Publish America vs Lulu?

[facsmth]

I know I was given a recommendation for Lulu here, but I'm not sure what difference there is between this company and PA business wise.

I can see Lulu has a great website for allowing people to do much of the work online by customizing their stuff presentation wise. But then again, Lulu charges for ISBNS?

Do book stores like Lulu books more than they like PA books?

What other differences are there?

My mom wants me to sign with Publish America....

[DaveKuzminski]

My mom wants me to sign with Publish America....

Why does your mom hate you? ;)

You and your mother are looking at this wrong. Consider these facts.

When your book is published, it will be up to you to get it sold. Neither PA nor Lulu will get it into bookstores located in your city or any other. They'll only get it listed with the normal distributors who will make it available to the ONLINE stores.

When your book sells copies, Lulu actually pays the royalties that are due. It's been proven that PA often does not.

When you buy copies to resell, though why you'd want to be a reseller is questionable, the cost to you will be considerably less. As the author you'll receive the same discount from Lulu every time, but not with PA. Furthermore, with PA you'll have to make large bulk purchases in order to get a decent discount.

It's these costs and the aggravation that PA dishes out later that will make you realize only too late if you sign with PA that you made a poor choice. Remember, publishing is the holy grail of writing. Choose wisely.

[Popeyesays]

Bookstores don't like either, but given the choice, they HATE PA's non-returnability and token discounts. At Lulu you set your own price, but the cost is high enough still to make any discount you can offer bookstores not up to what they are accusomed to.

In the U.S. ISBN's cost money, in Canada they do not.

If time is a real constraint, have you considered e-publishing? This can happen much quicker than print publication since there is no paper involved. Many e-pubs offer books in print as well.

Have your mother read what is said about PA and see if she STILL thinks you should publisher there. It's a dead end, no one will ever find your book to buy it. The book you showed on the other thread is the most expensive printing style at Lulu, since it is hard cover and slip-cased, the cost of a standard paper tradeback would be much less.

If all you want is the book ON paper for distribution to family and friends, you can elect to do it on Lulu and NOT pay for an ISBN. Just don't put it up for public sale. Many writers use Lulu to knock off a few Advance Review Copies. You can let family and friends buy the book through you and give it to them for little or no mark-up.

SERIOUSLY: Check out e-publication, timewise it may be your best bet and give your book a real chance to sell to the public you can't get from PA or self-publication.

http://www.hipiers.com/publishing.html

For a good review of electronic publishing.

Regards,
Scott

[facsmth]

Why does your mom hate you? ;)



*laughs mildly*


When your book is published, it will be up to you to get it sold. Neither PA nor Lulu will get it into bookstores located in your city or any other. They'll only get it listed with the normal distributors who will make it available to the ONLINE stores.

Like Amazon? I like Amazon.

So I'll have to make up business cards or something to advertise the books?


When your book sells copies, Lulu actually pays the royalties that are due. It's been proven that PA often does not.

They don't seem to mention a percentage as far as I've read, but they do allow me to state a "revenue" or whatever that was.

When you buy copies to resell, though why you'd want to be a reseller is questionable, the cost to you will be considerably less. As the author you'll receive the same discount from Lulu every time, but not with PA. Furthermore, with PA you'll have to make large bulk purchases in order to get a decent discount.

I'll see if my a public hang out I go to (I know the employees and exec. producer very well) would be interested in selling copies.


It's these costs and the aggravation that PA dishes out later that will make you realize only too late if you sign with PA that you made a poor choice. Remember, publishing is the holy grail of writing. Choose wisely.

Well, other than the contract which says PA gets the exlusive rights to paper copies of my work AND the rumors here that they print only expensive paperback copies... Yet they do seem to provide an ISBN for the book.

The only bad part of Lulu I've seen is that they charge for ISBNS.

[DaveKuzminski]

...the rumors here that they print only expensive paperback copies...

You can check out those rumors quite easily to verify that they're not just rumors, but the truth. Go visit Amazon.com. Look up a PA book. Make note of the page count and price. Now find a similar book from another publisher. Compare their page count and price with that of the PA book.

Repeat until convinced.

