Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[HConn]

It's my own romantic subplots that don't seem to work. Sorry that was unclear.

In my WAIP (Work Almost In Progress), the two leads are going to start falling for each other. I know the characters and know this is going to happen to them.

But I've never been able to write one effectively. I don't see a burgeoning love relationship as being like any other kind of relationship.

[Yeshanu]

I think the problem with romantic subplots is the author's tendencies to be "nice" -- in my WIP, I have to go back and add more tension and conflict to the romantic subplot, because first time through, I was too easy on the characters.

If you treat the romance as a source of conflict, rather than making it harmonious, it will enrich your novel, even if it's just a subplot.

[evanaharris]

Then, the whole experience takes a hard hit because the subplot was totally unnecessary. :: cough :: Troy :: cough ::

That whole movie was an abomination.

[evanaharris]

HConn: Ahh...that explains it. I wish I could help you on that count....

[ChunkyC]

I think the problem with romantic subplots is the author's tendencies to be "nice" -- in my WIP, I have to go back and add more tension and conflict to the romantic subplot, because first time through, I was too easy on the characters.

If you treat the romance as a source of conflict, rather than making it harmonious, it will enrich your novel, even if it's just a subplot.
Yep. And the conflict can be not only between the pair romantically involved, but with how that involvement complicates all aspects of their lives. She hates his friends is a pretty obvious one, but the particulars of every story should suggest ways to use the romantic relationship to add tension.

[maestrowork]

My romantic subplot is always full of conflict (internal and external). Nothing nice. But there are fine, romantic moments.

[publishorperish]

It's my own romantic subplots that don't seem to work.

My romantic stuff (not subplots, because I've never attempted to write a novel) never work either, but I think its because of the lack of romantic subplot in my personal life.

I have a question, stop me if this has been asked before: How do you know what story to write? Do you know before you start the book? Does it just happen?

I'd like to try my hand at writing a novel (mostly to see if I can do it.). I write short stories. How transition into writing a much longer piece?

[macalicious731]

Nothing nice. But there are fine, romantic moments.

Mine's just plain nothing nice. Poor characters.

POP - The question has been asked before. Where, I can't remember, so I'll answer it anyway. To start, I usually have some image in my brain (the climax, in my WIP case) and then the story builds around there. Once you have your characters, I know how they fit together, how they're going to act, etc.. and story!

An oversimplification, of course, but really that's all there is for me.

[James D Macdonald]

Whew, Publishorperish, that's a tall order. (I've been trying to answer this question for the last hundred odd pages here.)

A novel isn't just a Really Long Short Story.

One way to write a novel would be to just start. Write every day, and when you come to "The End" around page 300, you have a novel. Then you revise the snot out of it.

This is as good a place as any for me to put in the Fire Door Theory of Novels.

Imagine a guy sitting in a movie theatre, enjoying the show. For some reason he gets up and walks out the exit door. It slams shut behind him, and locks. He can't get back into that movie, and for him that show is over.

That's the point where your novel starts.

He wanders around looking for a new movie. He goes in, perhaps after some trouble finding a theatre, he catches some of the middle of another movie. But he isn't enjoying it. He walks out the exit, the door slams shut, he can't go back. But it's dark, cold, and raining outside. Maybe that movie wasn't that bad -- but there's no going back.

You're now in the middle of your novel.

Our hero wanders more, finds a friend who knows where there's a show he'd really like, loans him money and dry socks, and together they sit down in another really good movie just as the opening titles start.

That's the climax of your book.

Maybe that works for you, maybe it doesn't, but that's one way to look at the shape of your novel.

(Failing that, put an interesting person in an interesting place, give that person an problem, then follow him or her around until all the problems that arise are solved.)

(This is also the time for me to say, Start at the Beginning of this thread and read forward. Lots of good stuff in here.)

[publishorperish]

thanks! I'll finish reading the thread and pick your brain if I come up with any unique questions. You're cool for doing this, btw.

[Elizabeth Genco]

Reading through 114 pages of posts calls for some kind of celebration, or at least some booze. Having no booze to speak of, I'll settle for a quick introduction.

My name's Elizabeth, I live in New York City. I write a zine about playing Irish fiddle in the subways, called PLATFORM (http://www.support-your-local-busker.com). Been hard at work on a graphic novel for a little while now (that's where most of my 2 hour writing sessions go these days; at this point I just wanna be done with the mofo), but have plenty of other projects in the pipeline, including a bunch 'o short stories, a novel (which I'm working on during my lunch hour -- no kiddin'), and various/sundry projects with my comics artist boyfriend (http://www.packrabbitpress.com) (he'll be tackling sequential art chores on the graphic novel previously mentioned).

Spent the first pass through the thread skimming and taking lots of notes. Tons of great advice here and lots to keep a girl busy. As it's plotting that intimidates me most, I've got a few nights of chess ahead of me...

---

[James D Macdonald]

Welcome, Elizabeth!

Sometimes I wonder if I should do an index to this thread.

Other times I wonder about extracting the good parts into a single file, an e-book or summat.

Then I look at everything else I have to do and put off doing anything.

Again, welcome.

[evanaharris]

Yumm...Graphic novels...

James, whatever happened to the Giant E-Book Project that everyone was supposed to be working on? Sounds like it just kinda fizzled....THAT would be one hell of a resource...

[Yeshanu]

I've said this before in another thread which has since sunk to the bottom here, but I've cut and pasted about the first seventy pages of "meat" from this thread (UJ's posts, most of Hapi Sofi's, and a couple of others).

If anyone wants me to email them the doc, I can be reached at ruthcooke@hotmail.com

I'll try and update it in the near future, but no promises.

[James D Macdonald]

People who are looking for copies of Murder by Magic can see if it's on the shelf of your local Borders bookstore by using the locator at <a href="http://www.bordersstores.com/search/search.jsp?tt=gn" target="_new">www.bordersstores.com/search/search.jsp?tt=gn</a>

(Yeah, yeah, I know, it's shameless self-promotion, but hey, I'm an author. I'm allowed.)

ISBN 0446679623

You can use that same locator to look for your favorite books, too. Your other favorite books.

[Elizabeth Genco]

Yeah, graphic novels are the bomb. Well, storytelling's the bomb, but graphic novels especially. There's interesting tricks that go into sequential storytelling that don't show up in things like novels, but there's a lot that's the same -- the structure of storytelling certainly is. I'm still getting my sea legs, as 'twere, but it's good fun and I've been lucky to have some incredible folks working in mainstream comics to learn from.

Thanks muchly for the welcome, Jim! My style of notetaking for this thread is as follows: a single text file for each subject, with the date of the post and the page before each note so's I can get back to them easily. Kept on a server that I have command line access to, from anywhere. Written in vi, 'cause I'm a nrrd like dat. Looks like I have 132 files, in text, that add up to slightly over a half a meg. It's a goodly amount.

I have to say that all the bickering about Courier really baffles me. I've always been a huge Courier fan. I use it all the time, of my own free will, for everything. Because it looks like a typewriter, damnnit!

Anyways. As I've read this thread, an axiom that my fellah came up with keeps coming to mind. He's got it taped to the drafting table. And that is:

"Your first power is in your choice as to where you put your greatest attention."

Makes sense, yeah?

[Elizabeth Genco]

MURDER BY MAGIC isn't over at Amazon.com, I've noticed.

This makes me very grumpy.

Well, okay. Kind of grumpy. ;)

So nice to see Rosemary Edghill out and about. Those Bast books of hers are among my favorites.

[James D Macdonald]

MURDER BY MAGIC isn't over at Amazon.com, I've noticed.

Amazon is scrod again. As usual. Borders has it, Barnes & Noble has it, Powell's has it. What can I tell you?

(I don't see another dime unless the book earns out, and after that it's a pro-rated share of 50% of the royalties. Number of pages in my story divided by number of pages in the anthology times 100%, times 1/2 of the money. Short stories aren't how you get rich. You do 'em for love, or for practice, or to do something that you can't get away with in a novel.)

(I do have a funny story about that. My elder son wanted a mountain bike for his birthday (this was some years back). Well, household finances didn't look like that ... then the day before his birthday we got a check, royalties from a short story in an anthology. $800. Wow. We took that as a Sign From On High that he was supposed to get that bike, and so he did.)

(That story was "Uncle Joshua and the Grooglemen," currently reprinted in New Skies (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/new_skies.htm), available in both hardback and paperback. Buy one! Better still, buy a dozen! Do your Christmas Shopping Way Early!)

The next anthology with one of our stories in it is scheduled for February.

Now there was something else I was going to talk about tonight, but I've been overcome by a gloomy thought: By the time he was my age, Edgar Allan Poe had been dead for ten years -- and by then he'd invented the modern short story, the science fiction story, and the detective story.

[James D Macdonald]

"Your first power is in your choice as to where you put your greatest attention."

That's a really great saying.

(After that, at least with writing, it's where to direct the readers' attention.)

We did several comic books, back a few years ago (and scripted and got paid for more that never came out -- volatile business, comics).

We can see several similarities between comics and novels, though, other than the obvious one that both tell stories.

You have your dialog. That's in balloons.
You have your narration. That's in the little square boxes.
You have your description. That's in the pictures.

You have your point of view -- this is quite literal.

And in comics, as in novels, the amount of detail is related to the narrative speed. When things are going fast, look at your illustration. It's far less detailed. In the slower sections, amount of detail picks up.

[pdr]

Grateful thanks, Jim, for cheering up one of my very depressed students. I sent her your words re the new novelist and the sales spiral and how to get round it. She's had good sales on her first two novels but the third has been rejected by her publisher as too different from her usual humourous chick lit style. She was crushed because her publisher is a large multi-national company and she thought they knew best. Now she is cheerfully looking for a new publisher and possibly a pen name for her new type of book

By the way I still have and use a Word Perfect set of files containing all your words of wisdom cut and pasted from this thread.

[James D Macdonald]

...rejected by her publisher as too different from her usual humourous chick lit style.

That's definite Pseudonym Time. I have different pen names that I use for various genres, because I don't want to confuse the readers.

I'm not the only one who does that, either.

[Gala]

re JK Rowling avoiding the death spiral, Uncle J responded,

Two things: She's a break-out best seller, and she's writing a book a year.

The Potter books have been 2-3 years apart, with more in progress.

I say it's the break-out bestseller that keeps her publishable on such a scale, and at least for now, immune to the death spiral.

I'd like to see her write a non-Potter book.

[Elizabeth Genco]

Comics. What's special about 'em? What makes 'em different than novels? This is one of those things that I've thought about a lot (being a fan -- though I haven't been one for very long, actually -- and spending a lot of time with comics folk will do that to you). I can dork out and talk about comics at great length, but since this is about novels 'n all, I'll keep the thread drift to a minimum.

The big difference is the obvious: they're visual, whereas novels are not. What does this mean? This means that you can use VISUAL things to tell your story. In fact, you should, if you're writing comics. One of my big pet peeves are those comics that might as well be novels, for all the visuals they've not got. If you wanna write a story where cops are sitting around the precinct, playing jokes on each other and eating doughnuts and flipping through papers, then for God's sake, man, write a police procedural, or even a television script for one. Or, put another way, twelve pages of two dudes sitting in a car flapping their gums makes for Very Bad Comics.

(Some people would argue with me on this one, but I'm pretty staunch in that opinion.)

With comics, you gotta have action that you can SEE. And it's not necessarily all about action, per se -- there are all kinds of visual fun and games you can play to make your story points. That's part of the fun of learning how to write 'em -- figuring out all that stuff. I'm constantly trying to figure out how to tell the story with more visuals and less "talking heads". It's tough!

There's also usually much stricter limits on page length and page count and things like that, which leads to a certain economy of storytelling. With a comic book, you're usually stuck with 22 pages per issue. You can't go on and on and on. Or if you're writing a graphic novel, you've got multiples of 8.

Story structure is the same. (I daresay a story is a story is a story, no matter what medium it's told in.) Some folks aren't as down with the 3-act story structure, though, and that drives me kind of nuts. You couldn't really get away with that kind of crap in most everything else. And there's something very satisfying about a story with a beginning, a middle, and an end. I feel cheated without it. Linear narrative ahoy!

Another big difference between the comics world and the novels world: self-publishing is not only perfectly acceptable, it's encouraged. These days (and I can't speak for Days of Yore, of course), you often gotta show that you can do work before you'll get work, and have to show that you're committed, and the way you do this in the comics community is to put something out yourself. The DIY spirit is very much alive and kicking over there. But that's a whole 'nother thing.

Comics digression over, bailing out... :)

[evanaharris]

I think there's a significant amount of overlap between the artforms. Movies, music, comics, novels, short stories. Everything can teach you something about the other. Movies are great for really hammering home the basic plot structure, because it's so obvious, and it's so easily digestible.

[cwfgal]

I've been lurking and reading posts here for months (and still can't catch up!!!) but I'd like to come out from hiding and join in the fray if I may.

My name is Beth, I'm an ER nurse (got a medical question for your WIP--I'm your gal) and writer living in Wisconsin. I had 3 novels published by one of the big guys in the late 90's before falling victim to something kind of like the death spiral but with some mergers, acquisitions, and broken promises thrown into the mix. I have a 4th novel that I POD/self-published just for the heck of it. There's a fifth novel that I'm giving away in serialized form in my newsletter and my current WIP is...well...a work in progress.

Mind if I join in?

Beth

[sc211]

Hey Uncle Jim,

I liked your Fire Door Theory of Novels, but I got a different view on the last part.

You wrote, "Our hero wanders more, finds a friend who knows where there's a show he'd really like, loans him money and dry socks, and together they sit down in another really good movie just as the opening titles start.

That's the climax of your book."

If what the hero wanted is a romance, or a home, then yeah, cuddling up in a new life with dry socks is the climax.

But if it's more of an action novel, perhaps it'd go something like this:

...and together they sit down in another really good movie just as the opening titles start.

Then the guy who was pestering the hero so much in the first movie shows up and tries to weasle in on the hero's date (or at least his popcorn), and a fight ensues in which the hero triumphantly turns the projector into a projectile.

That's the climax of the book, and then the hero and new friend head to her apartment to cuddle up before a DVD player.


And hey Beth, welcome! Nurses are the unsung mothers of the world.

[James D Macdonald]

Mind if I join in?

Welcome to the party!

(I'm a volunteer EMT, myself.)

Get comfy. Here's a beer. If you want to come out from under your Lurk Hood, would you like to mention the names of your novels?

(It's really true, folks: it's harder to sell a third or fourth novel than it is to sell a first one.)

This isn't for you, specifically, but your comments reminded me that I was going to recommend a couple of articles to y'all:


<a href="http://www.sfwa.org/writing/restart.htm" target="_new">Jump-Starting a Stalled (Or Dead) Career</a>

<a href="http://www.sfwa.org/bulletin/articles/stalled.htm" target="_new">Stalled Careers, Writer's Block, and Monsters Under the Bed</a>

Those are far better bits of advice than Jane Doe Austen's whiney article in Salon ever offered.

[James D Macdonald]

Then the guy who was pestering the hero so much in the first movie shows up and tries to weasle in on the hero's date ...

Sure, why not?

The important thing isn't that we're at the movies, the important thing is the firedoor.

Y'see, there has to be a set of defining "you can't go back" moments in the book. Ones where status quo antes isn't an option. One where the protagonists can't say, "To heck with this" and go back to their seats and be passive.

Take Moby-Dick for an example. One firedoor is when the Pequod pulls away from the shore. At that moment Ishmael can't go back to being a schoolteacher. A second firedoor is when Ahab appears, and forces the crew to swear that they will sail 'round the shores of Hell itself, but they will catch the white whale. The third firedoor might be when Moby-Dick is sighted and the crew launches its boats.

The protagonist does something. He or she is in motion. (Note: this can be purely symbolic or psychological motion, but motion there must be.) The protagonist has choices, and "Screw this, let's get some popcorn" isn't one of them. The door has closed.

[maestrowork]

The protagonist has choices, and "Screw this, let's get some popcorn" isn't one of them.

That means your stakes must be high. (internal or external, depending on your story -- external is easier because it "forces" your hero to do something. Internal is harder, because by default your character does have a choice.)

High stakes are usually in the form of: love, greed, hate, and their variations (revenge, obsession, lust, death, loss, etc.)

[detante]

(It's really true, folks: it's harder to sell a third or fourth novel than it is to sell a first one.)

Are there steps a new novelist can/should take to avoid the Dreaded Publishing Death Spiral and other nightmares? I suppose the simple answer is to make sure each new novel is so good it sells better than the last. But are there other things to consider?

-Jen

[James D Macdonald]

But are there other things to consider?

Rising sales curves are the master item, of course, but:

Publish with more than one publisher.

Keep short stories coming, to keep your name fresh, and introduce you to new readers. (The number one reason someone buys a book is because they've read and enjoyed a previous work by the same author. This previous work can be a short story.)

