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Dancre
05-10-2007, 06:37 AM
Ok, I love Mangas. Yes, I'm an adult who loves mangas. It's my weird passion. But I have a question. I've been lurking at other manga boards and it seems the writers have little interest in learning the craft of writing. In fact, writers are kinda seen as the lower life form. So what's up with that? In fact, on one board someone asked about learning the craft of writing and I suggested she come here to AW and sit at Uncle Jim's feet. She was very excited, but it yet no one else seemed to care. When the topic of writing comes up, most of the manga folks gloss over the craft as if it's a nuisance. Yet I've read some of the amature Mangas on people's websites and they are horribly written. Can someone please explain why some Manga writers refuse to study the art of writing, even the basics???

kim

TsukiRyoko
05-10-2007, 06:41 AM
Ok, I love Mangas. Yes, I'm an adult who loves mangas. It's my weird passion. I lurve you. :D

I don't know why more writers aren't interested in manga. But, I can understand why more of them aren't into learning the craft. Manga and comic books are mostly graphics and dialogue. A writer's craft is his/her words, not his/her art. Still, that doesn't stop them from reading it.... *grumble*

I've tried many times to compose a manga, and while the storyline is easy enough for me, I'm just not steady-handed enough to actually draw it myself. I've collaborated with friends on a few amateur mangas, but it didn't work out that well (at least, not in my experience. I know manga mangas who has both a writer and an illustrator, and it seemed to work out splendidly). I guess you gotta stick with what you're good at.

Dancre
05-10-2007, 06:48 AM
Yeah, maybe, but what I mean is how to advance a story line, create interesting characters, create interesting dialogue, know how to make the reader turn the page you know, the basics, just the basics, ma'am. LOL!!! And I love you too!! LOL!!!

kim

Snitchcat
05-10-2007, 06:48 PM
IMO, learning about storytelling depends on exactly who the manga artist / writer is.

The pros Do care about developing the story line, creating interesting characters, etc. If you take a look at the popular manga, most of them have a plot, great characters, development and turn-the-page action, etc.

From what I can see, many of the English-language manga forums are set up by amateurs for amateurs, who mayn't have any interest in developing the basics of storytelling with a view to going pro. Nothing wrong with that. I just can't see how those amateur forums that want their members to go pro can advance to such in the craft without more input from those further along the road. (I've given up going to these forums, so if my impression of them is wrong, please let me know.)

I liken this to an unpublished, amateur writer setting up a forum for other unpublished amateur writers, with a view to going pro, but without the pro input. It's doable, but it's not exactly the best way to go about it.

From my own study and experience of pro manga, the craft is, in fact, very similar to that of going pro with the writing. The focus, however, is on using images to present the story. Dialogue helps out.

Conceivably, you could take a well-crafted manga and almost use it as a film storyboard.

But, each to their own.

You know... I don't think I answered the original post. Um... I shall try again in a bit. Brain has just walked off with the mind and... something. Excuse me. Must go hunt them down. Again. :P

wordmonkey
05-11-2007, 03:19 AM
You might find this of some use...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53425

Dancre
05-11-2007, 04:01 AM
IMO, learning about storytelling depends on exactly who the manga artist / writer is.

The pros Do care about developing the story line, creating interesting characters, etc. If you take a look at the popular manga, most of them have a plot, great characters, development and turn-the-page action, etc.

From what I can see, many of the English-language manga forums are set up by amateurs for amateurs, who mayn't have any interest in developing the basics of storytelling with a view to going pro. Nothing wrong with that. I just can't see how those amateur forums that want their members to go pro can advance to such in the craft without more input from those further along the road. (I've given up going to these forums, so if my impression of them is wrong, please let me know.)

I liken this to an unpublished, amateur writer setting up a forum for other unpublished amateur writers, with a view to going pro, but without the pro input. It's doable, but it's not exactly the best way to go about it.

From my own study and experience of pro manga, the craft is, in fact, very similar to that of going pro with the writing. The focus, however, is on using images to present the story. Dialogue helps out.

Conceivably, you could take a well-crafted manga and almost use it as a film storyboard.

But, each to their own.

You know... I don't think I answered the original post. Um... I shall try again in a bit. Brain has just walked off with the mind and... something. Excuse me. Must go hunt them down. Again. :P

No, you did answer the post. And I think you're right. It's a shame, though. You can't go pro unless you work for it. Very sad. :( I've had to work my little white butt off just to learn the basics. But it's paying off!!

kim

Dancre
05-11-2007, 04:02 AM
You might find this of some use...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53425


thanks!!!

Turtle07
05-11-2007, 08:19 AM
Can someone please explain why some Manga writers refuse to study the art of writing, even the basics???

Cuz they're amateurs. Real manga writers who are actually published do know how to write. I've been to manga tutorial sites made by people (well, some aren't published and some are, but they are very good.) and they have lessons on their sites teaching manga learners how to write. The people u probably meet aren't serious about it if they don't want to learn writing. Writing and manga aren't that different, excpet manga consists of pictures with words, but still, no matter what, it's STILL writing.

Dancre
05-12-2007, 05:20 AM
Do you have those websites? I'm interested in writing a manga and I need to see how it's done. Thanks!!!

Sai
05-13-2007, 12:01 AM
I've never encountered the attitude you described, Dancre. In my experiance most people interested in creating manga value the story and the art.

A good place to learn about writing manga would be the Tokyopop message boards (www.tokyopop.com). There's tons of fans and professional creators online there, so you can read what they have to say about writing manga.

Turtle07
05-13-2007, 01:20 AM
Do you have those websites? I'm interested in writing a manga and I need to see how it's done. Thanks!!!

I haven't been on those sites in a while since I found AW and started to draw less. :o I probably won't be able to list all I went to, (And there were some very good ones, darn it, I should have written them down. But I had been browsing and just happened upon them. :poke: ) but I'll do what I can.

http://www.mangatutorials.com/

They changed the section on story-writing since I was last there. I think they shortened it. :( But they did add more on manga-making and character-making. :Clap:

http://www.mangathrash.com/

Has some links to sites with writing tutorials. Just click on Artist Resource Center below on the left hand side.

http://www.kabukiyasha.net/index.php

It has tutorials for story-making. I looked at it, pretty good! :D

Have fun learning! :)

Dancre
05-13-2007, 04:16 AM
Thanks, Turtle!! I did some investigating myself and decided to google manga scripts to see how they are done and well, I found lots of manga scripts out there.

http://www.ear-tweak.com/iy_manga/v34/329/329_script.htm

It seems to write a manga script means to write a regular script. Soooo I thnk I'll slip on over to SYW and start hanging out there for a while. Thanks so much, turtle. you've really put me on the right track!!! Maybe I'll write a book on writing a manga? mmm . . .

kim

jedimaster107
05-13-2007, 05:43 AM
I love reading mangas and think they're better then most comics out there right now. i have an idea for a manga serise. but every time i see something about writing mangas, i always see submissions for drawing and writing. Never just the script part. And when i do a search for just writing mangas, i just find how to draw.

The question i have is: I don't know how to draw and i don't know anyone who could draw. What does a person like me do in this succuation?

Dancre
05-13-2007, 05:56 AM
You might find this of some use...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53425


Whew!! I finally, finally, finally got through all 6 pages. So writing a manga is the same as writing a superman comic. Ok, now it's starting to come together. Study how to write superman and you can write Ninja manga. Got it. It seems to follow the same basic writing rules as novel writing. Basic that is. But my first love will always be novel writing. sigh . . . Thanks, Wordmonkey. Now I need to get the formating down. It seems like when I finally got writing all together, boom!! There's something new to study.

kim

Dancre
05-13-2007, 06:08 AM
I love reading mangas and think they're better then most comics out there right now. i have an idea for a manga serise. but every time i see something about writing mangas, i always see submissions for drawing and writing. Never just the script part. And when i do a search for just writing mangas, i just find how to draw.

The question i have is: I don't know how to draw and i don't know anyone who could draw. What does a person like me do in this succuation?


Well, you can do what I'm going to do. Start by writing the craft of comic/manga writing. Learn how to write a great script and all the techniques involved in the process. I suggest posting your script under the script section. Or perhaps the mods would allow us to post our scripts here under the comic section since there isn't a section for comic/manga writers to share their work. Someone said in the thread that wordmonkey posted that if the script is good enough, someone will want to do the art work. So follow Ms Snark's words: "Write well."

Here's some links I have found on writing comics/mangas. (I'm assuming writing a manga is the same as writing a comic.)
http://www.joeedkin.com/ THis is how to write the comic/manga. Joe also says to learn the basics of writing. So I also suggest going through Uncle Jim's thread. Also go through the SYW threads and see corrections writers make to others' stories. Also here's a whole bunch of articles on writing mangas/comics: http://www.members.shaw.ca/creatingcomics/writers.html I also suggest looking up writing comics instead of mangas. here's one more: http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/cwrite/writing.html, and http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2898/real.html


In fact, Wordmonkey, PeeDee, if you two could, how about starting a Writing with Uncle Wordmonkey and PeeDee thread for those of us who want to learn to write mangas/comics?? Please??? THere's so much to learn and sooo many questions. Unless of course, time restraints will stop you. Understandable.

How about if I start now? Uncle Word and PeeDee, do you 'show' as opposed to 'tell' in the manga/comic as in novels? How important is 'show' to the manga/comic? Also, why do the artists/writers use close ups of the MCs? Is this to emphasize something?



kim

Turtle07
05-13-2007, 08:29 AM
Ur welcome Dancre. Me and friend, excuse me, a friend and I attempted to write a manga. We knew how to write it, it was the drawing part that gave us trouble. While she's superb at drawing (I'm somewhat between a bad amatuer and ok-beginner), she and I couldn't do detailed drawings with all the scenery and stuff and we had trouble sticking to the plot cuz it never seemed right and we changed it multiple times. So I wish u the best of luck! It takes tons of patience to do a manga.

