The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

[Sheryl Nantus]

my point, which you missed in the post, was that PA ABUSES these people a second time by publishing their traumatic stories and then taking money from them for it.

but, hey... whatever.

[Canada James]

my point, which you missed in the post, was that PA ABUSES these people a second time by publishing their traumatic stories and then taking money from them for it.

I got your point. I still don't think the way to point it out is by critiqing these people's books in this thread.

That's my point.

Cj

[aruna]

Who cares if he's sincere? A more pertinenent question is "can he write well?" or "will he sell any books?" Having read his excepts and not just a message board post, I'd say ix-nay on oth-bay.

.

This is the guy who boasted (!) on Shelagh's forum that he had sent off the first draft of his manuscript to PA without any revision whatsoever, and it got accepted "as is". He then went into a rant about "PA bashers", and gave us a dressing down for not recognising that he and other PAlers were "published authors" as good as any other authors out there. It was in answer to that rant of his that I posted this some time back:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=326942&postcount=24849

I am sure he is sincere and I'm sure that indeed writing his book was therapy; but I do blame PA for giving him an illusion which makes him look ridiculous, and makes a mockery of his awful experience.

[James D. Macdonald]

Okay, it's true: PA essentially pins a blue ribbon on the chest of everyone who enters the race, including the folks who were still lacing their sneakers in the locker room when the gun went off.

That doesn't mean that the authors are fair game. They are one and all sincere in their belief that they wrote a book of professional caliber -- they have PA's acceptance as proof!

We know that PA accepts books that aren't ready for publication. If you need to quote passages that prove it -- the full text of AN is available on line. You won't hurt my feelings one little bit by quoting it.

[SeanDSchaffer]

They are one and all sincere in their belief that they wrote a book of professional caliber -- they have PA's acceptance as proof!

We know that PA accepts books that aren't ready for publication. If you need to quote passages that prove it -- the full text of AN is available on line. You won't hurt my feelings one little bit by quoting it.


Hello everyone. It's been awhile since I've posted on this particular thread--I'd say about two or three months.

But I wanted to comment on what Uncle Jim said above.

The worst part about PA's acceptance policy is that, like many have said in the past on this same forum, a lot of the books that are accepted are very well written. But because PA also accepts poorly written books, many have the assumption that they're all bad. This is a fact that has irked me ever since I first realized my book would be looked upon poorly just because of the PA insignia on its back, title page and spine.

The sad part is that I've read and reviewed several of those authors' books* (the great professional reviewer that I am, snicker, snicker) and found the majority of the books I personally reviewed to be well-written. They were, of course, poorly edited for the most part, but nonetheless many of the books I personally reviewed were, in my humble opinion, books I would have bought were it not for the excessive prices and the lack of availability in my local bookstore.

Were it not for PA's business model and their horrible reputation in the publishing industry, many of their authors could have become (Again, all in my opinion) very well-known and respected authors possibly with their first works, and not had to wait until their second or third to even get off the ground.


*I reviewed electronic galley copies emailed to me by the books' respective authors. In accordance with their wishes I destroyed those copies when I was finished reviewing them.

[egem]

I often wish that I had of wrote: SIN OF THE POPPAS, years ago.Instead of waiting so late in life.Mainly because of how this book, with it's black cover, depicting a mountain scenery and rainbow; has changed the meaning of my life. To become an author,after living such a life-style that I had lived, has over-shadowed the past and now brings a proudness into my life, that I had never felt before.I had never gave thought;while writing my book that, all these change's would come about. I never dreamed that those in society,those in law-enforcement,, some with-in my own family and other's from my past, would because of this book,tell how proud they now are of me.I never-ever thought; that because of this book, I would ever find forgiveness in my heart for my abuseing father. After fifty years,I today ( because of my book and because of other's book's,one in particular) can say:Father, I forgive you!
I have never looked solely at the monetary value of my book. Rather I hope that for those who read it, that it will inspire those of abuse to not use being a victim of abuse, to destroy thier life after.
As I did. I chose to use the violence that was used against me, to control my life for years. Conciquently I and other's paid dearly.
So today with Gods help, and the reviews of my book.The many emails of thanks and encouragement and especially to you my friends and authors, I have closure and a new meaning to my life.That is what being a published author means to me.
Thank you,PublishedAmerica.



I told myself not to come back to this thread. I am having so much fun in the other rooms. This makes me sad.

This seems like some old guy (maybe not even that old) with a dialect who has written and published a book that he always wanted to publish. Yippee for this guy. We know PA will publish anything, so what is the difference? Let this guy live in lalaland. Why run off and ruin it for him. He's not hurting anyone. He "don't" seem too unhappy with what's going on, so I don't see the harm.

I don't see how well the book is written to be all that important here. I don't see the number of copies sold as all that important either. He has their book of the month and in a writer's world or to this board it might not mean anything, but it seems to mean a great deal to him.

He has his book and his smile and he's happy. No big deal. For other's that want a career in writing much of the things that come out on this board are really important, but this guy could give a rat's butt. The message can still be the same without pointing to PA writers or their work. IF YOU WANT A CAREER IN WRITING DON'T GO WITH PA. IF YOU ARE A SERIOUS WRITER DON'T GO WITH PA. PA WILL TAKE A LOT AND GIVE LITTLE BACK. THEY WILL PUBLISH ANYTHING. IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR COPYRIGHT OR ABOUT THE MONEY FROM THE BOOK OR ANYTHING MOST WRITERS CARE ABOUT DON'T GO WITH PA. This post can go in the overflow where it belongs.

[Bufty]

I frequently write to PA authors and in many cases they had already realised from their own browsing of other PA author websites that there is a serious question mark over the 'acceptance' procedures of PA.

I take everybody's point above but am only in favour of answering someone's PA post via this Board - not picking on any particular writer and his efforts - after all, it is only through his having being deceived and misled by PA that his work is available for us to see.

[Added] And if, instead of landing on PA's website, someone landed here and posted their work in the Share-your-Work forum for critique, we would be trying to help them improve their knowledge of the craft of writing - not solely pointing the finger at their shortcomings.

[Sparhawk]

Here's the problem with PA, as I see it. (Yes, just my biased opinion). Publish America is the "Farm League" of publishing. We all acknowledge that this outfilt will accept and print just about anything that comes there way. The reason this outfit accepts so many "Tragedy" stories is because these are the types of books that the writer will self purchase and his/ her family will self purchase. Everybody has a tale to tell and with PA one has the opportunity to get it printed, bound and out on the internet.

The illusion that a PA writer is a published author is just that, an illusion. I remember fantasizing about being a big leaguer when I played farm league baseball. It was a nice dream, but far from reality. Te same applies with Publish America. There is nothing wrong with providing an outlet for farm league literature. (MY BOOK INCLUDED)

Here's where the deal goes sour. PA promotes themselves as the Major Leagues and convinces their writers that they are just as good as Grisham, King, Rowlings, Moorcock, Eddings et al. This is like a Farm league coach telling his players that they're just a good as Manny Ramirez, Roger Clemens or any other pro ball player. Also, PA catches some real talent in thier web of lies and deciet, these talented writers are caught in a seven year web and are basically held hostage. This, to me, is the real crime. PA can silence all thier critics by simply retuning the rights to those who wish to have their rights returned. Vindictiveness and petty envy prohibits them from doing so. We must remember, none the the three PA leaders could get published legitimatly either.

Would a real professional publisher treat their authors like crap and transmit such sophmoric E-Mail replys that we continually see from Author Support? Would A major league publisher be happy with authors that sell and average of 75 copies per book ? We all know the answers to these questions... NO !! So what is Publish America? They're an opportunty for anyone and everyone to tell thier story. I don't think there's anyting wrong with that. The packaging and promotions this company pitches and the illusion that they attempt to peddal, however, are unjust and immoral. This, in my opinion, is the real crime. The peddaling of illusions and false dreams along with the extent this organization goes to try and keep the illusion alive in the face of all the obvious truth.

Just one guys opinion at 7:10 AM. Coffee anyone ??

-Sparhawk


p

[aruna]

I frequently write to PA authors and in many cases they had already realised from their own browsing of other PA author websites that there is a serious question mark over the 'acceptance' procedures of PA.

I take everybody's point above but am only in favour of answering someone's PA post via this Board - not picking on any particular writer and his efforts - after all, it is only through his having being deceived and misled by PA that his work is available for us to see.

[Added] And if, instead of landing on PA's website, someone landed here and posted their work in the Share-your-Work forum for critique, we would be trying to help them improve their knowledge of the craft of writing - not solely pointing the finger at their shortcomings.

You are perfectly right of course and normally I'd have nothing but sympathy and concern for this particular author... it's just his attitude that I felt needed attending to. And yes, I did feel guilty after responding as I did; but then, he asked for it! I never can resist a challenge, and he throw one boldly out there.

[LloydBrown]

Since I started this mess with the quote, let me step back in before people get riled up with each other.

I guess I'm exceptionally thick-skinned about my work. If somebody posts a clip of mine and says "this is unprofessional"--and it is--then I have no problem with that. I've accepted criticism and learned from it on other message boards in situations that apparently offend other people. I mentally separate my work from myself easily. It's just words, after all.

Hence, I detected no insult to the author in my presentation of his quote here. It is objectively verifiable that the selection I quoted violates grammar and spelling rules taught in public schools by the 8th grade. I didn't use subjective words like stupid, boring, or inane. In my mind, I'm just pointing out this "this batch of words" doesn't cut it, with no reference to the author at all.

I think we all agree with the point--PA publishes doggie doo, and even identifies doo as its best work because they can't tell the difference. And that this selection as Book of the Week is a slap in the fact of the good writers they have. And that you don't publish doo if you want to sell books to the public. I'm sure they were much more concerned about the author's number of children and grandchildren (potential buyers) than they were about the words in his manuscript.

Now that we're all on the same page on that element of the post, I'll try to avoid anything like a personal insult to an author. I think in this case in particular, quoting a book selection would have been better to my point and less offensive than a message board post.

[egem]

They're an opportunty for anyone and everyone to tell thier story. I don't think there's anyting wrong with that.


I agree with you Sparhawk and go one step further. The reason I don't think we should point to writers work from PA is because they didn't get any help with it. Who knows what it would have been if they would have gotten professional editing (others have said this). I'm sure there are professional writers on this board right now that have work in their computers that they don't want anyone to see until their editors run over it a few times. This is the nature of writing. Writers need help. When I worked in publishing we had a routing system that made sure even piece fell into the hands of X amount of editors. The saying was if the piece went through all these editors it had a chance of coming out without a mistake in the finish product. If it didn't it was sure to have mistakes.

The writers that go with PA and don't know what they are getting are hurt by the publishing of a work that has no editing. This hurts a writer in the worst way, in my opinion, it hurts their work.

[Dhewco]

But this isn't the thread to critique PA author's work. This is a place to discuss PA's business practices...
C. James


You miss the point Mr. CJ...publishing nonsense is a business practice for PA. There's too many substandard writing for it not to be. Sure, there are exceptions. I'm sure Nancy's book was good, and that among the 14k authors there are probably 100 or more exceptions.

But substandard writing in not an exception and pointing out the quality of their stated 'best' fits in very well with this board.


David

[Dhewco]

I got your point. I still don't think the way to point it out is by critiqing these people's books in this thread.

That's my point.

Cj

It's not so much a critique of the work as a critique of the publisher for printing lousy work.


David

[Jean Marie]

Actually, I believe Canada James nailed the point. Besides, Jenna's policy is to not attack/hold individual authors up to the light for criticism. Ask her. It's really not a point up for discussion. Putting PA's lack of business practice under the microscope is the point of this thread.

Please don't answer/reply w/ semantics.

[Bonnie Gibson]

I feel like someone SHOULD tell these people when the posts are so bad.

Not to make fun but to help. Do it in the right way.

Isn't this why we are here? Isn't this what PA is about, taking anything? Doesn't this prove our point?

With this grammar I doubt very seriously if anyone would give them a second of their time to look at a manuscript. (Except PA.) They need to watch how they post, even if it's not formal. This tells me something about a person. This tells me something about their manuscript. A true writer cares about his/her work. They want it to be as error free as possible.

This is what hurts all the PA authors who have written an excellent book. It gets thrown in the pile with all the other trash. Is it the authors who wrote bad books fault? NO. It's PA's for accepting such and telling the authors they are now published authors, and they are giving the book the chance it deserves. UGH!

None of the books go anywhere. The good ones are never going anywhere because PA won't help. The bad ones aren't going anywhere either. They are all thrown in a pile together for family and friends to order.


I feel if you expect someone to listen to you or to read a manuscript that you have written, you'd better watch your grammar. If you don't care how you sound on the message board, do you in your writing?

[Celia Cyanide]

This seems like some old guy (maybe not even that old) with a dialect who has written and published a book that he always wanted to publish. Yippee for this guy. We know PA will publish anything, so what is the difference? Let this guy live in lalaland. Why run off and ruin it for him. He's not hurting anyone. He "don't" seem too unhappy with what's going on, so I don't see the harm.

Actually, I think you're wrong about that, Egem.

This is the guy who boasted (!) on Shelagh's forum that he had sent off the first draft of his manuscript to PA without any revision whatsoever, and it got accepted "as is". He then went into a rant about "PA bashers", and gave us a dressing down for not recognising that he and other PAlers were "published authors" as good as any other authors out there.

As an unpublished writer, this irks me. I work very hard on my writing, and go over it many times before I even show it to a friend, let alone submit it somewhere. I recognize that I am not published. And this guy wants others to recognize his book as more important than mine? Sorry, but choosing PA to print something you wrote does not make you a more accomplished writer than I am. I could have done it myself, but I chose not to.