[veinglory]

Both Lulu and PA have the trouble self-publishers have. The books will be vey expensive, they will not be stocked by bookstores.

The difference is PA will pretend they are not a self-publisher, pressure you to buy bulk quanitities of your own books and possibly ban you from their forums and threaten you with law suits if you don't toe the line.

If you are going to self-publish, use Lulu or one of the other honest service providers.

[VGrossack]

Also, PA will tie up your rights for 7 years (if their contract holds). I believe with Lulu the rights remain with the author, don't they?

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

You can check out those rumors quite easily to verify that they're not just rumors, but the truth. Go visit Amazon.com. Look up a PA book. Make note of the page count and price. Now find a similar book from another publisher. Compare their page count and price with that of the PA book.

Repeat until convinced.

I'll offer this random PA book for monetary discection...

Evil's Own Trinity (http://www.amazon.com/Evils-Own-Trinity-Dee-Robbins/dp/1413729533/ref=pd_ecc_rvi_1/102-5223257-0702561) by Robbins

And for comparison...

Children of Hurin (http://www.amazon.com/Children-Hurin-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/0618894640/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5223257-0702561?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177861255&sr=1-1) by Tolkien

Don't forget that, as part of your contract with PA, you have to register your own copyright - $45 now, I believe.

As Dave said, repeat until convinced.

[abemorgantis]

I'd go with Lulu. I had a GREAT experience with Xlibris but it's $$$.

[LloydBrown]

I actually have a side-by-side comparison between PA & Lulu. Let me look...here.

Some Publish America supporters have claimed that PA is a good choice for them because they get two free books without having to spend any money. It is true that they aren’t required to spend any money, but over 90% of them buy at least a few copies of their book. Most of them buy the majority of the books they sell.

With this in mind, let’s compare Publish America with a self-publishing company, Lulu.com.

Copyright
PA: You must register the copyright at your own time and expense. The fee is $45, but you also provide a copy of your manuscript and pay shipping costs on that manuscript delivery.
Lulu: Register or not, it’s up to you. Your work is copyrighted the moment you write it in the United States and most other countries. If you want to register it, you can register it up to 60 days after publication (in the US).

Cover Design
PA: PA uses clip art from a fee-based library. They have used the same images on up to five different book covers. Unlike publishers who expect to sell books to the public, PA doesn’t pay professional artists to create specific images based on the manuscript.
Lulu: The author provides a cover image. It can be clip art, the writer’s own design, or a professional image costing thousands of dollars. Thousands of artists are available with a simple Internet search who will allow use of an existing image in exchange for the publicity. I’ve done it myself using Google Image search.

Changes after Publication
PA: PA typically refuses to make amendments to the text. On rare occasions, they have released revisions or second editions, but the decision is exclusively theirs.
Lulu: The author is able to release a second edition or a revision, add chapters, break the book into two volumes or anything else at any time.

Publisher Sales
PA: The average PA book sells about 75 copies, and the record-holder is an unsubstantiated claim of 5,200 copies. Over a thousand titles—about one title in 12—have not sold a single copy. You have to sell your book because PA doesn’t know how.
Of these copies sold, the author has personally bought an average of 40-50 copies, leaving PA selling about 30 copies through all of those websites it advertises, including Amazon.com. That figure also includes orders placed directly with PA and sold through bookstore distribution. Of those, many customers went to the website or Amazon.com because they met the author at a book signing or by chance in public. If the author hadn’t met them personally, those people would never have seen the book.
Lulu: Lulu’s sales figures are not available for public comparison. Also, they could be misleading because many people use their services for specific purposes, like printing 15 copies of a company operations manual, or 8 copies of a family history or a 30 copies of a public domain book for classroom use. Not all books published through Lulu are intended for commercial sales.
However, sales for self-published titles are fairly well known. They range from tens of copies of poetry or memoirs to thousands of copies of non-fiction works sold by authors with a solid platform.

Complimentary Copies
PA: Usually two.
Lulu: None.