Sai
05-13-2007, 04:03 PM
The question i have is: I don't know how to draw and i don't know anyone who could draw. What does a person like me do in this succuation?

Well, there's this thing called the internet where you can meet people from all over the world ;). You don't need to know an artist in real life in order to work together. Pratically all of my collaborations have been done with people hundreds of miles away.

When I'm lloking for an artist, there's two things I do: 1. Look for 'writer wanted posts' at plaes like http://www.digitalwebbing.com/talent/writers.html or the online comics forums, http://www.onlinecomics.net/pages/forums/. If I don't find anyone I like, I make an 'artist wanted' post. It's hard often to get a good artist, because they are in such high demand they can pretty much pick and choose what projects they want to do.

Even if you don't have an artist, keep writing! I have tons of undrawn scripts just sitting on my hard drive. Maybe they'll get published someday, maybe not, but it's good practice and also good samples to show to interested artists.

Dancre (or can I call you Kim?), I'd like a place to post comic scripts too. I was thinking of just putting them in the scriptwriting forum, but I want to make sure people would read it (and I can't blame them, comic scripts are hard to read since you constantly have to visualize everything).

How about if I start now? Uncle Word and PeeDee, do you 'show' as opposed to 'tell' in the manga/comic as in novels? How important is 'show' to the manga/comic?

I'm not either of thsoe people, but I'd like to try and answer your questions anyway. Showing is very important. After all, comics are a visual medium.

An example of 'telling' in comics would be from old super-hero comics, i.e. a panel of Superman jumping through a window, with a caption box stating "And then Superman jumped through the window" and a speech bubble where Superman says "I'm jumping out a window." All you need to do is state things once, visually. That's not to say words are bad, but the words should express something that can't be stated in pictures (my favorite example of these is EC horror comics from the 50's. If you just flipped through an issue you might think "Wow, there's a lot of text! The panels are half filled with words! " but if you read them you would see how well the words and pictures work to tell a story and create atmosphere).

I love comics as a medium because for all the BAM! POW! BOOM! associated with it, it can be a very subtle medium, showing things in pictures without every calling attention to them with words.

Dancre
05-13-2007, 09:19 PM
Well, there's this thing called the internet where you can meet people from all over the world ;). You don't need to know an artist in real life in order to work together. Pratically all of my collaborations have been done with people hundreds of miles away.

When I'm lloking for an artist, there's two things I do: 1. Look for 'writer wanted posts' at plaes like http://www.digitalwebbing.com/talent/writers.html or the online comics forums, http://www.onlinecomics.net/pages/forums/. If I don't find anyone I like, I make an 'artist wanted' post. It's hard often to get a good artist, because they are in such high demand they can pretty much pick and choose what projects they want to do.

Even if you don't have an artist, keep writing! I have tons of undrawn scripts just sitting on my hard drive. Maybe they'll get published someday, maybe not, but it's good practice and also good samples to show to interested artists.


Amen!!!!


Dancre (or can I call you Kim?), You can call me whatever you want, just don't call me late for dinner!!! LOL!!!!

I'd like a place to post comic scripts too. I was thinking of just putting them in the scriptwriting forum, but I want to make sure people would read it (and I can't blame them, comic scripts are hard to read since you constantly have to visualize everything).

I just PMed MacAllister and asked her for our own special place on SYW. I suggest PMing her and letting her know we need our own place to play.

I'm not either of thsoe people, but I'd like to try and answer your questions anyway. Showing is very important. After all, comics are a visual medium.

An example of 'telling' in comics would be from old super-hero comics, i.e. a panel of Superman jumping through a window, with a caption box stating "And then Superman jumped through the window" and a speech bubble where Superman says "I'm jumping out a window." All you need to do is state things once, visually. That's not to say words are bad, but the words should express something that can't be stated in pictures (ding, ding, ding!!) (my favorite example of these is EC horror comics from the 50's. If you just flipped through an issue you might think "Wow, there's a lot of text! The panels are half filled with words! " but if you read them you would see how well the words and pictures work to tell a story and create atmosphere).

I love comics as a medium because for all the BAM! POW! BOOM! associated with it, it can be a very subtle medium, showing things in pictures without every calling attention to them with words.


Cool!! Would this be telling: I read a girl's amatured manga on another website. The girl had a dream about a boy, woke up and picked up a picture sitting next to the bed. Mom knocked on the door. Panel 1: girl is again laying in bed with a note at the bottom of the panel saying 'pretending'.

So showing would be: panel 1: girl lies back down, panel 2: pulls covers over herself. panel 3: closes eyes and opens mouth. Panel 4: mom comes in and wakes her up. Yes??

I was thinking about all of this today and it seems easier to understand writing the manga now b/c I know how to write a novel. It seems you bring the same basic techniques over from the novel to the manga. Am I right?? And a writer would use the same techniques used to write a comic to write a manga, yes?? The techniques are interchangable. Yes??

Thank you so very much!!!

kim

jedimaster107
05-13-2007, 09:57 PM
Thanks everyone! :D

SilverVistani
05-17-2007, 11:03 AM
First off: Feh... what's wrong with being an adult that likes manga? I know many who do.

Secondly: I've never been entirely certain about the idea of writing my own manga. Part of my problem is that I'm constantly tossing between wanting to write the same plots as a novel and then suddenly wanting to draw it out as a manga and then wanting to write it again. It's craziness in my brain! ^_^()

I noted that many of you had commented on needing someone to do the drawing. This intrigues me a bit and, if I had more confidence in myself so far as time constraints and motivation, I'd offer to make the attempt at working with one/some of you. Currently, I have plans to draw a comic/manga written by a good friend of mine, (plot was come up between the two of us and we decided to split it that way) but she's yet to get me any of the script yet.

Hmmm... tell you what... I generally motivate better if I've got someone else expecting something from me. So here goes...

I have a deviantart account. silvervistani.deviantart.com If any of you would like (no pressure, either way is fine with me, I'm just plugging here) feel free to browse around and let me know what you think. I've still got a way to go, but I've improved greatly over the past couple years in leaps and bounds. (at least, that's what people keep telling me, and I definitely see a difference between my current and older works.

Umm... yeah. So that's what I have to say/offer to those of you writing manga. ^_^() *runs away, mildly embarrassed*

~Kitty :e2cat:

wordmonkey
05-17-2007, 07:00 PM
In fact, Wordmonkey, PeeDee, if you two could, how about starting a Writing with Uncle Wordmonkey and PeeDee thread for those of us who want to learn to write mangas/comics?? Please??? THere's so much to learn and sooo many questions. Unless of course, time restraints will stop you. Understandable.

I can't speak for m' colleague, but I don't have a problem with this. Though I should say (with appropriate blushing) I haven't looked at the Uncle Jim thread, so I'm not sure what I'm agreeing to.

Lemme look and get back to you.

wordmonkey
05-17-2007, 07:04 PM
The question i have is: I don't know how to draw and i don't know anyone who could draw. What does a person like me do in this succuation?

Well, all you need to learn is one face and that covers all manga faces, right?

BWAH HA HA HA HAR!

I kid.

Look on deviant (http://www.deviantart.com/) and you'll find artist out the whazoo. All the same issues apply for landing one, but it's do-able

SilverVistani
05-17-2007, 10:46 PM
Deviant Art is definitely a good place to look. I've got an account there (as mentioned in my last post).

http://silvervistani.deviantart.com

Dancre
05-19-2007, 04:07 AM
Wow, Silver, nice pictures!! very good.

kim

SilverVistani
05-19-2007, 04:14 AM
Wow, Silver, nice pictures!! very good.

^_^() Danke, danke... Thank you very much.

I actually did some work this past semester that was pages from a comic idea I'd come up with. I hope to get those in my gallery soon. I just can't decide whether I want to put all of them up, because they span the entirety of the story, and if I ever do get around to filling in the rest, the later pages would serve as spoilers. ><* I'm so neurotic that I worry over this sort of thing to the point where I haven't put any of it up yet.

Jaoman
05-19-2007, 09:03 AM
So writing a manga is the same as writing a superman comic. Ok, now it's starting to come together.

NO!!! NO!!! NO!!! BLASPHEMY!!! HERESY!!! PERVERSION OF NATURE!!! NEVER SAY THAT AGAIN!!! :Soapbox:

Ahem… Sorry, I don’t know you that well, so the capitalization was probably a bit out of line. However, there are just so many things wrong with that statement!

First of all, let me get somewhat anal here. Speaking purely technically, manga is an artistic style. It’s most telling characteristic, of course, is its treatment of the human body. I’m talking about the big eyes, check mark noses, and other misrepresentations and exaggerations of anatomy. That said, “writing a manga” is an oxymoron. That should answer your OP question.

On the other hand, being inspired by Japanese comic book writing is something completely different. I get the impression that that’s what you’re trying to get at. And that is nothing at all like writing a superman comic.

You’ve already read some of what I have to say on the issue in the critique forum. That was more focused on script issues. This time, I’m going to talk about more global issues. Actually, when you break it down, the main difference can be described with a single idea: pacing. One of the shortest Japanese series I know is Akira. I don’t remember the exact page count, but I did make an estimate once and I believe it is in excess of 2000 pages. This is one story. In terms of superman comics, a single creative team in America produces one 22 page issue per month. So then, one of the shortest Japanese comic stories I know can be compared to 100 issues of an American comic and about nine years of work. I happen to know that Akira took around ten.

The average Superman story lasts about six issues, 132 pages, and six months of work. A very small fraction of what we see with Akira. We might say that the scope of the Superman story is smaller. This is certainly true, but not nearly as much as all that. So then, the next obvious question is how do we account for this difference. And that brings me back to pacing.

