The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America) [Archive] - Page 119

Lady of Prose

01-16-2006, 11:47 PM

I don't get it. Why should it say that it's a PA book. It's not a question of being open or not. It's a question of whether you want your name constantly associated with a bunch of scam artists. Why would SC want to promote a company he's come to despise? (Sorry SC if I've gone over the line here. I'm sure you can speak for yourself.)

I don't get it either. I certainly don't go around announcing that PA "printed" my book. I don't want to be associated with them what so ever. Unfortunately, I'm one of the naive ones that fell into the "purchase and resell" your own books trap, so I have to liquidate what I have on hand. However, on my web site PA is never mentioned. I HATE them.

As far as I can determine there have been no sales in the last royalty period. I am delighted! My goal is to sell the remainder of those books I purchased, online, to get some of my money back.

I've turned down book signing engagements because I don't want to steer people in the wrong direction. In addition, when I have a speaking engagement, I tell it exactly like it is when asked about my "publisher." I pass on all the correct information I have learned about publishing here at AW and through independent studies. It's wonderful the way people respond to rational and honest information pertaining to a sometimes difficult, but not impossible goal of being published by a commercial and reputable publisher.

I can't for the life of me, understand why anyone who has the information available to them now, would want to continue to support PA in any way, shape, or form. Boggles my mind! Makes no sense at all.

PA is a joke in the publishing world and one cannot use them as credit for previous work--so the advantage of being associated with such scum, is NONE!

shelagh

01-16-2006, 11:47 PM

Shelagh

It is nice to see someone with PA who is happy with their book. I think you make a great point here. Not every writer is publishing their book for the same reason, and not every book is the same either. Some books will never sell a million copies no matter what publisher they are published through. Writers at different stages in their writing careers will do and learn things differently.

It seems that good writing and marketability are sometimes used interchangeably in this forum, and I don't think that is always the case. Learn all you can from this and move on. It is your work, you should be happy with it and proud of it, as all writers should be.

Thanks egem! You're a real gem!

I do believe in my book -- 100%.

I've written four chapters of the sequel -- Mrs. Planemaker's Flying Carpet -- and tonight I'm about to start writing Chapter Five.

I wish you much success with your writing and I hope 2006 is a great year for you.

Thanks again,

Shelagh

Sheryl Nantus

01-16-2006, 11:50 PM

are you going to try and find an agent for this new book or are you planning to stay with PA?

rekirts

01-16-2006, 11:57 PM

Isn't it the same thing?

Absolutley not! SC Harrison is perfectly honest about having a book with PA. That doesn't mean he has to promote them when he doesn't believe in them. I wouldn't. I would only promote a company I thought deserved it.

James D. Macdonald

01-17-2006, 12:07 AM

Sheryl Nantus

01-17-2006, 12:18 AM

exactly.

all the denial in the world comes to a grinding stop when you look at that pitiful royalty check and realise that by placing any book with PA you've just cut your writing career off at the knees.

come March, I expect to see a lot of the more vocal PA defenders sliding in here with a sigh and a nod of acceptance.

so it goes.

SC Harrison

01-17-2006, 12:21 AM

I really didn't know his reason for not putting the publishing on the page with his book. I was asking. I could guess that it was due to the fact that he didn't want people to know, but I just wanted him to address it. It does follow that he was asking Shelagh to be open and honest about the publisher. Isn't it the same thing?

The only book I have is the PA book, and it is still an active title. No, I haven't demanded my rights back or asked them to stop selling it, and I am not going to shut down my website.

My initial reason for not acknowledging the publisher is because I didn't even think about it, and when I did, I didn't feel it was my responsibility to promote them, unlike many at PA who believe promoting their publisher will help everybody's sales. Later I did become embarassed, and would have removed any reference to PA, but there was none. Your unspoken question is probably: "How can you talk bad about PA and still utilize their services?" Because I can. I didn't swear an oath of fealty to PA, and I put too much work into Undeserved Trust to just forget about it.

I asked Shelagh to share some of her negative experiences with PA, so we can understand the whole picture.

shelagh

01-17-2006, 12:21 AM

shelagh

01-17-2006, 12:43 AM

I asked Shelagh to share some of her negative experiences with PA, so we can understand the whole picture.
I'm just not like anyone you've ever met before. One evening, when I was a student, I was drying my almost waist-length hair infront of a gas fire. One of my student friends was supposed to be combing the back of my hair as it dried, but she was inattentive and suddenly screamed, "Oh, my God!"

She had allowed the top layer of hair to singe and break off when she combed it. She couldn't understand how I took it so well. I didn't get upset. I didn't show any anger. I said, "Not to worry it will grow back again."

She said she would have gone ballistic had I done the same to her. That was the difference between us. I would have gone ballistic if I'd known that it was about to happen and I could have stopped it, but getting all het up after the event was a waste of emotional energy.

Things that are done, are done. You can't change anything. It just isn't me to be negative about things from the past that can't be changed. If people interfered in my life yesterday and not today, it's past history. If they are interfering in my life today -- they'd better watch out!

That's me. That's the way I am.

I really must get on with my writing!

Shelagh

It did grow back:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v685/shelagh/skippers1.jpg

Martin J Ross

01-17-2006, 01:11 AM

I'm just not like anyone you've ever met before. One evening, when I was a student, I was drying my almost waist-length hair infront of a gas fire. One of my student friends was supposed to be combing the back of my hair as it dried, but she was inattentive and suddenly screamed, "Oh, my God!"

She had allowed the top layer of hair to singe and break off when she combed it. She couldn't understand how I took it so well. I didn't get upset. I didn't show any anger. I said, "Not to worry it will grow back again."

She said she would have gone ballistic had I done the same to her. That was the difference between us. I would have gone ballistic if I'd known that it was about to happen and I could have stopped it, but getting all het up after the event was a waste of emotional energy.

Things that are done, are done. You can't change anything. It just isn't me to be negative about things from the past that can't be changed. If people interfered in my life yesterday and not today, it's past history. If they are interfering in my life today -- they'd better watch out!

That's me. That's the way I am.

I really must get on with my writing!

Shelagh

Hello Shelagh.

I have a question or two.
After your friend accidentally singed your hair, would you have done the same to her? I can understand not getting upset over the past, but they are asking you to present a balanced picture, for the people who haveen't yet decided about PA. Noone is asking you to start a war with them, just present a picture for the undecided that is honest, so that they have all the facts to make thier decision.

allenparker

01-17-2006, 01:13 AM

"Selling a million copies" isn't what writing and publishing is all about.

Making a living isn't even what it's all about.

Having readers ... that's what it's all about.

I didn't write anything with the intention of getting rich. I never planned to quit my job, or relocate to Key Largo. Well, maybe an island.

What I wanted was to be read and accepted in my niche. I got some of that. I occasionally run into people that have read one of my books. On occasion, I am asked to sign a book. Rare occasions I am pleasantly surprised to find my book listed on a web page I never heard of, or in a gift shop at a nudist location.

None of this is about getting rich; it is about being wealthy. It is about enriching your soul while writing words and seeing the positive reactions from other people.

I realize that my experience with PA, until recently, has not been typical. They are, however, equalizing the experience presently.

For those people that are grieving over a PA book, celebrating a PA book, or are indifferent to the experience, please keep writing. It is a form of self examination that cleanses the soul and allows others to share your experiences.

I am fortunate to have another small publisher to accept my third book. It may not be Random House, but I have the opportunity to speak to my audience, whether it be large or small. If I had let a bad experience cease my writing, I would forfeit that right to expression.

The second part of this is to submit your work. Send it to people that can offer you a chance. Make the most from the feed back you receive. Keep making changes that you see as needed. Become a better writer and author. Never quit.

< handing my Soap Box to Jim > Sorry guy. I was on a roll. It is your fault. You should have stopped me. You knew I would get going and not stop. If you wanted me to stop, you should have sent over a plate of my grandma's biscuits and gravy. Gets me off the rolls every time.

egem

01-17-2006, 02:25 AM

"Selling a million copies" isn't what writing and publishing is all about.

Making a living isn't even what it's all about.

Having readers ... that's what it's all about.

March will tell the story, when the next batch of royalties come in. Then we'll see how many readers our happy PA authors have gotten.

This seems to tie the writer's happiness with how much money they've made, readership or not. The PA book that was just made into a movie might not have had a large readership, but he may if the movie does well. I wonder what will happen with his book after the movie comes out.

Readership may not be the only thing writers get out of publishing. As Shelagh pointed out she is learning a lot. Jim you have been writing for a long time, and you've done very well. You also know that not every writer takes the same path or needs the same things that other writers do. You may have been well ready when you published your first book to be a published writer. I'm sure you learned a lot a long the way. Publishing has changed a great deal since then. I see a lot of writers here pointing their fingers at PA, but many of those writers have gone with publishers that may not be the best either. Double Dragon ebooks is a nontraditional way to publish a book. They say every book is edited, but I bet if we go digging we'll find they do not have the best screening process. Do they even have a home office? Is this any more than a guy with a little publishing under his belt making money off authors selling their books to family memebers.

How about LBF Books? A few on the boards have gone with this publisher. They are asking to pay their writers through Pay-Pal. Now that seems odd to me. Do they edit? Do they promote? I bet if we dig we can find all kinds of things these publishers are not upfront about.

This does not mean that the writers who have gone with these publishers aren't getting something from their works other than money or readership. DDP says they sell 30,000 units, but I still can't tell how many books they've "published". Publishing is changing. It is a different world. PA is the only one of these 3 new age publishers gaining any type of success. Run a google news search on PA and you will find that every month writers are in their local papers and national papers promoting their new books. I don't think it's so bad to be honest. I think some people that have published books their didn't know anything about publishing or writing and they are unhappy with the way things turned out. They come here or mindsight or other blogs and start a fuss.

The most bad press PA seems to get comes from this board and from its members. In all I can only find about 25 people out of the more than 10,000 that have published with PA who are unhappy. This thread is what 17,000 pages long and the same people who were complaining on page 1 are still here shouting down people that say good things about this publisher.

Sheryl Nantus

01-17-2006, 02:32 AM

Christine N.

01-17-2006, 02:35 AM

I absolutely agree with egem - you should be proud of your work. Anyone who gets from the beginning to "The End" - it's an achievement.

And I agree about hair too. I sometimes cut my own, and people gasp. "It's only hair," I say.

I have different feelings about my books. I want them treated fairly, and me with respect, not as a writer, but a human being. PA doesn't do that for anyone.

And I agree with Allen - I'm not with Random House, but I am with a publisher who wants my book to succeed. When it suceeds, they do to. I have never once had to purchase a book out of my own pocket. If I go to an event where I have to bring the books, they are shipped to me. I sell what I can, and send the money and the remainder back, or keep them for the next event.

But this is not about writing, it's about publishing. Which are two VERY different things. One is an art, one is a business. And PA does bad business.

Good luck to you in your agent hunt. A bit of advice; do NOT mention your PA book to them. I don't know about UK agents, but most of the legit agents in this country do NOT see a book with PA as writing credit. Sad but true. Go in as an unpublished newbie.

PS to egem - PM me if you have any questions about LBF. Paying writers through Pay pal is not that uncommon anymore. I've been paid for writing and copyediting from various places through PP. It's easy and saves on postage.

egem

01-17-2006, 02:36 AM

The only book I have is the PA book, and it is still an active title. No, I haven't demanded my rights back or asked them to stop selling it, and I am not going to shut down my website.

My initial reason for not acknowledging the publisher is because I didn't even think about it, and when I did, I didn't feel it was my responsibility to promote them, unlike many at PA who believe promoting their publisher will help everybody's sales. Later I did become embarassed, and would have removed any reference to PA, but there was none. Your unspoken question is probably: "How can you talk bad about PA and still utilize their services?" Because I can. I didn't swear an oath of fealty to PA, and I put too much work into Undeserved Trust to just forget about it.

I asked Shelagh to share some of her negative experiences with PA, so we can understand the whole picture.

No, my unspoken question isn't why you do not promote PA when you "utilize their services?" I'm saying you should be happy with your book and go tell the others to have a coke and smile and you know how that goes. Most of the world doesn't even anything about PA. They just want to know about your book about bashing the publisher does not help.

I was pointing out the irony that you were not being upfront on your site about where your book was published, yet you wanted Shelagh to be unfront about all here problems witht he publisher.

I'm happy you have a book. Maybe things would be better for you if people would put their money where their mouths are and support each other instead of tearing their publishers down. Hey, there's an idea. I have a son whose 12 maybe I'll go buy your book SC. I'll let you know what I think of it. I bet it is wonderful no matter who published it.

egem

01-17-2006, 02:38 AM

*falls off chair*

this will get me banned for a bit... but you're an idiot.

there is DOCUMENTED proof that PA is ripping off their authors. Phil Dolan's arbitration was a LEGAL event that happened. The Washington Post did an expose, not to mention other newspapers that deal with facts, not just upset authors. "Atlanta Nights", if nothing else, proves that PA will publish anything. Does none of this give you the impression that PA may not, in fact, be a viable option for anyone taking their writing seriously?

truly, an idiot.

:rant:

Washington Post, Atlanta Nights, were all connected with people in this forum. You made my point for me, and it is not nice to call people names.

Sheryl Nantus

01-17-2006, 02:42 AM

Washington Post, Atlanta Nights, were all connected with people in this forum. You made my point for me, and it is not nice to call people names.

wait, wait, wait... you think it's all MADE UP?

you think that EVERYONE in this forum just MADE UP the facts about PA and passed them onto the media in some major conspiracy in order to smear the name of this upstanding publisher?

you have got to be kidding me.

:Shrug:

Christine N.

01-17-2006, 02:42 AM

Uh, egem, PA authors may be in their local papers every month, but people aren't buying the books. Most of the sales are to the authors. That's a fact.

What's holding them back? High cover prices and short discounts, among other things.

It's not about the writers, it's about the publisher and its business practices. It's about PA's public image. They aren't selective, they don't edit, and they don't promote. Makes them pretty much an author mill or vanity publisher or a printer masquerading as a 'real' publisher.

All we really want is for them to be honest about who they are.

SC Harrison

01-17-2006, 02:44 AM

Things that are done, are done. You can't change anything. It just isn't me to be negative about things from the past that can't be changed. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v685/shelagh/skippers1.jpg

Yes, but...if you discover a country path which affords scenic views but also has some treacherous footing due to rocks or roots, would you not reveal both of these items of information to a fellow path-walker?

If you only tell them about the beautiful scenery, are you not doing them an injustice with your circumspection?

DaveKuzminski

01-17-2006, 02:50 AM

egem

01-17-2006, 02:52 AM

wait, wait, wait... you think it's all MADE UP?

you think that EVERYONE in this forum just MADE UP the facts about PA and passed them onto the media in some major conspiracy in order to smear the name of this upstanding publisher?

you have got to be kidding me.

:Shrug:

No I don't think it is all made up. I do think there are many problems with PA. I never said that at all. You are publishing through Mundania Press. They are pretty new to publishing (2002). How are things there? Do you have any complaints? Are they going to run a media blitz for your book? They say on their site they want you to work hard to promote your book. What have you done to promote it? Did you get an advance? How much? If there is anything to warn people about this publisher about, let's hear it. How many people have you met in the editing process? Do you have weekly or monthly edits with your editors? Tell me about. If they had more authors would they have complaints about the promotions?

egem

01-17-2006, 03:03 AM

Egem, there's are fundamental differences in Double Dragon Publishing, LBF, and PA.

For starters, DDP and LBF simply don't have hordes of disgruntled authors writing to complain to the watchdog services as PA has. In fact, between them, I've received exactly one complaint that an email wasn't responded to. Oh gosh, that's a heavy duty complaint. I should crucify whichever one did that.

Furthermore, the number of units per author is probably significantly higher than most authors at PA, especially if you eliminate author purchases at PA since DDP, and I presume LBF, do not ask their authors regularly to make self-purchases of their books. Yet, speaking for myself only, my book titled Knight Spirits sold 150 copies in its first reporting period. That's double the average sales for most PA books. That PA average is also the PA lifetime amount of total sales for many of their books. So, don't go comparing overall units for two different sized publishers. You want to get down to proper comparisons, then you compare apples to apples even though yours (PA) is rotten to the core.'

Did you sell those to friends and family? An ebook going for 5.99 seems a little high to me. Do you have any complaints about DDP? How is the editing? Do they promote you well enough? Did your last book sell well. I would guess they have a no return policy (kidding). You have published a lot of books through DDP. It seems to work for you, and I would guess you are happy with them, but if we all sat around talking about all the things your publisher does wrong or could do better, I bet you would be unhappy with them before too long. You might even take their name off your site and only sell through amazon.

shelagh

01-17-2006, 03:06 AM

Hello Shelagh.

I have a question or two.
After your friend accidentally singed your hair, would you have done the same to her? I can understand not getting upset over the past, but they are asking you to present a balanced picture, for the people who haveen't yet decided about PA. Noone is asking you to start a war with them, just present a picture for the undecided that is honest, so that they have all the facts to make thier decision.
Martin,
You didn't understand a word I wrote! I think your question was meant to be:
After your friend accidentally singed your hair, would you have taken more care to ensure that the same thing didn't happen to her?

You are asking me if I learned anything from my friend's mistake and did I learn anything for PA's mistakes and, if so, what were those mistakes?

When I contacted publishers in the UK, they said that I needed an agent. The agents said that my manuscripts had to be completely error free to be accepted, even though agents would make recommendations about changes to the manuscript they agreed to represent me.

A London agent told me not to make any changes to my manuscript until my work was accepted by an agent. If I signed with an agent, I should agree to make all the changes I might be asked to make.

I took all this information on board and sent a flawless manuscript to PA. The errors I corrected in the pdf file were mainly layout errors and I take full responsibility for the grammar and spelling of the manuscript.

If an author signs with a publisher, without first signing with an agent, the author has to be prepared to do the job the agent would have done. I did.

So what did PA do wrong? They offered me a contract in October 2004, then they sent a copy of the contract for me to read, which I did. Then they sent a contract that I signed. So far, so good. I'm happy (actually I was ecstatic!)

They sent a questionnaire and asked if I would return it by January 1st 2006.

I sent it mid-December 2004. They sent a reminder on January 2nd asking for the questionnaire (which they said to ignore if I had already returned the questionnaire.) I sent it again -- just in case! Still no problems, I'm happy.

Mid-February they sent an email to say that as soon as an editor had been appointed to edit my manuscript, I would hear from them. They said this would be a matter of weeks but it was actually months. I'm mildly concerned.

Mid-April, my pdf file arrived. I stared at the email message for several minutes, afraid to open it. I clicked, saw the title, held back the tears. Saw the dedication, and the waterworks flooded.

April 27th: email to say that my pdf file had been forwarded to production. I'm so excited, I'm unbearable!

Beginning of May, I received my cover art. It's awful. They've removed all the images connected to space (I sent the artwork in an excel file and the erath, moon, mars and comet were all separate files.

My husband was away, external examiner for an English University (we live in Wales) so no second opinion.

It's mid afternoon so I crack on with producing jpeg files that can be inserted onto the front and back cover. My neighbour's son, Jonathan, is playing soccer outdside. I rapidly print out the cover art PA sent me and the cover art I've produced. I dash outside and collar Jonathan. "Which is best," I ask. He's bemused, but points to my effort. I work until the early hours of the morning until the cover is done. The next morning I send it.

A day later I received the new cover art for my approval. I approve the new cover and receive an email saying, "Glad you like the new cover!"

You've got to laugh, haven't you?

Within a couple of weeks my book is on amazon.com and barnesandnoble.com and within a few more weeks it's on amazon.co.uk with a sales ranking. I watch the ranking like a hawk -- it reaches a pinnacle of something in the mid 6000! I'm over the moon!

Now, what is it that PA is doing to make life difficult? Nothing I'm aware of. Okay, I'm not going to sell very many books and I would like to sell more. If you want to know how far I've got in terms of reviews, press releases etc., visit my website.

PA have done everything they promised to do, the rest is up to me. I work hard, very hard. Will I succeed?

Time will tell.

Shelagh

AnnaWhite

01-17-2006, 03:11 AM

The most bad press PA seems to get comes from this board and from its members. In all I can only find about 25 people out of the more than 10,000 that have published with PA who are unhappy.
How far back did you go? Do you have any proof that there are only 25 'unhappy' PA authors who've ever posted on NEPAT? Or did you pull that figure out of a hat?

A while back, I counted more than 60 unhappy PA authors who'd posted on NEPAT, over a period of about 3 months. I guess that would add to about 240 'unhappy' PA authors a year.

Moreover, the only PA authors I know outside of this forum are extremely 'unhappy', but they've never posted here. Do you really think only those who post in NEPAT are 'unhappy'?

Anyway, being happy or unhappy is beside the point. The facts about PA speak for themselves: ridiculously high cover prices, no promotion, bad editing and cover designs, books unavailable in bookshops, abysmal reputation in the publishing industry, questionable accounting policies, illegal publishing of books after contract reversal, and so on and so forth.

Christine N.

01-17-2006, 03:12 AM

Egem

LBF published 20 books last year. 20. PA 'publishes' three times that every week. What kind of quality do you think you are getting with that? And it's not lack of submissions - in fact, LBF is so buried under subs that they are currently closed to ms subs until they catch up. Not unusual for small publishers - Zunymaya (I know I didn't spell that right, sorry Nancy) is also, as well as WinterWolf.

