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Kathleen42
09-19-2011, 05:38 AM
What Alex said :) Here's the wikipedia summary for that ep: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Curse_of_Fenric

Although Seven being, well Seven, is a bit crueler about it. He even manages to make Ace cry.

LauraAnnSwanson
09-19-2011, 06:52 AM
Omg, this thread is too hard to read on an iPad, rofl!,

Netz
09-19-2011, 02:00 PM
Thanks, Alex and Kathleen. :) I know I would have watched it, but I don't remember it at all from the summary.

Grrarrgh
09-19-2011, 07:41 PM
Omg, this thread is too hard to read on an iPad, rofl!,

I've given up even trying. I just wait until I can get to a desktop or laptop. :)

dragonjax
09-21-2011, 08:21 PM
And Amy hasn't helped. I gave her a chance because I didn't like Donna at first. But she really grew on me. The relationship between her and DT was great. But I just don't feel the relationship between 11 and Amy.

This. This, exactly. I started out loathing Donna, and she wound up becoming my favorite companion. Maybe that's partially because there's no question that there was never any sexual tension between the Doctor and Donna -- they truly were companions.

Alessandra Kelley
09-22-2011, 03:34 AM
I can't read it on my Android phone, either. Sigh. Darn spoiler font.

Actually I just figured out how I could. If I press "quote" on each message I'll get the code. All I have to do is press each spoilered message, read it, then unquote it and go to the next one.

My gods, that's convoluted.

Max Vaehling
09-22-2011, 03:27 PM
Am the only person in the world who likes Amy?

Absolutely not. Seriously, I don't get all the Amy hate in this thread.

But I got used to my perception of the companions being the exact opposites of other people's. For example, I loved Donna in The Runaway Bride but was a bit underwhelmed when she became a regular. A lot of people here seem to have had the opposite reaction to her.

Max Vaehling
09-22-2011, 03:31 PM
That said, I really liked the latest episode, including the resolution. Looking forward to seeing how it all develops from there. Although I gotta ask: Why now? The minotaur wasn't much more dangerous than the Weeping Angels or the Silence.

Next time, Craig and Sophie are back. Anybody agree that Craig would make a good companion?

Alessandra Kelley
09-22-2011, 07:01 PM
Oh, but I like Amy too. I think she's a dear!

To be sure, I didn't like Donna much in the Runaway Bride and warmed to her over season.

We've finally let our youngest watch, with careful nightmare counselling. Seeing all the new episodes in rapid succession gives a different view of the flow of the story.

But goodness, I dislike Rose with her Mary-Sue isn't-she-wonderful jealous snarky mean self-absorbed self-pitying diva personality right to the end.

willietheshakes
09-22-2011, 08:55 PM
I like her. I just wish we'd see the Doctor a bit more.

This episode somehow reminded me of a Depeche Mode video. Can't quite explain why...they just have a similar flavor.

The second half of this season is not quite hitting all the cylinders for me. Certainly, there are bits and pieces I love. But it doesn't seem quite as fulfilling as the previous season or even the first half of this season. Oh well...let's see what the last two have in store!

It's the opposite for me - this post-hiatus run is, in my opinion, far stronger than the first half.

BunnyMaz
09-22-2011, 09:02 PM
Ugh. The next episode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closing_Time_%28Doctor_Who%29) is going to go back to James Corden's character. Pleasepleaseplease don't make him the next companion. Please. He plays the same bloody character in everything he is in and it is NEVER. FUNNY.

Calla Lily
09-22-2011, 09:06 PM
Bunny, can you rep me who that is? Or white it out here? I'm drawing a total blank.

ETA: Thanks, Kathleen.

Ew. Hate weak whiny characters. Hate.

AlexPiper
09-22-2011, 10:44 PM
I dislike Rose with her Mary-Sue isn't-she-wonderful jealous snarky mean self-absorbed self-pitying diva personality right to the end.
Ironically, you just summed up why I hate Amy so much. From moment one seems to have been written as "Look at how SPESHUL she is! The Doctor was so taken with her in the throes of regeneration that he's imprinted on her like a baby bird! Everywhere in the universe we go, people either love Amy or want to possess/use her!" We've never been given a real /reason/ for why everyone loves Amy and why she's so special and so on. She's, quite frankly, the worst Mary Sue I've ever seen on a professionally-made television program.

I admit, mind you, a non-zero amount of my Amy hatred almost certainly stems from that horrible opening they slap on the show for the American audiences, where they frame the show as being less Doctor Who and more Sexy Amy's Amazing Adventures through the Universe With a Crazy Imaginary Alien Friend From Her Childhood (And Her Husband, But We Won't Bother To Mention Him In This Voiceover).

Calla Lily
09-22-2011, 10:54 PM
I admit, mind you, a non-zero amount of my Amy hatred almost certainly stems from that horrible opening they slap on the show for the American audiences, where they frame the show as being less Doctor Who and more Sexy Amy's Amazing Adventures through the Universe With a Crazy Imaginary Alien Friend From Her Childhood (And Her Husband, But We Won't Bother To Mention Him In This Voiceover).

+11111111111111111111111

Alessandra Kelley
09-22-2011, 10:56 PM
Ironically, you just summed up why I hate Amy so much. From moment one seems to have been written as "Look at how SPESHUL she is! The Doctor was so taken with her in the throes of regeneration that he's imprinted on her like a baby bird! Everywhere in the universe we go, people either love Amy or want to possess/use her!" We've never been given a real /reason/ for why everyone loves Amy and why she's so special and so on. She's, quite frankly, the worst Mary Sue I've ever seen on a professionally-made television program.

I admit, mind you, a non-zero amount of my Amy hatred almost certainly stems from that horrible opening they slap on the show for the American audiences, where they frame the show as being less Doctor Who and more Sexy Amy's Amazing Adventures through the Universe With a Crazy Imaginary Alien Friend From Her Childhood (And Her Husband, But We Won't Bother To Mention Him In This Voiceover).

Good grief -- total agreement with your characterization of that voiceover, and now I'm insulted as well. It's just for Americans? Gosh, thanks, could you be any more condescending? (Er ... "you" meaning the BBC, not, y'know, you.)

And hm, yeah, good points about Amy. Maybe it's that I like her sense of humor, maybe she looks better in the context of River and Rory. Maybe it's that when she was thoughtless about Rory she got over it, whereas Rose was always a Mean Girl to poor Mickey, even when she was jealous of his seeing other girls. Rose was sorrowful at Rory's ... er ... absence, but she wasn't a blubbering, self-pitying whiner like Rose.

mirandashell
09-22-2011, 11:28 PM
I didn't realise they did the voiceover every single week in America.....

No wonder you dislike her so much! LOL!

mirandashell
09-22-2011, 11:29 PM
And I don't mind James Corden but I really don't want him to be the new companion.

Alessandra Kelley
09-23-2011, 01:48 AM
I didn't realise they did the voiceover every single week in America.....

No wonder you dislike her so much! LOL!

Every. Single. Week.

(Except that one time.)

So you've seen the blasted twee voiceover in the UK?

I like Amy, but ... blegh.

mirandashell
09-23-2011, 02:20 AM
Errmmm I'm not sure. We had 'a' voice over a couple of times when she first started but I don't remember it after that.

AlexPiper
09-23-2011, 04:04 AM
Rose was always a Mean Girl to poor Mickey, even when she was jealous of his seeing other girls.
Oh, this I grant you. Rose was hardly perfect as an individual!

That said, as much as her treatment of Mickey annoyed me as a character, I also thought that was fairly true to what might really happen. I mean, Mickey had no real goals in life to speak of, and suddenly Rose was traveling with someone who showed her the entire universe. How could he compare? It's not surprising that Rose suddenly felt she was being limited by that relationship, whether or not it was fair to Mickey. (And no, it wasn't.)

But you can feel his bitterness over the fact that when Rose is sent back from the confrontation with the Daleks, instead of settling in for a normal life with Mickey and her mom she's determined to get back and help Doc somehow. Her careless dismissal of that entire life visibly hurts Mickey... and yet, can you completely blame her? If someone's shown you the universe, and now you're being asked to stand aside and let him die and just go back to a quiet life of, as she put it, 'eating chips and being a shop girl,' that would probably be a fairly bitter pill to swallow.

Either way, I thought that all demonstrated very effectively how much of a bull in a china shop Doc is with his companions' lives. A theme revisited to great effect in School Reunion when Sarah Jane confronts him over never coming back for her.

And I think Mickey's character development really relied on Rose giving him the brush-off. First, he has his eyes opened to the world around him, and starts to take initiative in looking at things; in School Reunion, he's the one who calls them about odd events he's seen. Then, afraid of losing Rose and jealous of her closeness to Doc, he asks to travel in the TARDIS as well. (Even though Rose doesn't like the idea.) While traveling, he sort of comes into his own a bit more... without Rose jilting Mickey, I can't see him as the competent individual he becomes, much less ending up where he does in the end! (I did rather like that little cameo at the end of Tennant's final appearance.)

Either way, I found Rose less of a Mary Sue than I do Amy. Which, as noted, may be in large part due to the aforementioned Horrible Voiceover turning Amy into the star of the series that we get every single episode in the US.

dragonjax
09-23-2011, 07:19 PM
Either way, I found Rose less of a Mary Sue than I do Amy. Which, as noted, may be in large part due to the aforementioned Horrible Voiceover turning Amy into the star of the series that we get every single episode in the US.

Agreed with everything. Absolutely everything. I'm sure part of why I despise Amy is due to the horrific It's The Amy Pond Hour voiceover. Because truly, I think the actress is terrific. ("The Girl Who Waited" was quite remarkable in displaying her acting chops.) But I loathe, loathe, LOATHE the character.

vfury
09-23-2011, 07:24 PM
I, er, accidentally spoiled myself (read: couldn't stop myself from clicking the link) with promo pics from next week's episode, and... I want it now. That is all. :D

Nakhlasmoke
09-23-2011, 07:42 PM
wow I have never heard that voice over and I am thankful.

AlexPiper
09-23-2011, 10:54 PM
wow I have never heard that voice over and I am thankful.

Here's the voiceover, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L4dJ8n64HE) for those who don't understand the depth of loathing for Amy this inspires. I should note that this is used for international broadcast of the show in America and Australia at least, but I don't know if it's used in Canada or not. The link is to the Australian version, because all of the US ones I found offhand had crappy audio.

For those who can't bring themselves to watch it, you see various images of Amy and Doc's early meetings and then some from later adventures, with Amy voicing over: When I was a little girl, I had an imaginary friend. And when I grew up, he came back. He’s called the Doctor. He comes from somewhere else. He’s got a box called the TARDIS that’s bigger on the inside and can travel anywhere in time and space. I ran away with him, and we’ve been running ever since!

mirandashell
09-23-2011, 10:57 PM
You get that every single week?

I would definitely have stopped watching by now....

Parametric
09-23-2011, 11:04 PM
Can't say the voiceover outrages me all that much.

AlexPiper
09-23-2011, 11:05 PM
You get that every single week?

Yes. Every single week. This may help to clarify why many of us American viewers who were existing Who fans loathe Amy as a character. It makes the show sound like Amy Pond's Adventure Hour With Her Imaginary Friend, which probably is a large part of why some of us are predisposed to see her as a Mary Sue character.

One thing I really liked about the new series was that, in many ways, it was about the Doctor himself. Not his adventures (as the classic series was), and not the companions directly... but about Doc more directly. How he's affected those who travel with him (School Reunion is particularly poignant here), how the loss of his people and the realization that he's really and truly alone in the universe now has affected him. He's got more moments of darkness than we've seen before, but also more moments of genuine grief and regret. ("I'm sorry. I'm so sorry...") The moment of joy on his face in 'The Doctor Dances' when he proclaims, "Everybody lives. Just this once... EVERYBODY LIVES!" is almost heartbreaking in a way, because it also brings home how much destruction and loss he's seen.

So one reason I dislike the voiceover so much is that it relegates the Doctor to a supporting role in Amy's Sexy Adventure Hour, or whatever they're trying to market the show as right now.

mirandashell
09-23-2011, 11:06 PM
Oh yes. It definitely does.

MrWrite
09-23-2011, 11:13 PM
Oh, this I grant you. Rose was hardly perfect as an individual!

That said, as much as her treatment of Mickey annoyed me as a character, I also thought that was fairly true to what might really happen. I mean, Mickey had no real goals in life to speak of, and suddenly Rose was traveling with someone who showed her the entire universe. How could he compare? It's not surprising that Rose suddenly felt she was being limited by that relationship, whether or not it was fair to Mickey. (And no, it wasn't.)

But you can feel his bitterness over the fact that when Rose is sent back from the confrontation with the Daleks, instead of settling in for a normal life with Mickey and her mom she's determined to get back and help Doc somehow. Her careless dismissal of that entire life visibly hurts Mickey... and yet, can you completely blame her? If someone's shown you the universe, and now you're being asked to stand aside and let him die and just go back to a quiet life of, as she put it, 'eating chips and being a shop girl,' that would probably be a fairly bitter pill to swallow.

