Do you ask for your full back?

[scully931]

Hello,

Just wondering how many people include a large enough envelope for their requested full to be returned versus how many just put in a business size envelope for the rejection... I mean, response.

I've heard people mention that an agent who ultimately did not offer representation made markings, notes, etc. that were very helpful. You would miss out on that were you not to include a return for the manuscript.

Just curious. :)

[maestrowork]

Ugh... returning MS is a hassle for both the agent and the sender. Make it disposable as much as possible. Saves money and time.

[Scrawler]

Nah. I didn't want to pay the return postage- I figured buying a fresh ream of paper was much cheaper.

[herdon]

I don't ask for them returned. Any savings would be marginal (if anything) and it seems too much of a hassle. I suppose if I was really interested in savings I'd research how much it costs to get a few copies made at kinkos vs printing on my own vs paying return postage. But I'm lazy.

Nah. I didn't want to pay the return postage- I figured buying a fresh ream of paper was much cheaper.

Actually, the ink might cost ya more if you use an ink jet. Dang, those cartridges are expensive -- but I get my paper free by returning them to Office Depot for recycling.

[Jamesaritchie]

Yes, I always expect my full back, and I don't know of any agents or editors who mind returning it. But I don't use envelopes, I use these: http://www.papyrusplace.com/mailers.html

[AllieB]

I've never asked for one back (too expensive) and to be honest, I'm surprised that any agents would take the time to mark up a ms. they weren't interested in buying.

I've gotten a couple of very helpful rejection letters from agents, pointing out areas of concern, but I always just say in my cover letter, "Please recycle if this project does not meet your needs."

[C.bronco]

Yes, I always expect my full back, and I don't know of any agents or editors who mind returning it. But I don't use envelopes, I use these: http://www.papyrusplace.com/mailers.html
Wow, those are fancy!
I don't ask for my fulls to be returned. By the time I get it back, I've probably tinkered with my novel some more and it's obselete (serial editoral disorder).

[Julie Worth]

but I get my paper free by returning them to Office Depot for recycling.

You're getting ripped off! Do it yourself: refill your cartridges for a dollar's worth of ink.

[herdon]

You're getting ripped off! Do it yourself: refill your cartridges for a dollar's worth of ink.

Never tried that. I might have to google it cuz those cartidges are expensive. Wasn't so bad when one would last a year but if I do any amount of printing it empties pretty quick.

[Julie Worth]

Never tried that. I might have to google it cuz those cartidges are expensive. Wasn't so bad when one would last a year but if I do any amount of printing it empties pretty quick.

Here's one source: http://www.ink-refills-ink.com/Ink-Refills/

I've now gone 11 refills on a hp black cartridge, with no decline in print quality. (Which is about $200 in savings, more than the cost of the printer.)

[Novelhistorian]

With the new postal regulations in place for security reasons, packages weighing a pound or more have to be brought to a post office, not placed in a mail collection box. If your ms., with packaging, weighed less than that, I can see why you might want it back. But more and more, I'm noticing that agents mention this rule and ask to be spared a trip to the P.O.

But I don't like spending for paper and ink any more than anyone else, so I'm grateful for the links to the ink refills and mailers.

[job]

I have no idea whether agents write stuff on mss they ultimately reject.

If I were an agent and knew the ms were going to be returned I wouldn't write notes on it.

Ask Miss Snark maybe.

Other than that (remote and anecdotal?) possibility, I cannot imagine any use at all for a used ms.

I buy paper by the case. I refill cartidges.
It's cheap, if not cheaper, to reprint the ms rather than to mail it, even media mail rate.

[Jamesaritchie]

Wow, those are fancy!
I don't ask for my fulls to be returned. By the time I get it back, I've probably tinkered with my novel some more and it's obselete (serial editoral disorder).

That would be a problem. Once I have something ready to submit, I never tinker with it until and unless and agent or editor asks that something be changed.

[Jamesaritchie]

I've never asked for one back (too expensive) and to be honest, I'm surprised that any agents would take the time to mark up a ms. they weren't interested in buying.

I've gotten a couple of very helpful rejection letters from agents, pointing out areas of concern, but I always just say in my cover letter, "Please recycle if this project does not meet your needs."

