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Bird of Prey
04-01-2007, 05:18 AM
Should apes have human rights?

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42741000/jpg/_42741407_gorilla_ap416.jpg

By Tom Geoghegan
BBC News Magazine
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/999999.gif

Apes and humans have common ancestors but should they have the same rights? An international movement to give them "personhood" is gathering pace.
What would Aristotle make of it? More than 2,000 years after the Greek philosopher declared Mother Nature had made all animals for the sake of man, there are moves to put the relationship on a more equal footing.
Judges in Austria are considering whether a British woman, Paula Stibbe, should become legal guardian of a chimpanzee called Hiasl which was abducted from its family tribe in West Africa 25 years ago.
The animal sanctuary where he has lived is about to close and to stop him being sold to a zoo, Ms Stibbe hopes that she can persuade the court he deserves the same protection as a child.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifAPES AND US
Gorillas, bonobos, orang-utans and chimps are great apes
Chimpanzees and bonobos differ from humans by only 1% of DNA and could accept a blood transfusion or a kidney
All great apes recognise themselves in a mirror
Elephants and dolphins show similar self-awareness
Great apes can learn and use human languages through signs or symbols but lack the vocal anatomy to master speech
Great apes have displayed love, fear, anxiety and jealousy
In 1997 the UK government banned experiments on great apes but not on primates such as marmosets and macaques

Sources: Ian Redmond, Charlotte Uhlenbroek
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

Chimps genetically close to humans (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3042781.stm)

Spanish MPs are also being urged to back a similar principle, one already endorsed by the Balearic parliament and held dear by the international organisation The Great Ape Project - that apes be granted the right to life, freedom and protection from torture. So should apes such as those at London Zoo, which opens its Gorilla Kingdom on Thursday complete with gym and climbing wall, get the same rights as their zookeepers? . . . .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6505691.stm

brokenfingers
04-01-2007, 05:30 AM
Should apes have human rights?
I say yes. Absolutely.Hmmm... maybe you should read a couple of articles detailing how they've gone crazy and became violent after awhile in captivity and attacked people with no provocation.

An ape is still an animal and ruled by its primal instincts. It's not capable of reasoning.

And how is her keeping it captive in her home different or better from captive with trained handlers?

Also, I find it kinda funny how people are so enthused to grant money, time and energy to apes yet there's no doubt a real live human being who can use the time, money and resources not far from them.

Just my thoughts.

tiny
04-01-2007, 05:54 AM
Protecting them against cruelty has little to do with granting them rights, in my opinion.

wordmonkey
04-01-2007, 06:04 AM
As resident forum primate, I am hurt by this.

Get your hands off me you damned dirty human.

BottomlessCup
04-01-2007, 06:13 AM
Freedom from torture, yes. All animals should be protected from cruelty.

I don't agree with the "life and freedom" part. It's impractical and I don't see how you could grant that freedom to apes and not to other animals.

tiny
04-01-2007, 07:02 AM
You just can't go giving them the rights of humans. They aren't humans. They are amazing creatures who should be protected against people who would take advantage or destroy, but granting them "rights" as a person is just not possible.

Perks
04-01-2007, 07:02 AM
If it has been determined that they are self-aware to the point we can assume that captivity is a great mental strain on them, then I have no problem with following that logical course.

As for adopting a chimpanzee, that's very dangerous. They can rip limbs from sockets if they're so disposed. It's not about rights in that case, it's about training and know-how.

Perks
04-01-2007, 07:09 AM
Well, if one moves in next door to me, my property values are sure to go down.

Shadow_Ferret
04-01-2007, 07:11 AM
Should apes have human rights?

No.

TsukiRyoko
04-01-2007, 07:13 AM
"Today an ape was charged with armed robbery, after being caught exitting a convenient store with a loaded .9 mm glock in one hand and a bag full of money in the other, as you can clearly see in the video footage. More at five-back to you, Jim."

Kentuk
04-01-2007, 07:49 AM
Yeah, give them voting rights and driving licenses. Let them take out loans and start business. Draft them into the military and promise them college educations.

Apes should have Ape rights which is more then they have now.

tiny
04-01-2007, 08:48 AM
Why not?


Because they aren't people. They shouldn't be abused, or killed, or tormented. But they also shouldn't be allowed to roam the streets, vote, buy a home. I mean come on, giving an animal rights as a human? It's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. They should be protected from humans, but not elevated (or lowered, your choice) to human status.

Haggis
04-01-2007, 08:53 AM
We could elect them to congress. It might help things out.

