The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

[JohannaJ7]

Maybe another couple of thousand hopefuls will hop onboard the PA peace train this week after such a charming and professional endorsement.
Well, if not that, at least Anne Rice will be impressed. ;)

[Savannah Blue]

Renee,
Why has Dee got to be your target? Jealous because she has the fortitude to stand up to PA? :eek

Savannah Blue

[Whachawant]

sheeshh...!!....

quote.."Thanks DeePower, you piece of ..."

You would think those people would get things right.
I'm the sh**!! here....

Oh and the one under that post.... quote "We need to get a F**king life....." (I searched a little on the P.A. board and found out this person has a children's book out with P.A. Would suggest not purchasing it... as a result of the editing department .. they might have missed some words..>: )

"Hmmmm looks like not only is the P.A. staff bad at editing their books ... They're bad at editing their boards....."

:bang

[Risseybug]

"THAT big an issue........." the author's books have her cover and someone else's words inside, that would be a copyright violation among other things"

Not that I defend PA on any level, but this does happen to other POD publishers. I ordered a book, that a friend wrote and self-published. I ordered it and it came with her cover and another person's poetry inside. I assume the machine was loaded wrong or something mechanical went awry. I took it back and got a new one. Oh, now i see, you can't return PA books....

Just letting you know it happens to other companies too. That one is LS's problem.

[ncq13]

Just in case it gets deleted...

Renee, WHOA! What is your gripe with Dee? She is an author that has been published elsewhere and has had problems with PA, so what? Not all publishers are for everyone. If you love PA, well good for you. Those who have had bad experiences and feel as though a company has wronged them, have every right to do something about it. This IS America and that is what we have courts for!
The AW boards have saved me a TON of time, money, and rejection letters, by offering sound advice on a myriad of craft- related issues. There isn't any "us" versus "them" kind of thing going on, it's just a place for writers with OPINIONS (imagine that-- a writer with an opinion) to sound off.
Try signing on over there and having an intelligent dialog rather than sounding off with poor language; maybe we could all LEARN something from each other.
WomanSpeak,
Keep at things, I hope your problems are resolved soon.
~Kate
katestamour.com (http://katestamour.com)

[JohannaJ7]

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10919.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10919.htm)

I'm just curious, where did the whole "scorned novice PA author decides to rally the troup against Our Valiant Publisher" thing come from?

The only "scorned" PA authors I've heard of are those who marketed and worked their arses off, only to be treated like garbage by PA when their books started doing well.

But I guess it's all a matter of what you expect. Some PA authors are happy to sell fifty copies to friends and families, others actually want to have a career in writing.

I have never understood the complaints about
promotion. Pres. Clinton had to do book signings, along
with a whole lot of other people, like everyone who has
a book published. Of course, we won't have quite the
crowds Clinton did, but that's not the publisher's fault.
Well, Carol, I'm willing to bet my firstborn that Clinton didn't have to beg the stores to host the events, or stock the book. Clinton did signings because it's good self-promotion. He's a polician and needs to be in the public eye a lot. It most likely had very little to do with actually promoting the book, as I've heard those things pretty much sold themselves.

[DeePower]

on the PA board, I need it for documentation.

Thanks

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[AnneMarble]

Well, Carol, I'm willing to bet my firstborn that Clinton didn't have to beg the stores to host the events, or stock the book. Clinton did signings because it's good self-promotion. He's a polician and needs to be in the public eye a lot. It most likely had very little to do with actually promoting the book, as I've heard those things pretty much sold themselves.

Also, most authors don't do booksignings. At all. When was the last time you heard of Stephen King doing a booksigning? Didn't he pretty much stop because they got so crowded and chaotic?

Most lesser known authors don't do booksignings, either, or if they do them, they'll do a few in their region. I get the impression that it's more a goodwill gesture than a publicity tactic. Many many many authors don't do any kind of promotion at all. Some because they're reclusive, others becuase they believe the book should speak for itself, still others because they would rather use the money to, oh I don't know, feed their kids. And yet their books still sell, as long as they are in the stores. :eek

[HConn]

Clinton did signings because it's good self-promotion.

I'll bet he did the tour to meet chicks.

:nerd

[JohannaJ7]

Heh, watch them jump all over Kate (Hipwitch) for having an intelligent, informed opinion. Not only are they hysterical, there's some random CAPS abuse thrown in for good measure. And PA is doing nothing to stop them and protect their authors.

[Sher2]

Heh, watch them jump all over Kate (Hipwitch) for having an intelligent, informed opinion. Not only are they hysterical, there's some random CAPS abuse thrown in for good measure. And PA is doing nothing to stop them and protect their authors.


They're jumping her all right, but my money's on Kate. Boy, you've got to wonder what criteria The Logo uses to pull threads. Or maybe not, considering what I saw come out of his/her/its mouth over the weekend. LOL.

[Arden19]

Where is the thread? I'll finally take the time to get a logon over there, and jump in. I mean, please. How much "effort" does it take to resort to name calling?

[JohannaJ7]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/6099.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6099.htm)

But you have to be a PA author to be able to sign up and use the boards.

[DaveKuzminski]

Dee, if the thread is still there, just select "File" on your browser menu. Then select "Save As". When the window opens, change the "Save as type" option to "Web page, HTML only" and give it a "File name" you can remember. Click on "Save" and it will be in a file you can view or print out. If you don't set it to HTML only, you'll also download all the graphics and those will go into a separate directory that your browser will create automatically.

If you can't find it, let me know. I think I already have a copy for documentation. I'll email it to you.

[Risseybug]

That thread is still there, bad words and all. Oh, and we're "those people" now.

Frankly, I'd rather be one of "Them". Not b/c it makes me better, but there is far less hassle in my life without someone like PA.

I truly wish they would see that we are not picking on the authors, some of them have taken this thread quite personally. Some of the posts may have been close to the bone, but overall they have been about the publisher and not the poor souls who have had their books published by them.

It's PA, not the authors.

[DeePower]

I've saved it for myself, but I wanted copies from other people to show I didn't tamper with the file. I have no quarrel with any PA author just because they are a PA author.

I did not sign the termination agreement for several reasons. PA and their attorney of record have the revised termination from our law firm.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[DeePower]

They delete posts at the hint of negativity and this one is still going after two days. Why? Is it perhaps because my name is mentioned in negative terms?

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/6099.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6099.htm)

Dee

Oh and to the gentleman who said I should just get on with what I need to do legally -- there is no s on Power.

[DaveKuzminski]

They leave certain posts online in order to get under your skin. They don't realize that they're also providing additional evidence to use against them.

Now it's too late for them to remove it because doing so won't do any good. They've already demonstrated how quick they are to remove posts, so leaving this on for this long implies corporate agreement with the actions of those authors.

[ProandCon]

Dee's Quote:
"They delete posts at the hint of negativity and this one is still going after two days. Why?"

Are you guys never happy?

First, Ed William's prediction didn't come true about PA pulling the New York Time's thread.

Now, they haven't pulled this postive thread fast enough for you.

[James D Macdonald]

Here we are, a week and a half later. The 19 September New York Times Book Review is wrapping fish, lining birdcages, or gone to the recycling center. How did our lucky authors make out with sales from their big opportunity?

<HR>

<table border=2 >
<tr>
<td align=left>Heroes are Hard to Find
by Mike Looney
ISBN: 1413716679
(April 26, 2004)
</td> <td align=left>
</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>
19SEP04
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 1,250,211
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: 271,631
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 1
On order across all warehouses: 1
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 2
Total sales this year: 19
Total sales last year: 0

</td> <td align=left>
29SEP04
Amazon..com Sales Rank: 1,203,441
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: 258,382
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 2
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 21
Total sales last year: 0
</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>Four Roses for Sarah
by Gerry Edwards
ISBN: 1413733980
(August 9, 2004)
</td> <td align=left>
</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>
19SEP04
Amazon..com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>

</td> <td align=left>
29SEP04
Amazon.com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>

</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>God and Man in Perfect Union
by Joe S. Philip
ISBN: 1413723691
(August 2, 2004)

</td> <td align=left>
</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>
19SEP04
Amazon..com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0

</td> <td align=left>
29SEP04
Amazon.com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0

</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>A Window to the World
by Eunice Boeve
ISBN: 1413732127
(July 26, 2004)
</td> <td align=left>
</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>
19SEP04
Amazon..com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>

</td> <td align=left>
29SEP04
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 2,733,354
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>

</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>The Fairy Chronicles Book One
by J.H. Sweet
ISBN: 1413729789
(July 26, 2004)

</td> <td align=left>
</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>
19SEP04
Amazon..com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>

</td> <td align=left>
29SEP04
Amazon.com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>

</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>By the Water's Edge
by Roger Lee Scott
ISBN: 1413717195
(June 2004)
</td> <td align=left>
</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>
19SEP04
Amazon..com Sales Rank: 2,720,249
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 4
Total sales last year: 0

</td> <td align=left>
29SEP04
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 2,733,125
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 4
Total sales last year: 0

</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>A Handsome Guy
by Phillip R. Dolan
ISBN: 1413726372
(July 20, 2004)

</td> <td align=left>
</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>
19SEP04
Amazon..com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: 79,039
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 9,999
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 2
Total sales this year: 1
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>

</td> <td align=left>
29SEP04
Amazon.com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: 63,347
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 4
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>

</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>Island Of Terror
by Erika Butler
ISBN: 1413721273
(May 17, 2004)

</td> <td align=left>
</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>
19SEP04
Amazon..com Sales Rank: 2,210,901
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: 336,915
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 6
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 4
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>

</td> <td align=left>
29SEP04
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 2,222,659
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: 350,396
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 2
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 1
Last week's adjusted demand: 3
Total sales this year: 7
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>

</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>Pacified Zone
by Gary W. Suffern
ISBN: 1413730779
(August 2, 2004)

</td> <td align=left>
</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>
19SEP04
Amazon..com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>

</td> <td align=left>
29SEP04
Amazon.com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 2
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>

</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>A Word of Encouragement
by Michael Alford
ISBN: 141373264X
(July 26, 2004)
</td> <td align=left>
</td> </tr>
<tr>
<td align=left>
19SEP04
Amazon..com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0

</td> <td align=left>
29SEP04
Amazon.com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: 92,963
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0

</td> </tr>

</table>

[Ed Williams 3]

1. Why the need to point out whether we are right or wrong on what threads PA has pulled? Enough have gone by the wayside over time to make any reasonable person predict that more will follow. Are you implying that it helps PA's credibility to keep these two threads you referenced up and going when they have deleted scores of others in the past that touch on sensitive issues that they do not want their writers to see?

2. My last name is spelled "Williams," and it's "positive," not "postive."

3. If you want to be seen as adding credible input to the discussion, consider revealing who you are and who you work for. As it is right now, disguising your true identity speaks volumes....

[Whachawant]

The 19 September New York Times Book Review is wrapping fish, lining birdcages, or gone to the recycling center.

"Classic!!"

One thing I'm not sure on....
Take "Word of Encouragement"... B & N sales rank for Sept.19 is none, Sept. 29 is 92,963 , is this a result of others falling off the list? How does this happen when the book has no sales?

(This particular book is also $28.95 on Amazon and 14.95 on B & N):wha

[JohannaJ7]

The thread is gone. The last thing I saw on it was H.B huffing and puffing, but that was a while ago.

[HConn]

James, those are sad numbers, but not surprising.

[James D Macdonald]

How does this happen when the book has no sales?

I don't believe that Amazon and B&N sales are reflected in the Ingram's numbers.

As to explaining the numbers, I don't try -- I just report them.

[GigiSahi]

Just a quick note to say many, many thanks to DeePower and several others for your invaluable feedback on my letter to PA. Based on your input, I made the necessary revisions and sent my letter to PA yesterday--and yes, I was a good girl and corrected my typos.

I'll keep you posted on what happens.

ON TOPIC:

Oh, and Dee, there is a wonderful Spanish word to describe what you have--cojones! The literary world could definitely use more like you.

~Gigi

[AC Crispin]

Yes, Victoria, I was the person that PA author chatted with on Aol. I was using my Writerbeware1@aol.com screename, which is why he ID'd me the way he did.

One thing that amazed me about the conversation was that the gentleman in question (and our conversation, though spirited, never degenerated into rudeness or name-calling), had absolutely NO idea what commercial publishing was like. He had no idea that commercially published authors sell thousands of books, as opposed to dozens or hundreds.

And yes, the gentleman was definitely still in the "honeymoon" phase of his relationship with PA. I told him to contact me again in a year or so.

I wonder if there is some way to raise the consciousness level on this? Some kind of comparison/contrast between SOP in commercial publishing, and SOP in POD?

Didn't Jim MacDonald write something along those lines at one point?

James?

-Ann C. Crispin

[James D Macdonald]

Ann, I think the post you were referring to was <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=2021&stop=2040" target="_new">here</a>.

<HR>

Here it is, reprinted:

Print on Demand

<UL>
<LI>A business model
<LI>Prints after orders are received
<LI>Non-returnable books
</ul>

Trade Paperback

<UL>
<LI>Whole-copy returnable paperback
<LI>Usually 6"x9" trim size, but can be the same size as mass-market paperback ("rack-size trade paperback")
<LI>Intended for bookstore sales
</ul>

Mass-Market Paperback

<UL>
<LI>Stripped rather than returned
<LI>Intended for non-bookstore outlets (news stand, grocery store, etc.)
<LI>Distributed in the same way (and often by the same companies) as magazines and newspapers
</ul>

Digital Printing

<UL>
<LI>A technology
<LI>Converts a digital file to a finished book one at a time using a machine such as a Xerox Docutech
<LI>Low setup cost
<LI>High per-unit cost
<LI>No economy of scale
</ul>

Offset Printing

<UL>
<LI>A technology
<LI>Uses large presses and photographic plates to create many books rapidly
<LI>High setup cost
<LI>Low per-unit cost
<LI>Major economy of scale
</ul>

Vanity Publication

<UL>
<LI>A business model
<LI>Author pays the cost of publication plus a percentage to the publisher
<LI>Publisher has title to the physical books on the day they're printed
</ul>

Self Publication

<UL>
<LI>A business model
<LI>Author pays the cost of publication
<LI>Author has title to the physical books on the day they're printed
</ul>

Traditional Publishing

<UL>
<LI>A business model
<LI>Prints before orders are received
<LI>Returnable/strippable books
<LI>Publisher pays author for rights to publish
<LI>Publisher has title to the physical books on the day they're printed
</ul>

[AnneMarble]

Here we are, a week and a half later. The 19 September New York Times Book Review is wrapping fish, lining birdcages, or gone to the recycling center. How did our lucky authors make out with sales from their big opportunity?

That is sad but not unexpected. :(

Wasn't there another author who bought his own ad in the same issue? Does anyone know how he did? (At least he had the freedom of inserting his own ad and doesn't have to buy all those copies of his own book.)

[James D Macdonald]

I think the disgruntled past PA'ers are simply those who's dreams exceeded their ability to speak up and/or read! Ironic as that is for a writer.

No, the problem is that reality trumps wishful thinking. PublishAmerica's business model is designed so that the author can' succeed, no matter how well they've written or how much they promote their book.

And, as Hapi pointed out, no one can read the PA contract and arrive at the correct interpretation. It's deliberately deceptive and obscure. The PA pages are false, misleading, and deceptive (when they aren't outright lying, PublishAmerica is playing word games with the intention of trapping writers).

So, no, Mr. Downen is in for an awakening, and I think it'll be sooner rather than later.

[HapiSofi]

James, that's an extraordinarily clear and useful document. You should put it up on your website so people can link to it.

May I make one small correction, though? Conventional publishers don't necessarily print before the orders are received. On the other hand, they also don't wait until all the orders are in before they print.

For example, here's one way that initial print orders are decided for paperback books: The publisher keeps track of the various chain, bookstore, and distributor accounts, and knows approximately what percentage each account's purchases usually represent of the total orders for his initial shipment of a new title.

When it's time to set the print order for a new book, he'll usually have received some but not all of that month's orders. He takes the orders he does have, plus his accumulated figures on what percentage of his total are usually ordered by those accounts, and uses them to estimate how many copies he's going to need when all the orders are in.

There are other ways to handle that, but you see the point.

Still, your distinction is a good one. A conventional publishing company puts books into print in expectation that they'll sell, even if they don't yet know to whom; and while they may have some orders from booksellers in hand when they send a book to press, those are hard-and-fast orders for returnable books. A POD, on the other hand, prints only when it's got a specific order.

You should mention that as a characteristic of digital printing.

[XThe NavigatorX]

James, I'm too lazy to go back and look. Did you do research on that other book that had its own ad?

[James D Macdonald]

Wasn't there another author who bought his own ad in the same issue? Does anyone know how he did?

The book is Poison Pearls by Karl Stuart Kline, PublishAmerica, February 23, 2004, ISBN: 1413715028.

16 SEP 04
Ingram reports:

2 on hand across all warehouses
0 on order
0 on backorder
0 this week's unadjusted demand
0 last week adjusted demand
17 sold this year
0 sold last year

Amazon Sales Rank: None sold

29 SEP 04
Ingram reports:

2 on hand across all warehouses
0 on order
0 on backorder
0 this week's unadjusted demand
0 last week adjusted demand
17 sold this year
0 sold last year

Amazon Sales Rank: None sold

[PixelFish]

Also, most authors don't do booksignings. At all. When was the last time you heard of Stephen King doing a booksigning? Didn't he pretty much stop because they got so crowded and chaotic?

Sorry, saw this comment above, and thought that it was both right and wrong.

Lots of authors do booksignings still. In the last year, I've been around for a handful, including Orson Scott Card and Neil Gaiman.

BUT...referring to a remark in Terry Brooks' autobiography/writing book, it's usually not a good idea to indulge in signings until you've got more than a few books under your belt. Terry said that he insisted on doing a signing shortly after the first Shanarra book came out, and was touring with a veteran author. So he go to watch as all the veteran author's fans would come up to the table and either totally ignore his book, or ask him if he'd written anything else. He said he should have been at home working on his next book, because all the people who showed up for his signing--specifically just for him--already had the single book he'd written, and he didn't have anything else to sell them.

(Folks who have actually published books can either back me up or correct me on this--but it seemed like sound logic to me.)

[AnneMarble]

I wonder if there is some way to raise the consciousness level on this? Some kind of comparison/contrast between SOP in commercial publishing, and SOP in POD?

Too bad we can't persuade CSI or Law and Order to do an episode about a mystery involving a vanity or POD press. ;) (I do think there's a great mystery novel in this. Any takers?)

If a lot of the writers you wanted to educate were SF fans who regularly attended cons, I'd suggest writing a commercial publishing versus POD filk...

[James D Macdonald]

One of the many folks who keep me posted on what's up with our favorite vanity publisher clued me in to this astounding thread:


<BLOCKQUOTE>
Renee Bagley


9/24/2004
16:29:55
Subject: Publish America called me!!!!!!!!!!


Message:
As some of you know I have been trying to get my first book listed with Ingrams courtesy of PA, through emails. Well guess what? Publish America employee, Ashley, called me on the phone today to let me know some changes concerning Ingrams distribution.

There are now new requirements that Ingram's requires to have your book stocked with them.

TANGLED WEB was made in the 5 1/2 X 8 1/2 format in 2003. Now that Ingram's policy has changed Ashley let me know that Publish America would be re-formatting my book into the required 6 X 9, so that Ingrams would be allowed to carry it!

I am soooooooo thrilled!!!!! Publish America is re-formatting just to make this work!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been talking through email with PA about this for awhile and I knew my kind persistence would eventually pay off. But I never thought that Publish America would be able to re-work it, just for me.

Again, thank you Publish America for everything you have done for me in the 2 years I have spent as a proud, Publish America author.