An agent won;t mark up a manuscript she hates, but she will mark up one if she thinks, "This could be good with a few changes here and there."

[ccarver30]

Yeah, I am wondering WHY you would WANT it back...??

[Jamesaritchie]

I have an extremely good use for a returned manuscript. Put it back in the mail the moment it's returned with no fuss and no time for procrastination, or time taken away from another project. Screw expense. It doesn't cost me much, if any, more to have a manuscript returned than it does to print another copy, and if you add in the time factor, it's much cheaper.

In fairness, I'm not looking for random agents or editors with most work. If I were, I might not have a manuscript returned. But I think I still would because an agent or editor often will mark up a manuscript to show a writer possible changes. But they won't do this and then return the manuscript at their own expense.

I also gave up on refilling cartridges. The process never worked well for me, and it voids the warranty on most printers. My cartridges cost $19, and I can print two and a half average length novels with each. And I suspect most writers these days use laser jets, anyway.

But if I were going to refill cartridges, I think I'd take them to Staples and have it done, rather than doing it myself. (Do all Staples do this now, or is this a local thing?)

[Jamesaritchie]

With the new postal regulations in place for security reasons, packages weighing a pound or more have to be brought to a post office, not placed in a mail collection box. If your ms., with packaging, weighed less than that, I can see why you might want it back. But more and more, I'm noticing that agents mention this rule and ask to be spared a trip to the P.O.

But I don't like spending for paper and ink any more than anyone else, so I'm grateful for the links to the ink refills and mailers.


From my experience, most agent use a courier service for mail that has to be taken to the post office, so no trip by the agent is needed. And they do send many manuscripts back for a number of reasons.

Be careful of refiling cartridges yourself. It can work fine for a time, and then screw up your printer big time. If you want cheap, I think it's better to buy remanufactored cartridges, or have yours refilled by a professional source.

As for those mailing boxes, if you don't want the manuscript returned, you can buy the single box version. It's a lot easier and better than always looking around for something to stick a manuscript in. And they're extremely easy to handle and store on the agent's end.

[Scrawler]

Actually, the ink might cost ya more if you use an ink jet. Dang, those cartridges are expensive -- but I get my paper free by returning them to Office Depot for recycling.

I now use a laser printer. But when I used the ink jet, I had one of those refill kits with the hypodermic needle to inject fresh ink. ($5.99 at Big Lots) My 1 ink cartridge lasted longer than the printer. Though reading the above message, maybe doing so killed the printer? Well, it was a good 7 years.

[Jamesaritchie]

I now use a laser printer. But when I used the ink jet, I had one of those refill kits with the hypodermic needle to inject fresh ink. ($5.99 at Big Lots) My 1 ink cartridge lasted longer than the printer. Though reading the above message, maybe doing so killed the printer? Well, it was a good 7 years.

Sometimes refills work out well. But the one time they don't can ruin a printer instantly.

But if one of those $5.99 refills lasted you seven years, you don't print much. Even one of those kits seldom lasted me a month.

[historian]

I've often wondered if I might find nuggets of wisdom if I asked for my ms back.

James, you said you send out a returned ms immediately. What if there were comments from the last editor hidden in there, somewhere? Seems to me the new editor, like Ms Snark, would not be amused.

Does anyone get comments often enough to make the cost of rerturn postage worthwhile?

historian

[Jamesaritchie]

I've often wondered if I might find nuggets of wisdom if I asked for my ms back.

James, you said you send out a returned ms immediately. What if there were comments from the last editor hidden in there, somewhere? Seems to me the new editor, like Ms Snark, would not be amused.

Does anyone get comments often enough to make the cost of rerturn postage worthwhile?

historian

An agent or editor will normally only mark up a manuscript if she thinks the changes will make the manuscript acceptable to her. When this is the case, she'll say so in the letter she sends back with the manuscript. The mark up will never be hidden. When this happens, you do not send the manuscript out to a new agent or editor, you make the changes and send it back to her.