Sohia Rose
04-01-2007, 11:12 AM
Clearly they can't have human rights, but ape rights (as dog and cat rights) might be something to consider. I mean, how would they be represented by their peers in determining what's fit for them? Care to elaborate?

xhouseboy
04-01-2007, 04:46 PM
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/999999.gif

So should apes such as those at London Zoo, which opens its Gorilla Kingdom on Thursday complete with gym and climbing wall, get the same rights as their zookeepers? . . . .


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6505691.stm

I say yes. Absolutely.

So do I.

Just so long as they're also willing to obey the rules of the society that confers these rights on them. It could work, but we'd first have to sit down and hammer out the finer details with the gorilla delegates.

aadams73
04-01-2007, 05:00 PM
:Shrug: We let George Bush(both of them) become president, and he's a Buttmonkey. Of course they're not nearly as bright as apes.

xhouseboy
04-01-2007, 06:07 PM
You do realize that a gorilla has been able to speak in sign language?

Likewise chimps?

But would they all be willing to attend sign language classes? A fair few of them would probably start bunking off to hang around malls. The cops have got enough to do without rounding up delinquent gorillas and taking them back to school.

tourdeforce
04-01-2007, 06:35 PM
I think we should train apes to be household servants and to perform simple tasks.

For hygiene and modesty, we could outfit them all in red jumpsuits.

Sohia Rose
04-01-2007, 07:49 PM
You do realize that a gorilla has been able to speak in sign language?

Likewise chimps?


You do realize that some of that behavior is "mimicking," and not actually reasoning.

And I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't feel safe with a ape in the house around my cat.

robeiae
04-01-2007, 08:36 PM
I think we should train apes to be household servants and to perform simple tasks.

For hygiene and modesty, we could outfit them all in red jumpsuits.
They could choose their own names by opening a dictionary to a random page and pointing to a word.

I like it. It seems win-win.

aruna
04-01-2007, 08:40 PM
Oh. What a pity. I thought this was an April Fool thread.

davids
04-01-2007, 08:40 PM
Hmmm... maybe you should read a couple of articles detailing how they've gone crazy and became violent after awhile in captivity and attacked people with no provocation.

An ape is still an animal and ruled by its primal instincts. It's not capable of reasoning.

And how is her keeping it captive in her home different or better from captive with trained handlers?

Also, I find it kinda funny how people are so enthused to grant money, time and energy to apes yet there's no doubt a real live human being who can use the time, money and resources not far from them.

Just my thoughts.


Agree with the last paragraph-attacking people with no provocation-how similar we are!

Perks
04-01-2007, 08:44 PM
I'd argue that saddling them with "human rights" (rights always hand-in-hand with responsibilities and all) and subjecting them to years of "training" so that they can communicate with us is supremely arrogant. They quite obviously would have very little to do with us if left to their own devices.

This extreme is swerving into just a tad bit mental.

William Haskins
04-01-2007, 09:09 PM
we should do everything we can to provide a generous and sustainable habitat so that they can follow their normal course of existence.

anything beyond that opens the pandora's box of planet of the apes.

tourdeforce
04-01-2007, 10:09 PM
Should humans have ape rights?

Like the strongest, toughest guy gets to bang all the chicks in the group?

William Haskins
04-01-2007, 10:32 PM
when she's being sworn in, her freshly-manicured hand atop mao's 'little red book', you'll remember me getting in on the ground floor of this particular juggernaut.

William Haskins
04-01-2007, 11:14 PM
put your claws away. she's no goliath in my mind; she's our next president.

and quite beautiful, to boot.

MattW
04-02-2007, 04:19 PM
Congress will be considering the Simian Rights Ammendment later this year.

robeiae
04-02-2007, 05:18 PM
Ape shall never kill ape.

dclary
04-02-2007, 07:05 PM
An ape is not sentient. No.

C.bronco
04-02-2007, 07:22 PM
We have to protect our own interests; next thing you know they'll be taking all of our jobs.
http://www.mapaubingo.com/images/monkey1.jpg
http://www.finkbuilt.com/static/images/articles/monkey1.jpg
http://www.whiplashrides.com/monkey_dog_justin_chaps.jpg

C.bronco
04-02-2007, 07:49 PM
http://careerbuilder.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/monkeymail_image.jpg
http://images.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/_photos/2003-06-06-inside-monkey.jpg

... more evidence to reinforce my paranoia.
http://groundstate.ca/files/images/jailbreak%20monkey.bmp
as if our penal system does not have enough problems.

tourdeforce
04-02-2007, 08:08 PM
I do not support the right of apes to homeschool their children.

Jamesaritchie
04-02-2007, 09:23 PM
Should apes have human rights?