And THANKS ASHLEY for being so professional and caring!

Uhhhhhhhh, can you feel the excitement?

Sincerely,
Renee Bagley
www.reneebagley.com

PS- TANGLED WEB is being re-formatted today and Monday. Then it will be available in 1-2 weeks!!!
kas

9/24/2004
16:42:45


RE: Publish America called me!!!!!!!!!!


Message:
That's super Renee. Gosh, mine is the wrong size too. oh, well. good for you.
SCHarrison

9/24/2004
19:02:17


RE: Publish America called me!!!!!!!!!!


Message:
Great news, Renee! From what I have learned so far, getting into Ingram's system is the best way to get distributed into brick and mortars. I wonder if they plan to change the format across the boards for all of us. It would seem like the smart thing for them to do.

Steve Harrison
Undeserved Trust
</Blockquote>

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10907.htm " target="_new">Publish America called me!!!!!!!!!! </a>


This is amazing. This is astounding. This is so wrong.

Ingram has no requirement -- none -- to have books trimmed to a certain size to be listed or warehoused. Didn't in the past, don't right now, won't for the foreseeable future.

Either Ashley is making it up as she goes along, has not a clue about Ingram, has not a clue about bookselling, has not a clue about books ... or Renee misunderstood on a massive scale.

But, tell me, guys, isn't one of PA's claims that they list all their books with Ingram? Don't they say that right on their web page? And as far as "getting into Ingram's system is the best way to get distributed into brick and mortars," it's not sufficient. There are lots of other steps along the way that the publisher needs to take (but that PublishAmerica doesn't take).

This is so jaw-droppingly weird. I wonder if Ashley was covering up for PA forgetting to list Renee's book with Ingram in the first place.

So much for the "professionals" at PA.

[RealityChuck]

(Folks who have actually published books can either back me up or correct me on this--but it seemed like sound logic to me.)Essentially correct. I had a similar experience at a Worldcon. I was doing a signing and got pretty lonely, while the author next to me had a long line of people asking to sign his book.

And remember, this was a Worldcon, with maybe about 5000 avid readers wandering around (and my book available in the dealer's room). The authors who had names and reputations drew hundreds at their signings; the unknowns would get a handful of people at most.

It's worse if it's in a regular bookstore. If you're an unknown, you may get two or three sales in an afternoon.

Now a reading can sometimes be useful for a small press author. You read your book (usually poetry) and start flogging copies. Since they have heard what you can do, some of the audience may decide to pick it up -- if you have it there to press right into their hands. If they have to go home and order online, it's not going to happen.

The people who put their faith in book signings should ask themselves one question: how many books have they bought at booksignings? And how many of those were by authors they hadn't heard of before the signing? I'm betting most people will say zero.

And if they don't buy a lot of books at booksignings, what makes them think other people do?

[vrauls]

I wonder if there is some way to raise the consciousness level on this? Some kind of comparison/contrast between SOP in commercial publishing, and SOP in POD?

OK, I had to interject. What about finding a first-time author, published through a traditional publisher, and tracking their sales compared to PA? You could even potentially interview the author as to their publishing experience (not "was it great?" but "what was it like?"). Find someone picked from the slush, with no agent (it does happen). Compare Ingram sales numbers as well as local store availability. And use the author interview to prove that they didn't buy their own copies, didn't market themselves, and so on.

[James D Macdonald]

Find someone picked from the slush, with no agent (it does happen).

Okay, here's one:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312878621/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Bad Magic</a> by Stephan Zielinski.

I happen to know about this one because I read it in galley and wrote a blurb for its cover.

This one is a first novel; it came out of the slush, unagented.

Please notice that it's coming in December '04 and already has a better Amazon sales rank than most of PA's "best sellers" from August (per their ad).

Someone else can do the author interview and sales tracking.

[SRHowen]

I think what is needed is a sales tracking. Agented or not. Take a "best-selling" book and then a PA book and do just that, track the sales, track the entire experience, editing, publicity etc and go from there.

HMM, maybe my next interview for WCP could include this--I may do it.

Off to do some searching and research. Anyone with info they want me to consider for inclusion e-mail me at srhowen@wildchildpublishing.com

I'll take author experiences on both sides of the fence. First books.

Shawn

[Gala]

just glanced at reality c's posting.

I agree known authors generate more traffic at book signings. I mean, if no one knows you exist, how will they know you do?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The people who put their faith in book signings should ask themselves one question: how many books have they bought at booksignings? And how many of those were by authors they hadn't heard of before the signing? I'm betting most people will say zero. <hr></blockquote>

I attend book signings and speakings with the intent of buying the book. Unless the author is a jerk. Happened only once so far. And I even buy pod books from nice people ;) I figure what comes around goes around. And I love it when people ask for my signature ;)

[HapiSofi]

Bad Magic! What a swell book! (I got an advance copy, bwah-ha-hah.)

Another book plucked from the slush: China Mountain Zhang, by Maureen McHugh. It wound up being nominated for the Nebula Award.

There are lots more, but I'm busy right now. Anybody who tells you that nothing ever gets published out of the slushpile is talking through his hat.

[publishorperish]

How about nothing that isn't ready, saleable, or well-written ever gets out of the slushpile (sp?!)? I've always wanted to read the stuff in a slushpile.

[James D Macdonald]

I've always wanted to read the stuff in a slushpile.

No you don't. You may think you want to, but you don't. It's mindnumbingly dull, for the most part. (Sometimes it's amusing, like the guy who included picture postcards to prove that Hartford, CT (where he'd set his tale) really exists. But mostly it's mindnumbing.)

To approximate the slushreading experience, try going over and reading iUniverse novels -- they provide full texts on their site.

Or, go to Google and type in "sample chapter" + PublishAmerica.

Or, go to Fanfiction.net and start reading.

Or, make friends with a local publisher. Ask if you can read slush for him.

How about nothing that isn't ready, saleable, or well-written ever gets out of the slushpile?

Or which the editor thinks will be saleable and well-written after it's edited. The main thing you're looking for is: It must be interesting.

[publishorperish]

Or which the editor thinks will be saleable and well-written after it's edited. The main thing you're looking for is: It must be interesting.

I think this goes without saying, but should be said *EXPLICITLY* anyhow.

[HapiSofi]

Remember: We're a branch of the entertainment industry.

[arainsb123]

"Or, go to Fanfiction.net and start reading."

Yeah, the stuff on there is pretty bad. I really feel sorry for editors now!

[Kate Nepveu]

I usually go to readings and signings of authors I already know. So I don't think I've ever bought a book at a reading or signing that I wouldn't otherwise have.

(On the other hand, seeing an author's name in any non-horrible context is more likely to get me to pick up their book sometime later and look at the cover, the back, and the first chapter or two. And if I happened to be in a store where a reading was going on, and it sounded interesting, I would definitely check out the author [my husband discovered a great singer-songwriter this way once].)

_However_, I have bought several books of authors who said interesting things online, or in panels at conventions. So take that for what it's worth.

[ncq13]

So, a fellow PA author emailed me today and mentioned how odd it was that B&N won't stock PA books when they own PA.
Say What? ! I told her B&N does not own PA, as far as I know, and I'm waiting to find out who told her that little gem.
Has anyone else heard this tripe before?

Kate (http://katestamour.com)

[AnneMarble]

Has anyone else heard this tripe before?

Somebody probably has PublishAmerica confused with iUniverse. B&N has a rather large investment in iUniverse. (But even iUniverse authors have a hard time getting their books into the B&N stores.)

This mistake didn't necessarily come from someone associated with PA. Somebody might have half-remembered a press release or something, somewhere.

[ncq13]

Thank you Ann! I have passed the info along.

[arainsb123]

"_However_, I have bought several books of authors who said interesting things online, or in panels at conventions."

Do I say interesting things?:)

[ProandCon]

Well, Ed hurt the one feeling I had left a couple of days ago but I'm back today feeling good.

I know catching that one word not spelled correctly made Ed's day. I'll have to give him that one. You sneaky little detective!

I'm real proud of your hard work in catching that error and now, I have cake on my face for jacking with people about their spelling. Watch out! I'll do it again!

Anybody got a book out that I can buy and read? How about you, Ed?

I'm ready to buy a few books to see just how good my fellow AW writers are professionally.

I promise you I will read it and give your book a fair review. I may even post the review (good or bad) on PA's message board.

Come on fellow writers! You want to make that royalty fee don't you?

P&C

[James D Macdonald]

Has anyone else heard this tripe before?

There are two possible sources for this confusion: One is that B&N has an investment in iUniverse (they've been selling it off -- it was once 49% IIRC, it's now down to 22% or so).

The other source is from one of PA's form letters to disgruntled authors:

<blockquote>
"Do they [Barnes & Noble] sell print-on-demand books? You bet. They run their own on-demand presses, and they are now doing the printing of an ever-growing number of PA titles themselves, because they sell so well!"</blockquote>

That gives the impression that B&N prints PA books. (In fact, B&N got out of the on-demand printing business over a year ago.)

[James D Macdonald]

Anybody got a book out that I can buy and read?

Sure, P&C. Lots.

I haven't had a novel published in around a year, I'm sorry to say, but I just had a short story this month.

The story is in Murder by Magic (http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=2181&sourceid=35067313&bfpid=0446679623&bfmtype=book) edited by Rosemary Edghill, published by Warner, ISBN 0-446-67962-3. MbM is a 352 page trade paperback, and lists for $13.95.

You can find it on the shelf at your local bookstore.

Just for example, there are copies on the shelves at every Borders (http://www.bordersstores.com/search/search.jsp?tt=gn) within twenty-five miles of Frederick, MD:

Frederick
5533 Urbana Pike
Frederick, MD 21704
Phone:301.624.1577

Germantown
20926 Frederick Rd.
Germantown, MD 20874
Phone:301.528.0862

Gaithersburg
534 N. Frederick Ave.
Gaithersburg, MD 20877
Phone:301.921.0990

Hagerstown
17636 Garland Groh Blvd.
Hagerstown, MD 21742
Phone:301.745.5897

(Is there any PublishAmerica book that can make that same claim? If so, what's its ISBN?)

In case anyone's wondering about MbM's sales, here are the stats:

B&N sales rank: 11,584
Amazon sales rank: Book is not yet listed

Ingram stocking information:

On hand across all warehouses: 581
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 23
Last week's adjusted demand: 34
Total sales this year: 103
Total sales last year: 0

Publishers Weekly called my story in that anthology "the standout," and I can live with that.

[aka eraser]

I'm in ProandCon, that is, unless you're limiting yourself to novels.

What Fish Don't Want You to Know published by Ragged Mountain Press - ISBN 0071417141.

I have no idea if the store nearest you has a copy in stock but if they don't they can get one in a day or two.

[DaveKuzminski]

If you consider ebooks, you might want to try Knight Spirits, ISBN 1-55404-094-9, published by Double Dragon Publishing and available at Fictionwise, E-bookdeals, and other online bookstores.

[Ed Williams 3]

"ProandCon," glad to see you back. My second book, "Rough As A Cob: More From the Juliette Journals," has been out for about a year and has hit #1 in the "Regional Subjects - South" sales category for Amazon Japan, Amazon Canada, and Amazon Germany. Also got to #10 in the U.S. as well. My first book, "Sex, Dead Dogs, and Me," was stocked nationally by the Books A Million chain.

You can easily find out how to order it on my website, www.ed-williams.com

Re a review on the PA boards, I imagine that would make my sales skyrocket, as y'all all buy each others books over there, don't you?

[vstrauss]

Ah, ProandCon. Pretending to be a newcomer, are we? Tsk tsk.

- Victoria

[Ed Williams 3]

You don't mean to imply that "ProandCon" has been here before, or has any affiliation with PA, now do you?

:shrug

[DaveKuzminski]

I have to admit that there's one question that probably can't be answered that I'm curious about. Just how long would such a review remain on that board once the monitors discover it's for a non-PA book, especially should it be for someone who's outspoken about PA?

[James D Macdonald]

Wow. Murder by Magic is on the shelves in only four out of the six Borders stores within 25 miles of Cleveland, OH. (Maybe they sold out in the other two stores. Who knows?)

It's like PA keeps saying: there's no guarantee that any particular book will be on any particular bookstore's shelf. It's like I keep saying too: that a legitimate publisher will do everything they can to get their books on the shelves of as many bookstores as they can. The way publishers do that is with distribution and marketing, two things that PA doesn't have.

Is there any PA book on the shelves in four of the six Borders within 25 miles of Cleveland? If so, what's the ISBN?

[Whachawant]

Is there any PA book on the shelves in four of the six Borders within 25 miles of Cleveland?
---"....more accurately,...is there any P.A. book on a shelf anywhere?... I'd say we're all so sick and tired of P.A.'s phony promises and play on words, I'd settle to see one of their books in a cheap display at a Mac's convenience store..."

James..
I checked out the book, Looks good! Cover is fantastic. I like the subtle 'grim reaper' in the background.
B&N sales rank: 11,584..? when I checked it it was in the low 10,000's. and it's been out for a month!! Already blowing any P.A. sales or P.O.D. 'publisher' out of the sky... You and the fellow authors must be pleased.......

CHEERS!:thumbs

[HapiSofi]

Hiya, Pro. I have one book out that's all mine -- it's in its third edition -- and I've had shorter pieces in lots of other books and magazines. My writing is voluntarily read by 40,000 - 60,000 readers per month.

Professionally, what I read is more important than what I write.

And you?

[Gravity]

Mine's called Until the Last Dog Dies, out this past June from Cook/RiverOak (ISBN 158919021-1). It's in most, but not all, of the BAMs, Borders, B&Ns, and Bereans across the country. I also have a contract from them for the next one, When Skylarks Fall (pub date June 2005).

My PA novel from 2002 doesn't count as a publishing credit, as right now it's as dead as Julius Caesar.

Thanks for asking!

[ncq13]

Gravity,
It is nice to know that a PA book is not a death sentence. Thank you!

[Whachawant]

It is nice to know that a PA book is not a death sentence.

Hell no ncq13,.... giving up is a death sentence....

[James D Macdonald]

It is nice to know that a PA book is not a death sentence.

Just there's no need to mention it in your cover letters or bibliographies.

[Kate Nepveu]

Re: _Murder by Magic_: And hey, I see it's on-shelf at my preferred Borders in the area. I will stop there on the way home and pick it up, since Amazon is being stupid about listing it.

Cool!

[DaveKuzminski]

Anyone know what's happened to the PublishAmerica Yes or No? site?

Does anyone have his email address?

[AnneMarble]

Re: _Murder by Magic_: And hey, I see it's on-shelf at my preferred Borders in the area.
My Barnes & Noble had three copies of it on the shelf. Now they have two. :grin
I will stop there on the way home and pick it up, since Amazon is being stupid about listing it.
Yeah, what's up with that?! :head

[DeePower]

Below is an email posted at the PA site

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/6156.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6156.htm)

How can this event be used to show PublishAmerica is posting false statements on their web site.


Begin Post:

Here's something from Dan Poynter I think you should be aware of:

INGRAM DISCONTINUES STOCKING PRINT-ON-DEMAND BOOKS

"Print-on-Demand" (POD) book publishing has grown impressively in recent years. Once a technology most often associated with vanity presses or
obscure academic material with limited public appeal, POD has more recently gained growing confidence from mainstream publishers and bookstores.

Previously, the leading wholesale distributor of POD books, the Ingram Book Company (IBC) typically kept one or two copies of each title on hand, permitting rapid fulfillment of orders from retailers.

But according to breaking reports from publishers, IBC will no longer warehouse even one or two copies of most POD books.

The new IBC policy appears to impact even POD books with steady public demand and those that are fully returnable. In other words, in most cases Ingram will no longer warehouse POD books at all, even when several are sold every month and/or the publisher agrees in advance to buy back any unsold
inventory.

As a result, when booksellers want to order POD books, they will see no stock on hand and will need to backorder. The problem with this scenario is that many retailers are reluctant to backorder, since backorders traditionally take weeks or months to fill. While some argue that Ingram's POD printer, LightningSource, Inc. (LSI) has proven its ability to deliver
backordered books in days, many booksellers still require at least a bare minimum of stock before they report ready availability to consumers.

Leading online booksellers are already starting to list longer shipping times for some POD books, up to 10 days or more in some cases. Some dotcom retailers, such as BarnesandNoble.com may not show some POD books available
at all, when Ingram has literally zero copies on hand.

As a result, pundits quip that LSI's slogan "The Power of One" may need to change to "The Power of None."

For POD books with moderate public demand (even as few as 5-10 orders per month) the abrupt IBC policy change almost certainly means fewer sales.

In theory, the idea of printing books only after they are ordered by consumers remains an exciting concept; however, in real life it is slower and less efficient to print books that sell steadily, month after month, one at a time.

Moreover, publishers who offer books on a returnable basis (normally required for stocking by major bookstores) agree in advance to buy back unsold inventory, and question why IBC will not maintain dependable inventories, when the publisher assumes all the risk.

Some publishing industry observers speculate that the policy change by Ingram comes in response to a flood of marginal POD books from vanity presses in recent years; many of these releases sell few (if any) copies after publication. Tens of thousands of vanity press titles, multiplied even by one or two copies each, could be responsible for a huge accumulation
of books with dismal sales records in IBC warehouses.

However, the new IBC policy fails to make distinctions between POD books with proven public appeal and those that are returnable, versus the glut of non-returnable vanity press material that may be clogging Ingram warehouses.

It also seems unlikely to clear out any accumulation of marginal books, since most of them are non-returnable. Meanwhile it may hurt better POD books that are returnable and/or sell regularly, leaving their authors and publishers to scramble for better distribution options on short notice.

Ingram is trying to educate the stores according to David Prentice at LSI.

Some observers find this development an example of "punishing the innocent" while "protecting the guilty," and likely to reduce the revenues of Ingram itself, along with its better POD publishers.
********************************

Dee

[Whachawant]

Holy crap!... tell me that's not another nail in P.A.'s coffin. Now they're pretty restricted to online sales. Which I've found out sucks large!!

Cruising around the P.A. site and looking for responses to :jaw this new information proved to be enthralling...
quote.."........... I am not concerned, someone else will pick up the ball, there are too many books being published this way......"----...that's optimistic....

A couple other posts revealed the hardship has already started to hit the hearts of these pro-P.A. advocates. Both decided to market their books in local stores. Both decided to speak with the manager of the business. They were greeted with 'nice book' too bad I can't order it. :head The one manager simply stated that he receives his books from Ingram and that if it isn't stocked there, then he can't order it, not even direct from the publisher. The author offered to purchase the books for the store to sell, but the manager said that his hands were tied. The 'upper' management would not allow such a deal. :smack

You would think that these people would finally see that real publishers don't have this much trouble....however, some still seem to think that dragging their feet through the mud will eventually lead to positive results.
I wonder what the rest of the POD world thinks of this development. Hmmmm....perhaps the next thing you'll see, will be POD publishers with their own stores...
(Ironic,... isn't it?):wha

Oh... and if anybody's interested..(I'm not sure if this has been previously posted) While on a site,...there's a way to track sales of a book for Ingram. Dial (615) 213-6803,(automated) and enter the books ISBN number. It'll present you with a sales list.
:cheers

[JohannaJ7]

Actually, isn't that pretty good news for PA? I mean, their authors will probably get nervous about losing readers and might order a couple of dozen books or more each, just so that they will always have books on hand for stores and potential customers or signings.

[Whachawant]

I suppose that's one way of looking at it....
....or the authors could look at P.A. and say "hey,...what have you done for me lately"

They're already starting to ask questions,... most of which have not been replied to on their board. Probably because P.A. doesn't have any answers at present moment.......