While I agree that it is probably not very productive to pick apart people's posts here, if someone is going to go around claiming to be a published author, don't expect me to nod my head and play along.

[Maddog]

Well, October has come and gone. Do we have the answer to the big question? Are "all" PA books returnable, as the website says? And why is no one questioning this on the PAMB?

[Dhewco]

Actually, I believe Canada James nailed the point. Besides, Jenna's policy is to not attack/hold individual authors up to the light for criticism. Ask her. It's really not a point up for discussion. Putting PA's lack of business practice under the microscope is the point of this thread.

Please don't answer/reply w/ semantics.

Semantics? LOL, You've got to be kidding. It's not so much an attack on the authors as it is an attack on the company that put that stuff out.

If I...never mind, I should never have got in this. I'm going to shut up now. Have a nice day.

David

[Jean Marie]

This is what hurts all the PA authors who have written an excellent book. It gets thrown in the pile with all the other trash. Is it the authors who wrote bad books fault? NO. It's PA's for accepting such and telling the authors they are now published authors, and they are giving the book the chance it deserves. UGH!
None of the books go anywhere. The good ones are never going anywhere because PA won't help. The bad ones aren't going anywhere either. They are all thrown in a pile together for family and friends to order.


I agree with you Bonnie w/ these comments. And it's not insulting to the authors. I recall how I felt when I was on the pamb (when I wasn't banned) and read remarks on this board that were aimed directly at me. Some were very unkind, calling my faith into question and taking me personally to task. All it did was reinforce the kool aid PA passed out.

In this respect, you/we are holding PA accountable, not the authors. It's PA's lies that are at fault here. The load of bs they dish out: giving your book the chance it deserves...something bigger than a bulldozer is needed for that one. That's the hook, the bait, the snare, or whatever you want to call it. The author hears that, sits back and says, "Hmm, I guess Aunt Mabel was right, I have inherited the writing gene." That's the tar pit PA uses to entrap new authors who know nothing of the publishing industry.

[BeeBomb]

Well, October has come and gone. Do we have the answer to the big question? Are "all" PA books returnable, as the website says? And why is no one questioning this on the PAMB?

They probably have questioned it...BUT...the questions have been pulled, deleted, maimed or chastised! As their reply always begins, "Don't take that tone with me." Everyone would have a better chance at batting snow balls toward the gates of hell!

BeeBomb

[Sparhawk]

Beebomb !! That remark was highly uncalled for. When you're "Revolutionizing" the publishing industry, things take time. How can Publish America be held accountable to such a deadline? Even if it's their own self imposed deadline. Where is your compassion, your understanding? This is a revolutionary event and such things take time. Why every day 125 new writers struggle to achieve the title of PA author. Did you know that every day Bookstores order Publish America books and stock them on their shelves? (Pet stores do too, it takes alot of paper to line those puppy cages.) With books available from sea to shining sea and on every part of the fruited plain, it's only reasonable that this great experiment be entered into slowly and carefully. Please, we will expect your apology immediately, clearly you need to seek council. In the future please don't take that tone with us. Only we at PA are allowed to be condescending and omnipotent.

BLAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gif http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gif

PA Books have as much chance of being returnable as my PA book does of being an NYT best seller.

[Jean Marie]

Hiya Sparhawkhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonhi.gif Can you take a moment to explain how it is PA revolutionized returnablity? Whenever I'm not satisfied w/ a product, I take it back, my money is returned, etc. For example; when I bought a book at a bookstore-the kind w/ shelves and things-you know, stuff you find in a bookstore...sorry. I brought the book back 'cause I didn't like it. And ya know what? They took it back!!!!! Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Returnable! So, how can PA lay claim to something that's already in place?? It's a little like saying Columbus discovered America...

I knew I was in deep doo doo when shortly after I signed that dreaded poc w/ the criminals, I walked into Borders (not the one where my book is) and asked if they stocked books printed by PA. (at the time, I used the other 'p' word, now I know better) And that is when I caught PeeAnts in their first lie. The guy told me nope, looked it up and said, no way ma'am, not happening. You all know that sinking feeling.

[MadScientistMatt]

Victoria's new thread about the contract mentioned some other abuses that PA could inflict, but I'm not sure how common they are. Anybody have any stories about the following items?

- Issuing a "new edition" to avoid paying higher royalties. Since I think you need to sell 2,000 copies to get into the higher bracket, this may not be an issue anyway...

- Insisting an author must make revisions to an already published book, or else they will make revisions and deduct the expenses from royalties.

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's the full text of PA's letter (9/13/05):

Dear Author,

Every hour of every business day, bookstores nationwide order and stock a new PublishAmerica title. The store manager has decided to stock it because he believes that the book will sell. As a result, thousands of PublishAmerica books are sitting proudly on bookstore shelves all across the fruited plain.

And they do sell. They sell regardless of whether the bookstore can return unsold copies.

A bookstore's decision to stock a book is generally made by the manager. A bookstore typically stocks just one percent of the 190,000 new books that are published each year. For bookstores to stock all books published would mean adding 20 feet of new shelf space every day, seven days per week. Therefore bookstore managers must be selective on what books they choose.

Sometimes they base the decision on whether the book is returnable. If the book is not returnable, they sometimes choose not to stock it.

Many of our titles are already returnable. We have been running an experiment with an increasing number of our titles. It appears that once a bookstore has established a book's selling potential, and stocked the book, the store manager's decision is proven right: PublishAmerica books are competitive, high quality, reliably selling books.

Therefore, as of next month, we are making all of our books returnable!

Although many of our titles are currently stocked in stores, you may soon find even more bookstore managers inclined to order and stock your book now that there is zero risk involved for them.

Please bear with us as we must do this gradually, in order to enable our wholesaler Ingram to accurately activate the new status on roughly eleven thousand books that are currently in print, starting with the titles that are selling more than 40 copies in September (libraries and individuals who order more than 40 copies this month are receiving a 40 pct discount; phone orders only at 301 695 1707).
Also, there will be a few exceptions initially, such as full-color picture books, and for the time being this revolutionary experiment will be limited to U.S. bookstores only. We will review the results after a few months and see what, if any, adjustments must be made.

Congratulations on being part of this exciting and revolutionary adventure.

--PublishAmerica Author Support

Let's see: How will they weasel that?

Therefore, as of next month, we are making all of our books returnable!

Perhaps "are making" is the clue. They didn't say that they'd make all their books returnable "as of" October '05, they said (if you read the words one particular way) that they'd start making them returnable then ... and didn't say when they'd finish the process.

I haven't yet done a line-by-line on that particular mendacious, false, deceptive and misleading advertising letter. I may yet.

[Susan Gable]

I agree with you Sparhawk and go one step further. The reason I don't think we should point to writers work from PA is because they didn't get any help with it. Who knows what it would have been if they would have gotten professional editing (others have said this). I'm sure there are professional writers on this board right now that have work in their computers that they don't want anyone to see until their editors run over it a few times. This is the nature of writing. Writers need help.

Dude, there's wanting an editor to go over your work to pick up the small errors that slipped past you, and the few grammar gremlins that each individual has, and then there's writing like we saw in that original quote.

Because I have to tell you, editors are heavily overworked these days. They are not looking to take work that's badly written and poorly spelled, that breaks too many of the "common" rules of grammar, and "fix" it. They don't have time for that. In commercial publishing (as opposed to "traditional publishing" as defined by PA - since PA calls itself a traditional publisher) editors don't read beyond the first page if they notice too many errors. If the query letter has too many errors, they won't bother to request the work. Don't believe me? Go read some of the editor/agent blogs out there. They're quite up-front that they don't want to see badly written queries/samples. Some of them will even say that one error will equal the kiss of death for them.

So, do I, as a professional writer, want my editor to go over and strengthen my work before the public gets to see it? To polish it up and remove the mistakes that I'm sure slipped by me the dozen times I edited it myself? Yes.

But, do I embarass myself and come across as not being able to write a coherent sentence, spell, or conform to the basic rules of grammar when I post in public without an editor checking my work? I don't think so.

Claiming that PA writers haven't had the benefit of an editor and therefore should not be held to the basic standards of decent writing doesn't wash. "Professional writers" as you refered to them in your post are most likely writing a heck of a lot better than that sample BEFORE editors get their red pens on their work.

This is another long-winded way of saying it DOES MATTER! Spelling, grammar, etc. all matter when you submit. Only at places like PA does quality of writing not matter. (And yes, yes, yes, they DO accept high quality pieces as quickly as low-quality. It simply does NOT MATTER to them.)

Susan G.

[Aconite]

Sorry, but choosing PA to print something you wrote does not make you a more accomplished writer than I am. I could have done it myself, but I chose not to.
Celia's made an important point here. When "being published" isn't a matter of being selected for quality, but just of being printed in book form, it means nothing. It does not make you an expert. It is not an indication that your book is better than someone's unpublished MS. All it means is that your MS is in book form. It certainly doesn't give you the right to look down on someone who is unpublished because they chose not to be merely printed.

[Aconite]

Claiming that PA writers haven't had the benefit of an editor and therefore should not be held to the basic standards of decent writing doesn't wash. "Professional writers" as you refered to them in your post are most likely writing a heck of a lot better than that sample BEFORE editors get their red pens on their work.
Tangental to this: Where, oh where, do people get the idea that everyone is entitled to be published, even if they can't write for beans? Because it's their dream? Do we let people drive 18-wheel tractor trailers even if they can't pass the driving test because it's their dream? Writing is a set of skills. It is not a matter of wishing or dreaming; it's a matter of developing skills. I'm not going to ignore that someone doesn't have the skills to do something just because they want to be able to do it.

Real publication is not something you get because you want it. It's something you get because you earn it.

[Christine N.]

Unfortuately, in order to point out that PA prints anything and everything, somebody's work must be held up as the litmus test of "good" or "bad". We all know that they have published both, but without actually reading it, some people won't understand just how bad.

Lloyd didn't use a name or book title; it could have been anyones. I don't think it was meant as a personal attack, but rather as a testament to PA's quality control.

It's one of those pesky side-effects - and sometimes unavoidable.

[BeeBomb]

Beebomb !! That remark was highly uncalled for. When you're "Revolutionizing" the publishing industry, things take time. How can Publish America be held accountable to such a deadline? Even if it's their own self imposed deadline. Where is your compassion, your understanding? This is a revolutionary event and such things take time. Why every day 125 new writers struggle to achieve the title of PA author. Did you know that every day Bookstores order Publish America books and stock them on their shelves? (Pet stores do too, it takes alot of paper to line those puppy cages.) With books available from sea to shining sea and on every part of the fruited plain, it's only reasonable that this great experiment be entered into slowly and carefully. Please, we will expect your apology immediately, clearly you need to seek council. In the future please don't take that tone with us. Only we at PA are allowed to be condescending and omnipotent.

BLAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gif http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gif

PA Books have as much chance of being returnable as my PA book does of being an NYT best seller.


Excuse moi! I will just back off from expressing my distain for PublishAmerica!
Have a good one...whatever it is!

[CaoPaux]

Tangental to this: Where, oh where, do people get the idea that everyone is entitled to be published, even if they can't write for beans? Vanity presses like PA, duh! :tongue

(psst, BeeBomb! Sparhawk was making with the funny, not laughing at you. :kiss: )

[Aconite]

Unfortuately, in order to point out that PA prints anything and everything, somebody's work must be held up as the litmus test of "good" or "bad". We all know that they have published both, but without actually reading it, some people won't understand just how bad.
Yeah. If the only thing ever quoted is Atlanta Nights, people can dismiss that as a fluke.

There's a difference between an action that was intended to hurt someone, and one that hurts them incidentally. I wouldn't deliberately hurt someone, but I'm not going to bend over backwards make sure nobody's feelings would be hurt by what I say, either. Down that road lies, "If you say bad things about PA, it hurts the authors, so you shouldn't do that."

[egem]

Does everyone have the right be published? Should everyone have the right to tell their stories? Should the doors to publishing be opened wide to let everyone in? Honestly, I don't know. This is an outside post I'm sure, but I feel like this thread bumps up against this all the time. The more electronic we go the more we will see this happening. What happens if someday everything is read through PCs and PDAs? Will everyone publish then?


As for the deadline, I talked to a PA author that is not critical of the company just the other day (yes before the deadline), and even he doesn't feel as though they can come through on their promise. Maybe select books could be returned. I'm not sure how this model would work for them without them giving up profit.

[Richard]

What happens if someday everything is read through PCs and PDAs?

Exactly the same thing that happens with everything else - everyone can get a handful of readers, while the overwhelming majority of the market flocks to a relative handful of sources.

[astonwest]

Well, October has come and gone. Do we have the answer to the big question? Are "all" PA books returnable, as the website says? And why is no one questioning this on the PAMB?
Because there are tons of authors out there trying to sell the 41+ copies of their book they bought to try and make their book returnable first?

Either that, or the vast majority figured out the scam early on, and have since left the PAMB (on their own, or by force)...

[astonwest]

I'm not sure how this model would work for them without them giving up profit.
I believe somewhere back in this thread, Bonnie pointed out that it's not a full 100% return...they still make a profit, even on books that are returned.

Meanwhile, the store ends up eating cost regardless of whether they leave the book on the shelf or return the book...which means they aren't going to bother ordering anyway.

I went to a store the other day that used to stock a few copies of PA books if they were any good (after reading a sample copy). The new policy is "we no longer stock any POD books, and POD special orders have to be paid for in advance, because people were ordering and then not picking them up."

Sigh...

[SeanDSchaffer]

Here's the full text of PA's letter (9/13/05):






Dear Author,


....Snipped....

Therefore, as of next month, we are making all of our books returnable!