Be willing to accept a lower advance from a publisher who can promote your work effectively, rather than a higher advance from one who may be less effective.

Keep the novels coming too.

And -- make every work your best work. Don't get lazy.

Beyond that, there's an element of luck. The public is fickle.

[ChunkyC]

there has to be a set of defining "you can't go back" moments
This resonates, Uncle Jim. :thumbs I tend to look at my character's choices in the classic 'fork in the road' way. This adds a dimension, in that once your character chooses one 'tine' of the fork, the others disappear.

[cwfgal]

Get comfy. Here's a beer. If you want to come out from under your Lurk Hood, would you like to mention the names of your novels?

It's probably easier (and takes up less space here) to just give my web site (www.bethamos.com). My first 3 novels are all out of print but if anyone really wants to read one they can be had used for as little as a penny from Amazon.

Thanks for the beer and the welcome.

Beth

[cwfgal]

And hey Beth, welcome! Nurses are the unsung mothers of the world.

Thanks for the welcome (though there are a few male nurses I work with who might take issue with the above).

Beth

[James D Macdonald]

Hi, Beth --

I assume your works have all reverted?

Have you considered finding a smaller publisher who does reprints who'd like to have 'em? Somewhere amongst America's 4,000 small presses there has to be one.

But maybe not. The natural state of a book is Out Of Print. Time to change your name and restart?

[macalicious731]

Jim, that brings up a question I've had for ages but always forget to ask.

One of my favorite books is classified as Out of Print. It's unavailable in bookstores, etc., but it's on Amazon as "ships in 24 hours," so it's readily available. I've ordered a couple of copies, because I tend to give it as gifts... but I guess I just don't understand how if it is Out of Print, I can still get it from the publisher?

Of course, I'm certainly not complaining! It's just a little conflicting.

[James D Macdonald]

...if it is Out of Print, I can still get it from the publisher?

No, you can't get it from the publisher. I expect that there's a Hidden Hoard in a warehouse. Does Amazon have a case in the back somewhere?

One of the Vicious Publisher Tricks, to avoid reverting a book, is to put a book Out of Stock (technically that's between printings ... but if this goes on too long, if it's permanently out of stock, it should be listed as Out of Print).

Your contract should have something in it about how long a publisher has to bring a book back into print after it's out of stock. When you have a book that's permanently out of stock, you order a copy direct from the publisher. If they can't provide it, and don't bring it back to print in the contracted time period, you can ask for the rights to revert. Then you can resell the work to another publisher.

(Note: The "rights" here aren't the copyright. You've kept that. This is the right to print in hardcover, in softcover, in North America, whatever rights were granted in the section of the contract cunningly labeled "Grant of Rights.")

Why a publisher might list a work as Out of Stock rather than Out of Print: to hold onto the rights, just in case you suddenly got hot and they wanted to bring out a big edition. This is yet another of the Horrors of the Literary Life that plague authors.

(One of the things agents do is keep track of these things, to either get back the rights so the book can be resold, or to press the publisher to return it to print, so that it's once again in the bookstores. The way publishing is supposed to work, the publisher can hold onto the rights only so long as they're actively selling the book. They stop selling, the author gets the rights back.)

[Ashnistrike]

I would just like to announce that after 7 years, 8 months of work, I have finished my first novel. I started out with a bit here and a bit there, and had a couple of years when I worked on other stuff, but over the last few months my pace has been steadily increasing. It's still relatively slow (as much BIC time goes to being a newbie academic), but at this point another novel of the same length would take me 1-2 years. This board has been a part of that, so I wanted to thank you.

The first edit, which I did as I went along, is done. Next is the "set it aside while I wait for the beta readers to catch up" edit. My read-it-as-I-go-along betas, waiting for me to write the climax, were literally begging me for the lives of particular characters and planets, which I took as a good sign. The two who have now gotten to the end found it satisfying, which I also take as a good sign.

While waiting a couple of months to re-edit, I have started on the sequel (following Uncle Jim's advice). Just to warn people, beginning from a blank page is still hard the second time. Picking the POV characters is still hard the second time. Trying to figure out where to put the first scene is still hard the second time (the "fire door" for the second book is actually the climax for the first book, although it's not obvious at the time). The difference is that this time I already know I can do it.

Ashni

[Ashnistrike]

About writing romantic subplots when you yourself don't have one...

Do you know any happy couples? Do you know any unhappy couples? Do you know any couples who are still in the first glow, or who haven't quite gotten together yet? If so, watch them. Heck, talk to them. If you had a character take up knitting, you'd do your research; romance is no different.

The suggestion, offered somewhere upthread, to use romance as a source of conflict, was a good one.

Beyond that, I'll offer a couple of what I fondly imagine are hopeful points. YMMV. People who aren't in relationships often imagine finding the person of their dreams--someone who is everything they've ever hoped for. However, after about two weeks in a real relationship, you start noticing that the "perfect person" has warts on their back, leaves their laundry on the floor, or has inexplicable political opinions. Working relationships are based on the understanding that imperfect harmony is okay. Nonworking relationships (many of them, at least) are based on the assumption that the actual "perfect person" is still out there. Similarly, nonworking romantic subplots are based on the assumption that people who were in an actual relationship would be perfect for each other, would only argue about the big plot-related things, and would either be a match for each other in all ways or else dramatically star-crossed.

When I went to start my book, I knew that two of the characters would get together by the end. At the time, I thought this was simple and sweet. A little later, I started dating my best beta reader. This was instructive. We are from slightly different American cultures (WASP and Jewish). Almost all of our background is identical, yet the differences still lead to conflict. (Just as an example, due to differing expectations about hospitality, it took me several visits to realize that her parents liked me). My characters were from, respectively, a slightly puritan empire and an anarchy that lacked the concept of monogamy. I revised. A lot. And I married my best beta reader. As research, it was extremely helpful. :grin

Seriously, I do believe it's just as possible to write a romantic subplot while single as it is to write death-defying action plots without having been through them yourself. Research is good. Imagination is good. Most importantly, realizing that people keep being people, and being flawed, no matter what they're doing, is what makes it work.

Ashni

[macalicious731]

I can't wait to finish the first one so I can't get to this point:

The difference is that this time I already know I can do it.


Thanks, Ashni! And congratulations!

[maestrowork]

Are there steps a new novelist can/should take to avoid the Dreaded Publishing Death Spiral and other nightmares?

:rollin Sorry, but I'm still trying to sell my first one. I can't look forward so far ahead. :b

[maestrowork]

Ashni, congratulations! You've made it so far. The beginning has only begun! :-)

[cwfgal]

I assume your works have all reverted?

I have the rights back on the first three, yes. Just got them about a year ago. I'm hanging onto them for the moment to use as an additional enticement when I start hunting for a new agent. (I just fired the one I've had for the past 3 years.)

I want to get more of the current WIP done and polished before I start looking. The current WIP is in the same genre as my first 3; the one I self-published is different (which is one of many reasons I decided to self-publish it.)

As for a name change...that was discussed with my first agent (who has since retired) when I was dumped by my first publisher. We even had one picked out. But for a number of reasons, things never went any further. I opted to use my real name for the self-pubbed book, hoping to maybe tap into a handful of the readers I accumulated with the first 3. But it's been so long since those came out that I doubt I'll be able to do much tapping. That keg has run dry.

Beth

[wwwatcher]

Publish

I'm working at getting a handle on the short story to novel question too.

It got a little clearer for me when I finished a short story that seemed to have the potential to get bigger. It had interesting characters in an interesting situation and although it had a satisfactory ending there were questions that I and my readers were still interested in having answers to. This was when I started thinking about writing a novel.

Don't know if this helps, but it can't hurt.
Faye

[wwwatcher]

So, what's this?
Have we got the running title for when this thread gets to the ebook version?

"Learn Writing with Shameless Jim"

It's got kind of a "Shoeless Joe" ring to it.

Ha.

[James D Macdonald]

We've turned short stories into novels on two occassions. In one, the short story turned into the first three chapters ... then continued. In the other the short story made up the central portion of the novel, and bore scant resemblence to the original.

Turning short stories into novels isn't the easiest thing I've ever done.

[RajanYK]

Say you've been writing for a while and have basically written two novels (or you finish one and while that's out you finish another). Assuming both are publishable, is there any drawback to submitting both novels to different publishers?

I'd think that it would be the most time-efficient method, but is there anything to be gained by saving that other novel and submitting it to the same publisher that accepted your first novel?

[Risseybug]

The Potter books have been 2-3 years apart, with more in progress.

Actually, I don't know how long it took her to sit down and write those books. They have been released every 2-3 years, with editing and publishing.

I DO know that the last word of book seven has been written for some time now. I was watching something on her, oh, I guess it was a year or so ago and she showed the camera the folder with the final chapter in it (the editor now has all the pages, so nobody nosey can see them first).

But they will be released in that same span, to keep the public buying. I think now she is just spending time with her little ones. I would like to see a non- HP book by her too, but I have a feeling it's going to take some doing to shake off Hogwarts.

[macalicious731]

I would like to see a non- HP book by her too

If I remember correctly, she's interested in adult novels after the series is complete. "Bits and pieces" of some are already written; it's just a matter of whether or not those pieces are what she works on next.

By the way, Jim, thanks for that Amazon explanation. It doesn't say "Out of Print" anymore like it used to, but every bookstore I visit still says it is. I'm sure Amazon's got their hoard... right now there's only one left in stock, but more are on the way... As long as it disappear completely, I'm content!

[Beaver]

In a book I read by Jerry Cleaver (Immediate Fiction), he said the only thing one needed to do to turn a short story into a novel is to add more characters. More characters leads to more interactions and more conflicts, resulting in more story. I have never tried this, but I assume it is correct. Most novels have far more characters in them than short stories.

Obviously, this is not the only difference between short stories and novels, and it is much easier said than done, but it makes sense.

Beaver :party

[cwfgal]

I'd think that it would be the most time-efficient method, but is there anything to be gained by saving that other novel and submitting it to the same publisher that accepted your first novel?

Most editors are interested in the longevity and productivity of any new authors they bring on board. They don't want to acquire individual books so much as they want to acquire successful, productive writers. So I would think there would be an advantage in having a second novel ready to go. If both books are similar in genre I'd be inclined to save the second one and use it as an enticement - it shows you're not just a one-book wonder. But if the two books are vastly different in terms of genre, then targeting two different editors might be feasible. Assuming a best-case outcome in which both novels are acquired, I would think one of those books should come out under a pseudonym.

Beth

[Yeshanu]

To go back to comic books for a minute:

I'm constantly trying to figure out how to tell the story with more visuals and less "talking heads". It's tough!

I think that novelists could learn a few tricks from graphic novel/comic book writers. Talking heads aren't any more appealing when you have to imagine what they look like yourself -- I still like a book with lots of action and other visuals in it.

[James D Macdonald]

One of my fellow instructors at Viable Paradise (http://www.sff.net/paradise/) recommends Understanding Comics (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006097625X/ref=nosim/madhousemanor) by Scott McCloud as an aide to understanding novels and stories in general.

[James D Macdonald]

What horror shall we talk about tonight, good friends?

How about "Reserve Against Returns."

Now you know, when you sell a book to a publisher, you get a nice monetary advance. (If you don't, you're either in Special Circumstances, or Working In the Bad Part of Town.)

Now this is an "advance," which is to say, an advance against royalties. A loan. When your book earns back that money and repays the loan, only then do you get additional checks. (This is the happy state known as "earning out.")

Now publishers don't like to write checks. This is an observable fact. (I know: I've written entire novels faster than they can write a check -- I can tell there's going to be another Sorrows of the Author's Life episode based on that.) So, to save themselves from writing any more checks than necessary, they try to figure things so that how much you'll probably earn in royalties is about equal to how much they pay you as an advance. If they're wrong, if your royalties don't pay back the advance, that's okay. You don't have to repay them. (And if someone wants you to pay back the unearned portion of the advance you are definitely in the Bad Part of Town.) (Next trivia point: It's entirely possible for publishers to make a profit on books that don't earn out. Don't ask why or attempt to understand it; only know that it is true.)

But suppose they're wrong in the other direction? Suppose you earn more than the advance. Happy day, right? Money in the pocket, let's go down to Burger King and it Supersized?

Not so fast, Bucko.

Remember, bookstores don't buy books, they only display them. At any moment they could return those books for credit. If the publisher has already paid you royalties for those books, then they lose. Publishers hate losing.

So, enter the Reserve Against Returns. This is money that you've earned, that they owe you, that they hold onto on the off chance that copies of those books will be returned and it'll turn out that they didn't owe you that money anyway. What the publishers know is how many copies they shipped -- they don't know what will come winging back.

Exactly what the reserve against returns is, is a secret. They won't tell you how big a reserve is being held. But due to my skill with correlating information, keen observation, and a drop or two of sodium pentathol, I have a fair idea of the numbers.

Before we continue, you need to know that royalties are generally paid semi-annually (in November and April), and that royalties are paid on the cover price of the book, regardless of what discount the publisher gave to the distributor or the bookstore. (There are exceptions to this, but they are small, minor, and rare.)

Now ... here you are, happy writer! You have gotten a $5,000 advance for your novel, against 10% royalties, and the book is selling for $10 a copy. And, in the very first royalty period (because your book is both briiliant and exactly what everyone wants for their birthday) some 5,000 copies sold. Joy, rapture! Your book's earned out, right?

Not so fast, bucko. Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. Maybe every one of those people who go the book for their birthday will say "Yech!" and return it to the store. So the publisher figures, in the first royalty period, a 100% reserve against returns. No matter how many people bought, you aren't going to see a dime.

How about next royalty period?

They firgure a 75% reserve against returns. (Now they've already been paid for those 5,000 copies, and they've gone back to press and shipped more, but y'know? Maybe they'll be returned.) By now 10,000 copies have shipped, but the publisher says, "Hmmm ... could be returns, y'know" and only credits you with $2,500. Your book has been out for a year, and has brought in $10,000 in royalties, but sorry, chum, that advance still hasn't earned out.

Six months later, the reserve against returns is going to be 50%. Your book continues to sell, now 15,000 copies have shipped, but only $7,500 of the $15,000 you've brought in will be remitted to you (after subtracting the orginal advance, the publisher cuts you a check for $2,500. (He'd rather have the money in his account earning interest for him, than in your account paying for macaroni and cheese.)

Another six months -- your book's been out for two years now -- and the reserve against returns is down to 25%. Say you've sold another 5,000 copies in the last six months. That is to say, by now, 20,000 copies shipped, and you should have $20,000. But reserve! You're only credited with 15,000 of them, so your royalty check is $7,500.

Finally, next royalty period, the reserve against returns drops down to 0% (they've made tons of money off you; the publisher's paid off his yacht and his kid's braces). Say you sell another 5,000 this royalty period. By now you've sold 25,000 books, total, and only been paid $15,000. So now you catch up, with a nice check for $10,000. From now on, a book shipped is a dollar, and all's well.

Except this is a very unrealistic picture I've given you. A book that sells 10,000 a year for three years? Wonderful, but books tend to go out of print lots quicker than that. It isn't at all uncommon to get the final payment, the reserve that the publisher has been holding onto all that time, at the same time you get the notice that your book has gone out of print. When none are printed or shipped for a year, and they give back the rights, it's hard for 'em to argue that they're still waiting for returns.

Shall I talk about Basket Accounting?

That's when you sign a multi-book contract. In basket accounting, no book earns out until they all earn out. Anything above the advance that the first book brings in is applied to the unearned advance on the other books in the contract. You don't see a dime until after the entire advance for all the books is paid back.

So, anyway, that's the latest episode of As the Stomach Churns, the Horrors of the Literary Life.

[Yeshanu]

That's when you sign a multi-book contract. In basket accounting, no book earns out until they all earn out. Anything above the advance that the first book brings in is applied to the unearned advance on the other books in the contract. You don't see a dime until after the entire advance for all the books is paid back.

:ack

Is it better then to sell them one at a time, even if you're planning a trilogy or series?

[James D Macdonald]

Is it better then to sell them one at a time, even if you're planning a trilogy or series?

Yes, but see if you can.

Y'see, the publisher is betting that you'll do well -- so they try to get as many books as possible under contract all at once, so you're getting First-Timer advances on all of them. They get three books cheap, rather than your price going up each time.

(The happy fellow in the story above, who sold 25,000 books on his first novel with the $5,000 advance -- it would be reasonable for him to come back and ask for a $25,000 advance next time. But ... if the publisher was cagey and offered him a two-book contract for $10,000 ... would he say no to that? And they've just saved $20,000 on the next book's advance.)

Next hint: If you aren't ready to walk away from the table at any time, you don't have any business negotiating.

<HR>

It is possible to negotiate a multi-book contract that isn't basket accounted. Just be aware that for some publishers that might be a deal-breaker. That's where having an agent comes in handy. The agent should know what the clauses you can negotiate are, and which ones the publisher won't budge on.