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42741000/jpg/_42741407_gorilla_ap416.jpg

By Tom Geoghegan
BBC News Magazine
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/999999.gif

Apes and humans have common ancestors but should they have the same rights? An international movement to give them "personhood" is gathering pace.
What would Aristotle make of it? More than 2,000 years after the Greek philosopher declared Mother Nature had made all animals for the sake of man, there are moves to put the relationship on a more equal footing.
Judges in Austria are considering whether a British woman, Paula Stibbe, should become legal guardian of a chimpanzee called Hiasl which was abducted from its family tribe in West Africa 25 years ago.
The animal sanctuary where he has lived is about to close and to stop him being sold to a zoo, Ms Stibbe hopes that she can persuade the court he deserves the same protection as a child.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifAPES AND US
Gorillas, bonobos, orang-utans and chimps are great apes
Chimpanzees and bonobos differ from humans by only 1% of DNA and could accept a blood transfusion or a kidney
All great apes recognise themselves in a mirror
Elephants and dolphins show similar self-awareness
Great apes can learn and use human languages through signs or symbols but lack the vocal anatomy to master speech
Great apes have displayed love, fear, anxiety and jealousy
In 1997 the UK government banned experiments on great apes but not on primates such as marmosets and macaques

Sources: Ian Redmond, Charlotte Uhlenbroek
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

Chimps genetically close to humans (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3042781.stm)

Spanish MPs are also being urged to back a similar principle, one already endorsed by the Balearic parliament and held dear by the international organisation The Great Ape Project - that apes be granted the right to life, freedom and protection from torture. So should apes such as those at London Zoo, which opens its Gorilla Kingdom on Thursday complete with gym and climbing wall, get the same rights as their zookeepers? . . . .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6505691.stm

I say yes. Absolutely.

Of course not. And most of these "facts" are not true. There's much disagreement over the 1%. The most respected study shows a nearly 5% difference. But even if the 1% is completely accurate, it means absolutely nothing unless you lack complete understanding of DNA and how it works.

1% might as well be 100%. It's roughly the difference between a gorilla and a pig. And in many ways, pigs are much closer to human in DNA than are chimps. People without a clue assume other animals must share only 1% with humans. Again, not true. Most animals are fairly close to humans on a percentage basis. Which, again, means nothing to anyone who understands even a tiny bit about DNA.

Close simply does not count. In the DNA world, there is no such thing as close. You either is or you ain't, and even a tiny fraction of 15 can literally mean the different between two animals no one would begin to compare, unless they look vaguely human.

I mean, for heaven's sake, there are South American parrots with larger vocabularies, and better understanding of sign language, than any ape, but airheads don't make a fuss over this because parrots do not look like people.

On the other hand, I think it can be safely said that apes, chimps, and parrots have higher IQs than a great many humans.

C.bronco
04-02-2007, 09:28 PM
Primates do use tools to collect food. I think one argument for our superiority was that humans use tools and other animals don't, but that certainly is not true.
This certainly makes the prospect of apes infiltrating the work force especially menacing to those who work in trades.

robeiae
04-02-2007, 09:40 PM
Especially IT people.

tourdeforce
04-02-2007, 09:41 PM
Flashforward 20 years:

Amazon.com user comments for "One Banana, Two Banana, Three Banana, Four", the first book written by an ape:

"On page 112, when Cocoa writes "hjds dhsjhj ieuri soic vmkeuwri free iufdsnnnw ijflwjke iweuijpo998", she is not just declaring freedom for herself, she is declaring freedom for the human race as it steps beyond the confines of its fascist evolutionary supremacy and accepts primates as its sister..."

aruna
04-02-2007, 09:42 PM
We have to protect our own interests; next thing you know they'll be taking all of our jobs.


And writing our books! And screenplays! Fellas, we got to stop this takeover!

C.bronco
04-02-2007, 09:54 PM
What if they do our jobs better than we do? Can you see where this is heading? I don't want anyone calling me Bright Eyes.

aruna
04-02-2007, 09:57 PM
And when they start marrying our daughters that's when the fun ends.

tourdeforce
04-02-2007, 10:02 PM
What if they do our jobs better than we do? Can you see where this is heading?


"Our top story tonight... President Magilla successfuly finalized the plans for the extracation of American troops from Iraq, thirty years after George Bush initially invaded the country..."

C.bronco
04-02-2007, 10:03 PM
But do you think they'd have any objections to teaching evolution in our schools?

SC Harrison
04-02-2007, 10:03 PM
Primates do use tools to collect food. I think one argument for our superiority was that humans use tools and other animals don't, but that certainly is not true.
This certainly makes the prospect of apes infiltrating the work force especially menacing to those who work in trades.

