How to stretch out a novel to fill more pages?

[Michael Dracon]

I didn't want to hijack another thread for this question, so I posted it in a new one.

I have a problem in that I'm thinking too big. I have two full-blown trilogies layed out on docs.google.com and each of them are actually already split up in 3 acts. I know when MCs are going to get hurt, when some MCs will leave and when new MCs will be added. I know the personality of an MC that won't appear until book 4. I know how the events in book 1 will affect what ultimately will happen in book 6. Hell, I have ideas for a sci-fi trilogy that will show the results of a major cataclysmic event that happens in book 5.

But I'm currently writing the first few chapters of book 1 and I have no idea on how to fill up the word count... :o I know exactly what needs to happen in the book. I even split it into 3 parts. But with what I have right now I come up to about 10k words for part 1, and the novel needs to become about 100k words...

I know how to plan big things. It's the little things that keep bugging me. I need to figure out how to stretch a two-line chat into a two-page conversation. How do I turn 10k words into 40k?

[Shady Lane]

I have no idea, but when you figure it out, let me know. I'm tired of writing YA's under 30,000 words.

[scarletpeaches]

One of the characters could have a really long dream, described in detail. Then you have them wake up and say to a friend, "Whoa...I just had a really weird dream. Wanna hear all about it?"

[Chumplet]

Write the story, then go back and flesh it out with description, action etc. Get some feeeeeeling into it.

[Siddow]

Look over it and make sure you're writing it in scenes. Showing, not telling.

And perhaps think about this: maybe you do only have enough for one book.

[Penguin Queen]

Maybe I'm getting hung up on the word here, but "stretching" does not sound like a good idea to me. You do not want to write "filler". It will read like filler. You do not want one word too many.

You say you plan big, but if things dont start happening until Book #3, why would your readers want to read Book #1? Might it be a better idea to cut all the "filler" and make one book out of your proposed trilogy?

Or else, come up with more plot and stuff that happens now. A sub-plot, a new character.... that kinda thing. You must want to write this, otherwise poeple won't want to read it.

[NeuroFizz]

But I'm currently writing the first few chapters of book 1 and I have no idea on how to fill up the word count...
I'll be blunt. First, of all, I suspect the clipped quote above was just a poor choice of words. Putting words on paper does not make a story. Nothing in a novel should be put in to fill up the word count. It will probably be quite obvious to the reader. Every chapter, every paragraph, every sentence should contribute to the story in some way.

Second, you shouldn't be thinking about a trilogy, particularly two of them, until you can first complete book one. And it has to be written as a stand alone story. It can certainly form a multi-volume story arc, but each book should have enough of a resolution to allow it to be read and understood without reading the others. So, you have to shift your thinking to that prospect--discovering and elaborating the story arc of the first book before worrying about what's going to happen in the other books.

This has been said multiple times by writers with much more experience than I have (paraphrased)--ideas are a dime a dozen, and jotting them down doesn't make a person a writer. It takes a writer to weave those ideas into a coherent and interesting story.

[Shady Lane]

One of the characters could have a really long dream, described in detail. Then you have them wake up and say to a friend, "Whoa...I just had a really weird dream. Wanna hear all about it?"

*Starts writing furiously*

[Michael Dracon]

I have been thinking of putting a whole trilogy of those ideas into one single book. But then there is just so much happening in one single book. Another problem is that each of the novels, as currently planned, has a gap of a few months in between them. There have to be gaps in there because the MCs need time to learn certain things.


Let me lay out book 1:
Part 1:
- chapter 1 introduces 2 MCs, 2 sisters to be more exact
- chapter 2 introduces the third MC (the goth-to-be mentioned in another thread)
- chapter 3 complicates matters and gives some idea of what the antagonists are like. in here the MCs will realize that magic can help them solve it
- chapter 4 has the MCs finding a way to learn magic
- chapter 5, 6 and 7 each follows a single MC learning magic

Part 2:
In here the MCs are going to find the antagonists and confront them

Part 3:
In here the MCs are going to find the persons behind the previous antagonists and confront them as well. Here a 4th MC will join in and help out.



So far part 1 has about 10k words worth of stuff. With the amount of details already put in part 1 I have no clue how to flesh out parts 2 and 3 yet. And with chapters clocking in at about 1000 to 2000 words I'm thinking I'm not putting in enough details...


I've been thinking of splitting chapter 1 into two chapters. But then I'll have the 3 first chapters each follow a different MC. And I don't want the reader to lose track there already.

[Judg]

I'm not going to repeat what I said in the other thread. Maybe you're trying to stretch too little plot over too many books. PQ's suggestion sounds good to me.

It's hard to say without seeing the outline of your plot though. Is your problem too little plot? In that case, listen to PQ. Or is your pacing way too fast, burning through events faster than readers can absorb them? In that case, you really do need to "pad" things with description, character development, internal conflict, some sideways exploration, exposition of motivation. But all of this should serve, if not to advance the plot, to flesh it out, reveal character, support the theme, engage the reader. Call on the five senses, look at body language, set up some undercurrents...

Check out the questions I posted in the Chapter Set-up thread. They might be helpful sometimes.