Publisher Promotion
PA: PA does not have a publicist, bookstore distribution, or regular accounts direct to retailers. Amazon.com automatically lists information available on books when they are assigned an ISBN, and hundreds of other websites follow suit. However, as we’ve seen, the total cumulative effect of all of these hundreds of listings is an average of 30-40 books over the lifetime of the book. PA does not charge for this listing service.
Lulu: Lulu offers the same service for as part of its global distribution package for $99.95, which also includes the ISBN. If you intend to make your sales by direct customer contact such as at speaking engagements or through your own physical storefront, you don’t need an ISBN.

Bookstore Distribution
PA: PA does not have bookstore distribution. Furthermore, their low discount and PA’s lack of sales support makes it difficult for bookstores to order from them. If you want a book in a store, you have to arrange it yourself.
Lulu: Lulu does not have bookstore distribution. However, at least they don’t make it any harder on you than it already is.

Pricing
PA: PA sets the price, which averages 25% to 50% more than commercially published books with the same page count.
Lulu: You set the price. Lulu takes 20% of the gross profit. Thus, if your book costs $8.00 to print and you sell it for $20, you make $9.60 for each sale through Lulu and Lulu makes $2.40. However, for each sale you make yourself from stock on hand, you make $12.00. You’re perfectly welcome to price your books to be competitive on the marketplace.
If you just want the book “out there” and don’t expect to make any money, you’ll find that Lulu’s heart is also filled with agape. If you choose to sell the book for cost and seek no profit, they waive their 20% as well.

Exclusivity
PA: Exclusive publishing rights for 7 years. Some contracts include electronic publishing rights, also.
Lulu: Non-exclusive contract. You’re free to take your electronic sales elsewhere or even use other print publishing outlets at the same time. If you want to use Lulu to print individual review copies as needed of a book you published elsewhere, go ahead.

ISBN
PA: PA provides an ISBN at no charge
Lulu: You can provide your own (currently $225 for 10 from Bowker’s), buy a single ISBN for $149, or buy their global distribution package, which includes the ISBN among other things for $99.95.

Advance against Royalties
PA: An advance is the amount that the publisher thinks the author will earn in the first print run. Publish America is so confident in your book that they give you one dollar, clearly expecting the book to sell a whole copy all by itself. Commercial publishers have to work hard to earn back that advance that they pay the author. How hard do you think Publish America works in order to earn back that dollar?
Lulu: Lulu is not a publisher. They’re a printer. They don’t pay an advance.

Royalties Payment
PA: PA pays authors twice per year, often holding back royalties due under the claim that their customers have not yet paid for books on terms (such as “payment due within 30 days”). However, they print their books when they’re ordered. They never make books without receiving the money first. The “payment due within 30 days” story is a lie. Many authors have documentation for books ordered for which no royalties have been paid.
Lulu: Lulu pays royalties quarterly.

Accounting Transparency
PA: PA claims to allow authors to audit their books. However, they deny the author’s right to bring an accountant. Because an accountant is a professional bound by the restrictions of client confidentiality, they have no legal ground to stand on in denying this request.
Lulu: You can view Lulu sales at any time. They understand what accountants are for. At the time of this writing, no public complaints about Lulu denying royalty payments are on record.

Ending the Contract
PA: Authors wishing to be released from their contract might or might not be released. There seems to be no consistency among those released, by genre, sales history, geographical location, or anything that can be determined. Furthermore, PA seems to randomly end contracts on its own, again with no detectable pattern.
Lulu: You can cancel your account with Lulu at any time. Your request becomes effective within 30 days. No argument. No denial. No “tone letters”.

Integrity
PA: Many authors have claimed that PA has underreported sales and shorted royalties. Some authors who have had their rights returned have claimed to be denied royalties because “they’re no longer under contract.”
Publish America also published Prevent Cancer Today, a book composed entirely of material copied and pasted from websites.
Publish America has called local police and sent them to an author’s house over perfectly legitimate e-mails he sent them during the course of his business relationship. Using police to harass someone is illegal.
Lulu: Many small press publishers use Lulu for their printing.

Legal Action
PA: The Encyclopedia Britannica sued Publish America over the use of the name Publish Britannica. PA subsequently ceased operations in both Britain and Iceland.
Former PA author Phil Dolan successfully won an arbitration hearing against Publish America for failing to abide by the terms of its contract.
Other legal actions are in progress which cannot be disclosed at this time.
Lulu: No legal actions known.