Since I'm basically an idiot, they could take my job away from me in a heartbeat. If one does, I hope he/she doesn't make too many changes. I'm a creature of habit.

C.bronco
04-02-2007, 10:16 PM
I think monkeys are capable of up to middle management, but I could be underestimating their abilities.
It's ironic that, just this morning I said that someone was making a big deal about a task that a monkey could do. I'd better be more careful so that I don't offend those who, in the future, could be my employers.

Kate Thornton
04-02-2007, 10:20 PM
Please read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn.

It gave me a different perspective on this question.

tourdeforce
04-02-2007, 10:26 PM
Lets see a monkey figure out a "PC Load Letter" error on a copy machine.

C.bronco
04-02-2007, 10:35 PM
Please read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn.

It gave me a different perspective on this question.
Now I'm really curious. What is the premise?

dclary
04-02-2007, 10:53 PM
Lets see a monkey figure out a "PC Load Letter" error on a copy machine.

Why does it say paper jam when there is no paper jam?!

C.bronco
04-02-2007, 10:56 PM
It's asking for paper jam. My copier asks for paper jelly.

pconsidine
04-02-2007, 10:58 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael_(novel)

This quote from the article struck me: You may compete to the full extent of your capabilities, but you may not hunt down competitors or destroy their food or deny them access to food. In other words, you may compete but you may not wage war." All species inevitably follow this law, or as a consequence go extinct. I'd have to research this a little more, but I was pretty sure there was evidence of chimpanzees waging war on each other.

Hmmm...

robeiae
04-02-2007, 10:59 PM
What is the difference between jam, jelly, preserves, and marmalade?

Robert Toy
04-02-2007, 11:06 PM
What is the difference between jam, jelly, preserves, and marmalade?
Aside from them being all jellied products?

· Jams are thick, sweet spreads, which will hold their shape, but are less firm than jelly. They are made from crushed or chopped fruits and sugar.
· Conserves are jams made from a mixture of fruits, especially when they include citrus fruits, nuts, raisins or coconut.
· Preserves are made of small, whole fruits or uniform-size pieces of fruits in a clear, thick, slightly jellied syrup.
· Marmalades often contain citrus fruits and are soft fruit jellies containing small pieces of fruit or peel, evenly suspended in the transparent jelly.


I know - there always has to be one!

SC Harrison
04-03-2007, 12:15 AM
Aside from them being all jellied products?

I know - there always has to be one!

Geez, Robert. I never knew there was such a thing as a "Jelly Geek". :)

You're right, I'm just jealous. I was going to say something like, "It must be jelly 'cause jam don't shake like that! Dassright!"

Robert Toy
04-03-2007, 12:21 AM
Geez, Robert. I never knew there was such a thing as a "Jelly Geek". :)

You're right, I'm just jealous. I was going to say something like, "It must be jelly 'cause jam don't shake like that! Dassright!"
You know your in deep shit when being called a “Jelly Geek”, is the best thing anyone has said about you.

icerose
04-03-2007, 12:50 AM
This has to be the weirdest thread ever...

whistlelock
04-03-2007, 12:59 AM
No. Because they lack the Human part in Human Rights.

MattW
04-03-2007, 01:02 AM
Aliens from Omicon Persei 8 declare "Human Rights"' offensive and discriminatory to non-humans.

NeuroFizz
04-03-2007, 01:46 AM
All great apes are hereby warned to avoid engaging in simiopomorphism. Such assignment of simian traits to humans is scientifically inappropriate and portrays humans in ways that cannot be reconciled based on their inferior primate status.

tourdeforce
04-03-2007, 01:56 AM
And if we let gorillas start messageboards, do we make chimps the moderators because they are smarter?

And if we let chimps start up nightclubs, do we make apes the bouncers becuase they are tougher?

And do we end up treating orangutans as the red headed stepchildren of the monkey world?

dclary
04-03-2007, 02:02 AM
By the way, it's idiots like the people supporting these rights that make me proud to be a racist. I AM a racist. The Human Race is the bestest, and deserves more rights than Monkeys, Vulcans and even Dolphins.

I would support a bill of sentient rights, with the only criteria for being qualified as sentient is that a member of your race must argue the reason why you should be included in a court of law, before a jury of other sentients.

However, as a racist, I would always tend to side on behalf of Humans in race-on-race disputes.

dclary
04-03-2007, 02:02 AM
And if we let gorillas start messageboards, do we make chimps the moderators because they are smarter?

And if we let chimps start up nightclubs, do we make apes the bouncers becuase they are tougher?

