The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

[Sher2]

Next up, the print it yourself option! Thus eliminated: all complaints about quality of printing, binding, and timeliness of delivery. For the complete package, authors may choose to edit, format, and print themselves (handle order fulfillment, too!), while obligated only to pay to PA all monies except the author's "royalty." Or perhaps pay PA an inverse royalty (commission?) of 92%. "Our authors treat us the old fashioned way: they pay us."

Geez, Guy, they read here! You might have just given them a new idea. You can bet they'll be all over it, too, if they think the sheep will bite. Not YOUR sheep, Kevin. Those are, um, special sheep.:roll:

[keltora]

But Sherry, doncha know.. you can buy anything at PA for only a dollar! :roll:

Here's an interesting thread... really. http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11895.htm

These people need to worship at the altar of Uncle Jim! :hooray:
Seriously, BIC, people, B...I...C . Wish someone could do a drive-by with the link to the "Writing with UJ" link on the Novels board.

:Lecture: Successful authors put their butts in a chair and write and rewrite and submit and resubmit. They treat writing like a business, set hours for working on their books, set goals to reach for each and every day...

And as a result, they are able to produce a book a year--even with a job holding some of them down, they can produce a book a year.

It's application of the seat of the pants to the seat of the chair, dedication to the work, and persistence that keeps them going.

This is not to say that writers who get sucked into the PA whirlpool cannot produce the same amount of work as the pros they worship. If they follow the formula, it works.

I write more than one book a year, and since I usually have more than one deadline, I am usually working on several projects at once. And I have a social life and hold down a full time job, and still find time to go to schools and speak to students on writing, and to attend conventions (I was at one just this past weekend).

Plus I still manage to produce short fiction and novellas as well.

I am just a busy bee of a writer...:snoopy:

Hey, do we have a bee icon?

[ByGrace]

Remember, boys and girls, you don't have to sign a gag clause just because they stick one in.

So, what is an author to do that wants a release but doesn't want the gag clause in the release contract? Can they X it out and initial it? Is there a statute of limitations on that clause, or is it forever?

[Sher2]

I write more than one book a year, and since I usually have more than one deadline, I am usually working on several projects at once. And I have a social life and hold down a full time job, and still find time to go to schools and speak to students on writing, and to attend conventions (I was at one just this past weekend).

Plus I still manage to produce short fiction and novellas as well.

I am just a busy bee of a writer...:snoopy:

Hey, do we have a bee icon?
Wow, I'd say you ARE a busy bee. And I am dying to read about hillbilly vampires; do give a heads-up when it's out.

Yeah, can somebody find us a bee icon? It's springtime, I'm dying of spring fever, and I've got birds and bees on my mind. Seriously. I just took down my Christmas flag and hoisted my huge pink flamingo flag. :ROFL:

[Crystal Rivers]

This motto can be easily translated into other industries:

Restaurants: We treat our customers the old fashioned way, we feed them.

Movie Theaters: We show our movies the old fasihoned way: we project them.

Newspapers: We treat our news the old fashioned way: we print it.

Such a bland motto. Here's a better one for PA: We treat our authors the old fashioned way: we berate them, we fleece them, we take all their money.



Thanks for the laughs. Keep 'em comin'! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteThumbs.gif http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteClap.gif

[DeePower]

"I wonder how many books, of all those that get an ISBN every year, were never intended to BE on general bookstore shelves in the first place? Like, for example, scholarly works, association/organization publications, and government publications from those that do the ISBN cha-cha (like my former employer did)."

About half of the 175,000 books released in a year are not meant for bookstore placement. The 4 big publish on demand houses; iuniverse, authorshouse, xlibris and PublishAmerica release about 2000 titles a month or 24000 titles a year. These books, as we all know, won't be found on bookstore shelves either. So that leaves roughly 65,000 titles.

ByGrace, unfortunately if you cross out, or add, any verbage to a contract the other party has to agree to the changes. And yes I believe the gag order is forever or until PublishAmerica is no longer in existence. (Not a lawyer)

Dee

[lindylou45]

Nobody can fill those shoes. There's just not that much stipid left in the world. ;)

Poor Changling -- one typo and you'll never live it down. It's just so perfect for Larry, Curlem, Moe-randa, and the Pod Squad! I hope you understand. :)

[lindylou45]

By golly, you're right. Heck, we're all writers, I'm betting that we could come up with a far better motto.

How about, PA -- We don't kiss you first! :poke:

[Sher2]

Lola, I just got your, er, request, and my answer is yes, you can. You gotta work on the attitude, though. I mean, "nice" will carry you only so far. Oh, wait, what am I thinking? We're going to do this differently, aren't we? Carry on. The job is yours. The pay is $1.00 a day and all the authors you can abuse. Perks include riding herd on the message board bully of the hour and watering the livestock in the cellar. And listen, whatever else you do to Those Three while you're down there is your business. :banana: Additional perk: you can order the editor of your choice, at any time, to make you a banana split. Warning: Bard may fight you for the job.

[Sher2]

How about, PA -- We don't kiss you first! :poke:
Or perhaps, "Bend over and kiss your *** goodbye."

God, I need to eat some dinner. I'm getting positively loopy.;)

[Susan Gable]

"Congratulations on EMPRESS OF CLOUDS being selected as a 2004 BOOK OF THE YEAR AWARD finalist, science fiction category!"


Wooo-hoooo! Way to go, Diana! This is excellent news! Megacongrats!

:snoopy: :Cheer: :TheWave: :PartySmil :partyguy:

Party time! :-)

Susan G.

[lindylou45]

If you'll lend me some money, I can probably outbid him. Once I'm a partner, I'll hire you to run the spell-checker. Deal?

Hey, I've got $12.36 from royalties of my first book. Will that help? As far as the spell-checker -- I kam due thet! :partyguy: :snoopy:

[Sher2]

Hey, I've got $12.36 from royalties of my first book. Will that help? As far as the spell-checker -- I kam due thet! :partyguy: :snoopy:
Yes, butt kin ewe sea know evil, here no eval, and dew sum Elavil?;)

[James D. Macdonald]

I once saw a parody version of the PA banner with the slogan "We treat authors the old-fashioned way -- we screw them."

======================

Ah, yes:

By the way... (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11895.htm)
They keep churning out books year after year. I am impressed and awed by their abilities to do this. Just writing my one book took me over a year to write it. Then it's taken me about 12 years to finally get it published. Every year, always in March or April, two of my favorite mystery authors come out with new books, Robert B. Parker and Elizabeth Peters. Each year around Christmastime, Dean Koontz comes out with a new book. Each year, Joan Hess and Carolyn Hart come out with new books. It is awesome to me how they accomplish this. My hats off to them. If I can ever get to this level of success it will be beyond belief.

Well, come visit the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim thread, my friend. While "churn out" isn't exactly the way I'd put it, I'll tell you true: If you write one page a day, at the end of a year you'll have a book-length manuscript.

Is Marketing to Bookstores a waste of Time (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11894.htm)


You've got to remember that Ms. Hoy owns a POD press. She's looking at this from an angle.

Do you know why publishers want to put books into bookstores? Because there's no better place to sell them. As Research Guy pointed out, if getting books into bookstores doesn't translate into sales what the heck does not getting books into bookstores translate into?

What you need to know is: Nearly 60% of booksales take place in bookstores.

Many, many of the books published each year aren't intended for bookstore sales at all (book club editions, law books, bound reports, academic works, encyclopedias, etc...). Of the rest -- roughly half are shelved in your average B&N superstore. Smaller presses get their books into fewer stores. That's part of what makes them smaller presses. But about the same percentage of the print run of each commercial book gets shelved. Perhaps briefly, but shelved.

The nonsense about "2% of all authors will find their book shelved in a bookstore" is pure nonsense. Trash. Lies. The only way they can say that is by counting the books by unpublished authors too.

[lindylou45]

"most authors don't realize is that having your book on a shelf in a bookstore isn't likely to generate many, if any, sales." :Wha:

That's ludicrous! (Shaking head in disbelief). Even I wasn't that naïve! Seriously, you PA authors have got to get over here. We'll welcome you with open arms and you'll learn so much! Come on over, the coffee's on and Mem sent me a batch of her special brownies. I just might share! :welcome: (She also sent some of her rum cake, but I'm not sharing that with anybody!!)

[victoriastrauss]

:Lecture: Successful authors put their butts in a chair and write and rewrite and submit and resubmit. They treat writing like a business, set hours for working on their books, set goals to reach for each and every day...

And as a result, they are able to produce a book a yearJust have to speak up for slower writers here...BIC is essential, but it may not result in a book a year. Or even a book in two years. Not everyone is able to write that fast. Nor is writing that fast essential for success (though it certianly helps). Many successful authors publish at intervals of several years.

- Victoria

[Jaws]

But Sherry, doncha know.. you can buy anything at PA for only a dollar! :roll:How about truthful, nonabusive answers to honest questions from confused authors? Think they could get that for a dollar?

[Renee]

Congratulations, Diana, you're an inspiration!

Wishing you the best!
:Jump:

[akaa1a]

"How about truthful, nonabusive answers to honest questions from confused authors? Think they could get that for a dollar?"

Sorry Jaws, but if you act right now and call 1-800-YUR-CRAP, along with your $1 and seven year contract you'll receive a free CD with these PA favorites;


"Do Wa Diddy...You're Dirt"


"Now, Don't Take That Tone With Me"


"No Questions Will Go Answered"

AND the sentimental favorite...

"Your Book...It's Ours Now!"


All this for just one dollar?
You bet!
But wait...there's more!
As an extra thank you, PA promises to be vague, condescending, and deceitful at no extra charge.
Just one more way to let our authors know we got them comin' and going with no hope for escape!

Call NOW!!!! Larry, Mo, Curlem, Jessica, Janet and whoever the heck else is minding the store is waiting to talk down to you!!!

[Christine N.]

Just have to speak up for slower writers here...BIC is essential, but it may not result in a book a year. Or even a book in two years. Not everyone is able to write that fast. Nor is writing that fast essential for success (though it certianly helps). Many successful authors publish at intervals of several years.

- Victoria

And, of course, this depends on how long the books are that you write. I write middle grade fiction, only about 50-55K words each. Doesn't take me that long. Of course, my first book took nearly three years. But that was when I was writing because I wanted to see if I could finish a book, and didn't write continuously. The current WIP had a first draft in 5 months, and that was with taking a month off for Nanowrimo.

(Plus, I'm kinda stuck with my BIC for at least another month, so it's going that much faster. I have not much else to do!)

Oh, yeah... PA SUCKS ROTTEN EGGS!

[Literary Lola]

Lola, I just got your, er, request, and my answer is yes, you can. You gotta work on the attitude, though. I mean, "nice" will carry you only so far. Oh, wait, what am I thinking? We're going to do this differently, aren't we? Carry on. The job is yours. The pay is $1.00 a day and all the authors you can abuse. Perks include riding herd on the message board bully of the hour and watering the livestock in the cellar. And listen, whatever else you do to Those Three while you're down there is your business. :banana: Additional perk: you can order the editor of your choice, at any time, to make you a banana split. Warning: Bard may fight you for the job.
I'm overjoyed. I simply don't know what to say. What? Moi- a loss for words? Whoa, this is momentous.

Bard, how's about thee and me turning the The Evil Three into dumbwaiters. Oops, there I go, pulling oxymorons out of my hat. Ooops, there I go again. Oxy-moron...heh, heh.

We'll have Curlem serve us pina coladas balanced on the top of his bald little dome while reading English for Dummies, Moe-randa can dance on the sidewalks wearing a sandwich board that says, "I'm an Oscar Meyer wiener," and Larry will be elected to buy an updated version of Spell-check.

[arrowqueen]

Congratulations, Diana. Wonderful news. Well done!

[Literary Lola]

"How about truthful, nonabusive answers to honest questions from confused authors? Think they could get that for a dollar?"

Sorry Jaws, but if you act right now and call 1-800-YUR-CRAP, along with your $1 and seven year contract you'll receive a free CD with these PA favorites;


"Do Wa Diddy...You're Dirt"


"Now, Don't Take That Tone With Me"


"No Questions Will Go Answered"

AND the sentimental favorite...

"Your Book...It's Ours Now!"


All this for just one dollar?
You bet!
But wait...there's more!
As an extra thank you, PA promises to be vague, condescending, and deceitful at no extra charge.
Just one more way to let our authors know we got them comin' and going with no hope for escape!

Call NOW!!!! Larry, Mo, Curlem, Jessica, Janet and whoever the heck else is minding the store is waiting to talk down to you!!!
gasping...for...air...laughing...oh...my sides...

[Sher2]

I'm overjoyed. I simply don't know what to say. What? Moi- a loss for words? Whoa, this is momentous.

Bard, how's about thee and me turning the The Evil Three into dumbwaiters. Oops, there I go, pulling oxymorons out of my hat. Ooops, there I go again. Oxy-moron...heh, heh.

We'll have Curlem serve us pina coladas balanced on the top of his bald little dome while reading English for Dummies, Moe-randa can dance on the sidewalks wearing a sandwich board that says, "I'm an Oscar Meyer wiener," and Larry will be elected to buy an updated version of Spell-check.
Lola, honey, the crown -- I mean, the helmet is yours. It's okay to use the word "oxymoron" and even to make up some around the new digs; the new staff will know what it means. Gotta tell you, though, I ain't drinking anything off Curlem's head. I don't think you should, either. You don't know where his head has been. As for Moe-randa, a weiner board is too good for her. I think we ought to sell her to some real pirates -- the ones with sharp weapons and planks and candles in their beards. And Larry? He stays in the cage in the cellar, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Bard will volunteer to feed him if'n you're skeered -- she ain't skeered of nothin'. :banana:

[Sher2]

"Do Wa Diddy...You're Dirt"


"Now, Don't Take That Tone With Me"


"No Questions Will Go Answered"

AND the sentimental favorite...

"Your Book...It's Ours Now!"


All this for just one dollar?
You bet!
But wait...there's more!
As an extra thank you, PA promises to be vague, condescending, and deceitful at no extra charge.
Just one more way to let our authors know we got them comin' and going with no hope for escape!

Call NOW!!!! Larry, Mo, Curlem, Jessica, Janet and whoever the heck else is minding the store is waiting to talk down to you!!!
Oh, Lord, AKA, you are on a roll! LMAO! :roll:

[Ken Schneider]

From my observations over the past year.

I have seen many P.A. authors say that the Printer wouldn't take their second book for a period of time after the first book was released.

Others have said that they didn't have that problem. No!,it isn't,for the ones that buy books.
If they know you'll buy books they churn them out as fast as you can pay your credit card down.