[arainsb123]

I think that's incredibly sad. What about small presses that use the POD technology?

[Sher2]

I think that's incredibly sad. What about small presses that use the POD technology?

I agree. This will adversely impact the small, legitimate presses that use POD technology.

I don't know for sure, but I've heard that this is a direct result of the recent verdict against Ingram's, Lightning Source, and Amazon.com for illegal use of POD technology.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think that's incredibly sad. What about small presses that use the POD technology?<hr></blockquote>
We are one such small press who uses the digital technology. Let's not get confused by lumping PODs together. POD is a business model as Uncle Jim printed up a couple pages back. Digital technology is great for small fries like us to print up quality work with smaller print runs.

You ask how the small fries will be impacted and that is a two-pronged answer. First of all, the little guys like us do print runs in the hundreds, have the obligatory return policy, discounts, yada, yada. As demand increases, we'll switch over to offset printing. So, for us, the Ingram thing doesn't impact us.

But for the small guys who don't do print runs and don't warehouse their books, they'll be impacted greatly. And that is the sad part because there are a number of good PODs out there. Worst of all, the authors will be impacted.

I think this whole announcement is an object lesson in the course of natural selection. Ingram can't be expected to warehouse millions of books for the simple reason that they’re hampered by finite shelf space.

This is an addition to the ever-changing paradigm that is influencing the publishing industry right now and companies will need to re-evaluate how they do business. Those that can compete won't be affected with this decision. Those that can't compete with the changes will have to decide whether they want to change their business model or take the risk that their customers will be willing to wait a couple weeks for the book to be printed up.

[Ed Williams 3]

...on the PA boards....

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/6163.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6163.htm)

Man, any writer would be so much better off to let a local printer do their books than to ever let PA touch one of them. I recently spoke at a writer's forum sponsored by the Macon Telegraph, and had a woman come up to me afterwards who was visibly upset. Turns out that she had recently signed with PA, thinking that her book was going to be stocked in bookstores all over America. It was so incredibly sad, I had to tell her that she would be doing good to be stocked in a bookstore or two in Macon, and after selling 50-75 books to relatives and friends that PA would forget she ever existed. Her question to me - "How do these people get away with this?" My answer, "Because trading off people's dreams to obtain $$$ is about as old as the world's oldest profession, but at least with that you do get something in return."

[lastr]

As a comparison point - what another POD publisher has proactively sent to its' authors on the Ingrams situation. FYI this is one of the dreaded vanity model publishers that PA warns their authors against. :grin

October 1, 2004
Dear Author,
At XXX Company, we take great pride in the service that we provide authors, and we work closely with our printers and distribution partners to ensure timely and consistent ordering, printing and fulfillment. In August, XXX Company experienced noticeable decrease in sales to retail bookstores. We immediately contacted our primary print partner, Lightening Source and have been working closely with them for the past two weeks. I am writing you now to give you an update on this issue and our short and long term plans, and to dispel some of the rumors that have been circulating regarding the future of print on demand titles.
Background
For many years, Ingram Book Company has purchased and maintained in its warehouses a copy of every print-on-demand title distributed by Lightning Source Inc (LSI). Of course, all XXX Company titles were included in this program. Initially the books were stocked to overcome some of the typical retailer system hurdles, and to improve the visibility and ordering of our titles. Ingram purchased each title on a non-returnable basis, and authors received royalties on the sale. Unfortunately, to date many titles have not generated sales and Ingram is now in possession of obsolete inventory. (Lightning Source has experienced tremendous, accelerated growth, with over 250,000 digital books available through distribution services—so even if a percentage of those titles aren't selling through Ingram, it adds up to a big inventory issue.)
Due to business pressures, Ingram decided in August to change its stocking policy, and that change had a ripple effect with retailers. While retailers are technically able to order LSI titles through Ingram, their systems cannot automatically "see" that a title is available. So, the policy change at Ingram had the unforeseen effect of retailers reporting to customers that print-on-demand titles are no longer available for order.
I can assure you that Ingram is absolutely committed to the growth and development of print on demand publishing. The current issue with retailer ordering systems has caused Ingram to accelerate the start of a long-awaited stocking strategy for POD titles. Today, Lightning Source is working with Ingram to integrate stock leveling and improved manufacturing speed to the benefit of XXX Company authors.
Where are we headed?
Ingram has initiated a long awaited transition to a new stocking policy for POD titles. Ingram expects to complete the transition no later than the end of the first quarter of 2005. At that point, books ordered today that are not stocked will be printed and shipped in 24 hours or less. Books ordered today all ship the next business day—both softcover and hardcover. Books that have established a sufficient sales history will be stocked and shipped the same day.
How will it work?
Under Ingram's new stocking strategy, LSI's improved manufacturing turn around time will allow Ingram to show titles as active for ordering with next day delivery from the LSI printing facility in Nashville and rapid delivery from the West Coast. When the stocking strategy is fully executed, retailers and libraries will be able to order multiple copies of books, without being forced to backorder—a practice that discourages some booksellers. Ingram's new program has been designed to ultimately increase sales as customers will be able to order more copies without having to backorder. What will happen in the meantime?
With the holidays approaching, XXX Company, LSI and Ingram want to ensure that retailers are able to order your book. Working closely together, we have agreed on the following interim solution:
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp We have granted LSI the right to print two copies of every new XXX Company title, and to reprint two copies of any XXX Company title that has had a sale through Ingram in the past twelve months. ·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp These two copies will be stored at Ingram on consignment. That means that Ingram will not purchase the copies in advance; rather, when a retailer orders a copy, Ingram will then pay LSI.
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp When a book sells your earnings are be reported and paid in accordance with our terms. The only difference is that your earning starts with the sale of the book by Ingram, not at the time Ingram places the initial stock in their warehouse.
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp This is an interim plan that will be in effect until the Ingram stocking strategy is fully implemented. Because the books will physically be in inventory during the transition period, retailers' systems will "see" that inventory is available and will once again be able to automatically place an order.
I am in daily contact with LSI and Ingram, and am able to report that getting this transition plan in place is a top priority for both companies. We anticipate that the situation will be resolved in early October.
How are specific titles or retailers affected?
Barnes & Noble and bn.com and others who order direct from LSI for softcover books, will see little change. Amazon will show 24-hour availability again. Other retailers who order through Ingram (rather than direct from LSI) will still have access to all titles. And of course, customers can always place orders through the XXX Company online bookstore or through our customer service department.
We are working closely with Lightning Source and Ingram to make sure that each of your titles are always available and that every book order is filled. We expect the new stocking program to be fully in place by the first quarter of 2005 but are confident that the interim solution will resolve the immediate ordering issues that you and your readers have experienced. We will keep you up to date as more information become available on the progress of Ingram's' new stocking initiatives.
Sincerely,

[bluwinteryfox]

What does one need as proof that PA has returned to you the rights of your book. I ask because a friend of mine sent letters to the AG of MD, the BBB of MD, & PA. She also filed a complaint on the FTC sight. Yesterday she informed me she has her rights back because PA no longer has her book for sale nor is it listed anywhere on the PA site.

My question is, doesn't she need in writing something saying her rights have been returned?

Monique

[Sher2]

What does one need as proof that PA has returned to you the rights of your book. I ask because a friend of mine sent letters to the AG of MD, the BBB of MD, & PA. She also filed a complaint on the FTC sight. Yesterday she informed me she has her rights back because PA no longer has her book for sale nor is it listed anywhere on the PA site.

My question is, doesn't she need in writing something saying her rights have been returned?


She does need something in writing, Monique. A verbal agreement is worth absolutely nothing. If her book has been withdrawn from the PA bookstore (and what about other sites?) but she hasn't been sent anything in writing, this is something else she might wish to bring to the AG's attention. Moreover, she won't be able to attempt to sell her PA book elsewhere without written proof that it's no longer under contract with PA.

[DaveKuzminski]

It might help her if she writes those agencies once more letting them know of the latest action by PA of removing her book from sale without returning her rights. If the publisher doesn't intend to sell it, the only decent thing to do is return the rights.

[XThe NavigatorX]

A couple days ago I tried to order a (non-POD) book through a BN store that had 0 in stock, and I was told their computer systems wouldn't allow them to even place an order for it.

That means until they fix what's happening right now, PA books are no longer able to be ordered through BN if that one remaining book has already left the Ingram warehouse. Zero in stock, zero on order, zero backordered = not available to be ordered any more.

If this One Source program deal doesn't implement any time soon (I think they said end of 1st quarter 2005), it's going to be a long, cold winter for many POD authors out there.

[ncq13]

A friend of mine has a sequel to her PA book just about ready for submission. Since her contract with PA is still valid with the first book, can she legally submit the second to another publisher? I told her that she probably couldn't unless she terminates her contract since characters from the first reappear in the sequel. Any thoughts?

[Ed Williams 3]

...to another publisher, provided she has not signed a multi-book contract with PA, and I haven't heard of them doing that with any of their authors. Not that maybe they haven't, but I haven't heard of it.

[AC Crispin]

Your friend owns those characters, not PA. You're confusing copyright with publishing rights, a common mistake, but a very damaging one.

The only way PA would have any claim on the new book would be if her contract was an older one that still had their option clause in it.

I understand that PA has now dropped the option clause from their contracts, and that this has been true for close to a year now.

Again, I repeat: all PA has the right to is the BOOK they contracted to publish. The characters and settings belong to your friend. She can write as much as she wants about them. She signed over the right to PUBLISH with PA -- NOT her copyright.

Clear?

-Ann C. Crispin

[JohannaJ7]

Happy cinnamon-bun day, everyone!

And people are still waiting for their royalties?: www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10954.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10954.htm)

That's pretty messed up, if you ask me.

[vstrauss]

>>But according to breaking reports from publishers, IBC will no longer warehouse even one or two copies of most POD books.<<

This is sure going to make it harder for PA to deny they're POD...

- Victoria

[Whachawant]

FROM THE PUBLISH AMERICA SITE....
FACT #8: ALL publishers use digital (Print-On-Demand) technology for printing, from all major publishing houses such as ********** down. In fact, ********* produces significantly more print-on-demand books than PublishAmerica. They also use the offset technology. PublishAmerica uses the offset technology occasionally as well, each time a larger run is necessary.

---"All use p.o.d."---is this true?
---"P.A. uses offset tech as well"--- has anybody heard of this fact?

Everything concerning Copyrights with P.A. is displayed on their website....you just have to look for it. Strangely enough they do describe what they do in some detail. However, being over anxious, most fall into the trap of P.A. The big thing they advertise is that its up to the author and not them to market the book. This is probably one thing that is overlooked by most,... and reality sets in when they realize they have no book sales.

As for the royalties, those people on the link are assuming they're 'in the mail', they may have a long wait. Curiously, I checked out the titles and the authors names. when I made reference to their sales rank on Amazon or B & N, some have no sales at all. Due to the recent crap with Ingram,...I'll have to agree that the immediate future looks gloomy.

[Sher2]

The big thing they advertise is that its up to the author and not them to market the book. This is probably one thing that is overlooked by most,... and reality sets in when they realize they have no book sales.

Actually, when I saw the following on their FAQs page, I interpreted it quite differently:

"Question: What are my obligations as an author?
Answer: An author’s obligations are few, since he/she already contributes the lion’s part by having written the book. We are very conscious of that fact. No book was written overnight. It has cost most authors a year or longer to write it, and often many more years to let the creative process well up.
We are also conscious of the fact that seeing your book in print is a life-defining moment. It is something an author never forgets for the rest of their lives. It is something to enjoy and celebrate. Therefore, the obligations should be minimal.
The author has really only one obligation: to provide us with the completed final-version manuscript. We’ll take it from there.
Does this mean that the author must sit on his/her hands after signing the contract? Not exactly. We expect the author to actively promote the book whenever and wherever possible."

I took it to mean that I would be required to cooperate in marketing/promotion, with which I had no problem whatsoever. It never occurred to me, however, that the entire burden would be on me -- not only promotion but actually selling the darn thing. Literally. Out of the trunk of my car if need be. It didn't say any such thing on the PA Web site. It didn't say any such thing in my contract.

The still-missing royalties in conjunction with the Ingram situation makes for a gloomy future indeed.

[Whachawant]

Actually, when I saw the following on their FAQs page, I interpreted it quite differently:

This is true Sher2,... however,.." that's on their FAQ's page"...

If you go to the 'MARKETING INFORMATION' page their 'helpful tips' tell quite the different story.....

www.publishamerica.com/MarketingInfo/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/MarketingInfo/index.htm)

Quote " ....This is the area where we'll provide information on how you can go about promoting your book. We'll provide tips on how to:

Build a better web page. (note that its both words conjoined on their site,...which is incorrect.EDITING)
Plan a Successful book signing
Organize a media event, such as a radio or television interview, or get a book review or article in a newspaper or magazine.

.......
.......
"The most important tip that an author should keep in mind, however, is this: Nothing, and we mean nothing, is better for a book than a proactive author. The more an author does to promote their book, the more success they will find."

So far, when I read this it means a big investment on the authors part. P.A. is correct in saying they wont ask for anything from the author in the way of funds. However when you read this posting it indirectly states you're making money for them!!! They don't promote anything(at least not on a regular basis) and they're claims of having books in bookstores has yet to be proven to myself.

Build a better web site? ---Professional grade websites with all the bells and whistles, takes talent, patience and money. These guys aren't cheap.... you want something eye catching, you pay for it. Then you need a service provider, which is a monthly expense.
Prints in magazines, at least ones that get noticed, run into the high hundreds, and possibly thousands, depending on quality and size.

A television event?... this is a huge expense. With cameramen, editing, graphics, air time..... c'mon
I know a few camera men, their daily rate is in excess of $400.00,... and everything else on top? Holy Shhhhhh...ugar!!!

....and of course there's the last statement. The more you promote, the greater your success. Sure if you're ...Stephen King. Even on their 'so called fact page' it states........ We expect the author to actively promote the book whenever and wherever possible. Absolutely... so long as no monies come out of the authors pocket at the start, it makes sense. But I think we've all come to the conclusion that this company doesn't make sense.

[lindylou45]

Hmmmm....perhaps the next thing you'll see, will be POD publishers with their own stores...

Bookman Publishing is a POD publisher that just opened it's own bookstore in July. Do you think they saw this coming?

[Ed Williams 3]

....I imagine PA couldn't care less about the Ingrams situation. They've never been about getting books into legitimate bookstores in the first place, so the Ingrams situation gives them one more excuse as to why more PA books aren't stocked. Also, they could use this to urge their authors to redouble their efforts to make sales to friends and relatives, thus boosting their income, as it apparently now is the PA author's only avenue for book sales. If I were a PA author I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on PA to fix the Ingrams situation, it plays right into their current business model....

:wha

[KW]

If you go to the 'MARKETING INFORMATION' page their 'helpful tips' tell quite the different story.....

This is a fairly new thing though Watchawant, us older authors never seen that since I think it was added after they released their marketing book. What was asked, when I signed the contract over two years ago, was to make myself available for signings and readings in my area.

Plus, there is this.

www.publishamerica.com/agent.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/agent.htm)

"All of our accepted authors are offered a standard contract. It includes the whole nine yards, from editing to cover art design to full retail availability. Our books are being sold through all major retailers, from Waldenbooks to Borders, from Barnes & Noble to B. Dalton, from Amazon.com to our own online store. We also include an author guided direct-mail campaign, plus eBook conversion."

I have yet to see an Ebook of mine yet.

Kevin

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>All of our accepted authors are offered a standard contract. It includes the whole nine yards, from editing to cover art design to full retail availability. Our books are being sold through all major retailers, from Waldenbooks to Borders, from Barnes & Noble to B. Dalton, from Amazon.com to our own online store.<hr></blockquote>
Kevin, they can say pretty much whatever they want. It becomes a different enchilada when they put it in a contract.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I have yet to see an Ebook of mine yet.<hr></blockquote>
They used to do e-books but got caught using the same ISBN #'s for both; a big no-no. You'll notice that's why the few hardbacks they had have disappeared as well. Guess they didn't want to go to the expense of getting another ISBN #. <img border=0 src="http://www.absolutewrite.com/images/EmoteShrug.gif" />

[Whachawant]

This is a fairly new thing though .....

Ah I see,.... perhaps it was posted to cover their butts after past repercussions.

I also noticed they say they supply books to Walmart.(rather odd, considering Walmart is a discount store and I can't see anybody paying P.A. prices) Hmmmm! ...I went on their site and after searching through 30 titles,... not one of them had Publish America as a publisher. (Still Checking)
Direct Mail campaigns are a farce. That's one scam helping another. They truly don't do much.

I, personally, have never had a P.A. contract in my hands to cross reference what was said with what is actually agreed to. Question is, "Is everything that is on the site now, in regards to duties on either party, in the contract.". If not I'd make sure I warn as many people as I could not to go with P.A.

And now the Rip-Off Report......

www.ripoffreport.com/resu...mit=Search (http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0&submit2=Search%21&q5=Publish+America&submit=Search)

(Edited to try to shorten that lengthy url to avoid side-scrolling)

[BeckEaston]

Walmart does all their purchasing through Anderson Merchandising for book products. To date, according to a letter I received from Walmart, no book from PA has ever been stocked on their shelves. However, individual managers have the right to veto corporate policy, therefore letting an individual author who knows the manager, sell his book in one store. Another deception of PA. Not really false, but altogether hardly true.

:smack

[arainsb123]

"I, personally, have never had a P.A. contract in my hands to cross reference what was said with what is actually agreed to."

PA offered me one a few months ago. I can email it to you if you want.

[KW]

They used to do e-books but got caught using the same ISBN #'s for both; a big no-no. You'll notice that's why the few hardbacks they had have disappeared as well. Guess they didn't want to go to the expense of getting another ISBN #.

I knew why they stopped Lynn, but they still had the Ebooks around when I signed on to be an author. I thought that was going to be an added perk, guess not.

As for them saying whatever they want? Yeah, they can, but what they post on their website should be what they do or else it can come down to it's false advertising and/or misleading information. If not, it should be at least. Car dealers who post in an advertisment, or on their website, about how much a car costs, or deals available can be sued for this if they don't do what they say they will. If you are told that you are getting a new car at 0% intrest, seen it in writing, for five years and you later find out that this was not true, the car dealer could be sued for false advertising. Or so it has happened to a car dealer around here recently.

Kevin

[Whachawant]

Yeah, they can, but what they post on their website should be what they do or else it can come down to it's false advertising and/or misleading information

---True....but only if the right side wins. Just because you take somebody to court doesn't guarantee you'll make an example out of them---

The problem with the judicial system, "in any civilized country", is that it protects the guilty as well as the innocent. Seeing as P.A. keeps expanding, I'm pretty sure they could hire a half decent team of lawyers to quash any problem 'Joe average' might have.
.....and can probably fill the courts with motions and appeals till the other party dies or the company goes bankrupt

[DaveKuzminski]

KW, that was an interesting link to the PA agent information. In effect, PA's notice that " PublishAmerica, Inc. pays no fees to agents when we accept their clients' works. We are not in the referral fee business at all. Whatever money you make on representing your clients is, and should be, based on the particular agreement that you have with them." effectively states that they won't work with legitimate agents who are paid commissions based upon sales to publishers, but will work with scam agents who charge representation fees up front to authors.

[vstrauss]

>>I'm pretty sure they could hire a half decent team of lawyers to quash any problem 'Joe average' might have.
.....and can probably fill the courts with motions and appeals till the other party dies or the company goes bankrupt<<

Questionable agents and publishers like to threaten legal action, but they rarely follow through. For one thing, legal action is expensive. For another, it involves discovery--which cuts both ways. They don't want to risk exposing their business dealings to the light of day.

