Outlines or free wwrite?

[Coco82]

Which do you use/prefer, using strict outlines or letting tihngs come to you as you write?

[maestrowork]

I prefer the organic approach with a general (very general) outline to set my direction, which can change, of course.

[Azura Skye]

I usually have an idea of where I want to go in my head before and during writing.

[SRHowen]

No idea at all when I start--I simply BIC and the first scene is there, once I have that scene set, off the story goes on its own.

Shawn

[Azura Skye]

:o

Sorry, but what does BIC mean?

[ElizabethJames]

We usually have the delusion of an outline, but quickly surrender to our characters taking charge. The children tend to be most pushy.

[sc211]

Well said. My favorite quote on it is from Tom Waits...

You have to be careful about control. It’s like when you take a bunch of chickens to the park and you try to keep them all together and you’re yelling, “Hey! Chicken! Come back here!” So that when you finally get the chickens corralled, they all die of heat exhaustion.

And BIC means Butt In Chair. And stay there till you've written your daily quota.

[ElizabethJames]

Help! We're stuck with our Butt In Chair and have no possibility of getting our daily quota done. Which is why we're here looking for someone to procrastinate with!

[Azura Skye]

Butt in chair...LOL:rollin :rollin

[HConn]

Which do you use/prefer, using strict outlines or letting tihngs come to you as you write?

Yes.

[vstrauss]

Oh god, this discussion again.

It doesn't make any difference which you use, as long as it works for you.

- Victoria

[Gala]

vstrauss--the question may bore you but consider
1. There are new people on AW who haven't seen or answered it before, so the data pool and insight is current.
2. The question didn't ask advice re what "should be done," as I understood it.

Coco,
I use either method in the beginning, depending on the project. I need outlines more when extensive research is involved.

I always create a detailed outline as I write, using Word's outline and headings features to format scene, section, and/or chapter titles. When I'm done I can use those Word features to easily move sections around in the book.

I also need the outline to generate a table of contents and write a synopsis.

In the earliest stage of a new project, I'm likely simply start writing. I enjoy brainstorming on paper. Usually it's straight, intense writing, but I'll list action items as I go in the margins so as not to loose concentration stopping to look something up. If I'm stuck I'll mind map, which is a sort of outline.

[Coco82]

Thaks Gala. I use the free write method myself. I used an outline before on one of my earlier projects and I felt it to be constricting, but that's just my opinion.

[ElizabethJames]

Have you heard the time-management advice . . . 'never touch a piece of paper twice?'

Well, in all our oh-see-dee-ishness, we actually never touch a piece of paper once. Happened three or four years ago when our brain clicked onto a different track.

Still don't much like to read on a computer screen, but it has surely become the conduit for our voice. Can't even read our own handwriting any longer.

[Euan Harvey]

I do both. For the novels I've finished (neither of which has been published, or even submitted for that matter), I had a rough outline (a few sentences for each scene), but the final product had some major differences to the outline. If I found a scene was going in a different direction, I let it run, and then went back and changed to my outline to try and make it fit in. Usually, it's no problem. When it came to revision, sometime the free-flow stuff was better, and sometimes I realized that I didn't like the tangent it had gone on, so I reverted back to what was on the outline, and wrote the scene again.

For short stories, I usually have an idea of what's going to happen, but the ins and outs appear while I'm drafting.

Really, I don't think it matters at all. The final product is what's important; how you get there doesn't matter in the least.

[Writing Again]

I'm addicted to 3X5 index cards. I use them for everything. I have one wall that is a cork board -- It is covered with them.

When I first start a story I look for a beginning; then an ending; then I work on the middle.

I never hesitate at any point to let the story and characters write themselves.

[triceretops]

For non-fiction an outline is absolute must. For novels, it goes free flowing all over the place. Opposite extremes.

Tri

[Jamesaritchie]

I never outline fiction or nonfiction. I hate, detest, and abhor outlines. But I don't like the phrase "free writing," either. This seems to suggest some sort of stream of consciousness approach. My writing is never that. I'm a situational writer, meaning the few few pages, the opening situation, asks a question and/or poses a problem that the rest of the novel answers/resolves.

One sentence leads to the next for the purpose of answering and solving, and there's no stream of consciousness or guessing about it.

Generally speaking, I don't like novels that have been heavily outlined and plotted, but you have to do what works for you, and the only way to know which is which is to try both and see what happens.

[Gala]

James--you never outline, right? There's more than one type of outline, and I'm sure you know that well, being a journalist (If memory serves.)

So you write your 50k or 100k novel and never have a TOC, title chapters, headings? It is one long lorem ipsum.

That's amazing to me. Makes me think you have a photographic memory and can keep your place in a long doc. I'm jealous!

