The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America) [Archive] - Page 89

mreddin

06-04-2005, 08:17 AM

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Our books ship United States Postal Service Media Mail. For details, see the USPS website.

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Our books are non-returnable.

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All sales are final.

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Please allow 2 to 6 weeks from ordering to delivery on all orders placed without rush specifications.

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Domestic Shipping Charges are as follows:

*

$3.00, plus $.50 for each additional copy.

This is off PA's store website. USPS Media Mail is the cheapest way to send a book in the nation. Read it and learn: http://www.usps.com/consumers/domestic.htm#H6

Bottom line, PA is adding a 63% markup to the shipping fees in the 50 book senario. Even if the box weighed 50 pounds (which I doubt?!), the charge would be $16.84 anywhere in the continental United States. A single book weighing a pound or less would cost $1.42 to ship via media mail. This definately needs to go on the spreadsheet for income [made off authors primarily, since their the only ones really buying books].

Someone check my math please. Lets assume each book is 1 pound

Books / PA Charge / USPS Charge
1 / $3.00 / $1.42
2 / $3.50 / $1.84
4 / $4.50 / $2.68
8 / $6.50 / $4.24
20 / $12.50 / $7.84
50 / $27.50 / $16.84
70 / $37.50 / $22.84

Why is this interesting?

Books / PA Markup
1 / 111%
2 / 90%
4 / 67%
8 / 53%
20 / 59%
50 / 63%
70 / 64%

Notice the curve? Guess what folks, they get it coming and going. Those increasing percentages after 20 books is what they expect their own authors to pay, knowing only they will buy that quantity of books. (No bookstore would ever buy that many of ANY book, except in the rarest case of book signings by major bestselling authors or local celebrities). The curve gourges the casual family and friends buying your books in quantities of 1, then gouge you the author who is forced to buy 50+ books if they wish to obtain any reasonable discount level. This is presuming that each book is 1 pound. If your books weigh less, then the percentage increases since PA charges you per unit and not per weight.

It would not be fair though to poke PA for charging per unit, this is not unusual and for something like a book it's far easier to handle. However, don't believe for a minute that the curve is coincidental.

Want a different perspective? Books sold through their store is $16.95 on average. So to ship one book adds 17.6% to the retail cost. You the author, make 8% royalty on the net sale. PA will make $1.58 from shipping alone. You, the esteemed PA Author will make 95 cents on that sale from their online store. ($16.95 - $5 LSI print cost times 8% royalty). PA makes far more money by shipping books then you do for writing them. Damn, that makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it.

For further reference using Amazon...

Paperback: 201 pages
Publisher: PublishAmerica (April 11, 2005)
Language: English
Product Dimensions: 8.5 x 5.5 x 0.5 inches
Shipping Weight: 9.3 ounces.

Since this is paperback, digest format (instead of 6 by 9, aka Trade Format) and probably 50 pound stock, it's only 9 ounces. Since my average page count for PA books comes in just a tad higher, the average PA book is just a little over one half pound. Using this as an example, a box of 50 would come in around 29 pounds I believe, costing $10.54. This would result in
a $16.96 profit for PA, a markup of 160%!

Mike

ResearchGuy

06-04-2005, 08:44 AM

Where did he get his degree? Presumably from a diploma mill.

(The PAMB has a thread gushing all over "the good doctor" ... and casting envious glances at the $9.95 selling price of the book.)

--Ken

ResearchGuy

06-04-2005, 09:00 AM

What it said:
To celebrate your successes, we are offering bookstores a special discount deal that we also extend to any individual who needs books on hand: This offer covers all of our titles except full-color picture books:

*between 25-50 books: 40 pct discount
*between 51-100 books: 45 pct discount + a copy of How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz for free!
*between 101-200 books: 50 pct discount + a copy of How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz for free!
*201 or more books: 55 pct discount + a copy of How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz for free!

The offer expires June 10. Orders by phone only, at 301-695-1707.

What it meant:

To take advantage of you, we are flogging ... a bulk purchase deal ... to any individual who is still falling for our line of guff and still trying to sell direct: This solicitation covers all of our titles except those where the bite on our profit margin would be more than we want to live with:

*between 25-50 books: 40 pct discount from the inflated list price plus overpriced shipping
*between 51-100 books: 45 pct discount from the inflated list price plus overpriced shipping + a copy of our propaganda screed for free!
*between 101-200 books: 50 pct discount from the inflated list price plus overpriced shipping + a copy of our propaganda screed for free!
*201 or more books: 55 pct discount from the inflated list price plus overpriced shipping + a copy of our propaganda screed for free!

The offer expires June 10 so you do not have time to think about it and because we need money fast. ...

All, of course, in my humble opinion ...

--Ken

mreddin

06-04-2005, 09:55 AM

Tales of the "Soon to be Banned"

I figure there will be a whole page dedicated to "Info Center". It will be a blank page

I think someone poured the koolaide into the potted plant... ;)

Ed Williams

06-04-2005, 02:41 PM

...since Book Expo is the biggest book exposition in the world, and PA constantly touts their growth and number of authors, why aren't they there?

Diana Hignutt

06-04-2005, 03:32 PM

...since Book Expo is the biggest book exposition in the world, and PA constantly touts their growth and number of authors, why aren't they there?

A fair question Ed. As I am just back from the Javitz Center, I'll confirm that I saw no evidence of PublishAmerica at the convention. They did not exhibit (well, duh), and I saw no trace of them in attendance. Why not, you asked? Because, they ain't here to sell books to the industry. They don't want to sell books to the industry (booksellers, librarians). They want to sell books to their authors.

Now, if I may digress briefly...

It was fantastic meeting Jenna and her husband, Anthony. We (my wife, Liz and I) got to pal around with them for a little while. If there are more wonderful people somewhere, I don't know where they are. It was an honor. Jenna introduced us to Lauri at Nomad from the Ask the Editor forum here--she was super nice. We got to have lunch with another one of my heros, the incredible Dee Power, who did a fantastic job giving her speech at the ForeWord Book of the Year Awards. I got to renew my acquiantance with my publisher, Fred Price at Behler, and met our new marketing director, Pete. They've been busy this week meeting with industry peeps, working hard to sell my book (and other Behler books as well). Sadly, I did not win at the ForeWord Book of the Year Awards, but it was an honor to be named a finalist. I got to meet the very nice and talented Bill DeSmedt whose book Singularity earned the Gold in Science Fiction; but, I'm sure he will forever smile when he hears the name Diana Hignutt.

Back to the main point here...the Javitz Center was crammed full of publishing industry folks. It was hard to move around through the crowds. Yet, no where did I see any signs of Willem, Larry, or Moeranda. That says a lot, I think.

Diana Hignutt
author of Empress of Clouds (Behler), Finalist ForeWord Magazine's 2004 Book of the Year Award for Science Fiction, Semi-Finalist for the 2005 IPPY for Science Fiction/Fantasy (nope didn't win that either), and a 2005 Spectrum Award nominee (still alive there).

Jackie

06-04-2005, 05:28 PM

I do understand the anger, because PA is not upfront with their contract, but if you read between the lines, research and negotiate the contract is not the best but will do.

I am not getting 2 free books. I negotiated. My percentages are not 8% on the net. I negotiated. I did not negotiate the 7 years because my book is non-fiction so it will not be made into a movie, so I do not need to worry about that.

I just sent back my first proofs, after the initial editing. I was careful and had other people read it before I sent it back, trying to make it perfect. Yes, it was spell check, but I knew that in advance. So I cannot vouch for editing and cover art at this time.

I knew in advance that the book would not be on bookshelves across the country. That is why I have been doing pre-book release marketing. I have not spent a penny but lots of time which I hope pays off. I, unlike some PA authors want to sell more to just friends and family.

My goal is not just to be published, if it was than I would have self-published. My goal is to get noticed and I want that to happen because Spiritual Clarity has an important message to get out there. I just want to share my thoughts.

I went to school with a man who got a book published through Penguin Putnam and he has to do all the marketing himself also. After learning this, I submitted to PA, because I was one of the many who thought publishing companies did it all for you. They probably do, if you already are a proven author. But us newbies, have to work our way up.

The only complaint I can relate to is the price. They would not give me a staight answer on this. So I just figured it was their way of making money. I do not think I am very business savvy, but also assumed that the "marketing" they say they do, sending a letter to 100 friends is just a way to get money. But if your book is good enough it will sell anyway. Internet marketing is so vast, it is incredible and I know I have barely touched on the available resources.

Somone said that my returned proposal packages were sent back because I did not submit correctly. That is untrue, unless the Writer's Market has it wrong. I just now realize that my query and 1st page of the proposal were done incorrectly. The publishers just looked no further because of my ignorance about how to get their attention.

I honestly feel as if I am using them to get my book into distribution houses and local bookstores. The local stores, I have talked to and they will shelve it. I talked to them when I was already there so I cannot complain about the time and hard work invested there. I feel this is all a start and that is what I need, a start.

Who knows, maybe my book will not be a bestseller, but I feel better having written a book and gotten my message out there. So I do feel it is a use-use situation. I did not want to spend the time and money self-publishing. I have no money, I cannot work due to a spinal cord disease, so this is perfect for me. I will not be purchasing tons of my own books, that for some reason you think. Some people must do that. It must be the same folks who think PA signed them because they were a fantastic author. It is just hard for me to understand the hatred. If I made a mistake as all of you think, so be it. Maybe some other publisher will accept my next book. When a mistake is made then my attitude is to just move in another direction, not to be hateful.If I end up really hating PA, then I certainly do not see myself spending hours and hours PA bashing, I have better things to do.

Jackie Wellman
www.hoppy.bravehost.com (http://www.hoppy.bravehost.com)
http://spiritualclarity.blogspot.com

James D. Macdonald

06-04-2005, 05:29 PM

Nonsense about publishing comes from RJ Communications (http://www.milldirect.com/), The Publishing Game (http://www.publishinggame.com/), and Books Just Books (http://booksjustbooks.com/).

These fellows are all beating the drum pretty hard for self-publishing, which they, by a happy coincidence, are prepared to help you do (for a small fee).

Specific nonsense:

1. Publishers do no publicity unless for a book they think is going to be a blockbuster book. The author has to do his own. Fib! All publishers do marketing and publicity for all their books in order to earn back their investment in that book. If it looks like your book is taking off they can turn on a dime and start throwing extra money at it for front-of-store placement and the like.

2. Books have four months to make it or they are remaindered. Your masterpiece can be bought for a buck. Fib! The selling cycle for your book is around two years after it's printed, and will go longer if the public takes a shine to it. And what, exactly, is wrong with being bought for a buck?

3. 95% of books do not pay back their advance, meaning the author never earns any royalties. Fib! The actual number that don't earn out is between 70% and 75%, but in every case, the advance is an advance against royalties. When the author cashs that advance check he's gotten royalties right then. In advance. Publishers aim the advance to equal the royalties. What this number means is that the system is working. All that not earning out means is that the author got paid at a higher than contracted-for royalty rate.

4. It takes between two and three years for a book to reach the bookstore after it is accepted. So what? It takes time to edit a book, create a cover, send out review copies, do promotion and marketing, print and ship. You can see the fingerprints of the self-publishing enthusiasts on this one. Many publishers have two lists per year, spring and fall, and will position your book for best sales. They aim the book so it's not competing with other titles on their lists, or so that it's not competing with scheduled major releases from other houses. You're spending those years writing your next book(s). After the first one, if all's going well, you should have a new book out every year or two.

5. If the author's first book doesn't make a fairly large sales record, good luck on getting published again. Fib! Your first book sells what it sells. What you're aiming for is a second book that sells better than the first. Selling those first two books is fairly easy. What you don't want to see is a second book that sells worse than your first book.

"If you manage to get a reporters attention or are trying to get it, don't talk about the theme of your book. Talk about you and show him you can make an interesting story . He probably sees a dozen books for every review he does so the books aren't his main interest. Selling his editor a story is." says Joan Stewart, newspaper editor.

For anyone who's interested, Joan Stewart isn't a newspaper editor. She's a former newspaper editor (at places like The Sheboygan Press in in Sheboygan, Wisconsin) who will be happy to sell you, the newbie author, thousands of dollars worth of her publicity services (http://www.publicityhound.com/publicity/about.html). She's been out of the newspaper business for more than a decade.

She's not talking about regular book reviewers, either. When was the last time that you saw a professional review that was about the author rather than the theme of the book?

The question of why you'd want to bother with newspaper stories about you has to come up. If the hook of the story isn't "Joe Author has sold a ton of books," you aren't interested. At that point they'll come to you. It's pretty much wasted in any case: See the Gallup results a bit upthread. Newspaper stories vanish down in the single-digit percentages when you're looking at reasons people buy books.

Bottom line: Special interests feed nonsense to newbies in order to line their own pockets.

James D. Macdonald

06-04-2005, 05:44 PM

Hi again, Jackie.

I am not getting 2 free books. I negotiated.

Let me guess -- five copies?

My percentages are not 8% on the net. I negotiated.

But not a lot more, and not on cover price. Am I right?

I, unlike some PA authors want to sell more to just friends and family.

I presume you mean that you want to sell to more than just friends and family? I hope you'll drop back by a year after your book comes out and let us know how that worked out for you.

My goal is not just to be published, if it was than I would have self-published. My goal is to get noticed and I want that to happen because Spiritual Clarity has an important message to get out there. I just want to share my thoughts.

Presumably you also want to make some coin along the way? If you just wanted to share your thoughts you could just post 'em on a web page or in a blog.

I went to school with a man who got a book published through Penguin Putnam and he has to do all the marketing himself also.

That's a common misconception, even among new authors. Most of the marketing that publishers do is in places that the public doesn't see.

The only complaint I can relate to is the price. They would not give me a staight answer on this.

If you'll tell me how long your book is, I'll tell you their price.

But if your book is good enough it will sell anyway.

You aren't the first PA author to think this, and I doubt you'll be the last. Your book is non-competitive coming out of the gate, regardless of how good it is.

Somone said that my returned proposal packages were sent back because I did not submit correctly.

That was me -- and I was talking about the proposals that were returned unopened.

That is untrue, unless the Writer's Market has it wrong. I just now realize that my query and 1st page of the proposal were done incorrectly. The publishers just looked no further because of my ignorance about how to get their attention.

I don't know what to make of this. Presumably you know better now.

I feel this is all a start and that is what I need, a start.

You aren't the first to think this, either.

Who knows, maybe my book will not be a bestseller, but I feel better having written a book and gotten my message out there.

I know. Your book won't be a bestseller. Don't you think, if it were possible, that someone among the 13,000 happy authors would have managed by now?

If I end up really hating PA, then I certainly do not see myself spending hours and hours PA bashing, I have better things to do.

I don't think of it as "bashing." I think of it as "telling the truth" and "warning the newbies."

Arkie

06-04-2005, 05:46 PM

That PA makes money off the shipping fees is old hat. I believe it surfaced on the PA boards about a year ago, and I may have been me that put it up there, since I was charged $26.00, to have 50 books shipped by UPS ground from the New Jersey shipping point to Arkansas. My book is one of those 6X9, 245 pages, and weighs about 9 ounces. PA made about an extra $10.00 off me to add to the $500.00 I paid for the books.

I doesn't concern me that much. I have gotten used to publishers and printers trying to rip me off. This week I received two queries by mail and one e-mail wanting my next book. One wants $1,895, for a modest printing. I believe they said they would give me 20 free books.

I am sending off queries in various forms to agents and publishers. I see now that some publishers are asking for disposable manuscripts. A double-spaced, one side, one-inch margin, courier, 12-point font, manuscript printed at my local Office Max is $33.00. Some agents/publishers want a synopsis (2 page only, 6 page only, and etc.) Some want the first three chapters (non-returnable of course), some want the first five pages (must have read Noah Lukeman's book), some want the first 50 pages, all disposable.

I am well over $200.00 in postage and printing fees for my second book, and am just finishing up the third. I figure an aspiring writer spending money to try to find a book deal is just part of the business. We are in a business where supply far outweighs demand, and if you are the suppliee, I think one must expect to get ripped now and then.

cwgranny

06-04-2005, 06:13 PM

My goal is not just to be published, if it was than I would have self-published. My goal is to get noticed and I want that to happen because Spiritual Clarity has an important message to get out there. I just want to share my thoughts.

And unfortunately, that simply won't happen beyond those you force the book onto. There is NOTHING PA has done for you that couldn't have been done just as well by Lulu and some thing that could have been done better...sure, you didn't spend anything. But because PA is going to try to get the vanity cost from the handful of people you push toward them to buy the book -- the price will be so high that most will turn and walk away. MOST. As in nearly all.

For every single person who came here saying, "I am going to 'use' PA just like they will 'use' me" -- they could have used Lulu and come out better. Why?

1. Lulu doesn't have PA's ever growing reputation -- no one will stop you in the middle of your promotion of a Lulu book and ask you why you went with a scam publisher. People do that to PA authors with disquieting frequency.

2. With Lulu, you could have set the price to be competitive. And price does matter. You may not realize that and may have believed the PA crap about how a good book will sell at any price but even PA itself knows that's crap. That's why the new "Ra-Ra-PA" book costs $10. Even with a captive audience, they knew price matters.

3. If your promotional efforts BEGIN to bear fruit and a real publisher takes an interest (which does sometimes happen with self-published books) -- you could simply sell them your Lulu book. That cannot happen with PA -- you've got a contract. If you could promote a PA book with anything other than crash and burn failure (meaning you manage to sell around 1000 books like the tiny handful of very very top sellers at PA though the years), you could promote a self-published book with significantly more success. For each PA you book you manage to push, you probably would have sold ten self-published books and about 500 with a traditional publisher. You say you're being completely realistic -- that probably means you're hoping for the self-published numbers. Unfortunately, even PA authors who have gotten NATIONAL exposure haven't gotten those numbers.

PA LOVES people who go in thinking they will "use" PA just like PA used them because they know folks like that have too much ego to join the fray once they realize that only one side got used. They know (from experience) that you'll just quietly slink away. Sure, eventually personal honor may force you to mumble to someone thinking of signing with PA that it's probably not a good deal but as a public face, they believe it just won't happen.

You know who else signed with PA intending to use them? H.B.Marcus. I saw his early posts -- from his first sign on. If he hadn't been so full of himself then, he could probably have retained some scrap of self-respect instead of turning himself into a laughing stock of the publishing world. You clearly are brighter than Marcus, chances are you'll just quietly admit defeat at some point and disappear. That's what PA is counting on...but they sure hope they get their 75 books first.

As much as I honestly truly do admire a "can-do" attitude, the truth is that an ant really can't move a rubber tree plant. And the time he invests in trying is taking him away from successfully doing a lot of other things.

gran

KathieM

06-04-2005, 06:17 PM

Ed Williams

06-04-2005, 06:59 PM

...and an excellent point. If you look really hard at PA, the money always flows from the author outwards, not the other way around. The author invests hundreds of dollars in books, then receives five or ten buck royalty checks in return. The paying for ones' own copyright should be the first indication that something is a tad amiss with our friends up in Fredrick.

P.S. Looks like Shemp got his feathers ruffled again (doncha love my bird analogies), and more good people yet again find themselves banned from the PA boards. Here's a simple mathematical equation that will always ring true:

Getting more attention than HB = GONE!

Jaws

06-04-2005, 07:05 PM

I don't understand why PA authors continue to say that they didn't have to pay a dime to have their books published, when they have to pay the $35 copyright registration fee. I may be a novice about the publishing business, but don't traditional publishers pay to have your book copyrighted when you sign a contract with them?

That was one of the things that bothered me the most when I was considering PA as a publisher. Why should I have to pay the copyright fee, when PA get's all of the rights, for SEVEN YEARS?
Yes, commercial (the word "traditional" is essentially meaningless in this context) publishers do file and pay for copyright registrations. That's the way the Copyright Office prefers it: The error rate on registration paperwork is quite a bit lower from publishers than from authors.

And no, you certainly shouldn't have to pay that $30 fee if PA is claiming to hold those rights for seven years, including the 90-day timely registration window.

Jaws

06-04-2005, 07:12 PM

Nonsense about publishing comes from RJ Communications (http://www.milldirect.com/), The Publishing Game (http://www.publishinggame.com/), and Books Just Books (http://booksjustbooks.com/).
On the other hand, some of these sites can be good informational tools for one specialized purpose: Comparison shopping. On my website, I maintain a printing-cost estimator (http://www.authorslawyer.com/l-print0.shtml) (OK, I know, it's due for update this month) that draws from two of those sites (among others). I've found that RJ Communications and BooksJustBooks are pretty reliable measures of the 70th percentile of job-level printing costs, and sometimes (depending on the size of the print run and locations involved) can be a good deal, not just a middling one.

It's particularly educational to compare the list price of PA books to the estimated printing cost, especially as print runs grow. Snicker.

Arkie

06-04-2005, 07:43 PM

KathieM: Actually you can become published with PA without requesting the $30.00 copyright. PA requests that you secure the copyright and send them a copy; however, in many cases (mine included) the book was already published before I obtained my copyright confirmation from the U.S. registry. So technically, PA will print your book for nothing. I seriously doubt that they have the administrative ability to track who sends copies of copyrights and who doesn't. If your business model is to print and sell books to authors, why give a hoot about copyright protection anyway?

James D. Macdonald

06-04-2005, 07:52 PM

We know Willem, Larry, and Miranda read this board, but they may not get out of this thread too often. So here's another thread that they ought to read (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13536).

ResearchGuy

06-04-2005, 07:58 PM

...If your business model is to print and sell books to authors, why give a hoot about copyright protection anyway?
Because, I would wager, the registration of the copyright secures PA's right to sue the author for infringing his or her own copyright in violation of the contract.

Without the registration of the copyright, PA would be hobbled in any attempt to enforce the contract because it is registration that assures the right to sue.

See http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#cr. In part: "Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U. S. origin." They want you to register and provide proof so that THEY can sue YOU if you make other arrangements to get your work out.

All in my layman's opinion.

--Ken

astonwest

06-04-2005, 08:13 PM

There may well be a movie.

Now tell me anyone who would not go to see a movie about this company?

If anyone was looking at a great story for a movie this is it.

I could see it as a movie...
maybe a made-for-TV mini-series...
Crime shows are hot on TV right now...