- Victoria

[DaveKuzminski]

I will echo Victoria's response. Several "agents" and "publishers" have threatened P&E/me with a lawsuit. In some instances, I have simply ignored them and nothing happened. In other cases, I told them I was looking forward to it as my side would have discovery and invited them to ask their lawyer what that meant. So far, eight years of operating P&E and not one lawsuit.

Of course, it doesn't keep some of them from initiating smear campaigns. However, that's just plain stupid on their parts because it provides more evidence that can be used against them later if anything ever does go to court.

[Whachawant]

O.K. Dave,... you be the echo...I'll be the re-verb.(lol)
These responses are obviously a flip of what I tried to describe..... I'm talking about one individual trying to take on P.A. .... The "individual" being the instigator. Obviously a larger company could sue one single person, if they wanted to, but what would they get out of it. "Nothing" ...and, don't be fooled, if they want to cover something up, they'll find a way.(I know its possible) The legal system is also a chess game.


This is also why (I hope) that a larger group of people, (former authors or anybody with a grudge) will band together and hit companies like P.A. where it hurts. Yes it costs money, it'll involve a hell of a lot of research and time ...something places like P.A. bank on.:smack

[publishorperish]

I'll fourth Victoria, Dave, and What... .

[BeckEaston]

Litigation is not just about discovery, expense... etc. That is only one ingredient to an otherwise complex issue. I did file suit against PA. I went to talk to lawyers and I had the money to do it. I had legitimate complains about promises that were not followed through. I had a manuscript in my hands that was finalized and never used. (To date my novel is unedited and selling that way) I had considerable loss of consideration with regard to self-promotion. I had PA web site printed pages. I had all the things that every single author who has every complained about PA had. I even had proof of sales made after the release of my book. With all that, and much more abusive business e-mails, I couldn’t get it done. Every single lawyer (Believe me there were several) in the business as well as the Attorney General told me that "legally," I have absolutely no case against PA. It's how the law is written in Maryland.

Some people say we are "smearing" PA or that we are simply not doing anything or that no lawsuit had been filed, is simply wrong. Some of us tried our best to get something done, and was simply extinguished. I for one, talk about PA because authors do read these message boards. I know for a fact that I have stopped authors who want the benefits of major publishing and had contacted PA for a contract. They were more educated in their choices. That's what I'm about...not smearing. It's about Education.

I agree and have been told that the only way for this to become a case against PA is if everyone banned together. I don’t see that happening any time soon on the horizon.

:head

One more additional fact: I looked in the library of congress to see if any PA author was registered while I was in that part of the country. Guess what? None, nada, nothin, not gonna happen.

[publishorperish]

BeckEaston's story implies that PA's actions are legal. I'm not sure that a class action suit would work any better than a single individual going up against them. I guess the only thing to do is to keep warning people and try to undercut their potential customers.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Every single lawyer (Believe me there were several) in the business as well as the Attorney General told me that "legally," I have absolutely no case against PA. It's how the law is written in Maryland.<hr></blockquote>
Becca, in a case like that where you have copyright infringement, you don't need to submit to Maryland law. You, the aggrieved author, can have the case brought to your home state. Trust me on this one.

[Risseybug]

I wish someone would educate these poor people....

They all have this thing in their head that it's THEIR responsibility to sell their books. That money to market them should come out of their own pocket, since they saved so much money by publishing with PA. Uhg.

Not that an author shouldn't promote their work, but the woman with the legitimate questions is being fed the company line by the other authors. I hope she doesn't swallow it.www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6199.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6199.htm)

[Whachawant]

I know for a fact that I have stopped authors who want the benefits of major publishing and had contacted PA for a contract. They were more educated in their choices.
---Good for you Beck,.... its a start, that's what counts....!:thumbs

Some of us tried our best to get something done, and was simply extinguished
----This resorts back to my 'Joe/Jane average comment' ....odds are against him/her

......all of this is starting to sound like a comment I made a while back,..... maybe the system should be reviewed and revised. Instead of going after companies, go after the legislation that makes their actions legit. I don't know how hard that is, (nor do I want a 10 page/posting discussion on it) , but are there any brief comments on this?

[BeckEaston]

The only thing that continues to surprise me is that after everything has been said and done, authors are amazed that PA still is misleading people. The legal fact is that they are marketing under the Maryland’s Law (Where they do business) legally. Hate to say it, but it's true.

My state recognizes Maryland Law. In addition, I as the bereaved author, am a company in the eyes of this law. Try filing company to company in court. It has to be civil and frankly, there hasn’t been a lawyer who will touch it yet with the evidence they've received thus far. There isn't enough compensation in it for them. Period. It's not worth those blood sucking humans conscious to do it to help someone. (Can ya tell they are beginning to piss me off?) They want money! So, legal action sometimes just doesn’t work.

Thanks though for the support.

[DaveKuzminski]

And that, my friends, is why PA and their trolls frequent these forums in an attempt to undermine any watchdog site they can because that is the only real opposition they face at present.

If you want to do your writer friends a real favor, always recommend to them that they check out Writer Beware, Absolute Write, Writer's Net, Speculations, P&E, and others before they sign on with any publisher. Also, ask them to pass that on to any new writers they meet. We're not asking for their money. We're not stealing their rights. We're not stopping them from being published. We're just offering the truth about the industry from the top to the scummy bottom so that writers can swim these waters safely.

[DeePower]

Our law firm will pursue whatever legal action we feel is necessary against PublishAmerica. We have a basis for a civil suit. It will cost time and money and patience.

However I am begining to feel like a vulture. "Patience? .. Hell.... I'm going to kill something."

You know I was just thinking. And this may be way off base, BUT.... One of the problems with pursuing any legal action through the attorney general's office in Md is that the complaintiff, that's the authors, has to show that they have been monetarily deprived, PA took something of value from the authors under alledgedly false pretenses.

Now PA makes a huge big deal on their website, correspondence, email and I believe the ad on the NYT although I haven't seen that, that PublishAmerica is a traditional publisher, just like Random House. PA is very selective in the manuscripts they select. PA does not, oh no, no, no, accept anything that comes across the their virtual desks. Miranda Prathers said they reject 80% of the manuscripts submitted to them. They read every word before they accept a book for publication. Just like traditional publishers.

So it would seem to me (this is not legal advice) that any manuscript they accept would have the value of the average first time book accepted by, oh perhaps a Random House? Or a Harlequin, or a Penguin?

Anybody have any hard data on what advances are for a debut novel by a "traditional" house. Not just any house, but a major house since that's who PA compares themselves with.

Think about the beauty of this logic. PA can't say the book doesn't have any value because that would contradict everything on their website. And they can't admit that the manuscript is only worth $1.00 because they are very clear that $1.00 they pay as an advance is only a symbolic advance.

They can't say these are first time authors and they couldn't and wouldn't be published by a big house so the books aren't worth anything. They can't say the sales of any particular PA book are so low that it proves that particular PA book doesn't have value because the sales are low because bookstores won't shelve PA books.

They can't say the books have no value because they are badly written, they can't say the books have no value because of poor quality. Or that they are poorly edited, or badly designed covers, or that book reviewers won't review the books.

So, what's the average advance for a debut novel?

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>They read every word before they accept a book for publication. Just like traditional publishers.<hr></blockquote>
If they do, they must read it over and over and over again or suffer from serious short-term memory. Sorry, Kevin, I just couldn't resist. <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif" />

[snarzler]

I can think of a certain manuscript that would give you that feeling after the first thirty pages...

Andrea :peace

[BeckEaston]

I think that the best conclusion from this very appropriate discussion with regard to PA should suggest to new authors and past alike, that they should seek council advice before concluding business as "lessoned learned" with PA. Every single legal case is different. None of us here are lawyers. (Well-said Dee!) Each case has it's own merit according to the state in which you live. If you feel violated, taken advantage of, mislead, a victim of fraud or whatever your concern is, then you need to seek appropriate support for your cause. The main thing to remember is that just like any other crime, publishing companies who treat authors the way that I have been witness to, will continue to do so time and time again, until the day someone shouts, 'Its not going to happen anymore!' I think Dee is doing a wonderful job at it. I hope that others follow her example regardless of what is posted here.

:peace

[Whachawant]

One author managed to get some answers from 'Lightning Source' web site post which made him breath a little easier. With a few authors were relieved, but, still asking questions, about the recent P.O.D. Ingram stocking demise................

Quote:"

New Ingram Stocking Strategy Announced
We are pleased to announce that Ingram Book Group and Lightning Source (LSI) are initiating a new program for the stocking and fulfillment of LSI books. This new stocking initiative embraces a true print-on-demand inventory model - sell the book, then print the book.

Since the inception of Lightning Source seven years ago, Ingram supported the development and growth of the print-on-demand industry by stocking copies of on-demand books. Initially, on-hand stock needed to be shown to avoid retailer-ordering issues. Because of the amount of time it took for a traditional order to process, sometimes weeks, retailers often would not place backorders for books when there wasn't sufficient stock on hand at the wholesaler. Many retailers have selected to block backordering in their ordering systems, even though on-demand books were being printed in a few days.

Ingram, until recently, worked around these problems by buying at least two copies of LSI books (often on a non-returnable basis). This practice helped overcome most retailer backordering issues and allowed Ingram to maintain regular service levels. However, the cost of this practice became prohibitive, as the library of LSI's titles grew to more than 150,000. At the same time, LSI's manufacturing capabilities advanced to the point that many books are now manufactured in less than 24 hours. Consequently, the timing is right to evolve to a business model that is more in line with the original vision for print-on-demand.

What is the new strategy?
While it will take several months to implement, the new strategy is designed to take full advantage of the promise of print on demand. With the rapid turn around available today from LSI, inventory can be manufactured and sent to Ingram for order consolidation and shipment on a next-day basis from Nashville. Books will be printed as they are ordered, and all LSI titles will display as active and available for ordering from Ingram and on iPage. Backordering of these titles will not be necessary. Ingram will continue to stock certain titles with a demonstrated sale history under their standard stocking policies. These titles will continue to be available for same-day delivery.

Addressing the backordering concern, the new program will also ease the ordering of multiple copies of books. Under the old minimum on-hand system, if enough copies were not shown, larger orders would require a backorder, once again creating a hurdle for those retailers with "no backorder" policies. The new system is designed to increase sales by filling every order, without delay, at the exact quantity desired by the retailer.

When is the new plan expected to be in place?
It is our intent to have the plan fully implemented by the end of the first quarter of 2005. In the meantime a transition strategy is being implemented immediately to stock on-demand books that have proved sales, and all new titles as they are added into the library.

What is happening in the meantime?
During the transition period, and to support inventory needs in the upcoming holiday season, LSI will fund the printing of at least one copy of all new books and any currently out of stock books with a recent sale history. These books will be placed in inventory at Ingram. Each time Ingram sells the books they will be reordered and this sale "reorder cycle" will continue. LSI will credit the publisher the standard publisher compensation (wholesale price less the cost of printing) for each Ingram sale. This is an interim plan that will be in effect until all LSI books are fully integrated into the new inventory strategy in the first quarter 2005. All titles will continue to be available through Ingram and our other distribution partners.

During this time of transition, it is important to note that your titles will remain available and orderable at Ingram. Thank you for your patience during this time of transition as we work to keep your titles available. We will continue to keep you informed and post regular updates on our website. " ----(wait for comment)---
:head

[AC Crispin]

Hi, Dee and others.

It's obviously impossible to give any hard and fast figures for debut advances, but this has been my experience on the subject.

1. Debut advance for a brand new s.f. or fantasy author is usually in the 5000 range, give or take 2000. I've heard of lower advances being offered, but not usually by major publishers.

2. Debut advance for a category romance book can be lower. I've heard that Harlequin/Silhouette offer only a couple a of thousand routinely. Of course, once you get into the more distinguished romance imprints, the advance goes up significantly, even for a brand-new author.

3. Mystery advances seem, from what I have heard, to start out higher than either s.f. or romance. I've heard figures of 8000 and up. But I'm not as familiar with the business end of mystery books as I am with romance or s.f./fantasy.

4. I have no idea about the beginning advance for horror, techno-thriller, westerns, suspense, or literary novels. Maybe James MacDonald does? Jim?

-Ann C. Crispin

[AC Crispin]

FYI, I checked with the Maryland Attorney General's office yesterday, and the complaints against Erica House/Publish America are beginning to mount up. They've more than doubled since last year.

I think the challenge I posted a couple of months ago may be having an effect.

Also...the AG's office seemed a great deal more interested in the PA case than they ever had before when I spoke to them. I can't reveal what was said, of course, but I am encouraged. I also finally got a name for someone connected with this case. Beth Silverman

So, if you have been considering writing to the Maryland Attorney General's Office, but haven't done so yet, I believe now is the time.

Here is the address:

Office of the Attorney General
Consumer Protection Division
200 St. Paul Place
Baltimore, MD 21202

Attn: Beth Silverman

May I also suggest that if you have written before and have not heard back, that you write again, this time to Ms. Silverman's attention?

For suggestions on what subjects to cover in your professional, cogent, well-written and NON-RANTING letter, see my previous post on the subject, made a couple months ago. If some kind person would look it up and re-post it, I'd be most grateful. I use Aol and for some reason I can't cut and paste that kind of stuff.

Best,

-Ann C. Crispin
Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com

[BeckEaston]

Ann, thank you so much. I have been telling everyone to do the same. I went to Maryland this past month and spoke to a person at the Attorney General's office as well. My contact was Larry Munsen originally. So I want to encourage everyone on this forum to resubmit their evidence to her contact. The old contact information I had will be listed below. It's important to every new author as well as every single person that has been caught up in this mess to be heard!

Here was the old contact information that appears to be no longer effective. If you have sent your information to this person/address please resubmit to Ann's new contact.


Old Information:
State Of Maryland
Office of the Attorney General
Consumer Protection Division-Mr. Larry E Munson
138 East Antietam Street, Suite 210
Hagerstown, Maryland 21740-5684

Ann's New Information:
Office of the Attorney General
Consumer Protection Division-Beth Silverman
200 St. Paul Place
Baltimore, MD 21202

:clap

[Whachawant]

Right on!

Looks like the cans of "whoop ass" are being stocked on the shelves....!!!>:

[ncq13]

This entire experience has been getting to me lately and is definitely effecting my creativity. I can't help but wonder if my book is even worth pitching elsewhere. Granted, I have had positive feedback from readers who have read excerpts and positive feedback from a few unpublished authors who have read the MS, but I have had zero input from any "professionals" and I am left to wonder if the MS has potential for sale elsewhere. I'm at a place where I'm wondering about breaking my contract. Of course, why bother if it isn't suitable for print elsewhere?
My current project has already received positive feedback from an editor I am looking to pitch to, so I suppose I'm not exactly a hack. But, I am so disheartened of late that I can't even work on my current project.
Anyone up for an interesting read out there and willing to give feedback?

[BeckEaston]

Absolutely! There are a great many professionals on this board. Betty and Ann are just some. Give them an opportunity to evaluate based on their extensive credentials. No matter what though, don't get down. PA did that to me a while back and I can tell ya, I had such a hard time getting my confidence back. Read books, join a writing workshop, and look at book clubs for verbal inspiration or anything you can do that might help. For one, stop looking at all the negative publicity. That only makes it worse. I had to pull myself from this PC and the boards for a long time to regain the creativity that PA sucks out of people. Don't let them do that to you - to your craft - and to your ability to get the career in writing you deserve. That would be tantamount to criminal. Take some time, go out into the world and regain whatever inspired you in the first place. I would be willing to read the book too. Whatever will help?

Page 131! If You think you have a case...Get your rights back! Don't let them keep your book. Get it done now!

Good luck to you. Chin up, smile...we're all here with you.

[DaveKuzminski]

I've noticed among the pearls sent to me that Hipwitch is quoting James Macdonald's very apt phrase that money flows to the author. I suspect she's another good author who will soon realize that PA isn't for her.

By the way, Dee, you should offer a comment to Publish America Yes or No? about PA's logo under their name. After all, you can prove that logo is a lie since they haven't paid you and a number of other authors for books that you know were sold.

[ncq13]

Actually Dave, I am Hipwitch. I have learned quite a bit here and hope that some day I can help another author out.

[ncq13]

Thank you for your sage words. I actually had a few hours, the first in at least a couple of weeks, that were productive and creative!

[Ed Williams 3]

Looks like our friend (you pick):

Canada James
Dodgem James
James McCann

just got tossed from the Mindsight boards - what a shocker!

www.mindsightseries.com/c.../4315.html (http://www.mindsightseries.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-auth.cgi?lm=1097023138&file=/3831/4315.html)

:wha

[Whachawant]

That guy's been tossed off of more boards than a young Wayne Gretzky.
What the hell's his problem?

[Ed Williams 3]

...he talks out of both sides of his mouth, is somewhat condescending, and strongly resembles a Rubbish America sockpuppet. At Mindsight, he basically tried to start up another flame war with Dave, and the denizens there rightly got tired of it, so Mr. McCann is off yet another board.

:eek

[aka eraser]

It's unfair to discuss CJ/DJ/JM in a forum wherein he can't respond.

I have my theories about his banishments too and if he's interested in hearing them my contact info is easy to find.

[HConn]

Hi, guys.

I don't think we should talk about someone who's been banned and isn't able to defend themselves.

sorry about the crosspost

[DeePower]

I have done a little posting on different boards asking if PA authors have received, what they believe to be the correct royalty amount. It's interesting how many responded no.

I have contacted the controller of LightningSource by fax and of course PA by fax and email. If I don't get the documentation I requested by the end of the day Monday, or a satisfactory explanation, I believe I am going to report PA to the IRS.

Royalties are considered income and subject to income tax. If PA doesn't pay the correct royalties, the author is not getting the correct income and the IRS is getting cheated of the taxes on that author's income.

The IRS doesn't like getting cheated.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I believe I am going to report PA to the IRS.<hr></blockquote>
My, my, my, it does appear as though those wagons are circling ever tigher around the baying wolf. You go, Dee. Methinks a lot of people will be hearing about these guys real soon.

[Risseybug]

I hate to say it, but unless PA is paying anyone over $600 a year, they aren't going to care much. That's the minimum you have to make for "independent contractors" or misc. income. PA should give you a 1099-misc form, but ONLY if they paid you over $600, b/c that's the only time you have to claim it as income.

So unless someone is owed that much...

[Amie87]

I've only been lurking lately, but I thought you guys would like to know that PA has wormed their way into Fanstory.com, a writing site I sometimes participate in. Fanstory announced the big partnership today. I posted two messages in their forum about why PA was bad news and the site owner deleted both of them.

So if anyone here wants to venture over there and clear up the misinformation....

Amie

[lucyishome]

I actually contacted the IRS the other day by phone to inquire about freelance income that had to be reported. I asked what the amount had to be before it had to be reported to the IRS and the rep stated $400. Now not to say that they would not make a big deal about $600 I just do not want anyone to be confused about how much they can make before having to report it. Forgive me if this is not correct that is what they told me.

Anne

[winniemitzandme]

When we had our taxes done this year, our CPA questioned me why PA sent me an 1909 form? I asked why not, and he said unless I made $600 or more, no need to report it. But, since PA sent the 1099 I would have to go ahead and list the small amount as income.

You would thing that someone at PA who takes care of this stuff would know this.

Of course, that does not excuse PA from reporting their income made from the books they sale, since they are the ones who makes the big bucks. I wonder also, since Mr. M is not a citizen (at least I don't think he is) of this country, does he report all income? Since PA would be considered a small business, then the income or loss of income can be attached to both their incomes (Mr. M and Mr. C) I wonder if they get a refund every year?

