The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

[DeePower]

I thought some of the members might be interested in how books get in bookstores.

Six to nine months before a book is scheduled for publication, the publisher develops their catalog for the season. Book publishng has three seasons with the biggest push being for the Christmas holidays. The publisher lists the title, author, price, genre, format, ISBN and at least a brief description of the book. Most of the time the cover is included as well. The books in the front of the catalog have a page, or sometimes two pages all to themselves and include a broader description, the author's bio and the promotional efforts the publisher is going to implement. If there is a book tour (not too common any more) that is listed and if the first printing is substantial, say 50,000 that info is included as well. That's where the term front list originated from, the books the publisher thinks are going to do well are in the front of the catalog.

This catalog is sent to all the independent bookstores and the appropriate buyers for the chains about six months before the season. So for example the Christmas holiday books are in a catalog sent out in June. The catalog is followed up by sales reps who meet with the buyers of the chains and the independent stores.

The buyers put in their orders based on their own feelings about the title, what that author's previous titles did, and what similar books in that genre did. You can have a great book, but if your previous title tanked, it's a hard sell. These original orders are usually placed with the publisher directly. Follow up orders can be placed with the publisher or through Ingram.

It's not the author's responsibility to place books in bookstores, it's the publisher's.

Dee

[bikrpreacher]

That's interesting Dee.
So the PA author is like the little salesman who goes into the big store, trying to peddle his wares, up against the big brand name companies that are already in there. Even the beer company's and the Cola companies have a man that goes around to see what the stores need, we are like the people who set up tables in front of Walmart...not that there is anything wrong with cookie selling, don't get me wrong, but I guess what I'm saying is that publishing a book is a business, and within that business there are things that are supposed to happen, and me having to peddle my book is not one of those things.
I didn't try to get mine in a bookstore, I couldn't imagine...

[LawShark]

I'm going to follow up a little on what Dee said—mostly just emphasis.
<ul><li>Many bookstores, particularly chain bookstores, are at best indifferent and more often actively hostile to being contacted by authors they don't recognize who don't have some kind of local link. Although it's better than a quarter of a century ago, bookstores are still beset by salescreatures, and the tyranny of the distribution <s>oligopoly</s> system greatly influences everything related to what bookstores actually carry.</li>
<li>A local link can be pretty tenuous, and pretty mundane. A historical romance set on the Olympic Peninsula might appeal to a bookstore in Sequim, even if the author has no other connection to the area. Similarly, an author from Sequim whose book otherwise has nothing to do with the area might have similar appeal. The point is that it's a book-by-book struggle, and that it's the placer's job (whether author or publisher) to persuade the bookstore owner that something the bookstore owner didn't immediately desire to order belongs on his/her shelves. Merely asserting that "everyone will want to read the book" is as much the Mark of the Amateur&trade; as is putting a copyright notice on an unpublished manuscript.</li>
<li>In any event, the real question is whether the bookstores' policy makes sense. For books shipped on a returnable basis, the only potential downsides are the expenses of inventorying/shipping and the opportunity cost of shelf space lost to another title. For books shipped on a nonreturnable basis—like almost all of those from PA—there's also a financial opportunity cost that is not bearable in a trade with as low a return on capital as a bookstore.</li></ul>

[James D Macdonald]

The books in the front of the catalog are "Frontlist." The books in the middle of the catalog are "midlist." The books in the back of the catalog (single lines, with the previous years' books that are still in print) are the "backlist."

That's where those terms come from, and that's what they mean.

One reason there are fewer "midlist" books these days is because publishers break up their offerings into various lines and imprints, each with their own catalog. If all the publisher's books were in one long list, there'd be a lot more midlist -- but instead, the same books by the same authors become frontlist in another catalog.

When you, PA author, go to the bookstores trying to get your books shelved, not only are you competing against professional salespeople who have lots of economic leverage on their side (the discounts, the returnability, the reasonable cover prices), you're competing against professional sales people who got there six to nine months before you did.

The false and misleading "Death of a writer, birth of a salesman" page over at authorsmarket.net is not only deceptive, it's damaging. The Prather/Clopper/Meiners combine either knows, or ought to know, that they're lying.

[publishorperish]

The article is really entertaining and includes an except from Atlanta Nights. Meiners and Clopper refused to comment for this one. Perhaps you all are wearing them down? :rollin :rollin

[bikrpreacher]

No, Larry just doesn't want to sound like Homer Simpson any more...you know that comment went to THE desk...doh

Yes, I'm behind the times...ignore me

[Ed Williams 3]

...or Larry say in response? They did offer a contract, they did get snookered, and they are paying a big price from a public relations standpoint for doing so. Actually, they are smarter to say nothing in this situation, anything they would opine on this matter would just dig the hole deeper...

[lindylou45]

I thought there were loads of new authors signing up?

One of these new releases is my second book which wouldn't have been released at all if I could have gotten out of my contract.

Linda

[bikrpreacher]

did everyone fall off their chairs again? The room is almost empyt...

[lindylou45]

Willem is Curly if there ever was one

He certainly looks like a Curly.

Linda

[TuppGal]

*gets back in big comfy chair*


Yes, server seems a bit wonky again today.


tina

[lindylou45]

but when I read his comments, I always visualize Simpson...doh!

Even Homer Simpson is more intelligent than Larry Clopper! (Don't rag on my Homie)!

Linda

[LawShark]

(Sorry, I'm just making fun of Americans who can't pronounce either "nuclear" or "aluminium" correctly—although at least they have an excuse for the latter, because they can't spell it correctly, either!)
<hr>
Upstream a ways, a couple of people asked what will happen to the rights if/when PA (or any other publisher) implodes and goes out of business. By now, regulars from <a href="http://www.rumormill.org" target="_blank">The Rumor Mill</a> at <a href="http://www.speculations.com" target="_blank">Speculations.com</a> know what my answer will be:

It depends!

Seriously, folks, this is actually one of the knottier problems in all of copyright law. The Copyright Office has recently requested comment on the issue (although not put this way) with an eye toward either making an administrative rule or recommending changes to the Copyright Act. It is a fact-specific inquiry that will differ for each publisher (or other exploiter/purchaser of a licence pursuant to the Copyright Act). It is tremendously complicated because it also depends upon the Bankruptcy Code (and, prior to 1978, the Bankruptcy Act of 1898); the state law regarding distribution of assets; the state law regarding business registration requirements; the phase of the moon; the price of tea in China; and more other factors than I can shake a stick at.

In this specific instance, we wouldn't even know how HypotheticalPublisherX goes out of business, because it hasn't happened yet. Possibilities include:
<ul><li>Bankruptcy under Chapter 7 (liquidation)</li>
<li>Bankruptcy under Chapter 11 (reorganization)</li>
<li>Sale or transfer of part or all of the publishing assets to a third party outside of bankruptcy</li>
<li>Merger, acquisition, or sale of the entire business to a third party outside of bankruptcy</li>
<li>Requirements of a will</li>
<li>State law of intestate succession</li>
<li>Voluntary dissolution</li>
<li>Involuntary dissolution for failure to maintain formalities</li>
<li>Involuntary dissolution of a partnership by force of law</li>
<li>Involuntary dissolution as a result of criminal prosecution</li>
<li>Involuntary dissolution as a result of a criminal forfeiture proceeding</li></ul>It should surprise nobody that each of these possibilities has a different answer to "what happens to the rights," and that the list is incomplete.

If this frightens or disturbs you, it should. It was meant to. The point is that facile or general statements are guaranteed to be wrong in this context. Just ask anyone affected by Dove Audio, or Carol Publishing, or Byron Preiss (a different business than the one now operating, and not really his fault)—and those are just the obvious ones. If you really want to unscrew your head, try and figure out who really deserves script credit for Spider-Man by following the chain of rights to that movie! (No, you won't find a published decision; the matter was quietly settled, and my involvement was extremely subterranean.)

[Dhewco]

Reading the PA boards give me a headache. I should stop doing it. Oft times the syntax errors in the post are atrocious. With all the discussion of the PA editors, you'd think they'd take extra careful to check their postings for spelling and punctuation errors, if only to prove they can write.


David

[vstrauss]

Bottom line: even if your publishing contract contains a clause returning rights to you in the event of bankruptcy or business failure, you shouldn't assume this will actually happen.

- Victoria

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Please publish this dud
February 5, 2005
By Scott Martelle / Times Staff Writer
The moral of this story is: Never tick off a science fiction writer. More than a year ago, a website run by PublishAmerica, a controversial Maryland book publisher, took a swipe at some of its vociferous detractors among sci-fi and fantasy authors as...<hr></blockquote>
Oh my God, Jim. I have the article sitting right in front of me. It's...beyond incredible. This is far and away the most shocking article I've seen. I have no idea how this article will be parsed by those in power in Maryland, but if this were me I'd be lacing my coffee with several bottles of bargain basement vodka. Like I said, it's shocking.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Jim, that link you provided is to a pay-for-access portion of the LAT website. On Monday, would you please consider imposing on the author for a courtesy copy, or at least begging for placement on the "regular" LAT website?<hr></blockquote>
Lawshark, I can scan the article and email it to you if you'd like. I'm still reeling. Feel free to email me if you'd like the copy in a few minutes.

[TuppGal]

you have mail priceless1.

tina

[James D Macdonald]

"Do not meddle in the affairs of Geeks, for they are snarky and will make you look like an asshat."
--<a href="http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/620064.html" target="_new">Fandom Wank</a>

[bikrpreacher]

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../11620.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11620.htm)
Look at the advice, in view of what we've read here today on getting books in bookstores...ugh

Message:
I'm going to spew up some stats on what I've come across in the last year, and what was stated in PA's responce to a news article a week or so ago.

~No book is guarenteed to be on the shelves in any book store, in fact, 99% of books do not see shelves in their life time other than the author's local area. If all books were to be added to stores nation wide, just based on new releases it would have to add 17 of shelf space a day. PA releases 80 to as high as 125 books a week, now think of the 56,000 other publishing houses and self publishers out there... it's just not a easy thing to get done. Make no mistake, you are working in a "diamond in the rough" type of business. Just because you can act, doesn't mean you will make to the A list.

~ PA promises National availibility, not national shelving. Hence, each of our books are placed on Amazon.com, barnesandnoble.com...etc. I have found my book on about 10 different online only book sites and have no clue as to how it was picked up. Plus, Amazon will list you on their other sites like Amazon UK, France, and 2 or 3 others. So you do have international availibility.

Some of us have had success with stores like Barnes and Noble, while others small paperback shack type stores, and still some find no help anywhere. I personally believe this is completely left to your salesmanship in making a store manager interested and believing that your book will sell. If you don't project the idea that it is worth having on a shelf and your word is all they have to go on, then it doesn't mean a whole lot, no matter what you tell them.

Take this as an example: you are owning your own business with PA as your initial backer. They have paid for all services rendered in creating your book, minus the story of course, and now they are looking for a return as are you. This is now your job. If you don't have the money to order some copies to get you started for book signings and/or consignment sales through a book store, take a small business loan. If you thought your book was worth submitting and people will read it, then you also had to believe that you could afford some risk on your own to get it out there.

It can be done, as I have my book on a few shelves here in California with several book signings done and coming up. I even have a barnes and noble that is keeping my book in stock that they purchase, who's store manager is helping me get into neighboring stores. So eventually I hope for it to spread like a disease.

Best of luck to each of us, and take what you want from this message. Hope I helped some of the next generation PA'ers.

[winniemitzandme]

Hey Lynn, I like a fun read too. Could you send another copy to my email address, that would be: vladytoe@aol.com.

Thanks
Violet

[Sarashay]

:eek They found the last page of The Eye of Argon??!?!?!

I must see this. Jim Theis was obviously a huge literary influence on our own Travis Tea.

'shay

[XThe NavigatorX]

Poor Lynn. I'm afraid you're about to get inundated with requests for the article.

matt(at)mattdinniman.com

(7000 posts, and it's only the 5th. I was waaaay off. I had predicted 6000 by the 28th.)

[James D Macdonald]

To avoid filling the board with requests for the article, why not take private things like that to email?

<HR>

<BLOCKQUOTE> Yvonne poured herself a drink and melted into the chair across from Callie. She brushed a strand of moltenly hair from her eyes and proceeded to carve the ham. Callie watched intently. Juice streamed from the ham in rivulets like saliva drooling from the fierce jaws of a wild dingo poised over the dead carcass of its prey in the dingo-eat-dingo world.</BLOCKQUOTE>
-- Atlanta Nights

[Zazopolis]

Alright, I have Atlanta Nights.
I don't want to read it.
BUT!
I continue to see these ridiculous quotes and I feel as if I must...start...reading...it...now.
Damn you, Travis Tea!

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> To avoid filling the board with requests for the article, why not take private things like that to email?<hr></blockquote>
I agree. That's why I suggested that people email me. This board gets filled up enough.

