The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

[DeePower]

Dave, Victoria, Jim: Would you email me a brief one or two sentence description of yourself (bio) that I can use for the query for a potential news article on PA.

LindyLou: Can you email me a short paragraph or two about your experience with PA? The more facts the better.

Rebecca I have you included.

Any more authors out there that would like to tell their story with PA?

Is anyone willing to provide copies of those infamous nasty and rude PA emails for me to excerpt from?

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[DeePower]

authors@brianhillanddeepower.com

Sorry.

Dee

[Selenia692]

omg...I can't stop laughing...damn you I'm trying to finish a project...ahahahahahahahahah

:hail

[James D Macdonald]

An oldie but a goodie resurfaces on the PA boards:

<BLOCKQUOTE>

Subject: The Intelligence of Book Publishers...


Message:
I came across this true story, and thought I'd share it with you all. It really shows you what PA's up against:

A frustrated writer came up with a novel scheme to test the intelligence of book publishers. He retyped into manuscript form "The Painted Bird," Jerzy Kosinski's award-winning novel, and submitted it, under his own name, to a dozen big publishers. They all rejected the manuscript as not being worthy of publication, including the house that had actually published Kosinski's book.

--Not to denounce other publishers, of course, but clearly, these things happen. Just food for thought.

</blockquote>

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5589.htm" target="_new">The Intelligence of Book Publishers...</a>

No, they didn't reject it as being "unworthy of publication." They rejected it as "plagiarism." But, to avoid nasty legal stuff, including possibly being stalked by a nutjob author, they just slipped a standard rejection slip back into the envelope.

I've heard from a couple of editors who've run into similar stuff -- one, at a major science fiction house, was amazed to discover that someone had retyped A Fish Dinner in Memison by E. R. Eddison, and submitted it as his own. (Note, for those who haven't read it -- it's a well-known work, and Eddison's style is distinctive.)

Was it sent in by a scammer who figured that no one would notice? Was it sent in by a nutjob who thought that he was E. R. Eddison? Was it sent in by a clever-bunny newspaper reporter who was trying to prove that editors don't read manuscripts and reject publishable works? Who knows? Who cares? This editor put a rejection slip into the envelope and sent it back. Life's too short, editors have enough other things to do with their time, and playing that sort game isn't part of an editor's job description.

Another editor, at a major publisher, some years earlier, was astounded to discover that someone had retyped Gone With the Wind and submitted it under his own name. Same deal -- instantly recognized, instantly rejected.

I heard both of those stories directly from the editors involved; this isn't friend-of-a-friend stuff.

Now ... to move over to hearsay, I've heard of someone who retyped the script for Everybody Comes to Rick's (the original title of Casablanca) and sent it around to a bunch of major studios and agencies, again without getting a nibble. Proof that no one read it? Proof that they didn't recognize talent? I don't think so, since allegedly one of the agents sent it back with a note that read "I have some wonderful ideas for casting this movie. Unfortunately, most of the actors are dead."


<HR>

I wonder ... if someone submitted The Painted Bird to PA, would anyone there notice that it was a well-known work still under copyright?

[XThe NavigatorX]

this thread is still up!
www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5543.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5543.htm)

I thought for sure this would have been pulled by now .
Guess some others saved the day with their explanations.


The thread has since turned pretty sour. It'll be gone in twelve hours, I bet.

[RealityChuck]

<Now ... to move over to hearsay, I've heard of someone who retyped the script for Everybody Comes to Rick's (the original title of Casablanca) and sent it around to a bunch of major studios and agencies, again without getting a nibble. Proof that no one read it? Proof that they didn't recognize talent? I don't think so, since allegedly one of the agents sent it back with a note that read "I have some wonderful ideas for casting this movie. Unfortunately, most of the actors are dead.">

Actually, the Kosinski story also had the same kicker: the single personal rejection said, "Jerzy Kosinski comes to mind as a point of comparison." I think the editor was saying the same thing.

BTW, the actual novel sent around was Kosinski's Steps, not The Painted Bird. When you see the latter title, you've moved from the facts to the legend.

[CaoPaux]

It seems to me that the bookstore issue has come up more often this past month.

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10679.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10679.htm)
------
Horselover
8/20/2004
19:35:26
Subject: Is your book in bookstores?

Message:
Like a physical bookstore such as Borders or Barnes and Noble, not just online? If so, how did you get them to supply your book on the shelf???

-----
bigliz
8/20/2004
20:35:49

Message:
Horselove, my book is on SOME bookshelves.
One of the bookstores it is in is called Town Crier out of Emporia Kansas.(I did a booksigning with them in April.) Also because I had many friends and family call them and ask if they had the book.( Sick eh? BUT, it seems to work!)
A friend of mine from Madison WI, got Uncle Sim's on shelf at a B&N there. She just asked them too buy a few and they did!
Just be pushy and insane. I swear it works...sometimes.

-Liz Rohloff
author of Uncle Sim's
www.LizRohloff.com

-----
tim186
8/20/2004
20:43:11

Message:
I got mine on the shelves at Borders in Dayton & Cincinatti via an author-friendly area marketing manager, and at a B. Dalton's in Dayton because I bugged the daylights out of the manager.

Keep plugging away - it takes time!

Tim Smith

-----
jthompson
8/21/2004
16:12:27

Message:
My novel, A Brownstone In Brooklyn, is in Barnes & Nobles, Borders, Chapter 11 and other Atlanta/Athens area bookstores.

When I was at the New York is Book County festival last year I approached certain store managers. I was fortunate to get the book into Barnes & Nobles in Manhattan and Brooklyn.

I suggest contacting individual store managers and community directors.

Best of luck.

Julius Thompson
www.authorsden.com/juliusethompson

-----
cheryl_gray
8/22/2004
13:25:28

Message:
Fantastic; hooray for all of you!

But! Did you supply the copies of your books to the stores or did they order them directly form PA?

I am woman, I need facts,

Cheryl Gray
IMMUNE
Barefootin' (coming soon)

-----
greatlakeswoman
8/22/2004
16:14:21

Message:
The Dynamic Great Lakes is in stores, museum shops and libraries. The stores order the books either from the publisher or a distributor.

The Wilderness Within is in a few stores, too, but not as many as The Dynamic Great Lakes which is now returnable. Barnes & Noble, Waldens, Schulers Books and Music, Treehouse Books, and the Bookman carry my books on a regular basis. Upon checking, I found a few more north of here that carry The Dynamic Great Lakes.

Media attention helps a lot. When I approach a store, I often mention the radio, tv and print articles that have featured my books. They like that and are more willing to stock the book if they know that I've been featured.

-----
jthompson
8/22/2004
21:22:47

Message:
Cheryl, in my case the bookstores ordered the books for their shelves. I didn't supply any books.

Julius Thompson
www.authorsden.com/juliusethompson

-----
cheryl_gray
8/22/2004
21:26:50

Message:
Thanks so much. So far I'm only in one store; a local, but very large store.

JT: Very cool photo!

Cheryl Gray
IMMUNE
Barefootin'

-----
Nikkye

8/22/2004
22:17:26

Message:
How did you manage to get your book in Borders? I went to my local Borders and they told me that they usually only stock local authors book if they are of local interest. Seems kind of silly if you ask me and since the only interesting thing about where I live is the Battle Of Antietam....I ask how many more books can be written on the subject!? Anyway....any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Nicole Getridge
Shielded Heart
Captured Heart
www.nicolegetridge.bravehost.com
www.ryze.com/go/Nikkye
www.parauthors.cjb.net

-----
Rita
8/23/2004
10:39:11

Message:

I've tried too. I was told they would not stock my novels because...

no return
high price
and only a 40% discount to the bookstore...the standard, I was told is 50-55% off with a return.

I wish PA would consider removing this roadblock of no returns. Just think if we could all get our books in bookstores, the place people go to buy books. We would increase our sales, and our marketing and promotional efforts would pay off.

It is embarrassing when people in Frederick ask me if they can buy my books at the local Borders or Waldens, and I have to say no you need to order them. They look at me with disbelief and ask why not. When I try to explain they question my publisher every time. Sigh!

-----
wm238
8/23/2004
11:48:22

Message:
i agree this no return policy hurts our book sales beyond measure.

-----
Bonnie Gibson
8/23/2004
14:11:29

Message:
Rita, I agree. I wish PA would at least give a return policy on at least 3 books more if possible, but with 3 at least they would be in the store and someone could buy them. Then the store could replace them as they sell.

PA are ya listening???????

Bonnie

-----
dragonking
8/23/2004
14:48:22

Message:
I went south with books in hand got my book in six different bookstores (all local - no name bookstores on the Oregon coast). Then I went north and everyone threw me out the door. The key is to keep trying, you never know. And I agree with Rita. This no return thing needs to change. Everyone who agrees with Rita should say so, right here, so we will be competitive with other authors and publishers, and maybe get on the NYT bestselling list page without having to buy ten thousand of our books ourselves. If enough of us agree, maybe PA will get the message. Gary Carter - www.garycarter-ent-jumpstart.com

----------------

[Risseybug]

How long before this thread is pulled?? Or is it pulled already. I'll have to look...

Nope it's still there! The PA board overlord must be snoozing...

[Gravity]

Guess the overlords woke up. The thread is gone. Seems they aren't as fast on the trigger as usual.

John

[FM St George]

you'd think they'd be getting a clue when posts keep getting pulled...

:P

[Sher2]

<you'd think they'd be getting a clue when posts keep getting pulled...>

Well, they haven't gotten a clue yet. I think they think that something scandalous and offensive and detrimental to their well being has been said and the overlords have pulled it to "protect" them.

[DaveKuzminski]

I think some of them are fully aware. Here's a topic that I copied yesterday. I modified one word with asterisks to make it less offensive for some readers.

Renee Bagley



8/22/2004
19:53:31
Subject: My Thread got pulled


Message:
And I think that's pretty sh**ty.



SoOTy

8/22/2004
22:23:17


RE: My Thread got pulled


Message:

What was it about? Did something good happen? ;)

Tanutoo

8/22/2004
22:37:26

RE: My Thread got pulled


Message:
Renee,
You better be careful about what you say. They could ban you.

[Sher2]

<I think some of them are fully aware. Here's a topic that I copied yesterday.>

I hadn't seen that one. Interesting.

Hey, my ExPAtriate/Banned tee-shirt came today. I love it!

[DaveKuzminski]

I've noticed in several forums that there are distinct signs of change among some of the formerly ardent supporters of PA. Some lately have taken to stating outright that there are problems with PA and that it's not appropriate for many writers.

The whispered warning about being banned is only the tip of the internal network that will force PA to change. Like it or not, PA has a revolution forming within its boundaries and nowhere to gain allies. Legitimate agencies and publishers won't support PA because of its behavior and policies. PA doesn't dare accept support from scammer agencies or any vanity or subsidy publishers because that would clearly define it as what it has ineffectively claimed it isn't--namely one of them.

The only question remaining is how fast the revolution will build. Will the PA ad in the NYT prop it up until the new year arrives?

I just visited the PA forum to see if another topic had been pulled. I noticed that the new visible only to PA authors board is now open. I also noticed this little note on its opening page: "Posting on this message board indicates agreement to allow PublishAmerica to use the posted text for marketing or other purposes, at its discretion."

Yep, only the good messages will find their way to the visible board. Might as well call it the Stepford board.

Hey, Willem, Larry, and Miranda, you forgot something! Your authors have eyes and they can still read and post on outside boards.

[astonwest]

"Posting on this message board indicates agreement to allow PublishAmerica to use the posted text for marketing or other purposes, at its discretion."

Dave, they've been using that statement (or some variation of it) on their board since its inception (or at least it was there when I started posting long ago)...that's so they can take all the good remarks, and put them in the other areas of the board, such as the 'Testimonials' page...

I wonder how many people even know they've been quoted on that page...I also wonder how many of those people quoted now feel quite differently...

Big Daddy West
:hat

[DaveKuzminski]

This time it appeared to be more prominent to me, so I felt it was worth mentioning.

[snarzler]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5606.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5606.htm)

LindaP
8/23/2004
18:44:00
Subject: Can't order from PA
Message:
I have tried for two hours to get past the PA Bookstore. Every title I type in takes 15 minutes to go to the Error Page. So I go back to the main page, click on This Weeks New Releases. Guess what? Every book cover I click on won't come up. The same Error Page comes up, plus, the bookcovers are so blurry the titles are hard to make out and forget who the Aurthor is. Any idea what the problem is? I sure would like to order, but I have to have the title and author and ISBN#. No way getting that from PA.
LindaP
Silent Killers

rpwilliams
8/23/2004
18:46:58
RE: Can't order from PA
Message:
The last time this topic came up the big, bad, PA logo came on the thread and said, "Sure the online bookstore is down every now and then but we don't think it's down enough to be a big deal."

I made some comment about how I refused to argue with the big, bad, PA logo but that my opinion differed.

Here we go again.
Bob
geocities.com/candide_/

kas
8/23/2004
18:48:49
RE: Can't order from PA
Message:
If your cookies aren't enabled it won't work.
I had some trouble, but went to the ordering page and got through. It was a little slow.
K.A. Schneider
The Scent of Magnolias and Men
ISBN# 1413734421

Joyce Ann
8/23/2004
19:19:10
RE: Can't order from PA
Message:
Same here. Maybe we should tell our readers if they
want to order and can't get through online, to use the
mail order form. What think ye? My grandchildren eat
all my cookies!
Joyce Ann

LindaP
8/23/2004
19:24:51
RE: Can't order from PA
Message:
I think ye is right. You have the same problem with your cookies as I do. But i don't think my cookies is the problem.
LindaP
Silent Killers

Marti2003
8/23/2004
20:06:35
RE: Can't order from PA
Message:
Linda,
I asked last week and PA said they've grown to big and too fast for their server. They are going to upgrade soon, but for now the system is just too busy. Wait until later tonight.
Hugs
Marti
www.casewatchers.com

JuneBug
8/23/2004
20:10:19
RE: Can't order from PA
Message:
I've tried all different times and never can get through! Glad to hear they are updating the system.
June Weiner
HOME SWEET HOME
www.juneweiner.com

JLRutter
8/23/2004
21:32:40
RE: Can't order from PA
Message:
I've given up and just order through Amazon.

[lastr]

books on shelves, less than 1%? (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5620.htm)
Subject: books on shelves, less than 1%?


Message:
I rec'd the following comment in an email from author support . "It may be of interest to you that less than one percent of all authors ever see their books actually stocked by bookstores."

Is this accurate?? I find this concerning. Any thoughts as to why this is true and what can be done about it?

Message:
Consider that at PA alone there are 8000 authors, mostly unknown. Anything written by Dean Koontz is going to find it's way to the shelves along with such notables as the Clinton's are a gimme. But let's assume the average book store carries multiple copies of say 1000 different books. If you do the math, add in all the other publishing houses, all the vanity published books etc. It stands to reason you have to fight for your spot. Notable sales will overcome objections before pleading will. Promote,promote,promote and concentrate on local retailers to begin with.

8/24/2004
17:22:57


RE: books on shelves, less than 1%?


Message:
It's because of the "no return" policy.

Bonnie

[James D Macdonald]

Is this accurate?? I find this concerning. Any thoughts as to why this is true and what can be done about it?

They're counting all books written, not all books published. They're including in the total of "all books": manuscripts that never left the authors' desk drawers, manuscripts that didn't get out of the slush pile, text books that were never intended for bookstore distribution, law books, medical books, atlases ... and vanity published works.

Of the books that are professionally published by traditional houses, darned near all of them get on one bookstore shelf or another (usually lots of bookstore shelves) thanks to the publisher's sales force. How long they stay there depends on the book and the audience.

Figure this, see if it makes sense:

A traditional publisher pays multiple-thousands of dollars in advance money to an author. They edit the book, commission a cover, print multiple thousands of copies then ... "Ha ha ha!" they laugh. "We won't lift a finger to get this book onto bookstore shelves! We won't promote this book! We'll flush every penny we've spent to date straight down the loo because we delight in crushing authors' hopes! Bwah ha ha!"

How would that profit them?

Here's the clue: Businesses want to make money. Not promoting your product -- no matter what business you're in -- doesn't make you money. If publishers are still in business, they're promoting their products pretty well, and getting them to their customers.

How about PA?

Their customers are their own authors, and hardly a month goes by when PA isn't launching some plan or other to induce their authors to buy their own books. This New York Times scheme is merely the latest in a long line of similar promotions. To see who the customers are, look at where the promotion is aimed.

[lastr]

Open Source BB Company (http://www.phpbb.com/)

"phpBB is a high powered, fully scalable, and highly customizable Open Source bulletin board package. phpBB has a user-friendly interface, simple and straightforward administration panel, and helpful FAQ. Based on the powerful PHP server language and your choice of MySQL, MS-SQL, PostgreSQL or Access/ODBC database servers, phpBB is the ideal free community solution for all web sites.

phpBB are a group of individuals based internationally who believe in Open Source software. The project has been stable since its creation in June 2000 without changes in licensing, leadership or corporate associations. Our goals remain unchanged and clear, to continue developing and supporting a stable, free, Open Source forum system."

It's FREE, unless you want them to host it for 7.95 a month. Also it is subject to some rather ominous security flaws that I won't post here. The version that PA is using is *supposed* to have fixed the worst of them but it has only been out for a month and there is some discussion in the security groups about this version still being open to some things.

[lastr]

PublishAmerica - Registration Agreement Terms (http://bb.publishamerica.com/profile.php?mode=register)

While the administrators and moderators of this forum may attempt to remove or edit generally objectionable material, it is impossible to review every message. Therefore you acknowledge that all posts made to these forums express the views and opinions of the author and not PublishAmerica, who hence would not be held liable.

You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that PublishAmerica has the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time for any reason. As a user you agree to any information you have entered above being stored in a database. While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent the webmaster, administrator and moderators cannot be held responsible for any hacking attempt that could lead to the data being compromised.

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Posting on this message board indicates agreement to allow PublishAmerica to use the posted text for marketing or other purposes, at its discretion.

By clicking Register below you agree to be bound by these conditions.

[DaveKuzminski]

"You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws."

Hmmm, they left out libel which is applicable. Slander doesn't apply to written communication. Leaving yourselves some wiggle room, Willem, Larry, and Miranda?

[lastr]

Posting on this message board indicates agreement to allow PublishAmerica to use the posted text for marketing or other purposes, at its discretion. That "other purposes" leaves it wide open for anything.

[lastr]

the light is dawning (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5627.htm) Edited to remove names

Subject: Some Thoughts on the PA / NY Times Partnership


Message:
Ever since I got the most recent email regarding PA and the NY Times, I can't help thinking that maybe it isn't as great a thing as some of us had hoped. Not to say anything negative about either PA or the NY Times, but... to quote a passage in said email:

"At the initiative of the New York Times, we have secured a half page in the newspaper's world famous Book Review section, where PublishAmerica will announce its top ten bestselling books for the previous month.

