The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America) [Archive] - Page 39

Ed Williams

03-03-2005, 06:23 AM

....of their books themselves, you get stories like the below, this is sad:

Some of the book stores that I have tried to get to set up a signing and order my book have told me that there is only one copy "for the whole world" available through Ingrams. I do not know what this means to book stores that look up one of our books to order, but they were pretty negative when they look it up and see that. I wish I had more information. I am really ignorant in the promoting a book line. I think a lot of us are. I have gotten the suggested book for promotion from PA, but it does not tell how to deal with the snobbish book store giants when they say something like that. I just wish there was more instruction on marketing. I would do it, I try to do everything that book says to do, but I am not a born marketer. I have learned a little, but I am still in the dark as to whom these big book stores buy from. Some of them suggest I go straight to Ingrams and other places. I wish there was a book on just exactly whom to contact and where. It is like going on a big voyage without a map and no stars to guide. Perhaps I am the only ignorant one. So, if any of you have a way to point me in the right direction, please do so. I will do most things, short of standing with one foot up on a light post. I am too old for that.No wonder some of the PA authors walk away from writing altogether after enduring situations like this. Know what? I hope as fervently as anyone does that Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem will visit some government enforced housing for an extended period of time soon, but I also think they all deserve good old country a**whuppins' as well for putting people through misery like this...

Sher2

03-03-2005, 06:39 AM

....of their books themselves, you get stories like the below, this is sad:

No wonder some of the PA authors walk away from writing altogether after enduring situations like this. Know what? I hope as fervently as anyone does that Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem will visit some government enforced housing for an extended period of time soon, but I also think they all deserve good old country a**whuppins' as well for putting people through misery like this...
There's something drastically wrong when they send poor ol' Martha Stewart up the river but leave these three to run amok in Frederick to do as they darn well please. They need *** whuppins' AND a good long stint in Club Fed. :Headbang:

Ed Williams

03-03-2005, 06:44 AM

....and it appears that these PA authors are not happy in the least. I have a feeling that this thread:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8032.htm

...will not last very long, given its general "flavor"...

DaveKuzminski

03-03-2005, 07:03 AM

Well, that's because Martha lied and PA, uh.... Um, nevermind.

Of course, when Miranda returned to Maryland after her schooling and other education, she looked for a job. She would have worked in a pharmacy, but she couldn't figure out how to get those bottles in the typewriter.

Of course, I've heard that Larry would moonwalk around the PA offices by dropping his pants and sliding across the linoleum on his butt. Left a terrible slime trail, too.

Still, we should have some sympathy for good ole Willem. After all, he went to a library and checked out How to Hug so he could make PA more acceptable to others. He got back all the way to the PA office before he found an editor to tell him that he had Volume Seven of an encyclopedia.

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 07:08 AM

Not with posters like Henry, who blames it all on bad marketing. That's the standard PA line.

I worked to market my novel when it came out. Interviews, calling local bookstores (who were all happy to stock it, since it came from a real publisher, had regular discounts, and was fully returnable), doing radio interviews, appearing as SF conventions, doing a signing. I probably sold an extra 100 copies because of it.

It was the publisher's marketing (and good reviews) sold the other 99% of the copies. Plus the fact that I wasn't being sabotaged by the lack or returns.

An author can only do so much to push his book. To succeed, you need someone to push the book in the 7900 bookstores that you can't visit personally. That's why you have a publisher.

Canada James

03-03-2005, 07:24 AM

Royalty Amount - $1.24

I can't stress this enough. CASH THAT CHEQUE! 1.24 (royalty)*11,000 (authors)= $13, 640.

Do you want to take part in giving them over thirteen thousand bucks?

Canada James

Patricia

03-03-2005, 07:28 AM

...if in fact he told this person as quoted here.

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8035.htm

mdin

03-03-2005, 07:28 AM

Are Amazon ranks still based on a sample of new orders?

That is, on day x if XX copies were ordered, and the sample day was day x, the ranking will go up, but if the sample day is day Y, then the ranking will either not change or go down?

Amazon just changed their ranking system late last year. It is based on immediate sales, not sales of a certain period of time. Books in the 200,000 range will jump to the 50,000 range if a single book is ordered, but will eventually sink back down over the next 24 hours.

Kate Nepveu

03-03-2005, 07:36 AM

Doing a companion one-sheet why PA should be avoided would also be great.Okay, because I _am_ the Vacuumer of Cats, I am working on a draft.

I need a link that demonstrates PA's lousy reseller discounts. I also need a link that demonstrates standard industry discounts.

Can anyone help?

In addition, the current Ingrams situation means that PA books can't be special ordered at all through them, right?

Patricia

03-03-2005, 07:49 AM

In addition, the current Ingrams situation means that PA books can't be special ordered at all through them, right?

Bonnie Gibson would probably know the answer to that since she has a bookstore.

aka eraser

03-03-2005, 07:59 AM

Ed, that was a heart-wrenching quote you posted. Reading it, I felt the same helpless fury I felt when my kind-hearted son was confronted with the harsh reality of bullying.

When this thread started, when PA's veneer was peeled to reveal the rotten skulduggery beneath, I was content to see it change its business practices - to better represent the "traditional" label in which it falsely wrapped itself.

As time went by I wanted to see it broken, and Meiners, Clopper and Miranda facing litigation til they were penniless.

Now I want them broke and doing time, preferably with Bubba (or Bubette) The Remorseless as a roomie.

Galoot

03-03-2005, 08:55 AM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8035.htmDid you notice that, for his good advice, the lawyer received a "singed copy" of this person's first book?

That's what I would have given him.

Patricia

03-03-2005, 09:48 AM

I noticed; however, I should talk -- he saw an attorney, and that is more than I can say for myself. I made sure I understood the media rights and a few other things and signed away. That mistake is my most embarrassing admission. I usually consult for important things. I think it was the "simple" language that fooled me.

Alphabeter

03-03-2005, 09:51 AM

The Sociopath Next Door tells you how to recognize the
diagnosable sociopath, defined as:
"...someone who displays at least three of seven distinguishing
characteristics, such as deceitfulness, impulsivity and a lack
of remorse. Such people often have a superficial charm, which
they exercise ruthlessly in order to get what they want."
Want to hear something weird? I was in a B&N just the other day, spotted that same book, and thought of exactly the same people. Spooky!
While I would be flattered to be in Jim's head, I think he would be afraid in mine. It should say something that people think this a "perfect" book to give me. :o

(Oh -- want something spooky? If you Google on new + books + published + year your number one hit is ... PublishAmerica!)

That is spooky. Perhaps its time to drop some more artillery. Would those AW'ers who have boards or blogs might adding another PA boomer?

Oh man, just stop it! You're killing me here. Darth meiner has to be the best though. lol What's next? Infohelmet? Who will ride in on blazing saddles to save the day?

InfoHelmet? :ROFL:Oh jeez, thats gotta be the best version. May the Schwartz be with us. But Moeranda doesn't look Druish!

And now that I'm all caught up again, I have a few more opinions.
First, I would like to favor against a separate PA Humor thread. Yes, some things get lost when the funny is running, but when Ted? reposted, answers were posted in droves.
Second, I think Kevin should put the SW/PA posts into a book. I have a policeman buddy who would just love to own it.
Third, Dave PLEASE keep up the jokes!

:Sun:

Chacounne

03-03-2005, 09:59 AM

Hey Jaws,

Do you think he has enough for a suit against his lawyer? Sigh!

Chacounne

James D. Macdonald

03-03-2005, 10:25 AM

I think it was the "simple" language that fooled me.

Ann, that contract is deliberately designed to be deceptive. Check upstream (waaaaay upstream) here for some pretty good dissections of it.

(The Indexing the Big PA Thread topic might help you there.)

Diana Hignutt

03-03-2005, 02:09 PM

I just got a copy of the sci-fi/fantasy magazine Locus in the mail. On page 10 there is an article on PublishAmerica and Atlanta Nights. (If someone else pointed this out already--sorry).

"PublishAmerica, the self-proclaimed "traditional" publisher that is widely condemned as an author mill, has suffered lately from more than the usual bad publicity."

The article goes on to mention SFWA's long going opposition to PA, PA's acceptance of Atlanta Nights (mentioning many of Travis' components by name), a reference to Kevin's Purple masterpiece, the Washington Post article, the fact that SFWA, the Authors Guild, and the MWA have all spoken out against PA, and that with more than 11,000 writers under contract-more than 1,000 PA titles have failed to sell a single copy.

PA, not surprisingly, is quoted as placing blame for the widespread complaints on an "extremely small minority of extremists."

A good article. The timing with the media blitz and Atlanta Nights was truly synergistic. One day soon everyone on the planet will know about PA. The words PublishAmerica will be synonymous with scam. Once again, I say a hearty, "Bravo" to all involved.

diana

DaveKuzminski

03-03-2005, 04:47 PM

PA, not surprisingly, is quoted as placing blame for the widespread complaints on an "extremely small minority of extremists."

Yes and that magic number is exactly three. Anyone want their names, too? ;)

Sher2

03-03-2005, 05:02 PM

Ann, that contract is deliberately designed to be deceptive.
Exactly. At first blush, it looks okay. It takes an attorney well versed in publishing law to spot the problem areas. I should know; my attorney witnessed mine. :Smack:

Gratian Gasparri

03-03-2005, 05:02 PM

Not with posters like Henry, who blames it all on bad marketing. That's the standard PA line.

Agreed. But for the sake of the argument, let us concede that it is up to the author to market and promote the book. In reality, this is what often happens with small publishing houses, particularly if they cater to a niche market. In these cases, does the publisher not bear responsibility for backing up the author's efforts?

[Our more experienced pros can tune out here.]

For example, if I'm speaking at a fairly large venue and need books to sell afterward, my publisher will drop ship them the afternoon I call in the order. Along with copies of the book, the publisher will also send other promotional material like bookmarks, a poster of the cover, posters of me next to the cover, etc. But getting back to copies of the book, they arrive at the venue where I set them up, sign them, and sell them. I then have ninety days after the event to sort out the money and extra copies with publisher. I can either purchase those books that weren't sold at 50 to 60 percent discount, or I can return them.

The process is similar with review copies. If I'm speaking to an editor or to a seminary professor who wants a review copy, I can just call the publisher. They will send out a review copy within the week. Not a sales pitch, but a free copy of the book.

And if I have to travel long distance to a venue to promote the book, and it is large enough or important enough that the publisher wants me there, guess who picks up the cost of airfare and other travel expenses? The publisher will even make the travel arrangements. Generally I book my own flights and arrange my own way to the airport, but let the publisher figure out my lodging and subsequent travel. Whatever authorized expenditures the publisher hasn't paid upfront, I submit as a bill for reimbursement.

Friends, this is how traditional publishers behave when their authors get involved with the publicity and marketting aspects of the book.

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 05:05 PM

...if in fact he told this person as quoted here.

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8035.htm Not too surprising. If a lawyer is unfamiliar with publishing practices, he's not going to notice all the potential pitfalls. You need someone who knows publishing contracts, not a lawyer who's never seen one.

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 05:13 PM

Agreed. But for the sake of the argument, let us concede that it is up to the author to market and promote the book. Does the publisher not bear some responsibility to back up the author's efforts?.Absolutely. The publisher does nearly all the promoting, primarily through its sales force and by sending out a copious amount of review copies. The author's promotion efforts are just the cherry on the icing on the cake.

Even for a small press book, the publisher does a good deal of the promotion.

The only books where the author handles the majority of the promotion are self-published and vanity press books.

Once more item in the long list of reasons why PA is a vanity press.

T42

03-03-2005, 05:17 PM

Good Morning All,

I noticed that the authors who have gotten the royalty checks are now starting to justify why it was so small and work on a “new strategy” and John with the 200 book is more then willing to help. Why can’t these people just get it? Talk about denial. I sent another letter to B&N to ask them to help with this war against PA since they too will be hurt in the long run by PA’s bad reputation. After all, PA makes it sound like they are bed partners. I sent a letter to FOX ‘s Bill Oreilly and I plan to send out many more letters in the next few days.

PA knows that I spent 30 days straight sending letters out during the elections, sometimes 15-16 hrs. a day and they are STUPID to think that I wouldn’t spend more time on them.

They won’t even respond to my letters now. I can’t even get a “don’t take that tone with us” letter. :Hail:

T42

03-03-2005, 05:28 PM

I can't stress this enough. CASH THAT CHEQUE! 1.24 (royalty)*11,000 (authors)= $13, 640.

Do you want to take part in giving them over thirteen thousand bucks?

Canada James

James, I agree with this totally. Pa is probably banking on the fact that all these people will be so depressed about their small checks that they won’t cash them. Make a copy of them for future reference but by all means, everyone cash their checks. Anyone that can post on Pa threads should encourage everyone to cash those checks or send out emails if you have addresses. Also, put the link to absolutewrite on your email letter. (Give them a place to come to) I found you all by pure accident and I don’t want it to take the rest of the “unhappy authors” at Pa to find a source of support as long as it took me. I don’t have access to anyone or I would do it and I certainly can’t post.

T42

03-03-2005, 05:33 PM

Darn, I just passed into being a board fanatic! I wanted to stay a Super Member:Trophy:

Ed Williams

03-03-2005, 05:59 PM

...because it is incredibly hard to admit having made such a mistake, especially with something as personal as a book. Odds are that most of the current PA authors probably tried submitting to legitimate publishers with no luck. PA then comes along and tells them everything they want to hear, and they want to believe it so badly that they let themselves fall for their pitch - "my writing is good, I'm going to be published, my life is going to change for the better, this publisher recognizes my talent." Then the "want to believe" emotion grows even stronger when the newly minted author tells their family and friends. Of course, these people praise their accomplishment, brag on them, and tell them that they are going to be the next Grisham/King/Rowling. The internal validation of their skills, their writing "worth," grows even stronger. Then the book comes out. At first things are great, relatives and friends are purchasing them, life looks pretty good, "people are buying my book!" After awhile, though, that market dries up. The author starts thinking, hey, I'll get it into some bookstores, there are sales to be made there, people will buy it if they can just see it up on the shelves. And the disallusionment begins to set in when several bookstore managers say no. They begin to wonder about some of the rumors they've heard, and they do some talking to other PA authors and also do some personal research. What they find alarms them, and at that point a decision has to be made - admit that a mistake has been made, or refuse to because to do so invalidates some of the earlier assumptions made about their achievement and their writing "worth." For some, they suck it up and admit the mistake. It's painful, but they learn, and they greatly increase their odds of a successful publishing experience with their next project. For the others, they condemn themselves to minimal sales and defensive justifications for PA and what they do.

Bottom line - some people learn, some people deny. There are still people out there who defend Jim Jones or David Koresh. I promise y'all that even if PA goes toes up that there will still be some out there who will defend them, as they just can't let go of that validation. It's very, very sad, but it's an unfortunate reality, I think.

Gratian Gasparri

03-03-2005, 06:05 PM

I noticed that the authors who have gotten the royalty checks are now starting to justify why it was so small and work on a “new strategy” and John with the 200 book is more then willing to help. Why can’t these people just get it?

Because for the most part the authors are honest and intellegent people. While it is generally harder to scam these types of folk, the opposite is also true: once taken, it is more difficult for these types of people to realize they have been taken.

