What would a 10 be?

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jdparadise

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What would your 10 be?

Somehow I surfed to this link:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/07/how-to-get-from-a-7-to-a-10/.

In it, the author says (paraphrased) "Stuck at a 7? What would a ten be?"

His premise is that 7, or 10, is perception-related, and that if you're not always going for 10 you're allowing yourself to at best stagnate and at worst sink backward.

I found this to be a resonant and interesting thought--not new, by any stretch, but having it presented as such got me thinking. Being (as usual) in a writerly frame of mind, I also got to thinking this might be a profitable discussion to have here.

This is a two-parter, then; what do you consider a "10" to contain, and how do you need to change what you're doing to get your work to that standard?

I'm not saying that everyone's "10" should be the same; quite the opposite, actually. But I'm hoping that through thoughtful discussion of what everyone's "10s" are, we can be exposed to different aspects of the craft, or different facets of the same aspect.

All that said, I'll start, since it's my topic.

For me to consider my work a "10," my work would have to:

+ Regularly contain memorable--even jaw-dropping--images that evoke the emotions in the reader that I want to evoke.

Analysis: I'm too often settling for "good enough" in the images I choose. I need to put more work into the imagination phase of every aspect of my work's imagery -- from setting to character actions to "set pieces" and so on.

+ Contain dialog that readers will remember and quote, not just for its snappiness but for its applicability and timelessness

Analysis: I'm good at naturalistic dialog that communicates ideas, but my characters don't often spout memorable things. In part, I think it's because they're talking about their lives and the story, with limited applicability to the outside world. I'll need to examine my work to see if that's the case. If it is, and if that's the cause of the dialog being immemorable, I'll need to broaden the horizons of at least some characters. I think this might be -a- reason, but not -the- reason; I'll need to look at dialog I consider memorable and figure out what makes it so.

+ Contain characters who attain at worst reality, and at best a sort of hyper-reality, that causes them to live on in reader's minds well after the book is closed.

Analysis: My characters do come off as "real", to an extent. I'll need to sit down and figure out what gives that "hyper-reality" sense, though, in things that I read. My earlier post, on "big" characters, was a first stab at this; I need to continue in that vein. The circumstances in which characters find themselves add to their reality/hyper-reality; I need to figure out how that works.

There's more that I can ramble on with, but I'll leave some for others. Anyone else want to play?
 
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Arkie

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If you settle for 'good enough" as a writer, then you have accepted mediocrity as your standard.
 

jdparadise

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If you settle for 'good enough" as a writer, then you have accepted mediocrity as your standard.

That's the point the author (and I, through posting this) was making.

The question is: what consitutes a "10" as you see it, for your work? When would you have to do to get your work to be a "10", in an ideal world?
 

KCathy

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Finding "10" must be one of the most frustrating things a writer faces. I knew an honors student who told me once that he hated Composition classes because nobody can ever get 100% on a test like you can in Math. He's right. It might cause a near-fatal stroke because my brain is inherently disorganized (I prefer to think of it as multitasking), but I can study hard enough to ace a Math test. Writers, on the other hand, can always find something wrong with their work. And if they can't, the critics don't share their restraint. I can never bear to re-read the handful of articles I've published because I always find some little thing (or on a bad day, several gaping errors) to hate.

Ahem. Sorry for hijacking the post. For me to consider my work a 10:

- It would have to sell. I know it's arbitrary and Emily Dickinson didn't sell and current trends and bla bla bla, but there you have it. Making $60,000 for two books a year is my monetary goal. Yes, I know it's huge. This is 10 we're talking about, right?

- I'd have to like most of it most of the time. This one's even more arbitrary since I can hate the same chapter one day and think it's pretty darn awesome the next.

- It would convey the most meaning with the smallest number of words and simplest words available. It wouldn't be littered with over-used or over-wrought phraseology, but it wouldn't be distractingly abrupt.

- Readers wouldn't need to re-read a sentence to get it or notice what I was doing at all. They would say, "What a great story!" or "I'm going to miss having this book next time I sit down with a cup of cocoa." NOT "What a fantastic writer!" or "I love the way she uses words."