Either way, I thought that all demonstrated very effectively how much of a bull in a china shop Doc is with his companions' lives. A theme revisited to great effect in School Reunion when Sarah Jane confronts him over never coming back for her.

And I think Mickey's character development really relied on Rose giving him the brush-off. First, he has his eyes opened to the world around him, and starts to take initiative in looking at things; in School Reunion, he's the one who calls them about odd events he's seen. Then, afraid of losing Rose and jealous of her closeness to Doc, he asks to travel in the TARDIS as well. (Even though Rose doesn't like the idea.) While traveling, he sort of comes into his own a bit more... without Rose jilting Mickey, I can't see him as the competent individual he becomes, much less ending up where he does in the end! (I did rather like that little cameo at the end of Tennant's final appearance.)

Either way, I found Rose less of a Mary Sue than I do Amy. Which, as noted, may be in large part due to the aforementioned Horrible Voiceover turning Amy into the star of the series that we get every single episode in the US.

I agree with everything you said about Rose. Especially the bit I bolded. It is it fair? Of course not. But whose head wouldn't be turned by experiences like that?

And yes, the voiceover is extremely annoying. I hope they drop it now that Amy and Rory have left. I was hoping there would be some attempt to explain this annoying opening. Something that would occur in the series to show why he's concentrating so much on drawing attention to Amy.

mirandashell
09-23-2011, 11:14 PM
He's in love?

MrWrite
09-23-2011, 11:24 PM
He sure seems to be. I wonder why they're leaving anyway. Surely there are storylines that are unresolved. Though I've heard they're coming back a few times next season. I have no idea if Amy will be in again for the rest of this season. Maybe if she isn't, they'll give that voiceover a rest!

that redhead
09-24-2011, 12:03 AM
You get that every single week?

I would definitely have stopped watching by now....

Every time it comes on, my son yells at the tv. It's always various versions of "Americans can figure out the plot for themselves, and that's not even supposed to be the plot!" He's quite offended by it. I do think it's rather eye-rolling as well.

willietheshakes
09-24-2011, 12:11 AM
I'm astonished -- utterly, gobsmackingly astonished -- that anyone actually believes that Amy and Rory are gone.

AlexPiper
09-24-2011, 12:16 AM
I'm astonished -- utterly, gobsmackingly astonished -- that anyone actually believes that Amy and Rory are gone.
I'm not sure it's believes so much as fervently hopes.

mirandashell
09-24-2011, 12:19 AM
Definitely fervent hopes over here.....

BunnyMaz
09-24-2011, 12:32 AM
I dunno. I mean, Amy got more than a bit annoying for me, but I really liked Rory. I liked his no nonsense, straight man against the madcap doctor and Amy. His "man who waited" thing was great, because it showed that the non "special" character could do great things, too.

That said, Amy and Rory both got over losing her forced-pregnancy daughter way too quick. No, realising retrospectively that you actually sorta raised her/knew her after all does not count.

I would have liked to see more genuine grief from Rory over that, too, since he was always the one that wanted a family so much.

Calla Lily
09-24-2011, 12:36 AM
We hates the Moffatt, we does precious, oh yes we does.

I love Rory. I put up with Amy week to week because of Rory.

vfury
09-24-2011, 04:47 AM
Here's the voiceover, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L4dJ8n64HE) for those who don't understand the depth of loathing for Amy this inspires.

See, the way I saw this clip, Amy spends the whole time talking about how awesome the Doctor is. Not how awesome she is.

Ah well, I like Amy. *shrugs*

AlexPiper
09-24-2011, 05:01 AM
I love Rory.
Rory, I have no problem with. I actually like it when Doc has a companion now and then who'll call him on things; I considered that trait one of Tegan's good qualities (she did have some!) back in the classic series.

dragonjax
09-24-2011, 05:31 AM
The moment of joy on his face in 'The Doctor Dances' when he proclaims, "Everybody lives. Just this once... EVERYBODY LIVES!" is almost heartbreaking in a way, because it also brings home how much destruction and loss he's seen.

Yes. A thousand times yes. I cheered when Nine declared it. Poignant, magnificent...and so damn temporary.

Hmm. Before Eleven, did the writers push how "the Doctor lies"? I'm trying to remember that with Nine and Ten, and while of course he lied, it felt more along the lines of him being clever or brilliant or fantastic, not flat-out manipulative. Or am I just all starry-eyed from Eccleston and Tennant and completely misremembering?

Calla Lily
09-24-2011, 05:37 AM
Yes. A thousand times yes. I cheered when Nine declared it. Poignant, magnificent...and so damn temporary.

Hmm. Before Eleven, did the writers push how "the Doctor lies"? I'm trying to remember that with Nine and Ten, and while of course he lied, it felt more along the lines of him being clever or brilliant or fantastic, not flat-out manipulative. Or am I just all starry-eyed from Eccleston and Tennant and completely misremembering?

I've rewatched some of the earlier Whos (1-4) recently, and no, that wasn't quite as much in the forefront. Other characters saw the Doctor as inscrutable, frustrating, amusing, powerful, and brave--and also fallible. The companions tended to be a bit starry-eyed and also stubborn (Jo and Sarah Jane), stubborn and confused (Leela), and condescending at first (Romana). I didn't like 5 or 6, so I've only seen a couple of those eps.

IMO, the manipulative Doctor--and the way more human Doctor paired with the subtle emphasis on his godlike qualities--is a creation of the reboot that started with Eccleston.

dragonjax
09-24-2011, 06:04 AM
IMO, the manipulative Doctor--and the way more human Doctor paired with the subtle emphasis on his godlike qualities--is a creation of the reboot that started with Eccleston.

Thanks. I really have to watch more from the classic series. I've seen only The Three Doctors and City of Death.

QueenViv
09-24-2011, 07:21 AM
I'm astonished -- utterly, gobsmackingly astonished -- that anyone actually believes that Amy and Rory are gone.

Do you think they'll be regulars next season? I like them both (maybe I like Rory a bit more...) and I'd love to see them back for a another season.

About the voice over: we don't have them here in Brazil.We watch the episodes straight from BBC (through streaming and downloading since I don't think it is on TV). Is it an American thing? I imagine it would be annoying.

Kathleen42
09-24-2011, 07:35 AM
I dunno. I mean, Amy got more than a bit annoying for me, but I really liked Rory. I liked his no nonsense, straight man against the madcap doctor and Amy. His "man who waited" thing was great, because it showed that the non "special" character could do great things, too.

That said....

So totally agree with what you've said. Of all my problems this season, that one is the biggest.

And it really bothered me that Amy getting stranded in The Girl Who Waited ep was what it took for her and Rory to lose their faith in the Doctor and not what happened with Melody/River. Maybe that wouldn't have completely shattered their faith but there should have been obvious cracks.

Kathleen42
09-24-2011, 07:38 AM
IMO, the manipulative Doctor--and the way more human Doctor paired with the subtle emphasis on his godlike qualities--is a creation of the reboot that started with Eccleston.

The godlike thing is definitely RTD, I think. Seven could be kinda manipulative, though.

BigWords
09-24-2011, 07:59 AM
Before Eleven, did the writers push how "the Doctor lies"?

The seventh Doctor was manipulative, mean, prone to displaying megalomaniacal tendencies, and had a thing for setting up protracted gambits. The sixth Doctor was a jerkass of the highest order... But no - I can't seem to remember specific instances of "guess what - I lied" being used (I haven't got the discs out in a while, so it might be there all the same).

The godlike thing is definitely RTD, I think.

In a few of the Virgin novels from the 90s he acted as if he was "above such concerns" a few times - maybe that's where it started.

AlexPiper
09-24-2011, 08:18 AM
Yeah, I was going to say... Eleven pales in comparison to Seven in terms of manipulative behavior and 'godlike' qualities. However, Seven didn't display that much of a human side in a lot of his stories.

(Which is a little ironic, because Sylvester McCoy is a genuinely warm and funny human being -- he's come and done signings at the Science Fiction Museum here in Seattle, and even when exhausted and jet-lagged is a joy for fans to interact with.)

BigWords
09-24-2011, 08:33 AM
Yeah, I was going to say... Eleven pales in comparison to Seven in terms of manipulative behavior and 'godlike' qualities. However, Seven didn't display that much of a human side in a lot of his stories.

Moreso in the novels - the writers set up a lot of unresolved plots in the series (not surprisingly given the hostility to the show from Michael Grade), so the nastier elements were amplified in some of the books which compressed all the good stuff they didn't have time to get around to filming. The really, really awful behavior was reserved for the 'adult' line in the 90s where the stories got... strange.

Kathleen42
09-24-2011, 09:14 AM
Yeah, I was going to say... Eleven pales in comparison to Seven in terms of manipulative behavior and 'godlike' qualities. However, Seven didn't display that much of a human side in a lot of his stories.

(Which is a little ironic, because Sylvester McCoy is a genuinely warm and funny human being -- he's come and done signings at the Science Fiction Museum here in Seattle, and even when exhausted and jet-lagged is a joy for fans to interact with.)

Moreso in the novels - the writers set up a lot of unresolved plots in the series (not surprisingly given the hostility to the show from Michael Grade), so the nastier elements were amplified in some of the books which compressed all the good stuff they didn't have time to get around to filming. The really, really awful behavior was reserved for the 'adult' line in the 90s where the stories got... strange.

I'm just going by the TV show. Alas, I haven't read any of the books. Was that the decade when they introduced the whole idea of looming?

Seven did have flashes of warmth but he's very calculating in Curse of Fenric and borderline cruel to Ace in Ghost Light. I'm sure there must be other instances but I've only been able to rewatch a handful of Seven's turn.

Seven is one of my favorite Doctors. More than that, though, Sylvester McCoy and David Tennant are probably tied for my favorite off-screen Doctors. I just get the sense that they really loved the part and love the fandom surrounding it. That's something I appreciate.

AlexPiper
09-24-2011, 01:31 PM
I'm just going by the TV show. Alas, I haven't read any of the books. Was that the decade when they introduced the whole idea of looming?
The so-called "Cartmel Masterplan" intended to restore some mystery to the Doctor's origins, yes.

While I didn't care for large chunks of that concept, I have to give that era credit for a couple things. (Including one of the books using the idea from way back in the Tom Baker era that a Time Lord or Lady who willingly regenerated instead of doing so under duress could choose their own form, and having someone deliberately burn two regenerations in order to frame another Time Lord for murder.)

Seven did have flashes of warmth but he's very calculating in Curse of Fenric and borderline cruel to Ace in Ghost Light. I'm sure there must be other instances but I've only been able to rewatch a handful of Seven's turn.
I'd say he was borderline cruel to Ace in both!

Seven is one of my favorite Doctors. More than that, though, Sylvester McCoy and David Tennant are probably tied for my favorite off-screen Doctors. I just get the sense that they really loved the part and love the fandom surrounding it. That's something I appreciate.
Tennant's well-documented as having been a huge Who fan long before he played the role. (Heck, he has a recurring role in the Big Finish audio dramas as a guard on Gallifrey, because he apparently kept showing up at Big Finish back before the new series started -- when the audio dramas were the only Doctor Who acting still going on -- and going "I always wanted to be involved with Doctor Who, please please please let me have a part...")

The (almost certainly apocryphal) story I've heard told is that when Tennant got the role as the Doctor, they said, "Now, we can't pay you as much as Eccleston was asking," and Tennant jokingly replied, "Wait, you mean I get to play the Doctor and you'll pay me?"

Kathleen42
09-24-2011, 09:54 PM
Tennant's well-documented as having been a huge Who fan long before he played the role. (Heck, he has a recurring role in the Big Finish audio dramas as a guard on Gallifrey, because he apparently kept showing up at Big Finish back before the new series started -- when the audio dramas were the only Doctor Who acting still going on -- and going "I always wanted to be involved with Doctor Who, please please please let me have a part...")

The (almost certainly apocryphal) story I've heard told is that when Tennant got the role as the Doctor, they said, "Now, we can't pay you as much as Eccleston was asking," and Tennant jokingly replied, "Wait, you mean I get to play the Doctor and you'll pay me?"

Ooohhhh I didn't know about the Big Finish thing (I've only got a handful of the audios featuring Eight).

There's a bit in the video diaries on the series 2 DVDs where Tennant is just lying in bed, all excited, and still recording his diary. It just made me melt.

I loved Eccleston as the Doctor (Nine is actually my favorite) but offscreen? Not so much.

Parametric
09-25-2011, 12:29 AM
What is it about even the most capable female characters that makes them instantly incapacitated if anyone holds them by the upper arm? Is there a hidden off-switch there?

mirandashell
09-25-2011, 12:53 AM
Well.... I was really enjoying that until...spoiler: the soppy ending. Cybermen defeated by love? Purleese!

And the whole River Song thing was hardly a surprise, was it?