For example, I once worked with a guy whose intellegence was a tad below average. I would say he probably functioned at a grade ten level. He was also a tad crooked, often looking to make a quick buck and he didn't mind if it was at someone else's expense. For these reasons, he fell for every scam in the book. Scamming him was easy. You just had to set it up so that he would believe he was scamming you. Once scammed, however, it wasn't long before he figured it out.

On the other hand, I once worked with a group that trained people for volunteer organizations. The reason we were effective is because we employed a type of theatre in our training in which the hypothetical exercise broke down and a "real" emergency arose. So those being trained quickly learn to pull together and work as a team to get out of the situation, or they flunked.

Of course, we could only stretch "the real" situation so far before the volunteers whom we were training would begin to suspect something was amiss. And eventually someone would, or we would have to tell them. Regardless, it took a lot of planning to set up just right so that everyone was always fooled.

Here's an interesting observation. It was always easier to fool a blue collar worker than a professional. Once fooled, however, you could string the professional much further than you could a blue collar worker. The more experienced the professional, the further you could string them.

In fact, I remember this one time we had a respected judge and the town's most experienced psychiatrist in the crowd. These two guys were very hard nuts to crack and the fact they were close friends and sitting beside each other only made it more difficult. We tried every trick in the book, but they weren't falling for it because they had seen everything in their career. But once we managed to get under their radar and suck them into the action, it was more fun than any of us on the troope had ever had. This is because people of their prestige and experience "could not" be sucked into a hoax. Even after we divulged ourselves, and explained what had happened and why, the judge and psychiatrist were still skeptical! It finally took one of our team's plants who had faked a heart-attack (and been carried off to the emergency) running out and doing a couple pushups for these guys to believe.

T42

03-03-2005, 06:17 PM

Wow, I have to stop thinking out loud. At least stop asking questions that are popping around in my head. Ha, I know why they don’t get it or are in denial. I’m just amazed…ha.... but thanks for the reasons.:banana:

writerjenn

03-03-2005, 06:19 PM

Funny how things come to you in the middle of the night. Between the nightmare of the big snake under my bed and the juicy dream of mr wonderful IN my bed... a-hem... never mind.

Anyway, I had this thought that of course PA doesn't want returns. Do you know how many books would be returned from unhappy readers who expect even a modecum of editing?

Jenn

DeadlyAccurate

03-03-2005, 06:24 PM

Here's an interesting observation. It was always easier to fool a blue collar worker than a professional. Once fooled, however, you could string the professional much further than you could a blue collar worker. The more experienced the professional, the further you could string them.

That would explain why you hear of business professional, people who run entire companies, falling for Nigerian scams. The one group you'd think would be immune to that type of scam lose millions of dollars (sometimes embezzling the money in the process)

Kate Nepveu

03-03-2005, 06:29 PM

Thanks, Ann. I've sent Bonnie a private message in case these questions get lost in the volume of the board.

Dolan

03-03-2005, 06:29 PM

So, is that why my house is full of Tupperware, Mary Kay bath oil and all of those Franklin Mint "collectibles"?

Added later:

Oh, I forgot about the stacks and stacks of my PA published books. Why do I have all of those?

Sheryl Nantus

03-03-2005, 06:47 PM

... but I'll be watching with great interest as John's "small physics" book hits the printing press. Right now he's hawking the 200 Authors theme and attempting to downplay the low royalty check discussion with tales of how you just have to market differently. Ah, the naviety of youth.

yahsureyoubetcha.

:crazy:

I'm still wondering how those PA authors involved figure that they're going to convince a bookstore manager to PAY for a book catalog that they should, by rights, be getting free.

if they won't buy your BOOK, they sure won't be buying a catalog with your book LISTED in it.

*sighs*

and yes, I'm cashing my check. My pride ain't that injured that I ain't gonna take the money and run.

need some new dice for Origins in June, doncha know.

:snoopy:

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 07:15 PM

I'm still wondering how those PA authors involved figure that they're going to convince a bookstore manager to PAY for a book catalog that they should, by rights, be getting free.This is typical for people who try to think "outside the box" when they don't know what the box is.:box:

Of course, no one at PA is going to point out the obvious problem you indicate. Worse, they'd probably close down the posts that point it out.

DeadlyAccurate

03-03-2005, 07:19 PM

... but I'll be watching with great interest as John's "small physics" book hits the printing press. Right now he's hawking the 200 Authors theme and attempting to downplay the low royalty check discussion with tales of how you just have to market differently. Ah, the naviety of youth.

I'm wondering if he's thinking "small" as in, "just a few hundred bucks of royalties," not "I can buy a McD's cheeseburger but no drink"-small.

I'm still wondering how those PA authors involved figure that they're going to convince a bookstore manager to PAY for a book catalog that they should, by rights, be getting free.

if they won't buy your BOOK, they sure won't be buying a catalog with your book LISTED in it.

*sighs*

And I'm wondering why they aren't the least bit suspicious about the fact that the first "200 Authors" thread was deleted after people had legitimate questions about the project. I haven't seen a few of those authors around either.

Susan Gable

03-03-2005, 07:22 PM

They won’t even respond to my letters now. I can’t even get a “don’t take that tone with us” letter. :Hail:

Well, Mem, if it will make you feel better: "Don't take that tone with US!"

:banana:

Susan G.

DaveKuzminski

03-03-2005, 07:25 PM

And I'm wondering why they aren't the least bit suspicious about the fact that the first "200 Authors" thread was deleted after people had legitimate questions about the project. I haven't seen a few of those authors around either.

I'm sure many of them are lurking here wondering how well they'll be received.

Oh, hi, come on in, folks. Ready to help wreck-tify PA?

Sheryl Nantus

03-03-2005, 07:26 PM

Well, Mem, if it will make you feel better: "Don't take that tone with US!"

:banana:

Susan G.

flasher.

;)

victoriastrauss

03-03-2005, 07:40 PM

I noticed; however, I should talk -- he saw an attorney, and that is more than I can say for myself.Yes, but he didn't see the right attorney. Publishing contracts are peculiar and specialized documents, and unless you have an attorney who is familiar with publishing contract language, and knows what should and shouldn't be in there, you probably won't be getting competent advice.

Many people don't realize this. I've seen many posts from PA authors about how their lawyers vetted the PA contract and pronounced it OK, and I often get letters from writers who consulted a lawyer before signing with other bad agencies/publishers. The impulse is good, but without the right attorney there's really no point.

- Victoria

T42

03-03-2005, 07:46 PM

:)Thanks Susan, I needed that....

DaveKuzminski

03-03-2005, 07:48 PM

Victoria, that would be a fine topic for Jaws to write upon briefly with maybe one or two examples of what a regular lawyer would miss so that the resulting article could be posted at multiple sites to educate more writers. That is, if he's willing and can spare the five minutes or so that it might take from his time.

Uncarved

03-03-2005, 07:54 PM

I too am one that PA doesn't return messages to. I've written about 20 emails and six snail mail letters over the past month. I've not got a single return response. Some of those emails had about six people it was going to.

victoriastrauss

03-03-2005, 08:03 PM

This is because people of their prestige and experience "could not" be sucked into a hoax. Even after we divulged ourselves, and explained what had happened and why, the judge and psychiatrist were still skeptical!Yes! This is so true, and I've often thought that it explains why Writer Beware hears from so many educated, accomplished, professional people who've fallen prey to literary scams.

A lot of folks (including many publishing professionals and quite a contingent of pro writers in the organization that sponsors Writer Beware) think that only stupid or inexperienced people are suckered by literary scams. There are even some who see scams as a kind of Darwinism in action, winnowing out the least fit. But while a smart professional person may realize that she needs to do careful research before jumping into a new field, she can as easily assume that the learning curve is less steep for someone like her, or that she can apply the professional skills she already owns. 'Tain't so. I hear from lawyers, doctors, business owners, university professors, social workers, even successful journalists who've been hoodwinked by bottom feeders such as Cris Robins, and are only just waking up to the fact that they should have done more research.

- Victoria

Patricia

03-03-2005, 08:22 PM

Yes, but he didn't see the right attorney. Publishing contracts are peculiar and specialized documents, and unless you have an attorney who is familiar with publishing contract language, and knows what should and shouldn't be in there, you probably won't be getting competent advice.

Thanks Victoria, good point.

Everyone -- on getting scammed; that is another thing I keep kicking myself about. I'm one who "rudely" hangs up on telemarketers, if they get through my zapper, I delete all the bleeding heart "my dad died and left me millions in Africa," and all please donate to the cause. I'm continually amazed at the people who fall for the "let me put my money in your bank, but give me $10,000 to do it." I'm sure you've heard them all. Yet, PA sucked me in. And yes, it almost made me give up writing all together because it has been so discouraging to watch the garbage coming down. BUT, since I do have some support and am doing pretty good with sales, and signings; I keep thinking -- wow, if I can do this good under these circumstances, how well will I do with a real publisher when accepted!? SO I start smiling and thinking about the time ahead, instead of beating myself up some more. Well, almost have stopped beating myself up -- working on it. :)

lindylou45

03-03-2005, 08:28 PM

[COLOR=Navy]I'm only one state down from the House of Scam but, so far, no check. :

I received my two royalties statements today - both of them state:

Total Amount of Royalties Payable: 0
No copies of your book were sold during this royalty period.

:snoopy: I'm a happy girl!!!! That means PA didn't make squat off me!!! :partyguy:

Although, I do wonder why they wasted not one, but two stamps on me. :Shrug:

lindylou45

03-03-2005, 08:29 PM

I bet they at least open it to make sure it doesn't contain a check.

I'm sure you're right.

lindylou45

03-03-2005, 08:34 PM

[QUOTE=Ed WilliamsAnyone wonder what the Vegas odds would be on PA deciding to accept returns?
:Headbang:[/QUOTE]

I know of a couple of people who have gotten emails from PA stating that their books are returnable. However, when they emailed them back asking what was meant by that, they received no response.

We all know our books are non-returnable, so why even make the statement? What a bunch of Moe-rons!!! :crazy:

lindylou45

03-03-2005, 08:39 PM

Ed, you silly-billy! I'll take your money. PA already accepts returns! Lookee here, at those six Independence Books!

If you think about it, all PA books are returnable. You just don't get your money back, any type of credit, or any acknowledgement that the books were received.

Christine N.

03-03-2005, 08:40 PM

Joyce Ann writes:

My husband who was a publisher for many years and
now writes for the music publisher who bought his
business, read the contract and said it was as good as
any he had ever signed. Since he succeeded in his
business, I trust him.

Well, it's great that you trust your husband. It sounds like he was just as naive as she is. He was a publisher? Of what, I would like to know. If PA's were as good as any he signed, then he either didn't read his contracts well enough to see the difference, or he got some really raw deals.

I'm not trying to be mean to anyone, but this statement speaks volumes, IMO.

T42

03-03-2005, 08:43 PM

Did anyone notice my latest artwork? It's my constant reminder of PA...
The big "d" for DUH!:roll:

AnneMarble

03-03-2005, 08:48 PM

Yes! This is so true, and I've often thought that it explains why Writer Beware hears from so many educated, accomplished, professional people who've fallen prey to literary scams.

One reason that's sometimes forgotten is that some professionals, such as university professors, are used to paying for publication. To get your article on intracellular calcium, or rates of depression among police officers, or for that matter, rates of insanity among people who edit articles about intracellular calcium :crazy: ... you almost always have to pay the page rates.

Also, authors aiming at publication in literary magazines are used to getting paid in copies. Getting a dollar advance might seem like going up in the world to them. :( As they've been pretty much brought up in the university creative writing "We don't besmirch ourselves by talking about money" mentality, they might think it's bad for writers to ask certain questions. :(

Patricia

03-03-2005, 08:49 PM

Well, it's great that you trust your husband. It sounds like he was just as naive as she is. He was a publisher? Of what, I would like to know.

Her statement indicates he was a music publisher. As Victoria mentioned re: lawyers -- not all are familiar with the ins and outs of book publishing. So in the same vein -- maybe with the knowledge available to her husband, the contract looked OK.

KellyS.

03-03-2005, 08:55 PM

I got my *ahem* check today. Are ya ready? Are ya sitting down?

$2.54

One sale apparently came from PA site and I think I know the person who bought that one.

One sale was done at 40% off. I have no clue who would have gotten 40% off.

This last one is strange. It shows a 55% disc. and (UK) after that. Any clues on that one? How does a UK sale get that big of a discount?

I also found some interesting emails from back in april of 2004. I had asked some questions about my book being stocked.
So, here's one for the people who are told they have 49 copies in stock when you try to get released from your contract (unless they are saying that the printer stocks them or some junk):

Dear Ms. Sxxxxx,

We do not keep any copies of any of our books in stock. We have little to no
storage for books. The person who told you otherwise was misinformed. The
Information you were given over the telephone is accurate. It is possible
some of the 15 books you are speaking about came from a different
distributor or from PublishAmerica directly. Hope to have helped. Have a
nice day!

Thank You,
Jessica
Author Support Team
Jessica@publishamerica.com (Jessica@publishamerica.com)

This one is dated 3-12-2004 about the line by line editing (this really blows me away):

Dear author:
We are proud to announce yet another milestone in PublishAmerica's history. This month we are opening our fourth (4th!) office building. In keeping with the historic atmosphere of our current offices, our new office will be in our third 100-year-old brownstone building in our historic downtown area.

The new addition will house our largest department, PublishAmerica's editing staff.

Conscious of the importance of having a solid, well-trained and well-educated staff of editors, we presently employ thirty highly qualified fulltime editors whose sole job it is to carefully work through our authors' books, line by line. This means that we are always working on 30 different books at a time.

PublishAmerica is currently the fastest growing employer in our area. Over the past few years, many publishing companies have chosen to outsource parts or all of their book editing to countries in the Far East, where labor is cheap. We have resisted this temptation. Mindful of the "America" in "PublishAmerica", we chose to keep our jobs right here, where labor is top-notch. While we are fond of exporting (to date, we have sold books to 70 countries, from Afghanistan to Zambia!), we feel that a publisher should export books, not jobs.

This month, we are growing our editing staff with six more seasoned editors. Hence the opening of our fourth office, a moment of celebration we thought we ought to share with you.

Thank you.

Uncarved

03-03-2005, 08:57 PM

I'm deeply saddened to see my royalty statement showing a sale. I really really was trying to not sell a copy. I can be assured it is not a friend nor family member.
$1.36, standard PA website price of $16.95 is what sold.

Blah.

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 08:58 PM

ZaZ

03-03-2005, 09:00 PM

Then one day, Uncle Jim sat at his desk, head in hands, "No, I can't index this thread any longer! For the love of Alf, it's now 3,000 pages long at 100 posts per page!"

Feeling this distress abruptly distort the universal bar tab, ZaZ runs to his aid, opens the latest post, "Uncle Jim, you're free! We're all the way back to the beginning."

"Zaz, you never read the beginning."

"Oh yeah," he cracks a beer.

Uncarved

03-03-2005, 09:05 PM

This month, we are growing our editing staff with six more seasoned editors. Hence the opening of our fourth office, a moment of celebration we thought we ought to share with you.

Thank you.

Looking at the people working for them and where they advertise their jobs, we can be sure they meant that they sprinkle them with curry every morning.

AnneMarble

03-03-2005, 09:05 PM

underthecity

03-03-2005, 09:09 PM

Found this posting (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11748.htm)by jck on the PA board. He recommends his fellow authors check out a webpage "that will help you understand how the publishing industry works" and "When you see the facts you will appreciate what a great job PA are actually doing."