But, also, since LSI must report their income, and they are the ones that prints up the books PA sales, their recores must be right, leaving very wriggle room for PA to fudge on their books, but plenty to fudge on the authors as far as royalties goes.

V

[AC Crispin]

Just for my own idle amusement, I looked up the website for reporting criminal tax fraud.

Here's the site URL:

www.treas.gov/irs/ci/ (http://www.treas.gov/irs/ci/)

There's a link on this page to click for Criminal Investigations.

There's also a phone number:

1-800-829-0433

Obviously, as is the case for any whistle-blower, anyone who reports tax fraud is going to get a whole lot more attention if they give their name, have their facts organized in a clear, coherent fashion, and can provide documentation of their allegations.

-Ann C. Crispin

[DaveKuzminski]

The IRS should rightly be interested in PA. After all, if PA is under-reporting one category, namely royalties, then that means that other revenue categories are also incorrect so that funds will balance. Sounds to me like that would add up to big bucks on PA's end even if it's small amounts on the authors' side because PA is making its profit based upon quantity by getting money from many authors instead of just a few.

So, does anyone think that Willem, Larry, and Miranda will like their new accommodations at Club Fed and Camp Cupcake when the IRS catches up with them?

[lindylou45]

I've only been lurking lately, but I thought you guys would like to know that PA has wormed their way into Fanstory.com, a writing site I sometimes participate in. Fanstory announced the big partnership today

I received an email from a member of that site and gave her information regarding PA, including the URL's to AW and MS. She forwarded them on to the owner. She emailed me the other day and said the owner had gone with them anyway.

I'm sure PA told them we were all a bunch of "scare-mongers" who are instigating a "smear campaign" and "telling lies, falsehoods, and half-truths about their company". That's what they told the MD AG's office in a letter of rebuttal to my complaint.

I shot back a letter of rebuttal of my own - 66 pages of my story and documentation proving PA to be the fraudulent company they are. James MacDonald and Dee Power were both extremely helpful and I really appreciated all of their help. I sent that letter to Larry Munson - so when A. Crispin gave the new contact - I wrote another 13 page letter to her as well.

As I've said on another forum - even if nothing happens and the MD AG's office does not investigate (I fervently hope they will, though), I'll know I've done everything I can to make the situation right. I've contacted the MD AG's office numerous times - the FTC - the Ripoff Report - and the MD BBB.

After all of that -- PA still refuses to give me my rights back. My book sold (and this is extremely embarrassing to admit, so please be kind) ten (10) copies. I'm disabled and on a fixed income - I can't afford to buy my own books and sell them out of the trunk of my car. I can't personally go to every bookstore in the surrounding four states and beg and plead bookstores to give my abhorrently overpriced book a chance. And I told my friends and family NOT to buy anymore of my books when I became aware of just what PA was.

According to PA all of those things make me a failure. That's why my book only sold ten copies, making me a some total of $12.36 on my royalty check and PA a whopping $142.20. A book like that - you gotta see why they won't give me my contract back. Spite - pure and simple. She's been a bad PAvidian - let's punish her by making her work for what she wants. No problem - I've worked all my life - I can work for this too.

:grr

[DeePower]

and neither is your book.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[DaveKuzminski]

Well, I just joined and left a simple message advising writers there of sites where they can read about PA. Here's hoping that opens a lot of eyes and starts a lot of questions.

It took less than an hour for someone to monitor the message I left and delete it. I received a private message that it's against their policy for anyone to post a URL in their forum.

[Whachawant]

I checked out the (I believe second) posting you did Dave. Although 'certain' people said it was harsh, perhaps the message penetrated the walls of ignorance anyway. Hopefully, the people involved in the 'partnership' will see some error in their ways too. However I believe that's in the category of 'time will tell'......and you'll be happy to know the current people on that board are already doing their own research.....
".....good work soldier!":thumbs

[Ed Williams 3]

...as well, although I am sure it will be pulled soon. Interestingly enough, on the "PA partnership" thread there, one of the writers did some research on PA and listed off a lot of "goodies" for everyone to consider. They also added that there was not a lot of good news in general out there about PA. So maybe people are starting to wise up just a tad.

:grin

[Risseybug]

I actually contacted the IRS the other day by phone to inquire about freelance income that had to be reported. I asked what the amount had to be before it had to be reported to the IRS and the rep stated $400

Ok,then. I just know that I don't get a 1099 form from the company I sell products for (but am an independent rep) until they pay me $600.
Maybe it's different for freelancers.

[DaveKuzminski]

I responded to the site operator's message that site URLs and site names were not allowed because those were considered advertising. I pointed out that my intention was clearly educational. He responded that he could see that and would make an exception. I have reposted those site names and URLs there for their authors to check on their own. In the interest of fairness, I even listed Author's Market while pointing out that it's actually sponsored by PA and can only be posted to by PA authors.

[Amie87]

I just visited the Fanstory site a few minutes ago, and Ed's and Dave's posts were still there.

I should add - for any Fanstory folks that wander over here - that I don't think the site owner is a bad guy. He seems to be genuinely trying to create oppportunities for the writers who participate at Fanstory, and he got hooked by the same misleading PA propaganda that has fooled a lot of other people as well. I hope that no one else gets hooked, too.

[Sher2]

I should add - for any Fanstory folks that wander over here - that I don't think the site owner is a bad guy. He seems to be genuinely trying to create oppportunities for the writers who participate at Fanstory, and he got hooked by the same misleading PA propaganda that has fooled a lot of other people as well. I hope that no one else gets hooked, too.


Unfortunately, a lot of nice people have gotten hooked by PA's propaganda. Let's just hope that the Fanstory participants are sophisticated enough to see through the hype and don't submit their work to PA in hopes of "getting published."

[aka eraser]

We need to get would-be PA authors to understand that PA isn't the answer to anyone's hopes for being published. PA does not, in any meaningful sense of the term, publish books; it acts as a front-man for a printer.

In exchange for the lion's share of the profits; in exchange for an author's blood, sweat, tears, money, and almost-inevitable loss of self-esteem, PA offers a near-guarantee that something resembling a book will be printed: An overpriced, un-distributed, un-warehoused, unwanted-by-bookstores, non-returnable book chock-full of errors.

PA is a clerk at Kinko's dressed in a suit and trying to pass himself off as a "real" publisher.

[BeckEaston]

Hooray! Well said!

One ex PA two cents worth. :peace

[winniemitzandme]

I thought I was starting a new topic here, but insteand it posted all by its lonesome. Can some move the message that states "Almost go my paperwork" on to this board?

Thanks,
V

[DaveKuzminski]

I believe the only really bad thing that the fanStory.com site operator did was to take PA's word about their credentials instead of doing a thorough Internet search for further information. If he had done so and found only one complaint, that could be discounted as possibly a disgruntled writer. However, he would have found numerous complaints with even just a mediocre search.

Otherwise, I don't see him as a bad guy, so I hope folks will keep that in mind. He's being hoodwinked by PA just as it's done to many authors.

What this should tell us is that we're not getting the word out to enough of the other writing sites.

[James D Macdonald]

Molly -- as you know, I ordered a copy of There Ain't Enough Front Porches from Borders a couple of weeks back.

It came in today. Cost: $30.88 (including tax). I'm saving it and the receipt in case you need it.

[Molly Brent]

That was so very nice of you.

I would very much appreciate having your professional opinion of the story etc and what it needs to improve.

Thanks, I hope you enjoy it.

Molly

[Ed Williams 3]

...was yanked. Will be interesting to take a look back there in 6-8 months and see what the reaction to the Publish America partnership is then....

8o

[James D Macdonald]

I do wonder why a Print on Demand book that the publisher has lost the right to print is available through regular retail channels at all. I wonder if LSI would record a recent printing.

Will Molly get her royalty?

[BeckEaston]

Speaking from experience, nope. Sorry Molly. From what I found out, PA has sold some of our books to booksellers. They will stop selling the product when they run out of inventory. Until then, so sad.

I truly believe that PA still has Molly's as well as my book on their catalog. It might not be on their web site, but for authors, there is absolutely no way for us to prove that PA did not in fact sell those copies earlier. I asked all the booksellers to give me an update of how many of my product they had in inventory. This was per Lynn's advice. They promptly did after I told them they could be liable for selling a product without rights to do so. Booksellers just didn’t want that headache. Well, when they got down to onesies and twosies, all of the sudden, my book became unavailable.

You might try that tactic Molly. In her case, I know she's contacted the booksellers numerous times. That only leads me to believe the aforementioned conclusion. PA still has her book in their catalog for sale. Bad business? I think so!

PA~
Wrong for Authors, Wrong for Americans!
I'm Ms. Easton and I approved this message. :ha

[Whachawant]

Speaking from experience, nope. Sorry Molly. From what I found out, PA has sold some of our books to booksellers. They will stop selling the product when they run out of inventory. Until then, so sad.
-This is ridiculous,...I know this company has no morals but jeez, even some crooks draw the line somewhere!!..-

I wonder if the posting on page 131 about the new tactics Ingram and LSI are implementing has anything to do with continued accessibility to books no longer readily available....?:wha

[winniemitzandme]

to send off to all those authorities listed here.

PA says when a book stops selling, they will inforce article 24 of the contract. Well, don't you think that having two books sold the 2004 is enough to say the book is NOT selling?

I have talked with PA by email, support team of course, and they sent this silly standard message back saying that they will allow me to 1) reedit Death by Bad Magic, or, 2) retitle the book. I shot off an email telling them that I had NO intention of reediting the book since I had it professionally edited before submitting to them, and I had no desire to retitle it.

Now, you ask, why did you submit a second book to them in the first place? Well, back in 2001 I believe, when I had this crook that called herself an literary agent, and not knowing anything about PA, I allowed her to talk me into submitting The Evil Stalker to PA. In the contract I got at that time, they had the second book clause in it, so doing the right thing, I submitted my second finished manuscript to them, that being Death by Bad Magic.

I had said I wasn't going to report anything to the Maryland AG, but darn, why not? I mean, I'm the one being screwed by PA and I want a little something in return.

So, hopefully by this time next week all my paper work and information will be complete so that I may join the others in slapping something in their face, and I hate doing this, as I don't like to fight with anyone, but sometimes it takes a fight. Know what I mean?

I have kept in contact with several newspaper reporters and tv news reporters from that what happened to me and my husband in 2002, even thought about putting a bug in their ear.

I have never allowed what PA has done to stop my writing, am in the process of trying to find a good agent for my next manuscript which I have titled Deadly Encounter. Wish me luck.

Violet

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>when they got down to onesies and twosies, all of the sudden, my book became unavailable.<hr></blockquote>
Hurray! Becca, that is great news. You are so right; these guys do not want to become embroiled in anything smacking of illegalities. They can leave that to the professionals. Face it, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

[aka eraser]

Thanks for moving your post over here Violet. :)

[BeckEaston]

Send ALL PA complaints to:

Office of the Attorney General
Consumer Protection Division-Beth Silverman
200 St. Paul Place
Baltimore, MD 21202

Good luck!

[James D Macdonald]

Send hardcopy letters. Email is too easy to ignore.

Hold on to your original documents; send photocopies of your backup material.

[lindylou45]

"Here is the deal. Our books are not available from Ingram no matter what anyone tells you. This means our distribution is limited to PA, and the online bookstores. However, Amazon has already begun attaching ‘special order’ fees of $1.99 to some PA books. Other online stores like Powell’s Books and Books A Million are pricing our books way above retail to make up the difference. Yes, Ingram will have our Isbns in their computer system, but that is all, for now. On the Lightning Source website (the company that prints the books) they say they are working on a new method of distribution for POD books but it will not be implemented until the first quarter of 2005. They do not explain it well.

"If PA would step in and either do a deal like I Universe did then bookstores could order our books, and authors like me could do fundraisers for charities. The other thing would be to change their status from a POD publisher to a traditional publisher with a return on books."


She had a meeting with a rep from Waldenbooks who told her he would definitely stock her book due to a fundraiser she is holding. When he checked her ISBN numbers he told her he couldn't order them because there was no stock and it would mean backorders - there is a fee to the bookstore to order backorders.

Needless to say, she is quite upset.


:cry

[BeckEaston]

I am so very sorry for her. The problem is that new authors or authors that sign with POD and do NOT understand what they are agreeing to, get really hurt in the end. Ingram's no matter how wonderful they are - is the SOLE distributor for most POD or for that matter books on the market today. This means that if they do not stock or sell PA books, you are very much dead in the water of even selling to family or friends, not to mention readers. It's a sad day for her. She needs to get out of her contract. If they cannot provide the book for retail sale, I think they may be in breech of their contract? Consult an attorney, but she may have grounds. I wish her luck.

|I

[FM St George]

I received my exit papers from PA yesterday, but am leery about signing them - since it seems, from others experiences, that it doesn't make a whit of a difference in the actual book being removed. All it seems to do is slap a gag order on you to talk about it but doesn't get it removed from Amazon or any other site. Molly's experience illustrates that even if you agree to their paperwork you still can't get the book out of the public eye AND you end up losing royalties (not that it's a lot, but it's the principle...)

so... what's a gal to do?

:P

[James D Macdonald]

so... what's a gal to do?

Talk to a lawyer.

Do not sign the reversion agreement until you're happy with it.

[BeckEaston]

I know it's really hard to have that piece of paper in your hand and not send it back signed. Just remember two things. 1. Some of us didn’t have to sign a gag order and it's not standard practice for them to give it to you. 2. The minute you sign that release, PA and the Attorney General's office (Who told me specifically) that any future claims against PA will be regarded as "resolved." If there is one piece of advice that I have can share that I have learned through all this that is take your time, consult a lawyer for your best interests and don't be so quick to take the easy road out of your contract. After all, it was too easy to be picked up by PA and look where that got us!

I sincerely wish you the best of luck in whatever you do.

:snoopy

[DeePower]

Here is my complaint to the Better Business Bureau. Please keep in mind that I filed online using a web form, so there isn’t as much detail as I have included in the complaint to the AG in MD.

Complaint
***********************
On September 2, 2002, I and my co-author, Brian Hill, signed a contract with PublishAmerica to publish our book, Overtime. We signed the contract based on the assurances of PublishAmerica that:

1. PublishAmerica is a traditional publishing company.

2. PublishAmerica is selective in the manuscripts that they accept, and provides editing for their titles.

3. PublishAmerica would provide marketing and publicity support for their books.

4. That PublishAmerica is not a Publish On Demand publisher.

5. That our book would be available and stocked in bookstores nationwide.

In the ensuing months we have found that PublishAmerica has misrepresented their services, and their business model. PublishAmerica is not a traditional publisher. PublishAmerica accepts nearly any manuscript sent to them. PublishAmerica provides only the editing services of a standard word processing software program.

PublishAmerica does not provide marketing and publicity support.
PublishAmerica uses the business model of a Publish On Demand publisher.

PublishAmerica does not attempt to stock their titles in bookstores. PublishAmerica book titles are rarely stocked by book chain stores unless placed there on consignment after being paid for by the author.
******************************************

Typos were in Janet's letter

Janet Morrissey's response
PublishAmerica


October 4, 2004

Dear Ms. Johns,

I am in receipt of your letter of September 29, regarding Dee Powers.

Contrary to what she states, at her request our contract with Ms. Powers is in process of being terminated amicably as of August 17 of this year, over one month before her complaint. Why she would make her complaint after this development, and not mention this to you is a mystery.

Ms. Powers=letter complaint of complaint contains several statements that she knows not to be true. The rest of her statements appear to be general observations that are also not true. Her claims are more in the bizarre category than anything worthy of refute. Refuting these claims is a very simple matter.

1. Actually our business model is traditional. We require nor accept any fees from our authors. Our business model is nearly identical to that of most major publishers. And, like most publishers, the vast majority of our sales are from a small percentage of our titles.

2. Yes, we are selective, and the fact that we have a team of 25 full time text editors working under our roof, at our office, easily refutes her claim.

3. Every publisher differs from book to book as far as the marketing and promotion that they will provide. Our marketing efforts are in line what is done by most major publishers.

4. We are not at all a “publish on demand” or POD publisher. We would have very little in common with any such publisher, vanity publisher, or subsidy publisher. You will find our marketing practices and business model to be closest to that of the largest major publishing houses.

5. Contrary to what she states, we never made any such claim, nor any claim even remotely resembling such a statement. She may be confused because she does not understand how bookstore stocking works in the publishing industry. Please allow us to clarify.

Less than one percent of all authors ever see their books actually stocked by bookstores. For bookstores to stock all books published would mean adding 15 feet of new shelf space every day. Therefore bookstore managers must be selective, so they decide based on what that they think will sell. If they do think it will sell, they will stock it, and vice versa. So, if your book is romance and the store’s shelves are overflowing with romance novels, the odds are they won’t stock it. And, if your book is a history of agriculture in Tupelo County, Mississippi, the bookstore manager in Seattle may feel the same way.

Again, the overall industry reality is that of all newly published titles in America (160,000 per year) less than 1 percent end up being stocked by bookstores, stocked as in sitting on shelves hoping to get sold.

But this year alone, we received and fulfilled bookstore orders for more than 3,700 of our titles, with Barnes and Noble being our number one retail customer. That roughly equals the total number of books that we have released in the past 365 days.

As always, I trust that I have answered your question in full. If you need any further information about any of the above, it will be my pleasure to be of your assistance,

Sincerely, Janet Morrissey

*****************************************

I am filing a rebuttal, but I thought the PA response might be of interest. On the matter of the "amicable" termination, there isn't any. PA hasn't responded to the revised agreement sent by our attorney September 22.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[BeckEaston]

1. Actually our business model is traditional. We require nor accept any fees from our authors. Our business model is nearly identical to that of most major publishers. And, like most publishers, the vast majority of our sales are from a small percentage of our titles.
From what I have learned, PA's claim that they are "traditional" is valid. Unfortunately, only authors (not lawyers) understand what the difference is. Also unfortunately for PA there is a web site that regards this issue. www.sfwa.org/beware/printondemand.html (http://www.sfwa.org/beware/printondemand.html) Also PA has secured their own lies with the publication of their own web site that directs all new authors to their POD company. That site is www.authorsnet.com. They cannot have it both ways. The lawyers need to understand what it means to authors to be connected by misrepresentation to a POD company. Especially in light of recent Ingram developments that they will no longer stock such books.

2. Yes, we are selective, and the fact that we have a team of 25 full time text editors working under our roof, at our office, easily refutes her claim.
If they have 25 full time text editors what does that mean. This is where PA gets lawyers to buy in to their claims. Text editing is NOT the same as promising to "line by line" edit their products. Only a real editor will know the difference. They do not edit spelling, syntax, structure, story content or copy. These are the services that a "traditional" publisher does provide. Therefore refuting both the claim that PA is a traditional publisher and that PA edits their books. The additionally saddened fact is that there are authors who can refute this by direct evidence that not one single item on their manuscript was edited at all whatsoever, text or not.

3. Every publisher differs from book to book as far as the marketing and promotion that they will provide. Our marketing efforts are in line what is done by most major publishers.
This sadly enough is a blatant lie. It pains me to hear that they sell this hogwash. They offer web site marketing, family & Friend contact and nothing more. Authors need only go to the aforementioned web site to fully comprehend the absurdity of this claim.

4. We are not at all a “publish on demand” or POD publisher. We would have very little in common with any such publisher, vanity publisher, or subsidy publisher. You will find our marketing practices and business model to be closest to that of the largest major publishing houses.
Again, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot advertise that Barnes and Noble consider your product a POD product as well as advertise you're a POD company under a different web site directing new authors and then claim to authorities that you are not.