....Snipped



I thought I'd look up PA's website and see if they really were returnable. The following is from PA's Website, on the Ordering Information Page:



Our books ship United States Postal Service Media Mail. For details, see the USPS website.



Our books are non-returnable.


All sales are final.


Please allow 2 to 6 weeks from ordering to delivery on all orders placed without rush specifications.


My Emphasis.

[Christine N.]

The other thing that comes up is that if if someone is going to bandy about the title "Author", "Published author" and the like, one had better be willing to have their work put up to public scrutiny.

All of us have to do it - it's called sending your book out for review. Beyond that, it's about the readers. If readers hate it, you'd better believe you're going to hear about it.

I don't think any PA's work is off-limits. If you read my book, you are more than welcome to criticize it. It's for public consumption. That's the difference b/w this forum and the SYW forum... the SYW forum, most people want the critique - they know its not perfect. Many PA authors think their work is.

And I'm not saying this, again, to be personal. It's all about PA, even if it doesn't look that way.

[James D. Macdonald]

What would it actually take for PA to make all its books returnable?

One phone call.

IBC: Hello, Ingram Book Company. May I help you?

PA: Hi, this is Jennifer with PublishAmerica.

IBC: Hi, Jenny! What's up?

PA: Not too much. Can you mark everything with the ISBN 1-4137 as returnable?

IBC: Sure thing. [pause] You got it!

PA: Thanks! Have a nice day.

IBC: You too!

[SC Harrison]

Unfortuately, in order to point out that PA prints anything and everything, somebody's work must be held up as the litmus test of "good" or "bad". We all know that they have published both, but without actually reading it, some people won't understand just how bad.

Lloyd didn't use a name or book title; it could have been anyones. I don't think it was meant as a personal attack, but rather as a testament to PA's quality control.

It's one of those pesky side-effects - and sometimes unavoidable.

The book title was listed at the beginning of the post, but Lloyd did leave the guy's name out.

Look, I agree that samples of (extremely) poor writing could be a powerful tool to show PA's lack of selectability, but I believe more could be done to keep them anonymous. It's the sample that's important, not who penned it.

Steve

[tab]

Does everyone have the right be published? Should everyone have the right to tell their stories? Should the doors to publishing be opened wide to let everyone in? Honestly, I don't know. This is an outside post I'm sure, but I feel like this thread bumps up against this all the time. The more electronic we go the more we will see this happening. What happens if someday everything is read through PCs and PDAs? Will everyone publish then?


For me, the issue is not whether everyone has a right to publish. The issue is whether everyone has the right to publish or print their work without being scammed and I say that they do. Whether you publish with LuLu, Random House, or Kinkos, you should get the benefit of what you bargain for. PA does not give its authors the benefit of their bargain.

I personally do not care if some half-wit with all the prose style of a dissected lizard writes a book and "publishes" it. I just care that the guy goes into it with his eyes open, with full knowledge of what he can and cannot expect, etc. Now if the guy has delusions of grandeur and thinks his work is the best since Pinchon's Gravity's Rainbow, godspeed and good luck to him, he may be vastly disappointed at the lack of his book's acceptance by the reading public but I can't have sympathy for people with their heads in the clouds. I can and do have sympathy for people who have been defrauded, because the very problem with scammers is that they lie and do not allow people to go into things with their eyes open, etc.

[Jean Marie]

The book title was listed at the beginning of the post, but Lloyd did leave the guy's name out.
Look, I agree that samples of (extremely) poor writing could be a powerful tool to show PA's lack of selectability, but I believe more could be done to keep them anonymous. It's the sample that's important, not who penned it.
Steve
Both Steve and I are ex PA'ers. If you don't come from that horrid experience, you can't understand the sensitivity. It takes time to be deprogrammed. It's brutal on the receiving end of having your work held up to the light w/o having requested the critique.

[James D. Macdonald]

Steve, Jean Marie, I mentioned/talked to both of you while you were still on the PA board, right here in this thread.

If I offended you, please accept my apologies.

[UPDATE:] Here's one such post: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=182063&postcount=19152

[Christine N.]

It's brutal for any writer. Hey the NYT pans books all the time. Writers get their work rejected every single day. I know it stings for new writers, until the skin thickens up a bit. It did for me - those rejections with a simple "no" slashed across the top of my own query letter stuffed in my SASE. Ouch.

Having one's work criticized may be a rough birth into the real world, but, well, there you are. I don't subscribe to the school that says that PA authors are dumb, lazy or stupid. On the contrary, I think they're nice people who just trusted a little too much.
The work, however, may need to see the light of day, and be called what it is, for some to see the devil for what he is (PA).

Invited critique or not... do you think most people who write reviews on sites such as Amazon were invited to do so? Well, ok, you know some were, but on most books, from legitimate publishers, reader write reviews there every day, never having asked for permission from the author.

Having the book in print, for public consumption (regardless whether or not the public can actually get a hold of it) gives people permission to critique it. That's why writing is so scary - you publish a book and hold your breath to see if people in general like it as much as you, your editor, your agent, and the publishing house. Hey, all those people could be wrong - it's happened.

And I totally agree- people have the right to publish work without being scammed.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Steve, Jean Marie, I mentioned/talked to both of you while you were still on the PA board, right here in this thread.

If I offended you, please accept my apologies.
....Snipped.


I believe I did the same thing a few times myself. Especially to Steve. I offer my apologies as well.

[PVish]

Originally Posted by Maddog
Well, October has come and gone. Do we have the answer to the big question? Are "all" PA books returnable, as the website says? And why is no one questioning this on the PAMB?

They probably have questioned it...BUT...the questions have been pulled, deleted, maimed or chastised! As their reply always begins, "Don't take that tone with me." Everyone would have a better chance at batting snow balls toward the gates of hell!
BeeBomb

Ah, but White Raven noticed:http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=7660&sid=60b94282712980cbbcf327f8b73fa031
Well, it is November 1. Has anyone out there had their books made returnable by PA? Seems to me someone should have by now.

. . . and after two others have answered, including this one:
on one of the loops for writers I belong to, someone else on there is published with PA. She said she emailed PA and asked them about that and they replied back and told her all books will be returnable by December 1.
. . .he continues
For some reason I got the impression that some books would be made returnable by November 1st, I guess that was December 1st.

As far as making the determination, I suppose you could simply check with your local bookstore and have them pull your book up on the computer and check it that way.

I am having a hard time understanding that it will make much difference, returnable or not, since we are still unknown except perhaps in our local community, and we still have to convince each individual store manager to order the books. We are still competing for limited shelf space against nationally promoted books, and the bookstore For some reason I got the impression that some books would be made returnable by November 1st, I guess that was December 1st.

. . . and Infocenter speaks:
Many titles have already been made returnable from the day we first made our announcement. Many others have followed since then. And on the first day of each new month many, many more others are following, including today, November 1.
Why? Because Ingram/Lightning Source updates their returnable listing for books already in print only once per month. We are making the changes in close consultation with them, given the uniquely large number of titles involved.

[rekirts]

Why? Because Ingram/Lightning Source updates their returnable listing for books already in print only once per month.


Is this true or is it just another PA smokescreen? Does anybody know?

[SC Harrison]

Steve, Jean Marie, I mentioned/talked to both of you while you were still on the PA board, right here in this thread.

If I offended you, please accept my apologies.

[UPDATE:] Here's one such post: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=182063&postcount=19152

James, you have always been a gentleman in your dealings with others (including me), and you have shown an uncommon restraint with those who have viciously attacked you.

p.s. the comment I made about dwindling sales was taken from an NPR interview with a high-ranking lady in the NEA. She was talking about readers moving away from literature in favor of sensationalized non-fiction. That doesn't necessarily mean fiction book sales had dropped, but it didn't keep me from saying so ;)

[Canada James]

You miss the point Mr. CJ...publishing nonsense is a business practice for PA. ... But substandard writing in not an exception and pointing out the quality of their stated 'best' fits in very well with this board.

And if the sole objective of the board was to point out PA's failings at any cost, you'd be right.

But the second objective is to create a forum where PA authors will feel welcome when they come to realize just what they've signed onto.

You nullify objective #2 when you openly ridicule a person's writing, especially when it is completely unnecessary to do so.

That's my opinion. I got your points. Hopefully you got mine.

Cj

[Canada James]

The other thing that comes up is that if if someone is going to bandy about the title "Author", "Published author" and the like, one had better be willing to have their work put up to public scrutiny.

Agreed. Just not in *this* thread.

Cj

[roach]

Quote:
Why? Because Ingram/Lightning Source updates their returnable listing for books already in print only once per month.
Is this true or is it just another PA smokescreen? Does anybody know?

An additional question: are Ingram/LSI related in any way? I thought the one had nothing to do with the other.

[James D. Macdonald]

People who write badly are unable to see that it is bad.

If they could see it, they'd fix it, wouldn't they?

That's tougher than noticing that you didn't hit the ball, or that everyone else crossed the finish line ahead of you.

[SC Harrison]

I believe I did the same thing a few times myself. Especially to Steve. I offer my apologies as well.

Sean, I know how much the Wyvernia Chronicles meant to you, and I know how hard it was for you to get where you are today. If you ever did something to me that bothers you, be at peace, my brother. I'm just glad you're writing again.

[James D. Macdonald]

An additional question: are Ingram/LSI related in any way? I thought the one had nothing to do with the other.

Ingram owns Lightning Source.

[roach]

Ingram owns Lightning Source.

Ah, thank you.

*ponders making a phone call tomorrow*

[SeanDSchaffer]

Sean, I know how much the Wyvernia Chronicles meant to you, and I know how hard it was for you to get where you are today. If you ever did something to me that bothers you, be at peace, my brother. I'm just glad you're writing again.


I appreciate that, Steve. Thank you for your kindness.

:Sun:

[mdin]

The FBI's new website may be a new resource to complain, especially for those whose books are being sold after you've had your rights returned.

http://www.lookstoogoodtobetrue.com/file.htm

If you click the ic3 link, you'll see you can complain about several things, including intellectual property theft. It can't hurt, I suppose.

[aruna]

Here's a quote from White Raven on the PAMB:
The answer kept coming back from the wholesaler. We want a 55% discount and we want to be able to return the book within 90 days for a full refund. Effective October 1st, PA begins to lift one of the obstacles with their new return policy; however, I am not sure they are going to go for the 55% discount. Right now, they allow only a 40% discount to libraries, and I believe bookstores. That they would reduce their profit per book by another 15% might be a little much, since they are publishing the book for nothing and have to make their profit on the back end. (My highlighting)

Nobody has commented on this as of now (probably never will). That bit on having to make the profit on the back end is illuminating. It shows our friend is thinking....

[James D. Macdonald]

Ah, yes ... that thread is about getting books into truck stops.

A PA author says:

I have been unable to get any answers from either Barjan or PA, so am still in the dark. The only response I received from PA was to tell Barjan to talk to Ingrams, so it all sounds kind of like a anybody everybody, somebody, and nobody story.

I can tell you the answer: Your book won't get into truck stops.

Why not? First, that's the mass market/ID system. PA doesn't have anyone who understands how to place a book there. (Witness their answer, to have Barjan talk to Ingram -- that means PA doesn't have a clue. Real publishers have people who specialize in dealing with the IDs.) Second, your book needs to be strippable. It isn't. Third, your book needs to be rack sized. It isn't. Fourth, your book needs to have a long discount. It doesn't have one.

So, don't look for your book in any truck stops. It won't be there.

[Christine N.]

Yeah, I'd be interested to see what Ingram says about that. Someone should send them a screen shot of Infohelmet's answer about that. Especially the part where they say that "many of our titles are already returnable from the day we made the announcement"

Since WE know that Bonnie called, and that's a flat-out LIE. Wasn't she told, mid-month and just recently that NO PA titles were returnable yet?

[James D. Macdonald]

"many of our titles are already returnable from the day we made the announcement"

It all depends on what they mean by "many."

It could be that they're talking about that bare handful of "Independence Books," which had some sort of highly-restricted returns plan, hedged about with so many terms and conditions as to be useless.

[Sparhawk]

Hiya Sparhawkhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonhi.gif Can you take a moment to explain how it is PA revolutionized returnablity? Whenever I'm not satisfied w/ a product, I take it back, my money is returned, etc. For example; when I bought a book at a bookstore-the kind w/ shelves and things-you know, stuff you find in a bookstore...sorry. I brought the book back 'cause I didn't like it. And ya know what? They took it back!!!!! Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Returnable! So, how can PA lay claim to something that's already in place?? It's a little like saying Columbus discovered America...

I knew I was in deep doo doo when shortly after I signed that dreaded poc w/ the criminals, I walked into Borders (not the one where my book is) and asked if they stocked books printed by PA. (at the time, I used the other 'p' word, now I know better) And that is when I caught PeeAnts in their first lie. The guy told me nope, looked it up and said, no way ma'am, not happening. You all know that sinking feeling.

I knew I was in deep doo doo when I kept heearing the non returnable, poor discount vanity press mantra from just about every bookstore I visited when my book came out. I had a few booksigning at Barnes And noble and dropped over $500.00 to provide the books. I still have the box and most of the books. B&N purchased the other books for the other two authors. Talk about feeling out of your league.

My doo doo became deeper when Borders actually wanted to stock my book and have me actually attend and participate in several events. But then the whole price issue popped up again. When I begged PA for a break things quickly spiraled to hell in a hand basket. Luckily I had the good people of AW for support as I discussed the harassment charges with the cops. I think with Publish America, they've adopted the "Washington DC" policy. I.E. if you tell a lie long enough and to enough people eventually it will be accepted as truth.

Beebomb, I hope you realize my reply was toungue in cheek posing as the all powerful PAvidian Author Support. If you thought I was in any way jumping ugly with you personally, let me offer you my sincerest apologies, that was not my intention.