[infinitus_kaze]

I'll be blunt. First, of all, I suspect the clipped quote above was just a poor choice of words. Putting words on paper does not make a story. Nothing in a novel should be put in to fill up the word count. It will probably be quite obvious to the reader. Every chapter, every paragraph, every sentence should contribute to the story in some way.

Second, you shouldn't be thinking about a trilogy, particularly two of them, until you can first complete book one. And it has to be written as a stand alone story. It can certainly form a multi-volume story arc, but each book should have enough of a resolution to allow it to be read and understood without reading the others. So, you have to shift your thinking to that prospect--discovering and elaborating the story arc of the first book before worrying about what's going to happen in the other books.

This has been said multiple times by writers with much more experience than I have (paraphrased)--ideas are a dime a dozen, and jotting them down doesn't make a person a writer. It takes a writer to weave those ideas into a coherent and interesting story.

I agree that you should not try to "fill up" anything as far as word count is concerned because a novel does NOT need to be 100K words like you originally posted. Depending on the age level you are writing for a novel can be anywhere from 15,000 words and up. You shouldn't try to aim for a specific word count. Instead, write the story and see how long it is.

However, I do disagree with NeuroFizz on not writing a series as a beginning author. I think that if you have what it takes to write a series you should go for it, but you have to be realistic about it. For example, my first project, The Gemstone Chronicles, was originally meant to be a seven book series, but as I began to plot out everything I realized that I didn't have enough story for a large series like that. Now the story is a trilogy. Look at your story and see what you really have to work with. Don't try to set unrealistic goals where you need to fill in the story with nonsense. Look at your story logically and see if it should be altered into a two book series or a single novel. If you feel you still have enough for a trilogy, by all means do it, but don't try to flush a story out unnecessarily or the story will get flushed by agents and publishers.

So far part 1 has about 10k words worth of stuff. With the amount of details already put in part 1 I have no clue how to flesh out parts 2 and 3 yet. And with chapters clocking in at about 1000 to 2000 words I'm thinking I'm not putting in enough details...

The size of the chapters is dependant on the age of your target audience. If you are writing a YA or Pre-teen then I'd say 2000-5000 word chapters is sufficient.

[Judg]

Um, what HAPPENS in those first few chapters? Introductions can be tedious.

Your problem seems to be a lack of conflict. Conflict isn't necessarily fighting: it's having a goal and being blocked in reaching it. You don't have to pull the central conflict in right away, but the POV character for the chapter should be trying to accomplish something (perhaps dumped in his/her lap by circumstances) and having some difficulty in doing so.

Gaps of time within a novel are not a problem. It happens all the time.

[Michael Dracon]

I'll be blunt. First, of all, I suspect the clipped quote above was just a poor choice of words. Putting words on paper does not make a story. Nothing in a novel should be put in to fill up the word count. It will probably be quite obvious to the reader. Every chapter, every paragraph, every sentence should contribute to the story in some way.

Second, you shouldn't be thinking about a trilogy, particularly two of them, until you can first complete book one. And it has to be written as a stand alone story. It can certainly form a multi-volume story arc, but each book should have enough of a resolution to allow it to be read and understood without reading the others. So, you have to shift your thinking to that prospect--discovering and elaborating the story arc of the first book before worrying about what's going to happen in the other books.

This has been said multiple times by writers with much more experience than I have (paraphrased)--ideas are a dime a dozen, and jotting them down doesn't make a person a writer. It takes a writer to weave those ideas into a coherent and interesting story.


Each of the books I've got planned has its own self-contained story. So far so good.

I'm already trying to set aside the bigger picture and focus on just book 1. But my problem is that apparantly my writing is very compact. And when I say 'fill it up' I do mean that. My conversations and desciptions of situations and locations are all straight and to-the-point. And that's where I need to fill it up.

I need to figure out a way to turn a small chat into a multi-page conversation without adding needless things.

[rwam]

My advice would be to write what you see as being 3 books and do the opposite: tighten, tighten....and tighten some more. Maybe it's a bad hunch, but my hunch says after doing so, you'll have a full-sized novel. I know it sounds cool to say you're writing a trilogy or two, but if you're unpublished (and I'm assuming you are) agents tend to be very very very very very very very reluctant and also a wee bit skeptical of looking at trilogies from first time novelists. And even if you end up with a series? I'd still make the first one stand on its own and market it as such.

[NeuroFizz]

Your outline doesn't give much information, Michael, so disregard the following if you are already doing something like the following.

It seems like you are playing the role of film director, with screenplay in hand--directing your characters through various movements and actions. What you should be doing is climbing into the skin of your characters while they are experiencing various events and challenges. Don't introduce us to your charcters, show them in some kind of scene in which their actions introduce us to how they act and react to that specific incident, so it tells us something about their character.

Having a chapter devoted to each of three MCs--to show in sequence how they learned magic -- may come off as contrived, telling. Try to avoid the descriptive distance and the rigid listing of topics. Write scenes in which you are the characters so we can see them from the inside out, not just from the outside at a distance.

Judg has excellent points on this.

[infinitus_kaze]

Each of the books I've got planned has its own self-contained story. So far so good.