Comparing an American mainstream comic book story to a Japanese comic book story is somewhat akin to comparing a detailed outline to a novel. The superman comic will have all the plot points briefly covered, a little scene for each and on to the next. We do not pause for much character development, drama, or theme. We hardly need to or can, for that matter: Superman comics have 80 years of continuity behind them. The goal of a Superman comic is to get through the story arc so the next story arc can begin. Superman comics never end. And they never begin for that matter.

Japanese comics are the exact opposite. If you want to get a sense of what it is like, take an expert movie, say Apocalypse Now, and for every frame write a panel description. Step by step. It seems horrible slow when you think about it. But it works in the movie and it works for Japanese comics. And even that is still with the understanding that Apocalypse Now would be a very small and clumsy story by Japanese comic book standards. All the development is truncated. A Japanese comic moves slowly, religiously awing the reader with magnificent scenery. It stops everything for character development, drama, and theme. Compared to a Superman comic, a Japanese comic covers a great deal less in 130 pages. But that is not important, the important thing is that the payloads, when they come, hit with immense psychological power and precision. If an American writer is going to show superman flying out a window, a Japanese comic writer is going to try to show what it feels like to fly.

Oh, and sorry for taking my frustration about having too much school work to write out on you. A concentration of computer studies make for some desperation typing.

wordmonkey
05-19-2007, 06:33 PM
NO!!! NO!!! NO!!! BLASPHEMY!!! HERESY!!! PERVERSION OF NATURE!!! NEVER SAY THAT AGAIN!!! :Soapbox:

Ahem… Sorry, I don’t know you that well, so the capitalization was probably a bit out of line. However, there are just so many things wrong with that statement!

{pruned down by me from it's original manga-length}

Oh, and sorry for taking my frustration about having too much school work to write out on you. A concentration of computer studies make for some desperation typing.

OK, let me say, with the greatest respect, and tons of monkey love...

What a bunch of carp.

You build a Superman comic the same way you build a manga. That was the point of the question and the response. The degree of detail is a side issue.

If it helps someone who wants to write their own book, be that Western or Eastern in influence, to get a handle on the process through something they can readily grasp, don't be getting all pius about the purity of manga and throw them off.

And as for you beating up on Supes as a comparison, that was disingenuous at best. Because since you seem to know what you are talking about, you should also know that a better example would be to compare Akira to Maus or The Watchmen or From Hell. Those are graphic novels, self contained and intended to go only as far as the one story arc, and you know this.

However, the way you structure and build and deliver your story, is the same. If you feel the need to write or read about every single nuance of a character's existence, good luck to you. But lets be honest, seeing EVERYTHING, like how that new brand of tofu gave the hero really bad gas and how said hero needed to fart a lot and how that farting felt and the emotional impact said farting had on the development of the character is just DULL.

And it's bad writing. Not bad comics, not bad East vs. West, just bad WRITING.

But I digress. Like I said, if that example allows someone a handle on the process, don't pull their legs out from under them.

Jaoman
05-19-2007, 07:59 PM
You build a Superman comic the same way you build a manga. That was the point of the question and the response. The degree of detail is a side issue.

If it helps someone who wants to write their own book, be that Western or Eastern in influence, to get a handle on the process through something they can readily grasp, don't be getting all pius about the purity of manga and throw them off.

That’s like telling someone who wants to write sifi that it’s the same as harlequin romance. They both have plots. They both have characters. They both have, uh, sentences. You figure out harlequin romances and you’ve got sifi nailed, baby! Guarantee! I should very much like to see your protégé come to a sifi editor’s office with a harlequin manuscript. Can you say THUMP?

And as for you beating up on Supes as a comparison, that was disingenuous at best. Because since you seem to know what you are talking about, you should also know that a better example would be to compare Akira to Maus or The Watchmen or From Hell. Those are graphic novels, self contained and intended to go only as far as the one story arc, and you know this.

True enough. If you can figure out how to write like Alan Moore, Dancre, you’ll write some excellent comics. No sarcasm about it.

However, wordmonkey, you’re talking about the VERY best of the best in the history of American comics as opposed to stuff being released this month in Japan. Does that not seem like somewhat of a skewed comparison to you? What’s more, if you observe the panel progression techniques used by Alan Moore, you will see that it is far more like Japanese comics than American. And as a result of this combined with restriction of American page counts and story demands per issue, Alan Moore was forced to stuff an inordinate amount of panels per page to progress his story. The result of this is that its clunky and doesn’t take advantage of artistic excellence to nearly the degree of manga comics.

However, the way you structure and build and deliver your story, is the same.

I think I made it clear that the relationship does not extend beyond structure. If you wish to argue otherwise, you’d best rebut my statistic or tell me why I’m wrong. Else we can spend pages ignoring each other in our debate. That’s fun too sometimes, but I was being serious.

But I digress. Like I said, if that example allows someone a handle on the process, don't pull their legs out from under them.

- “Oh, I have big plans, sir! I’m going to defeat Adolf Hitlers armies. Say, can you tell me how big they are?”
- “What an admirable goal, young Jommy. Fear not, there is nothing for you to worry about. Just a small cavalry and no more than fifty infantry tops. If you raise a small force, you should be able to mow right through them.”
- “Oh, thanks you, sir!”
- “Never give up on your dreams, Jommy!”

Our story ends with young Jommy and his small band of heroes being slaughtered by a very amused Panzer division.

And the moral of the story is that there is a difference between support and misinformation. If someone sets out on a goal, s/he needs to know the criteria and the actual scope of what is required. It’s no different from critique. Truth is essential for success. Sugarcoating only creates confusion.

Dancre
05-19-2007, 08:15 PM
Jaoman:

NO!!! NO!!! NO!!! BLASPHEMY!!! HERESY!!! PERVERSION OF NATURE!!! NEVER SAY THAT AGAIN!!! :Soapbox:

Ahem… Sorry, I don’t know you that well, so the capitalization was probably a bit out of line. However, there are just so many things wrong with that statement!

LOL!! THat's ok!

First of all, let me get somewhat anal here. Speaking purely technically, manga is an artistic style. It’s most telling characteristic, of course, is its treatment of the human body. I’m talking about the big eyes, check mark noses, and other misrepresentations and exaggerations of anatomy. That said, “writing a manga” is an oxymoron. That should answer your OP question.

Well, as wordmonkey said, bad writing is bad writing. I've read some 'manga' on Tokyopop that read like a PA book, made me want to poke out my own eyeballs. And it had nothing to do with the art. In fact, I read a manga recently on a website (and I wish I had bookmarked the website.) and the artist was a true manga-ka who worked on Naruto and other great mangas. She and an amature writer worked together on a manga for a TP contest. Well, let me tell ya, the art was great!! But the writing, oh, dear God save my eyes!! it was HORRIBLE!! GACK!! The writer (Get this, wordmonkey) had the characters in ANOTHER realm, but used OUR cliques. ARG!!! Thank God Ms Snark wasn't near. She would have thrown her her stilettos all the way to Japan just to hit this manga-ka!! The writer had people popping up all over the place, but you had NO idea who they were!! Who are all these people?? Oh, it was so sad. All I could think of was, Manga-ka, don't quit your day job. Then I realized someone else wrote it. Gasp!! So I think what WordMonkey meant was the writing tech are the same, but the story structure is different. Also I've looked at the scripts of popular Manga and western comics and they are almost exactly the same. The only exceptions I have seen is in the Manga, the MC picks up minor characters along the way, interacts with them, and then drops them off at the bus stop and moves on. Western literature freaks out over this. YIKES!! Again, I can see Ms Snarks red heels fly through the air. LOL!! BUT, (and here's what I'm trying to grapple) ALL the chapters have the SAME story arch and it weaves all these mini stories together. That is genuis!!! But the writer in me feels the heels hitting my face and I say, "YOU CAN'T DROP THE MINOR CHARACTER AT THE BUS STOP AND GO ON!!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING???" sigh . . . It's like raking your nails on the blackboard.


On the other hand, being inspired by Japanese comic book writing is something completely different. I get the impression that that’s what you’re trying to get at. And that is nothing at all like writing a superman comic.



The average Superman story lasts about six issues, 132 pages, and six months of work. A very small fraction of what we see with Akira. We might say that the scope of the Superman story is smaller. This is certainly true, but not nearly as much as all that. So then, the next obvious question is how do we account for this difference. And that brings me back to pacing.

Comparing an American mainstream comic book story to a Japanese comic book story is somewhat akin to comparing a detailed outline to a novel. The superman comic will have all the plot points briefly covered, a little scene for each and on to the next. We do not pause for much character development, drama, or theme. We hardly need to or can, for that matter: Superman comics have 80 years of continuity behind them. The goal of a Superman comic is to get through the story arc so the next story arc can begin. Superman comics never end. And they never begin for that matter.

Japanese comics are the exact opposite. If you want to get a sense of what it is like, take an expert movie, say Apocalypse Now, and for every frame write a panel description. Step by step. It seems horrible slow when you think about it. But it works in the movie and it works for Japanese comics. And even that is still with the understanding that Apocalypse Now would be a very small and clumsy story by Japanese comic book standards. All the development is truncated. A Japanese comic moves slowly, religiously awing the reader with magnificent scenery. It stops everything for character development, drama, and theme. Compared to a Superman comic, a Japanese comic covers a great deal less in 130 pages. But that is not important, the important thing is that the payloads, when they come, hit with immense psychological power and precision. If an American writer is going to show superman flying out a window, a Japanese comic writer is going to try to show what it feels like to fly.

