow on another message board, but I'm coming up with bupkiss.

Can anyone remember where these discussions happened?

[PixelFish]

No, I can't remember, but the reason you don't want to do it is because A) the publisher will register the copyright for you and B) if you do register it before it's ever sold, you look like an amateur who has no faith in the publishing industry. A lot of people copyright because they don't know any better and they are afraid that the publisher will steal their idea, which is silly, because as soon as a publisher did that, then nobody credible would submit to them. There might be other reasons too, but I can't remember what they are.

[CindyBidar]

I don't know where it is either, but I seem to recall someone mentioning that it would look bad if, for example, you registered copyright in 2001 but didn't sell the novel right away, and it's still out there making the rounds in 2005. Might make some publisher wonder what's wrong with it.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

Cindy

[James D. Macdonald]

The discussion happened in the old board.

The reasons are:

a) It's unnecessary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is fixed in tangible form
b) It's unnecessary. No one is going to steal an unpublished book. (Several reasons for this, the chiefest one being that anyone who thinks it's publishable not only wants this work but wants your next one too.) If it's good enough to steal it's good enough to buy.
c) It will tell folks that your manuscript has been in your desk drawer or in the slushpile for the last ten years.
d) The pros don't do it.
e) Who wants to waste thirty bucks on something that's going to get rejected anyway?

To go along with this -- only submit your manuscript to legitimate publishers. You and they have similar interests: You both want to sell books to readers. Legitimate publishers have the practical ability to do it; and they need you.

[Zane Curtis]

On a related note, there's no point worrying about people stealing your ideas. And copyrighting a work is not going to protect your ideas anyway. They're a dime a dozen. What's rare is a well written, fully-realized manuscript.

[Dawno]

I am having a wonderful time reading through the lessons. However, even with staying up 'til the wee hours, I am only up to page 34. I'm not sure that I will ever be a novelist but I am writing again and find the lessons quite helpful. Has anyone indexed Uncle Jim's lessons somewhere so that they might be read straight through? I'm not too lazy to go through all 119 pages (and certainly shall in time) but I would like to be able to follow the syllabus separately in a more structured fashion.

Dawn

[SJB]

I love your sig, Dawn. That's from Hogfather, isn't it? One of my favourite Discworld books- anything with plenty of Death has got to be good for you. :)

Word documents have certainly been compiled, comprising all UJ's invaluable posts, but it would have to up to him to make them available, I think?

[Angie]

I would definitely be interested in such a file, too. So much great information here!

[James D. Macdonald]

By all means, collect my posts. Just a few requests:

First, leave my name on them.
Second, don't publish them elsewhere.
Third, remember that I can't give permission for any other person. I only own my own words. Other people's posts belong to them.

[Denis Castellan]

I'm not sure if this is going to be interesting but anyway...

I started reading this thread a month ago and finished it (on the old board) two weeks later.

I read about the BIC method, which I had read about before, and thought something like "oh, c'mon... just by sitting in front of my screen and keyboard, and even if I don't know what to write at that time, I'll write ? nah..." (free translation from french skeptical thoughts ;))

But I tried. Had nothing to lose, right ?

I've been trying for almost three weeks now, and... it works.
I missed a day or two, and it's not always two hours, but I write !

Just need to keep on doing it, now :)

[Dawno]

I love your sig, Dawn. That's from Hogfather, isn't it? One of my favourite Discworld books- anything with plenty of Death has got to be good for you. :)

Word documents have certainly been compiled, comprising all UJ's invaluable posts, but it would have to up to him to make them available, I think?

OT: Thanks SJB, I use this sig at another forum I frequent as well. The first bit is the motto of Unseen University, and the last is Death's. The middle quote, as you said, is from Hogfather. Now that I've seen it up I should do some formatting work, it's a bit big and runs together.

/OT: Although word docs of the lessons would work I was thinking of a simple link index of the lesson posts in this thread to make it an easy task to click to them one at a time and do the exercises. I wish I had the time to do it myself. Who knows, maybe I will.

Thank you, Jim for the permission to share them if properly attributed. One point of clarification, by "don't publish them elsewhere" do you mean if one created an index and posted it here in AW it would be ok?

[Savannah Blue]

I'm just popping in to say hello and get the first post here done.

Thanks, Jim for taking the time to have this thread.