[Jean Marie]

Steve, Jean Marie, I mentioned/talked to both of you while you were still on the PA board, right here in this thread.
If I offended you, please accept my apologies.
[UPDATE:] Here's one such post: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=182063&postcount=19152

Hey, Jim, I love you toohttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteHug2.gif I clicked on the link and sped read. Anything you said was never and is never mean spirited. You state the facts, others run smear campaigns for no worthy end (no one on this board) and you've helped many aspiring authors-me included. You're one of the most generous and amazing guys I know-next to Sparhawkhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

A lot of things were said all the way around and I've apologized for my comments. And, Jim, I hope you were included in that. The sad part is that's what PA does to people. Some never get over what's happened to them and carry their bitterness, lashing out whenever they can; unable to forgive. Again, not anyone on this board. Those individuals I feel sorry for.

Okay, Jim, Steve and Sean: group hughttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteHug2.gifhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteHug2.gifhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emotePartySmiley.gif

[BeeBomb]

:) Ah, Darlin', I knew your comment was tongue in cheek. You won't see this BeeBomb gittin' feathers ruffled or going away in a pout to chew my bubble gum in private. I've read too many of your posts to know how you feel about PublishAmerica.

Now, Sweet Thing, you just go on and do your thing...write to your heart's content and stick it to them where the sun doesn't shine!

BeeBomb

[momwrites]

For those who don't me; I got scammed as well and I do have to say the one thing that irks me more than anything is when other people tell me I should have known better or "But you didn't have to pay for anything." My DH keeps bringing up his point that if all someone wants to do is FEEL a book in their hands and tell everyone they are a "published" author, then nobody gets hurt, right?

Wrong. for the three-quarters of authors that are like the above, more power to you, BUT for the rest of us who want to make a living at writing, it toughens more the already tough standards for traditional publishing, IMHO. Not only that, but it labels us as PAvidians with people saying we know as much about writing as a cat knows about how to bark. Now, don't get me wrong, there are some that don't have a clue and think they should be on the high road to riches, because they "Published a book." It takes time; it takes patience (as my DH keeps telling me, even though I have been waiting close to eight years to have my first book that I self-published, published the traditional way, you know, edited, marketed, promoted, distributed...and am already writing my fifth book and my YA trilogy is getting published in 2007 by Millennial Press) Whew~ Ok, sorry about that bit of rambling...

Anyway, as I was saying...PA puts a stain on any resume...it really does, because some of the editors I have approached found out I published a book with PA and almost immediately rejected me. "Oh, she's one of THOSE authors." It hurts and I don't know how to get my rights back (you would think if a book sold 0 books that they wouldn't want it anymore...:confused: but whatever...

If most of the PA'ers would stop kidding themselves and really ask the hard questions, most of them would be here by now...

[BeeBomb]

Momwrites, we could :Lecture: till the cows come home to those PublishAmerica authors whose penchant for being on the PAMB is all they live for...it's an addiction. However, if you read between the lines on some of the messages, you will see they have already learned what PublishAmerica is all about. Subtle messages are hidden within answers to those who have been duped by PublishAmerica. Some of the PA'ers stay on the board, until they are banned, to relay messages to those who have been banned, letting us in on what is happening. Believe me, there are tons of PublishAmerica authors who know whats going on but stay to get email addresses from the newbies! They. then in turn, pass along data. PublishAmerica may think they have happy authors, but they don't have a clue!!!


Yes, you are right about the strain PublishAmerica puts on the passionate writer, the writer whose life blood is spilled with pen and paper. It is exteremly hard to overcome the concrete barricade of being published by PublishAmerica. Hang in there, Momwrites, together...we can be the author we dream of being. WE CAN DO THIS!


BeeBomb

[LloydBrown]

Momwrites, we could :Lecture: till the cows come home to those PublishAmerica authors whose penchant for being on the PAMB is all they live for...it's an addiction. However, if you read between the lines on some of the messages, you will see they have already learned what PublishAmerica is all about.

The worst ones are the ones that Uncle Jim describes as "playing the Published Author Role-Playing Game" (which I might actually design one day, just for fun). PA does fulfill their needs: they need a book in their hand, they need a company that they can refer to as their "publisher", and they need at least the promise of a royalty check (even if they don't actually get one or if it's reduced by fraud).

These people are extremely reluctant to see any vision of the world other than their own.

[momwrites]

Momwrites, we could :Lecture: till the cows come home to those PublishAmerica authors whose penchant for being on the PAMB is all they live for...it's an addiction. However, if you read between the lines on some of the messages, you will see they have already learned what PublishAmerica is all about. Subtle messages are hidden within answers to those who have been duped by PublishAmerica. Some of the PA'ers stay on the board, until they are banned, to relay messages to those who have been banned, letting us in on what is happening. Believe me, there are tons of PublishAmerica authors who know whats going on but stay to get email addresses from the newbies! They. then in turn, pass along data. PublishAmerica may think they have happy authors, but they don't have a clue!!!



BeeBomb

You are right, BeeBomb. I have noticed that some do see what is going on, and its true, you have to be very careful what you write on those boards or you're history and then the slamming begins. I haven't been banned, yet, but that is because I haven't said my .02 cents and am trying to NOT rock the boat, so to speak, in order to one day get my rights back, hopefully before the seven years is up, which is another 4 years, 9 months...yes, I am counting down. I'm just scratching my head as to WHY they won't release the rights to me. :Huh:

[BeeBomb]

Momwrites, if you don't get back your rights, it's because PublishAmerica would have to admit they did something wrong and wag their tails under their behinds because their happy authors aren't as happy as they let on. They would wind up with egg on their faces. Too many authors getting their rights back would show other authors the route to go.

Even those authors whose rights have been reverted are still hanging in limbo. PublishAmerica, as long as they can get a penny (notice we don't get all our royalties...it goes to pad their bank accounts,) won't relinquish everything until the contract runs out. Guess what? Even then, the contract we signed will still be a yoke around our necks and they will be pulling on the reins. One of these days, the yoke will be on the 'jokers' and they will lose everything they have amassed. Remember, it takes 10 years to actually become on solid footing in any business...one of them will slip up...then the they will wonder where they went wrong. The IRS will soon discover their hideyholes! Won't be too soon for me.

BeeBomb

[priceless1]

From the PA icon: Why? Because Ingram/Lightning Source updates their returnable listing for books already in print only once per month.
To which rekirts asked:
Is this true or is it just another PA smokescreen? Does anybody know?
Publishers who list their titles with Ingram have a buyer. It's true that LSI does the footwork for PODs who choose to utilize their "services." That's one of the reasons why LSI charges far above the going rate for printing a title. But one should remember that PA claimed to be personally dealing with Ingram during the POD/Ingram fiasco last year. This is consistent with having a buyer. All it takes is a call or email to your buyer to change the disposition of any title. It takes very little time.

A company is in business to sell their product and will do everything to initiate policies that will expedite that result. That they are dragging their feet with this return policy suggests that this is not where they make their money.

Another thing to consider are the actual terms of their return policy. Is it a standard return policy or have they imposed terms so stringent that bookstores will continue to decline to carry PA books? If it's the latter, then the logical question is, why is PA is bothering to institute a return policy at all? Could it be window dressing to quiet their thousands of happy authors?

[aruna]

While browsing on this thread I came across this terrible PA story:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=115273&postcount=10019

the story was so awful, with the PA author fearing destitution and homelessness, having invested $54000 in promoting his PA book, that I mailed him to ask if he is OK.
I received the following reply:

Thanks for your note.

Yes, I am fine. I found a new job etc and have begun
rebuilding my life though I did end up filing for
bankruptcy protection.

Unfortunately while still in the "honeymoon" period
with PA I submitted a second book which they accepted.
It was released in September of this year.

I have not purchased any copies and am doing extremely
little to promote.

Maybe one day I will have my rights back and will be
able to edit both books into one and find a "real"
publisher.

Again, thanks for your note of concern.

Peace,
Larry~

[underthecity]

why is PA is bothering to institute a return policy at all? Could it be window dressing to quiet their thousands of happy authors?
Or is it merely a short-term attempt to boost their low sales caused by sites like this one? After all, they have a helicopter to pay for (an important thing for every publishing company to have).

allen

[Sassenach]

[QUOTE=Jean Marie]
. The sad part is that's what PA does to people. Some never get over what's happened to them and carry their bitterness, lashing out whenever they can; unable to forgive.



[QUOTE=Bee Bomb]Yes, you are right about the strain PublishAmerica puts on the passionate writer, the writer whose life blood is spilled with pen and paper. It is exteremly hard to overcome the concrete barricade of being published by PublishAmerica. Hang in there, Momwrites, together...we can be the author we dream of being. WE CAN DO THIS!



This sounds like more of the Author Role-Playing Game to me. As Stephen King writes eloquently about in On Writing, it's important to take the work seriously, but not yourself. Being a professional writer means being willing to accept that frequent rejection is part of the business.

I'm for getting mad and even, but not for making being scammed your identity.

[DaveKuzminski]

A recent response from a PA employee indicates that all is not well inside PA land offices. The return policy was instituted primarily in order to foster sales by those unfamiliar with PA's past behavior or still too trusting of PA. As well, there are now ten names of individuals whom Larry and Willem hate rather than the eight of yore. Those names are: Jenna Glatzer, Anne Crispin, Dave Kuzminski, Dee Power, Ed Williams, Victoria Strauss, Rebecca Easton, Lynn Price, C.E. Petit, and James Macdonald.

Speaking for myself, I revel in their hatred since that means I'm having some effect upon their operations by striving to help their authors and others get a fair deal. Between their hatred and the thanks I have received from many writers, I consider what I've accomplished so far to be worthwhile and important even though my portion has been but a small part of the overall effort.

[LloydBrown]

Could it be window dressing to quiet their thousands of happy authors?

Ya think?

Here's a question for a PA author: Is *your* book returnable? Watch carefully here. That expression is my total lack of surprise at your "no" answer.

[Sparhawk]

I would think that the "Returns" policy is a smoke screen. If Publish America was serious about this they could have responded to the PAMB thread by actualy listing some of the books that have been made returnable over the past month and invited the dissenting PAvidians to research those titles via bookstores et al. This would have gone a long way to establishing some credibility to thier claim. (My PA book is not returnable yet. LOL)

The ambiguous claims of "Many" and "Some" which are frequently tossed around by Infocenter and Author Support leave holes big enough to drive a car through.

PA will not state which books are returnable because I sincerely beleicve that they have no intention of making thier books returnable. Bookstores don't carry PA books, so making them retunable has no impact on PA either way. If they wanted to really show thier authors that they beleived that PA books were just as good as real books; make them returnable from authors who buy in bulk for their local booksignings. Again, that would never happen because PA knows that there really isn't a market for Publish America's product save for the current 15,000 hostages they have under contract along with their friends and family. Makeing book returnable to authors woul dput them out of business.. Then we'd really see how many PA books are author purchases.

Words are powerful tools and PA slings words and phrases around like a seasoned con artist. Everything they say can always be interpreted more than one way and numeric figures or statistics are rarely cited or provided, and if provided have no real way of being verified. Publish America is good at what they do; scam. They're deliberatly vague about intentions and actions, this gives them more than enough wiggle room to dodge any accusations.

[James D. Macdonald]

For all my PA author friends:

YES: Write to regulatory and law enforcement agencies, and to your local newspaper, telling the story of your experiences.

BUT ALSO:

Write a new, different, better book and start shopping it around to legitimate publishers. You're a writer. WRITE!

[priceless1]

...As well, there are now ten names of individuals whom Larry and Willem hate rather than the eight of yore. Those names are: Jenna Glatzer, Anne Crispin, Dave Kuzminski, Dee Power, Ed Williams, Victoria Strauss, Rebecca Easton, Lynn Price, C.E. Petit, and James Macdonald.

Speaking for myself, I revel in their hatred since that means I'm having some effect upon their operations by striving to help their authors and others get a fair deal.
Well, laughingly enough, even though I'm ancient history I somehow made their list. Go figure. I don't revel in much of anything with respect to this company because they're small potatoes in my current world. Their highly questionable business platform serves as my personal inspiration to continually conduct a clean operation that supports the advancement, sales, and shelf space for our authors. For me, PA is an afterthought, much like an irritating bug. If being the antithesis of everthing PA represents draws their ire, then perhaps they should look at their reflection a tad more often.

Write a new, different, better book and start shopping it around to legitimate publishers. You're a writer. WRITE!
Jim is absolutely right. Be better than what you belive PA made you. Take the adversity with you and keep it close, but not too close. Cherish the lesson but transcend yourself beyond the insignificant boundaries of PA. They simply aren't worth the effort of your angst.

[DaveKuzminski]

Well, they hate you for at least two reasons. You proved that a company with fewer resources than PA could do legitimate publishing and succeed. You write better than Larry and Willem. ;)

[Sparhawk]

My hats off to the top 10 enemies of PA. People are not only judged by their friends, but also by thier enemies. Being on PA's top 10 list simply means that you all have a sense of compassion, honor and fair play and you don't like to see new writers get hurt. I tilt my blade and bow my head in respect to each one of you. :Hail: Keep up all of your great work and THANK YOU !!-Sparhawk

[priceless1]

Well, they hate you for at least two reasons. You proved that a company with fewer resources than PA could do legitimate publishing and succeed. You write better than Larry and Willem. ;)
LOL. Ouch.

[LloydBrown]

What does a freelancer charge to do layout only for, say, a 360-page book.

While we say that PA does nothing that you can't get at Kinko's or through Lulu, they do at least drop your manuscript text into a formatting box. For a full cost comparison to Lulu, we should consider this factor as well.