Yeah "stream of conscious" can irritate me, but I do it sometimes as a warmup, similar to warming up for a jog by stretching.

For you outliners: for me an outline can serve as a sketch, like a painter or wood carver does before painting or cutting.

Now if you want serious info on outlining novels, take a look at Ken Follett's way in the bookWriting the Blockbuster Novel. His later books especially read like an outline, imho. His Pillars of the Earth is one of my favorite reads of all time, and as complex as it is, it would require an outline (unless you're JamesRitchie, of course.)

Now I've bored you to tears with my streamofunconsciousness thoughts on the question, I've realilzed I am not a true outliner. I'll go vote.

[twoeyesgrn]

Hi! I’m new here. Thanks for the great advice and topics.
Anyway, I tried sitting down to start writing a novel with no thoughts as to where I would go, and spent several months never getting past the first chapter. With my current project, I have a general outline, and I’m going at a much better rate.

[arkady]

I agree with Maestrowork on this topic. Once I have the general drift of the story in my head, I put it down on paper in a fairly nonstructured way, just so I don't forget anything important while I'm working on the novel itself. As fresh ideas for plot developments come to me, I add them to the loose outline, again mainly so I won't forget them.

I've never been comfortable with formal outlines, but I do need these "reminders" to keep me on track from time to time, so this method works well for me.

[azbikergirl]

At first, I just jot notes in a doc called ideas or some such. I like to just let it come to me without worrying about form or function. Later, when I'm organizing scenes and trying to determine the best place for each, I find that an outline format works well. I can see at a high level what I've done so far.

[TashaGoddard]

I have a general (about 2 pages) outline that includes the main turning points, then a more specific one, split into chapters, and sometimes sections/scenes within chapters. And then I ignore all of this, and end up writing whatever comes to me at the time (at the moment, this has involved bringing a story/character that was originally only supposed to surface in the final third of the book into the first third of the book; no doubt more changes will come). I do find knowing roughly where I'm going helps, though.

[Betty W01]

If outlining per se doesn't appeal to you, check out Randy Ingermanson's Snowflake Method, at www.rsingermanson.com/html/the_snowflake.html (http://www.rsingermanson.com/html/the_snowflake.html)

I have several friends who swear by it!

[katdad]

It seems I'm about average compared with other writers.

In other words, I do create a general outline but nothing too specific, just general direction and a few critical ideas along the way.

I also sketch out the new characters I plan to introduce, and maybe jot down some "set piece" chapter ideas.

But that's about it. I don't work from a fixed or detailed outline at all. And often my original outline will be tossed as I get into the meat of the story.

[Jamesaritchie]

James--you never outline, right? There's more than one type of outline, and I'm sure you know that well, being a journalist (If memory serves.)

So you write your 50k or 100k novel and never have a TOC, title chapters, headings? It is one long lorem ipsum.

That's amazing to me. Makes me think you have a photographic memory and can keep your place in a long doc. I'm jealous!

It's actually more normal than not. It's amazing how few selling novelists outline. At least half, probably a good deal more, don't outline at all, and many of the rest outline very, very lightly.

I have a pretty good memory, but I don't think a novel really requires one.

Even with writers who do outline, I've known so many who write an outline that's no more than a a page or two.

I know the number of writers who don't outline is someting over half, but I suspect it's higher than many would believe. When I looked into the way my favorite writers worked, only one wrote novels from an outline.

That was good enough for me.

[maestrowork]

My outlines, if anything at all, is usually less than two pages... shorter than a full synopsis (which is done after I'm finished writing the book).

With my current WIP, I don't have any outline, really. I have notes on the upcoming five or six scenes (just to give me focus and moving forward in some direction), but nothing beyond those.

[Summonere]

On the outline or not question:

The question gives rise to other questions. Here they are:

1. Who among outliners or free writers has been published, and do these numbers say something about one approach versus the other?

2. How much have the outliners versus the free writers read, and how much do they continue to read?

3. How many stories have the outliners versus the free writers written?

Merely curious.

Here are my own answers: 1) Every story I've sold has been made up as I went along, but all of them started from a compelling idea. Every story I've outlined and then tried to write failed. 2) I read tons of novels and short stories before I ever considered trying to write one. I read only slightly less now. 3) The number is embarrassing. Let's say I've had a lot of practice.

[victoriastrauss]

1. Who among outliners or free writers has been published, and do these numbers say something about one approach versus the other?
Earlier, I metaphorically rolled my eyes at the topic of this thread, and was reproved by Gala. Questions like the one above are why I reacted as I did (no offense to you, Summonere--I mean this as a general comment, not aimed at you specifically). Almost every discussion of free write vs. outlines/synopses I've ever seen (and this is among the most frequently discussed issues on writers' message boards) inevitably segues into the issue of merit--whether one method is "better" than another and/or whether one method produces "better" work.