[ChunkyC]

:wha

No wonder Isaac Asimov had such big sideburns, he couldn't afford a razor until long after they'd become his trademark, and so he had to keep 'em. :grin

[evanaharris]

*bastard EZBOARD deleted my post because of HTML comments that IT put there...

ANYWAY...

**************

But, of course, Chunky, you wouldn't have it any other way...

I've already resigned myself to no money. Hell, I'm an English major, and they don't make any money, either. Why should I expect any different as a writer?

[arrichmond]

Hi all!

I am very new to these boards and have been working my way through the excellent discussions so far (I'm up to page 47 at the moment...).

I hope you'll forgive me if this has been answered in pages 48-116, but I need to know...:huh

How do people deal with a character's thoughts?

Do you place them in "" "" marks? eg

"That's strange," he thought

or do without them? eg

That's strange, he thought

The novel I am working on (my first...) is written from the third person, and involves a detective returning to work after the death of his father. I want to represent his thoughts as a way of revealing certain parts of his character, as well a introducing a couple of other characters.

Thanks in advance for your responses...

PS and special thanks to Uncle Jim for this thread...

[James D Macdonald]

How you represent a character's thoughts varies. Most commonly, I think, they're italicized, but as long as you're consistent, and the reader isn't confused about what's being spoken aloud and what's just being thought, it doesn't really matter.

Here's a suggestion: Pick up a recent book from a well-known author. Read it. See how he or she shows characters' thoughts. You do the same.

[Risseybug]

What do you do when everything you are writing is complete crap? I have a good idea, a good start and good characters. For some reason they seem to be stagnating in this holding pattern. I put things on the paper, then when I go back and look at it, I go "ICK", what the hell is THAT about?
I think I am on my way to working it out, but is there an exercise or method that you would recommend for overcoming this hole I am digging?

[Gala]

Touchy feely: Give yourself permission to write crap.

Go get 'em: Be glad you recognize crap when you see it. Many don't.

Common sense: Practice makes perfect.

Carrot and stick: Talent is fueled by discipline.

Literary: All first drafts are... (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&q=all+first+drafts+are+@#%$&btnG=Search)

AW deletes a word in my link. Get it by googling All first drafts are sh*t with correct spelling.

[paritoshuttam]

Hi,

I would suggest using italicised thoughts only if there is a small amount of thinking to be done, and if there is some important revelation or discovery done in it. Pages of italicised thoughts are distracting and not easy to read.

It isn't that hard to write thoughts/feelings. What works for me in third person POV is:

Make that person do something. Then put his thoughts down simply, no need to tag them with "he thought, he felt".

e.g.
Neo was shocked to see his name appear on the monitor. How did they know his name? Someone must be watching him all the time. It was eerie.

Hope that helps.
- Paritosh.

[Risseybug]

Thanks Gala, I feel much better now.
Last night I conducted an interview with myself about the book. Yep, sat there and talked to myself. Amazingingly the book came into clearer focus. I guess that was what I needed - to actually say what the book was going to be about rather than hash it out in my head.

Yeah, the first draft will still be crap, of course, but a much better grade of crap.

[arrichmond]

Thanks Jim and Paritosh

I'm haviong a read of a couple of my fave books now, but evern just changing athe majority to the way Paritosh suggetsed has made the flow of the first couple of chapters much better. Cheers

Alan

[karenl]

:smack Hi, all. I've been following along with the thread and come to a point where I want to toss something out to chew on. I'm currently writing a mystery novel. I have the locale. I have a protag. I know how the victim died, who killed her, and why. I know who the victim is. (None of these last items is known to the protag at this point, of course.) I'm aiming for something that's a bit on the location-heavy side of things. (My spouse, who can't stand to read any fantasy I write, loved the first two pages of this and mentioned Hillerman. Yay! he likes it!) And I guess from all the talk that it's some kind of a procedural. My question is, I got the protag to the area where the body is discovered and he's going around asking questions and stuff. It's feeling kind of stuck, though, and I'm not sure if that's b/c of the spiritual conflict I suspect my guy's gonna have by the end--a man of the cloth is tarnished, and you know how that bothers folk sometimes--or if it's b/c he hasn't met the girl not-of-his-dreams or if it's all of the above and besides he needs to encounter more opposition than just the confusion/lack of info he has now. I have into'd the fact that he has a married brother who's trying to pawn off a puppy or three on him from the family pet who just spawned, and whose wifey is always trying to set him up with Unsuitable Women who give him screaming claustrophobia. The spiritual bit just occurred to me, but I think it may be a real thing for this character.

Do y'all think I'm composting and the answer will come if I just keep typing cr*p to myself in sequential "brainstorming" files or is there something that sounds missing to y'all? Ideas? And where falls the line between using recognizable, "real" localities and fake ones? What about the need for such community fixtures as pastors and doctors--if I use the "real" locales and invent new staffers for them, is anyone bothered? I'm already thinking I have to invent a gate in the miles of fence along US 281. Maybe.

Help?

Karen

[evanaharris]

Invent all you like. Don't worry about it. No one cares if you use real locales and invent people to work there.

And if you're feeling stuck, through something else into the mix. A new character, someone that doesn't want the "priest" asking questions, or a dinosaur on the loose, or an asteroid, or a zombie...or...you get it.

[Yeshanu]

Karen,

It sounds like you're composting at this point...

But go ahead and write crap, because otherwise the composting stage could go on forever. (This is coming from an expert composter...)

Get the first draft down on paper. When it's written, you'll see very clearly what the inner conflict of your protag is.

[maestrowork]

Yup, keep writing. Let your characters speak to you, tell you what they want to do. Allow yourself to write crap -- this is a first draft.

When you find yourself getting stuck with a character at one place, try something else: Introduce a new character? Move him around? Write another scene without him in it (even if he's a first person protagonist, write a scene that doesn't involve him... but it's part of the story... later, you can just pretend you didn't write that scene but it helps you develop the story/backstory, or characters)? Write some back stories? Etc. Etc.

[Risseybug]

LOL. I like that way of looking at it.
I have to say, Karen, that I feel your pain. Crap is a way of life for the writer, I suspect. I don't remember having this problem with my last book. But this one is better already, sans the crap parts.

I needed to just step back and ask myself "why?" Why is this person doing this thing right now? What would be the next logical thing to do?

I like the other suggestions of writing something else. Do a fanfic on your own work. Hmm.. might try that.

[HConn]

Karen, start building the conflict. Make sure you have conflict in every scene. I suspect that it will feel less like composting then

Good luck.

[pianoman5]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I needed to just step back and ask myself "why?" Why is this person doing this thing right now? What would be the next logical thing to do? <hr></blockquote>
I think this is one of the most important things we have to bear in mind when writing fiction.

Plot is all about 'And so...', rather than 'And then...'

When we're being creative I'm sure most of us write plenty of 'and then...' material. That's what wild ride first drafts are for. The trick is to recognise afterwards the stuff that doesn't belong or doesn't fit, relinquish our pride of authorship, and ruthlessly expunge or fix it.

As Samuel Johnson said:

"Read over your compositions, and wherever you meet with a passage which you think is particularly fine, strike it out."

[Elizabeth Genco]

Touchy feely: Give yourself permission to write crap.

"Touchy feely" or not, I've found that this one is really useful. I have a little handwritten note on my bathroom mirror that reads:

"I hearby give myself permission for my writing and storytelling to be really, REALLY bad."

Otherwise, I may not write at all.

And I ain't havin' that.

[WeightlessTiger]

Jim, thanks for all the posts you have made in an effort to help us new wirters. I just started reading this thread in the past few weeks and have gotten to page 42 so far. Your advice has been of great value to me because, although I have been writing technical reports for close to 20 years, I have just started my first fiction novel. After starting my novel, I did lots of research into ways to improve my writing and to learn about the business of publishing. Your thread has proven to be the most usefull tool for me so far.

Thanks.

[James D Macdonald]

Good friends --

What I've been up to lately ...

My mom died a week ago Wednesday, after a protracted illness (cancer). The funeral was Saturday, the interment Monday (1,200 miles away), and the reading of the will and appointing of the executor yesterday.

This has led me to be remiss in several of my commitments, posting in this thread not the least of them.

I'll be at <A HREF="http://www.sff.net/paradise/" target="_new">Viable Paradise</A> all next week. When I get back, more activity from me, eh?

Rather than filling this group with expressions of sympathy, please consider making a small donation to the American Cancer Society.

-- Jim

[HConn]

For anyone who wants to donate, here's the place to do it. (http://www.cancer.org/docroot/DON/don_0.asp)

[James D Macdonald]

Here are some post-workshop sales (http://www.sff.net/people/greg/vppubs.html) by some Viable Paradise graduates.

Their successes are their own, but I still feel proud of them.

[MiltonPope]

A parody of exposition-heavy science fiction stories:

www.shrovetuesdayobserved...light.html (http://www.shrovetuesdayobserved.com/flight.html)

--Milton

[karenl]

I've progressed in my understanding of the problem. (It was the Pollifaxen that helped with this.) The stuckness was caused b/c the tale had reached the point where the initial small problem turns out to be the lead-in to the bigger Problem, the vast suppurating abcess of corruption that the intrepid hero must lance and drain. I had to realize that the larger issue was there. Now I'm putting down the lead-in to the Bad Guy Lean-on scene that gives a clue. As happens the clue and the leaning on are in response to what ought to be a stray item. I can't go fast just now b/c the tree must continue extending its roots first, I'm not sure exactly what the connection between the mess where my guy actually is and where the death took place will be. I just know that it's there.

And yes, I do need to go back over chapters 2 thru 4 and refine their focus.

Uncle Jim, your thread here is a big help. But I think I may have wasted all that typing practice on the Party Chapter in Fellowship of the Ring. <G> Maybe I should be typing out the first chapters in a different style of book.

[James D Macdonald]

Hi, all.

I'm back from the workshop.

Here's the <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/gtrout/43655.html" target="_new">first review</a> by a student.

More when I recover some....

<HR>

Addition: A <a href="http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/groucho760/detail?.dir=ddd9&.dnm=a13b.jpg" target="_new">photo</a> of me. Is this ego, or what?

Addition two: <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/yhlee/156601.html" target="_new">Another Student Report</a>

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://www.sff.net/archives/newsgroups/sff/workshop/critters-volcano-bar-and-grill/00000068.html" target="_new">Originally posted here</a><HR>

This overview will be so abreviated and simplified that it'll almost count as a parody of the real story, but this is it.

Cast back your mind to those thrilling days of yesteryear. We're looking at the 1930s now, the Great Depression. Books were a luxury item, mostly available in the "book department" of department stores. There were fewer than a hundred bookstores in the USA, located only in major cities. The Book-of-the-Month Club provided reading material to those who subscribed in the heartland. Public
libraries, supported by tax revenue, provided the other source of books that most people could find.

But there was another source of reading material, one which was available in every town. Those were the newspapers and magazines. And the newspapers and magazines were put on newstands, in drug stores, in bus stations, by what were called Independent Distributors, or IDs.

Now the IDs handled time-sensitive material. Yesterday's newspapers are fishwrappers. Last week's copy of Life, you couldn't give away. The IDs would pick up the day's papers from the printing plant, and drive them out along their circuits. They paid the printer for so-many copies. But there's always some left over. You don't want people to come to your drugstore and not find a copy of the Herald and this week's Time, would you? And the IDs didn't want to pay for stock that didn't sell. So they got credit for the unsold copies. To prove that a copy was unsold, they would tear off the front cover of the magazine, or the masthead of the newspaper, and return only that (the rest going into a Dumpster).

The grocery, or drugstore, or bus station, or newsstand, owner wouldn't have to worry about stocking periodicals -- a guy in a truck would show up every morning, or every Monday, pick up the unsold stock from yesterday or last week, and leave today's, or this week's, stock. The store owner only paid the driver for the ones that sold, and didn't have to pay to have stuff on his shelves. Easy source of cash for everyone.

Now, in those days of the late 1930s, there were giants in the earth. And some of them were Max Schuster, Dick Simon, Ian Ballantine, and others who noticed that there was this distribution system already in place. At first the paperbacks were lower-cost reprintings of existing hard covers. Later came paperback originals. But these fellows saw that by making paperbacks available through the ID system, they could make a bundle. And so they did.

This also made paperbacks strippable. Unsold copies would have their covers torn off and returned for credit on the next order of books. They were treating books exactly like magazines. The ID system wasn't set up for returns, and so there were no returns. Those books that didn't sell were stripped and replaced by others that might sell better. Think of a paperback as a funny-looking magazine and you'll get the right idea.

Paperback covers reflected this, too. You were wondering about all the girls with large bosoms and scanty clothing? The covers were being designed to appeal to truck drivers, the guys who were actually choosing which books to put on the racks. (There was also standard advice to paperback writers in those days to show up at the warehouses where the IDs picked up their stock at four in the morning, bearing coffee and donuts, so that the drivers would remember Joe Author as a good guy, and maybe take another carton of his books around. Remember: people don't buy what they don't see.) Books were all the same size to fit the standard wire racks.

These were mass market paperbacks. Mass market, as opposed to "the Trade," that is, the bookstore trade. Trade books were whole-copy returnable. Hardcovers are trade books. Trade paperbacks are whole-copy returnable (they're sent back to the warehouse, restocked, and shipped to other bookstores).

Printing a hundred thousand copies of a paperback brought the per-unit cost of a paperback down so that you could still make money if you threw away half of the books you printed. The IDs provided a way to put a hundred thousand copies in front of potential buyers. The IDs varied in size from some that owned fleets of trucks and covered half a state, to others which were one guy in a stationwagon who covered one side of town. The IDs tended to know their markets pretty well, and knew to stock more romances in the drugstore next to the beauty parlor, more action/adventure in the bus station near the Army base, more science fiction at the news stand by the high school, and so on.

(Please note that for the IDs books were never more than a sideline: They were far more interested in making sure there are multiple copies of TV Guide beside every supermarket cash register in America than selling Jay Random Writer's books -- books were there because the IDs were already sending a truck to these different places, and the truck might have some spare room after the copies of that morning's newspapers were loaded.)

This happy situtation took us through the forties, the fifties, and the sixties. Books went out in great numbers, were sold in great numbers, and everyone was happy, more or less. Yes, the books had shelf-lives that depended on whim of the truck driver, but whaddya want? And there were turf wars, and Mob influences, and much that was less than Kosher, and the books had covers that you wouldn't want your mother to see you reading. But this is America!

Several things started to happen after that -- the rise of the malls brought bookstores right to mid-size towns. You no longer had to look for books at the grocery store. Maybe Waldenbooks wasn't that great, but compared to a wire-rack at the bus stop it was heaven.

The malls made Piers Anthony a best-seller, with the lease-line dumps offering pre-teen porn at lunch-money prices. Their time came, and departed. Now we are seeing the rise of the superstores. We've all heard of Amazon.com, right? All of Amazon's sales equals that of just two Barnes&Noble superstores. Put not your faith in princes, nor yet in on-line sales. If you can get your book into Amazon but can't get it into Barnes&Noble, it's game over.

Then the world changed for the IDs. Out in Seattle, the Safeway corporation was dealing with some forty IDs for various books and periodicals at its various store locations. So one day the Safeway chain said to the IDs, "One month from today, we will begin doing all of our business with only one of you. Start bidding."

"You can't do that!" said the IDs.

"Watch us," said Safeway.

And soon enough, rather than the patchwork of IDs in Seattle, there was only one, the rest bought out or bankrupt. And this wave spread across the nation, so that where there had formerly been hundreds or thousands of IDs, there are now perhaps a score; near bankruptcy from their fight with the other IDs for survival, less profitable because they had to offer deeper discounts to the stores to be the one that would be given the contract. And they didn't know their markets well, and instead of hand-selecting which books went into which slots where, turned to safe and reliable choices -- big name authors, reprints of best sellers -- and the implosion continued. Grocery stores couldn't compete with mall bookstores on books. The grocery stores have been going back to what they do best -- selling groceries. There are not only fewer IDs filling wire-rack spinners, there are fewer spinners for them to fill.

We are now coming out of that period of flux. The mass market paperback has been wounded, some say mortally, but the trade has expanded, so that we're now seeing rack-sized trade paperbacks -- that is to say, they have exactly the same trim size as those paperbacks designed to fit the wire-rack spinners, but are whole-copy returnable. Impossible to tell at a glance from mass market, right
down to the glossy lurid covers.

This story, you may notice, has little to do with techology -- the ability to print many cheaply -- and a great deal to do with distribution. Recall the adage that amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics? It's the same in bookselling. Amateurs talk printing, professionals talk distribution.

[James D Macdonald]

Again, orginally posted elsewhere, over two years ago....

