The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America) [Archive] - Page 69

bluwinteryfox

04-17-2005, 08:21 PM

What was YOUR reaction when you first heard agents, professional author organizations, publishers, librarians, reviewers, journalists, Bill down at the 7-11, boostore owners, tell you that PA was a vanity publisher?
I was directed to Mindsight by none other than Shemp. I can't remember what the thread on the PBMB was, but he was ranting about mindsight and that other place. I'd never heard of Mindsight and since the address wasn't give, I started searching. It was on Mindsight that I learned what this other place was.

Was this before or after you signed with PA?
After

If you were initially reluctant to believe it, why?
I started readiing both Mindsight and AW and decided to become a member. To tell the truth I wasn't too surprised to learn what I did. I'd had a few problems with Author NonSupport not replying to emails.

Gratian Gasparri

04-17-2005, 08:29 PM

One of the things that bugs me about some of the PA logic (like the threads chang linked) is that it always seems to come down to, "Everyone in the publishing world is wrong! Someday they'll be begging for our books!"

Not to sound picky, especially since my own spelling and grammar is far from perfect, but shouldn't that be "Everyone in the publishing world is wrong!"[TM]? "Someday they'll be begging for our books!"[TM]? :D

Patricia

04-17-2005, 08:31 PM

I think we're leaving out the folks who honestly thought this was what real publishing was all about, that this was an honest small press (it is a small press under the New York Times' definition) no different from Seven Stories Press or Newmarket Press, and that their submission-acceptance-editing-printing was what any other author experienced.

Thanks, Jim, for your continued support. Also, to Jenna, Ed and others who realize that not all PA authors are "stipid" or deserving of their plight.
----------------

I canceled my event for today; and while trying to catch up on the posts this morning, come across the negative light on the authors trapped in PA's fraud contract.

It's one thing to clown around and kid about the naivety of the authors. However, to lump all of them together in one pot and call them ALL "stipid" is unfair. The people who post regularity on the PA boards represent a small percentage of PA authors.

Some PA authors will eventually get their rights back and go on to be successful at their craft -- perhaps even great at it -- let's try to remember there are some people who lurk and read our post who are hurt and reeling from the fraud and hurt of PA -- and need us to encourage them. Most of those, who knew what they were getting into, readily admit it on the PA boards. Just consider, please, those who did not. There are authors in this very forum who have fought back and have proven the theory that even "PA" had the opportunity to turn out a best seller.

Go easy on the authors please, there may be some sensitive ones lurking. Remember it is PA we are at war with, not the authors. I'm not talking about the rah, rah teams that help lure the unsuspecting. I'm speaking of the ones sitting quietly in the background watching, waiting, and hoping for the day that PA goes down and they are free.

Gratian Gasparri

04-17-2005, 08:41 PM

You aren't required to buy anything. It's just that if you don't, you'll spend all your time at YankeesAmerica sitting on the bench.

Or you could come sit on my bench at PlayersFirst Podcast -- for a small donation of course. On a good day, we even boast more talent scouts than advertisers!

Sher2

04-17-2005, 08:42 PM

Go easy on the authors please, there may be some sensitive ones lurking. Remember it is PA we are at war with, not the authors. I'm not talking about the rah, rah teams that help lure the unsuspecting. I'm speaking of the ones sitting quietly in the background watching, waiting, and hoping for the day that PA goes down and they are free.

Mea culpa, Ann. I do try to be mindful of those who innocently got caught up in the scam. Sometimes my fingers get away from me when they see a keyboard, but I do appreciate that there are tender feelings which need to be protected and nurtured. Those who have wised up to the nature of the PA beast, however, should be here, where they will have a strong and unfettered voice.

Dolan

04-17-2005, 08:47 PM

When I received the 50 copy order of my own book before it was released, I rushed right over to my local Borders in Lee's Summit, MO.

They bought five copies and stocked the book right up there with the other war books. Since they took the book, I decided to hit every bookstore in the Kansas City area. Before I had walked back to my car, a wave of depression hit me. Really.

I thought, "Well, this is just wrong. I'm not supposed to be pitching my own book to stores. PA is the one that gets all of the money, not me." I have never and I never will approach another bookstore with my book in my hand.

BTW that Borders store manager put my book on some kind of automatic re-order thing. They maintain 2 copies on the shelf all the time. They do that with a lot of war books.

T42

04-17-2005, 08:50 PM

Life is pretty dang good. I ask you, what more could a girl want? Well, maybe one thing...;)A hamster?

Patricia

04-17-2005, 08:51 PM

Those who have wised up to the nature of the PA beast, however, should be here, where they will have a strong and unfettered voice.

Sher, I hear what you are saying and can tell you that there are some who are fighting PA who are not on these forums. Some are not comfortable going public with the fight or perhaps for legal reasons, cannot. That does not mean they are not appreciative of what we are doing, and are watching to cheer us on silently.

Savannah Blue

04-17-2005, 08:52 PM

Everything you said! Except I forbid anyone to buy my book! My friends and family know that I am in to torture:whip: and I don't care if they are in a neck brace and have no arms or legs! I don't care that I will not make a dime on my book because neither will pa. I will continue to post reviews on my own book at amazon to let people know that I do not want my book to sell and that I am trying to get my book rights back! I am not the loser in this matter! Pa is and will remain so!:Clap:

Well said, Mem! I asked people not to buy my not-quite-ready-for-primetime-book, too. Did some good, but a few bought it anyway. I'd be lying if I said it didn't give me a thrill when people wrote back to me telling me they loved it. I just wish it could have been a 'real' book in a 'real' bookstore and the profits from it not going to line the pockets of such horrible people. Oh well, live and learn.

Canada James

04-17-2005, 08:53 PM

I think we're leaving out the folks who honestly thought this was what real publishing was all about, that this was an honest small press (it is a small press under the New York Times' definition) ...

I'd be interested in the definition. My understanding is that while PA (because it's POD) meets the criteria in number of print runs, it certainly does not in number of titles "published" per year.

Canada James

Canada James

04-17-2005, 08:56 PM

What was YOUR reaction when you first heard agents, professional author organizations, publishers, librarians, reviewers, journalists, Bill down at the 7-11, bookstore owners, tell you that PA was a vanity publisher?

They didn't then, and they don't now. PA is still very much an unheard of company, save for a very few individuals.

Actually, Jim was the first person to tell me that PA was not real commercial publishing.

Canada James

Sher2

04-17-2005, 08:56 PM

Sher2

04-17-2005, 08:59 PM

Sher, I hear what you are saying and can tell you that there are some who are fighting PA who are not on these forums. Some are not comfortable going public with the fight or perhaps for legal reasons, cannot. That does not mean they are not appreciative of what we are doing, and are watching to cheer us on silently.
I know, Ann. I just hope they know we're cheering them on, too. They may be silent, but we know they're out there and need all the help they can get.:)

Canada James

04-17-2005, 09:03 PM

But you'll be expected to buy your own bat, your own balls, your own glove, your own uniform, your own spikes -- at their store. Ever see a baseball that cost $19.95 before?

Dear Mr. MacDOnald,
Your comments about our company are so short on facts that it is actually comedy. To refute them would be so easy that we may as well have one of our juniour staffers do it, but since you have been so misinformed and are using a tone that we don't allow taken with us, I shall tell you what is in truth the truth.

(1) All of our games played stadium are played in brick and martor stadiums.
(2) You don't have to equipment because YankeesAmerica never charges its players a dime (although some players may, from time to time, choose to enjoy one of our player specials. But they are in no way obligated to purchase equipment at any time.)

Player Support Team.
Untraceable Person Who May or May Not Still Work Here

Sher2

04-17-2005, 09:03 PM

A hamster?
I ain't touchin' that.;)

Clearly, I'm not reading. I am rockin' in my chair with Stevie Ray. And thinking about writing my next chapter, which I may do tomorrow.

Patricia

04-17-2005, 09:10 PM

...and her efforts. She has, I believe she said, 20 years of research in her book? Is that correct, Mem? And she is (her :) words), using tough love.

Funny that backfires on me! People buy the book to see why I don't want them to buy it! So, my game plan is to finish my obligations previously agreed -- then go silent. I mean not talking about, or mentioning the book in any way. It will be officially dead, as far as I'm concerned.

The traffic on my website has all but died, since I stopped promotions. I am getting ready to change it and declare that my book is no longer available and state why I cannot and will not recommend PA as a publisher or vanity press.

Gratian Gasparri

04-17-2005, 09:11 PM

Dear Canada James,

I could not help but notice a number of egregious errors in your letter to Uncle Jim. As a fellow Canuck, I could not allow them to go uncorrected. Therefore, I have made the proper corrections in red. Any typos and grammatical mistakes I missed in the editing are merely incidental.

----------------
Dear Mr. MacDOnald,

Your comments about our company are so short on facts[TM] that it is actually comedy. To refute them would be so easy[TM] that we may as well have one of our juniour staffers do it, but since you have been so misinformed[TM] and are using a tone[TM] that we don't allow taken with us, I shall tell you what is in truth the truth.

(1) All of our games played stadium are played in brick and martor stadiums.[TM]
(2) You don't have to equipment because YankeesAmerica never charges its players a dime[TM] (although some players may, from time to time, choose to enjoy one of our player specials.[TM] But they are in no way obligated to purchase equipment at any time.[TM])

Player Support Team.
Untraceable Person Who May or May Not Still Work Here

T42

04-17-2005, 09:12 PM

Ann, I agree with you and I also think that anyone that really does read these post know that all of us are rooting for the authors at pa. If I didn't care about the authors that are published with pa already and those that are not yet victims of pa, I would just sign their lousy contract, keep my mouth shut and be on my merry way. It is not and never has been about hurting the authors. It is about putting a stop to a dirty company so that more people don't fall prey to this criminal activity!

Dolan

04-17-2005, 09:12 PM

I suppose there are some sensitive PA authors. Of course, there are.

But on the other hand: Once a lady, who I greatly admired, said something that hurt my feelings.

Me: "Please, don't say that. I'm a very sensitive person."

Her: "You're not sensitive, you're just immature."

Instead of getting mad, I had to laugh because she was 100% correct and it just tickled me to hear her response.

I submit that it is just possible, just barely possible, that some of those tender, sensitive feelings we PAers show are really an exhibit of immaturity.

Sensitive writer? Don't sign a contract with PA.

Still immature at 63,
Phil

Savannah Blue

04-17-2005, 09:12 PM

A number of people have raised a number of good issues, but I think these are questions we really need to ask PA authors. So here goes:

What was YOUR reaction when you first heard agents, professional author organizations, publishers, librarians, reviewers, journalists, Bill down at the 7-11, boostore owners, tell you that PA was a vanity publisher?

Was this before or after you signed with PA?

If you were initially reluctant to believe it, why?

When I heard these people wouldn't review the book, it didn't surprize me because that was after I'd already started learning the truth about PA. What surprises me is that people know this and still keep banging their heads trying to be the first to break though. It ain't gonna happen. All of the places you have listed have standards for a reason and they aren't going to lower them down far enough to accept PA as legitimate. And thank goodness they won't.

Well, for sure I didn't want to believe it. Who would want to believe they had been scammed? And not just scammed, but had their hearts broken in the process. My book came from my soul, as do a lot of PA books. I had been in a horrible first marriage, though not as bad as depicted in my book, and had honestly been on the very edge of suicide when this wonderful young man came into my life and showed me not only a way out of the horror I was living in, but a whole better way of life. I wrote the book for several reasons. To cleanse my soul, to honor the man I now proudly call my husband, and to give hope and courage to any other woman who may be in a similar situation and might read it. Now, it sits in the bowels of Publish America where it's not being read by anyone. For that I can only say, Shame on Publish America!

Christine N.

04-17-2005, 09:18 PM

Whoo, getting ugly.

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8835.htm

Jean Marie is letting them have it. At least someone over there has some sense. Is she here YET???

T42

04-17-2005, 09:18 PM

...and her efforts. She has, I believe she said, 20 years of research in her book? Is that correct, Mem? And she is (her :) words), using tough love.

Funny that backfires on me! Thank you, Ann and may I suggest a BIG paddle. Most of my family calls me Misery! You did see that show didn't you? Using the paddle on the bottom of the feet can be quite painful, especially if all that's left on the feet is a stub.:eek: Really I have well over 20 years as I started researching herbs when I was 12 and I'm in my @#'s now. (cough):Ssh:

Patricia

04-17-2005, 09:20 PM

Me: "Please, don't say that. I'm a very sensitive person."

Her: "You're not sensitive, you're just immature."
Still immature at 63,
Phil

Overly sensitive is immature.

Sensitive is human. :)

Patricia

04-17-2005, 09:27 PM

Really I have well over 20 years as I started researching herbs when I was 12 and I'm in my @#'s now. (cough):Ssh:

Just a kid! :tongue A kid that is gonna kick PA's rear!

T42

04-17-2005, 09:28 PM

Overly sensitive is immature.

Sensitive is human. :)Hey, I'm the queen of sensitive, but I just keep coming back. Can't get rid of me. :wag: AND at my age, I'm glad to be immature. (Makes me feel younger)

Sher2

04-17-2005, 09:34 PM

Whoo, getting ugly.

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8835.htm

Jean Marie is letting them have it. At least someone over there has some sense. Is she here YET???
Cripes. eBay. The "200" still being pitched. The driving need to pursue bookstores themselves. That's enough to take the red right off your sucker.

Misery -- I mean, Memory, you don't have a hatchet, do you?

Dolan, I guess I'm immature, too. I'm going outside right now to draw a hopscotch board on the sidewalk.:wag:

Patricia

04-17-2005, 09:36 PM

Hey, I'm the queen of sensitive, but I just keep coming back. Can't get rid of me. :wag: AND at my age, I'm glad to be immature. (Makes me feel younger)

Ok, so we have in our midst, an overly sensitive, older kid, who is one heck of a fighter against PA and swings a big paddle! Interesting picture, Mem ;)

Ken Schneider

04-17-2005, 09:39 PM

Whoo, getting ugly.

Jean Marie is letting them have it. At least someone over there has some sense. Is she here YET???

Right Chris.

I respect Jean. I think she knows the deal. If you buy your own books, you've paid to publish.

I would be curious to know if they would accept another book from her knowing she would never buy any?

Where would they be if no one bought any of their own books?

Jean Marie, if you see this, if you are lurking, I know you know. Take this message to the Puke a boards and come back and join us. The next book you write can go on the selves without you doing the work.

Love ya' girl, Ken

Traditional me thinks.

They would have to market to get books to the reading public, and into bookstores as the traditional publishers do. They would have to be more selective of what they published to ensure sales. Traditional indeed.

Their little sceme works, and they stay viable because the Authors buy their own books.

If in fact no one bought their books, they would fold from lack of sales.

DON'T BUY YOUR OWN BOOKS- AUTHORS WITH PUBLISHAMERICA!

Stand up and make publishamerica be the traditional publisher they claim to be. They say that no fees are collected, and you don't have to buy your own books. Ask them for free copies like the traditional publishers give their authors for promo, and giveaways. Watch your e-mail for weeks with no reply, and you'll have your answer, and you'll buy your books to sell. Then you'll see you've been funneled into their web.

SO DON"T buy them, and watch your publisher fall to the wayside.

T42

04-17-2005, 09:40 PM

Ok, so we have in our midst, an overly sensitive, older kid, who is one heck of a fighter against PA and swings a big paddle! Interesting picture, Mem ;)Hey, you haven't seen interesting until I take my teeth out. (I look a bit like Clopper!) Sheri the hatchet is a secret:Ssh: Don't make me get it out!

Patricia

04-17-2005, 09:41 PM

Misery -- I mean, Memory, you don't have a hatchet, do you?

Sher, do you invision full body cast? LOL Watch out PA!:box:

Ahem--Yes, Misery, I did see "Misery" a couple of times. :popcorn: And I think Kathy Bates could take lessons from you! :D

James D. Macdonald

04-17-2005, 09:43 PM

Actually, Jim was the first person to tell me that PA was not real commercial publishing.

That was summer of '03 if I recall correctly. Not a lot of information about them back then. They had fewer books out total than they released last year alone.

The Times' definition of a small press (per their ad rate card (http://www.nytadvertising.com/was/files/others/2005_Rate_Book_PDF_Books.pdf)): "Small Presses are defined as those Independent Publishers whose press runs do not exceed 8,000 copies per title."

Do not exceed? Hoo-boy do PA's press runs not exceed 8K books per title.

-----------------------

Thousands of fans have seen YankeesAmerica players in major sports arenas. YankeesAmerica players have played in hundreds of games, including sandlots and in Detroit, Philadelphia, and New York.

T42

04-17-2005, 09:47 PM

Sher2

04-17-2005, 09:50 PM

Sher, do you invision full body cast? LOL Watch out PA!:box:

Ahem--Yes, Misery, I did see "Misery" a couple of times. :popcorn: And I think Kathy Bates could take lessons from you! :D
Full body cast? Not on moi! The other guy won't look so good, though; not if his name's Curlem or Larry. :roll:

Misery -- why do I now have this unholy mental image of Mem, eyes glowing with an unnatural fire, cheeks purple, teeth bared (assuming they're in), swinging a bigazz hatchet? Note to Mem: sweetie, the only reason I asked about the hatchet was to ensure you intend to keep it in TEXAS. Comprende? :Ssh:

ResearchGuy

04-17-2005, 09:50 PM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2267.htm
...

She writes, "I guess I did learn one thing and I believe that it depends on the subject matter that one has written, not how well it was written."