I'm already trying to set aside the bigger picture and focus on just book 1. But my problem is that apparantly my writing is very compact. And when I say 'fill it up' I do mean that. My conversations and desciptions of situations and locations are all straight and to-the-point. And that's where I need to fill it up.

I need to figure out a way to turn a small chat into a multi-page conversation without adding needless things.

This statement alone tells me that you probably aren't ready to write a novel yet. It sounds to me like you are trying to mold your writing style after someone else because there is nothing wrong with having your dialogue and descriptions straight forward. That is how many authors write.

I would recommend that you put your novel on hold and start working on short stories for the time being. Short stories are an excellent way of improving your skills and when you feel that your skills have reached a proper level, then begin working on the novel.

[Sassenach]

I need to figure out a way to turn a small chat into a multi-page conversation without adding needless things.

This seems to indicate that you're not getting the point. There is no way to turn a small chat into a multi-page conversation.

[Michael Dracon]

Um, what HAPPENS in those first few chapters? Introductions can be tedious.

Your problem seems to be a lack of conflict. Conflict isn't necessarily fighting: it's having a goal and being blocked in reaching it. You don't have to pull the central conflict in right away, but the POV character for the chapter should be trying to accomplish something (perhaps dumped in his/her lap by circumstances) and having some difficulty in doing so.

Gaps of time within a novel are not a problem. It happens all the time.


In the first half of chapter 1 the following happens:
- Sister 1 works as a secretary at an insurance company. The first thing in the book is her handling several unhappy customers coming to her desk to complain. The first will wield a silver sword because he thinks it helps in defeating (what he thinks is) the monster behind the company. One more weird person right after that will illustrate that there is something strange going on.
- Sister 1 will check out something odd on one monitor and go out and check it. She'll end up finding a hidden room and peek in to see her boss do an unknown but clearly magical ritual
- Sister 1 will report this to her immediate superior and then will be sent off on paid vacation for making no sence to said person.
- Sister 1 will get a phone from Sister 2's school that she's causing trouble.

The second part of chapter 1 will show what kind of trouble that is.


Plenty of conflict. Hell, someone else would probably turn those 4 points into 2 full chapters already. But for some reason I just cannot get it fleshed out to something barely being just 1 chapter.

[Michael Dracon]

This seems to indicate that you're not getting the point. There is no way to turn a small chat into a multi-page conversation.

I get the point just fine. I don't want to do that.

My problem seems to be in general speed of things. I want things to happen quickly per chapter. But in most of the novels I read I see a lot less happening in a single chapter. Only the Dresden Files seem to come close to the speed I'd like to have in my novel, and that's because those generally have about 4 problems going on at the same time.

With me putting in some speed leads to compact writing, and thus less words...

It's an odd paradox.


Edit: sorry to edit this a few times, I need to find the right words to explain this.

[Kristin Landon]

This is a first draft, so why not relax and stop worrying about word count? Just write it to the length that feels right, and when you're done, see what you have. There's plenty of work left at that point, anyway.

Later in the process you may figure out a complication or an additional plotline that will flesh things out in the second draft while keeping the writing naturally compact.

Or, you may find you just have less book than you thought you did, and that your trilogy is indeed one novel. But better to settle for one solid novel than try to inflate it into something it isn't; that will show.

Either judgment is much easier to make when you have a complete manuscript.

[infinitus_kaze]

In the first half of chapter 1 the following happens:
- Sister 1 works as a secretary at an insurance company. The first thing in the book is her handling several unhappy customers coming to her desk to complain. The first will wield a silver sword because he thinks it helps in defeating (what he thinks is) the monster behind the company. One more weird person right after that will illustrate that there is something strange going on.
- Sister 1 will check out something odd on one monitor and go out and check it. She'll end up finding a hidden room and peek in to see her boss do an unknown but clearly magical ritual
- Sister 1 will report this to her immediate superior and then will be sent off on paid vacation for making no sence to said person.
- Sister 1 will get a phone from Sister 2's school that she's causing trouble.

The second part of chapter 1 will show what kind of trouble that is.


Plenty of conflict. Hell, someone else would probably turn those 4 points into 2 full chapters already. But for some reason I just cannot get it fleshed out to something barely being just 1 chapter.

That actually isn't enough conflict for a single chapter and you would be hard pressed to find any author who would be able to turn it into two chapters. The simple fact that you keep pushing the issue and insisting on expanding the plot is enough to make my head hurt.

I don't want to be rude and I'm trying not to be, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. Unless you come to grips with the fact that your writing style is your own and stop worrying about "filling up" space, you will never make it as an author. You ARE NOT ready to write a novel and won't be ready any time in the near future if you continue to remain stubborn. Work on improving your skills and locking into your own style through short stories and then move on to novels when you finally understand what it takes to write one, which I get the impression more and more each time you respond, you don't understand what it takes to write one.

I recommend you take writing classes at a university, join a writers workshop, or something to help you to understand writing better.

[Fillanzea]

I suggest that you type up some entire chapters by writers whose pacing you admire. Type them out, so you can observe firsthand how much detail they include and where, and how they pace their scenes.