[James D. Macdonald]

For those who aren't getting enough Weird in their diet: Read or Die (http://www.rodthetv.com/).

Next -- by "don't publish them elsewhere" I mean, don't put the posts themselves on other forums, or print 'em in a book to peddle at fairs, or anything like that. An index (here or elsewhere) would be a good thing.

Welcome to Savannah.

And hi to Denis -- yeah, it works, doesn't it? If you're a writer, put yourself in a situation where you can write. The rest follows.

[johnnycannuk]

Wow, truly strange, yet oddly compelling.

I'm expecting this to be in Tarantino's next film.

You don't suppose this is some kind of metaphor or allegory do you?

;)

I feel the urgent need to read more. Uncle Jim, how did you find this?

Mike

[aplath]

Uncle Jim,

I finally got through this thread after a little over a month of finding it. Pretty cool stuff.

Although it is dificult for me to use the BIC method due to a demanding day-job and two lovely but also demanding young kids at home, I've been trying it for the past weeks with good results. Not two hours, not everyday. But it's been steady so I guess that's a good thing.

Just wanted to say hi and thanks. Gotta go back to write. :-)

Andreas

[Tim Johnson]

Uncle Jim,


Just wanted to stop by before getting some shuteye (I’ve got night shift in 9 hours). Anyhow, I was hoping you wouldn’t mind nudging me in the right direction with some things (and/or giving me your blessing <smiling> ).


I’ve been working on my rewrite for a little while now, but before I continue, I need to know if what I’m doing is risky, as far as pitching it to a publisher goes.


Keep in mind the elements that I’ve put into play: supernatural, psychological, crime, mystery, a touch of horror here and there, and a somewhat epic medieval fantasy feel toward the end.


Do you think it’d be okay to convert my 77,000-word story to a 10,000-word, 2-character POV introduction in the form of a teenage girl’s diary and an FBI agent’s field report or private journal? That way, I’d have the two main characters' POVs before combining the other 110,000-word story with the 77,000-word deal thus restoring it to its original state (the way it was meant to be before “you know who” got a hold of the first part). Also, that’d put me at the 120,000-word goal, which I so desperately need to adhere to according to a very great man with JAWS as his avatar.


Here’s another thing: if I treat the 77,000 part by changing it as mentioned above, do you think that It’d be all right to leave the 110,000 part as is—written from my perspective? I feel that if I change the second part into something else that it’ll loose its power. There’s an awful lot of epic action going on during that section of the story.

One thing about formatting and I think I’ll pretty much have it down. Do you start at the very top of a page, place your chapter, and afterwards, skip down more than two spaces to start your story? Or how should this be done? In the past, I’ve read in books where info was given about this and it’d say to skip 5 lines down from the top of the page, place your chapter, skip a few more lines, “and then” start your story? I’ve been reading this thread, and every since have been attempting to ride my work of “and then”. It was littered with it.

[James D. Macdonald]

I've got nothing but advice for you, Tim....

First bit being that I haven't read your book, so I can't tell.

Here's what you do: Try. Rewrite as you've outlined, put it aside for a month, then reread. Make any changes you think are necessary. Then try it on your beta-readers.

Call it Draft #whatever. If it doesn't work, try something else in the next draft. (And at the same time, during that month it's in your desk drawer, start your next book.)

All I can say is try. If it works, then it's right.

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh yeah, formatting.

Every chapter starts on a new page.

Drop half-way down the page, put your chapter title or chapter number, then doublespace and start your chapter.

All that room is for two purposes: to allow room for the editor to make notes, and to get the page turned faster.

[detante]

Hey mods, any chance we could make this thread a sticky note?

[Tim Johnson]

Thanks, Uncle Jim…

…Bunches and bunches of thanks! Now it’s off to work I go. I can almost hear that phosphate mine calling me now.

[James D. Macdonald]

Hey mods, any chance we could make this thread a sticky note?

I'd prefer not ... if it ever loses steam and falls down and off the first page due to lack of posts, it deserves to sink. Keeping it on the first page will give me incentive to post more.

[detante]

Keeping it on the first page will give me incentive to post more.
In that case, is it possible to tie an anchor to this baby? ;)

[Kasey Mackenzie]

Just wanted to add my thanks for a wonderful, relevant, very helpful thread. So--thanks Uncle Jim! I've been lurking in this thread for quite awhile as I caught up on all the past posts, so figure now is as good a time as any to de-lurk. I'm sure I'll have questions in the future.