[XThe NavigatorX]

Sorry about cluttering the board. Hey Lynn, you didn't post your email address, and the EZboard only lets you send a limited amount of instant messages a day, I believe. :)

[Ed Williams 3]

This LA Times article has got to be the most damning one yet. The worst thing is that Meiners or Clopper offered no rebuttal, which, of course, they can't. The evidence is there that they offered up a contract for "Atlanta Nights." If I were anyone currently promoting PA this would not be a good day...

[lindylou45]

Could you send another copy to my email address,

Me too -- roberts_linda2003@yahoo.com

Thanks

Linda

[TuppGal]

I'd be happy to use my newly acquired new new new PA password (Banned, my arse!) And reprint the article in every forum if someone will email me the article in a txt format. tinasam69@hotmail.com :) Certified sh*t stirrer at your service, m'lords.


Edited: as soon as I find my password or they send me another one as I've requested.

tina

[MaryCloud]

Hey everyone!

Haven't been to the board for a few days. Much time spent thanking the Creator (tho I have stopped short of sacrificing small animals or dancing naked under the full moon) for dodging the PA bullet. This due to advice from dear friend and this thread, which has a kind of 'soap opera' quality to it and taken on a life of its own.

Thanks, too, to NancyMehl for the U.K. article. Just sorry to hear they've managed to infect another country and its authors like some kind of pandemic flu. Whatever happened to 'truth in advertising'?? Still, considering the current administration in D.C. (which is such a shining example to us all >D ), I suppose there are exceptions to this rule. Apparently PA and others like them fall into this category. Welcome to the 21st. century! A world of grifters and scam artists. Watch your back!

Mary ;)

P S

Anyone here able to recommend an online 'workshop' where a new author could get some decent, honest and constructive criticism? Neither a standard-form rejection, nor an open invitation to publish even if it has no quality. In spite of Jack Nicholson, yes, I CAN handle the truth. Better than being flimflammed and paying for it in creative confidence (and money!) later.

[Ed Williams 3]

"Humor novelist H.B. Marcus of Burton, Ohio, for example, says that his royalties amount to "cigarette money twice a year" but believes that if he just keeps plugging he can build a readership."

Bad thing is, those cigarettes keep going up in price...

:smokin :evil :hat

[triceretops]

It seems that a PA author is recommending that other authors and their families swarm single book stores and question why the store is not carrying their wonderful titles. He suggests the campaign be launched for the older PA titles, via phone and personal appearances, until they "wear them down" enough to agree to stocking said PA books.

I guess they attack one store at a time with mass "word of mouth" as though the title was a hot release, and the store is really missing out if it's not shelved.

I do not (ever) begrudge someone the avenue of attaining more readership. But I suspect that this tactic is unprofessional and apt to have an adverse reaction. Again, due to PA's TOTAL lack of marketing, authors are now inclined to take drastic measures to accomplish a readership base.

What would such an assault on a bookstore/manager do, as far as making a decision? Any bookstore people out there have any comments on this?

Tri

[James D Macdonald]

The minimum price of a carton of cigarettes (in the State of New Jersey) is $45.97.

The current royalties for Atlanta Nights stand at $124.88.

In other words, right now we could buy two cartons of cigarettes, and have $32.94 left over for beer.

Seriously, though, anyone who smokes: Quit right now. Unless you want to have your next booksigning in a hospital emergency room, that is.

We have a saying on the ambulance corps: If it weren't for alcohol, tobacco, and stupidity, we'd be out of work.

[publishorperish]

Can't you just use all the money to buy a couple of kegs of beer? Party! I'll bring the music!

btw - I too have access to the article. If anyone wants it ->tab@apocalypsecow.org

[Zazopolis]

I'm lightin' one up right now. :smokin

[bikrpreacher]

WOW, LOL, what a story. Travis Tea, take a bow. LOL

[Ed Williams 3]

....how you got this cool deal underneath your nick?

Irate over the
lack of agitated
doofuses

I'm a big fan, your posts are hilarious!

:p :smokin

[bikrpreacher]

Oh no! Ed encouraged him!
(I like him too, but never ever tell anyone-it's a secret)

[Zazopolis]

p197.ezboard.com/fabsolut...=153.topic (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm32.showMessage?topicID=153.topic)

Ed,
My early visits to the Cooler had me flabbergasted as to the small number of agitated doofuses or doofi, not sure on the plural yet.

It's all noted in the above posted thread from the Take It Outside board. Enjoy.

You can actually view the post where I went from New Friend to the blah blah blah doofuses that I am today.
That sounds bad.

[Ed Williams 3]

1. Zaz, you have one of the best dry senses of humor on here. Keep it up.

2. I still wanna know what you have to do to get something really cool, really thought provoking, underneath your nick. I have something that expresses my inner essence in just six words...

[TuppGal]

Wow. You're whole essence in six words?

I couldn't get yours condensed to just six.... I was torn between putting in hooters or icees....:eek

tina




PS...I googled my name. #8 link was this:

The Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America) - www. ...
... I think you just created PA because you couldn't get your own crappy books published.
Tina Samuels FRIENDS FAMILY Don't BUY from PublishAmerica! ...
p197.ezboard.com/ fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=209.t opic&start=6641&stop=6660 - 101k - Cached - Similar pages

lol I loved it. especially when most of the other links were reviews to the PA people I exchanged books with

[bikrpreacher]

Okay, we might have to go to the campout...I'm supposed to be doing the wedding. I googled my name, not enough absolutwrite there...reading Atlanta when one of my boys puts it down, I tell ya, I just might have to get another copy.
Do you all think anyone at PA will EVER notice Atlanta Nights? I keep waiting for that post to show up, people are talking about it in all my emails, do the authors on the board really exist? I tried something, if it didn't work, I'll come right back and delete.

drat

[XThe NavigatorX]

I just read the LA Times article. Plenty of quotes from Uncle Jim and Ann. I'm very impressed, guys.

I still think the Post story is the best one, but this article was mostly about Atlanta Nights than the many facets of the PA story. The Times seemed irritated PA refused to comment, so they stuck it to them pretty hard. I can't imagine anyone reading that and ever wanting to go with them.

Lee Goldberg posted a link to a version of the article you don't have to sign up for to read. Thanks to our old friend Mark York for pointing me in the right direction. (of course he did it after I spent 5 minutes OCRing the scan of the article Lynn sent me.)

leegoldberg.typepad.com/a_writers_life/ (http://leegoldberg.typepad.com/a_writers_life/)

[TuppGal]

whoohoo, finally. now I will make sure that the PA board is covered with it as soon as I can log in there again:)

tina

[afanofthetruth]

Why not give Ed his six words? I for one, am dying to know what he wants to express in essence under his name. :D

[TuppGal]

I too believe that it will resonate...

tina

[triceretops]

To the very bright girl who wanted to know about the PA authors swarming the bookstores--I left directions on how to get it on your website

Triceratops

[XThe NavigatorX]

Was this news story talked about?

www.click2houston.com/new...etail.html (http://www.click2houston.com/news/4156758/detail.html)

It looks like it was on the local Houston NBC news. Jenna was interviewed.

[publishorperish]

Nuts, I missed that and I'm in Houston. Thanks!

Is the PA site down?

[James D Macdonald]

Publish America told Local 2 that the author's friends and family make up a small percentage of the sales. Officials said they market with news releases and review copies.

Okay. Let's see if this is true:

18 per book to friends and family. (Actually, that would be 18/book responding to PA's friends-and-family mailing -- they wouldn't know how many F&F buy at the special order desk at bookstores.)

15 per book via brick-n-mortar bookstores.

75 sold per book (on average).

So, yes! PA's statement is true!

24% of PA books are sold to Friends and Family. That's a small percentage.

20% are sold through bookstores.

That leaves 56% unaccounted for. Larry says that less than half the books are sold to the authors themselves, and I wouldn't want to accuse Larry of fibbing, so let's say the authors buy 49% directly from PublishAmerica.

The other 7% comes from strangers (or from the author, the author's family, and the author's friends) buying through amazon.com, bn.com, other on-line retailers, or directly from the PA website. By a weird coincidence 7% is close to the internet's share of total bookbuying.

Of the (20!) books that are sold retail, 25% are on-line and 75% are through bookstores. Therefore, "most" books that are "sold retail" are sold "in" brick-and-mortar bookstores, just like PA says.

(Copies sold to the author and copies sold via the special family-and-friends promotion aren't sold "retail.")

This contains a bunch of assumptions. I'm looking forward to the information that subpoenas will bring to see how close my guesses were to the truth.

[Ed Williams 3]

...pretty close to the target there re those PA book sales figures. And I still can't believe that LA Times article about "Atlanta Nights," surely that will move a few copies of this wondrous epistle.

The New Three Stooges, Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem have got to be wondering when this media onslaught is going to end...

[Sher2]

The New Three Stooges, Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem have got to be wondering when this media onslaught is going to end...

Moe-randa and Curlem -- I love it.;) When will the onslaught end? Shoot, I think it's just now building up momentum. It ain't over by a longshot. Do you suppose the Moronic 3 are busy getting their traveling papers in order?

Sherry

[TuppGal]

God, lets hope so!

t

[bikrpreacher]

So, 80% to self and family and friends. I have a small family, lol.
I can't believe Atlanta Nights, I honestly thought they formatted the manuscript before they printed it! I am so stupid! Re, page 44, ha 57, there is more, didn't you all think that they AT LEAST formatted the pages? Why do they tell you that if you add too many words you will mess up the format then? This is crazy. :rollin

[DaveKuzminski]

If you're posting somewhere that they delete posts that tell the truth, you might want to consider disguising the topics with Moe-ronic titles or post in existing topics. You might even post one or two messages first before springing the real meat into the new topic. You might even start off the actual post with something that's sweet or totally in synch with the topic before changing gears to what you want to say.

Also, use cut and paste to your advantage. Have what you want to say ready to paste so that you can reach numerous topics with ease. Then when you do, hit as many topics as possible before they catch up to you with a banishment. Then when they do, you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that you might have reached at least one other writer who doesn't know or suspect the truth yet.

[bikrpreacher]

That's right, the faster you can put the messages everywhere, the better off you are, that's what I did right before I was banned, I could watch them deleting as I was posting, but a couple stayed long enough hidden. They can't read everything. I used the copy and paste, just pasted it everywhere.If you min. your screens so that two can go side by side, you can post in the public and private... I still can't post...I'm just shocked about it, aren't you?
Chris;)

[Ed Williams 3]

...that PA would do that to you. What a bunch of wax sandwiches...

:x

[DaveKuzminski]

I just hope that some of those employees that PA has hired are aware that some of the actions they're told to do may be illegal. By following through with those, they may be placing themselves in legal jeopardy.

As well, it should be apparent to them already that PA's house is crumbling. How many more major news stories do they think PA can weather before the authorities act now that the media is focusing attention on PA? Are they that eager to meet Mike Wallace or later share a room at Camp Cupcake with Moe-randa?

If they're smart, they'll also "accidentally-on-purpose" miss some posts so that they can later swear how they helped expose the ongoing fraud to more writers. Remember, Moe-randa can only read so much before her eyes glaze over.

[James D Macdonald]

Full text of the article's been posted <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/pegruda/11955.html" target="_new">here</a>.

[bikrpreacher]

If they're smart, they'll also "accidentally-on-purpose" miss some posts so that they can later swear how they helped expose the ongoing fraud to more writers. Remember, Moe-randa can only read so much before her eyes glaze over.

This is a great idea, they could even take screen shots. You can bet that if I worked with them right now, I'd be doing something to cover myself, maybe even get in touch with you Dave, or someone for sound advice. I can't imagine how tough it would be to be there looking at it all.

[DaveKuzminski]

Whether it means anything to you or not, I've been a writers' advocate for nine years now with the Preditors & Editors (tm) site. I've learned a few things over the years. One of the most shocking points didn't hit me until almost after a year of examining scams. What was it?

Almost every scammer (agent, publisher, or editing service) avoids signing minors. The few I've heard of that were signed were generally by accident and the scammers almost invariably rushed to return any money and terminate the contract with the minor upon learning that their client wasn't of age. Why?

Because the scammers knew that the courts would look very unfavorably upon such a contract as grossly unfair, not to mention taking advantage. Furthermore, the scammers knew that such cases could reach the court quicker than anything else because those would grab the attention of prosecutors who would want to prove to their communities that they protect their children.

Now compare PA to other publishers, many of whom have published books written by children. How many child authors has PA signed?

Shouldn't that tell you something? Shouldn't that tell you something serious and significant?

If anyone wants to post this in PA's forum as a quote from me, feel welcome to do so.

[Whachawant]

"The New Three Stooges, Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem ...."

....classic....

"Do you suppose the Moronic 3 are busy getting their traveling papers in order?"

Hardly,........like most scam artists, they probably already have an escape plan laid out and can apply it at the last minute....

[bikrpreacher]

Good info Dave, I'm going to go watch the PA boards for awhile, it's been kinda dead over there if you've noticed.;)

Edited to fix mistakes, I've been reading Atlanta Nights

[bikrpreacher]

and some of them STILL don't know I'm a woman. I could go to the camp out and no one would know who I was"! :rollin
they won't post but the emails are pouring in...lol good grief. wonder if your email can crash your computer?