5. Contrary to what she states, we never made any such claim, nor any claim even remotely resembling such a statement. She may be confused because she does not understand how bookstore stocking works in the publishing industry. Please allow us to clarify.
I urge anyone who believes this to contact the Small Press Department of Barnes & Noble. (The nations leading bookseller) and ask them if they have ever corporately stocked a PA book. I know the answer, I've done it. That testimony refutes any claim that booksellers order books based on shelf placement. The way they get away with this is how they word what they say.
But this year alone, we received and fulfilled bookstore orders for more than 3,700 of our titles, with Barnes and Noble being our number one retail customer. That roughly equals the total number of books that we have released in the past 365 days.
Received via online orders, and fulfilled orders through Barnes and Noble. Those orders are NOT in the bookstores. They did not lie with that statement, they just didn’t tell the truth either.

I'm sorry Dee. I have been down this road and it's hard. Just remember that once you are released, your claims will be null and void. You may want to continue your fight with PA and not get released. That's what ended my pursuit as well as many other authors. PA knows what they are doing.

:head

[XThe NavigatorX]

I thought they had 32 text editors. What'd they do? Fire seven of them?

[DaveKuzminski]

Maybe they got sick from the red ink fumes doing 35,000 corrections each day? ;)

[BeckEaston]

That's a good one Dave, :ha I am still laughing...:rofl

[XThe NavigatorX]

There's a new press release on PA's homepage about a new "partnership" with fanstory.com, which appears to be a place like critters where you can get reviews of work in progress, etc.

I wonder if they know what they're getting themselves into. :lol

[CaoPaux]

The natives are getting restless re: no Logo response to the change at Ingram.

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/6274.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6274.htm)

But why should they be concerned, since PA says they aren’t a POD publisher? </sarcasm>

[snarzler]

Not anymore. Thread be gone.

Maybe one of the fired editors was looking at the wrong screen. :rollin


Andrea :peace

[DaveKuzminski]

Doesn't matter. I have a copy already. :thumbs

[ncq13]

The thread appears to have been pulled. Fortunately, I had a chance to chime in before it was yanked.

[BeckEaston]

I find that it's the best thing to do with regard to PA. PRINT everything, becuase one day, that might just not be there. :p

[James D Macdonald]

Time for a line-by-line on Ms. Morrissey's typical Mendacious InfoCenter Twaddle:

<HR>

<BLOCKQUOTE>
October 4, 2004

Dear Ms. Johns,

I am in receipt of your letter of September 29, regarding Dee Powers.

Contrary to what she states, at her request our contract with Ms. Powers is in process of being terminated amicably as of August 17 of this year, over one month before her complaint. Why she would make her complaint after this development, and not mention this to you is a mystery.
</BLOCKQUOTE>

As Ms. Power states, the word "amicably" is a fib. As to why Ms. Power would complain to the BBB more than a month later, it's clear that Ms. Power does not feel that the contract termination has happened at all. No mystery here.



<BLOCKQUOTE>
Ms. Powers=letter complaint of complaint contains several statements that she knows not to be true. The rest of her statements appear to be general observations that are also not true. Her claims are more in the bizarre category than anything worthy of refute. Refuting these claims is a very simple matter.
</BLOCKQUOTE>

Ms. Morrissey makes several claims that she knows are not true. The remainder of her letter includes several statements that are flat lies. Her letter is false, misleading, and deceptive.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
1. Actually our business model is traditional. We require nor accept any fees from our authors. Our business model is nearly identical to that of most major publishers. And, like most publishers, the vast majority of our sales are from a small percentage of our titles.
</BLOCKQUOTE>

The only thing that saves Ms. Morrissey here is that the word "traditional" is not defined. I think she meant "we neither require nor accept any fees from our authors," but her editing skills are on a par with those of other PA editors. True, they do not require authors to pay fees (other than paying for their own copyright registration). However, most of their sales are to the authors themselves. Please provide some solid numbers, Ms. Morrissey. The PA business model is unlike that of most major publishers. Most major trade publishers sell books to the general public. PublishAmerica sells books to its own authors. Yes, most sales by most publishers come from a small number of titles (though the low end of a traditional publisher's sales are numbered in thousands, not in single digits). Only a small percentage of PA authors have the financial resources to buy thousands of their own titles. Tell me, Ms. Morrissey -- of the ten authors featured in PA's September ad in the New York Times Book Review, how many were sold directly to the authors themselves?

There is no need to require authors to buy their own books when it's an observable fact that authors will buy their own books, in predictable numbers.

<Blockquote>
2. Yes, we are selective, and the fact that we have a team of 25 full time text editors working under our roof, at our office, easily refutes her claim.</BLOCKQUOTE>

They are so selective that they accepted a book that consisted of the same 30 pages copied over and over again?


In their letter (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=209.t opic&start=641&stop=660) soliciting authors to buy their own books last June, PA claimed "Each week we release an average 80 new titles to the industry..."

PublishAmerica has 53 titles on their "This week's new releases" (http://www.publishamerica.com/weeklybooks.htm) page as I type these words. Ms. Morrissey's claim is easily refuted. The fact that she claims 25 editors is proof that PublishAmerica does not edit: There quite literally aren't enough hours in a week for 25 individuals to edit 53 books, far less 80.

More: I suspect that Ms. Morrissey is lying about the number of "editors ... under one roof." I wonder if the BBB sent a person to the PA offices on a surprise visit how many "editors" they would find physically in the office.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
3. Every publisher differs from book to book as far as the marketing and promotion that they will provide. Our marketing efforts are in line what is done by most major publishers.
</BLOCKQUOTE>

Most major trade publishers field a sales force, publish a catalog, send copies of their books with their press releases, take out advertisements in trade publications, and send review copies to major venues well in advance of publication. PublishAmerica does none of these things.


<BLOCKQUOTE>
4. We are not at all a “publish on demand” or POD publisher. We would have very little in common with any such publisher, vanity publisher, or subsidy publisher. You will find our marketing practices and business model to be closest to that of the largest major publishing houses.
</BLOCKQUOTE>

Alas, Ms. Morrissey needs to read the PublishAmerica website and the PublishAmerica contract (activities that PA constantly recommends to their authors who have complaints).

"Not at all a 'publish on demand' or POD publisher"?

Because they took full advantage of the latest printing technology before anybody else did, the company can afford to sell all copies of a book on a non-returnable basis. Consequently, no book is ever wasted now that each copy can be printed in accordance with real demand. -- About Us (http://www.publishamerica.com/aboutus.htm)


3. The Publisher agrees to cause all copies of the said literary work to be printed as the market
demands.... -- PublishAmerica's Contract (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=209.t opic&start=1141&stop=1160)

A Vice President at Barnes and Noble wrote us a letter recently, saying, "We very much believe in print-on-demand (POD) technology as a cost-effective tool available for publishers to extend the range of their title offerings to Barnes & Noble... We believe that POD represents an opportunity to increase the range of titles we offer... We will continue to stock every title that you publish, which enables us to rapidly replenish our stores..." and

Not only does Barnes and Noble have no policy against stocking print on demand books, Barnes and Noble actually runs their own print on demand facility! And, in that facility, they actually print PublishAmerica books. -- PA's standard email response to disgruntled authors

As far as having "very little in common" with vanity and subsidy publishers, PublishAmerica has a great deal in common with them. The vanity/subsidy publishing model is one where the books, often over-priced, are sold to the authors themselves. PA's overpriced books are primarily sold to the authors themselves.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
5. Contrary to what she states, we never made any such claim, nor any claim even remotely resembling such a statement. She may be confused because she does not understand how bookstore stocking works in the publishing industry. Please allow us to clarify.
</BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, claims which more-than-remotely resemble such statements abound on the PA website. As Dee Power documented (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=209.t opic&start=2421&stop=2440):

<BLOCKQUOTE>
www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm
Hundreds of bookstores across the nation stock our books.

www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm
The majority of our books that are sold retail are sold in physical brick and mortar bookstores. Tens of thousands of people and hundreds of our authors across the nation have purchased PublishAmerica books from physical brick and mortar bookstores.

Now PublishAmerica can make your next book available in all bookstores nationwide.

All books are available through most major bookstores, online, and through phone order.

www.publishamerica.com/aboutus.htm
….full availability to all bookstores, through the best possible distribution channels (Ingram, Baker&Taylor, etc.)

</BLOCKQUOTE>She means to say "the cheapest possible distribution channels." In addition, Ingram has a) stopped stocking POD books, and b) stopped stocking PublishAmerica books. What does this tell you about whether PA is a POD publisher?<BLOCKQUOTE>

www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm
There are book signings with PublishAmerica authors almost every day in bookstores all over the fruited plain.

www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm
PublishAmerica's books are featured for sale in bookstores across North America (and Canada), this also includes (but is not limited to) larger chain retailers as Borders, Barnes & Noble, Waldenbooks, Wal-Mart, etc...</BLOCKQUOTE>


Next claim:

<BLOCKQUOTE>
Less than one percent of all authors ever see their books actually stocked by bookstores.</BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to see PA document this. Aside from books not intended for bookstore sales (law books, text books, reference books, atlases, etc.) and vanity published books (PublishAmerica and others), most books published by commercial trade publishers (which PublishAmerica pretends to be) are stocked by bookstores. The only way the "one percent" claim could possibly be true is if PA counts among "all authors" everyone who ever typed a manuscript, even if it was never accepted for publication.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
For bookstores to stock all books published would mean adding 15 feet of new shelf space every day. </BLOCKQUOTE>

They clear that shelf space by selling 15 feet of books per day, and/or by stripping or returning books that failed to sell. The "all books published" is also deliberately misleading, as "all books published" are not intended for bookstore sales. (E.g. encyclopedias.)



<BLOCKQUOTE>Therefore bookstore managers must be selective, so they decide based on what that they think will sell. If they do think it will sell, they will stock it, and vice versa. So, if your book is romance and the store’s shelves are overflowing with romance novels, the odds are they won’t stock it.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Ms. Morrissey reveals her utter ignorance of commercial bookselling. If your bookstore is moving enough romance titles that their "shelves are overflowing," they'll be eager to add another romance title. For chain bookstores, which represent a large percentage of books sold in America, the individual bookstore manager isn't the person who makes the decisions on what to stock (although the manager does have some discretion). Those decisions are made by the chain's buyers. Other items that Ms. Morrissey fails to mention are the non-returnability issue, the non-standard discount through distributors, and the excessive cover prices of PublishAmerica books, all of which make it less likely that any bookstore will stock any PublishAmerica book than they would even a book that the author had printed and bound at his local Kinkos.


<BLOCKQUOTE>
And, if your book is a history of agriculture in Tupelo County, Mississippi, the bookstore manager in Seattle may feel the same way.</BLOCKQUOTE>

More standard verbiage taken directly from PA's form letter to disgruntled authors. Tell us about the novels that PA publishes, eh? How about the general interest books that comprise most of PA's offerings -- the mysteries, the fantasies, the how-tos and the histories -- books that any bookstore across the country stocks by the hundreds. How come PA authors can't get those stocked in doors-and-windows bookstores either? Would Ms. Morrissey care to name any PA title that is stocked nationally by any chain?

<BLOCKQUOTE>
Again, the overall industry reality is that of all newly published titles in America (160,000 per year) less than 1 percent end up being stocked by bookstores, stocked as in sitting on shelves hoping to get sold.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Ms. Morrissey is lying. Can she back this up with numbers? Can she give her sources?


<BLOCKQUOTE>
But this year alone, we received and fulfilled bookstore orders for more than 3,700 of our titles, with Barnes and Noble being our number one retail customer. That roughly equals the total number of books that we have released in the past 365 days.</Blockquote>

Shady PA weasel-wording again. You're talking to the BBB, Janet, not some unhappy author in downtown Paducah. What you've just said is that you've gotten one order per book. Nor are those books stocked. They were special ordered. Isn't it true that, unlike legitimate publishers, those sales came primarily from the author's family and friends? How many copies per title, Janet? Now's the time to show your hand.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
As always, I trust that I have answered your question in full. If you need any further information about any of the above, it will be my pleasure to be of your assistance,
</BLOCKQUOTE>

As always? You've gotten complaints before? Lots of complaints? But no, you haven't answered the questions at all, let alone in full. In fact, you sat there and straight-facedly lied to the BBB. Shame on you, Janet Morrissey.



<BLOCKQUOTE>Sincerely, Janet Morrissey</BLOCKQUOTE>

Sincerity would be a refreshing change. Someone with subpoena power should ask Ms. Morrissey some searching questions.

[JohannaJ7]

This is kind of heartbreaking: www.publishamerica.com/cg.../11022.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11022.htm)

[BeckEaston]

It really is. Thanks for sharing. Helps us understand more how people can be so naive.

:hug

[Arden19]

I just have to ask it, are all authors rolling in the money? To read some of the author blogs that I do, you wouldn't think it. They're "big time" authors too. I am being sarcastic. I know the answer to that question. I know I'll never be "rich" from any writing I may do.

As for me, I'm not waiting for anything to roll in from PA. I'd like to get a contract cancellation, but that's the only thing I want from them. I swear, the more I read about them, the more fed up I get.

[ncq13]

( Excerpt from the thread: www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/6286.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6286.htm) )


Infocenter
Administrator
10/14/2004
15:25:17

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp RE: Ingrams


Message:
Aahh, urban legends...

Some ignorant idiot somewhere on the internet invented a problem, other idiots gave the rumor legs, and lo and behold, "Ingram is going to refuse to fulfill orders".

What nonsense.

Here is what re
ally happened. Three (3!) years ago PublishAmerica sat down with printer Lightning Source, an Ingram daughter. We requested a different stocking system, such that bookstores would find in their computer that this or that PublishAmerica title was available for immediate ordering. Not just for one copy, or five, but for an unlimited number. Lightning Source's answer: "Yep, you're not the only one complaining. We will do something about it."

The solution: "virtual stock".

Ingram's computer system would show an unlimited availability of books that are printed by their daughter. A bookstore would go online, place an order, the book would be printed within 24 hours, and ship no later than the next day. Exactly as fast or even faster than an already printed book that must be picked from one of Ingram's many miles of shelves.

It would be useful for some of you to see how this shelf thing works at Ingram. Millions of books are sitting on mile after mile of shelves, in huge warehouses. Through that maze of shelf walls, order fulfillers ride on tricycles with a basket, from shelf to shelf, to gather books that are ordered to ship to this or that bookstore. For Ingram, it's not necessarily a logistical nightmare, but it's not exactly ideal logistics either. Far from that.

That's why they just love this on-demand printing. Ingram more or less invented it. It saves a wholesaler tons of man hours, and even more shelf space.

But no solution comes without problems. In this case, the problem was one of computer system incompatibility. It turned out that Lightning Source's, and PublishAmerica's, largest customer Barnes and Noble was still working with a system that would not read the unlimited availability. All they would see was, "not in stock, must backorder". The solution would not work until this incompatibility was worked out. In fact, PublishAmerica was told a year ago that, yes, we could already get an "unlimited availability" designation for our titles if we insisted, but we would pretty much lose a considerable volume of business from Barnes and Noble. This, of course, we did not want.

We are now being told that the issue has been solved, and that all of your books will soon show an unlimited availability whenever your local bookstore goes online to check its status. No matter how many copies the store wants, any and all orders can and will be fulfilled the same day.

Finally, after years of pressing and pushing, PublishAmerica's urgent request is on the verge of being honored.

"On the verge", because contrary to what the grapevine is whispering, it's going to be another half year or so until Ingram can fully implement the new system. That's the bad news. The good news is that your books will soon ship to bookstores faster than they ever have, in many cases also faster than physically stocked books.

That's all there is to the story, and it's all good news. In the meantime and until then, nothing is changing. Your books remain available for immediate ordering as they always have. That includes Rita's three titles, all of which are physically stocked as we speak, and only one of which is awaiting replenishing.

And now back to whatever your business at hand is, everybody.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Some ignorant idiot somewhere on the internet invented a problem, other idiots gave the rumor legs, and lo and behold, "Ingram is going to refuse to fulfill orders".<hr></blockquote>
Umm...did they call one of their own authors an ignorant idiot? Wow. If I did that, we'd be out of business and rightly so. I do hope I misinterpreted that comment.

[Sher2]

Aahh, urban legends...

Some ignorant idiot somewhere on the internet invented a problem, other idiots gave the rumor legs, and lo and behold, "Ingram is going to refuse to fulfill orders".

What nonsense.

Cripes! Some of these responses from The Logo are purely entertaining. "Some ignorant idiot somewhere on the Internet invented a problem?" Do tell! We've all read the nature of the problem straight from the horse's mouth. As far as I can tell, there's nothing "invented" about the problem. It's real. It exists. It must be dealt with, preferably by some means other than sticking one's head in the sand and hoping it'll go away. Real answers and real solutions are necessary, not PA spin and Logo Voodoo.

[vstrauss]

Basically, the Logo has regurgitated Lightning Source's own explanation of the process of switching to its new stocking system--the bottom line of which is that it will be 6 months or so before the new system kicks in--and presented it as the result of PA's own advocacy efforts.

That PublishAmerica. Such an industry mover and shaker! When PA speaks, Lightning Source listens. And of course, PA is always thinking of its authors!

Actually, it was unkind of the Logo to spin...I mean speak...today. I'm still nauseated from last night's presidential debate.

- Victoria

[ncq13]

"not PA spin and Logo Voodoo."
Voodoo actually works, Logo spin is just hot air.;)

[James D Macdonald]

I believe the "ignorant idiot" they're talking about is Dan Poynter, of whom they said on <a href="http://www.authorsmarket.net/youreyes.htm" target="_new">authorsmarket.net</a>, "There are a few serious experts in authorland, there's no doubt about that. Christian author advocate Sally Stuart is one of them. Dan Poynter of Para Publishing is another."

[KW]

Its mission is to protect book writers from being misled by false industry promises, and from spending money on having their work published, at any time in their career.

I find this part of authorsmarket pretty damn funny. PA is nothing but false industry promises and fake info.

Kevin

[Sher2]

Voodoo actually works,

I know! I'm thinking of getting some long pins and a little doll and naming it ... well, you get my drift. LOL. Let The Logo put that in its pipe and spin it.

[ncq13]

"I know! I'm thinking of getting some long pins and a little doll and naming it ... well, you get my drift. LOL. Let The Logo put that in its pipe and spin it."
:rofl
I'm rather proud of us for maintaining our humor throughout all of these wicked trials!

[KW]

I'm rather proud of us for maintaining our humor throughout all of these wicked trials!

Give me a few more weeks and I will post a story that will have you all :rofl . It is laughable only because it is such a pathetic :cry on PA's part. They done something they shouldn't have.

Kevin

[Lisamaliga]

How many of the past and present PublishAmerica authors were lured in by their patriotic looking web site? Their slogan about how honest they were – We Treat Our Authors the Old Fashioned Way – We Pay Them. The pages and pages worth of testimonials. Thousands of HAPPY authors. Celebrity endorsements by The Pope, Laura Bush, Marie Osmond and other movie and TV luminaries of years gone by. PA has been touting the fact that ex M*A*S*H* actor Jamie Farr has been taking his wife’s book to a taping of The Hollywood Squares for the past year.

What gets PA so highly ranked in the search engines? Their name for one. Those popular keywords were well chosen for staying power on search engines and directories for very obvious reasons. If you are looking for proof that they’re emphasizing their ‘tradition’ have a peek at the description that those tireless spider robots deal with whenever they visit that PA site: "META name="description" content="PublishAmerica, Inc., a traditional publisher, accepting and publishing manuscripts and books at NO CHARGE to the author. Royalties paid to writers, books sold in stores. Manuscript submissions by mail and online" "

Yep, they say they’re traditional all right. They further emphasize it by telling the author they’re trying to hook into their game that they don’t charge them – even resorting to using all capital letters. Oh yeah, those royalties, they’re present, as are the ‘books sold in stores’ to further reel writers in.