See below-

----- Original Message -----
> From: "PublishAmerica Acquisitions" <leah@publishamerica.com (leah@publishamerica.com)>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:01 AM
> Subject: The Wednesday Night Big Girls Love Club
>
>
> > Dear Mr. Schneider:
> >
> > This query is concerning The Wednesday Night Big Girls Love Club.
09/17/04
> > we requested your submissions package but have not yet received it. If I
> > can be of any further assistance, please contact me. I look forward to
> > receiving and your manuscript soon.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Leah Baird
> > Assistant Acquisitions Editor
> > PublishAmerica

I mentioned on the board at P.A. that I might might title my next book as above. I never quiered, nor did I receive an e-mail asking for the submissions package.

P.A. Throws out the fishing line, Zingggggg. They lost their worm on that cast.

Chang.

[Patricia]

From my observations over the past year.

I have seen many P.A. authors say that the Printer wouldn't take their second book for a period of time after the first book was released.

Others have said that they didn't have that problem. No!,it isn't,for the ones that buy books.
If they know you'll buy books they churn them out as fast as you can pay your credit card down.

See below-

----- Original Message -----
> From: "PublishAmerica Acquisitions" <leah@publishamerica.com (leah@publishamerica.com)>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:01 AM
> Subject: The Wednesday Night Big Girls Love Club
>
>
> > Dear Mr. Schneider:
> >
> > This query is concerning The Wednesday Night Big Girls Love Club.
09/17/04
> > we requested your submissions package but have not yet received it. If I
> > can be of any further assistance, please contact me. I look forward to
> > receiving and your manuscript soon.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Leah Baird
> > Assistant Acquisitions Editor
> > PublishAmerica

I mentioned on the board at P.A. that I might might title my next book as above. I never quiered, nor did I receive an e-mail asking for the submissions package.



Ken, I think the email is saying that they are querying you for the title and have at some time sent you a request to submit it.

[Ken Schneider]

Ken, I think the email is saying that they are querying you for the title and have at some time sent you a submission request.


Ha, problem is they never sent the package to start with. What publisher do you know that got wind of what you may title you next book, would e-mail you for a submission package.
I know, they might some famous author, but, since I bought books the first go round and never submitted again, they were fishing.

[Canada James]

Ha, problem is they never sent the package to start with. What publisher do you know that got wind of what you may title you next book, would e-mail you for a submission package.
I know, they might some famous author, but, since I bought books the first go round and never submitted again, they were fishing.

In the area of fairness:

My publisher got wind of me from a trusted friend. His company, until me, only published picture books and now he wanted to get into YA fiction. My friend had read my manuscript and told him about it. Later that night I got an email from him saying that he'd heard of my manuscript and wondered if I'd send him a proposal.

He loved it. And yes, this book had been shot down by other publishers.

Canada James

[Sher2]

No, Kev, you have it wrong; Mucus IS a partner. He had to die in order to get the position. After all, it isn't professional to be a partner AND bellicose...
But are we positive he's not one of Laura's Hillbilly Vampires? Cold, black-hearted, blood-sucking, scared to come out in the light of day -- yep, he's a partner.;)

[robeiae]

What's the term for sausage making?

Oddly enough its "sausage making," from the French sausi, meaning "unwanted smelly meat parts," and the Latin meki, meaning to "stuff violently."

Hmmm...it does seem to resonate with PA somehow.

Rob

[Lisa Y]

First of all, congratulations, Diana :Hail: :Thumbs: :Clap:

Second of all, I have an idea that might make PA get books out even faster. Another option called the "You Lick It Option". Instead of the books being sent to a printer, where books are bound but gosh, it takes so much darn time, PA can just slap some stamp like glue on the spline and send it right to the author. Then all the author has to do is lick the spline and the books are ready to go!! :idea:

[Ken Schneider]

First of all, congratulations, Diana :Hail: :Thumbs: :Clap:

Second of all, I have an idea that might make PA get books out even faster. Another option called the "You Lick It Option". Instead of the books being sent to a printer, where books are bound but gosh, it takes so much darn time, PA can just slap some stamp like glue on the spline and send it right to the author. Then all the author has to do is lick the spline and the books are ready to go!! :idea:

Ha Ha! . Brinng Brinng, Lisa P.A. wants to talk to you on the phone. They like your thinking and want to hire you. LOL.

[Sher2]

Oddly enough its "sausage making," from the French sausi, meaning "unwanted smelly meat parts," and the Latin meki, meaning to "stuff violently."

Hmmm...it does seem to resonate with PA somehow.

Rob
Don't it, though? Might be some pretty rancid sausage, though -- which just might resonate a malevolent odor all over Poz. ;)

[writerjenn]

Duhh. What can you expect, I did sign a contract with PA.


Please Crystal, don't ever EVER think you were stupid for signing with PA. Naive perhaps, but never stupid. PA are experts at taking in newbies by manipulating their dreams. It wasn't your fault then, and it certainly isn't now.

Chin up, ever forward.

Jenn

[Sher2]

First of all, congratulations, Diana :Hail: :Thumbs: :Clap:

Second of all, I have an idea that might make PA get books out even faster. Another option called the "You Lick It Option". Instead of the books being sent to a printer, where books are bound but gosh, it takes so much darn time, PA can just slap some stamp like glue on the spline and send it right to the author. Then all the author has to do is lick the spline and the books are ready to go!! :idea:
I agree with Changling, Lisa -- you'd better run before Poz calls. Ooooooooo. The simple elegance of the concept just slends slivers down my spline.:)

[Lisa Y]

Sher,

"slends slivers". I just spit on my screen. I really need an emoticon for that!

[Literary Lola]

I agree with Changling, Lisa -- you'd better run before Poz calls. Ooooooooo. The simple elegance of the concept just slends slivers down my spline.:)
I just may die laughing. I agree with Lisa, we need an emoticon for that because the mental image is killing me.

[AnneMarble]

Apologies to anyone who may have already noted this, but another possible explanation for the change comes to mind: Maybe word is getting out, and PA's having a hard time hiring new "editors."

Good point. Maybe kids are Googling the company before answering the ads. :) And maybe some editors have seen the posts directed to them here...
:hi:

[Sher2]

I just may die laughing. I agree with Lisa, we need an emoticon for that because the mental image is killing me.
Yeth! Who bwee the kweeper of the emloticons? We need a spline and a blusted spleen. Oh, and an Undead. And pwease, a stipid! :roll:

[Ken Schneider]

Good point. Maybe kids are Googling the company before answering the ads. :) And maybe some editors have seen the posts directed to them here...
:hi:

And, good point from you Anne. I hadn't thought of the applicants checking on the company. Smart people would do that.

[Jeff]

From a PA thread:

"I, also will buy two books a month, read and review them. I think this is the most powerful thing we can do as PA authors."

.....

It is just depressing to sit here and read yet another new crop of PA authors who think that buying one anothers books is a road to success.

Listen up, folks:

The truth of the matter is that the MOST POWERFUL thing that a PA author can do for themselves is to write their NEXT book and publish it somewhere else.


Otter: "Don't you find cucumbers sensuous?"
Mrs. Wormer: "Cucumbers are sensual. People are sensuous."
Otter: "Sensual. Yes. That's what I meant..."

[Ed Williams]

....that it seems to have been over a week since PA last updated its "New Releases" section. Might be worth keeping half an eye on...

A potential tempest in a teapot is starting to brew over on the PA boards, apparently one PA author has gotten the word out that his book IS going to be stocked in all the Barnes and Noble bookstores, click on the below for the tender details:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11893.htm

PA authors, this person is probably just confused about things, but, given the fact that the New Three Stooges and the POD Squad run your company, hey, anything is possible. The fact that someone would even wonder about it says it all...

Here's a thought - maybe, instead of printing the books at all, PA could go into a new formating technique - Phone Books! Think about it, Phone Books! Isn't that catchy? And get this, to order a "PA Phone Book," the caller would call into a nine hundred number especially set up by PA, and then a PA staffer would actually read the book of choice over the phone! Hey, it saves trees, it saves lots of overhead costs for PA, and at a bill rate of four to five dollars a minute, Moe-randa, Larry, Curlem, and the POD Squad can get richer than ever....

The Phone Book! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/alc.gif

[DaveKuzminski]

Here's a thought - maybe, instead of printing the books at all, PA could go into a new formating technique - Phone Books! Think about it, Phone Books! Isn't that catchy? And get this, to order a "PA Phone Book," the caller would call into a nine hundred number especially set up by PA, and then a PA staffer would actually read the book of choice over the phone! Hey, it saves trees, it saves lots of overhead costs for PA, and at a bill rate of four to five dollars a minute, Moe-randa, Larry, Curlem, and the POD Squad can get richer than ever....


Ed, you're really dispicable. [Picture Sylvester or Porky saying this.] Once their lines are tied up in that manner, I won't be able to reach them to place my order for one of their books. ;)

[AnneMarble]

Folks, I came across http://www.hipiers.com/publishing.html this morning, while Googling PublishAmerica scam (that, like PublishAmerica fraud brings up lots of sites). PA is in the list, but there is soooooooooo much more that y'all might find interesting and tangentially pertinent to this thread if you have not already seen it.

It's an interesting list. Controversial because he doesn't think POD is necessarily a bad thing, even for novelists. But he does get some interesting information on how some publishers are doing, reports from both angry and happy authors, etc.

Did you see his coverage of Atlanta Nights in the February issue of his newsletter? It's at http://www.hipiers.com/05feb.html

Hint: Search for "PublishAmerica" as he left the space out. :)

[Jeff]

Folks, I came across http://www.hipiers.com/publishing.html this morning, while Googling PublishAmerica scam (that, like PublishAmerica fraud brings up lots of sites). PA is in the list, but there is soooooooooo much more that y'all might find interesting and tangentially pertinent to this thread if you have not already seen it.

That is the site for author Piers Anthony, he of the Xanth and Incarnations of Immortality series of novels, among others. I have long enjoyed his fiction, but I've truly enjoyed reading his autobiography (which has been updated and reprinted) in which he talks of his childhood and his struggle with technology. Perhaps the most interesting portion of the book, however, is his recounting of his struggles with his publisher to get a fair and honest accounting of his sales and what he considered the subsequent blacklisting of his books for a while.

A good read, folks.


D-Day: "I thought it was loaded with blanks!"
Bluto: "HOLY SH*T!"
D-Day: "It is loaded with blanks!"
Bluto: HOLY SH*T!"
Both: "YAAAAAAAAHHHHH!"

[Gratian Gasparri]

Or for Option 3, which I still think is at least a remote possibility...transitioning to a more straightforward vanity/self-pub model. They could do this and still keep their hook, which distinguishes them from other vanity PODs--no upfront payments.

- Victoria

I think this would be the best option for PA, to state upfront they are a vanity/self-pub operation. The problem with option one and two is that PA has reached a point where the industry will suspect any attempt on their part to become a legitimate commercial publisher.

[Gratian Gasparri]

Add Michele Omran to the list of general partners signing contracts for PublishAmerica.

Michele Omran michele@publishamerica.com (michele@publishamerica.com) Acquisitions Supervisor

Dee

I wonder if PartnerAmerica is now hiring partners rather than employees?

[realitychuck]

Re: http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11894.htm (about how books aren't sold in bookstores).

As usual, do a reality check: ask yourself, what percentage of the books I own did I buy from bookstores? And what percentage of the books I own were bought other ways?

For me, I guess about 85% bookstores (including newstands) and 15% other sources. At that 15% is probably higher than most, since we buy a lot from book clubs. In addition all the books we've purchased on book clubs and online sources were available in bookstores; we just bought them other ways for convenience sake.

I might have a dozen books (out of well over 2000) that never appeared in bookstores, including Atlanta Nights, The Pleistoscene Redemption (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/r_tpr.htm), The Ultimatum to Mankind (http://web.archive.org/web/20030621010931/http://www.tangentonline.com/reviews/magazine.php3?review=178)* and a handful of self-published books. All are godawful, but, other than Atlanta Nights, all were sent to me free by self-published authors trying to promote their work.

I think most people will have similar results (with, probably, even fewer self-published books in their library).

So if 85% of most people's purchases of books come from bookstores, how can you argue with a straight face that having your book in bookstores doesn't generate sales? To paraphrase Willy Sutton, you want books in bookstores because that's where the buyers are.

*A terrible self-published novella I reviewed for Tangent. Boring, preachy and not even entertainingly bad (other than for picking holes in the author's argument).

(Added link)

[Sher2]

As usual, do a reality check: ask yourself, what percentage of the books I own did I buy from bookstores? And what percentage of the books I own were bought other ways?

For me, I guess about 85% bookstores (including newstands) and 15% other sources. At that 15% is probably higher than most, since we buy a lot from book clubs. In addition all the books we've purchased on book clubs and online sources were available in bookstores; we just bought them other ways for convenience sake.

The vast majority of the books I buy (and I have over 2,000 as well) are bought from either bookstores or a book club. If I'm not looking for instant gratification, I'll buy from the book club or Amazon or B&N online for the sake of convenience. Even so, every title is readily available in any bookstore.

[Sher2]

....that it seems to have been over a week since PA last updated its "New Releases" section. Might be worth keeping half an eye on...

A potential tempest in a teapot is starting to brew over on the PA boards, apparently one PA author has gotten the word out that his book IS going to be stocked in all the Barnes and Noble bookstores, click on the below for the tender details:

The Phone Book! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/alc.gif
Boy, I feel sorry for that guy when the rose colored spectacles inevitably fall off his face. He's in for a bitter disappointment. Luckily, there will be room for him here when that day comes.

PartnerAmerica just might go for the phone book deal. Shoot, there's a killing to be made in Yellow Pages ads. They'd be all over that.

[James D. Macdonald]

Controversial because he doesn't think POD is necessarily a bad thing, even for novelists.

At one point he was a part-owner of Xlibris, and used it to bring out at least one of his trunk novels.

[WhisperingBard]

And Larry? He stays in the cage in the cellar, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Bard will volunteer to feed him if'n you're skeered -- she ain't skeered of nothin'.

Oh, I am afraid of *some* things, Sher. Sprouting white hairs on my chin. Running out of Cadbury chocolate. The recurring nightmare where I go through life known only as a "PA Author."

But Larry? *Phftttt* Bring 'im on. Lola and I can handle him. :box:

[ResearchGuy]

At one point he was a part-owner of Xlibris, and used it to bring out at least one of his trunk novels.
Still is, I believe. He mentions that and other connections in his list.

--Ken

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Warning: This post mentions R*ck*ds, so don't read if that subject raises your blood pressure...You evil, EVIL woman.

Guess what I've been doing for much of the last 24 hours? Go on. Guess!