Bottom line, PA is adding a 63% markup to the shipping fees in the 50 book senario. Even if the box weighed 50 pounds (which I doubt?!), the charge would be $16.84 anywhere in the continental United States. A single book weighing a pound or less would cost $1.42 to ship via media mail. This definately needs to go on the spreadsheet for income [made off authors primarily, since their the only ones really buying books].

My book, 109 pages, 5.9 oz.
50 copies would be around 18.5 lbs.

It fits in a 6 x 9 catalog envelope, and can ship anywhere within the states in 3 days, via USPS first class, for $1.52. There's no mistake they make a ton on shipping charges.

My percentages are not 8% on the net. I negotiated.
...
The only complaint I can relate to is the price. They would not give me a staight answer on this. So I just figured it was their way of making money.

They once gave me an answer, way back when, when I first mentioned my concerns over the price. They said that they based it on "what the customer is willing to pay."

That pretty much says it all, I think...

Jean Marie

06-04-2005, 08:15 PM

Jim, do you think she's related to ShAmpster?
Oh, by the way, I've been banned againhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smileyflag.gifAh well, time to move on anyway while I work on my new ms. I also have an aversion to sinking ships, even though I adore the water. No matter, PA probably didn't appreciate my lack of contributions to their coffers. I remained steadfast in not purchasing my books; call me crazy, but, I always thought that was the responsibility of the bookstore/readers. And as long as Borders continues to stock my book in the Fairfield store, then I haven't completely lost my self-respect. And when I feel down, I can drive on over and look at it on the one endcap it will remain on. I did just that the other day and walked away with my chin up, knowing that at least I was able to get it into one store. It's a great feeling to know I've got a home store with an awesome staffhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonhi.gifwho are so supportive of me and my efforts w/ my new ms.
Talk about a contradiction in terms; I receive so much from Borders and absolutely nothing from PA! A great big nada!!! They give their authors zip in return for their efforts. We do ALL the promotion and they sit on their collective butts laughing while an office gopher runs to the bank with bulging deposits they've received from authors purchasing their own books.
It's sad to watch so many new authors believe the hype and fork over their hard earned money to no avail.
I wish I'd known about the no return policy before I signed the contract. I also wish I hadn't fallen for the cr*p about my book being on every shelf coast to coast.

writerjenn

06-04-2005, 08:24 PM

Not sure which post you're referring to Ed (being two hours behind, I always miss the good stuff), but I did see the twit over there going on about hen-jacking. (shakes head) I really do have a hard time looking at anything he's posted. That ridiculous picture scares the bejeeezus outta me and I don't want to have nightmares tonight!

Jenn

...Getting more attention than HB = GONE!

Jaws

06-04-2005, 08:27 PM

Because, I would wager, the registration of the copyright secures PA's right to sue the author for infringing his or her own copyright in violation of the contract.
I'm afraid (or glad, actually) that's incorrect. Unless the actual copyright was transferred to the publisher, no copyright cause of action exists against the copyright holder. (Technically, not even between copyright holders to the same book!) There might be a breach of contract cause of action, but that is completely distinct from (and irrelevant to) the copyright cause of action.

writerjenn

06-04-2005, 08:28 PM

LOL Jean Marie, you are doing well despite PA and that is something to be proud of!

I've got french vanilla coffee perking and cinnamon raisin bagels for breakie. No chocolate this morning, but I'll gladly share my strawberry jam if you need comfort food!

Jenn

Jim, do you think she's related to ShAmpster?
Oh, by the way, I've been banned againhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smileyflag.gifAh well, time to move on anyway while I work on my new ms. I also have an aversion to sinking ships, even though I adore the water. No matter, PA probably didn't appreciate my lack of contributions to their coffers. I remained steadfast in not purchasing my books; call me crazy, but, I always thought that was the responsibility of the bookstore/readers. And as long as Borders continues to stock my book in the Fairfield store, then I haven't completely lost my self-respect. And when I feel down, I can drive on over and look at it on the one endcap it will remain on. I did just that the other day and walked away with my chin up, knowing that at least I was able to get it into one store. It's a great feeling to know I've got a home store with an awesome staffhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonhi.gifwho are so supportive of me and my efforts w/ my new ms.
Talk about a contradiction in terms; I receive so much from Borders and absolutely nothing from PA! A great big nada!!! They give their authors zip in return for their efforts. We do ALL the promotion and they sit on their collective butts laughing while an office gopher runs to the bank with bulging deposits they've received from authors purchasing their own books.
It's sad to watch so many new authors believe the hype and fork over their hard earned money to no avail.
I wish I'd known about the no return policy before I signed the contract. I also wish I hadn't fallen for the cr*p about my book being on every shelf coast to coast.

James D. Macdonald

06-04-2005, 08:29 PM

Jim, do you think she's related to ShAmpster?

Nah, just a typical hopeful newbie. Hang around a while, you'll see the same again and again. The faces and names change, the story doesn't.

Oh, by the way, I've been banned again.

You naughty girl! What did you do this time to make them send you to bed without supper?

Ah well, time to move on anyway while I work on my new ms.

A wise decision.

It's sad to watch so many new authors believe the hype and fork over their hard earned money to no avail.

Yeah. That's what drives me frantic.

I wish I'd known about the no return policy before I signed the contract. I also wish I hadn't fallen for the cr*p about my book being on every shelf coast to coast.

Lots of people who've heard about the non-return policy don't realize exactly how deadly it is. They may even buy PA's story that a non-return policy is a good thing. Weasel words, smoke and mirrors. That's PA's business plan in a nutshell.

Ken Schneider

06-04-2005, 08:30 PM

And as long as Borders continues to stock my book in the Fairfield store, then I haven't completely lost my self-respect. And when I feel down, I can drive on over and look at it on the one endcap it will remain on. I did just that the other day and walked away with my chin up, knowing that at least I was able to get it into one store.

Jean Marie,
Did the same, but, took my books away, and asked them not to stock or sell anymore, and why. They were shocked that a publishing company would operate in such a shady manner. They don't want to stock books from a company that is false and misleading. They do stock vanity books,ie. I' Uni and others, because they know the books are vanity. They assured me no more of "THAT" publishers books would ever be on their shelves. I left with my chin up proud that "THAT" publisher wouldn't make anymore money from the locals.
Bonus was they became aware of the companies workings.

Jean Marie

06-04-2005, 08:39 PM

Jenn, I want chocolate!

Jim, I've no idea why I was banned, unless it had to do with IT.

Kas, I understand your point, however, I will not allow my first book, Threads in Time to die. It sells well, I'm getting great responses, I'm building a readership, albeit small and my name is becoming known. It sets the stage well for my next book which I pray will be taken by a REAL traditional publisher and it speaks to what I've accomplished against all odds. It tells my future agent/publisher that I can/will succeed regardless and I'm not easily put off.
That's not to say you're wrong or I'm right; it's an individual choicehttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Ken Schneider

06-04-2005, 08:39 PM

Sorry, but I just realized that PA.er's can make more money in one hours work than in a whole royalty period.

Anyone interested can contact me for a piece of the action. I'll give you fifty percent of the profit.

You mow the neighbor ladies grass for me and I'll split the thirty bucks with you.

Sound fair?

Or P.A.ish?

Diana Hignutt

06-04-2005, 08:49 PM

Jackie says:

I do understand the anger, because PA is not upfront with their contract, but if you read between the lines, research and negotiate the contract is not the best but will do.

Will do for what? What, specifically are your goals? In what way, do you think, can a PA book help reach those goals?

I just sent back my first proofs, after the initial editing. I was careful and had other people read it before I sent it back, trying to make it perfect. Yes, it was spell check, but I knew that in advance. So I cannot vouch for editing and cover art at this time.

Well, they added mistakes to my book. My bio on the book was changed from: "she enjoys visiting the state's peerless beaches" to "pierless beaches." Makes me sound like I have a morbid fear of boardwalks or something. There were a few other wonderful things. But, good luck.

I knew in advance that the book would not be on bookshelves across the country. That is why I have been doing pre-book release marketing. I have not spent a penny but lots of time which I hope pays off. I, unlike some PA authors want to sell more to just friends and family

Hmm, back when I signed with PA they claimed my book would be available in bookstores from sea to shining sea. I was a newbie. I wasn't online at all. I had a scam agent tell me this was a legitimate, royalty-paying publisher, who advised me that this was the best deal I was likely to get for a first novel. PublishAmerica said they believed in my work. They claimed to be selective. Why wouldn't I believe that my book would be on bookstore shelves? Why wouldn't anyone?

Your marketing efforts will fail. I'm sorry. I wish I was wrong, but I'm not. No effort you put into a PA book can make a difference. Many before you have tried hard too.

My goal is not just to be published, if it was than I would have self-published. My goal is to get noticed and I want that to happen because Spiritual Clarity has an important message to get out there. I just want to share my thoughts.

Well, I gues you'll get your book back in seven years to try again if you consider the message important.

How specifically do you think this book will get you noticed?

But if your book is good enough it will sell anyway.

That's just not true. I'm sorry to sound harsh here. I really am. And, God willing, you will prove me wrong, and be the first out of 13,000 authors to make the PA model work for you. PA hinders you at every turn.

I honestly feel as if I am using them to get my book into distribution houses and local bookstores. The local stores, I have talked to and they will shelve it. I talked to them when I was already there so I cannot complain about the time and hard work invested there. I feel this is all a start and that is what I need, a start.

If by getting your book into distribution houses you mean having it listed in wholesalers' Ingram and Baker & Taylor's databases with short discounts, the words "Print On Demand", and "Not Returnable" listed right there besides the inevitable bad cover art of your book, then yes. And yes, some local bookstores will try to stock your book--some stores have reported the difficulty of ordering from PA though.

I fear this start will end in heartbreak for you, Jackie. And you will be forced to start again.

I will not be purchasing tons of my own books, that for some reason you think. Some people must do that. It must be the same folks who think PA signed them because they were a fantastic author. It is just hard for me to understand the hatred.

Understanding the hatred is easy for me. I feel it. I was told that PA was a real publishing company, that my books would be in stores, that if I "got the ball rolling on the local level, we can take your book national". They lied. They stole my book under false pretence. Yes, you can say that they never actually promise to do anything, but they imply the h*ll out of it. That's deceitful. They never told me that they offer bad discounts, non-returnable books, and made it as hard as possible for booksellers to order from them. Why? Because they make more money selling to their authors. I poured my soul into my first book and it was a good book. They stole it. I took it back. But they've done this to 13,000 authors now. That's evil. That's why I hate them. Make any kind of sense to you?

If I made a mistake as all of you think, so be it. Maybe some other publisher will accept my next book. When a mistake is made then my attitude is to just move in another direction, not to be hateful.If I end up really hating PA, then I certainly do not see myself spending hours and hours PA bashing, I have better things to do.

No, I have nothing better to do than to warn people about PublishAmerica, frankly. I consider warning folks about evil scammers an activity to be intensely proud of. Do I have other things to do? You betcha. Lots of them. Writing my next book is way up there.

Jackie, I honestly wish you luck. Please believe that. I've thought just like you do, at one time. Remember that. But, these people who are running PublishAmerica are bad people, who make their living lying and cheating people. Why should their dealings with you prove any different?

By all means, prove me wrong.

diana

ResearchGuy

06-04-2005, 08:49 PM

I'm afraid (or glad, actually) that's incorrect. Unless the actual copyright was transferred to the publisher, no copyright cause of action exists against the copyright holder. (Technically, not even between copyright holders to the same book!) There might be a breach of contract cause of action, but that is completely distinct from (and irrelevant to) the copyright cause of action.
Ok.

Then how about this, Jaws: if the copyright has not been registered, would it not be an easy evasion (done with a wink and a nod, off the record) for the author to instigate republication by someone else? Yes, it would be a copyright infringement (and a difficult-to-prove if not impossible-to-prove contract violation). But with no registration, neither the author nor PA (to whom rights have been contracted) could sue for the infringement. But it would not (not visibly in any event) be a violation of contract by the author.

PA would have a case against the author for failure to carry out a term of the contract (registration of the copyright), but it is not clear that there would be any demonstrable monetary damages and hence any value in such a suit except to make an example of the author (in turn garnering a lot of nasty publicity).

For those whose interest is in making the book available, not to profit from sales, the lack of copyright registration could allow for a loophole. The author could throw up his or her hands in mock despair and say, "Oh, darn! I forgot to register the copyright!" -- and then dawdle about belated registration.

Sure, there would be a lot of snarkiness in all of that ... but moreso than in PA's methods? And of course a suit, even if doomed to failure, could impose substantial expense on the republisher ... which might be the big, nasty, buzzing fly in the ointment.

The above is musing (crackpot musing, if you like), not legal advice or analysis. What makes it fun, so to speak, is that, unlike with a normal publisher-author relationship, PA is the author's adversary, not his or her partner. Their interests do not align. Somehow, that would seem to have implications.

--Ken

writerjenn

06-04-2005, 08:54 PM

Sorry JM, I ate the last chocolate chip muffin for breakfast yesterday :DIt was really good too!
I figure an hour to wake up, and THEN I'll be looking for a little of the good stuff.
Or a lot of it.

Jenn

Jenn, I want chocolate!

NancyMehl

06-04-2005, 09:01 PM

Who knows, maybe my book will not be a bestseller, but I feel better having written a book and gotten my message out there. So I do feel it is a use-use situation.

Jackie Wellman
www.hoppy.bravehost.com (http://www.hoppy.bravehost.com/)
http://spiritualclarity.blogspot.com (http://spiritualclarity.blogspot.com/)

Jackie,

I wish you luck, you'll need it. If these people are the kind of people you want to work with, that's your choice.

However, I need to warn you that PA does not want your book to succeed in the marketplace. They want you to order copies from them and sell them yourself. This is their model. They want their money upfront. If you begin dealing with distributors who expect to pay for the books on a 30, 60 or 90 day credit situation (like bookstores and other commercial venues) PA will drop you like a hot potato. Trust me. I know.

I hope you do well, but to be honest, I think you're in for a lot of disappointment.

Nancy

mreddin

06-04-2005, 09:11 PM

because my book is non-fiction so it will not be made into a movie, so I do not need to worry about that.

Um, look at this please:

http://www.holtuncensored.com/members/index.html

"The Prize Winner goes to the Movies"

TracySutterer & GaryRogers

06-04-2005, 09:19 PM

Well, here we go again. It is Saturday and like clockwork the PublishshAmerica Bookstore / Ordering Page is Down - again. See Below:

Books

ADODB.Recordseterror '800a0e7d'

The connection cannot be used to perform this operation. It is either closed or invalid in this context. /shopping/shop$db.asp, line 923

I wonder if the guy who has his book in "Pre-Release" and is offering it up for $9.95 is pissed?

It is Saturday - The Bookstore is down for the count - Like Clockwork...

Argile Stox

mreddin

06-04-2005, 09:20 PM

1. Publishers do no publicity unless for a book they think is going to be a blockbuster book. The author has to do his own. Fib! All publishers do marketing and publicity for all their books in order to earn back their investment in that book. If it looks like your book is taking off they can turn on a dime and start throwing extra money at it for front-of-store placement and the like.

Jim, this still begs the question. What can an author do to help ensure they capitalize on a publisher's marketing plan. I saw advice that when querying an agent, you should answer the question "How do you plan on supporting the marketing of this book." Well, I know what I'd do if self publishing, but not sure the best course of action as just the author. You seem to say that the author should not be doing anything, yet I've seen over on other writer sites that more than a few midlisters take the bull by the horns and try to muster additional press and publicity for their book (while writing the next one of course.) So what do you do as an author?

Mike

James D. Macdonald

06-04-2005, 09:32 PM

Jim, this still begs the question. What can an author do to help ensure they capitalize on a publisher's marketing plan. I saw advice that when querying an agent, you should answer the question "How do you plan on supporting the marketing of this book."

This is getting kinda far afield from PA, but here goes:

Way back when, with my first adult novel, I visited the publisher's office. My editor took me over to the publicity side of the house to meet the guy assigned to my book. I shook his hand and said, "What can I do to help?" He said, "That's what I like to hear."

What I've done:

Made sure local libraries had copies of my book.
Given the publicity guys the addresses of newspapers and magazines that might not be on their master lists -- small, local, specialized places.
Gone to conferences and conventions and left piles of free books lying around; spoken there.
Answered the phone when the publisher's publicity guys arranged radio interviews.
Gone to bookstores when the publisher's publicity guys arranged signings.
Gone on-line and chat with folks (I'm doing that right this instant).
Maintained a web page.
Written more books.

Well, I know what I'd do if self publishing, but not sure the best course of action as just the author. You seem to say that the author should not be doing anything, yet I've seen over on other writer sites that more than a few midlisters take the bull by the horns and try to muster additional press and publicity for their book (while writing the next one of course.) So what do you do as an author?

Mike

My personal opinion is that most of that publicity and marketing by authors is just to give them something to do with their hands so they won't fret about things not under their control. It's like a golfer wearing his lucky hat: Might help, can't hurt.

I talked a bit about this back here: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4235

CJWilkes

06-04-2005, 09:34 PM

Ken Schneider

06-04-2005, 09:53 PM

It is Saturday - The Bookstore is down for the count - Like Clockwork... Argile Stox

Which more than likely means they're updating the page.

Crappy day to do that.

T42

06-04-2005, 09:56 PM

I honestly feel as if I am using them to get my book into distribution houses and local bookstores. The local stores, I have talked to and they will shelve it. I talked to them when I was already there so I cannot complain about the time and hard work invested there. I feel this is all a start and that is what I need, a start.

Jackie Wellman
www.hoppy.bravehost.com (http://www.hoppy.bravehost.com/)
http://spiritualclarity.blogspot.com
Jackie, I wish you the best of luck with your book and yes, hatred doesn't always get the issue solved but I can remember a time when you showed some against me because I had an opinion about PA. I am allowing you your opinion and hoping the best for you. I am sorry that PA takes advantage of people like yourself that can't get out and really promote their books but it wouldn't matter. They don't want you to be successful and that is sad but if you can prove me wrong on that then I say Good For You and Go For It.
Mem

Ken Schneider

06-04-2005, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by Jackie
I honestly feel as if I am using them to get my book into distribution houses and local bookstores.

Well, this is the dream we are speaking of here, the one that gets busted like a beer bottle over the head at 2:30 a.m.. It is called the hopefilled honeymoon stage. The divorce is in the works I assure you.

Been there, done that, found out what all have said above. Got pissed. Told P.A. so.

Paid 1,574.00 for 150 books. My cost, 9.98 a piece. Gave a bunch away, sold a bunch, lost money. Got my royalty check for 16.95, P.A.'s sales contribution, less my 80 or so names. Total sales from 8-04-04, around thirty books not of my purchasing. Thanks P.A. for your hard effort at sales on your end. I would think they would make more money if they pushed my book. Hum, go figure.

If they don't get books in B.M. bookstores, only online stores with thousands upon thousands of others, who is their target sales audience? I'm lost on that one.

By the way, keep sending those e-mails. Nice new sales scam you have going on now. Why don't you send that e-mail to the bookstores who are suppose to buy books, instead of authors who write them. I don't want to buy any, I wrote it, I know the story. Sell it to someone who hasn't read it.

mreddin

06-04-2005, 10:49 PM

I will not be purchasing tons of my own books, that for some reason you think. Some people must do that.

Statistically speaking Jackie, it appears PA authors on average purchase 135 of their own books, costing them $1,368, plus $65 average for shipping (of which $45 is pure profit for PA). Spread this across "13,000 happy authors" (in the averages, as we know some will buy 0 copies of their own book) and PA nets $545,000 just by shipping books to authors. The net booksales to authors runs around $698 per author. This makes companies like iUniverse a bonafide bargin. My only point Jackie, that "some" authors is really "most" authors will buy large volumes of their own books and this is where PA makes the majority of their income. This is one of the reasons why bookstores and reviewers dismiss PublishAmerica and its authors. They see you as a scam victim and hence will not regard your book in the same light if you went through any other source. If you overcome this, again more power to you. Our purpose here is to prevent heartache and steer hopefulls in the right direction. In this task we cannot help but point out the company's many faults and shortcomings.

For the record, I've had no dealings with PA. I just don't like con artists and don't like seeing people get hurt by them. I don't have the wisdom of most of the author's here, so I'm tackling the problem from the business/financial perspective to demonstrate how PA is not a "traditional" publisher.

Mike

mreddin

06-04-2005, 10:54 PM

Paid 1,574.00 for 150 books. My cost, 9.98 a piece. Gave a bunch away, sold a bunch, lost money. Got my royalty check for 16.95, P.A.'s sales contribution, less my 80 or so names. Total sales from 8-04-04, around thirty books not of my purchasing.

Changling, what was the retail price and page count of your book? So 80 friends/family bought your title from PA's online store and 30 to the trade? (Adding your numbers to my spreadsheet.) :)

Mike

Ken Schneider

06-04-2005, 11:16 PM

Changling, what was the retail price and page count of your book? So 80 friends/family bought your title from PA's online store and 30 to the trade? (Adding your numbers to my spreadsheet.) :)

Mike

No, 13 from the 80, rest from online or bookstore ordering. Total 30, not all paid as yet.

Book. 19.95- can be purchased online at 16.95 + 3.00 shipping- 19.95 lol. Don't buy it.

186 pages.

55,589 word count.

T42

06-04-2005, 11:24 PM

For the record, I've had no dealings with PA. I just don't like con artists and don't like seeing people get hurt by them. I don't have the wisdom of most of the author's here, so I'm tackling the problem from the business/financial perspective to demonstrate how PA is not a "traditional" publisher.

MikeWell Said!
By the way, keep sending those e-mails. Nice new sales scam you have going on now. Why don't you send that e-mail to the bookstores who are suppose to buy books, instead of authors who write them. I don't want to buy any, I wrote it, I know the story. Sell it to someone who hasn't read it.
:Clap:

PVish

06-05-2005, 12:26 AM

We find this:

With the author's consent, the company will donate an allotted number of copies to a library for the blind or various literary programs.

Uh, unless PA (or PB, or whoever) is putting out Braille books (which I kinda doubt), won't the blind have a little trouble reading them? I wonder what the "various literary programs" include. . . . No that it matters; I suspect the "alloted number of copies" is 0.