She learned the wrong lesson. Many ordinary topics have been transformed by extraordinary writing. That is one of the lessons of William Zinsser's great book, On Writing Well. (MUST reading for all writers.) Sure, great and dramatic events draw attention, but every life has drama and has something to teach and illuminate. Not every person is capable of bringing that drama and that teaching and illumination to life in writing. Did she have a book in her that thousands of people might want to read? Who knows. But if she thinks that the writing is not important, even if she does have it in her in theory, she will never produce it in practice.

--Ken

Ed Williams

04-17-2005, 09:51 PM

...between getting the truth out and possibly offending current PA authors. No one wants to do that, I know, but sometimes it almost seems like there's no way to state the obvious without potentially offending someone. In the end, whenever I debate mentally whether or not I'm going to post something, I always think about something my granddaddy, Ed Sr. (I'm Ed the third), told me years ago. It went something like this:

Honesty hurts people some of the time, being less than honest hurts people all of the time.I guess it comes down to this - I may occasionally post something sometimes that hurts someone, but PA engages in conduct that hurts everyone who writes for them. I think that I can bear my burden much easier than they SHOULD be able to bear theirs.

Sher2

04-17-2005, 09:55 PM

I guess it comes down to this - I may occasionally post something sometimes that hurts someone, but PA engages in conduct that hurts everyone who writes for them. I think that I can bear my burden much easier than they SHOULD be able to bear theirs.
The bottom line is that sometimes the truth hurts. Still, the prudent person would prefer to hear truth rather than fairy tales. Just because a truism stings doesn't make it less than true.

Jeff

04-17-2005, 09:56 PM

Thanks, Jim, for your continued support. Also, to Jenna, Ed and others who realize that not all PA authors are "stipid" or deserving of their plight.

Hi Ann.

Just to be clear when I used my New York Yankees analogy, I was speaking more of those people who knew or now know the difference between PA and traditional publishing. They are the ones who were seeking an easy means to an end and trying to attain something that they had not put all the work in to earn. Those PA authors who know the harm that PA has caused to others who were roped in, yet who continue to support PA and their scam nonetheless are also underserving of respect, in my opinion.

Being taken in by a scam is not something to be ashamed of, these people are professional con men and women and they know what they are doing. Rather, it is those who -- by effort or support -- help to perpetuate and enable the scam that deserve our disdain, whether they be PA authors or not.

Hope that was clear. :)

-Jeff

T42

04-17-2005, 09:57 PM

Misery -- why do I now have this unholy mental image of Mem, eyes glowing with an unnatural fire, cheeks purple, teeth bared (assuming they're in), swinging a bigazz hatchet? Note to Mem: sweetie, the only reason I asked about the hatchet was to ensure you intend to keep it in TEXAS. Comprende? :Ssh: Sheri, I ride my hatchet so there is no need to stay in Texas. Haven't you seen the "Wizard Of Oz"? I can fly anywhere on that thing.:Wha:
Quote: by Ed
Honesty hurts people some of the time, being less than honest hurts people all of the time.
**********************************
And that is honesty in a nutshell!

Patricia

04-17-2005, 09:59 PM

I guess it comes down to this - I may occasionally post something sometimes that hurts someone, but PA engages in conduct that hurts everyone who writes for them. I think that I can bear my burden much easier than they SHOULD be able to bear theirs.

Ed, I don't recall you activly attacking or lumping ALL PA authors together. You're always pretty clear that it is PA you are after. :Sun:

Ken Schneider

04-17-2005, 10:00 PM

As this message is on the P.A. public forum, and is not specific to what authors are invited...

[quote/] I'd like to invite all authors on this board to visit my site, www.therantings.com (http://www.therantings.com) , and post some of things you would like to rant about on my message boards.[quote]

ResearchGuy

04-17-2005, 10:01 PM

...When you find out that authors' groups, bookstores, libraries, agents, reviewers, editors, etc. do not consider PA to be a "real" publisher, why is it that many PA authors are so quick to discount that opinion?...
In a nutshell: cognitive dissonance and the strain toward consistency. Leon Festinger laid it out long ago. See http://tip.psychology.org/festinge.html for one overview. People interpret events and observations to match their preconceptions. The more personally important the preconceptions, the more they will strain to make dissonant observations fit by reinterpreting, finding reasons to reject, and so on. We all do it.

--Ken

ResearchGuy

04-17-2005, 10:11 PM

...It's akin, I think, to the 45 year old who buys his way into attending a fantasy baseball camp, and then shows up at Yankee stadium on opening day wondering why they will not let him into the locker room....
Hmmmmm. PublishImaginary. The fantasy league of the publishing game.

BTW, I have in my possession a manuscript that was barely rescued from falling into the PA trap. (No contract has been signed, and none will be, though it was a near miss.) It is a brilliant work, deftly crafted through years of painstaking effort. I intend to help the author pursue every possible means to see it to genuine publication.

--Ken

Patricia

04-17-2005, 10:19 PM

Hope that was clear. :)

-Jeff

Jeff,

You didn't have to clarify anything. I understood what you said. http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

writerjenn

04-17-2005, 10:23 PM

like ugly on an ape!
Memory McDermott

Ugly on an ape? Now that's a phrase I've never heard before! Mem must be a writer!

Jenn

Gratian Gasparri

04-17-2005, 10:23 PM

Whoo, getting ugly.

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8835.htm

Jean Marie is letting them have it. At least someone over there has some sense. Is she here YET???

Looks like Jean Marie's comments have disappeared. So have any responses to them. On another note, what ever happened to that nice lady whose story was accepted by the Chicken Soup series?

BeeBomb

04-17-2005, 10:37 PM

Looks like Jean Marie's comments have disappeared. So have any responses to them. On another note, what ever happened to that nice lady whose story was accepted by the Chicken Soup series?

Naw, Honey, the Chicken Soup lady is in full force. Not posting much due to many obligations, i.e., conferences, yard work, and full time job! I do check in once and awhile just to see what everyone has to say. Thanks for asking where I've been.

BeeBomb

T42

04-17-2005, 10:46 PM

I just sent the contradiction letter between B&N and PA to a person that may post it in the authors lounge. Let's see if they have the gut's to do it. It wouldn't last long but I'm hoping this person will post it and that it will be on long enough to get a few peoples attention. I've got brownies to make:tongue :hi:

lindylou45

04-17-2005, 10:49 PM

What was YOUR reaction when you first heard agents, professional author organizations, publishers, librarians, reviewers, journalists, Bill down at the 7-11, boostore owners, tell you that PA was a vanity publisher?

I was stunned and absolutely devastated. I thought I'd gone with a "traditional publisher." Little did I know that was just a term Larry Clopper and Willem Meiners had made up to lure more authors.

Was this before or after you signed with PA?

After my book was released. The first person who told me the truth about PA was a bookstore manager. He was very nice about it, but very emphatic. He looked at the book, shook his head, and said "I'm sorry, I can't put this in my store. PublishAmerica is a vanity press and they don't take returns." Funny how there are some things in life you never forget. That conversation will live with me forever, as well as the sick feeling as my stomach dropped to my ankles.

The thing I'll never understand is when I read on the PAMB of other PA authors who argued with the bookstore manager. I knew I was talking to a professional in the business. This bookstore has been open for over twenty-five years, you don't stay open by being a complete idiot. I knew I was screwed as soon as he said that. Then two weeks later I contacted RWA, Writer's Guild, etc. and got even more bad news. I'm not considered a published author by the industry. Regardless of what industry you're in, you get "promotions", if you will, by getting credits for what you've done in that particular industry. Publishing is no different. I'd worked hard to write two books and I'd gone with a publisher that I thought was legitimate only to discover I'd been scammed. I felt like the biggest idiot alive, and I wondered how I could have been so stupid.

If you were initially reluctant to believe it, why?

I think it's human nature to want desperately to believe that you weren't that gullible, that there's no way you were taken advantage of. I can't say I was reluctant to believe it, but I wanted so badly to be a published author that it took me a couple of weeks before I sat myself down and admitted that I'd been scammed. Just writing this brings that sick feeling back to my stomach and the bile rises to my throat.

What makes this whole thing even more difficult to take is when I read posts by other people who weren't taken in by PA asking what the he** we were thinking. Didn't I do research? Didn't I read the contract? Did I have a brain in my head? Yes to all of those questions. I did research -- this thread was not even born yet. I read the contract, as did my attorney -- not a publishing attorney, unfortunately -- who said he was concerned about the seven years, but other than that it looked fine. And yes, I do have a brain in my head, although recently I've been hearing this strange whistling noise. Hmm, wonder what that is.

Dolan

04-17-2005, 10:49 PM

I completely believe in honesty and truth. Totally. 100%. Always.

Unless it is aimed at me.

Canada James

04-17-2005, 10:51 PM

Canada James

04-17-2005, 10:56 PM

The Times' definition of a small press (per their ad rate card (http://www.nytadvertising.com/was/files/others/2005_Rate_Book_PDF_Books.pdf)): "Small Presses are defined as those Independent Publishers whose press runs do not exceed 8,000 copies per title."
Do not exceed? Hoo-boy do PA's press runs not exceed 8K books per title.

Me thinks that definition needs to be updated in the new age of POD.

I still wouldn't consider PA a small press. That definition, after all, is from their advertising department and is completely subjective. (Having worked at an ad agency, I know a little about how those rate cards work.)

Canada James

Moondancer

04-17-2005, 11:02 PM

And how many are still coming back after a year.

After 6 months really. Once that first royalty check is left in their mailboxes...

James D. Macdonald

04-17-2005, 11:04 PM

Me thinks that definition needs to be updated in the new age of POD

Agree with you there.

From another point of view, a company that releases 4,000 new titles a year has to be one of the biggest publishers in the country.

lizziepants

04-17-2005, 11:08 PM

Question? How does a person's book get on ebay without them knowing it? Are the three stooges now peddling pa books on ebay? That was NOT a part of my contract so if you three idiots are lurking I would suggest that you not be pimping my book at the ebay flea market because I will be on your a** like ugly on an ape!
Memory McDermott

This is how: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=4541001271&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW#DESCDATA

*sighs*

How the hell'd this happen? Heh, I can't wait to see if I get 1$ for this sale! Jeeez.

The mention of PA books on ebay made me curious -- so I hopped on and searched my name. Fun times. I don't know whether to be mad or glad.

bluwinteryfox

04-17-2005, 11:11 PM

After 6 months really. Once that first royalty check is left in their mailboxes...
I know one person who went back to them with a second book. She had complained about her royalty check, yet she submitted a second manuscript. But I do think you're right Moondancer. You're so excited to open that envelope with your first royalty check. Then when you see it, reality slowly sinks in.

T42

04-17-2005, 11:19 PM

This is how: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=4541001271&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW#DESCDATA

Now I am really mad! I just used your link to look up my book and it is also for sale on ebay. They are getting another letter because no where in my contract does it state that my book will be sold at auction houses or flea markets! I have a lot of previous customers from ebay from when I used to sale the tea itself and I do not want them buying this book unaware that I am not the one selling it! I am SO pi****!

Sher2

04-17-2005, 11:20 PM

lindylou45

04-17-2005, 11:22 PM

...between getting the truth out and possibly offending current PA authors. No one wants to do that, I know, but sometimes it almost seems like there's no way to state the obvious without potentially offending someone. In the end, whenever I debate mentally whether or not I'm going to post something, I always think about something my granddaddy, Ed Sr. (I'm Ed the third), told me years ago. It went something like this:

I guess it comes down to this - I may occasionally post something sometimes that hurts someone, but PA engages in conduct that hurts everyone who writes for them. I think that I can bear my burden much easier than they SHOULD be able to bear theirs.

In a situation like this one, truth is eventually appreciated.

Sher2

04-17-2005, 11:22 PM

Sassenach

04-17-2005, 11:24 PM

lizziepants

04-17-2005, 11:27 PM

Now I am really mad! I just used your link to look up my book and it is also for sale on ebay. They are getting another letter because no where in my contract does it state that my book will be sold at auction houses or flea markets! I have a lot of previous customers from ebay from when I used to sale the tea itself and I do not want them buying this book unaware that I am not the one selling it! I am SO pi****!

So far, every PA author name I can think of has books on ebay, I'm looking them up. I really don't know if (and I hate admitting that) it's allowed in my contract. The ebay store that has mine a1_books; says in their policy info they purchase most of their volumes from discount warehouses/publishers. So. Who knows, I mean, I know it'd be perfectly legal for me to go out and buy Zaz's book (which I'm reading) and then to put it on Ebay -- somewhere in there you'd think in good faith we'd be paid on the sale, right? Suuuuuuuuure.

I'm emailing my lawyer, I wonder if he's seen this.

Sher2

04-17-2005, 11:29 PM

This is how: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=4541001271&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW#DESCDATA

*sighs*

How the hell'd this happen? Heh, I can't wait to see if I get 1$ for this sale! Jeeez.

The mention of PA books on ebay made me curious -- so I hopped on and searched my name. Fun times. I don't know whether to be mad or glad.
Okay, now I'm pissed! I'm there, too, with supposedly 101 books available at $17.87 a pop. If somebody bought 101 copies, then where the hell is my money?!

Mem, get the hatchet ready. None of the tricks I had up my sleeve will work fast enough.

Richard

04-17-2005, 11:31 PM

Amen, Saundra. I think we PA authors have a connection to the big guy above. It's the power of prayer.

Speaking as an dedicated, occasionaly even evangelical athiest, I thank PA for validating my belief system.

astonwest

04-17-2005, 11:36 PM

T42

04-17-2005, 11:38 PM

Okay, now I'm pissed! I'm there, too, with supposedly 101 books available at $17.87 a pop. If somebody bought 101 copies, then where the hell is my money?!

Mem, get the hatchet ready. None of the tricks I had up my sleeve will work fast enough.I'm sure this A1 bookstore or whatever is the three stooges or someone they have hired but I wrote them a message at their online ebay store and told them that they do not have my permission to peddle my book on ebay and that I want it taken off.
I noticed that whoever it is has a lot of negatives on their feedback which really makes our books look like crap!:) Which they are!

Jeff

04-17-2005, 11:39 PM

Have any of you noticed all the great things that are happening to our personal and PA families? There's a higher power working here!

Amen, Saundra. I think we PA authors have a connection to the big guy above. It's the power of prayer.

Sass,

When reason fails, faith previals.

(Not sure if anyone has ever said that before, but they should have)

-Jeff

T42

04-17-2005, 11:41 PM

Funny how they have to go under an assumed name to sell on Ebay. This is going to cost them a lawsuit! I will not have previous tea customers assuming that I have my book for sale on Ebay and appove of it!

lizziepants

04-17-2005, 11:42 PM

Wowsers, just checked my book, and it says they have 103 copies available...weird.

Aren't they (a1books) the same folks who post up on Amazon they have copies for sale? I believe somewhere along the line, someone mentioned they list them for sale, and then place an order with the publisher when they have a buyer...

They are the same people who supposedly have hundreds of copies on Amazon from time to time -- hmm. Reading through the feedback for A1 on ebay, appears as if often times they're offering titles they don't have, so -- perhaps they are just listing them and then ordering them, etc.

They have about a hundred of mine, supposedly.

Girls, girls. Hatchets don't hurt bigtime thiefs, lawyers do. Mostly for my amusement I emailed A1 and asked them politely if they knew they were reselling books published by criminals from which the writers weren't being paid. We'll see if I get a reply. High comedy on Sunday, lemme tell ya.

Canada James

04-17-2005, 11:42 PM

Okay, now I'm pissed! I'm there, too, with supposedly 101 books available at $17.87 a pop. If somebody bought 101 copies, then where the hell is my money?!

It says that because Ingram lists having 101 copies of your book "on hand" due to the no stocking clause of POD books they instituted last year. If it says "103" or more, it's because they had 2 actual copies in stock before listing your book at 101.
For example, Oregon might have had 2 real copies in stock. They new system kicks in, and Tennessee lists the book as 101 virtual copies in stock. Therefore, suppliers such as A1books will list having 103 copies of your book "on hand".

My opinion of having my book available on ebay? Who cares.

Canada James

Jaws

04-17-2005, 11:46 PM

Sorry, but any sports analogy breaks down where one is forced to imagine Shemp in a mini-skirt with pom-poms.
I can break it down farther:
Pictures of Shemp on a "cheerleader-porn" website.

lizziepants

04-17-2005, 11:47 PM

CJ's absolutely write. Heh. And besides, it's probably not illegal, just surprised the hell outta me.

Jeff

04-17-2005, 11:49 PM

http://www.a1books.com:8080/mkt/faq.do

Sheryl Nantus

04-17-2005, 11:54 PM

mine's up there...

and STILL grossly overpriced.

ain't gonna sell 102 of those, methinks...

:D

Sher2

04-17-2005, 11:56 PM

Girls, girls. Hatchets don't hurt bigtime thiefs, lawyers do. Mostly for my amusement I emailed A1 and asked them politely if they knew they were reselling books published by criminals from which the writers weren't being paid. We'll see if I get a reply. High comedy on Sunday, lemme tell ya.
Maybe not, but a big enough hatchet applied to a tender part won't do them any good, either.:roll:

I work for a lawyer. The idiot said my contract looked fine to him. :D

I'll defer to Canada James's take on the situation, but I'm still e-mailing A1.

bluwinteryfox

04-18-2005, 12:01 AM

I’ve been doing some thinking about the PA family. About how those who post on their message board feel it is a family. How everyone would say, once they received their author copies, that they are now holding onto their babies.