Per-book Cost Comparison
Assumptions: 200 pages, 6 x 9 black & white trade paperback.

A random sampling of PA books shows that their most common price is $19.95. This price is also very near the mathematical mean for their prices, so it’s a good figure to use for mean, mode, and median. We’ll use this as our baseline price for a PA book in our comparison.

Copies Bought PA price Total Lulu price Total Savings w/Lulu
10 $9.98 $99.80 $8.54 $85.40 $14.40
20 $9.98 $199.60 $8.54 $170.80 $28.80
30 $9.98 $299.40 $8.16 $244.80 $54.60
40 $9.98 $399.20 $7.68 $307.20 $92.00
45 $9.98 $449.10 $7.52 $338.40 $110.70
50 $9.98 $499.00 $7.39 $369.50 $129.50

Note that this table assumes a 50% discount for author purchases from PA. That’s actually a best-case offering. Their normal discount is 40%, with occasional “specials” that they offer you several times a year where you can get 45%. If you read news of a lawsuit or arbitration hearing against PA, you can bet that you’ll get one of those special offer e-mails soon. It happens every time.

Back to the table.

Accounting for Lulu’s global distribution package, after which your book will have the same website presence that PA has, the same availability to bookstores, your financial break-even is about 45 books.

With either publishing option, you’ll sell most of your books yourself. Thus, you’ll make most of your money by buying books for resale.

Other Factors
Publishing with Publish America includes non-monetary costs, as well. The largest of these factors is the publishing rights. The author signs over publication rights to PA for 7 years in their standard contract.

Also, several Publish America authors have reported that the PA staff has added typographical and grammatical errors to their books. They do this by allowing errors to creep into their spell-check application and running the file through the spell-check. That’s their idea of “editing.” Lulu prints directly from the file you send them.

Both companies have message boards. PA’s message boards are frequented by writers whose sole experience comes primarily from Publish America. Lulu’s message boards are frequented by small-press publishers, self-publishers, and Lulu staff. PA’s administrators frequently delete discussions and ban users for asking questions like “Why didn’t I get paid the royalties you owe me?” and “my contract says x, when in fact y happened.” Lulu’s message boards are for professional discussion on a variety of related topics, with moderation to prevent personal attacks, spamming, and other Internet hazards. Complaints stay in place, where the Lulu staff is able to address them with confidence that the readers will be able to make an informed decision regarding the outcome.

Publish America takes months or years to publish your book, despite the “within one year” clause in their standard contract. You can publish a book with Lulu in a couple of hours. You can do it today if you like. If you need to make changes to the manuscript, or learn how to do some things, it might take a day or two.

Which is worth more—making $500 on sales now, or making $500 in sales next year? You can visit the net present value calculator at http://www.investopedia.com/calculator/NetPresentValue.aspx if you want a serious answer, but I think we can all agree that money now is worth more than money later.

Finally, Lulu is not the only POD option available. It’s simply the easiest to use and probably the best-known. Others might be cheaper.

In short, people who say that PA was the best printing option for their book either
a) haven’t done a direct comparison between PA and other options, or
b) intend to sell fewer than 45 copies personally, intend to sell virtually no copies to strangers, and place no value on retaining editorial control, retaining their own publishing rights, or on customer service.

[Rolling Thunder]

Just the idea of tying up copyright gives me the creeps. What if that one in a million chance pops up that an editor gets hold of your book, loves it, and wants to take over publishing?

With LuLu you can say to the interested publisher, 'Sure! Send me a contract ....and eventually...a check."

With PA, THEY Say, "Send us a check to buy the license for the copyright."

I know which pair of shoes I'd rather be wearing. Especially if the book was good enough to pull a really good publishers interest.

[LloydBrown]

Of course, you don't mean "copyright." You mean "publishing rights."

[Rolling Thunder]

Yes, that is better wording I should have used, Lloyd.

[facsmth]

I'll offer this random PA book for monetary discection...

Evil's Own Trinity (http://www.amazon.com/Evils-Own-Trinity-Dee-Robbins/dp/1413729533/ref=pd_ecc_rvi_1/102-5223257-0702561) by Robbins

And for comparison...