Meanwhile, back at the bookstore on this side of the shining sea: The new releases are still the same as the new releases this time last week, but the bookstore is closed again. The person who runs the bookstore must be off for the weekend:)

mreddin

06-05-2005, 12:49 AM

2. Books have four months to make it or they are remaindered. Your masterpiece can be bought for a buck. Fib! The selling cycle for your book is around two years after it's printed, and will go longer if the public takes a shine to it. And what, exactly, is wrong with being bought for a buck?

Someone referenced a Wallstreet Journal article that came out the other day. Whether your talking about self publishing cheer leaders or PA's mantra on bookstores, this kind of story is telling. (Though it may say far more about corporate culture and big chainstores than it does about the average midlist author's struggle for recognition.) Comments?

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/0,,SB111775439006449853-IJjf4Nolal4npuqZ3SGaKiAm5,00.html

This kind of retailing has led to an ever-shortening shelf life for bestsellers. Most stores promote new books for only one or two weeks. Authors who might have remained on the best-seller list 10 to 12 weeks a decade ago now often stay only six to eight weeks. This phenomenon has been exacerbated by publishers themselves, who are publishing ever more books each year in search of hits. That pushes other titles off the shelves more quickly.

Because potential bestsellers have only a short time to get established, publishers say they need towering stacks at the front of stores to ensure their titles get noticed and to make sure they don't miss any sales. The principle is similar to movie studios wanting to get their films in as many theaters as possible on opening weekend. "You build authors by the weight of copies," says Laurence Kirshbaum, CEO of Time Warner's book group.

James D. Macdonald

06-05-2005, 12:58 AM

Whether your talking about self publishing cheer leaders or PA's mantra on bookstores, this kind of story is telling.

That story has very little to do with most books. It deals with the "best sellers," and best seller (as we all ought to know) is itself a genre.

Take this test: Go to your local bookstore. Walk down the aisles. Pick a shelf. Check the release dates of every book on that shelf.

They vary from months to years before, right?

Now try another shelf. Same results, right?

Once you're away from the tables near the door and the shelf labeled "New Releases" you're looking at bookselling-as-usual. It's just that bookselling-as-usual isn't worth a newspaper story.

Jaws

06-05-2005, 01:07 AM

I am sorry that I don't completely understand what is being said here, so if I may? What would be a breach of contract cause of action reguarding copyright? Could you give an example in simple laman terms?
Copyright is a statutory cause of action. Contract is a private cause of action based on the breach of an agreement. They are unrelated; the closest relationship is that in some circumstances, a rightsholder may sue a nonrightsholder for copyright infringement… but two rightsholders may not sue each other for copyright infringement on the ground that somebody exceeded a contractual license. For example, Author sells book to Publisher, who in turn sells theatrical movie rights to Producer. Producer then makes a TV miniseries. Author could sue Producer for breaching the contract (as Author is a beneficiary) or infringing the copyright. Publisher could sue Producer only for the breach of contract.

More directly related to PA, Author contracts with Publisher to have Publisher the exclusive publisher for seven years. Three years later—that is, in the middle of the contract term—Author, who has become fed up with Publisher, signs a contract with Second Publisher. Publisher can sue Author for breach of contract, but not for copyright infringement—unless Author has foolishly transferred his/her copyright to Publisher.

The general rule is that copyright holders in the same property cannot sue each other for infringement either (a) based on an identical form or (b) based on a derivative work authorized by one copyright holder, but not the other (that, instead, would be a breach of implied contract and equitable accounting, which is not an infringement suit even though brought under the Copyright Act).

I realize that this may not be much less confusing, but it's something that occupies about two weeks of an advanced copyright course: standing to sue and remedies available related to copyrighted works, including standing and remedies not asserting copyright infringement.

And I e-mailed you about an hour before this posting.

ResearchGuy

06-05-2005, 01:25 AM

This is from a PAMB thread about business cards for authors:

Remember you are NOT in business you are only wanting to promote your book. You are an author!!
So many surprises coming for that poster and anyone who believes that advice. (1) consumer protection laws do not apply because it is a business-to-business transaction between PA and the author; (2) need for a business license in many jurisdictions if selling anything--including copies of their own books; (3) need for a seller's permit and sales-tax accounting in many jurisdictions--AS a business; (4) need to use Schedule C to report business losses (or income, for the few who turn a profit) for income tax purposes.

--Ken

James D. Macdonald

06-05-2005, 01:35 AM

For those who might be interested, my business cards are plain white with my name centered on the front, with my address in smaller type in the lower left-hand corner. The printing is engraved. The ink is black.

They're cheap enough, you can buy them by the hundreds or thousands at any office supply store.

The purpose of a business card isn't to be a tiny advertisment for a book. They're to give your name and contact information to someone with whom you're doing business. You can put notes -- call Thursday about covers -- on the back.

When I go to conferences I put the business cards I receive in the breast pocket of my jacket and sort 'em out when I get home.

Ken Schneider

06-05-2005, 01:44 AM

When I go to conferences I put the business cards I receive in the breast pocket of my jacket and sort 'em out when I get home.

Since it is mentioned.

What is a good conference or book expo for someone like myself to attend?

Where contacts can be garnered for future possibilities?

James D. Macdonald

06-05-2005, 01:47 AM

Dunno. What genre(s) do you write, and where are you located?

Ken Schneider

06-05-2005, 01:55 AM

Dunno. What genre(s) do you write, and where are you located?

Psychotic thrillers. Mystery. I have gravitated toward these genres and away from Roamntic adventure.
I enjoy reading them and writing them. As in My new work, The Affliction.

Mid-western Ohio, but I can travel anywhere.

Medievalist

06-05-2005, 01:56 AM

Where I am, the city requires writers to have a business license, even if all business other than writing is conducted off-site.

reph

06-05-2005, 04:08 AM

. . . need for a business license in many jurisdictions . . . ; (3) need for a seller's permit and sales-tax accounting in many jurisdictions--AS a business; (4) need to use Schedule C . . . for income tax purposes.
In my city, if you have income on Schedule C for any reason, you operate a business, and you're billed for back taxes, penalties, and interest because you "should have known" you were operating a business, and you need a business license (unless your "business" began long enough ago to be out of statute), and you owe business tax ON YOUR GROSS RECEIPTS even if you have a net loss and even if the tax exceeds your receipts.

Some of us who were caught in a Schedule C sweep last year have fought City Hall on the business tax ever since.

victoriastrauss

06-05-2005, 06:24 AM

Well, I'm back from Balticon (for non-speculative fiction fans, it's a SF/fantasy/horror convention in Baltimore, held every year around this time), where we had great fun with Atlanta Nights. Ann and I, with some other Writer Beware members and supporters, were on a well-attended Writer Beware panel, and also a "Who's Travis Tea and What's All the Fuss About Atlanta Nights?" panel, after which three Travises (including me) spent about an hour reading our favorite horrible passages to an appreciative audience, some of whom brought books for us to sign. Tough to do without cracking up, but loads of fun.

At the end of the Writer Beware panel, one of the attendees raised his hand and said, "Before I came to this panel, I was assuming I'd pay a fee to a literary agent and then pay to be published. Now I know there's a better way." That was a big thrill. We all gave him a big round of applause.

And now, a few moderator-ish comments:

Please, keep discussion on topic. It's all PA, all the time. Other stuff does not belong.
If you quote other people, please ONLY QUOTE THE RELEVANT PARTS, NOT THE ENTIRE FREAKING MESSAGE!!!!!!!!! How many times do I have to ask? Oh, never mind.
Flaming is not tolerated (in keeping with that, I've deleted a number of posts).
I know this thread reads like a long conversation--that's part of its appeal. But it's loooooong and getting longer all the time. Please resist the impulse to post if all you want to say is "I agree" or "Me too" or "Welcome" or some similar one-line message.
As to the recurring discussion of being ignored and/or having feelings hurt...I and others have addressed these issues numerous times in carefully sensitive, conciliatory language. Tonight I'm feeling grumpy and I'll be more blunt. It's a freewheeling discussion here. Yes, we make fun (with me monitoring to make sure the mockery doesn't go over the line). No, your posts won't always get a response (nothing I can do about that). Deal with it.

- Victoria

bluwinteryfox

06-05-2005, 07:03 AM

And now, a few moderator-ish comments:
No, your posts won't always get a response (nothing I can do about that). Deal with it.- Victoria

I'm back and I see that things are pretty much the same :)

I agree with you Victoria. It took a very long time before anyone replied to my posts. I reply only when I feel the need to. If people reply to them or give me a rep point, that's fine. If nothing happens that's fine too. I'm not going to moan and groan about it.

I haven't read all the posts I missed and probably won't. I don't know if that latest email from pa was posted, but let me tell you I was laughing when I received it. They must have forgotten they sent me the release papers with the lovely gag order.

James D. Macdonald

06-05-2005, 07:24 AM

For those trying to catch up:

Willem's book is first mentioned here:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524&page=877&pp=25

With a line-by-line here:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524&page=879&pp=25

The latest Letter To Authors begging them to buy their own books is first mentioned here:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524&page=880&pp=25

With line-by-line here:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524&page=881&pp=25

Charlotte M. Leslie

06-05-2005, 07:41 AM

Jim, I noticed Willems book is selling for $9.95. 327 pages.
My book sells for $9.95 as well. 49 pages. Care to explain
that to me? Do you think others might notice ? Thanks

Ed Williams

06-05-2005, 07:42 AM

My wife and I decided to go out and get an early start on marketing for Knighthawke's August 1st release. We went to Books-a-Million and the manager was very positive and said that she'd like to do a book signing but that we'd have to go through her regional office. She gave us the phone number and we went to Waldenbooks. The manager there was totally uninterested and very negative toward PA and what she referred to as "independent authors." The last thing that I told her before shaking her hand and thanking her for her time was that Knighthawke will be a movie someday. Later on I wished that I'd thought to remind her of the guy who told Elvis to go back to driving a truck.Only thing is, after Elvis was told by the talent scout for the Grand Ole Opry to consider driving a truck again, he went back out on the road and ultimately became the King of Rock 'n' Roll. Elvis did not:

1. Have to pay promoters to perform.
2. Overprice his tickets by $5 or more and perform only in front of family members and close friends.
3. Have to constantly defend himself and his band as being legitimate.
4. Have to deal with one of his main supporters faking his death twice.
5. Have to work with a manager who'd never managed a traditional singer before.

In other words, Elvis had some hills to climb, but the system was not set up for him to fail no matter what. This PA author's book is, it can't be successful no matter what this author does, and he can thank the PA system for that bit of literary sweetness....

James D. Macdonald

06-05-2005, 07:56 AM

We went to Books-a-Million and the manager was very positive and said that she'd like to do a book signing but that we'd have to go through her regional office.

I know what the regional office is going to say. BAM has been the toughest of the chain bookstores to crack for PA authors. Ring up NO SALE on the cash register.

Speaking of NO SALE: Charlotte asks why Willem's book is $9.95 for 327 pages, while her book is $9.95 for 49 pages. Yes, I can explain that, Charlotte! Willem knows good and well that price does matter. He's been lying to y'all this whole time.

Ed Williams

06-05-2005, 08:03 AM

Speaking of NO SALE: Charlotte asks why Willem's book is $9.95 for 327 page, while her book is $9.95 for 49 pages. Yes, I can explain that, Charlotte! Willem knows good and well that price does matter. He's been lying to y'all this whole time....Charlotte, here's a suggestion - don't watch what Willem and his lackeys say, watch what they do...

Dawno

06-05-2005, 08:09 AM

Another reason probably has to do with the fact that he's literally self-publishing and can pocket the entire profit after printing and shipping costs. Why bother with bookkeeping?

writerjenn

06-05-2005, 08:30 AM

Good ole Willem knows EXACTLY what he's doing. He's appealing to the captive audience (the authors at PA) and knows precisely how much they'd be willing to part with to purchase a book with his name on it.

He's relying on their loyalty, and their readiness to spend 9.95.

J

Another reason probably has to do with the fact that he's literally self-publishing and can pocket the entire profit after printing and shipping costs. Why bother with bookkeeping?

Ed Williams

06-05-2005, 08:35 AM

....if you're buying 50-100 or more copies of your own book, $10 for Curlem's vanity diatribe is nothing....

writerjenn

06-05-2005, 08:40 AM

:Huh:I think that was my point.

....if you're buying 50-100 or more copies of your own book, $10 for Curlem's vanity diatribe is nothing....

Ed Williams

06-05-2005, 08:52 AM

...and I need to give this up for the day - later all.

P.S. I had a PA author email me this afternoon and ask if I thought Meiners' book might become a business bestseller. I wrote back and asked him to closely consider where all the marketing efforts for his epistle are aimed - have yet to hear anything back...

mreddin

06-05-2005, 08:58 AM

Another reason probably has to do with the fact that he's literally self-publishing and can pocket the entire profit after printing and shipping costs. Why bother with bookkeeping?

I really would like to know if he's using offset printing. It would be the ultimate hypocracy, since the only reason he would use that form of printing would be to take advantage of the economies of scale which he so adamently condemns. (You know, ancient techniques of failed elitist publishing companies, like Random House.)

He'd be a fool not to offset print, just given the response on their forum is probably a good indication the honeymooners will swallow the bait and deny the hook slashing their tongue. If he manages a price just under $3 per book (with a print run of around 2,500) then he will profit $6.95 per book, plus the $1.50 or so from shipping. I think that's a pretty damn sweet deal considering it's a captive audience.

I have to defer to Jim though, I suspect the real incentive is to push authors into purchasing more of their own books. If there has been any impact on the rate of new author signups then the revenue needs to be made by milking the existing customer base. Individuals buying Willy's book is just icing on the cake (pardon the liberal use of cliches).

Mike

James D. Macdonald

06-05-2005, 09:00 AM

And for those of you who were wondering:

Atlanta Nights has sold 410 copies to date. Just 90 more and we're in Independence Books territory, and PA will make it returnable!

Oops! Sorry -- PA can't. Silly buggers rejected it after they'd already offered a contract. See what they missed out on?

Or maybe it's the price. $17.96 for a 299 page novel (or $11.94 when you buy it straight from the Lulu.com website).

http://www.lulu.com/services/buy_now_buttons/images/blue2.gif (http://www.lulu.com/content/102550)

writerjenn

06-05-2005, 09:29 AM

Yeah, I just know that I awe people a lot around here. :)

-Jeff

Yep, I'm in awe. So much so that I'm generally rendered speechless by your presence.

Geezus I'm a smartass. Oh yeah, PA Sucks.

Jenn

SeanDSchaffer

06-05-2005, 09:50 AM

reph

06-05-2005, 10:12 AM

Is why so many PA authors think when I say something I don't like about PA the Company, they give me the 'Don't blame the authors' business?.... I have no idea why they do this....

Any thoughts as to why this might be?
They're not thinking clearly?

mreddin

06-05-2005, 10:31 AM

Is why so many PA authors think when I say something I don't like about PA the Company, they give me the 'Don't blame the authors' business? I've had many PA authors--and some other authors--say this to me, many a time. I have no idea why they do this, because I never blame the PA authors for being victimized by PA. In writing or otherwise.
:confused:

It is the psychology of the cult, it has nothing to do with you or your message.

Argue against any religion to a devout follower of that religion and you will get the same exact response. Go to a person deeply involved with a political party and make a counterpoint. Even if your remarks are entirely accurate, logical and diplomatic, you will be accused of attacking not the party, not the religion, but the person to whom which your speaking.

I forget the fallicy this is called, but it is a defense mechanism when the person cannot defend against your argument. They withdraw into a mental fetal position and "build strawmen" or "appeal to authority". When someone becomes deeply involved with a cause, movement or cult, the stronger the logical fallicies and defense mechanisms will become until either you stage a breakthrough or your opponent pulls out a 9mm and shows you the colorful muzzle flash eradicating your logic at the speed of sound or thereabouts.

Mike

SeanDSchaffer

06-05-2005, 10:48 AM

It is the psychology of the cult, it has nothing to do with you or your message.

Argue against any religion to a devout follower of that religion and you will get the same exact response. Go to a person deeply involved with a political party and make a counterpoint. Even if your remarks are entirely accurate, logical and diplomatic, you will be accused of attacking not the party, not the religion, but the person to whom which your speaking.

Okay, so I'm not going crazy? Good! I had always heard that argument and never much understood it. I am amazed that people have this mentality. But if it's a natural mechanism within the human psyche, well, there's not much anyone can do to stop it. At least, however, I now know what's going on when people do that. And as the old saying goes, "Knowing is half the battle."

I appreciate the explanation, Mike. Thank you.

:Sun:

Ed Williams

06-05-2005, 04:20 PM

....a lot of the time when we get into the "you're blaming the PA authors" spiel, you'll see the following:

1. Someone who's signed with PA.
2. Someone who's sorry they did.
3. Someone who is grieving over their book.
4. Someone who needs to vent that grief somewhere.
5. Someone who comes here, reads this thread, realizes to an even great degree that they've made a mistake, and someone who ends up even sadder and needs to vent said grief.
6. Sometimes we do hammer 'em pretty hard over at Poz.
7. Most times that hammering is deserved. The whole point here is to try and keep new writers from signing with PA in the first place. We can't do that if we don't vividly expose the PA system and process. Even more important is exposing the fallacies perpetuated by some of PA's own authors.
8. Sometimes we're human.
9. Most times, when questioned, the aggrieved cannot site specific instances of PA author abuse.

Add all that up, and at least some of the answer to your question resides there.

On another topic, a journey over to the Great and Mighty Land reveals yet another vanity radio discussion (ArtistFirst) - to wit:

For anyone who has used this avenue to promote your book, I have a few questions.

1. What is considered an acceptable donation?

2. Do you feel it helped increase your sales?

3. Were you comfortable with the interview process?

4. Do you feel it was worth it.The question-by-question answer:

1. Nothing! Any radio station that resorts to asking guests to make donations in exchange for air time isn't worth your time. What it should tell you is that they're not receiving enough advertising dollars to support the program. What that should tell you is that few people are listening. Always remember the Uncle Jim credo - money flows towards the author, not away. Simply put, paying to be on the radio is on a par with gleefully begging PA to publish your book.

2. I've yet seen or heard of anyone who appeared on ArtistFirst whose sales increased to any noticeable degree. Think about it this way - here in Georgia, we have a monthly hour long radio program called "Cover to Cover." It's an hour long author interview/call-in program hosted by Georgia Public Broadcasting (PBS). The PBS network in our state is 14 stations, the audience for this program is three-quarters of a million people. I've been fortunate enough to have been on it twice. My sales spiked upwards on Amazon and the other online sellers for about a week or so each time, but there was nothing tremendous about it. I would guess I sold maybe a few hundred books (re my publishers) from the appearances. And guess what? Most of those sales were from bookstore sales, not online sales. People listened to the program, then went to a bookstore to buy the book(s). ArtistFirst "estimates" an audience of what, 10,000 for their author's program? 50,000? Either way, they can't be helping move many books, face it, if that's the estimated audience the real one is probably much smaller.

3. All you have to do is sit there and answer questions if the interviewer knows what they're doing. Bro Ed is a great interviewer, he made the interview he and I did seem like a walk through the roses, I would imagine Jenna would attest to the same.

4. If it's not getting your name out there or selling books for you, it's not worth it. ArtistFirst is developing the reputation in radio that PA has for publishing.

You don't pay someone to write a book or promote it, the money should come to you. If it doesn't, stay the hell away!

Diana Hignutt

06-05-2005, 04:38 PM

My dear friend Ed says:

2. I've yet seen or heard of anyone who appeared on ArtistFirst whose sales increased to any noticeable degree.

Frankly, Ed, I did radio interviews that were broadcast on hundreds of stations across North America for my PA book. I did about 60 interviews, some were syndicated across the country, others were syndicated across Canada, others were in major metropolitan areas. Aside from very small spikes in my Amazon ranking, they did not help my PA book sales. I've been told I do good interviews, and my book always got plugged. Many radio hosts said they loved it. Radio interviews may help commercially published books, but not PA books. PA Authors going on AuthorFirst radio are simply wasting even more of their money.

YOU CAN NOT SUCCEED WITH A PA BOOK! There is nothing that you can do that will work. PublishAmerica puts too many roadblocks in your way. Trust me, I tried as hard as anyone ever has with a PA book.

My advice to PA authors: Save your money! Do not waste one dime on promotion. And certainly don't pay for radio interviews.

diana

Christine N.

06-05-2005, 04:40 PM

I picked up the paper this morning. Nice, thick Sunday editon of my local rag. I always look at the "Living" section first, because it has all the happy stuff in it - weddings, births, funny stories about my area.
I found an AP story having to do with one Elizabeth Kostova. Elizabeth is a first time novelist who just sold her first book, about the search for the real Count Vlad, aka Dracula. Remember, this is her FIRST BOOK. Also remember that PA would have you believe that first timers NEVER sell their manuscripts to big houses.

Hers went, at an auction, to Little, Brown, and Co. for the paltry sum of two million dollars. Yep, you read that correctly. Her very first book garnered her an advance of two mil.

We all know that's not typical, but if you believe PA, it never, ever happens. Not ever.

Take from it what you will.

Ed Williams

06-05-2005, 05:17 PM

...y'all might be interested in what she had to say...

This lady runs a small, family owned bookstore. Loves writing, loves writers, store is small but turns a tiny profit. Yesterday, a lady comes into her bookstore inquiring about a book signing for her son. Told the owner the book was "fantastic" and that it "deserved a chance." Wanted the bookstore owner to order books, bookmarks, feature the book in a prominent place in the store, the whole nine yards.The bookstore owner goes into her computer to check out the book. Turns out it's a PA book. The bookstore owner then has to tell the lady that she doesn't stock PublishAmerica books. Why? Their no-returns policy. Then tells the lady she will order one copy - on consignment. Also tells her that there will be no signings unless everything for the signing is furnished by the author.

Imagine what this woman felt like, and imagine what she had to tell her son when she arrived home with the news. Anyone wonder why we fight so hard against PA? Nothing anyone here will ever say or do will match the embarrassment this lady endured, and all because of PA and their policies. They put the bookstore owner in a bad situation, the lady who was trying to help her son, and ultimately, her son.

Think this is a rare occurence? Hardly. In the past few months I've twice witnessed more embarrassing scenarios than this one...