The thing is this. If there are no mark ups, no request for changes, then you send the manuscript back out immediately, and usually for less cost, and certainly with less effort, than printing a new copy. If there are markups and requests for changes, then you've just achieved something every new writer is seeking, which is advice and possible acceptance from an agent or editor.

I don't know how often new writers receive comments. Probably not often because your story and writing usually must be pretty good. Good enough, with a few changes, for an agent to take on, or an editor to buy. An agent or editor will usually take the time to mark up a manuscript only if they really like it, and see solid potential. So agents and editors reserve such work for manuscripts that are close to what they want, but that still need a bit of work.

Now, I'm probably not the best case to illustrate this because I've always had an agent, but I have never wanted an agent to touch one of my manuscripts in any way. But I do want editors to touch them, and I've had a fair number of editors go through a novel manuscript, mark the hell out of it, and then send it back to me through my agent and ask if I would be willing to make the changes.

I also handle my own shorter length fiction (With the exception of something short going to a market that's really only approachable by an agent), and I long ago lost count of how many short stories, novelettes, etc., came back full of editorial changes and requests for a rewrite of this or that. Sometimes the editor would simply go through with a slash and burn policy to get a story down to a length he could use, and ask if I could still write a smooth story with this much cut, and sometimes and editor would go trough and actually edit a story just as he would for publication, and sometimes the changes would just be notes all through the manuscript that suggested this or that.

I can only say this has always worked for me. But I can also say that even I am giving in to the trend of not asking for a manuscript to be returned because so many agents and publishers will accept a CD along with the hard copy, and if they really like the story, they make the changes on the e-version and return it, or they don't return manuscripts at all unless they're pretty sure they will want them after a rewrite, at which point they pay the freight.

But unless an agent or editor has some restriction about returning manuscripts, or accepts a CD along with the hard copy, I can't see where it harms anything or anyone to have it returned. Even if it should cost you a couple of bucks extra, so what? Don't you have enough confidence in your writing to invest a couple of extra bucks? Maybe having the manuscript returned will never pay off, but if it happens only once in twenty tries, doesn't this make all the times it didn't happen meaningless?

[Pamster]

Very interesting thread. Thanks for the link to the book mailers, that was a great site Jamesaritchie. Also I haven't thought about it, whether or not it's Politically correct to ask for fulls back. It sounds like it could go either way. Interesting stuff to think about. Glad to have stumbled across this thread. :)

[Julie Worth]

Sometimes refills work out well. But the one time they don't can ruin a printer instantly.


Are you using an antique printer? In most inkjets nowadays, the print-head is carried by the cartridge, so the very worst you can do is to ruin the cartridge, but that does nothing at all to the printer. And the savings of just a few refills will pay for the printer in any case.

[lostlore]

I've treated big mss. as disposable just because of the logistics, but having had one returned at an agent's expense the other day, I do see the value of getting it back. But if you're sending it out again, it won't be as crisp and clean as a fresh copy---I don't want an editor or agent to feel that they're getting sloppy seconds. I've seen this with stories and poems, where about a third of the time when they come back unmarked you can't send them out again anyway because they're so dogeared, or the masthead from the rejection slip has leaked on the paper, etc.

So what do you do, include a label and enough USPS return postage in your package?

I've been using FedEx to send out. Where USPS is over $12 for a big ms., FedEx Ground is half that, comes with insurance & tracking, and gets to NYC in less than 2 days if you're on the east coast.

[Scrawler]

But if one of those $5.99 refills lasted you seven years, you don't print much. Even one of those kits seldom lasted me a month.
No, sorry-- I meant my printer lasted 7 years. I refilled my ink almost monthly.

[Jamesaritchie]

Are you using an antique printer? In most inkjets nowadays, the print-head is carried by the cartridge, so the very worst you can do is to ruin the cartridge, but that does nothing at all to the printer. And the savings of just a few refills will pay for the printer in any case.

No, I have a brand new printer. The problem is that the print head is carried by the cartridge. Many new Canon printers have a separate print head, and this actually makes refilling easier, safer, and prevents the damage refills can cause.

The print heads carried on the cartridges were not intended to be used more than once, and much of the software for many printers resides within the cartridge itself. Sometimes cartridges just quit, and this is fine, but sometimes they screw up in a totally different way, and you can have severe software issues.