I always wondered why they’d say our wonderful PA family. I never felt this family connection everyone was talking about. Now this may have been because when I said my first hello, nobody replied to my post. I also never called my author copies my babies. For crying out loud they are books, pure and simple books. After talking with members of another group, I’ve come to the conclusion this may be because the book PA print is not my first manuscript. This book I wrote in a very short time and I had fun doing so. My first manuscript, which by the way is over 700 pages double spaced, I have more of a connection with.

Because of this Board, :thankyou: thanks to Jenna, along with the help of Jim, Victoria, AnnC, Ed the Mighty Pickler, and Dave (sorry for those I’ve left out) have put into helping people steer clear of PA. Of gently assisiting those of us who made the mistake of signing with PA understand what happened, and what they can now do, I can say I somewhat understand the feelings most PA people on their board have.

People on this board are nice, plain and simple they are nice. They care about what happens to others who have no idea what they are doing. They don’t shove it in your face the mistakes you made. They are nice enough to offer help, even if you don’t ask for it. Nobody has to do this, yet they are.

Look at the different threads this board has. A mentor one. One to critique your work. A thread for Romance, Science Fiction, Poetry, the list goes on and on. There are so many ways that help is offered and at NO monetary cost. They could do just as PA wants those on it’s board to believe. Anyone published with any of the Big Publishers don’t want you to be included in their club. I fully believe that when any one of us ex PA writers get a contract with a publisher, be it big or small the entire board will be thrilled. :hooray: :Clap:

T42

04-18-2005, 12:02 AM

I need to get off the puter but this is what I just sent to pa. It doesn't sound professional but I don't care. I stopped being professional with those idiots a long time ago!

meg@publishamerica.com,patrice@publishamerica.com, pratherm@publishamerica.com (meg@publishamerica.com,patrice@publishamerica.com ,pratherm@publishamerica.com)

April 17, 2005

No where in my contract does it say that my books will be peddled at the ebay flea market or any other flea market. Don't tell me either that this is an individual selling them because if that is so then you all owe me for 100 books!

I want my books taken off of ebay and any other auction house you may have them on now or I am filing a law suit now! I have given you all plenty of time to give my book rights back and to terminate my contract and now you have really kissed (changed the word for the benifit of friends) me off!

Memory McDermott

writerjenn

04-18-2005, 12:03 AM

I can break it down farther:
Pictures of Shemp on a "cheerleader-porn" website.

My eyes! My eyes!! Nooooooooo...

Jenn

AnneMarble

04-18-2005, 12:15 AM

over this thread.
http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8825.htm

e.g.:

Have any of you noticed all the great things that are happening to our personal and PA families?
There's a higher power working here!

It reminds me of war in Medieval Europe (and later). Every country always believed God was behind their side, never mind that the kings and generals were commanding soldiers to hack people to bits. Never mind that the other country believed God was on their side.

But actually, the idea of Medieval kings thinking that God is on their side in a battle makes more sense to me than people thinking that God is on the site of (ugh) PA.

:Shrug:

Ken Schneider

04-18-2005, 12:19 AM

This is how: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=4541001271&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW#DESCDATA

*sighs*

How the hell'd this happen? Heh, I can't wait to see if I get 1$ for this sale! Jeeez.

The mention of PA books on ebay made me curious -- so I hopped on and searched my name. Fun times. I don't know whether to be mad or glad.

Liz, honey, It looks fairly simple to me. I buy your book for 16.95-as cheap as I can get it. I own the book. I sell it on any-bay I choose for a profit.

Example. I buy for 14.95- put it on ebay for 22.95. I know I can ship it for 1.44 media mail. Bam, I make 4-5 bucks. You still get your royalty.

Ken.

P.S., you owe me a beer. hugs.

Sassenach

04-18-2005, 12:28 AM

I need to get off the puter but this is what I just sent to pa. It doesn't sound professional but I don't care. I stopped being professional with those idiots a long time ago!
:::::snip::::::

Mem, with all due respect for your situation, it does indeed sound unprofessional. More importantly, that sort of language and threatening lawsuits, etc., are counter-productive.

T42

04-18-2005, 12:32 AM

Liz, honey, It looks fairly simple to me. I buy your book for 16.95-as cheap as I can get it. I own the book. I sell it on any-bay I choose for a profit.

Example. I buy for 14.95- put it on ebay for 22.95. I know I can ship it for 1.44 media mail. Bam, I make 4-5 bucks. You still get your royalty.

Ken.

P.S., you owe me a beer. hugs.All I can say is if an individual is buying and reselling then they owe a bunch of us some money. Either way they have been caught! (I'm sure that it is just the three stooges incognito)

Uncarved

04-18-2005, 12:35 AM

Wow, my book isn't even on ebay.... even PA has abandoned it, lol

T42

04-18-2005, 12:38 AM

Mem, with all due respect for your situation, it does indeed sound unprofessional. More importantly, that sort of language and threatening lawsuits, etc., are counter-productive.Yes, I understand what you are saying but them telling me to "not take that tone" does not sound professional either. As for my language, I don't normally swear. Never have, they just bring it out of me. As for the law-suit it's not a threat. Everyone has their way of dealing with pa and this is mine. I tried to be professional and that didn't work. (Neither did the time I tried to be reasonable or professional with a rattle snake.)

Ken Schneider

04-18-2005, 12:43 AM

All I can say is if an individual is buying and reselling then they owe a bunch of us some money. Either way they have been caught! (I'm sure that it is just the three stooges incognito)

T42, I assume you mean P.A. owes us money. The buyer could burn, cut to shreads, fold, spindle, or, mutilate, and re-sell a purchased book.

I have found that a P.A. author is selling mine. Toysthebook-dazzlin' Dave.

In the words of my esteemed friend Uncle Jim.

The sound of hollow laughter.

T42

04-18-2005, 12:49 AM

T42, I assume you mean P.A. owes us money. The buyer could burn, cut to shreads, fold, spindle, or, mutilate, and re-sell a purchased book.

I have found that a P.A. author is selling mine. Toysthebook-dazzlin' Dave.

http://www.a1books.com/cgi-bin/mktSearch

In the words of my esteemed friend Uncle Jim.

The sound of hollow laughter.Yes, I mean pa because if this person is advertising that he has 100 books then he would have had to have bought 100 books unless of course he has made a deal with pa to purchase as he sells them, then this would mean that he is falsely stating that he has 100 books which is a no no on ebay. So, either this is pa or this person has made a deal and is lying! This person also has a lot of negative feedback which could mean he hasn't sent the books as requested or the books were lousy or a number of things. I have been to angry to go back and see what the negative feedbacks are about right now. I do not want my books sold anywhere. I have already been trying to get them off of Amazon and other on line stores which is harder because I was aware that they would be sold there when I signed the contract. (Of course I thought they would be sold in the stores too)

mdmkay

04-18-2005, 12:54 AM

Awww hell, I'm probably not going to add anything new but as the proud (NOT) owner of not one but two PA books I just want to throw my 2 cents in (I should at least get that satisfaction). I found my book on ebay like everyone else. I did notice that it isn't on an aution its on the buy now area that ebay has for businesses that wish to link up with them for advertising them. They have 101 books available ( pretty damn optimistic of them since they told me they've only sold a total of 6 since Jan of 2004 and yet they waited until my amazon sales rank made a jump of approx 2500 and I had that contract in my hand the next week.) Too bad I didn't wait until I had gotten the next royalty check before signing the damn thing. Funny how that worked out. I just can't imagine why they would want another book from an author who only sold 6 books for them (I'm being sarcastic. Yes I was stupid but hopefully it wasn't terminal). It does make me feel better knowing I wasn't the only one but it really wasn't myself I feel so bad about. I KNOW now what creeps they are. I guess I shouldn't have gone over to the PA boards because I was so heartbroken to see so many happy posts by people who really thought they were on their way to fulfilling their dream of becoming an author. There is something you have to understand, I'm a very pragmatic person, and I think that PA could very well serve a valuable purpose for people who have written a book and all they want is to see their book in print so they can sell it themselves to their relatives and friends and feel good about themselves (as long as they don't mind lining PA's pockets and not their own). The thing I have a BIG PROBLEM with is PA trying to pass themself off as a traditional publisher that will lead to a real step towards a carreer in writing (who in their right mind would ever use them as a reference, or even admit they had a book published by them?) It isn't that they are publishing books that is torquing everone's cord its the fact they lie, steal, and scheme to scam authors to do it. I'm fairly new to this site but guess what? I still have my PA password. (bwaahaahahahaha- that was supposed to pass for evil laughter but I can't spell worth crap). I have been fighting PA tooth and nail so I've kept my back-biting low key about PA but I'm starting to think that is seems like the squeaky wheels are getting the heave-ho out of their contracts (I SOOOOOOOO WANT A PIECE OF THAT). So far I've kept them from actually publishing the second book and I've gotten amendments for both books (that I'd be a damn fool to sign) so I believe I'm getting closer. Do those a$$es think we can't read or even decipher the english language in those things???????? (Hell, look who's talking signer of 2 evil soul stealing contracts). THE POINT HERE IS.......I can still get on the PA boards so if anyone has something nice they want to get slipped in over there I'm all yours as long as it doesn't undo my own evil doings. The reason I haven't said anything much about what I've been doing is because I've been using a club that I'm kind of embarrassed about using and it wouldn't help anyone else (sorry) but I would be more than happy to help in anyway I can to bring PA down. (OK I do feel guilty about hiding the reason I had a bit of a leg up but if you go to www.mdmkay.blogspot.com (http://www.mdmkay.blogspot.com) if you that curious you'll figure out why I didn't announce it to God and everybody). I think that is what pisses me off the worst about PA it took me 20 years to finally publish that damn book and I went through hell and back to do it then to find out I had gone through it just to be ripped off really split my spleen. So much for baring your soul to help someone else. I think next time I'll just stick to my children stories from now on. At least if someone screws me on one of those it won't leave me bleeding and crying on the floor. OK my 2 cents ended up more like a nickel but I feel better now. So on goes the saga---------:horse:

Ed Williams

04-18-2005, 12:55 AM

1. BeeBomb, you sexy thing, it's always good to see you here. And then some.

2. I know everyone here mentions the quality of posts at times, and for my money Canada James is doing one helluva job in that department. I greatly enjoy/learn from your posts.

3. For those of you sending me private notes and accusing me of loving women, let me clear something up - I DO!!!! BIG TIME!!!! And the day I don't I hope I'm colder than a popsicle.

4. Something must be brewing on PA's private boards because an author is asking Infocenter for help there. We don't like posting anything from a private board here (for obvious reasons), but if someone knows what the deal is and wants to PM me, I'm all ears...

5. The "200 author" book idea is still being pushed - is it just me, or is the whole damn idea akin to one building a bonfire in a rainforest?

6. In the category of "someday my prince will come," we have this sad posting:

PA is my publisher and here I will stay. I thought about trying to find an agent, but the way I figure it, PA will have an author that comes along and will have a #1 best seller! After that, we will all be taken much more seriously and PA's rep. will go thru the roof! Isn't it nice to be in on the ground floor of such a sweet deal?Love, it's about as sweet as the sweat off a hippo's heiny, and that may be me being derogatory to the hippo.

7. In the category of "I'm finally admitting publishing with PA does cost the author money," we have this:

PA has provided the mechanism for me to have my manuscript turned into a book and made available online, with an upfront investment of only $30.00 for the copyright.What about the author copies you've purchased, my friend, how much have they set you back?

Such is another day in the Great and Mighty Land of Poz...

Sher2

04-18-2005, 12:58 AM

Yes, I mean pa because if this person is advertising that he has 100 books then he would have had to have bought 100 books unless of course he has made a deal with pa to purchase as he sells them, then this would mean that he is falsely stating that he has 100 books which is a no no on ebay. So, either this is pa or this person has made a deal and is lying! This person also has a lot of negative feedback which could mean he hasn't sent the books as requested or the books were lousy or a number of things. I have been to angry to go back and see what the negative feedbacks are about right now. I do not want my books sold anywhere. I have already been trying to get them off of Amazon and other on line stores which is harder because I was aware that they would be sold there when I signed the contract. (Of course I thought they would be sold in the stores too)
If you figure out how this works -- actual stock or not, who's ordering said stock and on what basis -- please let me know.

Hey, y'all know what? I started chatting with somebody on this board yesterday and today we figured out that we're distant cousins. How cool is that?!

Oh, and Mem, rattlesnakes, much like husbands, can be trained. :ROFL:

robeiae

04-18-2005, 01:01 AM

It looks to me that A1 Books is merely a distributer. According to their FAQ page, anyone can enter a book into their distribution list. I would suggest that PA has entered all their books into the A1 database; PA is essentially treating A1 like Amazon, B&N, Booksamillion, etc.

In other words, there is nothing to get worked up about. Honestly, it's a dead end for PA authors: who is going to search ebay for an overpriced book by an unknown author.

What may be going on here, however, is that PA is using A1 listings to derail the authors who were going to try and market their personally purchased books on ebay. With the shipping and handling surcharge, a PA author might actually trun a small profit, and we can't have that, can we?

Rob

T42

04-18-2005, 01:03 AM

3. For those of you sending me private notes and accusing me of loving women, let me clear something up - I DO!!!! BIG TIME!!!! And the day I don't I hope I'm colder than a popsicle.

Listen my sweet little choir boy, I could have been the preachers daughter but I won't put up with you going to the back room of the user cp all the time! You stay out here where I can keep an eye on you!:whip:

ResearchGuy

04-18-2005, 01:04 AM

over this thread.
http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8825.htm

e.g.:

Have any of you noticed all the great things that are happening to our personal and PA families?
There's a higher power working here!

Amen, Saundra. I think we PA authors have a connection to the big guy above. It's the power of prayer.
Seems like the same underlying dynamic that drives a parent whose children were maimed in a church bus crash to say, "We thank the Lord that little Billy-Bob and Lizzy-May still have a usable limb each, and might be able to talk again one day. We are just so grateful for His mercy." In publishing terms, PA sounds much like a bus crash, with maimed literary survivors still clinging to POD life and perhaps to be read some day, by someone.

--Ken

T42

04-18-2005, 01:07 AM

If you figure out how this works -- actual stock or not, who's ordering said stock and on what basis -- please let me know.

Hey, y'all know what? I started chatting with somebody on this board yesterday and today we figured out that we're distant cousins. How cool is that?!

Oh, and Mem, rattlesnakes, much like husbands, can be trained. :ROFL: Oh no Sheri girl, is this one of those twice removed type cousins? The kind that the stooges will be inviting to the "sign our new contract" reunion. You know, the one where the whole famdamnly must keep them itty bitty mouths shut!

mdin

04-18-2005, 01:07 AM

Those of you upset about your book on Ebay need to reread what Canada James said.

They're just another store, and they're utilizing Ebay's marketplace. Just because your book is for sale doesn't mean any have sold. They don't have 101 copies in stock. They don't have any in stock. They only obtain a book when and if it's sold. They're a bookseller like Alibris.

This has nothing to do with PA and everything to do with your book being listed in Ingram. Sending angry letters off to PA will only open yourself up to more abusive ridicule from them.

Gravity

04-18-2005, 01:08 AM

PA has unfortunately suckered in a lot of Christian writers (I know; I'm one). Now, while freely admitting I'm not the brightest Crayola in the box, neither did I check my brain at the door when I became a man of faith. The truth of the matter is this: PA, especially when I signed up in August 2001, had one of the most slickly-worded, maze-like contracts I'd ever seen. Even my attorney thought it was fine (and bless his heart, he wasn't then nor is he now a contract lawyer, which I should have had). On top of that, their presence on the 'net was practically nil. They said "traditional", and I believed 'em. My bad. Bottom line, I was fooled, but then had the good sense to finally realize it. Too late by months, true, but that's by the way.

So to the board moderators here, may I be so bold as to make an open appeal to the PA lurkers? I can? Thanks. I'll be brief.

Ahem.

To my fellow Christians posting such inane "the Man upstairs has blessed us" crap on the PA boards: stop. Please stop. Please, re-engage the minds your Creator so graciously gave you, accept you've been snookered, and that by pros, and then move on. To do otherwise, to intimate that the Lord God is blessing the dream-killing efforts of the Stooges, simply makes Him look bad, the Stooges look worse, and yourselves... totally clueless. Thank you.

We now return to our regularly scheduled program.

John

Lisa Maliga

04-18-2005, 01:08 AM

Hello Folks,
NavigatorX provided a link to my press release several pages ago, but for you non link clickers, here it is...

PublishAmerica Encourages Author To Give Away Novel

Lisa Maliga, author of the Hollywood novel, North of Sunset, has been told by PublishAmerica to make her book available for download via free Adobe Acrobat Reader.

Los Angeles, CA ~ In an effort to be removed from her seven-year contract with the online-based publishing company, PublishAmerica, LLLP, author Lisa Maliga announced via a certified USPS letter that since she had not signed the Settlement Agreement and Release sent to her in March 2005, she would promote her novel online via eBook format. One of the reasons for not signing the settlement agreement involved a $5,000 non-disparagement clause. More information can be found at: http://www.lisamaliga.com/publishamericasettlement.htm (http://www.lisamaliga.com/publishamericasettlement.htm)

Grounds for seeking a reversion of her contract are due to the fact that all PublishAmerica books are not edited, not returnable by any bookstore, overpriced, and titles are unable to be reviewed by most magazines, newspapers, and legitimate online book review sites.

The unnamed Author Support Team replied via e-mail: “As we made clear when you signed our contract, we would like you to please use [e-mail address] as your means of contacting us. This way we can respond to your issues much more quickly and efficiently. As for your request, in the spirit of the conditions described in the amendment that you received, we hereby grant you permission to make your book available free of charge as you have requested.”