<HR>
This story, you may notice, has little to do with techology -- the ability to print many cheaply -- and a great deal to do with distribution. Recall the adage that amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics? It's the same in bookselling. Amateurs talk printing, professionals talk distribution.


And where, you may ask, does this leave vanity/POD books from the majority of vanity/POD publishers?

They're neither strippable for credit nor whole-copy returnable. They don't fit anywhere into the distribution system. Nor do many of them have standard discounts. So ... they're never going to show up on wire-rack spinners, since the IDs don't have a mechanism for ordering. They aren't going to show up on the bookstore shelves since they aren't returnable. And because of that and the fact that they don't have standard discounts, the bookstores that order them would have to set up at least two accounting systems -- one for each vanity/POD publisher, and one for every other book in the store. Small wonder that few bookstores are even willing to order vanity/POD books -- if the customer decides, when the book comes in four to six weeks later, that he doesn't want it, the store's stuck, they've had to do special bookkeeping on it the whole way, and if the customer does take it they've made less money on the whole transaction as a percentage of cover price than they would with any other book -- while costing more in resources. Barnes&Noble, which partly owns iUniverse (though they've been dumping their investment and now own a far smaller part) has a policy of refusing to order iUniverse titles.

This brings us around to Bookstore Economics.

The books on the shelves at your local bookstore didn't cost the bookstore owner a dime. They are on consignment from the publisher. The publisher sends around sales reps, the bookstore decides how many of each title from each publisher's catalog they want to stock, and the publisher ships them.

The bookstore sells some of those books, and reports to the publisher how many were sold. The ones that sell -- with a standard discount of 40%, the bookstore sends in 60% of the cover price, and keeps 40% for themselves. For deep-discounted books (certain best sellers, others being highly promoted) the discount is 60%, so the bookstore keeps 60% of the cover price. That's why you can see bookstores offering New York Times Bestsellers for 50% off, and they're still making money -- 10% of cover price times an Awful Lot of Books adds up to some serious coin.

Publishers can offer these discounts because when you print a lot of books the unit price is very cheap indeed.

Authors with standard royalty deals get their royalty based on the cover price -- never mind if the bookstore sells them for 10% off, or 50% off. That's another place where vanity/POD publishers in general screw authors -- they offer
royalties on "net," the amount that they get from the bookstore, rather than cover price. Since they have to offer a discount of some kind (though few offer the standard discount) the author is making a higher percentage of a smaller number -- often in terms of real money the vanity/POD author is making less per sale than a standard royalty author makes on a book with the same cover price.

Okay, back to the bookstore. After a while, if a book that's on the shelf isn't selling, if it's a trade book the bookstore owner sends it back and gets a new title to put in its place. If it's a mass market book the bookstore owner tears off the cover, sends that back, and orders new books to put in its place. How long this cycle is depends on the store. Superstores tend to have far longer shelf times than mall stores. Independent bookstores are all over the place on this.

Let's see -- publishers also pay the bookstores for placement in the stores -- those books on the table by the front of the store didn't get there by accident, or through some bookstore employee's happy thought. Same for the ones displayed at the ends of the bookshelf, on the endcaps. Why do you think that all the L. Ron Hubbard books have had prominent placement for years? Their publisher is paying the bookstores to keep them on the shelves.

Why do they do this? Because people buy what they see on the shelves. Just being displayed in a bookstore is a major part of getting readers.

[Yeshanu]

Thanks for the lowdown on the publishing industry, UJ. Very informative...

I just want to say I bought and devoured Murder by Magic last week (with my last 20 bucks and when I should have been doing homework... :grin ) Well worth it!

[aka eraser]

Thanks Jim. Great overview of a side of the business most of us don't know near-enough about.

[runic 7]

This looks like such a wonderful place to interact and learn :snoopy ! Especially since I've never asked this much of myself before.

I was wondering about two things -- :wha

1) When you use a quote from someone who is dead, do you still have to contact publishers or whomever for permission to use the quote if you go ahead and name the person prior to or after that quote?

2) When something is written based on a true story, no matter how fiction that true story may sound, and the names are all changed to protect those involved, does the author still have to get permission from the individuals?

runic7/Shan

[Jules Hall]

1) When you use a quote from someone who is dead, do you still have to contact publishers or whomever for permission to use the quote if you go ahead and name the person prior to or after that quote?

If the person died over 70 years ago, then the quote is out of copyright and you can use it however you like. If they didn't, you'll probably need to get permission.

[James D Macdonald]

1) When you use a quote from someone who is dead, do you still have to contact publishers or whomever for permission to use the quote if you go ahead and name the person prior to or after that quote?

How big a quote, for what purpose, and is it still under copyright?

2) When something is written based on a true story, no matter how fiction that true story may sound, and the names are all changed to protect those involved, does the author still have to get permission from the individuals?

Permission for what? To quote them? To use their story? Are you going to be looking at a libel suit somewhere along the line?

This is where I do my near-famous "I Am Not a Lawyer" dance.

Advice, though? I've got plenty. Tell the best story you can (I assume this is a novel, because I'm talking about novels here). After you've sold it, inform the editor that it's based on a true story. After the editor does the obligatory face palm, perhaps she'll say, "Great! We'll put 'based on a true story' on the cover!" Let the publisher's legal department help you out.

Remember: The words "But it really happened that way!" won't save a novel. Fiction has to be believable. Real life doesn't operate under any such constraints. Change stuff to make it work in terms of a novel.

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812519329/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Psycho</a>, <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312195265/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">The Silence of the Lambs</a>, and <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000C8ART/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">The Texas Chainsaw Massacre</a> were all based on the same real case.

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://www.bookslut.com/blog/" target="_new">Bookslut</a>

[runic 7]

Thank ya sir :D

We're talking about two novels, actually the second is probably more at a novella.

Regarding the quote in the first, it's Corrie Tenboom's "There is no pit that He is not deeper still." Within the story line she is acknowledged as the person who said it.

runic7

[James D Macdonald]

Corrie Tenboom's "There is no pit that He is not deeper still."

Corrie ten Boom. "There is no pit so deep that God’s love is not deeper still."

I don't see a problem with that quote, properly cited.

[Richard Ernest Rogers]

I'm struggling my way through more than a years worth of posting and thanking you for each and every every page. I just wanted to announce another lurker in the shadows. When I get caught up on trying out all of the good advice, about Christmas I reckon, I may even feel like stepping out of the shadows occasionally.

[paritoshuttam]

Hi,

In general, how many words would a conventional-length novel be? For a first-timer.

When I wrote my first draft, it was 100,000 words. Then I realised some (quite a few) shortcomings, and have done a lot of revision. This also involved some merciless hacking away many portions in my original version because I found they really weren't adding anything to the story.

Now I think I will end up in the 70,000-80,000 word range. Is that OK? How many pages would that translate to, in a published book? A rough estimate would do. I was aiming for the 225-250 page length novel.

thanks,
Paritosh.

[Jules Hall]

The range 70,000 to 100,000 is frequently quoted, although it does vary by genre. To be honest, you're in the right ballpark, so I wouldn't have thought it would matter much.

[HConn]

Paritosh, visit the websites of publishers who publish books similar to the one you're writing. If they have submission guidelines, check the length requirements.

[macalicious731]

Also, paritosh, there's a thread running (should still be on the first page) titled "Novel Length." It should be able to help you out.

Edit: Here's the link (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=791.topic).

[James D Macdonald]

Write the book that's the right length for your story. If every word serves its purpose, the right word in the right place, then your book will be its proper length.

Rather than writing to the market, write your book and find its market.

[James D Macdonald]

Today's Neat New Toy: <a href="http://desktop.google.com/" target="_new">Google Desktop</a>.

Indexing and search on your own personal hard drive, integrated into your Google results.

[Yeshanu]

Oooh! :jump Gotta try it!

[runic 7]

Thanks again.

Runic7

[HConn]

I need some help with research.

Two weeks ago my toddler said something that gave me a great idea for a story. The problem: It would need to be set in the past, in America, in a time period I don't know much about. Post-reconstruction to the turn of the century.

I don't know a lot about how people ate, what they wore, how they crapped, how they worked. And I don't want to spend hours researching a time period for a 4K word short story.

But this story wants to be written. How do I do reliable research quickly and cheaply?

[tjosban]

Writers Digest offers a line of "Everyday Life in the _____." There a few of them and they provide the kind of informatioin you are seeking, I think. :shrug

Go to the writersdigest.com (http://www.writersdigest.com) and click on the Writers Digest Bookstore. NOT the Bookclub. There are topics on the right side and click on Writer's Reference. Somewhere amid all the stuff are these books.

Hope that helps,
TJ

BTW: This thread is incredible. Thank you! Thank you! :hail (Still 78 pages of info to wade through until I am caught up!!)

[debraji]

Find a historic house from that period, one that gives tours. Take a tour when they're not busy--when you can pepper the guide with questions about the daily life of that period. They'll tell you stuff you won't find in the books. And you'll absorb the feel of the place, the look of the kitchen tools, the old boards and brick and horsehair-stuffed upholstery, the light coming in through old glass windows....

Your town might have a historical society that can help.

Another alternative--look at a Sears, Roebuck catalogue or an old newspaper, ads and all. They should be on microfiche in the library (although it's been a long time since I used microfiche--maybe you can find some materials on the internet).

I know you don't want to put hours of research into this. But it's been my experience that the research will yield up details that make the story less generic, more real for the reader.

[James D Macdonald]

I agree. Do the research. Your readers can tell if you skimped.

Let's see -- where do you live? My sister works as a reenactor at a living history museum focused around 1870. You'll find those sorts of places all over. The reenactors are very familiar with their periods, and know all kinds of things. They love getting questions on the obscure stuff -- it gives them a chance to show off -- and the authenticity it'll give your story, even if you don't use any specific detail, will pay dividends.

Or -- go to the library. Get a recent children's book on the subject. Read it, then head to the adult section to look up the areas you've identified as ones where you need specialized knowledge.

Let me recommend <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385073534/ref%3Dnosim/viablparadthewri" target="_new">The Foxfire Book</a> for old-time country life.

[reph]

I can tell you how some people crapped during the time you're asking about. My paternal grandparents had a farm in Iowa then. It had an outhouse, and they wiped with corncobs.

More info sources: old newspapers in library collections (look at the ads, especially, to find out how far a dollar went and what it went for); contemporary cookbooks and books on household management.

[Aramas]

Perhaps this thread should be entitled "Writing a novel with Uncle Jim". At a hundred and eighteen pages it's certainly getting there. I didn't read it all, but it seems to be about a bunch of aspiring writers sitting around talking about...um...'stuff'.

Throw in a serial killer and four hundred pages of padding and you'll have a thriller to rival Stephen King :)

[James D Macdonald]

Throw in a serial killer and four hundred pages of padding and you'll have a thriller to rival Stephen King

There's a bit more to it than that.

<hr>

On other notes -- while primary sources are great if you can't get the information any other way, as a writer I go to secondary sources for my initial research. I don't need to be an actual expert, I just have to look like one from out front.


Still, being a writer means you have homework every day for the rest of your life.

[ChunkyC]

The new Google Desktop mentioned above is a neat tool, but it is beta-software and there are some concerns:

New Google Search Tool Poses Security Risk (http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=50500707)

[sarah gaughan]

hey all, thanks for the information in this thread. took some time to get through, but completely worth it.

on the research question, I used to moan a bit about having to look up all kinds of things for short stories. However, it really does make the stories better and also, nothing I've learned in research has ever really been "wasted." You'd be surprised how often that odd bit of knowledge you never worked into one story comes in handy for something else, even if it's just winning at Trivial Pursuit ;-).

also, since this is my first post and I just noticed they have a Snoopy dance icon here, I have to use it: :snoopy

ok, done now.

[Jules Hall]

The problems with it aren't as serious as the press are trying to make them sound. Basically, they mean that anyone using your computer might be able to find out about stuff you have stored on it.

Essentially, you ought to assume this is the case anyway. Anyone who knew what they were doing and had unmonitored access to your computer could have achieved this anyway. All Google's tool does is make it easier.

[ChunkyC]

And folks should be aware of that, many aren't. Knowing just what a piece of software does lets us make an informed decision about what to put on our machines.

[James D Macdonald]

I am heartbroken to note that no one has yet reviewed Murder by Magic (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0446679623/madhousemanor) over at Amazon.

If you read it -- loved it, hated it, something in between -- please drop by and write a review. Honesty is always appreciated.

[Eowyn Eomer]

I think this thread may live as the longest thread in history. :eek It's a bit intimidating if you're looking for tips on how to write to see 119 pages of material to try and sift through. I was wondering if perhaps you had ever considered starting a new thread with just the rules, the closing that thread and sticking it at top so people wouldn't need to start new threads to ask simple questions that may have been answered already. There'd be a handy little guide right up top to look through that could be edited by the admin or moderator to add new rules as they're thought of. I have a feeling that most of my questions have been addressed somewhere here before, but 20 pages of long threads - I wish I had the time to search through them.

[SRHowen]

see the thread you started with your question---

Shawn

[James D Macdonald]

Speaking of research:

<a href="http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2004_10_24_digbysblog_archive.html#109864025365506 773" target="_new">Writers are terrorists</a>.

[Yeshanu]

I think this thread may live as the longest thread in history.

Eowyn, I don't think this is the longest thread in history. I think that on this board, one of the PA threads beats it. Over at TWC (haven't I seen you there? :grin ) I'm sure there are many longer ones... :ack

But this one may have the distinction of being most informative.

BTW, just to repeat: I've got the "meat" of the first seventy pages or so in a file on my computer. Email me at ruthcooke@hotmail.com, and I'll send it to you.

And Uncle Jim: Sorry. Went over to Amazon.com, intending to post a review, and found that I can't do so without either a) a credit card number (to verify my real name) or b) a purchase history with Amazon.com. So...

I'll plug it here. :grin

Great book, folks. Buy it. Read it. Review it.

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://www.middlebury.edu/academics/blwc/bakeless/" target="_new">Bread Loaf Bakeless Literary Prizes</a>.

Looking for: Book length fiction, non-fiction, and poetry.

Bad points: $10 entry fee.

Good points: Publication with Houghton Mifflin.

Deadline: 15 November 2004.

Full details at the link.

[dannyne330]

Hi All,

I just finished reading all 119 pages of this thread in three days. Yes, I have that kind of free time (there are 36 hours in a day here, that's how)

It's been a pleasure living through an entire year of your lives.
Uncle Jim, what you've done is admirable. A toast to you!

Some things that i think might be helpful/entertaining in regards to this thread:

First, a funny, SHORT read you may or may not have seen before:

<a href="http://www.snopes.com/college/homework/writing.asp" target="_new">http://www.snopes.com/college/homework/writing.asp</a>
Ah, good stuff there.

Second, Nick Sparks is a friend of mine, and although he'll be the first one to tell you that he is NOT a very good writer, he has accomplished what most people on this board are trying to do; namely, have a breakout novel. And by breakout, i mean HUGE. The advance for his first published novel was $1,000,000.

Anyway, on his Web site, here:
<a href="http://www.nicholassparks.com/WritersCorner/Index.html" target="_new">http://www.nicholassparks.com/WritersCorner/Index.html</a>

...he tells in great detail how he made that happen. He even has the actual query letter he submitted for The Notebook posted, as well lots of other useful information. You regulars have answered the same questions numerous times throughout some 2000-odd posts. This link might be a good place to direct newcomers to answer a lot of the basics about publishing, writing, etc. It could save you the time of rehashing old points.

Third, I'd like to recommend the movie Adaptation, if you haven't seen it. Love it or hate it, every writer can relate to at least some aspects of the film.

Fourth, Jim: Nobody Has to Know: classic, I loved it. Wonderful work.

Well I've said enough, so thank you for listening, cheers to you all!

Danny

PS- Jim, what's your chess rating? Or around where abouts would you say?

[Gala]

he'll be the first one to tell you that he is NOT a very good writer,

Really? I thought I was the one to mention that a few years ago. Never understood his success for the sake of writing ability.

His site reads like an infomercial. Now I'm really jealous, because I am so, so so the opposite. I don't like sales and all that stuff he goes on about.

Thanks for the info. I wish him, and you, well. His stories are okay, boring to me...but they've got people reading, buying books, and enjoying themselves. Good.

[maestrowork]

I don't mean to put down Sparks, but yeah, I didn't think he was that good a writer and I thought his stories was somewhat cliche and "been done before." I thought "The Notebook" was a decent read, but the movie -- oh, the sap! He had some really nice moments... so I was surprised that he hit so big. Something must be right with his target audience to set off that spark (puns intended).

According to him, he was really kind of lucky to get his agent (who was just starting out after being a laywer, without much publishing experience). Apparently her agent turned out to be VERY good!

I'd say success has much to do with luck, plus some talent, business sense, etc. But luck, definitely.

[James D Macdonald]

Sure, luck has something to do with it -- but you don't get lucky unless you have a manuscript in hand, and unless you're at a place where luck happens.