*perk!* But I found Ann Crispin's gravy recipe! (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.composition/msg/e1941612d514489d) So, y'know, it's a wash.

[lucyishome]

Yeth! Who bwee the kweeper of the emloticons? We need a spline and a blusted spleen. Oh, and an Undead. And pwease, a stipid! :roll:


Ssshh I am trying to resonate.

Anne

:hi:

[AnneMarble]

You evil, EVIL woman.

Guess what I've been doing for much of the last 24 hours? Go on. Guess!

You poor thing! :faint: I salute you! :Hail:

*perk!* But I found Ann Crispin's gravy recipe! (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.composition/msg/e1941612d514489d) So, y'know, it's a wash.

Food and rasfc always seem to go together. I enjoyed the discussions on critiques and style, found the ones about IP addresses educational, and liked the posts about roundabouts. The subthread about shaving brushes wasn't really up my ally, however. ;)

However, if I start to mention alt.books.ghost-fiction, someone please slap me. :D

[Ed Williams]

...of Moe-randa, Larry, Curlem, or the POD Squad would do nicely for the stipid avatar, don't y'all think?

Kent Dorfman: Uh, what's my Delta Tau Chi name?
Bluto: Dorfman, I've given this a lot of thought. From now on, your name is Flounder.
Kent Dorfman: [Pause] Flounder?

[lindylou45]

I once saw a parody version of the PA banner with the slogan "We treat authors the old-fashioned way -- we screw them."

======================

Ah, yes:

By the way... (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11895.htm)


Well, come visit the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim thread, my friend. While "churn out" isn't exactly the way I'd put it, I'll tell you true: If you write one page a day, at the end of a year you'll have a book-length manuscript.



I love that thread, Uncle Jim. I've learned so much from you and all the other people who participate. It's so great to be able to talk/read about writing w/o PA looming over my head.

I have to admit that I didn't believe I could do BIC. I've never been able to force myself to sit down and write, but I tried it. I had forty-five pages written of my fourth novel when I started using BIC. I worked one hour in the morning and one hour in the evening (I know, it's kind of cheating), I generally got anywhere from six to ten pages done a day, and in a little over two months I have the rough draft of a 410 page ms complete. I haven't really started an in-depth edit yet, so for all I know it could be pure drivel, I'll have to get back to you on that.

So if I can do this anyone can. Uncle Jim is a great teacher and this is from someone who at times can be dumber than dirt. Thanks so much for everything! :Hail:

[lindylou45]

Larry will be elected to buy an updated version of Spell-check.

Hay, Speel_cahkc es me jab! :Thumbs:

[lindylou45]

P.A. Throws out the fishing line, Zingggggg. They lost their worm on that cast.[/i]

Chang.

But Chang, PA doesn't solicit manuscripts. Didn't you know that?

[Galoot]

From the thread in need of a BIC lesson (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11895.htm) comes this quote:As far as quantum is concerned I know very little but the little I do know is enough. Take a murder mystery novel, as long as I read the page that discloses the murderer I do not need to read the whole book.Oh, wow. This just makes my head spin.

1) Accepting the conclusions reached in a physics book (or any book) because you've read only the last page, the one that starts "Thus, it follows...," is the antithesis of critical thinking.

2) That take-it-on-faith attitude immediately suggests why this person is with PA.

3) If I somehow stumble across a synopsis of this author's book some day, I won't bother buying it because, hey, I read the synopsis!

Cripes.

[lindylou45]

Ed Williams said. . .A potential tempest in a teapot is starting to brew over on the PA boards, apparently one PA author has gotten the word out that his book IS going to be stocked in all the Barnes and Noble bookstores,...

PA authors, this person is probably just confused about things...

B&N are associates of PublishAmerica as well as Amazon.com and Chapters.com."

That says it all right there. This person thinks -- much like I did -- that getting his book listed on these online bookstores is the same as having them in the stores. Unfortunately, he's in for a huge disappointment when he enters a B&N for the first time.

Here's a thought - maybe, instead of printing the books at all, PA could go into a new formating technique - Phone Books! Think about it, Phone Books! Isn't that catchy? And get this, to order a "PA Phone Book," the caller would call into a nine hundred number especially set up by PA, and then a PA staffer would actually read the book of choice over the phone! Hey, it saves trees, it saves lots of overhead costs for PA, and at a bill rate of four to five dollars a minute, Moe-randa, Larry, Curlem, and the POD Squad can get richer than ever....

Ed, you've got to stop giving The New Three Stooges and The POD Squad ideas!

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

You poor thing! I salute you!I've sorted the thread by date, and I'm up to around post 2310. That's not quite halfway through. I'll probably bookmark my progress, go to bed, and pick it up again tomorrow after I'm done my first BICcing session for the morning.

Food and rasfc always seem to go together. I enjoyed the discussions on critiques and style, found the ones about IP addresses educational, and liked the posts about roundabouts. The subthread about shaving brushes wasn't really up my ally, however. ;)I really appreciated finally getting the whole story on why one oughtn't to pronounce SF as "sigh-fie". I still think the distinction is silly, but at least now I know the origins. Sort of.

The lock-picking stuff definitely warrented a "come back and check this out later."

It's really time I started checking out other newsgroups than misc.writing and misc.writing.moderated. rasfc and rasfw are looking better and better all the time.

However, if I start to mention alt.books.ghost-fiction, someone please slap me. :DReeeeeally.

Trying to keep this on-topic: For those of you who are newsgroup inclined, there is an alt.writing.scams. (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.writing.scams) Enjoy!

[KellyS.]

I just may die laughing. I agree with Lisa, we need an emoticon for that because the mental image is killing me.

Here ya go:

http://www.imghst.com/uploads/kelblend/spitsmilie.gif

I don't have stipid, but do have this: http://www.imghst.com/uploads/kelblend/lies.gif

and this one: http://www.imghst.com/uploads/kelblend/hopeless.gif

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

A side note: I really hope that Mem's exit from this board didn't have to do with the termination letter she said she was getting from PA. I have a hard time seeing Mem agreeing to a gag, so I hope she's gone for happier reasons of her own.An explanation for Mem's exit has already been posted here (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.writing.scams) (thanks, Bard!). As for her termination letter report (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=142251#post142251), that was just a brief April Fool's joke. She immediately followed it up (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=142261#post142261) with a post featuring an April Fool animated smiley and the words "If only it were true." Reeeeead caaaaarefully! ;)

In other thoughts... I wonder if the domain name "PublishAmericaIsMud.org" is taken?

[mdin]

From the thread in need of a BIC lesson (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11895.htm) comes this quote:Oh, wow. This just makes my head spin.

Cripes.

I don't want this to come across as author-bashing, but the fact this above mentioned author's scientific theory is being published by PA (and not a scientific journal or other scholarly publisher) is a testament to what PA really is.

If I'd never heard of PA at all or only heard glowing things about them, and I came across this book, I would have an immediate sour opinion. I only know a little about scholarly publishing--my brother is one of those smart science guys, and he gets papers published in those peer-reviewed journals now and then. I do know enough that PA was stupid to accept this book. If by chance anyone happens to notice this book, the online science community will be very vocal with their ridicule. They love stuff like this.

[mdin]

Oh, and I just saw the perfect smilie for PA:

http://www.absolutepunk.net/images/smilies/deal2.gif

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Oh, and I just saw the perfect smilie for PA:

http://www.absolutepunk.net/images/smilies/deal2.gifIt needs just a couple of things to make it perfect: a quill pen and a bottle of suspiciously viscous red ink.

[Lisa Y]

Oh, and I just saw the perfect smilie for PA:

http://www.absolutepunk.net/images/smilies/deal2.gif

I just tried pasting in the spitting smilie that KellyS posted earlier, but it didn't work!

[Galoot]

http://www.absolutepunk.net/images/smilies/deal2.gifTo be absolutely perfect, his hand should be moving vertically.

[mdin]

It needs just a couple of things to make it perfect: a quill pen and a bottle of suspiciously viscous red ink.

If I have time, maybe I'll make a few enhancements tomorrow or the next day.

[Patricia]

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8651.htm

[mdin]

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8651.htm

I think Bonnie should e-mail that guy and tell him about her experiences.

Bonnie's idea, if IIRC, was (is?) a gift shop that happened to sell some PA books. This is (yet again) a bookstore stocked entirely of nothing but PA books. It will have to be staffed, rent will have to be paid, utilities turned on. It's a financial tragedy just waiting to happen.

[Diana Hignutt]

...
Can't we refer to it as "pickling" instead, something about the term "we're pickling PA" really appeals to me...

Sure, let's call it pickling from now on. It resonates with me.

diana

[Diana Hignutt]

Christine, you may be able to say you knew her when but I will be able to sell my story of me being in her hotel room, drinking alcohol, and partying to the Enquirer.

Yeah, there we were reclining on the bed next to each other...darn, I knew that would come back to bite me. Still, I had fun.

diana

[MartyKay]

I wonder if PartnerAmerica is now hiring partners rather than employees?

Perhaps not hiring.

I worked for a lovely company for almost a year (before it went into liquidation). The company raised money from "investors", who were tapped on a regular basis to provide "seed money" for this company. In return, the investors were given sales type jobs for the company -- they would be given rudimentary training and would go and sell the services of the company. This was because of the huge "opportunity" the company offered when it's "nearly completed software" was done. Of course, that never happened, especially since the tax authorities and the corporate watchdogs decided to jump onto the case (investors who asked too many questions were not given the opportunity to invest...) -- the company folded soon after.

The point to this little interlude, is that perhaps these new "partners" have been sold the story that PA is a successful enterprise, and invested in it with both money and their own time. I wonder if these investors know anything about what they have sunk their funds into? Or this could be pure speculation.

[Aconite]

As for her termination letter report (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=142251#post142251), that was just a brief April Fool's joke. She immediately followed it up (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=142261#post142261) with a post featuring an April Fool animated smiley and the words "If only it were true." Reeeeead caaaaarefully! ;)

Thanks, Nicole. I never saw the edited post; it looks like she made the addition a few hours after the original post, and the thread had moved on by then. Good to know she's well.

[Sher2]

Perhaps not hiring.

I worked for a lovely company for almost a year (before it went into liquidation). The company raised money from "investors", who were tapped on a regular basis to provide "seed money" for this company. In return, the investors were given sales type jobs for the company -- they would be given rudimentary training and would go and sell the services of the company. This was because of the huge "opportunity" the company offered when it's "nearly completed software" was done. Of course, that never happened, especially since the tax authorities and the corporate watchdogs decided to jump onto the case (investors who asked too many questions were not given the opportunity to invest...) -- the company folded soon after.

The point to this little interlude, is that perhaps these new "partners" have been sold the story that PA is a successful enterprise, and invested in it with both money and their own time. I wonder if these investors know anything about what they have sunk their funds into? Or this could be pure speculation.
I believe you're right in that the new "partners" have invested money or time or both for their new positions. This is PA we're talking about -- they don't do anything altruistically. I very much doubt that the new crop of partners are unaware of the ill wind blowing through Poz, though. Janet has been around for quite some time and has signed her name to some very nasty epistles. She knows the climate. Whatever the incentive is for this new crop of partners, my hunch is that they'll be the ones left holding the bag when the bottom drops out.

[Ed Williams]

...in the Great and Mighty Land of Poz, and we find there the below referenced thread which discusses "How Do Successful Authors Do it":

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11895.htm

To which I'd love to add, "They get the hell away from PA just as soon as they possibly can!"

Some of my esteemed colleagues added the following:

Double X suggested this as the new PA avatar:

http://www.absolutepunk.net/images/smilies/deal2.gif

Not bad at all, I would add something of a graveyard motif in the background, signifying the literary death of any book submitted to and accepted by PA, the sure-to-be impending death of PA, and as a tribute to our two-time-dead-and-in-the-grave-friend Shemp.

Diana, my award winning and super cool colleague, slipped up and said the following in reference to the Kevster:

Yeah, there we were reclining on the bed next to each other...darn, I knew that would come back to bite me.Diana, you know I love ya, but some things I just do not need to hear before eating breakfast. I do hope you've had a tetanus shot recently, though.

The vivacious KellyS put up a bunch of avatars, but since she is the coolest amongst all who are cool, I will mention her anyway.

Finally, for your humble consideration, here is an avatar featuring a newly signed PA author's orientation program:

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-084.gif

Another day beckons us all, let us go forth and pickle PA in the most expeditious ways possible....

[Sher2]

Finally, for your humble consideration, here is an avatar featuring a newly signed PA author's orientation program:

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-084.gif

Another day beckons us all, let us go forth and pickle PA in the most expeditious ways possible....
Yep, that captures the essence of the orientation I went through, all right. :ROFL: Note to newbie PAers: During orientation, never ask Larry if that's a pickle in his pocket. :roll:

[Sparhawk]

I think Bonnie should e-mail that guy and tell him about her experiences.

Bonnie's idea, if IIRC, was (is?) a gift shop that happened to sell some PA books. This is (yet again) a bookstore stocked entirely of nothing but PA books. It will have to be staffed, rent will have to be paid, utilities turned on. It's a financial tragedy just waiting to happen.

I just don't get it? Maybe I'm missing something or maybe I'm just stupid.

1. Send me copies of your books to sell on consignment for this possible bookstore.

Again, here is the brilliance of the PA business model. Authors will buy their books from PA, get no royalties out of it because it's an Author purchase. Said Authors will then eat the cost of their books and absorb the shipping costs to send their books to this store in the hopes that people will frequent this store to buy their books.

Again. The PA sales staff is out in full force while PA sits back and earns the cash for a writers sweat and toil. PA gets is money up front with absolutly no risk.

What would happen if 10,000 writers each sent in 2 copies of their book to this store? Well, there's 20,000 books from unknown Authors (LIKE ME !!) that have no promotional force to push these books.

Also, how much does the proprieter of the book store take off the top to cover operating expenses of said store ??

My reply would be: Show me some more details before I commit anything, especially my money in the form of books and shipping costs.

On a happier note; Diane, my son did a report on XXXXXXXXXX yesterday for his English Class. HE gave your book 5 stars. You have a new fan. He said it was one of the best books he's ever read. I happen to agree with him. ;)

[MadScientistMatt]

I don't want this to come across as author-bashing, but the fact this above mentioned author's scientific theory is being published by PA (and not a scientific journal or other scholarly publisher) is a testament to what PA really is.

If I'd never heard of PA at all or only heard glowing things about them, and I came across this book, I would have an immediate sour opinion. I only know a little about scholarly publishing--my brother is one of those smart science guys, and he gets papers published in those peer-reviewed journals now and then. I do know enough that PA was stupid to accept this book. If by chance anyone happens to notice this book, the online science community will be very vocal with their ridicule. They love stuff like this.