Print on Demand Publisher (http://www.fonerbooks.com/cornered.htm)

Please check this out. It's very, um, enlightening.

underthecity

PixelFish

03-03-2005, 09:11 PM

PublishAmerica is currently the fastest growing employer in our area. Over the past few years, many publishing companies have chosen to outsource parts or all of their book editing to countries in the Far East, where labor is cheap. We have resisted this temptation. Mindful of the "America" in "PublishAmerica", we chose to keep our jobs right here, where labor is top-notch. While we are fond of exporting (to date, we have sold books to 70 countries, from Afghanistan to Zambia!), we feel that a publisher should export books, not jobs.

This month, we are growing our editing staff with six more seasoned editors. Hence the opening of our fourth office, a moment of celebration we thought we ought to share with you.

Thank you.

Do real publishing companies outsource their editing to the Far East? This claim seems really spurious....and more than a little impractical.

Dolan

03-03-2005, 09:12 PM

There is a trick some of us PA authors play on ourselves. There is a page on Amazon.com where we enter PA and check a box for listing PA bestsellers and a list of books comes up from #1 to #8,000+.

The list has no meaning at all but if we PA authors find our book listed at, lets say, #9 we go on the PA message board and brag that our book is in the top 10 PA bestsellers. We believe that our book is selling like hotcakes regardless that we have an Amazon.com ranking of 1,982,768 or higher.

A PA author messaged today that he received his royalty statement and only sold 52 books but his book had once been #4. He lamented for the authors whose books listed below his.

My book once listed at #4. I hard-copied it and plan to frame it for stocking stuffers for family, next Christmas.

Patricia

03-03-2005, 09:12 PM

Has anyone heard more about something that was mentioned on one of PA's boards recently? Is it true that PA is no longer accepting children's books?

If so, any theories as to why this is so? And are they including YA books in this as well?

If I remember correctly, they put a page restriction on children's books. I forgot what the minimum was, but they upped it quite a bit. Not sure about YA. Also, I believe they said that the illustrations had to be black and white only. It's been almost a year ago that I read this info -- if it has changed again, I didn't catch the thread.

lindylou45

03-03-2005, 09:16 PM

Publishing contracts are peculiar and specialized documents, and unless you have an attorney who is familiar with publishing contract language, and knows what should and shouldn't be in there, you probably won't be getting competent advice.
- Victoria

Just one more thing I learned from my PA experience. I didn't have the right type of attorney either. :Headbang:

tab

03-03-2005, 09:16 PM

One reason that's sometimes forgotten is that some professionals, such as university professors, are used to paying for publication. To get your article on intracellular calcium, or rates of depression among police officers, or for that matter, rates of insanity among people who edit articles about intracellular calcium :crazy: ... you almost always have to pay the page rates.

Also, authors aiming at publication in literary magazines are used to getting paid in copies. Getting a dollar advance might seem like going up in the world to them. :( As they've been pretty much brought up in the university creative writing "We don't besmirch ourselves by talking about money" mentality, they might think it's bad for writers to ask certain questions. :(

Ann, where did you get the idea that academics pay to publish in peer reviewed journals? I worked as a research assistant during college and I worked as a professional researcher for a year. We published in many peer-reviewed journals and we never paid a cent. There is a certain hierarchy among journals. Perhaps the lower tier ones require authors to pay, but I've never heard of this. Maybe it depends on the discipline? I may not know as much as you about this since I'm not a Ph.d. I've only worked under Ph.d.s (Princiapal Investigators and otherwise) and written articles specifically for peer review. I just find it odd that this would be so, because most academics work under the pressure of "publish or perish." If all it takes to publish is to pay, then many aspiring, untenured adjuncts wouldn't be in the stressful position they are in.

AnneMarble

03-03-2005, 09:22 PM

Do real publishing companies outsource their editing to the Far East? This claim seems really spurious....and more than a little impractical.

Some science and technical presses are doing this now. However, as far as I know, it's mostly done for copyediting and proofreading (and some technical writing!). I doubt anyone would outsource the editors who do in-depth work, such as structural and line editing. I hope not!

AnneMarble

03-03-2005, 09:31 PM

Ann, where did you get the idea that academics pay to publish in peer reviewed journals? I worked as a research assistant during college and I worked as a professional researcher for a year. We published in many peer-reviewed journals and we never paid a cent. There is a certain hierarchy among journals. Perhaps the lower tier ones require authors to pay, but I've never heard of this. Maybe it depends on the discipline?

I work for a peer-reviewed journal as an editor. (I'm actually with the printing company, not the actual journal.) There are page charges, plus extra charges for halftones or color articles. Of course, generally, the authors themselves don't have to pay those costs. The departments handle the costs. Also, authors can get grants from the journal office to waive those charges.

I know some journals subsidize all or parts of the costs of publishing, but some do charge page costs. For example, PNAS charges page costs, and while they're not Nature or Science, they're a major journal.

Ed Williams

03-03-2005, 09:33 PM

...explaining what that really means:

The Deception is list as the #1 best seller on Amazon.com for PA authors and has been in the top 4 best sellers for a long time. This may sound like a great feet but according to PA it has only sold a total of 18 books since Aug, 04. Royalty check for $20.12 is how much was paid. I know we all beleive that being #1 means something but not really.I'm not going to say anything else, a quick read through should tell y'all everything you need to know...

The thread this quote came from:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8040.htm

Dolan

03-03-2005, 09:33 PM

Actually, I wish my book had been edited in Zambia. It would have been a better book.

Kate Nepveu

03-03-2005, 09:42 PM

Ann, where did you get the idea that academics pay to publish in peer reviewed journals?I know from personal experience that physics journals have "page charges," which come *after* the article has been accepted, i.e., payment is necessary but not sufficient (and usually comes out of grant or department funds), while law reviews do not (because they run on student labor).

tab

03-03-2005, 09:44 PM

I work for a peer-reviewed journal as an editor. (I'm actually with the printing company, not the actual journal.) There are page charges, plus extra charges for halftones or color articles. Of course, generally, the authors themselves don't have to pay those costs. The departments handle the costs. Also, authors can get grants from the journal office to waive those charges.

I know some journals subsidize all or parts of the costs of publishing, but some do charge page costs. For example, PNAS charges page costs, and while they're not Nature or Science, they're a major journal.

I think it depends on the journal. For example, some open source journals ask the author to pay part of the costs. Of course there is a concurrent movement among open source journals to pay the author. However, I think we should make it clear that not all academic, peer reviewed journals charge their authors to publish. From my knowledge, APA journals, JAMA, JAIDS, etc do not. I worked with primarily social science and epidemiological journals. Also, many university libraries do, somewhat reluctantly, pay substantial fees to by the journals themselves. This is not necessarily the same as the author having to pay a fee. To be sure, academic publishing is a different world, with different rules, but I just wanted to point this out. Sorry to get off of track, you all probably know more than I about it. Sometimes my experiences with things have been a lot different then others.

Sheryl Nantus

03-03-2005, 09:48 PM

...explaining what that really means:

I'm not going to say anything else, a quick read through should tell y'all everything you need to know...

The thread this quote came from:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8040.htm

actually, I'm waiting for them to do the REAL math - it's not how much you MADE, it's how much you SPENT before you got the money BACK.

willing to bet that the poster who claims to have made hundreds spent more than that hawking his wares...

:poke:

KellyS.

03-03-2005, 09:50 PM

I came across 5 PA authors (including myself) and their royalty amounts.

TOTAL FOR 5 PA Authors royalties are....... $6.50

If that doesn't tell it all.........

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 09:54 PM

He was a publisher? Of what, I would like to know. If PA's were as good as any he signed, then he either didn't read his contracts well enough to see the difference, or he got some really raw deals.

The operative word here is that her husband was a publisher; the PublishAmerica swind . . . contract is good for PublishAmerica, the publisher; it's not good for the author.

akaa1a

03-03-2005, 09:55 PM

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 10:00 PM

Do real publishing companies outsource their editing to the Far East? This claim seems really spurious....and more than a little impractical.

Not editing, no; remember to PublishAmerica "editing" means crude text formatting.

And yes, digital publishers do rely on China and India to provide obscenely cheap labor for scanning/proofing sorts of digital publishing.

And it shows. They also still use cheap outsource labor to keyboard in books, using two people to keyboard the same text, then running diff, a unix utility, to come up with the differences between the two files; those differences are checked against the original, and the"better" file is edited.

Sheryl Nantus

03-03-2005, 10:01 PM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8040.htm

A little tongue and cheek I would say...

Message
Hmmmm.
If sales are this low with #1 PA authors, how does PA stay in business? Somone better do the math because I'm rotten at deciphering this stuff!

Any thoughts Infocenter? We certainly wouldn't want our company to be suffering a financial loss...right?

oh, that one should be gone soon enough...

I see no one's doing the real math about how many copies they had to give away to get a single sale.

PA authors - I know you're reading this - DO THE MATH!
you should NOT have to buy your own copies and then try to resell them. Wouldn't you rather be WRITING than hawking books???

Friends don't let Friends be Scammed by PublishAmerica.

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 10:02 PM

Some science and technical presses are doing this now. However, as far as I know, it's mostly done for copyediting and proofreading (and some technical writing!). I doubt anyone would outsource the editors who do in-depth work, such as structural and line editing. I hope not!

This is true, particularly for chemistry and engineering. The articles are still peer reviewed, but you do pay. I suspect that this is becuase of the costs for typesetting formulae and the line art for charts and diagrams. I can provide specifics if someone wants.

mdin

03-03-2005, 10:03 PM

tab

03-03-2005, 10:06 PM

oh, that one should be gone soon enough...

I see no one's doing the real math about how many copies they had to give away to get a single sale.

PA authors - I know you're reading this - DO THE MATH!
you should NOT have to buy your own copies and then try to resell them. Wouldn't you rather be WRITING than hawking books???

Friends don't let Friends be Scammed by PublishAmerica.

I think they should focus on profit, not simply sales. For example, one author claims to have "made close to $500 in the past 3 months" in addition to $60 dollars in royalties. However, did he subtract for his marketing endeavours (travel, time, etc)? Did he markup the price of his book? If so, he must be a great salesman. His book retails for $16.95. I don't trust the numbers.

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 10:09 PM

I should point out that book publishing of scholarly works does frequently, though not always, in clude an advance as well as royalties. I know that one faculty member I did rights for was given an advance, and the publisher saw to it that there were review copies sent to all the major news papers, a long list of academic scholarly journals, and that there were several rather fancy lunches at the publisher's expense, two trips to academic conferences, advertisements in several journals, one of them a two color full page glossy spread.

The book began to pay royalties in the first six months, and has been reprinted twice in paperback.

On the other hand, I've never been paid for any of the articles I've had in scholarly journals, though I did get several copies, and sometimes, fifty or so off prints, that is, little pamphlets printed just like the journal, on the same stock, but which only contain my article.

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 10:11 PM

Locus is roughly equivalent to Publishers Weekly, except it focuses on the SF and Fantasy market (and it's monthly).

tab

03-03-2005, 10:11 PM

Jaws

03-03-2005, 10:30 PM

Having been in the academic publishing game off and on for a quarter of a decade, I'd like to think I know a little bit about it. To begin with, saying that all academic publishing is the same is a little bit like saying that all trade publishing is the same.
Some scientific journals do impose page charges. These are uniformly journals that tend to carry illustrations that are critical to the article, and almost uniformly are scientific journals that are not affiliated with an educational or major nonprofit institution. For example, Cell (annual subscription: $1,300) has imposed page charges in the recent past (I just don't know for certain about today); certain of its competitors do not. This is a function as much of the historical difficulty in putting graphics into pre-digital-imaging-device layouts as it is of profit motives.
Keep in mind, too, that the payment for scientific publications is in tenure, in endowed professorships, in grant money. In other words, there is a specific monetary benefit to publishing scientific material that is not on the simple balance sheet, but is definitely there, even if it is related more to who sees that article than to how many people see that article. Scientific American, for example, has a far higher circulation than does Nature, but nowhere near the "prestige" or ability to attract research funding and offers of teaching positions and promotions. For that reason, you don't see much at all in Scientific American authored by academics who have not already achieved tenure, and rarely by academics who have not been promoted to full professor; the junior folks are busy trying to publish in the "prestige" journals.
Once one gets outside of the natural sciences, it is only the very rare journal that imposes "page charges" or anything similar. It is also the rare journal that is not associated with a university or major subject-area nonprofit organization. For example, the affiliation of the UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS LAW REVIEW is pretty obvious!
Last, and far from least, keep in mind that the "page charges" imposed by the publications that do so are explicitly linked to production costs. On cannot say the same about a vanity press.

DeadlyAccurate

03-03-2005, 10:31 PM

Message:
lbs
Your answer is easy. We don't get royalties on the books we buy with our author discount, but every author usually buys 25 to 50 copies and most by anywhere from 100 and more. PA makes there money there. 10,000 authors buying 50 books each..average. Believe me they make good money!

Kevin Clark, come on down! Looks like someone's seen the light.

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 10:34 PM

Good point. Were you the one who told the story of the PA author who turned an academic press down for PublishAmerica?

No, though a very good friend, with solid scholarly publication credits, including an important award for his first book, has published two books with them.

The text is OK in terms of spelling and grammar, but the books need an editor. They would be better had there been an editor to deal with certain writerly twitches, and some major structural issues, and some continuity issues, but the typesetting is truly awful. It isn't typeset. Yes, he used em-dashes, but there are problems with a trailing em-dashs and closing printer's quotes being inverted, for instance, and the usual rivers and odd leading; it changes over the course of one of the books.

keltora

03-03-2005, 10:34 PM

Bonnie, I don't know how it is with EVERY publisher, but with mine, I call the ordering department and ask what the latest sales numbers are. Or I email. And I always get an up-to-date figure. My publisher is a regional history publisher whose titles are available regionally and online.

Back to lurk . . .

underthecity

I get the numbers on the royalty statement, but I can call up any of my publishers (or email them) and they will tell me.

Because it's not suppose to be a secret kept from the author.

Laura J. Underwood (A Little Bit of Travis Tea--My ATLANTA NIGHTS can poke out your EYE OF ARGON any day!)

DRAGON'S TONGUE forthcoming from Meisha Merlin in the Summer of 2006. Preview a copy at http://www.embiid.net.

tab

03-03-2005, 10:39 PM

Once one gets outside of the natural sciences, it is only the very rare journal that imposes "page charges" or anything similar. It is also the rare journal that is not associated with a university or major subject-area nonprofit organization. For example, the affiliation of the UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS LAW REVIEW is pretty obvious!
Last, and far from least, keep in mind that the "page charges" imposed by the publications that do so are explicitly linked to production costs. On cannot say the same about a vanity press.

Great post!

Patricia

03-03-2005, 10:40 PM

Kevin Clark, come on down! Looks like someone's seen the light.

Actually, Kevin carefully constructs his remarks to keep from getting the boot -- and one would wonder why he is still there. But we all know (don't we Kevin?) that he loves being the local ladies man. Also, as some call them -- part of the elite. ;) Just couldn't resist.