[Bonnie Gibson]

Yeah, I'd be interested to see what Ingram says about that. Someone should send them a screen shot of Infohelmet's answer about that. Especially the part where they say that "many of our titles are already returnable from the day we made the announcement"

Since WE know that Bonnie called, and that's a flat-out LIE. Wasn't she told, mid-month and just recently that NO PA titles were returnable yet?

I have found 2 that's returnable.

When I phoned Ingrams Customer Service she told me that they knew nothing of it. She offered to look up books for me if I'd give her the titles but I have that ability on Ipage.

Of course emails from PA said my emails to Ingrams were bizarre and I needed to apologize to them. (PA)

[NancyMehl]

While browsing on this thread I came across this terrible PA story:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=115273&postcount=10019

the story was so awful, with the PA author fearing destitution and homelessness, having invested $54000 in promoting his PA book, that I mailed him to ask if he is OK.


I read Larry's story...wow. Not only did he pick the wrong publisher, he learned a painful lesson - one that I am beginning to learn. He thought that most of the people who supported his cause would buy his book. Nope. As a long time book reviewer who has received dozens of thank you notes throughout the years - and as a reviewer who definitely has affected book sales in my own area - I thought that a lot of these "grateful" authors would show up to buy MY book when it came out.

Didn't happen.

At my recent local signing, exactly ONE author showed up. None of the other authors were anywhere near the bookstore.

Counting on people who know you to buy your book is a waste of time - and a huge error. That is why (I'm beginning to learn) it is so important to wait for a good publisher - one who can promote you and get you into bookstores. THAT is what will make you successful. NOT friends and family - not Internet buddies, and NOT publishers like PA.

I've decided that the NEXT publisher I get will be the right one. I'm done with small publishers who can't do the best job with my work.

(I mean it this time, Victoria.....<G>)

Nancy

[MadScientistMatt]

What does a freelancer charge to do layout only for, say, a 360-page book.

While we say that PA does nothing that you can't get at Kinko's or through Lulu, they do at least drop your manuscript text into a formatting box. For a full cost comparison to Lulu, we should consider this factor as well.

That assumes that they actually do any active layout work. If they simply convert it from a DOC file to a PDF and send it to Lightning Source, this isn't much of a comparison. While they may do a bit more - maybe a table of contents or some such - I wouldn't think comparing the job they do to what a freelance layout expert would do is a reasonable comparison.

[DeePower]

If any of you are thinking about telling the media about your PA experience, writing to the authorities, reporting descrepancies, errors, misstatements, and falsehoods about PA, now would be a good time.

Dee

[James D. Macdonald]

One would expect that, at the very least, every new release in the month of October would be returnable.

Assuming the "returnable" program exists, that is.

[Canada James]

If things did work the way they claim, can you imagine being that poor Ingram employee who has to sit on the phone, type each and every 11,000 ISBNs, and individually mark them returnable? And only having *one* day a month to go through that?

I'd hate to be the poor person at Ingram who draws the short straw that day.

And I know from my own experience with PA, they will often claim that they sent the update but "it didn't take." So they will have to try again next month.

C. James

[NancyMehl]

And I know from my own experience with PA, they will often claim that they sent the update but "it didn't take." So they will have to try again next month.

C. James

PA seems to have the worst luck, don't they? The problems are ALWAYS LS, Ingram, or Amazon. Then there is the infamous - "Your e-mail was never received." (Hand in hand with "We e-mailed you immediately. Just because you can't read invisible messages - is that OUR fault????)

Nothing every seems to go right for them. Poor, poor PA. :Shrug:

Nancy

[JennaGlatzer]

Shamelessly off-topic but I can do that because I run the joint (MWAHAHAHAHA!). Please check out www.storiesofstrength.com (http://www.storiesofstrength.com/) when you can. If you have a blog or website or e-zine, please mention this project. It's an anthology by Absolute Writers and a few famous guests, and all profits go to disaster relief charities. Several writers who participate in this thread are included in the anthology. (And Nancy Mehl's son designed the cover!)

One of our first goals is to beat Atlanta Nights' sales rank. ;) We've already raised more than $700 for disaster relief-- and we've just begun.

Back to topic: A large truck came by and snapped my cable wire a couple of days ago, rendering me Internetless for a day and a half. I spoke to ChunkyC, and he said, "Did you happen to notice if there was a PA logo on the side of that truck?" Dave's "10 enemies" list only solidifies this conspiracy theory. ;)

[Bonnie Gibson]

I have just finished checking the top ten sellers from PA. NONE is returnable yet.

Wonder what happened? :Shrug:

I know, I know! :banana:

[DeePower]

Call Ingram and find out exactly what the procedure is to change a publisher's titles from nonreturnable to returnable.

Something tells me a clerk doesn't have to sit there and change each title, one by one. I would bet all the clerk would have to do is type in the range of ISBNs from the first one assigned to a publisher to the last one.

Ingram has over a million titles in their database, I'm sure they can access each one individually but logic says they also do a group all at once. PA's publisher code in the ISBN is 4137.

Now back to work.

Dee
Over Time: Money, Love and Football all the important things in life.
http://www.OverTimeTheNovel.com

[DaveKuzminski]

Back to topic: A large truck came by and snapped my cable wire a couple of days ago, rendering me Internetless for a day and a half. I spoke to ChunkyC, and he said, "Did you happen to notice if there was a PA logo on the side of that truck?" Dave's "10 enemies" list only solidifies this conspiracy theory. ;)

Well, you did lead the list. ;)

Hmmm, wonder what they have in store for me? Make me read Meiners' book?

And yes, those books along with all their information are kept in a database. We're talking about a five minute process to build a function (if one doesn't already exist) to go in and change one field in the database. Then one more minute to test it on a dummy copy of the database. Then one more minute to update those books with a returnability factor of yes. PA's answer is a pack of lies, damn lies, and even more lies. Come on, PA, prove me wrong!

[James D. Macdonald]

As well, there are now ten names of individuals whom Larry and Willem hate rather than the eight of yore. Those names are: Jenna Glatzer, Anne Crispin, Dave Kuzminski, Dee Power, Ed Williams, Victoria Strauss, Rebecca Easton, Lynn Price, C.E. Petit, and James Macdonald.


I'm sure HapiSofi is disappointed.

Was this posted somewhere?

[mdin]

I have permission from Ed to post this:

http://p105.ezboard.com/bedandsootswritersguild

There's a forum on that link entitled "Talk to a PA employee." Ed is in contact with a person currently working at PA, and this person is answering questions left and right. The verbiage and writing style of the posts are being changed so the employee doesn't get busted, and PA is already aware of the leak, so I'm not getting anybody in trouble by posting this.

[SC Harrison]

I have permission from Ed to post this:

http://p105.ezboard.com/bedandsootswritersguild

There's a forum on that link entitled "Talk to a PA employee." Ed is in contact with a person currently working at PA, and this person is answering questions left and right. The verbiage and writing style of the posts are being changed so the employee doesn't get busted, and PA is already aware of the leak, so I'm not getting anybody in trouble by posting this.

I'm sure I'll end up sounding like a PA-loving skeptic, and I noted what you said about the rewrite, but...this does not ring true. Everything Anonymous says may be true, but I get the feeling this is not an employee. The phrase "College or University" sounds like a Brit, and most of the text sounds like the exact things some people want to hear a PA employee say. Just me thinking outloud.

[DaveKuzminski]

I've been in contact with more than one PA employee. Much of what's been stated over at Ed and Soots by that individual appears to be accurate.

James, the new list was one of the things mentioned by that individual.

[LloydBrown]

I'm sure I'll end up sounding like a PA-loving skeptic, and I noted what you said about the rewrite, but...this does not ring true. Everything Anonymous says may be true, but I get the feeling this is not an employee. The phrase "College or University" sounds like a Brit, and most of the text sounds like the exact things some people want to hear a PA employee say. Just me thinking outloud.

It's possibly real. For one, the writing style has been modified, so you can't look at exact wording. Two, an IP check would at least verify that the person is posting from the right geographic area (it could be spoofed, but I'm talking about evidence, not proof). Three, the attention to certain details is exactly the opposite of the usual PA vagueness.

I'll admit the possibility. I guess we'll have to see if we can get some specific information that can be verified through another party.

[mdin]

Yeah, I've doubted the accuracy of it as well. But I have no reason to doubt Mr. Ed Williams, and if Mr. Hamdog says he's 100% sure, then I'll believe it until I have reason to otherwise.

[SC Harrison]

It's possibly real. For one, the writing style has been modified, so you can't look at exact wording. Two, an IP check would at least verify that the person is posting from the right geographic area (it could be spoofed, but I'm talking about evidence, not proof). Three, the attention to certain details is exactly the opposite of the usual PA vagueness.

I'll admit the possibility. I guess we'll have to see if we can get some specific information that can be verified through another party.

I thought it was nice what he/she said about Sooty getting her rights back because she was growing too powerful, and her and Ed's site getting all those looks. Like I said, it's just a feeling. I know nothing. I couldn't trace an IP address if you had a gun pointed at my head and Stephen Hawking sitting in my lap, but my "hokey" detector is beeping loudly.

[Celia Cyanide]

Call Ingram and find out exactly what the procedure is to change a publisher's titles from nonreturnable to returnable.

I'll volunteer to do this, if no one else has. PM me if you would like.

[JohnJStephens]

I couldn't trace an IP address if you had a gun pointed at my head and Stephen Hawking sitting in my lap, but my "hokey" detector is beeping loudlyI think your "hokey" detector is working very well, and that Stephen Hawking should pay great attention to it. But hokey or not, the thread is still extremely interesting. If the poster is genuine, we are learning stuff about the inside of PA. Even if he is not, which is what I believe (I think I bought my "hokey" detector at the same store as you did) then the posts are still worth studying carefully.

[Peekay]

Alright, I'm convinced, Publish America/Britannica are the great Satan.

I will certainly now go to the other sites that supply me with free books and royalty cheques at no outlay from myself... oh, wait a minute, that's right!

Alright then, I'll apply to a grand old noble traditional publisher that won't look at any book that doesn't come from established authors or from a book agents that only represent estabished authors... oh dear, that's right.

Well then, I'll just apply to those small press publishers that encourage new authors and... oh, yes, I remember now. There are none.

PA/PB are perhaps taking advantage of the misery of writers but I would sugest that it is just marginaly better than having that misery compunded by being completely ignored?

At the very least the PA author can look at his or her listings on Amazon etc

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1413741061/qid=1131017740/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_8_2/026-2314373-2580430

the traditional publishers supplicant can only resign themselves to being treated like... I don't think I can say that word here can I?

At the very least my books can sit there available after my death, otherwise they die with me, in which case the effort was a true waste of time.

I was in the process of going over to PA to publish Salmagundi 2 but I am sure someone here has a much better idea where to put it, that is physically possible of course! I have already had that other suggestion from the traditional branch.

I cannot quite understand this implied belief that traditional publishers are just gasping to embrace new talent nurture them and pay them!
When does that ever happen? At least I have seen and held and loved a printed paperback book of my writing with my own ilustration upon the cover.
Going cap in hand to some traditional publisher would have merely gotten said cap filled with, oh yes, I shouldn't say that here should I?

Really, seriously, what alternatives are there?

[Christine N.]

OMG, someone ELSE who hasn't read the thread....

Ok then, #1 on your list - other sites that supply free books and royalty checks.... Behler, LBF, any other small, non-scammer publisher

#2 - well, some big houses still do see unagented manuscripts, you just have to query first, but those are becoming less and less. So get an agent

No small press publishers that encourage new writers? Oh, then my publisher is a figment of my imagination, as is Lynn's business, or any of the other small presses listed on P&E.

Of course, all these avenues actually require you to have a well written book that has to go through a selection process. That you have to work on your craft and make it the best it can be.

If you just want a book to hold - go to Lulu.

To take a page from PA's book - your last paragraph was utter nonsense. New talent is embraced and nurtured every single day at publishing houses. The trick there - write a really good book.

Like I said, one of the best alternatives is Lulu.com. Free, free free, if all you want is to hold your book. You will pay for your own copies, but then, you pay for books you buy from PA, right? Lulu will at least be cheaper/copy.

[aruna]

Alright then, I'll apply to a grand old noble traditional publisher that won't look at any book that doesn't come from established authors or from a book agents that only represent estabished authors... oh dear, that's right.



Dear Peekay, this is nonsense. You have swallowed the PA Kool aid, and are regurgitating it.

Every day of every year, new, unheard of authors are signing on with Random House, HarperCollins, Penguin and a variety of smaller publishing houses. From sea to shining sea. And that, my friend, may sound like PAspeak but this time it is the truth.

It happened to me. My part in that was to write a book they wanted.

[James D. Macdonald]

I will certainly now go to the other sites that supply me with free books and royalty cheques at no outlay from myself...