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/7651.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/7651.htm)

[XThe NavigatorX]

:lol You're going to get the poor girl banned, and she won't know why.

[bikrpreacher]

Yes she will know why, we are emialing back and forth...she just told me to go pray because we are in hot water...I'm bad but it's been so quiet:rollin

but guess what! I'm getting more unhappy author emails by the second...lol I'm telling them all to come join me over here!

[DaveKuzminski]

That poses an interesting dilemma for PA.

What if hundreds of PA writers asked on the PA forum the same question or posted the same link to a site critical of PA?

Just think of the overall impact after PA bans them all. The PA board would screech to a near halt with only HB, Joyce, Marti, Kas, and a few others left to post.

Personally, I think it would be worth recommending to many of those writers. It would surely be a wakeup call for some that are only at the questioning stage if they saw that many writers suddenly banned at the same time for only asking a question.

[bikrpreacher]

You are a genuis!
And the logo woke up, but HA! I have more people now...maybe it will pop up somewhere else...you never know what those crazy authors over there will do.

[bikrpreacher]

I see you all fell off your chairs again...you have to watch that.
www.publishamerica.com/cg...s/2894.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/newauthors/2894.htm)
Well, not the way I would have put it, but I'm not there...maybe she won't get banned...
Message:
This is another slam for our publisher if anyone is keeping up with it and wants to read it. www.livejournal.com/users...11955.html (http://www.livejournal.com/users/pegruda/11955.html)

[TuppGal]

I think I hurt myself on that last fall


*rubs heiney*


t

[bikrpreacher]

WEll, that one didn't last as long as the first one..and missy just posted on the camp out thread so she's not banned yet,
they won't ban them, but they will never again let me in I dont' think. Well, gotta go watch a movie. I really wish they all could see that article about the book...I asked one other to post on the writing discussion board, maybe she will.
Anyway, nite all...see you tomorrow.
Chris

[kelblend]

bikrpreacher-I didn't try to get mine in a bookstore either.
I sold MaryKay a long time ago and had way more luck with that! When I did that, I knew what the deal was at the beginning. However, there was a lot of people to turn to for advice and the name was well known. I can't find any advantages now. My book was printed and that's pretty much the long and short of it.


Wanted to add that years ago, I worked in a small bookstore. We would order any book the customer wanted, if we could. The rub was that the customer paid the price and the shipping as well. I know that was years ago, and the customer usually just wanted something they couldn't find in stores, but was still in print.

I can't imagine a customer going into a bookstore and asking for my book. Could they find it? Would they even order a copy for someone and add the shipping? I don't even think it would be as easy as it was for us years ago.

[James D Macdonald]

Lulu Sales Rank: 58
Hits: 20,875
Sales: 144
Royalties: $162.50

Mentioned on 402 web pages.
Discussed in 85 blogs and LiveJournals.

"Your story-fu is strong, young Jedi."

<a href="http://www.lulu.com/commerce/addreg.php?fBuyContent=102550">
<img src="http://www.lulu.com/themes/common/images/icons/buynow_hw_orange.gif" border="0" alt="Buy Atlanta Nights at Lulu!">
</a>

[Ed Williams 3]

...you have a cult hit on your hands, maybe more. I imagine Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem are not real happy campers about it all right now.

Shemp: "I'm as pretty as a picture."

Moe: "Yeah. Of an ape." *WHAP*

Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk...

[PixelFish]

Whenever Larry says that less than half of the books were purchased by the authors, I always think that he must be sneakily bypassing the fact that the PA authors still pimp their books to each other, and that one of the ways one seems to get popular over there on their boards is by purchasing and reviewing each others books. At that point, you could have the author not purchasing his books so much as all of his new buddies anxious to help show how PA is helping them live their dream. The forums must work wonders for the sales amongst their circles: one of them shows up and praises PA for taking a chance on them, everyone says, "Yes, I know, isn't PA awesome? They really believe in us." And then before you know it, the PA authors are buying each other's books to help each other out, or because so-and-so bought THEIR book and they want to return the favour.

[James D Macdonald]

Yeah, I agree: They're growing their own audience. 11,000 happy authors are an audience for each other. If each buys one other PA author's book, that's an additional 11,000 sales, for an additional $55,000 in unearned income.

I can't see that as being a very big audience, though. Nobody is going to buy all 8,000 currently available or all 11,000 potentially available.

In general, PA authors buy and read the same books everyone else buys and reads: Legitimately published works from known authors that are on the shelves in bookstores.

[astonwest]

"The forums must work wonders for the sales amongst their circles"

I actually tried to work this during my last visit to their boards. Unfortunately, they were watching me like a hawk, and took the first post that had any remote chance of being subversive as being a reason to ban me (and to remove the entire thread where I was plugging my book, quite successfully up to that point). Funny, I wasn't being subversive, I was just trying to sell books...isn't that what we're supposed...............

Oh, wait...

:hat
Big Daddy West

[bikrpreacher]

Kelblend...hope I spelled that right..I'm afraid it's even worse today. Today, PA makes sales to bookstores beyond the first one impossible. They don't just delay any more, they don't fill orders period. If they get a larger order, they lose the invoice and pretend they lost it...yes they make it impossible to sell your books. This is the real killer, because they delete any post they keep everyone in the dark. People stay in that little community long enough to get their books and begin to try, what the board is really is another world in which everything is covered up.
With the emails I sent to those I have been talking to, when they read the link,they responded that they and their families have been discussing the fact that the prices are too high, and that they don't know about agents and real publishers. But it's easier not to talk about it because if they bring anything up on the board, poof.
One was banned, not sure yet about the other, one knew she would be, the other was shocked that her post was pulled so quick.
What I'm finding is that people think they are the only ones who are questioning, the one's who have been away from the messageboards had no idea that PA was doing things to everyone and not just them.
I'll have to put together an email for them of all the things I'm finding and send them over here.
A lot of people are afraid of this publisher. Are any of you afraid of your publisher? I doubt it. During the day, during the week, I'll have to be off the computer for awhile, but I'll still be working on this stuff. Every chance I get I'll be sending and answering emails.
I have emailed support and some of the editors with links to Atlanta Nights, and explained what I am finding out on my own. If any of them do get over here, I welcome your emails, as I'm sure many here do. It's not too late for them to get out of dodge, which I am recommending to them, because this company is coming down.
I have written to my congressman, and I would encourage everyone here to do so. I have asked the age old question, what's it going to take to get someone to do something about this, an act of congress?
I like all of the writers on the board, I wish for them to know the truth. I know its a little scary, but you all have email addresses of authors over there, I ask that you write to them and tell them what you know. They all 'know' but need someone to talk to about it that won't sugar coat everything. The truth always is best, don't let anyone think you are hiding over here and you know it's easy on the board to not come here. All of you from PA are well known over there, give your friends a chance. If you don't want to write to them, send me their email addresses at author.chris@gmail.com I know them all too, it won't be strange for them to hear from me. If everyone here will write to everyone they know, there will be a real lull on the boards, I'd almost be willing to bet that no one will go on their are tell that they heard from you, because they will understand, and they will more than likely come over here.
Bye for now...those of you who have asked me to look into something via privately, know that I am doing that and I'll get back to you.
Chris

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

I Googled PublishAmerica (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25187-2005Jan20.html) and Publish America (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25187-2005Jan20.html) this morning. Our WaPo article is third in the results for the former. It is second only to PA itself, and an indented "deeper" link to PA itself. Everything beyond the WaPo article are unflattering to PA: a writers.net forum, a critique.org write-up of Atlanta Nights, a few more anti-PA website articles, and, of course, this forum itself.

Yee-hah!

We really have to work hard at book publisher (http://www.absolutewrite.com/novels/find_a_book_publisher.htm) and book publishing (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/publishing.htm), though. Top search results for both of those continue to be PA, iUni, and AuthHo (abbreviated to deny them the publicity). Exception: Searching on the latter returned me www.oreilley.com and a www.lights.com article mixed in with the usual suspects.

[XThe NavigatorX]

Hey, that which is not talked about is working, then. It was third on the list just yesterday, and today it's second. Getting it one step higher is going to be all but impossible, I think.

[RealityChuck]

That's a nice one. If they thought the Post article was bad, this is even worse. Which, of course, is good.

I was tickled to discover they mentioned my website to get the free version. Was that your doing, Jim? I've had an additional 250 hits on the page since the article appeared.

[bikrpreacher]

Message:


I certainly appreciated that link, it got me a lot of attention on the board last night...some of those hits you got were from people on the message board, pretty cool.
Chris

[James D Macdonald]

New!

Get the <a href="http://www.cafepress.com/atlanta_nights" target="_new">Atlanta Nights T-Shirt</a>! Tell your friends!

[DaveKuzminski]

You should make the other image available on the shirts, too.

Are you going to send one to Larry, Willem, and Miranda? It must be cold in Frederick, Maryland now that they don't have as many manuscripts to toss on the fire. ;)

[James D Macdonald]

There will be more images. That's just to get things started.

[ohionewwriter]

After recently developing my first story, I ran across Publish America and submitted it. I then ran across this thread and although I write just as a hobby, I decided not to support Publish America out of respect to other writers on this thread. The interesting thing is after I posted my story on lulu.com I came across something I didn't know. My word program on my new emachines computer is not compible with most systems. I noticed that my work assignments to my boss and assignments to my college professors could not be opened. I sent my word programs to other authors on lulu.com for a review. They could not open them. Yet, I sent those same files to Publish America and they accepted my story and sent me a contract by email and regular mail. How come out of everyone I sent files to, only PA could open them. Sounds like PA didn't even read them and accepted my story anyway. By the way, thanks for this thread, it helps open new writer's eyes.

[bikrpreacher]

ohionewwriter,
Hi new friend! Is your book published, or are you in the new stage, I'm asking because I'm wondering if, like my first book, you might get an email asking you to re-send it because it messed up...they STILL might not have read it. Curious.

[ohionewwriter]

I never did respond back to them. I got the hard copy of the contract in the mail last week. It said because it wasn't done it done needed to be finished and sent back by March 1. Then the other day I got an email saying they wanted more information so they could send out the press release. They wanted to know which paper and other information. Of course, I received the standard,"We have decided to give ...... the chance it deserves." I'll bet the moment I would upload it, it goes straight to print like lulu does it." Since they sent out the hard copy of the contract and emailed me tax forms, I would have to say they were going to upload it to pod next.

[bikrpreacher]

That's going to be interesting, I think they need you to send it in another format, but just either don't know it yet, or they are waiting for you to sign the contract. It would be interesting but I'm not telling you not to sign or send info,. but it would be interesting to see what happens.

[Sher2]

I got the hard copy of the contract in the mail last week.

If you haven't signed the contract yet, you still have wiggle room. I'd e-mail them immediately and say you've changed your mind.

Sherry

[bikrpreacher]

Wow, not only that Ohio, look in your inbox for a message from me.

[James D Macdonald]

If you haven't signed the contract I'm going to come out right here and say DO NOT SIGN THAT CONTRACT!.

Save yourself a world of grief.

Discard any future correspondence from them unread.

<HR>

If you want to see what the press release would read, you can do it yourself (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessage?topicID=690.topic) and save Miranda the trouble of running her mailmerge program. You're the one who supplied the addresses the release would be sent to, so you won't be losing any opportunities. (Press releases don't have to be sent on letterhead paper or anything.)

[bikrpreacher]

That is what I think also, but have been skirting it...you can tell. I wouldn't sign it and send it back if they PAID me.
How wonderful they have this opportunity! I noticed they gave them a deadline.

Just read and clicked on the do it yourself link above...LOL,
I get mad every time I read that. My ad was in a paper with other POD books, only THEY got to write their own releases, I tell ya, mine was tiny compared to theirs, and they got to write about their books, anything they wanted, and at the end they tacked a tiny bit about the publisher.

[kelblend]

I don't remember them asking for anything for a press release from me. I was "accepted" in May of '03. I got my local newspaper to do the story and THEY contacted PA, not the other way around. Wonder if they actually contact author's local newspapers now.

[bikrpreacher]

With the 100 names you sent in, didn't they ask you for the name of someone at a paper too?

[Sher2]

didn't they ask you for the name of someone at a paper too?

I was asked, but nothing was ever sent out. Of course, now I'm glad it wasn't. How embarrassing would that be?!

Sherry

[blackelve13]

Argh, and don't.....I used PA for one deal only. I used them because the book I wrote wasn't a fictional book, and was too short for most publishers. (It was a Pagan cookbook using natural herbal recipes for shampoos, bath oils ect.)
I must admit I sold quite a few of my book the first 6 months and ended up with a nice check....250.00 the first time, 110.00 the second check....but now the checks have dwindled down to 50.00 only.
The only reason I used PA in the first place was because of the shortness of the book and the quickness of getting it out. (I liked the freeness (I know, not a word...but long day at work and refuse to hit the dictionary or my mind) of being able to get books out for a christmas gift to special people who wanted these recipes.) At first I was suprised by the sells of the book, but after a few emails, the buyers were people I have known for years via cons, and circles. They loved the book, they loved the cover....but when they went back to PA to find other books, they got horrid editing and some books were actually missing pages. (I also experienced this during reviewing for PA authors)....plus, warning...warning...warning....
THEY *yes I am yelling* don't send a 1099 out for your taxes and that caused me problems last year during tax season, and still waiting for this years...which means more calls and more emails to get one!!!!!!