- Critics might not like me much or would describe me as catering to the lowest common denominator of entertainment, NOT because my writing was sloppy or second-rate, but because it wasn't "literary." My readers, on the other hand, would shed a tear, laugh, feel better about themselves, find courage, or even write me nice letters.

Geez, the more I think about this, the more I realize how much my goals depend on the reactions of others, something I can influence but not control. Talk about never getting 100% on a test! I'm also surprised to find that I want to entertain and enrich the lives of the proletariat instead of wowing the critics. Who knew?
 

PeeDee

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When people are halfway through my book, do a double take, and look at the cover and go "Oh! This isn't a Roger Zelazny/Gene Wolfe novel as I thought!" then my writing is a 10.

Mostly, I don't know. That's an interesting and one that, as the author of my own work, I'm probably least qualified to answer.
 

engmajor2005

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Ray Bradbury touched on the same subject (sort of) in Zen in the Art of Writing. His way of putting was that each author had their own personal best, and when a work reflected that personal best then it was "done." Of course, said writer could always extend their personal best, but they could not extend the quality of a given work past their personal best at the time it was written--at least that's how I understood it.

As for me, a "10" would be something that I'm ready to submit. If it's not a "10" it's a zero; plain and simple. There are no set standards for determing a "10" for me.

If the piece is rejected, then I was wrong. It's a zero and needs work.

Once it's accepted, then I tend to let it ride. No need fussing over history.
 

jdparadise

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Finding "10" must be one of the most frustrating things a writer faces...Writers, on the other hand, can always find something wrong with their work.

Not only that, but every time you get to where you -thought- would be a 10, you discover that it's really only another 7 in better clothes...

- It would have to sell. I know it's arbitrary and Emily Dickinson didn't sell and current trends and bla bla bla, but there you have it. Making $60,000 for two books a year is my monetary goal. Yes, I know it's huge. This is 10 we're talking about, right?

It's not the "10" I was thinking of--I was thinking of the work's components, rather than the end result, but it's an interesting starting point, because having such commercial aspirations says certain things about the work, which you sort of touch on below.

So what do you see as standing between you and that goal? Not the "finding an agent, selling a book" bit, but intrinsic in the work itself?

- I'd have to like most of it most of the time. This one's even more arbitrary since I can hate the same chapter one day and think it's pretty darn awesome the next.

What would it take to make you like it most of the time?

- It would convey the most meaning with the smallest number of words and simplest words available. It wouldn't be littered with over-used or over-wrought phraseology, but it wouldn't be distractingly abrupt.

- Readers wouldn't need to re-read a sentence to get it or notice what I was doing at all. They would say, "What a great story!" or "I'm going to miss having this book next time I sit down with a cup of cocoa." NOT "What a fantastic writer!" or "I love the way she uses words."

These are interesting! What can you do to work toward this goal, do you think?

My readers, on the other hand, would shed a tear, laugh, feel better about themselves, find courage, or even write me nice letters.

What do you think you can do in the work itself to encourage these things? What encourages these sorts of reactions in things you read?

Geez, the more I think about this, the more I realize how much my goals depend on the reactions of others, something I can influence but not control. Talk about never getting 100% on a test! I'm also surprised to find that I want to entertain and enrich the lives of the proletariat instead of wowing the critics. Who knew?

Hah!

The thing I'm realizing as I'm doing this exercise (I've explored two of 8 or so factors that are important to me as a reader, at this point) is that there are a -lot- of things that go into good writing. Being apt with a turn of phrase -really- isn't enough. And the annoying thing is that there are a thousand ways to do any one of the things that I want to do.

As a frex, here's -one- subcomponent of "imagery":

Innovation - I want things I've never seen in print or on screen before.
  • Don't settle for the first or second image that comes to mind. I have a vivid imagination; I need to use it.
  • This ties into memorableness - things that readers have seen before will not stick with them as being a uniquely JD Paradise thing. A perfect 10 would be (in a balanced fashion) so full of unique imagery that they'd walk away knowing it was me who wrote it.
Next step for me, after I puzzle through the rest of the categories and all their subcategories, is figuring out -how- to do these things reliably, and how to know when I've done them.