For now, we plan to make this announcement every month, in the New York Times Book Review. We will re-evaluate this marketing strategy after three months. This is yet another absolutely free benefit of PublishAmerica."

---No doubt several of us PA authors will be rushing to put in orders for large quantities of our own book in order to increase our likelihood of securing a place among the top ten. I believe this creates an unfair disadvantage for those of us who cannot even afford to buy more than two or three copies of our own book (myself included, being on disability), but it IS nice that PA allows this to count toward the top ten listing.
Having published a poetry book with PA, my main concern is, of course, poetry books. I don't hold out much hope of seeing ANY poetry books on the bestseller list. Poetry has never been very popular.
These are just minor qualms, but I guess finding a happy medium would be next to impossible.
I don't know if this is really the BEST marketing strategy, but as I have no suggestions to better it, I guess I shouldn't complain. Whatever happens, may the best books win!


8/25/2004
02:59:48


RE: Some Thoughts on the PA / NY Times Partnership


Message:



We actually generated discussion about this very subject on a network we moderate at Ryze. We won't hijack your post by inserting ours, but we would like to comment.

We all know that there are authors out there who will buy boxes of their own book--whether they can really afford it or not--to make this list. There is nothing to be done about that.

However, we--cannot conceive of that tactic working for long. The next couple of months may see HUGE sales for particular authors who place these big orders, but when the excitement of that wears off and they are stuck with umpteen copies of their own book, then the list should be more reflective of actual consumer sales.

In the meantime, we intend to market the hell out of our own novel and take our actual sales numbers for what they are.

Just our sometimes-not-so-humble opinions! ;)


8/25/2004
04:03:27


RE: Some Thoughts on the PA / NY Times Partnership


Message:
Ditto,
I agree, no one can keep that up for long. And if a person really is moving books quickly, legitimately, not many people can afford to buy THAT many books themselves. So I wouldn't worry too much about it.


8/25/2004
04:16:00
RE: Some Thoughts on the PA / NY Times Partnership


Message:
I would never consider buying anymore than I need for promotional purposes. Very defeative action.

Good advise from XXXXXXXXX.


8/25/2004
07:47:34
RE: Some Thoughts on the PA / NY Times Partnership


Message:
there will alwasy be authors, at PA and all publishers, who will try and get their name known or on one week's best seller list by taking out a loan or having friends run and buy large quantities of their books to make the numbers look good. But everyone in the publishing business KNOWS that happens. I'm sure Bill Clinton had tons of his policical friends buy his book in exchange for helping their current or future campaigns. If I won the lotto, I'd probably buy my book myself! Hopefully PA will continue to do things for its authors that make it easier to get them into bookstores and sell the traditional way. Like take returns, for starters. PA shnould know that authors would usually be willing to buy any returns of their books (at the production cost) so I don't know why they aren't making it easier for us by accepting returns. As grateful as I am to have them accept my first 2 poetry books, and I plan to shortly submit my third, there are things they can do to help authors and themselves even more. The number one thing being: take returns and re-sell them to the author at PA's cost.

[James D Macdonald]

The number one thing being: take returns and re-sell them to the author at PA's cost.


No, no, no. Take returns and resell them to other bookstores. That's the way this game is played.

Authors don't buy their own books.

Authors aren't supposed to be salespersons either. Authors are supposed to be writing -- that's what they're good at. The salespeople are supposed to be selling. That's what they're good at.

That's part of what makes that PA's <a href="http://www.authorsmarket.net/writersales.htm" target="_new">authorsmarket.net</a> twaddle so damaging: Some newbies might believe that twaddle.

[ncq13]

<.snip> from the author's market .net... A second caveat is that science-fiction and fantasy writers have it easier. It's unfair, but such is life. As a rule of thumb, the quality bar for sci-fi and fantasy is a lot lower than for all other fiction.</snip>
OUCH! Does this statement bother anyone else? Each sub-genre has its own nuances of style, its own flavor. Difference in style does not equal difference in standards. I irritates me when one group attempts to belittle another in order to further their own personal objectives.
</rant>
~Kate

[FM St George]

the sad thing is that when they DON'T see an increase in sales after this NYT ad comes out then they'll be sitting there with boxes of books in their living room wondering what they did wrong... instead of putting the blame on PA and their lying ways...

:P

[DaveKuzminski]

Of course, there's always the possibility that PA is trying this in an attempt to force bookstores in NY to order their books despite the no returns policy by creating a demand for their books. If enough customers ask for certain books, the stores might decide to take a risk on those thus giving PA a victory in one small skirmish.

However, I believe that their tactic is limited. They simply can't afford to spend that much in each significant market in order to cover the entire country.

As well, I'm interested in learning whether these ads are prepaid or payable after publication. If those ads are not prepaid and sales fail to materialize to cover the costs, the ad campaign could be the fatal straw.

[James D Macdonald]

Difference in style does not equal difference in standards.

That authorsmarket.net page has nothing to do with science fiction (other than their revealing woeful ignorance of the field).

It has to do with slamming Ann, Victoria, Dave, and me.

Well, tell you what -- don't believe the part of me that writes science fiction and fantasy. Believe the part of me that writes non-fiction, horror, and technothrillers, okay?

What PA is trying to do, trying to separate new writers from support mechanisms, is like what an abusive husband tries to do to his wife by tearing the phone out of the wall.

The science fiction community is very supportive of new and would-be writers. SF writers are close to their fans. That's what PublishAmerica is afraid of.

Oh -- and if someone knows what they're talking about concerning publishing, it doesn't matter if they've ever published a story in their lives. It's the quality of the information that counts.

[KW]

There was a paragraph on that website that got me thinking.

"If advertising would launch a bestseller, they would spend the money in a heartbeat. Imagine, if it were only that simple, who would not happily spend a few thousand dollars on ads if it would bring hundreds of thousands in return?"

I could be wrong, but isn't this what PA is doing with the NYT ad?

Something else that makes me wonder.

"First books are rarely bought because the story catches on. They are bought because there is something about the author that fascinates the buyer."

How does this explain authors like Bentley Little who are very reclusive and hardly ever give interviews or let the world see him? Plus, what was so special about Stephen King? He didn't stand out, he was just an English teacher. His book stood out, not him. What about J.K. Rowling? What was so special about her? She was a single mother, that's it. Her book stood out, not her.

And this statement, which they say over and over, really made me laugh.

"Stop being a writer, and become a salesman."

Are they telling you stop writing and become a salesman? Now why would they do this? They want you to push the book you have out and make them money. If we spend all of our time trying to promote our book we will not have time to write another, but they don't care do they?

"Almost 18 percent of all books are sold through book clubs,"

Well, if they know this then why didn't they pick up the idea that I, and other PA authors, sent them. We had everything worked out for them already. A book club, even one just for PA authors and their family and friends, would make PA a lot of money.

" Author Stephen King pioneered the technology by selfpublishing his "Riding the Bullet"in e-format a few years ago, and sold a few hundred thousand copies, but this has remained an isolated incident, and not a very indicative one. After all, there is only one Stephen King and, moreover, the "book" counted no more than 66 pages. The average fiction book counts 225 pages."

I guess they forgot his "The Plant" which was also an ebook. Though not finished, it is a bit longer than 66 pages. They aren't one to tell the whole truth though are they?

"Even the staunchest tree huggers who want to write a book, for example about protecting the environment, would prefer to see it in print."

Tree huggers? Not very PC of them.

" Do they actually sell? No, they don't, not by the thousands, and generally not even by the hundreds. People don't like reading e-books the same way they like reading printed books," "Trade paperbacks have replaced the vast majority of first hardcover editions, and e-book releases are now replacing what used to be the cheap paperback edition."

Well, they say ebooks don't sell, but then turn around and say that ebooks are replacing cheap paperback editions. If ebooks didn't sell then why would they be replacing paperback editions? Do they sell or not? As for trade paperbacks replacing hardcover? I don't think so. You still see a lot more hardcover books than you do trade. Most new authors start out as mass market and if the author catches on their next book will be made available in hardback.

"Some writers have built a name for themselves by writing spin-offs of hugely popular movies, such as Star Trek, after all the characters and story parameters had been handed to them on a silver plate by the story owners who licensed the merchandising rights to a publisher. It requires some talent, but not too much, to write such a book."

This is basically a slap in the face, not only to Crispin but to Friedman, Mack, Ward, Shatner, Greenburg, Krauss and Golden and any other Trek writer out there. But I guess these people are not good writers, just because PA says so.:rollin

"There are some others who, particularly in the field of Fantasy, rewrite all but everything under the sun that has already been written before. They rummage through books on mythology, steal a character here, borrow a plot line there, throw in a wizard from King Arthur, and literally loot all the mythologies ever written."

Isn't there a saying in the literary world that goes something like this--'every story has already been told, there is just variations of those.'

"In the book industry, being published as an e-book writer amounts to not being published at all."

In the book industry, being published by PA is not being published at all.

"It happens, and alarmingly it happens more and more. Generally not to POD books, though. When books come apart, it is usually an offset product. Not only that, it is usually a book from a major publishing house, such as Warner, HarperCollins, TOR, Simon&Schuster, Little Brown, St. Martin's, and the blacklist also includes the entire Harry Potter series by Scholastic."

This leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I have only had two books fall apart on me. One was used and about 10 years old, the other had pictures in the front of the book and one of them fell out. Besides those two, this has never been a problem for me. I have heard of PA authors getting an order of books that were falling apart, so this goes to show that it isn't just a problem for print run books. Doesn't the publishers mentioned refund your money or give you another book if this happens? Will PA do that?

A few people had told me to be careful about the fake mss I sent to PA. Saying they could sue me for making them lose money by keeping authors away from them. Well, this statement, from Authorsmarket could be used against them by the so called big publishers.

"There is a variety of options for you. First of all, check out one of those publishers listings. Your local library carries them. Focus on finding very small publishers only."

Here they are telling authors to only submit to small publishers and not the big ones. This could keep people away from the big boys and cause them to lose money, so the big publishers should sue them for making them lose money.

Kevin

[ncq13]

"Do they actually sell? No, they don't, not by the thousands"

Actually, Ellora's Cave (e-book erotica) is now an RWA accepted publisher, meaning it has sold substantial amounts of single title works. PA has not yet accomplished this in the romance market. While Ellora's Cave is only ONE out of many e-book publishers, I think that their success demands mention here.

Additionally, Uncle Jim, thank you for shedding some light on the SF/F issue.

~Kate

[XThe NavigatorX]

there seems to be another mini-revolution brewing on the PA boards this morning. Stacee is asking for it. I suspect she may find that her password has stopped working soon.

Hey PA spies! Here are the ones you need to remove:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...l/1553.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/1553.htm)

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5633.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5633.htm)

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10716.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10716.htm)

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10706.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10706.htm)

[XThe NavigatorX]

I had read somewhere that Ellora's Cave's bestselling author pulls in 20K+ a quarter in royalties. If I could write chick e-porn, I'd be all over that.

[CaoPaux]

From the second thread:

"Speaking of the no-return policy, I happened to be in a Waldens recently, and a new author walked in with her just-released book. She said the publisher is new, and is an independant one, but during the conversation, it came out that it was not a print-on-demand and that the publisher offers returns. The manager looked up the ISBN, and the woman and manager began discussing stocking the book, AND scheduling a signing. Something to envy, huh?
The whole time I'm thinking that the "NEW AUTHOR" thing might be a detriment. It wasn't. It appears that book merchants are open to new work, even small publishers, but the key is good discounts and returnability."

--------
*resists inserting 48-point, flashing purple "d'oh"*

[James D Macdonald]

Well, two out of four are gone already. Bet Stacee's password has stopped working.

Hi, Stacee -- when you find your way over here, welcome.

[AnneMarble]

<.snip> from the author's market .net... A second caveat is that science-fiction and fantasy writers have it easier. It's unfair, but such is life. As a rule of thumb, the quality bar for sci-fi and fantasy is a lot lower than for all other fiction.</snip>
OUCH! Does this statement bother anyone else? Each sub-genre has its own nuances of style, its own flavor. Difference in style does not equal difference in standards. I irritates me when one group attempts to belittle another in order to further their own personal objectives.


What this translates to is:
James D. Macdonald, Victoria Strauss, Ann Crispin, Brenda Clough, Dave, and many of the other pros who warn writers about scams are science fiction and/or fantasy writers.

Ergo PA hopes that newbies will read that passage (and that other hideous page on that site about SF and fantasy writers) and believe that if the information comes from an SF or fantasy writer, it must be wrong. (And I'm sure some people really do believe that !@#$ and think that SF/fantasy writers have it easy, are protecting their field, etc. Which of course makes no sense and even contradicts much of the "info" on that site.)

One hopes aspiring SF and fantasy writers read that page and instead go :bang or at least :gone avoid PA. I remember that when that site first went up, someone on PA's boards gave it a glowing review, and at least one of PublishAmerica's SF and fantasy writers read that site and was just a ... bit... offended.

[AnneMarble]

I guess they forgot his "The Plant" which was also an ebook. Though not finished, it is a bit longer than 66 pages. They aren't one to tell the whole truth though are they?

Heck, I guess they forgot about Project Gutenberg. Also, there were several indie e-book publishers in existence before Stephen King put out "The Plant." But they will never let the facts get in the way of a good carp.

"It happens, and alarmingly it happens more and more. Generally not to POD books, though. When books come apart, it is usually an offset product. Not only that, it is usually a book from a major publishing house, such as Warner, HarperCollins, TOR, Simon&Schuster, Little Brown, St. Martin's, and the blacklist also includes the entire Harry Potter series by Scholastic."

This leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

Well of course books that come apart are usually offset products. That's because most books are printed on offset presses. :shrug And the Harry Potter books? They come apart because kids read them over and over again. But they are durable to begin with. How do I know? I had a copy of a hardback Harry Potter book in my car when a gallon of bleach decided to leak. :eek The Harry Potter book looked horrible -- but the pages still held together, even after bleach damage. It was in better shape than the carpet thingie in my car.

"There are some others who, particularly in the field of Fantasy, rewrite all but everything under the sun that has already been written before. They rummage through books on mythology, steal a character here, borrow a plot line there, throw in a wizard from King Arthur, and literally loot all the mythologies ever written."

Isn't there a saying in the literary world that goes something like this--'every story has already been told, there is just variations of those.'

And there are only three basic plots (unless you're Georges Polti (sp!), in which case there are thirty-eight), etc.

IIRC the part about fantasy authors "looting" mythology was a dig at Victoria Strauss. The moderator of this board. :hail

They're also being hypocritical here. They praise Tolkien, who borrowed from mythology. Yet they criticize Victoria Strauss, who borrows from mythology. Hellooo? I suppose if Tolkien were still alive and had an anti-PA site, they would carp on him, too. :rofl

[Savannah Blue]

It's just a little after 1 pm and two of the 4 threads above are already gone. |I There's a new one though: Publish America - Author Message Board

I wasn't around when most of you made your escape from PA and I was wondering if you could tell me something. It looks, on the messages board at least, like there is a rebelion in the works by some of the new people. When you regulars here left, was it the same way then? Were you as vocal on the message boards?

I was also wondering if PA is finding themselves in a quandry now. Forums such as this one and Mindsight are much easier to find now than they were even 3 or 4 months ago when I started looking into PA. So, what will PA do? Ban all of these new guys and run them into the waiting arms of boards like this one, or try to work it out with them? There's no doubt in my mind that the anit-PA movement is growing stronger by the day. It looks to me like there isn't going to be time for any type of retaliation by the 'disgruntled' authors, PA is going to run itself into the ground, and soon.

**Please know I use the term 'disgruntled' very much tounge in cheek!**

SB

[Savannah Blue]

Oooppps! Sorry. :o

[DaveKuzminski]

It almost seems as if a new forum starts up for every ten authors that PA bans.

[SRHowen]

I had read somewhere that Ellora's Cave's bestselling author pulls in 20K+ a quarter in royalties. If I could write chick e-porn, I'd be all over that.

I can write that stuff, but I'd like to see numbers suporting that -- any idea where you saw that?

Shawn

[lindylou45]

I have been trying to get in touch with Lee Foster with Lightning Source so I could find out how many of my books have been printed. When I finally got her on the phone today she indicated that she had contacted PA and they told her she was not to give out ANY information to ANY PA AUTHOR! The author is to be referred to PA. :head

Now, the last correspondence I had with PA, I was told that any future correspondence from me would be discarded unread. So, if I contact PA regarding how many books have been printed and they lie about everything else, what are my chances that they are going to tell me the truth about this? If they even bother to read the correspondence that is. I wish I had never heard of this piece of crap publisher! >: :bang

I hope they are enjoying their little games, because the rules are about to change!

[staceeminer]

oh yeah, they banned me pretty quick! Pretty cowardly I thought....it was a valid discussion.
Stacee

[FM St George]

*waves*

hi, there! Welcome!

glad you found us...

*wink, wink*

:)

[XThe NavigatorX]

SR -

Sure. Lemmee see what I can dig up. I doubt I can find the original article since it was about 9 months ago.

<search>

K, can't find the article, but I remember it very clearly. I would never have remembered the name Ellora's Cave otherwise. I did find this article, however:

www.weeklyplanet.com/2004...cover.html (http://www.weeklyplanet.com/2004-07-01/cover.html)

Ellora's Cave currently publishes print-on-demand books and recently closed a deal with Waldenbooks and Borders to carry books in all their stores across the nation. However, the company intends to remain largely an e-book publisher. "We have over 100 authors, and we pay them well," says Patty. Ellora's Cave pays 37.5 percent of the cover price on e-books that sell for $2.95 to $9.99 and print books priced from $8.99 to $15.99 each. "Some sell 1,000 copies the first week." Last year, Ellora's Cave paid authors almost half a million dollars in royalties. Some authors now make enough money to quit their jobs and live on their writing. "Some write one or two books a year," says Patty; "some write one or two a month."

[XThe NavigatorX]

lol. Hi Stacee. How'd you find this place so quick?

[Sher2]

<oh yeah, they banned me pretty quick! Pretty cowardly I thought....>

Oh, shoot, banned before you even get to see what witch's brew they're cooking up on the private board. I'm with St. George, Stacee -- glad you found this place. Check your in-box for private messages through this board -- I'm sending you something.

[Savannah Blue]

Hi Stacee.
Welcome. Glad you found us. This is a really good, informative group here.
SB

[Sher2]

<I have been trying to get in touch with Lee Foster with Lightning Source so I could find out how many of my books have been printed. When I finally got her on the phone today she indicated that she had contacted PA and they told her she was not to give out ANY information to ANY PA AUTHOR! The author is to be referred to PA.>


This doesn't surprise me, Lindy, but it purely sucks. PA must have been losing "49-copies" sales lately and decided to head it off at the pass. I don't know about the legality of such a stance. It seems to me that the literary property is as much yours as it is theirs and you have a right to be informed. Any lawyers in the house?