And do we end up treating orangutans as the red headed stepchildren of the monkey world?

quit monkeying around you big ape.

SC Harrison
04-03-2007, 03:44 AM
I would support a bill of sentient rights, with the only criteria for being qualified as sentient is that a member of your race must argue the reason why you should be included in a court of law, before a jury of other sentients.



I was under the impression that the only qualifications for being considered "sentient" are: a) you must be aware of your own mortality, and b) you provide succour to the aged and infirm of your species.

If that's true, you couldn't do this in a courtroom because nearly all of the lawyers would have to recuse themselves. :)

aruna
04-03-2007, 09:29 AM
Here's a member of my own family...

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h266/arunadasi/Family/orangutan.jpg

dclary
04-03-2007, 09:36 AM
I was under the impression that the only qualifications for being considered "sentient" are: a) you must be aware of your own mortality, and b) you provide succour to the aged and infirm of your species.

If that's true, you couldn't do this in a courtroom because nearly all of the lawyers would have to recuse themselves. :)

Yeah, I never heard that definition, and it's a load of bunk. Defend your race intelligently, with language and forethought. That's sentience.

dclary
04-03-2007, 09:36 AM
Here's a member of my own family...

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h266/arunadasi/Family/orangutan.jpg

At the risk of negative RPs...

Which one is related? :p

aruna
04-03-2007, 09:50 AM
At the risk of negative RPs...

Which one is related? :p


Don't you remember my old avatar? That's a clue....

dclary
04-03-2007, 11:25 AM
Don't you remember my old avatar? That's a clue....

Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. Of course! The resemblence is right there! :D

aruna
04-03-2007, 11:57 AM
Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. Of course! The resemblence is right there! :D

Yes. You had me worried for a while.;)

oswann
04-03-2007, 01:03 PM
I'm not sure if this has been said in thread or not or if everyone has just been pulling out their ten cent jokes using the word monkey, but I think there are millions of people who have less rights than the average zoo monkey. I know all problems are important in their own context but I just can't bring myself to eeking up an emotion over this one.

Os.

Steve W
04-03-2007, 09:38 PM
Yes.

Humans abuse everything they possibly can purely to satisfy their own animal urges - until we rise above that, why should other animals be forced to suffer just because we have a monopoly on power and cruelty at this stage of planetary evolution.

And on a lighter note, Happy Easter!

Steve

C.bronco
04-03-2007, 09:54 PM
Anyone who has a beloved pet begins to treat it like a family member, but I'll be danged if you charge me with manslaughter if I accidentally run over Fluffy on a dark, rainy night! Checkers will not be eligible for enrollment in public school, and Spot is not going to contact the ACLU when he gets in trouble for pooping in the driveway because he wants to be free to express himself!
We may be goofy, but we're just exploring the ramifications of an unconventional (note my gift for euphemism) claim.

TheGaffer
04-03-2007, 10:18 PM
Should apes have human rights?

No.

This has been another edition of TheGaffer's simple answers to simple questions.

dclary
04-03-2007, 10:24 PM
You are a breath of fresh air, sir.

C.bronco
04-03-2007, 10:27 PM
Yes, but now I can't prattle on about how devastating monkey rights would be to the human workforce.

NeuroFizz
04-03-2007, 10:38 PM
Yes.

Humans abuse everything they possibly can purely to satisfy their own animal urges - until we rise above that, why should other animals be forced to suffer just because we have a monopoly on power and cruelty at this stage of planetary evolution.

And on a lighter note, Happy Easter!

Steve
Do you include in this view bovines, chickens, broccoli and asparagas (and the like)? One animal urge = eating.

oswann
04-04-2007, 09:35 AM
Do you include in this view bovines, chickens, broccoli and asparagas (and the like)? One animal urge = eating.

Of course, I have very serious concerns when it comes to broccoli. Broccoli rights now!

Os.

tourdeforce
04-04-2007, 03:47 PM
I don't know about human rights but I do hope they are granted boxing licenses because the only thing funnier than chimps duking it out is cats boxing.

JimmyB27
04-04-2007, 04:10 PM
By the way, it's idiots like the people supporting these rights that make me proud to be a racist. I AM a racist. The Human Race is the bestest, and deserves more rights than Monkeys, Vulcans and even Dolphins.

I would support a bill of sentient rights, with the only criteria for being qualified as sentient is that a member of your race must argue the reason why you should be included in a court of law, before a jury of other sentients.

However, as a racist, I would always tend to side on behalf of Humans in race-on-race disputes.

So where do you get the first jury from?

dclary
04-04-2007, 08:55 PM
So where do you get the first jury from?

We use humans as the baseline for sentience until other sentient races can be admitted.