I do believe that some of the people who linger are not really serious writers and don't expect to write or submit another manuscript. However, the others? We can only hope they come out of denial soon.

aka eraser

03-03-2005, 10:47 PM

From the PA thread Ed linked to:

Message:
lbs
Your answer is easy. We don't get royalties on the books we buy with our author discount, but every author usually buys 25 to 50 copies and most by anywhere from 100 and more. PA makes there money there. 10,000 authors buying 50 books each..average. Believe me they make good money!

Prepare another plate at our table. I think company's coming.

DaveKuzminski

03-03-2005, 10:53 PM

I think they should focus on profit, not simply sales. For example, one author claims to have "made close to $500 in the past 3 months" in addition to $60 dollars in royalties. However, did he subtract for his marketing endeavours (travel, time, etc)? Did he markup the price of his book? If so, he must be a great salesman. His book retails for $16.95. I don't trust the numbers.

I'd like to know how many books were sold to earn that $500. Did he make a dollar in profit on each book and sell 500? For all we know, that could be how much was paid by the author's customers without deducting what the author paid for those books to begin with, meaning he could have sold as few as 25 copies.

I don't trust the numbers, either. The numbers are simply too incomplete.

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 11:07 PM

PA authors' numbers never take into account the cost of sales. Those PA authors who do the calculation leave PA all the more quickly.

Sassenach

03-03-2005, 11:15 PM

PA authors' numbers never take into account the cost of sales. Those PA authors who do the calculation leave PA all the more quickly.

Isn't this true for everyone? I know lots of writers pubbed by big houses who spend varying amounts of their own $$ to promote their books.

When their royalties arrive, I assume their accountants calculate the 'cost of sales'. But aren't they two separate numbers?

tab

03-03-2005, 11:27 PM

I'd like to know how many books were sold to earn that $500. Did he make a dollar in profit on each book and sell 500? For all we know, that could be how much was paid by the author's customers without deducting what the author paid for those books to begin with, meaning he could have sold as few as 25 copies.

I don't trust the numbers, either. The numbers are simply too incomplete.

I was wondering the same thing. Lets say $560 is a nice profit for a PA author. To make a nice profit, an author would have to go beyond his immediate peer/family group, have a particularly good book, and have found a price at the equilibirum, i.e just above his purchase price and just below the price where it becomes too expensive for consumers. Because I think that PA books are already too expensive, I find it hard to believe anyone is making any kind of profit.

Diana Hignutt

03-03-2005, 11:33 PM

I was wondering the same thing. Lets say $560 is a nice profit for a PA author. To make a nice profit, an author would have to go beyond his immediate peer/family group, have a particularly good book, and have found a price at the equilibirum, i.e just above his purchase price and just below the price where it becomes too expensive for consumers. Because I think that PA books are already too expensive, I find it hard to believe anyone is making any kind of profit.

I probably made right around that with my PA book, but I wouldn't call it profit. My profit would work out to be a negative number of considerable size. But there I was, all doe-eyed, expecting the next big promtion would be the one... until I wised up.

diana

tab

03-03-2005, 11:36 PM

I probably made right around that with my PA book, but I wouldn't call it profit. My profit would work out to be a negative number of considerable size. But there I was, all doe-eyed, expecting the next big promtion would be the one... until I wised up.

diana
Well marketing expenses would cut into profit margins.

CaoPaux

03-03-2005, 11:37 PM

Isn't this true for everyone? I know lots of writers pubbed by big houses who spend varying amounts of their own $$ to promote their books.

When their royalties arrive, I assume their accountants calculate the 'cost of sales'. But aren't they two separate numbers? I'd think they'd be deductible business expenses, too.

I shudder to think how many PA folks acting as their own retailer will run afoul of the IRS.

DaveKuzminski

03-03-2005, 11:40 PM

I'd think they be deductible business expenses, too.

I shudder to think how many PA folks acting as their own retailer will run afoul of the IRS .

Eventually, one PA author will run afoul of the IRS. When that happens, you can bet that a lot of the other PA authors will be shaken severely enough that they'll drop out of the PA tree.

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 11:42 PM

Isn't this true for everyone? I know lots of writers pubbed by big houses who spend varying amounts of their own $$ to promote their books.Most of the promotion costs for the authors are minor (and optional). If they go on an official book tour, the publisher will pay for it (though those are rare).

Also, the writers get their money up front as an advance. So they have a few thousand in the bank before doing any promotion at all.

My promotional activities probably cost me around $25. I did go to a few extra SF cons, but those were basically tax-deductible vacations. Even if I added those costs to my expenses, it was still quite a bit less than my advance.

Sheryl Nantus

03-03-2005, 11:47 PM

the funny thing is that you don't have to be a math whiz to do the math - every freelance writer has to take care of the math and it's not that hard.

1) what did you spend this year? (buying your own books, bookmarks, business cards, donations to ArtistFirst Radio etc.)
2) what did you MAKE this year? (selling your own books, the dimunitive royalty *cough* check)

subtract and what you have left is what you REALLY made - if anything.

I doubt that $500 would stand up to close scrutiny.

NicoleJLeBoeuf

03-03-2005, 11:59 PM

A lot of folks (including many publishing professionals and quite a contingent of pro writers in the organization that sponsors Writer Beware) think that only stupid or inexperienced people are suckered by literary scams.Exactly. And the corollary to this is, these people are not just the longest to figure it out (as others have so aptly stated); these people are the longest in denial once they do start to figure it out. If only stupid people get scammed, then admitting to being scammed is tantamount to admitting to being stupid. So you get that shame and humiliation factor that keeps the victim from reporting the scam -- scammers count on that.

I remember telling my parents, when I was a teenager first exploring new religious choices in the wide world, that I didn't think it was likely I'd get brainwashed. My Mom said that my holding that belief was exactly what made her afraid for me. It's fortunate that I didn't encounter that sort of danger until college, when I'd outgrown at least some of my naivete and was no longer in "seeking" mode.

DeadlyAccurate

03-04-2005, 12:07 AM

Grabbed before PA can remove it

Message:
I really want you to pay attention to this very carefully. I received my royalty checks today. For Skeletons in his closet, I received, $1.59.
For Swivel Hips, Pitiful and Ugly Mug, I received $27.81.

Now what I want you to understand is this:
I am going to my list of 100 people that I gave you and ask each of them how many copies they bought or if they bought one. Then I am going to all my friends that I chat with on all the chat boards and ask them how many copies that they bought. Then if I find out that I have sold over 38 books as you have it here, I am going to sue you to the Supreme Court if that's what it takes.

You people are despicable. You disgust me.

Now you can take this post off but you can't take it off on AW.

Bonnie Gibson

Wow! Awesome post, Bonnie.

NicoleJLeBoeuf

03-04-2005, 12:07 AM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8040.htmWhat really makes me sad about that thread is the one author trying to make everyone else feel ashamed for being interested in the money. You know, the whole "Well it doesn't matter to me because I did it all for my family."

I want to pick her up by the shoulders and shake her! Listen, amiga, you may have just wanted a one-shot book to show your family how much you love them, and bully for you. But don't you dare get all condescending towards authors who actually want to make a living through their writing! PA has scammed many a career writer who thought this would be their big break. Don't even get me started on those who maxxed out their credit cards to buy books to sell out their trunks! How... insulting!

I'm sure she means well. But she's a poster-child PA booster who--I hate to say it, given my impassioned belief in the possibility of change--will probably never leave the fold simply because she already got what she wanted. So she will be forever lecturing her fellow authors, rather selfishly: "I did it for my family, that's good enough for me, and it should be good enough for you." You know, I'm doing it for my family too. I'm doing it so maybe someday I can support my husband with my books, to repay him for having supported my writing with his long hours behind the company computer screen.

Patricia

03-04-2005, 12:13 AM

Bonnie!! Yeah!!:guns:

Patricia

03-04-2005, 12:22 AM

Message:
Bonnie,
Weren't you on the NYT list too? Sheesh, something has GOT to be amiss!

What's AW?

This is what is sad -- some are quite content and never look outside the PA "box" and have no idea of what's going on. I hope some one will clue her in privately. I don't have her email, or I would do it.

CaoPaux

03-04-2005, 12:23 AM

Yoiks! They've given someone time to respond to Bonnie's post!
-----
http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11749.htm

Message:
Bonnie,
Weren't you on the NYT list too? Sheesh, something has GOT to be amiss!

What's AW?
-----

And I think that pretty much says it all... :scared:

ETA: *snerk* Ann beat me to it.

akaa1a

03-04-2005, 12:24 AM

:partyguy: :PartySmil :Clap: :TheWave: :Cheer: :snoopy:

March 3, 2005 is National "Go Bonnie, You Rock" Day!!!!!
There is hope!

mdin

03-04-2005, 12:30 AM

oh man. Bonnie's a goner.

lucyishome

03-04-2005, 12:33 AM

Wow Bonnie congratulations. I do believe you now qualify for a ex-patriate t-shirt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anne

:Clap:

tab

03-04-2005, 12:33 AM

Bonnie Gibson

3/03/2005
15:42:48
http://www.publishamerica.com/messageboard/icons/blackeye.gifSubject: To Publish America info center.
http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/ip.pl?ip=11749_0.main (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/ip.pl?ip=11749_0.main)

Message:
I really want you to pay attention to this very carefully. I received my royalty checks today. For Skeletons in his closet, I received, $1.59.
For Swivel Hips, Pitiful and Ugly Mug, I received $27.81.

Now what I want you to understand is this:
I am going to my list of 100 people that I gave you and ask each of them how many copies they bought or if they bought one. Then I am going to all my friends that I chat with on all the chat boards and ask them how many copies that they bought. Then if I find out that I have sold over 38 books as you have it here, I am going to sue you to the Supreme Court if that's what it takes.

You people are despicable. You disgust me.

Now you can take this post off but you can't take it off on AW.

Bonnie Gibson

Good luck! We are all with you.

Patricia

03-04-2005, 12:36 AM

oh man. Bonnie's a goner.

Bonnie may be "happily" gone from the PA board -- but she is a real WINNER on the AW board. I truely admire her stand.

Coa -- yeah, for once I was alert! :sleepy:

Sheryl Nantus

03-04-2005, 12:39 AM

GO BONNIE!!!!!!!

YOU GO, GIRL!!!!

YOU ROCK!!!!

:TheWave: :TheWave: :TheWave: :TheWave:

ZaZ

03-04-2005, 12:43 AM

You people are despicable. You disgust me.

Love the vehemence. Now that's takin' the tone. :welcome:

Dolan

03-04-2005, 12:43 AM

I once chastised that PA author, you speak of, for the very same sort of thing. Trying to make other PA authors behave the way she had decided that PA authors should all behave.

Within minutes, I was tarred and feathered, taken out back and shot, hanged, drawn and quartered along with other acts to brutal to speak of in public.

For weeks, new PA authors would come on the boards, see what I had said and begin the flogging all over again.

A badly broken PA author, this one is.

T42

03-04-2005, 12:44 AM

Nicole, I agree with you and it sad. I even wrote that person an email because we became friends in my short time on the threads and I got the same reply by mail. It saddens be and frustrates me.

DeadlyAccurate

03-04-2005, 12:47 AM

Gone now. That was fast, even by their standards. :)

T42

03-04-2005, 12:47 AM

Ha, I just tried to go to Bonnies post and it has me blocked! Go figure...hahahha

underthecity

03-04-2005, 12:53 AM

Bonnie,

I am so impressed with that post, and I think it's too bad it's gone already. However, I like to think that a good number of authors read it and are starting to think.

From what I've noticed in reading your previous posts, other authors over there listened to you, knew you, and respected you. I don't know if I can say you were "big shot," but you tried to help so many other authors with your store and various bits of wisdom.

I'm wondering if you can repost the message before you get blocked? It might not hurt to repost until you're banned.

Awesome. Wish there were more over there like you.

underthecity

Sassenach

03-04-2005, 01:09 AM

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 01:12 AM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11752.htm

Message:
Dear Ms. Gibson,

You accomplish nothing but reducing your own credibility by making such
nonsensical and barely coherent accusations.

Your royalty statement will only show sales from that royalty period for
which we have been paid. Some retailers and distributors have a grace
period of 30, 60, or even 90 days. Any sales not shown on one statement
should certainly be included on the next.

So, therefore, the people on your list may have purchased your book up to
three months ago, and the purchases might still not be credited in the
February statement, but would be included on your August royalty statement.

We will expect your prompt apology.

Thank You,

PublishAmerica Author Support

----------------------------

-----------------------------------

akaa1a

03-04-2005, 01:12 AM

Appears that some authors are trying to "do the math" over at PA.:Headbang:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8040.htm

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 01:15 AM

Bonnie, I wonder if you are banned yet?
I thought your post to them was exteremly coherent, in fact, I have your address, and I'll be sending you a t-shirt! That was a great letter and their post is absolutely in line with the reason Ed calls them the three stooges...what crap, excuse me, I mean...what crap.

I wonder how the post FROM PA to Bonnie says it's from Bonnie once you get into it.

T42

03-04-2005, 01:19 AM

I sent this letter to our “200 friend”. I’m sure he will send it straight to Pa. How sad for him that they already got the same info from me the other day.:faint:

John,

I am an author of PA that has had my book “printed” by them and I am wondering just how much PA pays you to be there “spokes person”? You should be ashamed for giving these people hope and justifying PA as a legit company. Do you believe in what comes around goes around? Do you sleep well at night?

What makes you think a company that cannot even get the authors books in the stores will get your new “200 magazine” in stores? Are you for real?

Facts: Their royalty contract is only a royalty contract on paper. They claim they will bear all the expense of publishing your book and then pay you royalties, but in reality, and in a nutshell, this is how it works.

Submit: You feel good about your choice. You have researched many publishers and have selected this one.

Accept: Oh, rapturous day! They love your book and want to publish it and give you a royalty contract to boot!

Typeset: From your file, they will typeset your manuscript and design the book.

Cover and More: A staff artist produces a cover while someone in the office assigns an ISBN and arranges for the copyright.

Online Proof: You cannot really see anything but the front of the book, which looks great. Not happy with the picture they chose so they send you a new idea. Still cannot really tell what it will look like on the book but it seems to look okay on the online proof.

Production: Upon your approval, they will put your book into production.
You're ready to go, right? Wrong.
Nowhere in this process has anyone edited or proofed your book other than you. You have had minimal, if any, input regarding the cover. You have also signed away many of your rights to the publisher. The only way the publisher will print more copies is if someone orders them through bookstores or if you pay for them.

According to your promotions and basic letters sent to anyone questioning PA, Barnes And Noble, along with Boarders are your main buyers of PA authors. This has not been the case as of yet.
In practice, this publisher will charge you to buy your books at a 25%-30% discount. So, if they put a $20 retail price on your book, you will pay between $14 and $15 per book and this does not include the shipping and handling cost. A book, which cost the publishers about $3.00 to make.

As quoted by Shawn from PA:

The retail price of the book is $19.95. It will be available from our website for $16.95.

PublishAmerica offers the following author discounts:

1-20 copies: 20%
21-49 copies: 30%
50-99 copies: 40%
100 or more copies: 45%

On the upside, you can sell each book for a $5-$6 profit, but only in direct sales. Do you personally know that many people who want to buy your book? On the downside, it would be financially unreasonable for you to peddle them to bookstores because booksellers want a 40% discount. In real dollars, the bookseller will pay you $12 for your $20 book-a book for which you paid $14 or $15. You'll lose money on each sale.