The dialogue made me laugh though. Especially: Don't worry, I've got an app for that.

dragonjax
09-25-2011, 12:59 AM
HEY -- I think I missed an episode! Was there a Christmas special with Amy and Rory's honeymoon? I'm positive I haven't seen that one...

mirandashell
09-25-2011, 01:01 AM
Yeah there was. That's when River was conceived.

AlexPiper
09-25-2011, 02:16 AM
As Miranda said, last Christmas' special -- "A Christmas Carol" -- was during Amy and Rory's honeymoon.

Calla Lily
09-25-2011, 02:53 AM
Oh, joy, The Cybermen. My least-favorite villains. Blargh. Bring back the Daleks, please. kthxbai. (JMO. YMMV.)

BunnyMaz
09-25-2011, 03:56 AM
Yeah, the Doctor really needs some new enemies. Not just the Cybermen, but for me the Daleks, too. He's defeated them so many times now, and some of the times he defeated them in the last couple of seasons he seemed so powerful, almost avatar-like, that there was no real tension for me. I never doubted he's manage it, and it never even felt like there was a need for genuine fear or concern.

I prefer the episodes where he's facing smaller, localised issues or more existential stuff purely because he's not facing the same old races over again.

And oh yeah, tonight's episode was cheesy as anything. The whole defeated-by-love was one thing, but did you notice that the doctor just shrugged out of the cyberman's grasp at that point? Also, the idea that anyone can defeat the cybermen's transformation sequence if they just want it bad enough kind of disrespects the thousands of people that lost their lives, including Rose's alt-universe mum, in previous episodes.

mirandashell
09-25-2011, 04:09 AM
I know, they've taken all of the fear out. Crap really.

dragonjax
09-25-2011, 05:35 AM
Yeah there was. That's when River was conceived.

Nuts. I hope it's on Netflix.

Calla Lily
09-25-2011, 07:18 AM
:rolleyes: Gag me at the bit that sounded like "Clap if you believe" from Peter Pan. And that he blew up the cybermen with love? Good Heavens.

The conversations with Alfie were delightful, though. They redeemed the episode. The Doctor's "I'm old and going to die" speeches were very good, though. Matt Smith can act, even when the script is less than stellar.

I have to say that I'll be glad next week when this season is over. Hopefully Moffat has the chops to tie up all the raggedy, convoluted, kitchen-sink threads he started this year into something coherent. And that next season, regardless of who the Companion is (and it ought to be River Song, because she's a great foil for Smith's Doctor) is less motion-sickness inducing.

/opinionated opinion

Shakesbear
09-25-2011, 11:20 AM
Totally agree with callalily61.

I've found this series like a magic jigsaw puzzle - pieces disappear and then reappear and it will never be complete.

firedrake
09-25-2011, 11:55 AM
I dunno about the season finale.
I have this horrible feeling it's going to make my brain hurt because it'll be so convoluted.

AlexPiper
09-25-2011, 12:20 PM
Okay. I'm confused by something here. The Cybermen used the design of the Cybus Cybermen -- the ones from the alternate universe -- rather than the classic series ones from Mondas (or... wherever, as opinions differ on the actual origin of our universe's Cybermen). Yet they had Mondas-style Cybermats (or at least one Cybermat, the little 'silver rat'), and a Mondas-style spaceship, as well as lacking the Cybus logo on the chestplate (having a different insert). So I'm very confused as to whether these were the Cybermen of our universe (and thus the first appearance of Mondas Cybermen in the new series, other than a Mondas helmet in the vault back in Dalek), or something weird and new with the Cybus ones.

I may also occasionally try to read too much into this series...

BigWords
09-25-2011, 04:05 PM
The look of the Cybermen is a constant source of pain for me. They're clunky and ugly, and it seems that (despite the upgrade / redesign of the Daleks) the Doctor Who producers have no idea of just how plasticky they look on a quality television screen - for villains who are meant to represent a serious threat, they haven't looked right at all in the current design.

Parametric
09-25-2011, 04:44 PM
And that next season, regardless of who the Companion is (and it ought to be River Song, because she's a great foil for Smith's Doctor) is less motion-sickness inducing.

If this happened, I would asplode from the joy.

Kathleen42
09-25-2011, 11:15 PM
I actually really liked this episode--or at least parts of it. Gareth Roberts sometimes gets a little carried away with the zany/cute banter but it did make me smile and I thought the envelopes and the hat were a nice touch.

But...

I hated the whole conversion can be defeated by love thing. I think it's partly RTD's fault in that Yvonne's wonky conversion opened up the possibility of emotions/loyalties surviving the conversion but this one still made me cringe. Also, I think this episode could have been done just as effectively with a new villain--maybe one who brainwashed or somehow infected people. The cybermen are supposed to be one of the big bads (I almost never re-watch the parallel world episodes from S2 because the conversion units freak me out so badly) and trotting them out and having them be so easily defeated just deflates them.

Parametric
09-25-2011, 11:29 PM
I did get a good laugh out of the Doctor confessing his deep and undying love to Craig. :tongue

Max Vaehling
09-27-2011, 01:39 AM
Got a lot of good laughs out of this one. Alfie's first word giveaway? Love it. Okay, cheesy resolution, but this ep wasn't about the Cybermen, they just filled in as feature creatures while the actual story about the Doctor meeting his fate was told.

Love the run-in with Amy and Rory, and seeing how Amy has moved on.

Looking forward to how they're ging to sort it all out next week. Did I see a hint in that one preview shot that the scary one-eyed lady is really an older River? Actually, I'd have assumed it would be an older Amy.

Max Vaehling
09-27-2011, 01:41 AM
What is it about even the most capable female characters that makes them instantly incapacitated if anyone holds them by the upper arm? Is there a hidden off-switch there?

Actually, there may be. Or rather, I once heard that women in Western culture (or people in general, I forgot, but somehow I think it was women) are hard-wired to be immediately calmed down by that gesture. Some culturally habituated instinct thing. Totally digging from old memory here, so don't ask me about the specifics or sources.

mirandashell
09-27-2011, 01:49 AM
Last bloke that grabbed me by the arms from behind got head butted......

Lillie
09-27-2011, 01:56 AM
Last bloke that grabbed me by the arms from behind got head butted......

And that is exactly how it should be :D

LauraAnnSwanson
09-27-2011, 03:00 AM
I'm glad I'm not the only one that was so confused after this epi.

And I don't think he's done with Amy yet for some reason, not that I am longing for her to stick around...

Lillie
09-27-2011, 03:17 AM
I like Amy. She's got balls.

mirandashell
09-27-2011, 03:27 AM
I like Amy. She's got balls.


Yeah. Rory's, usually.

Lillie
09-27-2011, 03:50 AM
:D

That's why I like her.

Rory's sweet, but he needs a strong woman to tell him what to do.

AlexPiper
09-27-2011, 04:20 AM
Yeah. Rory's, usually.
*rimshot* Thank you, she'll be here all week. Try the veal, and remember to tip your waiter.

mirandashell
09-27-2011, 04:24 AM
;)

dragonjax
09-27-2011, 09:24 PM
I sort of ignored the Big Bad for this last episode and simply enjoyed the insanely witty banter -- most especially between the Doctor and Alfie. Priceless!

mirandashell
10-02-2011, 12:37 AM
Well, that was .... meh.

Lillie
10-02-2011, 12:40 AM
Well, that was .... meh.
This ^

BigWords
10-02-2011, 12:55 AM
FWIW, the resolution has me hoping for better scripts soon. The line about The Doctor being less conspicuous has a lot of potential in it. It goes back to how the stories used to be, and makes me think of some of the Pertwee stories. I may be misguided in my hope for improvement, as I thought that this series would be a lot better than the last.

Calla Lily
10-02-2011, 07:37 AM
Not bad. First half hour was way too much talk, talk, talk. But overall I liked it.

DavidZahir
10-02-2011, 09:52 AM
I liked that! And yeah, looks like next season will be more like the old days, when not everyone had heard of the Doctor and he wasn't a god striding across the timelanes. The solution turned out to be pretty much precisely what I thought it'd be--and loved the first half, with all that wonderful wackiness and returning characters.

My favorite: SPOILERS "Pteradactyls are Pests DO NOT FEED THEM" :D Silly, I know, but still...

Calla Lily
10-02-2011, 09:15 PM
My favorite spoilery lines:

Amy to Rory, after he stays behind to kill lots of Silence before his eyepatch-link fries his brain, and she blows them away and saves his life: "We should go out for a drink."
Rory: "Yes."
Amy: "And get married."
Rory: "Okay."

Then, while River is emoting all over the top of the pyramid at the Doctor:
Rory to Amy: "I'm confused."
Amy: "In another reality we got married and and a kid, and she's it."
Rory: "...oh."

:roll:

Shakesbear
10-03-2011, 02:26 AM
Well, that was .... meh.


Totally agree.

Christine N.
10-03-2011, 05:34 AM
Christmas won't come fast enough!

Though, I thought it was perfectly obvious how the Doctor was going to get out of it...well, obvious after he talked to you-know-who.

And now it's also obvious what the question is. The first question, hidden in plain sight that must never be answered.

For those of us who have been following along for the past few seasons, we know there are TWO people in the universe who know the answer now.

Calla Lily
10-03-2011, 05:48 AM
Christine, I'm having a "duh" moment. Be kind and rep me the other one? Please?

Kathleen42
10-03-2011, 05:52 AM
Christine, I'm having a "duh" moment. Be kind and rep me the other one? Please?

Me too, please.

And I actually liked the episode. Not as good as the S1 & S2 finales but better than S3 & S4 (even though the Donna scene was so brilliant).

Thalia
10-03-2011, 05:57 AM
Umm... about the two people...

Isn't it Doctor and River?

BunnyMaz
10-03-2011, 06:35 AM
Umm... about the two people...

I think it is, but now I'm all plot-hole and misdirectiony. We were told she knew his name back from ages ago, but in the last episode where he claims to tell her his name, he tells her to look into his eye instead, so is it possible that particular event was changed? Or could it be that River-in-continuity doesn't know yet?

I'm also thinking that would be too obvious a solution to the "Doctor Who?" question. What his name is, isn't necessarily the same as who he is, if you see what I mean. I also wonder - why would he ask what his name is, since he already knows the answer presumably, and why would the mere mention of his name cause silence to fall?

Calla Lily
10-03-2011, 06:45 AM
I just came up with a totally off the wall reason for "when the question ("Doctor Who?") is answered, the Silence must fall": The Time Lords were never actually defeated in the last Dalek war: They had an escape plan in which they became the Silence. Since they historically kept behind the scenes when they were Time Lords, as the Silence that part of them turned to an extreme, and millennia of hiding and manipulating humans (just humans?) have warped them beyond repair, much like The Master. So, when the Doctor answers the question and announces his real name, perhaps it triggers the end of the escape plan (much like the pocket watch hid the truth when the Doctor hid as a human in The Family eps during the Martha series, and opening it revealed who the Doctor really was). Then the Silence reveal themselves, and acknowledge what they've become, and as a "religious order" they become un-brainwashed.

I said it was off the wall. :D

dragonjax
10-03-2011, 07:53 AM
I loved the episode. Loved it, and am looking forward to season 7.

Christine N.
10-03-2011, 03:10 PM
Bunny, yes, at THIS point I get you. However it's one of those things that MUST happen at some point. Since they are married, and DT's doctor said "there is only one reason I'd tell you my name, only one time I COULD" (which I had gleaned from that episode in the Library that they were 'more' than acquaintances), and it really was a turning point in...wait for it.... SILENCE in the Library (ha ha that's clever), it has to happen along the way.

Doctor said "Her days she'll be in prison, but her nights... well, that's between me and her." And we know she and he run off on all kinds of adventures while she's in the Storm Cage.

I also get where you're going with the question - but it's been such a HUGE secret, really the lynchpin secret of the whole series, it might just be that big.

Thalia
10-03-2011, 05:28 PM
I don't think they'd announce his name, because that might totally ruin the series. I mean, then it'd be over, right? 'Cause the whole point of the show is 'Doctor Who?' What happens if they answer it?

dragonjax
10-03-2011, 07:23 PM
What happens if they answer it?

Back from Tom Baker's run as Four, Time Lords and Ladies can regenerate only 12 times. However, thanks to Matt Smith's Eleven guest starring on an episode of The Sarah Jane Adventures, that theory was blown out of the water when the Doctor indicated that there is no limit to the number of regenerations. (See the article here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2010/oct/12/doctor-who-immortal-reveals-bbc).)

But what's the one thing that's been hit over our heads time and again with Eleven?

The Doctor lies.

At least, this version of the Doctor does. It's the first rule, according to River.

Speaking of whom... ((in best Alex Kingston voice, "Spoilers!")), River has already proven that TLs have a finite number of regenerations -- she burned up all of hers in "Let's Kill Hitler" to save the Doctor. ((Jackie resumes normal posting voice.))