[CaroGirl]

I think you're going about things backwards. Novels don't begin with word count. They begin with characters, situations, plot, and, above all, story. Write your story. Use an outline if you must, but don't plan it as a trilogy. Plan it as a single story and divide it if you can't reasonably fit it into one book.

But, really, just write and write and write until "the end." Then see whatcha got. Honestly.

[WildScribe]

Maybe I'm getting hung up on the word here, but "stretching" does not sound like a good idea to me. You do not want to write "filler". It will read like filler. You do not want one word too many.


Yup.

[rubarbb]

Good arvice rwam, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Tighten it up, get rid of usless info and/or words.

[jst5150]

I remember using the "really, really," method to lengthen essays in high school.

[infinitus_kaze]

I don't want to be rude and I'm trying not to be, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. Unless you come to grips with the fact that your writing style is your own and stop worrying about "filling up" space, you will never make it as an author. You ARE NOT ready to write a novel and won't be ready any time in the near future if you continue to remain stubborn. Work on improving your skills and locking into your own style through short stories and then move on to novels when you finally understand what it takes to write one, which I get the impression more and more each time you respond, you don't understand what it takes to write one.

I recommend you take writing classes at a university, join a writers workshop, or something to help you to understand writing better.

I think this needs rewording. Here's what I was trying to tell you: The most important thing to a writer is not length; it is quality. You need to stop worrying about the length of your story and just write it to the best of your ability. If it turns out too short to be a novel...who cares? Just call it a novella and be done with it. If you can understand this concept and work towards quality rather than quantity you are ready to write a novel, but if you keep insisting on quantity over quality like you have been you should take my above suggestion and join a writers workshop, reading group, take a writing course or two, or something else to help you understand the writing process.

[JanDarby]

Pick ONE protagonist, and figure out what she wants and what she's doing to get it and who's stopping her from getting it. Then show her taking an action toward her goal and someone stopping her from that goal. End of scene. Start a new scene, with the same protagonist or a second pov character or the antagonist, but whoever it is -- someone with a goal, taking an action toward that goal, and show that action and someone stopping that person from achieving his/her goal. End of scene. Start a new scene, with a pov character (preferably the protagonist, antagonist or a major secondary character), with a goal, taking an action toward that goal, and being stopped from achieving that goal. Repeat.

Think in terms of cause and effect. You, as the author, know why certain things are happening, and that's fine, but on the page, it's a matter of what the POV character knows, and her cause & effect. She knows she wants X (goal), because Y (motivation), but Z (antagonist's actions). She does something for a reason, and something else happens as a result of her initial action. And then she decides to take a new action, which will also have consequences.

Using your information, it would play out along these lines:

Protagonist (sister 1 -- and if she's not the protagonist, then the story probably shouldn't start with her), wants to get the unhappy customers gone, so she can go home and get ready for a date. (or whatever; what's her goal, from her point of view, not yours as the author? ) Customer X (antagonist for the scene) wields a silver sword that he claims will defeat the monster behind the company. Forget about the other weird person, and just show how Customer X keeps her from leaving the office on time (which was her goal). Scene ends when she is late, and decides as long as she can't get to her date on time, she might as well cancel it and catch up on some work.

New scene: she's on her way to her boss's office to report the oddity she's just found on her computer (goal = to report problem to her boss, motivation = to do her job or something like that), and instead finds a hidden room and inside is her boss doing an unknown but clearly magical ritual. She realizes she's not supposed to see this, and had better go tell her intermediate supervisor. End of scene.

New scene: Protagonist reports weirdness to her supervisor (goal = to report weirdness and presumably get it stopped, motivation = to do her job), but instead supervisor announces she's the employee of the month, and hands over plane ticket to exotic place. End of scene.

And so on.

Although, having said all this, most of it sounds like backstory, stuff that happens before the story actually starts. What's the inciting event of the story? What we've got here is clues and hints, but no real problem for the protagonist. Consider starting later, when the protagonist realizes there's a problem, and then she can just say, "Oh, now it makes sense that my supervisor gave me a vacation for reporting my boss doing an illegal magic act." Which is all that matters from what you've described here, so you may not need to show it in detaail, and that may be why you can't get it to cover more than a few paragraphs, b/c it only justifies a few paragraphs in the story.

JD

[job]

A lot of folks argue about whether story arises from plot or from character.
They must enjoy this, because they keep at it.

You have your plot.
This is like having your glass aquarium and the rocks and the elodea and the water.

You are wondering why nothing happens.
You need fish.
You need characters.


Sister One is Raquel Sunshine Golnifkoff.
She has an IQ of 180 and speaks eight dead languages, but only one living one. She paints her toenails bright red, but nobody ever sees her toes -- or any other part of her -- naked so this is not apparent. She works as a secretary to support herself while she pursues her life's work -- translating the complete writings of Montaigne into Aramaic. This makes her a somewhat sloppy secretary. She's violently alergic to wheat products, shellfish and eggs. She's not fat, but she has a definite little budge belly. Her secret vice is 'House', which she considers intellectually beneath her, but cannot resist. Sometimes she chips at 'Criminal Minds.'

OK.

Scene One, Chapter One opens. Raquel is rooting through her desk drawer, hoping for one last Reese's peanut butter cup, (another secret vice,) She wishes her day job would just go away. She has, to put it succinctly, an attitude.