[XThe NavigatorX]

If you own the copyright, then you have the right to query Lightning Source about how many copies they've printed off. The problem is Lightning Source is the customer of PA, and they'll do whatever PA says. You shouldn't have any troubles getting a court-ordered look at their records.

[Risseybug]

I believe, if LS is a public company, and they may not be, that according to the Freedom of Information act, you have the right to look at stuff like that. It doesn't fall under the trade secret laws.

But I could be wrong, I often am.

[AnneMarble]

oh yeah, they banned me pretty quick! Pretty cowardly I thought....it was a valid discussion.

It is a valid discussion. I guess that's why they pulled two of the threads and banned you so quickly. :(

Welcome to this board, and I wish the circumstances were better for you.

P.S. Don't let the turkeys get you down. :bang

[ncq13]

I'm counting my days... I haven't been banned I just get jumped all over from time to time...
You did ask some pertinent questions, and were very PC Stace, I applaud you for your professionalism.

~Kate
katestamour.com (http://katestamour.com)

[KW]

"When I finally got her on the phone today she indicated that she had contacted PA and they told her she was not to give out ANY information to ANY PA AUTHOR! The author is to be referred to PA."

Doesn't this sound a bit shady to them? We are the authors, we own the copyright and so should be privy to that kind of information. If PA says not to give the author that kind of information, and they are not paying royalties (not saying they are doing that though) and LS doesn't give the author the information can't they be considered an accessory after the fact? They knowingly didn't give out information that could show, if there is any, a crime has taken place.

Kevin

[DeePower]

It doesn't matter that the discussion on the PA board was valid.It s pulled because you and a few others were lamenting the no return policy and how that policy, along with a few other factors make it nearly impossible for bookstores to order PA books for their shelves.

PublishAmerica has to hide behind their smoke and mirrors game of distracting their authors, and more importantly potential new authors, that PA books are simply not stocked by bookstores. Any post that shows even a glimmer of truth of the real PA business model (ie. they want to sell books to the authors not to anybody else) has to be deleted.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[Sher2]

<PublishAmerica has to hide behind their smoke and mirrors game of distracting their authors, and more importantly potential new authors, that PA books are simply not stocked by bookstores. Any post that shows even a glimmer of truth of the real PA business model (ie. they want to sell books to the authors not to anybody else) has to be deleted. >


That's exactly it. They can't deal with anyone threatening to upset their apple cart, i.e., business model of bulk sales to authors. Anyone who gloms onto the truth is quickly banned. It's like PravdA.

[KW]

It seems that ebooks do sell. Ellora's Cave is doing really well. This from one of their interviews.

"That's one reason I so enjoyed hearing that Tina Engler now pays more in income tax every year than she collected the entire time she was on welfare. Her company grossed $1.2-million last year and is expected to easily double that figure this year. She has become quite famous in her field, and she employs dozens of people who also pay taxes on what they earn from her."

They made 1.2 million last year and are expected to double it this year. That sounds good to me. But PA says, on their authorsmarket site, that ebooks don't sell so since they say it then it must be true. These people must be mistaken right? :ha

Kevin

[AnneMarble]

They made 1.2 million last year and are expected to double it this year. That sounds good to me. But PA says, on their authorsmarket site, that ebooks don't sell so since they say it then it must be true. These people must be mistaken right?

:rofl If ebooks don't sell, how come, when I bought my Palm M125, I paid more than $60 for a 64 megabyte SD card to store all those ebooks? Eight megabytes wasn't enough for me. I have accounts at Fictionwise.com, eReader.com, and yes, romantica publishers such as Ellora's Cave. :grin And the people at many of the ebook distributors know me by name.

My storage card recently showed signs of data corruption. Do you think all the naughty ebooks corrupted it ;)

[staceeminer]

Interesting, it really is. Nothing was PA bashing at all, just the subject matter seemed to be off limits...then they pulled the thread which I found appalling.
I have not heard back from them yet!

[Sher2]

<Nothing was PA bashing at all, just the subject matter seemed to be off limits...then they pulled the thread which I found appalling.>


Yeah, subjects are becoming off limits with increasing (and alarming) frequency. Makes you wonder what they're so scared of. I mean, anybody doing things above-board has nothing to fear. Right?

[Savannah Blue]

<I have not heard back from them yet! >

You aren't going to either. Not until you get the infamous 'Don't take that tone with us' letter. Sad that they feel the need to use such abuse with their authors.

SB

[DaveKuzminski]

lindylou45, send Ligntning Source a copy of the correspondence from PA informing you that they would discard correspondence from you. Then Lightning Source might rethink their willingness to cooperate with you, especially if you let them know that you are contemplating legal action against PA and anyone assisting them in concealing information you have a right to know as the author.

[Molly Brent]

I was also told that I could not be given any information on how many books had been printed or sold after the termination of my contract.....the e mail was from Ingram, not Lightning Source, but did include them in the reply as not being allowed to respond because of my dispute with PA..........

One person e mailed me that she sent an e mail to Lightning Souce and received her reply from PA.

Molly Brent

[PixelFish]

"First books are rarely bought because the story catches on. They are bought because there is something about the author that fascinates the buyer."


Oh, yeah, that statement bugged me. That...and the sentence before it about the author having to stand out. If people would just think about this a little--they go into Barnes and Noble or the little shoppe around the corner, and they do what? They see an author standing out and rush to the counter to buy the author's book? Or they browse the shelves, thumb the pages, check out the blurbs on the back cover, look for that book that they saw reviewed in their local paper or that other book that Betty Sue recommended to them the other day?

Me, I do the latter. I've only ever twice bought books because the author was Right There, standing out. (Once was at a teen writers conference in junior high--I dragged my mom to the bookstore immediately after talking to a Real Live Writer--and the other was after listening to another author talk at a library.) Two books. Two books in all these years. The rest I found at the library--my number one introduction to books--or on my parent's shelves (second only to the library because my parents had less books than the library and eventually the numbers were bound to catch up) or by the recommendations of friends or because people in the industry had recommended X book or by browsing in the bookstore. But so very rarely because the author was standing right there, standing out.

(BTW, Uncle Jim can prolly tell me if this is true--but is it true that libraries, like brick-and-mortar bookstores are also loath to acquire vanity published and POD books? If so, then there's another huge audience down the drain for the PA people.)

[James D Macdonald]

First books are rarely bought because the story catches on. They are bought because there is something about the author that fascinates the buyer.

That's a total lie.

On other notes, hi again, Stacee. You have some reading ahead of you ... this thread contains some very good stuff on PA, as do a couple of other threads here in the Bewares board.

As far as Lightning giving you numbers -- Lightning has a contract with PA, they don't have a contract with you. A subpoena will get the numbers; I doubt anything else will. Go get a lawyer.

And Stacee again -- yes, it was a good, valid discussion, and not at all disrespectful to PublishAmerica. But PublishAmerica couldn't let it stand because it reveals a truth that they don't want their potential customers to hear: That their books won't get into doors-and-windows bookstores.

If authors knew that, they wouldn't go with Publish America, would they? No. Therefore it's vital that they conceal that fact. The words "fraudulent inducement" and "deception by omission" should be on your lips when you lawyer up.

From the speed that Publish America pulls posts mentioning the problems with getting books into stores, they have to be conscious of what they're doing, and why.

Meanwhile -- if you have the private email addresses of any PA authors, let them know what happened: That you were banned for asking a simple question.

[Sher2]

<From the speed that Publish America pulls posts mentioning the problems with getting books into stores, they have to be conscious of what they're doing, and why.

Meanwhile -- if you have the private email addresses of any PA authors, let them know what happened: That you were banned for asking a simple question.>


I think they're extremely conscious of every move they make. They're not going to take any "sass" and if they have to hire additional temps to keep the boards "clean" and the rebellion quelled, it's just taking care of business. Their business.

Oh, and about those boards -- I've now seen the private board and any possible reason for the top secrecy behind it is beyond me. It's about as sophisticated as high school study hall.

One more "Oh" -- what was PA's estimate of the percentage of dissatisfied authors again? I'm in a private group of "disgruntleds" with 13 members and 3 pending, and I have no doubt whatsoever that this is just the tip of the iceberg.

[DaveKuzminski]

Sher2, P&E is keeping a running score at URL www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pebp.htm (http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pebp.htm) and has documentation to back up every single number. There are a lot more disgruntleds than 13.

[Sher2]

<P&E is keeping a running score at URL www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pebp.htm and has documentation to back up every single number. There are a lot more disgruntleds than 13.

Thanks, Dave. I hadn't checked the P&E stats lately but I knew it was a heck of a lot more than 13.>

[lindylou45]

If PA says not to give the author that kind of information, and they are not paying royalties (not saying they are doing that though)


Have you received any royalties this month? I haven't and I know I sold a few books. I'm hoping I didn't sell very many though, I don't want them to profit off my family and friends.

[lindylou45]

send Ligntning Source a copy of the correspondence from PA informing you that they would discard correspondence from you.

Will do, Dave. I'll keep you informed as to what happens.

[SRHowen]

on Elora's Cave. I already have ordered a book from them and have an idea for what I want to write. Under a pen name--LOL

I also have a friend who writes erotica (has sold many short stories to major print mags) who might be interested.

Seems, if you write what they want, that it could be a good source of income while you write what you really want to. guess I'll have to start hanging out on the erotica thread.

Shawn

[Teena Haywood]

Welcome, Stacee.

[James D Macdonald]

...if you write what they want, that it could be a good source of income while you write what you really want to.

That's why a bunch of Writers You've Heard Of write movie novelizations, or whatever. It pays the bills while you work on your own stuff.

[James D Macdonald]

(BTW, Uncle Jim can prolly tell me if this is true--but is it true that libraries, like brick-and-mortar bookstores are also loath to acquire vanity published and POD books? If so, then there's another huge audience down the drain for the PA people.)

Yes, it's true.

You'll find that unless a book has been cataloged by the Library of Congress, and reviewed in a major venue (Library Journal, Kirkus, Booklist) that libraries either won't or can't purchase it.

We've heard reports of libraries refusing to take PublishAmerica books as a gift.

[astonwest]

"Have you received any royalties this month? I haven't and I know I sold a few books. I'm hoping I didn't sell very many though, I don't want them to profit off my family and friends."

Although they state they pay royalties in August and February (I believe), the checks usually don't get to the authors until the first week in the following month (wait until the last minute, keep the money as long as possible)...used to work for a company who did a similar-type thing, until they couldn't pay the health insurance on time, then I left...

Big Daddy West
:hat

[ncq13]

Stacee, a couple of threads that you commented on regarding book placement and the no return policy are still up:
www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10706.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10706.htm)
www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5633.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5633.htm)

~Kate
katestamour.com (http://katestamour.com)

[NancyMehl]

Oh, my. I see that some PA authors really believe that PA will change its policies if enough of them push for it.

Sigh. Been there, done that.

Forget it.

Nancy

www.nancymehlbooks.com

[DeePower]

It's a fact. Our local library gratefully accepted gift copies of our two books published by John Wiley & sons. And then refused to accept a gift copy of our PA published book. I was told I would have to go to central purchasing in the main library for permission. I made it clear that the book was a gift, I wasn't asking them to buy it. I also told them they had copies of our previous books. Still the answer was no.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[keltora]

Concerning libraries...

I am a librarian (Yes, I have a soft spot for that line from "The Mummy"), and I am the person they turn to when collection development needs advise about small press, vanity, etc.

We get a lot of PA books. For some reason, there are a lot of people in this area who think PA is the perfect solution (though I have tried to educate them) to their publishing needs, and they don't seem to understand why we turn their books down. There is one local author in particular who has taught classes and tells people that PA is the best place to get published, and the local writer's guild buys into this dog and pony show because most of them are writing stuff too local to get published mainstream.

This, of course, is why I do not belong to the local writer's guild. As a fellow writer and I both noted, they want to talk about being writers, but they don't really want do the work required, and so they are always looking for shortcuts to publication.

There are no shortcuts.

Our main reason, of course, is that we look to add books to our collection that have some permanent value (as permanent as you can get, considering that you do have to weed a collection from time to time). To this end, when we get a vanity, self-published or PA book, we mainly look to see whether or not we think it will be an asset to the collection. Of the thirty or so PA books I have had thrown in my direction in the last year, I have advised collection development to accept one, and only because the author was local and had actually written a mystery novel with a local historical setting, and had clearly done her research. However, because the writing in the book was not exactly--up to standard, we decided that instead of adding it as a circulating book, we would put it in the archive section as "work by local author with historical value."

From my own point of view, having worked so hard to sell my last six books the old-fashioned way, I am not terribly fond of anyone publishers who assume there is one born every minute that they can fleece.

And yes, my own small press books are in the library collection here (and elsewhere, I have learned), but not because I work here. My writing career has had to be kept separate from my work as a librarian (the former director here was much opposed to me drawing any sort of attention to my writing even on my own time, and used to actually threaten me if I told anyone I was an author--problem was, I kept telling the papers, and they kept writing about me :) ).

I just happen to be published by a press that takes returns...

My two cents...for what it's worth.

[keltora]

***From my own point of view, having worked so hard to sell my last six books the old-fashioned way, I am not terribly fond of anyone publishers who assume there is one born every minute that they can fleece.***

Let me rephrase that. What I meant to say (and I should edit before I post, I know;) ) was that having worked so hard to sell my last six books, I am not terribly fond of anyone who seeks the shortcuts, and I am certainly no supporter of publisher who assume there is one born every minute that they can fleece...

:coffee Need more caffeine...

[arainsb123]

"You'll find that unless a book has been cataloged by the Library of Congress, and reviewed in a major venue (Library Journal, Kirkus, Booklist) that libraries either won't or can't purchase it."

I emailed my county's library Web site and they purchased 10 copies of both of my iUniverse books to disseminate through the libraries. Needless to say, my books aren't in the LOC or reviewed by any major venue.

[keltora]

I would be tempted to ask if your book with iUniverse had a local setting? And the size of the library system.

:coffee

[KW]

I can't figure this out. Anybody know? If I go buy what they say then they make $1 per book. I tried to figure this out using what they say.

1,000,000 (books)/ 4 (years) = $250,000

250,000/ 15 (guess at how many employee's) = $16,666 for four years.

16,666/ 15 = $1,111 per year

Does this seem right to you guys? Did I make a mistake again Jim? Is PA lying about how much they make or are they not paying their employee's minimum wage?

Then again I could be wrong.

Kevin

[KW]

I just proved myself wrong. Ignore the last post.

$1 x 1,000,000 = 1 million dollars is what they made in four years. But I think one dollar is a bit on the low side of what they make from each book.

Kevin

[lindylou45]

$1 x 1,000,000 = 1 million dollars is what they made in four years. But I think one dollar is a bit on the low side of what they make from each book.

The authors get around $1.00 a book - They (PA) get over $9.00 a book.

Now do your math - I think you'll find it's quite a bit different.

[arainsb123]

The books didn't relate to my county, or even state, at all. There are about 15 libraries in my county.

[arainsb123]

Wow. No responses in an entire day. Could it be that the PA thread is finally dying?

Impossible! We have to reach 100 pages first :-).

[DaveKuzminski]

Nope. Just means that PA is busier than before trying to monitor an extra board to find writers to ban. Once they ban another, we'll be busy again welcoming the writer and sharing information.

[KW]

They told us that they only get a dollar profit from each book sold. The rest they say they use to pay the staff, printers, etc.

Kevin

[lindylou45]

They told us that they only get a dollar profit from each book sold. The rest they say they use to pay the staff, printers, etc.

With all the other lies they've told, I'm not sure I'd believe that one. :shrug

[DaveKuzminski]

Staff must be Willem, Larry, and Miranda.

[KW]

I emailed LS about the number of books they have printed of mine and they said I could only get that info from PA. Guess the only way any of us will find out the numbers is to go through legal channels.

Kevin

[lindylou45]

I emailed LS about the number of books they have printed of mine and they said I could only get that info from PA

I got a nasty email from PA telling me not to contact LS or any other distributor because they provide that information twice a year.

August is almost over and I've heard nothing. My contract doesn't say the first week in September, it says August. They have three days.

[DaveKuzminski]

If LS isn't willing to share that information, then share what PA gives you with LS and ask them to verify the numbers. Otherwise, it looks like the only other recourse would be to go after PA and include LS in the suit.

[Sher2]

<August is almost over and I've heard nothing. My contract doesn't say the first week in September, it says August. They have three days.>


I'll bet you anything that they don't mail those checks out 'til the 31st. If they don't and authors don't have checks in hand by the end of the first week in September, then everybody needs to start screaming bloody murder.

[Risseybug]

read THIS thread. Sounds like her brother caught on quick, but this poor deluded child is stuck with PA.

They published TWO books by this 15 year old?? Not that people that age can't write anything worthwhile, but I assume her parents had to sign the contract. I guess they didnt't read it! I am just shaking my head in disbelief.

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5638.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5638.htm)

[Sher2]

<read THIS thread. Sounds like her brother caught on quick, but this poor deluded child is stuck with PA.

They published TWO books by this 15 year old?? Not that people that age can't write anything worthwhile, but I assume her parents had to sign the contract. I guess they didnt't read it! I am just shaking my head in disbelief.>


That's astonishing, Risseybug. I'm familiar with the 15-year-old "Horselover" from reading the PA boards and have wondered all along about it. I, too, wondered what life experience a 15-year-old could have to base writing not one, but two, novels on. There are, of course, young prodigies, which may explain it. And I assume that her parents would have had to sign the contract. (Although you never assume anything with PA.) I was struck by the fact that this child (if she is, in fact, a child) writes with a higher degree of literacy and reason than many of those she replies to.

[Ed Williams 3]

...our good friend Mr. Marcus' web site has been down for a couple of days. May mean nothing, then again, may mean something. Check it out:

www.hbmarcus.com

:shrug

[DaveKuzminski]

Almost makes one wonder whether it has anything to do with a recent posting by HB that PA suggested he take his writing elsewhere, but he declined. Sounds like some politics going on over there in the background.

[lindylou45]

I love Randy. He's so confrontational and doesn't give a flying fig what anyone at PA thinks. He's hilarious! :ha

[FM St George]

Dave, can you elaborate further? I didn't see that one and I suspect it's probably gone by now...

HB was bragging about his third book being released in October, so...

???

[XThe NavigatorX]

FM, turn on your EZboard private messenger thing. How are we going to tell you juicy secret things if we can't contact you secretly?

[DaveKuzminski]

I looked to find that so I could give the topic number, but I couldn't relocate it. Quite possible that the thread was yanked.

[Sher2]

<How are we going to tell you juicy secret things if we can't contact you secretly?>

I like juicy secrets, too. Hint, hint!