Neither method is intrinsically "better". Nor does whether you wing it or plan it out to the tiniest detail have any bearing whatever on the quality of your work--unless you're forcing yourself into a method that's not natural to you, because you heard somewhere that it was superior. What's best is what works, and what works for you won't necessarily work for another person.

I know many published novelists who pre-plan to various degrees, from minimal to obsessive. I know others who may do research, but don't pre-plan at all. I couldn't begin to say which is more common, and it's unsafe to guess at such things. You certainly can't tell by reading who plans and who doesn't. Nor is there any correlation between planning/not planning and success.

- Victoria

[HConn]

If I had taken a careful look and noticed that a vote for "outline" was a vote for "strict outline" I would not have bothered to vote.

An outline is just a first draft, written in a shorter form. It's no big deal.

[Mistook]

I have a vague outline in my head. I know generally where I want the plot to go, and how the book will end. I have several key scenes pictured in my mind, and as I write, I work toward those milestones.

But in writing, I've more than a few times followed some unexpected rabit trails that made the story better and became such major features that they forced me to rethink the plot and the outline.

By the same token, I've found that several ideas I began with lead to dead ends, and so I pruned off those parts for the sake of a better story.

I'm not saying a strict outline can't lead to a great finished novel, but it seems the creative process demands some level of flexibility and inspiration along the way.

[mistri]

I tend to outline more for my fantasy works than my contemporary ones - possibly because the fantasy ones are more plot heavy, whereas the latter revolve around the character a lot more (for me), and I feel a bit freer to let the character guide me.

I write more fantasy, however, so have written a fair few outlines. Nowadays tend to be 3-8 page word documents, roughly telling the story. If the story changes as I write the book, I change the outline. It's no big deal, most of the time.

[Richard]

Outline, but only as a guide - not holy writ. I often change things if I come up with a better idea, but I like to know roughly where I'm going with everything so that I can plot in mini-arcs, foreshadowing and other bits and pieces where necessary.

[JanaLanier]

I free write: take your interesting character, give her a situation -- GO! But I agree with Victoria. Do whatever works for you!

I will say that heavily plotted books often come off feeling predictable to me. You can figure out the ending by page 50. That kind of book bores me to tears. That's why I like the free write method -- the surprise is sincere (to the reader and the writer as well!).

[Angie]

It's interesting to see what works and what doesn't for others. I find that I have to have a bare-bones outline to keep the story going the right direction; otherwise, I have a bad tendency to write myself into a corner. But if I go too far with the outline, I get caught up in it and the story grinds to a halt. A very fine line, to be sure.




*This is my first non-newbie thread post. How'd I do? :D

[Jamesaritchie]

I agree with Victoria in saying you have to find the method that works for you. No one should write with an outline because it's something someone else says you should do, and no one should write without an outline because someone else says you should write without an outline. What works wonderfully for one writer often doesn't work at all for another writer.

Where I disagree with Victoria is that I do think you can tell a heavily outlined novel and plotted from one that hasn't been outlined. Process does affect product. This doesn't mean novels that haven't been outlined and plotted are better than ones that have been outlined and plotted, but I think there are distinct differences in the way they read.

One thing I've always done is look into the writing process of every writer I read, whether it's Shakespeare, Melville, or Lawrence Block, and I've always done so after I read their novels. Invariably, the novels I really like are written without outlines, and the novels I have trouble getting through are written with outlines. The only time I think I was ever wrong was with Robert J. Sawyer, and if you look at his outlines, they're pretty minimal.

This doesn't in any way mean one is better than the other, but it does mean they are different, and the difference shows through in the reading.

I've always thought the best way for a new writer to try writing a novel is whatever way his or her favorite writer goes about it. Process does affect product, and if you want to write the kind of novel you enjoy reading, I think it's a good idea to find out how those novels were written. Better yet, look at three or four of your favorite writers, those who write novels you can't put down. I'd be willing to bet all these writers go about the writing process pretty much the same way, whether it's outlining or not outlining.

And while I don't know the exact numbers of those who outline versus those who don't, I do know I only seldom come across a highly successful writer who outlines. This is probably because I'm not drawn to novels by writers who outline, so when I find a novel I like and look into the writer's process, there's at least a 90% chance it hasn't been outlined. But if nothing else, this proves to me there is a definite difference in the finished product.

It happens over and over and over. If I like the novel, then look into the writing process, I almost always find it wasn't outlined. If I have trouble getting through the novel for one reason or another, it's almost a dead certainty that when I look into the writing process I find it was outlined and plotted.