A writer's work is never done... :)
 

KiraOnWhite

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10 is when someone realizes how to put heart in his her story. :)
 

Raphee

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There is no "10."
I think the point being made is to aim for 10 and try to attain it.
That said once I feel satisfied with my work as the best I can do, that would be a 10. Hopefully once I've reached my 10 the proof would be publication and evaluation of my work as being a good read by the readers.
 

Hillgate

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I think you can always improve anything - nothing's perfect, a la maestrowork's post. I think that the key is knowing when you know you've put everything into it and have given it your best shot. We're all human (well, I hope we are anyway) and there has to come a time when you say 'that's it'. I think it is difficult for anyone to claim a 'ten' in their lifetime, which for me would be in creating one of the most seminal films or books of all time.

And all I can tell you is that I'm nowhere near that goal at the time of writing...
 

Shadow_Ferret

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I don't even know what a 10 would be? Who are considered the greatest writers in history? Shakespeare? Marlow? I don't know, but I know I'm nowhere near their league. I just try to write the best story I'm capable of and I'll let others worry about where it fits on some arbitrary numbering system.
 

Jamesaritchie

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settle

If you settle for 'good enough" as a writer, then you have accepted mediocrity as your standard.

I don't buy this for a second. "Perfect" is the enemy of Good Enough, and Good Enough is what stops writers from endlessly rewriting, revising, and editing to the point where all they're doing is procrastinating and stirring mud.

Good Enough and mediocre are not the same thing. Good Enough is simply the realization that no amount of work will ever make for perfection. Understanding what Good Enough is, and settling for it, is the mark of a good, experienced writer.
 

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I agree

I don't buy this for a second. "Perfect" is the enemy of Good Enough, and Good Enough is what stops writers from endlessly rewriting, revising, and editing to the point where all they're doing is procrastinating and stirring mud.

Good Enough and mediocre are not the same thing. Good Enough is simply the realization that no amount of work will ever make for perfection. Understanding what Good Enough is, and settling for it, is the mark of a good, experienced writer.

An artificial standard is worse than mediocrity....whatever that is. OMG, I can't define mediocrity! Oh dear. Hold on.

Well...to tell the truth, I give myself a 100% goodness rating whenever I can't finish a scene because I'm laughing too hard or when I say "Ah, that hits the effect I wanted..." and do manage to finish.

On the non-100% cases...I go back and rewrite or remove.
 

Judg

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What I'm striving for:
  • a compelling story
  • characters that stick in the mind long after the book is closed
  • short, evocative descriptions that effectively convey the atmosphere without making description-haters skim to the point where the story starts again
  • clear, simple language that is beautiful in its elegance
  • a theme that resonates
How to achieve these things? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

For a compelling story, I think the key is "conflict management", making sure that there is enough tension present to keep people reading. And having a central conflict they can care about.

Memorable characters. Hmm. They need to have some complexity and we have to get a sense of what drives them.

Descriptions I find work best when somebody does not try to paint the entire picture, but just points our attention to a salient detail or two that capture the atmosphere.

I am going to prune ruthlessly to achieve simplicity of language. Beauty? Hope I've got the talent, I guess.

As for the theme, I think that will arise rather naturally out of the preoccupations of the author.

I am certainly ready and willing to receive enlightenment on any of these points!
 

jdparadise

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I think the point being made is to aim for 10 and try to attain it.
That said once I feel satisfied with my work as the best I can do, that would be a 10. Hopefully once I've reached my 10 the proof would be publication and evaluation of my work as being a good read by the readers.

Hrm. For me, with my writing, this used to be my response. I'm finding it increasingly unsatisfying for myself, because it's so ill-defined. What -is- "the best I can do" and how do I know when I've reached it?
 

jdparadise

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Good Enough and mediocre are not the same thing. Good Enough is simply the realization that no amount of work will ever make for perfection. Understanding what Good Enough is, and settling for it, is the mark of a good, experienced writer.

Granting this, it's still true that Good Enough is only useful if a given piece really -is- Good Enough. Reading slush for the pub I read for, I assume every piece I receive is considered Good Enough by the writer . . . yet most of them are not nearly Good Enough for me to consider passing on to the rest of the gang for possible acquisition.
 

jdparadise

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For a compelling story, I think the key is "conflict management", making sure that there is enough tension present to keep people reading. And having a central conflict they can care about.