I'll tell you about my publisher - I had an editor that I spent months with, working on my book. Months of back and forth, making changes, tightening up, cleaning and polishing. Like most people, I thought it was pretty good to start with - a real editor will show you how wrong you are, don't care how well you think you write.

Then Robert Nagy got a copy of the ms, and he got to work, hand drawing the interior illustrations and cover. Took six months. SIX MONTHS of him working on art, just for my book.

I got ARC's.. real uncorrected proof, Advance Readers Copies. These I sent out to various places for review. You can visit my website to see some of them. They're also around on various website. This was free of charge - I paid nothing.

I have never, ever been asked for dime one. Never been asked to buy a single book. As a matter of fact, I got ten copies for myself.

Is their distribution on par with Scholastic or Harper Collins? Of course not. Last year was their first full year of publishing books. But I'll tell ya what - they've contacted every major chain to try and get the book stocked. They did all the paperwork, they're doing the follow up. They advertise all their books in their magazines. They make the effort. They work hard for their authors. I offer to help in any way I can, but it's not my responsibility alone.

I have spent very little money myself - I had one batch of bookmarks printed (oh, and LBF supplied the template) to hand out pre-release and some flyers done. Copywork, and tax-deductible. A pittance.

My book is 180 pages and retails for $14.95 - a reasonable price. It has a good discount and is returnable, and not for 5% either.

I'm sure people will have complaints if you dig deep enough. But how many people have the same complaints over and over?

Care to compare?

SC Harrison

01-17-2006, 03:32 AM

Thanks, Shelagh. Now, how about review copies for newspapers? Like me, did you give them one of your own so you wouldn't have to ask the paper to request one from PA? Did PA send press releases when and where you asked them to? Did you or anybody (bookstores) have trouble getting book orders on time?

Stuff like that. Give.

egem

01-17-2006, 03:44 AM

Jean Marie

01-17-2006, 03:48 AM

Can I pretend I'm still in California? Southern, that is. I mean, that's where I'm from http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif Well, it's where I grew up anyway. 'Bout 10 min. from the beach and I still bodysurf too. Matter of fact, I'm extremely good at it...

'K. Egem, dude, what planet are you from, man? I've no idea where you're gleaning your info from, but, I cannot give you even one prop, man. You really need to check your sources, the ones you're using are way too radical. I'm talkin' off the wall, dude. Don't be spreading false information, it is so not cool. And what about the newbies, man, that's what this thread's about. You cannot be lyin' to them. I mean, PA stole my book. And you know that to be true. Look it up, dude. And I have my rights back.

Like I said, man, no props for you.

egem

01-17-2006, 04:00 AM

How far back did you go? Do you have any proof that there are only 25 'unhappy' PA authors who've ever posted on NEPAT? Or did you pull that figure out of a hat?

A while back, I counted more than 60 unhappy PA authors who'd posted on NEPAT, over a period of about 3 months. I guess that would add to about 240 'unhappy' PA authors a year.

Moreover, the only PA authors I know outside of this forum are extremely 'unhappy', but they've never posted here. Do you really think only those who post in NEPAT are 'unhappy'?

Anyway, being happy or unhappy is beside the point. The facts about PA speak for themselves: ridiculously high cover prices, no promotion, bad editing and cover designs, books unavailable in bookshops, abysmal reputation in the publishing industry, questionable accounting policies, illegal publishing of books after contract reversal, and so on and so forth.

I do not know exactly how many people here are PA authors fussing around the web, but my point is every website you go to, you find the same people. Many of them started here. Many of the people who started this thread are still here. This thread is the same thing over and over. About once a week a new person comes in and says "hey I don't see why PA is so bad" and everyone else shouts them down, calls them names, until they leave. Or some of these authors have come in happy with their books looking for a place to promote. They find a bunch of writers bashing their publisher they get mad and then they are ashamed they were ever happy with the publisher in the first place. Most of this has been said a million times. Even the people who are against PA complain that some people tell the same story over and over again.

Some writers have come in happy, then mad, and then PA has pulled their contracts most-likely for bashing them some much. I know, I've been called names, bashed, thought to work for PA... on and on all becuase i don't hold the same views about people having their books published through this publisher. If you have a book you should be proud of it, but you can't bash them and sell your book at the same time.

egem

01-17-2006, 04:04 AM

Jean Marie

01-17-2006, 04:06 AM

because I didn't buy any of the books myself, the bookstores bought them. and, no, I didn't bash them while I was still under contract regardless of what you may think.

Jean Marie

01-17-2006, 04:09 AM

and, yes they are criminals, scammers and any other word. and yes they are selling my book illegally. but, you already know that. so, what exactly is your agenda outside of being an obvious troll? oh, and you're not upsetting me in the least-ha, ha, ha.

Christine N.

01-17-2006, 04:44 AM

First of all, Jenna allows no name-calling. If someone is an obvious troll, they are called on it. You, however, don't seem to be a troll, but rather a person who wants to dispute the facts.

Ok, so... yes, my publisher has done promotion, as have I. I've also had a newspaper interview and a TV interview. I've done two book signings. I set them up - it was a matter of convenience, since they were both local. One wasn't very good, the other was fabulous. The fabulous one was at my local library, and the childen's librarians made a huge deal of me. She read the book before the event and had crafts related to the book. Which was very cool. Even sent me an (unasked for) honorarium afterwards and a lovely thank you note.

Once my book makes it into the Borders store database (brick and mortar, not .com, since Borders online is through Amazon) I will be setting up more. As soon as I hear from B&N, same thing. The publicist has offered to do this, but if I can, I will. Let me tell you the books will arrive on time and there will be NO problems with returning any that aren't sold.

Don't know how many books have sold - have to wait until the next royalty period. The book only came out about a month ago. The later royalty statement will probably be a better indicator.

And in the meantime, I'm getting my next book ready to go - it'll be out next year. As Uncle Jim says, the best way to promote your first book is to publish another.

If by promotion, do they put those displays into stores and pay for front facing? No - those are hugely expensive, most big time publishers only use those for a fraction of their list anyway. Do they use everything at their disposal to promote their books? Yes.

Take a look at their website - geared toward CUSTOMERS - readers. NOT writers. PA's site has one purpose- to suck more people in.

ResearchGuy

01-17-2006, 04:55 AM

... PA's site has one purpose- to suck more people in.
On a loosely related note ... PA has published what, 16,000 books now? Well, I, personally, have read every single one of them that is stocked at my local Barnes & Noble (a store with maybe 10,000 square feet of floor space). Every single one!

All zero of them.

--Ken

Sheryl Nantus

01-17-2006, 04:57 AM

well, I know you read one...

*chuckles*

Ken Schneider

01-17-2006, 05:02 AM

There isn't now, nor has there ever been a question about P.A.'s underhanded tactics.

Anyone who wishes to defend them should have all of the facts, and the experience to speak on the subject.

Reading this thread— from the beginning, should enlighten those who have questions that can, have, and continue to be answered in this and other threads.

If one does not know the problems with P.A.'s business model, then they haven't been with the printer long enough to find out.

You will not sell books through P.A., you will buy them.

Books do not sell online unless you are famous, or you send a friend to buy it there. Be real, who is going to surf Amazon's more than 40,000 titles to find a P.A. book? Right, someone you have sent.

Bookstores will not stock P.A. books unless they are placed on consignment, or you know the manager, make friends with them, and it will be "only" your local store.

Bookstores will not stock P.A. books at a 5% return rate.

Bookstores will not offer signings unless you bring your own books, which, you have purchased from P.A. If they do order them for the signing, you will purchase the balance to leave on consignment.

And, most of all, publishing with P.A. is not free if you bought your own books. It is called reverse vanity. They,(P.A.), with their board, and preying on new, unseasoned, uninformed writers, create excitement just as Shelagh explained upstream, to sell books to authors.

P.A. becomes your bossom pal because they gave your slush the chance they told you it deserved. You'll say, and do, and believe, anything they say until you go broke doing it, and get a check for a couple bucks.

No amount of marketing will sell a P.A. book because there aren't any viable distribution channels.

Meiners is a Dr. of Psychology from what has been told, and he knows how to push people's buttons.

It's your baby, your first book, that special something, and they know it, they know you'll buy it, and you do.

If you don't know these things, you haven't been in P.A.'s pocket long enough.

Yes, they print your book with no upfront costs. They do not edit like real editors, as their authors think they will. Then leave the author to the embarrassment of that book. They do not operate like the commercial publishers do. There is no such thing as a traditional publisher, it is commercial.

The one dollar advance is a slap in the face.
Do you know what an advance means?

It is the amount of faith the publisher places in your book to sell. P.A. believes by giving out one dollar, that you will not sell more than one dollar's worth of books.
Bill Clinton got millions in advances, as did Hillary. Why, 'cause people wanted to hear/read their story, and the publisher knew it would sell.

DaveKuzminski

01-17-2006, 05:24 AM

'

Did you sell those to friends and family? An ebook going for 5.99 seems a little high to me. Do you have any complaints about DDP? How is the editing? Do they promote you well enough? Did your last book sell well. I would guess they have a no return policy (kidding). You have published a lot of books through DDP. It seems to work for you, and I would guess you are happy with them, but if we all sat around talking about all the things your publisher does wrong or could do better, I bet you would be unhappy with them before too long. You might even take their name off your site and only sell through amazon.

Interestingly enough, Egem, my books are still selling to real customers. How many PA authors can say that after a year? In fact, how many of them can claim that after only as little as six months without being the purchaser themselves? I've never sold a single copy of any of my books to any of my friends or family. In fact, I don't have to buttonhole anyone or make anyone feel guilty that they have to buy one in order to avoid me.

Evidently those customers feel the price is reasonable because my books sell and continue to sell. In fact, I get letters from customers asking when the next book will come out, not to complain about the price. I guess that's why none have ever complained about returns, either.

Obviously, Egem, the editing is good. Maybe not perfect, but that's never been a customer complaint, either. I certainly spend enough time with the editors at my publishers doing the editing and then redoing it until we're all satisfied with the results and that we've done our best.

Do my publishers do everything right? Well, they sure try to do right. I don't get tone letters from any of them when I ask questions. I don't get banned from their forums, either. Oh that's right, you might not know it, but some other publishers do have forums. I've always been free to speak my mind. Never been banned or slapped down yet. I haven't seen a need to remove any of them from my personal site, either.

Now if they weren't actually making sales, I guess your comment about going direct through Amazon might have some merit. However, my publishers actually get my work to the public. When it comes to making sales, I'm earning more than just enough money for a pack of smokes. Of course, my wife then points out things she'd like me to buy for her with the royalties such as diamond rings, a new shed for her hobby, siding for the house, new windows for the house. I was happy to oblige since I could pay for those with just the royalties.

Now Egem, how many books do you sell regularly? How regular are your royalties? What can you show for all your efforts?

Jean Marie

01-17-2006, 05:33 AM

Feel free to correct me: I thought a troll was someone who strolled in and argued endlessly and senselessly about PA regardless of the in-place, obvious facts. Mine along w/ Nancy Mehl and several others being incredibly in-your-face. Our rights having been returned and PA continuing to sell our books. And yet, these individuals, whatever you wish to refer to them as, seem to find it hilarious to spit in our collective faces over it.

If it's not the definition of a troll, maybe it's one of evil and heartless=to PA.
Since that's what PA is. Regardless of how tiring it is, it does get in the way of those who do need the help of this thread.

And on another note: this is important. Ingrams is now advising bookstores to order books from Lightning Source instead of from them OR PA. And that's on the off-chance that a bookstore will even order one. However, that's the latest news.

Peggy

01-17-2006, 05:39 AM

The most bad press PA seems to get comes from this board and from its members. In all I can only find about 25 people out of the more than 10,000 that have published with PA who are unhappy. This thread is what 17,000 pages long and the same people who were complaining on page 1 are still here shouting down people that say good things about this publisher.I am a merely a reader of this thread, and not a PA author. I have no axe to grind with PA. Reading this thread (and the other AW threads that discuss real commercial publishing) has convinced me that PA is vanity press, and a bad choice for anyone who wants a broad readership for his/her book. What is worse is that PA's behavior is completely unprofessional and its advertising attempts to deceive those who are new to publishing. It seems pretty clear to me that if you want lots of readers, go with a commercial publisher. If you want to self-publish, there are many other POD or non-POD options that are much less expensive (Lulu, Kinkos, your local print shop). If you are happy going with a vanity press, that's fine, but don't try to sell PA to others who want to be commercially published.

I don't know how many unhappy PA authors have written about their experiences in this thread or elsewhere on the web. It sure seems like more than 25. I would expect that the number of unhappy authors willing to post here is just the tip of the iceberg - many people who are unhappy don't want to dwell on it and simply move on with their lives. The important question is not the number of unhappy PA authors who are willing to publicly tell their story, but the number of PA authors who are happy and satisfied with their experience a year or more after their book is released. I would be willing to bet it is far less than 10,000.

Why do I care? Before I started visiting AW and learning about real publishing, I too might have fallen for PA. When my WIP is finished, I want it to be professionally edited and available in bookstores. That is the minimum a published author should expect.

SeanDSchaffer

01-17-2006, 05:40 AM

Sage

01-17-2006, 05:53 AM

Right on cue Jean Marie. Please tell me your story one more time, wait I'll get popcorn. I do have a question for you. Did PA pull your contract before or after you found out they weren't up to these other writers standards? Did you bash them, and then they dropped you? Did you bring any of this on yourself or was all the evil evil publisher?Even though, I have no experience w/ PA, I thought I'd cut in here.

Actually, I just read JM's story for the first time the other day. Which, perhaps, is why she keeps telling it. Because not everyone has been reading the thread from the beginning, nor do they want to go through the 1182 pages to read it all. The only reason I know she tells it over & over is because someone commented on it. Unless you've read the thread for a while (not sure if you have or not), you may know this only for the same reason I do.

Also, this seems to be a place created to vent about PA. Seems reasonable that someone would use it to vent when they felt particularly upset about it. No reason to bash them for doing it, since that's the purpose.

So what was your purpose here, egem?

egem

01-17-2006, 07:27 AM

Sage, good point. I really don't have a purpose for being here. I saw Shelagh doing what she could to say good things about her book. About once every month or so I pop in to this thread to see what is going on. I came to AW through this thread. I was looking around the web doing research about publishing, and I ran across the PA article from the Washington Post. I followed Dee Power's name back to this sight, and that's how I found this thread. I have a very different view of publishing than many of the people here.

You are right though. This is not my fight. I just look at it differently, and I've said it before, I hate to see people afraid or ashamed to promote their book because of the company that published it. I also believe in many arguments that others here to not take to well. I do think that writers that publish their own books have been around for a very long time. Many great writers have published their own books, and I didn't see anything so wrong with PA.

Ken has written a lot of the argument about PA here, and I'm going through it one time to maybe show why my views are so different. I think things are changing in publishing. I don't think the fight against PA is right. I don't because of how it makes the authors writing for that company feel. I'll go through one time and say what I have to say. This isn't my fight, but I think some of the views here are off the mark. Please understand that I do not see this about being about PA really all that much, but rather alternative publishing.

Books do not sell online unless you are famous, or you send a friend to buy it there. Be real, who is going to surf Amazon's more than 40,000 titles to find a P.A. book? Right, someone you have sent.

It may be just as hard to sell a book in a bookstore. If you do not have a promotion or some other way of getting word to the reader it is very hard for a person to go in and randomly pick a book up that you have written. Most book sales come from bookstores, but remember most book sales come from a top tier of writers, ones who have promotion or what have you. What I'm saying is putting a book in a bookstore does not make it sell.

Also, Dave was just in here saying that he was selling his ebooks very well. I'm pretty sure you can't find them in bookstores.

And, most of all, publishing with P.A. is not free if you bought your own books. It is called reverse vanity. They,(P.A.), with their board, and preying on new, unseasoned, uninformed writers, create excitement just as Shelagh explained upstream, to sell books to authors.

P.A. becomes your bossom pal because they gave your slush the chance they told you it deserved. You'll say, and do, and believe, anything they say until you go broke doing it, and get a check for a couple bucks.

No amount of marketing will sell a P.A. book because there aren't any viable distribution channels.

Go out and find a small press and you will see that many cannot afford to print enough books to stock bookstores. This isn't a new thing. Many of the books I read I have to order. Remember not so long ago when big bookstores like B&N and Borders weren't on every street corner. You had to go to Waldens or another small bookstore in the mall on downtown? Back then 20 years ago you had to order a ton of books. Look at the poetry section of Borders or B&N and this is still the case. You can't find most collections in books stores. And many many collections of short stories aren't stocked either.

Most small book publishers do supply authors with books for readings, but let's remember ebooks can't do this, but we don't attack the publisher for it.

Yes, they print your book with no upfront costs. They do not edit like real editors, as their authors think they will. Then leave the author to the embarrassment of that book. They do not operate like the commercial publishers do. There is no such thing as a traditional publisher, it is commercial.

Most PODs will not edit your book, but at least PA does a once over. As you said they front the cost. Small houses do not edit either. Many only published 5 to 10 titles a year and they simply take the book that is in the best shape to be published. Some pride themselves on little editing.

When you say traditional publisher you mean big to mid-size publishing houses.

The one dollar advance is a slap in the face.
Do you know what an advance means?

It is the amount of faith the publisher places in your book to sell. P.A. believes by giving out one dollar, that you will not sell more than one dollar's worth of books.
Bill Clinton got millions in advances, as did Hillary. Why, 'cause people wanted to hear/read their story, and the publisher knew it would sell.

Many small houses pay in copies or they don't give you an advance at all.

Many of you are thinking that your books will be published through a large house, but if you look at the numbers their are not enough publishers per writers guys. There may not even be enough publishers for good writers or the best writers. Every year good books go unpublished and bad books get published. We all know this. Go to your bookstore and you will find bad books. It doesn't mean that YOU can't get published, but it does mean that some people will not. This is where PA come in. They are publishing people in many cases that would not get published by big houses.

This is just my view. I don't agree with a lot of what is said about PA. I hate that writers are ashamed their books were published. That's all. This board is vicious to PA authors. I've been called an idiot once today I suppose it will happen once more when I publish this post.

Overall I think things are changing a great deal in publishing. I think we will see more companies like PA. I also think ebooks and other forms of publishing will grow. This is no different than what is happening in music or in television. I read and read and read about PA, but I've also seen a book become a movie from PA, celebrities sign on with the company, books from PA win awards and even PA books sell well enough to be picked up by other big publishing houses.

Jean Marie if PA is still selling your book (or sold your book after your contract was up) then they are breaking/broke copyright law. Since 1996 this is a very big deal. They can be fined an ungodly amount of money for this. You could be the author to put them out of business. Get a lawyer and that lawyer can get a court to make them turn over their records. If you are not doing this then I don't think sitting on the board all day telling people your story is really doing any good. If you really want to do some good prove that they have wronged you. Go to court and show that they are not paying their writers. Then you will have protected others. Until then you are just bashing the publisher and nothing else.

Also I don't know if I missed it or not, but I ran your book and your name through PA and they are no longer selling your book. Last time we talked I think they still had you listed.

Jean Marie

01-17-2006, 07:42 AM

check amazon or any other online store, it's there. and I'm following through on several fronts. obviously I don't sit here all day, I only stop in to answer questions. the rest of the time, I send out query letters and write.

VeggieChick

01-17-2006, 08:17 AM

OK, I don't have a book with PA. I have read the whole thread (well, pretty much) and I understand why PA is not a good choice, etc. But I have a question: what about poetry books? We all know they don't really sell as much. We know many poets self-publish. Why would I pay $149 for Lulu to make the book available in Amazon, when PA will do it for free? I'm not much of a poet, but I have a friend who is, and when she asked me this question, I really didn't have an answer for her. Why not PA? Sure, their books are overpriced. So what? Poetry by an unknown writer will only sell to friends and family nonetheless. Why not go through PA? It's free. My friend is a college professor, and having her book "published" by PA and available online will certainly look better than selling it herself through Lulu (or paying $149 to make available in online stores).

So I guess my question is, is PA really a bad option FOR EVERYBODY? I know it is for those who want to reach large audiences, but what about the small books? And no, most people outside this circle don't know much about PA, so for them is a publisher like any other (no stigma attached).

James D. Macdonald

01-17-2006, 08:38 AM

Yes, poets mostly self-publish.

The tradeoffs with PA are higher cover prices and lower discounts, combined with the loss of your rights for seven years, and lousy royalties.

A while back I did a comparison: PA vs. iUniverse vs. going to a local printshop.

PA turned out to be the most expensive, not the least expensive. PA is vanity publishing on the installment plan -- you pay more down the road than you would if you just plunked down a wad of cash right now.

triceretops

01-17-2006, 08:43 AM

SeanDSchaffer

01-17-2006, 09:22 AM

Snipped for Length....

I will say this, and I've often thought about it. I'm wondering if PA (in the begining) might have been a fairly decent (or last resort) choice for children's picture books. I guess it's a moot point, because I believe that PA never did accept tiny reader pic books. But aren't children's books (picture or not) inherently difficult to publish the first time out?

....Snipped

My Emphasis.