Danielle

[bikrpreacher]

Hi Blackelve, welcome. Your book came out in 2003, yet you say at the end of message: Witchery Cooking due out this Fall: written as Willow Glenn. Have you written another one?
Just clarifying. Your experience wasn't too awfully bad, but had you gone too far beyond those sales, you'd have started to get trouble getting PA to send you more, according to information I'm receiving. Are you saying that you have two books out? How did people order books with mistakes, are you saying that your book came out and THEN something happened that there were mistakes?
Hope you will stick around, you saw Atlanta Nights, now this is a big book, and the price is lower than yours. But your first check was nice acording to other PA authors who get a dollar forty nine. LOL
Chris

BTW, I think I visited your web site and found it enjoyable.

[kelblend]

No, I don't recall them asking at all. I asked my husband if he remembered that and he said that he remembered it was up to me to get it done.

Okay, I found the article. The journalist Brian Powell called PA.

Here's part:
"First Impression," available since Feb. 26 and listed at $16.95 in paperback, was her first attempt at publication. So far there are 24 copies in circulation through PublishAmerica and unknown numbers circulating through online retailers such as Amazon.com, Ingram, Borders or Barnes&Noble.

PublishAmerica uses digital print-on-demand technology. Rather than printing thousands of copies at once, PublishAmerica prints each book to order. As a result, Singer's book is only available for purchase online. (Not sure where that statement came from. I know I didn't say it, so assume it came through PA)

Okay I say something like I never thought they would want to see the whole thing after just submitting a small description.

article goes on: But they did. The company took Singer's story and made her one of more than 6,000 authors PublishAmerica has published.
"We choose our books by what's in demand for the market, " said Lynn Comer, office manager at PublishAmerica. "(Singer's) story was in demand."
PublishAmerica pays it authors royalties from 8 percent to 12.5 percent, slightly higher than average, according to their web site.
"We just did royalties in February," said Comer. "We do them every six months, so (Singer) should start to see something then, and we can see how many we are selling."



The beginning of the article hilights my book. The journalist actually put my blurb on the back of my book in there. I'm glad PA didn't do it. I thought I sounded stupid in the article, so I didn't show you all that part. lmao
Who is Lynn Comer? Have we heard of her before?

[DaveKuzminski]

Blackelve, sounds to me like you should switch to Lulu.

[blackelve13]

Excuse the old thingie at end of my writing...that was from last year. (I just wrote who I am in the newbie section...haven't been online for awhile, and forgot I had that message set at end of all my shitski)

Yeah, I been looking at Lulu and tempted to try them out when I have time....check out why via newbie section here to understand instead of me replaying the whole dealie-tat. (typing one handed don;t mind oopsies, holding food in one hand as typing..lol)

and yes, PA was nice at first, but they are a real screw-up eventually as I found out the hard way.

Danielle

[afanofthetruth]

They went ahead and finished banning me, sometime last night. I haven't even posted on the private board, except once (for a good reason ), since 1/16/05. Since I washed my hands of PA's company.

So, I decided having received the wrong PA's author 1099 Misc for 2005, that I needed to know what to do with it. I asked a qustion about it on a 1099 Misc thread to have it pulled for asking if I send it back to PA.

How childish and unprofessional they are. I just wanted to know what I should do with the other person's form. I am so glad I am free from PA and the whole cult thing.

[lindylou45]

In general, PA authors buy and read the same books everyone else buys and reads: Legitimately published works from known authors that are on the shelves in bookstores.

Not to mention the fact that most PA authors can't afford to pay $19.95 for a paperback book.

Linda

[Whispering Bard]

From a Yahoo pro-PA group:

Just to let each of you know ...
If you receive an email from a former member of this group
(bikrpreacher)... SHE is sending an email under the name of Richard
Bartholomew, warning people of something or other.

Please note that Ms. Chris Bartholomew has been bashing PA on various
sites and evidently thinks she's so clever that nobody knows.

Just a warning for you not to bother to respond to her email.


With all the crap they are putting up with already, Chris, I think it would be smart, not to mention kind, to at least be up front with these people about who you are when you correspond with them. Just a thought.

[afanofthetruth]

That must be from that pro PA group that only wants to hear "the good stuff" about PublishAmerica. :rollin

[lindylou45]

With the 100 names you sent in, didn't they ask you for the name of someone at a paper too?

I was never asked for the name of a paper.

Linda

[James D Macdonald]

For Danielle --

Hi. You're in the best possible position for a person going to PA -- you have a specialized non-fiction book with a defined audience. Self-publishing might be right for you, if none of the small presses that cover that area (Llewellyn?) were interested. You're using PA as a (very expensive) printer, with the negatives that come with that choice. I wish you luck.

<HR>

For those with questions about tax matters, there's no substitute for talking with a tax professional, or calling the IRS office nearest you to ask your questions. This isn't something that I'd ask random strangers on the Internet about; I don't need the kind of hassle Uncle Sam can give folks who get it wrong.

<HR>

The reason regular publishers don't charge $19.95 for a trade paperback is because readers balk at that kind of price. If readers were willing to pay it, publishers would be happy to charge it.

<HR>

I think that Chris (bikrpreacher) is using a family email account that has her husband's name on it. Not being sneaky or underhanded, just that's the name on the account. Chris: Many providers will set their customers up with more than one email account. Something to consider. (Also -- get a firewall, a spam filter, and an antivirus program if you don't already have one.)

<HR>
Slashdot (http://slashdot.org/articles/05/02/06/0323218.shtml?tid=133&tid=214&tid=192) has picked up the Atlanta Nights story. When we hit 500 sales will we be considered for Independence Books?

[blackelve13]

James,

Hi...I already used PA, and your reasoning was why. I didn't go to LLewellyn with it as the page length was only 70 odd pages. Like I said, at first I was quite happy with them, but since then I have had a bit of problems with PA.

One of my biggest beefs is that bookstores don't care to work with PA. I had no problems when I had used IUniverse (I was one of the first before the cost when quite high) for rehashing past published stories (I had a chapbook out years back with my short stories in it, and for a gift my friend paid for me to redo them using IUniverse)...

But yes, folks..if you ever do have to work with PA...I highly recommend, edit...edit...edit your work....then double check your copy they send you. I have seen some nasty errors in quite a few PA books and it is the author's fault usually as PA doesn't do editing for free.

Danielle

[Sher2]

Just to let each of you know ...
If you receive an email from a former member of this group
(bikrpreacher)... SHE is sending an email under the name of Richard
Bartholomew, warning people of something or other.

Please note that Ms. Chris Bartholomew has been bashing PA on various
sites and evidently thinks she's so clever that nobody knows.

Just a warning for you not to bother to respond to her email.

Did that come from Moe-randa, who's a member of that group if it's the one I'm thinking of? They do love the "B" word -- bashing -- don't they? I'm in love with the "R" word myself -- resonate.

Sherry

[kelblend]

Glad I wasn't as I'm sure the article would have been much more publisher slanted. As it was, PA never really commented on the content of my book at all.

I'm sorry if I seem to be going on and on about all this. This is just the first time I've been able to actually say it somewhere. I see a new point someone makes and it just irritates me all over again.



My book was printed, not published on merit.

[vstrauss]

Argh. Talk about making your eyes bleed. I just remembered why I never visit Slashdot.

- Victoria

[bikrpreacher]

Well, I have to go to bed now, I have to go to work in 3 hours and I've been at it all day. James is right, and I am up front with who I am, if they can READ, my signature is there,
it says:
Chris Bartholomew, author of,
"Child of an Alcoholic to Daughter of the King!"
"Why is Your Hand in My Pocket? and Other Sermons"
"A Life of Faith"

The letter they-whoever THEY are is talking about is this:

Hi. I am a publishamerica author with three books by this company. I am emailing authors who have been with them for at least a little over a year to try to find out what their experience has been like for their book so far. I would like to know how you feel about publishamerica, good or bad, now that you've had time away from the other authors and been out there alone for awhile. Can you please share your thoughts with me on this matter? Any information is appreciated! Thanks!
And my signature is underthis. Hiding NOTHING!

Sorry, but this is the first I've heard one complaint, funny that I should hear it on this board. Haven't seen anything on the PA board, thought that may change, however, I have gotten 41 replies from message board people today, and not one of them negative...and what have YOU done today Bard? I also tell them that I am bikrpreacher from the boards and that I've been banned, I don't know what I can do about the one who does not know how to read. I have put some messages on the guest books too, giving my gmail address. I'm not doing anything dishonest or underhanded.
This is hopefully my last post here. Funny, I have not gotten any bad emails, from PA nor any author, yet I am cut down here. When you do as much as I am doing to stop this madness...THEN complain!

CHRIS BARTHOLOMEW

[Ed Williams 3]

...I've got to tell ya'll this, maybe it will make a difference to someone out there reading this board.

Today, I was in Wetumpka, Alabama, a little community very close to Montgomery. They were having their first ever literary festival there. Fifteen authors, including myself, were invited.

The format of the event was a little unique. There were fifteen tables in the main dining room. Each author was given ten minutes at a table to talk to everyone about their book, and were allowed to go to five tables in succession. It was great to meet so many people, as the place was a complete sellout - twenty people to a table times fifteen tables, so three hundred people paid their money to be there.

After we had all "done our tables," they had another room set up to do booksignings. There were tables, and each table was equipped to handle two authors. The festival people asked if a new young author from the local area could sit with me at mine and ask questions? I told them I would be glad to sit with her and help in anyway I could.

We all filed into the room after lunch concluded to sign our books. All the tables were filled with books, as the local library had ordered them for this event. Well, all the tables were stacked up except mine. Don't get me wrong, I had plenty, but the young woman author I just mentioned had only two. I wondered what the deal was.

I found out pretty quickly - this nice young woman walked up to me, introduced herself, and right out of the gate apologized for having so few books. I then asked her who her publisher was - her answer,

"Publish America. But it's not their fault, I just didn't have enough money to buy some copies to sell here."

I felt so sorry for her. Then she asked me what I'd paid for my own books. I told her that my publisher had shipped them, and that I had paid nothing. She looked puzzled, and then said,

"Well, at least PA is not a vanity press. I didn't have to pay to get this published."

I asked her if she'd paid for her copyright. She said yes, and then asked if I had done the same. I told her that no publisher I'd ever written for had made me pay for the copyright, they all did that for me. I then told her to check out the retail price of her book, and compare against a couple of other similiarly sized volumes on display there. She did so. She walked back, looked at me, and started crying, saying, "They've taken me, haven't they Ed?"

I honestly didn't know what to say in response. I tried to comfort her, gave her this website addy, and then told her to focus her efforts on writing another book. She said that she would, and she's already emailed me this evening for some more resource referrals.

PA has to be the slimiest publisher in the world. How terribly sad for this young woman. Y'all know, seeing something like this up close really brought the terrible reality of what PA is "closer to the fire" for me.

We need to keep the heat up on these bastards, folks, I don't want to ever have to have a conversation like this one again...

[XThe NavigatorX]

Jiminy Cricket, Ed. That's the most horrible thing I've read in a long time.

[Whispering Bard]

and what have YOU done today Bard?

Nothing I feel the need to shout from the rooftops, Chris.

I merely pointed out to you how your email was perceived by at least two PA authors on another board. Sending out your emails under an account with a different name seemed ill-advised. It still does. *shrugs* My opinion.

[afanofthetruth]

That's heartbreaking about the PA author. It's sad that PA is able to play off the fact that it does not cost to print the book, but it does cost to promote and market. So in the end it does cost, when it shouldn't.

Congratulations on the sell-out crowd at the festival.

[Ed Williams 3]

I am really becoming "afan"...you are da coolest!

[absolutewrite]

Ed, I'm so glad you were there for this young author. Wish I could give her a big hug right now. :(

[reph]

Starting on January 27, I've recorded the number of hits at least once a day for the following Google search:

"travis tea" "atlanta nights" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22travis+tea%22+%22atlanta+nights%22)

Using those search terms excludes links to pages about the Travis Tea Room or the song "Atlanta Nights."

Here are the results, including multiple numbers for days the count changed. Sometimes it changes more than once a day. Sometimes it declines; I don't know why.

Jan. 27: 4 hits
Jan. 28: 32
Jan. 29: 69
Jan. 30: 77
Jan. 31: 182
Feb. 01: 227
Feb. 02: 221
Feb. 03: 260
Feb. 04: 270
later....: 107
Feb. 05: 128
later....: 158
later....: 369
Feb. 06: 154
later....: 399

[Sher2]

I asked her if she'd paid for her copyright. She said yes, and then asked if I had done the same. I told her that no publisher I'd ever written for had made me pay for the copyright, they all did that for me. I then told her to check out the retail price of her book, and compare against a couple of other similiarly sized volumes on display there. She did so. She walked back, looked at me, and started crying, saying, "They've taken me, haven't they Ed?"