Lisa Maliga promptly wrote back that she had not signed the agreement, nor did she intend to. She simply wanted her novel’s rights returned to her. On April 14, 2005 another unsigned e-mail from the Author Support Team was received. “Sorry if we weren't clear. Again, as for your request, in the spirit of the conditions described in the amendment that you received, we hereby grant you permission to make your book available free of charge as you have requested.

No need to worry about the amendment. If you don't understand the wording, it doesn't matter really. We have granted you permission, so what you want to do is fine. This is just a courtesy, from your publisher to you.

Have a nice day!

Author Support Team”

Some of the mysterious employees do have names, such as Jessica Lewis, who signed for Ms. Maliga’s April 7, 2005 letter, Denise Pickett, signing for the February 24, 2005 letter, Janet Morrissey, general partner and signer of the Settlement Agreement Release, and Miranda Prather, Larry Clopper and Willem Meiners, the three publishing executives who run the Frederick, Maryland based company.

PublishAmerica has repeatedly ignored her request for the return of her book’s rights. Unable to be released from her contract, which was signed in July 2003, before much negative press concerning the fraudulent publishing company was available, Lisa Maliga searches for ways in which she can legally regain her novel’s full rights.

To learn more about Lisa Maliga’s situation, please visit Lisa’s Library of Writing at http://www.lisamaliga.com (http://www.lisamaliga.com/)
###

ResearchGuy

04-18-2005, 01:10 AM

... From another point of view, a company that releases 4,000 new titles a year has to be one of the biggest publishers in the country.
If they only print an average of under a dozen copies of each? By that measure, how big a 'publisher' is Kinko's? (I am guessing, but the average cannot be much more than a dozen, can it?)

--Ken

T42

04-18-2005, 01:13 AM

This has nothing to do with PA and everything to do with your book being listed in Ingram. Sending angry letters off to PA will only open yourself up to more abusive ridicule from them.With all do respect, it has everything to do with pa because they are the ones making my book available to the public and I no longer choose to have my book made available to the public.

robeiae

04-18-2005, 01:15 AM

If they only print an average of under a dozen copies of each? By that measure, how big a 'publisher' is Kinko's? (I am guessing, but the average cannot be much more than a dozen, can it?)

Kinko's doesn't release titles for sale so they are not a publisher, just a printer. PublishAmerica, in contrast, releases....hmmmm...okay maybe you're right.

Rob

bluwinteryfox

04-18-2005, 01:17 AM

3. For those of you sending me private notes and accusing me of loving women, let me clear something up - I DO!!!! BIG TIME!!!! And the day I don't I hope I'm colder than a popsicle.
Does this mean, what I think it means Mighty Pickler? That your sidekick will be a woman and not a man.

Here's the link so everyone can read the entries that are there, and then add your own. http://lindadroberts.tripod.com/id12.html

Memphis Ed

04-18-2005, 01:18 AM

ResearchGuy

04-18-2005, 01:19 AM

...I think that PA could very well serve a valuable purpose for people who have written a book and all they want is to see their book in print so they can sell it themselves to their relatives and friends and feel good about themselves...
A full-service print shop (look in your Yellow Pages) can do that much, perfect binding (or spiral binding) and all, with no contract, no 7-year purgatory for the copyright, and no mal-editing by spellchecker. The per-copy price would be higher, but probably not by nearly enough to outweigh the advantages of the copy shop version. All the author needs to do is to spend some time on layout and then pay a nerd to tidy it up and produce a pdf version to put on disk for the copy shop.

--Ken

ResearchGuy

04-18-2005, 01:25 AM

...I'm convinced that there are some good authors there who are never going to be fulfilled.....
I cringe at the near-miss that was had by the author of the manuscript I mentioned earlier today, by an author who spent years meticulously crafting a jewel. Because of the specific content of that manuscript, the spellcheck editing would have utterly garbled it. There are no guarantees, but having been saved from PA, it stands a chance for publication by a genuine, serious publisher and to gain recognition as a classic of its type. That author cannot be the only one who has genuine ability, has invested years of diligent work, and who was fooled (until clued in just in time, in this case) by the PA BS.

--Ken

bluwinteryfox

04-18-2005, 01:34 AM

It literally breaks my heart to read over at PA of the efforts to get their books in front of prospective buyers. That said, I have a question for the PA authors on this board: How long did it take for you to realize that the marketing efforts shared over there weren't going to work?
It didn't take me very long. I'd read where people were buying 50 or more copies of their book and telling everyone about all the money they'd make. I couldn't understand that. I thought they were nuts.

I created a website for my book, I shared links with several other PA authors. Did it do any good? I honestly don't know. I also made business cards and bookmarks. Did they work? Probably not. Although I did have several people tell me I should start my own business creating business cards and bookmarks.

SeanDSchaffer

04-18-2005, 01:36 AM

NancyMehl

04-18-2005, 01:43 AM

John,

Thank you. You took the words right out of my mouth. I actually followed another Christian writer to PA. I figured that if she would sign with them - they must be okay. I know my decision influenced at least one other person to go with them. I still feel guilty. Although, I do have to say that I met some people through PA who will always be close friends. I'm not sorry for that. I met you - and I'm so thrilled to know you. You're very special to me. But we have to be careful how we influence others. It can come back to bite us on the fanny!

Lisa,

Oh my goodness. You are officially one of my heroes! Wow! Good for you. You've got guts, girl! :Trophy: Go Lisa!!!!!

Nancy

SeanDSchaffer

04-18-2005, 01:45 AM

According to PA, there are 7 million hits a DAY on their board. Also, there are 11,000 HAPPY authors.

So why have only 20 posted on the "Praising PA" thread?

That's easy, Ed! A large majority of the 11,000 'Happy' Authors have been banned from the PA boards. They couldn't post on that thread even if they wanted to!

Memphis Ed

04-18-2005, 01:45 AM

A full-service print shop (look in your Yellow Pages) can do that much, perfect binding (or spiral binding) and all, with no contract, no 7-year purgatory for the copyright, and no mal-editing by spellchecker. The per-copy price would be higher, but probably not by nearly enough to outweigh the advantages of the copy shop version. All the author needs to do is to spend some time on layout and then pay a nerd to tidy it up and produce a pdf version to put on disk for the copy shop.

--Ken

Plus, the family and friends could get the book at a much lower cost, assuming that the author wanted to make a buck or two.

When I published my first book, I created a little publishing company. This was before POD and my partner and I had to order thousands of hard-back books. Big risk, big cost. Sold out two printings and then went dormant for awhile.

I began to get requests for the book, particular interest from one large company, and decided to reprint in paperback, which is currently how it is available. I order in the quantity I need for very small price per book, which gives me much wiggle room and profit.

My agent, who sold my second book, thinks this book is sellable and has it out now.

I have no angst or embarrassment in being self-published as it has been profitable for me. I did, however, meet an author at a cocktail party a couple of months before I got my agent and she sold my second book. When I told this author that I was self-published, she literally walked away from me disgusted. Following a quick breath and armpit review, I realized that it was due to my position on the publishing food chain.

I can empathize with how the PA author feels after that first trip to the bookstore.....

Dolan

04-18-2005, 01:50 AM

SeanDSchaffer

04-18-2005, 01:51 AM

Thanks, Jim, for your continued support. Also, to Jenna, Ed and others who realize that not all PA authors are "stipid" or deserving of their plight.
----------------

I canceled my event for today; and while trying to catch up on the posts this morning, come across the negative light on the authors trapped in PA's fraud contract.

It's one thing to clown around and kid about the naivety of the authors. However, to lump all of them together in one pot and call them ALL "stipid" is unfair. The people who post regularity on the PA boards represent a small percentage of PA authors.

Some PA authors will eventually get their rights back and go on to be successful at their craft -- perhaps even great at it -- let's try to remember there are some people who lurk and read our post who are hurt and reeling from the fraud and hurt of PA -- and need us to encourage them. Most of those, who knew what they were getting into, readily admit it on the PA boards. Just consider, please, those who did not. There are authors in this very forum who have fought back and have proven the theory that even "PA" had the opportunity to turn out a best seller.

Go easy on the authors please, there may be some sensitive ones lurking. Remember it is PA we are at war with, not the authors. I'm not talking about the rah, rah teams that help lure the unsuspecting. I'm speaking of the ones sitting quietly in the background watching, waiting, and hoping for the day that PA goes down and they are free.

Agreed, wholeheartedly. A lot of PA authors simply did not know not to trust PA's own FAQ's page, and therefore did not go to a separate site that was not affiliated with PA in any way for an unbiased opinion.

Gravity

04-18-2005, 01:53 AM

John,

. Although, I do have to say that I met some people through PA who will always be close friends. I'm not sorry for that. I met you - and I'm so thrilled to know you. You're very special to me.
Nancy

Awww...garsh...(rubbing foot in the dirt)...right back atcha, sis!

John (who doesn't take compliments well; too undeserving)

Sher2

04-18-2005, 02:04 AM

Oh no Sheri girl, is this one of those twice removed type cousins? The kind that the stooges will be inviting to the "sign our new contract" reunion. You know, the one where the whole famdamnly must keep them itty bitty mouths shut!
I'd first have to pick up and sign the agreement. There is no torture they could devise that would induce me to do that. Problem solved.;)

Sher2

04-18-2005, 02:08 AM

I'm exhausted from hopping the scotch with Sher2 and I now have a scab on my knee. She did not push me. Really.

I have a serious question for the experts. If I had a book with a real publisher and the book sold 148 copies in eight months and I sent them the following request, how would they respond?

Dear Real Publisher:

My book is not working out, at all. I want to rewrite the book, change the title and take the book in a different direction. I want to convert it from nonfiction historical to a nonfiction personal account. It means a complete change, not just new editing.

I have nothing against your company, I just want to create what I think is a better product for readers.

Will Real Publishing agree to terminate our contract?

Thanks
Poor Little Fool, me.
Dolan, you're some hopscotcher. And a real gentleman for letting me win. Sorry about that bad girl who shoved you and gave you the scab. I'd have pushed her down in the dirt but she was bigger than me. So, want to play jacks next?

Sorry, your letter won't wash with Real Publishing. They'll just tell you to go hop scotch up a rope and then dress you down for tone.

Sher2

04-18-2005, 02:12 AM

4. Something must be brewing on PA's private boards because an author is asking Infocenter for help there. We don't like posting anything from a private board here (for obvious reasons), but if someone knows what the deal is and wants to PM me, I'm all ears...

Somebody over there's having herself a gen-u-wine nervous breakdown. I'm about to do some Latin translating. :crazy:

SeanDSchaffer

04-18-2005, 02:12 AM

Now I am really mad! I just used your link to look up my book and it is also for sale on ebay. They are getting another letter because no where in my contract does it state that my book will be sold at auction houses or flea markets! I have a lot of previous customers from ebay from when I used to sale the tea itself and I do not want them buying this book unaware that I am not the one selling it! I am SO pi****!

Well, it looks like PA is changing a bit -- whether for the better or not I don't know, but there are 100 copies of my PA book available at the said website.

Very interesting, especially considering that PA and I are negotiating my release from my contract and getting my book back from them as all this is going on.

Very interesting, indeed.

Savannah Blue

04-18-2005, 02:31 AM

I am interested if one person on this forum has EVER purchased a book on e-bay that they had not heard of.

It literally breaks my heart to read over at PA of the efforts to get their books in front of prospective buyers. That said, I have a question for the PA authors on this board: How long did it take for you to realize that the marketing efforts shared over there weren't going to work? I can easily imagine a new author reading the suggestions of bookmarks, book signings, websites, and guestbooks and thinking "this could be fun and I'll make some money as well!" I imagine that was what Frank Weaver was thinking for some time (I still want to find him....).

How long was it before you realized that this isn't going to work?

I'm convinced that there are some good authors there who are never going to be fulfilled.....

Almost from day one as soon as I realized all the marketing and whatnot would be left up to me. I am not now, nor have I ever been inclined to be a salesperson. My job was to have been to write the book. Their job was to have been to sell it.

James D. Macdonald

04-18-2005, 02:33 AM

Will Real Publishing agree to terminate our contract?

That depends entirely on your reversion clause.

And is that 148 copies after the book's been out for a few years and sold 20,000 to start with, or is that 148 copies in its whole life? And what's your agent doing this whole time?

You might reasonably ask them to either resolicit the book or put it out of print. They might well be interested in the new version of your book. Remember that everything in publishing is negotiable, including your name and the date.

Meanwhile, while checking out A1 Books --

I checked up on a random book, an anthology with one of my stories in it.

This book came out in 1998 as a trade paperback, and was reprinted in 2003 in mass market paperback. Both editions are still in print.

The book is On Crusade: More Tales of the Knights Templar, edited by Katherine Kurtz, published by Aspect (an imprint of Time/Warner/AOL).

It's long since earned out; we get a royalty check (albiet a small one) twice a year. No agent was involved.

Anyway: A1 Marketing (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=4540616607&tc=photo) has the trade paperback for $14.20 + $4.95 S&H, for a total of $19.15. They claim 102 available.

Over at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0446673390/ref=nosim/madhousemanor), the same TPB is $15.99. They say 3 left in stock (more on the way). Free shipping for orders over $25. Amazon sales rank 717,534. BN rank 377,924.

Ingram has 2 in stock, 0 on order, 0 on backorder, 0 this week, 0 last week, 0 this year, 6 last year.

The mass market edition (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0446613177/ref=nosim/madhousemanor) is ($6.50 with a 10% discount to) $5.85. Amazon sales rank 195,751. BN rank 96,831.

Ingram has 18 in stock, 0 on order, 0 on backorder, 0 last week, 0 this week, 21 this year, 162 last year.

What can we tell from this? It's a book that's been out seven years. Totally backlist. It won't be on bookstore shelves outside of specialty stores, or areas with high fantasy readership.

Wherever A1 is getting its numbers, it's not from Ingram's on-hand listing, at least not in this case.

A major publisher is keeping the book in print and available. (For seven years, take that you PA apologists who say that books go out of print in six months or less!) None of the authors has been stumping around doing promotion. The editor doesn't even live in the USA. Yet it's still selling at rates above PA's best sellers with major author marketing behind 'em.

If anyone bought a copy from A1 they could even turn around and order it from Amazon and still make a profit (assuming they ordered another book at the same time to get the free shipping to click in). If they have an account with Ingram, they could make even more money just ordering as orders come in.

My guess is that A1 is a database of ISBNs, and they order books as necessary to fulfill orders.

Oh -- one more thing. A1 lists this book as non-fiction, which will certainly surprise the authors of the tales in this book.

Sher2

04-18-2005, 02:37 AM

Lisa Maliga, author of the Hollywood novel, North of Sunset, has been told by PublishAmerica to make her book available for download via free Adobe Acrobat Reader.
Keep the heat cranked up, Lisa -- heinies are getting singed.:Thumbs:

Lisa Y

04-18-2005, 02:39 AM

No bookstore, reviewer, etc specifically told me that PA was a vanity. I probably read it here. I actually remember thinking of them as a self-publisher I didn't need to pay going into it.

What I was shocked at was that no local store would stock my book (I didn't get a reason) and that an e-mail "magazine" reviewer refused to review it (after I had queried and sent the manuscript when prompted- she refused to give me a reason why). At the time I thought it was because my book "wasn't worthy". Maybe it wasn't, but I think the bookstore refusal had more to do with the non-return/lousy discount/pay up front issues.

M. Story

04-18-2005, 02:41 AM

I am so happy!!! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotesnoopy.gif Another well-known person from the PAMB has seen the light, and has said "sayonara" to PA!!! The cool thing is that this lady puts out a newsletter and I'm sure she has quite a mailing list where she could spread the message that "PA is unprofessional, unethical, and a publisher to be avoided.

PA lurkers, http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_28_119.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZZzebXXX) Like you, many of us here at AW thought PA was wonderful at one time, but were treated poorly and have legitimate complaints about them. We're not speaking against PA without good reasons. They are a poor excuse for a publisher, and they treat authors like dirt.

If you still feel they are so great, wait awhile until your book is actually out and you find the printing quality poor, you can't get your books on store shelves, or your royalty check is much less than what it should have been, and the list goes on and on...

Think about it??? Admit it! You were scammed! Many of us were! How can you promote a publisher who has hurt so many others??? I couldn't, and that's why I left. Now I want to spread the word to authors who haven't signed with them yet not to do it!!!

I say! Up with Authors!!!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cus/e_1_43.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZZzebXXX) Down With PubliSHAMErica!!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cus/e_1_44.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZZzebXXX)

Marlene's tirade has ended....sighhhh...(for now...)

astonwest

04-18-2005, 02:43 AM

Lisa Maliga, author of the Hollywood novel, North of Sunset, has been told by PublishAmerica to make her book available for download via free Adobe Acrobat Reader.

There are some other PA authors who have made their books available for free, without even being told to do so...

Sher2

04-18-2005, 02:44 AM

I am interested if one person on this forum has EVER purchased a book on e-bay that they had not heard of.

It literally breaks my heart to read over at PA of the efforts to get their books in front of prospective buyers. That said, I have a question for the PA authors on this board: How long did it take for you to realize that the marketing efforts shared over there weren't going to work? I can easily imagine a new author reading the suggestions of bookmarks, book signings, websites, and guestbooks and thinking "this could be fun and I'll make some money as well!" I imagine that was what Frank Weaver was thinking for some time (I still want to find him....).

How long was it before you realized that this isn't going to work?

I'm convinced that there are some good authors there who are never going to be fulfilled.....
The only reason I'd go to eBay to buy a book would be for something I'd been looking for and had been unable to find elsewhere. Naturally, I would have to have heard of it. I suppose it's conceivable that while looking up that book I might come across something else that caught my eye and buy it on impulse.