Now I don't read Western comics b/c I just can't seem to get into them, so I have nothing to compare against. So with that said, I can only tell what I like about Manga and think what you said above is the reason why. You're right, the manga does linger on the characters, create interesting characters, etc, BUT again, all of this turns back to knowing how to write. I've read articles by Joe Edkins and others and they also stress the sames things as you are saying i.e the importance of character development, plots, making the reader turn the page, etc. The only difference that I have seen is the author. So the writer does use the same fundimentals in the comic WRITING but the story structure is different. It's the same as if you were to give WordMonkey and I the same plot, characters, story line ect and told us to write the story, our stories would be differently structured, but have the same plot etc. Adn we would use the same writing tech, i.e. show not tell, strong dialogue, what makes the writer turn the page, etc.

And of course, the art is different. That's a given, but you use the same fundimental writing techniques. But the pacing is different, the plots are different, the arcs are different, picking up characters and dropping them off the bus stop and making Ms Stark's head spin like Linda Blair is, well, chilling, but the techniques seem to be the same. It's the putting it all together that seems different.


Oh, and sorry for taking my frustration about having too much school work to write out on you. A concentration of computer studies make for some desperation typing.

I understand, dear, it's ok. LOL!!!

Dancre
05-19-2007, 08:19 PM
That’s like telling someone who wants to write sifi that it’s the same as harlequin romance. They both have plots. They both have characters. They both have, uh, sentences. You figure out harlequin romances and you’ve got sifi nailed, baby! Guarantee! I should very much like to see your protégé come to a sifi editor’s office with a harlequin manuscript. Can you say THUMP?

But you use the same foundations: i.e. show not tell, strong dialogue, interesting plots, etc. Learn the foundations, then move on to the plot structure. This is what WordMonkey means by learn to write comics then transfer the tech over to manga, using the manga plot structure. I write YA, but I read not only YA's but depressing Oprah books, pop fiction, love stories, etc and glean what I can to transfer to my YA book. Capise??

I'm reading a book called Trinity Blood by Sunao Yoshida. It's the novel for the manga Trinity Blood. Now Sunao's writing style is totally different from my writing style. Sunao does the normal invite the minor character in for brunch, then drop him off at the bus stop style while staying in the same story arc. But he uses the same writing tech as I do, i.e. show not tell, strong dialogue, strong characters, foreshadowing, etc. Everything in Uncle Jim's thread is in Sunao's book. THe only difference is the structure- the way the plot is put together. To me this is the same as the manga vs the western comic. the tech are the same, but the structure (the waythe plot is put together) is different.

I think this is why you'll never find a "how to write a manga" book, b/c the writers use the same tech in the comics, only structure the story differently. At least I haven't found a 'how to write a manga' book. You can learn the structure by studying the manga, but you can't learn how to show, create strong dialogue, create interesting characters etc unless you study how to do it, at least this is what I"ve learned.

kim

chibeth
05-19-2007, 09:39 PM
That’s like telling someone who wants to write sifi that it’s the same as harlequin romance. They both have plots. They both have characters. They both have, uh, sentences. You figure out harlequin romances and you’ve got sifi nailed, baby! Guarantee! I should very much like to see your protégé come to a sifi editor’s office with a harlequin manuscript. Can you say THUMP?

Well, I HAVE written both sci-fi and an actual honest-to-God Harlequin romance (for Bombshell). And guess what? The techniques used for writing both were the same.

The basic building blocks of storytelling (plot, pace, character) don't change, and neither do the techniques for visual storytelling. The difference between manga and western style comics/graphic novels (and category romance vs. sci-fi) is style, not technique. And I think that was the original point. You learn the basic techniques and then use them to develop your own style, or to fit your work into an existing one. That doesn't mean one style is somehow magically superior to the other.

I've read some truly excremental manga, but that doesn't mean I think it's shitty as a whole. Its form may be more to your liking, but that's just your preference. Implying they're somehow more pure than American comics is like saying horror novels are somehow superior to fantasy novels--illogical.

Jaoman
05-19-2007, 10:04 PM
Now I don't read Western comics b/c I just can't seem to get into them, so I have nothing to compare against. So with that said, I can only tell what I like about Manga and think what you said above is the reason why. You're right, the manga does linger on the characters, create interesting characters, etc, BUT again, all of this turns back to knowing how to write. I've read articles by Joe Edkins and others and they also stress the sames things as you are saying i.e the importance of character development, plots, making the reader turn the page, etc. The only difference that I have seen is the author. So the writer does use the same fundimentals in the comic WRITING but the story structure is different. It's the same as if you were to give WordMonkey and I the same plot, characters, story line ect and told us to write the story, our stories would be differently structured, but have the same plot etc. Adn we would use the same writing tech, i.e. show not tell, strong dialogue, what makes the writer turn the page, etc.

And of course, the art is different. That's a given, but you use the same fundimental writing techniques. But the pacing is different, the plots are different, the arcs are different, picking up characters and dropping them off the bus stop and making Ms Stark's head spin like Linda Blair is, well, chilling, but the techniques seem to be the same. It's the putting it all together that seems different.

Of course. But when you begin to introduce context such as medium or influence into the discussion it’s the putting it all together aspect that becomes key. It's no different from a film student going out to study Coppola. The stuff he learns in film school, that's basic, raw skills. He can create a masterpiece like The Godfather or he can create something like Scary Movie. The skills are necessary, of course. But if he wants to create the Godfather and not Scary Movie then he must ask what it is that's done in the Godfather that makes it different from Scary Movie. Context, see?

The question how do the Japanese write comics (good Japanese comic writers, just to narrow it down more, because there are no absolutes) has even more context. And you cannot answer it by saying that they are doing it the same as everyone else. They are not. They stand out. If they didn't, we wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

I think this is why you'll never find a "how to write a manga" book, b/c the writers use the same tech in the comics, only structure the story differently. At least I haven't found a 'how to write a manga' book. You can learn the structure by studying the manga, but you can't learn how to show, create strong dialogue, create interesting characters etc unless you study how to do it, at least this is what I"ve learned.

I disagree. I can easily picture a book called “Japanese Comic Creation Techniques”. Or something to that effect. Mastery is all about little tricks. Everyone agrees on grammar, beginning, middle, and end. On the other hand, treatment and detail are the reason one person can produce tears while the other can’t. Learning how to write, in and off itself, is just isn’t enough. And if you are going to learn, well, you may as well learn from the masters.

wordmonkey
05-19-2007, 10:22 PM
Chibeth and Dancre:

Thanks for the back-up. Reassuring that what I thought I was saying was at least seen by someone.

You're right. My comments were primarly regarding the mechanics of how you pull the writing all together.

And everything that holds true for prose as far as what you need to do as writer, carries across here. Additionally, the way you construct the script, pace the thing, story beats, scene changes and the way you not only write for your reader but also for your art team, is ALL completely the same for western or eastern comics.

The reason for this is that whether you call it a comic, a graphic novel, manga, or something else, it's still a comic book. It's a story told in print, with a heavy emphasis on the visual, art-side of things. The length of the story is irrelevent. The subject of the story is irrelevent. The style of art is irrelevent. The genre is irrelevent. The way you sit down and create the script for them all is basically the same. And THAT was my point.

If someone thinks that manga is vastly superior to western comics, great, enjoy your books. But to uses a previous reference, that's like saying romance is vastly superior to sci-fi, becaue romance has love in it and quite often sweaty biceps and heaving breasts breaking free of the confines of corsets. Just silly.

Jaoman
05-19-2007, 10:34 PM
I've read some truly excremental manga, but that doesn't mean I think it's shitty as a whole. Its form may be more to your liking, but that's just your preference. Implying they're somehow more pure than American comics is like saying horror novels are somehow superior to fantasy novels--illogical.

On the other hand, implying that a horror author does something better than a fantasy author because the horror author is able to produce a certain reaction in me and the fantasy author is not is not at all illogical. It is merely a formulation of cause and effect. Assuming that my psychology is not totally diverse from all other people and that others have experienced the same phenomenon, the statement becomes objective.

And the same would be true on the other side of the equation as well. If a fantasy author is able to inspire a reaction that a horror author cannot, the fantasy author is doing something right.

But by no means do the two statements cancel each other out. The cause to the effect is the crux of my argument.

Dancre
05-20-2007, 01:45 AM
Chibeth and Dancre:

Thanks for the back-up. Reassuring that what I thought I was saying was at least seen by someone.

You're right. My comments were primarly regarding the mechanics of how you pull the writing all together.

And everything that holds true for prose as far as what you need to do as writer, carries across here. Additionally, the way you construct the script, pace the thing, story beats, scene changes and the way you not only write for your reader but also for your art team, is ALL completely the same for western or eastern comics.

The reason for this is that whether you call it a comic, a graphic novel, manga, or something else, it's still a comic book. It's a story told in print, with a heavy emphasis on the visual, art-side of things. The length of the story is irrelevent. The subject of the story is irrelevent. The style of art is irrelevent. The genre is irrelevent. The way you sit down and create the script for them all is basically the same. And THAT was my point.

If someone thinks that manga is vastly superior to western comics, great, enjoy your books. But to uses a previous reference, that's like saying romance is vastly superior to sci-fi, becaue romance has love in it and quite often sweaty biceps and heaving breasts breaking free of the confines of corsets. Just silly.


I just came back from Barnes and Noble and I got this book called "Writing and Illustrating the Graphic Novel, Everything you need to know to create the great Graphic Works" By Mike Chinn. Now in the begining Mike basically writes what Uncle Jim did regarding writing tech, then he goes into the script making. Then I went to my bookshelves and found, ta-da!! "Shoujo Manga techniques, writing stories." I don't even remember buying this book, but it was quite a while ago. So I started going through both books, just to see, and well, WordMonkey, both books have the same writing script techniques, just as you said. In fact, in there's a small blib about mangas and it says, ". . . Then, in 1947, Osuma Tezuka wrote and drew the first novel-length story . . . mixing techniques from early cinema and the cartoon style of the west . . ." So they DO use western cartoon/comic techniques. The only difference I have seen, as I said above, is the style of writing. Now the manga technique book does go into detail on how to create different mini stories for each book the author writes, which is interesting and good to know, but all the techniques are the same. So now that I've paid $21.00 for my graphic novel tech book, which is the same as the manga tech book, I think I'll go wallow in my dispair that I wasted my money. sigh . . . anyway, it's good to know they're written the same way.