DaveKuzminski

06-05-2005, 06:47 PM

Let's not forget the response from many PA authors who blame us for their inability to get into bookstores because we have voiced our criticism of PA. However, they either don't know or don't realize that the opposition to their books from bookstores came initially from the bookstores reacting to PA's prices, poor editing, poor covers, full payment up front, and no returns policy. After all, many PA authors have already stated that they didn't see any criticism until after they signed up with PA, so why should it be any different for the bookstore owners.

What? Does anyone think the bookstores have more time than the rest of us and spend that cruising the Internet every hour just looking for sites that criticize any and all book publishers so they can avoid purchasing from them? Okay, aside from the staff at PA.

James D. Macdonald

06-05-2005, 06:53 PM

Think this is a rare occurence? Hardly. In the past few months I've twice witnessed more embarrassing scenarios than this one...

This last spring I had a chat with the owner of one of the largest independent bookstores in Connecticut. She told me that not a week goes by that three or four PA authors don't call or visit in an attempt to get their books stocked or arrange a signing. The answer is always "no." Non-returnable, high priced, short discounted, and lousy quality.

How about if the book is fantastic, that reading this book will cure cancer, end poverty, and give you whiter teeth? Not only that, but all the words are spelled right? Bookstore owners don't have the time to read all the books, to do the job that an aquiring editor at the publishing house should have done, selecting books that someone might want to read.

Okay, other matters: Be very careful when you're using data from fonerbooks.com -- that's a self-publishing enthusiast talking there, with a specialized non-fiction product.

And be very careful when you google on are authors paid royalties on the net price or retail price. Most of the links lead back to the same very dubious article, beloved of self-publishing enthusiasts who keep linking to it and reprinting it. You have to know that the reason more publishers are offering royalties based on net is that there are more little publishers using POD and on-line distribution. The major publishers -- you know, the ones that get 90% of the sales -- are still paying on cover price just as they always have, and bunches of the smaller places are too. Friends don't let friends sign 'net' contracts. It's an invitation to abuse.

When you start researching these questions, ask where the guy who's giving the answers gets his money.

Here's what the Authors Guild (http://www.authorsguild.org/?p=101) has to say about how authors get paid:

7. Royalties

What the clause does:You should earn royalties for sales of your book that are in line with industry standards. For example, many authors are paid 10% of the retail price of the book on the first 5,000 copies sold, 12.5% of the retail price on the next 5,000 copies sold, and 15% of the retail price on all copies sold thereafter.Negotiation tips:Base your royalties on the suggested retail list price of the book, not on net sales income earned by your publisher. Net-based royalties are lower than list-based royalties of the same percentage, and they allow your publisher room to offer special deals or write off bad debt without paying you money on the books sold. Limit your publisher's ability to sell copies of your book at "deep discounts" – quantity discount sales of more than 50% – or as remainders.

Limit your publisher's ability to reduce the percentage of royalties paid for export, book club, mail order, and other special sales.

realitychuck

06-05-2005, 07:02 PM

Aside from very small spikes in my Amazon ranking, they did not help my PA book sales. Remember, too, that the spikes PA authors see in their Amazon rankings can be caused by the sale of only one or two books in a week. It is hardly indicative of any serious increase of sales, and after a few weeks of no sales, the ranking will drop again.

James D. Macdonald

06-05-2005, 07:36 PM

Oh -- I've spent a bit of the morning cruising PA authors' websites.

Guys, could you do one thing for me? When you put in links for your books on Barnes&Noble and Amazon, could you make 'em links to your book at Barnes&Noble and Amazon? I mean, shoot, guys! I already know how to find Amazon's front door! If I'm clicking on your link, it means I want to find you.

If you don't know how to make the links ... ask me. I'll tell you. It isn't hard.

Jaws

06-05-2005, 08:38 PM

I really would like to know if he's using offset printing. It would be the ultimate hypocracy, since the only reason he would use that form of printing would be to take advantage of the economies of scale which he so adamently condemns.
There's an even simpler explanation. Offset printing requires payment within thirty days of completing the printrun (well, ok, I get my academic clients better terms than most unpublished/unseasoned authors—it'll be on delivery for most). Sure, that's the same as Lightning Source et al. requiring the money up front before printing a POD copy. The difference—and this is the one real difference—is that one copy at $6.82 costs $6.82 up front, while 3,000 copies at $1.47 costs $4,500 after one allows for shipping.

Just thinking out loud, I wonder where that $4,500 came from? Does it, perhaps, represent 900 PA books sold at $5 more than just about any reasonable fiction publisher—even a POD-based publisher—charges for its wares? Is this, perhaps, a rhetorical question?

James D. Macdonald

06-05-2005, 08:56 PM

What stops him from taking all the prepaid orders for his $9.95 book, putting the money in his bank account to age for a couple of months, counting how many orders he has, and going to an offset house to get that many copies then?

We don't know that he's printed a single copy yet.

And you know what? That would still be "print on demand."

Me, I'm going to wait for 'em to start showing up in used bookstores before I think about getting one.

James D. Macdonald

06-05-2005, 09:22 PM

You have to know that the reason more publishers are offering royalties based on net is...

They want to make more money.

PUBLISHER ONE: How can we make more money?

PUBLISHER TWO: I know, let's pay the authors less.

PUBLISHER ONE: Cool! How do we do that?

PUBLISHER TWO: Pay 'em on net!

That's taking money out of the pockets of people who, on average, make less than migrant farm workers.

================

Personal for Steve:

I don't agree with going to a bookstore and asking them not to shelve your book or other books from your publisher either, but it's understandable. Part of the grieving process is anger. That's a sign of an author in mourning.

Do you know how difficult it is to make an author hate his own book? Have you seen how often PA has managed that very trick?

I hope your own experience turns out to be far more positive all the way around.

Literary Lola

06-05-2005, 09:30 PM

Is why so many PA authors think when I say something I don't like about PA the Company, they give me the 'Don't blame the authors' business?

Any thoughts as to why this might be?

It's sugar-shock from all the Koolaid. Well, that and they share the same straw.

Ken Schneider

06-05-2005, 09:31 PM

[QUOTE]=James D. Macdonald]What stops him from taking all the prepaid orders for his $9.95 book, putting the money in his bank account to age for a couple of months, counting how many orders he has, and going to an offset house to get that many copies then?[QUOTE]

Nothing at all.

Why not use someone elses money to get your book printed.

Let set up another senario.

Why not add a book buying offer-(Scam) to the announcement of Herr Doctor's book. Then we'll use that money to run a printing, use it for mass marketing. We'll say we've sold enough copies to make it an independant book selection, make it returnable. We can ramp up the publicity for this book only, and gain exposer for the company. Wait, do we want to do that?

In any case we can get Doctor Doolittle's book out to the public using the authors money. (High fives around the kitchen-conference room table.)

Shame of it is they will market Meiner's book properly.

I'm curious to see the Imprint they use.

And, lets watch to see if they extend the offer for book buying, a sign that they haven't gained the cash flow they want for implimentation.

A book buying deal-ie. NYT Ad scam- Replace NYT Ad scam with, Meiner's book.

Problem: They've banned the masses to make this new scam workable,( not so many enlightened vets, but, they have a problem with too many newbies without a book to purchase. Back to the kitchen table you three, you've blundered it.

James D. Macdonald

06-05-2005, 09:34 PM

How come Lulu, which uses the same technology as PA, can post sales
hour-by-hour and pay royalties every month within five days of the end of the
month, while listing "retail sales" as a block on the last day of each month, but PA can't?

NOTE: I am not recommending Lulu.com!

For some purposes they might be okay ... specialized non-fiction, poetry, niche fiction, but even then true self-publication (author owns ISBN, makes own deal with printer, handles distribution) is probably a better choice.

James D. Macdonald

06-05-2005, 09:49 PM

Shame of it is they will market Meiner's book properly.

Will they? They still don't have a sales force, and there's still no one there who has the slightest clue about publishing.

Oh -- I'm about to try an experiment with Lulu.com. I think I'll do this down in the POD self-publishing (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=47) board.

Ken Schneider

06-05-2005, 09:49 PM

How come Lulu,

Legit operation.

Going to that POD link, curious. Hope it's a new post or I'm lost.

postshy

06-05-2005, 10:07 PM

Mike,

I have been meanng to send you this information so here it is. I live in Canada so it may not be much help. but it does give some indication of what we face in Canada when we are published with PA.

Bought 50 books @ $16.95 US - $847.50 (108 pages)
Shipping Cost - $101.00
50% discount - $466.13
Total paid - $482.38 US

With exchange this worked out to $15.00 Can. per copy (my cost). Selling price in Canada (on consignment only) $24.95 Can. approx. for a 108 page book. Bookstores expect a 40 - 45% discount off of the selling price.

The first girl I spoke to at PA told me I was entitled to 50% off on the shipping cost as well. "Not so" said the second girl. She said I was only entitled to 50% off $16.95. I found out later when my friend received her 50 copies that I was actually entitled to 55% to offset the Can. exchange. PA acknowledges that this is correct but, to date, have not reimbursed me - promises have been all that I have received so far and a couple of "tone" letters when I remind them that they owe me money.

That did not stop them from sending me their latest offer (as if I would be that stupid twice). They know exactly what they can do with that offer. It will join that "amendment" contract in my junk file of hard copies that I may need some day. How many books have I sold? 12 to friends and family direct (at cost) and through PA. After sporadic sales and a couple of giveaways, I still have 25 copies left.

Jenna, Victoria and all those others involved, on behalf of PA Authors past , present and future who know they have been scammed and not just "used" - a big "Thank you".
I have only been here a couple of months and already I have seen how many time you have had to say the same things over and over and over..... with every crop of disillusioned "newbies". You are very patient and dedicated people.

postshy/Roberta

reph

06-05-2005, 10:46 PM

Shame of it is they will market Meiner's book properly.

I'm curious to see the Imprint they use.
They won't have to use any if Meiners hires lulu as his printer.

Ed Williams

06-05-2005, 10:47 PM

...it only takes one booksigning alongside a PA author who discovers the truth right there on the spot as she peruses other author's books to make a believer out of you. I know that sometimes we have to say things that aren't the softest in the world, but believe me, telling someone on the front end is much kinder than letting them discovering the truth somewhere out there in the real world. Like in front of a Barnes and Noble executive, or in front of a bookstore manager with customers all around, or in an audience type situation where you're asked, point blank, why you chose a scam publishing outfit. Humiliation like that is never forgotten.

In the end, there's no choice but to tell the truth....

Raj

06-05-2005, 10:52 PM

Hi everyone. I tried to break contract with PA. And dear god they come off as jerks.Wish me luck when I file another complaint with the Maryland BBB.

Trapped in amber

06-05-2005, 11:02 PM

Hi Raj.
Yep, they're jerks. They try and belittle and abuse authors who speak up and want out. Did you get an author support/abuse email?
I hope you eventually succeed in getting out of the contract. Good luck with the BBB complaint.

ResearchGuy

06-05-2005, 11:04 PM

Pardon me if anyone has posted this already, but well worth a look is http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/books/review/05KENN01.html

June 5, 2005
Cash Up Front

By RANDY KENNEDY

In part:

In fact, many publishers say that the tables and flashy cardboard displays that crowd the front of chain bookstores have emerged as a marketing force fully as powerful as the traditional ways of trying to bring a book to the public's hard-won attention -- through newspaper and magazine ads, reviews, author tours and radio and television interviews.
But this promotional device, like most others, comes with a cost. It is known, somewhat deceptively, as a cooperative advertising agreement. In plain terms, it means that many of the books on display at the front of a store or placed face out at the end of an aisle are there because the publisher paid for them to be there, not necessarily because anyone at the bookstore thought the book was noteworthy or interesting.

Here is a real gem:
... over the last 15 years in the world of American bookselling ... the amount of retail space devoted to selling books has quadrupled -- from superstores like Barnes & Noble and Borders to the growing book sections of big-box stores like Wal-Mart and Costco, and even of supermarkets. [emphasis added]
So much for that PA crapola about the fading role of bookstores.

--Ken

mreddin

06-05-2005, 11:18 PM

promises have been all that I have received so far and a couple of "tone" letters when I remind them that they owe me money.

Those "tone" letters in many ways are identical to the kind of abuse I took from a parent for most of my childhood, so I can sympathise with how those must have made you feel. Any bully I've ever come across exhibits the same kind of behavior. They seek to minimalize and marginalize you as a person, because it sets you up to endure more abuse, carrying the presumption that you deserve it and nobody cares about you anyways. They use this technique sadly, because it works whether your dealing with a child or a fully rationed adult. I know either Jim or Dave had a great line by line analysis of the "tone letters" earlier in this thread and its worth a second look. I will keep my fingers crossed that someday you will get your "child" back from the clutches of PA.

Mike

Ed Williams

06-05-2005, 11:35 PM

ResearchGuy

06-05-2005, 11:47 PM

....you're telling me that the New York Times states that bookstores are playing an even larger role in bookselling, and that Willem is stating they're becoming dinosaurs? Dammit, who do I trust the most?
Dagnabbit, that is a vexatious conundrum, ain't it? One of the largest and most influential newspapers on the planet? Or Nice-O-MaticTM deletion in Frederick, MD?

But then, maybe the NYT Book Review article was another of those Jayson Blair kinds of aberrations ...

--Ken

astonwest

06-06-2005, 12:23 AM

Do you know how difficult it is to make an author hate his own book? Have you seen how often PA has managed that very trick?

*Raises hand*

On other matters:
I'm surprised PA hasn't come out with an addendum to their special offer, where folks who order the short quantities can get a copy of Willem's book, and they'll just take the $12.95 (shipping included) out of the author's next royalty statement. I mean, then they wouldn't have to pay that author for a whole year, and would have an actual reason...

postshy

06-06-2005, 12:48 AM

You are not telling me that on top of all of the verbal abuse, Willem is now trying to sell me a book full of blatant lies. The New York Times actually claims that bookstore space is increasing. Wow! (snicker) Listen up, PA Authors, that book you just ordered from Willem is already outdated. PA has been caught lying again, unless, of course, you think he is more credible than the NYT!

Don't worry, Mike, those "tone" e-mails do not bother me at all. Actually, I collect them - they might have a use some day. I have already written three more books currently under the submission process - one of which I barely managed to grab from under PA's greedy little hands. Don't know why they wanted it because my first book just is not selling - woe is me!:) Reason - it's a PA Book after all! They can keep it. I just do a few things every now and then to keep them honest and aware that I expect royalties EVEN if they only sell one copy.

Thanks for the sympathy, Ed. It smarted at first, but then I thought - why walk away and let it happen to someone else? Why not stick around and open my big mouth whenever I can:)? Believe me, I always have the time to bash PA (NOT ITS AUTHORS)!

postshy/Roberta

Banned-Aide

06-06-2005, 01:00 AM

mreddin

06-06-2005, 01:16 AM

If he can sell a 327 page book for $9.95 after saying it couldn't be done, do you think he is offering it to bookstores without the non-return policy?

I really doubt he plans on selling it to bookstores. He has one niche target market, PA's own authors. He would have had his book properly edited if he planned on selling to bookstores. Remember this guy is a psychologist right? He wrote a manipulative propoganda piece aimed squarely at his "resonating" flock. I have little doubt the book will fit like a glove with the intended readership.

The whole thing is a little sad on a different level. Looking at the financials, if PA had actually believed in their own hype and followed through, I do believe they could have launched many legitimate writing careers in the sense of a triple A ballclub helping ballplayers make it to the majors. Instead they decided on a get rich quick scheme and turned a reasonable idea into a treacherous fraud. Well that is my 2 cents anyways, I'll try and illustrate my point later with some financial modeling.

Mike

robeiae

06-06-2005, 01:22 AM

I'm surprised PA hasn't come out with an addendum to their special offer, where folks who order the short quantities can get a copy of Willem's book, and they'll just take the $12.95 (shipping included) out of the author's next royalty statement.
I think this is likely. Also, I think Willem will defend the price by claiming that he gets no royalty and PA is breaking even on his book. Hell, he might even cliam they are losing money on ever sale, but he is still putting it out because it's a story that's just too important not to tell!(*snicker*)

Rob :)

realitychuck

06-06-2005, 01:23 AM

I'm surprised PA hasn't come out with an addendum to their special offer, where folks who order the short quantities can get a copy of Willem's book, and they'll just take the $12.95 (shipping included) out of the author's next royalty statement. I mean, then they wouldn't have to pay that author for a whole year, and would have an actual reason...That would assume that the authors who buy the book get $12.95 in royalties. It's not like Meiners to run any risk at all, so this is probably a no-go.

SeanDSchaffer

06-06-2005, 01:32 AM

Here is a real gem:

Quote:
... over the last 15 years in the world of American bookselling ... the amount of retail space devoted to selling books has quadrupled -- from superstores like Barnes & Noble and Borders to the growing book sections of big-box stores like Wal-Mart and Costco, and even of supermarkets. [emphasis added]

So much for that PA crapola about the fading role of bookstores.

You know? I used to believe that 'crapola.' But a simple reminder of how I myself buy books brought me back to reality.

I do not like buying books and then waiting four to six weeks (PA's estimated delivery times when I used to buy my own book from them directly) to be able to actually hold it in my hand....let alone read it. When I buy books, I buy them in a physical store where I can physically look through the books to physically see if they interest me or not.

And also, whenever I go into a brick-and-mortar bookstore, I always see other people in there browsing around the store. I have yet to go into a physical, real, brick-and-mortar store and be the only browser in the store.

Let me reiterate that:

I have never been the lone browser in a brick-and-mortar bookstore in my life. Never. I have, however, been buying books for decades, and I can tell you that if anything, physical bookstore browsers are ever increasing in number.

Another thing that is interesting, as well. The Portland Metropolitan Area (Oregon) has, throughout my lifetime, been home to several major mega-bookstores. One of them (Powell's City of Books, on Burnside Street in Downtown Portland--which if I'm not mistaken is their original store) is so huge, new customers are given maps of the three-floor bookstore, just so they can navigate through it. In fact, I have gotten to the point on occasion, of having trouble finding the exits to the building! I might say that this mega-bookstore is never lacking in hundreds of customers whenever I have an opportunity to walk in through their doors.

I cannot believe I never put 2 and 2 together here. But that, I suppose, is the way ol' Willem wants people to think.

Especially when it comes to those writers PA has victimized.

James D. Macdonald

06-06-2005, 01:43 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/books/review/05KENN01.html

...newspaper and magazine ads, reviews, author tours and radio and television interviews.
But this promotional device, like most others, comes with a cost. It is known, somewhat deceptively, as a cooperative advertising agreement.

Most of this, other than the reviews, is the extra promotion that most books don't get -- the things that authors are talking about when they say their publishers didn't do any promotion.

Most of these are also worthless for most authors. Newspaper and magazine ads, TV and radio interviews -- only useful when you've reached the level where large numbers of people are waiting for your book to come out so they can buy their copy that same day. How many people buy books based on ads alone? Darned few. Single-digit percentages.

Those are to inform the folks who are going to head to the bookstore to buy your book, with your book in their mind, that the trip won't be wasted.

Author tours, same thing. You have to be at least mid-grade before it's worthwhile. Do 'em if they're fun, but ... again, tiny number of sales directly related.

Front of store placement is a moneymaker for the stores. Not all books can be placed on the tables in front. Those are to entice the casual browsers, and to tempt the folks who are heading to the store with a particular title in mind.

Bookstores charge serious money for that placement. And it's physically impossible for every book to be piled by the door, even for a day.

There's a bit of an arms race going on between book stores and publishers on that wad of promotion. We may have approached the algae-bloom-on-the-pond stage there.

This isn't anything for your midlist author to concern himself with. It's like watching elephants mating for us. Lots of noise, and it takes place at a high level.

astonwest

06-06-2005, 01:44 AM

Rob, I can definitely see Will...oops, Infocenter saying that...

That would assume that the authors who buy the book get $12.95 in royalties. It's not like Meiners to run any risk at all, so this is probably a no-go.

Figure even if a person gets $3-4 in royalties...PA wouldn't have to pay that person for 3 or 4 royalty periods...and they would have already pulled in the money from the sale of the author's own books (with all the implied profit associated with that venture)...I see little risk for PA in that...

Remember, Willem is a failed author...he probably wants to see his work READ just as much as the authors he's screwed over through the years...

*evil smile*

Another evil thought: What if they're trying to convince tons of their authors to buy this book so that they can claim a PA bestseller (since I believe the 5000+ author hates their guts, and I think they dumped or got dumped by every other author who sold 1000s of books)?

They probably wish I was on their staff...
except I have a soul...

Ed Williams

06-06-2005, 02:41 AM

...is that if Willem somehow lucked out and achieved a bestseller, Larry might become jealous and decide to write and publish something as well. Can y'all imagine some PA loyalist out there with a bookshelf containing volumes by both Meiners and Clopper? It boggles the imagination...

Kate StAmour

06-06-2005, 02:49 AM

PA has released my novel <i>Bare Bones</i>. Did I get to see my "author copies" first? Nope. Is my "book" over-priced and under-edited? Yep. Anyone care to pinch me and wake me from this nightmare?
I can't seem to get the cover art to load here (file is still to large, thank you to the amazing person who tried to shrink it for me), so you'll have to check it out for yourself on their website: http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?Search=Yes Grrr.
On a happy note, I'm writing a better book and I plan on pitching it to a commercial publisher. Never retreat. Never surrender.
Kate

reph

06-06-2005, 02:51 AM

Those "tone" letters in many ways are identical to the kind of abuse I took from a parent for most of my childhood, so I can sympathise with how those must have made you feel. Any bully I've ever come across exhibits the same kind of behavior. They seek to minimalize and marginalize you as a person...
Absolutely right. I recognize the pattern, too, Mike. The tone letters also have another function for PA, as parental bullying does for a parent: they're evasive. They seek to deflect criticism and complaints by attacking you, the person with a grievance, instead of dealing with your grievance.

writerjenn

06-06-2005, 02:53 AM

Kate, I'm getting an error message.

An error occurred on your computer- please reenter shopping search. Search pages cannot be bookmarked.
Email support@publishamerica.com for further assistance in resetting your temporary internet files.

Sucks that the bookstore isn't working AGAIN.