Marketing efforts? Never, in my case. I knew very shortly after signing the contract what I'd gotten myself into and knew none of that penny ante stuff was going to work. I just blew it off and started writing a new book.

Susan Gable

04-18-2005, 02:54 AM

With all do respect, it has everything to do with pa because they are the ones making my book available to the public and I no longer choose to have my book made available to the public.

Mem, hon, I'm sorry to say but until PA releases you from your contract, it's not your choice. :-( You signed away the rights for them to publish it for the 7 years of the contract. I know that they're possibly in breach of the contract (the intent if not the actual wording; I don't know, I leave that to the lawyers) but until it's terminated, I'm pretty sure it's no longer your choice.

Here, Mem, have another brownie. Probably not as good as yours, but at least you didn't have to bake it yourself. :)

The eBay thing - well, lots of us find our books for sale on eBay and in other various "used" book venues. None of us make any money off those sales. (Edited to add: We do, of course, make money off whoever bought the book in the first place. Just to make that clear.) This is why the Amazon "Buy It Used" button made so many authors mad - because it was one of the first times the used books were competing so directly with the new books. (Before that, you didn't have a bookstore that would sell both a new copy and a used one right next to each other.) The worst thing is finding used copies of your book available even before the release date. (That can happen very easily to H/S authors because the subscribers get their books at least a month before they hit the shelves. I'm not sure exactly how it happens with other publishers' books.)

Susan G.

SeanDSchaffer

04-18-2005, 03:03 AM

Mem, hon, I'm sorry to say but until PA releases you from your contract, it's not your choice. :-( You signed away the rights for them to publish it for the 7 years of the contract. I know that they're possibly in breach of the contract (the intent if not the actual wording; I don't know, I leave that to the lawyers) but until it's terminated, I'm pretty sure it's no longer your choice.

You know Mem, I'm pretty sure Susan's right on that. The contract many of us signed allows PA to 'make books available ... at [PA's] discretion.' I hate to say it -- I hate saying this with a passion -- but according to contract, PA is totally within its rights this time.

Frankly, I wish they weren't, but I'm pretty sure they are.

Dolan

04-18-2005, 03:08 AM

James D. Macdonald

04-18-2005, 03:15 AM

(Before that, you didn't have a bookstore that would sell both a new copy and a used one right next to each other.)

Actually, Powells Books, in their physical store had used copies shelved right beside the new copies.

The worst thing is finding used copies of your book available even before the release date. (That can happen very easily to H/S authors because the subscribers get their books at least a month before they hit the shelves. I'm not sure exactly how it happens with other publishers' books.)

From other publishers it's advance reading copies and review copies. But ...

This doesn't bother me much. Someone reads my book, and loves it, they'll go look for my other books. The number one reason someone buys a book is that they've read and enjoyed another book by the same author.

Anyway ... experience since Amazon started that program has shown that people will buy new copies in preference to used copies. Folks have actually tracked this.

There's always been a tiny grey market surrounding books -- I can tell you some stories about that -- but unless your total sales are very low, they're not going to be anything more than a negligible percentage of your totals.

Sher2

04-18-2005, 03:19 AM

...until PA releases you from your contract, it's not your choice. :-( You signed away the rights for them to publish it for the 7 years of the contract. I know that they're possibly in breach of the contract (the intent if not the actual wording; I don't know, I leave that to the lawyers) but until it's terminated, I'm pretty sure it's no longer your choice.

The eBay thing - well, lots of us find our books for sale on eBay and in other various "used" book venues. None of us make any money off those sales. (Edited to add: We do, of course, make money off whoever bought the book in the first place. Just to make that clear.) This is why the Amazon "Buy It Used" button made so many authors mad - because it was one of the first times the used books were competing so directly with the new books. (Before that, you didn't have a bookstore that would sell both a new copy and a used one right next to each other.) The worst thing is finding used copies of your book available even before the release date. (That can happen very easily to H/S authors because the subscribers get their books at least a month before they hit the shelves. I'm not sure exactly how it happens with other publishers' books.)

Thanks for the explanation, Susan. Viewed in that context, it makes sense.

Susan Gable

04-18-2005, 03:20 AM

Anyway ... experience since Amazon started that program has shown that people will buy new copies in preference to used copies. Folks have actually tracked this.
.

Well, hey, that's good to hear! :) I know I like new books better. But then, you can't even tell my books aren't new after I've read them a couple times, and that's how I like them. <G>

Unka Jim, do you have a source for that info? I know that the Ninc (Novelists, Inc.) people are doing some research into used books, and I'd like to pass it on to them that MAYBE things are not as bad as the may seem. :)

Susan G.

Patricia

04-18-2005, 03:23 AM

entire post #17199

John

A BIT DITTO

James D. Macdonald

04-18-2005, 03:24 AM

Unka Jim, do you have a source for that info? I know that the Ninc (Novelists, Inc.) people are doing some research into used books, and I'd like to pass it on to them that MAYBE things are not as bad as they may seem.

That was SFWA, a couple of years back.

Sher2

04-18-2005, 03:24 AM

Thanks, Ed. I'm looking for material that shows PA in a bad light in addition to what is available. A real publisher might negotiate a contract terminatation where as PA will not even address the issue.

I'm going to celebrate by grabbing my chance to order that new watch that is being offered to me through my e-mail every few minutes.

It is a genuine Rolex with a hidden compartment of viagra. The face is the picture of a teen porn queen doing unspectable acts with the second hand.
Good heavens, Dolan, you shouldn't oughta have sent the EMTs away when you took that blow to the head!

Definitely have your head clear before you start negotiating a contract release from PissyAnydayoftheweek Publishing. That's going to be some trip.;)

T42

04-18-2005, 03:25 AM

Here, Mem, have another brownie. Probably not as good as yours, but at least you didn't have to bake it yourself. :)

Susan G.Susan and Sean and everyone else, you may be right but it felt good writing to them again. I needed to have my little shout at them because I haven't had to write one in a week and I was having withdrawls. It's almost as good as the brownies Susan and thank you. I was so tired of baking.
They just stink and I still like to let them know that rather I'm wrong or not. Now mind you I am still having the lawyer look into that situation. I took a nap so maybe I can play better with others now :kiss:

lizziepants

04-18-2005, 03:44 AM

Liz, honey, It looks fairly simple to me.

<edited for brevity>

Ken.

P.S., you owe me a beer. hugs.

Yes, yes. My reaction was very odd, for me, anyway. I don't tend to spout off very often, my apologies. At last count there were 33 different websites one could purchase my silly freshman effort from, and I should have assumed eBay was not to be excluded.

So.

Yes to the beer! *winks*

Dolan

04-18-2005, 03:49 AM

Western book writers, do not let PublishAmerica even see your ms.

BTW, Did Shane die after he rode away from Joey? He was bleeding. This question has haunted me since the 1950s.

ResearchGuy

04-18-2005, 03:49 AM

... lots of us find our books for sale on eBay and in other various "used" book venues. None of us make any money off those sales. ...
I used to work for a state government policy shop that published its papers. We gave copies away and after about 1997 posted them in full (the public ones, not of course those done confidentially for our legislative/executive clients). Several years ago, a few folks began to notice some of our papers being offered for sale by outfits that had without our permission (without the State's permission) republished them. That was, of course, in violation of copyright. There was no monetary loss, but even as a matter of principle we could not sue because our attorney did not understand that state documents are protected by copyright and refused to allow a copyright notice or registration of copyright. Federal documents are in the public domain, with rare exceptions. But state and local government documents are as much under copyright as those you or I create. The attorney's view was vexing, but he could not be dissuaded by any amount of evidence from intellectual property attorneys, from the law itself, or even from a direct response given by personnel of the Copyright Office.

In any event, to get to the PA-pertinent point, it may not be beyond conceiving that some enterprising souls are republishing PA books, or printing pirate copies for sale. I doubt it, but it is possible. Not likely there is much money in it, but I would not have figured there would be any money in republishing and selling documents that my office gave away.

--Ken

mdmkay

04-18-2005, 03:54 AM

. I KNOW now what creeps they are. I guess I shouldn't have gone over to the PA boards because I was so heartbroken to see so many happy posts by people who really thought they were on their way to fulfilling their dream of becoming an author. There is something you have to understand, I'm a very pragmatic person, and I think that PA could very well serve a valuable purpose for people who have written a book and all they want is to see their book in print so they can sell it themselves to their relatives and friends and feel good about themselves (as long as they don't mind lining PA's pockets and not their own). The thing I have a BIG PROBLEM with is PA trying to pass themself off as a traditional publisher that will lead to a real step towards a carreer in writing (who in their right mind would ever use them as a reference, or even admit they had a book published by them?)

In my own defense, I was quoted out of context. I DO NOT SUPPORT PA IN ANYWAY.

Gravity

04-18-2005, 04:32 AM

Apropos of nothing, I now see I'm listed as a super member! Woot! Woot! (goes rather well with the avatar I picked, methinks...)

Okay, back to the thread!

John (who has never, ever in his five decades cruising this planet looked even remotely good in red spandex)

PS: As little Edna put it so eloquently in The Incredibles, "No capes!"

DreamWeaver

04-18-2005, 04:51 AM

The bottom line is that sometimes the truth hurts. Still, the prudent person would prefer to hear truth rather than fairy tales. Very true. And sometimes the thing that hurts most is the process of becoming a prudent person. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

Kris

Canada James

04-18-2005, 05:03 AM

All I can say is if an individual is buying and reselling then they owe a bunch of us some money. Either way they have been caught! (I'm sure that it is just the three stooges incognito)

The individual selling hasn't actually bought your books yet. Nor will they unless they have sales, and the cash in hand. The "number in stock" you are seeing is what the distributor, Ingram, is claiming to have. Does Ingram have that stock? No. They no longer stock POD books, and simply say they have 101 copies on hand so that the book doesn't appear out of print when a bookstore attempts to order it.

Mem, please, I assure you on this point you are wrong.

Canada James

lindylou45

04-18-2005, 05:07 AM

All I can say is if an individual is buying and reselling then they owe a bunch of us some money. Either way they have been caught! (I'm sure that it is just the three stooges incognito)

If I were to sell a book at a garage sale, I don't have to give the author part of the money I make from it. The author should have already made their royalty on the initial sale of the book with a reputable publisher.

PA isn't a reputable publisher so who knows if the author got their royalty or not. :Shrug:

T42

04-18-2005, 05:13 AM

Mem, please, I assure you on this point you are wrong.

Canada JamesJames, I have had several people say the same thing and I am sure that you are all right. I was just so livid to find another site that I have to fight to get my book off of. I don't want anyone putting my book out there. I know I don't have a choice in that at the moment but I am still going to fight it. I am fighting pa to get my book back and I will fight those who put it out there. I know that is what they do. It is a business to them but that still doesn't mean that I want my book being sold anywhere. I especially do not want it on ebay because I have customers that buy my tea and if they see my name might think that I am involved in selling it on ebay and would buy it. Many of them have waited for me to put a book out just so they can and now I have to get a hold of over 300 people to let them know that I don't want anyone buying this book! It just ads to something extra I have to do to combat pa and that gets me a little frazzled.

Canada James

04-18-2005, 05:15 AM

Wherever A1 is getting its numbers, it's not from Ingram's on-hand listing, at least not in this case.

They are getting their numbers from Ingram. Booksellers don't use Ingram's automated phone system to check stock, they use a direct internet link set up either by ipage or global. The information you get from the phone system, is not the same as what I get as a bookseller.
My book says 104 in stock on their internet info page. Phone Ingram, they tell you 3 on hand. Although very popular on the boards, that telephone number really isn't an accurate way of deducing what Ingram has and does not have in stock.

Canada James

T42

04-18-2005, 05:17 AM

If I were to sell a book at a garage sale, I don't have to give the author part of the money I make from it. The author should have already made their royalty on the initial sale of the book with a reputable publisher.

PA isn't a reputable publisher so who knows if the author got their royalty or not. :Shrug:I must of worded this wrong because everyone seems to think that I think the ebay person owes me money. I was talking about pa if they sold that amount of books to a individual to resale. But I have been set straight many times on who is selling them. I got it!:Thumbs:

kmm8n

04-18-2005, 05:26 AM

[QUOTE=lizziepants]This is how: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=4541001271&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW#DESCDATA (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=4541001271&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW#DESCDATA)

Mem, don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=4541841555&tc=photo (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=4541841555&tc=photo)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. sorry.:(

Edited:
Course...I just saw that others had already mentioned this!
Guess if I want to get my post count up, I need to stay on top of things.

DreamWeaver

04-18-2005, 05:30 AM

I read testimonials when I first was accepted and I remember reading a lot of them that said, "This is the first time I can remember my family being proud of me..." "This has to work because I quit my job and convinced my husband to let me work at home writing..." "This is the only choice I have ever made in my life that has turned out right..." "I have a friend that invested towards 500 books and this way we can both make money and I would have never had this opportunity somewhere else...."

This is so sad I felt like crying, and I don't even know these folks. The concept of kharmic retribution seems so fitting for the people who run PA, but I can't begin to imagine what next life would result from causing this much angst and heartache.http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonidea.gifJust a sec...it's coming in clearer...reborn as a sponge, happily filtering sewer water off the California coast...harvested...sold to prison system...finally worn to shreds being used in Folsom Prison community showers.http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonsscared.gif

No, not bad enough. Oh well.

Kris

lindylou45

04-18-2005, 05:36 AM

I am interested if one person on this forum has EVER purchased a book on e-bay that they had not heard of.

I've never purchased anything on e-bay.

How long was it before you realized that this isn't going to work?

It took me about three months to get up the nerve to walk into a bookstore and try to get them to stock my book. As soon as I was told by the manager that PA is vanity and doesn't take returns I knew nothing I did would make a difference. So, I guess the short answer is three months.

I never bought into the bookmarks, book plates, posters, etc. As a literary consumer, a bookmark/bookplate is the last thing I'm looking for. I certainly wouldn't accept one in place of the book itself.

James D. Macdonald

04-18-2005, 05:45 AM

I never bought into the bookmarks, book plates, posters, etc. As a literary consumer, a bookmark/bookplate is the last thing I'm looking for. I certainly wouldn't accept one in place of the book itself.

When was the last time you bought a book because of a bookmark or book plate? When was the last time anyone you know bought a book because of a bookmark or book plate?

What makes you think anyone else will buy your books because of your bookmarks and book plates?

Kate Nepveu

04-18-2005, 05:49 AM

From way back on post 16934 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=163022#post163022): “You are, unfortunately, an unknown author who has written a trilogy…because Harry Potter has hit the circuit, we are only dealing with ‘known authors’ at this time. Please make the corrections we have suggested and try re-submitting in 4 or 5 years…ride the Potter wave out.”This just strikes me as strange. I know a new author who's just sold a YA trilogy to a division of Simon & Schuster--if anything, I would think that Harry Potter would open up the market to longer works.

DaveKuzminski

04-18-2005, 05:52 AM

The way I see it, if PA is selling books to A-1 or any other outlet, then they have to account for royalties due the authors regardless of whether A-1 manages to sell what they bought. So, if you see something like that, then make a note of the time, URL, number of copies claimed available, and don't lose the information because PA's judgment day is coming. Even if you don't have an attorney or accountant, another PA writer will and might need your additional information to prove his case.

When it comes to contacting PA, you might take a hint from how some corporations and government agencies do it. Release the news or send the notice just before a holiday or weekend so that the other side can't react to it for several days. Also, emails just before favorite programs can be just as devious. I understand Meiners likes reruns of Hogan's Heroes. He likes to fashion himself after Colonel Klink. Miranda likes My Mother the Car... oops, that was Melanie Mills. Sorry. Miranda likes that old western where the drummed out officer carried around his broken sword. Larry, of course, likes the Gong Show reruns and that commercial with the guy who says, "No" to everything. Anyway, you can probably look up the times on the Internet for when those show in Maryland.

In the meantime, talk to your old friends on the PA board. Ask them not to recommend PA to other writers if there is even the slightest doubt in their minds about PA. Ask them not to purchase their own books if only for the financial well-being of their own families and the opportunity to reduce any future embarrassment they might feel. Ask them to join us. They're always welcome here.

M. Story

04-18-2005, 06:00 AM

Hey, MEM, check this out!

http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=1294597193&domain_id=1856&meta_id=1

Marlene

Canada James

04-18-2005, 06:01 AM

The way I see it, if PA is selling books to A-1 or any other outlet, then they have to account for royalties due the authors regardless of whether A-1 manages to sell what they bought.

OMG!! I don't know in what other way to say this...

A1 has bought 0 copies of any PA book regardless how many they claim to have on hand.

Please see my past posts as to why they claim to have 101 copies of all 11,000 PA books.

Canada James

DreamWeaver

04-18-2005, 06:10 AM

Hey, MEM, check this out!

http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=1294597193&domain_id=1856&meta_id=1

Interestingly, the publisher is listed as Lightning Source, Inc. rather than PublishAmerica. Should we read anything into that?

Kris

James D. Macdonald

04-18-2005, 06:10 AM

From way back on post 16934 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=163022#post163022): This just strikes me as strange. I know a new author who's just sold a YA trilogy to a division of Simon & Schuster--if anything, I would think that Harry Potter would open up the market to longer works.

Thanks for bringing that back up, Kate. It struck me as strange too at the time.