So I'm willing to bet that the Doctor lied during that SJA episode (which I did not see). I'm thinking that especially with his number of regenerations running close to the end, he's going to want people to think he's immortal, even though he's not. (This ties in nicely with him deciding to get back off the radar, as he says at the end of "The Wedding of River Song" -- not only is this a hat-tip to the fans who want the Doctor to go back to being not the All Powerful Doctor that he's morphed into, but it also very nicely dovetails with him becoming protective of how increasingly vulnerable he's becoming. Maybe his near-death experience has shocked him into realizing that he will walk that path again, for real, when the time comes. Because the time will come.)

And I'm thinking that the Question alludes to the last run of DOCTOR WHO -- that is, the Twelfth and Thirteenth versions. If Moffat & Co are wise, they'll be planning an exit strategy while the show is strong, meaning they'll know how many seasons are left before ending it.

So there you go: my theory on What It All Means.

Thalia
10-03-2011, 10:35 PM
But the Doctor also has all of River's other regenerations (which, if 12 is correct, and she's only regenerated twice, is ten). And they've said before that Time Lords gain all the regenerations of Time Lord they kill or something like that, and the Doctor killed all of them. I just feel like they've been going through a significant amount of trouble to establish the Doctor's immortality...

...although that could be so they could add shock factor when he really dies. -shrugs-

mirandashell
10-03-2011, 10:38 PM
Spoilers, Thalia!

Thalia
10-03-2011, 10:40 PM
It still counts as spoilers for an episode aired two months ago in a thread titles "May Contain SPOILERS for current episodes"?

mirandashell
10-03-2011, 10:53 PM
Both you and Christine have talked about things that happened in the last episode.

And the accepted thing on this thread is to white-out any spoilery discussion. As everyone else has been doing.

Shakesbear
10-03-2011, 11:04 PM
It still counts as spoilers for an episode aired two months ago in a thread titles "May Contain SPOILERS for current episodes"?


I would say yes, it does count as a spoiler - not everyone has seen the episode you are talking about so it is a spoiler.

Sophia
10-03-2011, 11:07 PM
I enjoyed the finale, and I loved the scene on top of the pyramid. Rory was brilliant in this one, too. :)

Re the Silence must fall - I'd been interpreting "fall" to mean the Silence being brought down, rather than them achieving a goal of theirs in some way. My off-the-wall theory is that the Silence is something to do with the time lock around Gallifrey.

willietheshakes
10-04-2011, 01:02 AM
I would say yes, it does count as a spoiler - not everyone has seen the episode you are talking about so it is a spoiler.

I don't have a horse in this race, but surely there has to be some sort of parameter on this, no?

Otherwise we shouldn't be discussing the Baker years without spoiler tagging.

And God forbid someone let slip that the woman in The Crying Game isn't a woman.

AlexPiper
10-04-2011, 01:05 AM
Okay, brief digression: we know that how regeneration works is that a Time Lord has a sort of 'fuel tank' of regenerative energy, and they can use that energy to rebuild their body. However, it's generally a destructive action and forces a total rebuild of the body.

They have enough energy to safely regenerate -- completely -- twelve times. (Whole classic series.)
When not done under duress, regeneration is controllable. (Romana's regeneration, numerous elements in books.)
That energy can be replenished. Implication is that it requires the Eye of Harmony, however, since only the High Council could offer it. (Classic series. In specific, the High Council of Gallifrey tries to bribe the Master into doing their bidding by offering him this. Presumably they /did/ eventually pay him in this way to try and lure him back for the Time War, since we've seen the Master regenerate in the new series.)
During the first bit of time right after a regeneration, the energy is still active and the body can be rebuilt or the energy expended in other ways. (Christmas Invasion, when Ten regrows his hand. Also River using her regenerative energy offensively right after regeneration in Let's Kill Hitler this season.)
If you can offload the regenerative energy into another repository after the rebuild, you can avoid the destructive portion of regeneration. (Ten being shot by Daleks and sticking the excess energy in his previously-severed hand.)
You can cheat death in other ways; the Master is a freaking virtuoso at this one. He used the body of Nyssa's father to revitalize his own back in the classic series, when he was out of regenerations. (Never was clear whether that was possession or not, since he seemed to have the proper Time Lord two hearts later...) He also later transferred his consciousness into a parasite as a gambit to survive the execution of his own body; he was thus in a parasite controlling his own body, and when his body was destroyed the parasite would be able to take a new host. (In the books, with the payoff on that scheme in the TV movie.) And then he managed to pull off another 'back from the dead without regeneration' trick in the new series, though with some unfortunate side effects...

But we don't know:

If there's any way to still refill regenerative energy now that the Eye of Harmony is gone. (And it IS gone, we know that much; the TARDIS has to fuel on time rifts and can't punch through the walls between universes, since it can't just draw limitless energy from the Eye as it used to.)
If Ten's use of regenerative energy to save himself after being shot by Daleks used up a regeneration worth of energy (in which case, Eleven is technically his eleventh regeneration, not his tenth).
If Doc was offered a top-off on his regenerative energy by the High Council (a'la their attempts to bribe the Master) to lure him back to fight in the Time War. Since the Eye of Harmony was still around at the time, and all. To me, this actually seems fairly likely, and would make the regeneration from Eight to Nine his first regeneration of a new twelve.
If regenerative energy transferred from someone else would just rebuild or would otherwise refill the tank as it were.

In short, we don't know how many regenerations he has left even without twiddling with continuity. Could be as little as one (if Ten used up a regeneration when he was shot by the Daleks), or as many as nine (if Ten's energy didn't count as a whole regeneration and the High Council paid Eight for his war service with a refill of regenerative energy). And even if he /did/ run out, there's ways to end run around that limit that fit in canon without hand-wavery.

Note: I white-out anything as spoilery that has happened in the current season. I consider previous seasons or classic series not worth spoiler-blocking. :)

AlexPiper
10-04-2011, 01:26 AM
As for the finale... while there was some fun timey-wimey canonwank in there, as a whole it still feels to me like Moffat is writing fanfic: a lot of it is "wouldn't it be awesome if...!" but without proper build-up or explanation to that. Not even a tossed-off explanation.

Did the crew of the Tesseract sacrifice themselves? We saw Doc's body burn. How did Doc get out again afterwards? Maybe the TARDIS was in there, and he just loaded the crew on board and they all left, I dunno. Also, how did they fake the regeneration energy? Also, why the hell did the Silence put River in an Apollo astronaut suit? Was there any real logic to that buried somewhere that I missed? Etc.

And moreover, why should Doc's true name be so important? The only reason I can think of is if we're going back to the Cartmel Masterplan stuff and PLEASE NOT THAT. After all, several people know Doc's name. I'm not even counting the 'Theta Sigma' nickname he used in school at the Academy (though River clearly knows that one, too, since the inscription in Gallifreyan last season also had a Greek theta and sigma emblem for the address part); presumably all of the Deca knew each others names. Koschei (the Master), Ushas (the Rani), Drax, the Doctor, etc. (For those unfamiliar with it, the Deca were a group of young Time Lords at Prydon Academy who were sort of the Time Lord equivalent of the Marauders from Harry Potter. They're only hinted at in the series, when Drax and Doc talk, but the Deca are more fleshed out in the books.)

(Heck, the whole 'Doctor Who' thing in the title is really a reference to the first episodes, after all. Doc parks the TARDIS in the Foreman Scrapyard, and so Susan goes by 'Susan Foreman' when enrolling at the Coal Hill School. But when Ian addresses Doc as 'Doctor Foreman,' he turns around and irritably asks, "Eh? Doctor who?")

In short, while there's been a little bit of buildup over keeping his name secret, there's no real explanation as to why this is. Or whether it's unique to Doc or to all Time Lords, or what. Whether it's some kind of secret true real name and the Time Lord names we know (Romana, Drax, Borusa, Rassilon... if we get into the books, Koschei and Ushas and so on as well) are fake names. In which case, what's Doc's 'fake' name, since Theta Sigma was a nickname -- a predecessor to 'Doctor' rather than one like Borusa or whatever.

Still, I'm willing to admit there may be something more planned there, but in general, I still feel like Moffat wants to have Big Cool Stuff but doesn't want the work of getting there, so he just takes a shortcut and the Cool Stuff directly, expecting the audience to appreciate it. It's the problem I have with Amy, as I've said before -- he wants her to be Really Cool, but doesn't want the effort of actually doing the character development to get there. (River suffers from this somewhat, too, but it's lessened by the fact that her timeline is all wonky and we have callbacks to cool things she has done. It's still a handwave.)

In comparison, Rory -- who he didn't seem to want to write all cool from day one -- is actually much cooler than Amy, because he's earned his moments of cool. Think of Rory in 'A Good Man Goes to War,' when he shows up in his Centurion armor to confront the Cybermen and demand to know Amy's location. He /earned/ that moment; it was a culmination of character development over his entire run on the show.

Meh.

Sage
10-04-2011, 01:47 AM
I take the question to mean

"Who is the Doctor?"

not

"What is his name?"

And maybe this is putting too much trust in Moffat, but I wonder if it's related to what's behind Door 11, and if it goes to something from his past that there's no way we could know. The Doctor is always always always running. What is he running from? Maybe he's split off some aspect of himself that he's scared of (with good reason) and hidden it away somehow, he's released some evil creature and something BAD will happen if he meets with it again, he had some other dark reason for locking away the Time Lords, and so on.

Just some thoughts on where they could go with this. I really like callalily's idea (I think someone else mentioned it too, but I can't find it)

Sophia
10-04-2011, 01:47 AM
How did Doc get out again afterwards? Maybe the TARDIS was in there, and he just loaded the crew on board and they all left, I dunno.

Yes -- when we see the close-up as River looks into his eye, you can see the TARDIS behind the Doctor. He even waves towards it, in a game show hostess way. :D )

Kathleen42
10-04-2011, 02:26 AM
He also later transferred his consciousness into a parasite as a gambit to survive the execution of his own body; he was thus in a parasite controlling his own body, and when his body was destroyed the parasite would be able to take a new host. (In the books, with the payoff on that scheme in the TV movie.) And then he managed to pull off another 'back from the dead without regeneration' trick in the new series, though with some unfortunate side effects...


This post is so full of win. But I'll just quote this part because I have a brilliant idea... The Doctor should somehow transfer his consciousness into Julia Roberts.



Still, I'm willing to admit there may be something more planned there, but in general, I still feel like Moffat wants to have Big Cool Stuff but doesn't want the work of getting there, so he just takes a shortcut and the Cool Stuff directly, expecting the audience to appreciate it.

I find he takes a lot of shortcuts with human emotion as well which has been really bugging me.

Christine N.
10-04-2011, 02:32 AM
I only quoted a line, I don't think I spoiled a moment.

Regardless, my take on the question is that it is the FIRST question of all time for all beings - the question that must never be answered...

And that is:Who am I?

And I'm with the Silence must fall being the religious order falling if it is answered.

Thalia
10-04-2011, 03:12 AM
Oh. Huh. I guess I figured people wouldn't come to a thread with SPOILERS in the title without expecting to be spoiled. Sorry.

Calla Lily
10-04-2011, 03:40 AM
About the running thing, and the idea that he may be running form himself:

In the first Amy season, when they're semi-frozen in the TARDIS and dreaming Amy's life (where Amy's pregnant and Rory dies and she drives the truck into their house to kill the aliens because , as she tells the Doctor, she won't live without Rory), the Doctor says that the entity manipulating them is someone who hates him--and IIRC it's the Doctor himself. Or some aspect of himself. I don't remember it clearly.

Thus, perhaps he is running from himself in some way. A very interesting idea.

LauraAnnSwanson
10-04-2011, 04:01 AM
Fez and a Bow-Tie?
Way Fly for a Time-Lord Guy.
Wait, Did Rory Die?

AlexPiper
10-04-2011, 05:07 AM
Sage: "What is the Doctor running from?" has been given a number of different answers; for at least part of his life we know it was 'the Presidency' since he had been elected president of Gallifrey at one point and fled. I think my favorite is actually in the radio play 'Master,' though, where Doc and the Master are shown to be the champions of Time and Death respectively in keeping with the original series concept of universal forces having embodiments. (White Guardian, Black Guardian, etc.) But in that play, we learn that Doc was originally picked as the Champion of Death... and convinced Death to take his friend Koschei instead. Another boy was bullying Koschei and Doc fought him off... and killed him accidentally. The embodiment of Death came to pick Doc as its champion, but Doc was afraid of that and so convinced Death to take Koschei as her champion instead. So their memories were altered; Koschei -- the Master -- remembered killing his tormentor and unwittingly became Death's champion, being driven to madness. Though neither of them remembered the incident after Death's appointment of Koschei, Doc still knew on some level -- that is what led him to go on the run trying to help others, to assuage the guilt he felt over having turned his friend into a psychopath. This is also why he could never bring himself to actually off the Master.

That's a radio drama of disputable canon status, but I actually rather LIKE that as an answer as to Doc's core motivation. And always have.