That's one of the saddest stories I've heard yet. The fact that she had her "awakening" in a public venue makes me want to just start bawling in sympathy. PA, why don't you stick THAT up on your ridiculous "Testimonials" page and see who salutes?

Sherry

[James D Macdonald]

208 sold, $235.46 in royalties. 38839 hits to the lulu.com page, Lulu rank: 26. <a href="http://www.lulu.com/commerce/addreg.php?fBuyContent=102550">
<img src="http://www.lulu.com/themes/common/images/icons/buynow_grey.gif" border="0" alt="Buy Atlanta Nights at Lulu!">
</a>

<HR>

That poor young lady, Ed. Y'know, though, I think that sooner or later, all the PA writers who want to be writers (not the ones who want to play writer, the ones who just want a copy or two to hold, or the ones who are using PA as a printer), come to that realization.

I think the results that Chris is finding support that. (And Chris -- don't be surprised that the people who haven't yet heard the penny drop have heard of you. And yes, they will say cruel, cutting, untrue things. If those things are quoted back here, well... you know.)


<HR>

[UPDATE]

Travis and Atlantic Nights made <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Nights" target="_new">Wikipedia</a>!

[ASIDE]

A correspondent points me to <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/7680.htm" target="_new">this thread</a>. Looks to me like the author's in the Whistling Past The Graveyard stage. Who'll bet that she's over here in six months?

[ByGrace]

I have to put in my two cents, for what it is worth, regarding authors published with this company. I think it is wrong to assume that PA authors only read each others' books. Perhaps those over on the PA boards have done this, but it doesn't mean that all 11,000 authors have read each others books.

It's the company we do not like, folks. Let's be supportive of the authors. Let's not assume that 'PA authors' only read books from that company. Some of them are very talented writers. We need to encouraged to move forward with their careers and not give up.

[DaveKuzminski]

Her experience is a lot like some of the emails I receive regularly from PA authors. I hope that explains why I fight so aggressively when someone starts repeating those false PA claims in forums like this. I don't want to see more folks like her be victimized.

On a lighter note, here are some thieves who were caught in the act in Frederick, Maryland. www.vinland.com/Birdstory.html (http://www.vinland.com/Birdstory.html)

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

On a lighter note, here are some thieves who were caught in the act in Frederick, Maryland.
www.vinland.com/Birdstory.htmlBonus! Snopes even says it's true! (http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/carwash.asp) Except it was actually in Fredericksburg, Virginia, and the claim of $4000 on the roof was a little bit of hyperbole. ;)

(Oh, come on, with a story that good you know someone's gonna check Snopes just in case... :) )

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

I have to put in my two cents, for what it is worth, regarding authors published with this company. I think it is wrong to assume that PA authors only read each others' books. Perhaps those over on the PA boards have done this, but it doesn't mean that all 11,000 authors have read each others books.If you're referring to PixelFish's and Uncle Jim's exchange here, (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=209.t opic&start=7061&stop=7080) I think the point was that PA may be trying to boost sales by encouraging authors to read and review each other's books, but that strategy was doomed to failure because for the most part PA authors have the same reading habits of everyone else. The PA forums could tentatively be said to show a pattern of "review circles" (where everyone in the circle reads each other's books), but it certainly doesn't seem universal even for the PA forums, which are themselves only perhaps a 1% slice of PA authorship (assuming 11,000 authors and 100 active forum members).

[XThe NavigatorX]

Hey, I just saw the list of AL authors. Robin Hobb wrote chapter 27! That's awesome.

When Dave Barry wrote about the evilness of Poetry.com, he suggested people send in poems with the line "The dog ate mother's toes" and sign their names "freemont." Once poetry.com figured it out, they posted this hilarious response. (http://www.poetry.com/freemont/freemont.html) I wouldn't be surprised if PA pulled something similar. I could just see it now. "Famed Science Fiction and Fantasy authors submit colloboration for approval."

[Zazopolis]

I wouldn't be surprised if PA pulled something similar.

I believe you assume a sense of humor where there appears to be none.

Never happen.

[DaveKuzminski]

I doubt if PA has that much of a sense of humor. Still, I'd like to see them post the chapters to Atlanta Nights as a kind of homage to AN's writers. ;)

[XThe NavigatorX]

Yeah, but poetry.com wasn't doing it to be funny. It was all spin control. It was unintentionally funny, like Queensryche's last album.

[James D Macdonald]

Which is the vanity press?

<a href="http://www.authorhouse.com/ContactUs/FreePublishingGuide.aspx" target="_new">Authorhouse</a>

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm" target="_new">PublishAmerica</a>

Compare and contrast.

Answer: !era htob yehT

[Zazopolis]

It was unintentionally funny, like Queensryche's last album.

Alright, I'll agree based solely on "I Don't Believe in Love" coming on my PC juker as I read the comment.

Creepy.

"Sure God's all powerful, but does he have lips? Whoaaaa."

[bikrpreacher]

James and Dave, you have mail.
Can't stay long, would like to say thanks for the mails, and here I am.
Ed, sad story, but at least there is another one enlightened.
I hope not to see myself on the PA boards, but it's a possibility. Some people are afraid of a threat...they just piss me off. I'm not hiding, so if someone comes a knocking, well, don't say you weren't warned that I have an exteremly large family of strong guys, not to mention the big dog...

[keltora]

*I doubt if PA has that much of a sense of humor. Still, I'd like to see them post the chapters to Atlanta Nights as a kind of homage to AN's writers. *

I have this sudden image of a scene from MEN IN BLACK.

"We of Publish America do not have a sense of humor of which we are aware.":rollin

Laura J. Underwood

[DeePower]

The thread is still on the PA board but the url does't go anywhere.
www.publishamerica.com/paulaspanrebuttal (http://www.publishamerica.com/paulaspanrebuttal)

Wonder why PA removed the rebuttal?

Dee

[DeePower]

Very curious.

Dee

[Sher2]

The thread is still on the PA board but the url does't go anywhere.
www.publishamerica.com/paulaspanrebuttal

Wonder why PA removed the rebuttal?

Do you suppose they might have gotten bitten in the butt by a legal eagle?

Sherry

[keltora]

I guess when you start making national news in major papers, it gets harder and harder to hold up your end of a rebuttal. ;)

Laura J. Underwood (a Little Bit of Travis Tea)

[Savannah Blue]

<<Wonder why PA removed the rebuttal?>>

Maybe someone over there finally grew a brain? :eek

SB

[LawShark]

As Jim pointed out a few messages above, PA and AuthorHouse are both vanity presses. So are XLibris and iUniverse. So are Dorrance, and Rutledge, and American Book, and… well, you get the idea.

How can you tell? By applying Lawshark's two-part <s>Juicy Chum</s> test.
<ul>
<li>Who has legal title to the books as the first copy comes off the press? If the author has legal title, we're dealing with self-publishing, and don't have to finish the test. "Legal title" means who would own it if put in front of a court; of course the printer has possession, and may even have a lien if all printing costs have not yet been paid.</li>
<li>What is the guaranteed direction of capital flow as that first copy comes off the press, including the responsibilities of publishing (such as paying the cover artist, the printer, the copyright registration fee, etc.)? If the direction of capital flow is toward the author, we're dealing with a commercial publishing arrangement; if not, we're dealing with vanity publishing. Note also that this excludes orders for returnable books!</li>
</ul>
The second part of the test should remind you of Yog's Law: Money Flows Toward the Author. I put it in highfalutin' legalese just for fun. And for Judge [name withheld]'s benefit.

[James D Macdonald]

There are about 15,000 stores in the USA that carry new books. 8,000 of them are bookstores.

A commercially published book can expect to be stocked in 3,000 of them.

Source: Book Institute Study Group

[Kate St Amour]

The rebuttal to the AP article is gone too. All that remains on that page is a small blurb encouraging folks to read it. Note the changes at:
www.publishamerica.com/NationalNews/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/NationalNews/index.htm)

[bikrpreacher]

Well, it seems to me that they are hopeful that this is the end of the articles, and pretty soon, I'm sure that they will pull that entire thing. They are hopeful that it's old news now.
James, that's one book in 3,000 stores, oh, you mean not just one local bookstore? Goodness. Man. I mean, PA is such a rip.
The boards over there are very quiet, many are commenting on that. I honestly think the end is approaching. I want to thank everyone on this board for being here for everyone else, it's made all the difference in the world, knowing that we are not alone.

Chris

[afanofthetruth]

I want to thank everyone on this board for being here for everyone else, it's made all the difference in the world, knowing that we are not alone.
-------------------------------------------------------

Chris can I just say thank you? I feel that same way about the people here making a difference! We've only just started in our writing careers, so we are far from alone - and now without PA we have a chance. Good to see ya! And I'm staying off the PA boards I couldn't take anyother second of that B/S..lol..

;)

[FM St George]

the word is getting out there, slowly but surely.

the amount of press is now overwhelming, and the "Atlanta Nights" debacle is cold hard proof that PublishAmerica is anything BUT a "traditional publishing company".

this time it's not just a small article in a backwoods newspaper with one whiny author. Now it's international press with a variety of sources, interviews and newspapers with good, solid reputations.

there may be some who will hold fast to their "Grand Conspiracy" theory, but I think of the number of potential victims who have walked away thanks to these articles and it's all Good.

PublishAmerica may have some authors in their clutches, but that number is sure to dwindle as time goes on - bad press from reliable sources is hard to shake and now the word is spreading...

hey, Meiners? Cloppers? Better start liquidating your assets and planning to scoot out of town - it's royalty month and if you screw it up (again) I think you may have a lot more angry authors on your hands than you ever imagined...

;)

[afanofthetruth]

No you're the bomb! :rollin

[snarzler]

Rebuttal isn't just for the Larry, Curly and Moeranda:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/7680.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/7680.htm)

And just where did HB get this advice from?

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/7675.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/7675.htm)

I shouldn't read these things before supper.

Andrea 0]

[DaveKuzminski]

If anyone needs a copy, let me know. I've got one that I'll share.

[PixelFish]

.................................................. ..........

Quote:I have to put in my two cents, for what it is worth, regarding authors published with this company. I think it is wrong to assume that PA authors only read each others' books. Perhaps those over on the PA boards have done this, but it doesn't mean that all 11,000 authors have read each others books.

If you're referring to PixelFish's and Uncle Jim's exchange here, I think the point was that PA may be trying to boost sales by encouraging authors to read and review each other's books, but that strategy was doomed to failure because for the most part PA authors have the same reading habits of everyone else. The PA forums could tentatively be said to show a pattern of "review circles" (where everyone in the circle reads each other's books), but it certainly doesn't seem universal even for the PA forums, which are themselves only perhaps a 1% slice of PA authorship (assuming 11,000 authors and 100 active forum members).

.................................................. .........

Nichole is correct. I wasn't trying to say that PA authors only read each other--just that since lots of PA authors try to sell to each other, PA could place those sales to other PA authors in the "not sold to author" category.

Uncle Jim probably has the right of it though--PA people probably buy the majority of their books through normal publishing-to-reader channels.

[Sher2]

Rebuttal isn't just for the Larry, Curly and Moeranda:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/7680.htm

Sheesh! There are some heads wedged in pretty tightly. Can somebody call a proctologist?

Sherry

[bikrpreacher]

sher2 :rollin
(Ah, excuse me please, I'm not supposed to have a sense of humor, but someone could croak reading some of these funny posts, especially from sher2).

[James D Macdonald]

The claim has been made that there are 50,000 brick-and-mortar bookstores in the United States.

This isn't true. There are actually 8,000.

Where the claim probably came from: PublishAmerica's "statistic" that there are 56,000 publishers in the United States.

That isn't true either.

Actually, there are 20,000 publishers in the United States and Canada combined (and that includes everything down to printshops that put out local cookbooks, and those fishery bureaus that put out the reports cited above).

So where did the 56,000 come from?

There are 53,000 publishing-related businesses in the United States.

That includes the publishers, the printers, the papermills, the distributors, the bookstores, the advertising agencies, the drivers, the repairmen, the guys who make the wire-rack spinners, and so on.

Sources: Publisher's Directory and US Department of Labor.

[bikrpreacher]

LOL, just with the 11,000 happy authors we know they inflate everything, but that is really something. See, this is what I get for just taking someone's word for something, for not looking anything up. I appreciate the facts.

[kelblend]

I just read the article by Hillel Italie and am astounded at some of this!

Clopper said that PublishAmerica gives each author a free Web site and sends informational flyers to media and personal contacts provided by authors. He said that writers are encouraged to promote their own books and that PublishAmerica plans to start a full-time marketing department.



I was never asked for any media contacts. I know a PA author who is having her third book done and she has not been asked that once either.