And I think the 'mystery of the manga' comes, imo, from our old friend show vs tell. I'm reading vol 5 of Samurai Deeper and it really shows a lot of the story in the pictures as opposed to the dialogue. Very artsy. In fact, it seems the manga gets more into the senery as opposed to the western graphic novel. (There are examples of western gothic novels in the gothic tech book). Another difference. Now the manga tech book did say to use the scenery as a way to define the character, and "Fiction Writers Workshop" by Josip Navakovich also says to use the scenery as a way to define the character. Interesting, huh, that the whole realm of writing, whether it be manga, western comics, novels, poems, ads, whatever revolves around one thing: Show vs tell?

And another difference between western vs manga, manga has lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of naked women. No naked men, nope, naked women. yeah, ok, uh-uh. (rolls eyes.)

kim

Jaoman
05-20-2007, 02:05 AM
:flag:

Dancre
05-20-2007, 02:20 AM
:flag:

Ah, hon, I'm sorry, LOL!! We're not picking on you, I was just making a very EXPENSIVE observation, that's all. Don't feel bad.

And I just love my vol 5 of Samuria deeper. It's really good.

kim

wordmonkey
05-20-2007, 03:24 AM
As they say around these parts...

's all good.

In all honesty, I think that while the very basics of storytelling are the same regardless of your chosen field, to my mind, you can learn a great deal from working in other areas.

My scriptwriting was of great benefit to my prose work. My short story writing made my long-form work tighter. My visual-storytelling in comic scripts is clearly visible in my prose and scriptwriting. They all play off each other and bring something new to the process.

For me, the key is always learning and evolving. And for the record, I think ultimately this most recent part of the thread was more about "voice" and not technique. Not just the voice of the author, but the voice of the specific comic styles (east and west).

But like I said, 's all good. :D

Tallymark
05-20-2007, 03:57 AM
Like has been said, I think the point we've been making is that the way you structure a comic or manga script, format-wise, is the same. Of course the style, content, etc. will be different. I would also argue that the way you build a romance is the same as how you build a sci-fi novel: you have paragraphs, scenes, chapters, etc. We're really getting down to the functional details. What you do with the story is of course different, but we're not talking about that right now. ^_^

I also feel the need to point out that american comics does not equal superhero comics. There are a lot of other types of american comics, and superhero comics are merely a very popular subset. I personally don't really read superhero comics, and am instead a fan of vertigo series like The Sandman and Fables. These are very, very different. Both american comics and manga encompass a whole spectrum of different kinds of stories, which is why it's just silly to try and pick one of each and compare them. Of course Akira is a different beast than Superman. But what if you compared it to Sandman?

It's like, you can't take a look at a sitcom and say "American tv is about brief one-episode plots with little character development." Because if you watch a show like Lost, you'll find an insanely complex multi-season plot, and postive truckloads of character development.

Every tv show, and every comic series, is treated differently, because each one is inherently different. This is regardless of where it's produced. ^_^

Me, I went from Archie comics to manga to non-superhero western comics, so my tastes are just all over the spectrum. XD And I find that there's not really any true difference between them all, except for stylistic. And how you handle the style is up to you! No need to confine yourself to preconceptions of how a genre should be handled. That's how groundbreaking stuff like Sandman and Watchmen comes about.

Dancre
05-20-2007, 04:33 AM
As they say around these parts...

's all good.

In all honesty, I think that while the very basics of storytelling are the same regardless of your chosen field, to my mind, you can learn a great deal from working in other areas.

My scriptwriting was of great benefit to my prose work. My short story writing made my long-form work tighter. My visual-storytelling in comic scripts is clearly visible in my prose and scriptwriting. They all play off each other and bring something new to the process.

For me, the key is always learning and evolving. And for the record, I think ultimately this most recent part of the thread was more about "voice" and not technique. Not just the voice of the author, but the voice of the specific comic styles (east and west).

But like I said, 's all good. :D


I'm finding this myself. It's easier to understand the way to write a manga due to what I've learned about writing in novels. It's just the structure that I need to learn.

kim

Snitchcat
05-20-2007, 07:01 AM
I'm reading a book called Trinity Blood by Sunao Yoshida. It's the novel for the manga Trinity Blood.

Small disagreement:

I believe the books came out first, then the manga (now the anime).


Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Dancre
05-20-2007, 07:40 AM
Ahhh . . . I don't know. You need to ask Tokyopop who put out the books. I was just using it as an example. I have no idea what came first.

kim

Lyra Jean
05-20-2007, 10:57 AM
manga is the book version.
anime is the tv version.

From my experience as small as that is it seems the manga always comes out first. I've never heard it happening the other way around.

Sai
05-20-2007, 04:20 PM
From my experience as small as that is it seems the manga always comes out first. I've never heard it happening the other way around.

It does happen, but you're right in that the manga usually comes first. Sometimes, to cash in on an anime's popularity, they will make an anime to go with it. I believe the Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, and the Furi Kuri manga were all created after the anime became a hit.

chibeth
05-20-2007, 04:28 PM
On the other hand, implying that a horror author does something better than a fantasy author because the horror author is able to produce a certain reaction in me and the fantasy author is not is not at all illogical. It is merely a formulation of cause and effect. Assuming that my psychology is not totally diverse from all other people and that others have experienced the same phenomenon, the statement becomes objective.

And the same would be true on the other side of the equation as well. If a fantasy author is able to inspire a reaction that a horror author cannot, the fantasy author is doing something right.

But by no means do the two statements cancel each other out. The cause to the effect is the crux of my argument.

The emphasis above is mine. Because the horror author who is better able to produce a certain reaction in you might not produce that same reaction in another person reading the same book. Or maybe that reader doesn't care for the type of reaction the book is attempting to provoke. That same person may infinitely prefer the fantasy novel because of the reaction it produces in them. Thus it's subjective, and a matter of who prefers which style, not which style is "better" (because to the person who prefers fantasy, that style is better, while to the person who prefers horror, THAT style is). While you find the style of manga preferable, I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel that style too bloated and slow-paced.

In any case, your argument is still illogical because it assumes every horror novel will be able to produce that reaction in you while no fantasy novel will be able to. It is possible to compare a fantasy novel and a horror novel, but it's not possible to say every horror novel is better than every fantasy novel. Or that one genre is superior as a whole.

THAT is the point--that while you can say you prefer the style of Eastern comics vs. Western, you can't say manga as a whole is superior (unless, perhaps, you've read every single comic created in both East and West).

Dancre
05-20-2007, 10:16 PM
It does happen, but you're right in that the manga usually comes first. Sometimes, to cash in on an anime's popularity, they will make an anime to go with it. I believe the Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, and the Furi Kuri manga were all created after the anime became a hit.

Well, I saw the Anime of Trinity Blood on Cartoon Network back in Jan-March (?) Not sure of the exact dates - of this year, but I wasn't able to get the English translated version of TB novel until April when TP published it and sent it out. I'm not sure of the manga though. I know it's out and I think the novel and the manga were released the same time.

But the anime, novel and manga were released in Japan back in 2001 and on.

Right now, I am reading the novel version of TB. It's ok, written in Omni POV, which isn't my favi. It seems a bit amaturish, and uses amatured 'tricks' to to grab your attention, things that make Uncle Jim slap your hands and it's a bit 'telly'. But it's still good. It's written in the episode version. But I think this was Sunao's first book. He died before he was able to write anymore, but his friend took over and finished the series. We only have the vol 1 and 2 here in the states, the rest of the novels/ mangas will come out later this year and next year.

But actually, it's interesting in the way all of the different versions of TB were released here in the US. The anime was first, which brought up questions that were never answered in the anime, which made me buy the novel to answer those questions. Meanies!! So now I have to buy all 7 vol to answer the questions that were brought up by the anime, which never answered the questions that I wanted answered. Geesh!! Thanks, TP!!

Snitchcat
05-21-2007, 09:52 AM
manga is the book version.
anime is the tv version.

From my experience as small as that is it seems the manga always comes out first. I've never heard it happening the other way around.

Nope, the manga is Not the book version.

There are 3 formats for "Trinity Blood":

1) Novels
2) Manga
3) Anime

Generally, the novel(s) or manga comes first, then the anime. However, there are some incidences where it's reversed. Trying to think of an example. Mind is blanking. Anyone?

As for looking in TokyoPop. Heh. I don't anymore. It's not where I prefer to go for new releases -- I go to a manga centre. (^_^)

jedimaster107
05-21-2007, 04:43 PM
It does happen, but you're right in that the manga usually comes first. Sometimes, to cash in on an anime's popularity, they will make an anime to go with it. I believe the Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, and the Furi Kuri manga were all created after the anime became a hit.

Saiyuki from what i understand was being written as the anmie was coming out. that's why the anime is different then the manga. The anime had to come up with episodes until the mange could catch up. So everything dealing with Hemira never took place in the mangas.

i'm not sure about Reload. i love the manga but the anime sucks now that it has different voices and the animation is crap too.

Axler
05-21-2007, 05:52 PM
If I was writing manga (which I might) and the page count was say, 100, I'd pace the story accordingly.

If I were writing an issue of Superman, and the page count was say, 24, I'd pace the story accordingly.

Seems a pretty simple approach to me.

chibi-evil
05-23-2007, 08:23 PM
As someone who reads and writes (amatuer or not) in both american and manga styles, i will say this--there are some very very specific differences between writing the styles. It's not in the basics of storytelling. A good story will still be a good story in a different meduim--it just may have to change a bit to adapt to the particularities of that new meduim.