Jenn

I can't seem to get the cover art to load here (file is still to large, thank you to the amazing person who tried to shrink it for me), so you'll have to check it out for yourself on their website: http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?Search=Yes Grrr.

Kate StAmour

06-06-2005, 03:11 AM

Kate, I'm getting an error message.

An error occurred on your computer- please reenter shopping search. Search pages cannot be bookmarked.
Email support@publishamerica.com for further assistance in resetting your temporary internet files.

Sucks that the bookstore isn't working AGAIN.

Jenn

LOL! Should we be shocked? If all else fails you can just do a search for <i>Bare Bones</i> on their site.

DaveKuzminski

06-06-2005, 03:25 AM

The first girl I spoke to at PA told me I was entitled to 50% off on the shipping cost as well. "Not so" said the second girl. She said I was only entitled to 50% off $16.95. I found out later when my friend received her 50 copies that I was actually entitled to 55% to offset the Can. exchange. PA acknowledges that this is correct but, to date, have not reimbursed me - promises have been all that I have received so far and a couple of "tone" letters when I remind them that they owe me money.

Contact your credit card company, if you used a card, and report PA for failing to refund the difference. If they've done that to enough of their authors and each of them contact the credit card company, that might put a crimp into the means that PA can accept since I doubt that a credit card company would want to have lots of dealings with businesses that defrauded their customers on a regular basis.

DreamWeaver

06-06-2005, 03:51 AM

[Willem]might even cliam they are losing money on ever sale, but he is still putting it out because it's a story that's just too important not to tell!(*snicker*)I could so see this happening. Sure you're not clairvoyant? :D

Kris

Arkie

06-06-2005, 03:53 AM

The negative tone letters, monitoring of posts on the PAMB, squelching anything not favorable to the company, and public chiding of authors by the PA logo, comes across to me as a poor employer/employee relationship, not a publisher/author relationship, and the PA author-employees don’t have a union steward with which to voice grievances.

I think the psychology is: we have done you a big favor in printing that miserable piece of crap you call a book, and you owe us. We’ve got your *** for seven years and you’re going to toe the line or else.

James D. Macdonald

06-06-2005, 04:03 AM

Here's the earlier discussion of the Author Insult Team's abusive letters:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=169274#post169274

Medievalist

06-06-2005, 05:12 AM

How come Lulu, which uses the same technology as PA, can post sales
hour-by-hour and pay royalties every month within five days of the end of the
month, while listing "retail sales" as a block on the last day of each month, but PA can't?

A question to be asked--especially since someone at PA is the designated contact for LS, and all you have to do is log on to your LS account and you can see your entire print run history--when, what, how much, and the invoice status.

Kate StAmour

06-06-2005, 05:28 AM

OK, shall we see if this works? The cover art should be attached to this post. Please look at it with a trained eye.
(Special thanks to the living Angel who shrank it down for me.)
Kate

DaveKuzminski

06-06-2005, 05:44 AM

When it comes to art, I'm not in possession of a trained eye. However, that said, to me it looks cobbled together and not very well done.

Jean Marie

06-06-2005, 06:08 AM

would be if a release was signed by the models for their work to be stolen, I mean borrowed. And did they receive fair market value for this theft? There I go again, of course PA would return or pay said monieshttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteSmack.gif

Ol' Fashioned Girl

06-06-2005, 06:26 AM

I've been banned! Woe is me! Whatever shall I do now?

Ol' Gal

writerjenn

06-06-2005, 06:27 AM

Grab a mug of cocoa, have a few brownies and enjoy freeeeeedom!

Jenn

I've been banned! Woe is me! Whatever shall I do now?

Ol' Gal

astonwest

06-06-2005, 06:37 AM

Grab a mug of cocoa, have a few brownies and enjoy freeeeeedom!

Jenn

And don't forget to grab a t-shirt...

mreddin

06-06-2005, 06:37 AM

I've been banned! Woe is me! Whatever shall I do now?

Ol' Gal

You could start by giving us details since any evidence of your misdeeds would no doubt be swiftly covered by the astute PA Forum mods. ;)

M

Ol' Fashioned Girl

06-06-2005, 06:43 AM

I did the same thing several other brave, wonderful souls did: namely, I challenged PA's Poster Boy. I knew when I did it, it wouldn't last as long as a snowball in Hades. :) I kept a copy of it, though, just in case...

And I quote:

I see several ways for serious topics around here to get lost. Sometimes they're 'hen-jacked' (as H.B. calls it), sometimes they're H.B.-jacked (though he and his friends might not look at it that way), and sometimes they just 'disappear', along with the authors who wrote them.

I *have* noticed that whenever there's a serious thread related to the price of our books, the marketing activities our publisher may - or may not - be active doing for us, or anything that might not be considered 'right-thinking', someone sure 'jacks' it fast - whether it's in the 'public' board or the 'private' one.

In fact, I've got a bet with myself how long *this* post will last... and whether or not I'll still be able to post after it's gone!

Unquote.

That was posted Saturday afternoon around 4:30pm CDT. I don't know how long it lasted, actually, 'cause I didn't go back to check until a few minutes ago.

Now I'll *never* know if I won the bet with myself or not... ::sigh::

Ol' Girl

Boob

06-06-2005, 06:52 AM

Now I'll *never* know if I won the bet with myself or not... ::sigh::

Ol' Girl

I believe it was there for a couple of hours, because I read it. :Clap: :Hail:
Somebody should make up some hen t-shirts...LOL

Navigator: Here (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookstore/images/products/1413777589.jpg) we have her weeping. (Notice the horrible placement of the quotes, which look like double commas.) Luckily she stops crying because she dyes her hair and learns she's part Werewolf in Powers Foretold (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookstore/images/products/1413765289.jpg). Of course that would confuse anyone. But it hits Trying-to-suck-in-my-own-face girl really hard, so she grows a beard and goes off to war. (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookstore/images/products/1413766706.jpg)

Replying to the post below to save space: That is just too funny.

Boob.

mdin

06-06-2005, 06:52 AM

Wooo I love the new release day. One quick examination of the new releases, and I see we have a new friend to go with turtleneck guy and eyebrow girl.

I'd like to introduce you folks to Trying-to-suck-in-my-own-face girl.

Here (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookstore/images/products/1413777589.jpg) we have her weeping. (Notice the horrible placement of the quotes, which look like double commas.) Luckily she stops crying because she dyes her hair and learns she's part Werewolf in Powers Foretold (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookstore/images/products/1413765289.jpg). Of course that would confuse anyone. But it hits Trying-to-suck-in-my-own-face girl really hard, so she grows a beard and goes off to war. (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookstore/images/products/1413766706.jpg)

uhhhh, Kate. Errr.... Congrats on the new book? (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookstore/images/products/141374866X.jpg)

Ed Williams

06-06-2005, 07:00 AM

...not only will I buy one, hell, I might even write a column about y'all, we could have a blast with it and nail our Fredrick buddies all at the same time...

Kate StAmour

06-06-2005, 07:05 AM

I've been banned! Woe is me! Whatever shall I do now?

Ol' Gal

Welcome to the club!!

Kate

Kate StAmour

06-06-2005, 07:17 AM

uhhhh, Kate. Errr.... Congrats on the new book? (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookstore/images/products/141374866X.jpg)

LOL. I thought I had until July to fight for freedom. Guess not. I'm drowning myself in really good chocolate tonight and hitting the gym tomorrow. I have some other projects in the works, so all is not lost-- just one manuscript.
Ugh. Must...have...more...Godiva...

Jean Marie

06-06-2005, 07:30 AM

Hi Ol Gal and welcome to the Land of Freedom. The list of banned PA'ers will do nothing but continue to grow. It seems the new class of newbies isn't swallowing the party line. Maybe because they see those of us who were around for a long time disappearing at such a rapid rate. And who's left for them to obtain the truth from? Sure as heck not Infosnot.

Seems as if PunishAmerica is about to lose the tiller. Oh, wait, the truth book has been released. Wow, and it has pictures and everythinghttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif As someone I respect said, "I'm gonna wait for the movie!"

mreddin

06-06-2005, 07:59 AM

But it hits Trying-to-suck-in-my-own-face girl really hard, so she grows a beard and goes off to war.

That is not really the same woman in the Abyss picture is it?! That would be *really* sad.

M.

reph

06-06-2005, 09:21 AM

The cover art should be attached to this post. Please look at it with a trained eye.
I don't know what kind of evaluation you're asking for, but my overall impression is that it looks confused: pictures of different people are sliced up and juxtaposed. Not clear what the theme is or what this cover is meant to suggest. (I know nothing about the book. From that cover, it might be a romance or a mystery.)

Normally, the cover of a trade p'back has the title or the author's name in the top three inches or so, where it'll show above the wires that hold books in place on a display rack. It was hard to tell because the picture is so small, but I don't think this cover has any type there.

batgirl

06-06-2005, 10:58 AM

I was browsing ebay and thought I'd search Publishamerica. Some book-jobbers, and assorted hopeful authors.
One author is more hopeful than most - she's offering a copy of her book (poetry) for an opening bid of $7,500.00.

Well ... it's autographed.

Apologies if this is author-bashing. I'm just being quietly boggled, and reminded of an old joke about selling apples during the Depression.

Trapped in amber

06-06-2005, 11:14 AM

There have been a couple of odd ebay listings by PA authors. I'm wondering if they think such a listing might provoke publicity, and be an effective form of promotion? The trouble is, they're told and believe success is possible with Publish America, so they keep coming up with ways to make it happen. These run from reasonable idea, but can't work, to very strange indeed.

Renee

06-06-2005, 11:16 AM

I was browsing ebay and thought I'd search Publishamerica. Some book-jobbers, and assorted hopeful authors.
One author is more hopeful than most - she's offering a copy of her book (poetry) for an opening bid of $7,500.00.

Must be one hell of a book. :ROFL: That's...just...an insane amount. And you said the author has it listed, herself, for that overly blind optimistic amount? Let me guess 0 bids?

Well ... it's autographed.

Hhaha..for that price I would hope so. Heck I'll autograph..most anything..for that amount. lmfao..
:banana:

Apologies if this is author-bashing. I'm just being quietly boggled, and reminded of an old joke about selling apples during the Depression.

This isn't author bashing, to me. We aren't even aware of the person's name for one thing. And this shows what PA and their constant dead-end game plan drives people to...

If PA would give their books bookstore placement the PA authors wouldn't have to do overzealous and sometimes ridiculous means of promotion.

PA - you suck, suck, suck.

PS- Kate, you're saying you got released? Huh, huh, huh? :)

mdin

06-06-2005, 11:47 AM

That is not really the same woman in the Abyss picture is it?! That would be *really* sad.

M.

It's the same person. Different shot of her, but it's her.

Trapped in amber

06-06-2005, 12:03 PM

If PA would give their books bookstore placement the PA authors wouldn't have to do overzealous and sometimes ridiculous means of promotion.

Absolutely. Publish America put their authors in this position. Very few of the ideas I've seen have been weird, and I'm pretty sure those few have been out of desperation.

I'm curious as to how many writers discover how the publishing industry works only when they encounter it? Even writing courses often don't include basic information on publishing. I've noticed what comes across as bewilderment on the PA boards, some authors asking 'what now' type questions. Many don't know how a book, once accepted, finds it's way into readers hands and bookstore shelves. If they hadn't had the misfortune to run into PA and been published with a commercial publisher, then their books would be marketed to retailers by their publisher, and they wouldn't have had to ask those same questions. I've been learning about that (this thread is also useful for explanations as to how commercial publishing works, which at least gives me a starting point; there is a great deal of misinformation circulating about publishing), but when I started writing, it simply wasn't something I thought about. If I hadn't come across references to the existence of literary scams, I may never have begun to think about it very deeply.

Kate StAmour

06-06-2005, 02:42 PM

PS- Kate, you're saying you got released? Huh, huh, huh? :)

Yep. Well, as "released" as a PA book can get anyway. *Sigh* Too bad I'm swearing off chocolate today.

Charlotte M. Leslie

06-06-2005, 03:10 PM

Hi, Old Gal..I'm a hen too. Too bad about the "ban". This will continue
to happen. P.A. does not want the truth about their business practices
to come under public scrutiny. The moment any one speaks out. Boom!!!
They are banned.I have one consolation, make that two. I "popped the
chops" of the poster boy,and I persuaded two people not to sign that
horrible contract with Publish America. Welcome Old Gal. A.W. is the
place to be.

MartyKay

06-06-2005, 03:17 PM

Please stop making fun of the PA covers.

If you don't there will be two four-year-olds and a copy of PhotoShop 1.0 out of work!!! And we wouldn't want that, would we? They'd have to go back to work in the editing department.

Ed Williams

06-06-2005, 03:43 PM

....that most of us feel genuinely sorry for PA authors who have to go to such extreme lengths to try and sell their books. It's like PA sends them unclothed out into an Arctic blast and has no feelings of remorse about doing so. Let's face it, the people who run PA are simply low level crooks. Think about it. Meiners has the gall to issue a low-priced PA piece of propaganda to further bilk money out of his own authors. He's a failed author. Shemp has obvious mental problems and is allowed to abuse anyone he chooses. He's a failed author. Clopper holds people to contracts who have no intention of further promoting their books simply because it's a vindictive thing to do, and it also satisfies his "little man" syndrome. Another failed author. Prather - well, I'll shut up, but she's a really sweet case, too. Failed author. These people remind me so much of the people who ran the Deering Literary scam:

Dorothy Deering - Never legitimately published, pretended to be related to the Morrow family in order to better hustle the bucks.

Chuck Deering - No publishing or writing experience.

Bill Richardson - Dorothy's brother, had a criminal record, wanted for some charges, severely browbeat or abused authors who asked legitimate questions about their books.

Daniel Deering - Ninth grade drop-out, served as a literary agent for his sister.

Know the only true difference between the Deerings and Meiners and Co.? The Deerings just took people's money and never printed any of their books. Because of POD technology, Meiners/Clopper can do the books without incurring much cost to themselves, so they can effect more of an air of legitimacy. Don't kid yourselves, though, they're just a technologically modern version of the age old vanity press scam. Nothing more.

Folks - these people aren't reputable, never forget that. They wouldn't know how a professional publisher operates, so never expect them to act like one. And for all of you PA authors who spout these lines, "I'm so grateful to PA for publishing my book," please do some research on the publishing business. Learn what real publishers do. When I hear a PA author say something like that, it just makes me cringe, it's almost like they're saying, "I signed with PA, they gave me a Butterfinger candy bar in return, and I'm so grateful!" We all, in a sense, sell ourselves to publishers, but at least try to make it worth your while when you do so...

astonwest

06-06-2005, 03:48 PM

One author is more hopeful than most - she's offering a copy of her book (poetry) for an opening bid of $7,500.00.

Perhaps she's trying to recoup her investment in one fell swoop?

M. Story

06-06-2005, 05:24 PM

http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/inv.cgi?offer_id=1286881483&meta_id=1&cpid=5118588&domain_id=1856

Wonder Books in Frederick, MD....hmmmmm??? Who could own that???

Got this from a web search: Wonder Book 1306 West Patrick Street, Frederick, MD 21702, 301-69... http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonidea.gif

AnneMarble

06-06-2005, 05:37 PM

There have been a couple of odd ebay listings by PA authors. I'm wondering if they think such a listing might provoke publicity, and be an effective form of promotion?
I've seen them from non-PA authors, as well, and almost always either vanity-published authors or self-published authors. For example, I remember one who thought she could get publicity by auctioning off the rights to her novels on eBay for $250,000 (plus shipping costs). Did she get publicity? Well a few people blogged (http://www.tilneysandtrapdoors.com/blog/archives/2004/12/19/delusion-thy-name-is-writer/) about it, but that was about it. And mostly, all she got was mockery and pity. For good reason, too -- sorry if some people see that as author-bashing, but she was putting herself out there. If she had put as much work into her writing as she had into her eBay stunt, maybe she could have had a publishable manuscript. She didn't get a single bid.

All the publicity stunts in the world won't help you if you don't have a book people want to pay money to read. Bookmarks, posters, raffles, contests, websites, rants, eBay auctions. They won't work. And even if you have a great book, the stunts won't help you if people can't find the darn thing in the stores. PA doesn't make books easily available in store because 1) that takes money and 2) if they did that, they wouldn't make as much money from authors buying copies of their own books.

AnneMarble

06-06-2005, 05:43 PM

Wonder Books in Frederick, MD....hmmmmm??? Who could own that???

Got this from a web search: Wonder Book 1306 West Patrick Street, Frederick, MD 21702, 301-69... http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonidea.gif

No, it's not them. Wonder Book is a legitimate bookstore, and they have been around longer than PA. They started out in Hagerstown and still have a store there, as well as two in Frederick. From what I heard, one of their Frederick stores (the one on Route 40) is bigger than their original store. (We're talking more than 400,000 books here. That's even more than PA has ever put out!)

You can see their web page here (http://www.wonderbk.com/cgi-bin/wbooks/index.html). Also, according to what I could find on-line, they are operated by Chuck Roberts.

Richard

06-06-2005, 05:44 PM

I think the best one is still the guy who tried selling his book to professional writers like Steven King on eBay, on the grounds that they couldn't possibly write their own books and would only need to slap their name on his ghastly drivel for it to be a worldwide hit.

keltora

06-06-2005, 05:45 PM

ByGrace

06-06-2005, 05:58 PM

I love Wonder Book. They are a huge used bookstore. I buy most of my books there, since I live in Frederick. They also rent videos. We have to be careful not to make assumptions. They have nothing to do with PA.

Rita

Tilda

06-06-2005, 06:07 PM

I was browsing ebay and thought I'd search Publishamerica. Some book-jobbers, and assorted hopeful authors.
One author is more hopeful than most - she's offering a copy of her book (poetry) for an opening bid of $7,500.00.

Well ... it's autographed.

Apologies if this is author-bashing. I'm just being quietly boggled, and reminded of an old joke about selling apples during the Depression.

Ah yes, this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=377&item=8309792392&rd=1)? In comparison, there's a listing (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2232&item=6963139235&rd=1) with all 5 HP books signed by J.K. Rowling herself. For much less munny.
PA is dangerous in the way it messes with people's dreams.

Sheryl Nantus

06-06-2005, 06:11 PM

Ah yes, this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=377&item=8309792392&rd=1)? In comparison, there's a listing (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2232&item=6963139235&rd=1) with all 5 HP books signed by J.K. Rowling herself. For much less munny.
PA is dangerous in the way it messes with people's dreams.

*sigh*

truly, a sad sight.

what's even worse is that she obviously hasn't done a lot of research on how to sell on eBay - you can't just slap up two sentences and expect anyone to fork over that much money.

you have to put in a LOT more in your description to make the viewer interested - as it stands I have no idea what this book is about, other than obviously as little words as possible.

eBay may be good for other things - but as a book selling venue it's not exactly up there with getting your book on a shelf in your local bookstore.

despite what the PA nutcases want you to think.

realitychuck

06-06-2005, 06:38 PM

The problem with publicity stunts for anything is that, unless they're incredibly clever and done by a professional PR agency, everyone will recognize them for what they are. At best, you'll get people commenting on it being a clever stunt; at worst, you'll be laughed at.

But these sort of ideas keep cropping up (mostly because the PA boards don't keep threads so that authors can see they don't work). It's hard for newbies in any area to understand that many of the bright ideas they come up with have been tried in the past and failed.

I find it interesting (and indicative) that PA was willing to go to an entire new message board system so they could do a better job of removing posts, but still can't get their search and shopping cart to work. The search is especially egregious -- they could easily sign up with Google (for a small fee) and have no problems at all.

:idea:But, of course, that would assume they had an interest in selling books to the general public. :rolleyes:

victoriastrauss

06-06-2005, 07:06 PM

I can't help but wonder about this book of Willie's.
If he can sell a 327 page book for $9.95 after saying it couldn't be done, do you think he is offering it to bookstores without the non-return policy?It's only $9.95 during the "pre-release" period. Once it's released (whatever that means), it'll jump to a proper PA price of $24.95.

The book is not available on Amazon (unlike Curlem's other two vanity books). So there isn't even a pretense of bookstore availability. And why should there be? This is PA author-bait, made to be consumed by the faithful, like those Scientology books that only Scientologists buy. I am sure it will be PA's bestselling book, by a large margin.

What really tickles me is the clip art of Michaelangelo's David on the cover, with the titling strategically placed to cover up the naughty bits.

- Victoria

Ed Williams

06-06-2005, 07:13 PM

....and Mighty Land:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=2833&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Might not last very long, so take a look while you can. Actually, if someone would just come on out and say it, and I will, the problem is not that the PA messageboards have spelling and punctuation errors. All boards have that at times, I'm as guilty as anyone. The problem is that some PA authors literally cannot put a coherent sentence together to save their lives, and thus become unwitting advertisements for the fact that PA will "PublishAnything." If I were someone like Danny Ingram, who can obviously write quite well, I would be aghast to have my book placed next to some over there. He's making a good point in this thread, and some in Poz would do well to take heed of the message he's trying to get across...

mreddin

06-06-2005, 07:36 PM

Might not last very long, so take a look while you can. Actually, if someone would just come on out and say it, and I will, the problem is not that the PA messageboards have spelling and punctuation errors. All boards have that at times, I'm as guilty as anyone. The problem is that some PA authors literally cannot put a coherent sentence together to save their lives

I don't think this thread will go as quickly as you might think. Think about it for a moment, who really are the bad guys in this thread? They believe that boards like AW judge PA authors on the basis of their writing skills on forums. I'm sure there are some that indeed cast dispersions on that basis, but clearly they are missing the real points. What PA authors need to see is how their own publisher treats them and the marketplace in general. Instead, someone is successfully diverting their attention to the most pedantic of points. Now I've seen writers grill one another on the use of emoticions on message forums, after all emoticons don't appear in most books nor do they appear in a dictionary. Emoticons are used almost like a dialog tag or action statement, either way it's a shortcut and could be termed "improper" if you desire to be anal retentive about the posts.

Now messages from the staff of PA on the other hand, have been subject to a great deal of ridicule and shall continue to be ridiculed. Why? Those mistakes have been made on press releases, publically released memos and statements placed on their website for the world to see. I believe this can and should be treated differently and I challenge you to visit the websites of Tor or Random House and see how many errors you can find on their public communications (especially to the press) compared to PublishAmerica. If you wish a good example, look at the page with excerpts from Meiner's book and you will understand our concern.