By the way, which PA author has ever gotten $1000 advance? Any clues?

[James D Macdonald]

Another fact:

The average sales per book per store per year is 2.5 copies.

Source: Author's Guild.

So:

We know that the average trade paperback will be in 3,000 stores.
We know that the average trade paperback costs $15.00.
We know that the average trade paperback sells 2.5 copies/year/store.
We know that the average royalty on a trade paperback is 10%.

We know that publishers try to set their advances equal to the expected royalties over a book's lifetime.

We know that the average advance for a midlist novel is $10,000.

3,000 stores * 2.5 copies = 7,500 sold. 7,500 * $15.00 = $112,500. 112,500 * 10% = $11,250.


It all checks out.

Yes, some books will sell more, some will sell less. Some will be in more stores, some in fewer.

Common advances for first novels are in the $2,000-$5,000 range. That should give you an idea of how many stores they'll be in: between 500 and 1,000 stores.

Again, some are in more, some are in less. But that's the average. That's the sort of distribution you can expect.

When you go with a legitimate publisher.


<HR>

[UPDATE]

By the way, which PA author has ever gotten $1000 advance? Any clues?

No idea. Assuming he's telling the truth, of course ... my guess would be either Jamie Farr or Robert "Ooops! Wrong Guy!" Bly.

[Ed Williams 3]

It's Larry, Curlem, and Moe-randa, the New Three Stooges!
Playing at a traditional theatre near you! Sound resonation and "don't take that tone technology" sponsored by Jiffy Lube!

:p :evil

[RaechelHendersonMoon]

James, could I quote those figures on another forum? A small press topic at the Rumor Mill (http://www.rumormill.org) has opened up with a question about advances and I think your post perfectly illustrates how advances are supposed to work.
-----------------------

[James D Macdonald]

Go ahead, Rachel.

As to the article michellet wrote, I'll leave someone else to do the line-by-line on it.

(As a poet, Michelle is pretty much stuck with self-publishing if she wants to see her work in book form. But did she have to pick such an expensive printer?)

[Sher2]

I was never asked for any media contacts. I know a PA author who is having her third book done and she has not been asked that once either.

By the way, which PA author has ever gotten $1000 advance? Any clues?

Kelblend, I was asked for the name of my local Books editor, but either nothing was ever sent out or the newspaper tossed it when they saw where it came from. In hindsight, this is a GOOD thing, because I'm covering my tracks with PA as fast as I can.

As for the free Web sites offered by PA, they're totally controlled by PA. I never bit into that particular poisoned apple.

I think Uncle Jim is probably right about who got the fabled $1000 advance.

Sherry

[CWGranny]

I always figured it was Jamie Farr, but I would LOVE to think it was Robert "what did you say you write again?" Bly. For them to end up with egg on their face AND to have paid $1000 to get it there -- that just makes me happy all over.

gran

[astonwest]

"For them to end up with egg on their face AND to have paid $1000 to get it there -- that just makes me happy all over."

They'd probably turn around and use the "if you don't earn out your advance, you have to pay it back" line if that was the case...I mean, they've convinced most of their authors that's how the business works...

:hat
Big Daddy West

[Whachawant]

Awesome breakdown, James! Simply fantastic.

Perhaps you could be P.A.'s accountant. I hear they're having trouble with their books!!!:rollin

[reph]

Atlanta Nights has the #2 spot in lulu's sales this week:

Sales rankings (http://www.lulu.com/themes/shop/top100.php?fResolution=week)

Number Two – exactly what its authors set out to produce.

[aka eraser]

lol reph. :)

[XThe NavigatorX]

It's also 26 on Lulu's bestselling books of all time.

[James D Macdonald]

Awesome breakdown, James! Simply fantastic.

Actually, so over-simplified that it's almost a parody of itself.

There are people whose full-time jobs is figuring out how well a particular book will do, and setting printing numbers and figuring advances accordingly. This is a highly-specialized line of work.

Books aren't bars of soap. Trying to sell them as if they were ... doesn't have happy results.

<HR>
Meanwhile, over at Lulu: 232 copies. $262.82 in royalties. 40,855 hits to the webpage. Lulu sales rank 24.
<a href="http://www.lulu.com/commerce/addreg.php?fBuyContent=102550">
<img src="http://www.lulu.com/themes/common/images/icons/buynow_ant.gif" border="0" alt="Buy Atlanta Nights at Lulu!">
</a>

[Trapped in amber]

I just found PublishAmerica's U.K. site, PublishBritannica

www.publishbritannica.co.uk/index.htm (http://www.publishbritannica.co.uk/index.htm)

With it's own author message board coming soon :( .

We want your book, not your money.
:rolleyes



I thought I'd noticed more U.K. authors associated with PA recently. The trouble is, if you google PublishBritannica, you don't find anything negative until near the end of the second page. I'm hoping they don't have much success, but I think they're tactics will work just as well here as in the U.S.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[DaveKuzminski]

I believe P&E already has that site listed and marked as not recommended based upon complaints and documentation from UK writers.

So far, what hasn't materialized yet is a PublishIcelandica site. Nor have any real complaints come in from there, so the rating on that remains neutral despite its connection to PublishAmerica. For those from PA who think that P&E automatically rates everything bad just from association, the answer is that P&E only rates businesses, including those as closely related as PI and PB to PA, as bad when we have documented proof or sufficient verifiable complaints.

[Trapped in amber]

I'm surprised PA are looking to expand abroad at all, they seem to bring in so many authors in the U.S. I suspect they're having difficulty getting everything printed within a year of the contract.
But then again, they're greedy...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

[James D Macdonald]

<BLOCKQUOTE>I was fortunate this past weekend to spend some time in the company of Michele Omran, Acquisitions Supervisor for PublishAmerica. Michele is an attractive, educated and professional spokesperson for PA. The occasion of our interaction was a national writers conference.

Over the two day conference, Michele most assuredly added more authors to the PA ranks, but perhaps more importantly, she turned back the slings and arrows being launched at PublishAmerica these days. I would have to say that most of the writers and wannabes she encountered were smitten or awed by Michele's presentation, but she sucessfully fended off the few attacks with a shield of facts about the policies of PA and the satisfaction of the PA authors that could not be refuted. It is good for PublishAmerica and us, the PA authors, to have such an articulate and knowledgeable representative for us and our publisher. </BLOCKQUOTE><a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/7536.htm" target="_new">PA is in good hands</a>

That would be Michele Omran at the Wrangling With Writing (http://www.azstarnet.com/nonprofit/ssa/conference/workshops.htm) conference, 28/29JAN05.

She was discussed back <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=209.t opic&start=4041&stop=4060" target="_new">here</a>. She's been on the job for seven months; if I'm reading her history right she's been out of college for less than a year, her degree isn't in English or any of the language arts, and she has no experience whatever in publishing.

...she sucessfully fended off the few attacks with a shield of facts about the policies of PA and the satisfaction of the PA authors that could not be refuted.

Here's my thought: Any writer or wannabee who was at a talk called "Crafting and Writing for PublishAmerica" didn't know enough about publishing to ask the right questions.

Tell you what: Personal invitation to Michele. Come over here and make your case. If it can't be refuted I promise I'll shut up.

[Ed Williams 3]

...Michele has no background at all in book publishing, looks like she left college and went straight to work for Publish America. If that's the case, it explains alot, as PA wouldn't dare hire a true industry professional, they'd either sniff out things on the front end and not take the job or quit soon after joining PA after realizing what they'd gotten into.

[James D Macdonald]

I imagine that turnover in the editorial ranks is pretty high.

There they are, expected to "edit" two or three books a week. That's a grueling pace. They start out fresh and eager, full of enthusiasm, doing their best to actually edit -- that's where we get the stories of authors who are happy with their editors, editors who have gone through and made the book better.

Soon enough, the editors burn out. The pace alone would do it, if the fact that mostly they're working on hopeless books hadn't done it first. That's when they just say "Screw it," and run the spelling-and-grammar checker over 'em.

That's where we get the actual examples we've seen of books that have spell-checker induced errors. I could show you some real horrors.

I feel sorry for those kids stuffed into the PA offices. I do. If they ever want to go into real publishing they'll have a lot of bad habits to unlearn.

[Wailing Bainsidhe]

I feel sorry for them, too. I've been in a situation like that: one tries to do one's job properly and with integrity, but management doesn't care about quality, only quantity, and one is forced to watch as co-workers who do their job quickly but poorly are advanced over them. After a while, as Jim said, you just say "the heck with it" and go the quick and sloppy way, because who wants to beat their head against a brick wall all day?

--Maggie

[HapiSofi]

LawShark said:<blockquote><hr>E-mails are much more admissible as evidence than has been implied. All it takes to get one admitted is one of:<blockquote>Demonstration that the e-mail is part of a system of records kept in the ordinary course of business (Fed. R. Evid. 803(5), 803(6), 1002)

A denial of the content or fact of sending of the e-mail by an adverse party (Fed. R. Evid. 607, 613)

Offer as evidence for something other than the content of the e-mail, such as that an individual in fact used e-mail (e.g., Fed. R. Evid. 406, 803(5))

A statement in the e-mail (or header) when found on a party's own system that is against that party's interest (Fed. R. Evid. 613, 803(5), 803(6))

As a writing used by a witness to refresh his/her recollection (Fed. R. Evid. 612)

As part of the foundation for an expert witness's opinion (Fed. R. Evid. 702, 703, 705)</blockquote>I'm mentioning this primarily so that people won't become overconfident that their own e-mail archives can't be used against them, or e-mails sent to others (such as that one accusing a principal of PA with unlawful activities with an underage ruminant, which could be admitted to show prejudice and hostility if those are relevant to either the case or the credibility of a witness). The possibility of forgery and alteration goes to the weight of the evidence unless the party opposing entry shows that it is more probable than not that the evidence offered differs from the original. In other words, the e-mails still come in, but the factfinder (jury or, in a bench trial, judge) can consider the possibility of alteration when deciding what the evidence really means.<hr></blockquote>I know you've gone to a lot of effort to distill this; likewise that it's not possible to put it into simple vernacular language. Still, I'd find it very helpful if you'd expand the thing a bit. If you have the time, and the inclination to do so, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[TuppGal]

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../11615.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11615.htm)

one PA got so frustrated she threw her author copies away.

tina

[matrix83]

Is it old news that there is a travis tea posting lots of less-than-stellar reviews of PA books on amazon.com??

[DaveKuzminski]

The only folks that those poor ratings benefit are those operating PA since they don't want to fulfill orders through anything but their own 1-800 ordering system so that they can sell in bulk. For that reason, I suspect that the Amazon slammer is trying to benefit twice from the same action because PA critics are blamed for the slams.

I'll let others reach their own conclusions as to the slammer's true identity.

[HapiSofi]

Winniemitzandme said:<blockquote><hr>Okay, when PA send one of their authors a release form but has the 'gag order' attached where the author is forbidden to show any part, copy of the release form to any publisher, which not only ties the authors hands from trying to get his/her book placed with a commercial publisher, but this author can't even try to get an agent to read his/her ms.

Now, my question is this. Cannot this be seen as Publish America doing a form of 'blackballing' this author? I think if it were pushed the Courts would be on the authors side and see that PA is using a form of blackballing the authors work.<hr></blockquote>The word is "reversion." And no, it's not blackballing.

I'll say what a lawyer can't: Those supposed "reversion" letters PublishAmerica sends are nothing of the sort. Let me add that in my opinion, they're acts of deliberate sabotage.

The entire point of a reversion letter is that you show it to other people: potential agents, the legal department at your new publishing house, the IRS, outfits looking to option movie rights, et cetera. A reversion letter that contains a non-disclosure agreement is a contradiction in terms. I'd call it a joke, if PublishAmerica's intent weren't so obviously malign.

Why do they do this? To repeat a point I made earlier, Meiners and Clopper and Prather are all failed writers. A proper reversion letter would make it possible for a legitimate publisher to buy a book from an author previously published by PA.

The problem is that no legit publisher has ever wanted to publish a book written by Meiners, or Clopper, or Prather. I believe they bitterly resent this, and would rather sabotage PA's departing authors than see them succeed where they themselves have failed.

No reputable publisher builds NDAs into their reversion letters. I don't even know of any disreputable publishers that do it, aside from PA. There's no point to it. If you let a book go, you let it go.

[snarzler]

I really think its Travis's identical evil twin cousin Madge S.
The spelling and grammar are very similiar. *eerieshudder*

Andrea 0]

[JohannaJ7]

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../11638.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11638.htm)

I have signed up with a few others, however, which appear to be excellent. So far, the best is www.BooksandAuthors.net, run by John Weaver. (no relation to Frank!) Frank's on that one, too. (~$250) I also signed up for the BooksToFilm catalog ($250), and the prwebs press release and promo package (~80). Now, I'm not loaded, I'm charging all this and hoping to make it back in a few years when the sales start rolling in! (fingers crossed!)
Ouch.

[AnneMarble]

Is it old news that there is a travis tea posting lots of less-than-stellar reviews of PA books on amazon.com??