The rest is up to the readers, the darlings.

[runic 7]

H Conn,

I just had ta let ya know, I really like your quote. Work fascinates me that way at times too. :coffee

runic7

[maestrowork]

Well, I know that Oprah liked "The Notebook" and that was pretty much it. Oprah's words are gold.

[Fresie]

Hi, Uncle Jim and everyone,

Please please, I hope you have a word of advice for me!

I'm embarking on a new project at the moment (yes, I wanna try to do this NaNoWriMo thing which is absolutely against my writing principles, but everything around me just conspires to make me write this particular book, so I'll give it a try). Still, I have this particular opening problem all the time, anyway, not just with this project, so I really need to sort it out.

The question is: every piece of writing advice under the sun seems to suggest we start the novel straight off with the Character in Trouble. Still, every novel I've read seems to start with a nice, comfortable opening describing the pre-story status quo, and only then, sometimes not even in the first chapter, the troubles start. Yes, in the first paragraph there is always a hook, and somebody in some minor story-related trouble, but overall, the novels I've read, even action thrillers, seem to start quite comfortably. Then things get worse. But not on the first page and definitely not in the first paragraph!

I have my own opening dilemma: one of the two beginnings. Which one, do you think, would work best? The protagonist is a preteen boy in Stalinist Russia who witnesses his father being arrested and then released. I can start the story straight off with the arrest scene (which will have to be quite disturbing, especially considering it's a child's POV) and proceed with the story from there. That is, if I follow the writing advice. I do want, though, to start with the release scene: the book starts with the boy waking up to a beautiful Easter morning (there will be a hook and some minor story-related problems, of course), does all sorts of little boys' things that introduce the setting, characters and problems, and in the end of this eventful, but relatively comfortable chapter his father is back -- morally broken, scared, unrecognisable. This event (not the arrest!) changes the boy's life forever, the rest of the book is just consequences.

Which beginning, do you think, would work best? I really don't want to open the book with the arrest scene. But isn't it what we're supposed to do??? :huh

Sorry it's so long! Thank you very much!

Fresie

[pencilone]

Dannyne330,

Thanks for the comments and for the links and welcome to this forum.:coffee

With regard to bestsellers, I have found a good book recently, and I was thinking you guys might want to check it out too:

Seven Strategies in Every Best-Seller: A 186-Page Guide to Extraordinarily Successful Writing
by Tam Mossman (Editor) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0963294717/qid=1098867747/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-7257491-8114365?v=glance&s=books)

It's usually hard to find (but there is a cheap one now on Amazon - about $7).

I heartily recommend it.
;)

[macalicious731]

Fresie, to me the second scene you described sounds better than the first, especially since you want to write the first one.

Edit: Abysmal typing.

[aka eraser]

I'm with li'l mac on this one too. Go with your gut.

[maestrowork]

Fresie, if the boy's father's return begins the whole chain of events that changes the boy's life, I'd say that's your beginning. Remember Uncle Jim's "theater door" analogy? If you think that's when the boy can't turn back, it's your beginning.

Also, it seems like your story involves the boy's "hero's journey" of some sort. And usually (and I say "usually") a hero's journey starts with some type of "ordinary world." And it seems like the boy's peaceful life is his ordinary world, then his father's return changes everything.

A book doesn't have to start with a "wham bang!" conflict. However, IMHO (and I've learned that the hard way), you do need a hook up front. Something to hook the readers and they'd want to find out what will happen or how something happens...

If you start your book with the boy's happy, peaceful life, the readers might ask: hmmm, what is this about? Why do I care? It might not be a bad thing if you hint at something bad is going to happen, and then at the end of the chapter deliver that. Another way to do it might to be preface the chapter (not a prologue, but say, a first sentence/paragraph) to foreshadow the problem? Then go back to your boy's happy life -- leaving it suspenseful for the readers to want to read more.

In my first novel, I started with: "Betrayal makes us do strange things." Then I pull back into narrative. The readers won't get to know what betrayal I'm talking about until the end of the chapter. But that plants a seed in their head and hopefully they'd want to find out...

Hope this helps.

[Fresie]

Great stuff, guys! Thanks a lot! Your support and opinion mean really a lot to me.

Maestro -- yours is a fabulous opening. I will most definitely start the story off with a quality hook -- I'm not going to make it sugary, no. And yes, the boy will live to become a hero -- or rather, a successful secret agent (it's a fictionalised biography).

Thanks a lot!

Fresie

[Yeshanu]

Fresie,

I'm with the others on this. If the father's return is what changes the boy's life, then that's your entry point, not his arrest. And having it happen at the end of the first chapter is fine -- normal gives us a reference point to see how he's moved from the beginning of the story to the end.

there are 36 hours in a day here, that's how

Danny, where do you live? I wanna move there! :b

[WeightlessTiger]

I am still reading the thread and just got to page 67. I wanted to give Jim cu-dos for how he handles hecklers as he did in this response to some strange person on page 66:

Jim: "I'm not entirely sure you're interested in writing commercial fiction, Solitarely, so I'm not sure what help I can give you."

I think you can tell more about a person by how they treat an enemy then how they treat a friend.

[HConn]

Jim, how do you deal with things that distract and drain your energy?

As mentioned in another thread, the elections have been building a terrible stress in me. It's continuous and draining. I can't seem to focus on my work.

I've tried all my usual tricks to buckle down, but they aren't working. And there's no point in waiting for election day to come and go since the fight may continue well past the second.

What do I do?

:ack

-----------------------

edited to add:

And just as I post this, I get an email from my local NPR station telling me they're putting on a show (http://www.kuow.org/TheConversation.asp) dealing with pre-election stress anxiety.

[maestrowork]

Take a nap until November 3.

[James D Macdonald]

What do I do?

I'm going to the library, where there aren't any televisions and there's a line for the internet, to do some editing.

[Gala]

Deah HConn,
You didn't ask me, so I hope you don't mind if I contribute.

I work in a place where's there's no internet, no TV (I don't have one at home either). I take my laptop and work. The only radio I allow is the afternoon Mozart if the noise isn't distracting.

When I talk to others in the building, it's about art or how to turn up the heat. No real life stuff.

For me work, the writing work, is a vacation from all the stresses.

I've cut back on e-mail correspondence as well, though I do have friends on both sides of issues sending mail.

IOW--get somewhere the noise ain't.

[Prometheus76]

A bit off topic, but in the vein of the post by Uncle Jim about that author who was harassed for her research, I wrote about a recent experience I had in Atlanta, Georgia on my blog. Because my blog is new, I won't point anyone to it, I'll just copy and paste the entry here:

I was on a business trip in Atlanta last week and had a surreal experience that deserves sharing. While lost in downtown Atlanta (the lack of signs and abundance of one-way streets give Portland, Oregon a run for its money on claims to "Most Un-user-friendly Downtown"), I passed the corporate headquarters for Coca-Cola. Now I like Coke. A lot. So I thought, "Hey, I'll use my new Nikon 4100 digital camera to take some pics of the Coca-Cola building. Fun! Like Mecca for Coke addicts! So, I parked at the YMCA across the street, walked to a public park across the street from the front of the Coca-Cola building, and start snapping off some pics. Mind you, it's about 4 in the afternoon when I did this. I took about half a dozen shots and headed back for the car. As I was crossing the street, one of Atlanta's Finest pulled up next to me. "Excuse me, sir. Were you taking pictures of the Coca-Cola building?" "Yes. You don't want me to delete the pictures, do you?" "Well, I'm going to have to ask you to leave. With all the terrorism and everything, you're making the folks over at the Coke building nervous by taking pictures." "Well, I'm finished taking pictures anyway, so yeah, I'll go." "Thank you, sir."

I know taking pictures of buildings, especially while standing in a public park, is totally legal, so what's this cop doing bothering me about it? And let's say I was a terrorist. I think I'd be a little more sneaky about trying to get those photos. Like, maybe come at night, dressed in dark blue. Hide in a tree, maybe. I may even get my oil-baron backers to spring for a camera a little more powerful and effective than an auto-everything Nikon that I bought at Wal-Mart for $275! But these thoughts must not cross the minds of the security droids sitting at the desk of the Coca-Cola building. Nice public interface, Coke! Nice public relations! An obvious tourist from out of town snapping a few pics of the building, and all you can think is, "Get that terrorist out of here!" Let's hear it for paranoia!

[gp101]

I remember seeing a few posts here RE: synopses. Anyone remember which page(s)?

thx

[JuliePgh]

Discussion starts in the middle of P 78

[gp101]

Thank you, JP. That was quick!

What are the prevailing opinions on short synopses vs full length? Anyone ever receive feedback on either version?

[JimMorcombe]

I found myself writing a sentence similar to this the other day:

"Smith smashed the assasin's head against the bench. "He grabbed her by the hair and put his knife to her throat"

I then changed the assasin to a man and the sentence became: "He grabbed him by the hair and put his knife against his throat."

This second sentence incorrect because of the dual use of "his". Is it gramatically incorrect? If so, then how can my original sentence be gramatically correct.

Jim

[reph]

Jim, the sentence isn't grammatically incorrect. It's just unclear.

Speaking of correctness, the spelling should be "assassin."

[SRHowen]

What are the prevailing opinions on short synopses vs full length? Anyone ever receive feedback on either version?

Do this:

Write a one line synopsis. (useful for the back of biz cards at conventions etc.)

Write a two paragraph synopsis. (Useful for query letters)

Write a one to two page synopsis. (what most want when they ask for a synop)

Write a very detailed ten page synopsis. (If they ask for a detailed synop)

Write a chapter by chapter outline synopsis. (some want this)

Then check the guidelines of where you will be submitting and you should be covered for whatever they ask for.

[Flawed Creation]

Prometheus-

I would have to disagree with your comment about the likely behavior of terrorists. I would guess that a terrorist would do exactly what you did. why do anything suspicious and likely to get you introuble if caught, like sneaking around at night, when you can imitate a tourist in broad daylight?

that said, i agree with the substance of your post. it is odd for them to stop you since, it's legal and a given person is almost certainly a terrorist. furthermore there's no way they could possibly prevent someone from getting pictures of the building anyway. it's not something they can reasonsble hope to control, even if they decided it was necessary for security.

[James D Macdonald]

Another possible market (short story): <a href="http://www.allstarstories.com/epics-guidelines.html" target="_new">Guidelines Here</a>.

[Yeshanu]

I absolutely love the pay scale! :b

[James D Macdonald]

For the folks who haven't gone to the link, here's the pay on that last anthology:
<blockquote>
WHAT WE’RE PAYING

For First Print and Electronic World Anthology Rights:

* For pieces over ten thousand words: Twenty dollars.
* For pieces between five thousand and ten thousand words: Fifty dollars.
* For pieces five thousand words and under: One hundred dollars.

Authors will also receive two copies of the anthology on publication.</blockquote>

[James D Macdonald]

Meanwhile:

<BLOCKQUOTE>
Niven's Laws For Writers (http://www.larryniven.org/stories/nivens_laws.htm)

1) Writers who write for other writers should write letters.

2) Never be embarrased or ashamed about anything you choose to write. (Think of this before you send it to a market)

3) Stories to end all stories on a given topic, don't.

4) It is a sin to waste the reader's time.

5) If you've nothing to say, say it any way you like. Stylistic innovations, contorted story lines or none, exotic or genderless pronouns, internal inconsistencies, the recipe for preparing your lover as a cannibal banquet: feel free. If what you have to say is important and/or difficult to follow, use the simplest language possible. If the reader doesn't get it then, let it not be your fault.

6) Everybody talks first draft.
</BLOCKQUOTE>

[HollyB]

Did anyone notice in the guidelines that all the epics they like are novel length? Yet they want short story epics. Not an easy task... Right off the bat, the term "epic" makes me think "bloated." (Okay, just kidding, but at least "long and involved.")

[btinternet]

I sorta thought that was the point, or the challenge involved - to get the sensation of the epic scope and grandeur, without the extra verbiage....

BT

[Man with twohanded sword]

My biggest problem is depicting the POV character's emotional reactions to external events. I can only have him go dry mouthed, or feel like he's been punched in the stomach etc so many times before it begins to feel repititious and lame.

Any advice, oh great and wise Uncle Jim?

Cheers

Man with Two Handed Sword

[Risseybug]

Oh my gosh, there's so many things to do to react to the Bad Things.
He can:

Feel the blood drain from his face
Have hands that shake uncontrollably
Let his bladder go (this is actually one of the primary fight or flight responses of animals, humans included if the stimulus is severe enough)
Clench his hands until his knuckles turn white
Feel like he is going to pass out
Actually pass out
Heart race like it is going to jump out of his chest(and all that entails)

If you're talking about fear, you might google "Fear responses" or "responses of the sympathetic nervous system" or try "Fight or Flight". The symp. nerv. /fight or flight thing would probably help for alot of things, not just fear. Make yourself a good list.

See what good two semesters of Anatomy and Physiology can do for you?

Have fun :)

[Man with twohanded sword]

Thanks! That's more or less what I have at the moment. The snag is that the hero is in a scene where things get progressively worse. If I write...

A Bad Thing happened.
Peter felt the blood drain from his face. He tried X.
An Even Worse thing happened.
Peter's hands shook uncontrollably. He tried Y.
A Much Much Worse Thing happened.

...then Peter begins to look like a loony, even more so because he's supposed to be an indomitable swordsman.

My approach at the moment is to use structures like this:

Event.
Immediate response. Interpretion. Considered response.
Event...

E.g.

The ladder burst into flames.

Peter lept back and felt his mouth go dry. Now there was no escape, unless he risked using magic. Slowly, his fingers slid into his purse and sought the slither of chalk.

Tendrils of smoke rose from the planks under his feet...
..

I'm probably overthinking this, which is why I wondered what other people did.

Cheers

MWTHS

[James D Macdonald]

Don't fill in the guy's reactions to most stuff. Let the readers fill that in for you, from their own experiences. Show what happened, show what your guy does and what he says, move on.

[Man with twohanded sword]

Thanks! That was quick. (Now I feel obligated to buy one of your books.:thumbs )

So, my example should be something like this, then?

The ladder burst into flames.

Peter lept back. Slowly, his fingers slid into his purse and sought the slither of chalk.

Tendrils of smoke rose from the planks under his feet.

Firmly setting aside visions of Hell, Peter hunkered down and began to draw a rune.

I'm using this example because I'm trying to show a character do something he'd rather not, but without getting too histrionic!

[Risseybug]

See, now I totally agree with Jim (of course I do!) But if you find your character is doing the same stuff over and over, then the stuff I mentioned up a bit is good to know.

Personally, I think more heros should pee their pants - it shows they're human.

[ChunkyC]

I like this version better. This line:

Firmly setting aside visions of Hell

as well as being literal regarding the fire, is more than enough of a look into Peter's feelings to tell the reader he's not wholeheartedly embracing what he's going to do next.

[Man with twohanded sword]

I think your list is still useful: Uncle Jim said don't show reaction to most events, implying that the odd well placed dry mouth etc serves as emphasis.

As for heroes peeing their pants - that's a matter of taste. Agreed they should have vulnerabilities, but I'm not a fan of the "war is horrible"/"sufferring women"/"young boy with special powers" schools of fantasy.

Partly, having a character combat-ready clears the decks for more interesting character development.

However, I'll admit, there's also a measure of Mary Sue wish fulfillment. As both reader and writer, I want to get in there and ride the back of the POV character as he cuts down his enemies.

For me George RR Martin and Mary Gentle have it about right.

[James D Macdonald]

For me George RR Martin and Mary Gentle have it about right.

So ... read their books with your hi-lighter in hand, and mark the characters' reactions.

As an artist you're reading books differently than the regular readers. You're trying to see how the author created the effects, so you can do the same.

[Man with twohanded sword]

Wise you are, oh Socratic one.
Thanks for your time - I'm enjoying this thread.

[stormie267]

I find that if I'm having trouble showing emotions, I sometimes use this site:
members.aol.com/nonverbal2/entries.htm (http://members.aol.com/nonverbal2/entries.htm)

It's called the non-verbal dictionary. At least it makes for a good read!

[James D Macdonald]

From <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=209.t opic&start=3021&stop=3040" target="_new">More PA Woes</a>:

<hr>

I was wondering if you’d tell me how you received permission to write Star Wars novels?

Real briefly -- I'm not Ann (nor do I play her on TV), but I've done a bunch of licensed work under the name "Martin Delrio."

You don't contact them, they contact you. Nor do you write the book in advance, or send them a query. After your first book comes out from someone else (which proves you can write a publishable novel), you get a call one day from your agent, saying "NameOCompany needs someone to write a NameOShow novel. You interested?" You say, "Sure am!" You get the information from the rights holder. Depending on who you're dealing with, this can be very small or very large.

If they haven't given you an outline to start with, you write an outline and send it to them. If they don't like it, you write another outline. If they don't like that one, you write yet another....