Mike

TracySutterer & GaryRogers

06-06-2005, 07:40 PM

Good morning all,

Ed, I agree with you. I tried to make that point on several occasions on that board and I would get slammed for doing so. I really hated it when the various posters would come on and say something like, "No one who reads cares about grammar and spelling." How untrue!

I know I'm an English teacher and I probably notice mistakes that another reader would not, but the average reader will notice spelling and grammar mistakes. My mom will often tell me about books with those problems and she doesn't have a degree. I believe that some people on the PA board really believe that the average reader is too dumb to notice or care. They need to have respect for the book reading public.

Tracy

Kevin Yarbrough

06-06-2005, 07:44 PM

Oh, by the way, I've been banned againhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smileyflag.gifAh well, time to move on anyway while I work on my new ms. I also have an aversion to sinking ships, even though I adore the water. No matter, PA probably didn't appreciate my lack of contributions to their coffers. I remained steadfast in not purchasing my books; call me crazy, but, I always thought that was the responsibility of the bookstore/readers. And as long as Borders continues to stock my book in the Fairfield store, then I haven't completely lost my self-respect. And when I feel down, I can drive on over and look at it on the one endcap it will remain on. I did just that the other day and walked away with my chin up, knowing that at least I was able to get it into one store. It's a great feeling to know I've got a home store with an awesome staffhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonhi.gifwho are so supportive of me and my efforts w/ my new ms.

Jean Marie, just be careful. You did great having a bookstore stock your book but if you make PA to mad they have been known to take a book out of distribution until you appologize. To much of a pain in the arse= no book distribution.

Ed Williams

06-06-2005, 07:51 PM

I believe that some people on the PA board really believe that the average reader is too dumb to notice or care. They need to have respect for the book reading public.

Tracy...you may have just captured the essence of the entire problem. The typical reader of a PA book (the author's family and friends) is not going to be very critical of spelling or grammatical errors, instead, they're going to tell the author that it's wonderful beyond belief. When the poor author tries to get his/her book out into the real world, that's when the potential for embarrassment or hurt feelings rears its ugly head. Yet another instance where PA does its authors absolutely no favors at all...

Jaws

06-06-2005, 08:07 PM

How come Lulu, which uses the same technology as PA, can post sales hour-by-hour and pay royalties every month within five days of the end of the month, while listing "retail sales" as a block on the last day of each month, but PA can't?
It's more pragmatic and insidious than you might think.
LS is owned by Ingram.
Ingram participates (however indirectly) in BookSense.
Due to various contractual terms with BookSense, there's some exclusivity of reporting involved; I haven't gotten a straight (or consistent) answer on this, and nobody will show me the actual contracts unless/until formal discovery commences.
In other words, it's a contracts and unfair-competition thing. Given that Lulu does not participate in BookSense, those considerations don't enter into it.

In other words, Ingram is perfectly capable of doing exactly what Lulu does; it chooses not to do so.

Jackie

06-06-2005, 08:31 PM

Who is LuLu?

Jackie Wellman

mreddin

06-06-2005, 08:31 PM

In regards to Willy's "statistics" in his new book that are displayed on PA's website, I contacted a consultant I have on retainer for retail bookstore planning and development. (I'm not going to give names. sparing them any harrassement from the POD Squad.) Those of you in the ABA or own a bookstore will know the source. I cut and pasted Willy's claims found here:

http://www.publishamerica.com/inside_story/index.asp

This is their response to my query...

What?! I'd press them to name their sources. I'm not familiar with these
figures and they seem suspect and slanted.

Let me know if they come up with a response.

These folks are specialists in launching or overhauling bookstores for profitability, so if anybody understands bookstore statistics, these folks will have them readily available. So Willy, where did you get your facts and figures?

Mike

clintl

06-06-2005, 08:59 PM

Who is LuLu?

http://www.lulu.com

It's a free POD service, although you can pay for some extras.

TracySutterer & GaryRogers

06-06-2005, 09:01 PM

:idea: Okay. This is a message to all those PublishAmerica Newbies who lurk and absorb everything which is commented about PublishAmerica on this board. Think of Absolute Write as a crystal ball and this is your glimpse into the future. Get a clue, already!

As evidenced by the current blurb which appears on the PublishAmerica home page which is promoting Meiners attempt to place a public relations spin on PublishAmerica's corporate mentality. If you have gleamed anything from the promotional material, you will realize that PublishAmerica admits that it is a vanity publisher which rejects the traditional book publishers marketing of its authors and shelving books in brick and mortar book stores.

PublishAmerica is in the business of distributing books to author's friends and relatives through the writers blind egotistical boasting that they have a book in print. PublishAmerica relishes the exuberance of the author's manic obsession to promote the book anywhere and everywhere. It is also quite evident to this writer that PublishAmerica is counting on their authors to drain their bank accounts to order books and absorb all marketing costs. Reality sets in when the author receives their paltry royalty checks and compares it to their expenses.

Yes, you will be grateful to PublishAmerica for getting your book in print. However, acquiring readers of the book outside your inner circle will be a tough sell due to the price of the book. Look at the pre-release price of Meiners book: $9.95 vs. $24.95. The normal pre-release of an authors book is a mere $5.00 off the sticker price, which induces the buyer to purchase the book and save shipping costs. Newbies, please take a step back and see the future.

Once your mind has recovered from the shock, you will admonish PublishAmerica for its deceptive advertising and lures which trapped you for seven years. Wake up and smell the coffee!

For those who are under the spell of receiving a contract and just about to sign on the line - be advised that you are making a deal with a company that could care less about your book and having it shelved in a bookstore.

You have been duly advised and warned of the consequences regarding signing with PublishAmerica, and future ramifications of this action.

This is your Brain. This is your Ego. This is your Brain and Ego on PublishAmerica: :banana:

This is your Brain & Ego after learning the price of the book, and that booksellers will not shelve your book: :confused:

This is your Brain & Ego when you receive a royalty statement and compare it to your marketing expenses: :faint:

This is your Brain & Ego after you have been Banned from the PublishAmerica's Public & Private Boards when you complain: :mad:

Any Questions?

Argile Stox

Banned-Aide

06-06-2005, 09:26 PM

Very nice summary Argile.
I have been with PA for years. I've done EVERYTHING to promote. Radio, internet radio, public speaking, book signings, written articles for magazines. You name it, I've done it. But no matter what; you will never get away from the bad PA name, books taking up to three or four weeks for delivery, the no return policy, and the high price.
Listen to Argile. He knows what he's talking about. If not Argile, then listen to your common sense.

BA

M. Story

06-06-2005, 09:38 PM

No, it's not them. Wonder Book is a legitimate bookstore...

If they're legitimate, how come they're peddlin' Mr. M's book? http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif Anyone live in the area that can check & see if there are hard copies of the book in the store? I'm just curious...

Sparhawk

06-06-2005, 09:47 PM

:Clap: :Clap: :Hail: :ROFL:

Pictures are worth a thousand words. EXTREMELY WELL SAID. (Alright so I used words too)

realitychuck

06-06-2005, 09:47 PM

The website a9.com (http://www.a9.com/)is a search engine that lets you write reviews of websites.

Right now, the PA site is the first site listed when you search on "PublishAmerica." You can write a review of the site.

I'd suggest some more of us do so. It requires an amazon.com userID. You can see their rating at http://tinyurl.com/92rtl

It's a little thing, but if it alerts one newbie, it'll be well worth it.

realitychuck

06-06-2005, 10:00 PM

A further look at the site shows how PA's been doing for web traffic. It hit a peak in August (around royalty time), nosedived through March, then picked up in April. Its peak each month since then has been a little smaller each month.

Interesting fact: 11% of those visiting the PA main page went to the PADB.

AnneMarble

06-06-2005, 10:26 PM

If they're legitimate, how come they're peddlin' Mr. M's book? http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Because they can? :) They're a used bookstore, so if it is available, it's possible they even got used copies that they're trying to get rid of.

I think previously, there was an issue with retailers on eBay and Amazon claiming they had copies of PA books for sale. Some people thought this meant they were getting copies that weren't supposed to be available. However, in all cases, it turned out they didn't actually have them in stock, but were listing them simply listing the titles as available because they had ISBN numbers, were in print, and thus, they thought they could order them if they got an order.

Jeff

06-06-2005, 10:26 PM

He's making a good point in this thread, and some in Poz would do well to take heed of the message he's trying to get across...

Irony hat on.

Perhaps what PA needs to do is apply a stringent set of criteria that must be met to allow a PA writer to post on their boards. Posters would be made to take a test before they post to prove that they understand basic spelling, grammar, punctuation and have the ability to construct a coherent sentence. Only then would they be allowed to post.

Please don't misunderstand -- PA will still print anyone's book, it's just that in order to post on their public board, one would need to be vetted.

After all, more people will read the public postings than will read any particular PA book...

Irony hat off.

mreddin

06-06-2005, 10:32 PM

The website a9.com (http://www.a9.com/)is a search engine that lets you write reviews of websites.

Right now, the PA site is the first site listed when you search on "PublishAmerica." You can write a review of the site.

Here is my review I just posted...

"The Art of the Con"

The literary world has been plagued for a century by those who seek to bilk writers out of their cash and abscond with their dreams. My main beef with their site is the outlandish hype and outright lies or distortions.

PublishAmerica is in not any sense a "Traditional Publisher".

Why?

Real publishers proactively get their authors into bookstores and understand that most book sales occur in retail bookstores.

Real publishers actually do a full copy edit and if necessary a developmental edit to ensure the highest possible quality of an author's title. PublishAmerica does little or no editing on all of their titles. Here is a great example, one of the proprietors of PublishAmerica has written a book called "PublishAmerica: The Inside Story of an Underdog With a Bite". If you click on the link you will see quotes from the book, demonstrating several egregious spelling and grammatical errors. Would you expect something like this from a "traditional publisher" like Random house?

Real publishers typically pay more than $1 royalty payment. The few small publishers that do not provide an advance, at least base their royalty figures on the gross retail list price of the title and not on net earnings.

Real publishers have marketing and publicity teams that work hard to get author's titles recognized. PA recently announced "a plan is in the works". This does not help any of their "13,000 happily published authors" left dead in the water.

Real publishers actually vet their manuscripts, choosing the ones with the best chance of marketability both for their own sake and that of the author. PublishAmerica does no such thing. Do a google search on "Atlanta Nights" and "The Purple Poney" on how PublishAmerica repeatedly falls for "sting" manuscripts.

Real publishers do not threaten, marginalize, alienate or abuse their authors. Do a google search on "Tone Letters" and you shall be whisked into an abusive world where authors are ridiculed and browbeaten for asking simple questions.

Hopeful writers should stay far away from PublishAmerica.

Mike

ByGrace

06-06-2005, 10:33 PM

If they're legitimate, how come they're peddlin' Mr. M's book? http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif Anyone live in the area that can check & see if there are hard copies of the book in the store? I'm just curious...

I wouldn't call it peddling. Wonder Book is a used bookstore. This is a used copy of a book he wrote back in 2000. The way Wonder Book works is people bring them their used books. Wonder Book buys them for dirt, sits them on the shelves and sells them used. The place is stocked from floor to ceiling with books stacked on the floors. I guess you could liken them to a book thrift shop.
I know this because they are right down the street from me and I shop there a lot.

M. Story

06-06-2005, 10:45 PM

The place is stocked from floor to ceiling with books stacked on the floors. I guess you could liken them to a book thrift shop.
I know this because they are right down the street from me and I shop there a lot. It sounds like a place where I'd spend a lot of time if I lived nearby. I'd enjoy browsing, and would probably spend way too much. :rolleyes:

Ed Williams

06-06-2005, 10:56 PM

...to give credit where credit is due. I know I'm typically pretty critical of Meiners and Co., but they have perfected something they should be credited with. A new technology that places them way out front in a category all of their own. Folks, when you sign with PA, you've signed with the most modern publishing technology available - HOD! And what, pray tell, is HOD? Well, it's:

Hell On Demand!

Now enjoyed by PA authors nationwide!

James D. Macdonald

06-06-2005, 11:19 PM

Well, by golly! Compare the traffic for PublishAmerica (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/theweb/B0002RH4F0/traffic/103-3474781-7684613?url=http://www.publishamerica.com/&size=medium&range=1y) with the traffic for AbsoluteWrite (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006AROU/ref=alx_dp_tr_1/103-3474781-7684613?v=glance&vi=traffic&url=http://absolutewrite.com/novels/summer_light.htm). We have 'em beat by an order of magnitude. Where's your eight million visitors a month now, PA?

(Oh -- and Lulu is a POD printer. See the Lulu Experiment (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4279&page=2) from yesterday. See also Atlanta Nights (http://www.lulu.com/travis-tea).)

mreddin

06-06-2005, 11:31 PM

Obviously PA Authors are following this thread here, because suddenly there is a bad review of AW posted how everyone wastes their time "spreading rumors" about PA and "slamming authors". Sounds like someone who has neither read much of this thread and obviously has not bothered reading any of the dozens of topic/genre specific gold nuggets on these forums. The irony and audacity of it, is this woman faults you folks for foiling PA author attempts at success! Reminds me of a beaten spouse defending her abusive husband. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteShrug.gif

Sheryl Nantus

06-06-2005, 11:34 PM

Ed Williams

06-06-2005, 11:34 PM

Jeff

06-06-2005, 11:37 PM

From a published or soon-to-be published PA writer:

I must say I'm very proud of my book, everyone who reads it loves it!

Every author is proud of their book. Writing a book takes a lot of hard work and dedication. Each one is, to my mind, a learning process. Your first book is like your first hundred push-ups; you are training your muscles to perform.

Even if they are not interested in the metaphysical, they love the book. Yes they are friends, and family, a couple of aquaintences etc..but all good comments.

"Honey, I love ya, but your book -- you know, the one you worked on for years -- sucks rocks. It really stinks! Pass the butter, please?"

I suspect few people will ever hear such things from friends, family and a couple of acquaintances onto whom you have pressed your book. The real test is to have your book placed in the public market where it can compete with others for a readers attention. Without actual physical placement in a large number of bookstores, it is very unlikely that anyone aside from friends, family and acquaintances will ever find it. If by chance someone does stumble upon your book online, the higher cost your "publisher" charges for it when compared to others of the same size will likely turn off any potential buyer. If they do decide to buy, the fact that it often takes three weeks for an ordered PA book to show up somewhere will not impress anyone.

The deck is not stacked against you, Cristina. The truth is that you are not even at the table playing the game yet.

I wish I had the money to promote the book more because I know it's so fabulous it's got to get out there!

Spending money to promote your book is not your job. It is the job of your "publisher". However, it is obvious that PA does not want your book to sell to anyone but your friends, family and acqaintances because they do little to no promotion in the mainstream sense. Your book is not in bookstores. They do not get reviewed in the major press. Your "publisher" does not attend local or national bookselling events in order to promote their catalog of books. They have no catalog of books, just a web site that is unsearchable because it has been broken for months. They have no sales staff to call on the national chains nor the small local booksellers.

They do not want to sell a lot of books, Cristina. They want you to sell about 75 copies to your friends, family and acquaintances and then to go away quietly -- unless you have another book for which you are willing to do all of the promotional and sales work by yourself again.

That is how they make their money.

. But don't that's the only hang up. I decided not to worry about it anymore! My book came out in March. According to Ingrams I've sold two copies, both in England, one on Amazon in the US. I've had more luck on ebay than anyother place. It's also being stocked at La Verne bookstore, in California. I've never heard of it so if any of you are familiar with that bookstore, please let me know or send me a link or something!

To sum up: Your book came out in March, and so far you have sold a total of three (3) copies unaided by auction and it is in one (1) physical bookstore.

Do me a favour. Go down to your local large bookstore and find the metaphysical book section. Look at the titles. Notice the publishers. Most are what can be called smaller presses. Had you been able to land a contract for your book with one of them, you would most likely have seen those numbers above increased one hundred (that's 100) fold. You would be looking forward to your royalty check, instead of "decid(ing) not to worry about it anymore!".

And if all the publishers in your genre rejected the book, then it may well be an indication that you need to improve your craft and write a better one next time.

Still I'm a bit discouraged everytime I visit AMAZON or B&N and see my rating at over a million LOL http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif Keep visualizing lesser numbers hoping it will happen SOON! I hope by next year my book will gain more momentum and sell more copies.

Unless something changes Cristina, your book is going to languish for seven years with a printer who poses as a publisher, one who does little to nothing to promote it, one who charges too much for it, one whose policies (no returns, short discounts and high prices) guarantee that you will never have widespread bookstore placement, one whose own ordering system is broken and which in many cases takes 3-4 weeks to get the book to your readers when it isn't, one who promotes itself looking for new writers instead of promoting your book and one who simply, absolutely and unarguably shows nothing but disdain and disrespect for the writers who have signed a contract with them.

There is one thing, Cristina, if history is any indication. Most likely, by next year, you will be an angry PA author and will have either faded away or have come to places like this to have your voice heard.

I read in my PA contract if the book doesn't sell they will drop me. Again I'm not worried about it. I'm going to keep on hoping and trucking on. IN the meantime I need to finish up my next two book projects.
Don't worry about being released. Few are, even if they ask to be. It costs PA nothing to hold onto you and to keep your book from selling for the entire seven years, indeed, it seems sometimes that they do so just out of spite.

And please, for the love of your writing, do some more research before you finish those next two books. Try submitting to some of the legitimate genre publishers before you elect to go the vanity route - whether that be a place like Lulu or PA. Your self-esteem will be better for knowing that a mainstream publisher vetted your work and decided to put their money behind it. Your writing will be better for doing more of it, instead of having to do the promotion that your publisher should be doing. And your wallet will be better for actually getting paid a decent royalty (hint: it should be on the retail price of your book) with responsible and accessible accounting.

Luck to all, http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

And luck to you, Cristina. You have some hard truths and some bitter lessons to learn as your association with PA continues. I hope that for your next two books, you find the success that Publish America is keeping you from.

Dawno

06-06-2005, 11:39 PM

how's their spelling?

:banana:

misuse of it's for its
some punctuation problems
the logic could use some work
spelling looked ok

Charlotte M. Leslie

06-06-2005, 11:39 PM

Received an email from P.A. author. He would like to know, if I want to be
a part of the new adventure ? Seems, several P.A. authors are donating
four or more books to a book store. The book stores will agree to feature
the books for a period of ninety days. At such time they return the books
to the authors. Authors will pay for shipment to author in charge. He will
in turn ship to book store. Author must then pay to have his/her books
shipped back....Whew !! All that money on shipping the books. Just one
more scam over there. Makes you wonder who came up with this one?
Of course, I'm not interested, but many will be . It's very sad.

Sheryl Nantus

06-06-2005, 11:47 PM

pepperlandgirl

06-06-2005, 11:56 PM

The new author from PA mentioned she had a book stocked in a bookstore in La Verne, CA. I'm deeply curious about which one, specifically. I've never seen a PA book "in the wild." I guess there aren't many in town though, I could always go on a hunting expedition...

MacAllister

06-07-2005, 12:03 AM

I've never seen a PA book "in the wild." I guess there aren't many in town though, I could always go on a hunting expedition... Pepper, ouch!

That brief statement sums up the whole problem with PA, soooooo precisely ...

James D. Macdonald

06-07-2005, 12:09 AM

It's also being stocked at La Verne bookstore, in California. I've never heard of it so if any of you are familiar with that bookstore, please let me know or send me a link or something!

That isn't a bookstore. That's the location of one of Ingram's warehouses. If Ingram has one in stock, that's where it's located.

DaveKuzminski

06-07-2005, 12:13 AM

We have to be very quiet as we safari through the country trying to find the rare PAbook in the wild. It's quite elusive, preferring to migrate to Maryland where it mates and in the process produces a green substance almost as valuable as gold. However, most of those varieties are quite tame and can be handled by authors whereas the most valuable are the ones that only real readers can grab, but there are so few, possibly due to Dutch poachers and armed English majors, not to mention the occasional virus-afflicted failed-novelist computer consultant, that it's just about impossible to ever find one.

Ah! Is that one there? Some of them are quite good. Isn't he a beaut?

mreddin

06-07-2005, 12:14 AM

That isn't a bookstore. That's the location of one of Ingram's warehouses. If Ingram has one in stock, that's where it's located.

Well even that's something Jim. The few books I've called into the Ingram stock hotline from PublishAmerica has been typically listed as "0 in stock, 0 sold so far this year". Could this mean they finally fixed the Lightning Source stocking problem?

James D. Macdonald

06-07-2005, 12:17 AM

Could this mean they finally fixed the Lightning Source stocking problem?

Maybe. She says she's sold two via Ingram? Perhaps the LaVerne warehouse handled the transactions and the listing there is a ghost.

mdin

06-07-2005, 12:26 AM

...the bad review is from a PA author who has never posted anything else to Amazon

Maybe it's a different review, but the one I just looked at has reviewed books before. She seems to have liked them all. Surprise, surprise.

##

On another note I'd like to publicly apologize to pachick for assuming she was a PA employee. I now know who she was and what she was doing. Very amusing.

mreddin

06-07-2005, 12:28 AM

Well there is only one bookstore in La Verne, CA (that is an ABA member) and it happens to be a children's bookstore, so your not likely to find a metaphysical title there. This does not preclude used bookstores or the rare non-ABA member.

Mike

Sher2

06-07-2005, 12:46 AM

Ah! Is that one there? Some of them are quite good. Isn't he a beaut?
Who's got the ammunition?

DreamWeaver

06-07-2005, 12:47 AM

Trying-to-suck-in-my-own-face girl. Here (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookstore/images/products/1413777589.jpg) we have her weeping. Coming in a day late and a dollar short...

Never mind Trying-to-suck-in-my-own-face girl. What's really great about this cover is Robin-Hood-in-a-crosslaced-corset, right behind her. Is that a townhouse or is he trying to play the accordion?:D

Kris

pepperlandgirl

06-07-2005, 12:49 AM

TracySutterer & GaryRogers

06-07-2005, 01:02 AM

Truth In Advertising - Something About PublishAmerica Claims That It Is A Traditional Book Publishing House?

http://www.lawpublish.com/ftc-adfaq.html

"How does the FTC determine if an ad is deceptive?