John,

I wrote B&N a letter and then followed it up with a phone call. (Mary Ellen Keating is the vice president of B&N) This is a copy of there reply to me concerning selling our books in there stores and doing book signings.
I dare you to post all of this on the PA threads. It would be taken off immediately as would you!
I lasted less then a week on the threads because I dared to ask questions.

Dear Memory McDermott
Your letter to Mary Ellen Keating was forwarded to me for a response as mydepartment manages the business relationships Barnes & Noble has with newstart up publishers, and self-published authors, like yourself. All the titles PublishAmerica produces are available to Barnes & Noblecustomers either through orders in the stores, or online via Barnes &Noble.com (www.bn.com (http://www.bn.com/)). The books are printed (on demand) when they areordered, and shipped to the customer's home or back to the store forcustomer pick up. The terms for Publish America titles are not competitivein the trade bookstore marketplace: the books are non-returnable, thediscount is not favorable, and most of the titles including Tea for TwoNature's Apothecary are about $5.00 over the going price for titles in thecategory. These factors in combination inform our decision not to stock thetitles in the stores, and for the stores to decide not to do an event withthe titles. I hope this information is helpful.
Marcella A Smith
Director Small Press & Vendor Relations
Barnes & Noble, Inc
122 Fifth AvenueNew York, NY 10011

Sheryl Nantus

03-04-2005, 01:19 AM

I won't say it here.
Bonnie

:Ssh:

snarky SOB's, ain't they?

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 01:19 AM

Dear Ms. Gibson,

You accomplish nothing but reducing your own credibility by making such
nonsensical and barely coherent accusations.

We will expect your prompt apology.

Thank You,

PublishAmerica Author Support

--------------------------------------------------------------- You tell those jerks that you'll kiss an ape right on its pink heiny before you apologize to them about anything - the nerve of those crooks! Bonnie, I read your earlier post, I so respect and admire what you did, I would give you a thousand of these "respect point" deals if I could. You are one classy, classy lady.

Sheryl Nantus

03-04-2005, 01:21 AM

problem is, I think 200AuthorBoy really believes his own methods will work when others have gone down that road and failed.

it's not just him, it's all the newbies who rush into the bookstores flush with author's copies in hand and asking for orders to be placed.

however, anyone who DOES go in for this 200authors thang should really consider having their heads examined.

T42

03-04-2005, 01:23 AM

Dear Ms. Gibson,

You accomplish nothing but reducing your own credibility by making such
nonsensical and barely coherent accusations.

Your royalty statement will only show sales from that royalty period for
which we have been paid. Some retailers and distributors have a grace
period of 30, 60, or even 90 days. Any sales not shown on one statement
should certainly be included on the next.

So, therefore, the people on your list may have purchased your book up to
three months ago, and the purchases might still not be credited in the
February statement, but would be included on your August royalty statement.

We will expect your prompt apology.

PublishAmerica Author Support

---------------------------------------------------------------
And how dare you take that tone with us!
Ha, you go girl:banana:

Thank You,

Sher2

03-04-2005, 01:27 AM

Dear Ms. Gibson,

You accomplish nothing but reducing your own credibility by making such
nonsensical and barely coherent accusations.

Your royalty statement will only show sales from that royalty period for
which we have been paid. Some retailers and distributors have a grace
period of 30, 60, or even 90 days. Any sales not shown on one statement
should certainly be included on the next.

So, therefore, the people on your list may have purchased your book up to
three months ago, and the purchases might still not be credited in the
February statement, but would be included on your August royalty statement.

We will expect your prompt apology.

Thank You,

PublishAmerica Author Support

---------------------------------------------------------------
Bonnie, your letter to PA was awesome, as was your board post. Go, Bonnie! AuthorNonsupport's reply to you is all too typical -- and truly nonsensical -- and I hope you gave 'em what-for in your response. I also hope you told 'em hell will freeze over before you apologize. You'll probably get the "dramatic escapade" letter next. Don't let it faze you. Keep blasting 'em back with both barrels.:Clap::Cheers:

Sassenach

03-04-2005, 01:28 AM

Obviously the guy pitching the catalog knows nothing about the business. To give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he's basing it on some businesses [e.g., rubber stamp and other craft/hobby companies] that charge for their catalogs. However, they almost always refund the catalog cost with one's first order.

underthecity

03-04-2005, 01:31 AM

Your royalty statement will only show sales from that royalty period for
which we have been paid. Some retailers and distributors have a grace
period of 30, 60, or even 90 days. Any sales not shown on one statement
should certainly be included on the next.

Ummmmmmm, I'm confused. I thought the books had to be prepaid, meaning that if one wants a copy, one pays immediately for it. Does amazon.com work that way? If you buy a copy off of amazon.com, you pay for it right away. Does amazon.com then send PA the payment, who then prints it and sends it?

If that's the case, the infocenter is full of s**t like everything else they shovel out.

But, I guess I'm preaching to the choir.

underthecity

Trapped in amber

03-04-2005, 01:36 AM

But not before I got a few choice words in. I also got a number of emails from friends at PA supporting me. I'd like to say thanks to them.

Bonnie

Bonnie, that was wonderful, I hope lots of people saw your post before it went, and I'm so glad other PA authors are supporting you; you deserve it.

:Sun:

Dolan

03-04-2005, 01:39 AM

Does this mean that you are going to stop stocking my PA book in your bookstore?

I like you a lot! Better times ahead, escapades, tones and all that.

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 01:40 AM

Dear PublishAmerica Author Support,

Accomplishing nothing was exactly what I did when I signed a publishing contract with you people. I simply expected that y'all would pay correct and honest royalty amounts for my books based on sales, and it's obvious that's not been the case here at all. The deceit and duplicity taking place is resonating through me, and I seriously wonder what is going on with y'all and your escapade. You will not be receiving any consideration from me until I receive a corrected traditional type royalty statement. I'll bet that Mr. Travis Tea is not having any problems at all regarding his royalty checks.

I'm giving PublishAmerica a couple of weeks to produce an accurate royalty statement, if that doesn't happen, well, I will explore further avenues of redress for this situation.

T42

03-04-2005, 01:42 AM

Ummmmmmm, I'm confused. I thought the books had to be prepaid, meaning that if one wants a copy, one pays immediately for it. Does amazon.com work that way? If you buy a copy off of amazon.com, you pay for it right away. Does amazon.com then send PA the payment, who then prints it and sends it?

If that's the case, the infocenter is full of s**t like everything else they shovel out.

But, I guess I'm preaching to the choir.

underthecity
Underthecity,
I got a royalty check from PA ($1.36) for a book my friend bought at amazon in Jan. I was told from PA that my books wouldn't go into the stores until March. I think they were stating that so that I wouldn't get my check until August but they decided to send it to me because I am such a trouble maker for them. Who knows with them. I'm sure that they can't even keep up with the lies they tell.

NicoleJLeBoeuf

03-04-2005, 01:43 AM

That's very cool. Good 'ol Locus magazine. It seems you can't read it online, but I will attempt to grab a copy next time I'm at the 'ol BN.Y'all beat me to it--I just got my copy today and saw the article. In Locus it's mostly preaching to the choir, I'd think, but every little bit of publicity given this issue must help!

Kate StAmour

03-04-2005, 01:46 AM

Bonnie,
Looks like it's time you ordered your t-shirt.

Uncarved

03-04-2005, 01:59 AM

Bonnie,
I have been banned three times at the PA boards. And now they are not returning my mailings so consider yourself part of the group now!
My royalty check was the same whopping $1.36. MMMMMMmmm now where's that happy meal for us happy happy PA authors:)

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 02:00 AM

My check came today...$9.14
6 bought with the 18% discount
3 bought with a 40% discount, and I say with the others questioning this on the PA boards, who gets 40%
Well, sold a whopping 9 books, without marketing at all, might have been able to sell 10 if I'd tried.

NicoleJLeBoeuf

03-04-2005, 02:00 AM

Exactly. And the corollary to this is, these people are not just the longest to figure it out (as others have so aptly stated); these people are the longest in denial once they do start to figure it out. If only stupid people get scammed, then admitting to being scammed is tantamount to admitting to being stupid.I agree with you up to a point. However, I'd say that most of the cohort of PA'ers who post on their boards aren't exactly splitting atoms. The brainpower there is underwhelming.You may be right. I'm in no position to comment on the collective brainpower of the PA forum members. But then I wasn't specifically talking about PA authors (though I'm sure that some of them do fit the description)--just commenting on the sad pattern that can often be found when people who think they're too smart to get scammed, get scammed.

That said, I should note that the key here is "those who think they're too smart to get scammed." Even a Bear of Very Little Brain can fall into the cycle of humiliation and denial if they have the mindset of "only stupid people get scammed," and then they get scammed. It's more a matter of self image than of actual brain-power.

Kevin Yarbrough

03-04-2005, 02:09 AM

Snarzler said: "Second, I think Kevin should put the SW/PA posts into a book. I have a policeman buddy who would just love to own it.

Snarzler, I think the cop who paid me a visit might like a copy as well. Maybe next time I will autograph it for him.

Patricia

03-04-2005, 02:17 AM

Uncarved

03-04-2005, 02:21 AM

Can you imagine what would happen to PA if Joyce, Lynn and HB turned on them? They'd be out of commission in a week!

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 02:21 AM

I think it's possible that PA took their message to Bonnie down so very quick because of her standing with the other authors. She really did a great thing today!

KellyS.

03-04-2005, 02:21 AM

You know it's a wonder that BN stores don't have a nice little sign by the register saying that while they will NOT stock PA books, they will special order them for you. Would save them some repeating. lol

Sher2

03-04-2005, 02:25 AM

Steve Fosset's solo flight (a dream accomplished) and Bonnie Gibson exposes PA on their board. (a feat up until now was near impossible) However, because she has a trust factor with the authors, I think much was accomplished.
Now, if only we could announce the dissolution in disgrace of PA, we could all go to bed happy people tonight. ;)

Christine N.

03-04-2005, 02:27 AM

That 30, 60, 90 day thing... I think applies when someone orders a book from B&N or Amazon, or (god wonders if it ever happens) walks into a bookstore an orders one.

Yes, the customer has to pay up front, but the retailer may have that time frame to pay. Or Ingrams may have that time to pay PA. The money goes from customer to retailer to distributor to PA, to...PA, to..PA....
Oh, and a tiny part to the author.

I think that's where the "you might have money in the pipeline" comes from.

P.S. You go Bonnie !! take a :thankyou:

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 02:40 AM

...based on the following:

1. For the past 4-5 weeks, the number of new PA releases each week has totaled around 70-90 books, far less than the 250-300 per week of just a few months ago.

2. They have taken a public relations drubbing. The AP article, the Washington Post article, and then our good pal Travis Tea comes along. I think that the synergy of the AP article, the WP article, and "Atlanta Nights" has really put a hurtin' on PA. Just do a Google search on PublishAmerica and all you will see is page after page of negative articles. It wasn't that way at all just a few months ago.

3. I think Bonnie has hurt PA pretty badly - she was one of the most respected authors over there, and the fall-out from her situation is not going away anytime soon, in fact, I think we are seeing only the beginning of the potential negatives coming towards PA from that.

4. Another interesting dynamic taking place - more and more people are willing to take on PA now. Authors unhappy with PA now realize that many others feel the same way they do, and are now more willing than ever to challenge them. Look at the different writer's boards and read the current comments about PA, most are very anti. And don't discount this thread, we currently have 58,748 views as we speak. Folks, I've even gotten several emails recently from people who say that this is the best soap opera going today, a true life literary scandal unfolding with each additional post that's added.

Bottom line, if I were Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem I would be fastly packing my grip and looking for a good long term vacation hideaway...

Patricia

03-04-2005, 02:41 AM

Subject: Gone gone gone my post

Message:
You weasel!

People will find out who you really are.

Bonnie

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 02:50 AM

Bonnie, are your ears ringing? You just gotta know that three people are talking about you tonight! LOL, this is great, and that other post, they are wondering if they should dare take it down, what a cover up! To late though, haha

Sher2

03-04-2005, 02:52 AM

Bottom line, if I were Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem I would be fastly packing my grip and looking for a good long term vacation hideaway...
I somehow don't think this is a problem for them. I'll betcha they keep a git-away-quick bag packed and their passports updated. Of course, God only knows which one of them has custody of the bank book.

My royalty check came today. I'm proud to say I can now afford to buy several Big Macs -- and fatten myself up a mite if I was of a mind to. Hope I can resist the urge.:Smack: Still, the amount is laughable. Let's just say it's less than what I'd pay for a decent hardcover book. What I'm more proud of is that I lifted not one finger to promote that sucker. :wag:

KellyS.

03-04-2005, 02:55 AM

I tried to post again just to see if I could. I can't still, but would love to post in that weasel post! Go, Bonnie!!

Need to ask a question again. On my statement it shows a discount of 55% for one copy and UK is shown after that. Does that mean a UK site sold a book and if so, why the huge discount? Any clues? I wish it hadn't sold any, but if they think selling 3 books in six months is lucrative, then I guess I will have to hope for no sales at all the next time.

Hey Sher2, I will gladly pay you Tuesday if you buy me a hamburger today.

Hey, should that be my motto as a PA author?

NancyMehl

03-04-2005, 02:58 AM

Well, still no check for the books I ordered from Amazon in April. Do you think PA is ignoring me???? :cry:

Bonnie,

You're a nice lady. I'm really sorry you're going through this. I still remember the sick feeling I got when I realized I'd been taken in by PA. It will take a while to get on the other side of that. Our work is important to us. We poured our heart and soul into it.

Right now it isn't funny. But...ya now what? PA can't touch your talent. They can't take your dreams unless you choose to give them away. I have two books coming out this year from reputable publishers - my agent has another one - and I am working on a brand new one. PA is just a bad memory. It will be that way for you, too.

Hang in there. :Hug2:

Nancy

triceretops

03-04-2005, 03:04 AM

Worst Case Scenario:

Author contacts fee agent and pays fee to be placed at PA

Signs Contract with PA, gets $1.00

Author launches campaign:
Buys flyers
Mass book purchase (100-300 copies)
Book signings (travel expenses, gas)
Business cards
Book marks
Trade and newspaper ads
Publicity agency (big bucks)
Review copies
Give-away-copies
(Very similar to what Crab Cakes and Pepper man did--thousands of dollars)

Hires Lawyer to break contract (more bucks)

Hires Literary lawyer to finish what lawyer #1 was unqualified to do (bucks)

Finally breaks contract

Pain and suffering:

Meds

Liquor

Credit Card interest

End result:

Quits writing (FOREVER)

Reason: (The publishing industry is too harsh--it was a mistake to even enter it. Besides, too much competition).

I wish I could say that this was a scenario but it was not. Most of this happened to a youngish female who had her parents come to the financial rescue. The family is so embarassed that the whole matter has been snuffed and they choose to remain "unknown quantities."

Please do not ask for this person's identity under any circumstances for that is my Sworn promise to them. It just goes to show how devastating a snowball PA can create, once a down hill ride is unstopable. I'm willing to bet that this has happened to others of the 11,000.

Does anyone dare care to fill in the $ amounts that cost this person to HOPE for print? Are there any lurkers, trolls or PA authors who can possibly defend a company that indirectly or directly causes such an abismal tragedy?

I think not.