Hi, Tri,

There was a time when PA did do full-color children's books. I reviewed one such children's book, and all-in-all it was very good.

I think that shortly after the said book came out (a few months before Wyverinia Chronicles did) they changed that policy and began to reject full-color submissions as a rule.

triceretops

01-17-2006, 09:36 AM

Ah, you're right, Sean. I do remember that now. Because I remember when they made the announcement.

BTW good luck with your book. I love that title and I hope it turns into a series for you.

Tri

egem

01-17-2006, 10:02 AM

I could see PA for poety chapbooks, certainly. Also for short stories collections, niche non-fiction books that might sell at universities or museums, and certainly some memoire work, which has a difficult time with commercial acceptance.

I don't think it does well with general (national attention) non-fiction or novels, where you would expect a large and anticipated readership.

I will say this, and I've often thought about it. I'm wondering if PA (in the begining) might have been a fairly decent (or last resort) choice for children's picture books. I guess it's a moot point, because I believe that PA never did accept tiny reader pic books. But aren't children's books (picture or not) inherently difficult to publish the first time out?

I've seen some very, very good science books written by PA authors who have legitmate platforms and credentials, and always wondered why they didn't seek acceptance with a university press, who eat that stuff up.

Tri

I think you are right Tri and Jim. I don't think PA would be a good choice for fiction or even nonfiction. Some short story collections might be okay for them, but others no. It's not just the cost either. I think if you feel your book has a chance at selling (meaning popular fiction or nonfiction) than you want the promotion part of publishing. Even if you go with a small press you may not find what you need ebooks won't get you there either (for now), but you will get a leg up. I am not saying in anyway that PA does that. If you think your book could sell well then you want the best promotion.

If you have sent your book to countless publishers and everyone says no, and you've even out grown the book (you know what I mean) maybe then you could send it to PA.

Also Tri university presses can have some science subjects that they do not publish. A genral science book other than a text book would be hard to publish (like you might find in a kids section). Also I know that alternative views to the norm in science can be hard to publish at universities. Writers can get into subjects that are even taboo, but normal everday people walking around wouldn't know there was anything wrong with the book.

I really think one of the first rules of publishing should be don't buy your own book. I mean maybe a few copies if you have to for yourself, but if you are buying books to sell, I think that is an almost impossible way to go. You end up poor before you end up making it. I mean poor like not being able to eat poor. I have heard horror stories on this board about people spending $20,000 on their own book. That's crazy to me. If you can't get your copies for free send the people to order the book. Find some other way to get people to buy it. You can buy bookmarks or other low cost items to give away, but books are too much money. I think if you want to promote a POD or PA book your best bet is to win an award or maybe have good press. If the book is good it can do well in areas like this. The book to movie springs to mind. The writer might not make a whole lot from this book or the movie, but if the movie does well I bet his next book will not be published by PA.

pepperlandgirl

01-17-2006, 10:33 AM

I don't think PA is ever a good choice for anybody--not even for poets, niche non-fiction writers, or people who want copies of Aunt Selma's Best Recipes.

Because PA is all about PA. What's best for PA? What makes the most money for PA? That's all that matters. They don't care about books. They don't care about readers. They don't care about your books. They don't care about you.

They care about their bottom line. Period.

Why would you want to enter a seven year contract with a company who couldn't care less about you or your work? Why would you want to give them control over something you poured yourself into? Why would you grant them the oppurtunity to hold your work hostage?

There are better, cheaper, healthier ways to see your stuff in print. Find other avenues. The question shouldn't be, "Well, why not?" The question should be "What can you do for me?"

shelagh

01-17-2006, 01:10 PM

"What can you do for me?"

This reminded me of a sticker I saw recently on a car driven by a blonde. It said: Angel with attitude.

I looked at her and thought Your halo looks a bit tarnished.

The only really bad experience I've had since signing with PA has been on this thread.

Shelagh

AC Crispin

01-17-2006, 01:41 PM

My, my, my...

I popped into an author's chatroom over on Aol the other night, and a PA author was in there bragging about how wonderful PublishAmerica is, and urging all the other authors to sign with them. I asked a few innocuous questions, just enough to determine that the author's book had been out just a handful of weeks, then politely suggested that before touting PA to other authors, that the author wait for his/her first royalty statement.

The PublishAmerica author then demanded to know who my publisher was. When I replied HarperCollins, I got a long diatribe about how much BETTER PublishAmerica is than HC, and how I should pull the next two books in my trilogy from HC and take them to PublishAmerica so I can make some real money and have total control over my book.

The chatroom dissolved into laughter...

Oh, dear, oh dear.

Shelagh, do you think this PA author gave me good advice?

(wink)

-Ann C. Crispin
Author: STORMS OF DESTINY/HarperEos
www.accrispin.com (http://www.accrispin.com)

P.S. Victoria and I have a Writer Beware blog these days, and we mention PublishAmerica rather frequently, if anyone's interested in checking it out. There's a link to the blog on my site, or on the Writer Beware site: www.writerbeware.com (http://www.writerbeware.com)

shelagh

01-17-2006, 02:34 PM

Shelagh, do you think this PA author gave me good advice?

(wink)

Ha ha! I think the advice was about as useful as a chocolate teapot!

AnnaWhite

01-17-2006, 02:39 PM

This is not my fight. I just look at it differently, and I've said it before, I hate to see people afraid or ashamed to promote their book because of the company that published it. I also believe in many arguments that others here to not take to well. I do think that writers that publish their own books have been around for a very long time.
I understand your point, Egem, one should not feel afraid or ashamed of one's work. But think of the depression, the heartbreak, when your publisher has filled you with golden dreams and then the harsh reality smacks you hard in the face. You may like to read some of the tales in True Stories about PublishAmerica (http://www.wizardessbooks.com/html/PA_stories.htm).

My plan had been to send my book to as many publishers/agents as possible and then, if that didn't work, I would self-publish. But by self-publish I meant doing the whole thing myself - buy my ISDN number, print a thousand runs, promote. PA was the fourth or fifth publisher/agent I submitted my book to. I admit I didn't know anything about the publishing industry at the time, and I didn't think that was a problem because I thought it was like most other things in our society, where one is protected from false advertising and dishonesty. Maybe that's not always true, but I'd just emerged from spending 16 years in an Ashram (an Indian-style monastic community) and was totally unprepared for the human jungle. So I believed every word PA said. Then, when I visited the bookshops in London, one manager explained to me, with very little diplomacy, why he wouldn't stock my book. I can't tell you how I felt - and you probably wouldn't want to know.

Abandoning my book hurt like hell. But what was I to do? Waste time and money on promotion, where I would have to struggle against huge odds (such as the exorbitant cover price, short discount to bookshops, bad reputation of PA)? I decided my time would be better spent writing. I'm not a salesperson. The thought of trying to promote myself makes me supremely uncomfortable. So I'd rather write, and never be published, if that's the alternative.

I detest PA for binding my book in a seven-year contract, and refusing to release me even when they know there will be no further sales. They are as cruel as they are dishonest.

I'm not young any more. Sometimes I'm overwhelmed by the feeling that time is racing along and will run out before I know it. And that I don't have much time left to write. Writing, however, gives meaning to my life whether I'm published or not.

Christine N.

01-17-2006, 03:39 PM

I want to pick up on some of the things egem said...

"Small publishers don't edit."

Um, my publisher edits. Dave's publisher edits. I'm sure if we track down Lynn, who owns Behler publishing, she's say she edits. Nomad? Do you edit? Someone go find Nomad and drag her over here. If you're talking about University presses, those are a horse of a different color.

"Most small publishers send books to authors for a reading." Yes, this is probably true. But ask PA if they'd send free books to an author to take to a reading/signing somewhere like a con, where you have to bring your own books. See how long they laugh at you.

It's not about the authors - it's how they and their work is treated. Everyone who's finished a book should be proud. Again again again - they should learn the business if they want to have it published and done right.

Here's a little story for you - an old High School friend is now a fifth grade teacher. She's heard about my book and wants to read it to her class, then have me come in and give a talk. Cool! Not only that, she wants to buy copies for each of her 25 students. What a nice teacher, huh?

So I'm working with her and the publisher to get her a good discount so she can afford to do it. Think PA would even consider it? I really don't think they would, because it would be money out of PA's pocket.

And, for the record, no, I didn't get an advance. And it's ok - many new, small presses don't. But my royalty rate is better than PA's, and not on net.

We are not out to hurt PA authors - PA does a good enough job of that for themselves. If you dare question them, you will be berated, belittled and told not to take that tone with them. Really, what business treats people like that? That's something I tell my three year old!

Royalty period is almost over.... let's see what the excuse is this time.

D L I

01-17-2006, 04:07 PM

I watched and read the online comments about PA and realized, too late, I had made a mistake. I saw the fights for recovering full rights but knew the permanent stigma was already attached to my book.

So, playing the game, I quietly and nicely asked for non-exclusive rights. Then I received a reply stating that giving back my full rights was not in the best interest of either of us. However, I did not ask for full rights. The reply had all the earmarks of a form letter. Maybe PA is receiving many requests for the return of full rights; otherwise, a form letter would not have arrived.

Anyway, I did receive non-exclusive rights with no gag order. The stipulation was that I wait for nine months after the first printing. This was irrelevant because my first PA printing had been twenty months earlier. Again, the amendment to my contract also had the earmarks of a form letter.

I re-published using Lulu. UJ has explained Lulu time and again. Lulu is a printer affiliate. Lulu is not a publisher. Sometimes Lulu is listed as such with a book because of online-store BS, especially on Amazon. Lulu is an affiliate because Lulu books printed for Amazon sales are done by Lightning Source in Tennessee. Lulu books sold directly by Lulu are printed in New York. Hardcover editions are printed in Virginia.

The Lulu account holder is the publisher or any publishing label that the account holder creates. I have three different local authors under my label:
www.TaylorsRidge.us (http://www.TaylorsRidge.us)
I am an English professor and refuse to let mistake-laden crap or horrible writing appear under this label.

By the way, try to get a hardcover edition from PA.

To get an ISBN and list a Lulu book on Amazon and in Books in Print costs $34.95, NOT $149.95. The higher price is for global listing. To list a book only on Lulu is FREE FREE FREE FREE. Get it? The free listing is also plastered globally on Google, and even this FREE listing is global via the internet. So who really needs global listing at $149.95? Does this price justify listing for library purchase? I said "listing," not guaranteed library sales. Besides, if a book is in a library, why buy it? But if all copies are checked out, it's not even available for reading.

Global listing? At first I was excited to see that my PA book was listed worldwide at over 200 online stores in several countries: Japan, Germany, New Zealand, WOW! Yeah, right. After two years it hasn't meant squat, most likely because of the PA reputation. Being listed is one thing. Selling is another. My ooh and ahh period is over.

Using Lulu as a printer affiliate is self-publishing--period. I'd rather be self-published with a stigmatized book than to have it sit and collect dust. And yes, Lulu books are cheaper than PA, but that's obvious. However, Lulu is not cheaper than Lightning Source direct or some local printers. It's the self-publisher's choice.

The bottom line is that, yes, I moan and groan about my book's permanent stigma, but I did something about it. About your own PA book, if you have one, continue to complain, but get off your butt and do something about it.

Many in PA lack knowledge about writing. They are not writers. Yes, they are authors because they have a book, but ANYONE can be an author: Grandpa Fred's Forty Ways to Change a Flat. On here there is a tendency by some to lump all present or former PA authors into a pile of literary ignorance. This snobbery is no better than the ostracizing on the PA board of someone who is only trying to improve or help the writing.

Anyway, to those who have themselves on pedestals, don't lump all PA authors together just as I don't lump all on this board together as being on pedestals. Don't make comments, good or bad or indifferent, about me or about my book unless you've read it, either edition, PA or Lulu, and I won't look down my nose at all the ridiculous grammar mistakes on these posts, yes, mistakes done in haste and anger, but the comments about PA would be taken more seriously by the entire world and respected more by potential PA victims if the posts were written as by professional writers. Typos are one thing. I make my share. Laziness is another. No matter how correct a bar drunk is about a subject, I ignore the message.

If you want to influence real writers to avoid PA, don't distract them with sloppy posts. People who are not real writers will probably sign with them anyway. And no, I'm not the grammar police, and I'm not going to argue about correct grammar in writing posts. Excuses are a dime a dozen. Just read them on PA: letting one's hair down, conversational tone, my posts don't have anything to do with my writing ability, etc. If you are a real writer, your conscience will be your guide. If you are a real writer, you know these excuses are all BS. I prefer that my posts be better written than those found on PA. How about you?

This thread on AW is a great place, so don't get me wrong. The truth being told is always admirable.

Just one final note: read my book. I dare you.

Ken Schneider

01-17-2006, 04:11 PM

Egam, Tell me what you think is good about P.A.

The only thing that I feel a writer can get with P.A. is two free books in book format.

Books in stores can be held and opened. Books on the net can't, unless the author pays for the, open the page option, more money to recoup.

You will spend more money on marketing than you can ever recoup with P.A.

Why does P.A. catch so much grief?

They do not disclose the whole truth about what they seem to say on their site.

"Our books are in stores from sea to shining sea." When I saw that for the first time I thought that they placed books in bookstores. I had my questions answsered on their site. I saw no reason to phone them and ask those same questions.

P.A. books are in stores around the country because the writers place them there, on consignment.

Since I signed with them they have cleaned up their site, some. I read the P.A. board, and there is still uninformed confusion. Questions that go unanswered so that people will stay in the dark. The P.A. board is nothing more than a place to create excitment, and is a big rotating author sell to each other book club.

The wording they use have double meanings, and it takes time to figure this out.

If one wants their work read, P.A. is not the place to publish.

If it is two free books that one wants, and the loss of rights for seven years, then fine.

But, to have a couple books on the self just to say I'm published... It's fantasy.

Tell you what, Egem. Find someone you know who isn't a writer. Tell them you can get them published, and have them write a book without help.

Send it to P.A., and they will print it.
Why would they print books willy-nilly? What do you think they would gain from printing everything that comes through the door?
Averages show that P.A. books sell 75 copies over their life span. These are mostly sales to friends and family.

They hedge their bet on the author buying their own books, and they do.

I know what they are. I intend to continue to spread the word that they are not a good choice for writers.

Why are people mad? IMHO, because P.A. doesn't practice truth in business.

SC Harrison

01-17-2006, 04:54 PM

Hey, there's an idea. I have a son whose 12 maybe I'll go buy your book SC. I'll let you know what I think of it. I bet it is wonderful no matter who published it.

Go for it. I am about out of cigarettes :)

If you do, please donate it to the library when you're done.

DaveKuzminski

01-17-2006, 05:14 PM

You are right though. This is not my fight. I just look at it differently, and I've said it before, I hate to see people afraid or ashamed to promote their book because of the company that published it. I also believe in many arguments that others here to not take to well. I do think that writers that publish their own books have been around for a very long time. Many great writers have published their own books, and I didn't see anything so wrong with PA.

Your argument that many great authors have published their own books has nothing to do with PA. PA claims to be a publisher. You're comparing apples to oranges.
I don't think the fight against PA is right. I don't because of how it makes the authors writing for that company feel. I'll go through one time and say what I have to say. This isn't my fight, but I think some of the views here are off the mark. Please understand that I do not see this about being about PA really all that much, but rather alternative publishing.

Next, I suppose you'll claim that we shouldn't criticize the President because it will make the Republicans feel bad. Get read, Egem. Writers put their work out to be read. They're going to be criticized regardless. Same goes for businesses. They put out a product. If it's shoddy or unavailable, the company is going to be criticized regardless of how it makes the employees or supplies feel.

PA is not alternative publishing. It's vanity publishing in disguise. Vanity publishing has been around for many years. It will remain in use so long as people want their work published regardless of the market or quality of the work.
Go out and find a small press and you will see that many cannot afford to print enough books to stock bookstores. This isn't a new thing. Many of the books I read I have to order. Remember not so long ago when big bookstores like B&N and Borders weren't on every street corner. You had to go to Waldens or another small bookstore in the mall on downtown? Back then 20 years ago you had to order a ton of books. Look at the poetry section of Borders or B&N and this is still the case. You can't find most collections in books stores. And many many collections of short stories aren't stocked either.

Publishers do not print books to stock bookstores. They print in quantities that they believe the market will support. You're confusing supply and demand with what appears to be your fantasy ideas of how publishing works.

Most PODs will not edit your book, but at least PA does a once over. As you said they front the cost. Small houses do not edit either. Many only published 5 to 10 titles a year and they simply take the book that is in the best shape to be published. Some pride themselves on little editing.

On what do you base this claim that most PODs will not edit your book? If you've followed PA's history at all, you'd know that they now offer a no-editing option. You'd also know that they've admitted their editing once over, as you called it, was nothing more than a spell check and grammar check using the functions built into their word processor.

When you say traditional publisher you mean big to mid-size publishing houses.

Traditional is a term invented by PA. It has no true meaning within the publishing industry. They invented it to set themselves aside from other vanity publishers. That was stated by a PA executive in, I believe, the Washington Post article. In effect, they were admitting they were a vanity publishing house.

Many small houses pay in copies or they don't give you an advance at all.

Now you're comparing apples to oranges once more. PA claims to be the largest publisher, yet you're comparing them with small houses. Also, PA is a vanity publisher, yet you're comparing them with trade publishers or even university presses. Try to stick to what's appropriate.

Many of you are thinking that your books will be published through a large house, but if you look at the numbers their are not enough publishers per writers guys. There may not even be enough publishers for good writers or the best writers. Every year good books go unpublished and bad books get published. We all know this. Go to your bookstore and you will find bad books. It doesn't mean that YOU can't get published, but it does mean that some people will not. This is where PA come in. They are publishing people in many cases that would not get published by big houses.

It's not just a matter of how many publishers are out there. It's a matter of whether there exists a market for your book and how soon it reaches a publisher for the publisher to have resources to publish it if it is indeed publishable and has a clear market.

This is just my view. I don't agree with a lot of what is said about PA. I hate that writers are ashamed their books were published. That's all. This board is vicious to PA authors. I've been called an idiot once today I suppose it will happen once more when I publish this post.
You were called an idiot because you used inconclusive evidence and reached a disturbingly wrong result.
Overall I think things are changing a great deal in publishing. I think we will see more companies like PA. I also think ebooks and other forms of publishing will grow. This is no different than what is happening in music or in television. I read and read and read about PA, but I've also seen a book become a movie from PA, celebrities sign on with the company, books from PA win awards and even PA books sell well enough to be picked up by other big publishing houses.

No one said that PA didn't accept good manuscripts with lots of potential. What we've stated is that PA pulled the rug out from under their authors' feet. PA trashed many of their books. PA placed obstacles before them because PA doesn't want to compete in the market. PA wants a sure profit instead, even if it has to come from the pockets of its suppliers.

Don't make me repeat this or I'll call you a few choice terms that will strain even the board's tolerance of me.

egem

01-17-2006, 05:31 PM

Dave I don't have time to go through your post this morning (I willl), but I'm wondering if you've published a book through PA? You have a lot of ebooks, so you're for new forms of publishing. Did you have a book through PA?

Christine N.

01-17-2006, 05:37 PM

DLI, I'm sorry you feel like you were being picked on. PA has scammed the literary newbies as well as those who are more savvy. They accept good books as well as bad.

I don't lump the authors in with their publisher. Although, at THIS POINT in time (I don't know when you signed with PA) there is enough information out there that people should be able to make an informed decision. By informed decision, I mean they should know about how publishing is supposed to work. (Hey, PA puts on a good show, they weasel-word everything to their advantage, so that an untrained eye they look like the best thing since the combustion engine.)

I reasearched every publisher and agent I planned on submitting to before the package left my house, or I clicked send on the query letter. Could be, that back when you signed, there wasn't much info about PA. I don't hold it against you. BUT you figured out the game and got out. There are others who, no matter what facts with which they are presented, refuse to see the wolf behind the sheep's attire.

postshy

01-17-2006, 06:18 PM

Egem and Shelagh, you are making some good points and I admire the restrained way in which you are handling criticism. Yes, this is supposed to be an open Board as opposed to the closed minds over on the PAMB. You have not been banned here. If we tried to do the same on the PAMB we would have our wrists slapped (BANNED).

I defend my book with PA, I always have. Obviously you are doing the same. However, I will NOT defend PA. Yes, I think that in the early years PA, if they had not got greedy, could have provided a platform for those of us finding it hard to become published. My "beef" with PA is not only because of their questionable business practices. I can appreciate that some people do not care as long as their books are recognized. That's fine with me.

However, being cheated, lied to and ridiculed do not sit well with me. Not one of us should have to take that treatment from anyone and, in particular, not our publisher. When I submitted my book, so did my daughter, a friend and an acquaintance. None of them were happy with the experience. In fact my daughter wrote a full-colour picture book which was quickly accepted (before PA changed their policy). It has never seen the light of day on either Amazon, or Barnes and Noble. In fact it cost so much to produce the book that PA were reluctant to ship both her two free copies and her mother-in-law NEVER got the copy she ordered. My daughter's contract was infringed at many levels (but never cancelled), yet all of them walked away from confrontation with PA. I stuck around to fight.