Here's a partial list to get you started:

Baker Book House www.bakerbooks.com (http://www.bakerbooks.com/)




Baker Books
Bethany House
Revell
Barbour Publishing www.barbourbooks.com (http://www.barbourbooks.com/)



Heartsong Presents
Belle Books www.bellebooks.com
(http://www.bellebooks.com/)Brilliance AudioBooks www.brillianceaudiobooks.com
(http://www.brillianceaudiobooks.com/)Broadman & Holman www.broadmanholman.com (http://www.broadmanholman.com/)
Chariot Victor
Cook Communications Ministries www.cookministries.com (http://www.cookministries.com/)
Crossings Book Club
Dorchester Publishing www.dorchesterpub.com (http://www.dorchesterpub.com/)



Leisure
Love Spell
Ellora’s Cave www.ellorascave.com (http://www.ellorascave.com/)
Granite Publishing www.granitepublishing.biz (http://www.granitepublishing.biz/)

Harlequin Enterprises www.eharlequin.com (http://www.eharlequin.com/)



Harlequin Books
HQN LUNA
Mills & Boon
MIRA
Red Dress Ink
Silhouette Books
Steeple Hill Books
HarperCollins www.harpercollins.com (http://www.harpercollins.com/)



Avon Books www.avonromance.com (http://www.avonromance.com%20/)
HarperCollins Children’s Books
Harvest House www.harvesthousepublishers.com (http://www.harvesthousepublishers.com/)
Howard Publishing www.howardpublishing.com
(http://www.howardpublishing.com/)
Kensington Publishing www.kensingtonbooks.com (http://www.kensingtonbooks.com/)



Brava Dafina Encanto Kensington Pinnacle Strapless Zebra
Zebra Regency
Kregel Publications http://kregel.gospelcom.net (http://kregel.gospelcom.net/)

Loveland Press www.lovelandpress.com
(http://www.lovelandpress.com/)
Macmillan www.mcp.com (http://www.mcp.com/)



Pan Macmillan www.panmacmillan.com (http://www.panmacmillan.com/)
St. Martin’s Press www.stmartins.com (http://www.stmartins.com/)
Tor/Forge www.tor.com (http://www.tor.com/)
Medallion Press www.medallionpress.com (http://www.medallionpress.com/)

Multnomah Publishing www.mpbooks.com
(http://www.mpbooks.com/)
Penguin Putnam www.penguinputnam.com (http://www.penguinputnam.com/)



Berkley
Dutton
G.P. Putnam’s Sons
Putnam
Jove
NAL
Onyx
Penguin
Signet
Viking
Random House Publishing www.randomhouse.com (http://www.randomhouse.com/)



Ballantine Books
Bantam
Delacorte
Dell
Doubleday
Fawcett
Ivy
Literary Guild/Doubleday Book Club
Random House
WaterBrook Press
Red Sage Publishing www.redsagepub.com
(http://www.redsagepub.com/) Severn House www.severnhouse.com (http://www.severnhouse.com/)

Simon & Schuster www.simonsays.com (http://www.simonsays.com/)



Atria
Downtown Press
Pocket Books
Simon Pulse
Thomas Bouregy & Co.



Avalon Books www.avalonbooks.com (http://www.avalonbooks.com%c2%a0/)
Thomas Nelson



W Publishing Group

http://www.thomasnelson.com/consumer/dept.asp?dept_id=250000&TopLevel_id=250000
Tyndale House www.tyndale.com (http://www.tyndale.com/)



HeartQuest
Warner Books www.twbookmark.com (http://www.twbookmark.com/)



Center Street
Warner Faith
Warner Forever
Zondervan www.zondervan.com (http://www.zondervan.com/)




(Source) (http://www.rwanational.org/industry/recog_pub_links.htm)

[Peekay]

OMG, someone ELSE who hasn't read the thread....

Well, I only got here two minutes ago!

Ok then, #1 on your list - other sites that supply free books and royalty checks.... Behler, LBF, any other small, non-scammer publisher

Behler? LBF... I will google them shortly... Yes, sent an e-mail to LBF the same day that I sent one to PA, it will be interesting to compare responses. Behler wanted such a particular and complex selection of information that I lost the will to live just reading it. Later for them when I feel better.

#2 - well, some big houses still do see unagented manuscripts, you just have to query first, but those are becoming less and less. So get an agent

I e-mailed 93 of them...
No reponses.

No small press publishers that encourage new writers? Oh, then my publisher is a figment of my imagination, as is Lynn's business, or any of the other small presses listed on P&E.

Lynna business?
Your publisher might be a figment for all I know, or are they Behler ot LBF?

Of course, all these avenues actually require you to have a well written book that has to go through a selection process. That you have to work on your craft and make it the best it can be.

You can tell just from one mail that I am a stumbling talentless fool? Really? You should work in 'traditional publishing' they can tell from a submission enguiry! Such powers.


If you just want a book to hold - go to Lulu.

Lulu don't supply free copies of the published book, and I don't pay money out to be published or receive copies.


To take a page from PA's book - your last paragraph was utter nonsense. New talent is embraced and nurtured every single day at publishing houses. The trick there - write a really good book.

Did already. Or perhaps not... how would you know?
They don;t want good boks anyway they want beetroots to sell at the fruit and veg market. there is a huge difference.

Like I said, one of the best alternatives is Lulu.com. Free, free free, if all you want is to hold your book. You will pay for your own copies, but then, you pay for books you buy from PA, right?

Wrong, I have never paid them a penny piece.

Lulu will at least be cheaper/copy.


I am not a proffessional apologist for PA!
I am sure that PA Lulu are indeed taking advantage of the misery and despair of writers, BUT WHO IS CREATING THAT MISERY AND DESPAIR???

[Peekay]

Dear Peekay, this is nonsense. You have swallowed the PA Kool aid, and are regurgitating it.

Every day of every year, new, unheard of authors are signing on with Random House, HarperCollins, Penguin and a variety of smaller publishing houses. From sea to shining sea. And that, my friend, may sound like PAspeak but this time it is the truth.

It happened to me. My part in that was to write a book they wanted.



My experiences do not bear out this theory. Most of them seem to 'not accept submissions, good or bad and many of them actually go out of their way to avoid submissions.
Harper Collins especially is one that I have investigated and tey would not accept submissions. Random House will not, PENGUIN actually laughed at me on the phone when I rang them up to enquire fr submission guidelines. The an i spoke to asked me why I was enquiring, 'was I thinking of sending them something' I replied that I was. 'Well don't.' was the response.
How that 'encourages' anyone I cannot estimate.

[LloydBrown]

Alright then, I'll apply to a grand old noble traditional publisher that won't look at any book that doesn't come from established authors or from a book agents that only represent estabished authors... oh dear, that's right.Please scan this thread http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20586

Well then, I'll just apply to those small press publishers that encourage new authors and... oh, yes, I remember now. There are none.Right. In the publishing world "We love new authors" is code for "We prey on the unaware."

At the very least the PA author can look at his or her listings on Amazon etcSo can every self-published author who goes through Lulu or Lightning Source.

the traditional publishers supplicant can only resign themselves to being treated like... I don't think I can say that word here can I?
Professionals? Even if a rejection letter is brief and impersonal, they're generally politely-worded. If you work is close enough, you get better feedback.

At the very least my books can sit there available after my death, otherwise they die with me, in which case the effort was a true waste of time.You have to consider that many books deserve exactly that. On the other hand, as has been stated at least 1,000 times in this thread, there is always Lulu.

I cannot quite understand this implied belief that traditional publishers are just gasping to embrace new talent nurture them and pay them!
Nobody implied that they were desperate for new talent. A publisher must find new talent or sales will dwindle as old talent dies off, goes elsewhere or simply stops producing. They MUST continue to seek new talent.

When does that ever happen?
Um, every day? Go to your bookstore and start reading jackets.

Really, seriously, what alternatives are there?Writing a sellable book is really the best place to start. To quote Uncle Jim: "Rejection is nature's way of telling you to write a better book."

[Richard]

Your experience is not selling a book. This does not prove impossibility. All the other books on the shelves from people you've never heard of do prove possibility.

[James D. Macdonald]

Welcome, Peekay:

Before we go much further, here are a few things you ought to read. They're all much shorter than this particular monster thread.

Slushkiller (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html)

Condensed: Here are the reasons we don't recommend PublishAmerica (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10211)

The Truth about PublishAmerica (http://www.freewebs.com/truthaboutpa/index.htm)

When you get back, I'd like to ask what your goals are: If 100% of what you want is two copies of your bound manuscript to hold in your hand at no cost to you, and you don't mind losing the rights for seven years -- well, PA is probably the right place for you.

Are you telling us that you've spent nothing whatever on your publishing adventure? Bought no copies of your own book, spent nothing on publicity and marketing? (If so, you're acting like a traditional author: Most of us don't buy copies of our own book and don't spend any money on marketing or publicity either.)

[Sheryl Nantus]

I'm a first-time published author. Sold my first book to Mundania Press back in August. Never had a book published before.

but, hey... why take my word for it? Go check out the "New Authors" Thread in the other forums to find out what publishers ARE taking on new authors.

or just waste your work on PA.

*shrugs*

[aruna]

My experiences do not bear out this theory. Most of them seem to 'not accept submissions, good or bad and many of them actually go out of their way to avoid submissions.
.

It's true they do not accept unsolicited submissions. How could they? they would be drowned in submissions if they did, at the rate that people, qualified or not, are writing book these days. It's obvious they can't say yes to every phone call.

But if you take the care to work hard at your book, polish it until it shines, and if your book is something others will want to read, then yes, you have a good chance of getting published the normal way.

But first you must research the "how to" of getting published. Of course, you can't just ring them up and expect them to say yes. Most publishers expect you to go through an agent, and an agent is what you should have looked for. And yes, finding an agent is also hard.
But then again, no one oews it to you to punlish you. It's up to you to produce a book they want, and go through the rigourous and sometimes heartbreaking process all of us did.

Yes, getting published is difficult. But who told you it was easy? You should not expect it to be as simple as making a phone call and getting a yes. That immediately singles you out as an amateur. I'm not surprised they laughed at you; it's just not done that way!

All those new published authors you see out there have learned how to get their book up to standard and how to submit it. That's how they got published.

[Peekay]

Your experience is not selling a book. This does not prove impossibility. All the other books on the shelves from people you've never heard of do prove possibility.



Actually, no, my experience is not of failing to sell a book but of being told to take a long walk off of a short pier before word one of any manuscript of mine was ever seen. A closed shop canot be submitted to. Not to be accused of vainglory, I have spent many an hour Googling for these mythical small press POD publishers and found only 'do not submit before the year 3000' and then with a covering letter stating blood group, maiden name of grandparent and a letter from the Arch Bishop of Canterbury vouching for your good character.

[LloydBrown]

Random House will not, PENGUIN actually laughed at me on the phone when I rang them up to enquire fr submission guidelines. The an i spoke to asked me why I was enquiring, 'was I thinking of sending them something' I replied that I was. 'Well don't.' was the response.
How that 'encourages' anyone I cannot estimate.

Okay, you're right. Let us rephrase. They are polite to people that follow the clearly-written black & white rules they post all over the world for people that do their research to follow. They ignore buttheads that call up on the phone despite these guidelines. You're absolutely right.

Let me guess: you don't own a copy of the Writer's Market, do you?

[LloydBrown]

Actually, no, my experience is not of failing to sell a book So you have sold a book?

A closed shop canot be submitted to.

Okay, let's go with that, then. How do you think these first-time authors get published?

[James D. Macdonald]

Let me guess: you don't own a copy of the Writer's Market, do you?

I believe Peekay's a Brit. For him, Writers' and Artists' Yearbook (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0713671734/) would be the right reference volume. His local library should have a copy.

[Peekay]

Welcome, Peekay:

Before we go much further, here are a few things you ought to read. They're all much shorter than this particular monster thread.

Slushkiller (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html)

Condensed: Here are the reasons we don't recommend PublishAmerica (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10211)

The Truth about PublishAmerica (http://www.freewebs.com/truthaboutpa/index.htm)

When you get back, I'd like to ask what your goals are: If 100% of what you want is two copies of your bound manuscript to hold in your hand at no cost to you, and you don't mind losing the rights for seven years -- well, PA is probably the right place for you.

Are you telling us that you've spent nothing whatever on your publishing adventure? Bought no copies of your own book, spent nothing on publicity and marketing? (If so, you're acting like a traditional author: Most of us don't buy copies of our own book and don't spend any money on marketing or publicity either.)




I can say that I have never sent PA any money whatsoever for any reason, although I am sure that I could have done! It is not mandatory.
I received royalty cheques and five free copies.
From Random House et al I received exactly bupkiss zip and rien. Not even civility. Not even the bare opportunity to submit anything. Talentless fool I may well be, but how would they ever know?
My only entry point is through an agent who will not accept new or unpublished autors and I can't get published without an agent but they will not accept new or unpublished autors and I can't get published without an agent etc etc ad nauseum.

I am perfectly prepared to submit otherwhere than PA!

[aruna]

I believe Peekay's a Brit. For him, Writers' and Artists' Yearbook (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0713671734/) would be the right reference volume. His local library should have a copy.

They are also available in every bookshop. That, or the Writer's Handbook. I personally prefer The Writer's Handbook.

[Peekay]

I'm a first-time published author. Sold my first book to Mundania Press back in August. Never had a book published before.

but, hey... why take my word for it? Go check out the "New Authors" Thread in the other forums to find out what publishers ARE taking on new authors.

or just waste your work on PA.

*shrugs*


I submitted to Mundania too! God alone knows how long ago now, never got a reply of any sort. How is it not a waste of work to let ones words rot on a single hard drive?

I shall certainly wander over to the new authors thread later but for now I am starting to get that old 'talking about publishers' tension headache.

[LloydBrown]

I believe Peekay's a Brit. For him, Writers' and Artists' Yearbook (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0713671734/) would be the right reference volume. His local library should have a copy.

I believe you're right; he did ring somebody inappropriately instead of calling.

For what it's worth, after this last tirade, I believe we have somebody willing and able to see the light. I can almost see him screaming at the top of his lungs at home. That's raw emotion, not deceit.

Peekay, hang in there. Follow Uncle Jim's guiding light and learn. (Remember the end of Wargames: "Learn, damn it! Learn!")

[Richard]

My only entry point is through an agent who will not accept new or unpublished autors

No, your entry point is through an agent who will. The tricky part is that accepting new and unpublished authors doesn't automatically mean you*, and the rejection letters will likely look the same.

(* Not you personally, the more open-ended type)

[Peekay]

I believe Peekay's a Brit. For him, Writers' and Artists' Yearbook (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0713671734/) would be the right reference volume. His local library should have a copy.