I seem to remember jck commenting in another thread that neither the publishing establishment nor the scientific establishment would touch his book. He was commenting about how scientists would not accept his theories. Wish I could remember the thread but the PA board doesn't have a decent search engine. Meanwhile he comments about how he seems to only skim through quantum physics books without trying to fully understand them. I'm not sure any author bashing is necessary when his comments really speak for themselves.

You know, trying to find threads on the PA board makes me wonder if PA isn't planning another way to make money. Are they planning to introduce the world's first message board search feature to require entering a credit card number?

[James D. Macdonald]

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8651.htm

Oh, dear. No, I don't think anyone should tell him. Let him find out for himself that even if he gets his stock for free that non-returnable books cost him money in the form of the shelf-space that they take up. Let him learn on his own that nothing on earth can make people buy books they don't want. Let him find out for himself that bookselling even with reasonably priced books by known authors isn't a high-profit business.

He's playing with OPM -- Other People's Money. He's taking money from investors, he's taking money from authors (they bought the books, they paid shipping). What's he bringing to the table? Let it be the experience he's about to have.

This is what -- the third? fourth? bookstore that was going to be opened that specialized in PA books. The information that he needs is out here. Let him find out for himself why it's important to do research.

[DaveKuzminski]

I'm waiting for PA to have one of their shills announce a bookstore opening that's different from all the rest because it features a written contract guaranteeing virtually nothing just like PA. However, unknown to the authors, the books will be received by a PA rep who then fills PA author orders with their own recycled books. That way, PA can cut out the printing cost and screw one more victim.

[AnneMarble]

I got the March issue of Chronicle magazine (which describes itself as SF, Fantasy, & Horror's Monthly Trade Journal) in the mail yesterday. The second item from the top on the cover is:
"Writers
Expose
Vanity
Publisher"

The article inside is more than one-half a page. It also describes some guy called "the inimitable James Macdonald." :) However, it doesn't mention authorsmarket.net, instead saying the whole thing started because of "what could only be described as taunts on an Internet bulletin board."

[Sheryl Nantus]

I got the March issue of Chronicle magazine (which describes itself as SF, Fantasy, & Horror's Monthly Trade Journal) in the mail yesterday. The second item from the top on the cover is:
"Writers
Expose
Vanity
Publisher"

The article inside is more than one-half a page. It also describes some guy called "the inimitable James Macdonald." :) However, it doesn't mention authorsmarket.net, instead saying the whole thing started because of "what could only be described as taunts on an Internet bulletin board."

ooh... famous, we is.

fwiw, that author who believes that her book is going to be stocked everywhere - the original post is up at Authors Den in their forum. I posted a reply, but nothing yet.

as you can probably guess I pointed out a few 'orrible facts of life.

the sadder thing is that she's a disabled single mother - another victim of PublishAmerica.

:Headbang:

[James D. Macdonald]

fwiw, that author who believes that her book is going to be stocked everywhere - the original post is up at Authors Den in their forum. I posted a reply, but nothing yet.


She saw "available" and read "stocked." Exactly as PA intended.

[DaveKuzminski]

She saw "available" and read "stocked." Exactly as PA intended.




PA should be forced to append "to order" to what they state so that there's less confusion. However, I doubt that will come to pass.

[Sher2]

PA should be forced to append "to order" to what they state so that there's less confusion. However, I doubt that will come to pass.
Never happen. The "A" in PA is for ambiguity. :Smack:

[MadScientistMatt]

PublishAmbiguity? That's another nickname with some real potential, particularly for manuscripts that could be cleared up a little with a good editor. How many other names have we given them?

PublishAnyone
PublishEveryoneInAmerica
PimpAmerica

[Sher2]

PublishAmbiguity? That's another nickname with some real potential, particularly for manuscripts that could be cleared up a little with a good editor. How many other names have we given them?

PublishAnyone
PublishEveryoneInAmerica
PimpAmerica
Let us not forget PunishAmerica and PrintAnything.;)

[robeiae]

She saw "available" and read "stocked." Exactly as PA intended.

Well, to leap to PA's defense, the FAQ page on their site does say:
Bookstores do not automatically put a book on their shelves. All stores have full access to our books, but in order to actually stock them, they must be convinced that the book will sell. Author: there is work to be done!
Of course, you would have to go look for this, but I am sure it is sufficient, legallly speaking, to keep them out of trouble.

To follow this tangent for a second, the PA practive of using language to deceive the unwary but also having the "truth" somewhere in its documentations/advertising is far to common in many, many industries. This suggests that proper research is always needed before agreeing to any kind of contractual arrangement or even general purchase. I note this only because you would hope that writers, of all people, knew the importance of research. Of course, when you have supposed writers spouting off about quantum theory but admitting to knowing little about it, this is obviously only a pipe dream...

Rob

I grow tired of Animal House (mostly because I can't remember any more lines). How about this:

Sandy: Carl,I want you to kill all the gooferson the course!
Carl: Check me if I'm wrong Sandy, but if I kill all the golfers, they're gonna lock me up and throw away the key!
Sandy: Oooopth! Not goofers man, GOOFERS!...the little brown furry things!
Carl: Oh, we can do that...we don't even need a reason!
Sandy: Aiy, do it man!
Carl: Okay, let's do the same thing but with gophers.

[keltora]

Just have to speak up for slower writers here...BIC is essential, but it may not result in a book a year. Or even a book in two years. Not everyone is able to write that fast. Nor is writing that fast essential for success (though it certianly helps). Many successful authors publish at intervals of several years.

- Victoria

Yeah, YMMV should have been at the end of my lecture.:Sun:

[Ed Williams]

Patently

Amoral...


Also, on the "PA Authors Only Bookstore" thread, it seems a little reality is coming into play, witness these remarks:

Do you have a business plan established for your bookstore with a five year forward profit and loss statement and balance sheet projection? Have your partners performed market research regarding the demand of POD books in a POD only book store? I ask this because there will be significant competiton to such an establishment from the existing BRick and Mortar establishments. You would be competing with bookstores that carry well known authors with a large, already established readership. Your potential target market and product offering will require, in my opinion as a Business Analyst, a substantial investment in up front promotional costs to market your product.The entire thread is here:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8651.htm


"Well, the Sister was right. You boys could
use a little churching up. Slide on down to
the Triple Rock, and catch Rev. Cleophus.
You boys listen to what he's got to say!"

[Sher2]

Patently

Amoral...



Oh, be still, my heart! That one truly rocks and resonates me. Where's the tee-shirt designer? I'll buy the first one.:)

[keltora]

Well, to leap to PA's defense, the FAQ page on their site does say:

Bookstores do not automatically put a book on their shelves. All stores have full access to our books, but in order to actually stock them, they must be convinced that the book will sell. Author: there is work to be done!

It should be noted that this is not what their page originally said. They have changed many things in the wake of getting their collective fannies whacked by media coverage.

[James D. Macdonald]

Bookstores do not automatically put a book on their shelves. All stores have full access to our books, but in order to actually stock them, they must be convinced that the book will sell. Author: there is work to be done!

That's a victory for our side. Formerly they didn't mention it at all.

[Christine N.]

PublishAmbiguity? That's another nickname with some real potential, particularly for manuscripts that could be cleared up a little with a good editor. How many other names have we given them?

PublishAnyone
PublishEveryoneInAmerica
PimpAmerica

Personally, I like Prettybig A**hol*s

[Sher2]

It should be noted that this is not what their page originally said. They have changed many things in the wake of getting their collective fannies whacked by media coverage.
So true. There have been times in recent months when various verbiage has changed more than once within a matter of hours.

Laura, I'm thinking of changing my siggie to "When I die, I wanna be a hillbilly vampire.":)

[robeiae]

Patently Amoral...

Or:

Putzes Abound
Particularly Abusive
Putrid A*******

[Sher2]

Personally, I like Prettybig A**hol*s
I like it, Christine! That one would resonate really nicely on a tee-shirt, too.;)

[Sher2]

Or:

Putzes Abound
Particularly Abusive
Putrid A*******
Stop! It's too hard to read dry old work stuff with one eye and this stuff with the other and keep a straight face. You're gonna get me busted.;)

[robeiae]

That's a victory for our side. Formerly they didn't mention it at all.

Also, don't forget the last line...
...they must be convinced that the book will sell. Author: there is work to be done!

Yes authors, there is work to be done! By who, you ask? Well certainly not by us, we're just the publishers!!

Rob

[Sassenach]

The old Neil Young song 'Helpless' keeps running through my brain when I read the PA boards...except I change the title to 'Clueless'. [Sorry if that sounds snide...it's just that I can't believe how ill-informed/misinformed some of these poor folks are.] How else to make sense of a writer not knowing what genre her book is, or being surprised to learn that there's a 'Christian fiction' market, or sending out press releases before galleys are received, etc. It's so sad.

[DaveKuzminski]

Well, to leap to PA's defense, the FAQ page on their site does say:

Of course, you would have to go look for this, but I am sure it is sufficient, legallly speaking, to keep them out of trouble.


Not according to their contract which states that anything outside the contract has no bearing.

They can't have it both ways with them picking and choosing which applies at any given time.

[AnneMarble]

How else to make sense of a writer not knowing what genre her book is, or being surprised to learn that there's a 'Christian fiction' market...

I missed that one. There was a PA author who didn't realize there was a market for Christian fiction? :( All you have to do is walk into many Wal-Marts, and you'll see a whole section devoted to Christian books, including some novels.

Sometimes the cluelessness comes from on top, however. Shortly after iUniverse first came into being, a guy joined my mailing list to promote his romance novel. He had probably never read a romance novel before, but iUniverse told him he had written a romance novel, so he came on our list (and probably others) to publicize it. However, it turned out that... the heroine died at the end!!! :faint: That just does not happen in romance novels. iUniverse probably thought that if it had a love story, that made it a romance novel -- so that's how they marketed it.

Then there was the author who e-mailed a copy of her novel to me (without asking me if I wanted it) because her publisher told her she should send her novel to important people in the industry to get cover quotes. :Smack:

[James D. Macdonald]

How else to make sense of a writer not knowing what genre her book is, or being surprised to learn that there's a 'Christian fiction' market, or sending out press releases before galleys are received, etc.

Well, the practice of deleting posts/banning authors who do make sense has to have something to do with that.

New writers are cute as a basket of kittens and just as helpless. That's why older, more experienced writers get ticked off with the scammers who make their living by taking advantage of the newbies. We all know how vulnerable we ourselves were back when we got started.

[James D. Macdonald]

Sometimes the cluelessness comes from on top, however. Shortly after iUniverse first came into being...

I remember when the guys who founded iUniverse showed up at SFF.net, back when they were just getting started. They quite literally had never seen a publishing contract before Lawrence Watt-Evans and I typed a couple in for them.

[clintl]

I remember when the guys who founded iUniverse showed up at SFF.net, back when they were just getting started. They quite literally had never seen a publishing contract before Lawrence Watt-Evans and I typed a couple in for them.

That's pretty funny. Several years ago, when "digital printing" had become a viable technology, I had an idea for a publishing venture that I ended up deciding was not viable (at least the way I conceived it at the time). But I at least had the good sense to ask one of my writer friends if I could look at a copy of one of her contracts, and to ask several writers about what terms they felt were in contracts that were unfair to writers.

[AC Crispin]

Hi, just a message for those who have signed up to be part of Phase Two of THE PROJECT. (And it's not too late! Vic, could you please post my original message again?)

I'm currently waiting on some vital info from Writer Beware's Attorney. As soon as I receive it, I'll be forging ahead, and you'll all hear from me.

Best,

-Ann C. Crispin
Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com (http://www.writerbeware.com)
Author: STORMS OF DESTINY/HarperEos
www.accrispin.com (http://www.accrispin.com)

[Uncarved]

count me in Ann, my email is on this site.

[realitychuck]

It occurred to me that the percentage of PA authors who have successful PA books is roughly equivalent to the percentage of all authors who submit to regular publishers.

A regular publisher may accept 1% of manuscripts (for the sake of argument), but 100% of those make money for the author.

PA accepts 100% of manuscripts, but 1% go on to be "successful." (Enough to make money for the author -- though even the most successful PA author has probably earned far less than an average author at a "traditional" publisher.)

Further, the 99% of manuscripts the regular publisher rejects only costs the author postage, ink, and paper. The manuscripts PA accepts cost their authors considerably more, both in money and effort.

So your chances of success are roughly the same, and the regular publisher is going to cost you less money, require less work, and earn you more.

[Crystal Rivers]

I was going to suggest PleaseAnswer for PA's name. Try to get them to reply in a timely manner when you have a problem. It takes forever for them to resolve issues, as well as to give you passwords, put your picture on the board, etc.

Anyway, here's another stinkin' thinkin' link :Lecture: . http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11898.htm

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Thanks, Nicole. I never saw the edited post; it looks like she made the addition a few hours after the original post, and the thread had moved on by then. Good to know she's well.She is apparently not only well, but has offered me a brownie for my troubles. I hear things about her brownies, though... does she make any of 'em unleaded? I mean, chocolate chips yes, but other, erm, fillings, perhaps we could leave out? Just for me? ;)

[DaveKuzminski]

Anyway, here's another stinkin' thinkin' link :Lecture: . http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11898.htm

Gee, she didn't say where. I wonder why.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Patently

Amoral...


Also, on the "PA Authors Only Bookstore" thread, it seems a little reality is coming into play, witness these remarks:

The entire thread is here:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8651.htm







actually, I liked the post where it's now not the PA Author's store, but his "friend's"...

:Ssh:

and yet they're still talking about Bonnie's store and no one has bothered to contact her and see how THAT concept is working...

truly, the blind leading the blind...

[Sheryl Nantus]

Gee, she didn't say where. I wonder why.

anyone wanna invite here over HERE?

we got lots of "real" authors!

:ROFL:

[Crystal Rivers]

If I hear the phrase "Everything was CLEARLY OUTLINED IN MY CONTRACT" as a defense of PA one more time, I'm going to blow chunks. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteSmack.gif (I'm new. Am I allowed to say that.) http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteSsh.gif

[MadScientistMatt]

More from the All PA, All the Time bookstore thread:

As conceived, will the bookstore be completely devoted to PA authors or will we be competing with writers from major publishing companies?

If the former, I"m in.

One way or another, there isn't much avoiding competing with writers from major publishing companies if you have a real book store. I have to wonder how many people would actually walk into a PublishAmerica Factory Outlet more often than once or twice, particularly if they happened to pick up a book where the writer had chosen the "no editing" option.