Man with silver sword walks up.

Raquel is about to demonstrate why accountants and engineers enter by a side door rather than walk past her desk.

What does the man with the silver sword desperately want?
What does Raquel desperately want?

Your dialog is not about explaining the plot to the reader.
Your dialog is about Raquel and Elmer frustrating each other.

If your characters do not have a 'voice' -- you don't know them well enough.

[jst5150]

If your characters do not have a 'voice' -- you don't know them well enough.

"Really, really well enough."

[Cassidy]

well, two thoughts:

1. i often find i add quite a bit when i write a second draft. i replace some "tell" with "show", so, for example, a description of someone as "trendy" might be replaced by a description of her appearance and clothing. also, i identify which characters need further development and might add or lengthen scenes to flesh them out more fully. sometimes readers will tell me they wondered about particular things, like a character's motivation, and i might add lines of dialogue to an existing scene to clarify or further develop that. etc etc. so if you tend to write very concisely, you might find your second draft longer than your first.

2. re infintus_kaze's comments, i don't think it's useful to say someone isn't ready to write a novel. short fiction and novels are separate things and both have their own challenges. not to dismiss writing classes, as we can all benefit from other's experience and ideas, but i think the best way to learn to write a novel is to write one. or two. or three.

good luck and happy writing.

[job]

>>"Really, really well enough."<<<

giggle

[jst5150]

good luck and happy writing.

"And really, really happy writing."

OK. I swear that's it.

jt

[infinitus_kaze]

2. re infintus_kaze's comments, i don't think it's useful to say someone isn't ready to write a novel. short fiction and novels are separate things and both have their own challenges. not to dismiss writing classes, as we can all benefit from other's experience and ideas, but i think the best way to learn to write a novel is to write one. or two. or three.


That's where we have to agree to disagree because I find it very useful to say someone isn't ready to write a novel. I've had to deal with this issue myself. I have always loved writing short stories, essays, and poetry since elementary school, so I tried to write a novel in high school and found very clearly that I wasn't ready to write a novel. I made it about 30 pages into the novel before I realized that I had no clue what I was doing and the story wasn't going anywhere. It was a completely different process from writing short stories and it was a process I can honestly say I wasn't ready for. Yet, even though short stories and novels are different, they all follow the same pattern of character development and plot development, so the more I wrote short stories the better I got at novels without realizing it.

Now, seven years later, I fully understand the concept of writing a novel; the amount of work that goes into the planning of characters, plot, mood, theme, dialogue, and description. Now I am currently working on 2 novels and it is a completely different experience from the last time I tried. Last time the process was completely frustrating and a could never get anywhere. Now, I sit down and my fingers don't stop moving over the keyboard. The process became easy and fun because I gained an understanding of how to write a novel. I see Michael Dracon in the same boat I was in. He appears to be where I was seven years ago, unable to understand the concepts and worrying about unimportant issues. He needs time to learn in a stress-free environment and learning by attempting to write something he doesn't understand is not stress-free.

[Judg]

*longs for the days when she still fully understood anything*

or not

[Anya Smith]

Here's my 2 cents, but keep in mind that I'm a beginner. I agree with NeuroFizz. Just to fill up for the sake of word count doesn't make a story. I always have the opposite problem; in the end of stories and novels, I have to cut them because they've grown into fat things.

I'm working on book 2 in a series, and have a plan for 6-7, but all books will be standalones. I think you should aim for that approach.

[blacbird]

More story. Not more words.

caw

[infinitus_kaze]

*longs for the days when she still fully understood anything*

or not

You know what I meant. No one can ever fully understand anything, so that probably wasn't a great choice of words. I meant that I understand intimately the concepts of writing that seemed to be beyond my grasp seven years ago.

[Shady Lane]

I get the point just fine. I don't want to do that.

My problem seems to be in general speed of things. I want things to happen quickly per chapter. But in most of the novels I read I see a lot less happening in a single chapter. Only the Dresden Files seem to come close to the speed I'd like to have in my novel, and that's because those generally have about 4 problems going on at the same time.

With me putting in some speed leads to compact writing, and thus less words...

It's an odd paradox.


Edit: sorry to edit this a few times, I need to find the right words to explain this.

I know where you're coming from. I have the same problem, although all my books are singletons. I have a defined plot. I have plenty of character development. I have completed novels that make my beta readers swoon. But they're so damn short, all the time. The average length for a YA (non-genre) novel is about 80,000, while mine rarely clock in past 50,000.

And it's not that I don't know how to write, and if I were you I think I'd be pretty pissed off with all these accusations that you don't know how to write. It's just hard sometimes. I understand.

I don't really have much advice, since it's my problem as well. But I find that when I keep writing drafts, words just tack themselves on. A few sentences of clarification every few pages really adds up after awhile. (Really, really really adds up ;) )

I guess I'm comiserating more than advising.

[infinitus_kaze]

And it's not that I don't know how to write, and if I were you I think I'd be pretty pissed off with all these accusations that you don't know how to write. It's just hard sometimes. I understand.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never once made an accusation that he didn't know how to write. I said he appears to not understand the concepts of writing a novel. That is not the same thing!!! There are many excellent writers out there that couldn't write a novel to save their life, but are excellent at writing other styles like poetry, essays, shorts, children's books, non-fiction, technical writing, and other styles of writing.