AlexPiper
10-04-2011, 05:12 AM
Callalily: Doc's darker side is another element the classic series often flirted with. An entire season of the classic series had the villain of the piece turn out to be the Thirteenth Doctor who -- in a nice tie-in to my earlier post -- wanted to find a way to steal his earlier (Sixth) incarnation's unused regenerations since he no longer had any. (However, the Valeyard's long since been erased from the timestream -- during Eight's time -- so we won't be seeing crazy villain Doc as Thirteen. Presumably.)

(I whited out my reply to Sage since I felt I touched on finale spoiler bits in the context of my answer due to the question posed; this one doesn't really touch on anything spoilery.)

Calla Lily
10-04-2011, 05:42 AM
Alex, your canon knowledge is amazing. Thanks for all the details!

Kathleen42
10-04-2011, 08:01 AM
That's a radio drama of disputable canon status, but I actually rather LIKE that as an answer as to Doc's core motivation. And always have.

Okay. Want. Do you by any chance remember the name of the radio drama?

AlexPiper
10-04-2011, 10:49 AM
Okay. Want. Do you by any chance remember the name of the radio drama?
The name, unsurprisingly, is Master. It's one of the Big Finish audio productions, the ones where they have the actual actors for Doc and companions. That particular one is a Seventh Doctor one, so stars Sylvester McCoy. You can buy it direct from Big Finish as either CD or download (http://bigfinish.com/49-Doctor-Who-Master); I actually have a script I use that turns the digital downloads from their sites into audiobooks formatted a'la Audible (with each episode being a chapter).

I admit the rest of the storyline they hung on that was not one of my favorite Big Finish plays, but the core concept -- the bones of the tale -- are still one of my favorite takes on Doc's motives for what he does and who he is.

AlexPiper
10-04-2011, 10:52 AM
Alex, your canon knowledge is amazing. Thanks for all the details!
This is what happens when you have not only watched the entire series -- a friend digitized every single episode of the classic show and put them on a network drive -- and then read Ahistory (basically, an encyclopedia of all of Doctor Who continuity) cover to cover while sick. THE CONTINUITY GETS INTO YOUR BRAIN AND NEVER LEAVES.

That said, I do really love some of the Big Finish audio plays. Especially those with the Eighth Doctor; McGann was underused, and the audio dramas really show him off to good effect. (Plus, the Brigadier is in one! And voiced, as he should be, by Nicholas Courtney! I was very happy that he thus managed to add Eight to his retinue of Doctors he'd been companion to.)

Kathleen42
10-04-2011, 11:30 AM
The name, unsurprisingly, is Master. It's one of the Big Finish audio productions, the ones where they have the actual actors for Doc and companions. That particular one is a Seventh Doctor one, so stars Sylvester McCoy. You can buy it direct from Big Finish as either CD or download (http://bigfinish.com/49-Doctor-Who-Master); I actually have a script I use that turns the digital downloads from their sites into audiobooks formatted a'la Audible (with each episode being a chapter).

I admit the rest of the storyline they hung on that was not one of my favorite Big Finish plays, but the core concept -- the bones of the tale -- are still one of my favorite takes on Doc's motives for what he does and who he is.

Sweet! I was hoping you'd say it was one of the Big Finish ones. And I love Seven.

I do wish Big Finish would work out something where you could buy through iTunes. Of course then I would probably overspend...

Kathleen42
10-04-2011, 11:34 AM
That said, I do really love some of the Big Finish audio plays. Especially those with the Eighth Doctor; McGann was underused, and the audio dramas really show him off to good effect. (Plus, the Brigadier is in one! And voiced, as he should be, by Nicholas Courtney! I was very happy that he thus managed to add Eight to his retinue of Doctors he'd been companion to.)

I've got three of the Eighth Doctor Big Finish audio dramas, all purchased because the 1997 tv movie (bad though it was) convinced me that Eight was awesome. I was really glad that they re-tooled Shada so that he could be in it.

I also admit that part of me, after the series was brought back, was desperately hoping they'd do some sort of mini-series with eight showing the end of the time war.

AlexPiper
10-04-2011, 11:56 AM
I also admit that part of me, after the series was brought back, was desperately hoping they'd do some sort of mini-series with eight showing the end of the time war.
I was too. Alas!

Though McGann has said he'll reprise the role if asked to do an Eight-meets-later-incarnation storyline, on the one condition that he not have to wear the uncomfortable wig ever again.

(As for Big Finish, yes, if they sold through iTunes I would have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars. My script is bad enough, since I just have to drop the files onto it.)

firedrake
10-04-2011, 12:01 PM
Bloody hell, Alex...I am blown away by your knowledge :Hail:

Re: The running thing. I'm reminded of 'The Sound of Drums' when the Doctor is talking about when he was a boy and he and the Master were forced to look into the Time Vortex (I think that's what he called it). It sent the Master mad and the Doctor said he'd been running from it ever since.

Lily, I like your theory.

Calla Lily
10-04-2011, 05:11 PM
fire, I'd forgotten that. Mwah!

AlexPiper
10-04-2011, 10:03 PM
Re: The running thing. I'm reminded of 'The Sound of Drums' when the Doctor is talking about when he was a boy and he and the Master were forced to look into the Time Vortex (I think that's what he called it). It sent the Master mad and the Doctor said he'd been running from it ever since.
Yep! Some people think that's a hint that the same underlying motive as the audio play may be there in the series, too; that the naked Time Vortex driving the Master mad is something Doc still feels guilty over for some reason, and so he's been trying to make up for that ever since.

(Which wouldn't honestly surprise me that much. RTD was known to be a fan of some of the audio dramas and some of the books.)

Alessandra Kelley
10-05-2011, 01:31 AM
Seen the finale now. Crowning moments of awesome!

Alessandra Kelley
10-05-2011, 01:56 AM
I'd like to get my husband (and by extension the young'uns) some classic Dr. Who videos. We have the new, rebooted ones -- by "classic" I mean Doctors one through seven. My husband and I have seen every extant episode at one time or another, but the kids have seen none. We're on a budget, so I have to be selective.

Can people recommend good foundational episodes? We already have the whole "Key to Time" sequence. I'd love to hear and consider people's favorites.

A final note: I prefer UK dvds, even though we're American. But any suggestion is welcome.

AlexPiper
10-05-2011, 02:13 AM
For some classic Sarah Jane (which will thus make her appearances in the newer series more poignant), I'd recommend the Fourth Doctor's serial Genesis of the Daleks (which explains Davros' comment to Sarah Jane in the new series, where he remarks, "Sarah Jane Smith... I remember you. You were there at the beginning, so long ago...") and the Third Doctor's Invasion of the Dinosaurs (which Sarah Jane references in her argument with Rose in School Reunion over who's seen cooler things, when she notes, "real dinosaurs"). Invasion is also a great UNIT storyline in general.

Lillie
10-05-2011, 02:20 AM
I'd like to get my husband (and by extension the young'uns) some classic Dr. Who videos. We have the new, rebooted ones -- by "classic" I mean Doctors one through seven. My husband and I have seen every extant episode at one time or another, but the kids have seen none. We're on a budget, so I have to be selective.

Can people recommend good foundational episodes? We already have the whole "Key to Time" sequence. I'd love to hear and consider people's favorites.

A final note: I prefer UK dvds, even though we're American. But any suggestion is welcome.

I've watched it all my life, and I suppose I've seen a fair few of them.
But the only one that ever really scared me was the one down the mine with the maggots. That was really horrible.
That was Jon Pertwee. I can't remember the name of it, but those maggots terrified me.

AlexPiper
10-05-2011, 03:04 AM
But the only one that ever really scared me was the one down the mine with the maggots. That was really horrible.
That was Jon Pertwee. I can't remember the name of it, but those maggots terrified me.
The Green Death.

Lillie
10-05-2011, 03:37 AM
Ah! Was that what it was called? It must be 40 years since I saw it. It scared the crap out of me. I can still remember it now.

I wouldn't want to watch it again, in case they were just stupid rubber maggots that weren't scary at all.

MrWrite
10-10-2011, 06:27 PM
Yeah that can be a bit of a let down. I remember as a kid running and hiding behind the couch during a scene in Talons of Weng Chiang when a giant rat was terrorising the Doctor and Leela.

Years later, I bought the story when it came out on video. When I got to the bit that had scared me as a kid, I couldn't help laughing. The "rat" was obviously a stuffed toy that someone was thrusting forward not too convincingly. I remember as a kid seeing the rat had glowing red eyes and was letting out a blood curdling roar. It's funny how your eyes fill in what you expect to be there as a kid. In the video scene there were no red eyes and the "blood curdling roar" was more of a snuffling. LOL.

On a sidenote, they seem to have improved that scene for the dvd release, as the rat does look better, though still not as ferocious as I'd seen as a kid.

Btw, the maggots in Green Death, are still pretty effective, seen through the eyes of an adult. Unfortunately, that giant dragonfly or whatever it was isn't as good.

Calla Lily
10-10-2011, 06:45 PM
One of my favorites is from the Tom Baker years--The Ark in Space. The "monster" is bubble-wrap dyed green and pushed in waves against a grid or small openings so it looks alive. When I saw that as an adult, I just laughed. Yet the classic eps overcame the cheesy FX because of the acting and character interplay.

MrWrite
10-10-2011, 10:07 PM
The original Doctor Who is like the original Star Trek series. They were both hampered by low budgets but had the ambition to try to reach beyond their capabilities to show us alien worlds. Oddly, now with a much higher budget and the computer generated effects they have at their disposal, the new Who shows are mainly based on Earth. Go figure!

Christine N.
10-10-2011, 11:17 PM
My son is going as 11 for Halloween (his choice!)

Alessandra Kelley
10-10-2011, 11:22 PM
My son is going as 11 for Halloween (his choice!)

Neat! Has he got friends to be Amy and Rory?

Christine N.
10-11-2011, 02:54 AM
Nah, no one's as big a geek as my kid. However, I have wild, curly hair. With the right attire I could pull off River Song.

He insisted on a fez.

LauraAnnSwanson
10-11-2011, 03:04 AM
I wish I had hair.. stupid chemo. I could buy a wig and do River. :D

I'm trying to talk the oldest daughter into being Amy in the police uniform for Halloween. :D

Alessandra Kelley
10-11-2011, 03:20 AM
Nah, no one's as big a geek as my kid. However, I have wild, curly hair. With the right attire I could pull off River Song.

He insisted on a fez.

You are an awesome mom.

Do you have jodhpurs?

Alessandra Kelley
11-24-2011, 03:41 AM
Happy 48th Anniversary of the first broadcast!

My husband and I are planning to show the kids "An Unearthly Child" tonight.

Tanglewood
11-24-2011, 04:00 AM
I'd like to get my husband (and by extension the young'uns) some classic Dr. Who videos. We have the new, rebooted ones -- by "classic" I mean Doctors one through seven. My husband and I have seen every extant episode at one time or another, but the kids have seen none. We're on a budget, so I have to be selective.

Can people recommend good foundational episodes? We already have the whole "Key to Time" sequence. I'd love to hear and consider people's favorites.


Get 'The Caves of Androzani'. It's Peter Davison's last adventure, and I reckon it's probably the best serial of the "classic" era.

eyeblink
12-12-2011, 11:57 AM
Two previously missing 60s episodes have been found - and were shown (well, half of one plus all of the second) yesterday afternoon at Missing Believed Wiped in London. I was there!

here (http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2011-12-11/doctor-who-two-long-lost-episodes-uncovered)

Alessandra Kelley
12-23-2011, 06:58 AM
Two previously missing 60s episodes have been found - and were shown (well, half of one plus all of the second) yesterday afternoon at Missing Believed Wiped in London. I was there!

here (http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2011-12-11/doctor-who-two-long-lost-episodes-uncovered)

Squee! What a treat!

For some classic Sarah Jane (which will thus make her appearances in the newer series more poignant), I'd recommend the Fourth Doctor's serial Genesis of the Daleks (which explains Davros' comment to Sarah Jane in the new series, where he remarks, "Sarah Jane Smith... I remember you. You were there at the beginning, so long ago...") and the Third Doctor's Invasion of the Dinosaurs (which Sarah Jane references in her argument with Rose in School Reunion over who's seen cooler things, when she notes, "real dinosaurs"). Invasion is also a great UNIT storyline in general.

We showed the kids "Genesis of the Daleks" last week. About ten minutes in my eldest realised "Sarah" was Sarah Jane Smith and got really excited. But she was less thrilled with the original version of Davros. "He looks like a muppet!"

I am finding the old episodes better than I remembered. It probably helps that I'm seeing them on crisp DVD rather than snowy broadcast TV with mushy sound. The subtitles help with odd accents, too, for the children.

Really looking forward to the Christmas Special!

dragonjax
12-27-2011, 04:47 AM
So? What did you think of "The Doctor, The Widow and the Wardrobe"?