A typical inquiry follows these steps:

The FTC looks at the ad from the point of view of the "reasonable consumer" -- the typical person looking at the ad. Rather than focusing on certain words, the FTC looks at the ad in context -- words, phrases, and pictures -- to determine what it conveys to consumers.
The FTC looks at both "express" and "implied" claims. An express claim is literally made in the ad. For example, "ABC Mouthwash prevents colds" is an express claim that the product will prevent colds. An implied claim is one made indirectly or by inference. "ABC Mouthwash kills the germs that cause colds" contains an implied claim that the product will prevent colds. Although the ad doesn't literally say that the product prevents colds, it would be reasonable for a consumer to conclude from the statement "kills the germs that cause colds" that the product will prevent colds. Under the law, advertisers must have proof to back up express and implied claims that consumers would take from an ad.
The FTC looks at what the ad does not say -- that is, if the failure to include information leaves consumers with a misimpression about the product. For example, if a company advertised a collection of books, it would be deceptive if the ad did not disclose that what consumers actually would receive were abridged versions of those books.
The FTC looks at whether the claim would be "material" -- that is, important to a consumer's decision to buy or use the product. Examples of material claims are representations about a product's performance, features, safety, price, or effectiveness.
The FTC looks at whether the advertiser has sufficient evidence to support the claims in the ad. The law requires that advertisers have proof before the ad runs.
What kind of evidence must a company have to support the claims in its ads?
Before a company runs an ad, it has to have a "reasonable basis" for the claims. A "reasonable basis" means objective evidence that supports the claim. The kind of evidence depends on the claim. At a minimum, an advertiser must have the level of evidence that it says that it has. For example, the statement "Two out of three doctors recommend ABC Pain Reliever" must be supported by a reliable survey to that effect. If the ad isn't specific, the FTC looks at several factors to determine what level of proof is necessary, including what experts in the field think is needed to support the claim. In most cases, ads that make health or safety claims must be supported by "competent and reliable scientific evidence" -- tests, studies, or other scientific evidence that has been evaluated by people qualified to review it. In addition, any tests or studies must be conducted using methods that experts in the field accept as accurate.

How does the FTC decide what cases to bring?
The FTC weighs several factors, including:

FTC jurisdiction. Although the FTC has jurisdiction over ads for most products and services, Congress has given other government agencies the authority to investigate advertising by airlines, banks, insurance companies, telephone and cable companies, and companies that sell securities and commodities.
The geographic scope of the advertising campaign. The FTC concentrates on national advertising and refers local matters to state, county or city agencies.
The extent to which an ad represents a pattern of deception, rather than an individual dispute between a consumer and a business or a dispute between two competitors. State or local consumer protection agencies or private groups such as the Better Business Bureau (http://www.bbb.org/) (BBB) often are in a better position to resolve disputes involving local businesses or local advertising. To get the address and phone number of your state attorney general's office, your local consumer agency, or the nearest BBB, check your telephone directory or the Consumer's Resource Handbook (http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/1997res.htm).
The amount of injury -- to consumers' health, safety, or wallets -- that could result if consumers rely on the deceptive claim. The FTC concentrates on cases that could affect consumers' health or safety (for example, deceptive health claims for foods or over-the-counter drugs) or cases that result in widespread economic injury.
What penalties can be imposed against a company that runs a false or deceptive ad?
The penalties depend on the nature of the violation. Among the remedies that the FTC or the courts have imposed include:

Cease and desist orders. These legally-binding orders require companies to stop running the deceptive ad or engaging in the deceptive practice, to have substantiation for claims in future ads, to report periodically to FTC staff about the substantiation they have for claims in new ads, and to pay a fine of $11,000 per day per ad if the company violates the law in the future.
Civil penalties, consumer redress, and other monetary remedies. Violation of certain statutes can result in civil penalties ranging from thousands of dollars to millions of dollars, depending on the nature of the violation. In other cases, advertisers have had to give full or partial refunds to all consumers who bought the product.
Corrective advertising, disclosures, and other informational remedies. Advertisers have been required to take out new ads to correct the misinformation conveyed in the original ad. Advertisers also have had to notify purchasers about deceptive claims in ads, include specific disclosures in future ads, or provide other information to consumer
Bans and bonds: In some cases, individuals have been banned from an industry or have been required to post a bond before continuing business."

PublishAmerica must concede that it is a Vanity Press and that Authors bare the full expense of Marketing, etc.

Any Questions?

Argile Stox

James D. Macdonald

06-07-2005, 01:04 AM

A couple more web pages for you to compare with PA's, in terms of traffic and in-bound links:

SFF Net (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006CEHY/103-3474781-7684613?url=www.sff.net/people.asp)

Making Light (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006FU7U/103-3474781-7684613?url=nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/)

===========

UPDATE:

Any Questions?

Sure, Argile. Have you personally written to the FTC yet, stating the facts as you know them?

Ed Williams

06-07-2005, 01:06 AM

Maybe it's a different review, but the one I just looked at has reviewed books before. She seems to have liked them all. Surprise, surprise....you're right, I went back and looked. Apparently the first time I did the search my computer "locked up" and only showed the AW review. A thousand pardons.

Sara Rachael Hope

06-07-2005, 01:10 AM

TracySutterer & GaryRogers

06-07-2005, 01:15 AM

Sure, Argile. Have you personally written to the FTC yet, stating the facts as you know them?

Working on it. Is anyone else doing the same?:idea:

Argile Stox

Aconite

06-07-2005, 01:16 AM

Obviously PA Authors are following this thread here, because suddenly there is a bad review of AW posted how everyone wastes their time "spreading rumors" about PA and "slamming authors".
This p*sses me off, considering what PA authors say about other PA authors. Just days ago, one PA author came to AW to chide us for attacking PA authors by quoting them, and then called PA victims "suckers" -- and the regulars here called her on it and defended the PA authors. So who's bashing, again?

mreddin

06-07-2005, 01:22 AM

FTC jurisdiction. Although the FTC has jurisdiction over ads for most products and services, Congress has given other government agencies the authority to investigate advertising by airlines, banks, insurance companies, telephone and cable companies, and companies that sell securities and commodities.

Hopefully they wont take the Maryland AG's copout. "Oh, well this is really a business to business transaction so we can't help." Will the FTC take action if a business to business transaction is based on fraud of deceptive practices?

Sheryl Nantus

06-07-2005, 01:23 AM

FYI: I just recieved this today in my e-mail inbox, and thought you might be interested in it.
Regards,
:) D
************************************************** ********************

HI
A group of PA authors is getting together to help promote their books. The general idea is, they are looking for 50 or so authors to join in. If the authors will invest enough to purchase 4 of their own books, then they can be bought at the 55% discount. A representative will approach the book stores and offer them the opportunity to buy these books and have them on hand. The book stores will have the ability to get a 90 day return policy, something PA hasn’t offered, and in so doing increase the likelihood that the stores will stock the books.

This is in the early planning stages and they need authors to join in to make it happen. Please go to the Author Forum at,

http://s9.invisionfree.com/Author_Forum/index.php (http://s9.invisionfree.com/Author_Forum/index.php)?

Join in the discussion and see if this is something you would like to participate in.

Dan

wow... now they can rip each other off.

and who, pray tell, will be this mysterious "rep" who will wander around from bookstore to bookstore with cases of PA books?

*shakes head*

the blind stealing FROM the blind now, it seems... just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...

:Shrug:

and please note that all of these hopeful geniuses are, again, relatively new victims of PA - either their book isn't out yet or it's barely been on the New Releases page...

:Smack:

James D. Macdonald

06-07-2005, 01:30 AM

Working on it. Is anyone else doing the same?

The answer is: Lots have, but not enough yet. Don't be the last PA author on your block to write to the FTC!

Those who haven't gotten with Ann yet for Phase II -- now's the time.

TracySutterer & GaryRogers

06-07-2005, 01:34 AM

Quote:
FTC jurisdiction. Although the FTC has jurisdiction over ads for most products and services, Congress has given other government agencies the authority to investigate advertising by airlines, banks, insurance companies, telephone and cable companies, and companies that sell securities and commodities. Hopefully they wont take the Maryland AG's copout. "Oh, well this is really a business to business transaction so we can't help." Will the FTC take action if a business to business transaction is based on fraud of deceptive practices?

It is the word "Traditional" which implies that PublishAmerica is a full service publishing house. In PublishAmerica's case, that word is very misleading.

In my letter to the FTC, I will demonstrate that PublishAmerica business practices do not fit that definition - and is deceptive.

Argile Stox

Jeff

06-07-2005, 01:36 AM

wow... now they can rip each other off.

Indeed, Sheryl.

What I found interesting is that this appears to be an effort for PA writers to get around the no return policy that PA has. What these writers are forgetting is that in taking those returns there is no guarantee that the books will be in re-sellable condition. Bookstores are not like craft malls, where if you break or tear it, you've bought it. It is quite possible that after 90 days the PA books on those shelves will be torn and ragged.

So what happens when the first 90 days are up and the "rep" recieves a box of PA books in the mail with tears and fingerprints and broken sp(l)ines? Or, what if they come back with the covers torn off (Formula = overworked bookstore clerk+"It said return!"+not paying attention=stripped book?)

The big houses can afford, as we have heard here, to take the loss on the paperbacks and have them stripped and tossed. But for every PA writer's book that comes back in anything but brand new sellable condition, the PA writer is out the entire cost of the book.

Unless they start their own USED bookstore, as their next gimmick?

Ed Williams

06-07-2005, 01:37 AM

...about the quality of posts on the PA messageboards has vanished...

James D. Macdonald

06-07-2005, 01:41 AM

...about the quality of posts on the PA messageboards has vanished...

And you're surprised ... why?

===============

If I wanted to convict Publish America of false and misleading advertising, all I'd have to do is show the judge this "fact" from their "Facts and Figures" page:

FACT #5: PublishAmerica is NOT in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy publisher, and has nothing in common with them. Obviously, our authors are also not being self-published. In the most commonly used context, POD indicates "Publish On Demand", or vanity publishing. Vanity publishers charge for their "services". Some charge a few hundred dollars, others a thousand or more. We are not in that league, in any way, shape or fashion.

mreddin

06-07-2005, 01:44 AM

...about the quality of posts on the PA messageboards has vanished...

I bow before your powers of precognition. ;) http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteHail.gif

M.

NancyMehl

06-07-2005, 01:59 AM

Hey, Kelli D!!!!!

Are you the PA editor who edited my novel, Graven Images????

You don't know the difference between "its" and "it's." It MUST be you!!

HI!!!! :Shrug:

Sheesh.....

Nancy

Ed Williams

06-07-2005, 02:01 AM

I bow before your powers of precognition. ;) http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteHail.gif

M....from Massachusetts here. You know, though, it is bad when a simple thread about the quality of the posts can't last on the PA boards. They not only don't want the truth there, they run from it just as fast as they can...

P.S. A birdie whispered in my ear and told me that the thread has been moved to their top secret boards...

JennaGlatzer

06-07-2005, 02:16 AM

On last check, Ann said that about 40 people had written to her about Phase II. There are more people than that on this thread. So I'll try again...

You DO NOT have to be a PA author to participate. You just have to care about them.

Writing to Ann will not obligate you to do anything, and she will not add you to any list, spam you, or reveal your name to anyone.

All you need to do is write to anncrispin@aol.com with a note that says, "I'm interested in participating in Phase II," and she'll send you suggestions for actions you can take.

Please, folks, we need more action. We're the ones who are going to make a difference.

Julian Black

06-07-2005, 02:16 AM

The general idea is, they are looking for 50 or so authors to join in. If the authors will invest enough to purchase 4 of their own books, then they can be bought at the 55% discount.So they are counting on being able to get the 55% discount by purchasing 200+ books, in total. But have they checked to make sure they can do this? Because experience with ordering other things in quantity at a sliding discount tells me PA wouldn't give them 55% for ordering 4 books apiece of 50 titles. It isn't 55% on 200 books--it's 55% on 200 copies of the same book.

A representative will approach the book stores...Who is the representative? And which bookstores will s/he approach?

...and offer them the opportunity to buy these books and have them on hand.You know, every time I am "offered the opportunity" to spend money, especially on a product that I am unfamiliar with, or that comes from a maker with a shoddy reputation, I'm going to politely decline.

The book stores will have the ability to get a 90 day return policy, something PA hasn’t offered...You might want to start asking some hard questions about why PublishAmerica (http://www.publishamericasucks.com) doesn't offer a return policy, despite the fact that it keeps bookstores from stocking your books.

...and in so doing increase the likelihood that the stores will stock the books.No, it won't. Booksellers know their business, and in believing this plan will work, you're showing that you don't. Yeah, that sounds mean, and I'm sorry--I know you want to get your book out there--but it's just the plain, unvarnished truth.

This is in the early planning stages and they need authors to join in to make it happen.Like the 200 authors book, this is doomed from the start. The intentions are good, but it works from some very misguided assumptions about how books make it onto store shelves.

Jeff

06-07-2005, 02:26 AM

In case anyone is wondering about Ann's Phase Two; I participated. It was painless, took very little time, was not fattening and had no side-effects. If you care and you have a small amount of time to devote one night, please write to her and participate.

Julian Black

06-07-2005, 02:29 AM

A representative will approach the book stores and offer them the opportunity to buy these books and have them on hand. The book stores will have the ability to get a 90 day return policy...But, if I am not mistaken, they are expected to pay for the books up front in order to take advantage of this 90-day return policy.

It doesn't work that way. Part of what makes the returns system work is not having to pay up front for stock. Booksellers don't want to fork over cash for books that probably won't sell, then wait for a refund after they've returned them. And who would manage the money involved?

Yeah, I know this plan will never get off the ground, but someone needs to offer a dose of reality.

Arkie

06-07-2005, 02:29 AM

Has moved to the private board.

astonwest

06-07-2005, 02:31 AM

mreddin

06-07-2005, 02:43 AM

So they are counting on being able to get the 55% discount by purchasing 200+ books, in total. But have they checked to make sure they can do this? Because experience with ordering other things in quantity at a sliding discount tells me PA wouldn't give them 55% for ordering 4 books apiece of 50 titles. It isn't 55% on 200 books--it's 55% on 200 copies of the same book.

A traditional publisher would most certainly honor this request. I'm going to cut and paste several "traditional publishers" discount schedules but leave their names out of respect of the source and their copyright. The bookstore owners on this thread will recognize this I suspect.

Evil Conglomerate #1 with a number of imprints

Freight Policy: Free freight on outgoing orders of all formats to established trade accounts.

SHORT DISCOUNT
All book reorders in the aggregate less than $400 retail value, 40%

All publishers and formats will combine to meet the short discount requirement.This policy does not include initials.

BASE DISCOUNTS
Basic Formats
Mass Market, 44%
Hardcover and Trade Paper, 46%
Audio/Listening Library, 50%

Other Discounts
Audio Downloadable, 50% (nonreturnable)
Beginner Book Games, net priced
Calendars (Trade), 60%
Classics (Adult Mass Market), 48%

MINIMUM SHIPMENT: $200 retail value for reorders, $100 retail value for initials. All publishers and formats will combine to meet the shipment minimum within each warehouse. Shipments that do not meet the minimum will not leave the warehouse and will backorder for up to 90 days in order to combine with other orders. Once a combination of orders exceeds the minimum retail value, it will be shipped.

Co-op Advertising Policy: Allowance is based on appropriate percentage of previous year's (Jan. 1 to Dec. 31) net purchases ... documentation of the actual cost of the promotion and proof of ad must be furnished for reimbursement. (Proof of ad may be stored by account provided that this proof is stored for a least three years, and provided publisher has access to proof. Contact sales rep for details.) ... reserves the right to review the compliance and effectiveness of the expenditure prior to reimbursement. Reimbursements for co-op claims will be made by credits issued to accounts. All claims must be made within 90 days subsequent to end of the calendar year. Pools for allowances are calculated separately by publisher and are based on the following pool:

Co-op Advertising, Audio: 2.00%

Co-op Advertising, Children's (all formats including ...): 4.00%

Co-op Advertising, ...: 4.00%

Co-op Advertising, Trade Paper: 3.00%

Co-op Advertising, Mass Market/Digest: 1.25%

Elite Publisher #2

...trade products and distributed trade titles combine for trade and calendar discounts...

SCHEDULE I--RETURNABLE
Trade Books (Excluding Limited Editions)
Single or Assorted Titles
1 copy, 40%
10 copies, 47%

Limited Editions
(Nonreturnable)
Any quantity, 40%

Co-op Advertising Policy: 2005 RETAIL CO-OP ADVERTISING/PROMOTIONAL ALLOWANCE POLICY

A. ANNUAL PLAN

(1) Each retailer will be allocated three separate annual promotional allowance pools--

(2) Publisher will calculate the pools for each retailer in the following manner: Existing Retailers--The ... Trade pools will each be 3% of the retailer's net purchases of books of that sales division's covered trade imprints for the prior calendar year. The Mass Market pool will be 1.5% of the retailer's net purchases of covered mass market books for the prior calendar year. Net purchases include both direct purchases from Publisher and indirect purchases from wholesalers. New Retailers-A retailer will be considered a new retailer until it has done business with Publisher for a full calendar year. Publisher will allocate pools for a new retailer based on reasonable projections of net purchases for the year. (The projections will be subject to adjustment during the year and may take into account a prior partial year.) Amounts spent in excess of the applicable percentage of the year's actual net purchases will be deducted from the following year's corresponding pool. After the first year, the Existing Retailer calculation will apply.

(3) Subject to the approval requirements set forth in Part (A)(10), a retailer may draw against its available pools for any of the following promotional activities (provided in each case that the title promoted is appropriately featured and the activity occurs within a reasonable time frame for the marketing of the title): retailer-produced bookmarks, posters, or bags; customer mailings; retailer newsletters, magazines, brochures, or circulars; print, radio, or television advertising; retailer seasonal, holiday, or special interest catalogs; author events; advertisements on others' websites. (Other types of promotions will be considered for approval by Publisher.) For each of the above, the retailer will be credited with the retailer's actual cost for the promotional activity, which credit will be charged against the retailer's applicable pool.

Those are real bonafide publishers and their discount and shipping policies to bookstores. I've even cut and pasted in the basic terms of their cooperative advertising offers for bookstores. Does your "traditional publisher" PublishAmerica offer this?? Alas, sadly not and this is why we bristle against their claims to the contrary.

The quantities are all value based, independant of the number of copies or titles. Since these two houses have thousands of backlist titles, a bookstore could order 2 copies of 10 different titles and qualify for the maximum discount, free shipping and even cooperative reimbursement.

Please take note of the coop offers. This dispels the notion that publishers do not make an effort to drum up publicity and sales for their titles. These offers are for any title, bestseller, frontlist or backlist. If a bookstore pitches a title, they get compensation based on a percentage of their total annual expenditures with the publisher. For the larger houses, that can mean 3% of $25,000 or more. Most bookstores jump at this chance because it means cold hard cash back in their pockets (compensated as credit to future purchases, but when your a well known imprint, bookstores are ok with that.) Nearly all publishers including the smaller ones offer some form of cooperative reimbursement programs.

Mike

Jaws

06-07-2005, 03:22 AM

Although I will no doubt be taken as a broken record again, I'd like to put in a plea to stop using the meaningless term "traditional publisher." So far as I've been able to determine, the phrase appears to have first arisen in the early 1990s when NWPI (the infamous Northwest Publishing, Inc., whose principals are currently serving decade-plus sentences for fraud in Nevada prisons) was trying to distinguish itself from, umm, "traditional" vanity presses. NWPI later settled on "cooperative publishing," but "traditional publishing" still doesn't really mean anything.

Despite PA's efforts, it doesn't mean anything today, either.

I suggest using the term "commercial publisher," which is about as close as one can get to a legally defensible term. That's "commercial" as in "stream of commerce"—where one expects to find the books—not as in "commercial TV with beer commercials every eleven minutes". Frankly, continuing to use the term "traditional publisher" is just going to make communication that much more difficult… because even the counsel at publishers one would think of as "traditional" call themselves "commercial."

mreddin

06-07-2005, 03:30 AM

I suggest using the term "commercial publisher," which is about as close as one can get to a legally defensible term.

In terms of misleading advertising, I interpret the expression "traditional publisher" as meaning "just like all the other publishers" out there. I really don't see what else they could mean. I suspect about 13,000 others will say much the same thing, a "traditional publisher" is like the myriad of others. PA even reinforces this presumption with their "Facts" page. So I feel while speaking between ourselves, we'll I'll call it whatever you folks think is best. However, I think it is a key ingredient in PublishAmerica's con and should be revealed as such whether the term is nonsensical or legal. The perception of the meaning is critical to the operation of the scam, because most authors clearly have a unified idea of what is meant and use that as a key determination in signing that damnable contract.

Mike

TracySutterer & GaryRogers

06-07-2005, 03:35 AM

One last thought before I retire for the evening...

What really singes my buns concerning the new offering from Meiners concerning the history of PublishAmerica, is that this book should be sent out to all 13,000 participating authors via a free e-book. PublishAmerica authors should not have to pay to read about a publishing (printing) company that they have signed with for 7 to 80 years.

Is PublishAmerica in serious financial trouble and they need to raise funds through the sale of this book? Is this book a "red herring" to entice a buyer to purchase the company? This book by Meiners is the quintessential definition of a Vanity Book Publication.

If PublishAmerica is reading this Post ("IF?" Yeah, Right! I have a feeling they have an employee whose sole responsibility is to read the Posts on Absolute Write) I believe it would be in your best interests to dispel any inferences that I have raised concerning the company's future viability in the literary marketplace.

Come on Meiners - Make my day! Come forth and spew the corporate line in this forum. What is that you say? 'The book speaks for its self.' Sure it does... In a one sided conversation - in a sound abated room!

Argile Stox

astonwest

06-07-2005, 03:45 AM

Is this book a "red herring" to entice a buyer to purchase the company?

Damn, one could hope......
Maybe Lulu or iUniverse would buy them up...
at least then we wouldn't have to be so ashamed...

Renee

06-07-2005, 04:09 AM

Absolutely. Publish America put their authors in this position. Very few of the ideas I've seen have been weird, and I'm pretty sure those few have been out of desperation.