[herdon]

Not sure if the O.P. is a newer writer or not, but I found when I first started writing short stories they were pretty short and to the point. Action. Dialogue. Action. Dialogue. Done. As I wrote more these strange new words began creeping into them

One thing I would say to anyone working on their first novel-length manuscript is to view it as a learning process. If it ends up publishable, great, but many times the writer discovers how to put together a novel while writing that first one -- and the mistakes made are often times too great to easily overcome.

I know that my first novel-length manuscript was editing over and over again and I finally looked at it and decided it looked more like a plate of spaggetti than a book. I started a second novel and, eventually, went back and completely rewrote the first one -- turned out roughly infinity times better. Maybe even infinity+1 times better.

[Shady Lane]

You're putting words in my mouth. I never once made an accusation that he didn't know how to write. I said he appears to not understand the concepts of writing a novel. That is not the same thing!!! There are many excellent writers out there that couldn't write a novel to save their life, but are excellent at writing other styles like poetry, essays, shorts, children's books, non-fiction, technical writing, and other styles of writing.

I didn't mean you. I meant in general.

[Judg]

You know what I meant. No one can ever fully understand anything, so that probably wasn't a great choice of words. I meant that I understand intimately the concepts of writing that seemed to be beyond my grasp seven years ago.
Infintus, I know you mean well, but one of the concepts of writing that you may still have to grasp is that of voice. Try re-reading all your posts in this thread and try to imagine what kind of voice it is that you are projecting. Ask yourself if this is the effect that you want. If it is, and if you continue, you mustn't be surprised if you get - reactions. If it isn't, then you need to hone your writing skills.

[jonereb]

I'd be concerned about writing filler for the sake of word count. I thought my YA would be about 60K. Turned into 48K. Now I'm tightening it up and it's down to 43k. I've considered ways to bring it back up a few 1000 words, but I'm not sure it adds to the story. So I've decided not to worry about word count. Just tell the story as best I can...and not a word more.

[BlueBadger]

That's where we have to agree to disagree because I find it very useful to say someone isn't ready to write a novel. I've had to deal with this issue myself.

I'll have to agree to disagree myself: Trial and error, not classes or lessons, is what taught me when I was ready to write a novel. I made several miserable attempts before I got to the stage I'm at now--but until I saw those half-formed creations down on paper (or the screen, as it were) I had no idea my voice was strained.

But every time I scrapped and re-wrote my ideas, they came out much better.

[czjaba]

I don't have my books published, so I'm not sure if you want to know my strategy, but here it is anyway: I don't have one.
For the 2nd book I wrote, I had my outline ready, my characters strengths, weaknesses, personalities, and even what they looked like. About half way, I had to re-write the entire outline because for some reason, the characters weren't following it. At that point, I decided it would come in around 85,000 words.
When it was all done, it came in at 77,000 words even after 4 edits. So, I left it alone and moved on to something else.

[blacbird]

One of the problems I've seen with inexperienced writers who start with detailed outlining is inadequately rendered scenes. I don't mean to criticize outlining. Many writers work very well with a process that starts by outlining plot action. But if it's not giving you enough fully realized narrative, you may be working too much at a write-by-number fill-in-the-blank process.

Now, those of us (me among them) who work more by seat-of-pants process, without an initial outlined plot framework, often have other problems. So, somehow, you need to find a useful middle ground.

Think in terms of scenes. If your outline calls for a certain scene or situation, work solely on that, and make it vivid and full. Then move on to the next scene in your plot.

caw

[infinitus_kaze]

Infintus, I know you mean well, but one of the concepts of writing that you may still have to grasp is that of voice. Try re-reading all your posts in this thread and try to imagine what kind of voice it is that you are projecting. Ask yourself if this is the effect that you want. If it is, and if you continue, you mustn't be surprised if you get - reactions. If it isn't, then you need to hone your writing skills.

The voice I portray on these forums and the voice I portray in my characters are two different things. I convey my voice while on here, including all the flaws that come with my personality. I don't try to sugarcoat anything when I write on forums or in chat rooms. I am who I am and I don't try to hide it from the public. You want me to analyze the voice I've projected so far in this forum? Here goes:

My first post was written in a friendly, helpful manner.

My second post was still trying to be helpful, but I was irritated by Michael's persistent attempts to not take people's advice about focusing on story and not worrying about size, so I commented my honest feelings based on his defiant attempts to ignore our help.

In my third post I had thrown all caution to the wind because I was annoyed. I continued to be bluntly honest because that is who I am; a person who is always honest no matter how my honesty will affect others.

For my fourth post, I had calmed down a bit and tried to explain myself without being hurtful.

My fifth post was me explaining my own position to Michael and letting him know that there is nothing wrong with waiting to write a novel and that I didn't look down on such practice because I had done so myself and found it much more helpful, in personal experience, then trying to trudge through territory I wasn't ready to trudge through.