Tri...did everything I could to help her...ceratops.

pike bishop

03-04-2005, 03:15 AM

where or where is HB he has gone away does not post much any more he slipped away when travis tea was taking on publishamerica thru amazon you think he was catching heat from publishamerica and could not travis tea you think why old capt of the uss publishamerica is gone to has anything with the chaos old tyravis carsed publishamerica travis tea is gone yes but others wait for the right time to ride aginst publishamerica our travis tea had nothen to do with the book atlanta nights except make it a best seller check out crispy on amazon wonder who that is uh

Galoot

03-04-2005, 03:17 AM

Bonnie, did you post the weasel message (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11750.htm) or is some shMOE impersonating you, trying to discredit your earlier message?Bonnie Gibson

3/03/2005
16:37:20
Subject: Gone gone gone my post

Message:
You weasel!

People will find out who you really are.

Bonnie

Jonathon Michaels

03-04-2005, 03:31 AM

I couldn't get in to read anyone answering me. They caught it and banned me from there too.

Hey Bonnie,

FINE SHOW! :Clap:

Both threads are still up. If you're interested in the above, drop me an email at webmaster at tavonreiman.net

Jonathon

Patricia

03-04-2005, 03:32 AM

Bonnie, did you post the weasel message (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11750.htm) or is some shMOE impersonating you, trying to discredit your earlier message?
Yes, I believe Bonnie did do that one too. PA has somehow missed it.

Sassenach

03-04-2005, 03:33 AM

End result:

Quits writing (FOREVER)

Reason: (The publishing industry is too harsh--it was a mistake to even enter it. Besides, too much competition).

I wish I could say that this was a scenario but it was not. Most of this happened to a youngish female who had her parents come to the financial rescue. The family is so embarassed that the whole matter has been snuffed and they choose to remain "unknown quantities."

Does anyone dare care to fill in the $ amounts that cost this person to HOPE for print? Are there any lurkers, trolls or PA authors who can possibly defend a company that indirectly or directly causes such an abismal tragedy?

See...this is Darwinian, and if one failure [albeit messy] is going to her stop writing, then so be it. A lot of writers have prevailed over much worse rejection. E.g., A Wrinkle in Time and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance were rejected 100+ times. Ironweed was rejected 40 times.

If the publishing world is too cruel for this young woman, so be it. I agree that PA's a scam and has taken terrible advantage of people and their dreams.

I'm hopeful there are many talented PA'ers who'll recover and get even instead of mad.

Uncarved

03-04-2005, 03:35 AM

Bonnie is my new personal hero.
She was such a strong force in the PA 'family' and I believe everyone here knows what a powerful weapon she is in our arsenal.
I applaud you stepping out and calling them on their BS.

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 03:38 AM

LOL...funny Bonnie
On another note, I'm listening to HB right now on that radio show, and he sounds right at home, sounds nothing like some of you described him last time, he is pretty funny also.

Jonathon Michaels

03-04-2005, 03:38 AM

I did it. I did the weasel post. I confess.

This is my favorite response:

Bonnie may not respond. There seems to have been a slight disagreement between her and her publisher.

:guns:

Ya think?

Uncarved

03-04-2005, 03:40 AM

someone needs to post that "Bonnie can't respond as she is banned now like everyone that dares ask a legit question or dares not to drink the koolaid at the camp"

Patricia

03-04-2005, 03:45 AM

someone needs to post that "Bonnie can't respond as she is banned now like everyone that dares ask a legit question or dares not to drink the koolaid at the camp"
Tina,

I would love to do that -- except I want to be able to post in the future when it will count against PA. Bonnie is doing OK with that one and I think that poster got her point across with the way she said "her publisher." I think most in the know, probably got the drift of it.

Uncarved

03-04-2005, 03:46 AM

Yes I agree.
Just would be terminally great to see that in a post. Soooo many authors there think that the authors just get pissed off and leave or stop posting. They don't realise they are Banned until they themselves get banned.

edited to gloat: I've given away 30 copies of my PA cookbook today alone (in pdf form so that no one makes a dime off it). One just gushed at its greatness (natch) and wanted to pay for it. I was about to break my wrist typing back for her not to do that, lol...told her to give it to whoever she pleases. I don't care if I ever see another cent off it, but I damn sure don't want PA making anymore off it either. Does me good to know that people enjoy it though, thats my royalty;)

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 03:49 AM

Artistfirst Radio / Author-First Radio Program
http://www.artistfirst.com/

A PAer friend of mine just asked me about these guys because he'd approached them for an interview, and they demanded a "donation" before they'd set anything up. I'm not sure how much. I've tried searching their site, but it's pretty scant about how to get in contact with the author first dj, unless it's the same person for all the programs.Then it looks like he's on "vanity radio," where you have to pay to be on the air. It's amazing, don't people (HB in particular) realize that when you pay for an agent, and you pay for a publisher, and you pay to be on a radio program like this that something is badly wrong?

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 03:54 AM

They are asking HB about PA, and the Attorney General, 20/20...hmmm
HB is saying there are two authors, named, ...wow, hope you are all listening to this, he's talking about this site, but not naming it, started to name names.
Talking about Kevin's book. Saying publishers only read the first thirty pages.
Would you like to tell everybody that publishamerica is an up and up company...and HB is saying did you read the contract, making fun of people who are against PA, also saying that these people are paid to be anti PA.
Talking about the message board (PA one). Oh, the DJ is talking great about the PA web site, celebs and stuff. What a set up...however, HB is doing a good job I gotta give the man that.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, another add to THE post:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11750.htm
Message:
You know, Bonnie has been a good friend to PA and their authors by shelving books in her store. She did that as a service to her PA family and I don't blame her for being frustrated!

I may be banned for saying this, but frankly the royalty statements and explanations are so nebulous. Bonnie was a NYT PA bestseller and I can imaginge that she's reeling since advertisements in a national paper like that haven't garnered more sales.

I see this "family" becoming more and more dysfunctional and I think if we want the industry to take us all (including PA) seriously, we'd better figure out a way to resolve issues on these boards!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bonnie, you may be gone, but never forgotten! Thanks for giving so many of our books a fair chance in your store!

AnneMarble

03-04-2005, 04:02 AM

Yes, I believe Bonnie did do that one too. PA has somehow missed it.

Looks like lbs might be leading the next wave of rebellion after posting something supportive of Bonnie...

I guess it's dinnertime in Frederick.

Gratian Gasparri

03-04-2005, 04:18 AM

problem is, I think 200AuthorBoy really believes his own methods will work when others have gone down that road and failed.

What's really sad about the affair is that 200AuthorGuy is truly persistent and innovative when it comes to marketting. Nevertheless, his efforts will most likely come to naught because of who his publisher happens to be. Many small and niche presses like having someone like 200AuthorGuy among their authors. And they would back him up with returnable books that are much more reasonably priced, as well as other little publicity extras.

akaa1a

03-04-2005, 04:22 AM

I'm hearing the private message board is hoppin' too!

Not just from "Bonniegate"..but a few other dissentions are brewing! The thought of selling books from car trunks is losing it's lustre! Too bad we can't stop in and throw a life preserver to them!

If you can see this Private PA Boarders
:Cheer:
you are cleared to land! Welcome!

astonwest

03-04-2005, 04:24 AM

edited to gloat: I've given away 30 copies of my PA cookbook today alone (in pdf form so that no one makes a dime off it). One just gushed at its greatness (natch) and wanted to pay for it. I was about to break my wrist typing back for her not to do that, lol...told her to give it to whoever she pleases. I don't care if I ever see another cent off it, but I damn sure don't want PA making anymore off it either. Does me good to know that people enjoy it though, thats my royalty;)

Right there with you...I've given away four hard copies of my book this week...not sure how many PDF versions I've sent out...

victoriastrauss

03-04-2005, 04:25 AM

HB is saying there are two authors, named, ...wow, hope you are all listening to this, he's talking about this site, but not naming it, started to name names.Whose names, Chris? Did he actually name Kevin?

- Victoria

realitychuck

03-04-2005, 04:25 AM

First of all, Bravissimo, Bonnie!

This article has an analysis of Amazon sales rankings that might interest PA authors: http://www.fonerbooks.com/surfing.htm

Briefly, they did an analysis of the rankings. They have determined:

1. A ranking of 1,000,000 translates into a sale every other month.
2. A ranking of 2,000,000 translates into about two sales total.
2. A single sale for a book ranked >2,000,000 can improve the ranking by 500,000.

Picking a PA book at random ;), the Joe Shmoe Show indicates a current ranking of 1,722,486. That's probably about 3 books sold via Amazon.

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 04:26 AM

...any PA authors who have had enough are more than welcome to come here and join us, you will be among friends. Life is too short to take the abuse regularly meted out by your publisher, and coming over here is step one towards getting your publishing career back on the right track. Lots of good advice and information await you here from successful authors, agents, and publishers - we'd love to have you!

(PA authors, by the way, if you need another reason to join us, here's something posted in response to Bonnie by one of your own, it pretty well speaks for itself):

Ha Ha.

I thought that we were responsible for our own promotion and sales? Why would we be mad at P.A. for not getting some enormous royalty check?

I think people need a reality check instead.

You aren't world famous folks. When you are your royality check will reflect it.
If your check was small, think how P.A. feels. They put up the bucks to publish your book. Do you think they got their money back? I Don't.

Scream all you want, cry, scratch your computer screen for all I care. Your published and that's all. You're not famous. You have to make it so.
Good luck with that part.

Sher2

03-04-2005, 04:29 AM

I did it. I did the weasel post. I confess.
"Judge, I did it, I just couldn't take it anymore."
"That's okay hun, them jerks needed it. Thumbs up to you."
At the conclusion of the trial on the fraud, harassment, drama, and scary tone charges PA filed against Bonnie:
PA's Attorney: "Your Honor, we ask that you find the defendant, Miz Bonnie, guilty as charged and sentence her accordingly."
The Judge: "Sir, one question -- whose idea was it to send the bogus cop with no ID to Miz Bonnie's house in the middle of the night and scare her half to death?"
PA's Attorney: "I -- ah, you know -- er -- hmmmm, I..."
The Prosecutor: "Your Honor, I move that the plaintiffs and their lawyer be taken into custody and locked up forthwith."
The Judge: "So ordered. And it will be the further ruling of this court that the plaintiffs and their counsel will pay to Miz Bonnie immediately all royalties due her, an amount to be determined for her pain and suffering with regard to contracting with PA, an additional amount to compensate her for her heart palpitations the night of the patently illegal visitation, and compensatory damages for breach of contract on the plaintiffs' part and termination of said nonsensical contract effective as of right now. Bailiff, haul these stooges on over to the jail. Court is adjourned." :banana:

Medievalist

03-04-2005, 04:29 AM

One thing I've often wondered about is why PA doesn't tell authors how many of their books are printed.

When you have an account at LS you get a logon and you can see exactly what you ordered, when, what stage in the process it's at, etc. It's really useful. You can also go back in time.

PublishAmerica is the customer, so authors can't get "their" data; you'd probably have to chat up an attorney and judge to do that.

But PA certainly knows how many were printed.

Oh, and shipping data is listed too--because LS will ship wherever you want.

The only conclusion I can draw is, like con artists everywhere, it's in PublishAmerica's interest to withhold the data. The ninety days before royaly accoutning is equally bizarre; PublishAmerica wants cash up front, even for single copy orders.

Gratian Gasparri

03-04-2005, 04:44 AM

...and HB is saying did you read the contract, making fun of people who are against PA, also saying that these people are paid to be anti PA. Talking about the message board (PA one). Oh, the DJ is talking great about the PA web site, celebs and stuff. What a set up...however, HB is doing a good job I gotta give the man that.

If this keeps up, I give HB about another three months before he crosses over. First, the more HB has to defend PA to the outside world, the more research he has to do about PA, literary scams and the publishing industry.

Secondly, there's a greater possibility of HB being left to dry on something, or of HB catching PA in a lie.

Thirdly, when that something clicks, the next thing that will go through HB's brain is: "I'm their biggest booster."

So my prediction? Three or four months from now, we will be saying: "Take it easy on the new guy, HB. Remember at one time you were PA's biggest booster, so be gentle with those who are still struggling to come out."

Jonathon Michaels

03-04-2005, 04:50 AM

Mr. kas,
When we signed with PA, we were under the assumption that major bookstores would sell our books, only to find that they want no part of a PA book since it is POD and way overpriced. I don't care how good the book is, people do not want to spend $20 on a book that is sitting next to another for only $10 or less...and the same size. How do you compete with that? I wouldn't buy a PA book off the shelf for $20, not even $15. I don't have that kind of money to support my reading habits. That's the reality check. Bookstores don't want us! There's not enough family members and friends that feel obligated enough to buy them. So, what do we do? Stand on a street corner and sell them? If these books were available, and priced the fair price, at least we would have a chance at more sales. No one is talking about being famous from our books. We just want a chance to sell them with our publisher's support. And, that my friend, is where our deficit is!

Pull up another chair, and don't forget the coffee. :Coffee:

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 04:56 AM

...y'all might want to take another look:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8032.htm

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-095.gif

P.S. I've gotten, in the past fifteen minutes, two emails from PA authors who are madder than hell about the royalty situation, both are saying they know they sold more books than they are being credited with. Imagine that, Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem cheating someone?

Christine N.

03-04-2005, 04:57 AM

I agree, I think lbs and that other poster will be joining us soon. lbs has had quite a few negative (by that I mean, legitmate questions) things to say lately.

And Mr. Kas - was that a Freudian slip? "royal-ity check"?

Jonathon Michaels

03-04-2005, 05:13 AM

There's nothing to fear from people expressing fear and frustration...unless the person they are talking to is just as afraid as they are.

This is one of the most insightful statements ever to be soon deleted from the PA boards...

Literary Lola

03-04-2005, 05:15 AM

Unlike everyone else who wants to sell books, I'm frankly quite bummed that two copies of my PA book sold.

I DON'T WANT ANYONE BUYING MY BOOK! :Smack:

Don't get me wrong; it's a good book. But like any work, it needed the benefits of one of those li'l ol' editors that PA eluded to employing. Heck, how was I to know that their "editors" consist of their overworked janitor who waves his toilet brush over a manuscript and proclaims it holy and complete. As a result, my book is a generous serving of cowpie placed upon a gen-u-ine Scamming-Ware plate.

Thank you PA.

Oh...and DON'T BUY MY BOOK! http://deephousepage.com/smilies/pullhair.gif

Sarashay

03-04-2005, 05:16 AM

How exactly is PA "taking a chance" on them? They don't print books unless they've been paid for, they don't lift a finger to help authors get in bookstores, hell, they don't even pay for the copyright! Somebody explain to me exactly what "chances" PA is taking?

'shay

Patricia

03-04-2005, 05:17 AM

:eek: First I'll address "Mr. Kas." He is the loyal PA Booster who brags on the boards about how much he paid a professional editor to edit his book before he submitted, or re-submitted, I forget which. He has some connection with an editor due to his employment and got a decent review about his book, and because of that I think he believes himself to be credible to knock any complaints against PA.

To those of you still able to get into the private boards: PA has chosen to leave Bonnie's post because the boooooosters are like mad dogs. So far, I've only seen one author support her. There are two threads going and I had to leave before reading all of them, I was getting like a feeling of rage. Not healthy!