Doesn't Amazon now have a way of displaying the real names of the authors on reviews? I thought they were doing that for all reviews now. Is there a way the affected authors can make them cough up the info?

[keltora]

How Interesting. I just popped over to see. I only found 29 PA books listed on Amazon, and looked at the starred reviews and saw nothing of ole Travis doing any such a thing.

Laura J. Underwood (a Little Bit of Travis Tea...)

[underthecity]

The mysterious "travis tea" specializes in only "reviewing" particular books (http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A2CIFEZ2MHUM0J/ref=cm_aya_rev_all/102-5308783-2565706) on amazon.

Gotta wonder who he is.

utc

[Zazopolis]

He's kind of funny, albeit, lobbing spelling glass houses at people wearing poor grammar stones. "about as limp as they come..."
I find that fitting.

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
Crispy by H. B. Marcus
Edition: Paperback
Price: $19.95
Availability: Usually ships in 24 hours
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

Doing time , February 7, 2005
Friend of mune came by to vist over the weekend and gave me a bunch of books to read .Being thats all I get to do 23 hours a day and one of the 1st ones I read was this here book called "crispy" I heard a fella one time say"only write what you know about .then the stories you tell will sound true" in one of the english classs they have us take here .This guy should have took that class .Having lived around killers,low lifers,and bums I could tell he has not the story is about as limp as they come not very funny and pretty boring to boot none of these so called tough cops and killers would last a day in my world .also the book is poorly edited and a lot of miss spellings to so if its like here where you hours flow by really slow look at the walss or filp coins your have more fub then reading this here book

[keltora]

Veddy Interesting Indeed because when I asked Amazon's special search for PA titles, none of those appeared.

OTOH, I don't think The Real Mr. Tea would ever use small case letters were he to stoop to such practices. After all, he did manage to use caps where necessary in his own writing. (and Occasionally where not... *g*)

I suspect the PA Cheerleaders need to look in their own ranks to find this defiler of their precious tomes.

Laura J. Underwood (a Little Bit of Travis Tea)

[James D Macdonald]

...I only found 29 PA books listed on Amazon...

That's because you searched for "Publish America" (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25187-2005Jan20.html) (two words), not "PublishAmerica" (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25187-2005Jan20.html) (one word).

Guys, I did not have anything whatever to do with posting these false "reviews." They are pure BS; they play directly into Willem, Larry, and Miranda's hands.

[keltora]

Ah yes, forgot the Combo Version of their company name.

As I said, I suspect its a PA person doing this in the hopes of discrediting the Real Mr. Tea.

Sorry, children, but it won't work.

Laura J. Underwood (a Little Bit of Travis Tea--goes a Long Way to popping your Eye of Argon out...)

[underthecity]

Guys, I did not have anything whatever to do with posting these false "reviews." They are pure BS; they play directly into Willem, Larry, and Miranda's hands.

Uh, Jim, I'm sure nobody here thought it was you!:b

That is not a problem here.

It will be interesting to see how they debate this on the PA Boards, especially when they discuss who Travis Tea is and start googling his name. Will PA allow Atlanta Nights to be mentioned over there? Or is this what the Three PA Stooges are trying for?

While we're on the subject of Atlanta Nights, would it be all right to open up a thread devoted to just AN, like on the Writing Novels forum? I'm sure people, other than myself, have questions about this innovative piece of literature.

utc

[RealityChuck]

As I said, I suspect its a PA person doing this in the hopes of discrediting the Real Mr. Tea.I pity the fool who messes with Mr. Tea.

[Ed Williams 3]

...if you go by the grammar and spelling abilities of the Travis Tea imposter, the odds are pretty strong that he or she has some tie to Publish America...

P.S. LOL Reality Check, that's got to be the line of the day...

"Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem," the New Three Stooges!

[vstrauss]

I wonder if whoever it is isn't just using Atlanta Nights to get some whacks in at some of PA's more strident cheerleaders.

- Victoria

[XThe NavigatorX]

It's been a busy day over at useless-knowledge.com regarding PA. That PA author posted her article about PA here. (http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/feb/article089.html), which resulted in three responses here (http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/feb/article101.html), here (http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/feb/article103.html) and here (http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/feb/article107.html).

All four of these articles appear in news searches, mixed in with legit news sources.

[AnneMarble]

It's been a busy day over at useless-knowledge.com regarding PA. That PA author posted her article about PA here., which resulted in three responses here, here and here.

Hmmm. The way the second response brought politics into the end of the article made me think of a poster I'd seen before, on another board. The style will probably be familiar to many of you as well. :)

[James D Macdonald]

I was amused, when I followed Ms. True's links, to find that a) PA's big response to the AP article has been removed, leaving only a shadow of itself, and b) whoever wrote that response (Larry?) isn't very good with English:

<BLOCKQUOTE>It is amazing, and very gratifying to our staff, to see so many people's lives effected in such a positive way.</BLOCKQUOTE> [Emphasis mine.]

effect
Function: transitive verb
1 : to cause to come into being
2 a : to bring about often by surmounting obstacles : ACCOMPLISH [effect a settlement of a dispute] b : to put into operation [the duty of the legislature to effect the will of the citizens]
synonym see PERFORM


affect
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from affectus, past participle of afficere
: to produce an effect upon: as a : to produce a material influence upon or alteration in [paralysis affected his limbs] b : to act upon (as a person or a person's mind or feelings) so as to effect a response : INFLUENCE

Yep, Larry, that should have been "...affected in such a positive way."

Don't you guys have any editors over there?

[DaveKuzminski]

Larry, maybe that word misuse is just one reason why you weren't published before. Want to send me a copy of your manuscript to review? I promise I won't make it any worse.

[WindwardMark]

I pity the fool who messes with Mr. Tea.

You've been waiting days to say that, haven't you?

[bikrpreacher]

I really enjoyed the useless knowledge articles.
The authors who are getting the reviews by someone claiming to be someone who doesn't exist, well, they could figure it out and have Amazon help, but they either don't know how, or they don't want to know.
I do know how, and personally I would love to know who, so, please, please, fake TT, my book name on Amazon is
"Child of an Alcoholic to Daughter of the King!" come on, make my day, put a review on my book, I'll just let it stay there for a little while, I promise...

[RealityChuck]

You've been waiting days to say that, haven't you? To be fair, I got it the same way that Paul Muni survived at the end of "I Was a Fugitive from a Chain Gang."

But I have no shame. :)

[bikrpreacher]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...l/2052.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2052.htm)

Message:
Hi guys howa re you all doing? I received my 2 copies of my book, they are beautiful and I am really excited. I want tto know who exactly do I send my corrections to. Is it authorsupport@publishamerica.com? I found a lot or mistakes on this last draft copy. Thanks I wait for you all to reply.

Hate to be here when she finds out that those are not draft copies, her book will NOT be corrected, from what I am hearing, they might SAY they will correct it, but they won't.
Interesting that they go on the boards and ask these questions, and how no one ever calls PA. always wondered that, unless she is just wanting everyone to know that there are a lot of mistakes in her book.

[bikrpreacher]

Larry, maybe that word misuse is just one reason why you weren't published before. Want to send me a copy of your manuscript to review? I promise I won't make it any worse.


My goodness, that made me laugh, I shudder to think if I would have sent MY manuscript to any of you over here...talk about a bubble bursting. I might think it's good, but I really think you'd have had to throw it out. I don't see Larry doing that.:lol

[DeePower]

You might want to add LA Times to staff writer. BTW posts are still up.

Dee

[FM St George]

dunno about the "face value" comment... I mean, it's an actual ARTICLE and all...

not like the tripe PublishAmerica makes up to put on their webpages...

wonder if HB's still working on that great Holiday Inn signing - let's all sit in the conference room and buy each other's books!

yee-haw!

:rollin

[bikrpreacher]

And I wonder why they are talking about that signing? Been awhile since anyone's posted on that one. Maybe they already know it's not gonna work out.

[afanofthetruth]

Dang, I missed something! :p

So, new articles are up?

[TuppGal]

as of 6:50 the posts (all but three of them anyhow) are STILL up. One forum one was wiped but the others are still a-going. 1 1/2 hours, a new record for my posts without a wipe and ban...

t

[bikrpreacher]

As we were already told about this, I don't know why you feel I needed to be told twice.


((Edited to add: Yes, please do. Or the Take it Outside board. Or private messages. Don't mean to disrupt any fun, but I'm deleting the off-topic stuff. This topic needs to stay focused.))

[Whispering Bard]

I have signed up with a few others, however, which appear to be excellent. So far, the best is www.BooksandAuthors.net, run by John Weaver. (no relation to Frank!) Frank's on that one, too. (~$250) I also signed up for the BooksToFilm catalog ($250), and the prwebs press release and promo package (~80). Now, I'm not loaded, I'm charging all this and hoping to make it back in a few years when the sales start rolling in! (fingers crossed!)

How sad will that be when they realize the bills for promoting their books are piling up and the sales won't even come close to covering them?

[James D Macdonald]

251 copies sold (halfway to Independence Books!). $284.48 in royalties. 41,939 hits to the Lulu web page. Lulu sales rank 23. Free shipping when you order over $25! (It'd take you three copies to cost that much.)

<a href="http://www.lulu.com/commerce/addreg.php?fBuyContent=102550">
<img src="http://www.lulu.com/themes/common/images/icons/buynow_barcode.gif" border="0" alt="Buy my stuff at Lulu!">
</a>

Get the <a href="http://www.cafepress.com/atlanta_nights" target="_new">tee shirt</a>! (Perfect for washing the car. (Not for 'wearing while washing the car,' for 'washing the car.'))

Visit <a href="http://www.TravisTea.com" target="_new">Travis Tea's</a> official web page!

[FM St George]

How sad will that be when they realize the bills for promoting their books are piling up and the sales won't even come close to covering them?

aye, and there's the rub - there's ALWAYS PA authors like this who announce how much money they're dumping into promotion before their book comes out and then they quietly disappear once that first royalty check appears. While everyone says that they're not in it for the money, I doubt anyone's in writing to re-mortgage the house and go into bankruptcy!

I daresay within the next month when the checks come out that there'll first be a lot of crying on the PA boards, and then a lot of quiet departures as PublishAmerica turns away another slew of authors who just found out the true cost of being a PA author...

:(

[LawShark]

HapiSofi, I'm going to have to decline to expand on the explanation of how e-mail becomes admissible evidence. That distillation is about as far as I can go outside of a formal law-school evidence course without instead offering legal advice for a particular situation—and that's something that can't be done on a public board like this (and shouldn't even be done in e-mail!).

There is a reason that Evidence takes up as much time in the law curriculum as torts, or basic constitutional law, or remedies, or income taxation, or corporations and business organizations: It needs it. The one thing I can say is that "evidence" is not the same thing as "proof." Proof comes from sufficiency of evidence; that almost always means it takes more than one piece of evidence, excepting perhaps a confession.

[bikrpreacher]

Wasn't Atlanta Nights on Amazon yesterday? Weren't you all talking about the bad reviews someone made? Why isn't it on Amazon now, I mean the book, the reviews are still there?

[Medievalist]

<cite>Atlanta Nights</cite> has not yet been listed on Amazon. The discussion was about someone, unaffiliated with AW or <cite>Atlanta Nights</cite>, using the name "Travis Tea" to post false, poorly written, malcious reviews of certain PublishAmerica books listed by Amazon.

What's interesting is that the reviews are stylistically similar to work from a particular individual doing much the same thing, in the past.

I've sent email to two of the authors about how to have Amazon remove the reviews.

[James D Macdonald]

Wasn't Atlanta Nights on Amazon yesterday?

No, it takes four-six weeks after an ISBN is issued to see it in the on-line merchants.

What was on Amazon yesterday was some person, signing as "Travis Tea" and mentioning Atlanta Nights, posting bashing "reviews" on various PA books.

I assume it's a PA booster trying to poison the "Travis Tea" name.

[bikrpreacher]

Thanks, that makes more sense, the reviews disappeared before my eyes, they are gone now, but I think I might know who's doing it. There were some hints.

Awhile back, we were talking about PA's bestseller. Does anyone have a page or something that I can see that says how many books he has sold?
Chris
Still getting unhappy author emails, just saying...

[CaoPaux]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...l/2052.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2052.htm)

Message:
Hi guys howa re you all doing? I received my 2 copies of my book, they are beautiful and I am really excited. I want tto know who exactly do I send my corrections to. Is it authorsupport@publishamerica.com? I found a lot or mistakes on this last draft copy. Thanks I wait for you all to reply.

-----
Ow, ow, ow.

[bikrpreacher]

I'm going to go ahead and tell ya, I heard from one new author, (most I hear from lately are old), got their books, found mistakes, was very upset, called PA-and was told they will not fix them because they do not affect the sale or the marketing of the book...then they got the news about Atlanta Nights...very depressing indeed.
(James, I cannot email, I'm over the limit again! In regards to your mail, I already did that, and recieved a reply...they are NOT happy.