If you take that as an average, one in four complained, the others faded away into the sunset. Does that tell you anything? Not every "unhappy" author is willing to admit that they were had. I admire the ones who step forward and join the fight to make PA "honest", not to necessarily put them out of business.

However, I repeat, if in defense of your book it is O.K. to watch other people get hurt, then you have nothing to feel guilty about, right?

Just my two cents worth.

postshy/Roberta.

shelagh

01-17-2006, 06:25 PM

Your argument that many great authors have published their own books has nothing to do with PA. PA claims to be a publisher. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Next, I suppose you'll claim that we shouldn't criticize the President because it will make the Republicans feel bad. Get read, Egem. Writers put their work out to be read. They're going to be criticized regardless. Same goes for businesses. They put out a product. If it's shoddy or unavailable, the company is going to be criticized regardless of how it makes the employees or supplies feel.

Ah em... didn't you say something about apples and oranges?
Next, I suppose you'll claim that we shouldn't criticize the President because it will make the Republicans feel bad.
Great authors, who have published their own books, have nothing to do with PA (apples and oranges.)

The Republicans did elect the President (just!) I think they should feel bad sometimes, especially, if their elected representative is heavily criticised. After all, they put him in the highest office in the land!

Any author should not feel slighted when a publisher (PA or any other publisher) is criticised. The author's work should be judged on its own merits.

Criticising a book because of the book's publisher is totally unacceptable.

Shelagh

SeanDSchaffer

01-17-2006, 06:28 PM

Snipped....

BTW good luck with your book. I love that title and I hope it turns into a series for you.

Tri

Thanks, Tri. The book might yet become a series; that's what I originally intended for it. But for right now, my work on Wuhrvia is taking center stage; I'm hoping it'll work out, as I have to re-write almost the entire book.

I'll talk to you later.

Sean
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

SeanDSchaffer

01-17-2006, 06:36 PM

Snipped for Length and Content....

Criticising a book because of the book's publisher is totally unacceptable.

Shelagh

I have yet to see anyone here criticize your book because of its publisher, Shelagh. I see plenty of criticism about your book separate from your publisher, and I see lots of criticism of your publisher. But I don't see anywhere that those two things go hand-in-hand.

Don't try to read so much into other people's posts, Shelagh.

shelagh

01-17-2006, 06:40 PM

ResearchGuy

01-17-2006, 06:42 PM

...is PA really a bad option FOR EVERYBODY?...
No, it apparently works fine for some writers with limited (primarily local) ambitions, willingness to buy in bulk and resell their own books, and whose associates and readers are indifferent that PA is a crypto-vanity press.

I know folks who are just fine with PA. One says he is "having a blast" as a PA author (he touts his "award" from a pretentiously named authors' group of which he is an officer and that is located in his home town), and another is going to PA for her third novel. They are both in a long-established writers' organization that treats PA "publishing" no differently from real publishing. (I am in the group because I enjoy the monthly meetings of one of its subgroups at IHOP and the members are nice folks, many with real publishing experience and valuable insights to share.) The "having a blast" fellow actually believes that PA books are stocked in bookstores "from sea to shining sea" (he quotes that canard) and that they are returnable in the normal trade fashion.

For those folks, PA probably was the best choice. At a minimum, it is a choice they have found no reason to regret. All I can do is to help other folks in the group to learn the rest of the story before signing a PA contract.

--Ken

shelagh

01-17-2006, 06:52 PM

I have yet to see anyone here criticize your book because of its publisher, Shelagh. I see plenty of criticism about your book separate from your publisher, and I see lots of criticism of your publisher. But I don't see anywhere that those two things go hand-in-hand.

Don't try to read so much into other people's posts, Shelagh.

Sean,

You have obviously seen criticism that I've missed. I hope it was constructive. Seems like you need a drop of your own medicine; I never mentioned my book or anyone else's.

Any author should not feel slighted when a publisher (PA or any other publisher) is criticised. The author's work should be judged on its own merits.

Criticising a book because of the book's publisher is totally unacceptable.

No mention of my book there!

Don't try to read so much into other people's posts, Sean.

Jean Marie

01-17-2006, 07:13 PM

Hi DLI! Nice to see you here http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotewelcome.gif

I'm thrilled you too survived the PA 'experience.'

One small correction, if you'll allow me. I recently self-published w/ lulu and did purchase the 149. global. The one and only reason I (or anyone would) did this is to allow local bookstores to buy the books. The same stores that already have it on their shelves from the PA debacle days, they need to reorder. Of course it's been rewritten and has a much improved cover as well.

As we all know, PA is an author mill as admitted by wee willie in his arbitration against Dolan-which Dolan won (doesn't that say something?????) To further expound on willie's word/verbage/bullshi!t-he said PA is in the business of selling books to the authors! Da-Ding!!! Straight out of willie's mouth, lurkers!!!

Listen up, people!!! Pay attention to the fact that Ingrams is advising bookstores to no longer order from them-to instead order from Lightning Source!!!

BeeBomb

01-17-2006, 07:14 PM

You know something? It amazes me when someone sneaks through the back door, trying hard not to let someone know they are late, knowing full well they are caught! It doesn't make a tinkers hoot when you arrived...just that you are here should be enough to change the rose colored glasses into a clear view of where you have been.

Shelagh, I do not know you or anything about your book...meaning I haven't read it and to tell the honest truth...probably won't. I am sure you are a very nice person; defending at all costs, someone doing you a terrible thing.

I hope your book does well, but somewhere out there is a poor soul whose life blood has been poured into a book, told it is the most wonderful thing since sliced bread (common form letter to everyone--->>"We'll give you the chance your book deserves.") and waits patiently for those royalty checks amounting to a mere pittance that sometimes never arrive. They then wonder where they went wrong...it couldn't be their book...could it? Then, lo and behold, a light bulb clicks on...I was lied to...then a little subconscious person says, "Nah, my publisher would never lie.(Grand pause) Would they? You bet your sweet little petunias, they would and it's because of the green backs going into their pockets. WAKE UP CALL! DING, DING, DING!

Had they been told in the beginning their book needed a major overhaul, they WOULDN'T BE ON THIS BOARD! Get my drift?

BeeBomb

Christine N.

01-17-2006, 07:48 PM

Check your Announcements thread, Shelagh. I believe someone purchased your book and gave a short review of it. Totally separate from this thread and PA.

I also agree that PA isn't a bad choice for those wanting to join in the author role-playing game. Even better for them if PA had reasonable cover prices and a better rep for fulfilling orders in a timely fashion.

If they did that, they'd probably make a lot of people very happy. But, for people who want to get in the game for real, PA is a wrong turn. Some get the feeling that it's a stepping stone, when it's really a road block. NO reputable publisher or agent will see your PA book as a publishing credit. Thats is NOT to say that they won't give your work consideration, but you will be a new author as far as they are concerned.

This comes into play when all you send is a query, and no pages, I think. As long as you have a great query and say nothing of your PA book, you stand the same chance as anyone else. It just doesn't count.

If you want a career as a writer, stay away from PA. (Hey, that rhymes!)

shelagh

01-17-2006, 08:01 PM

Had they been told in the beginning their book needed a major overhaul, they WOULDN'T BE ON THIS BOARD! Get my drift?

No. You've lost me. Totally. Maybe it makes sense to those with big egos, but it means nothing to me. Not a thing.

James D. Macdonald

01-17-2006, 08:05 PM

I'm a bit confused about the order-from-LSI-rather-than-Ingram deal.

Ingram owns LSI.

We're told that some PA books are now returnable when ordered through Ingram. I suspect that books ordered directly from LSI aren't returnable.

I expect that this will all clarify one of these days.

The point about the short discounts and the high cover prices and the lack of returnability is this: Even if you've written a brilliant book, even if you do everything PA suggests, and you do it perfectly, you will still be unable to get your book stocked outside of a handful of your local bookstores, if then. The total number sold will be tiny.

The stories that PA tells about how bookstore chains order books are fairy tales. The stories PA tells about how if the author "gets the ball rolling" locally that PA will take the book "to the next level" are fibs.

Don't you think that with 16,000+ "happy authors" that one would have managed the trick by now if it were possible?

Shelagh, I believe that you've been doing your best to promote your book. (I'll even help out: her book is Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/141377136X/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/)). Do you think that, come March, you'd be willing to share with us how many books your royalty reports show you've sold in the year it's been out?

shelagh

01-17-2006, 08:08 PM

Check your Announcements thread, Shelagh. I believe someone purchased your book and gave a short review of it. Totally separate from this thread and PA.

Christine,

I checked the thread. Thanks for your post and your compliment. I hope your book does well. It's got a lot going for it. Well done!

Shelagh

Christine N.

01-17-2006, 08:12 PM

The point, Shelagh dear, is that if someone had been honest with them about the flaws of their book, and they learned their craft and fixed those flaws, they wouldn't have been 'published' by PA, and therefore missed the scam. Then, they wouldn't be here.

Run down and read Ken's very well thought out crit of your book. Whoops, you already did that. And you're welcome - we all have to take our good reviews where we can get them!

I, personally will not buy a PA book. Not because I cannot be assured of quality, which is besides the point, but a) my book budget won't allow it, and 2) I won't line the pocket of those villians. Sounds harsh, but most of the retail price goes to PA, not to the authors, making my purchase their gain. Some won't shop at Wal-mart or Target because of their business practices - I'm only doing the same.

Jean Marie

01-17-2006, 08:15 PM

Christine N.

01-17-2006, 08:16 PM

Yikes. Hope that tidbit doesn't make it to the PAMB.

Sheryl Nantus

01-17-2006, 08:18 PM

I won't buy a book that I can't see, feel and flip through before I purchase.

Thus the only books I buy are the ones in bookstores.

And since PA books aren't in bookstores, I'll never have a problem with trying to decide whether to buy one or not... and I'm not going to special order in an overpriced tome that takes two weeks to arrive!

SC Harrison

01-17-2006, 08:18 PM

What does a sales ranking of "none" mean? Even books that are barely moving have 2+ million. Unless Shelagh's sales are exclusively in the U.K., which I find hard to believe. Something is amiss.

Sheryl Nantus

01-17-2006, 08:19 PM

What does a sales ranking of "none" mean? Even books that are barely moving have 2+ million. Unless Shelagh's sales are exclusively in the U.K., which I find hard to believe. Something is amiss.

well, I think Amazon's numbers are flaky at the best of times - that's why they don't mean much if you're trying to track sales, imo.

shelagh

01-17-2006, 08:20 PM

Shelagh, I believe that you've been doing your best to promote your book. (I'll even help out: her book is Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/141377136X/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/)). Do you think that, come March, you'd be willing to share with us how many books your royalty reports show you've sold in the year it's been out?
Jim,

You've already asked me about this, and I know that you are as curious to know as I am!

In July 2004, I set up my website to raise money for cancer research. The amount of money I raise will be made public on my website after I have signed and sent the cheque to the charity of my choice.

I'm expecting that this will be a small amount of money. It will not reflect the number of books sold. I will decide if I am going to deduct any costs I have incurred or if I send the total amount, or even add a donation of my own. This is between me and my husband and no-one else.

The small amount will reflect the small number of books sold, but will not tell you the actual number.

Thank you for adding the link to my site on your post.

Shelagh :)

Christine N.

01-17-2006, 08:20 PM

A sales ranking of none means they haven't sold any copies. You don't get a ranking until someone orders one.

Sheryl Nantus

01-17-2006, 08:21 PM

Jim,

You've already asked me about this, and I know that you are as curious to know as I am!

In July 2004, I set up my website to raise money for cancer research. The amount of money I raise will be made public on my website after I have signed and sent the cheque to the charity of my choice.

I'm expecting that this will be a small amount of money. It will not reflect the number of books sold. I will decide if I am going to deduct any costs I have incurred or if I send the total amount, or even add a donation of my own. This is between me and my husband and no-one else.

The small amount will reflect the small number of books sold, but will not tell you the actual number.

Thank you for adding the link to my site on your post.

Shelagh :)

in other words, no.

SC Harrison

01-17-2006, 08:26 PM

A sales ranking of none means they haven't sold any copies. You don't get a ranking until someone orders one.

Yeah, but...at least we know Ken bought one, and I assume he got it from Amazon, where he put his review. Right?

shelagh

01-17-2006, 08:31 PM

Run down and read Ken's very well thought out crit of your book.
I see that Ken is risking losing yet more reputation points! I presume that's the reason for now you see it, now you don't, now you do.

Did you say you had a three-year-old? Well, seems like there's one here too!

Shelagh

ResearchGuy

01-17-2006, 08:34 PM

Yeah, but...at least we know Ken bought one, and I assume he got it from Amazon, where he put his review. Right?
I ordered it at my local Barnes & Noble. I post reviews on books I have read (the ones I feel like commenting on), whether acquired via Amazon, a local bookstore, a book club, or even simply borrowed from a library.

--Ken

LloydBrown

01-17-2006, 08:39 PM

I see that Ken is risking losing yet more reputation points! I presume that's the reason for now you see it, now you don't, now you do.

I imagine it'll be a net gain.

Kevin Yarbrough

01-17-2006, 08:55 PM

It may be just as hard to sell a book in a bookstore. If you do not have a promotion or some other way of getting word to the reader it is very hard for a person to go in and randomly pick a book up that you have written. Most book sales come from bookstores, but remember most book sales come from a top tier of writers, ones who have promotion or what have you. What I'm saying is putting a book in a bookstore does not make it sell.

Yeah, but when you sign on with a company that says your book will be in bookstores from sea to shining sea that is what you expect. Is PA's books in all bookstores as they claimed on their website? No. It is false advertising. I went with them thinking that my book would be in bookstores and it isn't, I couldn't even get bookstores to order it. But who cares about the false advertising and misleading information they put on their website to get people to sign with them as long as they don't charge you anything, right?

And my book might not have sold a lot in bookstores but it would have sold more than to just my family and friends who bought it. And I buy books from new writers all the time. If the book sounds good I will pick it up, so your sentence "it is very hard for a person to go in and randomly pick a book up that you have written." is not really accurate. That is what bookstores are made for, for you to browse, pick it up and look at it, read a few lines/pages. The top tier writers were new at one time until people started picking up their books.

Most PODs will not edit your book, but at least PA does a once over. As you said they front the cost. Small houses do not edit either. Many only published 5 to 10 titles a year and they simply take the book that is in the best shape to be published. Some pride themselves on little editing.

PA didn't do any editing on my book at all, in fact they almost forgot to do my book within the year alotted to them. They formatted it to book form and sent it to me and I found all the same mistakes in it I had in it when I sent it in.

Now PA has this fast track option where there is no editing option so there is no once over. What do you get with the fast track option? Your book out faster without a once through their spell checker, that's it. Did you ever have an editor email you and talk to you about your book, explain things? I sure didn't.

Every year good books go unpublished and bad books get published. We all know this. Go to your bookstore and you will find bad books. It doesn't mean that YOU can't get published, but it does mean that some people will not. This is where PA come in. They are publishing people in many cases that would not get published by big houses.

Yeah they publish people that wouldn't get published by the big boys, like the masterpiece "Purple Pony". The work of wonder that was only thirty pages over and over that PA wanted to "publish". Even a bad book at one of the big boys would have been better than that, at least their stories would have had a middle and and end. Plus the big boys would have rejected it and moved on instead of trying to arrest me and charge me with fraud even though PA's lawyer knew there was no way the case was reasonable. It was a scare tactic. Do you see the big boys do things like this to their authors? No. Even if they pay an advance on a book that doesn't get delievered they just get the money back, or not, and move on. They don't involve the cops, which is a civil dispute and the cops aren't allowed to get involved in anyways, but hey, what does PA care about following the law right?

I think we will see more companies like PA. I also think ebooks and other forms of publishing will grow....I read and read and read about PA, but I've also seen a book become a movie from PA, celebrities sign on with the company, books from PA win awards and even PA books sell well enough to be picked up by other big publishing houses.

You are right here, I think more companies will pop up that are just like PA and that is a shame and when that happens there will be threads dedicated to them here.

As for the PA book becoming a movie? Did PA have anything to do with that? Most likely not. To much work. The author did it and I can bet PA will spin it to make it look like they helped. They might even try to take part of the money, who knows.

As for the awards? PA had nothing to do with those, it was all the authors, but they sure like to make you think they did. They like to put it up in lights, port it around their website. They strut around like a rooster with its chest out even though they don't do crap. They make a lot of noise, that's about it. PA has never nominated one of their books for an award. The authors do that themselves. At a big boy publisher the publishers nominate the books, not the authors.

But if you are happy with them, then good for you, but don't expect us that have real problems to stay quiet just because you are happy. They lied to me to get me to sign with them, they didn't edit my book, they didn't get me in bookstores, they tried to have me arrested, they let their watchdog smear me on their forum. Yeah, they are a good choice for me.

Sheryl Nantus

01-17-2006, 08:57 PM

Yeah, but...at least we know Ken bought one, and I assume he got it from Amazon, where he put his review. Right?

actually, the tale of the ordering process is over in the other thread where he details how the process went.

as for the "threat" of rep points... Shelagh should be grateful that he went to all the trouble to order, read and review it. Considering that it had to be special-ordered and all...

which, again, is why most PA books go unsold. Unless the author personally walks in and places the book either on consignment (money spent by the author yet again) or harasses the manager into placing an order (usually against company policy) it's unlikely you'll ever see a PA book on a shelf.

and then the strikes against it continue - no editing, usually overpriced... etc.

Sparhawk

01-17-2006, 09:00 PM

I see that Ken is risking losing yet more reputation points! I presume that's the reason for now you see it, now you don't, now you do.

Did you say you had a three-year-old? Well, seems like there's one here too!

Shelagh

Shelagh,

I read Ken's review. Instead of calling him a three year old, why not ask yourself the following;

Is there merit in his critique?

Is there a possible flaw in the plot of your book?

Can you learn something from what he stated and apply it in making your next work better?

Let's be blunt; crtiticism, even constructive criticism stings. One must put the ego in check and move forward. The first real critique of my work from a legitimate publisher was brutal. But, after my two minute whining session I went back and reread every word and used the critique as a guide to improving not only my book, but my writing technique.

I am a novice writer and there are so many here that are more qualified to give advice than myself. Learn from honest, constructive criticism.

I wish you luck with your next writing project. I need tro get back to my third novel.

ResearchGuy

01-17-2006, 09:00 PM

...I presume that's the reason for now you see it, now you don't, now you do....
Off topic here ... but in any event, I pared that post down to a bare minimum, having decided that the less said the better. But I was specifically asked by an AW member to put it back. So I did (in this thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23634)). You are welcome.

To perhaps approach the topic ... I was struck by the disconnect between the rave comments by a couple of PA authors plus those of the astronomer (whose comments persuaded me that the book was worth purchasing) and what I read with my own eyes. I paid for the book, read as much of it as I could push myself through (reading to p. 168 and skimming pp. 169-197), and am entitled to comment honestly.

I would not have said another word or put the deleted paragraphs back, but the potshot taken at me (the false albeit sly suggestion that I had read the book only to hunt for spelling errors and the like) led to the request to put the full critique back where it was.

--Ken

BeeBomb

01-17-2006, 09:02 PM

Well, Jim, all I can tell you is that when I was visiting a bookstore yesterday, that's what I was told by the individual who does the ordering. They're helping another PA author. In the process of trying to get the book, they went the normal channels, which didn't work. They then went to Ingrams who directed them to LS for ordering. They were also told to do so from now on. I guess that's one way PA would make returnable books non-returnable and blame it on someone else http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

***********************************

The email below is what I recieved from PA.

The process of making all of PublishAmerica's books returnable is a gradual one, and the status of your books has not yet been updated. Your books are scheduled to be made returnable for a full refund--if ordered through Ingram--on January 1, 2006.

Please keep in mind, of course, that individual bookstores update their databases on their own timetables, which means that the bookstore may not have correct information for a few days.

Have a nice day.

Thank you,

Marilyn

Author Support Team

***********
As to the sales rank on Amazon, I found this out simply by ordering 5 of my books for a book signing. I didn't go through PA because of NO royalties being paid on my 5 copies...thus Amazon, knowing PA would have to pay (and I have proof!)

My book was sitting at roughly 3,000,000...ordering 5 books put it at 250,000. So when a book is around those numbers, you can be sure you are due royalties on at least 5 books.

BeeBomb

D L I

01-17-2006, 09:07 PM

Christine N.,
I'm just venting. Sometimes I get so frustrated at that decision I made (2003) that I must vent or explode. Maybe if potential victims see my frustration, they'll want to avoid their own.

Jean Marie,
Thanks for the welcome. Yes, I survived and will keep on in spite of the past. Thank you for adding that book store purchase info about Lulu. I may even buy that global thing in the future since Lulu deducts the Basic program charge from it anyway, even at a later date. I would have gladly paid $149.95 to avoid the stigma that I must now endure. Hey, that total equals only 10 of my PA books, retail, that is. Go figure.
----

I ask for understanding for those of us who are stuck with a present or former PA book. Publishers that will touch a previously published book are few and far between. Whether full rights or non-exclusive rights are returned or given, the book has been previously published. We have very few options. Give us a break.

shelagh

01-17-2006, 09:10 PM

I imagine it'll be a net gain.
...and a 'net loss.

Dawno

01-17-2006, 09:14 PM

Shelagh's review, Ken's rep points - all off topic. Please take that stuff over to the NEPAT Overflow, ok?