Keywords – those carefully chosen words and terms to get you listed high in search engines and reap the benefits of lots of sales…here they are, looking good. Looking legit. But what’s this; they mention xlibris, a known print on demand publisher. Same with iUniverse. And do we see the term “print on demand” listed several times in variations?

And doesn’t the term self publish/self publishing occur about three different times? Could that be a clue as to what PA is all about?

"META name="keywords" content="writers, publishers, agents, literary agents, authors, author, writer, publisher, publishing, writing, xlibris, publishing house, publishing company, publishing companies, royalties, print?on?demand, print on demand, print?on?demand publishing, print on demand publishing, PublishAmerica, Publish America, publishamerica, publish america, AmErica House, america house, America House, publish America, print, printing, book, books, book publishing, publishing service, self-publish, self-publishing, iUniverse, iuniverse, xlibris, self publishing, free publishing, cheap publishing, manuscript, manuscript submission, royalty publisher, royalty publishing, ebooks, on-demand publishing, small press, online publishing, publishing online, book publisher, book publishers, book printing, publishing resource, writer resource, author resource, writers community, authors community, publishing professional, traditional publisher, traditional publishing, writing talent, creative talent, unpublished author, un-published author, unpublished writer, un-published writer, publishing contract" "

Oddly enough the term traditional isn’t emphasized in the keywords section at all. It appears albeit at the bottom of the list. So far down that many search engines won’t ever see or care to index it.

note - couldn't add meta tags to this post!
To read more about PA, please visit:
<a href="http://www.lisamaliga.com/epublishing3.htm" target="_new">http://www.lisamaliga.com/epublishing3.htm</a>

[Whachawant]

The only 'ignorant idiot' they're referring to is themselves...
Just because they now say a plan to make their books readily available is in the works,... does not suggest that it WILL work. 'VIRTUAL STOCK'??? Well now,... isn't that just what P.A. is all about. Lies? To top it off their books still won't be available to certain stores, and when the repercussions of this new mistake takes hold, the authors (old or new) will be back asking the same questions already posted on this and many other threads.

From the link posted by ncq13
(This gentleman posts a good question)
What PA (Management) and Ingrams (Management) and Lightning Source (Management) agree to is significant in both the immediate and long term implications for our books, but all that doesn't seem to filter down to the individual store managers, assistant managers, district managers and sales clerks. These are the people we have to deal with and there in lies the problem we seem to be finding--where all the resistance is encountered. What is the Management plan agreed to that will remedy that situation and remedy it permanently? All the boardroom agreements in the world mean little to us and our book sales if the agreements don't get down to worker level.

So no matter how much the top brass agrees that this new concept is beneficial to the company and its authors, there is still something preventing each store from stocking P.A. books.

Of course then there is this little gem
I hope that everything is going to be all right. I had a bad experience with another publisher, I sure don't want another one.

jeez, I'd like to know what publisher this person went with that is worse than the current criminal.

[HapiSofi]

Concerning Ingram's recent policy change, which will have disastrous effects on PublishAmerica's authors, PA mendaciously said:Here is what really happened. Three (3!) years ago PublishAmerica sat down with printer Lightning Source, an Ingram daughter. We requested a different stocking system, such that bookstores would find in their computer that this or that PublishAmerica title was available for immediate ordering. Not just for one copy, or five, but for an unlimited number. Lightning Source's answer: "Yep, you're not the only one complaining. We will do something about it."Ho yus, Lightning Source sat down for a powwow with PublishAmerica. If Lightning Source had a thimble's worth of respect for PA, which it doesn't, PA wouldn't have such long waits to get their orders filled. PA's relationship with Lightning Source is basically that of a supplicant: LSI is utterly essential to PA's business, but if PA disappeared tomorrow, LSI would still have plenty of other customers.

LSI's handling this changeover the way it is precisely because PublishAmerica and other vanitypods don't swing any weight. PA authors are going to have a five-month gap in their distribution. Ingram/LSI knows there's nothing those houses and authors can do about it. They don't matter, and Ingram/LSI doesn't care.

Say farewell to any sales momentum PA authors may have managed to build up. Say farewell to any books whose initial sales period overlaps the changeover. They're all scrod, and there's not a thing they can do about it.

[Sher2]

They done something they shouldn't have.

Again?! Can't wait to see what great act of noblesse oblige they've performed now.:smack

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Say farewell to any sales momentum PA authors have managed to build up.<hr></blockquote>
Even though my heart goes out to those 9.000 "happy" authors, I'm secretly thrilled for the huge delay. Since successfully getting the rights to my book back, they refuse to take my book down off their site and that of the online stores. I guess their lawyer needs to go back to law school and learn about the law. At least no one will be able to buy my book. Sheesh, sounds like an odd thing to say, doesn't it?

And no, they haven't heard the last of my wonderful attorney. The fun is only beginning.

[Whachawant]

Say farewell to any sales momentum PA authors have managed to build up.
---Yep ...2 book sales a month. Those who smoke will have to find another way to support their habit---

[DaveKuzminski]

I believe the implosion I warned about is now taking place. It won't be fast, but it will be painful.

And if I'm wrong about it starting now, it's no big deal since it's rather a bit like trying to predict earthquakes. We know that they're going to happen and where. It's just the when that's difficult to pin down.

[aka eraser]

Seems to me there's one weapon in the fight against Publish America that hasn't been used yet.

Complaints to the BBS, the State Attorney, the IRS all take time. Court cases can drag on for years and years.

Does anyone among our collective not know a good investigative reporter working for at least a semi-major daily?

I have a nodding acquaintance with one of the best in Canada but I think this is primarily of interest to a US paper. I doubt she could sell it to her editor without a strong Canuck angle.

Kevin's 30+30+30+30 etc. story itself, when contrasted with the Logo's lies should be enough to make a good reporter drool. Add the other stories he/she could glean from our threads alone and I see a heck of a lid-busting story.

Publish America (I think we should use their full name more - better shot at hitting the first page of search engines) built their house of lies with words. Words wielded by the right hand, in the right forum, could bring them down.

[KW]

I doubt she could sell it to her editor without a strong Canuck angle.

There is one Frank. PA has a lot of Canadian writers they are taking advantage of.

Kevin

[HapiSofi]

Assume PA has 25 editorial employees. They've made that claim. They also once claimed 32 of them, but for now we'll go with 25.

Assume a 40-hour work week. Assume PA publishes 400 titles a month, which is pretty much what they do.

Twenty-five editorial employees, working full time, gives you 4,000 editorial work hours per month. That's ten hours per book.

Ten hours is not enough time to edit a book.

Furthermore, we've never heard of PA hiring employees purely as text processors; yet there's a fair amount of text processing that has to happen in order for an author's electronic file to be turned into formatted book pages.

First, you have to clean up the text: take out the double spaces, turn the double hyphens into proper em-dashes, make single and double quotes into their proper left-and-right versions, regularize whateverthehell the author's done with paragraph indents, and look out for one or two dozen other little problems of that caliber.

Second, you have to format the book. Chapter breaks have to actually break, with chapter sinks and formatted chapter heads. There has to be frontmatter: half-title, panel, title, copyright pages, in their proper format and order. You have to put running heads on the pages, usually title on the recto and author on the verso. Does PA handle excerpts as excerpts, footnotes as footnotes, et cetera? If so, those have to be seen to as well.

I can't imagine that PA is paying people to do more than one pass on a manuscript; and, as I mentioned earlier, we've never heard of them hiring people just to process and format text. I believe that the job done by the people they call editors is actually electronic manuscript cleanup, interior text formatting, frontmatter creation, and maybe a single-pass spellchecking. Ten hours per book would be just about what it takes to do a middlin' perfunctory version of the tasks I've just outlined.

If PA has the 32 editorial employees they claimed on one occasion, the time available per book comes out to 12 hours 48 minutes -- which is still not enough time to edit a book, and no great amount of time to clean up and format an electronic manuscript.

Why the foregoing is demonstrably overgenerous: Some of PA's available editorial hours have to be going into their perfunctory cover copy and press releases.

People who've looked into the question of whether PA edits, as they promise and claim, have in my opinion been distracted by the question of whether PA edits well. I think it's clear that they don't edit at all.

[Sher2]

People who've looked into the question of whether PA edits, as they promise and claim, have in my opinion been distracted by the question of whether PA edits well. I think it's clear that they don't edit at all.


I can attest to that. I recently got proofs, and it was clear that the only editing done was to run it through a spell-checker. On some words, while the spelling was correct, they removed, for example, capitalization of proper nouns. They had a great deal of trouble with the concept of hyphens versus dashes. Several indents and hard returns were off. On one 6-letter word, they inexplicably left out the second letter, making the word appear as x xxxx. It wasn't just a typo on their part; they did it six times. It must have been a word their spell-checker didn't recognize.

Within days of sending in my list of corrections, I was sent the second set of proofs -- at 10:30 at night. They shaved five and a half hours off the 48-hour response time, too. Some of the corrections had been made, others had not. I sent in a second list of corrections, but it remains to be seen whether they will be implemented.

So help me God, I will never sign another contract before first researching the publisher to the ends of the earth.

[Whachawant]

Y'know there is software that also does grammar corrections or at least suggested changes. I wonder,...when a MS is submitted to P.A., the so called editor, runs it through a scanner with OCR technology and then runs a spell/grammar check.
Although this software is nice to have it still requires the human touch. I'm not defending P.A. but, you all might want to be ready for that response.
Perhaps those missing 7 people were replaced by Pentium I technical dinosaurs, with second rate applications. Lord knows you don't have to pay a computer an hourly wage.:bang

[CaoPaux]

There should be more "bestsellers" in the NYT this weekend, yes?

[HapiSofi]

Automated grammar-checkers are an interesting scientifictional idea. It could be that when sophisticated AIs become a commonly available resource, we'll actually start seeing some. But until then? No. All the current generation can do is spot instances of of repeated words, and occasionally catch simple disagreements of number in simple declarative sentences. Along the way, they flag a vast number of errors that aren't, and miss errors any literate Anglophone would catch.

In answer to your specific question, no, I don't imagine PA is running a grammar checker on its manuscripts, because doing so would eat up a vast amount of paid employee time while doing no good at all. If PA tried to argue in court that running a grammar checker constituted editing, there'd be several fruitful responses one could make. One would be to bring in an endless string of text-processing professionals, all of whom would explain that, basically, grammar checkers don't. Another response would be to point out the numerous grammatical errors left standing in PA's books. But the fun response would be to take an unexceptionable piece of text and demonstrate how many of its sentences were flagged as wrong by a grammar checker, and then take a semi-literate piece of text and demonstrate how many errors the software missed.

I stopped believing in grammar checkers the first time I saw a computer magazine do a gangup review of various grammar-checking software packages. They had one of those little charts showing which programs had which features. Every one of the grammar checkers had a checkmark for "flags split infinitives", and another for "flags terminal prepositions". Trouble is, neither of those are grammatical errors in English. When you see something like that, you know the design problems go all the way down.

Grammar checkers might work better in languages which have more regular syntax, and inflections and/or declensions that indicate a word's function, and which don't have the English lanaguage's habit of casually transferring words from one part of speech to another. Our inflections are few and irregular. Sometimes they're misleading: farthing is not a verb, friendly is an adjective, and scissors and trousers are singular nouns. The English subjunctive is appropriate or inappropriate depending on whether the statement is conditional or hypothetical, and therefore can't be judged by any computer that can't parse natural speech.

And so forth and so on, with many more examples. A grammar checker is best thought of as a piece of software that by definition was designed by someone who doesn't know enough about English to understand that grammar checkers don't work. Every writer I know turns them off first thing when they reinstall their word processor.

[BeckEaston]

When new authors agree to sign with PA they are told up front that they must provide an "edited" manuscript to the best of their capabilities. Authors should NEVER edit their own product. But then again, that's just the opinion of actual industry professionals. To get back to the aforementioned statement, authors are given the manuscript back to approve after "changes have been made." Those changes are importation into PageMaker and a small macro that tells the program to indent the first paragraph. Then it is sent back to the author for corrections. (What their editors do or get paid for is beyond comprehension!) In my case, they did nothing and when the manuscript was imported, it eliminated the proper indenting, words, grammar structure. When I complained about this and tried to hault the production to get it right (therefore benefiting both PA and myself) at a cost to me personally, (that option is in the contract) I was denied. The following is a response from Claudia who works at PA about the subject of my manuscript not being "edited" properly. Afterward, because I complained, I was banned from their message boards, and removed from all company notifications. They even hung the phone up on me.

----- Original Message -----

First, I can assure you changes were already made to your MS. Second, if you wish to redo the Word document I can only give you until Thursday to have it to me. The corrections I am addressing are changes to the text of the sentence or paragraph. I agree to do the puctuation, spelling or grammar. Please let me know today what you wish to do. Again, I remind you to read the letter that accommpanied your PDF file, it does outline what is involved with making corrections to your file. The changes that you want now should have been done by you before submission.
Claudia

P.S. Notice her spelling errors? This is HER JOB! >:

But alas, now I am free of the corruption! :clap

[Molly Brent]

My opinion is that each case is different. All editors are not educated equally.

In my case a spell check/ grammar etc was NOT used at all and I can prove it. I was told that they have a department to do that before the editor gets it.

My "editor" was not a bad person. She was not capable of doing something she was never trained to do. She was not smart enough to do it. Most of what she touched she messed up. Even if she had not been short on time, she could not have done it.

She was not angry or insulting, just dumb. "We all needs help sometimes" It's hard to be angry with someone incapable of understanding.

If we ever go to court, it would be a safe bet to use her as an example and see if she could pass a 5th grade English test. She couldn't. I have her name.

Her e mails are on my other computer. My nephew was here with me when this was happening (he is a good writer, but a surgeon by profession) and the editor's e mails were so bad, he was laughing, thinking it had to be some kind of joke they were playing on me. He couldn't belive it was for real.

ON the contract issue someone asked about earlier.....my advice would be not to sign a termination agreement unless they removed the book from the online book stores first...otherwise they will continue to sell your book and not pay you. I am not interested in the $1.79 but I have done everything and my book is still being sold. My book has been out for one year this month. I have received one check for $35. The second royalty check never came at all. My contract was cancelled in May.

Since my contract has been cancelled, I have moved from the 3000 range on Amazon's (PA list) to 168.
I moved into the 1500 range and now back to 914 range. It is hard to keep up since it moves up and down frequently.

I was told the other day that I could order as many as I wanted but anything over 5, there would be a slight delay so they could order directly from the publisher. I sent that response and the "in print" to the attorney general.

Amazon has Market Place and will continue to sell "used" books and it is impossible to get it removed.

I wrote to the governor of MD about our inability to get any agency in MD to take our complaints. I did hear from him.

I encourage everyone to complain. It will make a difference.

Molly

[priceless1]

I'm free of the clutches of a certain publisher whose name graces this board quite often. This is a real personal victory, as each of our books deserve the very best that publishing has to offer. Our little company started out of that need and it feels great to treat our authors the way I wished I'd been treated.

I've been libeled by this company, had my home town blasted about their boards to the point where it truly frightened me, had lies spread about our company, and treated with arrogant disdain. If I tried this with any of our authors we'd be out of business, and rightly so.

Since they continue to advertise and sell my book on their website and all the online stores, I'm assuming their attorney needs to go back to law school to understand the law a bit more clearly. I'm very fortunate to have the very talented and well connected services of a fine attorney. Upon completion of this distasteful event, I have no doubt they will rue the day they ever heard the name C.E. Petit, Esq.

To those who have been so kind and supportive of me during last March's board fun, I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

For those who feel you have no hope fighting the 'big guy', rest assured that you do. There are good people and attorneys who know an awful lot about this company and are in very strong positions to offer help and success.

If you feel your work is worth it, don't give up the dream.

Many thanks, everyone.

[ncq13]

I just sent off my request to terminate my PA contract. I'm using the Ingrams issue, the blatant lie on the FAQs page about PA being a "traditional publisher," and the refusal for local bookstores to stock non-returnable PA books as grounds. Wish me luck.

[vstrauss]

Ah, another chance for them to fire off their "don't take that tone with us" letter.

- Victoria

[BeckEaston]

You heard from the AG? Who? It's good to see you again. How's the health? Have you submitted to other publishers? Yours is a great story...it deserves its day.

Luck to anyone who isn't at all happy, and does something about it. Good For you! :thumbs

[James D Macdonald]

When new authors agree to sign with PA they are told up front that they must provide an "edited" manuscript to the best of their capabilities.

Can anyone confirm or deny that the extent of PA "editing" is sending back the PDF file together with a one-page list of common English errors with instructions to the author to find and correct them?

----------------

I believe the NYT Book Review with the next ad will be on Sunday the 24th, not this Sunday -- the deadline for completed copy for this Sunday's edition was on 30 September.

-----------------

Molly, like I said, I got a copy of your book this last week (for $30.88!). I have the dated cash register receipt. If you need it to prove that PA is printing books that they don't have the right to print -- I'm right here.

-----------------

Everyone -- keep fighting, and keep smiling. PublishAmerica is not what traditional publishing is like. Have faith in yourself, and in your craft. Work on your skills.

-----------------

If only 1% of authors see their books shelved in bookstores, I have to be the luckiest SOB on the face of the earth. Around thirty novels, around thirty short stories in anthologies, and every stinkin' one of them has wound up on bookstore shelves without my lifting a finger to make it happen.

------------------

Hey, ProandCon, you still around? Did you have a chance to review my latest? (What's yours? I'll do a review for you, too.)

[CaoPaux]

Sadly appropriate:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/6268.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6268.htm)
-----
hg
10/12/2004
21:30:36

Message:

"It's been a "trip"!

The "author copies" arrived today. Proof reading revealed "a small hitch"...I've grown accustomed to this, lol. Upon completion of its remedy, the pre-sold and complimentary "signed copies" order will be submitted (Mrs. Laura Bush, Rhonda Vincent, Rosanne Cash, Linda Vester and PA authors...you know who you are..."It won't be long!")

You can quote me on the following:

Publish America takes financial risks in order to help first-time authors share their literary works. They do so without demanding "thousands of dollars" as do many other publishers. For this PA justifiably deserves much recognition.

Is PA perfect in its methods? Is life perfect? Both may at times cause stress and confusion but both are "more than worth the experience" should you be fortunate enough to "encounter" either...I recommend "both" very highly!

Live your life "and" seek Publish America for giving "life" to your literary works!

Within The Rooms Of A Heart: A journey of love in poetry and prose, Harold D. Geesaman.
ISBN: 1-4137-3920-2 hometown.aol.com/poetofshaddows (http://hometown.aol.com/poetofshaddows)

-----
whitewolfzty
10/12/2004
22:23:31

Message:
Harold,
Congratulations, and I wish you great sales. Your statement is very eloquently written and direct. PA has, indeed, given many new authors (myself included) a unique experience.
Thanks for reminding us just how much we should show our appreciation to PublishAmerica and the staff that support us in our literary endeavors.
KenC.
Dying to Believe

-----
hg
10/12/2004
22:51:26

Message:

I thank you, Ken ...

-----
hg
10/15/2004
13:30:11

Message:

In case you're wondering what the "hitches" specifically were ... two pages missing page numbers and a line in which "liken" became "like" ... and how they were handled (without further commentary).

Response to my proof corrections email:

10/14/04
Dear Mr. Geesaman,
We are in receipt of your request for further revisions to your book in print. After a review of your requested revisions, we have elected not to make them at this time. They do not significantly impact your book's overall existing quality or marketability.


Sincerely,
Sarah Becker
Text Production Manager

My response:

Sarah ...