You write the book. If they don't like it, either they make changes or you make changes until they do like it.

As far as protecting your original bits -- forget it. They have squads of lawyers, and the contract will spell out that the entire work is the property of the company that hired you.

My best advice to you would be to write your story as an original novel. If the only reason someone would read it is because it's Star Wars, it isn't much of a story. If the story is strong enough, you can use other names, other places, other characters, other events, have a chance of selling it on your own, and keeping all rights.

You probably won't sell in the numbers that having the words "Star Wars" on the cover would give you, but you'll have the start of your own career.

Short answer: the people who write the tie-ins are already established pros.

[HConn]

How did you choose the name Martin Delrio?

/idle curiousity

[James D Macdonald]

Martin Delrio: notice the initials, M & D.

(There was an historical Martin Delrio, a witch-hunter. The novelization of Mortal Kombat was his first book since the sixteenth century.)

[HConn]

I'm sure he'd be so pleased. :)

Thanks.

[gp101]

DESPERATELY seeking some reads for the chapter I posted in the SHARE YOUR WORK section of the boards. If interested, click the following link:

p197.ezboard.com/fabsolut...=517.topic (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=517.topic)

Would really like to hear what other writers (working or novice) have to say. If the link I gave doesn't work just look up my user name (gp101) in the right-hand side of the thread in SHARE YOUR WORK. Much thanks to anyone who has the time.

[gp101]

I've never had a problem reading longer-than-normal blocks of dialogue so long as they either advanced plot or revealed character (or hopefully both) without being too much of an info dump. But is that a bad way to start a novel? Can anyone think of examples of published novels that start off in this manner in chapter 1, page 1?

Thanks.

[Jules Hall]

The Business, by Iain Banks. Chapter 1 is almost pure dialogue, about 5 or 6 pages of it.

[Fresie]

The Philosopher's Pupil by Iris Murdoch opens with pages of dialogue, and virtually no dialogue tags at all! She's just incredible.

I think it's a great way to open a book.

[sc211]

About the writing Star Wars books question, it reminded me of this FAQ by Michael Stackpole. Good, informative reading.

www.stormwolf.com/data/masfaq.htm (http://www.stormwolf.com/data/masfaq.htm)

[raffaella]

Hi everyone,
I’ve managed to catch up with you only now due to a move across continents, an active toddler and a new baby (not to include the usual amount of sleep deprivation that goes with it).
I read somewhere along this thread that beginning a novel with a dream is not such a good idea. Is it because it lays false expectations?
I considered this option to introduce my main character: he’s a 12 year old boy with a very vivid imagination. Sometimes he has a hard time deciding whether things are really happening around him or just in his mind. Would an opening scene with him daydreaming about being a sort of Rambo and ending with him being called back to reality by his mom put off readers or is it acceptable as long as the trick is revealed?
I think it may fall into the “reveal character” category, but I’m curious to hear how more experienced writers feel about it.

Thanks in advance for your insight and for all the useful tips.:clap

Raffaella

[SFEley]

Raffaella wrote:
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I read somewhere along this thread that beginning a novel with a dream is not such a good idea. Is it because it lays false expectations?<hr></blockquote>
Pretty much. We start out thinking the book's about one thing, we get involved with the setting and characters as we understand them, and then it all turns out to be something else. The reader's initial belief in your story gets blown, and you have to build it all back up again.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Would an opening scene with him daydreaming about being a sort of Rambo and ending with him being called back to reality by his mom put off readers or is it acceptable as long as the trick is revealed?<hr></blockquote>
If you're good enough, you can make anything work. Some things are just harder than others.

[Risseybug]

That scenerio reminds me of an old cartoon.. anybody remember "Ralphie" and his daydreams??

I always loved the one where he was a fighter pilot.

[pianoman5]

I think most readers have a problem with dreams, because we all know that, fascinating as our own may be to ourselves and laden with symbolism as they can be, they're just garbled nonsense from an individual psyche that bear only scant relation to the truth.

That's why they're often frowned upon in fiction, and come with a 'use with care' label. While fiction is untrue, it should still be the truth, and a dream sequence breaks the fictive bargain between author and reader; it's a distraction that takes the reader out of the story.

But if this is what you're story is about - a boy who has difficulty separating fact from imaginings - I guess you're stuck with them. You'll obviously have to put quite a few dreamy episodes in your piece, some perhaps where you make it clear at the time that this is what is happening, and some where you play tricks as crucial plot elements.

But if you bear in mind that the opening of a story is crucial in hooking the reader, there's a good argument for not beginning with a dream, as you could p**s off your prospective buyers within the first few pages.

[debraji]

One of the most marvelous openings to a book that I've ever read was a dream sequence. It described the recurring dream of a grown man. In his dream, he was a boy, sledding down a long, snowy hill, almost flying, giddy with freedom, then dragging the sled back up the hill for another run. The man was Franklin Roosevelt.

The book was nonfiction: No Ordinary Time. Go read those first two pages.

What made the dream so telling was that the reader already knew that the dreamer had been crippled for years. The yearning and inner conflict reflected in the dream grabs the reader right away.

If you can somehow create that power in your scene, that deep emotional conflict between the dream and the dreamer, then I'd say you have something there.

[debraji]

Have you ever seen the movie, A Beautiful Mind, about the struggle of the mathematician with mental illness?

**SPOILERS AHEAD**

There's a point in the movie where the main character's fantasies (or psychoses, or whatever you call it) have taken over, and you don't realize it for some minutes. It seems plausible at first, but it gets more and more bizarre until you realize that you have left reality--until it comes crashing in.

It's beautifully done.

My point is, go ahead and try out your dream sequences. See if you can make them work. Play and experiment and don't be scared to make mistakes.

The only rule that matters is that, in the end, it works.

[JimMorcombe]

I think there is a big difference between starting straight in with "He looked the dragon in the eye..." and starting with an introduction such as "His threw off the bed clothes as he dreamt. He looked the dragon in the eye..."

However, Walter Mitty must be the best known of the tales where the protagonist confuses dreams with reality and from memory it starts straight in with a dream. (I haven't read it for years)

[sc211]

It could work well in contrasting the boy's wishes of who he'd like to be against the stark reality. But you can't have it go for more than a page (at most) if you don't clue us in it's a dream.

Look at "Risky Business." The opening lines are "The dream is always the same..." And then it shows his deepest desires and fears - sex vs. studies - which plays out in the rest of the film.

[pianoman5]

Good example, Jim, of a great way to do it. Walter Mitty's fantasies are daydreams actually, while he's out shopping with his wife, and are beautifully integrated into the narrative.

Incidentally, at just 2,084 words, for a long time that story held the record for the most money ever earned per word, although I'd imagine it's since been overtaken by King or Rowling.

Here's an online version of it: The Secret Life of Walter Mitty (http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/6821/thurber.html)

[James D Macdonald]

Ya know, if we can't add new messages, this thread will drift away off the front page. Maybe time for an index, and a Son of Uncle Jim?

[aka eraser]

Fiddling with my key ring here...hope this one works.

[aka eraser]

Now if the last person posting just leaves a shoe between the door and the sill, we might be OK for a while.

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://www.blackholly.com/writingresources.htm" target="_new">Holly Black's Writing Resources</a>

[HConn]

In her link to James Russel's 20 tips to getting published (http://invirtuo.cc/prededitors/pubop014.htm), the article states that:

It is near impossible to be published and expect your book to be a bestseller if you do not invest in professional services to bring your manuscript up to industry standards. To save money on editing services is a recipe for absolute failure.

I don't have a problem personally with paying an editor. I can't afford it myself, but good luck to those who can. But isn't that a canard?

[Fresie]

In her link to James Russel's 20 tips to getting published

This article gave me a very weird deja vu feeling... I've read quite a few submission advice articles in my lifetime, some of them written by well-known publishers, and I can swear that at least some of what he says I've seen in their articles first. It's not even about the advice as such, it's the wording, the air, the tiny quirky bits... can'T place it myself, really, but I know it. Of course you can't be very inventive about submission format, but I'm sure that this article doesn't really come from his professional experience, but is rather a compilation of other people's advice.

Out of curiosity, I visited his website (or so I think) and it left me pretty unimpressed. His publishing company seems to mostly sell how-to writing books and his own works (also available on eBay). There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, it's great he promotes his own work this way, but I'm not sure he's experienced enough (compared to other people in the industry) to give advice. <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/nerd.gif" />

[macalicious731]

James, thanks a lot for that link. It's the first place where I found information for writers under 21 specifically addressed.

[pianoman5]

I like Mr Russell's observation in point #18:

Good editors and ghostwriters know more than the technical side of writing; they know how to write a bestseller.

He clearly has some uniquely qualified people at his disposal.

Of course, having a generous and well-known boss must help. How many of us could claim in a 'personal testimony' that:

My employer is Jesus Christ and He pays the bills.

[Writing Again]

I have to say that between writing, working, living, posting, and various family disasters, it has taken me some time to read through this entire thread, but it is finally done.

It has been worth it.

The entire thread is now saved on a CD, and will be referred to often in the future.

It will be after the first of the year before any books are purchased (I have a budget specifically for books and it was long exceeded before the holidays arrived.) But the first book on my list will be Logical Chess.

Actually the mere mention of chess as an approach to writing helped me to solve a problem in my current fantasy novel. A kidnapped woman had to at a certain place at a certain time and I was chugging my brains trying to figure how to get her there when she needed to be there. Once I started thinking chess the answer was obvious: Find the reason the kidnappers needed to be in the vicinity allow her to escape while they were there. The rest took care of itself.

I wish to add my thank yous to those who have gone before. Even had I not personally gained from this thread I feel what you have done is a wonderful service to all writers who are willing to listen and think things through.

[Am Kenemet]

I, too, wanted to add mine to the list of thanks you emphatically deserve, Uncle Jim.

Being a night owl, I found myself a few weeks ago, in the wee hours of the morning, completely bored with all the things I typically amuse myself with and wishing for something new when a thought struck me. Why not something old?

I enjoyed writing very much when I was in the tail end of my high school years, but seemed to have given it up as a childhood dream in the intervening years. Now I am 33. I have pulled out some earlier works here and there, but they always departed back to their places of dark and forgotten storage with small wistful smiles of days gone by.

So here I was, dawn fast approaching, and I decided to just sit in front of the blank page of Microsoft Word until I put something down, or sleepiness finally sent me to bed. Writing won the day. The next day I went searching the net for resources and found this thread almost immediately. Seems I had just the night before discovered the BIC method of writing. :D

Thank you, Uncle Jim, for starting this wonderful thread and helping me to realize that this was a dream that is possible. I am greatly encouraged by what I have read here and through links. Thank you also, everyone else here, for turning this into one of the most amazing threads I have seen on any subject. I feel vastly honored to enter into the company of you all.

Hah, now that I have really laid it on thick (this community truly deserves it), I suppose it's time to be off to BIC. I look forward to joining in and becoming a part of this.

Jason

[James D Macdonald]

Hi, Jason -- I too stopped writing shortly after I left high school, and started again when I was 35.

Best of luck to you, and find joy in what you do.

[sc211]

Hey Uncle Jim,

On the last page you posted a reply about writing a Star Wars novel. The link didn't work, and I couldn't find it elsewhere on this site or on Google.

Where is that bit, and have you really been hired on to go to that galaxy far, far away...?

In a related bit, I got the DRIN newsletter today, which has a sidebar from the Star Wars editor. You can get this monthly newsletter here...

www.randomhouse.com/delrey/ (http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/)

[James D Macdonald]

No, I've never done a Star Wars novel.

(I have, however, fixed the link -- thanks for picking up on that!)

I've done Mortal Kombat, Prince Valiant, SpiderMan, and Tom Swift, though ...

[Adam Mac Brown]

Uncle Jim,

I'm delurking to thank you for this wonderful thread which I've just finished reading. I've posted a bit elsewhere on the cooler but this is my first time on this thread.

I have a question. Two or three times you mentioned that "bestseller" is a genre in itself. What do you mean by that? Thanks

[sc211]

Thanks, Uncle Jim. I see now that the question was written to AC Crispen. Too bad you can't do Star Wars - I'm sure you'd do it more justice than many (including Lucas of late).

By the way, very cool cover to Murder by Magic. And which Tom Swift did you write? I got a whole collection of the originals here, and saved an article from Smithsonian describing how they were banned from libraries for...

Well, I was going to copy it out, but the article's got so much good stuff on the techniques and business of writing that I think many here would enjoy checking it out. Tom Swift, The Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew... they all started from Stratemeyer.

seriesbookcentral.bobfinn...medad.html (http://seriesbookcentral.bobfinnan.com/samedad.html)

[sc211]

Actually, for the best part of the article, start halfway down at "Fiction full of slam-bang action." The first half is all setting up the times.

[Writing Again]

I enjoyed the entire article.

[Eowyn Eomer]

I have a quick question that I'm hoping I don't need to start a new thread for.

When saying the age of a character, which is better or correct?

. . . it was 10 year old Josh who. . .

. . . it was 10-year-old Josh who. . .

I assume that up to age 9, you spell the number out (one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine) but you write the actual number for 10 and above (10, 11, 12, 14, etc. . .). I'm making sure because I know some of the rules change from Journalism to English writing.

[aka eraser]

I'd write "it was 10 year-old Josh who..." and if I'm wrong reph will be along to set us both right.

[reph]

Eowyn, your two examples differed only in hyphenation, but the next paragraph talked about the choice between spelling out numbers and using numerals. Which question are you asking?

Two hyphens are necessary no matter which way you write the number. "X-year-old" is a compound modifier.

"It was 10-year-old Josh . . ."

"It was ten-year-old Josh . . ."

But "Josh was 10 years old that summer"

Whether to say 10 or ten depends on what style manual your publisher uses. If you don't know, going with words up through nine and numerals from 10 onward is safe.

[Pthom]

... numerals up through 9 and words from ten onward ...Isn't this backwards? I always thought the convention was just the opposite:
One, two, three ... nine, 10, 11, 12...99...674, etc.
Writing six hundred seventy-four is only necessary when beginning a sentence.

[evanaharris]

Isn't this backwards? I always thought the convention was just the opposite:
One, two, three ... nine, 10, 11, 12...99...674, etc.
Writing six hundred seventy-four is only necessary when beginning a sentence.


But what happens when you have to write out 4,075,862,321,598,340,654,123,456,789,012?

Or, worse yet, Pi? :|

[Pthom]

Evan:
Admittedly, I was tired when I posted isn't that what I said? The convention is to use Arabic numerals for numbers of two digits or more, not, as was presented, the other way 'round.

So you're lucky; you don't have to write out pi as "three point one four one five nine two six and so on," and probably shouldn't. Instead, you may write this: 3.1415926535897932384626433832795..., or this: 3.1416..., or when talking to scientists and mathematitions (or wannabes), just "pi."

The only caveat I know of to NOT write a number of more than two digits in Arabic numerals is when it occurs at the beginning of a sentence: 144 is a gross. Should be: One hundred forty-four is a gross.

Yah, yah, bad example. Better to write: A gross is 144 or a dozen dozen, then go make an omlette.

[reph]

You guys are right. I wrote it backward. I was thinking forward: "seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, . . . ," but that's not much help, is it? I've edited my post.

[James D Macdonald]

Me, I use words for numbers zero through ninety-nine, then numerals for 100 and higher.

Just be consistent, and be prepared for the house style to rule.

On other topics, my two Tom Swift novels were Monster Machines and Aquatech Warriors.

[tjosban]

I know this has been done before.

I would like to create a reference compilation for my own personal use.

Uncle Jim, do you mind if copy your posts for said use?

Does anyone else object to my copying their contributions where I feel the information is helpful to reference?

I know I have questions and topics I would like to discuss but some topics are a bit spread out and I have lost track of what has or has not been discussed. I would like to condense and categorize everything in a method that works for me.

There is a tremendous amount of information on this thread for people who are (re)discovering how much they love to write. I found this thread when it was 119 pages long and have read it all, loving every minute. Good job everyone for all of your work!

[James D Macdonald]

I don't mind your making a personal copy for your personal use, TJ.

[Yeshanu]

TJ, I've said this before, but it keeps getting buried so...

I've done just what you propose for the first seventy or so pages of this thread. If you or anyone else would like them, email me at ruthcooke@hotmail.com, and I'll send them out. (Uncle Jim hasn't objected to this activity so far... :p )

Anyhow, one day when I have way too much time on my hands, I'll try and get the rest of the thread done...

[gp101]

UC, Reph, or any other contemporary, internet-savvy, astute grammarian;

I get confused when writing the names of newspapers, magazines, books, and songs in my prose. One is underlined, another italicized, another in quotes (or is capitalized?). Which works for which? And is the same style for these titles used in both prose AND in non-fiction writing (say...your query letter)?