And sometimes refilled cartridges leak ink all over heck and gone, enough to essentially ruin a lower end printer. And just because a refill kit says it matches your printer does not mean the ink matches your printer. Most manufacturers use a formula that is all their own, and often secret.

I've only messed up one printer with refilled cartridges, and such events really are rare, but I've seen it happen often enough that the risk isn't worth it for me. Though it probably would be if I had a really cheap printer, and definitely would be if I owned any Lexmark. Comparable Lexmark cartridges are usually at least 25% more expensive than the ones for my HP, and hold about half as much ink.

For me, it really boils down to "really cheap printer, then use refills." "If you have a printer such as a Lexmark that charges a fortune for low capacity cartridges, then use refills." But I don't think it's ever a good idea to use refills in an expensive inkjet.

From what I've been told, it actually makes more sense to use refilled toner cartridges than inkjet cartridges. These really are re-manufactured, worn parts are replaced, and it's like getting a new toner cartridge for a fraction of the cost.

[Julie Worth]

The print heads carried on the cartridges were not intended to be used more than once, and much of the software for many printers resides within the cartridge itself.

Which cartridge has software?

[Elektra]

I recently bought a relatively cheap printer from Circuit City ($49.99 with rebate) that
a) prints faster than the laser printers they had
and
b) only costs $15 for a black ink refill (I've printed about 300 pages and still have 75% of the cartridge left).

If anyone's interested, it's this one: http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/HP-Photosmart-Printer-PS8250/sem/rpsm/oid/129339/catOid/-15501/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

[kg_crow]

At the risk of hijacking this thread, buying a laser printer these days is dang cheap. The cost of printing a page on a bubble jet is .35 to .50 each, and then there's the constant hassle of running to the store for refills.

The page printed on a laser jet is about .02 to .05 each. The quality of the printing is also far superior. The toner carts get 1000 +/- pages so I'm not spending time running to the store. The cost savings allows me to buy a better grade of paper, giving my presentation the best possible look and feel. Since we aren't there in person, our ms has to speak for itself so I want my presentation to be as good, (ie professional) as possible.

A comparason of laser printer prices:

http://shop.pcmag.com/pages/shop_search_results.aspx?keyword=Dell+Laser+Printe r+1720dn

I'm new at this game, so I have no opinion about requesting the return of mss, but if there's a chance to get an editor's opinion on my submission, it would be worth the expense.

Don't most publications say "if you want your ms returned, include a SASE"? If so, that would indicate that they are willing to do the work.

[Jamesaritchie]

At the risk of hijacking this thread, buying a laser printer these days is dang cheap. The cost of printing a page on a bubble jet is .35 to .50 each, and then there's the constant hassle of running to the store for refills.

The page printed on a laser jet is about .02 to .05 each. The quality of the printing is also far superior. The toner carts get 1000 +/- pages so I'm not spending time running to the store. The cost savings allows me to buy a better grade of paper, giving my presentation the best possible look and feel. Since we aren't there in person, our ms has to speak for itself so I want my presentation to be as good, (ie professional) as possible.

A comparason of laser printer prices:

http://shop.pcmag.com/pages/shop_search_results.aspx?keyword=Dell+Laser+Printe r+1720dn

I'm new at this game, so I have no opinion about requesting the return of mss, but if there's a chance to get an editor's opinion on my submission, it would be worth the expense.

Don't most publications say "if you want your ms returned, include a SASE"? If so, that would indicate that they are willing to do the work.

New inkjets aren't nearly as expensive to print with as they once were, and the quality has gone way, way up in just the last five or six years. I honestly see no difference in quality between laser and ink now. And it only costs me two cents per page to print a novel. I have no complaints there.

The only problem I have with my inkjet is speed . It takes almost half an hour to print a full novel, but each time this bothers me I think back to the dedicated word processor I used to have that took thirteen hours to print a novel.

But there's no doubt a laser is better than an inkjet, if you rarely have to print color. I do, however, have to print a lot of color, including photos, and a good, color laser is still too expensive for my blood. My inkjet cost as much as a monochrome laser printer, but nowhere near as much as a color laser.