Had an agent. Got into ten of the biggest publishing houses in the world. They sent me two pages of format corrections to make, change chapter one with chapter two, edit suggestions...actually used excerpts from my book, Gift of the Ancient Grove, to demonstrate how they would like to see it written, praised my character development and imagery…then ended the letters with… “You are, unfortunately, an unknown author who has written a trilogy…because Harry Potter has hit the circuit, we are only dealing with ‘known authors’ at this time. Please make the corrections we have suggested and try re-submitting in 4 or 5 years…ride the Potter wave out.”

Here's my thought: The "they" in the second sentence ("They sent me two pages of format corrections to make...") is unclear. Is it referring to the agent, or to one or more of the publishers?

“You are, unfortunately, an unknown author who has written a trilogy…because Harry Potter has hit the circuit, we are only dealing with ‘known authors’ at this time. Please make the corrections we have suggested and try re-submitting in 4 or 5 years…ride the Potter wave out.”

That strikes me as a bit off-the-wall. The agent should, at that point, say "Your loss," and hit the next publisher on his list. A book that's publishable by one is publishable by many. Harry Potter has opened the market to YA fantasy, not closed it down. (The Lord of the Rings created a genre that other books rushed to fill. Tom Clancy did the same with technothrillers. Best sellers suck other, similar books along in their wake, making more marginal books salable, not the other way around.)

What I'd really, really like to hear is who was this agent?

If the author would like to correspond with me privately, I'd love to hear.

DaveKuzminski

04-18-2005, 06:15 AM

OMG!! I don't know in what other way to say this...

Canada James

I said "if".

James D. Macdonald

04-18-2005, 06:16 AM

Interestingly, the publisher is listed as Lightning Source, Inc. rather than PublishAmerica. Should we read anything into that?

Those aren't real printed books. They're ISBNs in a database. A shadow of a ghost of a potential book. There isn't a warehouse in New Jersey with a hundred copies of bought-and-paid-for books with royalties due. If someone, somewhere, ever orders one of those books from one of those dealers, on the day the check clears they'll turn around and order a copy from the printer. Until then it's nothing. The trees of North America are still safe.

M. Story

04-18-2005, 06:21 AM

Please see my past posts as to why they claim to have 101 copies of all 11,000 PA books. Canada James

I did a little research on A1Books. They're owned by Fountainhead, Inc., mailing address is in Netcong, NJ; all items sold are non-returnable & non-refundable. They sell to the US & UK. They do not handle customer service by phone, but only via the internet. Orders take 1-3 business days to process; 4-14 business days to ship. That would make it easy for them to sell POD books and have them printed within that time frame.

There is a Fountainhead Entertainment Group, which handles videos, books, etc. This company may be affiliated with that one, which is located in CA.

This may be worthless info, but NJ is not all that far from MD, and I was wondering if anyone connected with PA might also be affiliated with that company. I was not able to find out who the actual owners were, but if I had more time, I'd check.

AnneMarble

04-18-2005, 06:23 AM

I am interested if one person on this forum has EVER purchased a book on e-bay that they had not heard of.

It hasn't happened yet. It might happen if I were searching for something else and found an obscure book on a topic I was interested in listed. But I'm not expecting too many countertenor biographies to show up on eBay.
:roll:

About the only times I even look at an auction for a book I've never heard of is when I hear of a writer doing something weird, like trying to auction the rights to her novel on eBay. Then I'll look just so I can report back to others about how kooky the auction is. :) Or when someone I know is a serious book collector mentions an interesting auction -- and those are usually 1) books by dead people and 2) beyond my budget anyway.

DreamWeaver

04-18-2005, 06:36 AM

The trees of North America are still safe.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Should we read anything like "this seller is trying to avoid listing this as a PA book" into the action of the seller choosing to list the publisher as Lightning Source rather than PA?

Kris

James D. Macdonald

04-18-2005, 06:39 AM

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Should we read anything like "this seller is trying to avoid listing this as a PA book" into the action of the seller choosing to list the publisher as Lightning Source rather than PA?

Nah. That's how PA books (and the books from many other POD publishers) show up in some databases. PA isn't that important that people will try to disguise them on the off chance that a book will sell better that way.

DreamWeaver

04-18-2005, 06:41 AM

PA isn't that important that people will try to disguise them on the off chance that a book will sell better that way.

Oh. Too bad ;).

Thanks!
Kris

T42

04-18-2005, 06:42 AM

I did a little research on A1Books. They're owned by Fountainhead, Inc., mailing address is in Netcong, NJ; all items sold are non-returnable & non-refundable. They sell to the US & UK. They do not handle customer service by phone, but only via the internet. Orders take 1-3 business days to process; 4-14 business days to ship. That would make it easy for them to sell POD books and have them printed within that time frame.

There is a Fountainhead Entertainment Group, which handles videos, books, etc. This company may be affiliated with that one, which is located in CA.

This may be worthless info, but NJ is not all that far from MD, and I was wondering if anyone connected with PA might also be affiliated with that company. I was not able to find out who the actual owners were, but if I had more time, I'd check.Who wants to make a bet that all the negatives they have are related to PA books? 891 to be exact and here are just a few of them.
Don't sell what you don't have! My $ was refunded but what a waste of time.

PAID W/PAYPAL OVER MONTH AGO, HAVE NOT RECEIVED ITEM. No response to 3 emails

Horrible! Paid 2 months ago & no delivery. Auto non-response to my emails.

slow and unhelpful. wouldn't use them again

Cover Ripped and Torn! NOT NEW - NO RESPONSE TO EMAILS

T42

04-18-2005, 06:44 AM

Interestingly, the publisher is listed as Lightning Source, Inc. rather than PublishAmerica. Should we read anything into that?

KrisThat is interesting!

lindylou45

04-18-2005, 06:58 AM

This may be worthless info, but NJ is not all that far from MD, and I was wondering if anyone connected with PA might also be affiliated with that company. I was not able to find out who the actual owners were, but if I had more time, I'd check.

I doubt very highly that A1 books are affiliated with PA other than being an online source to submit the books to, as CJ has stated repeatedly.

Memphis Ed

04-18-2005, 07:00 AM

When was the last time you bought a book because of a bookmark or book plate? When was the last time anyone you know bought a book because of a bookmark or book plate?

What makes you think anyone else will buy your books because of your bookmarks and book plates?

Jim-

Never...but it makes nice fodder for a list of things to do to sell your books for the uninformed. On the list of "Twenty Ways to Promote Your Book", it would fall between having a book signing at a Holiday Inn and getting 200 authors to publish a catalog. Number one would probably be asking for 100 of your closest friends and family contact information.

My publisher has never asked for anything like that, although when I sold life insurance for a while at age 21 I remember getting pumped for that info.

Speaking of which, if my company had 11,000 happy customers, I'd be selling insurance, credit cards, home mortgages, PCs, and everything else you could think of. Last count, 24 of these happy campers had posted on the "Praising PA" thread over there.

And speaking of happy campers, I STILL want to know "wha hoppened" to the campout?

T42

04-18-2005, 07:04 AM

I think it is very interesting that this is Lightning Source . The place that pa uses for printing?
These negatives are also very interesting because if this is just a legit business then they may get aggravated with pa too if they are the cause for negative publicity. People pay attention to the negative post before they buy most of the time.
Here are a few more and this sounds like pa. Not getting books to people in time for book signings, etc.
Money refunded through PayPal; no book after a month
Listed & still listing item for sale when they really don't have it in stock.

Don't understand this, why sale if you don't have product, No refund sent

Bad Deal. They said they "ran out" of book, yet they still list it for sale.

Don't have the books in stock like auction says. Bad seller
Disapointed the book is out of stock, yet it list 67 in stock currently

Memphis Ed

04-18-2005, 07:09 AM

...Jean Marie is lighting them up again on the "Praise PA" thread.

You're making great points, gal. Bring it over here.....

Ed Williams

04-18-2005, 07:12 AM

And speaking of happy campers, I STILL want to know "wha hoppened" to the campout?...I think it went the way of the next big multi-author Holiday Inn booksigning extravaganza, the PA/New York Times partnership, and the Edsel (cute pun on our names, huh)?

Know what's telling about the state of PA these days? As evidenced by the above, they aren't doing anything. No one is rallying the troups, no events are being scheduled, most of the bulletin board postings are inane or just simple infighting between the troups. If you think about it, some of the most respected PA advocates are gone and there seem to be no new ones cropping up. I think, frankly, that the preponderance of evidence out there is so overwhelmingly against PA that the authors know that it's a hopeless situation. More than hopeless. Want to know how hopeless? Okay - I have no doubt that a resubmission of "Atlanta Nights" would result in another PA book contract offer. Hell, Uncle Jim, you might get a two or three book deal out of them, if you play your cards right!

DreamWeaver

04-18-2005, 07:13 AM

...this is so frustrating. After all this talk about the importance of editing, of making sure things are right before they're published, of how remiss PA is in their lack of editing, and in their reliance on spelling and grammar checking software...

I just finished sending an email to a commercial, paid-subscription educational site requesting they correct their misquote of a fairly famous Shakespearean line. This is a website which says all its articles are written by highly qualified scholars. Not only did they misquote the line, but their detailed explanation of it repeated the misquote. Twice. Arrrrgggghhhh!!!!!

For anyone who has stuck with this OT rant and is curious, they fixed the grammar in *This was the most unkindest cut of all*. I don't know if they found their version superior to Shakespeare's original, or if they ran it through a grammar checker that pointed out the double superlative, but I 'd say theirs was the unkindest cut.

Kris
Me defending Shakespeare is like a gnat defending a lion, but I feel better anyway :).

akaa1a

04-18-2005, 07:22 AM

A1 Books and A1 Books.com are listed on the NJ BBB.

Not members of BBB and requests for further info have not been sent in by them.

Memphis Ed

04-18-2005, 07:25 AM

Know what's telling about the state of PA these days? As evidenced by the above, they aren't doing anything. No one is rallying the troups, no events are being scheduled, most of the bulletin board postings are inane or just simple infighting between the troups. If you think about it, some of the most respected PA advocates are gone and there seem to be no new ones cropping up.

And this is beginning to affect my lifestyle. In the past, I was able to end the day with a cocktail or glass of wine, relax after writing or researching for the evening, and go to the PA board and read about the bashers, campout, engagements, and death of authors. It was Desperate Housewives every night with no commercial interuptions.

Now they're gathering around the campfire and singing Kumbaya. Where is Mr. Pratt when we need him? Crab Cakes has left the building, the gal in the underwear is history, Shemp is toast, KAS is banned; Jean Marie is the hope of the future for any interesting fireworks for the time being.

Ed, I agree. This is the time for Jim to step in with the "Atlanta Nights" trilogy and set the whole place on fire. I think a collaboration with Ron Mexico could go a long way here....he'd be great on the 200 authors list.

Gravity

04-18-2005, 07:41 AM

...Jean Marie is lighting them up again on the "Praise PA" thread.

You're making great points, gal. Bring it over here.....

I think Ms. Jean Marie is about this close (putting my thumb and forefinger a sixteenth of an inch apart) to getting herself banned. Heck-o-pete, over a year ago they banned me, and for a lot less inflammatory talk.

When that happens, does anyone have her email addy, to direct her here? Tell her the MASH choppers will be warmed up, waiting to transport her, and the finest doctors are on call to see her through....

John

MMo

04-18-2005, 07:43 AM

I don't remember seeing mention of this on AW:
http://forums.go.com/abcnews/GMA/thread?threadID=134677

PublishAmerica's Author Mill: Perversion of Capitalism
http://forums.go.com/images/blank.gif Posted: Mar 17, 2005 05:31 PM
http://forums.go.com/images/re-16x19.gifreply (http://forums.go.com/abcnews/GMA/post?reply=true&threadID=134677&messageID=1135001)

(Snipped)
To all Authors Looking for a publisher:

Do not submit your work to PublishAmerica. PublishAmerica, which boasts that it is the largest publisher on earth, now has over 10,000 authors and over 11,000 thousand titles. This sounds impressive until you find out that they have only a handful of employees and are working out of tiny building in Frederick, Maryland. You see, Publish is a classic example of a scam.

And snipped again -- Interesting thread.

Mo

Ed Williams

04-18-2005, 07:47 AM

Memphis Ed

04-18-2005, 07:48 AM

I think Ms. Jean Marie is about this close (putting my thumb and forefinger a sixteenth of an inch apart) to getting herself banned.
John

John-

I agree...she's close to getting the plug pulled. My guess is that her last post will be toast by 8:00 AM tomorrow. I hope, like you, that someone is keeping her invitation over here alive. She'd be a good addition.

BTW, that's great news about Jamie Farr and Hollywood Squares, huh?

Memphis Ed

04-18-2005, 08:07 AM

And this is beginning to affect my lifestyle. In the past, I was able to end the day with a cocktail or glass of wine, relax after writing or researching for the evening, and go to the PA board and read about the bashers, campout, engagements, and death of authors. It was Desperate Housewives every night with no commercial interuptions.

Now they're gathering around the campfire and singing Kumbaya. Where is Mr. Pratt when we need him? Crab Cakes has left the building, the gal in the underwear is history, Shemp is toast, KAS is banned; Jean Marie is the hope of the future for any interesting fireworks for the time being.

I may have spoken too quickly...the last few posts on the "Praising PA" thread have had some interesting comments from Jean Marie and a former poster here. Looks like the pablum over there may get a little spicey after all.

Gravity

04-18-2005, 08:18 AM

I may have spoken too quickly...the last few posts on the "Praising PA" thread have had some interesting comments from Jean Marie and a former poster here. Looks like the pablum over there may get a little spicey after all.

The "former poster" who started all the rhubarb few days back? Yowza. "Spicy" may be too tame a word. That "former poster" has the attitude and demeanor of a bratty teenager; when I heard she was forty, I couldn't believe it. But I feel Ms. Jean Marie can probably dish it right back at her.

This may prove entertaining...

John

lizziepants

04-18-2005, 08:19 AM

Now they're gathering around the campfire and singing Kumbaya. Where is Mr. Pratt when we need him? Crab Cakes has left the building, the gal in the underwear is history, Shemp is toast, KAS is banned; Jean Marie is the hope of the future for any interesting fireworks for the time being.

Platts?!! You mean, Platts aka Randy Dyck? Oh believe me, that sarcastic sod is still slouching about over there. Everytime I try and knock some sense into those people on one of the boards, he perks up and offers his latest diatribe on how boring/dim he believes I am. I'm honestly surprised he isn't here. He's about as anti-everything as is possible.

Crab Cakes -- brilliant, but I assume his honeymoon is over.

The gal in the underwear? Who is this? Me? *grins*

KAS was banned? What for!

Jean Marie -- she's really wisened up a lot this past year, I wonder if she knows about AW. Her days on the PAMB are definitely numbered, wonder -- hmm.. I'm going to email her and invite her over personally.

G'night guys, I've had enough for the day.

PA -- We treat our authors the old fashioned way, we screw them!

Julian Black

04-18-2005, 08:26 AM

I think Ms. Jean Marie is about this close (putting my thumb and forefinger a sixteenth of an inch apart) to getting herself banned. Heck-o-pete, over a year ago they banned me, and for a lot less inflammatory talk.

When that happens, does anyone have her email addy, to direct her here? Tell her the MASH choppers will be warmed up, waiting to transport her, and the finest doctors are on call to see her through....

JohnFrom what I've seen, she's completely aware of AW's existence. When she finally gets banned, I don't imagine it will be too long before she strides in here, unassisted...

lindylou45

04-18-2005, 08:34 AM

I don't remember seeing mention of this on AW:
http://forums.go.com/abcnews/GMA/thread?threadID=134677

I have the initial post on my site under News Articles. I know it's not actually an article, but it does come from a media source's website.

tab

04-18-2005, 08:36 AM

Has anyone ever seen "Sideways?" It just seems so timely and pertinent to this thread.:)

lindylou45

04-18-2005, 08:41 AM

Platts?!! You mean, Platts aka Randy Dyck? Oh believe me, that sarcastic sod is still slouching about over there. Everytime I try and knock some sense into those people on one of the boards, he perks up and offers his latest diatribe on how boring/dim he believes I am. I'm honestly surprised he isn't here. He's about as anti-everything as is possible.

Lizziepants,

I'm sorry that Mr. Platts has treated you badly, but you gotta admit, some of his posts are hilarious! He's definitely got his own opinions and doesn't really care if people agree with him or not. I love the guy!

MMo

04-18-2005, 09:00 AM

I have the initial post on my site under News Articles. I know it's not actually an article, but it does come from a media source's website.

Good http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteThumbs.gif

Mo

lizziepants

04-18-2005, 09:18 AM

LindaLinda,

No way, I LOVE Platts. He's a god as far as I'm concerned. He's hilarious, he's witty, he's .. sly and well-spoken, just that -- often times he and I clash. He hates the way I type, because I type like I talk, because I can get around.. 140 wpm. I use --'s and ..'s and ,'s all the time. And he thinks I'm a wuss which perhaps, I am. I don't know. He's a treasure.

James D. Macdonald

04-18-2005, 09:27 AM

I don't imagine it will be too long before she strides in here, unassisted...

For all anyone knows she's already posting here.

Renee

04-18-2005, 09:33 AM

If you call being cruel, not honest to people funny, then uh yeah I guess Plattsy would be funny. NOT!

lizziepants

04-18-2005, 09:44 AM

If you call being cruel, not honest to people funny, then uh yeah I guess Plattsy would be funny. NOT!

Ehh, he was always really horrible to you, Renee. I guess what I should have said was -- he had an original voice on the PAMB -- other than the blind masses with their nod and smile/hope and pray attitudes. He's unique.

In fact -- he was a real asshole to you. He's famous for that, his ability to rile people up, he's sucked me in several times.

Imagine what a tirade he'd put on to one of the Stooges if it struck him to do so.