[Sher2]

If I hear the phrase "Everything was CLEARLY OUTLINED IN MY CONTRACT" as a defense of PA one more time, I'm going to blow chunks. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteSmack.gif (I'm new. Am I allowed to say that.) http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteSsh.gif
You're not only allowed to say it, but there's a blowing chunks smilie floating around here somewhere.;)

[lindylou45]

Originally Posted by Ed Williams
...
Can't we refer to it as "pickling" instead, something about the term "we're pickling PA" really appeals to me...

PickleAnyone -- works for me!

[Ed Williams]

...but I will offer a graphic to underline your sentiments:
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/wuerg/vomit-smiley-015.gif

I think a translation is in order here as well, from PAese into regular English. Whenever you hear any PA author say,

"Everything was CLEARLY OUTLINED IN MY CONTRACT"It actually means:

"I was just as snookered in as you were, but I'm not going to admit it, so I'll act as if I knew things were this way all along."

Your friendly Director of AW Translation Services,

E3

[lindylou45]

[QUOTE=Ed WilliamsFinally, for your humble consideration, here is an avatar featuring a newly signed PA author's orientation program:

[/QUOTE]

Heck, they made me climb a ladder into the vat of acid! :Wha:

[Sassenach]

The idea of a PA-only bookstore is so patently absurd that it's hard to read those posts without wanting to swing a giant clue bat.

[DaveKuzminski]

Maybe we should come up with a 12-step program for PA general partners? ;)

[MadScientistMatt]

The idea of a PA-only bookstore is so patently absurd that it's hard to read those posts without wanting to swing a giant clue bat.

If they opened such a store, some of the authors just might get hit with that giant clue bat anyway.

[Sher2]

PickleAnyone -- works for me!
One more for the list -- is it permissible to say PissAnt Publishing in public? :roll:

[MadScientistMatt]

Maybe we should come up with a 12-step program for PA general partners? ;)

Unfortunately, they would never get past Step 1 if you patterned it after other 12 step programs. The first step would have to be "Admit that you're a vanity press."

[PixelFish]

Okay, I'm scratching my head at this statement from one of the PA threads. (This one actually: http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8651.htm )

The quote is this:

"...but in this day and age of high cost living (especially in California) it is hard for the working man/woman to be able to afford high priced books. (books over 4-5 dollars)"

Considering that my average paperback seems to run about 5.99-7.99, and the only time I drop below four dollars is when I raid the used book stores, I'm thinking this person is in for a huge sticker shock when they realise that PA is pricing books at well over industry standard.

They have a point though (even if they don't have their numbers right)--the average person isn't going to shell out of a high-priced book. Particularly one with dubious production values.

[Diana Hignutt]

If I hear the phrase "Everything was CLEARLY OUTLINED IN MY CONTRACT" as a defense of PA one more time, I'm going to blow chunks. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteSmack.gif (I'm new. Am I allowed to say that.) http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteSsh.gif

You and me, both, Crystal. I hate following those links. I just hate it. But, I can't stop myself...

I feel so sorry for those authors.

diana

[lindylou45]

Well, to leap to PA's defense, the FAQ page on their site does say:

Quote:
Bookstores do not automatically put a book on their shelves. All stores have full access to our books, but in order to actually stock them, they must be convinced that the book will sell. Author: there is work to be done!


That was added in July of last year. It wasn't there when I signed my contract.

[Sher2]

Maybe we should come up with a 12-step program for PA general partners? ;)
I don't think they could be trusted to do the steps, Dave. Perhaps they'd do better in a strictly controlled environment. Some place like Camp Cupcake comes to mind.;)

[lindylou45]

Patently

Amoral...




Perfectly Apropos

[Sher2]

You and me, both, Crystal. I hate following those links. I just hate it. But, I can't stop myself...

I feel so sorry for those authors.

diana
It's kind of like an accident scene -- you know it's bad, and you really don't want to see it because you know it will give you nightmares, but you have to look.;)

[Patricia]

The idea of a PA-only bookstore is so patently absurd that it's hard to read those posts without wanting to swing a giant clue bat.

In defense of Bonnie -- when she queried all of us before opening her store, the biggest majority of us were still in the early stages of production or release. We were not aware of the full scope of the nightmare. We supported Bonnie and offered consignment books to jump-start her. Her bookstore has never been exclusively PA. I, for one, wish her the very best -- her heart was right and she wanted to help. She no longer takes PA books.

PA further sullied the whole thing by sending her some books, which only made the hopeless venture seem more plausible. Very cleaver of them.

[lindylou45]

Personally, I like Prettybig A**hol*s

How about: Pernicious A**hats :banana:

(Thanks goes to Kelly S. for my new favorite curse word!) :Hail:

[ResearchGuy]

If I hear the phrase "Everything was CLEARLY OUTLINED IN MY CONTRACT" as a defense of PA one more time, I'm going to blow chunks. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteSmack.gif (I'm new. Am I allowed to say that.) http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteSsh.gif
That wording reminds me of what I see from company shills on a stock message board I have followed for years. Makes me wonder how many of those posting the "clearly outlined" phrasing are outright PA shills.

--Ken

[Sassenach]

Ann, I'm speaking strictly of the idea of a PA-only shop. It would seem that anyone who's visited a commercial bookstore would realize that the idea of a shop selling books from a single house is, well...implausible.

[Crystal Rivers]

...but I will offer a graphic to underline your sentiments:
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/wuerg/vomit-smiley-015.gif


Thanks, Ed, for the appropriate graphic. I like it! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteHug2.gif

[Patricia]

Ann, I'm speaking strictly of the idea of a PA-only shop. It would seem that anyone who's visited a commercial bookstore would realize that the idea of a shop selling books from a single house is, well...implausible.

I thought as much Sass -- just wanted it clear for Bonnie's sake. :)

[Sher2]

How about: Pernicious A**hats :banana:

(Thanks goes to Kelly S. for my new favorite curse word!) :Hail:
One of my new favorites, too.:) (I'm doing 12-step for involuntary swearing)

One more for the list:
PathologicallyAsinine

[lindylou45]

[COLOR=Navy]One of my new favorites, too.:) (I'm doing 12-step for involuntary swearing)

Just tell people you have Tourette's Syndrome. Works for me! :Thumbs:

[Sher2]

Just tell people you have Tourette's Syndrome. Works for me! :Thumbs:
Effin' good excuse! Damn, why didn't I think of that? Ooops, I just cursed again. I'm going back to "Wild Kingdom." :Smack:

[ResearchGuy]

actually, I liked the post where it's now not the PA Author's store, but his "friend's"...
...truly, the blind leading the blind...
Did you notice THIS jewel?

"It was my idea a few years ago to have STBX or Blockbuster, as I had suggested the concepts to others, so those freinds [sic] who are now investors asked me for new ideas."

So, this guy is claiming credit for the "idea" of Starbucks and of Blockbuster, and now his new "idea" is an all PublishAmerica bookstore. I hope that he and his investor "freinds" (sic) do very well. But is it completely off base to suspect some, shall we say, "issues"?


--Ken

[underthecity]

Ann, I'm speaking strictly of the idea of a PA-only shop. It would seem that anyone who's visited a commercial bookstore would realize that the idea of a shop selling books from a single house is, well...implausible.
Not only implausible, but talk about putting all your eggs in one basket! When PA goes out of business (and oh yes, they WILL go out of business) so does the bookstore. You'll never see another bookstore that sells books from just one company. If say, Random House for instance, suddenly folded, any normal bookstore will be fine since that store carries books from hundreds of publishers, not just Random House.

There's an economics/marketing term that refers to offering customers a choice of one product versus just one product, but I never took any courses like that to know what it is. Anyone know the term? It's like when you go into your grocery store and see Coke, Pepsi, Big K, etc. All these products do the exact same thing, but all have different flavors and appeal to different consumers.

A bookstore that carries books by just one publisher won't be effectively serving the customer. With all due respect, this store will be carrying "generic" brand books. Instead of Stephen King books, it'll carry horror novels that are trying so hard to be Stephen King, but aren't. No Harlequin romances, just generic equivalents. No Michael Crichton technothrillers, just books by authors who wish they could be Crichton, but aren't. These books will look similar, but they won't "taste" the same, nor will they have the same quality.

It's a concept doomed to failure.

underthecity

[Kevin Yarbrough]

You were reclining, I was horizontal. Honey, I can word it so many ways that I could put PA to shame. I won't lie, just not tell everything.

Kevin: And there we were, on the bed. She was reclining back and I was horizontal."
Enquirer: What happened next?
Kevin: She was all over that bed man, it was great.

You see, I didn't lie. I just left out that you were laying back on the bed and I was sitting up, and that you were moving around the bed to make room for other people to sit down.

[Patricia]

It's a concept doomed to failure.

Absolutely, without a doubt.

[DeePower]

The PublishAmerica contract does not say that their books will be stocked in bookstores, but neither do any of my other three publishing contracts. My other publisher's business model is to get my books (and of course the books of their other authors) into bookstores and out the door in the hands of readers. Publish America's business model is to sell the author their own books. PA has effectively set up road blocks that make quite sure that bookstores won't stock PA books.

The PublishAmerica contract does not guarantee that any marketing will be done, but the language certainly implies that PA will market the author's book. My other three publishing contracts don't guarantee any marketing either, but our new book has co-op advertising dollars available, is being advertised in several publishing, bookselling, and library publications. Radio interviews and TV interviews are being set up. And more.

The Publish America contract includes language that says I can audit my royalties as do my other three contracts. But PA refuses to even acknowledge any questions from me. They have not sent royalty statements for the past two periods with no explanation and refuse to respond to any of my questions. Other PA authors have questioned their statements and have been rudely chastizsd and lied to. When I have asked a question about royalties from my other publishers I received an immediate response, usually a phone call that same day. A polite immediate explanation.

The PA contract does not mandate that the author has to do all the marketing, it does not say that the author is responsible for getting their own book in bookstores. Where does this drivel come from?

Dee

[Kevin Yarbrough]

I think PA stands for Porthole Autocrat. Since it is run by people who are "ruler(s) with absolute power and have a huge opening in their a s s."

[robeiae]

Anyway, here's another stinkin' thinkin' link :Lecture: . http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11898.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11898.htm [/QUOTE)

Not being a published author, I can't be sure I'm right about this but...
It seems that many PA authors have the very unhealthy habit of viewing themselves as PA Authors. I don't think published authors, in general, have any great loyalty to their publishers; if they did, you would never see them changing publishers (sometimes for specific issues with a particualr product). Even POD authors switch companies from time to time. What would seem to be a major difference between PA and everyone else, in my limited experience, is actually the existence of the author message boards at PA. Their very existence serves to create the unusual solidarity the afflicts the authors there. New authors jump on, throwing up (no pun intended) marketing ideas and other suggestions. Other new authors say "Great Idea" or "Thanks" or "Count me in", none knowing that the ideas have been hashed and re-hashed by the old-timers who, when they begin to break ranks, are banned. An ugly pattern, but one that seems difficult to break. Why? No matter how much info is out there about how bad PA is, these boards continue to run; it's not that they are necassarily populated by people like our old friend who spout the company line; rather, it the fact that they create a communal feelings among the authors-simple friendship, in the end, can override common sense.

Rob

[Patricia]

:) Seems some unwittingly dispute PA's "traditional" standards.

Peruse again.

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11898.htm

[realitychuck]

I do like this from that thread:

It seems that some PA authors must read something into the contract that is not there. No. We are reading what IS there -- and indicating that there is plenty of room for fraud and disappointment (items that PA is all to happy to supply.)

[Literary Lola]

Maybe we should come up with a 12-step program for PA general partners? ;)
Marvelous idea, Dave.

Step 1: Go jump off a cliff and spare novice writers the trouble of being fleeced.

[Christine N.]

Yeah, Shelagh (if I spelled that wrong, I'm sorry!) really put her foot in her mouth with that one. Or perhaps she knows the real deal, and is happy with it.


Hey, I submitted my query electronically, my ms.... well, no, I actually mailed that. I'm not sure how my proofs will come, since I haven't gotten them yet, but another book that I was a part of by the same publisher, the proofs came electronically.

I love technology, saves alot of paper. But my book will still be in stores! And I won't have to do the work to put them there.

[ResearchGuy]

...It seems that many PA authors have the very unhealthy habit of viewing themselves as PA Authors....
That has finally moved me to post link to:
http://www.umbachconsulting.com/drafts/PublishingsAlternateUniverse.pdf
(use username hidden and password flatulence--good until I change one or the other or both). That is my essay on the phenomenon discussed on this board. I had thought about looking for an outlet for it, but it is probably too idiosyncratic for any periodical I can think of, certainly for any paying one. In any event, it distills what I had observed before joining this board. Nothing I have read here has changed my views.

The username and password, by the way, were simply random words that popped into my head (Dr. Freud, call your office?) on the spur of the moment.

--Ken

[underthecity]

Check out this thread one more time (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11898.htm), and read post #5. That's us!

Once again, another poster sees nothing past the "bashing." Nothing. Eyes closed, ears covered. Doesn't want to know about it.

Sigh.

Then there's post #6.

utc

[Sheryl Nantus]

Check out this thread one more time (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11898.htm), and read post #5. That's us!

Once again, another poster sees nothing past the "bashing." Nothing. Eyes closed, ears covered. Doesn't want to know about it.

Sigh.

Then there's post #6.

utc

the ignorance is astounding, isn't it?

and if they only came here and POSTED, instead of slinking away in their lurker mode to whine on their censored boards, we'd be able to give them the right answers...

hear that?

yep, PA authors - we ain't going to DELETE YOUR POSTS if we don't like what you say. We're not going to BAN YOU FROM THE BOARD if you disagree with us.

now try to post THAT on the PA boards and see how long it stays up.

pity.

[Sher2]

Check out this thread one more time (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11898.htm), and read post #5. That's us!

Once again, another poster sees nothing past the "bashing." Nothing. Eyes closed, ears covered. Doesn't want to know about it.

Sigh.

Then there's post #6.

utc
Okay, you made me look.

I think, and I have always thought, that those folks are misinformed as to the definition of "bashing." In my opinion, bashing is making unkind and hurtful remarks, gestures, and actions towards a person or group of persons. What's happening here on this board is discussion -- discussion of a rogue company that bears close scrutiny. That's why it's categorized under "Bewares." This company lies to people, takes advantage of people, and hurts people. It's hurting those people, the ones over there on the Poz boards, but they're too naive to see it. We're not hurting them or threatening them. The aim here is to help them, because they don't know enough to help themselves. It just makes my blood boil when someone is too self-righteous and insulated and -- dare I say it? -- cultish, to accept help when it's offered.

I may start swearing again. I'll try to stay away from sailors, though.;)

[Patricia]

Okay, you made me look.

I think, and I have always thought, that those folks are misinformed as to the definition of "bashing."