[FM St George]

I have no shame - xfdragon@zoominternet.net

and yes, I love spam.... eat it fried with eggs on bread, I do!


:D

heh, heh...

[staceeminer]

seems kinda boring over there now!!
Ask one damn good question and it's off with your head. I plan to sell the hell out of my book with no help from them and then never publish with them again,,.,,all I can did at this point.
Sad thing, it is a damn good book Southern Discomfort, buy it and see for yourselves. When it does fabulously and i AM ASKED WHY, i SHALL SAY inspite of the publisher's attempts to see that it failed...
come on everybody buy a copy when it's released and help me prove my point!!!

[ncq13]

Hang in there Stacee. I certainly feel your pain and have similar concerns. What I refuse to do though is waste all of my energy getting doors slammed in my face when I can just get my other projects in print elsewhere.

[Sher2]

<Re: I have laughed, I have cried, and now I am being called...

My book isn't even out and I'm starting to feel a little despondent. How on Earth will things improve if people don't take an honest look at where they are at and change their part in the system by saying no to reselling their own books?
How is it archaic and defeatist to want your book in bookstores? Hello! This is my Career!!! I didn't go through all of the time I spent writing and editing to sell books to my neighbors, and family! I'm not a girl scout!
I'm breathing deeply now and focusing on my next few projects...>


Ncq13, moving it over to this thread, I wanted to respond to your post. Somehow, many PA authors have become convinced that it's perfectly reasonable to buy crates of their own books and attempt to resell them. They've been told that this is the norm with all publishers and don't know enough about the industry to question it. They also believe that most books actually don't end up on bookstore shelves. One PA author even posited the opinion once that because PA books aren't sold in bookstores, ergo PA authors have to work harder, that makes them the cream of the crop and lucky to not be published by "The Big Five." The reality is that PA's business model calls for their authors to be their biggest customers. As far as I can tell, they have no desire to change that. The hype that has their authors jumping through hoops to buy up their own books has, after all, worked for them since 1999. In my opinion, PA should be viewed as a learning experience, a lesson that no serious writer would repeat. Anyone willing to be burned twice probably deserves it.

[DaveKuzminski]

More importantly, writers need to recognize and learn that PA is not a stepping stone to the big five nor is it a proving ground for writers to show that they can be authors.

[Ed Williams 3]

...having PA on your publishing resume is a hindrance, not a plus. In most cases, it's best not to mention it when you query legitimate publishers as most of them view PA as a vanity POD outfit, which is, of course, exactly what they are.

[lastr]

www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5688.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5688.htm) Where do they get fed all the bad information?

Message:
Perhaps someone more aquainted with the business/economics of PA may be able to answer this. How does PA recupe the cost of the production and printing of their books if they do not actively help to promote the books they produce? Isn't the only way that PA can actually make money is if its authors sell books? Now in my situation: (1) I do not have the funds to purchase copies to set up book signings locally. (2) Every major local bookstore either does not carry non-returnable books, or, will not carry a book by an unknown author unless said author furnishes his/her own copies (see #1). How does PA stand to gain profit from a slob in my situation? That is not to say I have not taken any steps towards promotion; brochures, web site, etc., but this falls far short of what is needed for a successful marketing campaign. That being said, has anyone tried literary grants to help finance the purchasing of copies? If so, I would appreciate any information on grants that you may have.


8/29/2004
07:32:09


RE: Somewhat Confused


Message:
Just as you get a royalty on every book sold so does PA. You take the cost of the book, deduct the cost of printing, deduct the royalty and what is left over is PA's.

A lot of authors do a great job of promoting their books but I am going to guess that most of us are no where near the 10,000 range that a traditionally publishing house, one that is not a POD, prints in order to pull in a profit. I have another post about this on the Original Message Board called "something I learned." But you may have heard that PA has printed more books this year than any other publisher so that's how they do it. Joyce Ann had a post about counting all the new releases each week and the number multiplied by 52 was phenominal. That way if I sell only 200, someone elses sells a couple thousand and so on and we come out to the same number of books another small house sells.

They put faith in the little guy to sell books and that's not something to shake a stick at. With the traditional method of printing only 1% of all books that are written get published. That means mostly celebrities and well established writers like Steven King. Kind of like a good old boys club with no room for anyone else. PA is trying to change that and they are making a big splash. That's why the NY Times is being so cozy with them.

Hope that helps,


8/29/2004
09:24:54
RE: Somewhat Confused


Message:
They probably break even at about 50 copies sold, which will most likely come from friends, family and the authors themselves. Once the initial costs for editing, artwork, plates etc. are covered, the rest is gravy until they sell the first batch, at which point they have to decide how many to print on the next run. Their business model doesn't have a budget for spending a lot of money on individual titles for promotion, but this also allows them to release many more titles than the big guys. It means we have to do a lot more work on our own, but it's a small price to pay for getting our books published. If they ever do radically change their approach, spending more of their profits promoting books, there will be far fewer people posting on these boards.

8/29/2004
09:59:20


RE: Somewhat Confused


Message:
Steve, how much do they print on the first run?

Mike, I'm in the same situation as you, not a lot of money to play with. I gave PA a full 100 names to send flyers to, so I hope that works. The no return policy, I don't know how to address when asked about it. Which is why I'm going to email support and see what they suggest my reply be.


8/29/2004
10:36:37


RE: Somewhat Confused


Message:
Mike ,

Many other author's posts are busy with myself on
this marketing topic ...
Go to " original author's message board " and check in particular these posts from Joan ,
" something I learned " , and " helping one another " by Sara Price .

Join the exchanges , by all means .






8/29/2004
11:36:18
RE: Somewhat Confused


Message:
I am in the same boat here....not enough funds to self-promote...i guess a little luck and of course some creative writing is really the key



8/29/2004
13:08:20
RE: Somewhat Confused


Message:
Keep in mind that I'm only speculating, as I have no direct info on their approach. That being said, I would not be surprised if their average first-run quantity was 500, since that seems to be a sales milestone for possible inclusion by Independance Books. Sales forecasting, regardless of the product sales history or fancy computer generated models, is voodoo at best. If unsold inventory rises to a certain level, they will institute a higher discount program. By the same token, when inventories are thin, no amount of begging will get you a better discount rate. The smart approach for authors would be to wait for the special rate, purchase enough books to get by until the next "special" is ran, and so on. Trying to figure out the formula for that will give you an idea of what PA deals with managing iventory of so many titles. Much harder than actually writing a book.

xxxxxx

[DeePower]

I wish someone would post a response on the PA board about the "only 1% of all books published are on bookshelves." There are a million books in print (more or less) according to Bowkers. The average Barnes and Noble carries 100,000 to 150,000 titles at any one time. That's about 1%. It is typical of PublishAmerica to twist that around to mean that only 1% of books published in a year are carried on bookshelves.

Of the 175,000 titles published in a year, half are not meant for bookstores. They're textbooks, technical manuals, corporate publications, medical books, very niche publications, those sorts of things.

Incidently the POD houses, Xlibris (200 titles per month), Authorshouse (500 titles) , iUniverse (400 titles) and PublishAmerica (300 titles per month) release about 16,800 titles per year, which is included in that 50% of books appropriate to a bookstore. Don't interpret that to mean the bookstores will stock POD books, they don't, but it's interesting to see that 16,800 divided by 85,000 is roughly 20%.

What a waste. 20% of the authors who are "published" every year don't have a chance of seeing any kind of success.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[Ed Williams 3]

...what's being posted on the "private" PA board. We need to send an intelligence operative in there and get the skinny....

:hat

[ncq13]

Ed, there isn't really anything intelligent being posted there. It is more for chatting and interacting. "What is your birthday," is the most exciting topic.

[DaveKuzminski]

That's true. Then again, PA doesn't know about the Cult of the Dead Cow and what they're capable of infiltrating. ;)

[Ed Williams 3]

Dear Mr.Williams,

I was forwarded your article about POD companies and do agree with you about many of the companies that you were refering to. I however would disagree with your lack of knowledge of Publish America. This company seems to have a higher standard for its
authors and does provide service above and beyond what other POD do provide. For instance They do provide each author with a website, e-mail address, space with Barnes and Noble and Amazon. I also
understand that Publish America is now advertizing top authors with the New York Times.

I would like to thank you for mentioning my book in your article. It goes to prove my point when I titled the book and created the graphic that people will judge a book by the cover and not read it. "Hate Keeps Me Warm" is a book of Poetry that reflects a life that only a select few will understand. Selling was never an issue with me and never will be. I just had poems that people liked and
someone wanted to print so I know you will enjoy my other two books that are due out soon "Hate Keeps Me Warm, Too" (Dec 04) and "How to Get Laid Under Forty Dollars!" (April 05).

So you know that silly little title of mine that the company scammed me into has sold over 8,000 copies since April 04 and I told everyone that this book was a piece of @#%$ I wrote in eight hours on a return trip to LA.

Again thank you for opening a new market I hope your book does way better than mine since life is about so much more than how many you sell and shameless advertising in a weekly column.

Respectfully,

Ty Swartz

The reply:

Dear Mr. Swartz,

No Publish America book has sold 8,000 copies, but your humour is admirable. Frankly, PA couldn't produce that many books in the first place, but you will learn all about that in due time. Most major PODs list their books with
the major online booksellers, which means little if anything - those listings are free, and self published authors list on those websites all the time.

The New York Times thing was admirable re PA - they will get many of their own authors to buy copies to count as sales so that they will get mentioned in the ad, and that ad will continue to run as long as all of y'all keep
buying your own books. And that's the whole point, PA's marketing strategy is designed to sell books to their own authors. It has to be, because you can't find PA books anywhere else. Just tell me one thing - name one PA title
that has been stocked nationally by any major bricks and mortar bookstore chain.

Just be glad you got mentioned in a column, as waiting on reviewers to do that for you will prove to be a long, fruitless wait.

Good luck,

E3

[Sher2]

<Dear Mr.Williams,

I was forwarded your article about POD companies and do agree with you about many of the companies that you were refering to. I however would disagree with your lack of knowledge of Publish America. This company seems to have a higher standard for its
authors and does provide service above and beyond what other POD do provide. For instance They do provide each author with a website, e-mail address, space with Barnes and Noble and Amazon. I also
understand that Publish America is now advertizing top authors with the New York Times.>


Oh, my. The letter pretty much speaks for itself, I guess. He'll either learn the facts of life or he won't.

[XThe NavigatorX]

He's (she?) claiming he's sold 8,000 copies? Wow. Its Amazon rank is 2,709,634 and BN rank is 619,107 (incidentally, I couldn't find it on Amazon until I put in the ISBN). I called the Ingram system and total sales for the entire year were 3. I guess the other 7,997 sales came from the PA bookstore. Or he used his 50% discount to buy 8,000 of them, which would've cost him $67,800. Plus another 4K in shipping. Or he could just be telling a fib. Or his finger accidentally hit 0 three times.

[DeePower]

Please do explain.

Dee

[Sher2]

<...what's being posted on the "private" PA board.>

There are actually some timely, thoughtful questions being raised and I'm surprised that PA has allowed them to remain. Some, of course, are answered with pap, but that's to be expected.

[CWGranny]

Posting from the private message board seems out of line to me. Sure, I'm as curious as the next person (as long as the next person is a nosy old biddy) but it just seems a little...yuk...to post messages a group of people considered private. Obviously the authors of PUBLIC PA messages expected them to be public or they wouldn't have put them up (so posting the messages here is not really hurting the authors so much as the publisher, whom I bleed for not at all) -- but passing along private messages has always felt not so okay. It seems like there ought to be some line where we can draw and say, we won't go any further than this in the name of sport and curiosity.

gran

[ncq13]

Last time I had checked the private board, only the birthday topic was hot. I checked today after making my post on the birthday thing and was amazed to see some great topics up. Although if you read through, you also see the rhetoric.
Thankfully, some authors are banding together to do some promo work etc. I'm interested to see what develops.

[DaveKuzminski]

They're a hacker group who love to break into things that others try to keep them out of. Interestingly enough, they're also into literature and I have some friends among them. Of course, I would never tell or ask them to break into anyone's computer, but they do love challenges and some of them keep up to date on what's occurring within the literary field. You can get a better feel for what they do by performing an Internet search on their name.

It's my understanding that PA's private board has already deleted one topic because an author dared to do something they didn't like in the mistaken belief that things would be different there.

[ProandCon]

Sher2 (Evidently still a PA author if you were able to get your hands on the messages from the private boards). Hopefully PA will catch you in the act and take the appropriate measures to protect their privacy.

It's good to see you deleted those private messages from PA that you copied onto the site or maybe the administrator here made you pull them because it was unprofessional and unethical for you to do that.

That brings up another point. In the last few weeks, you have laughed at PA author's words that were not spelled correctly in different post several times. It's just a post so give them a break. You have no right to hurt their feeling with your callous remarks. You must be a bitter person and very unhappy in life to want to laugh at a fellow author of any caliber. And you have never spelled a word wrong! Give me a break!

I've seen some good helpful people here especially James McDonald who appears to be a very respectful and professional person who tries to help people.

Sher2, why don't you follow his example of being a decent person and when you are happy again go write the next best seller.

PA is not the best nor the worst publisher in the world. At least leave the authors who are stuck there or who are at least trying to make the best of a limited situation out of your daily comedy hour attempt to destroy PA.

Hate that I can't use my real name but when a person starts bragging about having the means to start hacking computers, a person has to worry about getting on his bad side if you say something he doesn't agree with on this and any other board. That is a scary thought so I hope he is not that close to the powers to be or one of the powers to be on this board. Don't understand why he would make a public statement like that.

Yes, you guessed it! I am a PA author.

[DaveKuzminski]

Me have the means? That's not what I stated. Read carefully, oh great ProandCon. I only stated that I've heard some things going on within that private board.

Problem is, you want to exaggerate what you read into something far more nefarious than what was stated. In fact, you sound a lot like good ol' Larry. Now Larry likes to exaggerate what he can do to others, but he gets his jollies from beating on defenseless new writers who don't know any better. That's because they're the only ones he can handle so long as he can keep them from arming themselves with the truth.

Still, you have to admit that taking their board private will make it easier to delete topics without the general public being wise. Anything to keep ol' Larry happy, right?

By the way, ProandCon, why haven't any of the PA staff dropped by over at the Publish America Yes or No? website at URL payn.freelinuxhost.com/ (http://payn.freelinuxhost.com/) to post explanations and documentation for their claims? The whole world wants to know.

[Euan Harvey]

Posting from the private message board seems out of line to me. ... passing along private messages [is] not so okay. ...

Hear, hear. There's more than enough material to dissuade anyone who comes across this site from using PA, without descending to the level of posting private messages.

Cheers,

Euan

[FM St George]

hey, ProandCon!

let me know how much your PA royalty check is for! I figure mine may be enough to get a can of tuna for my cats...


:D

[ProandCon]

"Me have the means? That's not what I stated. Read carefully, oh great ProandCon. I only stated that I've heard some things going on within that private board."

I think you implied you have the means. You set the stage and then wanted to step out of the s*** sandwich you made. Why even bring up that type of a scenario on a message board?

Why would the PA staff post something that could possibly be changed / edited without their consent? Their statements would be out of their control. On the flip side, they don't even talk to the PA authors on the private message about their concerns. The official PA cheerleader (Don't want to say his name. He loves his name mentioned!) posted on the board to beat down the authors asking about the return policy on the private message board. Several authors told him to quit trying to talk down to them. One mysterious poster (who was that?) posted to say be thankful for what you got. Still no official PA reply to the author's concerns and there probably won't be an official PA reply. Maybe that was the official reply! LOL

I'm not Larry. I'm just a jammed up author who like many have to make the decision to fight to get my book out of contract with PA after seeing the hidden weaknesses of PA or continue trying while hoping for the best. Either way the experience is tainted.

My problem with this board is why do the PA author's messages have to be copied and at times taken out of context to satisfy the ego of various posters on here? Why do the PA authors have to be ridiculed? True, some of the PA authors appear to be brainwashed yet maybe they are just trying to make the best of a bad situation. OK, some may be brain dead with no hope for them.

It appears true that some of the PA office staff will leave you down in the dirt, not return your calls and abandon you in a heart beat when you have legitimate concerns. Meiners should fire the deadbeats on his staff. I won't go into the individual author stories about how some of PA's office staff are presently hijacking their attempts to be successful.

If a PA author wants his or her concerns known, let them post the message themselves instead of people here copying and posting snippets of posts that may not show the whole picture. It appears some of the people on here live for the moment to attack PA by dragging an innocent author's post through the mud.

You have of plenty of anti-PA information on many boards for people to now make an educated decision about whether to publish with PA or not. It has now become a cruel sport for some of you to beat down a PA author in your quest to destroy PA.

Leave us out of it unless we come over here and post our story. I'm sure no one here will disagree that there will be PA authors in the future telling their story.

This board serves a good purpose to tell stories such as Molly's disappointing and dreadful experience with PA's inept office staff. The point here is that she wanted her story told to warn others. Someday my story may be told here but in the meantime leave the present authors out of your war with PA until they want to be in the war.

[vstrauss]

>> Posting from the private message board seems out of line to me.<<

I have to say I agree. I'm curious too, but I don't think that porting messages from the private board over here would be a good idea. I'm with Gran--I think that's where we should draw a line.

- Victoria

[FM St George]

is that you, James?

:D

[DaveKuzminski]

Well, ProandCon, you certainly sounded a lot like Larry.

In the meantime, many of those posts contain information that PA will delete because it's controversial or reveals what's going on at PA. If those aren't copied and posted elsewhere, many other PA writers won't ever see those before PA's censor strikes. Nor will other writers who might be considering PA and who have a right to know just what they're dealing with.

As to some of the remarks made here and elsewhere about some of the authors still with PA, I've noticed that some are responses by former PA authors toward those who opposed them over on the PA board. I don't condone those remarks, but I won't condemn them either seeing how many of them were treated in the PA forum.

As to Meiners firing the deadbeats, he can't because he set the pace for them being deadbeats. That is the apparent corporate policy as evidenced by their remarks to writers.

While we're at it, consider this. Why doesn't the PA staff post explanations or defend their contract elsewhere? I'll tell you this much. It's not because someone else might change their words. It's because... ready for this? It's because someone else might not change their words and that would create evidence they have no control over or any way of deleting. That's why they communicate so little with their authors. That's why they use a number of stock phrases so frequently even when those don't apply. They don't dare say anything new because they know it can be used against them to prove their previous lies are lies.