Julian Black

04-18-2005, 10:53 AM

Well, if you want to be completely technically accurate about it, I myself started out self-published. Back when I was 20 or so, I self-published a song book. Me, a Xerox machine, and a saddle stapler. Ran off fifty, sold 'em for a buck apiece. So I'm a self-published author who's now a best seller. Self-publishing must really work!Stephen King, in On Writing, describes how as a teenager he sold copies of one of his stories for a quarter apiece. So I guess he started out self-published, too!

[snipped list of formerly self-pubbed authors]...None of those authors started with a vanity press. One of them is still self-publishing.Michael Baisden, who still self-publishes, also hosts a syndicated talk-radio show and does motivational seminars, so he has built-in means to promote and sell his books. He's a perfect example of the kind of author for whom self-publishing is a viable, perhaps even preferable, option.

Canada James

04-18-2005, 12:08 PM

I said "if".

It was this part I was referencing:

So, if you see something like that, then make a note of the time, URL, number of copies claimed available, and don't lose the information because PA's judgement day is coming. Even if you don't have an attorney or accountant, another PA writer will and might need your additional information to prove his case.

None of that will matter, and it may even hurt your case. Bringing this information into the fight will only make it look like you don't know what you are talking about (as it can be easily disproved against you) and will bring everything you say into question.

Stick to the provable facts. Stay away from "but what if they were"'s.
There's enough truth out there.

Canada James

Ken Schneider

04-18-2005, 03:33 PM

Liz, Jean Marie knows her way here. Kas is right here honey, smile.

He was banned for being honest about a post were he hurt Jenna's feelings wrongly so. He corrected that wrong, and posted a link to this site. Plenty more. Scammed P.A. into giving him another password under a different name, different title, same isbn. Went on the Private board as Chuck, an Irishman. Ripped Platt's ass, and got banned again as intended.

I've noticed that all the old guard aren't posting, just the new sign ups.

I have hope that many are getting the word, and moving on.
Kas

Diana Hignutt

04-18-2005, 04:04 PM

This morning I received an email from a PA author. He had read my contribution in The Published Authors Guide to Book Promotion and wanted my advice on marketing his soon to be published PA book. I hated writing what I did. I tried to be gentle. Some days, I hate being me. Here's what I wrote (I would appreciate any advice anyone cares to offer for the next time this comes up):

Dear Mr. XXXXZX:

It feels like I wrote that essay for the Published Authors guide a lifetime ago. Much has changed since I wrote it, most notably my relationship with PublishAmerica. I have come to the conclusion that under PA's business plan, it is very difficult to market a PA book. I got a lawyer and got my rights back for my novel. Now, it is not my intention to deflate your dreams or expectations, and perhaps you will find luck where I found only difficulty. BTW, I love your title.

To learn more about marketing books, here is a website that may offer some help:

www.absolutewrite.com (mip://023501f8/www.absolutewrite.com)

To learn more about the ways PublishAmerica operates (and it may not be something you're ready to hear):

www.absolutewrite.com/forums (mip://023501f8/www.absolutewrite.com/forums)

I wish you much luck and success. Sorry, I can't be of more help at this time.

Best Regards,

Diana Hignutt
*****
That was one of the hardest things to write that I have encountered. I am still haunted by my PA past--perhaps I shall never escape it. Bummed, I am.

diana

Jeff

04-18-2005, 04:24 PM

That was one of the hardest things to write that I have encountered. I am still haunted by my PA past--perhaps I shall never escape it. Bummed, I am.

That is one way to look at it, Diana, and I am sorry that it hurts as much as it does.

But too, you might look at it from the perspective that you have a chance to help some of these people -- even if they have already signed with PA -- by directing them to places like AW, by educating them in the realities of publishing, and by being able to be as sensitive and gentle as you were in your example when you do so. It beats being slapped in the face by the truth when they discover it themselves.

Keep your chin up. Don't take it so hard. You have a chance to do good, and to let others profit from the bad experience that you've had.

Moondancer

04-18-2005, 04:35 PM

Who wants to make a bet that all the negatives they have are related to PA books? 891 to be exact and here are just a few of them.

Don't sell what you don't have! My $ was refunded but what a waste of time.

PAID W/PAYPAL OVER MONTH AGO, HAVE NOT RECEIVED ITEM. No response to 3 emails

Horrible! Paid 2 months ago & no delivery. Auto non-response to my emails.

slow and unhelpful. wouldn't use them again

Cover Ripped and Torn! NOT NEW - NO RESPONSE TO EMAILS

Hmmm... sounds like the same kinds of complaints that you hear frequently from family members, authors setting up book signings, etc who have ordered or tried to order directly from P A. If in fact all those complaints are due to P A books, it's a pretty sure bet that it's business as usual at the publisher end.

Ed Williams

04-18-2005, 04:35 PM

...that land of enlightenment and understanding, we find the following morsels:

A thread on yet more bookstore rejections is right here:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8849.htm

I think this is the part about being a PA author that would tear at me the worst - these poor people think that bookstores are going to welcome them, and then they get the exact opposite reaction. Talk about being disallusioned - Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem ought to be really proud of themselves, but we all know they have the morals of Brazilian wharf rats.

Re Mr. Platts, he is personally one of my favorite PA posters. He says anything, and is quite abrasive most of the time, which oftens ends up being humorous. I can see where he could really get on someone's nerves, and if you were the target of one of his diatribes it definitely wouldn't be much fun at all.

Some choice quotes in the "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" category - I'll be interested to see what these same people say six months from now:

(Re J. K. Rowling): I believe that any one of us has this same capability, provided we press forward as well and, with diligence sprinkled with hope, consistenly market our books.To tell someone else that they MUST get on a book shelf to achieve success is UNTRUE.
In fact, my parents have a very large motor home and we plan to hit the road this summer going as far as we can. It can be done without an agent, it is called believing in yourself and making it happen!I believe that we must "network" with other people(celebrities...polical leaders...TV personalities...etc.) to attain national attention and then and only then, will the book stores want to put our books on their shelves...I believe it all comes down to not what you know but who you know. I guess we can all dream though. :)I guess wanting something so badly can blind people to the obvious, there seems to be a real fine line between dreaming and delusion...

And Diana, you did the right thing and have nothing to feel bad about. Telling this person the truth upfront could save them a whole lot worse problems in the long run. The truth ain't always pretty, but it is a damn sight better than the alternative. You're a winner, and have proven it yet again.

DaveKuzminski

04-18-2005, 04:47 PM

Nothing like carrying your own firewood around in your mobile home for those campground stopovers since I doubt that they'll find many buyers.

DaveKuzminski

04-18-2005, 04:53 PM

Stick to the provable facts. Stay away from "but what if they were"'s.

Well, now, those are facts. Certainly, those need proving, but that's what you use the right of discovery for in the first place. You check into their records to determine if there's any connection. Then if there is, you use that as further evidence. If there isn't, then you discard it since you'll know at that point that it has no bearing.

However, if you don't copy it down to begin with, just how do you or your attorney expect to research it later in discovery? I stand by my statement.

T42

04-18-2005, 05:00 PM

...she is simply telling the truth to everyone over there, unfortunately, there's a severe price to be paid at PA for uttering the truth. If Jean lasts another week on the PA boards I'll be surprised, and, if that is the case, we have a spot all warmed up for you over here whenever the time is right...Jean Marie will be a great asset. The week I was allowed on the boards and so many people were bashing me for asking questions about pa, I had seen the picture of her and her dog and I wrote a quick note saying her dog was beautiful and I noticed after that she would try to defend me as much as possible. Thank God for her, I didn't last long:Shrug:

Sher2

04-18-2005, 05:01 PM

That was one of the hardest things to write that I have encountered. I am still haunted by my PA past--perhaps I shall never escape it. Bummed, I am.

Try not to feel so bummed, Diana. You're being too hard on yourself. Morally, you had to do it. :Thumbs:

Sher2

04-18-2005, 05:05 PM

I think this is the part about being a PA author that would tear at me the worst - these poor people think that bookstores are going to welcome them, and then they get the exact opposite reaction. Talk about being disallusioned - Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem ought to be really proud of themselves, but we all know they have the morals of Brazilian wharf rats.

Re Mr. Platts, he is personally one of my favorite PA posters. He says anything, and is quite abrasive most of the time, which oftens ends up being humorous. I can see where he could really get on someone's nerves, and if you were the target of one of his diatribes it definitely wouldn't be much fun at all.

Some choice quotes in the "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" category - I'll be interested to see what these same people say six months from now:

Ed, I think you just maligned Brazil. Maybe wharf rats, too.;)

The quotes. Dear me. This is about the third crop of shiny optimism I've seen, and it's always just sad, sad, sad to see, knowing what's going to happen a few months down the road.

T42

04-18-2005, 05:10 PM

Try not to feel so bummed, Diana. You're being too hard on yourself. Morally, you had to do it. :Thumbs:Little Missy, your up bright and early. I just read the letter Diana had to write and I think it is a great letter. I'm sure it will make this person very curious about what is going on and he may share his info with others and get another fire burning. All it took was "one" thing to make me question them and POOF! I was banned from Pod land! I think I might have been the shortest running "post person" on the pa threads! Good Lord it's hard to come up with the proper words this early in the morning. I have got to stop hanging around with George so much. Him and I both like to make up our own words you know?:idea:

Sher2

04-18-2005, 05:12 PM

Little Missy, your up bright and early. I just read the letter Diana had to write and I think it is a great letter. I'm sure it will make this person very curious about what is going on and he may share his info with others and get another fire burning. All it took was "one" thing to make me question them and POOF! I was banned from Pod land! I think I might have been the shortest running "post person" on the pa threads! Good Lord it's hard to come up with the proper words this early in the morning. I have got to stop hanging around with George so much. Him and I both like to make up our own words you know?:idea:
Of course, I'm up, girlie -- gotta go to work. Once I get there, then I'll have time to play.

Consider your banishment from Poz a badge of honor. Who needs it? Who's George?

T42

04-18-2005, 05:14 PM

Of course, I'm up, girlie -- gotta go to work. Once I get there, then I'll have time to play.

Consider your banishment from Poz a badge of honor. Who needs it? Who's George?The President:Ssh:

Gratian Gasparri

04-18-2005, 05:19 PM

A thread on yet more bookstore rejections is right here:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8849.htm

I think this is the part about being a PA author that would tear at me the worst - these poor people think that bookstores are going to welcome them, and then they get the exact opposite reaction. Talk about being disallusioned - Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem ought to be really proud of themselves, but we all know they have the morals of Brazilian wharf rats.

I fear this poor woman is out of luck. I know exactly how she feels. What I am about to say ain't gonna be pretty. My co-author for my first book comes from the same city as this poor woman. It is literally Canada's Detroit, separated only by a couple of bridges and some border guards.

The economy in Windsor, from what I understand, is as troubled as the economy in Detroit. So if you're looking to break into a Canadian market, Windsor is probably one of the toughest since the pickings are lean. This means the margin of profitability is likely even smaller for bookstores in Windsor than elsewhere in the country.

Secondly, although Windsor is pretty much Detroit's Canadian suburb, there's still that pesky border. Canadian bookstores simply find it easier to deal with Canadian distributors. Nothing against Americans, it is simply easier to deal with a distributor who shares your same currency, can get you the stock overnight, doesn't charge you duty at the border, etc... If your publisher doesn't have a Canadian distributor, then you are probably out of luck in Canada.

This is why, despite the fact our book is approaching bestseller status in its genre in the United States, only a handful of Canadian bookstores carry it and none of them are in Windsor if I recall correctly. Simply put, our our American publisher doesn't currently have a Canadian distributor. So you find all sorts of copies of our book Detroit bookstores, but not in Windsor bookstores.

This saddens my co-author somewhat, but because Catholic publishers world-wide tend to be limited to their respective country, because our publisher has one of the best reputations as well as distribution networks in America, and becaise when it comes to the Catholic market Americans out-buy Canadians like some huge number to one, we're much better off with our American publisher than a Canadian one. So my co-author and I are, I suspect, stuck with the vanity model when it comes to selling the English edition of our book this side of the border. Although I cannot be certain of the numbers, I would not be surprised to discover that we sold more copies of our book in Canada than our publisher. And this is with a book that is well-established within its genre in the United States, offers standard industry discounts, a competitive cover price, is returnable, etc...

Now on top of this markup the cover price by about 50% to take into account the exchange rate, extra shipping, duty, taxes, etc... What do you suppose a PA book will retail for even if you can get it on the shelves?

In short, I feel sorry for this lady. I know how hard it is to break the Windsor market when all other things are equal. In her case, however, PA has stacked the deck against her.

Re Mr. Platts, he is personally one of my favorite PA posters. He says anything, and is quite abrasive most of the time, which oftens ends up being humorous. I can see where he could really get on someone's nerves, and if you were the target of one of his diatribes it definitely wouldn't be much fun at all.

Ah yes, is it just me or are we looking at Shemp 2.0?

Memphis Ed

04-18-2005, 05:21 PM

This is about the third crop of shiny optimism I've seen, and it's always just sad, sad, sad to see, knowing what's going to happen a few months down the road.

This is, as one of my favorites used to say, where the heartaches begin.

Author has dream; story in heart. Doesn't know how business works, sees call for "first time author...we PAY authors...blah, blah, blah." Author sends proposal or MS, hooray....dream is coming true. "Story will resonate...."

Family excited, dreams stoked. "Welcome to message board, we love you and we are awaiting our proofs!" " Got my dollar!" "Come to the campout!" "Thanks, PA!" "BTW, any ideas for selling books?"

Book arrives, dreams are reality. Party, big party.

After hangover, author starts marketing and gets hit in the face with a hammer. No bookstores, no respect, no support, no sales, no royalty check.

Dream shattered...this is what breaks my heart about what is going on over there.

This is no different than telling a high school athlete not to worry about school since the pros are waiting, only to throw him out there to find he's not ready.

Prospective PA authors: Run as FAST AS YOU CAN. Slow down...learn your craft. Read these boards and learn from the pros. You'll find wisdom and support and avoid losing your dream.

T42

04-18-2005, 05:28 PM

...
I think this is the part about being a PA author that would tear at me the worst - these poor people think that bookstores are going to welcome them, and then they get the exact opposite reaction. Talk about being disallusioned - Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem ought to be really proud of themselves, but we all know they have the morals of Brazilian wharf rats.

Ed, I'm pretty sure that the three stooges invented the Brazilian warf rats. From what I understand it was more conception then invention. I believe Moe-Randa wanted a baby and Clopper volunteered but the bullets were blank and so Curlem suggested they go to Brazil to find a baby for Moe. I think it was a shot in the dark but anyway, somehow they ended up trying to clone the three of them together so they could have a little stooge and Brazilian warf rat is what they got. Go figure:Shrug:

Ed Williams

04-18-2005, 05:36 PM

...they have changed the "New Releases" link on PA, the current grand total is 104 books. I don't know what period of time this represents, as they've gotten so sloppy about keeping the link updated, but whatever the case it's a far cry from the 200-300 releases a week they were showing not all that long ago.

Re Platts being Shemp 2, I don't think that title fits him best. Whatever social skills Platts lacks, he does seem to be reasonably intelligent, which would differentiate him from Shemp.

And remember this about Brazilian wharf rats - they do clean themselves periodically, can we say the same for Moe-randa, Larry, or Curlem?

Sher2

04-18-2005, 05:36 PM

The President:Ssh:
Oh. Without going all political on you, let me just say that was an easy one to miss. :ROFL:

realitychuck

04-18-2005, 05:38 PM

A1 Books and A1 Books.com are listed on the NJ BBB.Being listed in the BBB requires strict standards: your check has to clear.

The BBB doesn't screen its members. I assume if they receive a lot of complaints, they might rescind membership, but they welcome anyone in their area who wants to join, and consider them legitimate until proven otherwise.

It is useful in screening out scammers, though. Legitimate businesses don't talk much about being a member, mentioning to the general public only with a small sticker in their window. Scammers trumpet the fact that they are members on every bit of advertising they make. The chance of someone being a scam is directly proportional to how much they stress being BBB members.

Sher2

04-18-2005, 05:40 PM

This is, as one of my favorites used to say, where the heartaches begin.

Author has dream; story in heart. Doesn't know how business works, sees call for "first time author...we PAY authors...blah, blah, blah." Author sends proposal or MS, hooray....dream is coming true. "Story will resonate...."

Family excited, dreams stoked. "Welcome to message board, we love you and we are awaiting our proofs!" " Got my dollar!" "Come to the campout!" "Thanks, PA!" "BTW, any ideas for selling books?"

Book arrives, dreams are reality. Party, big party.

After hangover, author starts marketing and gets hit in the face with a hammer. No bookstores, no respect, no support, no sales, no royalty check.

Dream shattered...this is what breaks my heart about what is going on over there.

This is no different than telling a high school athlete not to worry about school since the pros are waiting, only to throw him out there to find he's not ready.

Prospective PA authors: Run as FAST AS YOU CAN. Slow down...learn your craft. Read these boards and learn from the pros. You'll find wisdom and support and avoid losing your dream.
MemphisEd, you pegged it. The problem is, they come in so starry-eyed that when someone tries to tell them the facts of life, they consider it dream-bashing. Then along come the cheerleaders to reinforce it and... Well, we already know the outcome. It sucks.