DaveKuzminski

01-17-2006, 09:17 PM

Egem, the short answer is NO. I do not have a book "published" or printed through PA. I have never submitted a manuscript to them.

Ah em... didn't you say something about apples and oranges?

Great authors, who have published their own books, have nothing to do with PA (apples and oranges.)
The great authors phrase refers to self-publishing. PA is a vanity publisher.
The Republicans did elect the President (just!) I think they should feel bad sometimes, especially, if their elected representative is heavily criticised. After all, they put him in the highest office in the land!
Egem made the statement about not criticising a publisher because it made PA authors feel bad. I provided an analogy to show how silly that argument is.
Any author should not feel slighted when a publisher (PA or any other publisher) is criticised. The author's work should be judged on its own merits.

Criticising a book because of the book's publisher is totally unacceptable.

ShelaghNow you're twisting the argument to mean something different. Stick to one side or the other, Shelagh. You can't have it both ways.

Jean Marie

01-17-2006, 09:34 PM

***********************************

The email below is what I recieved from PA.

The process of making all of PublishAmerica's books returnable is a gradual one, and the status of your books has not yet been updated. Your books are scheduled to be made returnable for a full refund--if ordered through Ingram--on January 1, 2006.

Please keep in mind, of course, that individual bookstores update their databases on their own timetables, which means that the bookstore may not have correct information for a few days.

Have a nice day.

Thank you,

Marilyn

Author Support Team
BeeBomb

Exactly, Bee. Which is why I posted what I did. And that's fresh off the press, if you will. Straight from the ordering person's mouth at the bookstore. And they got it directly from Ingrams. Order from LS, not from us, they said. No, no. Place those dang things w/ LS-outta here, go, scram. Makes one wonder about them criminals down there in Frederickville.

Anywhoo, that's just what the ordering person had to do knowing full well that the store will be stuck w/ 'em if they don't sell. But, that's the breaks they say, they're all about helping local authors http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

BeeBomb

01-17-2006, 09:53 PM

Yup, Jean Marie...two sets of standards. I guess it it a deliberate whack on a persons meaning of what "is"--> is! Sounds pretty screwy, huh? (pun intended.)

Bee

shelagh

01-17-2006, 10:11 PM

Shelagh, do you think this PA author gave me good advice?

Of course he could have been pulling your leg. I wouldn't be able to resist the temptation!

NicoleJLeBoeuf

01-17-2006, 10:16 PM

For those folks, PA probably was the best choice.I have to vehemently disagree with you on this. PA is the "best choice" for no one. PA are guilty of several unforgiveable sins that, objectively speaking, anyway, cancel out any sort of "if you just want two free copies and aren't bothered about sales" benefit:

* They are inexcusably rude, even abusive, to their customers. They actively try to make their customers feel ashamed of questioning them in any way. (cf. any "don't take that tone with us" letter quoted on this very board; do a search-in-thread to see it.)

* They trap authors in a seven-year contract with no reversion clause. Attempts to have rights reverted most often results in the abuse described above.

* Often they don't ship orders; they sometimes withhold what little royalties are earned; they are on record at least once for having refused an author's accountant access to that author's sales records (cf. Phil Dolan's testimony and arbitration results). Even if an author doesn't care about never seeing a royalty check, surely it is a bad thing to support a company who is obstructive and downright dishonest in their business practices.

* It is beyond question that they are actively selling a number of books whose rights they had returned (cf. Jean Marie and Dee). This is an outright violation of copyright and ought not to be supported.

For these reasons, I maintain that PA is the "right choice" for nobody, no one at all.

At a minimum, it is a choice they have found no reason to regret.Now that I can't dispute. But a scam victim's lack of regret does not excuse the scammer nor make that scammer "the right choice" for anyone. If a scam victim isn't upset, it's an indication of the scammer's effectiveness at his or her illicit business, not of the scammer's alleged appropriateness to the victim.

Sorry to go on--you're not the first nor yet the least experienced author to have said "PA is probably OK in these certain circumstances." If I sound frustrated, it's not with you--it's with the opinion, and the frequency with which I see it repeated. I simply cannot conscience cutting PA even that much slack.

postshy

01-17-2006, 10:17 PM

Don't get me wrong, but I can fully understand WHY you have not been banned from the PAMB:). It is not hard to figure out. Jenna does not ban without a good reason, so I will not question why you were banned from AW.

Speaking just for myself, I have no problem with others expressing their views as long as they respect their fellow posters, and do not mislead others.

postshy/Roberta

mdin

01-17-2006, 10:26 PM

The author's work should be judged on its own merits.

Criticising a book because of the book's publisher is totally unacceptable.

I can't agree with this. I say this as a reader, not a writer.

Maybe in Happy Happy Fun World where gumdrops fall like rain and bunny rabbits fart rainbows will everything be equal, and books will be judged solely on their own merits. Unfortunately for all of us, we live in a world saturated by books, and most of them are crap. It seems to me (again, as a reader) that the number of good books coming out each year is pretty uniform. But the number of books coming out is skyrocketing.

How do we decide what books to read? Reviews, even though I read them, are now useless. Word of mouth is good, but I only trust a few people for that. I do order some small press books over the net, but I prefer to walk into a store and find it there without having to wait for it. It helps that the book doesn't cost twenty dollars also.

I will always criticize a book based on publisher before I even read it. We all know a big-name publisher is not an ironclad guarantee of quality and a vanity publisher does not always mean the book is crap. Not always, but usually. Couple that with the fact I usually pay half the price for a commercial book, plus I have friends who've also read it, plus I don't have to order it on the Internet to get it, plus I'm not giving money to an organization I feel is corrupt and evil... blablabla

Not only is it acceptable to judge a book by its publisher, but it's probably a good idea.

It's terrible some great books will forever remain undiscovered. But that's certainly not my fault. There's plenty of other great books out there.

ResearchGuy

01-17-2006, 10:29 PM

...Sorry to go on--you're not the first nor yet the least experienced author to have said "PA is probably OK in these certain circumstances." If I sound frustrated, it's not with you--it's with the opinion, and the frequency with which I see it repeated. I simply cannot conscience cutting PA even that much slack.
I hear you. Nonetheless, month after month of attending meetings with those folks, talking with them and listening to them (and I mean exactly those specific individuals) has influenced my view. If I thought that the reading public had been unfairly deprived as a result of their books not being in bookstores, it would be a different matter, if you get my drift.

--Ken

mdin

01-17-2006, 10:46 PM

Ken,

Do you think if those people had continued to be rejected would they have done anything differently in regards to their craft?

SC Harrison

01-17-2006, 11:09 PM

Ken,

Do you think if those people had continued to be rejected would they have done anything differently in regards to their craft?

I know this was directed at Ken, but I would like to make an observation that has not been hit on (much).

People like to compare the difference between paying up front or on the back end, but what about those who go with PA because they can't afford either? Without PA's "we don't want your money, we want your book" message, how many would not even try to get published? Once they go this route, many find themselves purchasing books that they can't afford, because now the book exists, and they feel compelled to facilitate the sales, due to internal and external pressures.

To say PA provides a service to people who wouldn't otherwise have a chance is wrong. To say that PA causes people who would otherwise not spend money to spend it would be more accurate.

NancyMehl

01-17-2006, 11:10 PM

I used to tell people that PA might be a good choice under certain circumstances, but I don't say that anymore.

Any business entity that uses manipulation, deceipt, threats, and intimidation the way PA does, should be avoided at all costs. For crying out loud - PA actually sent people to writer's homes in an attempt to frighten them! This isn't a company to mess around with. In my humble opinion, those who reign at the top of PA are more than a little unhinged!

Nancy

Berry

01-17-2006, 11:16 PM

They are inexcusably rude, even abusive, to their customers. They actively try to make their customers feel ashamed of questioning them in any way.

You know, for most publishers the customers are the people who buy the books, not the authors. The authors are more like business partners, or wholesale suppliers. That PA even makes us think of authors as "customers" is a measure of their badness.

ResearchGuy

01-17-2006, 11:25 PM

Ken,

Do you think if those people had continued to be rejected would they have done anything differently in regards to their craft?
I suspect that one of them (a poet) never submitted his manuscript elsewhere. As for the novelist ... I just do not know whether she had submitted her first manuscript anywhere else. I would not be surprised if she had not.

PA sent her on a trip to Iceland and gave her the celebrity treatment when her first novel appeared, so I am sure she did not hesitate a moment in sending her sequel to PA. She now is planning on a third with PA.

--Ken

Lady of Prose

01-17-2006, 11:28 PM

Do you think if those people had continued to be rejected would they have done anything differently in regards to their craft?

I would like to answer the question from the perspective of an author scammed by PA.

With valuable critique, I would have gleaned a wonderful book. I now know from educating myself, that the characters, plot and subplots or style would not have had to be changed. Corrections in some grammar and mechanics should have been made. Some scenes and characters definitely needed to be fleshed out. In addition, of course, the errors added by PA would not be in the work. I think the latter has been the most frustrating thing--the "edited" work had more errors than when submitted, and PA refused to correct those when I pointed them out. They really got with the "tone" at the end of my final pdf file corrections.

Referring to some comments about each work being judged on its own merit. In order for a work to be judged or critiqued, it has to first be purchased or received and read. Which is near to impossible with PA's business model. Unless the author goes consignment, gives away, or re-sells their books--they are not read, and therefore cannot be judged on their own merit.

I don't know about the UK but stores in America for the most part are adamantly refusing to stock PA books. On the slim chance that they do, the price alone is a great determent.

In short--there is NOTHING GOOD to say about PA. NOTHING. Under no circumstances is it a good idea for any reason to sign with them. The stigma of being a PA author is a lasting stigma and should not be mentioned in any future submissions.

CJLewis

01-17-2006, 11:30 PM

And on another note: this is important. Ingrams is now advising bookstores to order books from Lightning Source instead of from them OR PA. And that's on the off-chance that a bookstore will even order one. However, that's the latest news.

__________________
Is this a sign of things to come? Are things beginning to unravel for PA? When wholesalers start dumping a publisher, you have to wonder. ESPECIALLY when LSI is a subsidiary for Ingram. I wonder if Baker & Taylor have done the same thing? Their new "returns" policy has just received the double whammy. 1. Discount too short to matter, and 2. Can't order through wholesaler.

Of course, this also means that sales will become "hidden." You used to be able to call the inquiry number for a record of sales--it was all PA authors had to track sales. Now, it will be totally blind.
Hmmm.

CJ Lewis

James D. Macdonald

01-17-2006, 11:37 PM

Now, it will be totally blind.

I'm certain that a subpoena will get Lightning Source to reveal exactly how many copies of a particular book they printed, when, and exactly how much money they sent to PA.

ResearchGuy

01-17-2006, 11:55 PM

I...In order for a work to be judged or critiqued, it has to first be purchased or received and read. Which is near to impossible with PA's business model....
I would say not so much "impossible" as improbable. Extremely improbable.

Yes, one can easily enough order PA books, BUT that is a far cry from real accessibility, as first you have to know about that particular book and have a reason for ordering it, waiting, and paying the hefty price.

The problem is all the worse for children's books, typically priced at $5 to $9 for trade paperbacks (printed on pulp paper, usually, but serviceable), or about a quarter to less than half the price of a more-or-less comparable PA book. Also all the worse for the fact that kids like to pick their reading (have to see it first) and that parents who are buying are not insensitive to price and want to know what they are buying, too. Not in bookstores = invisible for all practical purposes. Who is going to order a pig in a poke at a premium price when a trip to the bookstore finds lots of worthwhile books at a fraction of the cost? Oh ... one other thing ... kids (like adults, I suppose) like to read what their friends are reading. Well, that is not going to be PA books.

--Ken

James D. Macdonald

01-18-2006, 12:21 AM

Please note that again, in this case, the reader was a person who the author knows by name.

Aconite

01-18-2006, 12:27 AM

Jenna does not ban without a good reason, so I will not question why you were banned from AW.
Shelagh thoughtfully deleted all her pre-banning posts that would have made it quite clear why she was banned from AW. Lurkers may wish to consider why she thought it necessary to do so.

SC Harrison

01-18-2006, 12:46 AM

Yes, one can easily enough order PA books

From my experience, not even this is a sure thing. My mom tried to order my book at the BAM (store), and they told her she would have to order it from their website (Amazon affiliate?). They refused to do it from the store, even though they could see it on the computer screen.

I've had two Borders incidents, where people I know placed bonafide orders that were subsequently canceled via post card a few weeks later. When I complained to Author Support, I got a "You are mistaken" message in return. Thanks for nothing.

I can't adequately describe how embarassing these events are, but I can say this: I do not have the patience of Job. I have no proof, but I am certain PA somehow discourages bookstore orders to push authors into buying themselves to ensure availability.

MadScientistMatt

01-18-2006, 01:01 AM

The author's work should be judged on its own merits.

Criticising a book because of the book's publisher is totally unacceptable.

I can't agree with this. I say this as a reader, not a writer... Not only is it acceptable to judge a book by its publisher, but it's probably a good idea.

It's terrible some great books will forever remain undiscovered. But that's certainly not my fault. There's plenty of other great books out there.

I would like to add another valid reason for judging a book by its publisher.

It would only be possible to judge an author's work on its own merits if you were always reading exactly the product that the author had submitted to the publisher, rather than a book put together by a team including an author, editor(s), a typesetter, an illustrator, etc. That would be like a normal consumer trying to judge the guy who designed his refrigerator "on the engineer's own merits" without including the team who actually assembled the refrigerator and could be just as responsible for problems in the fridge's performance.

And if PA and a commercial publisher were to create a book from the same manuscript, you would, indeed, see very real differences. If it were a good manuscript to start with, a commercial publisher would have an editor go through it carefully by hand and see if the writer could fix structural or plot mistakes. Then they'd put some real work into the cover, slap a competative price on it, and send it out to bookstores. PA would instead "give it a once-over" with automated spell checking and computerized grammar checking that would be as likely to put errors into the book as take them out, pay no attention to structural or plot issues, then slap together a clip-art cover and stamp it with a horribly inflated price. So even if they both started with a good manuscript, a commercial publisher would churn out a better finished product. And if they started with a bad manuscript, a commercial publisher would just toss it in the circular file rather than release a bad book.

People judge all kinds of products by the companies that make them. If people don't do that with books, it's mostly because the worse publishers don't make it into stores.

shelagh

01-18-2006, 01:37 AM

Shelagh should be grateful that he went to all the trouble to order, read and review it. Considering that it had to be special-ordered and all...
I didn't ask anyone to buy my book. I asked Sheryl to phone her local bookstore and ask if it would be possible to order my book. Ken jumped in and said, "You're on Shelagh," and went ahead and placed an order, for which I thanked him (I even blew him a kiss!)

So, I didn't ask Ken to order my book, or to read my book, or to review my book and I certainly didn't ask Ken to add a review on amazon.com, especially since amazon.com asks for customer reviews, that is customers who buy books online. Not videos, cd's or any other merchandise, but BOOKS.

If this was a way of helping me, then I would sooner sup with the devil -- at least then I would know what I was dealing with.

Shelagh

DeePower

01-18-2006, 01:43 AM

Aconite

01-18-2006, 01:47 AM

So, I didn't ask Ken to order my book, or to read my book, or to review my book and I certainly didn't ask Ken to add a review on amazon.com, especially since amazon.com asks for customer reviews, that is customers who buy books online. Not videos, cd's or any other merchandise, but BOOKS.
That's odd. I could swear I'd read reviews on amazon.com of CDs and videos sold by amazon.com.

If this was a way of helping me, then I would sooner sup with the devil -- at least then I would know what I was dealing with.
1) Reviews are not meant to help the author. They're meant to help potential customers make decisions about whether or not to buy/use the item. They're not there to make the author feel good, but to present an opinion.

2) People who seek to improve their craft and become better writers are helped by critiques--even (or maybe especially) negative ones. Getting snippy about reviews you don't like is tacky, amateurish, and sad (cf. Anne Rice).

Sheryl Nantus

01-18-2006, 01:49 AM

I didn't ask anyone to buy my book.

you can't be serious - you've been doing that since the first day you posted here.

I asked Sheryl to phone her local bookstore and ask if it would be possible to order my book. Ken jumped in and said, "You're on Shelagh," and went ahead and placed an order, for which I thanked him (I even blew him a kiss!)

So, I didn't ask Ken to order my book, or to read my book, or to review my book and I certainly didn't ask Ken to add a review on amazon.com, especially since amazon.com asks for customer reviews, that is customers who buy books online. Not videos, cd's or any other merchandise, but BOOKS.

wait, wait, wait... so ALL of those other reviews of your book from fellow PA authors and ALL of the other PA book reviews are ALL from purchases made online at Amazon.com? They've ALL bought your book and no PDF files were tossed back and forth through emails and so forth?

I doubt that severely.

and why, WHY would you encourage us to buy your book and then give no feedback - unless it was positive, of course.

you were all bells and whistles while Ken jumped through the hoops to order, re-order and then pay for your book and then you snub him when he offers an honest review. Then you make snide comments in other posts about his review without directly commenting on it other than to toss up some kid's review from an unknown website as a rebuttal.

being a writer means taking the good with the bad - your thrill of having at least ONE person buy your book should have been also knowing that you would get at least one honest review from someone not directly related to you by blood or by friendship or by PA association.

If this was a way of helping me, then I would sooner sup with the devil -- at least then I would know what I was dealing with.

you already did that - when you signed with PA.

shelagh

01-18-2006, 02:29 AM

Ooooooo Sheryl, I love it when you get mad.

NancyMehl

01-18-2006, 02:31 AM

you can't be serious - you've been doing that since the first day you posted here.

Amen.

One thing I've learned....

If you're trolling sites so that people will order your book - don't go to places that are knee deep in published authors. Authors are too busy working on their own stuff. They don't order books from their forum mates very often.

I've been hanging around here a long time. I think the only person who ever ordered my book was Dawno - and that was only because we share an aurora!

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I am saying that this isn't the place to make sales. If we started buying everyone's books - we'd be broke!

Besides...not too many people here would consider buying a PA book. We have no intention of lining PA pockets.

So...looking for customers here is like looking for food at a PA convention. Good luck! (I started to say something else but decided it was too mean.)

Nancy

egem

01-18-2006, 02:35 AM

Egam said:
and I ran across the PA article from the Washington Post. I followed Dee Power's name back to this sight,

I was never quoted in the Washington Post article. So you couldn't have followed my name back to Aw.

Why would you make this up?

Dee
Sorry Dee I was making a long story short. I found the WP article first, and then I started looking on this subject. I believe I went from the Publishers Weekly article to here. I just know I passed over AW a few times in the search and never stopped until I followed your name back to this site. At the time I think AW was on page 2 of a google search (when Publish America was the keyword).

DeePower

01-18-2006, 02:41 AM

interest you?

Dee

rekirts

01-18-2006, 02:46 AM

1) Reviews are not meant to help the author. They're meant to help potential customers make decisions about whether or not to buy/use the item. They're not there to make the author feel good, but to present an opinion.

That's an excellent point, but it would be news to most PA authors.

ResearchGuy

01-18-2006, 02:47 AM

... at least one honest review ...
The sad thing is that I omitted commentary on some other problems that jumped out as soon as I started reading some successful children's books to see what makes them tick and read the pertinent parts of a good book on writing for children.

Sigh. I just thought I was buying a very good (albeit pricey) book that had been unfairly neglected by the publishing establishment -- an impression that was the result of reading that glowing review. I had thought I would be saying, "It is a shame that this delightful book is lost to the real book trade," and thought it at least barely possible that scattered purchases through bookstores would annoy PA into terminating the contract so that the manuscript could find a new home.

:-/

But who knows ... maybe someone else will read it and find that I am completely wrong -- and say so here via a point-by-point refutation.

Anyone want to volunteer?

--Ken

Ol' Fashioned Girl

01-18-2006, 02:53 AM

Besides...not too many people here would consider buying a PA book. We have no intention of lining PA pockets.

I'm with you, Nancy. And 99.9% of us here who are PA authors wouldn't ASK, for the same reason.

For some reason, not too long ago, I removed egem from my 'ignore' list. I don't know why in the universe I did that now. I guess I thought s/he'd actually learned something. However, once I put Shelaugh (sp?) on 'ignore', I never looked back. The one good thing is that once again they've both given us the opportunity to educate the masses. Thanks, y'all!

rekirts

01-18-2006, 03:01 AM

The one good thing is that once again they've both given us the opportunity to educate the masses. Thanks, y'all!
I was thinking the exact same thing. The last few days on this thread have resulted in a pretty complete summary of the problems with PA, and all within a few pages. I know it's all been said before, but from time to time it all needs to be said again. :)

shelagh

01-18-2006, 03:01 AM

Nancy,

Thanks for the advice -- that's a sincere thank you and I wish I'd stuck to my original response to Ken's offer to buy my book. On the Author Forum, Ken said in one of his posts that he never bought books online, but if ever he saw my book in a bookstore he would buy it there and then on the spot. I responded by saying that if he did, not to tell me, because if the only reason he was prepared to buy my book was because it was in a bookstore, then I didn't want him to buy it.

I felt that the only reason he should buy my book would be because he wanted to either read it or give it to someone else to read.