For a Christmas special, it was lovely. For a Doctor Who story, though, for me it fell short of the mark. Yes, lovely, heart-warming, etc. But I didn't feel any palpable sense of danger or urgency or...well, or anything, really, other than "It's a lovely story."

Although now I think the Doctor doesn't need a companion as much as he needs a mother. ;)

The ending was a decent fast-forward set-up for when season seven kicks off. In Autumn 2012. SIGH. **gets ready to wait**

Calla Lily
12-27-2011, 04:50 AM
Pleasant. We enjoyed it. A little much with the Doctor as uber-Mary Poppins, but it worked with this Doctor's personality.

I was hoping we misunderstood that fast-moving multi-show promo. Not till the fall... sigh.

Alessandra Kelley
12-27-2011, 06:16 AM
Those children reminded me of my own, right down to the vague cynicism and the farsighted magnifying eyeglasses. My kids have longer hair, though.

I noticed the shout-out to Androzani, home of environmental ravagers since, what, 1984? And of course the CS Lewis references.

I liked it a lot, but it was definitely a Christmas story, with a very British sentimentality (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Are there going to be any Comic Relief stories before the regular season?

MrWrite
12-29-2011, 12:05 AM
I'd like to get my husband (and by extension the young'uns) some classic Dr. Who videos. We have the new, rebooted ones -- by "classic" I mean Doctors one through seven. My husband and I have seen every extant episode at one time or another, but the kids have seen none. We're on a budget, so I have to be selective.

Can people recommend good foundational episodes? We already have the whole "Key to Time" sequence. I'd love to hear and consider people's favorites.

A final note: I prefer UK dvds, even though we're American. But any suggestion is welcome.

Some of my favourites include:

William Hartnell (1st Doctor)
An Unearthly Child
The Daleks
The Chase

Patrick Troughton
Tomb of the Cybermen
The Invasion
The War Games

Jon Pertwee
Spearhead From Space
Claws of Axos
The Sea Devils
The Three Doctors (a particularly good one for obvious reasons)
Carnival of Monsters
Planet of the Daleks
The Green Death
The Time Warrior (introduction of Sarah-Jane and a very good story)

Tom Baker
Genesis of the Daleks
Pyramids of Mars
Brain of Morbius
Seeds of Doom
Robots of Death (one of my faves)
Talons of Weng Chiang
Destiny of the Daleks
City of Death

SarahHobson
01-10-2012, 02:51 AM
Hello fellow Who-vians! Just dropping by to say hello and share in the love of all things Who. ^_^

Alessandra Kelley
02-07-2012, 09:05 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2012/feb/07/monster-show-doctor-who-experience

DavidBrett
02-10-2012, 02:08 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2012/feb/07/monster-show-doctor-who-experience

My gorgeous girlfriend took me to the Experience for my birthday last year - it was absolutely brilliant, if only a lil too short on the interaction-side.

What was the name of the last Sarah Jane story? Was it the Hand of Fate, or something like that...?

For a bit of more up-to-date news; http://tinyurl.com/73glwch

Roll on, Feb 20th!

Alessandra Kelley
02-10-2012, 02:25 AM
It was "The Hand of Fear." The Doctor got summoned back to Gallifrey and Sarah Jane had been wanting a normal life anyway.

... Or rather, that was the last Classic Who Sarah Jane story. She showed up, of course, in several recent Doctors Who.

The funny thing is, I used to hate her character. She was so screamy and useless. But then she came back and she was marvelous. Recently I went back and watched some old episodes with her in, and they were much better -- she was much better -- than I remembered (Except for "The Five Doctors," where the script was very unkind to her, and that pink 'eighties bow-covered dress didn't help.).

Glad you got to see the exhibit. It looks fabulous.

Grrarrgh
03-21-2012, 10:59 PM
Casting News (http://blastr.com/2012/03/its-official-doctor-whos.php) - possible spoilers

mirandashell
03-21-2012, 11:04 PM
Can I request that everyone use spoiler tags please? Just on the off-chance that someone who doesn't want to know comes on the thread.

Thank you

MrWrite
03-22-2012, 12:34 AM
Intriguing. It sounds like we have another season coming up abounding with mysteries and surprises.

MrWrite
05-02-2012, 04:32 PM
We've got our Gallifrey One tickets for next Feb and the hotel booked. I'm going to my first ever Doctor Who convention in LA! And it's going to be a biggie what with it being the 50th anniversary. I can't wait! It's going to be a long summer! ;)

Anyone else going?

eggs
05-06-2012, 05:48 PM
I just discovered this thread tonight and have had the time of my life reading it in one go. So awesome! I loved reading all the !OMG! What Could Possibly Happen Next !?! stuff as the series rolled out. I especially enjoyed the emotional arc of farewelling 10 and grudgingly welcoming 11 into the whovian fold. So, so much fun to read. Thank you! I'm really looking forward to joining in when then next series roles out.

Smiley0501
05-07-2012, 08:44 AM
*Violet Beauregarde whiny voice* I want the new season already, Daddy! Is it winter yet?! :cry::Hammer::Jump:

eggs
05-08-2012, 07:03 AM
*Violet Beauregarde whiny voice* I want the new season already, Daddy! Is it winter yet?! :cry::Hammer::Jump:

Ha! This is totally my 9 year old daughter. She's even trying to talk me into buying tix for the Gallifrey One convention in Los Angeles. We live in Sydney, Australia. She sees no conflict.

Smiley0501
05-09-2012, 10:27 PM
I got into Doctor Who when I lived in Australia (Brisbane, though). Now that I am back in the States I'm finding new Whovian friends :D

Just tell your daughter it's ONLY an almost 18 hour flight experience:ROFL:

Alessandra Kelley
05-09-2012, 11:04 PM
I just discovered this thread tonight and have had the time of my life reading it in one go. So awesome! I loved reading all the !OMG! What Could Possibly Happen Next !?! stuff as the series rolled out. I especially enjoyed the emotional arc of farewelling 10 and grudgingly welcoming 11 into the whovian fold. So, so much fun to read. Thank you! I'm really looking forward to joining in when then next series roles out.

Welcome to the thread. I've been a fan since the Peter Davison years, although Patrick Troughton was my favorite Doctor for a long time. My kids love the show too.

MichelleJean
05-10-2012, 04:00 AM
*Violet Beauregarde whiny voice* I want the new season already, Daddy! Is it winter yet?! :cry::Hammer::Jump:

Ha! I can't wait for the new season! The wait seems quite interminable sometimes too.

eggs
05-11-2012, 04:13 PM
Welcome to the thread. I've been a fan since the Peter Davison years, although Patrick Troughton was my favorite Doctor for a long time. My kids love the show too.

I'm an old slapper, so Jon Pertwee & Tom Baker will always be The Real Doctor to me. For some reason they kind of melded into the same guy for me as a kid. My kids are currently melding Tennant & Smith together in their heads, nice to see that a role can still transcend and actor.

Bmwhtly
06-29-2012, 10:22 AM
From what I remember, mine too.

Revised judgement later.Very late, but I thought I'd ressurect this thread to say that The Stones of Blood is not the best of The Key To Time season.
The correct answer is The Pirate Planet

I don't have any of the Leela DVDs, I'm waiting for them to release her first story first.In other news, The Face of Evil has been released and bought. It's even better than I remember.
And that's not just because of Leela's legs. It really is a piece of genius in terms of writing (Although the original title The Day God Went Mad does fit rather better)


Thoughts, comments and insults welcome.

Calla Lily
06-29-2012, 05:13 PM
The only Leela ep I own is the one with the haunted lighthouse(?) in Brighton, where they put her in a pseudo-Victorian long-sleeved dress. IIRC, she sheds it pretty fast.

RichardGarfinkle
06-29-2012, 09:47 PM
The only Leela ep I own is the one with the haunted lighthouse(?) in Brighton, where they put her in a pseudo-Victorian long-sleeved dress. IIRC, she sheds it pretty fast.

Leela to my mind is in the top ranks of assistants. She goes from being an illiterate savage to being able to live on Gallifray. She is usually described as pure instinct, but she's wickedly smart as well as tough.

Side note: I tend to classify the assistants by how competent they are. The top rank to me are the ones who can get along without the Doctor. To my mind that's:

Susan, Zoe, Liz, The Brigadear, Leela, Romana, Nissa (on a good day), Ace (on a good day), Jack (obviously), Martha, Rory (when he's in full on Last Centurian mode), and River Song (of course).

eggs
07-03-2012, 11:33 AM
I love River Song so much, but only in small doses otherwise she overwhelms the flavour of the show. I just read a comment on another board hypothesizing that a special episode of either TW or DW where River Song and Captain Jack unite for an adventure without the Doctor would be great fun. I couldn't handle more than one episode of it, but I think that one episode would be awesome fun!

Max Vaehling
07-03-2012, 02:19 PM
I love River Song so much, but only in small doses otherwise she overwhelms the flavour of the show. I just read a comment on another board hypothesizing that a special episode of either TW or DW where River Song and Captain Jack unite for an adventure without the Doctor would be great fun. I couldn't handle more than one episode of it, but I think that one episode would be awesome fun!

Totally seconded. If I have one big problem with Moffat's run of DW, it's that he relies too heavily on (and thus overuses) ideas that worked great in his contributions to RTD's run. River, the weeping angels, wibbly-wobbly, but most of all River. A little less could end up as more. (The other beef I got is that he didn't bring Sparrow & Nightingale back, but maybe that's good, considering.) Also, isn't DW supposed to be about new ideas and concepts, challenging what's in your mind already? This way, it seems to circle a little too much around the same concepts. On a high level, mind you, but anyway.

When Moffat wasn't the show runner, his eps stood out. Now we need Neil Gaiman for that.

Rhoda Nightingale
07-05-2012, 01:34 AM
Neil Gaiman makes everything better.

I'm completely caught up with the episodes as of last week, when I watched "The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe." Getting Mom up to speed gradually as we speak. (She's up to "The Big Bang.")

I heart River, but I'm kind of annoyed with how her character was handled in the latter half of Season 6. Still love her, and I always expected her to devolve in both maturity and wisdom as time went because, well, she's aging backwards from our POV, isn't she? But...yeah, I wasn't entirely pleased with the finale.

Bmwhtly
07-05-2012, 03:52 AM
Side note: I tend to classify the assistants by how competent they are. The top rank to me are the ones who can get along without the Doctor. To my mind that's:

Susan, Zoe, Liz, The Brigadear, Leela, Romana, Nissa (on a good day), Ace (on a good day), Jack (obviously), Martha, Rory (when he's in full on Last Centurian mode), and River Song (of course).Turlough should be way up on that list.

RichardGarfinkle
07-06-2012, 05:18 AM
Turlough should be way up on that list.

I go back and forth on Turlough. Yes, competent, but not always of assistance, as it were.

mirandashell
08-03-2012, 01:09 AM
Just saw the trailer for the new series.

Spoiler: Bloody Pond is still in it! :gaah Please let it only be for one episode! But I don't think it is......

DavidBrett
08-03-2012, 04:11 AM
Miranda - I'm on my phone, so I can't do spoiler fonts, but it's pretty well known now, both in fan circles and the news, that this IS going to be her last season (hurrah!). I think they're going to cut the season in half again, the second half introducing that new companion who I swear played a lesbian in "Emmerdale"...

mirandashell
08-03-2012, 04:14 AM
Woah! Don't tell me who it is!

I have studiously avoided every site, every paper, everything that will tell me who it is.

In fact you've already slightly spoiled it by telling me the gender!

Hopefully, with my holey memory, I'll have forgotten by the time it starts.

MrWrite
08-03-2012, 07:13 AM
**Spoiler alert**

Here's a new trailer for season 7. All I can say is this season looks like it's going to be epic. I can't wait for it to start.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/08/02/daleks-aplenty-in-new-doctor-who-trailer-and-weeping-angels-dinosaurs-and-more/

The Dalek episode looks insane and I'm looking forward to the Weeping Angels story, too.

jvc
08-03-2012, 07:17 AM
I'm really looking forward to the new season of DW. But why can't they show it now, instead of waiting till stupid Autumn? :gaah

mirandashell
08-03-2012, 11:10 PM
Spoiler: Just found out that Pond is in the whole of the first half of the series! We don't get a new companion until Christmas! Double :gaah

DavidBrett
08-04-2012, 12:19 AM
Miranda - *Jedi Mind Trick gesture* You heard nothing...

SilverBirch
08-04-2012, 01:02 AM
I just came across a fan-drawn graphic novel I thought I'd share here - it's called "The Ten Doctors" (http://comics.shipsinker.com/archive.php?arc=10doctors) and it's all kinds of awesome. It's pretty long (I'm only on page 89 myself) but it might help fill the wait until the new season. I'm not too familiar with Classic Who myself, but he guy behind this seems to know his stuff.

(Sorry if this has been mentioned already, I didn't have time to check back through the thread...)

mirandashell
08-04-2012, 01:05 AM
Miranda - *Jedi Mind Trick gesture* You heard nothing...


Oh yes I ... err.. what? Who are you again?