My sixth post was a little defensive, but it was meant to re-word a section of my previous post because I hadn't worded it in a very efficient manner.

My last post was really defensive because I felt like I was being attacked. Anyone who feels threatened gets aggressive and strikes back on their suspected offender. I now realize that I didn't need to get defensive because I wasn't being targeted in that post and I'm ashamed of my behavior in that post.

This post is meant to be informative, sarcastic, and littered with annoyance. How am I doing? Now you've witnessed some of the bad sides of my personality and you know I'm not a saint, just a normal person quick to annoyance and anger.


I didn't mean you. I meant in general.


I apologize for my retort. I thought it was a personal attack against me and I got defensive. It was rude and I apologize.


I'll have to agree to disagree myself: Trial and error, not classes or lessons, is what taught me when I was ready to write a novel. I made several miserable attempts before I got to the stage I'm at now--but until I saw those half-formed creations down on paper (or the screen, as it were) I had no idea my voice was strained.


I agree that this is one way to increase one's writing abilities and a very good way most of the time, but it doesn't always work. In order for it to work, the writer has to be at a certain stage in his/her development (which differs for each writer). There are times when a writer is not at that stage and it won't help them no matter how much they try to improve. That is where I was seven years ago. No amount of writing novels would have helped me because I needed to learn the basic concepts first. I have no idea what writing stage Michael is at, so I can't know if this will work for him. I threw the other option at him just to give him an alternative choice. Though my annoyance may have made it seem more like an insult than a suggestion and I apologize to Michael for that now.

I also think that it is necessary to tell some people who haven't improved after X attempts that they don't have what it takes to be a writer and should stop. (Michael, I'm not refering to you because I don't believe you are one of these people) It's the same with music. I'm a voice major and I see it all the time at the college; students who become music majors but don't have what it takes to be a musician. They have to be told by their teachers that they should seek another major and look for another field of work. It is a difficult and painful thing to do, but in the long run it is better than letting someone pursue something they will never be able to do because their talents and abilities don't allow them to.

[Shady Lane]

No need to apologize. :)

[Alana Mortensen]

Well, well, Mchael, you might consider reading Anne McCaffrey's "Freedom's Landing" series for research on this issue. Even some of the Dragonlance novels do this but be sure the "filler" is interesting,. does not detract from plot or storyline but actually advances it. I say again that Anne does this real well in the "Freedom's Landing" series. The books start with a climax appropriate for the end of the book and the rest is daily life on another planet capable of supporting human life. Good to read though gets a bit tedious after the third book........ but give it a go and you may well learn a thing or two. I have.

Good luck to ya mate.
Alana

[Michael Dracon]

Not sure if the O.P. is a newer writer or not, but I found when I first started writing short stories they were pretty short and to the point. Action. Dialogue. Action. Dialogue. Done. As I wrote more these strange new words began creeping into them

One thing I would say to anyone working on their first novel-length manuscript is to view it as a learning process. If it ends up publishable, great, but many times the writer discovers how to put together a novel while writing that first one -- and the mistakes made are often times too great to easily overcome.

I know that my first novel-length manuscript was editing over and over again and I finally looked at it and decided it looked more like a plate of spaggetti than a book. I started a second novel and, eventually, went back and completely rewrote the first one -- turned out roughly infinity times better. Maybe even infinity+1 times better.


I am indeed a new writer, in the sence that this is my first attempt at something that will hopefully be published. I have however written several short stories for just myself and for some websites.

I have to say all of this comment was like a slap in the face. And I clearly need that.

I know now that I've been going at it the wrong way. And I have decided to just write the first novel, without going for a specific word count, and see where it ends up. I also realize it will ened lots of editing due to me not having that much experience.

For the moment I'm not going to put a full trilogy into a single novel, because the stories are too different to form a single coherent whole. There is only a few small ties between the stories in each trilogy, and putting it into one book still make it look like 3 seperate stories no matter how I try to mold them together into one.

[midwife]

Perhaps you could post a sample in SYW (if you haven't already). Maybe there are areas that could be fleshed out a bit more.

[Kay_XX]

Start writing the story. Even if it starts as bare bones, I'm pretty sure you'll be going off on a different tangents before long and then on second draft you'll be facing the problem of having to cut things. :)

Also, like someone said, show not tell. Takes a lot longer but should be worth it.

[Michael Dracon]

I'm still not completely sure what the difference is between show and tell. But I have seen several treads about it here and elsewhere, so I will have to look into those.

And right now I've decided to start from scratch. I already had that planned anyway because I swapped two personalities. As soon as I have something worth posting I'll think about putting it up for review by you all.

[Kay_XX]

I'm still not completely sure what the difference is between show and tell.

I was a bit puzzled by it too, but there's plenty of info on it here. Or you can try these links 1 (http://www.mariavsnyder.com/tips/showvstell.php), 2 (http://jerz.setonhill.edu/writing/creative/showing.htm), 3 (http://www.foremostpress.com/authors/articles/show_not_tell.html).

[Penguin Queen]

I am indeed a new writer, in the sence that this is my first attempt at something that will hopefully be published. I have however written several short stories for just myself and for some websites.