The way I see it, there are three really big differences that matter to a writer.

For one--and probably the most important one to a writer--is the pacing. Not the pacing of the story--but the panels per page. An american comic, pretty much universally, has an average of 6-9 panels per page, and can go as high as 12 or 15.

6-9 is the high-end of manga panels-per-page. Manga uses 2-6, and makes a much more extensive use of 1 panel pages.

Think about it. if you want to write a page-turner, you have to have something interesting that will make your reader want to turn the page every 2-6 panels, vs the 6-9 panels of the american comic.

Another, and less important, since not all american comics do this--is color. Manga is in black and white. Always. You can't use color symbolism. You can't make somebody stand out b/c they are wearing red. You can't show sombody going evil by changing the color of their costume. C'mon! You're all writers! Color is important--and more so in any visual medium. If you can't use it, you have to really make up for that by choosing your artist carefully, choosing the camera angles carefully, choosing the words and dialoge carefully.

Look at the scripts of the great american comic writers--every detail is written out--and they do concentrate on the color to communicate certian things. Red, especailly, focuses attention and makes things stand out. white looks pure, blue looks serene. Green looks a little exotic and natural at the same time. hell--think about the matrix movies. the "real" world was all shot in tinted green. it made the world look...not quite all there. Color is an important story-telling tool.

Manga doesn't have that. And this is as much of a problem for the writer as the artist. As a writer, you then have to deal with all the color of the world through the writing, or ignore it.

The third is in the stories told. Manga, plan and simple, just covers more genre space (thanks to the beloved osamu tezuka) then american comics presently do. There are manga for young kids, for boys and girls of all ages, for adults, for businessmen, for teens. sci-fi, fantasy, drama, romance, plotical drama, historical fiction, pornagraphy (for men and women!), action, sports-drama, comedy, romantic comedy, teen-angst--the list can go on. you name a genre, they've got something for it. the one thread that flows trough the genres is that manga, in whatever genre, tends to deal with the interactions of people with other people. they tend to be smaller stories (with VERY notable exceptions) told on a grand scale.

American comics tend to be in one of a few catagories--and most of those are "action" stories. There are indepentadent comics that go into comdey or drama, but they don't tend to be as many, or as varied in their audiances. I catogorize american comics into four catagories. superhero(duh.), real-world (ghost world and it's ilk), dystopia (transmet, JTHM), and Alternate Real-world (Fables, Buffy). American comics deal with settings--with worlds and the interaction of the characters to that world. these tend to be Epic stories, told in miniture. again, there are notable exceptions. but--even within those exceptions, (Sandman, Fables, i'm looking at you), there are Epic stories told--save the world, rescue the princess, ect.

American comics, however, are really good at telling short-stories. They tend to be more concise, and of course, you can use color for symbolism. the format of bigger pages and more panels allows for fewer pages to cover more material.

And don't forget! As a writer you are responsible for more than just the dialogue! You've got to be able to communcate the story to the artist in imagry. Especially in manga, which often uses pages and pages of art without words. Your job is still to tell that story even when you are invisible. That's bloody hard!

Anyway, that's my two cents. They really do require different approaches, but one id not inherently better than the other. There are stories that are better told in different formats--but that goes for most things. Try writing a fantasy story like you would a murder mystery--it comes out weird. Not necesarily bad, just....weird. Same with manga vs. American comics. look at the Tsunami line marvel tried to put out for examples. They tried to write american comics in manga style. Some of it is pretty horrific--and some of it just wasn't given enough time. a 24 page comic book, averaging 2-4 panels per page couldn't even get through a single fight scene, much less have any meaningful character development.

Manga can be done in serial--but those serials are chosen carefully. Those serials run--on the same story arc--for years, and the serials are not really expected to accomplish anything every month. Hell, even a single 160 page graphic novel can often be a single aspect of the story (a fight scene, a flashback). American comics go through story arcs much faster.

er. i'll stop now or i'll just start repeating things.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

wordmonkey
05-23-2007, 09:51 PM
Didn't we just leave this party?

As someone who reads and writes (amatuer or not) in both american and manga styles, i will say this--there are some very very specific differences between writing the styles. It's not in the basics of storytelling. A good story will still be a good story in a different meduim--it just may have to change a bit to adapt to the particularities of that new meduim.

So you concede then the technique is that same? Because ultimate that was the prior debate's crux.

The way I see it, there are three really big differences that matter to a writer.

Go ooooooooooon! (That is so much funnier when Jon Stewart does it on the Daily Show.)

For one--and probably the most important one to a writer--is the pacing. Not the pacing of the story--but the panels per page. An american comic, pretty much universally, has an average of 6-9 panels per page, and can go as high as 12 or 15.

6-9 is the high-end of manga panels-per-page. Manga uses 2-6, and makes a much more extensive use of 1 panel pages.

Think about it. if you want to write a page-turner, you have to have something interesting that will make your reader want to turn the page every 2-6 panels, vs the 6-9 panels of the american comic.

So what you are saying is there is no pacing changes in Manga? If we were listening to the audio-book version, it would be like listening to Stephen Hawkings digital-voice reading to us. You change panels-per-page to change that pacing and beats of a scene. If every page has the same panels your story plods along at the same pace. You USE panels, their size and position and shape to ADD to story, it's not a standard thing.

Another, and less important, since not all american comics do this--is color. Manga is in black and white. Always. You can't use color symbolism. You can't make somebody stand out b/c they are wearing red. You can't show sombody going evil by changing the color of their costume. C'mon! You're all writers! Color is important--and more so in any visual medium. If you can't use it, you have to really make up for that by choosing your artist carefully, choosing the camera angles carefully, choosing the words and dialoge carefully.

Look at the scripts of the great american comic writers--every detail is written out--and they do concentrate on the color to communicate certian things. Red, especailly, focuses attention and makes things stand out. white looks pure, blue looks serene. Green looks a little exotic and natural at the same time. hell--think about the matrix movies. the "real" world was all shot in tinted green. it made the world look...not quite all there. Color is an important story-telling tool.

Manga doesn't have that. And this is as much of a problem for the writer as the artist. As a writer, you then have to deal with all the color of the world through the writing, or ignore it.

OK, the color thing is a good point.

BUT...

Most folks who start out trying to break into comics, will go through the indies, and they more often than not, are black and white. So there really is no difference. And since we're talking the writing, (and presumably how to do it and how to then do it for money) then everything you say really doesn't apply. Because those same limits (dictated by an indie publisher's tight budget) apply to east or west.

The third is in the stories told. Manga, plan and simple, just covers more genre space (thanks to the beloved osamu tezuka) then american comics presently do. There are manga for young kids, for boys and girls of all ages, for adults, for businessmen, for teens. sci-fi, fantasy, drama, romance, plotical drama, historical fiction, pornagraphy (for men and women!), action, sports-drama, comedy, romantic comedy, teen-angst--the list can go on. you name a genre, they've got something for it. the one thread that flows trough the genres is that manga, in whatever genre, tends to deal with the interactions of people with other people. they tend to be smaller stories (with VERY notable exceptions) told on a grand scale.

Teen-angst is a genre? Would that make Smallville on TV a teen-angst show? Or because it's western and based on Superman, does that mean it's just superhero adventure? They have some pretty dramatic moments, but then they have some gags and little nods to the folks who know the mythos, what does all that do? Because by your rating system, there is no nuance in the Western stuff. You only get that in Eastern stuff.

American comics tend to be in one of a few catagories--and most of those are "action" stories. There are indepentadent comics that go into comdey or drama, but they don't tend to be as many, or as varied in their audiances. I catogorize american comics into four catagories. superhero(duh.), real-world (ghost world and it's ilk), dystopia (transmet, JTHM), and Alternate Real-world (Fables, Buffy). American comics deal with settings--with worlds and the interaction of the characters to that world. these tend to be Epic stories, told in miniture. again, there are notable exceptions. but--even within those exceptions, (Sandman, Fables, i'm looking at you), there are Epic stories told--save the world, rescue the princess, ect.

This is complete crap. You go wild on your Eastern genres and sub-genres and stay locked in broad-stroke genres for Western. If you wanna argue, at least do it fairly. If you are looking at the Big 2, then yeah, the majority of their stuff IS superhero, adventure, and the like. But the Western "school" is so much more than DC and Marvel. Even those two are looking at buying into the indie scene. And the indie scene has EVERYTHING. But just in case, since we are going all broad on the western front, you will find an even broader spectrum of "genres" in the newspaper "funnies." And lets not get locked into JUST the US publishers... what about Europe? Sure, they follow on the supers market somewhat, but then doesn't Korean comics follow the Japanese? And I think it's a touch silly to group DC and Marvel in with Moebius, Hergé and Asterix.

American comics, however, are really good at telling short-stories. They tend to be more concise, and of course, you can use color for symbolism. the format of bigger pages and more panels allows for fewer pages to cover more material.

Never read FROM HELL, then? Black and white too. And not because of budget either.

And don't forget! As a writer you are responsible for more than just the dialogue! You've got to be able to communcate the story to the artist in imagry. Especially in manga, which often uses pages and pages of art without words. Your job is still to tell that story even when you are invisible. That's bloody hard!

Yeah, 'cos you don't
...communcate the story to the artist in imagry...
with western comics, do you? :Shrug:

Anyway, that's my two cents. They really do require different approaches, but one id not inherently better than the other. There are stories that are better told in different formats--but that goes for most things. Try writing a fantasy story like you would a murder mystery--it comes out weird. Not necesarily bad, just....weird. Same with manga vs. American comics. look at the Tsunami line marvel tried to put out for examples. They tried to write american comics in manga style. Some of it is pretty horrific--and some of it just wasn't given enough time. a 24 page comic book, averaging 2-4 panels per page couldn't even get through a single fight scene, much less have any meaningful character development.