I am really truly and genuinely sorry! But do you realise how pollyannish this all sounds? I might as well stuff manuscripts down the back of an old sofa and set fire to it then send it to sit in a slush pile for two years and in addition be mocked online (In hilarious authors are retarded fools website) by the companys functionaries for my efforts.

[Sheryl Nantus]

*shrug*

we're giving you examples of first-time authors being published and how they went about doing it.

if you refuse the facts, well... nothing much more needs to be said. It's happening and just because it's not happening to YOU doesn't mean that it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world.

and as far as PA goes - you'd be better off going to your local copy shop and running off a few volumes of your esteemed tome and selling them on the corner from a table.

[aruna]

I
My only entry point is through an agent who will not accept new or unpublished autors and I can't get published without an agent but they will not accept new or unpublished autors and I can't get published without an agent etc etc ad nauseum.

!

Nonsense again,. I personaly know of three new writers who have been taken on by good agents in Britain in the last six months, and subsequently found a publisher.
Two things are necessary in order to find an agent:

a) A salable book
b) a professional appropach (ie research which agent suits you, query letter, partial mauscript etc etc.) Many have gone this route before, and succeeded. Like punlishers, agents also need new authors to keep going. But it;s true they don't take anyone.
It's a competetive world. That doesn't mean it's impossible to get in. But you must do it the right way, and act like a professional.

[aruna]

I am really truly and genuinely sorry! But do you realise how pollyannish this all sounds? I might as well stuff manuscripts down the back of an old sofa and set fire to it then send it to sit in a slush pile for two years and in addition be mocked online (In hilarious authors are retarded fools website) by the companys functionaries for my efforts.

This is someone we are wasting time an denergy on. He/she does not want to listen.

[Peekay]

No, your entry point is through an agent who will. The tricky part is that accepting new and unpublished authors doesn't automatically mean you*, and the rejection letters will likely look the same.

(* Not you personally, the more open-ended type)


What is an open ended author?

I have a new trick going at the moment, a friend, currenty unemployed like myself but unlike myself extremely plausible and charming.
He is pretending to be a book agent and sending out the manuscript to my magnum opus, actually, as I promised him an agents commision I suppose he IS an agent.
And the publishers? They are talking to him, or more to the point his faked up headed notepaper!
I suppose he just does a good 'lunch'.
It is a little self referring world that takes note only of appearances.

[Richard]

Open-ended, as in 'it's a writer thing' not 'I'm picking on you'.

Although that trick you just posted can in no way be described as 'new' without Trading Standards turning up. It's also pretty much guaranteed to make you look like a fool if and when you get discovered - which unless the guy knows the intricacies of publishing and entertainment contact law is really more a question of the 'when'.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Open-ended, as in 'it's a writer thing' not 'I'm picking on you'.

Although that trick you just posted can in no way be described as 'new' without Trading Standards turning up. It's also pretty much guaranteed to make you look like a fool if and when you get discovered,

more likely "when" - stunts don't get you an agent or a publisher, just plain oldfashioned good writing.

go figure, eh?

:)

[mistri]

Peekay, getting published is not easy, but it's not impossible with the right book.

When I worked for Mills & Boon, I personally read, loved and bought four books by four new authors, who'd all approached the company unagented (and none had been published before). Now you might not write romance, but the point is that you can find companies who are looking for new writers.

Many don't accept unagented ones, but you then just look for an agent. This too, is not easy (I'm trying to look for one myself at the moment), but most (in the UK) are willing to see a synopsis and three chapters.

Speaking as a cranky editor, I hated getting phone calls from would-be authors. I shouldn't have done, but I'm just not a phone person. You may find approaching people in writing works better.

ETA: When we got agented submissions, I would google/research the names I didn't recognise, so making up an agency isn't recommended. Bad agents can be worse than none at all. One guy would send in several submissions a week, all totally unsuitable. So though he was an agent, I'd look at his submissions even after all the unagented ones.

[Christine N.]

Ok, yes, it takes a LONG time to hear back from some publishers. I will certainly give you that. I think the wait time at Tor for unsolicited manuscripts stands at one year.

It's worth it.

I read into your posts this defeatists' attitude - I can't find any! Wah! No, just dig deeper. I found my publisher by accident, they had been mentioned on this board. Before that, I spent days researching small publishers, going through the lists of pubs on P&E - clicking, checking sub guidlines, checking references.

If you want your book to go to the top (as in big houses), then you need an agent. However, it is possible to get published in a legitimate market without them. The key here is to write a book (and do it WELL) that other people want to read. That's important. Just because you, your mom and your Aunt Sally think your work is the greatest thing since the Bible, doesn't mean that it really is. Honest... and this is no judgement against your work, I'm speaking in the general, global 'you'. Having never read your work, I can't say whether it's good or bad. Neither can PA - they didn't read it either.



PS - you think this 'poster' is drawing us away from the previous discussion about Ed's board and the PA mole?? The timing seems to be a huge coincidence. But that could just be the conspiracy theorist in me. If not, I apologize.

[Peekay]

Nonsense again,. I personaly know of three new writers who have been taken on by good agents in Britain in the last six months, and subsequently found a publisher.
Two things are necessary in order to find an agent:

a) A salable book
b) a professional appropach (ie research which agent suits you, query letter, partial mauscript etc etc.) Many have gone this route before, and succeeded. Like punlishers, agents also need new authors to keep going. But it;s true they don't take anyone.
It's a competetive world. That doesn't mean it's impossible to get in. But you must do it the right way, and act like a professional.


Writing is not just a job, it used to also be an 'art form'.
If people write from within, out of urgent need, not to be 'salable' then they are to be dismissed out of hand?'

No other art form is so utterly supine to its means of propogation than writing. No art gallery woud even think to dictate to its painters in the way that publishers do to writers whom they show every indication of holding in searing contempt. Where is there a website dedicated to Gallery owners showing off the hilariously awful submissions of artists?

[James D. Macdonald]

I do hope your friend knows how to read and negotiate a contract, should one ever appear.

Are you aware that there's a category of slush called "agented slush"?

I really find the idea that you sent out 93 e-mail queries and got no answers whatever ... astounding. Have you checked to make sure that the "reply to" address in your email program is correct?

Is there any particular reason you limited yourself to emailing agents? A paper query letter with a self-addressed stamped envelope will usually get better responses, and not all agents take email queries.

You might want to drop over to one of the other boards here to tweak your query letter before you try again.

I found this bit amazing:

Behler wanted such a particular and complex selection of information that I lost the will to live just reading it. Later for them when I feel better.

First, why were you considering Behler at all? Their guidelines state: "We accept submissions only from writers living in the U.S." Is this you?

But the "particular and complex selection of information" is:



Title, genre, estimated word count, and a detailed two page synopsis of your book (No chapter summaries)
Brief author biography, including any previous publications, or specific background/qualifications relevant to your work
A comparative relationship to other titles: what other books compare and compete with yours?
A self-addressed, stamped business envelope, or a self-addressed, stamped mailer if you would like your materials to be returned. (for mailed queries only)

That doesn't strike me as either particularly unusual, nor particularly onerous.

[mistri]

I believe that most publishers *don't* hold writers in contempt.

The thing is that no writer can write forever (death takes us all in the end, but if it doesn't come first, some people stop writing or move to other publishers) and so publishers really do need new blood. But as they have to make money from what they publish, they have to be very selective about what they take.

It's a horrible process and all I can advise, is to send stuff off and then start something new while you're waiting for a response. You'll get better with each book (at least that's what I find), so are hopefully increasing your chances of reaching publication. It's tempting to give in and send a MS to somewhere that will definitely take it (PA, for example), but by doing that you have no proof that someone, somewhere, thought your story was good. Doesn't mean it's bad, but doesn't mean it's good, either.

[Richard]

Writing is not just a job, it used to also be an 'art form'.
If people write from within, out of urgent need, not to be 'salable' then they are to be dismissed out of hand?'

Writing is an art, publishing is a business. If you want to appeal to companies whose job is to sell books, and this definitely covers the big names you've mentioned, you need to give them a book they can sell. This isn't a conspiracy, it's common sense.

Where is there a website dedicated to Gallery owners showing off the hilariously awful submissions of artists?

I believe it's www.tate.org.uk/modern/

[Peekay]

Open-ended, as in 'it's a writer thing' not 'I'm picking on you'.

Although that trick you just posted can in no way be described as 'new' without Trading Standards turning up. It's also pretty much guaranteed to make you look like a fool if and when you get discovered - which unless the guy knows the intricacies of publishing and entertainment contact law is really more a question of the 'when'.


It is harldy illegal to pretend to be an Authors Agent!
They don't take an exam to become one after all, all you need is a word processor. As for the legal side there are a plethora of sites online with sample contracts etc which we may copy off.
And in any case, if he is working with the promise of agents commission then he IS an agent is he not?
Agents do not spring fully formed from the forehead of Zeus after all, they have to start somewhere. At the moment he merely looks and sounds like a lit. agent, as soon as he sells one book he IS one.
At the moment, after two or three months, the publishers can't tell the difference.

[mistri]

Agents generally start agenting with some experience in contracts and/or book publishing. Editors respect or at least listen to agents who've proved themselves by submitting fantastic material. An agent does this because their experience enables them to separate those submissions that are salable from those which are boring or just plain awful.

Someone who just sets themselves up as an agent with a word processor and nothing else is unlikely to impress anyone.

[Richard]

Agents do not spring fully formed from the forehead of Zeus after all

No, they generally get trained by other agents and go solo with an existing Filofax full of contacts and clients.

It is harldy illegal to pretend to be an Authors Agent!

I didn't say illegal, I said it will make you look like a fool. As the man said, what's the only thing worse than no agent? A bad agent. One who thinks that dressing in a suit and using headed notepaper is enough to play the part, but has no experience with entertainment contracts and law, industry standard practices, negotiation, contacts, or any of the other things that agents give you for their 15% isn't merely worse than having no agent, it's worse than having a poo into an SAE and mailing it to an acquisitions editor with your business card.

[SC Harrison]

Peekay, have you already signed with PA/PB? If so, are you merely attempting to justify your actions?

I can't find it, but you really need to check out James' thread where he published a book, start to finish, on a Sunday. He did it through Lulu all by himself, and he didn't pay anybody a dime.

I do want to clear up an inccuracy that was stated earlier in the Peekay chronicles. Going the free (up front) route with Lulu will not get you listed on Amazon, B&N, Ingrams etc., but people will be able to order direct from Lulu.

[James D. Macdonald]

Peekay, have you already signed with PA/PB? If so, are you merely attempting to justify your actions?

Yeah -- his book came out last January.

Here's Everything You Wanted To Know About Literary Agents (http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/2005/01/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about.asp)

Here's the thread where I put out a book in an afternoon for free (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4279&page=2&pp=25). So far it's sold three copies (http://www.lulu.com/content/132312) (none to me).

[postshy]

being suspicious again. Ed and Soots forum is hilarious. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. Thanks for posting the link, X. Whether the PA employee is genuine or not does not bother me, since PA uses these tactics on this Board all the time. Pretending to be someone else achieves a purpose here - it takes us off topic. There it draws in more readers who will eventually learn some cold, hard facts. It works in both places.

I am here to help newbies and wannabees like everyone else, but I only jump in to post when I notice discrepancies. Without calling any names, I do notice that certain posters write very good English and then, several posts later, the English suddenly deteriorates. It is almost as if several people are using "drop down remarks":) and the same name. I could be wrong and, if so, apologies.

However, PA's weasel wording and lies are at question here with regard to "RETURNS". It is November, PA, and some of us are not as gullible as we used to be. Quit the "Halloween laughter" and give Bonnie some answers. We are all waiting with bated breath, including those you have conned into buying 40 or so books.

To our new poster(?) who is questioning the chances of being accepted by a legitimate publisher, I would just like to say "I understand" your problem. I am a PA author facing the same difficulties, but would I choose PA's "Kiss of Death" for my book ever again? No! No! No!

If you are running into constant rejections, you keep trying, or accept the fact that you are not writing what today's market wants. That does not mean you are a poor writer, although you really should learn the Queen's English first.

However, it's PA we are after, not you, and we are going to get them. I love the smell of defeat in the air.

postshy/Roberta

[Susan Gable]

To see that the "closed" publishers are not as closed as the PAers would like you to think, please see my newest First Sales thread in the romance section of the board:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=383690#post383690

I'd be pretty safe to say that some of those were unagented sales. In any event, even if they were all agented, it goes to show that you first-timers CAN find agents, too.

Susan G.

[Bufty]

PA Board - and.. how do I make my book end up on the bookshelves of B and N stores?

Infocentre will answer that one, I'm sure.

[grommet]

I'm a looooong time lurker who wanted to pop in to answer Peekay's concerns with my own data. Peekay: I have no contacts and had no professional sales. This past June I signed with an agent at a top agency and this week I got a two book deal at a major commercial publisher. How did I do it? I wrote a book five years ago and started querying agents. When no one took me on, I took a good long look at that book and realized it may not be the masterwork I thought it was. I decided to set that book aside and write another one. I joined a critique group. I read everything I could about the publishing business. I started the process again, only this time I had a better book, a stronger query, and greater awareness of how the business works.

Btw: I want to offer my kudos to everyone on this thread. I've lurked here since its inception and I'm constantly amazed by the generosity and intelligence displayed here. I became interested in PA after a dear friend signed with them (long before much info was available on the net). I have watched him go from ecstasy over being published to agony that his work wasn't selling and that his publisher wasn't what he thought it was. This experience has, sadly, stripped him of his love of writing and his confidence in his abilities. This business is hard on the ego as it is and I hate knowing that a company exists that preys on people's dreams.