Children of Hurin (http://www.amazon.com/Children-Hurin-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/0618894640/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5223257-0702561?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177861255&sr=1-1) by Tolkien

Rather erie that you used Children of Hurin as a comparisson. I'd just bought that book the week before. :D

[DaveKuzminski]

Rather erie that you used Children of Hurin as a comparisson. I'd just bought that book the week before. :D

Took me a moment to realize you didn't mean the lake. Yes, that's an eerie coincidence.

[abemorgantis]

Took me a moment to realize you didn't mean the lake. Yes, that's an eerie coincidence.

Ontario coincidence I think!

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

We had "Crack of Death" in print and available from Lulu within HOURS of my receiving the offer from PA.

[James D. Macdonald]

Same with Atlanta Nights (http://www.lulu.com/content/102550).

[Nolita]

Personal observation;

Every so often I see some poor soul, trudging from bookstore to bookstore clutching a single copy of their self-published book, trying to get it on a shelf. They always leave crestfallen.

It's something to consider. At least when an agent rejects you, it's not in public, where the world can watch your heart break.

Reasons for self-publishing are your own, but that's a lot of schlepping. If you want to see your book in stores. When I looked at Publish America, they were all excited over a book getting into I think it was - a whopping 42 stores in twenty-something states. It didn't say who did the legwork.

[Christine N.]

facsmith,
Let me ask you - why are you choosing between PA and Lulu? While I find Lulu useful (I've used it myself, for printing up copies of a family history to give as gifts last Christmas) and they do print up nice product (the editor of an anthology I contributed to uses Lulu as the printer ONLY - he owns the ISBNS and has his own incorporated company), I'm wondering why you aren't seeking to hook up with a publisher?

I just don't know your story - have you submitted to publisher/agents and been rejected? Have you started at the top and worked your way down? Because PA is pretty much the bottom. Even if you've started at the top and been rejected, there are plenty of mid sized and even small presses that would do a decent job with your book, and you wouldn't have to worry about all this stuff.

Poke around here at AW awhile and you'll find there are all kinds of people published by all kinds of publishers.

You can probably do better.

[veinglory]

I doubt that informed self-publishers are approaching bookstores unless they have an arrangement in advance. And for uninformed self-publishers rejection is a necessary learning experience.

[James D. Macdonald]

Lulu posts your sales daily (indeed, hourly). If you're getting electronic funds transfers your royalties are sent monthly (quarterly if you're getting paper checks).

Plus, you haven't lost your publishing rights for seven years. Ending your association with Lulu is just a matter of clicking a radio button.

If you're looking at Do It Yourself POD, there's also CafePress. Also consider any local printshop.

For a typical PA book (250 pages, $19.95), the author's cost at the best normal discount they give per contract, when purchasing in bulk, is $13.97. That same book, printed by Lulu, would cost the author $9.53, without the requirement to buy multiple copies to get that price.

With both Lulu and PublishAmerica, the only sales you're likely to make are to people you know by name, or who you're looking in the eye at the moment cash changes hands.

If all you want is a few copies to give to family and friends, PA shouldn't even be on your radar.

[benbradley]

...
If all you want is a few copies to give to family and friends, PA shouldn't even be on your radar.

Is there a time or situation when PA SHOULD be on one's radar? Other than "I'm looking to get scammed?"

[James D. Macdonald]

Is there a time or situation when PA SHOULD be on one's radar? Other than "I'm looking to get scammed?"

If you're so inept that you can't even manage to dump an RTF file into Lulu and pick out one of their stock covers ...

Well, no. I can't think of any time PA would be a reasonable choice for anyone. Who wants to lose their rights for seven years and get verbal abuse into the bargain?

[facsmth]

facsmith,
I'm wondering why you aren't seeking to hook up with a publisher?

I guess I've just got an impatient streak. Other than that, I suffer from depression and a possible mood disorder.


I just don't know your story - have you submitted to publisher/agents and been rejected? Have you started at the top and worked your way down? Because PA is pretty much the bottom. Even if you've started at the top and been rejected, there are plenty of mid sized and even small presses that would do a decent job with your book, and you wouldn't have to worry about all this stuff.