Mac H.
08-04-2012, 12:39 PM
One thing I found a bit odd ... I was sure that there'd be a reference to 'Dr Who' in the Opening Olympics ceremony.

It would have made a lot of sense in the same way there were references to "James Bond" & "Mr Bean". It would have worked well because you don't need to see details .. simply see that Blue police box at some point.

It would have been easy to put in .. it literally just has to appear at some point and disappear at another without explanation. Pretty simple.

Mac

MrWrite
08-04-2012, 09:24 PM
One thing I found a bit odd ... I was sure that there'd be a reference to 'Dr Who' in the Opening Olympics ceremony.

It would have made a lot of sense in the same way there were references to "James Bond" & "Mr Bean". It would have worked well because you don't need to see details .. simply see that Blue police box at some point.

It would have been easy to put in .. it literally just has to appear at some point and disappear at another without explanation. Pretty simple.

Mac

I'm not 100% sure but I thought I read on Facebook that there was some kind of reference to Doctor Who. I could be mistaken though. It happens from time to time. ;)

Parametric
08-04-2012, 09:34 PM
I heard that there was meant to be some Doctor Who reference toward the end of the ceremony, but they had to cut it short because they were running out of time? Or something.

Priene
08-05-2012, 12:00 AM
I definitely heard the Tardis during the music segment.

mirandashell
08-05-2012, 12:03 AM
So did I. I looked up at that point so see if it had appeared somewhere.

It might be in the Closing Ceremony. Which we haven't heard much about so far.

vfury
08-05-2012, 02:36 AM
I heard it, too. Had a very excited moment that led to nothing. Hopefully they'll do something in the Closing Ceremony.

Sage
08-05-2012, 07:17 AM
Not that I'm getting to see most of the Olympics anyway, but are you guys sure people weren't referencing the episode of season 2 when the Doctor lit the Torch? I know people I follow on FB were making jokes about it a lot (and so was I, but partly because Roomie and I watched that ep instead of the actual ceremonies)

vfury
08-05-2012, 01:50 PM
I recorded the Opening Ceremony on the BBC as I was only finished work when it started. I rewound to make sure I wasn't hearing things. It's during the Industrial Revolution segment, and it's honestly a split-second moment you could easily miss. But it does jarr as it's the Tardis noise during a bunch of percussion.

Nakhlasmoke
08-05-2012, 03:25 PM
I definitely heard the Tardis during the music segment.


I also thought I heard it. Squealed "TARDIS!!!" and then waited but that seemed to be it so I figured I'd misheard it.

BigWords
08-05-2012, 05:21 PM
Brits might want to note that Daleks Invasion Earth is on in five minutes, though unfortunately on Channel 5. I may dig out the DVD so I don't have to sit throught the interminable adverts...

MrWrite
08-06-2012, 03:28 AM
In one hour the official Doctor Who twitter account is going to make an announcement about an "iconic star" who is going to appear in the Christmas special. If you follow any Doctor Who people on Twitter, you might want to sign in to see who it is.

MrWrite
08-06-2012, 04:40 AM
Ok the announcement has been made and the actor who will be guest starring on the Christmas special is Richard E Grant. I whited out the name in case anyone is allergic to spoilers. ;)

vfury
08-06-2012, 04:44 AM
AWESOME. :hooray:

(They were actually in the bookshop I work at two weeks ago! I didn't serve them. Which is good, as I probably would have said something incredibly stupid and gone all googly-eyed from adoration.)

BigWords
08-06-2012, 04:55 AM
Oooh. So...

I wonder if his former appearance as The Doctor is being treated as in-continuity, or if he is gonna be playing a new character. If he is reprising his role as The Doctor, that would be so much cooler than anything I can think of the show doing since it has returned.

And whited out for those catching up on the show's history. :D

MrWrite
08-06-2012, 05:08 AM
Oooh. So...

I wonder if his former appearance as The Doctor is being treated as in-continuity, or if he is gonna be playing a new character. If he is reprising his role as The Doctor, that would be so much cooler than anything I can think of the show doing since it has returned.

And whited out for those catching up on the show's history. :D

I guess we'll have to wait and see on that one.

mirandashell
08-06-2012, 04:20 PM
Ok.... if you quote something whited out, it shows up. Which kinds of defeats the object of the white-out, don't ya think?

MrWrite
08-07-2012, 03:40 AM
Oops sorry. It still appears whited out to me though.

mirandashell
08-07-2012, 05:06 PM
I can definitely see it.

Grrarrgh
08-21-2012, 12:21 AM
Mr. Grr just texted me that the US premiere of Season 7 is 9/8. I haven't found any confirmation of this, though, and I suspect he's messing with me because we're on vacation that week and won't be able to watch it. Has anyone else heard this??? I don't even see it on the BBC America website, which I would think would have it first.

AlexPiper
08-21-2012, 04:13 AM
I definitely heard the Tardis during the music segment.
The TARDIS noise was played during the music, and I'm told by a few friends that on the BBC they had the broadcast actually introduced by the Doctor. (I haven't seen that myself, so can't confirm.)

HeavilyMedicated
08-21-2012, 05:57 PM
Oooh. So...

I wonder if his former appearance as The Doctor is being treated as in-continuity, or if he is gonna be playing a new character. If he is reprising his role as The Doctor, that would be so much cooler than anything I can think of the show doing since it has returned.

And whited out for those catching up on the show's history. :D

I can't see it being in-continuity. But who knows?

KimJo
08-22-2012, 01:58 AM
Mr. Grr just texted me that the US premiere of Season 7 is 9/8. I haven't found any confirmation of this, though, and I suspect he's messing with me because we're on vacation that week and won't be able to watch it. Has anyone else heard this??? I don't even see it on the BBC America website, which I would think would have it first.

Google-fu does indicate that Mr. Grr is right; it isn't on the BBCAmerica website, but I've found it on a couple other sites.

Grrarrgh
08-22-2012, 08:22 PM
Mr. Grr was wrong! BBC America has officially announced the premiere date of 9/1 in the US!

http://www.bbcamerica.com/doctor-who/extras/season-7-premiere-date/

Calla Lily
08-22-2012, 08:24 PM
:hooray:

Fuchsia
08-25-2012, 04:47 AM
Will Series 7 be available to watch online - like on BBC's website or something? I'm very, very behind on all the latest internet... stuff, so I wouldn't know where to look for that kind of info. I've heard of Hulu - would it maybe be there?

I REALLY don't want to have to wait for the series to be over, come out on DVD, and then rent it from Netflix. Seems I've finally found a downside to not being able to afford cable.

amblack
08-26-2012, 10:38 PM
Mr. Grr was wrong! BBC America has officially announced the premiere date of 9/1 in the US!

http://www.bbcamerica.com/doctor-who/extras/season-7-premiere-date/


Coming in here for the premiere week-long anticipation party! :PartySmil So excited! :partyguy:

mirandashell
09-02-2012, 12:56 AM
Well, it's started. Have to admit that for the first time ever I wasn't excited about it. I watched because, well, I'm a fan. But I really wasn't excited about it.

And it was what I expected. Too much Pond. I will be so glad when she's gone.

I did like the story about Souffle Girl. Even though I did guess the ending before it happened.


And the story was preposterous. How was Souffle Girl doing all that stuff if it was all a dream? If she was a Dalek chained up in a room, how was she hacking into the web?

And the whole 'Daleks don't get scared thing' was a massive plot hole.

BunnyMaz
09-02-2012, 02:06 AM
I assumed the hacking thing was her projecting a fantasy around the fact that she's a part of the dalek consciousness web thingy. Presumably, she was just such a moffat sue genius amazing lady that she could hack in... erm, and also retain her emotions and individual personality in the face of a full conversion... um.

Moffat sure likes his Perfect Women.

I was more frustrated by the completely pointless OMG THEY BROKE UP plot thread that started, was dealt with and was fixed in the space of a single episode. Kind of seems like a waste of time to have the drama of them breaking up for Unknown Reasons if you're just going to make it all okay just like that. Also made me wonder why they couldn't have had that conversation while still together, seeing as "I left you because you want kids!" "So what if I want them?" "I can't have them!" "Please see my previous question!" was apparently all they needed to say to make everything okay again.

I really would like to see a different director get a chance at a whole season. Moffat is wearing thin.

Shakesbear
09-02-2012, 02:11 AM
I sat back, large Scotch and soda and went into Dr Who world. I really enjoyed it. I did not try to work out what was going on - just went with the flow. Oh . . . and knowing that there were Daleks involved I had Clarence the Bear keep me company.

Clarence and I agree though that the sooner Pond goes the better.

Calla Lily
09-02-2012, 02:23 AM
It's on in 4 hours here. I'm not a Pond-hater, but I will be sad when she leaves because Rory will too. I think Rory is teh ossum.

I've disliked Moffat's writing for some time now. :( But I do have a soft spot for Matt Smith as the Doctor.

PineMarten
09-02-2012, 03:00 AM
I've been waiting for this post for a while!

I really enjoyed the whole thing - and I quite like Amy Pond. I was surprised to hear they were getting a divorce and was quite happy to see them get back together over the course of the show.

It seemed to me that it was because soufflé girl both retained her identity AND was part of the Dalek hive mind that she was able to hack the system.

Nah, I don't have much to complain about here. :)

Highlights:

1. "Well, somebody's never been to Scotland" and other one-liners.
2. Sinister doctor.
3. The twist. I never saw that coming because I thought she was going to be the new companion. Weirdly, Twitter is telling me that she still is.

mirandashell
09-02-2012, 03:37 AM
I don't know. Moff is making less and less sense every series. I'm not saying that the story has to be realistic, that would be silly. But it should be coherent. Even as a Doctor fan since I was a kid, I'm not going to give it a pass just because it's Doctor Who.

Moffat wrote two of the best episodes ever. But as a director, he's been a real disappointment.

eggs
09-02-2012, 06:06 AM
I like Pond, but I'd rather the companion screen time was split more evenly between her and Rory, whom I love. Still, could be worse. Anyone remember the other red-headed companion - the annoying Mel with her stupid bloody carrot juice obsession?

BigWords
09-02-2012, 06:31 AM
2. Sinister doctor.

I know the Seventh Doctor has something of a negative association in parts of fandom, but this was precisely the reason I liked him - the return of aspects of that regeneration ("The Doctor lies" for instance) is welcome after the goody two-shoes Tenth Doctor, and his endless Dudley Do-Right antics. I like my demi-gods to be a bit bastardly in their interactions with lesser mortals.

Calla Lily
09-02-2012, 07:42 AM
Rory rules.

They zinged through the credits faster than the human eye could read. Does anyone know if they gave credit to Matheson's I Am Legend? It was blatant.

Also, Daleks making humans into new Daleks? That's what the Cybermen do/are. Um... tiny bit annoyed at this crossover. They Cybermen tried to do the exact same thing in the 2-parter Alt-Earth Tennant ep.

Grrarrgh
09-02-2012, 07:45 AM
So Mr. Grr and I just finished re-watching season 6 in anticipation of the season 7 premiere. I looked back through this thread, and I didn't see any reference to this, so pardon me if it's already been discussed, but if River keeping the doctor alive caused some sort of time and space rift, and time to become frozen, how did the fake death of a robot Doctor fix it? Am I completely missing something here, or is it just one of those "just go with it" DW things?

BigWords
09-02-2012, 08:01 AM
I really doubt they gave credit - the pilfering of ideas has been a staple of the show since... the second series? Maybe right from the start (the Genghis Khan serial was made around the time of the US film IIRC, so they are adept at latching on the good ideas).

BigWords
09-02-2012, 08:03 AM
It is one of the great ponderables... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra)

_Sian_
09-02-2012, 05:17 PM
So, sitting down for the first episode of the seventh season.

Reading back a bit - my favourite doctor is probably matt smith, he's just the right amount of hyper, imho, and while I loved david tennet, he could get a bit melodramatic. Or maybe that was just the scripts ect.

But this is going to be fun :D

Calla Lily
09-02-2012, 08:28 PM
My favorite Doctor is still Tom Baker. Tennant is a close second. But I really like Doctors 1-3 as well.

The original, IIRC, movie starring Peter Cushing is... interesting in a super-low-budget way.

BigWords
09-02-2012, 08:37 PM
The original, IIRC, movie starring Peter Cushing is... interesting in a super-low-budget way.

Both films are utterly bonkers, cheap (there is a copious amount of advertising on-screen if you look for it) and very, very entertaining. The character is completely different to the television series (he's human, and called "Doctor Who", among other alterations) but if you can accept the films on their own terms, they are magnificent.

jvc
09-03-2012, 01:55 AM
I liked the episode but it won't be down as one of my favourites. Didn't like the 'break up and get back together after five minutes' thing. Am kinda finding Pond to be annoying now, too. I have to say, although I still think Tennant is my favourite Doctor, Matt Smith is really growing on me. He is getting better and better.