I tend to agree with your decision ...
it also makes sense to wait and see if demand is such to warrant the changes ...

-----
:shrug

[BeckEaston]

Can anyone confirm or deny that the extent of PA "editing" is sending back the PDF file together with a one-page list of common English errors with instructions to the author to find and correct them?

Yes, I can confirm that the extent of PA editing is sending a PDF file back to the author. However, I cannot confirm that PA sends a list of corrections to be made. The author is told it is their responsibility to know where they are and make those corrections, not the editing department. This I can prove.

[KW]

PA has, indeed, given many new authors (myself included) a unique experience.

Yeah PA gives new authors a unique experience.....if it is good or bad is in the eyes of the author though. I know what my experience has been like.

Kevin

[Molly Brent]

Healthwise, I am up to 16 minutes on the bike this week and going to 20 next week, plus my other exercises have increased. My legs are getting stronger daily.

I haven't gotten brave enough for the treadmill yet but plan to start soon. The doc gave orders not make me do it until I was ready.

No wheelchair in a week now at all. Yesterday I walked from the parking lot and went to the 3rd floor...My first time by myself. I can even drive myself to rehab now.

For people who don't know my situation, they can't tell anything is wrong.

My hearing has been restored to 85% and they consider it one of the few total success stories.

I am getting away from some of the docs and it has been only been 5 months since the stroke.

In the writing department, I have lost all interest. I no longer care about my book. To me this is one of the sadest things that PA does to authors. I will be 67 in a few weeks so it's not that bad for me, but it is so heartbreaking to hear young ones give up.

Becca, I will e mail you about all the publisher stuff. I was asked not to post it publically.

Thanks for asking about my health. Thought I'd post that since so many people have e mailed me. I really do appreciate all my friends here.

I will be interested in joining anything anybody wants to do to take action and my hate for that publisher has not changed. I just think I've done and said about all I can.

Molly

[Sher2]

Can anyone confirm or deny that the extent of PA "editing" is sending back the PDF file together with a one-page list of common English errors with instructions to the author to find and correct them?


I've just finished my proofs (PDF file) this week, and I can confirm that I got no such list. Instead, I sent them a list of corrections. Alas, when I received the second set of proofs, not all of the very simple corrections had been made.

[AnneMarble]

She was not angry or insulting, just dumb. "We all needs help sometimes" It's hard to be angry with someone incapable of understanding.
:wha :smack

Thanks for posting that. I remembered reading something like that about a PA editor, but I couldn't remember who had posted it or the exact quote from the editor's e-mail.

[ncq13]

I just filed a complaint with the BBB today too, and hope to have my letter in to the AG this weekend. Should PA send a nasty note back to my very polite letter I will certainly print a copy and share it with the MD AG.
I have also sent my novel out to a couple of individuals for second opinions and plan on sprucing it up so that I can submit it elsewhere when my rights are returned.
This whole business has been draining and has made me miserable. It has been incredibly difficult to work on other projects and I have basically felt like both an a** (for falling for the scam) and a failure for not "really" being a published author. I'm glad I decided to stop "thinking" about facing the issues and start actually dealing with them head one. Finally having the courage to take action is quite liberating. I feel like I have energy again!
I can't thank everyone here enough for all of their help, information, and support.

[Sher2]

I'm glad I decided to stop "thinking" about facing the issues and start actually dealing with them head one. Finally having the courage to take action is quite liberating. I feel like I have energy again!
I can't thank everyone here enough for all of their help, information, and support.


Here's wishing you good luck and a speedy resolution. Oh, yeah, and -- wooo chaaaaaa!!

[D Dawes]

ncq13 I'm glad you're taking a stand to protect your book rights. PublishAmerica has a tendency to make everyone feel miserable. After all, negative energy breeds negativity. I hope you are successful in reclaiming your book rights without signing a gag order.

If you're looking for more ammunition to refute PA's claims that they are not obligated to get books placed on bookstore shelves, review the marketing material they sent you. Although they may have made some revisions so that the material does not contradict the revised website, here's what #7 stated a year ago:

"So, What's PublishAmerica Doing?

By now, you're probably wondering what PublishAmeria is doing for you while you're doing all of this. Well, I'll tell you. The first thing we do is create and send out a direct mailing for your book. Each book receives its own individualized mailing, and is not packaged with any other advertising material. The mailing is sent to every person on the mailing list that you provided to us after signing your contract. These mailings allow for pre-order of your book at a special, discounted price.

Meanwhile, if your book is not already finished, it is undergoing the production process. Our editors are hard at work preparing your book for print, and your cover is being designed. Once this is finished, the book is printed.

We then announce your book to the industry, listing it with Bowker's Books-In-Print, with wholesalers like Baker & Taylor, Brodart Co., and Ingram, and we make it available through the PublishAmerica website, and online bookstores such as Amazon.com, borders.com, BN.com, Chapters.com, and through the 50,000 corresponding bricks and mortar stores. Your book will be available through all of these channels within six weeks from the time you receive your complimentary author copies."

However, when this does not materialize and authors complain to the AG, they'll cushion their statements by saying, "In reference to bookstore placement, a word of caution.“

[Risseybug]

Our little company started out of that need and it feels great to treat our authors the way I wished I'd been treated.

Wow, if PA only knew that. LOL. That may be the one, and only one, good thing to come out of PA. They caused at least two people I know to start their own publishing house b/c of how badly they were treated.

Just in case you didn't know, LBF was the other one. The editor there got burned by PA too, and started that company, with help from someone else.

Interesting...

[Ed Williams 3]

....H. B. Marcus, explaining why those pesky bookstore managers still won't order PA/POD books after the explanation of the situation given by PA....


"It's up to the individual managers of the bookstores folks. I've caught them in lies before. They can order any books but most of the time they don't want to be bothered. That's where multiple book signings are important. That's where you are offering the public genre variety. That makes the managers take notice. Otherwise it's a lot of hassle for them and they just aren't interested in a new author.

If you want your book stocked in a book store you can play the garage band trick. Have people call the book store and ask if your book is in stock. They'll ignore the out-of-stock nonsense and order it anyway. Then you go in to the store personally with a copy in hand and ask them to stock your book.

I've done it for four years and it gets easier all the time. It used to be impossible to get on the shelves. Now it's a freakin' phone call! You explain that the book is incorrectly listed if that becomes a question. Take a promo pack with reviews and such to prove you're selling and doing well. And if you get the run-around from one of these store managers, you call their boss!

As far as setting up an individual signing goes, you're better off getting together with other authors. Go to a local library and set up any indiviual signings. The bottom line is that the individual store manager has to justify things with their boss. One unknown author asking for special treatment is going to be lied to. You have to show them they can sell books."

What an authority on this subject! It's just amazing, with PA author after PA author stating something like the below....

"I was refused by two bookstores, one including Barnes & Nobles, because they pulled me up in the system and showed me as being POD and that Ingrams, Baker & Taylor show that they do not stock my book. The first book store's community relations person would not even talk to me and hung up. The B&N community relations person said that they cannot stock me on the shelves or let me do a booksigning if Ingrams will not stock my book. They sent me an email asking for 2 pages of information, including a marketing and promotion plan, trade reviews (which I do not have), and a note describing how the book meets the competition / makes it unique. Then after I send all 2 pages of requirements, it will take 6 weeks just to be considered. I was hoping to be able to do book signings before the holidays to get some bulk sales,b ut I am just heldback right now."


If Meiners went out and took a leak on the White House Lawn, HB would tell everyone that it's National Pee For Freedom Week...

[KW]

Take a promo pack with reviews and such to prove you're selling and doing well. And if you get the run-around from one of these store managers, you call their boss!

I thought his solution, as he has said many times before, was to threaten to beat up the manager, not call their boss. I thought the threat of a whoopin' was how he got stocked in all of the stores around him?

If Meiners went out and took a leak on the White House Lawn, HB would tell everyone that it's National Pee For Freedom Week...

Nah, he would be an expert witness for the defense that peeing on the lawn was actually good for it, that it helped it grow greener and more plush. He would then bring in pictures of his lawn and say "You see my lawn, how green and plush it is? I piss on it nightly.":ack And if that didn't work he would threaten to beat up the jury because if they indicted his publisher they would then be taking food from his daughters mouth.:teeth

He has to try and calm the heard down because if there is a mass revolt then it will be taking food from his family. I still haven't figured that one out.:head I guess he thinks that people buy books based on who published it, not by the books own merit. If that was the case then every book released by TOR, Simon & Schuster, Viking, etc. would all be bestsellers. :smack After two years I still can't figure where this guy comes up with this stuff.:huh But since he says he knows more about the industry then we disgruntled authors do then it must be true, we should just listen to him.:hail

Kevin

[James D Macdonald]

Multiple author signings?

Wasn't that multiple-author signing fiasco that HB tried to arrange the kickoff for this very thread? Tell us how well that one went, eh?
A couple of comments on <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6294.htm" target="_new">this thread</a> over on the PublishAnything board--

Major points to remember:

All real publishers do a great deal of promotion of their books, but much of it is invisible to the author and the general public:

The things that real publishers do include:

Field a salesforce
Publish a catalog
Send review copies to major reviewers in advance of release
Take ads in the trade press

All authors get those things, free. The publisher is moving heaven and earth to get bookstore shelving (not availabilty, shelving) because they know that if the book doesn't sell, they'll lose money. They aren't pressuring the author to buy lots and lots of copies of their own books.

Book signings and book tours, especially for first-time writers, are usually a waste of time and money.

PetePea over there says, <Blockquote>"Sure, if Bill or Hillary come out with a book they'll break the bank for advertising. But what of the new, unknown author? I'd be willing to bet they do about the same as PA."</blockquote>

You'd lose that bet, PetePea.

And Tim186, Tim Smith, same thread, is the one that makes me want to bang my head on my desk:

<Blockquote>"I was at a large multi-author (100-plus) book festival when I ran into another first-timer from my home state. Through a series of miraculous events his ms. had caught the eye of a very well-known best-selling author, who strongly urged her house (St. Martin's) to consider the story this guy had written. He got a contract, etc., but was he riding the PR bandwagaon his publisher rolled out for him? No. He was standing at a table for 8 hours hawking his book, just like I was."</blockquote>

Listen, Tim -- on occassion, way back when, I went to a couple of those book festivals. Here's how it worked:

The state library association put on a do, with teachers and librarians invited from all over the state, held in a nice venue. They sent me a letter, asking if I'd like to participate. Well, sure, a chance to get out of the house for a day, and free donuts and coffee? Why turn that down? So my wife and I loaded up a case of books, an award statue or two, and drove down. (We donated books to the door prize. Why not?)

The books in that carton I took had been provided to me for free by the publishers.

And sure, I sat behind that table, with that nice array of books. I didn't have to. I didn't need to. But, since I'm a full-time writer, my time is my own, and it looked like it might be fun. (I do enjoy talking with my fellow writers, after all.)

Some authors there were self-published. I had a nice chat with one. He was a retired teacher, and was doing okay with local histories that he had printed locally and placed in local bookstores. The only time he lost money, he told me, was when he tried to get national distribution for a novel.

This was many years ago, before PublishAmerica came along. I'd hate to think of going out and doing that sort of thing now, when there's a chance that a PA author might see me and say, "Look! There's Jim Macdonald! See, he has to promote his books the same way I do!" because, y'know, I don't have to. I can sit home and write new books, and in the meantime post snarky messages about how PublishAmerica is lying to you.

Tomorrow, the local fire department is putting on a free pancake breakfast. I think I'll go. But you know what? Unlike a typical PA author I won't bring along a case of books and try to sell them. I'll just have some pancakes, chat with folks, and go home. The topic of my books probably won't even arise.

If PublishAmerica's style of promotion was worth a damn, legitimate publishers would be using it. They aren't, because it isn't. Publicity and marketing are too important to be left in the hands of amateurs.

Oh, yes, reviews.

Only sending review copies to reviewers who write and ask, after the book's come out, is a guaranteed way to make sure that you only get reviewed in minor venues. The word "useless" was coined for that. And we've seen the trouble that authors have in getting PA to send copies even to the reviewers who do write to ask.

Hey, Tim Smith -- I seem to recall you were involved in a group signing in a knick-knack shop where the shopkeeper was charging you a hundred bucks a table. How'd that go?

[Ed Williams 3]

...I just got my copy of "Ten Percent of Nothing," and it is fascinating. Thanks for recommending it - I would heartily suggest it as required reading for anyone here, from novice to seasoned pro. It details for all the world to see the seamy underbelly of the literary scam business, who knows, you might even recognize the practices of a certain publisher as you peruse its pages...

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://Http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809325756/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/" target="_new">Ten Percent of Nothing</a>.

The true story of Dorothy Deering and her long-running publishing scam.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As far as setting up an individual signing goes, you're better off getting together with other authors.<hr></blockquote>

No, HB, the best thing to do is have your publisher schedule your signings. Event planners much prefer talking to a publisher’s marketing dept. instead of an author who calls to beg for a signing. It’s simply more professional. A properly edited book, traditional return policy, and competitive discounts also make you more attractive.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The things that real publishers do include:

Field a salesforce
Publish a catalog
Send review copies to major reviewers in advance of release
Take ads in the trade press

All authors get those things, free. The publisher is moving heaven and earth to get bookstore shelving (not availabilty, shelving) because they know that if the book doesn't sell, they'll lose money. They aren't pressuring the author to buy lots and lots of copies of their own books<hr></blockquote>
(happy sigh) Thank you, Uncle Jim. Even the small fries understand this and implement these very tools. We bust our tails 24/7 to get our authors’ works out and it appears as though it’s beginning to pay off with two of our titles going national. To live off the backs of author purchases is simply smarmy and cheap. It’s sad that more people don’t understand that. All I can say is, live the dream, HB.

[Whachawant]

If PublishAmerica's style of promotion was worth a damn, legitimate publishers would be using it. They aren't, because it isn't. Publicity and marketing are too important to be left in the hands of amateurs.

Damn right. Its really too bad you couldn't post on the Publish America thread, James. Statements like this one would probably make these authors change their views in a hurry.
I wonder how many graphic artists and advertising agencies cash in on these people because they decide to invest in their own advertising.

[Ed Williams 3]

....regretably. I think in a lot of PA author's cases that they want to believe they are traditionally published so badly that they are going to believe that, no matter what information is given to them.

I wonder how many of PA's top ten sellers in last month's NY Times ad still have a few copies of their own books stashed around the house....

[arainsb123]

I wonder how many of PA's top ten sellers in last month's NY Times ad still have a few copies of their own books stashed around the house....

All of them, almost certainly. After all, how are they gonna find a few hundred people to unload their overpriced books on? They'd have to give them away.

[ncq13]

Hmmm. I do believe I have been banned. Suddenly, my password isn't working on the PA Public Boards. Guess they received my letter.
What is that link for the T-Shirts Dave?

[DaveKuzminski]

Just happened by and spotted your question. The link is www.cafepress.com/attackbutterfly (http://www.cafepress.com/attackbutterfly)

[bluwinteryfox]

I sent PA, the AG, the BBB of MD letters, as well as filling out a complaint on the FTC website. I did this all on October 7. On Friday, I received my certified letter postcard that was signed on the 11. I have yet to hear from PA, no nasty emails, letters, nothing. I tried posting on the PA message board and to my utter surprise I still can.

My questions is how long should I wait before sending PA another letter and/or an email.

:jump Many thanks. It's nice having such :nerd knowledgeable and nice :hug people to help all of us through this difficult time.

Monique

[KW]

My questions is how long should I wait before sending PA another letter and/or an email.

Do it now Monique since you will probably get back the standard reply to a letter.

"Your letter did not reach the intended recipients. In the future, please use
support@publishamerica.com as your sole point of contact. This way we can
respond to your issues much more quickly and efficiently."

What gets me about this reply is, do they use it only on authors? What if the power company sent a late notice? Does support email them back and say...

"Your letter did not reach the intended recipients. And as for your complaints about the bill being late? That is ludicrous. We have hundred of other debtors who recieve their money on time, and 9,000 happy authors who will back this statement up.

It goes without saying that our power will remain fully on, in effect and legally enforceable if you try to shut it off. If any new reasons have come about since your last request, you may state them by email, and we will consider them at our next review meeting, to be held at our leisure. Should you choose to present new reasons, our decision on your late notice will be made without regard for your letter. The existence of the letter will not be made known to the committee making the decision."?

Kevin

[BeckEaston]

Wow. Nuff said. Hey, does anyone know or has anyone received a letter from the AG? I did and then, I sent back my response in the allotted 10 days and then nothing. I went there and got nothing so I was wondering if anyone has heard any positive news? :thumbs

[Whachawant]

:rollin :lol :ha

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"Your letter did not reach the intended recipients. And as for your complaints about the bill being late? That is ludicrous. We have hundred of other debtors who recieve their money on time, and 9,000 happy authors who will back this statement up.<hr></blockquote>
Too dang funny, Kevin. Have you considered writing comedy?

[bluwinteryfox]

I received a reply from PA today. What I find really hilarious is I never stated in my letter to have my contract terminated. I just stated the price was too high,that they should adjust it and that they were using an unedited version of the manuscript. They tell me in the letter that they will not terminated my contract. All I can say is they do read this board. Now I have to decide what to do next.

And Kevin, your reply to me was great :clap
Monique

[BeckEaston]

That's what they did to me. They also used an unedited version. They harassed me with further emails, and called my lawyer and I "laughable." I'm out of my contract and own all my rights back. I've been a catalyst in submitting claims to the Attorney General's office, I contacted every single bookseller that PA does business with and informed them of how PA conducts business. I sent all my documentation to two media people I know of who are investigating this serious matter. To top it all off, I have some serious interest in my 6 novels from “major” publishers that HB says we wouldn’t get the time of day from. (I have yet to see HB or for that matter any PA enthusiast get queries on their work from such companies.)

Who's laughing now?

:thumbs

[KW]

Too dang funny, Kevin. Have you considered writing comedy?

I can't pull comedy of the top of my head Lynn, I need material to work with. Monique gave me an easy one to use and would I be me if I didn't use it? I can't take credit for anything funny I might say, I bow to the ones that set me up.:hail

I wouldn't try writing comedy Lynn. If I did HB would tell everyone that I am copying him and that I wanted to be like him.

Haven't you ever wondered if support only uses those emails on authors, or if they use them on anybody? I know I have. I'm still waiting for Meiners to do a :gone

Kevin

[James D Macdonald]

My questions is how long should I wait before sending PA another letter and/or an email.

Don't send them another email or letter. The next letter should be from a lawyer, and after that the next notice should be from the process server.

They have no intention of dealing honorably or honestly with you. They've long since blown past second chances. Don't screw around with those bozos. When you're dealing with crooks treat them like crooks.

[DaveKuzminski]

I have to agree with James Macdonald. They want to act like crooks, then you treat them in that manner.

By the way, Kevin, you ought to do a parody on the various letters that PA has sent to authors to show how others would be treated as you did for that one already. I can almost see the response they'll give to the bill collectors from the NYT for the ad.

[DeePower]

*****************************
*****************************

On the PA private board

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:30 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*I'm* the reason they have a Take It Outside Board.
But then differences of opinion still became too much for them, and voilà! I go banned.
A sad, obnoxious group, really.
_________________
James McCann

********************************
********************************

Dee Power --
Listen up PA people there is no "s" on Power.

[James D Macdonald]

Dee, I still object to posts from private boards being posted in public (leaving aside the fairness of slamming Canada James in a forum where he can't respond).

[CaoPaux]

Not to mention the vicarious thrill he'll get, knowing you're keeping tabs on him.

[vstrauss]

Let me add my objection to Jim's. Please, no porting of private posts to this public forum.

- Victoria