[XThe NavigatorX]

People have been wondering how many employees PA has. According to PA, they have "over 60"


Our staff is not small; presently we have more than 60 fulltime employees, which makes us one of the biggest non-government employers in Frederick County, and certainly the fastest growing. The Text editing department alone counts a staff of 32. Next month, we are scheduled to double our office space, which will allow us to grow our staff to more than 100 employees.



from: www.mindsightseries.com/d...1093974932 (http://www.mindsightseries.com/discus/messages/3831/4154.html?1093974932)

[ncq13]

I haven't checked to see if I am banned yet, but here is what happened...

Someone posted the following statement:
The owner knows all about POD and supports the " non vanity " approach .
When I mentioned Barnes & Nobles , he was very impressed by Publish America .

I replied with several links to vanity publishers that have books with B&N, and guess what? My post is GONE. Not the thread, just my post.
I don't think provided information that can be found on a Google search should be taboo, do you?
:head :gone

[Risseybug]

Ah, but if it's posted on a PA board for other PA authors to see, then they might start to think for themselves. We can't have THAT now, can we.

Nothing against the PA authors, but that seems to be PA's mentality. It seems as if they want their authors to live in a cocoon, blissfully unaware of the real world.

[vstrauss]

A little while back, there was some discussion of dissatisfied PA authors contacting the Maryland Attorney General's Office to complain. The other half of Writer Beware, Ann Crispin, just checked with the folks at the AG's Office and they say they now have 10 complaints on file.

Ann asked what would be required to spark an investigation, and was told that an additional 20-30 complaints received over a short period of time (2 months or so) would definitely get attention.

So if anyone is thinking of complaining, the time to do it is now. Write to:

Office of the Attorney General
Attn: Mr. Larry E. Munson
139 E. Antietam St.
Hagerstown, MD 21740

- Victoria

[tavonreiman]

First of all why is it that all of you supposed writers having so much time to sit around and bash PA? Do you not have anything better to do than to challenge a group of writers because of who they have published with? What type of personal vendetta to you have with this publisher. Yes I am published by PA, I am not the owner nor am I there lawyer. I am satisfied with the job they have done for me for my own reasons. Enough said, they are my publisher and I have entered into a business deal with them. Why is this so offensive to all of you? Why do you care how many of my books sell or don't? You’re not getting paid off my royalties. The bottom line is we are all writers and if this is a writer's board I would think that our time could be better spent discussing marketing, writing resources and review boards. As far as PA authors not lurking around sitting on ready to reply to every childish challenge and comment you want to make maybe they are busy writing, selling and promoting. But I will buy into your kindergarten game one time. My name is T.A. Von Reiman, PA was one of five publishers I sent my book to. I got responses from Double Day, Penguin and Publish America. I chose Publish America because they offered to get my book out in one year rather than from 3-5. I also chose them because they are a young publishing company and I felt I could grow with them. I took in all the negative comments I had seen on places like this and the positive comments I had seen on other boards. I made my business decision based on my needs and feel I made the right choice. If I find I did not then I will make the needed changes on my next book, but for now I have two books with PA. I have pre-release sales of over 500 books at this time and I do not even have a release date yet. My web-site brings in 200 people a day and generates sales for the books that are featured there. My promotion campaign is moving along as expected and I have had no problem getting book signing dates and have 12 libraries in my area alone that have agreed to purchase my book. Have I met obstacles being published by PA, yes thanks to gossip from boards like this one, yes I have. Do other authors who publish with other publishers face obstacles, yes they do. So now I am leaving this board and you can post your little cutting comments and talk about how I haven't responded to you because I'm soooo afraid. But I will be busy doing what I love to do which is write and promote. I don't have time for your little petty arguments. Because I'm on my way to the NYT Bestseller list and then we'll see who has egg on their face.

Thanks so much for the entertainment, T.A. Von Reiman

[DaveKuzminski]

Would the part about "I got responses from Double Day, Penguin and Publish America" mean that two of the three were rejections since you didn't state what their responses were? Or should I ask some friends in those publishing houses whether they offered you an acceptance?

Your remarks about gossip from this board creating obstacles only shows how little you know about publishing and PA. Otherwise, you'd understand just how your publisher created those obstacles that you've encountered. Then again, you're only about to get your first two books published, so it's obvious that you don't know enough.

Beyond that, I seriously doubt that you will make the NYT bestseller list. You might make the PA bestseller ad in the NYT, but that's about it.

By the way, I find it curious that you felt the need to state that "I am not the owner nor am I there [sic] lawyer".

[Ed Williams 3]

...interesting comment...

[lastr]

I just got off the phone with my mother and I am feeling very uncharitable toward PA. My mother got an email from her best friend asking for a check to buy copies of a book being published by a "traditional publisher" that was written by her older brother. The email goes on and on gushing about the great opportunity he has been offered, because "no other publisher is willing to give new authors a chance" and after he sells 500 books they are going to make his returnable and feature it in bookstores, ad nauseum. We are talking senior set here, people on fixed incomes, and no disposable money to buy as many copies as he is planning on doing.

My mother went on to tell me she had been asked to have all of us help by buying this book and how many copies could she put me down for! I cannot believe they are having my mother shill for them. What kind of publisher has the unmitigated gall to convince elderly people that the dream of their lifetime has come true, all they have to do is recruit all their friends and family into buying their book and it will be a best seller? This book is not even out yet but they have convinced the author he must do pre-sales and send them all the money so they can expedite the publication of his 18.95 masterpiece. Afterall he is close to 80 years old, and there is no time to waste.

I thought watching PA wreck the dreams of a good friend was hard, but now they have gotten personal - they are infiltrating my extended family. I refuse to be the one to burst his bubble, but neither am I going to stand idly by as they try and milk my mother's generation of their hard-earned money. I am at a loss as to what to do - any suggestions please?

[DaveKuzminski]

Report them to the Social Security Administration for perpetrating a fraud on retired seniors?

[lastr]

Report them to the Social Security Administration for perpetrating a fraud on retired seniors?

Now that is a good idea! Bad enough to take dreams away, but to prey on the elderly takes the cake! Where would he get the idea of selling 500 books except from them? I got to explain the facts of PA to my mother tonight and she has "nominated" me to call him and talk with him. I'll do that tomorrow and try to convince him not to buy loads of copies of his book. I'm going to see if I can get him to understand that is not the way the book business works without setting him on edge, or making him defensive.

[Molly Brent]

The AARP can advise you on agencies in each state established to protect the elderly from scams.

The FTC also has a division to protect seniors........for information call them at 1 877 382 4357

I'm not certain of this, but I think the attorney general also has a division to protect seniors

This is really sad.

Molly

[AC Crispin]

Hi, folks:

I should have been clearer with Victoria about the address of the Maryland Attorney General's Office, but I've been down for the count with medical problems for a week or so now, and am only feeling a bit better as of tonight.

Anyhow, the address Victoria posted is not the correct one, and that's my fault. The address she posted is an adjunct office that has been keeping tabs on Publish America, but the office PA Authors who wish to register a complaint should write to the AG's main office, and that's located in Baltimore.

Write your letter, in hardcopy, to:

Office of the Attorney General
200 Saint Paul Place
Baltimore, MD 21202

The fact that there are a lot more formal complaints about PA and its practices than there were this time last year is encouraging.

Someone asked at one time what problems an unhappy PA author could formally complain about. I can think of several:

1. The PA website, and their repeated claims that Publish America is a "traditonal" publisher, no different than Random House. This is deliberately misleading advertising, designed to ensnare new authors who are unfamiliar with the way the real publishing world works.

2. The deliberately misleading claim that PA books are carried in all bookstores -- leading authors to believe their books will be on the SHELVES in bookstores, when they almost never are.

3. PA's refusal to accept mail from their authors, even from attorneys representing their authors. This is highly unprofessional.

4. The PA term of contract, seven years, which is non-standard. Most publishers will revert non-active titles in far less time than Publish America.

So...let's find out. Are there 20 or 30 disillusioned Publish America authors out there who feel strongly enough to write? I'll call the Attorney General's Office back before Christmas, and we'll see how many complaints they've received by that time.

Feel free to copy this post to all writer boards where Publish America is under discussion.

Best,

-Ann C. Crispin
Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com

[dgkgoldberg]

that said, i lurk a lot. i just googled T A Van Reiman and read her web page. I have no need to insult her or put her down, but men tekel ufarsin is clearly on the wall. And, I am aware that she said she would not be back, but I felt (as a long term lurker) confident in saying that she might just be lurking also, and that she might have need of some support here and even though one or two voices say otherwise this seems like a nice comfortable place for people who have unpleasant experiances with PA to come to and I hope she understands that --- I believe she'll have need of support in a few months.

[Gravity]

Hi Ann. I for one will be sending them a letter. Since my PA debacle I've published my subsequent works with a large traditional house. The differences between the two staggers the imagination. I, too, sent PA several emails regarding terminating my contract (and I've one of the old contracts that runs for the life of the copyright). Those emails were ignored. Perhaps PA won't ignore an investigation from the AG. To paraphrase the ever-eloquent Bugs Bunny, "What a buncha maroons..."

[FM St George]

I'll wait until T.A. gets her first royalty check - she'll be back, but to join the ever-growing ranks of PA authors who have seen the light.

it usually doesn't happen until the first or second royalty check, so give her time.

of course, the fact that she feels the need to come over here and rant does say a lot about how she feels somehow threatened by this site's mere existence. And the blatant lies she's believing about how PA is "just like" Penguin and Random House.

but, hey... it's a nice delusion while it lasts. Six months, she'll be back.

[James D Macdonald]

Hi, Terri --

You know, sometimes I ask myself why I spend so much time on PublishAmerica. They aren't my publisher, and there isn't a chance in heck that they will be. So why do I do it?

Answer: I care about writers, especially new, naive ones. I hope that I can say this without offending you, but you're new and dreadfully naive. I'm sorry that the warnings didn't dissuade you from going with PublishAmerica.

The obstacles you've met aren't caused by gossip on boards like this one; the gossip is caused by the obstacles.

The specific obstacles that you'll have to overcome include:

Bookstores:

a) Very high cover prices
b) Lack of returnability
c) Non-standard discount through distributors

Distribution:

a) Lack of a catalog
b) Lack of a salesforce

Libraries:

a) No CIP data
b) No major reviews

Personal sales:

a) Very high cover prices
b) Slow fulfillment

All of those obstacles are directly caused by PA's business model, a business model that they share with no traditional publishers, but that they share with all vanity presses.

Why does PA offend me so much? Because they lie to authors. What am I doing here? Telling the truth to counteract the lies.

In the months to come, you will find out which of us is right. I hope you'll consider coming back to tell your story a year after your books are published. Reality trumps any amount of hypothesizing.

The door is open, the welcome mat is out, and we'll leave a light on for you.

[Arden19]

Just wanted to also address tavonreiman in the "Get a life" post.

I am a PA author, and I've got a life. I have a full time day job, in addition to being a weekend mommy to my 4-yr-old stepdaughter. Why I don't spend more time on my writing isn't your business, but it's because I'm disheartened right now, as well as being uninspired.

I plan to file with the Attorney General of Maryland, because I don't appreciate being lied to. Yes, I should have done my homework and I've admitted that. PA said I'd be in bookstores, I'm not. Now, I never thought I'd be the next Anne Rice, but a little bit of a cult following would have been nice. With PA, I'll never get that, because the only people who buy the book are my friends and family.

Oh, and as for the claim of having "around 60 employees" I'd like to know where. I live in Frederick, and I've seen their office many times. They couldn't fit 60 people in there. Unless they do shift work or something.

[DeePower]

PublishAMerica does not recognize that the person who posts on their boards owns the copyright to their posts. REad from the bottom up.

My response of May 19 to their response

This is a childish,insulting and condescending reply.

The copyright belongs to the owner of the work, unless
expressly transferred to another party. Your disclaimer
has no bearing on the copyright ownership issue. Your
disclaimer says you have permission. I am withdrawing
the permission. Your disclaimer does not say by posting
I am giving up ownership i.e. the copyright. Provide
documentation in writing that I transfered the ownership
of my writing/posts to PublishAmerica. Otherwise remove
those posts as you have the other posts of my mine. Do
this immediately.

(removed my address and phone number)

And this is the first time, anyone from PublishAmerica
has responded.

Dee Power

PublishAmerica response of to my original email below
Jessica wrote:

> Dear Ms. Power,
>
> We answered you before on this issue. Here is the same response again:
>
> No, what you are saying is not true, and we will take no such action. Do
> not address us in such a tone.
>
> Even if it were not for our prominently displayed message at the top of
> each message board page: "Disclaimer: Posting on this message board
> indicates agreement to allow PublishAmerica to use the posted text for
> marketing purposes," what you are saying still would not be true.
>
> Please email all queries to support@publishamerica.com, and consider that
> your sole point of contact. If warranted, the Author Support Team will
> forward your email message to the appropriate department. Messages sent to
> all other addresses and through the mail will be discarded unread.
>
> Thank You,
> Jessica
> Author Support Team
> Jessica@publishamerica.com
>
>
>>> From: "Dee Power" <dee@brianhillanddeepower.com>
>>> To: <support@publishamerica.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 5:35 PM
>>> Subject: PublishAmerica is in violation of copyright law
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Immediately remove all my comments on the PublishAmerica bulletin
>>>> boards. I own the copyright to whatever I posted, whether
>
>
> specifically
>
>>>> designated as such or not. You are in violation of copyright law
>
>
> remove
>
>>>> all comments by Dee Power immediately.
>>>> --
>>>> www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)
>>>> Dee Power (Ms.) is co-author with Brian Hill of
>>>> "Making of a Bestseller: Success Stories from Top Authors
>>>> and the Editors, Agents, and Booksellers Behind Them"
>>>> Spring 2005, Dearborn Trade,
>>>> "Overtime," a novel, September 2003
>>>> "Attracting Capital From Angels" 2002,
>>>> "Inside Secrets To Venture Capital" 2001

[AnneMarble]

The bottom line is we are all writers and if this is a writer's board I would think that our time could be better spent discussing marketing, writing resources and review boards.

T. A., have you seen the rest of the boards? This is only one board out of more than 30 boards connected with Absolute Write. There boards for fiction writing, boards where people post information on paying markets, boards for genre ficition writing, etc. You can check them out here (http://p197.ezboard.com/babsolutewrite). (It will open in a new window, unless I did this wrong.)

The reason people are talking about PublishAmerica on this thread is because it's the PublishAmerica thread on the Bewards board. The reason there is a Bewares board is because they are concerned for other writers. They could just ignore the bad publishers -- after all, like you said, it's not their publisher. But like me, they don't want to see other writers get hurt. It's just like professional organizations that protect their members from bad bosses or from getting a job with a company that has a bad reputation. Only nobody has to pay to join. Writers are cool people in that way. :hug

Feel free to check out the other boards. You'll find that there is a lot more to this place than just discussions about PA.

[James D Macdonald]

Dee, I have to wonder why you're still screwing around with Author Support over at that place. If I were you I'd let my lawyer do the talking.

[DaveKuzminski]

For those of you who know or suspect that PA is shorting you on your royalties because the quantities on your royalty statement don't match what you know was ordered, there's one other place you might contact.

Try this link www.irs.gov/irs/article/0...78,00.html (http://www.irs.gov/irs/article/0,,id=106778,00.html) and follow the directions. If enough authors report their suspicions, those folks just might do a thorough audit of the books over in Frederick, Maryland.

Forgot to point this out: After all, if they're not giving you proper credit, then they're obviously making false claims concerning sales income to the Feds. So, if you want to give Willem, Larry, and Miranda all-expense paid vacations to Club Fed, this is one sure way to do it.

[James D Macdonald]

This book is not even out yet but they have convinced the author he must do pre-sales and send them all the money so they can expedite the publication of his 18.95 masterpiece.

Hey, lastr, this looks like something new. Any of our PA authors like to comment? When did they start collecting "pre-sale" money to "expedite" publication?

This fits in very well with the rumors that PublishAmerica is facing some kind of cash crunch.

Anyone have any more details on this?

[lindylou45]

For those of you who know or suspect that PA is shorting you on your royalties because the quantities on your royalty statement don't match what you know was ordered

I haven't received anything from them yet.

[DaveKuzminski]

Sounds like PA also needs 60 accountants.

[Just A Clerk]

"PublishAMerica does not recognize that the person who posts on their boards owns the copyright to their posts."

And yet aren't all those posts winding up here without permission?

[Just A Clerk]

"In the meantime, many of those posts contain information that PA will delete because it's controversial or reveals what's going on at PA. If those aren't copied and posted elsewhere, many other PA writers won't ever see those before PA's censor strikes."

I disagree. I *do* think that while saving them on hard copy (just in case legal action is taken by someone and the proof is needed) posting them verbatim on another site is crossing a line.

I also think it bogs down the obvious, real reasons why authors should not publish with PA. There's a lot of great information on here that gets lost in the arguments and name calling.

[FM St George]

the reason a lot of these posts are reprinted here is because PA flushes them the instant the PA author (since they are the only ones who can post) begins to question any of the policies.

so if a new author goes to the PA message boards, all they see is the brightness and cheerful natterings of those who are buying the company line - no dissention is allowed. And, of course, the potential audience/victim looks over and says "well, if no one has anything BAD to say about them, then it must be a good company!".

by reposting the messages that ARE being deleted due to their content in a public place, people are able to see what PA keeps trying to hide - the hard questions from their authors about the no-return policy and details about their problems trying to get their books into stores that won't have any part of them, despite PA's lies to the contrary. Keeping the posts on your hard drive does nothing to help those looking for a bit more than the glossy facade that PublishAmerica tries to keep up by banning authors and removing posts that have even a hint of criticism or controversy.

frankly, I'm more curious about the "pre-sale" story above than any blathering about people's rights being violated by transferring their posts here. They should be more concerned about their small, pithy royalty checks that should be arriving soon and now that PA is asking for money up front, should the story be true...

[JohannaJ7]

I've been in the whole "copyrighted posts" situation before (or rather, a pal of mine who ran a large messageboard where posts from another messageboard were posted frequently).

It's all bull. With a side of whining.

The only people who can sue absolutewrite for posting messages from the PA messageboard is PA (or rather, the person who owns the PA messageboard). Seeing as how the posts quoted here are displayed publicly on the PA messageboard, and often linked to from here, PA would have a hard time suing anyone for anything. Copying ten, or even a hundred, posts out of thousands is not a copy-right violation. Absolutewrite is not making any money by copying the posts, nor are they costing PA any money (unless you count the authors who do not sign on with them because of what they've read here, thereby avoiding being scammed by PA, which of course leaves PA without thousands of dollars. But they're a TRADITIONAL publisher, so they don't depend on their own euthors to buy their books, right?) PA has also deleted plenty of the threads quoted in this thread (quickly, someone tell the people who posted in those threads to SUE! PA deleted their property!), so they'd have a hell of a time proving that the threads were of any importance or use to them.