When Ken offered to buy my book, I should have said thank you but no thank you. There was an ulterior motive, but it wasn't to get feedback about the quality of my novel. I wanted to know if it was possible to order my book in a store in the US.

Only a few months ago I had been subjected to a barrage of questioning about whether or not my book was available in bookstores in Britain.

I simply wanted to know if my book could be ordered in bookstores in the US. In the UK, gentlemen do not behave the way Ken did. The critique should have been sent to me first, before it was posted. It would have been the most courteous thing to do, and would have allowed me to ask questions about the critique before it was posted.

The review on amazon was not for my benefit, but to tell customers that the book wasn't worth reading and would not be passed to another child or adult for a second opinion -- it wasn't even worth a second opinion.

That is a malicious statement and very spiteful. It is not constructive criticism.

Shelagh

Sparhawk

01-18-2006, 03:01 AM

<<Quote:
Originally Posted by shelagh
If this was a way of helping me, then I would sooner sup with the devil -- at least then I would know what I was dealing with.

you already did that - when you signed with PA.>>

Game, set, match.

Shelagh, you're going to honestly say that you haven't been doing your damndest to get exposure for your book on this site? C'mon, be serious.
I also ask, is Ken the only person not affiliated with you and/or Publish America offering an Amazon review of even a review at the PA bookstore? (I looked at the PA bookstore and it seems as if the reviews on the PA bookstore are the same ones at Amazon, with the exception of Ken. Both reviewers are PA Authors)

What would your attitude be if Ken gave you a three star or two star review? Would that have been OK with you? Even if he kept the text the same? I guess I'm asking is it the actual content of his review or the 1 star that bothers you? Or is it both?

Ken wrote a serious, detailed critique. I admit that it's damning and must be difficult for you to see under your novel. I also freely admit that I would wince if I saw that under my novel as well, but Ken read your book and posted his opinion. His financial outlay entitles him to post his opinion, whether you like it or not. IF Ken bought my book and didn't like it and did the same thing, I'd be more inclined to PM him and try to get an in depth analysis of exactly what he did and didn't like and why, where he felt the story was weak and where he though it was decent. Check his background he is more than qualified to give a critique.

You beleive in your story, and that's a good thing, but did Publish America really do you a service by publishing it as it currently stands. I know the novel that bears my name out there is open fodder for anybody who buys it, in all it's unedited and typo filled glory. Here's the sad part though. The poorly edited book reflects as much on the author as it does the publisher; and that, in my opinion, is Publish America's greatest crime.

My book bears my name on the cover in bold letters, the contents are mine for better of for worse. I wish it was professionally edited, but I have to bear the brunt of the errors inside that cover because my name is on the cover. Publish America doesn't care, but I do. And I know you do too, Shelagh.

Publish America is not helping you to become a better writer, they fooled me into beleiving I was good enough to be published, a real live author!! They were wrong, I was wrong. After two years of sweat and toil (and studying) I have a new book that has been accepted by a legitimate publisher. If I can do it Shelagh, I know you can too, if you choose to.

Publish America is not a legitimate outlet for anybody who wants to be a real writer. For God Sakes, Meiner's admitted that himself in Phil Dolan's arbitration hearing. It was for Aunt Betsy's memoirs. Read the quote at Publish America sucks.com.

Shelagh, although we don't see eye to eye and any snarky verbage aside, if you have tenacity in your writing career that you have on this forum, you'll be a huge success. You have the willpower to make it happen, don't sell yourself short and limit yourself with Publish America.

Again, I wish you the best, honestly.

Respectfully,

-Sparhawk

BeeBomb

01-18-2006, 03:10 AM

Sparhawk, I am so proud of you. This is great news and I wish you the very best with your book at this good LEGITIMATE publisher. Way to go and when it is out, I will buy a copy. You know how to get in touch with me.

[After two years of sweat and toil (and studying) I have a new book that has been accepted by a legitimate publisher.]

Bee

ResearchGuy

01-18-2006, 03:13 AM

... Ken said in one of his posts that he never bought books online...
Never said such a thing. I buy numerous books online in an average year -- but not ones about which I know nothing. Either I am familiar with the author (I buy everything John Lescroart publishes, for example), or can trust the publisher, or can trust the reviews, or it was reliably recommended to me, or I saw it in a store and bought it online to save money.

Deleted by Nice-O-Matic(TM)

--Ken

Ken Schneider

01-18-2006, 03:16 AM

I haven't read any pro P.A. points in this back and forth banter.

Most of the rebuttal, as was seen before, way upstream, appears to be antagonistic jabbing. And, not for understanding, but for computer chair twirling coupled with laughter.

BeeBomb

01-18-2006, 03:19 AM

Hi ya, Ken! Amen and amen! I have twirled around several times today too.

Bee

TwentyFour

01-18-2006, 03:23 AM

In the UK, gentlemen do not behave the way Ken did. The critique should have been sent to me first, before it was posted. It would have been the most courteous thing to do, and would have allowed me to ask questions about the critique before it was posted.

The review on amazon was not for my benefit, but to tell customers that the book wasn't worth reading and would not be passed to another child or adult for a second opinion -- it wasn't even worth a second opinion.

That is a malicious statement and very spiteful. It is not constructive criticism.

Shelagh

Why would someone send a critique to the author to dress up or delete?

I've read the many PA authors who critique novels from the sight. What I can't understand is how all these authors on PA can buy all those books they comment on. Guestbooks are full of "Great book, best of luck!" and "You have such talent! Keep up the good work."

Reviews are always from 10 - 20 PA authors who say its a great book! The average rating on Amazon of PA books are very high, with hardly any to no sales recorded.

How do you explain this? Why can't you allow a bad review? I'm sure Ken isn't the only person who disliked your book and won't be the last either.

NicoleJLeBoeuf

01-18-2006, 03:32 AM

I hear you. Nonetheless, month after month of attending meetings with those folks, talking with them and listening to them (and I mean exactly those specific individuals) has influenced my view. If I thought that the reading public had been unfairly deprived as a result of their books not being in bookstores, it would be a different matter, if you get my drift.But whether the reading public is or is not deprived has nothing to do with what I said.

I maintain that PA are an inappropriate choice for any and every writer because PA are A) abusive in their communications, B) too rights-grabby to tolerate, C) dishonest in their business transactions, and D) in flagrant violation of copyright.

I fail to see how any number of specific happy-with-PA authors mitigate those facts, and I just don't see what the reading public's deprivation or lack thereof has anything to do with the argument.

Unless you are arguing that some books are so bad that they ought to be imprisoned in a PA contract? That's not a conversation I'm going to touch.

mdin

01-18-2006, 03:35 AM

This should all be in overflow, but:

But who knows ... maybe someone else will read it and find that I am completely wrong -- and say so here via a point-by-point refutation.

Anyone want to volunteer?

--Ken

If you have paypal, I'll buy your copy for half of what it cost you + the cost of shipping it to Arizona, and I promise to read it and review it with an open mind. PM me if you're interested.

astonwest

01-18-2006, 03:40 AM

They then went to Ingrams who directed them to LS for ordering. They were also told to do so from now on. I guess that's one way PA would make returnable books non-returnable and blame it on someone elsePerhaps Ingram doesn't want to hassle with the puny percentage they (and stores) receive on returnable books...

So much for the return-policy-that-wasn't...

Wasn't there some recent news about a 'POD fee'? Was that in regards to Ingram or Amazon??
I'm afraid the last few days in this thread have moved too quickly for me to recall where I saw it.

TwentyFour

01-18-2006, 03:47 AM

POD fee to post books on some sites have been charged $50.00 a year I believe... the publisher pays around $12.00 a year.

Christine N.

01-18-2006, 03:57 AM

Shelagh, I must also disagree. In real publishing, you send out the books to reviewers. The reviewers should send you a tearsheet before the review is published, but you get no say in it. Good, bad or otherwise.

If I were you... rather, if someone took the time to give me such a detailed critique, I would take it with grace and dignity. People pray for such constructive crit - too often we writers are just given form letters with no reason. Of course, such crit would have been better served had you had before the book saw print, but now you can take that advice and apply it to your current work.

I recently had an agent give me some constructive crit- a rarity. She is also an author (and sometimes hangs around here - SCANDALOUS! LOL) so when she gave me such insight I took it to heart and am now revamping.

He didn't say - this book sucks or I hate PA... he concentrated on your book and the mechanics and story of how it was crafted. It was a well written review.

Every single author, at one point or another, no matter how many books they've written or fame they garner, will have a less than stellar review. Nature of the beast.

Jean Marie

01-18-2006, 04:05 AM

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticoncry.gifhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticoncry.gifhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticoncry.gifShelagh, this is what I think of you at this point-complete and total sour grapes. I didn't get a good review on my book-waaaaaaaaaaaa. For heaven's sake, grow a thicker skin or take up another career!

Write another book, submit to a publisher not a printer and get on w/ your life. You're doing yourself a serious disservice w/ wanting it only your way. Real life isn't like that.

The first couple of reading groups I spoke to, when I was still under contract w/ the criminals @ PA, had some harsh critiques. So what! I learned from it and used the information when I took the opportunity to rewrite my book. That's right, I could have been an arrogant dweeb and self-published it right away. But I thought, wow, this is a once in a lifetime chance and I'm jumping at it. Jeez, I hope I continue to learn until the day I die!! New phrase for the day: learning curve.

I sent out several query letters today on my first book. Yes, the one PA gave me the rights back on...who cares how many rejection notes I get. I'll keep sending queries until I get a yes. Meantime, I will continue writing my 2nd ms.

Hell will freeze over and the devils will go ice-skating before I ever sell my soul again.

To borrow a phrase from my learned friend, Sparhawk: 'nuff said

TwentyFour

01-18-2006, 04:11 AM

14 out of 18 people found Ken's review more helpful than the other two reviews

DaveKuzminski

01-18-2006, 04:48 AM

I've rated only one PA book at the request of the author who wanted me to recommend that readers not purchase the book. In fact, I review very few books and I rather like it that way. There's too much hype within the industry as it is.

As to my own books, whatever the public wants to say about my books is their right. If they hate what I wrote, they're welcome to say so. I don't really care because it generally means they're reading it since I can't imagine someone giving an honest review on what they haven't read. Still, if some individuals happen to do that and trash one of my books, so what? If they make it bad enough, they'll simply generate publicity for me because there are a lot of people who will then want to buy and read it just to see if it can live up to their claims. So, either way, I figure I win. It's like they claim about the media, there is no bad publicity.

However, you can defeat all of the benefits that either good or bad publicity can generate by whimpering about it. Then the public views you as spoiled and very often concludes that you're trying to manipulate them. When it looks deliberate, sales suffer because the public doesn't like that to be so blatent.

NancyMehl

01-18-2006, 04:51 AM

I'm with you, Nancy. And 99.9% of us here who are PA authors wouldn't ASK, for the same reason.

For some reason, not too long ago, I removed egem from my 'ignore' list. I don't know why in the universe I did that now. I guess I thought s/he'd actually learned something. However, once I put Shelaugh (sp?) on 'ignore', I never looked back. The one good thing is that once again they've both given us the opportunity to educate the masses. Thanks, y'all!

Thanks.

I forgot about "ignore." It will probably help my blood pressure...

Nancy

NancyMehl

01-18-2006, 05:23 AM

The critique should have been sent to me first, before it was posted. It would have been the most courteous thing to do, and would have allowed me to ask questions about the critique before it was posted.

Shelagh,

Reviewing books is a subject I can address. I've been a book reviewer for many years now - online and in a major newspaper.

No professional reviewer ever sends their review to an author before it is published. Maybe you felt that Ken was doing his critique as a favor, I don't know. But if you actually wanted a review - you have to take what you get.

Personally, I don't review books I don't like. It's just the way I am. If I'd read your book and didn't like it, I would simply pass on writing a review. However, there are a lot of reviewers who don't feel the way I do.

I have given people private critiques - but we understand beforehand that my comments are just for the writer's benefit.

Honestly, I am more grateful for the critical comments I've received than I am for a lot of the praise. Why? Because it's helped me to become a better writer. Without seeing what is wrong it is impossible to improve.

I would print out Ken's comments and keep them. As time goes by, and you grow as a writer, some of the things he said may make sense. As writers, we either sit down in the middle of the road and never go anywhere else, or we get up when we're knocked down and "keep on truckin'" until we reach the destination we dream about.

Good luck to you!

Nancy

spike

01-18-2006, 06:10 AM

I would say not so much "impossible" as improbable. Extremely improbable.

Yes, one can easily enough order PA books, BUT that is a far cry from real accessibility, as first you have to know about that particular book and have a reason for ordering it, waiting, and paying the hefty price.

The problem is all the worse for children's books, typically priced at $5 to $9 for trade paperbacks (printed on pulp paper, usually, but serviceable), or about a quarter to less than half the price of a more-or-less comparable PA book. Also all the worse for the fact that kids like to pick their reading (have to see it first) and that parents who are buying are not insensitive to price and want to know what they are buying, too. Not in bookstores = invisible for all practical purposes. Who is going to order a pig in a poke at a premium price when a trip to the bookstore finds lots of worthwhile books at a fraction of the cost? Oh ... one other thing ... kids (like adults, I suppose) like to read what their friends are reading. Well, that is not going to be PA books.

--Ken

And if your kids are like my kid, if the book is enjoyed, it will be destroyed. The only intact children's books in my house are the ones my kid didn't like. The ones she liked were taken to the pool, the bowling alley, to school, to camp, etc. Cheap books are important for parents.

And parents tend to buy the books they liked themselves as children. Thus the difficulty breaking into kid lit. Goodnight Moon has been in print for about 50 years!

Ken Schneider

01-18-2006, 06:41 AM

There are places to send books for real honest reviews. Smell the roses.

Even this P.A. book was able to get a review here.

http://www.aromancereview.com/reviews/index.php?app_state=show_event&bookid=4042

moblues

01-18-2006, 06:43 AM

Check out what I found in my web-based email inbox today. It was sent to me twice:

Dear Michael O'Rourke:

Thank you for your query concerning Lacuna Twilight, on 8/30/2004. We
requested your submissions package on the same day, but have not yet
received it. If I can be of any further assistance, please contact
me. I look forward to receiving and considering Lacuna Twilight soon.

Best regards,

X.X. XXXXXXX
Executive Director
PublishAmerica

The Executive Director's name is easy enough to find. I didn't want to leave it in the missive. Note the submission date. This is the date that I found this site by Googling "Publish America reviews". Thank you for this thread. It saved me a lot of aggravation.

BTW: The MS is where it belongs––in my desk. It was my first attempt at fiction writing to actually have "The End" on the final page.

Why on earth are they following up now? My guess is that the submission well is beginning to dry up because of concerned communities like this one.

Thanks again

Mike

James D. Macdonald

01-18-2006, 07:23 AM

Amazon reviews, even Amazon reviews of PA books, are off-topic for this thread. Please take that discussion to the Overflow.

Jean Marie

01-18-2006, 07:36 AM

Hi Mike and http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotewelcome.gif It is my sincere hope that PA is indeed reaching the bottom of the pile. That would be the best news of all!!!

I will say that the power of the NEPAT is evident when an author such as yourself has been saved from the sewer rats. Thank goodness for Jenna's continued efforts in keeping AW alive and wellhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smilehooray.gifThank you, Mac and Jimhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteClap.gifhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteClap.gif Just when you're wondering why we bother...Mike, you made my night, thank you!

shelagh

01-18-2006, 12:07 PM

Shelagh,

Reviewing books is a subject I can address. I've been a book reviewer for many years now - online and in a major newspaper.

No professional reviewer ever sends their review to an author before it is published. Maybe you felt that Ken was doing his critique as a favor, I don't know. But if you actually wanted a review - you have to take what you get.

Personally, I don't review books I don't like. It's just the way I am. If I'd read your book and didn't like it, I would simply pass on writing a review. However, there are a lot of reviewers who don't feel the way I do.

I have given people private critiques - but we understand beforehand that my comments are just for the writer's benefit.

Honestly, I am more grateful for the critical comments I've received than I am for a lot of the praise. Why? Because it's helped me to become a better writer. Without seeing what is wrong it is impossible to improve.

I would print out Ken's comments and keep them. As time goes by, and you grow as a writer, some of the things he said may make sense. As writers, we either sit down in the middle of the road and never go anywhere else, or we get up when we're knocked down and "keep on truckin'" until we reach the destination we dream about.

Good luck to you!

Nancy
Thank you Nancy! It is your post that I will copy and save for future reference.

I wish you much success in your writing career and I hope that 2006 is a great year for you!

Shelagh

Aconite

01-18-2006, 03:22 PM

For anyone still wondering how PA's practices differ from real publishers', How Real Publishing Works (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20586) is a short primer.

Christine N.

01-18-2006, 04:11 PM

There are a couple of places that PA books can still get a review.... Lighthouse Literary is one (and I review for them) I think Midwest Book Review?

It's getting harder for PA books to get reviews, even on on line sites - Roundtable implemented a policy that they will only review PA books from authors they've reviewed before. Nancy, does Myshelf review PA books? I know I had to wait until someone chose my book to review before I could send it, but I dont' know their PA policy.

I only mention this because it is one more roadblock PA books might come up against. Many review places had problems with this very thing we're talking about - less than stellar reviews being given to PA books, and the authors haranguing the sites to have them taken down.

Like Ken said, reviews are not for the author, they are for the consumer. Oh wait... (sorry, couldn't resist)

Sparhawk

01-18-2006, 05:02 PM

Could Publish America be described as a "Gated Community" of publishing? They seem to deliberatly want to function and exist outside of the mainstream publishing industry.

They also seem to only want "Stepford authors":

"PA is all wise and all knowing, they gave me the chance I deserve."
"Oh thank you INFOCENTER, that cleared everything up"

Just a thought before I've had my second cup of coffee.

Lady of Prose

01-18-2006, 05:11 PM

Personally, I don't review books I don't like. It's just the way I am. If I'd read your book and didn't like it, I would simply pass on writing a review. However, there are a lot of reviewers who don't feel the way I do.

I have given people private critiques - but we understand beforehand that my comments are just for the writer's benefit.

Actually, I think this is probably one of the most valuable tools a new author could hope for--an honest critique from someone who doesn't like their book. I admire someone who can objectively review a work with the thought of helping the writer become better at his or her craft. Knowing what someone doesn't like about my book would give me heads up on some needed improvement. It would make me think about why they didn't like it--style, poor writing mechanics, genre, whatever. Then I could evaluate where my weaknesses are and improve on them. Genre would be the least of my concerns of course, but the other points I think would be very helpful.

I have never asked, nor do I intend to put any "professional" reviewer in the awkward position of reviewing my PA book. I place no value on any of the reviews that are by PA authors. To me that is one of the most insulting subjects on the PA boards. If I could, I would have all of my "reviews" removed. I reviewed a couple of books by PA authors and was chastised for giving less than a 5 star rating...so pathetic, really

akaa1a

01-18-2006, 05:21 PM

Oy vey! "200 Authors and How They Were Published"

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10181

Christine N.

01-18-2006, 06:10 PM

Ack. How many of those authors are still active with PA, how many are banned and how many never want to be associated with PA again? It's been at least what, a year? Things change so much around there in that period of time.

shelagh

01-18-2006, 06:11 PM

200 Authors book cover:

http://s13.invisionfree.com/200authors/index.php?showtopic=91&st=0

xhouseboy

01-18-2006, 06:35 PM

Oy vey! "200 Authors and How They Were Published"

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10181

They might have missed an opportunity for some topicality. It could have been the shortest book ever published.

One sentence: We sent our ms to Publish America.

postshy

01-18-2006, 06:52 PM

You are probably the only one who can answer this question over here. Was the 200 Author book professionally edited? That is going to be more important than how good the cover looks? Did PA actually assign an editor who is able to do more than spell and grammar check? Or, are these 200 authors going to face total embarrassment when the book hits the marketplace?

I will admit that while I was in the "honeymoon" stage with PA, I did correspond with some people for whom I had some respect. Unfortunately, they are no longer with the Company. I wonder why?:)

postshy/Roberta

Aconite

01-18-2006, 07:04 PM

Shelagh, someone asked a few pages back which for the names of publishers that "typically" pay royalties on net, which you said was standard practice. I'm curious to know as well. Payment on net is not standard, as others here have said, and I was wondering where you got the impression it was. Which of the publishers you know of pay on net?

shelagh

01-18-2006, 07:38 PM

Hi Roberta,

John Keohane and Sherry Moore collected all the information from the authors. I wasn't involved, so I can't tell you anything about who was assigned to edit. I did receive proofs to read through, and I corrected my own entry -- so any mistakes you might find are mine!

Aconite, I think the word I used was commonplace: having no remarkable features, characteristics, or traits; ordinary.

Maybe I used the wrong word. I simply meant that it wasn't extraordinary.

Shelagh

Aconite

01-18-2006, 08:02 PM

Aconite, I think the word I used was commonplace: having no remarkable features, characteristics, or traits; ordinary.

Maybe I used the wrong word. I simply meant that it wasn't extraordinary.

It's not commonplace, though. I was wondering which publishers you've had experience with that made you think it was.