Part of my problem is that I see various methods for writing any of the aforementioned titles in different forums. I think this is a case of the internet allowing too much freedom--or is it anarchy? Seems even "legit" on-line sites allow articles with these titles framed any way they like. Have the style books been thrown out the window with this subject?

Thanks.

[stormie267]

Ah, gp, I asked that same question on another writing board and got so many different answers, each one siting a different book on grammar!

I do know this for certain: Titles of articles and short stories are put in quotes.

I do wish SOMEONE could give a definitive answer on underlining or italicizing titles of magazines or books, or maybe there isn't one correct answer?

[Writing Again]

The best advice for most of this, Stormie, is to first be consistent in your own writing. Do what you are comfortable with and do it the same way all the time.

Second is for submission. When submitting do it the way the editor, publishing house, etc. wants it done.

[Gala]

...

[sc211]

I often find myself putting a title in quotes myself, and yes, the internet's speed and lack of editing has really defunked a lot of good grammar.

This is from the Style Guide of Microsoft's "Bookshelf 2000," a good collection of reference stuff I found on sale for $5. It's not the highest source on the subject, but gives a good overall summary.

Titles of Works

In text the title of a creative work—such as a book, painting, or movie—is styled to distinguish it from the surrounding words. Most words in the title are capitalized, and the title as a whole is either set in italics or enclosed within quotation marks.

Capitalization of Titles

Always capitalize the first letter of the first and last word in a title. Articles, coordinating conjunctions, the to in infinitives, and prepositions of less than five letters are lowercase; all other words should be capitalized. A preposition should be capitalized if it functions as part of a verb.

Barefoot in the Park
How to Write Short Stories

In long titles that include punctuation, capitalize any word that follows a punctuation mark, such as a colon used to separate a title and subtitle.

Jackson Pollock: An American Saga

Italicized Titles

The titles of the following works are set in italic type:

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp books (including poetry collections and anthologies of short stories and essays)
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp magazines
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp newspapers
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp book-length poems
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp plays
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp movies (including made-for-TV movies and animated movies)
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp television series
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp radio shows
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp operas and other long musical compositions
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp record albums
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp ballets and modern dance pieces
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp paintings, sculptures, and other works of art


Titles in Quotation Marks

The titles of these works are set in roman type within quotation marks:

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp newspaper articles
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp magazine articles
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp essays
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp short stories
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp short poems
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp television episodes
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp songs
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp comic strips


Articles at the Beginning of Titles

If a title begins with a, an, or the and follows a possessive, omit the article to improve the flow of the sentence.

Incorrect: The professor assigned Thomas Paine’s The Age of Reason.
Correct: The professor assigned Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason.

[Writing Again]

One thing in Gala's favor. If you can point to the Chicago Manual of Style as your source you will never be called "wrong" even if the publishing house you are submitting to does it differently.

Come to think of it mine is sooo out of date...

[shaynexus]

Hi everyone, especially Jim Macdonald. I just discovered this website and this thread. So far I've only read up to page 50+ of the 124, but felt an urge to interject a comment, perhaps in the way of a bit of comic relief.
I am enjoying Jim's course and the many erudite commentaries regarding various rules of punctuation, paragraphing, POV, and story-telling in general. Granted, all are important especially when trying to interest a publisher.
But let me recommend BLINDNESS by Jose Saramago to any of you who haven't read it yet. Recall that he won the Nobel Prize for Literature in the last decade.
BLINDNESS is a fascinating work that also happens to flagrantly break every rule of manuscript form. Each chapter is essentially one long paragraph. Punctuation is scant at best and often seemingly inappropriate. Dialogue is seldom tagged and speakers are separated by only commas, so context lets you determine who's speaking. Yet, the story flows because it draws the reader in and along.
As Jim states, "Above all, tell a good story." If the reader is not drawn in, she tends to carp on the mechanics and form of the writing. If she is drawn in deeply, technical errors lose much of their importance.
Despite any fault-ridden technique, you may still win yourself a Nobel Prize for your effort.
(I jumped ahead to comment for fear you folks might end this thread before I caught up with you.)

[James D Macdonald]

As Jim states, "Above all, tell a good story."

And the master rule: If it works, it's right.

[paritoshuttam]

As the cliche goes, one should know the rules to break them successfully. Else one ends up looking foolish.

Also, once you are famous, you have more leeway in breaking rules.

- Paritosh

[maestrowork]

Literary fiction follows different rules too... they're more about the language and art and everything, and rules are known to be broken for fine arts -- which literary fiction is.

Commericial fiction, on the other hand, probably doesn't sway too far from the rules.

[detante]

This may have been discussed previously. If so, I apologize. Being a neophyte, I was wondering do novel publishers have seasons? And if so, is there anyway to use the seasons to your advantage? I know there is no magic trick, but does the time of year you submit your manuscript make any difference?

Jen

[maestrowork]

Do you mean publishing seasons (fall, Christmas, Valentines Day) or seasons for submissions?

I know there are certainly seasons as far as the actual publishing and marketing are concerned. For example, in February and March you'll probably see a big push of new romance novels, chick lit, or that sort of things. Fall is a big publishing season.

[detante]

Do you mean publishing seasons (fall, Christmas, Valentines Day) or seasons for submissions?

Seasons for submissions, I think. I know a slush pile is a slush pile no matter the month, but does the date a manuscript arrives make any difference?

[James D Macdonald]

does the date a manuscript arrives make any difference?

Not in book publishing, so far as I know.

[detante]

Thanks, UJ. I'm not sure why, but I find that reassuring. One less thing to screw up.

[maestrowork]

Although I probably wouldn't submit during the holidays... or a cold, depressing, icy February day...

[tjosban]

Uncle Jim,

I just want to say that your comments here and other places have helped me tremendously. I truly appreciate the effort you have made to the Cooler. Truly enlightening.

Thanks so much,

[James D Macdonald]

Found via the always-amusing <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/" target="_new">Making Light</a>, this <a href="http://www.saralaughs.com/blog/archives/000497.html" target="_new">discussion of writing sex scenes</a>. Find all ten parts by following various links. The writer here is Sara Donati (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=madhousemanor&keyword=sara+donati&mode=books), author of the Wilderness series.

[James D Macdonald]

We've said before that it's okay to break rules, as long as you do it for a purpose, you know what rule you're breaking, and above all, that it works.

Here, for your delight and edification, are two examples of Rule Breaking from the realm of visual arts.

First, <a href="http://www.gymsm.krefeld.schulen.net/tric/ecrivo/ville_manet.htm" target="_new"> Le Bar aux Folies Bergere</a> by Edouard Manet. Notice that the reflection in the mirror is impossible.

Second, observe <a href="http://www.essentialart.com/acatalog/Rene_Magritte_L_Empire_des_Lumieres_1954.html" target="_new">L'Empire des Lumieres</a> by Rene Magritte. A night scene with a daytime sky, both painted realistically.

Always ask, Does it Work? And notice that both of these artists are technically skilled. Other, lesser, painters wouldn't have carried it off.

[drgnlvrljh]

SR, you are the only other person I've ever found that does this. When I write, I invariably end up with a song--could be country, could be pop or classical--that I listen to incessantly while working on the piece. I just completed a quest/adventure novel, and its theme song was "Nirvana Road." Listening to the music was, perhaps, a crutch. But more often than not, it put me instantly back into the story and made it much easier to maintain the all-important discipline of writing each day and getting the thing done.

I'm only on page 58 here, but I had to respond. I do the same. I use music to assist in creating the mood of a scene all the time (I have an extensive collection of music). Sometimes, I will hunt down the lyrics to a particularly apt song, and stick it at the head of the chapter, because it helps with the mood and influence. Of course, it gets deleted before I decide to send it off for publishing ;) But it's just one thing that helps me "find the muse".

btw, Hello, Uncle Jim! I have to say, I greatly appreciate the instruction. It's done wonders! :D

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://www.authorsguild.org/miscfiles/midlist.pdf" target="_new">Report to the Authors Guild Midlist Books Study Committee</a>.

[James D Macdonald]

Long ago (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=1941&stop=1960) I posted the first couple of pages of a couple of Grisham novels, and promised to talk about 'em.

At long last, part of my life is cleared away enough for me to do it.

So... without further ado ...

<BLOCKQUOTE>The first two pages of The Summons, by John Grisham:

Chapter 1

It came by mail, regular postage, the old-fashioned way since the Judge was almost eighty and distrusted modern devices. Forget e-mail and even faxes. He didn't use an answering machine and had never been fond of the telephone. He pecked out his letters with both index fingers, one feeble key at a time, hunched over his old Underwood manual on a rolltop desk under the portrait of Nathan Bedford Forrest. The Judge's grandfather had fought with Forrest at Shiloh and throughout the Deep South, and to him no figure in history was more revered. For thirty-two years, the Judge had quietly refused to hold court on July 13, Forrest's birthday.

It came with another letter, a magazine, and two invoices, and was routinely placed in the law school mailbox of Professor Ray Atlee. He recognized it immediately since such envelopes had been a part of his life for as long as he could remember. It was from his father, a man he too called the Judge.

Professor Atlee studied the envelope, uncertain whether he should open it right there or wait a moment. Good news or bad, he never knew with the Judge, though the old man was dying and good news had been rare. It was thin and appeared to contain only one sheet of paper; nothing unusual about that. The Judge was frugal with the written word, though he'd once been known for his windy lectures from the bench.

It was a business letter, that much was certain. The Judge was not one for small talk, hated gossip and idle chitchat, whether written or spoken. Ice tea with him on the porch would be a refighting of the Civil War, probably at Shiloh, where he would once again lay all blame for the Confederate defeat at the shiny, untouched boots of General Pierre G. T. Beauregard, a man he would hate even in heaven, if by chance they met there.

He'd be dead soon. Seventy-nine years old with cancer in his stomach. He was overweight, a diabetic, a heavy pipe smoker, had a bad heart that had survived three attacks, and a host of lesser ailments that had tormented him for twenty years and were now finally closing in for the kill. The pain was constant. During their last phone call three weeks earlier, a call initiated by Ray because the Judge thought long distance was a rip-off, the old man sounded weak and strained. They had talked for less than two minutes.

The return address was gold-embossed: Chancellor Reuben V. Atlee, 25 Chancery District, Ford County Courthouse, Clanton, Mississippi. Ray slid the envelope into the magazine and began walking. Judge Atlee no longer held the office of chancellor. The voters had retired him nine years earlier; a bitter defeat from which he would never recover. Thirty-two years of diligent service to his people, and they tossed him out in favor of a younger man with ra-</BLOCKQUOTE>



<BLOCKQUOTE>Chapter 1</BLOCKQUOTE>

The book will be divided into chapters. No epigram, no chapter names.

<BLOCKQUOTE>It came by mail, regular postage, the old-fashioned way since the Judge was almost eighty and distrusted modern devices.</BLOCKQUOTE>

We start with pronoun without an antecedent. "It" here probably is "the summons" of the title. We've got a bit else going on here -- we're introduced to a character "the Judge" (with capital we can tell this is a name, or stands for a name), and a bit about him (age eighty, distrusts modern devices). That's characterization. An object, a person, and characterization. Not bad for sentence one.


<BLOCKQUOTE> Forget e-mail and even faxes.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Bolsters the old-fashioned impression, and bit of a change in rhythm. Sentence one was nineteen words; sentence two is five.

<BLOCKQUOTE> He didn't use an answering machine and had never been fond of the telephone. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Yet more on the Judge's old-fashioned, and even odd (not fond of the telephone?) ways. The lack of tech is mentioned three times in the first three sentences -- this will be important before the book is done.


<BLOCKQUOTE>He pecked out his letters with both index fingers, one feeble key at a time, hunched over his old Underwood manual on a rolltop desk under the portrait of Nathan Bedford Forrest.</BLOCKQUOTE>

More characterization, and some physical description. Action. The Judge is hunched (we already know he's old), he's feeble (since typewriter keys don't have feebleness as one of their attributes, it must be the Judge's typing style). The roll-top desk suggests age, as does the "old" typewriter. We're getting some physical scene-setting (notice that only important details are mentioned -- we don't know if he has carpets or a hardwood floor, we don't know what the lights look like -- but we the readers are already forming a picture. One important part of this scene -- it gets the position of power at the end of the sentence -- is the portrait. Nathan Beford Forrest places the Judge in the South (Forrest was a Confederate general), and reveals an unpleasant fact about the Judge's character -- Forrest founded the Ku Klux Klan. This sentence is much longer and more complex than the two that preceeded it. It's nearly the length of the first three sentences combined. The author wants us to slow down and pay attention.



<BLOCKQUOTE> The Judge's grandfather had fought with Forrest at Shiloh and throughout the Deep South, and to him no figure in history was more revered. For thirty-two years, the Judge had quietly refused to hold court on July 13, Forrest's birthday.</BLOCKQUOTE>

More about the Judge's age, his heritage, and his career. The title "Judge" is restated. This is also a small info dump for the readers who have no idea who Nathan Bedford Forrest was. By the end of the first paragraph we have a pretty good picture of a character, along with the unresolved question of what "it" is -- giving us a reason to read on to paragraph two.


<BLOCKQUOTE>It came with another letter, a magazine, and two invoices, and was routinely placed in the law school mailbox of Professor Ray Atlee. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite the busy little sentence. "It," still not identified (although we can puzzle out that it must be a letter since it comes with "another letter"), leads us to our second character. Professor Ray Atlee has a name as well as a title, we know that he's in a law school. The connection with the previous paragraph, aside from the letter itself, is that "Judge" is a legal title.



<BLOCKQUOTE>He recognized it immediately since such envelopes had been a part of his life for as long as he could remember.</BLOCKQUOTE>

"He" here is Ray Atlee, our second character. "It" is the letter, probably "The Summons." (Summons, too, is a legal term.) We learn now who it was who was seeing the Judge pecking away at that Underwood -- it was Ray, who got that flash when he saw the envelope.

<BLOCKQUOTE>It was from his father, a man he too called the Judge.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Relationship between the two characters, characterization, implication of a cold upbringing. We're filling in Ray, too.

<BLOCKQUOTE>Professor Atlee studied the envelope, uncertain whether he should open it right there or wait a moment. </BLOCKQUOTE>

We're a bit formal with Ray, for now. We don't know him as well as we know the Judge. We're also reinforcing that he's got some social standing, as a professor. And we're getting a feeling of doubt. Should he open the envelope? Why wouldn't he? Why the hesitation? Suspense. While Ray is being introduced here, he's still sharing the stage with that envelope.


<BLOCKQUOTE>Good news or bad, he never knew with the Judge, though the old man was dying and good news had been rare. </BLOCKQUOTE>

An important fact. We knew the Judge was feeble and hunched. and old. Now he's dying. We still don't know what's in that envelope.

<BLOCKQUOTE>It was thin and appeared to contain only one sheet of paper; nothing unusual about that. </BLOCKQUOTE>

We're back to calling the envelope "it," just as in the first word of the novel. We're beginning to put a lot of weight on that envelope. We're also seeing more of the envelope; thin, but not unusual. An object of significance, particularly if we consider that it's probably the title object.

<BLOCKQUOTE>The Judge was frugal with the written word, though he'd once been known for his windy lectures from the bench.</BLOCKQUOTE>

More characterization of the Judge, pulling us away from Ray. And so we end paragraph two, a second character introduced but the focus firmly on the Judge (and his envelope). So ends paragraph four.

<BLOCKQUOTE>It was a business letter, that much was certain. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Focus back on the letter, once again "It."

<BLOCKQUOTE>The Judge was not one for small talk, hated gossip and idle chitchat, whether written or spoken. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Characterization. The sentence, by itself, is clumsy, and will slow a reader down. The pacing here is important. The author wants this information to be absorbed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>Ice tea with him on the porch would be a refighting of the Civil War, probably at Shiloh, where he would once again lay all blame for the Confederate defeat at the shiny, untouched boots of General Pierre G. T. Beauregard, a man he would hate even in heaven, if by chance they met there.</BLOCKQUOTE>

The paragraph ends with a long, complex sentence, characterization of a man living in the past, with a hint of a question of whether the Judge would go to heaven when he died.


<BLOCKQUOTE>He'd be dead soon.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Very short, very punchy, particularly when contrasted with the last sentence of the previous paragraph. We already had this information, now the author restates it, far more vividly than "the old man was dying." We're all dying ... but for most of us it's not going to be "soon." This is a great paragraph lead-off sentence. The impact is greater here, after we'd already been introduced, than it would have been had this sentence been used as the first sentence of the first paragraph.

<BLOCKQUOTE>Seventy-nine years old with cancer in his stomach.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Short, punchy, purely factual. Giving hard data to the impressions the readers already had.

<BLOCKQUOTE> He was overweight, a diabetic, a heavy pipe smoker, had a bad heart that had survived three attacks, and a host of lesser ailments that had tormented him for twenty years and were now finally closing in for the kill. </BLOCKQUOTE>

"Tormented him for twenty years." We're feeling sympathetic for the Judge now, after an unsympathetic portrayal up to this point. This is also a long, rambling sentence after the previous two body-blows, giving the reader time to catch his breath.