Poke around here at AW awhile and you'll find there are all kinds of people published by all kinds of publishers.

You can probably do better.

I guess I've just got an impatient streak. Other than that, I suffer from depression and a possible mood disorder. I'm not entirely sure. Either that or, as I sometimes tell people, I'm a moderately autistic idiot savaunt. Much of writing I do, when I'm in the zone, happens almost automatically. The only effort comes in editing this stuff and revising. :D

You say I can do better, but I'm very doubtful of my own abilities. A friend said I was very specific and descriptive in my writing. I guess I've gotten this habit from reading so many darn novels since I was in JR high. I sometimes wish I wasn't so STUCK on being descriptive. So I'm seeing this as a possible weakness.

No, I haven't been rejected by any publishers. But I have been rejected so often as a youngster that I grew up to be a rather lonely person. I regularly attend a drop-in-center on the other side of the county and pretty much have no friends outside of the Mental Health system.

Sorry for the long story, but you wanted to know mine. :D

[LeslieB]

I can understand being impatient. Everyone would love to be published right now, instead of waiting. But you need to ask yourself what exactly you want from your book.

If you want to be able to walk into a bookstore and see your book on the shelf (without having to talk to the manager to get it there), then you need to go the agent/publisher route. Self publishing will get your story onto paper, but it won't put your book into anyone's hands. You will have to do all the selling yourself. A commercial publisher does the selling for you by getting your book into stores.

If you just want some copies to give your friends and relatives, then Lulu or even a local print shop would be good options. But if you want more than a handful of sales, then you need to aim higher.

[facsmth]

Well, that's why I came here. Uh, to be truthful I was on rotten tomatoe's message board when someone told me using PA was a bad idea and after following some links they gave, I spotted this forum.

Wanted advice. :D

[CatSlave]

Tell your friend thank you. :)

[Sassenach]

I guess I've just got an impatient streak. Other than that, I suffer from depression and a possible mood disorder.



I guess I've just got an impatient streak. Other than that, I suffer from depression and a possible mood disorder. I'm not entirely sure. Either that or, as I sometimes tell people, I'm a moderately autistic idiot savaunt. Much of writing I do, when I'm in the zone, happens almost automatically. The only effort comes in editing this stuff and revising. :D

You say I can do better, but I'm very doubtful of my own abilities. A friend said I was very specific and descriptive in my writing. I guess I've gotten this habit from reading so many darn novels since I was in JR high. I sometimes wish I wasn't so STUCK on being descriptive. So I'm seeing this as a possible weakness.

No, I haven't been rejected by any publishers. But I have been rejected so often as a youngster that I grew up to be a rather lonely person. I regularly attend a drop-in-center on the other side of the county and pretty much have no friends outside of the Mental Health system.

Sorry for the long story, but you wanted to know mine. :D

You're unique. Just like every other writer. Facsmth, I urge you not to sell yourself short.

[LeslieB]

Well, that's why I came here. Uh, to be truthful I was on rotten tomatoe's message board when someone told me using PA was a bad idea and after following some links they gave, I spotted this forum.

Wanted advice. :D

That's why most of us came here. Nobody is born knowing the ins and outs of the publishing industry. And there is no better place to get advice than from the many professionals here.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention earlier. When talking about self-publishing, a lot of times people think, "I don't need bookstores, because my book will be listed on Amazon/the internet." The problem with that is that nobody will know your book exists. How can they look for a book they've never heard of? By an author they've never read? That's why bookstore placement is so important for fiction. People want to flip through the pages before they hand over their cash.

As others have said, don't sell yourself short. Aim for the top, not the bottom. It takes time and hard work to really make it as a writer. Stephen King started submitted stories to magazines when he was fourteen, but it took years before he sold the first one. He was in his twenties before he sold his first novel. I realize that when you are young, a year seems like a century, but if you want the world to read your work, you have to stick with it through the long haul.

[Queen of Swords]

People want to flip through the pages before they hand over their cash.

Exactly. I've only special-ordered two books in my life from a bookstore, and both were books I'd read at the library. I wouldn't spend my money on something I hadn't read yet, unless it was the next George R. R. Martin novel.