NancyMehl

01-18-2006, 08:04 PM

Nancy, does Myshelf review PA books? I know I had to wait until someone chose my book to review before I could send it, but I dont' know their PA policy.

I believe they do now, but at one time the editor, Brenda Weeaks, quit accepting PA books for review. Why? Because more than one PA author didn't know how to act. If their review wasn't positive, they were mad. One long time PA cheerleader launched an assault against MyShelf and the reviewer who took the time to read and review her poorly written book. (Yes, I read it. It was one of the worst books I EVER read.)

I wrote my last column for MyShelf in December and sent them my last review for January. Therefore I'm not certain at this particular moment if they are still reviewing PA books. MyShelf is a great place to work, but I am trying to cut down on my reviewing so that I can spend more time on my writing. I'm reviewing some (when I feel like it) for Midwest Book Review - and I still write a column for the newspaper, but I am easing out slowly from the world of book reviewing.

I have received lots of PA books for review (for the newspaper). I have only reviewed a couple. Most weren't good enough. Now, my newspaper won't accept any self-published books for review. Not something I agree with, but a decision I must abide by.

Nancy

ResearchGuy

01-18-2006, 08:13 PM

...Maybe I used the wrong word. I simply meant that it wasn't extraordinary....
On Saturday, I attended a meeting at which a locally-based literary agent spoke. She serves a national clientele, but her office is in the Sacramento, California area; she primarily handles nonfiction. In a passing reference, she indicated that the trend is toward royalty based on wholesale price. She did not expand on that point, and no one asked. I have emailed for more information.

--Ken

SC Harrison

01-18-2006, 08:44 PM

On Saturday, I attended a meeting at which a locally-based literary agent spoke. She serves a national clientele, but her office is in the Sacramento, California area; she primarily handles nonfiction. In a passing reference, she indicated that the trend is toward royalty based on wholesale price. She did not expand on that point, and no one asked. I have emailed for more information.

--Ken

Crikey. Kind of an important trend, huh?

PVish

01-18-2006, 08:53 PM

The cover of the 200 Authors and How they Were Published book seems rather, uh, symbolic: A loose stack of less than pristine pages, a primitive looking quill, and a bottle of ink that almost looks like a grenade. Plus the dark background gives a certain ominous feel to the whole thing.

Yep, that's the PA experience.

mdin

01-18-2006, 09:04 PM

The 200 Authors book is also now listed in the PA bookstore. Retail? $29.95, but you can get it from PA for the rock bottom price of just $24.95.

mdin

01-18-2006, 09:06 PM

Also, the cover on the 200 authors webpage is slightly different than the one listed in the bookstore. See if you can spot the difference (http://www.publishamerica.com/greetingcardpro/images/big/1413786464.jpg).

Aconite

01-18-2006, 09:08 PM

She serves a national clientele, but her office is in the Sacramento, California area; she primarily handles nonfiction. In a passing reference, she indicated that the trend is toward royalty based on wholesale price. She did not expand on that point, and no one asked.
I don't suppose she mentioned if the trend was for publishers to put that in the boilerplate and see if they could get it, or if agents were, for some reason, depriving themselves and their clients of revenue by letting such provisions into final contracts? I can see publishers trying for it. I can't see agents or knowledgable authors giving it to them.

Maddog

01-18-2006, 09:09 PM

I feel like I'm playing a game in Highlights magazine, Navigator! The only difference I can see is the name of the author. Is that what you're getting at?

ResearchGuy

01-18-2006, 09:12 PM

Crikey. Kind of an important trend, huh?
This was Andrea Hurst's reply to my request for more information: "most contracts pay around 10% royalties on the Wholesale price now." She is too busy to chat, but at least offered that much. (I do not know whether her focus on nonfiction is significant in her observations on this point.)

--Ken

postshy

01-18-2006, 09:23 PM

From your posts, I know that you will have done a good job editing your entry in the 200 Author Book. However, bad editing by others will pull down the good editing of those who did their own and reduce the overall quality of the book. That is all I meant. As long as PA collects their cut from all those poor authors who will buy their own copies (because bookstores certainly won't), they won't care about the editing. PA will not see it as a reflection on themselves (or will not care), but it will affect the reputation of each and every entrant.

After all the work that was put into the book (catalogue), it would do a lot more harm than good, when distributed, if it was poorly edited. Just my thoughts!

postshy/Roberta

Aconite

01-18-2006, 09:28 PM

This was Andrea Hurst's reply to my request for more information: "most contracts pay around 10% royalties on the Wholesale price now." She is too busy to chat, but at least offered that much. (I do not know whether her focus on nonfiction is significant in her observations on this point.)
I just asked Miss Snark (http://misssnark.blogspot.com/) for her experience with the issue; with luck, we'll get her take on it.

Christine N.

01-18-2006, 09:35 PM

$29.95 !!! The most expensive catalog EVER. Yikes. Are they really going to sell any (besides to the authors, and maybe not even them at that price??) Even $24.95 is too much.

James D. Macdonald

01-18-2006, 10:10 PM

Royalties on wholesale are common in non-fiction computer-industry books, where Hottest-New-Thing today becomes Can't-Give-It-Away in six months.

ResearchGuy

01-18-2006, 10:12 PM

$29.95 !!! The most expensive catalog EVER. Yikes. Are they really going to sell any (besides to the authors, and maybe not even them at that price??) Even $24.95 is too much.
The subtitle suggests that maybe the book will be used as a marketing tool to entice another generation into the PA trap.

--Ken

P.S. At least they did not title it 200 Author's.

Ken Schneider

01-18-2006, 10:31 PM

After all the work that was put into the book (catalogue), it would do a lot more harm than good, when distributed, if it was poorly edited. Just my thoughts!postshy/Roberta

It is only a book of authors books.

So, I'm going to buy a book to see which book I'm going to buy?

I was still on the P.A. board when they cooked up this deal. I wasn't about to get involved, and glad I didn't.

It is useless. As I said once before, I bet it will never sell more than two hundred copies.http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

BeeBomb

01-18-2006, 10:45 PM

Why, pray tell, are you even giving this book coverage? I didn't join the mass, either!
Waste of my time and money.

Bee

SC Harrison

01-18-2006, 11:17 PM

It is useless. As I said once before, I bet it will never sell more than two hundred copies.http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Make that 199 copies.

DeePower

01-18-2006, 11:31 PM

James D. Macdonald

01-18-2006, 11:40 PM

It's possible that the books were ordered direct from LSI, or from PA.

But the bookstores mentioned aren't too far (as such things go) from where I live. If it weren't freezing rain mixed with snow right now, I might drive over to take a look at the point-of-sale displays.

Aconite

01-18-2006, 11:48 PM

The author says Waldens 'not only ordered some of my books while I stood there,' but put the display stand on the front register.
Because, as we all know, chain bookstores are just delighted to give premium display space at the front register, for which major publishers pay lots of money, for free to authors who walk in off the street with books published by a company with a discount structure so warped that bookstores lose money on the sale of the books. Yeah.

SC Harrison

01-19-2006, 12:03 AM

The author says Waldens 'not only ordered some of my books while I stood there,' but put the display stand on the front register. This was accomplished yesterday.

The author apparently thinks the big green stinky metal box in the back alley is called a "front register", and a clerk announcing on the intercom "Security, please come to store 26" is the code they use to place book orders. The security guard escorting the author out of the mall is to protect the author from obsessive fans, and the statement "Please don't come back here" means other malls deserve an equal opportunity to host the author.

TwentyFour

01-19-2006, 12:37 AM

I'm not sure if they are the same company that called me and told me how poorly PA would handle my work. Did they say anything like that to you? It may be different companies. The company that contacted me claimed lots of negative "stuff" regarding PA. Told me to send them my PA contract and they would explain it to me as proof. When I informed them that I had studied law and know contracts, the guy simply said "Fine!" and hung up on me

Blessings!

Yes I am familiar with Tate publishing. How can a publishing company that charges you be consider as a traditional publisher?
They are a vanity press pure and simple.

So they will pay back the money that you put in, IF you sell books. How many would you have to sell. What happens if you sold some books, but not as many as they think you should have? They won't refund your money, as they will claim that they did not recoupe their investment to begin with.

PublishAmerica is by far the leading publishing company. Others are jealous of their success in the industry and will say anything, do any thing to keep someone from publish with them. Besides that for every book that PublishAmerica releases, that is money out of their pocket as they have lost a prospective "sucker" to take money from.
If you get the chance check out my website www.XXXXXXXXand please sign the guest book. I will be hosting a contest beginning February 1st and as a prize in the contest I am offering any book off my website to the winner(s).
Is your book listed? If not email my webmaster from any of the author pages with your ISBN, title of book and your website URL.

Thanks

WOW! From the PAMB boards... They are beginning to publicly down other publishers or was this always going on upon the board?

Sparhawk

01-19-2006, 12:42 AM

The author apparently thinks the big green stinky metal box in the back alley is called a "front register", and a clerk announcing on the intercom "Security, please come to store 26" is the code they use to place book orders. The security guard escorting the author out of the mall is to protect the author from obsessive fans, and the statement "Please don't come back here" means other malls deserve an equal opportunity to host the author.

A fantasy is a terrible thing to waste. <<Heavy Sigh>>. (S.C, that's not aimed at you but at the above PA post) First off, Walden's has a less than stellar opinion about Publish America. how do I know? I got the lecture from the Waldens manager at the Southboro Mall. At least he was nice about it though. As for Boders, if it's a New England store, it would probably have to go through Susan Chinsen. Again, I'll gladly post Ms. Chinsen's reactions to the pricing structure of Publish America books. The E-mails are archived in my hard drive and were used as evidence against Publish America when they filed harassment charges against me. (Ahh the memories)

Mabe they just humored the guy knowing he'd disappear and go away happy, as long as he just went away.

Aconite

01-19-2006, 12:49 AM

When I informed them that I had studied law and know contracts, the guy simply said "Fine!" and hung up on me
All contracts are not created equal. Publishing contracts require special knowledge of publishing to be formulated, read, and critiqued correctly. A podiatrist and an obstetrician both studied medicine, but which do you want performing a C-section?
WOW! From the PAMB boards... They are beginning to publicly down other publishers or was this always going on upon the board?
They were always like that. Weirdly, and sadly, they're a little bit right: PA authors are likely to be approached by other scam publishers/agents/editors, who see them as easy marks. The problem is that these inexperienced authors don't know how to tell scammers from repectable professionals, and so lump everyone other than PA under "bad."

TwentyFour

01-19-2006, 01:16 AM

I studied Criminology for one semester and I'm no "Monk". I would think anyone offered a contract would find a lawyer to do a run down of everything.

NancyMehl

01-19-2006, 01:30 AM

Well, I wrote about a lawyer once.

That makes me about as knowledgeable as some of the "experts" PA authors are getting their information from.

Nancy

TwentyFour

01-19-2006, 01:39 AM

LOL their experts are never far from the PAMBoard and anyone beyond this board is a
"spy" or an "enemy". Those authors cannot go beyond the board since all other sites are so "jealous" of PA and their success.

Sheryl Nantus

01-19-2006, 01:50 AM

a $30 catalog.

of overpriced, unedited books.

oh, this is going to be awful to watch... wait until the first post about how they tried to force the store manager to sit down and peruse this vital tome and purchase some PA books.

argh.

Christine N.

01-19-2006, 02:13 AM

To be fair to PA, I've picked a PA book as my next to review. I will give it an honest, fair evaluation for story, character and mechanics.

When I get it to read, I'll let y'all know.

Sheryl Nantus

01-19-2006, 02:30 AM

Mabe they just humored the guy knowing he'd disappear and go away happy, as long as he just went away.

I suspect this happens more times than not - the manager takes the bookmarks, displays them promptly and stands at the computer with a smile... then chucks them into the garbage when the author leaves. There's no way to see if any books were EVER ordered.

if the author ever returns, they get told another lie or just ignored.

ugh.

SC Harrison

01-19-2006, 02:37 AM

A fantasy is a terrible thing to waste. <<Heavy Sigh>>. (S.C, that's not aimed at you but at the above PA post) First off, Walden's has a less than stellar opinion about Publish America. how do I know? I got the lecture from the Waldens manager at the Southboro Mall.

It wouldn't have been out of place if it had been aimed at me. If I put half of the effort into (real) writing that I put into my posts, I could probably get something accomplished ;)

As far as Waldens: when I spoke to the manager about doing a signing, getting my book on the shelf, etc., she typed my ISBN into her computer and said it wasn't listed. Of course I argued with her, and told her Ingrams had it listed, and she responded by telling me they used Ingrams and B&T as their distributor, which made me want to crawl under a rock. I have a hunch their system doesn't allow individual stores to order from the distributors, it routes them through the headquarters which filters (some) POD titles. This did take place shortly after my book was released, but Ingrams already had it listed, so something weird was going on. I guess she could have lied to me, but my prevarication detector remained silent during the entire exchange.

astonwest

01-19-2006, 02:58 AM

There is a post on the PAMB about an author who printed up a bunch of bookmarks and point of sale display stands and took them 'around to half a dozen small bookstores, a Borders and a Waldens' and had 'success with each and every one.' The author says Waldens 'not only ordered some of my books while I stood there,' but put the display stand on the front register. This was accomplished yesterday.

Either Walden didn't order the books while the PA author stood there or canceled the order after the author left.

Why do PA authors say these kinds of things?

To be fair, I had a Waldenbooks order something around 25 copies of my book (despite my repeated warnings not to order that many), and tended to order other PA books from local authors. The manager was a sweetheart (the store has since closed down), but she was overly optimistic about a reader's ability to part with more money than a PA book is really worth.

As far as I could tell, even with two signings at said store, I could do little more than about 5-7 copies sold...unfortunately, even overly optimistic people won't allow you to set prices at a point where they'll lose money.

All that being said, if the managers in all those stores were very author friendly, it wouldn't be out of the question. I just wouldn't want to be around when their regional managers (or equivalent) come in to check up on the store.

Christine N.

01-19-2006, 03:11 AM

SC, I don't know how it works at Waldenbooks (are the part of B&N?) But I've had experience with Borders. Borders doesn't look at the Ingrams or B&T database. The books have to entered into the Borders Inc database to show up. It's not automatic either. I'm waiting for Talisman of Zandria to be entered - they've agree to carry it in their database. Of course, it could take up to 90 days, so it may not be in until April, but it will be there. Borders also assigns each book it's own number in their database, called a BINC. Without a BINC, Borders stores can't order that book, no matter who distributes it.

I don't think many PA authors understand how this works. Heck, I don't think many authors in general understand how it works. It's the same with B&N, but sometimes you get a B&N regional director who will let the managers order outside their database.

SC Harrison

01-19-2006, 05:37 AM

The books have to entered into the Borders Inc database to show up. It's not automatic either. I'm waiting for Talisman of Zandria to be entered - they've agree to carry it in their database. Of course, it could take up to 90 days, so it may not be in until April, but it will be there. Borders also assigns each book it's own number in their database, called a BINC. Without a BINC, Borders stores can't order that book, no matter who distributes it.

I've spent quite a bit of time in my local (twenty miles away) Borders, and I know even less about their operation than when I started trying to peel the layers.

It took about four weeks from when my book showed up on Amazon to being listed at Borders. I did nothing to make this happen except wait. One Saturday I typed my book's title into a Title Sleuth machine, and there it was. My son had said he would only order it from Borders, so I printed a little ordering note from the machine and presented it to him. With a sigh, he carried it to the customer service desk and placed the order.

When he received the "we can't get this" postcard a few weeks later, I went into the store to inquire. While I watched, a girl typed in my ISBN, and a screen came up with "not available". The girl said, "Hmm. Let me try something else." She closed out the window she was in, typed in a few things, including a password (I politely looked away). After accessing a few more windows, she showed me a screen that read:

Ingrams: *out of stock*
Baker & Taylor: *out of stock*
order this title from the publisher

which she did at my request. About three weeks later it arrived in the store.

A few months after that, a girl I was dating ordered my book from the same store, and two weeks later got the "we can't get this" postcard. I gave her my last copy, and less than two weeks later she broke up with me :( .

My macho side thinks it was my writing that turned her off, and my intellectual side just knows it was my looks. Either way, I'm sleeping alone tonight...did I just say that outloud?

Sootie

01-19-2006, 05:57 AM

Hi everyone. I just thought I`d ask your opinion of something. I had written to Lightning Source asking if they were still producing my PA books. My rights were reverted back to me on July 21, 2005. This was their response. Since when does Ingram purchase mega copies of PA books? Something just doesn`t seem right here. Comments?

Thanks,

Sootie.
************************************************** ************

Linda:

Thank you for your most recent inquiry to Lightning Source Inc. Please know Lightning Source is NOT printing your titles any longer, due to Publish America requesting us to cancel them several months ago. At the same time, Ingram had previously purchased copies of your book prior to them being cancelled, which they still have in stock in their warehouses. For this reason alone, other retailers or distributors would be allowed to purchase those unsold copies. This is the reason your title is still available thru Ingram. There are NO copies being printed any longer thru Lightning Source, but copies previously printed and sold to our distributors during your contract with Publish Amercia are able to be sold until those particular units are depleted.

Hopefully this answers the concerns you have concerning your two ISBN's which were published thru Publish America, printed by Lightning Source prior to the cancellation.

Patti Roberts
Manager, Client Services

Lightning Source, Inc
1246 Heil Quaker Blvd
LaVergne, Tn 37086
www.lightningsource.com (http://www.lightningsource.com/)
Phone: 615-213-4478
Fax: 615-213-4426

astonwest

01-19-2006, 06:01 AM

You might check to see how many copies Ingram has on-hand. I doubt that they have "mega copies", but likely 1 or 2 copies that would still be available until sold.

Hopefully royalties were paid on those copies...

Christine N.

01-19-2006, 06:09 AM

SC Harrison

01-19-2006, 07:01 AM

Wow, SC, you got lucky. The regional directors around here are tight fisted. If it's not in the Border's database, no dice. They look at one screen around here and one only. Probably because we're wedged in here between Philly and New York, and there seem to be a lot of PA authors here. Or maybe it's just a lot of POD authors in general.

I'm sure a big reason for the widely ranging bookstore "policies" are directly a result of incidents at the local (or regional) level. Managers rarely notice inefficient transactions until there is enough activity to be designated as a trend. Once a trend has been noticed and a cost analysis has been performed, a decision has to be made as to whether the little (or no) profit generated from this service is necessary to retain customer satisfaction. Add to this problem the frequently extended wait for ordered books, and the number of these that are never actually purchased, and the manager may have to take steps.

The moral of this story is: if you are thinking about having your book printed by PA, don't be surprised when the bookstore manager refuses to stock (or even order) your book. They make next to nothing, you make next to nothing, and your (few) customers pay a hardback price for a soft cover book.

keltora

01-19-2006, 07:29 PM

Sparhawk

01-19-2006, 08:47 PM

James D. Macdonald

01-19-2006, 09:16 PM

It's a phone number. You call from a touch-tone phone with the ISBN in hand:

(615) 213-6803

Also of interest: the date on which PA told LSI to stop producing books. Was it the same day that they sent you your reversion?

DeePower

01-19-2006, 09:21 PM

About a year ago (February 1), Ingram had four copies of the book PA 'printed' that I wrote. I got the rights back effective Feb 1, 2005. Ingram now has one copy in stock. As long as that one copy is in stock they have the right to sell it. I was fortunate in that I was able to get amazon.com to remove the title so it doesn't show up. However there are a number of other online bookstores that still show it available.

Additionally anyone who purchased a copy has the right to resell it

Linda, you can go here and find out if Ingram has any copies. As you can see your first book isn't available. Ingram does have copy(s) of your second book.

http://www.bookmanager.com/tbm/?qs=Linda+Oness&q=h.ts&opt=au&tsf=y&x=14&y=8&nbid=0&sj=0

Dee

CaoPaux

01-19-2006, 09:24 PM

Ingrams' stock number:

(800) 937-8000
opt. 4
ext. 36803
Enter ISBN

This'll give you:

# on hand in storage
# on order by bookstores
# on backorder by warehouses
Current week demand
Last week's demand
Total sales for year
Total sales past year

If there are copies in storage, it'll also tell you in which warehouse.

LloydBrown

01-19-2006, 09:29 PM

Ingrams' stock number:

(800) 937-8000
opt. 4
ext. 36803
opt. 3
Enter ISBN

When I entered the Opt. 3 step, it said "number not valid" and asked me for the ISBN.

CaoPaux

01-19-2006, 10:29 PM

Figures that they'd change it on me! Last time I called, they gave you an option of what info you wanted, and "opt 3" was "all info". I'll correct it. Thanks!

Aconite

01-19-2006, 10:40 PM

Miss Snark has posted a response (http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2006/01/wholesale-pricethe-new-giant-squid-of.html#comments) to the question of whether or not royalties of "10% of wholesale price" were becoming standard. The post includes a discussion of a more precise term than "wholesale," as well as a short note on royalties on net.

TracySutterer & GaryRogers

01-19-2006, 11:43 PM

Below - is another article I wrote about PublishAmerica, enjoy!

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/06jan/article151.html

Argile Stox

Sarashay

01-20-2006, 02:07 AM

Without a BINC, Borders stores can't order that book, no matter who distributes it.

Not entirely true. What a lack of BINC means is that it can't be stocked by the store on the shelf, but that we can try to obtain it as a special order for a specific customer with a little jiggery-pokery.