<BLOCKQUOTE>The pain was constant.</BLOCKQUOTE>

After that breather, a quick jab. Reinforces the pain motif.

<BLOCKQUOTE> During their last phone call three weeks earlier, a call initiated by Ray because the Judge thought long distance was a rip-off, the old man sounded weak and strained.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Reinforcing the old-fashioned anti-tech ways of the Judge, putting in some characterization on Ray and the Judge's relationship. Spreads the story out to more than just this moment ... whatever's been going on we have a human time scale. Twenty years, seventy-nine years, since the Civil War -- those are too long for a reader's mind to wrap around. Three weeks -- that's doable.

<BLOCKQUOTE>They had talked for less than two minutes.
</BLOCKQUOTE>

Characterization, reveals their relationship.

<BLOCKQUOTE>The return address was gold-embossed: Chancellor Reuben V. Atlee, 25 Chancery District, Ford County Courthouse, Clanton, Mississippi. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Finally, the Judge has a name, and we're given a very specific location, rather than the vague South. Once again, we're focused on the envelope, as we have been at the beginning of four of the five previous paragraphs. Gold-embossed tells us about the character, and his social station.

<BLOCKQUOTE>Ray slid the envelope into the magazine and began walking. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Aren't we going to open that envelope? The suspense! Plus a bit of characterization -- he doesn't want to touch or look at the envelope.

<BLOCKQUOTE>Judge Atlee no longer held the office of chancellor.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah -- but he's still using the old stationery. Frugal (we already have been told he is), or is it vanity, or pride? Those are deadly sins.

<BLOCKQUOTE>The voters had retired him nine years earlier; a bitter defeat from which he would never recover.
</BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah. It's pride. A bit more history, too. It isn't the stomach cancer that's killing him -- it's his electoral defeat. The source of his pain?

<BLOCKQUOTE>Thirty-two years of diligent service to his people, and they tossed him out in favor of a younger man with ra-</BLOCKQUOTE>

Thirty-two years of honoring Nathan Bedford Forrest.

More on the source of the Judge's discontent. And here we are, at the bottom of page two of the printed book, and that darned envelope still hasn't been opened.

Okay, show of hands -- how many of you want to turn the page and find out what happens next?

We have two characters -- the Judge and Ray -- and one object, the envelope (The Summons). We have a pretty good idea of one location -- and it isn't the location where the envelope and Ray are standing, even though it looks like Ray will be the viewpoint character. All of the information we've gotten about the Judge could well have come from his head, summoned up by the view of the Summons in his academic mailbox.

That's a rockin' opening, guys. Nothing wasted.

Go you and do likewise.

[drgnlvrljh]

I'm just on page 75 and I have a question on the subject of names (sorry, guys.)

An important character arrives in the story, who is a mystery to everyone else, and I want him to be a mystery to the readers as well. For example:

He waited in the dark, across the street from the coffeehouse. It had been closed for over an hour, now, but the person he was watching for hadn't left yet. He was cold, and tired, but he was also patient. He'd been searching for her for nearly twenty years, another hour or so would not matter, now.

Then, in the next chapter, I actually give his name:

He squeezed the rest of the way into the office, and closed the door. As soon as his shirt was off, Andrea began to apply the salve on his blistering abdomen and chest.

“Do you have a name?” she asked.

He stared at the ceiling, and said in that soft, subtly accented voice, “Gideon.”

What I'm wanting to do, is make his seem foreboding, or even dangerous, at first, then show that maybe he's not such a bad guy after all, but leave that nagging little question in the back of the readers mind until deeper into the story, when it becomes clearer that he really is a good guy, but might not necessarily be a "hero".

Am I cheating my readers? Or is there perhaps a better way to do this?

[James D Macdonald]

Question for you, drgnlvrljh:


In the first quote: <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>He waited in the dark, across the street from the coffeehouse. It had been closed for over an hour, now, but the person he was watching for hadn't left yet. He was cold, and tired, but he was also patient. He'd been searching for her for nearly twenty years, another hour or so would not matter, now.<hr></blockquote>

Who's the viewpoint character? Is it the mysterious stranger himself?

It's not outrageous for him not to mention his own name.

I don't see a problem with what you've presented here. Of course, to make any kind of detailed suggestions I'd have to read the whole thing, and even then I'd have to lead off with "In my opinion...."

Have you finished your first draft yet?

[drgnlvrljh]

Who's the viewpoint character? Is it the mysterious stranger himself?

At that particular moment, his is the viewpoint. The POV will change though (and I've seen that subject covered extensively in this thread). It's not more than a paragraph or two, because I want to get him in there right now, at the begining of the story. He just doesn't have alot to do until Chapter 2.


Have you finished your first draft yet?

Um...Not completely? :o

I'm doing BIC! I swear I am! ;)

[HConn]

Is writing a craft that anyone can learn?

Does talent matter?

Does everyone have creativity?

Is it an art form that many will try but few will master?

Can anyone produce publishable work? Of the ones who can't/don't, is it because they aren't learning or because they don't have the spark?

-----------------------

I'm just trying to move the discussion from to PA thread to here.

[Risseybug]

I stand by my reply on the PA thread.
Writing is like math. Everyone can learn basic math, but it takes a certain type of person, with a certain INNATE skill, to to say, trigonometry, and do it well. I can't comprehend it.

Anyone can learn to write something, to use the basics, but not as many can weave together a story, create a novel or a series. Imagination and creativity are part of who some are, and not part of others. I'll amend this to say that the amount of creativity and imagination varies from person to person. Everyone has some, but some have more than others.

We wouldn't be having this discussion if we were talking about visual artists. If everyone could do it well, then why would we have galleries, art museums, and art exhibits? I think everyone knows that not everyone can learn to draw or paint or dance or sing, to a level that is called "artistic", to be called professional. Why is it that some think anyone can learn to write publishable fiction???
Sorry, bit of a rant, but it's annoying.

[aka eraser]

Is writing a craft that anyone can learn?

Yes, anyone of near-average to above-average intelligence without a significant learning disability.

Does talent matter?

Yes, it makes it easier, and when combined with hard work improves the odds of producing publishable work.

Does everyone have creativity?

I believe so, in varying degrees/amounts.

Is it an art form that many will try but few will master?

Probably. But then you get into the question of what's the definition of "master?" I consider myself to be a very good writer. I'll never consider myself to have mastered the craft though. I suspect few writers, who still possess an ounce of humility, would consider themselves masters of the art/craft, though their fans may beg to differ.

Can anyone produce publishable work? Of the ones who can't/don't, is it because they aren't learning or because they don't have the spark?

I believe most can, if they work, learn from their mistakes, recognize and bolster their strengths, minimize their weaknesses, become inured to rejection, and take the time to learn how the business side of writing works. All the talent in the world won't get you published if you consistently screw up the end game of the process.

Most writers who don't succeed, do so, I believe, because they've failed at one or more of the above.

I like the painting analogy. Those who liken all writers to Da Vinci, Picasso et al have an elitist view of writing. There are painters who make a decent living painting houses, airbrushing vans and doing caricatures at fairs.

Likewise, there are writers who do just fine writing manuals, ads, newsletters and jingles.

[maestrowork]

Writing requires both skill and talent. And different people have different levels. Skills can be learned and mastered through hard work. Talent is born with -- some people have more than others. Anyone can succeed if they put their mind to it -- it's just that some people can do it faster, better, and more naturally than others.

[James D Macdonald]

"Genius is one per cent inspiration, ninety-nine per cent perspiration."
<BLOCKQUOTE>
Thomas A. Edison, Harper's Monthly, 1932
</BLOCKQUOTE>

[detante]

Is writing a craft that anyone can learn?

No. Some suffer from mental or physical ailments that prevent them from ever learning to write.

Does talent matter?

Yes. But talent is a subjective quality defined by the audience. So the real trick is not only discovering and honing your talent, but finding the audience that appreciates it. One audience's trash is another's treasure.

Does everyone have creativity?

No. Asperger syndrome is a sub-group of autism. One of the characteristics is an impaired imagination. Sufferers can learn facts and figures but have a difficult time grasping abstract concepts. They also have trouble communicating. They are not able to 'read between the lines' and tend to take comments literally.

Is it an art form that many will try but few will master?

Relatively speaking, yes.

Can anyone produce publishable work? Of the ones who can't/don't, is it because they aren't learning or because they don't have the spark?

Ruling out those that are incapable of learning the craft, yes. But only if they are willing to put forth the effort to complete a polished work, the intestinal fortitude to accept criticism, and the tenacity to find a willing and able publisher. That's a lot of if's.

Jen

[JimMorcombe]

U.J.

We start with pronoun without an antecedent. "It" here probably is "the summons" of the title.

You are obviously correct, but I never would have picked this up in a hundred years. I am too subconsciously attuned to te title not being relevant. As you say, usually the title is picked by the publisher for marketing reasons.

This is more evidence that Grisham always picks his own titles and no-one mucks around with them. I first noticed this in "The thirteenth Juror" but is is beginning to stand out in other books too.

Even if an author knows what the title of his book will be, this doesn't mean he is free to assume that the reader knows that he knows. Obviously Grisham lost me on that one.

[JimMorcombe]

U.J.
Nathan Beford Forrest places the Judge in the South (Forrest was a Confederate general), and reveals an unpleasant fact about the Judge's character -- Forrest founded the Ku Klux Klan.

Again, I find out that Grisham's words have gone over my head. To me, Nathan Bedford Forrest meant no more to me than Lord John Forrest means to you.

I am beginning to understand why I found these first few pages so boring while others, such as yourself, sing their praises.

[JimMorcombe]

U.J.

I am a Grisham fan and I found this opening boring. By the bottom of page two I just didn't care enough about the letter to read any further. I felt as if Grisham was artificially injecting suspense into a mundane matter. Opening the mail is a boring process. Why would I want to read about it?

My idea of a hook is something that gets my attention. It immediately hints at the murder and mayhem that will appear in the following pages - or hints at a heavy emotional rollercoster ride - or anything that will make me believe it will be worth my while to read the book. "A letter has arrived" simply hints at a boring book.

Admittedly I missed the obvious connection between "it" and the title of the book. Also I didn't get any resonance from the name "Forrest" since he was a complete unknown to me. But I don't think these two facts explain my lack of interest. I actually put this book back on the bookshelf and read no further. It actually took three or four attempts before I got engrossed in the story. The same thing happenned with "Painted House".

Perhaps I expect too much from Grisham and when he doesn't live up to expectations I am too harsh on him.

[gp101]

I couldn't finish PAINTED HOUSE--tried three times to read it. But I like the first two pages of this Grishom tale. Uncle Jim does a nice job of breaking down the why's and how's of the two pages. I'd add that Grishom used adjectives sparingly, and only two adverbs. Description was kept bare bones. Stingy word economy really helps a read, for me anyway.

[Diviner]

Just another fan of this thread delurking....
I have been hooked on it since I found it at the end of Nano. Thanks to all of you, especially to James MacDonald for an interesting and informative thread. I have told friends and family about BIC and received much support (from family) and enthusiasm (from fellow writers).

I have a question about my almost finished WIP. My POV is a strong limited third from a single viewpoint most of the time, but in three places I have varied it, because there is no way my MC could know important stuff about two of her adversaries. In those cases --very short scenes-- I slip into omniscient.

I have the feeling that a knowledgeable beta reader would notice this but that a regular reader wouldn't care. Is it too intrusive to have tiny bits of omniscient POV? Would a reader expect even more to clear up tangled motivation?

Thanks for your insights.

[sc211]

DRGN:

You asked about giving away a character's name at the start. You're right in that using the mystery of it can help. There's any number of scenes in novels and movies in which this is used.

The trouble is that when you get more than a couple of characters in one place, it's harder to keep "he" separate from the other "he"s. But there are ways to get around it.

The "old man" is referred to as such for four full pages in Ender's Game (p 260) before you're told his name in the last line of the scene.

Another "old man" is referred to for three pages in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (ch. 22) until he tells you his name. This time it's used for humor instead of surprise. "I told you it wasn't important."

In your own example, the only change I'd make is when he finally does tell his name:

“Do you have a name?” she asked.

He stared at the ceiling, and said in that soft, subtly accented voice, “Gideon.”

It'd be better to underplay it. To tell of the accent earlier and then simply have him say it. For example, from page 5 of a classic:

The stranger nodded again. "Call me Shane," he said.

[drgnlvrljh]

It'd be better to underplay it. To tell of the accent earlier and then simply have him say it.

Good point. And I must apologize for the bad grammar of the line: "and said in that soft, subtly accented voice,"

This is actually the first time he talks in the story. But I agree "show, don't tell" would work better (which is something I can do in revision, since I just want to get the story out, at first).

Question is, in a case like this, how should I go about showing it? Yes, the accent will be a minor issue, as the people he meets are going to wonder where he's from (ie; "You ain't from around here, are ya boy?"), and I'd rather not try to show it in his speech. Especially since the accent is not from -anywhere- on Earth ;)

“Do you have a name?” she asked.

He stared at the ceiling, and said, “Gideon.”

Andrea caught a hint of accent, but couldn't place it.

Perhaps?

[drgnlvrljh]

I think you could 'push the envelope' of pathetic fallacy if you have set your reader up properly with a character who would be believable projecting onto inanimate objects in that way. It would be a tricky business, but worth it if you do it just right.

On the subject of pathetic fallacy, you say it's possible, but tricky, if done just right. Could I bother you for a possible example? (I admit to guilt in at least one instance :o )

[James D Macdonald]

Could I bother you for a possible example?

She hung cheerful curtains in the bedroom.

He made the notes with his angry pen.

The playful wind made the childrens' kites soar.

--------------

Like any spice, a little enhances, too much makes the meal inedible.

[James D Macdonald]

Can anyone produce publishable work? Of the ones who can't/don't, is it because they aren't learning or because they don't have the spark

Can anyone become a marathon runner?

Well -- given a certain baseline level of good health, perhaps. No guarantee that they'll come in first, but they'll probably cross the finish line.

What's more certain is that, no matter ones' innate running ability, those who don't log the road miles training, and those who don't enter the race, won't cross the finish line.

Most people aren't naturals, or geniuses. Many can plug along, get better, and reach a minimum level of competence.

Remember: If the minimum wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum.

<HR>

As I said elsewhere: Someone with one drop of creativity who works hard will get farther than someone with an ocean of creativity who doesn't do the work.

<HR>

Repeating the same mistakes over and over isn't practicing correctly, and won't get you anywhere.

<HR>

[James D Macdonald]

Let's try a different analysis. This will be words per sentence, number of commas, and number of sentences per paragraph, for the full paragraphs. I'm looking for varying rhythms.

Paragraph 1:

19 (2)
5 (0)
14 (0)
32 (2)
24 (1)
16 (2)

Paragraph 2:

23 (2)
21 (0)
12 (1)

Paragraph 3:

17 (1)
22 (2)
16 (1 semicolon)
20 (1)

Paragraph 4:

9 (1)
17 (2)
55 (5)

Paragraph 5:

4 (0)
8 (0)
40 (4)
4 (0)
29 (2)
8 (0)

[sc211]

drgn:

I think you got it. If you start the scene from the woman's point of view (let's say from when they enter her room), you could even give her some interior monologue.

“Do you have a name?” she asked.

He glanced at the ceiling and paused, as if wondering if he could trust her. Or was he just thinking up some bogus name?

“Gideon," he said.

As she got the salve, she shook her head. After all this time I should be able to read men better. But here I can't even place that accent.

That's actually kind of awkward. I had a better way this morning, but ezboard dropped the ball and you can't press Back to retrieve your message (which is why I'm copying each one from now on before hitting Reply). By the way, I like the idea of the accent being not from Earth.

[sc211]

About the talent to write question...

I am not a man of any unusual talent; I started out with very moderate abilities. My success has been due to my really remarkable industry – to developing what I had in me to the extreme limit. When a man begins to sharpen one faculty, and keeps on sharpening it with tireless perseverance, he can achieve wonders. Everybody knows it, it’s a commonplace, and yet how rare it is to find anybody doing it – I mean to the uttermost as I did. What genius I had was for work!
- Robert Louis Stevenson

I remember a guy telling me years ago, “It doesn’t matter what kind of studio you have if you’re in there working.”
- Gary Baker

[drgnlvrljh]

Thank you, kind Sir! I guess then, that I might be somewhat guilty. The MC is in a situation where she's holding a broken door shut, while some-thing- on the other side is trying to get through, and the only thing she has that might be heavy enough to keep the door shut is a trunk full of books...currently on the other side of the room. And so it sits there, "mocking" her. :o

*Makes a note to find something better to replace that with when she gets home from work* :lol