Sher, the phase was made popular by he "who no longer lives." :crazy:

[Sparhawk]

How truly blind is the person who refuses to see that which is right in front of him.

Or... You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

Or... Ignorance is bliss.


The post for or the business plan for this bookstore was mine, because I am generally interested in seeijng the list of revenue assumptions and well as the assumed expenses. There is so much involved in this kind of undertaking AND I cannot empahcize how all of the "i",s have to be dotted and the "t"'s need to be crossed.

If so many people contribute their books, which in my mind equates to investment capital, they will be the only ones hurt when the establishment goes belly up. IF the store is in debt to creditors than those books are considered viable, tangible assets that can be liquidated to cover accrued debt. Which means the writer who contributed the book loses his investment and then the only entity making a profit will be the publisher... the Authors get the proverbial shaft. PA or NOT, I can't in good conscious not post what I did. I've seen it happen to too many associates, they get involved in a dream, wind up investing hard earned dollars only to get torpedoed when it comes to light that the "Entrepenuer" failed perform the proper due diligence. I've seen some good people lose their savings and one person their home on bad investments.

I don't want to see some poor writer geting excited over what I feel is a bad business prospect only to lose their books and their money. They're already involved in one bad business decision, why compound an error in judgement with another one.

-Sparhawk

[DeePower]

So I might as well say it. Did you ever think that, perhaps, one of the posters was trying to get PA authors over here?

Check out this thread one more time (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11898.htm), and read post #5. That's us!

Dee

[Kate Nepveu]

Dear all, within the last few weeks, someone here posted a reference to finding his or her own PA book in a bookstore without having spoken to the manager about it, and said something about still not knowing how that happened.

Who/where was that? You don't need to repost the information, just give me a username or a link.

Thanks.

[Sheryl Nantus]

How truly blind is the person who refuses to see that which is right in front of him.

Or... You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

Or... Ignorance is bliss.


The post for or the business plan for this bookstore was mine, because I am generally interested in seeijng the list of revenue assumptions and well as the assumed expenses. There is so much involved in this kind of undertaking AND I cannot empahcize how all of the "i",s have to be dotted and the "t"'s need to be crossed.

If so many people contribute their books, which in my mind equates to investment capital, they will be the only ones hurt when the establishment goes belly up. IF the store is in debt to creditors than those books are considered viable, tangible assets that can be liquidated to cover accrued debt. Which means the writer who contributed the book loses his investment and then the only entity making a profit will be the publisher... the Authors get the proverbial shaft. PA or NOT, I can't in good conscious not post what I did. I've seen it happen to too many associates, they get involved in a dream, wind up investing hard earned dollars only to get torpedoed when it comes to light that the "Entrepenuer" failed perform the proper due diligence. I've seen some good people lose their savings and one person their home on bad investments.

I don't want to see some poor writer geting excited over what I feel is a bad business prospect only to lose their books and their money. They're already involved in one bad business decision, why compound an error in judgement with another one.

-Sparhawk

this comment here floored me: "Having said that I am willing to show you how to stock the shop without books and use merchandise for profit. I will also show you how to attract customers by providing a free service."

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how that could be done.

and the fact that no one seems to be willing, other than yourself, to call the instigator on the cold hard facts.

*shakes head*

[Patricia]

So I might as well say it. Did you ever think that, perhaps, one of the posters was trying to get PA authors over here?

Check out this thread one more time (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11898.htm), and read post #5. That's us!

Dee

...and I think poster number 3 is making a good point too!

[AnneMarble]

So I might as well say it. Did you ever think that, perhaps, one of the posters was trying to get PA authors over here?

Check out this thread one more time (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11898.htm), and read post #5. That's us!

I wondered about that because he said nice things about the rest of the board.

I can imagine VoldePrint executives -- what do they have by now, a dozen? ;) -- reading his post and arguing about whether or not to delete it.

"We have to remove it and ban him. He mentioned the Board That Must Not Be Named."

"But he did not mention it by name. And he said bad things about the bashers."

"But he said good things about the board. It is written that one must never speaketh good about the board."

Is it just me, or do they start to sound like village elders in the movie "The Village," only without the compassion and concern? Actually maybe the PA message board is a lot like that movie. Maybe AW is the forest where they weren't allowed, and we are the creatures they have gotten everybody stirred up about.

Look, I'm posting in the bad color. :Headbang:
:wag:

[Sher2]

Sher, the phase was made popular by he "who no longer lives." :crazy:
Oh, I know it, honey. That Undead thing was sucking the life out of people long before he croaked.

[Sher2]

Is it just me, or do they start to sound like village elders in the movie "The Village," only without the compassion and concern? Actually maybe the PA message board is a lot like that movie. Maybe AW is the forest where they weren't allowed, and we are the creatures they have gotten everybody stirred up about.

That's exactly what it sounds like, Anne. You've nailed it perfectly.:Clap:

[ResearchGuy]

... Or... Ignorance is bliss....

Folks tend to forget (or never learned) the context:

"Thought would destroy their paradise!
No more; where ignorance is bliss,
'Tis folly to be wise."

(Thomas Gray, 1716-71, "Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College")

--Ken (with thanks to The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations + http://www.bartleby.com/40/286.html, to which I suggest a visit for the whole poem)

[Galoot]

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11898.htmLet me translate post #9.

La-la-la-la-la http://img47.exs.cx/img47/1671/coverears2co.gif I can't hear you!

[Sher2]

Let me translate post #9.

La-la-la-la-la http://img47.exs.cx/img47/1671/coverears2co.gif I can't hear you!
In the absence of the Official Translator, let me just say I read you loud and clear.;) It's like the universal language -- la-la-la-la-la.

[Sassenach]

"It was my idea a few years ago to have STBX or Blockbuster, as I had suggested the concepts to others, so those freinds [sic] who are now investors asked me for new ideas."

So, this guy is claiming credit for the "idea" of Starbucks and of Blockbuster, and now his new "idea" is an all PublishAmerica bookstore. I hope that he and his investor "freinds" (sic) do very well. But is it completely off base to suspect some, shall we say, "issues"?



Stores...selling coffee...a whole bunch of them. Wait!! I thought of that a while back, but I forgot to tell anyone.

[lucyishome]

Stores...selling coffee...a whole bunch of them. Wait!! I thought of that a while back, but I forgot to tell anyone.



Thats kind of like Al Gore invented the internet.

:hi:

[astonwest]

Step 1: Go jump off a cliff and spare novice writers the trouble of being fleeced.
Errrr, you forgot steps 2-12...
Although, they all read the same:

Step 2: Repeat as necessary.
Step 3: Repeat...
...

;)

Dear all, within the last few weeks, someone here posted a reference to finding his or her own PA book in a bookstore without having spoken to the manager about it, and said something about still not knowing how that happened.

Who/where was that? You don't need to repost the information, just give me a username or a link.
Not sure if you're talking about this one or not...but I'll reiterate what I said in the original post, that the store in question closed down. I haven't gone across town to the other B. Dalton to see if it was transferred or not.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=146355#post146355

[reph]

From a post on the thread most recently cited:

It just doesn't make any sense to me. Surely, if
authors are so keen to see their books on
shelves, they should have persisted with
finding a traditional publisher.
I find all this whinging more than slightly
irritating.
But tomorrow is another day and I will have
forgotten all about it and start a new day
afresh!

How do PA authors remain happy with their publisher? There you have it. Dementia!

Okay, now, different topic: bashing. Presenting facts isn't bashing, but that's not all that happens here at The Thread That Doesn't Officially Exist. I can see how "bashing" might apply to ridiculing the owners of PA and making up derogatory nicknames.

[astonwest]

Thats kind of like Al Gore invented the internet.

I thought up the idea of "automated" postage centers, where one could avoid standing in Post Office lines just to get a letter weighed and stamped...too bad I didn't patent that one...sigh.

In reference to the PA thread linked:

If you self-publish, you are just being robbed. I had two or three wanting me to pay them THOUSANDS of dollars to print my work! Not in this lifetime!!!! PA is good. I'm happy.

Methinks someone is confusing self-publishing with vanity publishing...

[James D. Macdonald]

That has finally moved me to post link to:
http://www.umbachconsulting.com/drafts/PublishingsAlternateUniverse.pdf


You talk about the "contempt" with which the subsidy books are viewed by reviewers, libraries, and bookstores.

The ultimate root of that is the contempt that the readers show for those books. Readers drive this industry. If readers suddenly developed a taste for unedited slush the bookstores would be filled with it by next week.

[robeiae]

Stores...selling coffee...a whole bunch of them. Wait!! I thought of that a while back, but I forgot to tell anyone.

Actually, thinking something up is the easy part; I know people who actually thought of these kinds of things before they happened. It's the actual doing that's hard, i.e coming up with a workable business model and plan, getting financing, etc.

Imagine, if you will, two erstwhile seekers of fame and fortune:
We should create a publishing company that will allow anyone to get published without charging them an upfront fee.
What a great idea, but is it workable.
Only if we can devise a way to suck the money out of the authors after we publish their book.
Hmmm...
Hmmm...

And the rest, as they say, is history!

Rob

[Galoot]

"I don't like Wal-Mart" and "I don't like Wal-Mart staff or patrons" are not equivalent statements.

"I don't like PA" and "I don't like PA authors" are also not equivalent.

[PVish]

According to one of the posters on the PA board, "If you self-publish, you are just being robbed."

Uh, not necessarily.

I made a four-figure profit by self-pubbing my novel. However, I knew my market and I researched options. I had a lot of input with the printer I finally chose. Plus this novel had won a regional contest, and part of my self-pubbing cost was underwritten by the grant I received.

My novel was workshopped through my writers group, some of whom taught college English. Heck, I'm a college English teacher myself. I did have six errors in the first press run (1,000, which sold out) but I fixed the five I could find when I ran the second thousand). Even after doing a second press run, my profit is still in the four-figure range.

My self-pubbed book has not only made money, but has been studied by regional bookclubs, been shelved at several independent bookstores, received favorable reviews in regional (and one national) publication and sold well over a thousand copies. Oh yeah, two Barnes & Noble stores have contacted me to order copies.

I'd say my self-published book did a heckuva lot better than the average PA book. Better, even, than most of the above-average PA books!

Sheesh! When are some of the PAers going to stop bashing us self-published authors?

PVish

[Patricia]

OK, gang, I’ll try to shed some light on the “ignorance” of the PA writers. From my own experience, this is what I can tell you. While I was still an active PAer, I actually had a duel personality. One was on the PA fence rooting PA on, hoping against hope that what my heart was saying was not true, because I did not want to admit, I had been the victim of fraud, or my book doomed to failure because of my poor choice. The other side of me was over here lurking and cheering AW on because I knew that it was the right thing to do. Being a person that prides herself in doing the right thing I eventually, even though it hurt to admit I had been duped, decided to join the team over here.

I am, by nature, a strong and confident individual; but because of my experience with PA and the temporary “death” of my hard work, and the love of my craft kicked in the butt so to speak, I have days that are pure heck. Some days are spent in depression, and it seems that my muse has died. Other days I am my old confident and strong self, on the AW board, offering opinions and encouraging others. This is part of the “grieving” process of a dream that is near death, but reviving. I know it is just a matter of time and the whole ordeal will be at an end. But in the interim the going gets rough at times and I know without a doubt that many of those authors who are so vigorously cheering on the PA boards are going through the duel personality war.

I know it is hard for some of you to realize why and how we were duped so easily. I have no answer for that, except for all the answers that have been given already and I won’t bother repeating. Don’t forget for one moment that most of those caught in the fraud, are or have potential to be good authors; they are no less good writers than those published by traditional publishers. For some, the chance for the published dream has been stolen. The more you think of the whole thing, the more hurtful it becomes and the more evil.

[Uncarved]

As someone who is seriously considering Lulu for a niche project she is writing in between traditional book contracts (one book due October, next is January; I have a little time I can persue other things) I am glad that we are starting to distinguish between self pubbing for their own good and a vanity press like PA.



According to one of the posters on the PA board, "If you self-publish, you are just being robbed."

Uh, not necessarily.

I made a four-figure profit by self-pubbing my novel. However, I knew my market and I researched options. I had a lot of input with the printer I finally chose. Plus this novel had won a regional contest, and part of my self-pubbing cost was underwritten by the grant I received.

My novel was workshopped through my writers group, some of whom taught college English. Heck, I'm a college English teacher myself. I did have six errors in the first press run (1,000, which sold out) but I fixed the five I could find when I ran the second thousand). Even after doing a second press run, my profit is still in the four-figure range.

My self-pubbed book has not only made money, but has been studied by regional bookclubs, been shelved at several independent bookstores, received favorable reviews in regional (and one national) publication and sold well over a thousand copies. Oh yeah, two Barnes & Noble stores have contacted me to order copies.

I'd say my self-published book did a heckuva lot better than the average PA book. Better, even, than most of the above-average PA books!

Sheesh! When are some of the PAers going to stop bashing us self-published authors?

PVish

[MadScientistMatt]

A bookstore that carries books by just one publisher won't be effectively serving the customer. With all due respect, this store will be carrying "generic" brand books. Instead of Stephen King books, it'll carry horror novels that are trying so hard to be Stephen King, but aren't. No Harlequin romances, just generic equivalents. No Michael Crichton technothrillers, just books by authors who wish they could be Crichton, but aren't. These books will look similar, but they won't "taste" the same, nor will they have the same quality.

It's a concept doomed to failure.

underthecity

I'd say it is a little worse. A generic foods company - even if it isn't the same as the name brand company putting its food in a different box - has a few things I can expect of them. They have to guarantee that the food is edible. They have to include all the ingredients that you need to make the product. They need to inspect the food to be sure it meets a fairly good standard and remove anything rotten.

I can't say that PublishAnyone does the same for their products.

[Kate Nepveu]

astonwest, thanks, that was what I was thinking of.

[James D. Macdonald]

According to one of the posters on the PA board, "If you self-publish, you are just being robbed."

Uh, not necessarily. ...



Please note the Big Differences between self-pubbing and vanity-pubbing.


With vanity-pubbing money is flowing away from the author.

With self-pubbing money is flowing to the author. (True, it's flowing from another pocket in the same pair of pants, but it's still flowing the right direction. Self-pubbing is like normal commercial publishing except that the publisher and the author are the same guy.)

(One common pitfall in self-publication is forgetting to pay yourself as the author.)

[Ken Schneider]

Question for those who know.


If one is self published, how is the book price set?
Is the price still 19.95?
I understand if you buy the books you set the price, but setting the price depends on what you have invested?

[DaveKuzminski]

Another thing to be remembered is that there are valid uses for self-published and vanity books. We're not against those when used properly. We're only against those being sold as options to writers when those are incorrect for the writers' purposes.