Aside from that, any PA author claiming that their reputation has been damaged by anything posted here would have to prove it. If, for example, Bob Bobson writes "Women are inferior and I dislike all female editors" on the PA messageboard and that post is posted here, resulting in a large number of female editors refusing to read anything Bob Bobson sumbits to them--he only has himself to blame. He would also have to prove that his reputation has suffered due to postings at absolutewrite, not just because he's an insufferable git.

I doubt PA would waste time and money on pursuing such an uncertain and potentially damaging case for the sake of a few of their authors. Apparently they can't even be bothered to speak to their authors civilly, or promote them--so why would they do anything about a few posts being quoted here?

Add to that the disclaimer placed on this messageboard, along with the fact that this is part of ezboard. The worst PA can do is get this board closed, or warned.

[DeePower]

If the book is say 90,000 words how long would it take? Truly edited, not a spell and grammer check on a word processing program.

Thanks

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[ncq13]

For those of us who have posted on this thread that have basically, and very publicly, voiced our concerns about our publisher-- occasionally with a hefty dose of whining; how does this effect us in the future? If an editor or a publisher from another company reads these posts, then a few years down the road a great manuscript from one of the posters hits their desk, do you/they think, "Hmmm. This name rings a bell... Could it be the whiner that openly slammed their publisher? Gee, I don't think I want them here..."
Just wondering!

[aka eraser]

Just this morning on the Mindsight board I read a post from Dodgem James that although he disagreed with being banned from AW he was not going to disguise his ISP and return. I believe he said he respected Jenna's right to ban.

Then again, he also said he was not going to respond to any posts following his own on the Mindsight board and he fibbed about that one too.

Wasn't DJ "just" a clerk in a bookstore? And isn't his current preferred axe to grind the issue of c/p-ing PA posts here?

Coincidence I'm sure.

Not.

[Just A Clerk]

I was only responding to one person stating that she wanted her posts removed from the PA board due to her ownership of copyright. She can't make that statement and then post other people's private correspondence in the same complaint.
I do feel, however, that the issue goes much deeper than what is presented here. Isn't so much a matter of suing someone as it is bad taste for those who should be, above all, respectful of copyright period.

But to answer the concern over whether or not publishers will reject your manuscript based on what you write here I doubt it. My publisher was more concerned with what I was willing to do with my book and much less so who may have published my previous work. PA is not the black mark that some may feel it is.
Bad writing, that's a black mark.

[ProandCon]

I've never heard this before or received anything like this from PA. It would be interesting to see if they are using an author's personal information to market this sales campaign only to elderly writers.

This is terrible if is true. It sure doesn't sound correct. Even Meiner couldn't be that stupid.

It would be a new low but the story sounds fishy. Lastr is replying on second and third hand information at this time to make such a negative and possible libelous claim.

Produce the proof and take PA down if they are pulling this on elderly people. You are making this public accusation without the proof in hand.

Oh, remember never to say his name (you know who) again on the message board. He loves the free advertisement. He smiles everytime his name is mentioned since it is part of his marketing strategy.

[James D Macdonald]

If an editor or a publisher from another company reads these posts, then a few years down the road a great manuscript from one of the posters hits their desk, do you/they think, "Hmmm. This name rings a bell... Could it be the whiner that openly slammed their publisher? Gee, I don't think I want them here..."

Nah. First of all, editors and publishers aren't stupid. They know PublishAmerica isn't a real publisher -- if they know about PA at all. They might think, "Ah, someone who came to their senses," if they thought about it at all.

Mostly, though, the thing to remember is that the work stands on its own. Some published authors are tremendous jerks. Forget slamming previous shady scamsters -- they slam the publisher who currently has them in print. The editors continue to buy their books -- if they're well-written.

[DeePower]

"I was only responding to one person stating that she wanted her posts removed from the PA board due to her ownership of copyright. She can't make that statement and then post other people's private correspondence in the same complaint.

I made that statement to show that PublishAmerica believes that by posting on their board, the poster gives up their copyright. I wanted my posts removed because I don't want to be associated with PublishAmerica and used the violation of copyright as the reason to get them removed.

And to answer James, I am letting our attorney talk for us. However the post about copyrights was right before we told our lawyers to proceed.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[Just A Clerk]

I'm Dodgem James, Proccon is Larry (there was a post there that seemed to indicate that he, too, might be Dodgem James)...

I'm seeing a pattern here.
:shrug

[Just A Clerk]

I'm just pointing out that you can't claim copyright violation while doing the exact thing that you are claiming is wrong.

Just a thought.

[lastr]

I went to the source today and called my mother's friend and her brother. PA did NOT state he had to do pre-sales, they are too clever for that. They either sent him the Independance Books information or he read about it, they did send him the NYT ad info, asked for the list of friends and family, and told him that his first order would be at a good author's discount and if it was during a particular time frame he could also get royalties. He added all that up and figured that if he got all of his circle to pre-order from him he could then send the money in for the books up front and get all the goodies they were implying in the stuff they sent him and what is on the PA Message Board.

I sent him the links to some posts off the PA Board about how PA could not get books out on time, non-return policy, and other things that have not been pulled yet. He has agreed that if he got all that money up front and sent it in as an order and if something happened and the books took too long to come he might have people mad at him or worse asking for their money back and he could be stuck with a closet full of books. He has decided not to go into the wholesale book market afterall (Yes!). So they never came out and asked him for the pre-sale money, they just gave him the same lines everyone else had been given, he read about all the people ordering now for a chance at that golden ring off the PA Message Board, took the bait and ran with it. I tried to leave him with his dream intact but his radar is up at least now.

And before someone posts that he must be an idiot, or didn't understand what PA was saying to him, he is a delightful gent who has apparently dreamed for 24 years about getting his book in print and was told at a free seminar for seniors about this wonderful publisher. He belongs to the generation that believes what they are told by teachers, and other respected people - he had no reason not to trust the information given at that seminar. He is not out and about on the internet, someone came fishing in his pond to hook him.

[JohannaJ7]

I'm just pointing out that you can't claim copyright violation while doing the exact thing that you are claiming is wrong.
To be fair, she did bring up the e-mails to make a point, to show that individuals do not hold the copyright to things they post on the PA board. Aside from that, she was talking to this Jessica person about EVERY SINGLE post she's ever made. This thread uses a few posts here and there by different PA-board members, not every single one they've ever made (unless they're very new posters who have only ever posted once or something). There's a bit of a difference there.

But as I said before, you don't hold the copyright to things you post on a messageboard owned by someone else.

[DaveKuzminski]

Actually, I believe there is enough difference in how those would be used to make that statement incorrect. Using it for advertising as PA would do is considerably different from fair use which is what is occurring here and on some other sites.

The purpose here is not to benefit ourselves, but to educate others and perform critical analysis of some of the contents we've discovered. If on the otherhand, we were taking posts to use in a book that we would then sell on the open market, that would be treading on treacherous ground. Depending, of course, on how it was used in the book. There would still be some possible uses that would fall within fair use, but at that point it would be preferred and much safer to get permission from each author who would be quoted.

In fact, to be fair, even the PA contract could be considered copyrighted. I know of at least one publisher that does consider its contract to be copyrighted. However, the principle of fair use permits it to be copied in total because that's the only way to perform a critical analysis and educate other writers as to what they could be facing. We're not copying it to use as our own model for profit.

And that is what sets this apart from the demand that Dee is making. She has since discovered that PA was unfaithful in its contract because of fraudulent inducement and deception by omission. She has a right to deprive them of her words, despite their posted claim of a right to use those, because of their prior actions.

By the way, thanks for confirming that ProandCon was Larry as I suspected.

[lastr]

Silence might be golden here - deleted my post

[Just A Clerk]

In one post the intent of reposting PA messages is to keep them safe from deletion, in another it's to provide critical analysis. Would it be safe to assume that the former reason is theft while the latter is fair use?

And whatever Dee's reasons are for demanding her "words" back either she owns the copyright to them or she doesn't. You don't revert copyright on messages in a messageboard simply because the company in question contracted your book in bad faith.

Dee has the right to request it. PA has the right to refuse. My personal opinion: Dee, this is a minor issue that could take away from your overall goal. Let it go.

[James D Macdonald]

... you don't hold the copyright to things you post on a messageboard owned by someone else.

Actually, you do.

Unless and until they sign the rights over to someone else, the authors have the copyright on their own words from the moment they type them.

[ProandCon]

Welcome back Mr. McCann. It's good to see some balance back on the board if you can stay out of trouble. LOL

I always enjoy your posts. Some remarks I agree with and some I don't but they are still amusing. Some people just don't get your sense of humor or understand when your toes are stepped on. Yet once they are stepped on you never forget. One wrong word and you're back on that horse! LOL

It was good to see Lastr post the actual correction after hearing everything first hand. I have to applaud the effort put forth to protect an elderly person. I'm sure he'll make an educated decision now and keep his money in his pocket.

Heck, even some younger authors at PA are probably going into debt trying to buy their way to get on the New York Times ad. There were plenty of posts before they were pulled by authors warning others not to go wild buying a bunch of books for the ten available slots. You could tell they were hooked and didn't want to hear the warning. Oh well, more money for the big Miami party!!!

You going to the big party, Mr. Kuzminski? I'm sure Meiners would welcome you with open arms!

[lastr]

Unless that hurricane makes a much needed change in direction, the convention will probably not be held. Those poor people in Florida are facing some horrendous weather coming up.

[XThe NavigatorX]

Oh geez. Their convention is in the Florida Keys in September? That's a slight risk.

[DaveKuzminski]

He might after frisking me for weapons. However, I don't care to waste my money. I'm certain that he doesn't want to pay my way, either. Besides, he'd really be spending money from his authors who are really funding that party. I'd rather it remain where it is so the authors can sue to recover it eventually.

Now what would be real interesting would be for you, ProandCon, to sign in using your real name. It would give you much needed credibility. Until then, your words have no real worth.

[lastr]

I'm certain that he doesn't want to pay my way, either. Bet he might be willing to send you a one way ticket :grin You might want to check the destination on it though :rolleyes

[ProandCon]

Why do my words not have worth? Don't try to bait me, Mr. Kuzminski. Why does my name have to be known to be accepted? There are many posters here who do not use their names and they seem accepted. Is it because I'm not 100% anti-PA?

I call it like I see it. Sometimes I'm pro PA and sometimes I talk about the cons of PA.

I'm mainly here because I don't like seeing the innocent PA authors beat up on for no good reason as has happened on this board. Some may deserve it but not somebody whose message is copied to laugh at their spelling.

You know what is a pi**er and definitely a con. PA letting the authors mouth off about the no return policy and then not even having the courage to post to explain their position on the no return policy or the reason for the high book prices. Their number one cheerleader was sent to beat down the rebellion by threatening banishment. PA then waited for the moment to die down. Now, I have to give them credit, they are smart about human nature and everybody is quite for the moment.

[SRHowen]

PA thing just makes me sick--the more i hear and the more i see of them, I just have to shake my head and stay silent.

People keep saying but they get their dream--no they don't. They get a crushed dream.

Anyone who gets published, (unless all you really truly want is your name in print to put on a shelf) wants that fame, wants to be the next King, or Rice or whoever. PA plays that dream.

:cry Shakes head. I feel for every person who went with PA--at some point I think most will wake up, and many many of them will never write again. :gone That is very sad.

Shawn

[reph]

"If the book is say 90,000 words how long would [copy editing] take?"

A very rough estimate, because it can vary greatly: about 40 hours.

[JohannaJ7]

Actually, you do.

Unless and until they sign the rights over to someone else, the authors have the copyright on their own words from the moment they type them.
Intellectual copyright, yes. If you can prove that you're the one who wrote them, that is. But signing on with a messageboard gives them the right to publish your posts (which is essentially when a messageboard is, a bunch of published posts). The thing is, messageboard-owners are given certain rights--so that they can delete and re-arrange posts however they wish. With Dee, for example, I believe PA has the right to use posts she's made on the messageboard--but they need her permission to attach her actual name to it, and if they want to use it in promotion. Or something like that (I'm European, so the rules and laws might be different). In some cases (at least on most of the messageboards I've run across), the messageboard owner/owners are given the legal role of author, since they will be held responsible for what Snuggles13 and Anonymous write. Most messageboard providers will inisist that whoever signs up for a messageboard realises that he/she is legally responsible for its contents. Usually the owner of the messageboard has the right to publish what has been written on the messageboard, while the individual authors of the messages retain intellectual copyright.

But on the other hand, this is the net, so most threats of lawsuits are quite empty. And I don't think Dee should worry about her posts being used by PA, because I'm sure they realise that if they use her posts, she'll be very vocal about her current opinions on PA (not to mention, they need her permission for it). She can't force them to remove them, but does it really matter?

[James D Macdonald]

... the messageboard owner/owners are given the legal role of author,...

Not true. The actual author is still the author, and has the copyright. The messageboard owner can display it, or not, but doesn't have the right to alter it, to republish it elsewhere, or create derivative works.

There's a lot of misinformation about copyright floating around on the 'net; one of the biggest pieces of which is that the act of posting places the words into the public domain.

Incidentally, even if the work isn't registered, the author can still sue for infringement; it's just that the author is limited to actual damages, rather than being able to collect punitive damages, should he win.

[FM St George]

no, really... got my royalty check today for a whopping $4.97 from PA.

considering I stopped promoting my book last year it's a bit of a surprise, but some retailer out there bought 8 copies - of course not at the overpriced rate of $12.95, but the 40% off retail of $7.77 and I got all of 62 cents per book.

I'm sure there's a LOT of PA authors out there right now ripping their envelopes open and wondering to themselves "I paid a publicist HOW much? And bookmarks? And business cards? And press releases..." and staring down at the pittance they received of less than a dollar a book after harassing bookstore owners into ordering a stack of non-returnable books and alienating family and friends.

so, PA authors... is it worth it?

or do you want to hide behind the "I do it for fun!" mantra that HB and his ilk are going to be telling you? After all, authors don't want to get rich, do they?

or do you want to continue going into debt helping PA pay their "experts" to keep on scamming others...

[ncq13]

What is your ranking (amazon) as compared to the other PA authors? If you go through Amazon, you can do an advanced search for PA bestsellers, I would be interested to know where you fall.
If you are near the top third or so, and that is your royalty check, then I would say that is SERIOUSLY appalling, if you are at the bottom third, I would still consider it horrific, but would have a much more clear picture as to just how LOW the PA glass ceiling is!
I hope I'm making myself clear here it had been a loooooong day!

[FM St George]

oh, I'm right at the bottom or near it - I never bought into the "buy and resell" scam and only have a ranking of over 2,000,000 on Amazon due to some poor soul paying for it through the site.

either way, I think there's going to be the usual awakening over the next few days - some of the hotshots that might have been here yelping about the posts might have a bit of the wool pulled away from their eyes when they see the math - which can't be faked.

the 8% is the same for everyone, so they're ALL going to make less than a dollar a book, on average if they get a bookstore to order them. And after yelling and screaming and making a pain of themselves, it's a bit discouraging to find that the dozen you harassed your local store owner to buy will only get you less than the price of a large pizza.

:P

[JohannaJ7]

Not true. The actual author is still the author, and has the copyright. The messageboard owner can display it, or not, but doesn't have the right to alter it, to republish it elsewhere, or create derivative works.
Not when it comes to content posted by someone who posts anonymously or hides his/her identity though.

Republishing in a promotional way can't be done without the author's consent (though who on Earth uses messageboard posts in promotion?), but when it comes for feuds like this one it's up to the owners of the messageboards to settle it (not every individual poster), at least that what the lawyers told us. Not that there's anything to settle here, since as far as I can see all quotes have been accompanied by a link to the original messages.

[Roxie the Doxie]

got my royalty check today for a whopping $4.97 from PA.


Wow, mine was a little over two dollars, I am thinking of splurging on a bottle of water, the one liter.

Last year though I sold 68 copies without self purchasing or really promoting my book...no money. So with a grand total of 70 copies now sold and only about 20 of those were bought by friends and family I think that is not too shabby. Not earth shattering, not close to what others do, but for someone who never expected to sell more than 20 I am happy.

[DaveKuzminski]

It has come to my attention that PA is stating that it does not have to pay royalties on some sales under their recent special offer to their authors which provided for royalties on all orders made before a certain date because PA is claiming that the order didn't become an order until days later.

I think PA has finally pulled one that it won't get past too easily. If I'm not mistaken, PA set up a method for taking orders. A customer using that method would have formed a contract with PA for the goods at the point of dispatch. In other words, the date of the sale would be the date the buyer purchased the products. Therefore, those authors who purchased their own books at a discount before the ending date are also entitled to their royalties.

Please spread this to all of the PA authors who have been told by PA that they're not eligible because of the dates because PA is shoveling a load of BS at them.

[lastr]

My friend just got his check and statement and *surprise* it was for quite a few less books then Ingram showed as being sold from when the book came out a few months ago to the total sold on June 1, and a lot smaller then the total sold as of July 31. What is their published cut off period for recording sales and what is a finished sale in their eyes?

The Ingram total does not take into consideration books bought directly from LS by Amazon or the Baker and Taylor Books or the ones bought directly from PA. He is going to ask PA for an explanation of how they count a book as being *sold*. He is going to be careful in that request so as not to set their back up - fear of one's own publisher is not a pleasant thing to watch.

The difference is way above 20 as of June 1 based on the Ingram numbers alone. (I am being careful not to provide exact details out of respect for his privacy. I have invited him to read this board before and believe that this time he might avail himself of that offer.)

[DaveKuzminski]

Keep in mind that PA can't claim they're holding any funds for the next royalty period because of returns as can traditional publishers. If the sale was made within the reporting period, then PA is obligated to pay the royalty!

Why? Because PA doesn't take returns! Also, they already give themselves a month after the cutoff date to calculate the royalties.


Oh man, Batman figures in the ads above. How appropriate!

[lastr]

Keep in mind that PA can't claim they're holding any funds for the next royalty period because of returns as can traditional publishers. If the sale was made within the reporting period, then PA is obligated to pay the royalty!

But does PA count sales from the sale date or the payment date? And do they have any net 90 accounts? Each of those could account for some differences between the number reported as sold and the number on the royalty statement perhaps, but not to the extent shown on my friend's statement. It reminds me of that current car ad "There is XXX and there is Not Exactly" PA is Not Exactly.

---------
Batman is on my page too - wonder where Robin is?

[XThe NavigatorX]

regarding what Dave said a few posts down... If this is true, then it is the biggest mistake PA has made to date.

When PA had their original teaser announcement about the NYT partnership, they said in their original email


<snip>....

Since this calls for celebration, and it's almost August, royalty month, we've put together a special offer that includes royalties.

Authors who choose to buy copies of their own book will receive a special discount, PLUS we will pay royalties on those books. Since all royalty checks will go out by the end of next month, the rewards will come in quickly. Our offer breaks down as follows:

50-100 copies: 40 pct discount + royalties
101-150 copies: 45 pct discount +royalties
151-200 copies: 50 pct discount + royalties
201 or more copies: 55 pct discount + royalties

Full-color children's books are excluded. The offer expires July 30. Please call us at 301-695-1707.