T42

04-18-2005, 05:41 PM

Oh. Without going all political on you, let me just say that was an easy one to miss. :ROFL: Little Missy, don't make me start making up more words! It won't be pleasant!:wag:

Sher2

04-18-2005, 05:43 PM

Ed, I'm pretty sure that the three stooges invented the Brazilian warf rats. From what I understand it was more conception then invention. I believe Moe-Randa wanted a baby and Clopper volunteered but the bullets were blank and so Curlem suggested they go to Brazil to find a baby for Moe. I think it was a shot in the dark but anyway, somehow they ended up trying to clone the three of them together so they could have a little stooge and Brazilian warf rat is what they got. Go figure:Shrug:
Thanks a bunch, Mem. I'm now so grossed out that I'm no longer looking for a prom date.:roll:

T42

04-18-2005, 05:44 PM

Thanks a bunch, Mem. I'm now so grossed out that I'm no longer looking for a prom date.:roll:It's called Birth Control:whip:

Richard White

04-18-2005, 05:55 PM

Thanks a bunch, Mem. I'm now so grossed out that I'm no longer looking for a prom date.:roll:

Prom date?

Egads. I vaguely remember my prom . . . 1977, I think.

Brrrr. . . .http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonsscared.gif

M. Story

04-18-2005, 05:57 PM

I came across these comments taken from a MB where PA was being discussed. These were posted in 2003. Some things never change...

I have looked at PA's website, and immediately was tipped off by the fact that they have a page dedicated to endorsements. What publishing house (POD or not) has to lure writers with testimony?

Second, I have recently found out an old college classmate of mine had been published by PA. I went and bought the book, as I was curious about what this person could write, and had a hard time locating it. PA does not put their books on store shelves, so it has to be specially ordered; Amazon.com also has their titles but you wait at least a month before hand.

When I received this book, I was in awe that such crap would be published by anyone. I found numerous flaws with this book, and have since decided that I would be ashamed to have my name in print by the same publisher.
While I haven't published through PA, I was offered a contract by them. I had an attorney look over the contract, and she actually laughed. They say the contract isn't as ridiculous as it used to be (they used to have a clause in there that gave them right of first refusal for your next book) but it's still pretty bad.

The contract is for 7 years. Thats about 4 over the norm.

They take almost all of your subsidiary rights, including some of the most precious ones, like movie rights and international rights and e-rights.

Plus there's some scary lawsuit language in there. It's pretty terrible. I would rather be unpublished than go through them.
...I'm hoping in the future a needy author will stumble upon this and be warned against publishamerica.

I have expericed similar problems that many of hte already been published by P.A. has experienced. I'm young and I wanted to be published for the sake of being published and since they agree to help get the book ready for publication then I though, 'Hey, this could be fun'. Boy, was I wrong. They didn't even edit my book! And when I was promised I COULD rewrite it and send it back, they sent me this nasty little letter in the mail and this woman, M.Pratherm, told me that she sent me an email stating we had to use the original copy. I wrote back and told her that I thought she was supposed to help (or an editor at least) and she responsed saying that I shouldn't be 'nasty' or 'unprofessional'. And I'm like, "What the he**!" They promised to help me fix the book up, that's why I went with them. But instead they use the book that I wrote in a month and had accepted in two days after emailing them.

I HAVE NOT AND WILL NOT PROMOTE MY BOOK! EVER! AND THEY CAN KISS MY A**!

Memphis Ed

04-18-2005, 06:03 PM

James D. Macdonald

04-18-2005, 06:03 PM

This saddens my co-author somewhat, but because Catholic publishers world-wide tend to be limited to their respective country...

Assuming your publisher only bought United States rights (rather than North American rights or English language rights), why not resell it to a Canadian publisher?

Ah yes, is it just me or are we looking at Shemp 2.0?

Randy has been around just about forever with a different routine than Shemp's. I do kinda wonder what he's doing there.

robeiae

04-18-2005, 06:04 PM

...but we all know they have the morals of Brazilian wharf rats.

Sounds like Ed is still thinking about his hamdog...

I'm still amazed at this nonsensical communal quality that is always invoked by alot of PA authors on their message boards..."If just one of us can make it big, we will all be noticed." ..."We just have to keep trying." ...etc., etc.

There may be many fine manuscripts that have been gobbled up by PA, but even if (a really big if) one were to really generate some interest, it simply does not follow that bookstores would just open up their shelves to PA books at large. Here's an idea I haven't heard yet: Let's all get together, pool our money, buy a bunch of copies of our books, then offer Borders money to buy shelf space for the books! Maybe we could even have an entire section of the store dedicated to PA only. After all, we have enough titles...how could they lose with a plan like this?

Rob

"Hey Frank, when Nordberg said 'I love you' he was talking about a boat, not you!"

"I realize that...now..."

DreamWeaver

04-18-2005, 06:06 PM

...in the "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" category [quotes PA poster]:
In fact, my parents have a very large motor home and we plan to hit the road this summer going as far as we can. It can be done without an agent, it is called believing in yourself and making it happen!
Ouch!! At the price of gas and the mpg rating of large motor homes, this may prove to be more of a money pit than the actual buying of the books to sell...http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

Kris

robeiae

04-18-2005, 06:08 PM

Could any therapists on this board tell me why I can't put this down?

It's alot like NASCAR...the same things keep going around and around, but once and a while something really big happens.

Rob

Sher2

04-18-2005, 06:11 PM

I came across these comments taken from a MB where PA was being discussed. These were posted in 2003. Some things never change...

[font=Courier New]

[color=#000000]
Geez, Marlene, it's like déjà vu all over again, huh? I wonder how many of this season's freshman flock will have adopted your motto in, say, three months from now?

Sher2

04-18-2005, 06:14 PM

....the "Praising PA" thread has morphed into a virtual admission that they are self-published and trying to identify successful self-published authors to compare to.

What is missing is the fact that normal self-publishing allows an author to make some money. The PA model does not.

BTW, the nighty gal is back and Jean Marie and friend aren't at it yet this AM.

Could any therapists on this board tell me why I can't put this down?
Thanks for the update on the nighty gal. Prurient minds want to know. :roll:

No therapist here, but I'd guess the reason you can't put it down is the same principle which compels us to look at accident scenes, no matter how much we really don't want to.

T42

04-18-2005, 06:19 PM

[QUOTE=Memphis Ed
Could any therapists on this board tell me why I can't put this down?[/QUOTE]Because were writers! We love the drama! Face it, were all Drama Queens!:thankyou: (Hey you boys are too so don't try to deny it!)

keltora

04-18-2005, 06:21 PM

All books will be ebooks once we achieve the 'paperless office.' [Wasn't that supposed to happen about 10 years ago??]

Yeah...that will happen when computers are totally trouble free...

As someone who works in a library that has installed a multitude of computers and is dumping print for online and electronic databases and discovering that it was not a smart move because those computers are just not perfect...

;)

T42

04-18-2005, 06:22 PM

Because were writers! We love the drama! Face it, were all Drama Queens!:thankyou: (Hey you boys are too so don't try to deny it!)That reminds me, Ed you better not be in the back room of the user CP. Don't make me come after you! Is that floozy in the nightie back there with you?:Smack:

Moondancer

04-18-2005, 06:23 PM

Could any therapists on this board tell me why I can't put this down?

For the same reasons people get hooked on soap operas. Day in, day out it's the same old thing: who's cheating on who, who's getting married to the hunk or babe somebody else loves, who killed who, and so on. However, once in awhile something happens that keeps you glued to the screen day in, day out just to see what's going to happen next.

keltora

04-18-2005, 06:24 PM

Yes, that's the S&H price for 250 books. Yeah, that's in addition to the price of the books.

PA charges $3.00 for the first book, plus $0.50 for each addtional book.

Interesting...I just ordered 10 copies of one of my older books (because I sold off all the free copies I got and need more for my next speaking engagement) and the shipping is about $4.00 for the whole kit and kaboodle of them.

robeiae

04-18-2005, 06:25 PM

Yeah...that will happen when computers are totally trouble free...
I'm sorry, but exactly what are you implyin$^($@@$&(<("><*^ ^&&
*dang! Stupid computer!* :Hammer:

Ed Williams

04-18-2005, 06:39 PM

....human interest type material, it seems to be what most message boards thrive on. I've had more than one person email me about our thread and tell me that it's like a literary soap opera being played out before everyone's eyes. Just think about it, you have:

The Villain - PA, the New Three Stooges, and the POD Squad.

The Heroes and Heroines - Uncle Jim, Jenna, Victoria, Ann, Dave, and most importantly, ZaZ.

A Good Plotline - Nefarious bottom feeding vanity POD actively scamming and breaking the hearts of hopeful writers.

And add in these items: feuds, an attempted Easter resurrection by a nut case, in-thread arguments, trolls, apologists, nay sayers, and a few cerebrally challenged individuals to boot. There's also been a little sex, but modesty forbids me to say much more about that. All in all, a good thread ends up being a representative slice of life, and I believe we can safely say that this thread embodies that. And then some.

Sher2

04-18-2005, 06:48 PM

I've had more than one person email me about our thread and tell me that it's like a literary soap opera being played out before everyone's eyes. Just think about it, you have:

Know what's wild? I believe, and have believed, that someone could copy this thread, stick a few pages of text on the front end of it, send it to PA and they would offer a publishing contract for it. Bottom line, anyone who reviews the facts and still believes PA is a viable publishing entity wishes to be deluded, that's the only explanation that could be given.
Of course, they would! The Cerebrally Challenged Threesome would grab it in a heartbeat. It's got everything they're looking for -- drama, tone, resonance, and the pivotal overcoming adversity. You know they'd love to give it the chance it deserves. Might want to expound on the sex thing a bit, though. Oh, I know -- put Nightie Girl on the cover. It'd be the hottest thing since 'Atlanta Nights.' :kiss:

Memphis Ed

04-18-2005, 07:00 PM

And add in these items: feuds, an attempted Easter resurrection by a nut case, in-thread arguments, trolls, apologists, nay sayers, and a few cerebrally challenged individuals to boot. There's also been a little sex, but modesty forbids me to say much more about that. All in all, a good thread ends up being a representative slice of life, and I believe we can safely say that this thread embodies that. And then some.

How about CBS presenting "Desperate Authors", starring Bob Denver as Shemp, Woody Allen as Clopper, Carol Bunett as Miranda, Don Rickles as Wilhem, Omarossa as the recently banned-from-this-board, Petula Clark as the campout queen, and the cast of "Lost" as happy PA authors?

James D. Macdonald

04-18-2005, 07:02 PM

I came across these comments taken from a MB where PA was being discussed. These were posted in 2003. Some things never change...

The thread Ms. Story is talking about is here (http://www.writers.net/forum/read/1/10562/10562Vf).

It does kinda make you wonder "where are they now?"

In one case, where the fellow left a web link to his page, we now find:

My contract with PublishAmerica to publish my short story collection: [title of book] has been dissolved amicably. This collection will now be published by [publisher] under its [name] imprint. I will keep you informed of the progress of the book. Many thanks for your kind support in the past.

Looks like someone signed a gag order... but also looks like they wrote a book that could have been published elsewhere.

Sher2

04-18-2005, 07:08 PM

How about CBS presenting "Desperate Authors", starring Bob Denver as Shemp, Woody Allen as Clopper, Carol Bunett as Miranda, Don Rickles as Wilhem, Omarossa as the recently banned-from-this-board, Petula Clark as the campout queen, and the cast of "Lost" as happy PA authors?
Dang, prime time won't ever be the same.:ROFL: Sheesh, you couldn't ask for better casting than "Lost" for the authors. They're in Limbo, maybe in Purgatory, maybe even dead, perhaps or perhaps not to be resurrected, and about to start ripping each other limb from limb. Sounds like Poz to me.

Gratian Gasparri

04-18-2005, 07:09 PM

Assuming your publisher only bought United States rights (rather than North American rights or English language rights), why not resell it to a Canadian publisher?

Long story... I hope you don't mind if I share it, since there are a number of PA authors lurking who ought to now how the small and mid-sized niche presses work when one is a new author like myself.

Basically, the publisher actually has the North American rights since they had a Canadian distributor when my co-author and I signed the contract with a smaller American niche publisher in my genre. This smaller publisher was then bought out by my current publisher, which is much larger and has been around a lot longer (and has probably the best distribution system in the US when it comes to the Catholic genre.) Nevertheless, the relationship with the Canadian distributor was discontinued for some reason. Since there is little demand in Canada for Catholic books, especially from new authors, and since the American publisher really got behind our book in the US, my co-author and I were quite happy to let this slide. I think part of it was the fact our new publisher sold more copies in pre-sale than our old publisher had anticipated for the book's lifetime.

Where it got more complicated is that the new publisher has a longstanding relationship with the French Canadian publisher that is buying the French rights, the latter of which also has an English division. The two have co-published books in the past, and they're seriously considering doing so with the English edition of the sequel. (Such a deal will likely also involve picking up the rights for a French translation of the sequel.) So the more likely scenario is that the French publisher may buy in on the reprint of the first English books in the series, or they might simply pick up on the distribution. Regardless, to negotiate with another Canadian press would actually limit the potential of a package deal with the French publisher.

Until this is worked out, however, my co-author and I are in a strange situation where we're using the commercial model in the States and the vanity model in Canada. Of course, over 95% of our sales are in the US, of which well under 1% are eyeball sales. In Canada, however, I would place eyeball sales at no less than 50%, although this would include booksignings where the store purchased the copies directly from the publisher.

Given the 60% discount off of case lots from the publisher (50% for any other quantity) plus strait shipping (no handling), it usually only comes out to around $4.15 to $4.50 a book, depending if it is stopped at customs or whatnot. Additionally, I've got up to 90 days to pay and any unsold quantities are returnable, so overall I would say the opportunity to publish with the American market is a blessing from God and that the system is for the most part working for us rather than against us.

Put another way, according to my friends who publish in the Canadian Catholic market, my co-author and I are still selling more books each month in the American market than what most Catholic books sell each year in the Canadian market. Nevertheless, the latter still sell more books than the average PA author. Which brings me back to my original point, namely, PA authors deserve better.

keltora

04-18-2005, 07:12 PM

I'm sorry, but exactly what are you implyin$^($@@$&(<("><*^ ^&&
*dang! Stupid computer!* :Hammer:

You DO know the old joke about what happens when you cross a nun with a computer, don't cha?

:D

Sheryl Nantus

04-18-2005, 07:12 PM

MMo

04-18-2005, 07:14 PM

The thread Ms. Story is talking about is here (http://www.writers.net/forum/read/1/10562/10562Vf).

It does kinda make you wonder "where are they now?"
(Snipped)

Thank you, Uncle Jim. I followed that link to the discussion pro and con (heavily con) about PA and found a PA Google ad, on which I promptly clicked. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteTrophy.gif

Mo

NancyMehl

04-18-2005, 07:22 PM

I think Ms. Jean Marie is about this close (putting my thumb and forefinger a sixteenth of an inch apart) to getting herself banned. Heck-o-pete, over a year ago they banned me, and for a lot less inflammatory talk.

When that happens, does anyone have her email addy, to direct her here? Tell her the MASH choppers will be warmed up, waiting to transport her, and the finest doctors are on call to see her through....

John

I'm taking a big chance here since I don't have time to read all the way to the end of this thread - so someone else probably pointed this out already - but since Jean Marie calls "he we are not allowed to talk about" Shemp - don't you imagine that she is already reading this thread on a regular basis????
(Hi, Jean Marie! :welcome: )

Heck, by the time I finally catch up, she may already be posting! LOL!

Nancy

MadScientistMatt

04-18-2005, 07:28 PM

Yeah...that will happen when computers are totally trouble free...

As someone who works in a library that has installed a multitude of computers and is dumping print for online and electronic databases and discovering that it was not a smart move because those computers are just not perfect...

;)

I know... my local library has computers and had a set of paper scraps for writing notes from the search on them next to the computers. I turned one of the scraps over and found it was actually a card from the now abandoned card catalog. I wanted to cry.

lizziepants

04-18-2005, 07:45 PM

... - but since Jean Marie calls "he we are not allowed to talk about" Shemp - don't you imagine that she is already reading this thread on a regular basis????
(Hi, Jean Marie! :welcome: )

Uncle Jim pointed this out to me, and I must say -- man, I've been away a long time, I didn't know Shemp = HB. There were about 200 pages or so of thread there that I missed.

Gratian Gasparri

04-18-2005, 07:46 PM

the sad thing is that the author in question in the Canadian city did write me back and I pointed her to this board and this thread... seems she's been bamboozled back into the fold by the other PA authors looking to keep one of their own captive as long as possible...

Because we probably have some Canadian PA authors lurking here, I hope everyone will be understanding if I suspend good manners among authors and talk money and numbers with regards to the Canadian market.

I would guess that my book with the co-author from Windsor has probably sold between 300-600 copies in Canada since coming out last September. This is just an educated guess. As an aside, you can see why my co-author and I were so interested in keeping our foot in the American market even though it makes things more difficult at home.

But this gives you an indication of how a book from a newbie Canadian author with an American publisher does in Canada with shaky distribution. Yet this assumes all things are equal between my publisher and PA. Such is not the case because:

1) My books are returnable.
2) My books books are not invoiced until 90 days after delivery.
3) My books are discounted 40-60%.
4) My books are professionally edited, designed, promoted, etc...
5) My books have been reviewed in most major American and Canadian periodicals in my genre.
6) My books are competitively priced at US $10.
7) Given my author's discount and minimal shipping fees, I can sell the book at par in Canada, that is to say $10 Canadian, and still make close to twice my money back through an eyeball sale.

So I wish my fellow Canuck well. She seems like a real nice lady. But IMHO she really needs to get with a commercial publisher where her book will be given the chance it deserves. For my part, I cannot see how the average Canadian brick-and-mortar bookstore could stock a PA book for anything under $30 Canadian and still make a profit.