Do we really need to address this again? It's called pacing for a reason.

Manga can be done in serial--but those serials are chosen carefully. Those serials run--on the same story arc--for years, and the serials are not really expected to accomplish anything every month. Hell, even a single 160 page graphic novel can often be a single aspect of the story (a fight scene, a flashback). American comics go through story arcs much faster.

SOME do. SOME don't. But nothing happening is NOT a genre. Nor is it especially compelling to read. But then Manga isn't about the writing. It's about the art. So if you buy a picture book, you want lots of nice pictures. If you're reading a book that is supposed to have narrative drive, drama, humor, suspense, etc. you really wanna hope the writer knows how to tell a story and not just make pretty pictures.

er. i'll stop now or i'll just start repeating things.

Too late! :D

Lyra Jean
05-23-2007, 10:08 PM
Nope, the manga is Not the book version.

There are 3 formats for "Trinity Blood":

1) Novels
2) Manga
3) Anime

Generally, the novel(s) or manga comes first, then the anime. However, there are some incidences where it's reversed. Trying to think of an example. Mind is blanking. Anyone?

As for looking in TokyoPop. Heh. I don't anymore. It's not where I prefer to go for new releases -- I go to a manga centre. (^_^)

A manga is a book. So if it's not the book version what is it?
Novel = Book
Manga = Comic
Anime = Cartoon
??

Dancre
05-24-2007, 03:10 AM
Actually, we were talking about writing the script for a manga. Of course there are differences, but you use the same basic writing tech that you use in novels, i.e. advancing the story, creating sympathetic characters, pacing, strong dialogue, etc. In fact, Uncle Jim's thread has LOTS of good, juicy writing tech that if the manga/comic writer were wise, would incorporate them in their writing. I was over at TokyoPop and again, I ran into ANOTHER writer who feels that learning writing tech is a waste of time. sigh . . . whatever. I figure, less competition for the rest of us.

Also you use the same basic comic/manga tech, but then after that, the two split apart, imo.

kim


As someone who reads and writes (amatuer or not) in both american and manga styles, i will say this--there are some very very specific differences between writing the styles. It's not in the basics of storytelling. A good story will still be a good story in a different meduim--it just may have to change a bit to adapt to the particularities of that new meduim.


The way I see it, there are three really big differences that matter to a writer.

For one--and probably the most important one to a writer--is the pacing. Not the pacing of the story--but the panels per page. An american comic, pretty much universally, has an average of 6-9 panels per page, and can go as high as 12 or 15.

6-9 is the high-end of manga panels-per-page. Manga uses 2-6, and makes a much more extensive use of 1 panel pages.

Think about it. if you want to write a page-turner, you have to have something interesting that will make your reader want to turn the page every 2-6 panels, vs the 6-9 panels of the american comic.

Another, and less important, since not all american comics do this--is color. Manga is in black and white. Always. You can't use color symbolism. You can't make somebody stand out b/c they are wearing red. You can't show sombody going evil by changing the color of their costume. C'mon! You're all writers! Color is important--and more so in any visual medium. If you can't use it, you have to really make up for that by choosing your artist carefully, choosing the camera angles carefully, choosing the words and dialoge carefully.

Look at the scripts of the great american comic writers--every detail is written out--and they do concentrate on the color to communicate certian things. Red, especailly, focuses attention and makes things stand out. white looks pure, blue looks serene. Green looks a little exotic and natural at the same time. hell--think about the matrix movies. the "real" world was all shot in tinted green. it made the world look...not quite all there. Color is an important story-telling tool.

Manga doesn't have that. And this is as much of a problem for the writer as the artist. As a writer, you then have to deal with all the color of the world through the writing, or ignore it.

Well, to me, this where the writing tech come in. I don't ever use color in my stories, ever. Instead I use action and dialogue to convey who my character is, and thank God there are manga writers out there who refuse to study the craft. Less competition. :)

The third is in the stories told. Manga, plan and simple, just covers more genre space (thanks to the beloved osamu tezuka) then american comics presently do. There are manga for young kids, for boys and girls of all ages, for adults, for businessmen, for teens. sci-fi, fantasy, drama, romance, plotical drama, historical fiction, pornagraphy (for men and women!), action, sports-drama, comedy, romantic comedy, teen-angst--the list can go on. you name a genre, they've got something for it. the one thread that flows trough the genres is that manga, in whatever genre, tends to deal with the interactions of people with other people. they tend to be smaller stories (with VERY notable exceptions) told on a grand scale.


merican comics tend to be in one of a few catagories--and most of those are "action" stories. There are indepentadent comics that go into comdey or drama, but they don't tend to be as many, or as varied in their audiances. I catogorize american comics into four catagories. superhero(duh.), real-world (ghost world and it's ilk), dystopia (transmet, JTHM), and Alternate Real-world (Fables, Buffy). American comics deal with settings--with worlds and the interaction of the characters to that world. these tend to be Epic stories, told in miniture. again, there are notable exceptions. but--even within those exceptions, (Sandman, Fables, i'm looking at you), there are Epic stories told--save the world, rescue the princess, ect.

American comics, however, are really good at telling short-stories. They tend to be more concise, and of course, you can use color for symbolism. the format of bigger pages and more panels allows for fewer pages to cover more material.

And don't forget! As a writer you are responsible for more than just the dialogue! You've got to be able to communcate the story to the artist in imagry. Especially in manga, which often uses pages and pages of art without words. Your job is still to tell that story even when you are invisible. That's bloody hard!

Again, imo, this is where the writing tech come into play.

Anyway, that's my two cents. They really do require different approaches, but one id not inherently better than the other. There are stories that are better told in different formats--but that goes for most things. Try writing a fantasy story like you would a murder mystery--it comes out weird. Not necesarily bad, just....weird. Same with manga vs. American comics. look at the Tsunami line marvel tried to put out for examples. They tried to write american comics in manga style. Some of it is pretty horrific--and some of it just wasn't given enough time. a 24 page comic book, averaging 2-4 panels per page couldn't even get through a single fight scene, much less have any meaningful character development.

Manga can be done in serial--but those serials are chosen carefully. Those serials run--on the same story arc--for years, and the serials are not really expected to accomplish anything every month. Hell, even a single 160 page graphic novel can often be a single aspect of the story (a fight scene, a flashback). American comics go through story arcs much faster.

er. i'll stop now or i'll just start repeating things.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Dancre
05-24-2007, 03:15 AM
You have a written book that reads like a written novel, then you have the manga which is like a comic book, then the anime which is a cartoon.

Three versions.


A manga is a book. So if it's not the book version what is it?
Novel = Book
Manga = Comic
Anime = Cartoon
??

chibi-evil
05-24-2007, 08:31 PM
So you concede then the technique is that same? Because ultimate that was the prior debate's crux.

If I'd conceded a point, I would have conceded it. I made a point. Since I have not posted yet in this forum on either side of the issue, I cannot have conceded the issue. Yes. The techniques are the same. Good writing is good writing.

Go ooooooooooon! (That is so much funnier when Jon Stewart does it on the Daily Show.)

At least I was polite. Please, do me the same courtesy in the future.



So what you are saying is there is no pacing changes in Manga? If we were listening to the audio-book version, it would be like listening to Stephen Hawkings digital-voice reading to us. You change panels-per-page to change that pacing and beats of a scene. If every page has the same panels your story plods along at the same pace. You USE panels, their size and position and shape to ADD to story, it's not a standard thing.

No. I most certainly did not. Please read my post. I said that there is an average amount of panels per page. and that that average is smaller than that in a typical american comic. The whole point I was making was that the biggest difference in writing manga vs. western-style comics is that the pacing is different BECAUSE of the panels-per-page. Because I know that you use panels to tell the story. As a writer you can choose to either dictate to your artist what panels go where and what size they are--or you can leave it to them. It will change what kind of control you have over the pacing of your story either way.



OK, the color thing is a good point.

BUT...

Most folks who start out trying to break into comics, will go through the indies, and they more often than not, are black and white. So there really is no difference. And since we're talking the writing, (and presumably how to do it and how to then do it for money) then everything you say really doesn't apply. Because those same limits (dictated by an indie publisher's tight budget) apply to east or west.

You are correct. Which is why I said it wasn't as important a consideration. But manga, reguardless of the budget is NEVER in color. If the budget is high, there might be color inserts--but the magority of the story is in black and white.

I am currently working on an independant publishing venture with a series of short stories, in western style, with western pacing--and it is in black and white--for budget reasons. When I first wrote the story, it was supposed to be in color. When we had to switch to black and white--I re-wrote some of the imagry that I wanted used.



Teen-angst is a genre? Would that make Smallville on TV a teen-angst show? Or because it's western and based on Superman, does that mean it's just superhero adventure? They have some pretty dramatic moments, but then they have some gags and little nods to the folks who know the mythos, what does all that do? Because by your rating system, there is no nuance in the Western stuff. You only get that in Eastern stuff.

Ok, perhaps I should clarify. I am a fan of both western and eastern comics. I never said that the eastern stories are better then the western stories--and i actually believe that the western comics, for all their short-comings (which is not a post for this forum) are actually better at telling the kind of stories I like to read. I am very picky about the manga I read. I NEED the writing to be as good or better than the art. And western comics, without a doubt, does this better. Teen-angst is a genre. Think of the movies like "A Walk to Remeber." Or those idiotic car-crash stories that are ONLY ever found in the young adult section. Those are teen-angst. Western comics doesn't do alot of them, and THANK GOD. They are terrible.