[Christine N.]

Or JK Rowling's.
Or James A. Owen's
Or Tamora Pierce's...

LOL Sorry.

And a year goes much faster if you spend it writing your next book. Believe me; I just realized I've been writing books on a serious level for six years now. Six years??? (well, more like five and a half; I started Talisman of Zandria in late September2001.) Where did those six years go??? I wrote, I submitted. I wrote some more. Repeat until published. Now I've got two books coming out in under twelve months from two different publishers. I sometimes sit back and just say..."wow". My son wasn't even conceived when I started writing, now he's four. Time is an amazing thing when you're busy.

[James D. Macdonald]

About 10% of commercial books are sold on-line.

Of those sold on-line, 95% are from among the same 200,000 titles stocked in a major big-box bookstore.

So as a self-published or vanity published author, you're duking it out for on-line sales of 5% of 10% ... half of one percent of book sales.

[facsmth]

Y'know, this reminds me of something. I'd read in his biography that Mick Foley had published a couple novels and some children's books. So I went to B&N to find his books. There were exactly two of them where the novels were located. The poor things looked so lonely there... You could of easily not even known they were in the store at all....

I guess in a few weeks I'll get the urge to actually have my own stuff published legitamately. But until then, I'll keep thinking of those poor Foley books. I've considered getting published-by-lulu... but all these recommendations have convinced me that, yes, I can do better.

[JimmyD1318]

Y'know, this reminds me of something. I'd read in his biography that Mick Foley had published a couple novels and some children's books. So I went to B&N to find his books. There were exactly two of them where the novels were located. The poor things looked so lonely there... You could of easily not even known they were in the store at all....


But they WERE in the store. And if and when someone buys them, Mick Foley will be PAID for them. With PA the books won't be there and the chances you getting paid for your work is slim to none.

[The_Grand_Duchess]

Y'know, this reminds me of something. I'd read in his biography that Mick Foley had published a couple novels and some children's books. So I went to B&N to find his books. There were exactly two of them where the novels were located. The poor things looked so lonely there... You could of easily not even known they were in the store at all....

I guess in a few weeks I'll get the urge to actually have my own stuff published legitamately. But until then, I'll keep thinking of those poor Foley books. I've considered getting published-by-lulu... but all these recommendations have convinced me that, yes, I can do better.

I have one of Mic Foley's children's books! And I just want to point out that its probably not best to use Mic as a measuring stick. Even if he had no books in stores he would probably do pretty ok online since he is like a hardcore legend and the WWE pimps his books everytime one drops.

[CaoPaux]

Not to mention that his books are usually shelved in the sports/entertainment/TV section(s). (Couple copies each in both HB & PB, last I checked. Plus a placard display for his latest. :cool:)

[Anne Lyle]

I guess in a few weeks I'll get the urge to actually have my own stuff published legitamately. But until then, I'll keep thinking of those poor Foley books. I've considered getting published-by-lulu... but all these recommendations have convinced me that, yes, I can do better.

Glad to hear you're feeling positive about your writing. That's what places like AW are for!

And remember (correct me if I'm wrong, UJ and all), with a one-off, no-ISBN, no-Amazon-distribution printing from Lulu (or a similar printers), you can have all the ego-boost of holding a copy of your book in your hands for the price of only a few dollars - and still go on to sell that book to a real publisher without any hassle at all.

If it makes your dream seem nearer coming true and motivates you to persevere, it would be well worth the miniscule expense. As long as you don't mistake it for the real deal and settle for nothing more ;)

[James D. Macdonald]

Lulu: The author provides a cover image. It can be clip art, the writer’s own design, or a professional image costing thousands of dollars.

A minor correction: Lulu also has a library of stock covers that you can select from if you're totally unable to do any graphics work on your own.

The price comparison is incredibly generous to PA. While PA does grant a 50% author discount in the first couple of weeks of a book's availability, after that (unless they're running a special), the author's discount is 20% for 1-20 copies and 30% for more than that.

[LloydBrown]

Ah, thanks, Uncle Jim. I didn't check up on the regular prices very thoroughly.

Two more reasons to use Lulu, as if it were even a question in the first place.