Literary Lola

03-04-2005, 05:18 AM

My husband who was a publisher for many years and
now writes for the music publisher who bought his
business, read the contract and said it was as good as
any he had ever signed. Since he succeeded in his
business, I trust him.
If this were moi, I'd be a widow doing hard time.

reph

03-04-2005, 05:20 AM

From the royalties thread, posters' names omitted:

Message:
I too am very disappointed in my total sales. I've checked on all the on line sights, some claim to be out of stock, new ones on the way, and some claim to have used copies, considering those facts, I should have sold more than my statement reflected. It's makes me wonder if someone is lying to us.

Message:
I was disappointed with my statement because I know I worked very hard promoting, talking, sharing flyers in and out of my state. I know I worked my butt off since last october, my hubby sold and promoted my books even before that. To say he was shocked is an understatement. I know two bookstores ordered and stocked my book so these may be reflected in another statement.
I can't believe that all the work I did and I only sold two books! Any comments?
I had just started a wonderful novel and was on a roll...I now have writers block.

Would either (or any) of the lawyers following this thread comment on the possibility that I just now violated the posters' copyrights by pasting their material here?

Literary Lola

03-04-2005, 05:23 AM

This month, we are growing our editing staff with six more seasoned editors. Hence the opening of our fourth office, a moment of celebration we thought we ought to share with you.
Ahhahahahaha! :ROFL: By "seasoned," I'm going out on a limb here and assuming they mean these poor souls have actually graduated from sixth grade and have the I.Q. of a jar of peanut butter.

Jonathon Michaels

03-04-2005, 05:28 AM

This is one of the most insightful statements ever to be soon deleted from the PA boards...

Almost fifteen minutes. Longer than I had expected...

Galoot

03-04-2005, 05:31 AM

... these poor souls have actually graduated from sixth grade and have the I.Q. of a jar of peanut butter.I can see it now.

"You continually misspell 'Jif' in your Photoshop Tips manuscript. We've fixed that for you."

Galoot

03-04-2005, 05:32 AM

The "weasel message" is gone. Anybody time it?

tjwriter

03-04-2005, 05:37 AM

I was looking at it a few minutes ago, so it just disappeared. Congrats to Bonnie.

Forgive me for my word choices or lack thereof. I am going on 3 hrs. sleep since yesterday morning.

writerjenn

03-04-2005, 05:40 AM

Dear Ms. Gibson,

We will expect your prompt apology.

Thank You,

PublishAmerica Author Support

---------------------------------------------------------------

Doesn't that just get your hackles up? Geezus, you'd think they were talking to a third grader. "Bonnie dear, you can go back to class if you apologize immediately."

"Hmph. Apologize THIS!":wag:

Jenn

Literary Lola

03-04-2005, 05:46 AM

Dammit, Bonnie, I wish you'd quit beating around the bush and tell PA what you really think of them.

Dolan

03-04-2005, 05:59 AM

Shadowfax said to you: Tsk, Tsk. Bonnie to be so aggressive and angry..... And so on.

GJMORT has many nice things to say about you and wants you to contact him.

Hottoddy says that you bought your way on the NYTs ad. Your low sales are the same as an admission. Further, she says to get over the grandiose thoughts of authordom.

In answer to GTMORTS question to PA as to why you owe them an apology, Shadowfax says that you took a tone with them and they have feelings.

This is from your thread on the private PA board in case you can no longer access it.

Bonnie if you like getting your messages, may I have a rep point?

P. S. To steal from Tina, you are my hero.

Patricia

03-04-2005, 06:09 AM

Hottoddy is Kas. Dolan, is the other thread about Bonnie still on the private board?

Uncarved

03-04-2005, 06:14 AM

Whose names, Chris? Did he actually name Kevin?

- Victoria

No one has answered Victoria's question.
I'd like to know too

tina

writerjenn

03-04-2005, 06:19 AM

(shakes head) doesn't take 'em long to start turning on each other, does it? I guess they don't feel guilty if it's what they have to do to stay in PA's good graces.

For me though, my morals and ethics wouldn't allow me to play that game. And I could NEVER have slept at night if I'd done what that crowd continues to do to authors who don't tote the party line.

Jenn

Jonathon Michaels

03-04-2005, 06:20 AM

No one has answered Victoria's question.
I'd like to know too

tina

I listened to much of the interview but missed some of the middle. Basically he kept speaking of naming two names but then he never did that I heard, and they changed the subject to, well, other things. (Nothing worth mentioning save a few "jokes")

I heard a bit of it after the subject change and it wasn't referred to again. Then later PA came up again and I still heard no names.

It's entirely possible I missed them, but from the way the conversation seemed they didn't speak of PA issues in the few minutes I was gone.

Oops. To directly address the issue of Kevin, he described the situation (from their perspective, of course) in detail but I never heard the name mentioned.

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 06:33 AM

underthecity

03-04-2005, 06:50 AM

I find it amazing that the authors on the PA boards are openly discussing the amounts of their checks. If a real publisher had published all their books, they could have been making thousands instead of. . . three or four dollars. You can bet that they would not be discussing how much their checks were, they would be discussing serious writing issues, like those in our Learn Writing with Uncle Jim thread. I know I don't have discussions with other Arcadia authors about how big our checks are.

And on top of that, although some are disappointed at receiving royalty checks with amounts for less than two dollars, most of them seem to actually be accepting it. Now, if you and all of your fellow authors report simultaneously that all of your royalty checks are under ten dollars, something is seriously wrong! There is a huge problem if the random sampling of the 100 different authors who post on the PA boards and over here out of the over 10,000 are all reporting amazingly low copies sold and low royalties. PA has promised international availability of their books, and availability at all bricks and mortar book stores nationwide. Why have they not delivered?

Instead of thousands of copies sold in six months, it's only maybe 8. Or even fewer. That's amazing. I think most authors, PA included of course, would be insulted if their books sold so poorly. I know I would be. I would think, I thought the publisher was behind my book; they said they would be.

With all this cold logic staring the PA authors in the faces, the truth right in front of their eyes, why do some of them not "see the light?" Certainly some of them are asking questions amongst each other. And Bonnie's outburst today certainly shook the earth a little. Other ones who already know the truth can only post over here and watch from the sidelines.

But to get a royalty check for less than $5? Especially when many of the authors have done extensive marketing? No way.

I've been reading their posts on the Royalties thread, and I could really feel that these are people, writers, just like us. They all want the same thing: to be published, and maybe make some money at it too. The believed in a publisher who does not believe in them.

It's really sad to witness this debacle happening to other people who dream the same dreams we do about our books.

But when they do "see the light," they'll find AW.

And we'll be waitin'.

underthecity

realitychuck

03-04-2005, 07:00 AM

...is going with a different publisher for books two and three...

http://www.expressseek.com/addpr/show_details.php?id=1287

I wonder just what in the devil is he thinking!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/teufel/devil-smiley-037.gifLooks like a press release. If his novel is written this badly, no wonder he ended up at PA.

BTW, judging by Preditors and Editors, American Book Publishing -- where the author is going -- almost makes PA look good.

Gratian Gasparri

03-04-2005, 07:01 AM

Dolan, thanks for sharing the quotes about Bonnie from the private PA board. With regards to the following...

Hottoddy says that you bought your way on the NYTs ad. Your low sales are the same as an admission. Further, she says to get over the grandiose thoughts of authordom.

For the sake of the argument, let us pretend that Hottoddy is right and that Bonnie is not the kind and professional bookstore owner we know her to be. Small independently owned bookstores don't make much money. They also don't sell too many books when one looks at the overall picture of what is sold each day in the English-speaking world.

So......what does it say about PA that with 11,000 alleged happy authors, Bonnie could buy her way into the top 10?

DeadlyAccurate

03-04-2005, 07:02 AM

apologies for the lowercase; i broke my wrist this afternoon.

i spoke (emailed, rather) with a couple of pa authors this afternoon. i know that one is simply going to forget about pa and move on. she already has a publisher interested in her next book, so fortunately she hasn't given up. her books sounded interesting, so i'm sure she'll be published someday. the other author was lbs. i pointed her to this site after she asked what aw stood for on bonnie's 1st deleted thread. maybe she's lurking. (if so, hi, lbs!)

CaoPaux

03-04-2005, 07:12 AM

From Mr. Nussbeck's press release: The book is written in Mental Visual Imageing style, in scenes rather than dialog. This new style of reading draws the reader into a new realm of reading. :gone:

And yes, American Book is as bad as PA. Worse, since they threaten the author with a $10,000 penalty for anything negative said about ABP. (It's unenforceable, but people who sign such a contract aren't going to know that....)

KellyS.

03-04-2005, 07:14 AM

Bonnie-I had posted something here for you to see, but have changed my mind and pm'd you instead.

Kelly

Renee

03-04-2005, 07:14 AM

I know lbs and hope she comes over here! In fact until recently I thought she was already here, but from all the posts - I guess not.

Come over here, S!

Also if it's not a problem asking here: Does anyone know where Toyce is? She's a extremely talented writer and I was just curious to if she's here or how she is.

Literary Lola

03-04-2005, 07:23 AM

Literary Lola

03-04-2005, 07:29 AM

...the other author was lbs. i pointed her to this site after she asked what aw stood for on bonnie's 1st deleted thread. maybe she's lurking. (if so, hi, lbs!)
Well, dang, howdy, LBS. Nothing like a no-food banquet to make you change boards, eh? Ssssay, is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see us?

realitychuck

03-04-2005, 07:29 AM

Gratian Gasparri

03-04-2005, 07:34 AM

But to get a royalty check for less than $5? Especially when many of the authors have done extensive marketing? No way.

I've been reading their posts on the Royalties thread, and I could really feel that these are people, writers, just like us. They all want the same thing: to be published, and maybe make some money at it too. The believed in a publisher who does not believe in them.

It's really sad to witness this debacle happening to other people who dream the same dreams we do about our books.

I know how you feel. That's how I found this board; I was trying to help some fellow authors who had been taken in by PA.

Nevertheless, even I find the cheque amounts PA authors are receiving to be disappointing. Heck, it is even less than the token $10 I await for a 5,000 word piece I'm co-authoring for a professional (not quite academic, but definitely not popular) publication. (For which I only receive two contributor copies and a 10% discount on subsequent copies; but as others have pointed out, these types of publication are mainly for prestige among one's professional peers.)

To my friends and fellow authors who are still with PA, I can see you saying to yourselves: "Well, my royalty cheque isn't that of Stephen King or JK Rowling." But should your book, of which you are the sole author and which you intended for a popular market, be bringing in less that the token amount I receive for a co-authored chapter of a book intended for a small group of professionals and dealing with a very dry subject matter?

You deserve better.

mdin

03-04-2005, 07:40 AM

If it only took me 40 hours to write a novel, I'd have written at least 150 of them by now. :Thumbs:

From what I understand there's a mini-revolt underway on the private message board. It's just like six months ago, but this time people are coming into it already tired from all the negative press. The whole 90 day delay thing was used extensively by PA last time. I'm interested to see if any of those people from six months ago will pipe up.

writerjenn

03-04-2005, 07:59 AM

KellyS.

03-04-2005, 07:59 AM

Renee

03-04-2005, 08:21 AM

Hey Kelly,

I posted some serious stuff on the private PA board, it stayed for like two weeks before PA even figured out what I'd said. Boom - banned. Of course it wasn't easy to get banned I have to say..LOL..

PS- There were alot of people on the private board that I respected and I know they are reading this - get your tails over here cause I'm like getting tired of waiting..lol..Mr. Platts, sorry please stay where you are are. Ok, so I'm mean (yeah right)when it really comes down to it, but I'm honest.

"I pm'd ya, Renee!"

Jenn

Thanks, Jenn!! :thankyou: I pm'd ya back.

lindylou45

03-04-2005, 08:21 AM

Steve Fosset's solo flight (a dream accomplished) .

Who knows, maybe Mr. Fosset will write a book about his adventures and submit the ms to PA. That would give the Big 3 cause to send out another celebratory email allowing their authors to buy their own books in which sales will count toward royalties -- as long as the credit card company cooperates of course.

:Jump:

Kevin Yarbrough

03-04-2005, 08:32 AM

Well, dang, howdy, LBS. Nothing like a no-food banquet to make you change boards, eh? Ssssay, is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see us?
Lola, maybe that wasn't a gun in his pocket. Maybe he was hiding all of the food from us?

Galoot

03-04-2005, 08:33 AM

SOoTy

3/03/2005
18:27:57

RE: 200 Authors

Message:
A $30.00 catalogue of authors that other Publishers put out for free. Good luck!There's more (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11730.htm), but that about sums it up. SOoTy is >this< close...

Renee

03-04-2005, 08:36 AM

That's what I like about Sooty - she tells it like it is! Go Sooty, girl! :banana:

reph

03-04-2005, 08:55 AM

This evening, the following Google search:

"travis tea" "atlanta nights"

gets 742 hits, a record.

Chacounne

03-04-2005, 08:55 AM

Hi All,

Looks like SSabastian66

on the public PA board could use a pointer towards our direction. Anyone able to contact him?

Chacounne

aka eraser

03-04-2005, 08:57 AM

Sarashay said:

How exactly is PA "taking a chance" on them? They don't print books unless they've been paid for, they don't lift a finger to help authors get in bookstores, hell, they don't even pay for the copyright! Somebody explain to me exactly what "chances" PA is taking?

That's the oft-repeated mantra that has stuck in my craw since the first time I read of PA.

For the lurking PA authors, here's how a real publisher "takes a chance" on a no name writer from nowhere for his first book.

They give me $5,000.00 as an advance - not $1:00
They give me 15 free copies - not 2.
They pay for copyright registration - not me.
They send out dozens of review copies - without me begging.
They list the book on every online site AND ensure, via its catalogue and salesforce and distribution channels, that it's in hundreds of brick and mortar stores in North America.

Here's what I did to promote the book:

Bookstore signings - 0
Radio/television/newspaper interviews - 0
Flyers/Pamphlets/Bookmarks printed and distributed to promote book - 0
Bookstores begged to stock my book - 0

Result: Quietly, my book is going to a 2nd printing and I've earned out my advance.

I'm not Jim Macdonald or Victoria Strauss - a multi-published author with a consistent track record. I'm Joe Blow from Idunno who has talent and worked hard and studied the business of writing. My success is tiny compared to many but I suspect every single one of PA's "happy" 11,000 authors would take my numbers over theirs.

My publisher, and any mainstream publisher, really takes a chance by investing many thousands of dollars in each writer and each book.

PA risks a buck.

You have to decide if that's what you and your book are worth.

AnneMarble

03-04-2005, 09:01 AM

And yes, American Book is as bad as PA. Worse, since they threaten the author with a $10,000 penalty for anything negative said about ABP. (It's unenforceable, but people who sign such a contract aren't going to know that....)

From what I've seen in the discussion about American Book on the Rumor Mill, American Books sucks, and C. Lee Nun is a real piece of work. I never submitted to them and thus didn't sign the contract, so I can say that. :wag:

If forced to chose between them and Publish America, I'd ... uhm, go to Kinko's instead. But yes, I'd say they're worse than PA. They charge fees and have been known to plagiarize from writers.

BTW you can access the thread here:
http://www.speculations.com/rumormill/?z=68579

Crunchy Frog

03-04-2005, 09:18 AM

...is going with a different publisher for books two and three...

http://www.expressseek.com/addpr/show_details.php?id=1287

I wonder just what in the devil is he thinking!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/teufel/devil-smiley-037.gif

Did the author write this article or someone else? 'Cause the article says this...