This is complete crap. You go wild on your Eastern genres and sub-genres and stay locked in broad-stroke genres for Western. If you wanna argue, at least do it fairly. If you are looking at the Big 2, then yeah, the majority of their stuff IS superhero, adventure, and the like. But the Western "school" is so much more than DC and Marvel. Even those two are looking at buying into the indie scene. And the indie scene has EVERYTHING. But just in case, since we are going all broad on the western front, you will find an even broader spectrum of "genres" in the newspaper "funnies." And lets not get locked into JUST the US publishers... what about Europe? Sure, they follow on the supers market somewhat, but then doesn't Korean comics follow the Japanese? And I think it's a touch silly to group DC and Marvel in with Moebius, Hergé and Asterix.

Again, please be polite in the future. And please refrain from assuming things about me. I said "Action" not adventure. and I know that there are stuff that aren't in that catagory--it's just most of it. Outliers are not part of "most." We DON"T have the kind of range of genre that japan has because we don't have the kind of market japan has.

But none of that was actually my point. My point was in the KIND of stories told. Western comics, with our background in Epic-poetry and stories--often uses epic storytelling ideals. Eastern comics TEND to be about smaller, more personal stories--since their storytelling tradition is lass about saving the world, and more about personal enlightenment. Forget about the genres, thats a bloody marketing tool to make it easier for people to find the stories they want to read.


Never read FROM HELL, then? Black and white too. And not because of budget either.

I have, actually. And I think it illustrates my point about color pretty damn well. Do you think that was a decsision made by the artist? No. that was a writer's decsision, for the purposes of the story. Color is important. And in Western Comics, it had a pretty big statement to say about the story--whereas in Japan that message would be completely lost since all of their comics are in black and white.



Yeah, 'cos you don't
ok, what the hell? Again, politeness. What is it exactly that you think a writer does for a comic? just write dialoge with no context? Do you think a story is just the narration and the dialogue? I don't know what kind of stories you write, but I write stories with imagery, and with sound and with things that need to be communicated, in comics, through somebody else's art. Which means--I need to be detailed and precise and and tell my artist as much as possible about the story so that when my words are not phsycally present, the story goes on. Have you seen the scripts that alan moore writes?

with western comics, do you? :Shrug:
Again. Look at some scripts from Alan Moore. EVERYTHING on that page is dictated by him, down to the placement of objects on the table, and the color of the character's shoes. So, yes. I would say that you do.



Do we really need to address this again? It's called pacing for a reason.

Well, yes. Since I was making a point about how manga pacing doesn't work for the western superhero comics formula--I thought it would not detract anything. Pacing, if you'll recall, was one of the things that is quite different between the eastern and western comic styles.



SOME do. SOME don't. But nothing happening is NOT a genre. Nor is it especially compelling to read. But then Manga isn't about the writing. It's about the art. So if you buy a picture book, you want lots of nice pictures. If you're reading a book that is supposed to have narrative drive, drama, humor, suspense, etc. you really wanna hope the writer knows how to tell a story and not just make pretty pictures.

Manga, like Western Comics is as much about the writing as it is the art. If the story sucks, but the art is good, and i won't name names--the book just doesn't sell. Which, is what it all really comes down to. And to illustrate my original point, which is that manga tends to allow it's stories to spread out, without the drive for story-arc completion that drives MUCH of the western comics market. Indy comics, i will concede, do often follow what i would consider eastern tropes--but y'know what? more often then not, those indy artists were influenced by the eastern comics.

Too late! :D

I will never again appologize for, or try to make a small quip at the end of a post. I do try to not invite rude responces.

Axler
05-24-2007, 09:00 PM
I've been reading manga over the last week or so, looking for that vast divide between that form and "western" comics.

Er...what divide there is can be spanned pretty easily. So, I don't understand all this hub-bub....

bub.

AzBobby
05-24-2007, 10:45 PM
So what you are saying is there is no pacing changes in Manga? If we were listening to the audio-book version, it would be like listening to Stephen Hawkings digital-voice reading to us. You change panels-per-page to change that pacing and beats of a scene. If every page has the same panels your story plods along at the same pace. You USE panels, their size and position and shape to ADD to story, it's not a standard thing.

This is all true. But the point is also well taken that manga can have fewer panels per page on average simply because of standard page size (not because they never vary amongst themselves).

Does this mean also that the convention of scene breaks and page-turning moments is adjusted to a different metric? I guess it might if, as far as I can grasp, one were creating a good Western-style comic in manga format.

As I work on my own GN WIP, I have a general story and a series of scenes in my head, but the panels per page do influence my pacing in the layouts. Cuz I can't resist getting page-turning moments (maybe not all of them cliff hangers, but peaks of interest at minimum) to occur in the bottom right corners of all the odd-numbered pages, along with surprises and scene transitions occurring more frequently in the upper-left corners of even numbered pages. The convention doesn't feel forced, because frankly it's fun to compose it that way, like working on a puzzle. But it really does steer the pace. And this helps "westernize" my comic too, according to some of the common distinctions -- a little on the high-concept formulaic side, not a whole lot of slow spells (e.g. a bit of "quiet time" for characters to have a conversation within one setting doesn't tend to stretch past a page). I don't guess comic writers are limited by these conventions, not in the least, but like I said these techniques agree with me and give me a handy framework I can be confident in applying.

So given my personal style I have to admit writing a manga would bug me some. The general impact of layout and pacing would be different enough for me to find myself in unfamiliar territory even in the mere writing stages.

I know manga may have positively influenced Western comix in recent decades when it comes to allowing a stop for breath now and then, even in a superhero story. I'm thinking of the occasional Hellboy spreads where two or more pages go by that mostly consist of quiet scene setting, conversation, or in one case, even having the hero sit still resting his feet in a lake panel after panel, just waiting for his mind to clear of its troubles. In exchange, I suspect Western comix have influenced much of the Japanese product with the kind of material modeled for the MTV attention span. A variety of styles are to be found on both sides of the water. So as others have mentioned, I haven't spotted a very large difference between the two comic cultures (beyond the obvious layout/print difference) when reading some of the examples that have been marketed to my American kids (Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, etc.).

wordmonkey
05-25-2007, 12:21 AM
I've been reading manga over the last week or so, looking for that vast divide between that form and "western" comics.

Er...what divide there is can be spanned pretty easily. So, I don't understand all this hub-bub....

bub.

Bub:

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make. EVERYTHING you know and include in your book is applicable to east or west. As far as the writing is concerned.

wordmonkey
05-25-2007, 12:44 AM
Chibi-evil:

After I'd finished replying to you, I was thinking to myself, maybe I was a little snippy there, but frankly, dude, you got all huffy when I was being silly, let alone when I was being snippy.

And if you think THAT was rude, I commend you on living a life of sheltered peace an purity. You REALLY wanna stay out of TIO.

You request respect. OK, in fairness I did jump all over you on one of your first posts to the group, so for that, you have my unconditional and public apology.

Now show a little respect yourself and read the stuff that went before, because it addresses a good deal of this stuff, hence my comment that we had just left this party. You could also stand to read with a little more keen-ness, since the smiley and the associated comments made it very clear that some of my comments were either joking, or sarcastic (probably more of the later than the former). You could also, and I offer this ONLY as a friendly suggestion, maybe seek out a copy of "The Journey West." It's kinda epic and eastern.

This has been danced enough for my liking. If you wanna dispute it further, go ahead. But I'm starting to think (with a few exceptions here) that I'm gonna add manga to politics and religion. Subjects you don't wanna discuss because there tends to be a massive ideological blindness vibe that reason can't penetrate.

I wish you the best of luck writing your east AND west comics and you should let us all know when they are available so we can buy copies. There is also the new SYW for comic scripts that you might find of use.

Azure Skye
05-25-2007, 03:29 AM
Here are some sites that might be helpful to someone.
Creator of Steady Beat (Tokyopop). Search her archives because sometimes she'll post about the writing/drawing aspect of creating a manga.
http://lilrivkah.livejournal.com/

Publisher but their blog has some interesting information. Again, check archives.
http://www.gocomi.com/

Dancre
05-25-2007, 04:35 AM
Is this what you mean?:

http://lilrivkah.livejournal.com/168859.html

http://lilrivkah.livejournal.com/169915.html

Snitchcat
05-25-2007, 06:43 AM
You could also, and I offer this ONLY as a friendly suggestion, maybe seek out a copy of "The Journey West." It's kinda epic and eastern.

I've seen this title come up several times now and it's beginning to annoy me that it's incorrect. LOL.

Correct title:
"Journey to the West".

It's Oriental. It's an epic. It's part legend, part history. It's also a good read -- especially if you read the written account first, then the manga. And there are two versions of this: the Chinese one, and the Japanese one.

Both are similar, and both are very different. I would suggest reading both; the viewpoints are interesting.

(^_^)

Azure Skye
05-25-2007, 05:40 PM
Is this what you mean?:

http://lilrivkah.livejournal.com/168859.html

http://lilrivkah.livejournal.com/169915.html

That's it. I was in a hurry last night and didn't have time to search for those. Good job.

wordmonkey
05-25-2007, 06:27 PM
I've seen this title come up several times now and it's beginning to annoy me that it's incorrect. LOL.

Correct title:
"Journey to the West".

(^_^)

I stand corrected, Snitchcat. You are of course, correct.

Though in my defense, since the root of the epic is all about buddhism, I'm confident that buddha wouldn't mind my flub. In fact he'd probably be laughing at this whole thread. If he was cool with "The Great Sage Equal of All Heaven," my brain-farts, I think he'd let slide. :D

Dancre
05-26-2007, 03:13 AM
That's it. I was in a hurry last night and didn't have time to search for those. Good job.


I actually came across them on tokyopop's board. I love how she goes into detail regarding the panels. She answered all my questions and then I had a Ah,Ha! Thing. It finally came together. Once I get my novel done, I'm going to turn it into manga and post it under the SYW, comics section.

kim