This email was sent out on July 25th and July 26th. (That's important).

There are authors who are now claiming they purchased 50 books on July 26th, the very day they got this email. When they got their statement, they noticed the 50 books weren't reflected on the statement. (remember, the pitch in the above ad specifically points out you get royalties on the purchases and it will pay off immediately.)

One of the authors emailed PA about this and was told (his words not a direct quote from PA "I may have ordered on the 26th, but the sale was not completed on that day, thus disqualifying me from any royalty payouts from the New York Times special."

I absolutely refuse to believe PA is that stupid. Them putting off payment until FEB because of their cash crunch, I believe, but blatant fraud? Wow.

[DaveKuzminski]

In this case, it doesn't matter what PA wants to do. It can't rewrite Business Law on its own. Trying to change that would require changing the entire code for the country and a whole lot of case law to boot. Also, the courts hold businesses to a higher standard concerning this than they do customers because businesses are supposed to know these things.

What I brought up is from a law book that I studied in college when I gained my degree in Business Management. PA might like to try to change the laws, but it's too late for all the existing contracts since those would then have to be renegotiated in writing to include such matters.

Also, PA doesn't use Net 90 or anything else. You know as well as I that they take payment up front. In this instance, doing that has screwed them royally over the royalties they're trying to avoid paying. By the way, even with Net 90 or any other period, the date of the sale would be unaffected. That would only affect the payment by the customer to PA. The date of the sale is what's important in this matter and PA can't change that to suit itself.

Just read the post directly above mine. That adds even more into the equation against PA. This shows an intent to defraud since the email announcing the Special Discount with Royalties (SDwR) was announced only the day before some of the authors took advantage of it. For PA to then claim that their sales were too late when those authors reacted before the deadline only proves that PA intended to defraud those authors. Doesn't matter how much money was involved. This is an instance where the Maryland AG should go after punitive damages as well as criminal charges.

By the way, it wasn't stupidity on PA's part. It was greed.

[lastr]

Not counting royalties until payment might fly, but if they make their authors pay with a credit card when they order under those promotions then the sale contract is as of the date the credit card was charged. When did the person who ordered on the 26th have their order charged against their credit card?

-----------
Got sidetracked posting this and wrote it and hit enter before I could see Dave's post above. Maybe the differences in numbers are because they can't count above 10 without losing track and having to start over again?

[DaveKuzminski]

Doesn't matter about the credit cards. That only affects when the money is deposited in PA's account. It doesn't change the date of the sale.

PA knew to begin with that the orders wouldn't be returned or refused. Their system of purchases takes that into account already because that's what makes their scam work. They know that their authors won't return anything because the authors need the sales to prove that they're real authors. The late announcement date of the Special Discount with Royalties only works against PA. You can't set a cutoff date and then use a hidden cutoff date instead. That's fraud.

[lastr]

You can't set a cutoff date and then use a hidden cutoff date instead. That's fraud.

So the hidden date must have been before the email date? That's as legal as advertising a car at a dealership that is always "sold right before you got here."

BTW the authors are posting about statement errors on the PA board already.

www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5736.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5736.htm)

[Ed Williams 3]

...we have PA supporters sneaking around here in disguise, with lots of bluster and big talk. Why now? Well, the word going around is that our friends at PA have rapidly escalating legal bills, which are draining the company kitty, and which also explains all the new "buy your own books" promotions to their own authors. Think about it - you can determine the bottom line goal of any company most accurately when they are in crisis - how do they raise cash when they need it most? The obvious answer to that should tell most any prospective PA author all they need to know...

[FM St George]

the light is already dawning for a few PA authors who are sitting there and looking at their checks in disbelief.

Welcome, all... I know some of you are lurking as not to bring down the wrath of PA on your heads, but believe me - the information you'll get here is priceless. If you want to post, post - but know that there's a lot more of us out here than PA wants you to believe; not just a few disgruntled authors who didn't have the urge to "promote their work" as HB Marcus and his cronies would have you believe.


You busted your hump to promote your book; harassed bookstore managers and paid publicists, fought through paperwork to fight the no-return policy and maxed out your credit card for a good "deal" that PA promised you. And then you get a check that's not even worth the cost to mail it out.

Welcome - YOU'RE not at fault. You did the best you could with your product, but you were handicapped from the start. PA did it to you and you've nothing to feel bad about. Ignore Marcus who's going to tell you that it's your fault; that you didn't hustle enough, didn't spend enough. You have the proof in your hand in that paltry check. You did everything right and PA walked away with your money.

PA is at fault here - not you.

[DaveKuzminski]

Unfortunately, the news today can't all be good. I will quote from a source without giving the name so that the source will not become the target of taunts and insults.

I just got back last evening from Washington D.C. I learned a lot while I was in Maryland and Washington about what rights I have regarding PA. I'll list a few to help you, but remember, each case is different. If you have a lawyer that tells you something different, by all means, take your own legal advice, not mine.

1. If you have consideration loss, you have the right to seek private council and try and file a civil case against PA. If you have no considerable loss then as an author you cannot sue for damages. The AG will not fight for the rights of individuals who are looking for compensation of any kind or to bring suits not based in factual "fraudulent" evidence. The information I presented from my site was not enough legal evidence for the AG office to find conclusive enough to prosecute. According to the AG lawyer I spoke to, everything PA markets on their site is written legally.

2. Misleading information represented on the PA site falls under the Federal Trade Commission and NOT the Attorney Generals office or BBB. The AG is investigating the BBB's lack of reporting on PA, but found no recourse to date.

3. Every letter that the AG sent to PA regarding practices has been resolved, according to the AG. That means that they wrote PA a letter and PA fixed the "oversight" immediately. The AG does not deem PA liable or have intent to fraud or mislead at this time. According to their records, PA has not lied, manipulated or committed such acts against any author. PA stands by this information and according to the AG, they cannot prove in a court of law otherwise. In many cases the AG office considers an author to be a company and not an individual. They will not dispute company issues of any kind.

4. The AG continues to investigate letters received by authors, but when PA is notified, they release the authors, thereby making sure that authors have no legal recourse and it appears to the AG that they are in fact trying to do business legitimately.

End of quoted material.

What this means is that those few writers who were deprived of royalties in the recent Special Discount with Royalties that PA conducted are now the best chance against PA provided they file their complaints against PA with the Maryland AG, the FTC, and the BBB.

[HConn]

4. The AG continues to investigate letters received by authors, but when PA is notified, they release the authors, thereby making sure that authors have no legal recourse and it appears to the AG that they are in fact trying to do business legitimately.

Does this mean the best way to get out of a contract is to report them to the AG's office?

[DaveKuzminski]

It does appear to mean just that.

[Nameless65]

What this means is that those few writers who were deprived of royalties in the recent Special Discount with Royalties that PA conducted are now the best chance against PA provided they file their complaints against PA with the Maryland AG, the FTC, and the BBB.
Yeah, but can’t PA just say, “Whoops, sorry about that. We had a new guy handling the e-mails that day. Here, just to show that we’re on the up and up, we’ll send royalty money to those individuals that tried to sign up—even though it’s at our loss. See? We are legitimate. We just made a mistake.”

And they’re out—what? A couple of hundred bucks tops?

[DeePower]

This is the response to a PA author who asked why their purchase of books wasn't included in their royalty statement as the infamous NYT email offer said it would. BTW that email said "The offer expires July 30."

For educational purposes:

"As per paragraph 12 of your contract, royalty checks and statements are issued in February and August. The February statement will reflect sales from August 1 to January 31, and the August statement reflects sales from February 1 to July 31. (the date you ordered isn't the date that we completed the sale)
You will not receive royalties on any purchases that you make yourself, as stated in paragraph 5 of your contract, unless we are running a special that explicitly states otherwise.
Also, the statements will only show sales from that royalty period for which we have been paid. Some retailers and distributors have a grace period of 30, 60, or even 90 days. Any sales not shown on one statement should certainly be included on the next.

End of response

This is interesting because the statement (the date you ordered isn't the date that we completed the sale) is wide open. PA also is implying that this author isn't going to receive royalties on that purchase by included a quote from paragraph 5. PA muddles it up further by saying "unless we are running a special that explicitly states otherwise," which is what the NYT email did. And they contradict their (the date you ordered isn't the date that we completed the sale) by saying that statements only show sales form that royalty period for "which we have been paid." Well if the author put it on his/her credit card, PA got paid within 24 to 48 hours. Did PA breach their own contract?

Dee
www.brianhillanddeepower.com (http://www.brianhillanddeepower.com)

[Molly Brent]

I haven't received a check at all. My contract was cancelled in May so I guess a payment would be an admission of guilt.

It is impossible to find out how many books were printed or sold since they are in cahoots.......but Amazon did report "only one book left" then "three books" then "two books" and then "three books" again.

I had a friend to order the last one..........Wonder how they got new ones in stock. Also, my book is stil for sale on all the online book stores........if they all have some or even one in stock as they say, then some must have been sold. One did tell me that they could fill an order of 20 but they would have to order FROM THE PUBLISHER.

I did write the governor about the AG refusing to take complaints and also about the BBB refusing to take complaints. The IRS was very interested so that may be our best bet. They also have an agency for internet fraud in the FBI.

While incompetence is not against the law, breech of contract and false ads on the internet are.

I am very frustrated trying to make someone listen, and due to my health problems, I had to give it a break but
just because I'm not fighting right now doesn't mean I will give up trying.


Molly Brent

[publishorperish]

Just one thing, breach of contract is NOT against the law. Contracts between individuals are civil matters unless fraud or some other crime is involved. (I just had to point this out, as I just completed Contracts II in law school.):b

[XThe NavigatorX]

Mini Revolt part IV is brewing, this time over the royalty/July special issue. The PA board moderators are deleting posts in the www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5736.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5736.htm) thread left and right, and word on the street is the posters are getting banned, too.

I did manage to see one post in that thread before it got deleted, which is added below:

trudy61
9/03/2004
07:48:14
RE: Royalty Checks - anyone???
Message:
I received mine yesterday and I'll tell you, I didn't write my book to become rich and famous, but all the hard work and money I have spent to market this book, I feel has been wasted. I am so freakin upset you wouldn't believe.
Trudy
www.geocities.com/tosaveone/home.html (http://www.geocities.com/tosaveone/home.html)

Another post, which was at www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5767.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5767.htm) got deleted already. It stated:

Alla
9/03/2004
12:23:57
Subject: Royalty Checks
Message:
I received my royalty check yesterday. It shows that I sold 14 books. I know for a fact that it's not correct. I ordered 50 copies during that promo they ran in July. The author copies sold were supposed to count towards the August royalties. I also know that at least 100 copies were purchased by friends and relatives in June. Between BN.con and Amazon my rank went down over two million in July.
I am really frustrated, since I didn't even get a response to the email I send to royalties department. Can someone advise me on how I can find out the actual number of copies sold through BN.com and Amazon.

I really need to get back to work. :bang

[Molly Brent]

I called Ingram's info line. They now have 6 books on hand that they did not have on hand last time I called.

They have also sold 13 books this year, which is 3 more than when I called last time. The sold 20 last year.

My royalty statement from last year says they sold 19 at a discount and 13 at reg price.

My contract was cancelled in May.

Molly

[Molly Brent]

I forgot. The previous date I checked with them was on 8/14........


Molly

[lastr]

One more before the thread and messages are gone:
www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5736.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5736.htm)


Message:
My statement shows 14 copies sold and that's way off. I have send them two emails already and spoke to a woman, who told me that I have to wait 5-10 days for them to reply. Not only were the promo copies not included, but I know that my friends and relatives bought at least 100 copies, not to mention BN.com and Amazon. Saying that I am livid is an understatement.

Does anyone know, if there is a way to find out the number of copies sold. I know there are services, how can someone find one.

Just want to find the answer to what might have happened.

[DaveKuzminski]

Report them to the IRS because you suspect they are cooking the books. Just give them what you know. If enough individuals report similar circumstances, PA stands a good chance of being investigated.

Also report the information to the FTC and to the Maryland Attorney General. When those all receive enough complaints, they'll have little recourse but to take action.

One more thing that just occurred to me. If PA is selling your book and they don't have a contract with you, they're in violation of copyright. Report them to their ISP and ask that their website be blocked until they remove your work from their store and stop selling it elsewhere since they are the ones causing it to be sold at those other online locations.

[lastr]

Molly, you need to contact Ingrams and send them a copy of the canceled contract and let them know that the book is not available to be printed any more with the PA label, or else they will keep fulfilling orders and paying PA.

[lastr]

Publish America seems to be up on UUNET, contact information below:

address: UUNET Technologies, Inc.
22001 Loudoun County Parkway
Ashburn, VA 20147
e-mail: ipv6ops@eng.us.uu.net

person: Chris P. Ross
address: UUNET Technologies, Inc.
phone: +1 703 206 5600
fax-no: +1 703 206 5601
e-mail: cross@eng.us.uu.net
e-mail: cross@uu.net

PUBLISHAMERICA.COM


63.89.87.3
Record Type: IP Address
UUNET Technologies, Inc. UUNET63 (NET-63-64-0-0-1)
63.64.0.0 - 63.127.255.255
Washington Publishing UU-63-89-87 (NET-63-89-87-0-1)
63.89.87.0 - 63.89.87.255

[Molly Brent]

PA removed my book immediately.

Amazon refused to remove it and has ordered since the contract was cancelled.

B & N removed it. All the others say they must be notified by the publisher. I sent them a copy of an e mail from PA saying the contract was cancelled but they continue to sell it. PA says is not their problem and they notified the online book stores. However, I have e mails from the online book stores saying they have not been notified.

If PA is reading this, it is going to be your problem.

Ingram and Lightning refuse to give me any info "because of my problems with PA" but they have assured me that they have me removed and my book is NOT being sold or printed.....Yeah right.

Wonder how Ingram has 6 on hand today that they didn't have last month and they sold 3 more than when I checked a month ago.

Guess they forgot to take me off the info line.....that will be done tomorrow probably. Even if the online book stores have what they say they have in stock, I've sold a lot more books than reported......

The numbers I reported were from Ingram. The number is
1 615 213 6803 and you put in your ISBN and you get a recorded message. I don't know how to check any others.

BTW, I am under a gag order but since they were guilty of breach of the agreement, that means I don't have to abide by it.

Also on the contract thing........Fraud most frequently
arises when some sort of contractual situation is involved.......like deliberate misrepresentation.

Molly

[lastr]

www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5736.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5736.htm)Message:
OK here it is everyone I recieved my Royalty check, and it was $1.72 one dollar, and seventy two cents for two book sales. So I emailed the support team as I personally had sold so many books at each of my booksignings.
My friends are the managers at these stores,
as well as to many of my husbands friends who are major artist here in Nashville, and they too had bought my books, so the two sales didn't add up right.
There was 12 books sold at just one major bookstore, and 4 ladies who bought my book for each of their children, as I had signed them, to another artist who bought two books, so that she could take them back to NYork with her for her daughters.
And there were lots more, that I had signed for our friend's band members too, as they had all told me, how much they loved my book, so again I was confussed when I got the listing of only two book sales. When all of my books had all been sold in that same month, at my booksignings.
I did tell our support team, that I'm not looking at becoming rich, but a dollar seventy two really cracked my husband, and I up. We both had this look of what's up LOL!
My husband owns a publishing company for the music industry here, so yes he wanted me to ask what happened. I'm sure there's an answer, but again I haven't recieved it yet.
Maybe the sales will be on my next Royalty check, but we have so many people in our office, who helps me keep tabs on my book sales for me, as I'm on tour singing at shows alot.
And they too are wanting to know why my Royalty check only showed two book sales, when all of our friends, who were at our shows, to my book signings, and had purchased my books, there was way over two sold.
So I hope to get their reply soon, and find out what happened.
Again I wasn't complaining to them, but I just wanted to know where the other book sales went???

Have a good day, and this was my experiounce so far to what I recieved, hope it helps you out.

[NancyMehl]

Well, it's that time of the year again.... What fun!

I haven't received a check yet...which is interesting since I ordered my book AFTER PA told me it was no longer available. I won't say how many copies I ordered, but there were several. I have the receipts and am waiting patiently to see if PA tries to stiff me.

Nancy
www.nancymehlbooks.com

[XThe NavigatorX]

I guess I wasn't paying attention 6 months ago. Was there similar backlash? This time around it seems a bit more severe than I expected.

[FM St George]

there was a certain amount of complaining, but quickly tamped down by HB and a lot of the newer authors - the same ones that are now discovering the truth, in a quirky twist of fate.

HB should be showing up any time now along with a few others to denounce all who question their "art" and demand that they just put their noses back to the grindstone and stop harassing those poor PA people - after all, they GAVE you the chance to be published. How dare you ask for such things as an answer back on your dismal royalties to a company to which you OWE so much...

so to speak.

I find it rather humorous that one of the longest posts to date is from one of the authors who was one of PA's biggest supporters a few weeks ago - guess the scales fell off her eyes darned fast when she got that check, eh?

Authors - DEMAND accountability! There is NO WAY that PA is that far behind on getting your sales counted up. They'll feed you comments about how it takes a while for sales to be counted up and the usual dribble, but there is NO WAY that they can - the bookstore manager paid PA for those ten or twenty books that you had him/her order and since there are NO RETURNS there's nothing more complicated than passing on the money to PA. Nada. Zilch.

Get your money now and get the heck out of Dodge!

'nuff said.

[lastr]

One more off the PA MB:

"I receieved my whole $0.96 1 book which i know better, i have called PA and left a message, waiting for responce. I don't like how this looks.!! ."

Those PA authors lurking might like to know that:

1. Lighting Source will not tell you how many of your books they have printed, they send your inquiry to PA and PA writes back to check your statement in a rather hostile email (I have seen two examples of that email - both almost identical)

2. You can get some idea of how many books have been sold by checking the Ingrams sales to date number off their automated line. You can call Ingram’s automated stock status system hotline 24 hours a day (615/213-6803). Follow the prompts and have your book's ISBN handy as that is going to be needed to check with. Now there is a caveat to this, Amazon does not go through Ingram - they go direct to LS so their booksales will not be reflected in this. Also Barnes and Noble switched over to ordering direct from LS the first part of this year for books with more then a little activity, so some of their books will not be in that number as well. If libraries or others have ordered through Baker and Taylor, or direct from PA those books will not be in that number either.