Oh, and I'm merging this thread into the other Doctor Who thread. Just to keep things tidy and in one place. I'm a bit OCD like that. ;)

Calla Lily
09-03-2012, 02:47 AM
Oh, noes! I clicked on BW's link--to TVTropes.

*drowns*

*pulls self out*

*whew*

EMaree
09-03-2012, 02:58 AM
This was a fun episode, though I had to keep my inner critic dialled down to low to avoid the gaping plot holes. I liked how this episode seems to be nodding to the fact that Amy's becoming an annoying character, with that poseur photography scene, and I found the dalek-human (and dalek-dead-human) hybrids to be one of the scariest new turns we've had on the Daleks for a while.

But it does bug me that they're going the Cyberman route. My brain kept going 'haven't we seen these hybrids before... oh yeah, with the Cybermen', and I worry we're going to end up with a repeat of the old Cybermen human-versus-monster-nature struggles.

Tennant is by far my favourite, but Matt is good fun. He just doesn't do 'dark' very well, and I love the Doctor best when his dark/cold and battle-weary side comes out.

_Sian_
09-03-2012, 04:54 AM
This was a fun episode, though I had to keep my inner critic dialled down to low to avoid the gaping plot holes. I liked how this episode seems to be nodding to the fact that Amy's becoming an annoying character, with that poseur photography scene, and I found the dalek-human (and dalek-dead-human) hybrids to be one of the scariest new turns we've had on the Daleks for a while.

But it does bug me that they're going the Cyberman route. My brain kept going 'haven't we seen these hybrids before... oh yeah, with the Cybermen', and I worry we're going to end up with a repeat of the old Cybermen human-versus-monster-nature struggles.

Tennant is by far my favourite, but Matt is good fun. He just doesn't do 'dark' very well, and I love the Doctor best when his dark/cold and battle-weary side comes out.


True. But I think he does do angry well.

Also, I'm a total wuss, because I spent the entire time clicking forwards to make sure everyone was aright before clicking back. The new iteration of the darleks was scary...

I do think the nano replicator things are one of the scarier things in doctor who - that episode with the gas masks and the kids terrified me and kept me up that night, irregardless of how up beat the ending was. So to have that applied to dareks are them much less of a joke.

Kathleen42
09-03-2012, 04:59 AM
I know the Seventh Doctor has something of a negative association in parts of fandom, but this was precisely the reason I liked him - the return of aspects of that regeneration ("The Doctor lies" for instance) is welcome after the goody two-shoes Tenth Doctor, and his endless Dudley Do-Right antics. I like my demi-gods to be a bit bastardly in their interactions with lesser mortals.

I loved Seven for that reason as well. The scene in Curse of Fenric where he shatters Ace? So very awesome.

Kathleen42
09-03-2012, 05:08 AM
*sigh* So very torn. I loved souffle girl and think she was the best thing Moffatt's done in quite awhile but [spoiler alert]

I HATED the breakup/infertility storyline. It's something that could have been great and interesting but was, instead, reduced to a thirty-second plot device. Amy not being able to have kids as a result of what happened at Demon Run is a HUGE DEAL and there should have been hints of it before. I feel like Moffatt wants the payoff of big emotional moments but doesn't always put in the groundwork to get there.

_Sian_
09-03-2012, 06:03 AM
Okay. I tried to get the text the right colour to disappear again, but it wouldn't really work, so spoilers ahead...

*sigh* So very torn. I loved souffle girl and think she was the best thing Moffatt's done in quite awhile but [spoiler alert]

I HATED the breakup/infertility storyline. It's something that could have been great and interesting but was, instead, reduced to a thirty-second plot device. Amy not being able to have kids as a result of what happened at Demon Run is a HUGE DEAL and there should have been hints of it before. I feel like Moffatt wants the payoff of big emotional moments but doesn't always put in the groundwork to get there.


I agree. It could have added an awful lot of poignancy and depth. And it would have been interesting to see the Doctor try and figure out what to do with it all.

Kathleen42
09-03-2012, 06:24 AM
Okay. I tried to get the text the right colour to disappear again, but it wouldn't really work, so spoilers ahead...



I agree. It could have added an awful lot of poignancy and depth. And it would have been interesting to see the Doctor try and figure out what to do with it all.

Agreed. And that depth would have made the episode with the minotaur thing _so_ much more powerful because her faith would already have these huge cracks and the Doctor would have to deliver the final push.

With the exception of Adric, I think the Ponds may (because I haven't seen the entire classic series) have suffered the most from their relationship with the Doctor and it's rarely acknowledged. Heck, the Doctor seemed to care more about Martha's unrequited crush and the year that never was than what's happened to the Ponds.

Parametric
09-03-2012, 06:29 AM
It was also really hard to believe that they got all the way to signing divorce papers without ever having had a conversation about their relationship problems. Really? Not once? The conflict was so quickly and easily resolved that you're left wondering why they couldn't have talked for two minutes back when they first started having problems.

DavidBrett
09-03-2012, 06:53 AM
Yes, Oswin/Souffle Girl is the new companion. I don't know how Moff can do it without creating a paradox - going back to save her before she crashes, thereby stopping her from being there to save THEM - or doing it so the Doctor has to return her to her Dalek fate sooner or later.

I loved this episode on the whole - watched it with my girlfriend, who freaked out at the Dalek-zombies, and was amazed when I called the twist halfway through.

I love the Dalek-zombies as a thing, but don't like their creation in the slightest. The Daleks are the ultimate universal racial supremacists; there is nothing better than a pure/average Dalek to them; they even killed Dalek Sec - and he was 'born' part-human!

Why, then, would they program a nano cloud to turn other beings into Dalek drones? If they're not insane, why would they condone such a thing? Why go to all the effort and resources for 'inferior beings'? Even if the 'sane' Daleks knew the drones couldn't make it off the planet, they'd still be an affront to generations of ingrained mental conditioning.

On the other hand, I loved Oswin's part. I believe the Daleks converted her fully simply BECAUSE she was smart enough to do everything she could... BECAUSE they needed someone on site who was both a Dalek and sane (well, lucid) to be a warden of the asylum.

...even though by doing so, it's completely negated my dislike for the Dalek-zombies.

Dave

_Sian_
09-03-2012, 07:28 AM
Agree to a lot of the above. I actually *like* the ponds as a couple, they work well as a unit together, I think, so I would have liked to see them deal with all this.

mirandashell
09-03-2012, 05:48 PM
TBH, I wouldn't. I'm sick to death of their relationship. I'm glad they're gone.

Unfortunately, I don't like the new girl either. Good lord, she's smug. And that's one personality trait I don't like in anyone.

This might be the series that kills my love of the Doctor.....

HeavilyMedicated
09-03-2012, 07:50 PM
Hm. So I liked the episode on the whole and I like Oswin so far. The Amy/Rory relationship stuff felt forced, though. And yeah, what happened to Amy is a huge deal, but they just waved it away? Though they could bring it up again between now and their last episode.

Also, it seems predictable how the Doctor will get a non-Dalek Oswin. He's just going to go earlier into her timeline because timey wimey. (That's not overused or anything. :/)

DavidBrett
09-03-2012, 08:02 PM
TBH, I wouldn't. I'm sick to death of their relationship. I'm glad they're gone.

Unfortunately, I don't like the new girl either. Good lord, she's smug. And that's one personality trait I don't like in anyone.

This might be the series that kills my love of the Doctor.....

Fingers crossed Oswin was only smug due to her imagined cabin fever - don't forget, she had to lie to herself for an entire YEAR, or she'd go insane. If you found out you could do amazing technological things to the Daleks, wouldn't you assure yourself you were amazing, rather than face the awful truth...?

EMaree
09-03-2012, 08:08 PM
Personally, I never got 'smug' from Oswin -- just very confident, which is a trait I love. And she was a genius, so fair play to her, she was in her 'zone' and was proud of her skills.

mirandashell
09-03-2012, 09:08 PM
Well, the whole 'genius' thing didn't sit well either. How is she a genius, exactly? There was a massive plot hole in that she could somehow control all the doors and whatnot because she was plugged into the 'web' but the other Daleks didn't know what she was doing or how to stop her? Even though they are plugged into it as well? Like one Borg wouldn't know what another Borg is doing?

And why is making a souffle a figment of her imagination but bringing down the forcefield isn't? How does that work?

The whole episode just seemed incoherent to me. I'm guessing we were supposed to let all that slide because she 'tugged on our heartstrings'. Sorry, Moff. You are going have to be a lot less obvious than that to make me care for her.

Kathleen42
09-04-2012, 03:17 AM
Fingers crossed Oswin was only smug due to her imagined cabin fever - don't forget, she had to lie to herself for an entire YEAR, or she'd go insane. If you found out you could do amazing technological things to the Daleks, wouldn't you assure yourself you were amazing, rather than face the awful truth...?

Personally, I never got 'smug' from Oswin -- just very confident, which is a trait I love. And she was a genius, so fair play to her, she was in her 'zone' and was proud of her skills.

This. I'm not overly fond of smugness, but I didn't really get that from her.

mirandashell
09-09-2012, 12:55 AM
Hmmm... good fun but so derivative.

Robots that looked just like the good aliens from 5th Element. Dinosaurs from Jurassic Park. A plot I guessed about 5 mins in. And a massive death flag for Pond.

Like Brian though.

vfury
09-09-2012, 01:41 AM
Yeah, the minute Amy went on about being unable to adjust to normal life, I turned to my housemate and said, "She's going to die." I used to feel Rory would be devastated by Amy's death, but now I think he'll be okay, eventually, whereas vice versa, I don't think Amy would handle it well at all.

It was good to have Rupert Graves back on TV, and Mark Williams was great as Rory's dad. Also, bonus surprise robot voices!

Not Solomon Brown
09-09-2012, 01:44 AM
The robots reminded me of the ABC Warriors from 2000AD.

The big part (for me) was the Doctor letting Solomon die.
(Not because of my username).

vfury
09-09-2012, 01:48 AM
I missed a chunk of the end as I had to take a family phone call when everything started coming to a head. Explaining DW was on wasn't really an option, sadly.

mirandashell
09-09-2012, 01:49 AM
Where did you miss it from?

vfury
09-09-2012, 02:10 AM
Rory and his dad were piloting the spaceship! I have it recorded, so I'll have caught up in a few minutes. :)

Once Solomon killed the dinosaur, I knew it was going to end badly for him. All bets are off when you cross the Doctor like that.

BunnyMaz
09-09-2012, 08:10 AM
Correction, the Doctor didn't let Solomon die, he straight up murdered Solomon. Now, admittedly Solomon was utter scum, a mass murderer and genocidal narcissist and in TV world that means he deserves to die, but that doesn't make it appropriate for The Doctor of all people to act as his executioner.

Calla Lily
09-09-2012, 08:17 AM
Seems to me that they're deliberately trying to dark things up because Matt Smith is so perky.

Also, what's up with the sledgehammer foreshadowing? Sheesh.

I enjoyed the ep overall, even the cheap happy-happy resolution of Rory's dad finally respecting him.

HeavilyMedicated
09-09-2012, 10:26 PM
Correction, the Doctor didn't let Solomon die, he straight up murdered Solomon. Now, admittedly Solomon was utter scum, a mass murderer and genocidal narcissist and in TV world that means he deserves to die, but that doesn't make it appropriate for The Doctor of all people to act as his executioner.

I keep seeing people say this and I don't agree. He killed his own people (and the Daleks). He's whiny when other people try to use violence and acts like he's above it, but that doesn't make him so.

KimJo
09-09-2012, 11:04 PM
The Doctor has killed when it's been called for. I don't think it was called for in this case.

And was I the only one reminded of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy with those two robots? A smidgen of Marvin the Paranoid Android, a soupcon of Eddie the Shipboard Computer, a little bit of the way-too-perky doors...

Overall, not a big fan of this episode. I still don't understand why the Doctor brought the two random historical people into the deal ("I wanted a gang" just didn't do it for me as an explanation), and the whole concept of why the dinosaurs were even there didn't make sense to me. Hoping for better from next week's.

_Sian_
09-10-2012, 04:24 AM
No, I was confused as to why the two flirting historical figures where there too. They didn't really add much...

Priene
09-10-2012, 01:56 PM
Correction, the Doctor didn't

I thought that decision was morally wrong and extremely un-Doctorlike. I can't understand how that plot point made it into production.

_Sian_
09-10-2012, 02:04 PM
maybe it fits into that whole plot-line they had going on in "a good man goes to war" where "doctor" had become synonymous with the word warrior?

Although I don't see how that fits in given how he supposedly chose another way of doing things at the end of the last season... it's a theory though.

Priene
09-10-2012, 03:41 PM
maybe it fits into that whole plot-line they had going on in "a good man goes to war" where "doctor" had become synonymous with the word warrior?


I 'm intrigued with the whole 'warrior' thing - I like the idea of the Doctor's dark side. But I saw it as a straightforward execution. I wondered if maybe they'd made a late cut and hadn't noticed that it made the scene look that way.