[SJB]

In that case, is it possible to tie an anchor to this baby? ;)

LOL. Good one, Jen. :)

[JuliePgh]

Jim,

Have you ever found that editors in general have a preference for shorter first chapters?

My first two chapters have already gone through several revisions, yet I find them longer than the chapters in the rest of my novel. My biggest worry with my first chapter is that the length may create the effect of a slow read, despite the action. I can cut the first chapter in two, but the scenes relate and, IMO, form a chapter. I don't believe there's any information dumping.

If anything, I believe it's the building of a relationship and setting the scene which makes it appear slower than the pace in following chapters. I've had 3 people read the novel, all have loved it (one read the second half in one sitting because she couldn't put it down). But no one paid too much attention to the first chapters. I had one comment that my reader, "expects the beginning to be slower as it takes time to get used the characters and setting."

Should I consider cutting the first chapter in two to give the reader a breather? I also worry that these longer chapters migh give the editor a wrong impression about the rest of the book. Do I force my beginning chapters to be similar to the latter chapters?

Thank you.

[James D. Macdonald]

I don't know as editors consider the length of first chapters ... but they do consider the pace.

This is mostly because the readers in the bookstore, scanning your book, are considering the pace.

Your beta-readers may have given you the benefit of the doubt when they went on despite a slow beginning. The random reader won't.

(In a second-or-subsequent book, the people who read and enjoyed your first book will give you the opportunity to start more slowly. For a first book ... move fast out of the gate.)

So ... rather than cutting the first chapter in two, try speeding it up by cutting out the parts that are just there to build the relationship and set the scene. The relationship and the scene should develop by themselves over the course of the following hundred plus pages.

For every word, ask yourself, "Is this here to move the plot along, or to horse the reader up on the situation?" If it's the latter, cut that word.

[paritoshuttam]

Unlce Jim,

I vaguely remember you cautioning against participating in writing contests as one way to build your writer resume (to put in query letters). I wonder why you said that. Wanted to ask it earlier, but it slipped my mind.

thanks,
Paritosh.

[James D. Macdonald]

Why not contests?

Because unless it's something major, like the Pulitzer or the Nobel Prize, who's heard of them? The East Amberg Community College Literature Award isn't going to impress anyone.

Next, if your writing is good enough to win a contest, it's good enough for someone to buy. Actually being published does give you a worthwhile credit.

Third, writing contests that cost money violate Yog's Law.

Fourth, writing contests may blow your First Rights if the winning entries are printed somewhere.

==============

Every publisher in the world has a contest every day. The cost of entry is postage, and the prize is paid publication.

[maestrowork]

UJ, I'd add though, it might be a good idea to enter a contest if the prize is a contract with a major publisher...

[Dev]

I'm new to the thread, but I made sure I read all the way through the history. First, Thanks to Uncle Jim and to everyone else sharing their views. I agree completely with your views on contests. I submitted a short story to a contest a few months ago (and won), but looking back on it, I'd definitely have done better sending it out to a magazine. If any of you would like to read it, it's posted at www.saugus.net in the Halloween Story Contest.
I'm about hip-deep in the first draft of my first novel, and this thread has been very helpful (not to mention amusing at times).
I'd also add that Sometimes the Magic Works by Terry Brooks has been a help for me in ways that On Writing (Stephen King's book mentioned waaay earlier in the thread) hasn't.
Thanks Again!
--Dev

[Kate Nepveu]

I'd also add that Sometimes the Magic Works by Terry Brooks has been a help for me in ways that On Writing (Stephen King's book mentioned waaay earlier in the thread) hasn't.
In what ways?

[Dev]

Maybe it's just that I'm more of a planner. If I remember correctly, King generally downplays outlining in general, while Brooks praises seriously in-depth outlining more. For me, outlining seems to be the way to go. Of course, I read On Writing right after it came out, so my memory of it may be a little spotty. I guess it all just boils down to technique--doing what works for you.

[Kate Nepveu]

Yes, my major quibble with _On Writing_ was that King seemed to think of "plot" only as a verb, and a particularly nasty one at that--something that you force on a book.

I know some people who can't do outlines at all--they say, if they knew everything that would happen along the way, they wouldn't be interested in writing the book any more. But it's good to know that Brooks' book has useful things to say about outlining for people that want to go that route.