Even PA can be of use, but it's not the right solution for many of its authors. Plus, its contract needs considerable modification so that it will be fair to writers as well as PA.

So, PA authors, keep it in mind that you can't see deception if you're using tunnel vision. Look around you and discover other facts.

[Ken Schneider]

Sorry to all, I forgot to post this.

As most know, last week I made an apology to Jenna on the P.A. board.

I also told my friends there that I still cared for them and no matter what.

I received some e-mails that are less than flattering. I thought they were my friends.
The e-mails have contained animated online jokes about burying the mule who keep climbing to the top of the hole, (P.A.) and the farmer who is trying to burying them getting kicked in a** by the mule(me). Some friends.
I've received it from several people, yes the same joke. I wish I could find one that had the mule kissing my a** to send back.

[astonwest]

I understand if you buy the books you set the price, but setting the price depends on what you have invested?

Besides printing costs (your investment), it also depends on the discount that the bookstores require, and whatever profit and/or royalty you're looking to make.

It would probably be a good idea to also figure on a certain percentage of returns and/or unsold books.

And of course, as anyone who has gone through PA's gauntlet can attest, you have to set the price at a level that is competitive...

[Sher2]

Sorry to all, I forgot to post this.

As most know, last week I made an apology to Jenna on the P.A. board.

I also told my friends there that I still cared for them and no matter what.

I received some e-mails that are less than flattering. I thought they were my friends.
The e-mails have contained animated online jokes about burying the mule who keep climbing to the top of the hole, (P.A.) and the farmer who is trying to burying them getting kicked in a** by the mule(me). Some friends.
I've received it from several people, yes the same joke. I wish I could find one that had the mule kissing my a** to send back.
Bottom line, they ain't your friends and they're acting like jackasses. If I come across an apt ***-kissing mule, I'll be sure and send it to you for the appropriate forwarding.:roll: Onward and upward.

[zizban]

I have self published two books, one with a friend with runs a POD shop in England. It is nifty seeing my name on a book I can hold. One of these days I'll see a book of mine on the Barnes and Noble bookshelf.

[James D. Macdonald]

If one is self published, how is the book price set?
Is the price still 19.95?


That's really off-topic for this discussion. We have two entire areas for self-publishing here at AW.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=46

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=47


Short answer: Depends on how much it costs you to print the book, what it'll cost to distribute it, and what it'll cost to advertise it. The more copies you print the lower the price per book. And don't forget to figure in the royalties on the cover price that you'll be paying yourself. You'll know what the cover price of the book will be after you work out all those details. Assume 50% returns. Remember to include shipping. Remember to figure on review copies.

Get quotes. Negotiate. You are the publisher.

[KellyS.]

And which board would they be speaking of in post #10?

[James D. Macdonald]

And which board would they be speaking of in post #10?

Same one as in post #1, I'd guess.

(If I were to guess, I'd think it was in Writersweekly.com (owned by Angela Hoy, who runs Booklocker.com), but they've shut down their Whispers and Warning boards, so there aren't any new PA discussions there. If anyone does know....)

[Sassenach]

Earlier today I was thinking how the PA'ers need a 'Library' like the one in Richard Brautigan's 'The Library'. [Some of the baby boomers here might remember that book.]

[PVish]

Changling asked, "If one is self published, how is the book price set?"

Short answer: Cheaper than the average PA price.

As Uncle Jim pointed out, the more books you order, the cheaper the book. Don't consider hiring a printer for under a thousand books. For a smaller run, the price per copy will be prohibitive. (My second thousand, by the way, cost a third of the first press run's cost.) In general, the rule of thumb is twice the printer's price per copy plus 20%. However, you can drop the price a bit. After all, you're the publisher. You can also give discounts for volume purchases. (I have different discounts for big bookstores, small bookstores, out-right purchases, and consignments. However, I make money with each one I sell.)

Unlike PA authors, a self-pubbed author has a lot of input. Visit several printers and get quotes. Look at the printer's work. Good ones will have dozens of samples for you to examine. Decide before you get your quotes how you want your book to look, what size font, what type font, what weight paper, if you want a two-color cover or full cover, etc.

Some generalizations:
If you expect to sell at least a thousand books, go with self-publishing.
If you expect to sell a couple of hundred--but less than a thousand books, go with a reputable POD.
If you just want to hold two copies and proclaim, "Look! I'm a published author!" then you know where you can go.

PVish

[Sassenach]

If you just want to hold two copies and proclaim, "Look! I'm a published author!" then you know where you can go.

Kinko's?

[MadScientistMatt]

Sorry to all, I forgot to post this.

As most know, last week I made an apology to Jenna on the P.A. board.

I also told my friends there that I still cared for them and no matter what.

I received some e-mails that are less than flattering. I thought they were my friends.
The e-mails have contained animated online jokes about burying the mule who keep climbing to the top of the hole, (P.A.) and the farmer who is trying to burying them getting kicked in a** by the mule(me). Some friends.
I've received it from several people, yes the same joke. I wish I could find one that had the mule kissing my a** to send back.

I misread that at first, but you might like the way I misread it a bit better. I thought that you meant that PA was the hole, that "me" refered to the mule, and presumably the farmer was part of the same plan as the hole. That seems like a much more apt way of viewing your situation. PublishAnyone is definitely a trap that some authors have fallen into and need to climb out of.

The reverse (which I presume was the way they meant the joke to go) doesn't really make much sense. PublishAmerica isn't going to climb to the top of anything compared to any major publisher, or even most small presses.

[Gratian Gasparri]

HI Changling,

Don't feel too bad. Many of those folks will likely find themselves coming over here in time. PA is kinda like that story in Plato's Republic of the people locked inside a cave who spend all day watching shadows of animals projected onto the wall. They begin to believe those shadows are the real thing.

When the folks are finally torn out of the cave and into the open daylight, their eyes cannot take the intensity of the sunlight and the real world at first. But slowly they adjust and come to see nature for what it really is, and not just projected shadows.

Now they want to share this information with their friends who are stuck back in the cave. Of course, their friends will initially resist the truth because it is hard on the eyes. Their friends will blame the individual for trying to hurt them.

This is why the PA boosters are at their most vicious just before they cross over to our side. It is hard to come to see the truth, namely, that they are not traditionally published authors and that they deserve better from their publisher.


Sorry to all, I forgot to post this.

As most know, last week I made an apology to Jenna on the P.A. board.

I also told my friends there that I still cared for them and no matter what.

I received some e-mails that are less than flattering. I thought they were my friends.
The e-mails have contained animated online jokes about burying the mule who keep climbing to the top of the hole, (P.A.) and the farmer who is trying to burying them getting kicked in a** by the mule(me). Some friends.
I've received it from several people, yes the same joke. I wish I could find one that had the mule kissing my a** to send back.

[Literary Lola]

I received some e-mails that are less than flattering. I thought they were my friends.
Yup, it's the typical mentality over there. Many actually are capable of independent thought, and those are the bane of The Logo's existence. The rest of the cattle check to see which way the wind is blowing and act accordingly.

How many of us had friends over there only to have our butts chewed by those same "friends." It's sick and pathetic. Only in times of hardship do you know who your real friends are. So sorry you got caught in their crosshairs.

[Ed Williams]

...and look on the PA boards, there's not much enthusiasm, not many postings of consequence, bottom line, it's somewhat like a party after all the food and liquor has run out. If what I'm reading there represents the thoughts and aspirations of 11,000 "happy PA authors," then PA is redefining what true happiness is. I think the small number of posters vs. the vast overall number of authors is very telling in and of itself.

Hmmm, no updates to the "New Releases" section in awhile....

Here's a sad thread, yet more PA authors discovering, a bit too late, the sad reality of what it means to be published by PA:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11900.htm

Now, now, I must chide everyone who's discussing "bashing' - folks, we are not "bashing," we're "pickling." Sounds sort of naughty doesn't it? I thought so, that's why I like it. So please, in the future, use the correct terminology - the New Three Stooges and the POD Squad will be grateful.

Now team, let's get out there and PICKLE PA!

P.S. Here's all the inducement you should ever need to change from "bashing" to "pickling" - remember who coined the term "bashing"...

[Sheryl Nantus]

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8666.htm

*sigh*

:cry:

[MadScientistMatt]

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8666.htm

*sigh*

:cry:

Interesting. A vanity bookstore to go along with vanity publishing.

[DaveKuzminski]

The way some authors run into the minefield, it's enough to make you wonder if it would be better to put signs pointing that they should enter instead of beware. Then maybe they'd run away from the dangers.

[Patricia]

..

P.S. Here's all the inducement you should ever need to change from "bashing" to "pickling" - remember who coined the term "bashing"...

Yes, remember, he "who no longer lives" has no right to be named. What a terrible epitaph.

[James D. Macdonald]

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8666.htm

*sigh*



For our friends at PA who are just now finding out about this idea -- it was discussed here last month. Read all about it.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524&page=496&pp=25
(http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=130546&highlight=idea+bookstore#post130546)

[JennaGlatzer]

Chang, I'm so sorry you're going through that. :( I have nothing smart to say, but I just feel lousy that apologizing to me would make people want to be nasty to you. That's sad.

[Gravity]

Hi, just a message for those who have signed up to be part of Phase Two of THE PROJECT. (And it's not too late! Vic, could you please post my original message again?)

I'm currently waiting on some vital info from Writer Beware's Attorney. As soon as I receive it, I'll be forging ahead, and you'll all hear from me.

Best,

-Ann C. Crispin
Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com (http://www.writerbeware.com/)
Author: STORMS OF DESTINY/HarperEos
www.accrispin.com (http://www.accrispin.com)

Sounds good, Ann. I've been in on this with you from the start. It's like giving blood at the Red Cross during a particularly nasty war. Anything for the cause!

John

[lindylou45]

Check out this thread one more time (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11898.htm), and read post #5. That's us!

Once again, another poster sees nothing past the "bashing." Nothing. Eyes closed, ears covered. Doesn't want to know about it.

Sigh.

Then there's post #6.

utc

Is that the same Carl from Publishers Weekly message board?

[James D. Macdonald]

Is that the same Carl from Publishers Weekly message board?

Nah, that was "Carl Ross." (Just based on style, same person was calling himself "Maxwell" over at Mindsight.)

[lindylou45]

I don't want to see some poor writer geting excited over what I feel is a bad business prospect only to lose their books and their money. They're already involved in one bad business decision, why compound an error in judgement with another one.

-Sparhawk

Do you have any idea how many PA authors have lost their books and their money thinking if they paid a PR firm thousands of dollars it would help them sell their books?

[Ken Schneider]

Jenna, I did what was right, and sometimes being right, and being popular, don't go hand in hand.

If they want to be like that, then they were never really friends anyway.

It doesn't bother me, it's sad that they feel the need to champion their publisher's fight.

The recent scathing news articles are great examples.

What should have been P.A.'s fight was slipped into the authors laps to save face for Molarrya, and group. Any rebuttal or castigation would reflect on the authors not the publisher. You saw what happened to P.A.'s champion, the one who carried their banner against criticism, their biggest supporter. They aren't backing him now, now that the masses are rabid for a lynching of the one with no name.
Why? Cause their money machine would rebel. Money talks, loyalty walks.

Ken

[James D. Macdonald]

There are people who make getting scammed their lifestyle.

You see 'em with a history that goes AuthorHouse, iUniverse, Dorrance, and PublishAmerica ... with a sidetrip through ST Literary Agency and Janet Kay.

[Ed Williams]

Do you have any idea how many PA authors have lost their books and their money thinking if they paid a PR firm thousands of dollars it would help them sell their books?...is that creating a demand for a product that is not readily available through normal distribution/sales channels is pointless - it's like giving a glass full of sand to someone who's been in the desert for a couple of days.

I am feeling such inspiration tonight, I have my new framed, "autographed to Ed" Jerry Lee Lewis photo sitting here on my desk. If I just had an ICEE and a Nu-Way hot dog my life, as I know it, would be complete.....

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/lu.gif
Now there's a smooch!

[Jeff]

I received some e-mails that are less than flattering. I thought they were my friends. The e-mails have contained animated online jokes about burying the mule who keep climbing to the top of the hole, (P.A.) and the farmer who is trying to burying them getting kicked in a** by the mule(me). Some friends.

In gang terms, it's called "busting out". The only way to leave certain street gangs free and clear is to literally fight your way out -- by running a gauntlet of current gang members who do their best to puch, kick and assault you into unconsciousness.

While PA is by no means akin to a street gang, I am becoming more and more convinced as I read their boards that they are very much like a cult.

Look at it this way, chang. You're out. You're free as a writer. You get your novel back in 7 years (sooner, if you work at it and get lucky) and you have time to write the next one and improve your craft. You also now have the benefit of hindsight, when it comes time to send it out to be reviewed for publication.

Best wishes and good luck.

Hoover: "I, state your name..."
Pledge class" "I, state your name..."
Hoover: "Do hereby pledge alligience to the frat..."
Pledge class: "Do hereby... mumble, mumble..."
Hoover: "With liberty and fraternity for all."
Pledge class: "mumble, mumble, mumble."

[Sparhawk]

Do you have any idea how many PA authors have lost their books and their money thinking if they paid a PR firm thousands of dollars it would help them sell their books?

No, I honestly do not have that information. I was only saying that I didn't want to see a writer get hoodwinked by what I sincerely beleive, based on my experience, is a bad decision. I am truly saddened if a large number of people at PA have invested money with a PR firm and have recieved no success from their outlay of capital. Their publisher should be marketing and promoting their writers, not a PR firm hired by said writer. I can only hope that the number is small.

[lindylou45]

Ed Williams]...is that creating a demand for a product that is not readily available through normal distribution/sales channels is pointless.

In my view, any PR firm that would accept a PA author as a client is just as culpable as PA. Chances are they've had more than one of these authors as a client and yet they continue to give them false hope. When I talked to one PR firm their starting cost was $2,500.00 and they went as high as $25,000.00. What PA author would be able to afford that w/o putting their house up for a second mortage -- and by the way -- I know two PA authors who did just that.

I am feeling such inspiration tonight, I have my new framed, "autographed to Ed" Jerry Lee Lewis photo sitting here on my desk. If I just had an ICEE and a Nu-Way hot dog my life, as I know it, would be complete

Wish I could help you out there, Ed. (BTW, we call them slushies here in Kansas). I just might share a piece of Mem's Rum cake -- of which I have discovered has no rum in it b/c Mem drank it all!


:kiss: Right back atcha'

[MartyKay]

Or:

Putzes Abound
Particularly Abusive
Putrid A*******

Pretend Aneurysm??