3. The Ingram sales numbers will reflect sales by the "other" booksellers on Amazon and B&N (marketplace), Indie's such as Powell's and BAMM, and the beginning of the year B&N sales. If the majority of your books were sold directly through PA or off Amazon then you need to calculate what percent the Ingram number represents and solve for an estimate of total booksales. For example, let's say that 90% of your books were NOT sold through Ingram's distribution service, if Ingram's shows 10 sold therefore 10 divided by (1.00 - .9) equals 100 and that would be about the total sales of your book. The few statements I have seen show the PA reported total sales being equal to 95% - 105% of the Ingram sales numbers which makes no sense unless NO books were sold through PA or Amazon and B&N.

4. If your PA statement and Ingram numbers do not make sense together, then you need to follow Dave's advice above.

Good luck everyone, the rumblings over statements this time are much louder on the public board then six months ago. I shudder to think what the comments on the private board are.

[DaveKuzminski]

PA has to be using either a database or electronic spreadsheets to keep track of sales because we know they're not going to hire an army of accountants to count out individual receipts that someone hand wrote in order to print out the royalty statements. So the odds favor them using one of the two with only a few clerks doing the work. They have no excuse for being late with any royalties. Also, since they'd have to be using electronic means to track sales, there's no excuse for failing to pay the proper amount of royalty payments.

The only thing they're doing that really can't be complained about is sending out the checks on the last possible date. Many companies do that so that the money will earn as much interest for the company as possible before it leaves their bank account. This, by the way, gives another reason to believe that they're using an electronic program to generate the checks since it would be difficult to manually produce that many in one day.

One more place to contact would be the Writers Guild. I don't have the website URL or address handy at the moment, but it's listed in Organizations at P&E.

Another idea just occurred to me. Send a complaint to any organizations that PA claims to have membership with.

[lastr]

PA must have a board moderator working this holiday week-end, the long thread has evaporated.

[Molly Brent]

If anybody has the snail mail addresses of the agencies or people in charge who should receive complaints, I'd appreciate having them. Please include the name of the person in charge if you have it.

I am going to include some e mails and web pages with the lies high lighted.

Since my sight is not great right now, I may furnish the info to an attorney and ask him to write them for me but he will need the names and addresses of everybody.

My primary complaint is not about a royalty check. It is that they are still printing and selling my book without a contract.

Thanks, Molly

[aka eraser]

I wonder if Mr. M is feeling the noose tightening. Might he have socked away enough bucks to be property-hunting in Barbados or some other extradition-free tax haven?

[Sher2]

<I wonder if Mr. M is feeling the noose tightening. Might he have socked away enough bucks to be property-hunting in Barbados or some other extradition-free tax haven?>

How about the property in Salamanca (Spain)? Would that qualify?

[KW]

How about Mali? They don't have one and Meiners book is about them. They have his book listed on their embassies page.

www.embassyworld.com/embassy/mali.htm (http://www.embassyworld.com/embassy/mali.htm)

[AnneMarble]

I find it rather humorous that one of the longest posts to date is from one of the authors who was one of PA's biggest supporters a few weeks ago - guess the scales fell off her eyes darned fast when she got that check, eh?

I missed the thread. Was it an author who had visited this board, by any chance?

I feel sorry for these authors (well except for he who must not be named). Whatever happens with PA, they are the ones who get hurt. :bang

[lastr]

I feel sorry for the PA authors who started this week with high hopes and dreams only to be dashed by the reality of a .96 royalty check. So many of them posted they could not understand what was going on and asking for help. The only help they received off the PA MB was to see their posts disappear before their eyes.

The others are quiet today, too shell shocked or scared perhaps to post? Whatever they do, they should not blame themselves for what is going on, or huddle together making excuses for PA and promising each other that next year will be better. That is too much like going home to Tara, they've already pulled the drapes down to make dresses, Tara is pretty threadbare right now.

I hope some of them are reading this board and realize there is a life after PA, and more books to be written and sold. If they are, then I just want to say "Welcome, glad to have you here."

[DaveKuzminski]

Kind of makes you wonder just how long it will be until PA goes to a once a year royalty payment.

[FM St George]

"I missed the thread."

she hasn't been here, or if she is she's lurking. I just recall seeing her ranting on the PA boards that she was going to send her husband's "friends" after an Amazon reviewer who left a bad review - it was probably one of the jerks who put up bogus reviews, but her insistence that she could have her husband use his "cop buddies" to beat down this person was rather bizarre to watch. Of course, her posts have been pulled and I somehow doubt her belief in PA has withstood this reality check.

of course, now over on Mindsight her husband has posted his claim that he's been taken by a music scammer as well - a sad reminder that these sort exist in all types of media and all over the world, not just limited to a townhouse.

tres sad.

[DeePower]

Other than posting to boards, anybody have an idea of how to reach PA authors who think there might be a descrepancy with their royalty checks?

Dee Power
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[arainsb123]

Wow! This thread has grown to 100 pages! And I'm posting the first message on the 100th page. :p arty :snoopy :jump

Just think of all the authors (myself included) who have escaped PA's clutches because of this thread. That should get you celebrating!

[AnneMarble]

arainsb123, your post made me :ha Lets have a party!

By the way, why are there ads for Tickle Matchmaking at the top of the page in this thread?! :huh Is there something about Meiner we don't know? ;)

[AnneMarble]

she hasn't been here, or if she is she's lurking. I just recall seeing her ranting on the PA boards that she was going to send her husband's "friends" after an Amazon reviewer who left a bad review - it was probably one of the jerks who put up bogus reviews, but her insistence that she could have her husband use his "cop buddies" to beat down this person was rather bizarre to watch.

Oh, yes. I think I remember her. She was the one I was wondering about. It was a true crime book, I think. (One that actually sounded interesting to me.)

Wasn't there speculation upthread that PA authors who were really busting hump to sell their books and had a chance to sell a lot of copies tended to be the ones who were smeared by the nasty bogus reviews? Hmmm

Of course, her posts have been pulled and I somehow doubt her belief in PA has withstood this reality check.

I don't imagine it would.

[DaveKuzminski]

Interestingly enough, the review smears tend to happen only to PA books that are taking off in sales. However, everyone knows that the Amazon, B&N, and other rankings online are woefully inadequate for determining just how many books have been sold, especially since PA books in those venues tend to be well below the one million mark in placement. Hardly a threat to any other authors, that tends to remove one motive.

But if those don't provide a motive, then what does since this seems to happen mostly to PA books that are showing respectable sales? Also, who's in a position to know that those books are selling? The authors might know if they're buying their own books, but that doesn't appear to be the case in these instances. Besides, why would the authors want to sabotage their own efforts? I think we can safely eliminate them as suspects, too.

So, who would know the true sales numbers? Only two places know how many PA books are selling well. Lightning Source and PA. Let's examine both.

Lightning Source knows how many of each book is being sold because they print the books. Posting bad reviews, by anyone associated with Lightning Source, would harm their business since they want to print more and make more sales because that's the only way they can generate income. Therefore, it's safe to eliminate them.

Obviously, PA knows how many of their books are selling. They also know which are being bought by their own authors and represent little chance of becoming a success and which are selling to outsiders, meaning those individuals who were not on the friends and relatives list provided by the author, and therefore stand a chance of becoming runaway successes. Sales to outsiders, meaning the general public, represent a threat to their current ordering process because meeting public demand could force them into a negative cash flow situation where they couldn't insist on payment up front for all orders. It could also mean dealing with bookstores using a discount and a returns policy that are more in line with what is generally used within the industry. Unlike real "traditional" publishers, PA doesn't take any real risks since doing so could mean losing money. They want the sure thing and the only way to do that is to control the market in which they're selling even if it means selling only a hundred copies at an inflated price. It further poses a threat because other PA authors might then want the same opportunities because rightfully they would be entitled to those since PA claims that it treats all of its authors equally.

Like it or not, it's a motive worth considering when it comes to PA. After all, if a book sells only a few to a few hundred copies, PA can claim to those authors that PA gave them a chance and that it wasn't PA's fault that they failed to make the big time.

[Ed Williams 3]

....y'all think that maybe I should print it out, and send it to PA for consideration?

:snoopy

[NancyMehl]

I don't know who is writing the negative reviews for PA authors now, but at one time, it was the work of a PA author who also has written hundreds of positive reviews for her line of poorly written romance books. She was easy to spot, because most of the time, she would first write a good review, trying to build herself up as an Amazon reviewer, then she would hit with a negative review. Also, the woman can't spell, so tracking her was extremely simple - and she used the same catch phrases over and over. She also builds thousands (yes, I said thousands) of lists and hooks on to other books (even PA) that are outselling hers, trying to get attention.
Of course, PA authors who know her were complaining about the bad reviews, but had no idea she was writing them!

She has been found out by other authors. In fact, I recently ran across two more (not PA) who figured out who she was. Someone contacted them and told them that this woman had admitted to writing negative reviews in a chat room and had mentioned their names. They contacted her and asked her to stop, but this only made her angry and she doubled her efforts with negative reviews and goofy threats.

Hopefully, after many complaints by many authors to Amazon, their recent changes in posting reviews will bring at least some of her activity to an end.

Two years ago, someone told her that I suspected her of this behavior. My goodness, talk about a nasty letter threatening me with legal action and boils!!!! Of course, she has no lawyer (unless he's another imaginary friend - she has created quite a few) and I wasn't the least bit worried.

Now that other authors have figured her out without my two cents, I feel somewhat relieved. Some people thought I was blowing smoke out of my lower regions...now other people have found her out. One book reviewer who calls herself "Mrs. Giggles" has written a few scathing columns about her.

This is not to say that some of the negative reviews are not coming from PA as Dave suggests, but at one time, a lot of them were originating from this particular woman.

Nancy

[FM St George]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5801.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5801.htm)

michellet



9/05/2004
18:44:10
Subject: PA Author tells world he's "self-published"


Message:
Would any of you tell people that you are self-published and that PublishAmerica is a printing press that simply published his book on demand?

Well, according to what I read in a magazine today, one PA author did just that.

If you want the details, email me. I will not post the details here. It's embarassing for all of us, and a slap in the face to PA, who published his book.

michelleailenetrue@yahoo.com



bikrpreacher

9/05/2004
18:56:33
RE: PA Author tells world he's "self-published"


Message:
I emailed you for a copy.
Apparently this person has no idea what he's talking about...how embarrassing for him!
Good Grief!

Chris Bartholomew
Child of an Alcoholic to Daughter of the King!
****************

I'm curious as to what magazine - usually you can't get anyone to confess to being PA - it's not The Writer or Writer's Digest, as I subscribe to both and don't recall seeing anyone in either being interviewed...

but at least someone understands what they're doing - even if it's with PublishAmerica...

[Sher2]

"Would any of you tell people that you are self-published and that PublishAmerica is a printing press that simply published his book on demand?"


I don't know what magazine that came from, either. If these folks would allow themselves to objectively examine just some of the voluminous amount of information available about PA, they'd realize that self-publishing is exactly what they've all done.

[lastr]

From the same thread

Message:
Here is the article, I have scanned it. The magazine is Writer's Digest's "Self-Publishing Essentials" - the October 2004 issue (I picked it up yesterday at Borders).

www.michelleailenetrue.com/the-article.jpg (http://www.michelleailenetrue.com/the-article.jpg)

[FM St George]

and already the bashers are out for blood...

folks, this is the FIRST PA author I've ever SEEN in Writer's Digest - he must have done something notable to get their attention and it sure wasn't due to PublishAmerica's great "publicity department"...

sad thing is that they'll now be rushing his website with pitchforks and torches while not getting the point - he figured it out and is making it work... at least until PA pulls his contract when he sells too many books...

[lastr]

The book is a nominee for the Mystery Writer's of America Edgar Award, best first novel - now that is something to be proud of. I hope the rest realize he is quite a triumph for PA; rather then witch hunting they should be showering him with praise.

[Molly Brent]

Here is a copy of my letter going out to anybody with initials......FBI, fraud division. IRS, FTC, AG, BBB and so on.....my girlfriend just told me I forgot the NAACP, AARP and AAA but I ain't done yet.....

To Whom It May Concern:


This letter is to formally lodge a complaint against PUBLISHAMERICA, INC. of Frederick, Maryland, and Lighting Source, listed below... and to request an investigation into possible criminal activity and Internet fraud on their part. My reasons for the complaint are listed below, but I need to give you some background information before detailing my current complaints.



I contracted with PublishAmerica in 2002 for publication of my book, THERE AIN’T ENOUGH FRONT PORCHES (ISBN# 1-4137-0098-5) based on misleading claims published at that time on their website that they are not a print-on-demand (POD) publisher when, in fact, all their books are printed by LIGHTNING SOURCE using digital technology, known as print-on-demand in the publishing industry.



PublishAmerica also claims on their site that their books are available in “brick and mortar” bookstores. While this in and of itself is true only for a infinitesimally number of PublishAmerica books because of their non-standard discount schedule, return policy and non-competitive book prices, the following statement purported by them is completely false: “Now PublishAmerica can make your next book available in all bookstores nationwide.” (This claim can be found at www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm) (http://www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm)) Books-A-Million has a corporate policy that prohibits PublishAmerica books from being stocked, shipped to, or sold on consignment in any of their stores.



PublishAmerica’s editing claim found at www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm) “We assign an editor who goes through the text line by line. We edit for spelling, mechanics, grammar, typos, and trust us, that's a vital and time consuming job. Together, our editing staff makes more than 35,000 (!) corrections, each day, to the books they work on that day. We then send a book back to the author, up to three times, to ensure that it looks exactly as the author wants it to look.”


A comparison of the original MSWord file of my manuscript that was sent to PublishAmerica and the first set of proofs I received after it had gone through PublishAmerica’s editing process (I have copies of both) clearly shows that no corrections whatsoever were made to it. From the spelling errors alone, it is obvious that Spell Check had not even been run on the file. As a result, I had to hire my own editor to make all the necessary corrections, and although my editor sent PublishAmerica the 95 pages of corrections they made or missed.. my book was still printed with my name spelled incorrectly in the running header. When I called this to PublishAmerica’s attention, they admitted it was their error but refused to replace the misprinted books with corrected ones.



PublishAmerica claims on their website: “PublishAmerica has a full-time, full-fledged marketing department whose sole mission is the growth of the company. PublishAmerica sends review copies and book release announcements, gratis, to reviewers, sponsors and attends seminars, industry trade shows, works on direct mailing campaigns for each individual book, and sends out 10-15 press releases about our new authors each day.” The only thing PublishAmerica did for me was send out order forms to my friends and family, and they incorrectly called me “Mr. Brent” in that letter. Consequently, I hired a public relations firm for promotion of my book. This PR firm took out ads and sent several thousand press releases to independent book stores and media services on my behalf. I received numerous responses from my paid efforts, but upon learning of PublishAmerica’s non-standard policies, all promotional offers were withdrawn.



I am 66 years old and now totally disabled, largely as a result of stress brought on by my experience with PublishAmerica, and I would never have contracted with them had it not been for their deliberate misrepresentation, fraudulent omission, and fraudulent inducement. Under threat of a lawsuit, PublishAmerica did release me from my contract in May of this year and returned all rights to publication and sale of my book to me. Therein lies my current complaint.



Although no copies of my book should have been printed or sold by PublishAmerica after May, Ingram Book Company currently reports their stocking of six more copies of my book than they stocked in August, and they also report selling three copies in the past month. Ingram is a wholesale book distributor and purchases only from PublishAmerica. Although PublishAmerica claims they have instructed the online booksellers to remove my book from their databases, the booksellers tell me they have received no such notification and continue to sell my book to this day. When I attempt to contact Lightning Source directly to request that they print no further copies of my book, they refuse to talk to me.



This continued printing and sale of my book is illegal, and PublishAmerica not only refuses to comply with my requests for this to cease, they have instructed me never to contact them again. I have spent in excess of $5000 as a result of my association with PublishAmerica, suffered mental anguish and had my health adversely affected by stress, and now PublishAmerica is selling copies of my book and not even paying me the 8% royalties they are obligated to pay.

I want all sales of my book stopped immediately, I want Lightning Source to give me an accurate, detailed account of how many books they have printed (with dates) and I want PublishAmerica penalized to the fullest extent of the law or corresponding regulations.



Contact info and particulars:



My name and address:



PUBLISHAMERICA, INC.
230 E Patrick St
Frederick, MD 21701

www.publishamerica.com (http://www.publishamerica.com)

Original Business Start Date: 9/1/1999
Principal: Willem Meiners, President
Local Phone Number: (240) 529-1031
Fax Number: (301) 631-9073
TOB Classification: Publishers-Book



Lightning Source, Inc.
1246 Heil Quaker Blvd.
La Vergne, TN USA 37086

/www.lightningsource.com (https://www.lightningsource.com)



Voice: (615) 213-5815
Fax: (615) 213-4426

Principal: J. Kirby Best, President



Will let you know if I hear anything.

Molly


.

[FM St George]

ooh, thread's been pulled already.

of course, we DO have the copies here if the author being defamed and threatened wishes to take a look...

someone's working overtime at PA - too bad he/she's not actually DOING anything in the way of editing, etc...

:P

[Sher2]

The book is a nominee for the Mystery Writer's of America Edgar Award, best first novel - now that is something to be proud of. I hope the rest realize he is quite a triumph for PA; rather then witch hunting they should be showering him with praise.


Is this the first PA book to be nominated for an Edgar? The book clearly must be outstanding. Quality notwithstanding, I would love to know what kind of promotion he did to achieve his success. We all know PA didn't do a darn thing to help him.

[DaveKuzminski]

Molly, just one suggestion. Add the word small between "infinitesimally number". Otherwise, it looks good.

[Sher2]

<Here is a copy of my letter going out to anybody with initials......FBI, fraud division. IRS, FTC, AG, BBB and so on.....my girlfriend just told me I forgot the NAACP, AARP and AAA but I ain't done yet.....>


Good luck to you, Molly! I don't know if it would do any good or not, but you could also copy the Secretary of State of your state and of Maryland.

[Molly Brent]

Corrected it Dave.......added Sec of State also, Sher......

I have some other things I will add if they contact me but this should get the ball rolling.

Molly

[aka eraser]

Good luck Molly.

[publishorperish]

Good Letter -btw....May I suggest contacting a lawyer and trying to file a civil suit against PublishAmerica based on unconscionability of the contract and unequal bargaining power. It seems to me and my, admittedly baby legal mind, that you may be able to get an injunction against PA since they continue to offer your book for sale. I mean I don't know, but from what I've read in my two months as a lurker on this and other websites, it seems that the Publish America is inducing naive, star struck individuals with little knowledge of the publishing industry to sign with them. This is unequal bargaining and this is a cause of action. Also, their contract is not standard and detrimental to writers. This may be deemed unconscionable. Umm...one problem I think that may be a hinderance to any action at all is that if writers are considered merchants under the UCC (and it seems as if they could be under the facts at hand), the rules could be entirely different. Anyhow I'm just speculating and such....But I do suggest getting the advice of an attorney and pointing out the bargaining process stuff and the contract stuff. :coffee