The Deception by vanity publisher PublishAmerica is beating the odds in a few short months.

Gasp! PublishAmerica is a vanity press??? Nooo!
:tongue

akaa1a

03-04-2005, 09:33 AM

is mixin' it up with a big whuppin' stick on the private board! I have two new heros today...Bonnie and GMort!

:Hail: It's been a good day!

Gratian Gasparri

03-04-2005, 09:48 AM

Thanks Sarashay. I think this is worth repeating over and over again. Since PA also goes after the Christian market, I would like to point out how a small Christian niche publisher treats a two first-time co-authors -- one from a small town in Northern Ontario and the other from a small town in Nova Scotia. (In fact, we have some towns in our respective areas that lack not only a McDonald's but a Tim Horton's as well.) Oh, and while SAMP is one of the largest Catholic publishers in the world, please keep in mind that my co-author and I had signed with Servant, which was a small publisher until SAMP bought it out.

They gave us $US 1,000.00 EACH as an advance - not $1:00

They gave my co-author 25 and me 50 free copies (plus single free copies of other titles we found interesting) - not 2.

They pay for copyright registration - not us.

They send out hundreds of review copies automatically, another couple hundred based upon their market research, and about a hundred that my co-author and I requested.

They list the book on every online site AND ensure, via its catalogue and salesforce and distribution channels, that it's in hundreds of brick and mortar stores in North America.

They provide posters, bookmarks, reimbursement for expenses related to book-signings.

They drop-ship the books I need, on the day I need them, at a 50-60% discount, with the option of returning any remaining copies and of paying within 90 days. The cover price is competitive at 10 bucks.

They arrange and pay for my travel whenever I do large trade shows, interviews or signings.

Result: Quietly, the book has moved over 4000 copies since coming out during the last week of September. About 200 copies (5%) were purchased by my co-author and I combined

Again, as Christian authors we might not have the same opportunities as our secular counterparts, but we still deserve better than what PA is offering us. We also have a moral responsibility to avoid, insofar as possible, those who engage in less-than-godly business practices.

Dolan

03-04-2005, 10:01 AM

Ann: Yes. Both of the private "Bonnie" Posts are there as of now. It is really brutal in there. Mean, mean. I mean mean. Don't go in there without being well armed. The fur is just flying.

Gratian: That NYT ad was a funny deal. No one can really explain why book listings got in the ad. Oh, they try but I haven't seen an explanation that makes any sense. It is something like claiming to be the #1 bestselling PA book but only selling 18 books.

I doubt that Bonnie bought but a few of her own books. She does have a bookstore.

When my book became available last August, I bought 50 of my books and 150 books for one of the people that I wrote about, at his request. The cut off date for the ad was August 31 and my book was not due to be released until September 22. I didn't think it was possible for a book to be eligible for the ad until it was released but I was informed that I made the ad which would be in the September 21, paper.

It seemed goofy to me that a purchase of 200 books would put me on a "bestseller" ad and I did not see any value to me to be in the ad. There was kind of a sinking feeling because I thought 200 books to be very small number.

I was slammed on the PA boards and on these boards for buying my way into the ad. I hope Bonnie doesn't care any more about that ad than I do. It was totally meaningless, except to Frank Weaver who admitted to buying 1,000 books!

Gratian Gasparri

03-04-2005, 10:30 AM

Dolan, thanks for explaining to me how the NYT ad worked, or I guess in this context didn't work. Like you, I am pretty certain Bonnie didn't buy her way into this ad. Rather, my point is that it would cast PA in an even worse light if she did.

On another note, if it isn't much trouble and you have a few spare moments, could you please PM me a few of the Bonnie posts, both pro and con, from the private board? Thanks!

gjmort

03-04-2005, 11:51 AM

Chacounne

03-04-2005, 12:07 PM

Welcome Gjmort,

Here's a comfy seat in front of the fire; set a spell. I'll just go and fetch you some tea or coffee, if you'll let me know which you'd prefer and how you take it.

Chacounne

Galoot

03-04-2005, 12:38 PM

You'll never have to buy a drink in this town again.

Diana Hignutt

03-04-2005, 02:10 PM

Gjmort here.

Nice to be with intelligent friends. I hope my PA past will not be used against me.

Have I horror stories to tell, but I need some sleep. Thanks for the invite and the kind comments. I will continue to work on PA's private board until I am banned. Shouldn't take any time at all. :)

Welcome! And to all new visitors from the PA boards! These are indeed good people here. You will find that no one holds your past against you. I was, at one time, a (gasp) PA Booster, and was welcomed here without reservation.

PublishAmerica is a scam! They are the enemy, not their authors.

Is LBS here yet?

diana

triceretops

03-04-2005, 02:37 PM

gjmort

We're all writing buddies here and we understand what's happened. You'll never be banned from this site. Welcome home.

Triceratops

Alphabeter

03-04-2005, 02:56 PM

Hey Sher2, I will gladly pay you Tuesday if you buy me a hamburger today.
Hey, should that be my motto as a PA author?

PA's motto should be "We will gladly take your money now for a book you wrote yesterday and pay you a week from next royalty period".

And Bonnie, how dare you not apologize on a board you are banned from! Don't you know what that looks like to the other PA authors?
Oh. :Smack:

A (for now) :Sun:

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 03:43 PM

1. I never thought I'd say this, but PA does look better than American Book Publishing. Geez, what a scam, I'm surprised the New Three Stooges haven't contacted the owners for some business tips.

2. I am becoming a big fan of SOoTy's, look at this choice dialogue about the upcoming 200 authors book debacle:

Message:
You aren`t selling anything? <ha ha, that`s a hot one.> You are right about one thing though, it won`t sell. Your target market is the 200 featured authors.
Bookstores and libraries will not buy a $30.00 author catalogue that all other traditional publishers give out for FREE.
I`m not being negative, I`m merely stating the facts which are so obvious.
You are giving false hopes to the authors on this board who think they will get something good out of this project. They won`t, and at least I have the balls to say it.

SOoTyWhich is followed by this tender dialogue:
Message:
Hi Karl,

Well, If I`m Ebenezer, at least I`ll be the one with the money. You`ll be Tiny Tim who is flat broke, and you`ll have to chissel the expensive communal project author catalogue that you can`t sell into a wooden leg. LOL

SOoTySOoTy, if you're out there reading this, please come over to AW, pretty lady, I'm already a fan. Geez, you're honest and have a great sense of humor, we'd love to have ya!

Johanna

03-04-2005, 04:08 PM

See...this is Darwinian, and if one failure [albeit messy] is going to her stop writing, then so be it. A lot of writers have prevailed over much worse rejection. E.g., A Wrinkle in Time and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance were rejected 100+ times. Ironweed was rejected 40 times.

If the publishing world is too cruel for this young woman, so be it. I agree that PA's a scam and has taken terrible advantage of people and their dreams.

I'm hopeful there are many talented PA'ers who'll recover and get even instead of mad.
The thing is, there are a lot of newbies who end up thinking that their "PA experience" is normal and would have happened with any other publisher as well (except it would have been worse, because other publishers hate new authors and PA is nice enough to give new authors a chance... and so on and so forth). They've been given a very twisted view of the industry, and are discouraged before they even know what they've been discouraged from. Think about it, PA feeds them (and encourages) myths all the time to make sure most of them don't even think about trying other publishers, because they've got everything they need at PA (plus, you've got your PA family here!) ; other publishers dislike new authors, they won't market your books, you'll have to pay back your advance, POD is the future and the naysayers will soon be left in the dust, agents cost money, other publishers/agents will steal your hard work, they'll force you to change your precious book until it's a shadow of its former self -- these are just some of the things PA authors get pounded into their heads from day one. Is it any wonder some of them give up? Add to that the fact that so many of them believe that God inspired them to write and publish their work -- so if PA turns out to be bad, then God is either giving their authors some tough love, or punishing them. Either way, it's a small religious crisis on top of their professional one.

Gratian Gasparri

03-04-2005, 04:26 PM

Nice to be with intelligent friends. I hope my PA past will not be used against me.

Not so fast PA author, we would like to have a few questions with you. You will now be subjected to the comfy chair, the fluffy pillow, and a giant feather. Of course you weren't expecting this on the AW board. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Now for your first question: What is your favorite colour?

Sassenach

03-04-2005, 04:55 PM

The thing is, there are a lot of newbies who end up thinking that their "PA experience" is normal and would have happened with any other publisher as well (except it would have been worse, because other publishers hate new authors and PA is nice enough to give new authors a chance... and so on and so forth). They've been given a very twisted view of the industry, and are discouraged before they even know what they've been discouraged from. Think about it, PA feeds them (and encourages) myths all the time to make sure most of them don't even think about trying other publishers, because they've got everything they need at PA (plus, you've got your PA family here!) ; other publishers dislike new authors, they won't market your books, you'll have to pay back your advance, POD is the future and the naysayers will soon be left in the dust, agents cost money, other publishers/agents will steal your hard work, they'll force you to change your precious book until it's a shadow of its former self -- these are just some of the things PA authors get pounded into their heads from day one. Is it any wonder some of them give up? Add to that the fact that so many of them believe that God inspired them to write and publish their work -- so if PA turns out to be bad, then God is either giving their authors some tough love, or punishing them. Either way, it's a small religious crisis on top of their professional one.

It is tough, and none of them paid their 'dues'. It's as good a time as any for them to learn what it's going to take to succeed. Persistence and the ability to handle rejection are two qualities necessary to deal with the publishing world.

As for the cohort of PA'ers having a 'religious crisis', I hope their faith will help them deal with the pain of being scammed. I think your view of religious faith [problems = punishment from God] is simplistic.

Alphabeter

03-04-2005, 05:00 PM

Geez Gratian keep that up and Grmort's gonna think if they keep writing that a "real" publisher is gonna want their book, pay them for it, edit it and market it.

Don't throw them into the light so fast.

Try chocolate and a copy of Atlanta Nights. If they can still function, then they continue.

/tongue-in-cheek

realitychuck

03-04-2005, 05:02 PM

2. I am becoming a big fan of SOoTy's, look at this choice dialogue about the upcoming 200 authors book debacleThe sad fact about that thread is that SOoTy makes the screamingly obvious point that bookstores are not going to pay for a catalog when they get their free. Then someone later says:
We've got the go ahead on it and we can find out after the fact if it's useful as a marketing tool.

This implies you can try any cockamamie scheme to market your book and see if it works.

Hey, let's try thiw one: go on a crime spree and leave a book as your "calling card!" ("Burglars broke into a Walnut Avenue home, stole $20, and left a copy of "PA Book." Police are baffled.") This way, you get paid for the book and the book title goes out to everyone in the city!

Let's go ahead with that and find out after the fact if it's useful as a marketing tool! :Wha:

Sher2

03-04-2005, 05:15 PM

Welcome! And to all new visitors from the PA boards! These are indeed good people here. You will find that no one holds your past against you. I was, at one time, a (gasp) PA Booster, and was welcomed here without reservation.

PublishAmerica is a scam! They are the enemy, not their authors.

Is LBS here yet?
Wow, I've got some new heroes this morning! Gmort, LBS, et al. -- you know who you are. The fur is flying and blood has been let over in PA land. Cool! :snoopy:

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 05:18 PM

....go into a busy Wal-Mart with a hand truck loaded with your PA books, take everyone in the store hostage, and release only those who buy a copy of your book!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/kdchat/rogpen.gif

P.S. gjmort, welcome!

P.S.S. Anyone hear anything lately about the big Holiday Inn signing?

Trapped in amber

03-04-2005, 05:21 PM

Welcome Gjmort:welcome:

:TheWave:

T42

03-04-2005, 05:24 PM

Look, most authors don't make millions, especially first-time authors. Even those published by major publishers often cannot make enough to quit their day jobs. No one is expecting PA to make anyone rich, even if everything they said were true.

But you worked hard to work on your novel. Think of how many hours it took you to write it. And then you get a $2 royalty check to add to your $1 advance from PA.

If it took you 40 hours to type it (a 70,000 word novel would take about that long if you type 30 wpm), then you're making seven and a half cents an hour. Now, if you get it every hour, 40 hours every week that may be enough for you to be living like a king in a 1950s musical comedy*, but it's slave labor nowadays.

And what does this say about how much PA values your effort?

*The Pajama Game
I haven’t even been over to the PA threads to check out the “Bonnie Slamming”. My first week there I was blasted for asking the wrong questions or having a difference of opinion and because I was new to PA they were right down cruel. (The other authors) I was relieved at the time to be banned from the board because I felt alone. I’ve been angry since day one that I signed the contract. My gut said it didn’t feel right but I couldn’t get any answers anywhere accept what PA was telling me.

It’s not just about the money. I worked for over 20 years and my book is made up of over 72 herbal remedy recipes. It’s full of stories, testimonials and humor and I wanted my book published for all the tea customers I have and others to find health through natural sources. My book was about helping others and I’m pissed as hell that it’s going to sit on the PA shelf for seven years. I have encouraged everyone I know not to buy one and I will not ever buy any but it makes me sad.

Gratian Gasparri

03-04-2005, 05:28 PM

Try chocolate and a copy of Atlanta Nights.

Chocolate? Hmmm... I never noticed this before, but yeah, PA does bear an uncanny ressemblance to the Dementors.

Christine N.

03-04-2005, 05:32 PM

Oh my goodness! All this company comin' in so fast. Back to the kitchen.

Sooty, you are da bomb. So surprised that a) your posts are still up and b) you haven't been banned. Gjmort, welcome.

Once y'all get here, not only will you get a comfy chair, but a shoulder to cry on. I'll put more brownies in the oven.

Patricia

03-04-2005, 05:46 PM

Gjmort here.

Nice to be with intelligent friends. I hope my PA past will not be used against me.

Have I horror stories to tell, but I need some sleep. Thanks for the invite and the kind comments. I will continue to work on PA's private board until I am banned. Shouldn't take any time at all. :)

Welcome! :Coffee: You won't be sorry. These people are great and are a wonderful support team. You are just one week behind me.

Glad you made it.

AnneMarble

03-04-2005, 05:55 PM

Gjmort here.

Nice to be with intelligent friends. I hope my PA past will not be used against me.

Don't worry, it won't be used against you. And if anyone did do so, we'd probably hit 'em with a giant trout.

P.S. Hi!

:welcome:

T42

03-04-2005, 05:59 PM

Now on the lighter side…. Hope I don’t get banned for posting this…Hope it’s not considered advertising. If so I will remove it myself. Just don’t ban me from the Garden. :gone:

Before moving to Houston I had a shop in Colorado and it was called “Always Unique”.

When I opened my shop in Houston I called it “Mem’s Rear Window”.

In June I will be moving to the Hill Country around Austin and I need a new name for my shop. I am an old hippie and my shop has Teas, Books, Candles, Incense, Sacred Thread Clothing, Foxy Feet Sandals, Old World type Gifts and lot’s of Art.

Help me name my new shop and the name I choose will get a lifetime of book placement in the shop at no cost to you. Everyone else can place his or her books in my shop for 8% consignment fee. (The same amount you get paid in royalties from PA)

I will also be consigning art and other items for AW members for a 20% consignment fee. (I normally charge a 40%) If you are interested email me or just start putting out the “name of the shop”. I will make a decision on the name by the end of March. Thanks everyone!

PS I will not be taking anything until I get moved to Austin as I have closed the shop here so that I can get the house ready to sale.