[kelblend]

That's what always bothered me. If you had a question, it was quicker to go to the forums and ask them. Granted, you may not get an answer or even a correct one, but it was still quicker. If I'm in business with you, I expect open communication with you. I also expect fairly quick responses.

There, I always felt like a dog chasing its tail, for lack of a better phrase. Never could quite get what I was seeking. Still drives me crazy just thinking about it.

[Ed Williams 3]

is listed right here at Article City:

www.articlecity.com/artic..._393.shtml (http://www.articlecity.com/articles/writing/article_393.shtml)

I figured that after I ran it in the papers which carry my column that it might be nice to offer it gratis to any and all that want to reprint it somewhere...ain't I the sweetest thing?

:D :evil :)

[Zazopolis]

I don't see how anyone can really have much sympathy for people who chose PA and then expected the book to be edited. I think PA states quite clearly in contract that it's up to the author to do it. Now naturally, you'd think a publisher would give a rat's behind that the work they are publishing at least meets ethical standards. But look who we're talking about (http://www.geocities.com/candide_/twobeers.wav)?



Regardless, I find it more humorous than anything that someone would wait until they have author's copies in hand while still trying to make changes. That's right up there with a manuscript I was once sent by a PA author. I read the first page, gawked, then emailed, "Holy first person overload! There are 37 I's on the first page alone." Now it's out there in that condition and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

[kelblend]

Thanks for the article. The excerpts had me laughing out loud!

[PixelFish]

James, I cannot email, I'm over the limit again! In regards to your mail, I already did that, and recieved a reply...they are NOT happy..


--------------

Bkr: Have you tried signing up for Gmail, Google's webmail? They have insane account size limits, and handy labels for organising your email.

[lindylou45]

Great article, Ed.

Linda

[reph]

If you buy ezSupporter, $12 a year, you get a bigger mailbox and other perks.

[keltora]

I do pity this child...when she finds out those ARE her author's copies...

Laura J. Underwood (My Travis Tea can poke out your Eye of Argon any day...)

[AnneMarble]

According to Amazon, "Customers who bought the items in your history also bought..."

Crispy
by H. B. Marcus

Wow. At first I thought that might have happened because I was browsing Phantom of the Opera "phan fic," and several of those were published by iUniverse or PA. But it must be because I looked at the reviews for "Crab Cake & Pepper."

By the way, the negative review by the fake Travis Tea (as opposed to the real fake Travis Tea) has been taken down. That was fast! Maybe Frank Weaver or one of the other affected authors contacted Amazon?

[bikrpreacher]

Now, I find myself between a rock and a hard place. I want to answer, can't email, and am not supposed to talk about anything other than publishamerica on this thread.
I'm not being smart, just stating a fact. Here are some things I've wanted to say in regard to other posts today...
Ed, so glad you said that, as my 18 year old son has wanted to put your article up on his site...
I have gmail, but meant this inbox here.
I want to buy into it to get the larger email, however, no one has said when we are moving, and I don't want to spend the money and a week later, go somewhere else...
Zaz, you are absolutely right about the contract, are you referring to #2? The most misleading on the contract is paragraph #17...my opinion. But Zaz, still, a lot of the writers over there think there is an editor working on their book!
Chris

[James D Macdonald]

First, from Michelle's article (http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/feb/article089.html):

When anyone has questions, appropriate PublishAmerica staff provide the answers.

We've just been hearing that isn't quite true -- and we've all seen the accuracy of the answers PA's staff provides when they can be bothered to answer at all. (Poor Man's Copyright, etc.)

Next, Chris -- next time you have the ability to send, drop me a note with your regular email address in it. I'll send you a gmail account. When you use that, no one will accuse you of using a false name on your emails any more.

[bikrpreacher]

I already have gmail, it's more convenient for me to use my regular email when emailing so many people. I send the emails out one at a time, (a friend of mine can get the names of all recipients, no matter how you try to do it, if he can, anyone can), now I am putting in the subject line, from bikrpreacher-Chris Bartholomew.

The PA writers who were upset about the email, they were not really upset. That was the only thing they could say about me. My name and the name of my books is at the bottom of every single message I send out, always. The name and name of books are in signature, honestly, only one person who has emailed me back has thought something different, and when I wrote to them and explained that it's at the bottom of the letter, they wrote back and said, "No, I'm not happy with PA, they lied to me."

If the only thing the writers can find fault with is that I have a husband who's name is on my emails, I'm doing pretty good.

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../11639.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11639.htm)
Message:
From reading the boards, from what I am lead to believe is that Amazon, B&N etc have 30 days or maybe it is 90 days to remit pymt. So I think royalities are based on when money is received.
If I'm wrong, I'm sure some will be by to set us straight.

Can someone tell me which is true? This person and several others say publishamerica gives time to remit payment, yet I have heard PA only sends the books with payment.
The reason I ask is that it's confusing, some people KNOW their royalty checks are not correct because they only take money up-front. If they don't do it that way, you could never really know if they money you get is right or not could you...unless you knew that the only people who bought the book bought it from PA?

[FM St George]

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../11653.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11653.htm)

hmm...

you wanna take this one, James?

:D

"Please tell me how you get registered with the Library of Congress.
I thought it was automatically done when you
copyrighted your book.
Evidently not, because P/A is not listing it inside the book - only the fact that the book is copyrighted and the year.

I'd sure like to have it there. Would certainly look more professional. Other publishers do it."

[underthecity]

And again . . . . wouldn't it make more sense to contact PA about it directly instead of asking the question on the message board? Isn't that what the publisher is there for, to support its authors and answer their questions?

HB seems to have missed the point of the question entirely, "I don't know what kind of copyright you have. . . ." No, the question was about the LOC number. She SAYS she has a copyright. The only sense he makes is that she needs to contact PA and ask the question.

I just don't get that.

utc

[James D Macdonald]

I don't know what arrangements PA has with BN.com or Amazon.com. We do know that both of those places require the customer to pony up a credit card number before the book is ordered.

I don't know what arrangements PA has with Ingram. I do know that bookstores that order through Ingram expect net 60 or net 90 payment.

We do know that bookstores (and others) who call PA or log in to the PA website are expected to pay in advance.

Using the earlier breakdown:

Average PA author has 75 books, typically $19.95

Of those:

18 are sold via the PA store for cash up front to family and friends at $16.95.

Expected royalty $24.41, and should be paid during the next royalty payment.

37 are sold directly to the author him/herself. No royalties are paid. (Except during a Special Promotion, in which case since this is a cash-up-front deal, royalties should be paid in the next royalty payment.)

5 are sold through on-line sources (BN.com, Amazon.com, others). Unknown deal -- could be 90 days. Expected royalties $11.97

15 are sold via Brick'n' Mortar bookstores. 12 of them log on to PublishAmerica.com or call PA. They're expected to pay cash up front, and so should have royalties in the very next payment: $11.49 The other 3 are through B&N, whose relationship with PA is unclear. Assuming they've got a net-90 relationship, that's $2.87 in royalties that may be delayed to the next payment.

So:

Payable immediately: $28.44
Could be delayed: $14.84

Average income to the average PA author for the average book (individual results may vary): $43.28

Or:

Take the number of sales you "know" you made (excluding books you bought yourself). Multiply by .66. That's the number of books you should expect to get paid for on the next royalty statement.

<HR>

Please tell me how you get registered with the Library of Congress.

I think she's talking about the CIP data you want to have for libraries.

The answer is: Sorry about that. Self-and-vanity published books aren't eligible.

[Zazopolis]

Those are ridiculously accurate numbers.

[Medievalist]

The official statement:

http://cip.loc.gov//cipfaq.html#demand

edited to link the URL.

[Ed Williams 3]

...and the update is - there is no update! No posts since 1/22/05....

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/7354.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/7354.htm)

:eek

[TuppGal]

You know, I have expectations of one day, some how being good enough to sign at the Jiffy Lube:)

tina

[Sher2]

You know, I have expectations of one day, some how being good enough to sign at the Jiffy Lube

Me, too! Wouldn't that just be a dream come true? And hey, maybe we could chuck our spouses and marry Jiffy Lube guys, write best-selling novels between lube jobs, and sell them right there in the Jiffy Lube at a huge profit. Gawd, I'm drooling at the dazzling prospects. Somebody stick me with a pin and wake me up, please.

Sherry

[CaoPaux]

An established author is asking a PAuthor of the same name to add an initial or something.

www.publishamerica.com/cg...l/2058.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2058.htm)

Yet another reason to Google names you want to use (even your own), or use a publisher which will check such things out for you. :\

[kelblend]

I posted on it just to see if anyone bothers to acknowledge the question. I haven't posted there in a long time, so maybe no one will even know who I am. lol Then again, I don't think anyone there knew me then.:rollin


I hate that I have to turn off my firewall to post there. >:

[FM St George]

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../11657.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11657.htm)

2/09/2005
15:49:03
Subject: Smart Publishing, Chicago

Message:
Hi,

I just received news that I am being invited by Smart Publishing to submit manuscripts to them. They invite writers twice a year to submit manuscripts. The winner of the competition wins a publishing contract at no cost to the writer. My work was spotted on Rosedog.com in the Writers Showcase.

I just thought I would share that news with you.

Regards,

Barbara O'Sullivan
The King's Quinto

Carl Baxter

2/09/2005
18:03:15
RE: Smart Publishing, Chicago


Message:
Be careful, check the fine print. Make sure you check these people out before signing anything. There are a number of scam artists preying on hopeful authors. The more you post your work on the internet, the more likely you will attract unsavory attention.

CB

[snarzler]

If there are a few people around here with email problems, drop me a line and I'll send you a gmail invite.

Andrea 0]

[afanofthetruth]

Excellent article, Ed. I'm going to add it to my PA articles page on my website. Thanks for all that you do!

Renee

[Ed Williams 3]

...I gave y'all the link to is free for anyone here to use and distribute as they see fit. Thanks for all the nice compliments, I had a great time writing it.

:D

*Before I go, Renee, thank you for being the classy lady that you are. I'm a big fan and have been for awhile!

[astonwest]

"Yet another reason to Google names you want to use (even your own), or use a publisher which will check such things out for you."

I once saw two books come out of PA with the same title, identical down to the letter...can't remember that title for the life of me at the moment...

:hat
Big Daddy West

[James D Macdonald]

I just received news that I am being invited by Smart Publishing to submit manuscripts to them. They invite writers twice a year to submit manuscripts. The winner of the competition wins a publishing contract at no cost to the writer. My work was spotted on Rosedog.com in the Writers Showcase.


You've been invited? You and everyone else with an e-mail address.

Smart Publishing (http://www.geocities.com/smart_suzette/smartpublishing.html)

Smart Publishing ... a place so classy and well-funded that they have their homepage on Geocities, and a yahoo.com email account. The one book they list has an ISBN of 0-9761819-0-8. That tells me that they can, at most, have ten books. That book, Half Baked Sistas has three reviews -- all on websites. The book isn't listed at Amazon. It is listed at BN.Com, but it's not available. Since it came out in October, 2004 ... that gives me a bad feeling.

What's the prize? A publishing contract at no cost to the writer? Be still my heart! Publishing contracts, by their nature, don't have a cost to the writer.

But what's this? A $10 submission fee? Oh, dear. Oh, dearikins me. Don't do it. Payment from royalties only. No advance. The royalties are 7% for the first 4,000 copies? Have some pride, please.

Tell me something: Have you ever seen a book from Smart Publishing in a bookstore? Other than Half Baked Sistas is there another book from Smart Publishing?

You want some more advice, for free? Drop out of Rosedog.com right now. I've never heard of anything good coming from being listed there.

Rosedog is YADS: Yet Another Display Site. Display sites are great for writers who don't want to actually submit their works anywhere. You can feel like you're doing something without the danger of being rejected.

Legitimate agents and editors don't go cruising display sites. They have all the slush they need, personally addressed to them, sitting on their desks.

Can someone please invite that person over here? Not necessarily to this thread -- to one of the other boards where How To Find A Publisher is discussed.

[Sher2]

is listed right here at Article City:

Ed, I just now got around to reading your article. I have two words for you -- 'da bomb.

Sherry

P.S. - I loved the one about lying to the women in your life, too. Of course, the technique would work equally well on men.;)

[RealityChuck]

From their web page:
Smart Publishing is a traditional publishing company, founded in May of 2004.

Boy, is that a load off my mind. We all know when someone claims that, they have to be legit! :b

[Ed Williams 3]

..."Smart Publishing" is enough to get ya thinkin'.....

:b :evil :p

P.S. Sherry, now don't make an old country boy blush...

[afanofthetruth]

All your articles are fabulous and unique. You have alot of talent, lucky man! Just remember I'm your biggest fan, Ed..haha..the ladies are all on to your southern charm.

:rollin

[Zazopolis]

What's that odd slurping sound in here?

[vstrauss]

>>Rosedog is YADS: Yet Another Display Site.<<

Not only is it YADS, it's owned by Dorrance (the most expensive print vanity publisher in the biz).

- Victoria