...all of which requires characters the reader cares about, because without character engagement the conflict is pointless, isn't it?

Descriptions I find work best when somebody does not try to paint the entire picture, but just points our attention to a salient detail or two that capture the atmosphere.

I had a sort of ancillary revelation today when I was thinking about this very point. You know how when you go on a date and the date is talking about themself to the point of nausea--s/he seems like s/he's lead an interesting life, and s/he's certainly attractive, and s/he does seem to care about your experiences, too, so it's not self-centeredness, but just . . . too much information all at once? And then there's that other date, who offers enough to be mysterious and interesting, who hints at depths greater than s/he talks about . . .

And you end up going home thinking about the second, not the first. S/he gave you room to let your imagination fill in the details - you may or may not be right, but the fact that s/he engaged you and your imagination makes him/her a more interesting person to you . . .

As for the theme, I think that will arise rather naturally out of the preoccupations of the author.

That's something else I've been dwelling on lately - the fact that we only have so many (however many that may be, one or a million and one) stories in us, and so much time to share them, and that I really need to be focusing on the themes and such that are really important to me, as opposed to writing things because I can.
 

Pagey's_Girl

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My 10? Jimmy Page.

What?

Sorry. Wrong topic. My bad...

Seriously, something that makes people want to keep reading. Something to make them laugh, make them think, maybe keep them on the edges of their seats a little. Something that, when they finish it, they'll think it was worthy of their time.

In other words, to tell stories worth telling...
 

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Granting this, it's still true that Good Enough is only useful if a given piece really -is- Good Enough. Reading slush for the pub I read for, I assume every piece I receive is considered Good Enough by the writer . . . yet most of them are not nearly Good Enough for me to consider passing on to the rest of the gang for possible acquisition.
But is that because the writer could have done better but just felt it was "Good enough for government work?" and stopped or is it a case of that IS the best that that writer could do? Not everyone is going to achieve a 10 no matter how much effort they put into it; they just don't have it in them.

It's like those singers on American Idol. They think they're the greatest thing this side of Frank Sinatra, but when they open their mouth you can't even recognize the tune. They can't HEAR how awful they are. Maybe these writers can SEE how awful they are.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Good Enough

Granting this, it's still true that Good Enough is only useful if a given piece really -is- Good Enough. Reading slush for the pub I read for, I assume every piece I receive is considered Good Enough by the writer . . . yet most of them are not nearly Good Enough for me to consider passing on to the rest of the gang for possible acquisition.

Sure, all writers believe their writing is Good Enough, else they wouldn't submit it. But those same writers could keep working on a piece until hell froze over, and their writing still wouldn't be good enough, let alone perfect.

There comes a point when any writer simply needs to let go and put the work on the market, and if he waits until the work is perfect, it's never going to happen. Good Enough is Good Enough when it's the best you can reasonably do.

And, really, I don't think many writers ever know when something is Good Enough. Only an editor or an agent can make this judgment. Writers are lousy at it.
 

Jamesaritchie

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It's like those singers on American Idol. They think they're the greatest thing this side of Frank Sinatra, but when they open their mouth you can't even recognize the tune. They can't HEAR how awful they are. Maybe these writers can SEE how awful they are.


I've always thought American Idol made for a good comparison with writing. But I think it's just as much hearing with writers as with singers. Writing is about sound, not sight. Most writers simply cannot hear the sour notes they make in their own writing. Worse, just like so many of the horrible singers on American Idol, far too many writers don't believe those who tell them they can't write.
 

Raphee

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Hrm. For me, with my writing, this used to be my response. I'm finding it increasingly unsatisfying for myself, because it's so ill-defined. What -is- "the best I can do" and how do I know when I've reached it?
You've reached it when it gets published and someone shells out their money to buy your book. That is the only vindication that with that one book, you've done the best you could and succeeded.
Otherwise as James said we would all be going around in circles looking to attain perfection that does'nt exist in the first place.
I'm pretty sure Shakespear or Stienbeck or Le Carre can write the same piece much better, if they try again.
 
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