Now I really really do not want to sound like some old-timer talking about how When we was young, I had to walk to school barefoot through the snow five miles... :D

But several shortstories is not a lot in terms of writing experiences. There was a thread on here a while back about how many novels poeple had written before they got published, and I think the avarage came to about three. I'm 39 and Ive been in journalism for over 15 years (lucy, lucky, lucky break) and I've been writing fiction .. well, since I was about seven, but seriuos wanting-to-get-published-fictioin for over ten years. In that time I have produced two novels and, I dont know, 30 or so short stories. The first about ten of these were unpublisheable. Ive had my first short story published five years ago. My first book is coming out this year.

Of course with some poeple it doesnt take that much time, but I think they're probably more exception than rule. So by all means aim for publication, aim high, be ambitious. That's great and to be encouraged by all means. But... be prepared that it may take awhile.
I used to be complete pants at both plotting and character. I could do atmosphere really well, but that was it. So I wrote and wrote and wrote, and now, I have six plots clamoring in my head and I can write characters that are pretty good. I needed practice. I still need practice. Writing is great at teaching you how to write.

Someone else on here has said it:
Write, write, write, write, write, write, write. Thats the best way to learn it. :)

Originally Posted by Michael Dracon http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1290442#post1290442)
I'm still not completely sure what the difference is between show and tell.


Tell:
There was a noise on the stairs. She felt frightened.

Show:
Something rustled outside her door. On the stairs, she thought. Somebody on the stairs.
Her mouth was so dry it took her several attempts to swallow. Her heart thudded, and when she reached for the glass of water on the night stand, her hand shook.

[tjwriter]

I think you're going about things backwards. Novels don't begin with word count. They begin with characters, situations, plot, and, above all, story. Write your story. Use an outline if you must, but don't plan it as a trilogy. Plan it as a single story and divide it if you can't reasonably fit it into one book.

But, really, just write and write and write until "the end." Then see whatcha got. Honestly.


I'm with Caro here. Just write your story and see where you end up after you get all the words outta ya.

No joke. You know what you want to accomplish as you seem to have definite goals, so just write it, and learn some stuff here while you do.

Have you devoured Learn Writing with Uncle Jim yet? I believe there are some good discussions about showing v. telling in there. Best resource ever for someone wanting to start writing novels, IMHO.

[Michael Dracon]

Tell:
There was a noise on the stairs. She felt frightened.

Show:
Something rustled outside her door. On the stairs, she thought. Somebody on the stairs.
Her mouth was so dry it took her several attempts to swallow. Her heart thudded, and when she reached for the glass of water on the night stand, her hand shook.



Aha! I knew I should have read those show-don't-tell threads much earlier. I'm still telling too much and not showing enough.

Now I understand why my stuff is so short while established writers manage to spread it out so much.

The odd thing though is that my style was already described as 'very visual' by a few persons reading it. So I always assumed I did the show/tell thing right. Apparently not.


I also have to say that now that I am indeed stating over again I know what it's like to have to leave something behind and try again. I was always affraid of that and tried to avoid it. Now I see it's just another part of the process.

[Michael Dracon]

Have you devoured Learn Writing with Uncle Jim yet? I believe there are some good discussions about showing v. telling in there. Best resource ever for someone wanting to start writing novels, IMHO.

Good idea. I'm definitely going to read that as soon as possible.

[Prawn]

I'll give it a go. How about this:

Give the characters a problem to worry about. Have them talk to each other about it. Have it happen. Have them deal with it. Have it change them somehow.

We won't care about the world shaping cataclysmic events in book 6 unless we care about the characters and their problems from page 1.

[infinitus_kaze]

Aha! I knew I should have read those show-don't-tell threads much earlier. I'm still telling too much and not showing enough.

Now I understand why my stuff is so short while established writers manage to spread it out so much.

The odd thing though is that my style was already described as 'very visual' by a few persons reading it. So I always assumed I did the show/tell thing right. Apparently not.


I also have to say that now that I am indeed stating over again I know what it's like to have to leave something behind and try again. I was always affraid of that and tried to avoid it. Now I see it's just another part of the process.

Good luck. I'm sorry I was a little snooty yesterday. It was a long day and I was in a bad mood to begin with. Now you are finally understanding some of the important aspects of writing that you weren't before and I'm looking forward to seeing how you progress as a writer. Keep working on content and story without worrying about length and you'll be fine.

One thing I would add is don't listen to non-writers very often when they give you feedback because most of the time they don't know what they are talking about as in the case of "very visual" which you stated above.

[scarletpeaches]

Give one of your characters a stutter. That should stretch it out for a few pages.

[Shady Lane]

Give one of your characters a stutter. That should stretch it out for a few pages.

*Adds this to her nightmare sequence.*

[Penguin Queen]

<...>
One thing I would add is don't listen to non-writers very often when they give you feedback because most of the time they don't know what they are talking about as in the case of "very visual" which you stated above.


Well... yes and no. Most readers are non-writers. They dont need to now what they're talking about, and you cant expect them to come up with a thorough critique, but they will still now whether something is a good read or not.

I'd rather say, dont trust feedback from friends or family. Theyll certainly be biased and think that what you've written is just great, because you have written it. Which is very sweet, but not helpful. :)