As I said, this in no way means one way is better than the other, but it does mean there's a difference I pick up on, and that on a personal level, I greatly prefer novels that haven't been outlined and plotted.

[maestrowork]

You can tell a lot of Stephen King's books were not outlined... you can tell how Dan Brown might have outlined his thrillers to death... They're both bestselling authors.

[Summonere]

victoriastrauss:

No offense. My questions relate to my observations in the way-back years when I was teaching. The students who were the best writers were the ones who were most comfortable writing, by which I mean they weren't afraid to simply sit down and write out their ideas from beginning to end. Those who clung to "the process" of outlining and various kinds of prewriting produced the stiffest and most mechanical prose of the lot. Without exception the best writers were also readers, by which I mean they were people who read for pleasure, not because they had to. Understandably, they had read a lot and therefore possessed heads full of patterns they could readily apply to their work.

But as far as outlining versus free writing goes, everybody has a shape or a feeling (some like to call it that) which they pursue until the story is done. Where we differ is whether we call this an outline or not, the tendency being to call that which is written an outline and that which is merely immanet, or felt, muse or free writing.

By the way, I didn't outline this response. Perhaps it shows. Ha ha.

[Daughter of Faulkner]

I just finished an outline for a novel. It was the last thing I wrote before writing the synopsis. It was the hardest piece of writing that I had to do. Now I believe that it is among my best writing. It exudes wonder, sparks interest, and shows control over the material by its creator.
Why?
That is just how it works for me--I write then many moons later find out, if then, why, I wrote in the first place. In short, it doesn't come together for me until the last page is written. I am always surprised by the process.

Of course, everyone is different.

[SJB]

Admittedly I'm only writing my first novel, but I couldn't imagine outlining it- much better to sit back and watch the weird junk my characters come out with. They're far more imaginative than I.

On the other hand, I can't write short stories without having the entire story clear in my head before I begin, so go figure. :Shrug:

[Puddle Jumper]

I should probably have a rough outline when I write to keep me on track and so I don't get frustrated when I lose sight of what should happen. But not a strict outline. I hated doing outlines for english class when I was a kid and having to follow a strict structure. As long as I have a basic understanding of where the story is heading, then I favor free write because it gives me freedom.

I aslo value editing. (Like I could write anything close to perfection on a first draft.) :b

SJB - I'm on my first novel too. Actually, my first novel keeps changing characters and plots. I'm really hoping the one I'm working on at the moment is a keeper that I'll actually complete. :D

[Mistook]

Real life doesn't happen according to any obvious outline, so a more organic story is probably going to be more satisfying to the reader, but then again, writing is entertainment, and certain things are expected of any story.

[JanaLanier]

As a side note, I extensively outlined an entire novel once... and never wrote it because I was bored with it. I knew exactly what was going to happen. Where's the fun in that? (har har!)

[E.G. Gammon]

The story I have been working on for over 7 years now, is now a novel series, and since the whole story will play out over numerous novels, and there are so many characters and subplots and things that need to come together, it's kind of hard for me to do all this WITHOUT an outline. So, that's what I'm working on now. I'm outlining the ENTIRE SERIES, because if I don't, I'll have a huge mess of inconsistencies. I need to know where things go and where I'm heading, before I jump into the writing. That's just the way that I am, always, and especially for this project of mine.

[Pencilone]

What do you think about outlining after the first draft is finished?

I use outlining as part of my revision/rewriting/editing process, to make sure the plot is consistent, etc. and at the same time I build up my 'chapter by chapter' outline that some publishers want on submission.

[maestrowork]

Pencilone, that's called a synopsis. ;) (Some agents/publishers do refer to the chapter-by-chapter synopsis as an "outline.")

[CACTUSWENDY]

:D I FIND I HAVE THE STORY IN MY MIND....START ...MIDDLE...AND END.....AND I THEN LET MY 'ACTORS' TAKE ME THRU IT.....ONCE IN AWHILE THEY CHANGE COURSE AND ADD A LITTLE EXTRA ON THEIR OWN....BUT I WALK WITH THEM.....NOT THEM WITH ME......I LOVE YOU GUYS........:snoopy: ..........WENDY.............

[Pencilone]

Pencilone, that's called a synopsis. ;) (Some agents/publishers do refer to the chapter-by-chapter synopsis as an "outline.")

Maestrowork,

Cheers for pointing that out! As long as it helps me build a better novel, I don't mind calling it even "Ideas On A String". I'll call it synopsis after I do a bit of chiselling to it.

Thanks,

Pencilone

PS: Congrats for your new book :)

[sthrnwriter]

Most of the time I just freewrite. Every now and then I do outlines, but even with outlines I tend to go off course.