Yes, that was my point, exactly. It's PA little dead-end game plan in action once again. That's why PA sucks! They drive their authors to desperation in hopes of making a bad deal work, but as the past has proved - it won't work. For anyone publishing through PA - ever. The PA owners do not want their people suceed.

Yep. Well, as "released" as a PA book can get anyway. *Sigh* Too bad I'm swearing off chocolate today.

Awesome news, Kate!:partyguy:You are one step further from being a PA labeled author, you're on a roll! Congratulations! Are you worried they'll continue to sell your book, even though they've released you, and then not pay you royalties? Do they still have you hooked in? I'm currently trapped in mine, but not worried a bit. I'm so over it. Of course, I'm helping with Phase 2 of Ann's crusade, so they won't just keep getting away with it, but they can eat my books for all I care. haha...

MartyKay- Now that cracked me up! Woohoo, that was awesome! :Trophy:

PostShy- I wasn't sure about your name. Did we talk over at PA? Can't recall who you are by your name, since I don't recognize it. I met sooo many people through PA too, so that makes it a tad more difficult to place you. Lots of good (the authors) people over there! Just not the owners/staff..lol...

lindylou45

06-07-2005, 04:10 AM

Working on it. Is anyone else doing the same?:idea:

Argile Stox

This has been done by many, many PA authors. You aren't the first and it's doubtful you'll be the last.

victoriastrauss

06-07-2005, 04:30 AM

Although I will no doubt be taken as a broken record again, I'd like to put in a plea to stop using the meaningless term "traditional publisher."I second Jaws' plea. I really would like to see that silly term vanish from discourse.

- Victoria

Banned-Aide

06-07-2005, 04:31 AM

[QUOTE=TracySutterer & ArgileStox]

What really singes my buns concerning the new offering from Meiners concerning the history of PublishAmerica, is that this book should be sent out to all 13,000 participating authors via a free e-book. PublishAmerica authors should not have to pay to read about a publishing (printing) company that they have signed with for 7 to 80 years.

I couldn't agree with you more. But lets be serious! When is the last time PA GAVE anything to their authors except grief and the chance to buy copies of their own books?

BA

Kate StAmour

06-07-2005, 05:38 AM

Because I have both a sense of humor and a desire to have all of my facts straight, I went to my local bookstore (which happens to be Bamm). First, please know that I love them and will shop there forever. They carry quality books, published by actual commercial publishers.
Ok, back to the story:
According to their clerk, the only way someone can order my book through their "brick and mortar store" is if the customer pays in advance, with a credit card, and has the book shipped to their home address. Funny, doesn't feel like they are planning to carry my book "from sea to shining sea." LOL!

Kate

PS Renee: To answer you question, I have been very vocal about PA for almost a year. At this point, I am ready to find a nice balance between fighting for my rights, and moving on to bigger and better things.

realitychuck

06-07-2005, 05:58 AM

More on the A9.com/Amazon PA rankings.

PA has a grand total of 151 pages linked to their site. Shouldn't that be 10,000 or so? Out of 13,000 happy authors, only 150 link to PA? Admittedly, it's a pretty rough guide, but still . . .

SFF.net BTW as over 900 links; Absolute Write has 184.

Ed Williams

06-07-2005, 06:23 AM

...when a bookstore doesn't even want the person to come in and pick up a PA book. Just to give y'all something to compare this with, my first publisher was literally a retired couple out of Plano, Texas. They had their own printing press and were going to do small print runs of specialty type books. They took mine because they liked southern humor - eight months after it was released, this tiny publisher signed a deal with AWBC, the distributor for BAM, and my book ended up on the shelves of every BAM bookstore. Think about that. An elderly retired couple could manage to get my book stocked, yet PA, big ole PA, the publisher who is blazing the trail in the publishing biz today, can't get one out of their many thousands stocked...

Sara Rachael Hope

06-07-2005, 06:34 AM

PA says it has 13,000 "happy" authors...according to ?, and talk about false advertising! Taking a survey would be ludicris though...

I looked up "publish" in the dictionary. It means: To Announce To The Public
The 100 addresses each author (was required...oops!, as I'm clearing my throat, I'm sorry, I mean) provided the firm (which I think can be considered just a printing company by now!) arrived announcing the author's announcing of their own book to each addressee. Not PA.
They list and account, for what?, and don't publish anything except what appears to be 'coming out' (and only now) by the owners themselves.
Think any lawyers will put the author first?, even those who are still 'in the dark' or lack information from the get-go?, and not just themselves? It would be nicely refreshing!
Hmmm...

Kate StAmour

06-07-2005, 06:43 AM

Ed, your "first book" story is the kind of story folks should take notes on. Thank you.

Kate

ResearchGuy

06-07-2005, 08:28 AM

I second Jaws' plea. I really would like to see that silly term vanish from discourse.

- Victoria
Perhaps one can resort to an anagram of that dumbass phrase: ABERRATION DULLISH PIT; ROTATABLE INSIPID HURL; ARBITRATION DUPE SHILL; DIARRHEAL BOTULIN SPIT; and ... with this one I will stop ... PARANOID BULLSH!T RITE.

For a zillion more, try http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/advanced.html

--Ken

batgirl

06-07-2005, 10:40 AM

I just found a box of my juvenilia. Is the idea of using PA as a sort of hard-copy backup for 'trunk novels' still considered a worthy waste of their resources? (Oh gods, I see I wrote poetry in high school - but at least if it was meant to rhyme and scan it did rhyme and scan.)

Also, has anyone managed to identify the photo-database PA's cover designers are using?

astonwest

06-07-2005, 03:32 PM

I just found a box of my juvenilia. Is the idea of using PA as a sort of hard-copy backup for 'trunk novels' still considered a worthy waste of their resources? (Oh gods, I see I wrote poetry in high school - but at least if it was meant to rhyme and scan it did rhyme and scan.)

If you don't want to have the material distributed, and want to have it in book form, I'd think Lulu.com would be the way to go...although Kinko's might be an option as well...

MacAllister

06-07-2005, 04:06 PM

Just wanted to back up what Jenna said, upstream. If you can write a letter, you can participate in Ann Crispin's phase II. It's fast, painless, and might do a lot of good.

Heck, I'm writing letters, and I'm a complete nobody. Come on, folks--those of you who've been directly affected by this company, especially!

I'll volunteer to help copy-edit or look over letters, and I know Jenna offered to help, too.

Email (not PM) anncrispin@aol.com
(anncrispin@aol.com) and let her know you're interested in helping.

Ed Williams

06-07-2005, 05:25 PM

...where the book sales schemes are anything but bland...

Today the big pitch is to tout the fact that PA's books are non-returnable as an environmentally friendly thing. To wit:

Some of the national chains (didn't mention any names) have a requirement that if a book does not sell within a certain timeframe, the store is to tear the cover(s) off the book(s) and return it to the publisher. Rationale is that this saves money on shipping and handling. The book is required to be destroyed; it cannot be given to charity, hospitals, etc. This kind of puts a twist on the logic that PA's books are not purchased by the national chains because they are not returnable.No, you're putting an incredible twist on the logic that PA's books are not purchased by the national chains because they're not returnable. Bookstores have to have the ability to return books, if they didn't it would put them out of business. Granted, not all books make it, but no one knows beforehand which books that will turn out to be. If bookstores were required to purchase books they couldn't return, it would financially bankrupt them. That's the ballgame, folks, it's profitable and it works for both the publishers and the bookstores. PA simply chooses not to play because it can make easy, guaranteed money shilling books to its own authors.
PA could use this as a marketing tool (environmental friendly) - I mean, think of all the wasted paper through this process. In fact, the PA About Us section says "the company can afford to sell all copies of a book on a non-returnable basis. Consequently, no book is ever wasted now that each copy can be printed in accordance with real demand." Since this IS company policy, it should not be hidden but exploited due to its envrionmental friendly nature....You're right, this policy is exploited by PA, exploited to the detriment of its own authors. Besides, no book in America would ever sell with this marketing plan - unknown author, unknown book, environmentally friendly publisher!Everyone keeps talking about our no return policy, but what we fail to realize is that PA is NOT the only publisher with a no return policy. Why do you think that bookstores have sidewalk sales with discounted books? It is because they cannot return the books and they are trying to recoupe some of their money.

Most of the time the big name stores dont want to order books by unknown authors, for fear they will not sell, and they use the NO RETURN policy as a polite way to say NO.Most times the exact opposite is true, sidewalk type sales are used to blow off the few remaining copies of a book that did sell well. If the bookstore ordered the book several times there's a good chance that at the end of its sales cycle a few copies will be left over. Classic sidewalk sale material.

Such is life in that Great and Mighty Land, where messageboard bannings have sure made that sucker bland...

Boob

06-07-2005, 05:31 PM

Batgirl: Also, has anyone managed to identify the photo-database PA's cover designers are using?

Yes, I found it on the net. It is a copyright free photo site. I`d have to look for it again, but I did notice that both the image and background on my book-- they took them off the same freaking site page. Good god, they didn`t even look around.

Boob.

realitychuck

06-07-2005, 05:33 PM

The PA board reminds me of a town board meeting I once attended when someone from another town came up with the bizarre plan to make sure his town plowed his private road. The problem there was trying to come up with a plan in total ignorance of the realities of the situation.

That's the PA board in a nutshell. The people there are smart enough, but they are completely in the dark about publishing (something PA encourages, of course). Since they don't know the subject, they keep coming up with marketing ideas that are dead in the water and don't understand why they don't work.

triceretops

06-07-2005, 05:49 PM

robeiae

06-07-2005, 05:55 PM

Ed, isn't it also true that only mass market (small paperbacks) are cover-torn, and not the quality trade pb variety?
I'm not Ed (obviously), but that's a yes, for the most part, according to my bookstore friends.

Also, regarding the PA board and the marketing plans proliferating there...doesn't it seem as though those who come up with these plans see books as just another commodity? Their plans assume that any book is as good as any other, that an autographed copy of theirs, for example, is the same as an autgraphed copy of anyone else's.

Rob :)

Sheryl Nantus

06-07-2005, 06:04 PM

I'm not Ed (obviously), but that's a yes, for the most part, according to my bookstore friends.

Also, regarding the PA board and the marketing plans proliferating there...doesn't it seem as though those who come up with these plans see books as just another commodity? Their plans assume that any book is as good as any other, that an autographed copy of theirs, for example, is the same as an autgraphed copy of anyone else's.

Rob :)

well, judging by the "new" marketing scheme on the other boards, they seem to think that offering up an autographed book automatically increases the value of said book.

obviously none of them have ever actually READ or BOUGHT a book on marketing - and yet they follow along blindly, wallets open and in hand to feed the monster.

PA preys on the innocent and the unknowing... and then feeds them to their own.

James D. Macdonald

06-07-2005, 07:10 PM

...where the book sales schemes are anything but bland...

Today the big pitch is to tout the fact that PA's books are non-returnable as an environmentally friendly thing.

First off, pulpwood is a cash crop. Saying "Save the trees! Use less paper!" is like saying "Save the wheat! Eat less bread!"

Aren't stripped books recycleable anyway?

To move on to specifics:

...if a book does not sell within a certain timeframe, the store is to tear the cover(s) off the book(s) and return it to the publisher. Rationale is that this saves money on shipping and handling.

That's stripping that this author is talking about. Stripping applies to mass market paperbacks, not to trade paperback or trade cloth (hardcover) books. There are three main reasons why mass market books are stripped rather than returned: a) after they've spent their time on the wire rack spinner down at the bus station the book may not be in salable condition, b) the ID distribution system that mass market piggy-backs on isn't set up for whole-copy returns, and c) it's literally cheaper to print a new copy than it is to package, ship, and sort the books. The ID system was created for newspapers and magazines. No one can resell last week's TV Guide, so returns aren't even contemplated.

UPDATE: Clarification, because some people are still foggy on this: It's the cover of the book, not the book-sans-cover that's sent back for credit when a book is stripped.

The book is required to be destroyed; it cannot be given to charity, hospitals, etc.
Or sold without paying the publisher or the author.
In fact, the PA About Us section says "the company can afford to sell all copies of a book on a non-returnable basis. Consequently, no book is ever wasted now that each copy can be printed in accordance with real demand." Sure, the company can afford it. It's the authors who can't.
Since this IS company policy, it should not be hidden but exploited ... It should go right on the front page in boldface italic, with flashing red "WARNING!" notices before and after.
Everyone keeps talking about our no return policy, but what we fail to realize is that PA is NOT the only publisher with a no return policy. Why do you think that bookstores have sidewalk sales with discounted books? It is because they cannot return the books and they are trying to recoupe some of their money. True enough. There are others. Generally speaking, when it's frontlist books that are being sold non-returnable they come with really steep discounts.

Those sidewalk sales: Some of those books are samples that can't be returned because they were never bought. Some were returnable but can't be returned now because they're no longer in print. Some were bought to be sidewalk sale items (books that were returned sold at fire-sale prices by the publishers in order to clear their warehouse). Some were returnable but it would cost more to have an employee sort, box, and ship them than to put 'em on a rack and wheel them out to the sidewalk. Some of them they might be taking a loss on -- but they're getting folks to walk into the store past those piles of best sellers on their way to the cash register.
Most of the time the big name stores dont want to order books by unknown authors, for fear they will not sell, and they use the NO RETURN policy as a polite way to say NO.
Well, yeah. Books that come into the bookstore have to leave one of three ways: In the customers' hands, into the Dumpster, or back to the warehouse. Otherwise the bookstores would have to build all those new bookshelves that PA is constantly talking about.

PA books aren't likely to leave the stores in customers' hands -- the high prices and poor production values see to that -- which leaves the bookstores eating the cost.

Yes, some publishers do use POD for some of their deep backlist items. The prices are high, the discounts are low, the books are non-returnable. They might as well mark them Special Order Only. This is an alternative to putting the book Out of Print.

Sara Rachael Hope

06-07-2005, 07:18 PM

Does anyone know how many other PA's writer's book's bar codes can't be scanned, besides mine? It sorta' makes it good for nothin', huh?
Sorry for the implication that some of us 'were' and unfortunately some still are, PA writers...it's a depressing thought!
One thing I can say though, it's been a very informative and valuable experience!

I still say that they cannot be considered (and cannot and should not continue to do business as) a publisher, since a publisher must 'announce to the public'. The letter they send to the 100 addresses states that the author is announcing the book. I wonder if this then means that the author actually is the publisher of the book and can have a valid case against PA for this or not. Is this valid? Or not?
Anyone know?

Boob

06-07-2005, 07:34 PM

Sara: Does anyone know how many other PA's writer's book's bar codes can't be scanned, besides mine? It sorta' makes it good for nothin', huh?

Why does this not surprise me? :Hammer:

Boob aka Buffy. :ROFL:

James D. Macdonald

06-07-2005, 07:39 PM

Sara, I'm not certain but that the act of posting the titles of the books on their webpage doesn't statisfy the minimum definition of "published."

Remember, with PublishAmerica, the minimum definition of a word is the best that you're going to be able to get.

realitychuck

06-07-2005, 07:45 PM

Also, regarding the PA board and the marketing plans proliferating there...doesn't it seem as though those who come up with these plans see books as just another commodity? Their plans assume that any book is as good as any other, that an autographed copy of theirs, for example, is the same as an autgraphed copy of anyone else's.Excellent point. Many newbie authors figure their work is just as good as anyone else's, and that all they need is to get into the bookstores to be a big success.

But the Stephen Kings and J.K. Rowlings of the world succeed because they are very very very good at what they do, not because their publisher is promoting the book. Promotion gets people to look at the book, but the quality of the book is what ultimately makes it a best seller.

Many PA authors just aren't producing that quality. If they were, a commercial publisher would pick them up in an instant. Those that are producing quality books are handicapped by PA's policies and reputation.

But you're absolutely right -- all books are not of equal quality, and readers will only buy books they perceive as being worth their money.

mreddin

06-07-2005, 08:44 PM

Ed, isn't it also true that only mass market (small paperbacks) are cover-torn, and not the quality trade pb variety? I'm not sure on this but I thought I read Unc Jim's opinon on this subject a while ago. PA books wouldn't qualify for the rip-torn treatment.

Tri

Mass market books are run off in massive quantities using web presses, so their cost is frequently under 1 dollar per unit! So yes, it is cheaper and easier to tear the cover off so for supermarkets especially, this is standard practice. This might apply to magazines as well. It most certainly is NOT standard practice for standard trade paperback books and hard covers! Mass market books are an entirely different category and I believe is generally reserved for best besellers.

PA could simply be ignorant about this, or it could be an outright "fib" as "Uncle Jim" would say.

Returns, well it is certainly true that some publishers would like to end returns, most do not though. A few publishers do not offer returns but the vast majority of them do. Only the POD imprints do not offer a standard returns program because of the nature of the digital "print as needed" business model. I'd be willing to bet that the offset commerical houses not offering returns would be in the single digit percentages.

Why the bargin bin sales? Ingram and B&T only allow up to 10% of your annual purchases to be returnable! So your stuck with the remainder of the books, might as well put them on sale. Only the publishers and distributors allow full returnability but many bookstores deal only with wholesalers to simplfy their ordering procedures.

Mike

DaveKuzminski

06-07-2005, 09:14 PM

That limit on returns protects the distributors and publishers from bookstores that might want to harm a publisher because a book didn't turn out to be as popular as they believed it would be. Otherwise, a store could order hundreds or thousands of copies in retaliation and then return those causing the distributor and publisher to both eat a significant expense.

In other words, the current system contains many checks and balances to protect the bookstores, the distributors, and the publishers from those within the system unwilling to deal fairly.

No returns, huh? Well, that violates the system where it protects the bookstores. Short discounts, huh? Hmmm, that violates the system where it protects the bookstores. No editorial control over the content, huh? Hmmm, bookstores would have customers returning books that the bookstores can't return. Gee, no wonder the bookstores don't want most of those PA books, except as special favors to some local authors.

By the way, the reason local authors are often exempted is because they might be well known enough in the local community to influence local sales in a negative manner. It's generally safer in such instances to invest the expense for one or two copies to carry on the shelf than to risk inflaming part of the public into boycotting the store. This reason, of course, only holds provided the author is courteous when approaching the store. It also applies only when the store can actually get hold of the books. Reluctance on the publisher's part can negate this collorary quite quickly.

James D. Macdonald

06-07-2005, 09:35 PM

As I wander the Mighty Land, looking for the source of Ed's quotes (commented on above), I find this:

Interesting reading...Time Warner Books
Check out the prices and no return policy on POD's
http://www.twbookmark.com/

So off I go:

The address this author seems to be pointing to is this:

http://www.twbookmark.com/printondemand/index.html

where we read

Welcome to the Time Warner Book Group Print On Demand website. Listed below is the list of POD titles that can be ordered directly from TWBG (Time Warner Book Group).

To order, please contact your TWBG (Time Warner Book Group) Sales Representative, Customer Service by calling 1-800-759-0190, or by sending your order to Time Warner Book Group, Att: Customer Service Department, Three Center Plaza, Boston, MA 02108-2084.

POD Discount Terms:
• POD titles are non-returnable
• Retail: 20%, Free Freight
• Jobber/Wholesale: 40%, customer pays freight

Non-returnable, short discount. Check. All part of the POD territory, as we've been saying all along. These books are not meant for bookstore shelving.

Now let's look at the prices for the first twenty books on their list (as a random sample):

ISBN: 0892965010
Format: Hardcover
Pagecount: 336 pages
Date: 1992
Price: $28.00

ISBN: 0446522481
Format: Hardcover
Pagecount: 336 pages
Date: 1997
Price: $28.00

ISBN: 0446670987
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 512 pages
Date: 1996
Price: $19.99

ISBN: 0759550093
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 436 pages
Date: 2001
Price: $18.95

ISBN: 0316181021
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 352 pages
Date: 2000
Price: $19.99

ISBN: 0446672513
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 416
Date: 1997
Price: $19.99

ISBN: 0316584789
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 680 pages
Date: 1991
Price: $28.00

ISBN: 0316174386
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 308 pages
Date: 1988
Price: $19.99

ISBN: 0446516678
Format: Hardcover
Pagecount: 256 pages
Date:1992
Price: $28.00

ISBN: 0316038156
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 256 pages
Date: 1998
Price: $18.99

ISBN: 0316929190
Format: Hardcover
Pagecount: 464 pages
Date: 1999
Price: $32.00

ISBN: 0446672580
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 384 pages
Date: 1997
Price: $22.99

ISBN: 0446393606
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 352 pages
Date: 1992
Price: $17.99

ISBN: 0316284319
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 536 pages
Date: 1994
Price: $22.00

ISBN: 0892965088
Format: Hardcover
Pagecount: 368 pages
Date: 1994
Price: $27.00

ISBN: 0316313203
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 277
Date: 1989
Price: $16.99

ISBN: 0759550085
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 192 pages
Date: 2001
Price: $17.95
(Note: This book was from the short-lived "iPublish" experiment.)

ISBN: 0446523909
Format: Hardcover
Pagecount: 256 pages
Date: 1999
Price: $25.00

ISBN: 0316706027
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 320 pages
Date: 1995
Price: $16.00

ISBN: 0316082422
Format: Paperback
Pagecount: 288 pages
Date: 1996
Price: $19.99

Thirteen out of these twenty are non-fiction.

The paperbacks here are TPB. Let's compare them with TPBs of the same length from PA:

Pagecount -- Time/Warner's price -- PA's price for that length:

192 -- $17.99 -- $19.95
256 -- $18.99 -- $21.95
277 -- $16.99 -- $21.95
288 -- $19.99 -- $24.95
308 -- $19.99 -- $24.95
320 -- $16.00 -- $24.95
352 -- $19.99 -- $24.95
352 -- $17.99 -- $24.95
384 -- $22.99 -- $24.95
416 -- $19.99 -- $24.95
436 -- $18.95 -- $24.95
512 -- $19.95 -- $34.95
536 -- $22.00 -- $34.95
680 -- $28.00 -- $49.95

Difference between PA's prices and TW's prices for POD trade paperbacks:

Mean: $7.30
Median: $4.96
Mode: $4.96

TW is five bucks cheaper. Using the same technology. Interesting indeed.