[Canada James]

In my view, any PR firm that would accept a PA author as a client is just as culpable as PA. Chances are they've had more than one of these authors as a client and yet they continue to give them false hope.

I have to disagree. Having worked for a PR firm, it's not up to them to decide if your product is saleable or being produced by a reputable firm. It's their job to get the word out, and to fulfil whatever contract is agreed upon between them and their client.

Canada James

[Gratian Gasparri]

Chang,

Jenna, I did what was right, and sometimes being right, and being popular, don't go hand in hand. If they want to be like that, then they were never really friends anyway.

Trust me, don't burn any bridges. And let them know that while they may wish to burn the bridge at their end, you're always open for discussion. You will be surprised how many will come to you in about six months to a year and say, "Chang, sorry for the way I treated you. I now realize you are right, but don't know what to do."

Sometimes, a burning a little short term popularity earns you a lot of long-term respect. This in turn positions you to help PA authors when they are willing to be helped.

[lindylou45]

I have to disagree. Having worked for a PR firm, it's not up to them to decide if your product is saleable or being produced by a reputable firm. It's their job to get the word out, and to fulfil whatever contract is agreed upon between them and their client.

Canada James

I suppose you're right, Canada James. It seems wrong to me, though. If a PR firm took on a client knowing full well there was not a thing they could do to enhance the sale of their product, I would hope they would at least explain the difficulty involved and allow the client to make that decision from there. But maybe I'm being naïve again. That is what got me in trouble the first time! :Smack:

Of course, there is the possibility that the PR firm did explain the difficulty the author would have, but being a PA author, he/she believed they would sell like hotcakes. Who knows, I wasn't there at the time. :Shrug:

[KellyS.]

http://www.imghst.com/uploads/kelblend/stooges.gif

:0)

[JennaGlatzer]

Lindy, right on. I know some PR firms won't take self/vanity-pubbed authors at all unless they have distribution in place; I respect that in the same way I respect a plastic surgeon who won't operate on someone with body dysmorphic disorder. In other words, they won't take the money if they know they really can't help.

[lindylou45]

http://www.imghst.com/uploads/kelblend/stooges.gif

:0)

Woo Hoo! Good job!! :Hail:

[lindylou45]

Lindy, right on. I know some PR firms won't take self/vanity-pubbed authors at all unless they have distribution in place; I respect that in the same way I respect a plastic surgeon who won't operate on someone with body dysmorphic disorder. In other words, they won't take the money if they know they really can't help.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way.

[lindylou45]

...
Now team, let's get out there and PICKLE PA!


Ed Williams -- a.k.a. The POD Pickler :guns: :whip: :faint:

It's 3:40 a.m., I've done my BIC and worked on my website dedicated to The New Three Stooges and The POD Squad and now I'm going to bed! :gone:

[DaveKuzminski]

Just a suggestion, but if we want the Condensed Reasons that PA is a Bad Choice to resonate with anyone actually considering submitting to PA, we need to keep it from repeating information. When someone mentions X, then others shouldn't post X unless PA has changed how they react to X.

In fact, we might want to have that thread closed so that it can't be added to, especially by those who might want to sabotage it. Additions would be permitted only when approved by a monitor after vetting for accuracy.

[Sher2]

Just a suggestion, but if we want the Condensed Reasons that PA is a Bad Choice to resonate with anyone actually considering submitting to PA, we need to keep it from repeating information. When someone mentions X, then others shouldn't post X unless PA has changed how they react to X.

In fact, we might want to have that thread closed so that it can't be added to, especially by those who might want to sabotage it. Additions would be permitted only when approved by a monitor after vetting for accuracy.
Good idea, and if each person who has been adversely affected posts only one point, it will be very educational indeed. Dealing with PA, purveyor of PhantomAmendments, is one of those situations in which a little learning is a dangerous thing.

[Sher2]

http://www.imghst.com/uploads/kelblend/stooges.gif

:0)
Kelly, I love it when you stay up late and get bored enough to scope out all this neat stuff. Go, Stooges! :partyguy:

[Ed Williams]

...Land of Poz begins. In the category of convoluted logic, we find:

I would add that I find it strange that some
(only a few!) PA authors, who sent in a
proposal for their book to PA electronically,
sent their manuscript electronically, received
their proofs electronically and returned the
same with corrections electronically and all
their communications with PA are by email
(electronically) now are disappointed that
there books are being sold electronically and
want their books to be sold mainly through
bookstores!!!I can't imagine why your fellow authors would think that a book publishing company would want to sell books through bookstores, especially as truthful as PA has been in the advertising of their "services."

Let's not stop with just this one example - here's a little more convoluted logic straight from those in high places over in the Merry Olde Land of Poz:

Local bookstores like to be able to demonstrate that there is demand for a book. If they can show demand, their superiors (those "buyers") may permit them to stock.Ummm, and just how can they demonstrate demand for their books without getting them into bookstores? Cancelled checks from family members and friends?

And thus we go into another day in this great and mighty land, where the lies do flow, and the owners ho ho ho.....

[Crystal Rivers]

Jenna, I did what was right, and sometimes being right, and being popular, don't go hand in hand.

If they want to be like that, then they were never really friends anyway.

It doesn't bother me, it's sad that they feel the need to champion their publisher's fight.

Chang, I read your apology on the PA board and really was impressed by your courage in publicly righting a wrong. You're a man to be admired. As far as the backstabbers, we can only hope that one day they will see the light and recognize PA for what it is--a Publisher(to)Avoid. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonsscared.gif

[James D. Macdonald]

Lindy, right on. I know some PR firms won't take self/vanity-pubbed authors at all unless they have distribution in place...

Some PR firms may not have known about PA's business model. The information wasn't always out there like it is now (and increasingly will be in the future). The author who hired them will have talked about "traditional publisher," and "advance and royalty paying," and "in bookstores from sea to shining sea."

We've heard of PR firms who were astounded when PA wouldn't return their phone calls or who tried to get advance promotional copies with no success. Those PR firms acted as if PA were a publisher only to discover otherwise.

I expect the word is getting out among the legitimate PR firms, just like it's getting out among new writers.

[Sher2]

And thus we go into another day in this great and mighty land,
where the lies do flow,
and the owners ho ho ho.....
Down the Yellow Brick Road, hand in hand
Butt in a sling, straight over the rainbow.

[DaveKuzminski]

Chang, I read your apology on the PA board and really was impressed by your courage in publicly righting a wrong.

What really astonishes me is that one individual on the PA forum, whom I'll only identify as impressing me with the massive intellect of a water-skiing jock, repeated the inaccuracies despite the recent posting by Changling correcting his earlier post.

[Kate Nepveu]

Just a suggestion, but if we want the Condensed Reasons that PA is a Bad Choice to resonate with anyone actually considering submitting to PA, we need to keep it from repeating information. When someone mentions X, then others shouldn't post X unless PA has changed how they react to X.
Dave, to the extent my contribution repeats others, I apologize, but it had been in the works for a while, and I was asleep when Jenna put up the Condensed Thread (which I think is a great idea).

The rest is modly stuff and I will leave it to the mods, and to those who made contributions to the thread, to sort out.

[AnneMarble]

I can't imagine why your fellow authors would think that a book publishing company would want to sell books through bookstores, especially as truthful as PA has been in the advertising of their "services."

Perish the thought! ;)

Also, going back to that quote you quoted... I use eBay quite often -- often out of print classical music records, books, etc. I browse for the stuff I want electronically, and I almost always pay for them electronically. But you can bet that if I ordered a book, and the sender sent me a scan of the book I had ordered, I would be really really upset. Not just because the download would be huge, but because that's not what I ordered. Just because I do some of the business electronically, that doesn't mean I want everything to "be electronic" at all steps.

Hmmm, I'm not sure if that works. Please take my analogy outside and shoot it. Not that the original analogy worked as when they do get royalties, PA authors are paid on paper checks...
:guns:

Maybe another analogy... There is a small yet growing number of print publications that accept e-mail submissions -- including at least one book publisher (Baen). I can imagine an aspiring writer finding one of these publishers in an electronic market list (maybe ralan.com) and then submitting an e-mail containing their story to them... And then, when they are accepted, the check is printed on paper. And so is the story.

[cwgranny]

I would add that I find it strange that some
(only a few!) PA authors, who sent in a
proposal for their book to PA electronically,
sent their manuscript electronically, received
their proofs electronically and returned the
same with corrections electronically and all
their communications with PA are by email
(electronically) now are disappointed that
there books are being sold electronically and
want their books to be sold mainly through
bookstores!!!



Well, maybe if he worded it with more of this tone: Considering NOTHING you've experienced so far has been like a real publisher -- not submission, not communication, not editing -- why would you expect sales to be like a real publisher?

Then it would resonate.

gran:Coffee:

[Gratian Gasparri]

Hi folks, as I was out of action on the board last week (new book contract, exams, Terri Schiavo, death of Pope, etc.) it appears that I missed something big vis-a-vis He-who-must-not-be-named. I've tried to patch things together from several posts, but as Mystery is not exactly my favorite genre, I am still a little cloudy.

1) Am I correct to believe that he-who-must-not-be-named is HB?

2) Am I correct to believe he either died or faked his death?

3) If the latter, am I correct to believe he is no longer permitted to post or has no longer posted to PA's public board since this incident?

4) Am I missing some other fine details that would put into perspective what appears to be a quick fall from grace?

Thanks in advance for any insight anyone can share on this.

[DaveKuzminski]

Thanks in advance for any insight anyone can share on this.

1. Yes.
2. Faked for the second time.
3. You appear to be correct, though that could change.
4. Probably not.

[underthecity]

Hi folks, as I was out of action on the board last week (new book contract, exams, Terri Schiavo, death of Pope, etc.) it appears that I missed something big vis-a-vis He-who-must-not-be-named. I've tried to patch things together from several posts, but as Mystery is not exactly my favorite genre, I am still a little cloudy.

1) Am I correct to believe that he-who-must-not-be-named is HB?
ETC.


Gratian, miss a weekend and miss a lifetime. All your questions are answered in this closed thread (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9607).

Get a cup of coffee and make yourself comfortable, you're in for a long and entertaining ride. :Coffee:

utc

[MMo]

Gratian, miss a weekend and miss a lifetime. All your questions are answered in this closed thread (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9607).

Get a cup of coffee and make yourself comfortable, you're in for a long and entertaining ride. :Coffee:

utc

To avoid needless frustration, though, don't bother to try to follow the links to the other board. Those posts have been deleted in true other-board style.

Welcome back.

Mo

[Gratian Gasparri]

Okay, thanks to everyone who pointed those other threads out to me. Wow.... he really blew it!

I was also impressed, but not surprised, by the grace with which Jenna handled the situation. The gang-up on her was vicious, but not unlike what I have seen with other folks who try and help friends and family members out of a cult.

[realitychuck]

I would add that I find it strange that some
(only a few!) PA authors, who sent in a
proposal for their book to PA electronically,
sent their manuscript electronically, received
their proofs electronically and returned the
same with corrections electronically and all
their communications with PA are by email
(electronically) now are disappointed that
there books are being sold electronically and
want their books to be sold mainly through
bookstores!!!

Why is it strange? That's how Baen Books works -- and their books are mainly in bookstores.

And why is there any connection between the way you contact the publisher and how their books are distributed? If you mailed your book to them, would this mean all their books are distributed by mail order?

Hmmn. I guess that means bookstores can't exist! All publishers are using mail order and the net! Any bookstore is just a figment of your imagination!

:crazy:

[T42]

I just had to stop by and say that the condensed version of why we don't want to publish our book with Pa was a wonderful idea and well put together. Bravo!:Clap:
Mem

[victoriastrauss]

There are people who make getting scammed their lifestyle.

You see 'em with a history that goes AuthorHouse, iUniverse, Dorrance, and PublishAmerica ... with a sidetrip through ST Literary Agency and Janet Kay.Oh yeah. I hear from folks like that often. For instance, those who got ripped by Janet Kay and are now considering signing with Desert Rose, which is run by a former Kay employee. It's hard to know what to say, so I just quote Uncle Jim's Maxim, give 'em some basic advice, and hope for the best.

- Victoria

[victoriastrauss]

Lindy, right on. I know some PR firms won't take self/vanity-pubbed authors at all unless they have distribution in place; I respect that in the same way I respect a plastic surgeon who won't operate on someone with body dysmorphic disorder. In other words, they won't take the money if they know they really can't help.There's also a growing number of PR services that specialize in self/vanity-pubbed authors. Some of these are well-intentioned (for instance, they themselves are set up as a distributor, so they can--theoretically at least--place clients' books in stores), even if they don't have the expertise of established PR firms and may not always follow through. Others are just ways to make a buck off of people who don't know better. Just on principle, it's wise to be wary of any PR firm that has a substantial vanity or self-pub clientele.

- Victoria

[Sassenach]

Here's a PA author who's a target for the PR types. She's puzzled as to why the PA 'press releases' aren't doing the job. Poor naive PA'er:

When I received this e-mail, I thought, "Cool! I'll bet I hear back from the newspapers around here!" (I live in the Middle Tennessee area, by the way; there are two newspapers I listed in the media contacts, the Tennessean in Nashville and my local community newspaper.)

So I waited a couple of weeks and didn't hear anything.

Then I found the pertinent newspaper editors' e-mail addresses and e-mailed them notification that I had signed a contract with PA, and that they had probably received a press release on this from PA, and if they had any questions about this, they could contact me.

I still haven't heard anything. I didn't even get any responses from the e-mails.

[MMo]

[QUOTE=T42]I just had to stop by and say that the condensed version of why we don't want to publish our book with Pa was a wonderful idea and well put together. Bravo!:Clap:
Mem[/QUOTE

Mem -- PM me please.

Mo

[Ed Williams]

Okay, thanks to everyone who pointed those other threads out to me. Wow.... he really blew it!What's astonishing is that an adult with reasonable intelligence and normal sensitivities would even attempt such a thing. Hmmm, maybe I just figured it all out...

Taking another quick look-see over into the Great and Mighty Land of Poz, we find that the "New Releases" section has not been changed in close to two weeks, and that the worlds' oldest internet fossil (the Jamie Farr promo deal) is still alive and well. And here's the latest on the promotional plan for the "Book of 200" -

My scheme involves free retail space in such shops as hairdressers,framers,opticians that would only require a decent display. The books would all be sold as collectable signed copies making PA books premium itemsPremium books in a hairdresser's shop? If one of them mentions Jiffy Lube in that thread, I'm gonna be hacked off about my idea being stolen!

Elwood: It's 106 miles to Chicago, we've got a full tank of gas, a half a pack of cigarattes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses.
Jake: Hit it.

[WhisperingBard]

Poor sap:

Sass, your empathy just resonates.