Christine N.

01-20-2006, 02:57 AM

Ah, yes, I see the difference :)

spike

01-20-2006, 05:24 PM

From PA website:
200 Authors and How They Were Published
John Charles Keohane This work holds two hundred authors in one book, each with their own pages and each with their own stories to tell. These are the authors from PublishAmerica, and this is their book.

To become a published author is a dream come true, but to share that dream is an even greater ambition. Inevitably, it is you, the reader, who ultimately decides which authors make that pinnacle of all heights—the BESTSELLER!

From first being accepted by the publisher to holding those precious author’s copies for the first time, each stage of publication is an amazing one. Each and every one of those stages makes the entire experience a reward in itself.

For those of you who are pursuing your own dream of becoming a published author, this book will be an inspiration. For everyone, 200 Authors and How They Were Published will be an amazing insight into the lives of some very incredible authors.

Although there are many publishers to choose from, all 200 authors featured in this book have chosen PublishAmerica—and with good reason. This publisher is amazingly supportive of new and existing authors, and they treat everyone with the respect they deserve.

This book is personal; this book is special; this book is the TWO HUNDRED.

Am I reading this wrong? Or is this book being promoted as "How To" book with PA as the answer?

Sorry if this doesn't belong here...I always get confused as to what belongs on the overflow and what belongs here.

ByGrace

01-20-2006, 05:59 PM

[QUOTE=James D. Macdonald]It's a phone number. You call from a touch-tone phone with the ISBN in hand:

(615) 213-6803

QUOTE]

Ingram has a toll-free number

1-800-937-8000

ex. 36803

ByGrace

01-20-2006, 06:13 PM

I went to Book Manager when Dee posted the link to Sooty's book. I checked my own. Lurkers, here is another reason not to go with PA. They did not take care to have my name attached to the book I wrote, nor give it the proper genre.

It looks as though the publisher Publish America has sent out the wrong information regarding titles and the authors who wrote them.

I was quite disturbed to find my name attached to a book I did not write, and another author’s name attached to my book Thorns In Eden. Although my books are currently out of print, I am sure these other authors would not be happy to see their names listed as the authors of my books, or my name attached to their books. On Book Manager is the following.

Drop-Ins
by Rita Gerlach
Publisher: Publishamerica Inc {PBLAM}
Paperback (TP) (278 Pages, 6.00 x 9.00) ISBN: 1592862xxx
Published: September 2003 Low Demand
Fiction Thrillers Adventure thriller Crime mystery

Tom Wells is the author of this book, not me. This same thing happened about a year ago on some of the online bookstores. It turned out, by doing a search, that many titles had the wrong author.

Thorns in Eden
by Dallas E Boggs
Publisher: Publishamerica Inc {PBLAM}
Paperback (TP) (327 Pages, 6.00 x 8.75) ISBN: 1592869xxx
Published: September 2003 Low Demand
Fiction Suspense Romance historical

This is my book. I searched for Dallas Boggs over at Amazon and could not find him anywhere, nor could I find a website. On Sooty's Author Guild not long ago, Ed put up a thread where a PA employee was answering questions. She said the 'editors' at PA must meet a quota of books. Could the above be what she was talking about, where she said some 'editor' took titles and names and put them together, making a bogus book, but able to meet their quota this way? The isbn is correct, but not the name. Also this may explain why my local Waldens told me they couldn't get my book in for a customer because it wasn't listed?

This is a sloppy way to run a printing company! I hope PA reads this thread. Although I am free of you, PA, I expect this to be changed. I own the copyright. This is my book. How many other authors have the wrong name or title? I have written to Book Manager.

I suggest other authors check their books at Book Manager and the online stores to see if the information is correct.

Rita Gerlach

rekirts

01-20-2006, 06:19 PM

This publisher is amazingly supportive of new and existing authors, and they treat everyone with the respect they deserve.
My emphasis.

That's a loaded statement if I ever heard one.

PA treats everyone with the respect they think you deserve. If you want respect, better go somewhere else.

shelagh

01-20-2006, 06:59 PM

http://www.bookmanager.com/tbm/?qs=Linda+Oness&q=h.ts&opt=au&tsf=y&x=14&y=8&nbid=0&sj=0

Dee

Dee,
I followed this link but I couldn't do a search on my book. Do you need to register to do a search?

I did a search on bookfinder.com and clicked on a link to chapters.indigo.ca and found that my book has been reduced by $7.76 from $23.50 to $15.74:

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Item=978141377136&Catalog=Books&Ntt=shelagh+watkins&N=35&Lang=en&Section=books&zxac=1

What does this mean. Is this good or bad?

Thanks,
Shelagh

SC Harrison

01-20-2006, 07:24 PM

I did a search on bookfinder.com and clicked on a link to chapters.indigo.ca and found that my book has been reduced by $7.76 from $23.50 to $15.74:

Check again in a few days. Some pricing glitches have shown up recently—it usually goes back up pretty quickly.

Rambling

01-20-2006, 07:57 PM

Dee,
I followed this link but I couldn't do a search on my book. Do you need to register to do a search?

Must have been a glitch - my search worked without registering
http://www.bookmanager.com/tbm/?qs=Shelagh+watkins&q=h.ts&opt=au&tsf=y&nbid=0&sj=0

Sheryl Nantus

01-20-2006, 08:18 PM

still majorly overpriced for the market - that's still about $20 US.

argh.

BeeBomb

01-20-2006, 08:33 PM

This may seem a very stupid question but regarding Sootie's comment about Ingrams having some copies of her book--> if the books are sold, where do the royalties go?
Does the money hang in some nook or cranny, does PA keep it (duh stupid queston...we all know they keep our money) or does someone other than PA send her the royalties? Jean Marie no longer has a contract with PA but I still see her books at Amazon. When her books are sold, how does she get the royalties?

Would it be possible to contact Amazon and the other .com sites asking them where the money goes?

Another thing, one of my books was listed with another person having authored it on indigo.ca. Might check yours out. I wouldn't have know about it but I read a post on the dreaded PA site and found out others had been done the same. I contacted indigo.ca and told them they were in error. They did change it.

BeeBomb

BeeBomb

01-20-2006, 09:10 PM

Want to see a site worth visiting? Go to AddAll.com and key in your book title. One of my books has seven sites stating my book is IN STOCK, some say AVAILABLE, others list POD, or can be ordered. Thirty six sites are listed for up to date books and fourteen for rare, out of print, etc. Strange though, my book is listed in some of the fourteen out of print sites.

How, if Ingrams says they have one listed, do all of these have them IN STOCK? It doesn't say what distributor they go through, I can only surmise! If all of these sites sell several copies of any of our books and PA says otherwise...how in the name of sam hill will we ever know?

There's got to be a way of tracking sales!

BeeBomb

Kevin Yarbrough

01-20-2006, 09:22 PM

Amazon still has a book listed as me as the author even though I'm not. I had this problem with the book when mine came out since the book was released at the same time as mine and I contacted Amazon and they fixed it but it was back again about a year later. I haven't done anything about it since.

PA claims to keep accurate records but yet they can't even put up their own books online under the right authors name, right.

James D. Macdonald

01-20-2006, 09:39 PM

All of those on-line sites could be claiming the same copy when they say "available."

The only way to be sure is to get LSI's records of exactly how many were printed, when.

From Phil Dolan, and used with his permission, here are the stats for his book, produced at his arbitration:

Lightning Source
United States Operating Unit - U. S. Dollar Transactions
Publisher POD Compensation Report for PublishAmerica (6010530)
For Period of Dec-04
Run Date: 09/08/2005
Period: 11/27/2004 To 12/31/2004
Page: 203

ISBN: 1413726372
Title: A Handsome Guy
Author: Dolan, Phillip
List Price: 19.95
Discount: 40%
Wholesale Price: 11.97
Quantity: MTD - 31 YTD - 83
Net Sales: MTD / 371.07 YTD / 993.51
Print Charge: MTD / -118.11 YTD / -316.23
Setup Recovery: 0.00
Net Pub Comp: MTD / 252.96 YTD / 677.28
Recovery Remaining: 0.00

Worth noting: Year to Date printing (YTD) from September 2004 (when the book came out) to the end of December 2004, was 83.

Mr. Dolan received royalties for 59.

BeeBomb

01-20-2006, 10:04 PM

Thanks, sweet Jim. I just emailed LSI and hope they will reply.

BeeBomb

James D. Macdonald

01-20-2006, 10:08 PM

We know for a fact that LSI is not the only printer that PA uses.

LSI may not tell you how many copies of your book were printed. LSI has a contract with PA, not with you. Those records were produced by PA, in the course of a legal action.

Those who have a beef with PA: Phil Dolan has blazed the trail.

Rambling

01-20-2006, 10:20 PM

LSI may not tell you how many copies of your book were printed.

LSI might not say, or LSI is not permitted to say?

mdin

01-20-2006, 10:27 PM

Shelagh-

Your book is listed on bookmanager. You have a 5% discount through Ingram and a 15% discount through Bertram. Your book is also listed as nonfiction.

Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine (javascript:hrow('1');)
by Shelagh Watkins (http://www.bookmanager.com/tbm/?q=h.ts&or_qs=Shelagh%20Watkins&or_opt=au&opt=au)
Publisher: Publishamerica Inc {PBLAM}
Paperback (TP) (197 Pages, 6.00 x 9.00) ISBN: 1413771xxx
Published: May 2005 Low Demand
Juvenile Nonfiction Children s and educational

PubStock Vendor Availability (FOR RETAIL USE) Source OnHand OnOrder Price* % As Of http://www.bookmanager.com/i/UK.png BERT (javascript:popupWindow('/pubstock/companyPopup?acct=BERT'))
POD £12.50 15 Jan20/06 http://www.bookmanager.com/i/US.png IBCTN (javascript:popupWindow('/pubstock/companyPopup?acct=IBCTN'))
POD $19.95 5% Jan20/06 *Prices are in vendor's currency

BeeBomb

01-20-2006, 10:32 PM

Yeah, Jim, I know they may not give me the info but it's worth a shot. If I could find out the other printers, I would email them too. PA won't tell you squat or be forthright with any answer...even when they have egg on their faces...but the whites give them away.

Bee

shelagh

01-20-2006, 10:33 PM

Sheryl Nantus

01-20-2006, 10:41 PM

well, nonfiction isn't right for a start.

that would majorly influence sales - a nonfiction educational book is usually a textbook of some sort.

not your audience AT ALL.

shelagh

01-20-2006, 10:49 PM

I think they are three groups (uppercase suggesting a group):

Juvenile
Nonfiction
Children's and educational

I'm happy with that.

mdin

01-20-2006, 10:57 PM

Thanks for this information, but what does it mean?

You should probably contact PA about it being listed as educational nonfiction. That's something they would've entered when they first listed it. The listing has a direct effect on what type of online bookstores list it. I checked on Amazon and it does list it as both fiction and nonfiction. Bamm (http://www.booksamillion.com/ncom/books?id=3377850787280&isbn=141377136X) lists it as nonfiction. They also charge extra to compensate for the short discount. (Which, btw, is my theory as to why PA stopped printing the price on the books. They were told to take the price off the books or increase the discount or the following stores won't list them anymore. Just a theory.)

Stores get a 5% discount through Ingram, which means that Borders that ordered it for Ken (assuming they got it through Ingram) paid $18.95 for the book. But it also means your book is probably returnable.

Bertram Books gives a 15% discount, and the bookstores in the UK likely get their books through them. I don't know what standard discounts are in the UK, but I suspect they're also in the 40-55% range.

If you want to do the math, you can see why that 5% is so insidious. Ken had to deal with a couple employees to finally get the book. Even if the whole process took only 10 minutes with an employee who makes $8 an hour, Borders is already in negative territory.

ResearchGuy

01-20-2006, 11:26 PM

well, nonfiction isn't right for a start.

that would majorly influence sales....
Maybe so IF it were on bookstore shelves. Bookstores use those classifications to know where to shelve the book. Not on shelves and available only by special order means that the classification (which is clearly wrong in this case) is irrelevant (at least for brick and mortar bookstores).

--Ken

shelagh

01-20-2006, 11:28 PM

Thanks for the explanation! I'm happy with the listings, so please don't get upset on my account. The listings are just fine, and I won't be asking for any changes to be made.

If my book is returnable, that suggests I've sold at least 40 books. That's a relief!

Thanks again.
Shelagh

Sheryl Nantus

01-20-2006, 11:46 PM

you're kidding, right?

first - your book is hopelessly mislabelled. It's NOT nonfiction nor is it educational in the way that most purchasers would see it, like a school textbook.

second - don't count on those 40 sold. PA seems to be tossing up new and old titles into their "return" policy with little logic - IIRC they never confirmed or denied the 40 book limit as what would determine a return policy. As well, we now know thanks to Phil Dolan that PA doesn't always pay out what they're supposed to.

are you that afraid of angering PA that you won't even stand up for your own book?

mdin

01-20-2006, 11:55 PM

I'm curious. Where do you get that 40 number from? It's only returnable through Ingram, and out of curiosity, I called Ingram and checked your sales, and the number isn't 40.

I suspect the bulk of the sales that you didn't personally facilitate would happen through Bertram. Your book isn't returnable through them.

MadScientistMatt

01-21-2006, 12:02 AM

Maybe so IF it were on bookstore shelves. Bookstores use those classifications to know where to shelve the book. Not on shelves and available only by special order means that the classification (which is clearly wrong in this case) is irrelevant (at least for brick and mortar bookstores).

--Ken

For that matter, online bookstores are likely to misplace it. So anyone browsing categories, rather than specifically looking for Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine, may not run across it in looking up the appropriate category. Meanwhile, those looking in the category where it's listed may back away after realizing it's fiction. This miscategorization could hurt online sales as well as book-and-mortar sales.

ResearchGuy

01-21-2006, 12:04 AM

...This miscategorization could hurt online sales as well as book-and-mortar sales.
Good point.

--Ken

James D. Macdonald

01-21-2006, 12:04 AM

The "40" number came from PA's (buy your own books!) letter last September, saying that those who sold 40 copies (buy your own!) in September would get head-of-the-queue (buy forty copies yourself just to be sure!) when it came time to make books returnable.

So far as I've seen, PA has made all of their discounts through Ingram 5%, without necessarily making the books returnable at the same time.

mdin

01-21-2006, 12:42 AM

The "40" number came from PA's (buy your own books!) letter last September...

Ah, yes. I forgot about that. I also didn't realize they were pulling up (down?) discounts on non-returnable books.

Kevin Yarbrough

01-21-2006, 01:22 AM

Here is my book, listed under the wrong author and in the wrong category. The book is horror and it's listed as fantasy contemporary. When you check for my name on Bookmanager you come up with Reynaldo Reyes' book "The Struggle for Peace". This book is listed under my name on Amazon as well.

The Fire Within
by Reynaldo Reyes
Publisher: Publishamerica Inc {PBLAM}
Paperback (TP) (224 Pages, 6.00 x 8.75) ISBN: 1592861xxx
Published: September 2003 Low Demand
Fiction Fantasy Contemporary

Source OnHand OnOrder Price* % As Of
BERT POD £12.50 15 Jan20/06
IBCTN POD $19.95 5% Jan20/06
*Prices are in vendor's currency

orraloon

01-21-2006, 02:03 AM

Because I know that Meiners, Clopper, Prather & Co. are thieves I've long since lost interest in selling my overpriced anthology. Recent posts by Rita and Kevin moved me to check out the sites mentioned. This is what I found -

Bookmanager.com

A Drifter's Legacy (javascript:hrow('1');)
by Eliza Lynn Taylor (http://bookmanager.com/tbm/?q=h.ts&or_qs=Eliza Lynn Taylor&or_opt=au&opt=kw)
Publisher: Publishamerica Inc {PBLAM}
Paperback (TP) (135 Pages, 5.58 x 8.60) ISBN: 1592869xxx
Published: June 2003 Low Demand
Fiction Thrillers special features

AddAll.com

TITLE: Drifter's Legacy
by Eliza Lynn Taylor (http://www3.addall.com/author/11465302-1)
ISBN: 15928-6903-3
Publisher: Lightning Source Inc
Publish Date: 2003-08-23
Binding: Paperback , 186 pages
List Price: USD 16.95

The title and ISBN are OK but for the record the page count is 136.

Way back in early 2004, when I still believed the book had an even chance, I went to the trouble of correcting an identical cockup on Amazon.com (As I recall PA blamed Amazon and vice versa). The PA author named had her book printed around the same time...yes, with Eddie Bruce as the author! We later became friends and were able to commiserate when we realised we'd been conned.

akaa1a

01-21-2006, 03:29 AM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10276

I live in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, and PA recently published my first novel The (Mis)Adventures of Captain Crazy (last October). It's been a somewhat frustrating experience for me, unfortunately.

PA sent out press releases to the news outlets but no one was interested in doing a news article on my novel. I called them and asked them if they'd received the press release from PA and they all said they just filed those away, they didn't have the time or space available to do articles on all of those, but thanks for calling. It was like running into a stone wall, trying to get anywhere with these people.

I called all the bookstores and tried to set up book signings but they all told me that they had to go through their home office and I had to send a "publicity packet" (whatever that is, I never went to the effort to create one, my fault) and their home offices (in New Jersey or someplace like that) would then decide whether it was worthwhile for them to have book signings with me, which may or may not happen after I went to all that work to create the so-called "publicity packet."

The local Hastings said they would consider having a book signing with me, but I had to "bring my own books." What? So basically you're telling me that I have to buy about 10-15 books, then give them to Hastings so they can sell them, and then they get the money from the sales? That makes no sense. I'm on a budget, it's asking a lot of me to spend over $100 on my books, so I can have a book signing.

Most of my friends and relatives bought copies of my book in the last couple of months, and I'm interested to see exactly how many copies of my book sold when I receive my first royalty check.

But without book signings or publicity I don't expect hardly any more of my books to be sold in the foreseeable future.

I am considering whether to try to write a second one or not.Back to top (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10276#top)http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif

Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 291
http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=121400#121400)Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=121400) http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif Don't give up- My hometown treated me the same way, so did the county I grew up in. When I write my bio, how will they feel about me telling how they did not support their own people?
Just keep on writing and letting PA publish your books- who knows, maybe someday you will have a best seller.
Keep your glass half full, not half empty.

******_________________
www.freewebs.com/lamkin (http://www.freewebs.com/lamkin)
Give up before trying, you are dead before dying.Back to top (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10276#top)http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif

Joined: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 20
http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=121401#121401)Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:08 am Post subject: http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=121401) Well it seems that you have run into the same wall we all encounter when first having our book in hand ... The marketing wall ... AND - the biggest mistake an author makes is believing that a book signing is the only way to earn a dollar. I would suggest becoming more internet savvy especially since you live in such a small area.. Did you know that more and more people each year are buying books off the Internet and fewer from local stores? Did you know that in Paris they are experimenting with kiosks that will print a book you order over the Internet and have it delivered to your corner the same day ...

Times are changing for publishers - bookstore owners and writers ... we need to keep up if we are to make any money.. or receive any satisfaction of having our novel placed into an appreciative readers hand.
http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_wink.gifBack to top (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10276#top)http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif

Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 78
http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=121539#121539)Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: i agree!http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=121539) Don't give up! Have you built a website yet? I try to link my website with everything I get published. It's free advertising!!!!

_________________
Visit author Sarah Richard's website at www.publishedauthors.net/ (http://www.publishedauthors.net/sarahvrichard)Back to top (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10276#top)http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif

Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 205
http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=121604#121604)Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=121604) It's a sad thing to say but we all are having trouble selling our books. No one knows about them. The internet is not the answer. Okay, so people buy books from the internet. I have. But they can't buy a book they don't know about. Some people don't have computers. So how will they buy our books?
My book has been out since 2002. Hardly anyone knows about it. Newspapers or tv wants nothing to do with us. There is no ad that will help us. We can't put ads when no one will take the ads.
I wrote one book. Took me ten long painful years. I started two more and deleted them. There is no since me wasting what little time I have writing another book that no one will ever know about.
I have accepted the fact our books are going no where. My writing has stopped. I'm too old to try and force any bookstore, newspaper or anyone else to shelve my book, do an article on it or just plain talk to them about it.
As far as royalities goes, I haven't made enough off my book too too go to dinner. And I know for a fact others also haven't. I have stopped completely. Maybe some of you don't feel the way I do. But, you will. I still wish everyone the very best and still thank PA for publishing my one and only book.

Silent KillersBack to top (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10276#top)http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif

Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 239
http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=121614#121614)Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=121614) The truth of the matter is that none of us may ever become a big time book author, let alone a bestselling author. Then again, you have to ask yourself, is that what you had expected when you first sat down and began penning your story. Some of you mentioned that some friends and family members had actually read your material. Did they enjoy it? If so, then isn't that in itself a form of compensation? Okay, maybe not quite as lucrative as an actual pay-check, but if your goal was to cause a good impression and share what you yourself thought was good, then congrats; job well done. I just checked out amazon.com a short while ago, and discovered that The Chaos Cycle had been upped to twenty-nine dollars for used and new. Not good. However, I have recieved some great reviews as I'm sure that all of you have as well. In other words, people enjoyed it. That means something to me. It means a lot!