Grommet

[Jean Marie]

[QUOTE=Jean Marie]
. The sad part is that's what PA does to people. Some never get over what's happened to them and carry their bitterness, lashing out whenever they can; unable to forgive.



[QUOTE=Bee Bomb]Yes, you are right about the strain PublishAmerica puts on the passionate writer, the writer whose life blood is spilled with pen and paper. It is exteremly hard to overcome the concrete barricade of being published by PublishAmerica. Hang in there, Momwrites, together...we can be the author we dream of being. WE CAN DO THIS!



This sounds like more of the Author Role-Playing Game to me. As Stephen King writes eloquently about in On Writing, it's important to take the work seriously, but not yourself. Being a professional writer means being willing to accept that frequent rejection is part of the business.

I'm for getting mad and even, but not for making being scammed your identity.

It's not. Only you would read it that way. Not surprised though. My identity is = to that of moving on w/ my life. However, I will continue to share my story w/ others in order to help. That's what I'm about; sharing my experience in the hopes that what I have to say about the evil ways of PA will be heard by enough aspiring authors to prevent them from signing their heart away.

In short, I have the choice to turn a nasty negative into a positive. It's up to whoever reads these boards to interpret what's said however they please. I choose to turn it into a positive, that's my identity. Rather, it's part of who I am. I'm also an author, published for the very first time in Stories of Strength. And quite honored to be among some well known names as well as other new authors. That's who I am.

[Dawno]

Yeah -- his book came out last January.

Here's Everything You Wanted To Know About Literary Agents (http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/2005/01/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about.asp)

Here's the thread where I put out a book in an afternoon for free (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4279&page=2&pp=25). So far it's sold three copies (http://www.lulu.com/content/132312) (none to me).

And I bought two of them. They're very nicely done.

[Sparhawk]

I have sent them my manuscript and it is being considered. Jacqueline Druga-Marchetti from LBF has been extrememly cordial and helpful and has taken the time to E-Mail me several times. Things are looking good and I am hopeful. I have nothing but praise for LBF and how I have been treated. It's a breath of fresh air compared to the stink of raw sewage that is Publish America.

-Sparhawk

[aruna]

I'm a looooong time lurker who wanted to pop in to answer Peekay's concerns with my own data. Peekay: I have no contacts and had no professional sales. This past June I signed with an agent at a top agency and this week I got a two book deal at a major commercial publisher. How did I do it? I wrote a book five years ago and started querying agents. When no one took me on, I took a good long look at that book and realized it may not be the masterwork I thought it was. I decided to set that book aside and write another one. I joined a critique group. I read everything I could about the publishing business. I started the process again, only this time I had a better book, a stronger query, and greater awareness of how the business works.



Grommet

Hi Grommet, and welcome!
My story's a lot like yours. I also spent four or five years on a book that never got published, even though I had an agent for it and it was sent around to all the publishing houses in Britain! However, when it didn't work I just figured that the book wasn't good enough, and started another. I had learned so much through writing the first one that the second one was a breeze, and found a publisher straight away.

It's hard for authors to accept that their book may be beloved to them, but that perhaps it just doesn't have what it takes to be commercially published. We believe with all our hearts in our books. Yet sometimes, it's just right to say goodbye, and start again. Whatever - I'm glad I didn't send it to PA as a last resort. My next book was MUCH better, and finding a publisher was easy.

And to Peekay I'd like to say that "art" is a suspect word. Who's to say what art is? I've read a lot of trash - in my eyes - whose authors thought they'd written high art. Publishers are under no obligation to put such books out into the world. Publishing is a business.

But my books - and I believe most of the books written by the authors here - do come from the inside and are written with passion and feeling. That's why agents, publishers, and lastly readers like to read them.

[rekirts]

Why do so many people think becoming a commercially published author should be easier than anything else worthwhile? If you decide to become a doctor you don't just go to medical school and come out as an MD without putting in tremendous effort. Very few who apply for medical school are accepted, and of those who are, many don't make it through.

Just imagine the PA equivalent for all those medical school rejected people who just want to be given a chance. :scared: GAH! Doesn't bear thinking about!

[SC Harrison]

[QUOTE=postshy]being suspicious again. Ed and Soots forum is hilarious. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. Thanks for posting the link, X. Whether the PA employee is genuine or not does not bother me, since PA uses these tactics on this Board all the time. Pretending to be someone else achieves a purpose here - it takes us off topic. There it draws in more readers who will eventually learn some cold, hard facts. It works in both places.

Entertaining or not, this site (AW) is supposed to be a haven of truth and objectivity. To imply that (possibly) deceptive behavior is acceptable because of other deceptive behavior is a recipe for loss of credibility and integrity. In your fight against PA (and others), these are traits which cannot be taken for granted and, once lost, are extremely difficult to recover.

To demand proof of something you don't believe in, while casually accepting the veracity of something you want to hear, may eventually reduce the traffic at AW (NEPAT) to a trickle of conspiracy theorists.

[Bonnie Gibson]

Here's another... Wonder what would be so hard as to copy and paste a list of the one's ALREADY returnable, to me? Could it be there is no list?

:Guitar: Same old music!

Dear Ms. Gibson,

As the list for returnable PublishAmerica books is constantly changing, It would be quite difficult to provide you with a copy. Separately, when ordering from Ingram, they will list the returnability status of a book. Thank you for understanding. Have a nice morning!

Thank You,
Jessica
Author Support Team
Support@PublishAmerica.com



From: "Bonnie Gibson" <jon_bon@bellsouth.net>

To: "PublishAmerica Author Support" <Jessica@PublishAmerica.com>
Subject: returnable books
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:32:16 -0600
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.84, clamav-milter version 0.84e on pa-mail.publishamerica.com
X-Virus-Status: Clean

Jessica, could you please tell me the titles of all the returnable books?


Bonnie Gibson

[James D. Macdonald]

Something struck me from the list of first sales that Susan linked to:

Viva was the fourth full ms completed before she sold

This was her second full ms completed before selling.

Dark Desires was the third full ms completed before selling.

This was the 20th full-length ms she completed before selling.

This was the fourth full-length ms she completed before selling.

What does that suggest? That you need to learn the craft.

Nothing teaches you more about writing a novel than writing a novel.

[DaveKuzminski]

Dear Ms. Gibson,

As the list for returnable PublishAmerica books is constantly changing, It would be quite difficult to provide you with a copy. Separately, when ordering from Ingram, they will list the returnability status of a book. Thank you for understanding. Have a nice morning!

Thank You,
Jessica
Author Support Team
Support@PublishAmerica.com (Support@PublishAmerica.com)

Of course, it's difficult. Larry marks a book as returnable and then passes it on to Willem for review and Willem marks it as non-returnable. When books are routed the opposite direction, Willem marks them as returnable and Larry marks them as non-returnable. That is why the list "is constantly changing". You just have to know how to read PA's words to understand PA's real meaning. ;)

[Susan Gable]

As the list for returnable PublishAmerica books is constantly changing, It would be quite difficult to provide you with a copy.



Soooo, does that mean that a book might be returnable on Monday, but not on Tuesday? So, if the bookstore buys the book on Monday and returns it on Monday, that's okay, but if they wait until Tuesday to try to and return it, it's too late? What kind of nonsense is changing the status? Why would this list change? It should only GET BIGGER, not change.

Oh, wait. I forgot this was PA we're talking about. <sigh>

Susan G.

[James D. Macdonald]

Jessica, could you please tell me the titles of all the returnable books?



There's your mistake, Bonnie. You should have asked "could you please tell me the names of any returnable books?"

[Susan Gable]

What does that suggest? That you need to learn the craft.

Nothing teaches you more about writing a novel than writing a novel.

That's for sure. It is VERY, VERY rare to see "This was first complete ms she'd written" in any of those reports. Every once in a great while, it happens. But often the truth is that even though it was a first completed ms, the thing had been rewritten and rewritten and rewritten.

Most first mss are better left unpublished. <G> I know mine was. :)

Susan G.

[Dhewco]

. . . is this 'established' writer nonsense that keeps coming out. Debut authors get published all the time. Writer's Digest lists at least two to three every month.

Every legitimately published author has been a debut and unknown author. (The exception to the unknown are celebs, heroes, infamous criminals, and politicians---otherwise known as famous criminals---). LOL

It drives me crazy to hear the same thing over and over.

David

[Jean Marie]

. . . is this 'established' writer nonsense that keeps coming out. Debut authors get published all the time. Writer's Digest lists at least two to three every month.

Every legitimately published author has been a debut and unknown author. (The exception to the unknown are celebs, heroes, infamous criminals, and politicians---otherwise known as famous criminals---). LOL

It drives me crazy to hear the same thing over and over.

David
I don't understand: PA is not a publisher, they're a printer. So, being printed by them means absolutely nothing. I mean, you're a debut printee? Is that what you're referring to?

[Dhewco]

No, Jean Marie. I was referring to all the writers who drudge up the "publishers don't go with new writers, only established writers" excuse as to why they go with POD/vanity publishers.

I was simply pointing out that it was not true. Debut authors get published all the time.

And, I'm not published yet. But I will be. If it's not the novel I'm currently shopping around, it will be the next. Or the one after that, or the one....well, you get the point.


David


PS. This point goes not only to those authors with PA, but any vanity publisher. To the Lurkers, Don't allow frustration of being rejected multiple times to cause you to settle for a pay publisher.

[postshy]

I think I need to clarify my statements a bit. Not for one moment am I saying that we should not speak the truth here, or there. What I am saying is that, in spite of people who join the Boards, just to make trouble and not necessarily help the cause, their lies do nothing more than have the opposite effect. They may throw this forum off topic for a while, but it stimulates traffic as people start reading and posting cold, hard facts.

The same thing applies on Ed and Soot's forum. If someone is just aping a PA employee, then it is still serving the purpose because people jump on board to either agree or refute what they are saying - kind of like what "sock puppet" does sometimes.

However, I am not implying that lying should be condoned
by genuine posters. We know that it may be a tool used by the enemy, but we should not let them achieve their purpose. I am certainly not calling the regulars liars, or advocating that they should lie.

Did I clarify that, or muddy the water even more?:)

postshy/Roberta

[Sparhawk]

I cannot fathom any reason for Ed Williams to fabricate and then promote having a PA employee as a source if it wasn't true. Such deceit opens up too big a can of worms and would call into mind his veracity and integrity as well as forever damn the site he and Sooty have worked so hard to build.

Now to be be totally forthcoming, both people are dear friends of mine. I'm a tad irked that their integrity and honesty would be challenged especially when they aren't here to defend themselves. If you doubt Ed and Sooty, doubt them privately not publicly or go on their site and challenge them directly.

I understand the concern about maintaining the integrity of Absolute Write as an impartial source for both PA and non PA writers, but let us not call into question another sites content as suspicious or "Hokey" unless we too are in full command of the facts. Absolute Write has been and always will be an open, honest and factual arena of ideas, not merely because of the posters, but because the people who run and maitain this site will ensure the integrity of the content.

I am confident that the Ed's site maintains just as high a degree of integrity as is maintained here. To imply otherwise without specific proof is both dishonorable and disingenuous.

[priceless1]

From Peekay: Behler wanted such a particular and complex selection of information that I lost the will to live just reading it. Later for them when I feel better.
Peekay, my response to your email wasn't steeped in confusing rhetoric. I think our guidelines are stated very clearly, as were my requests for information that you failed to include. If this is too large an effort, perhaps you need to consider the strength of your desire for publication. If you find my desire for simple details onerous, the editing process would more than likely put you in the hospital.
That doesn't strike me as either particularly unusual, nor particularly onerous.
Thank you, Jim.

My point in responding to this post isn't to put Peekay on the hot seat but to communicate to those who are new at the query process that it's vital to view the query process as they would a job. Many PA/firstime authors don't know how the submission process works and this presents a huge disadvantage in the construction of their query letters. Put your best foot forward by researching the AW boards and other writers groups. This site, alone, is a wealth of information and there are many people willing to offer help to those willing to do the research. In fact, I don't think there is a nicer bunch of people than writers, regardless of their success. They're the only group I know of who don't hoard their knowledge, but offer it freely. Careful reading and a professional query is simply good business sense.

[Bonnie Gibson]

There's your mistake, Bonnie. You should have asked "could you please tell me the names of any returnable books?"

But I doubt it would have changed anything coming from them.

They would have said:

Each day hundreds of Publishamerica books become returnable from sea to shinning sea. We are working with Ingrams to make this happen. It would be difficult to send you a copy since Publishamerica returnability list is changing from day to day. When ordering from Ingram it will list the returnability of the books.

You bet it will! NON-RETURNABLE!

[Peekay]

And to Peekay I'd like to say that "art" is a suspect word. Who's to say what art is? I've read a lot of trash - in my eyes - whose authors thought they'd written high art. Publishers are under no obligation to put such books out into the world. Publishing is a business.

But my books - and I believe most of the books written by the authors here - do come from the inside and are written with passion and feeling. That's why agents, publishers, and lastly readers like to read them.[/QUOTE]


'Art' may be a suspect word but even more so is 'product'.
Almost no other art form is so interfered with as writing before it reaches the audience. No other art form suffers from such a vast weight of predetermined rules and regulations.

Paintings are not repainted by gallery owners before they are hung on the walls and gallery owners do not dictate in advance what the wrk is to look like!
Gallery owners talk to artists quite happily, unlike publishers who have to have a nice wall of agents between them.
There is no such thing as a fine artists agent, artists wander into galleries with slides and are seen, gallery owners actually go out to student shows to see work.
There are easily as many painters as there are writers but a gulf of difference in how they are treated.
A commercial artist can just ring a publisher for an appointment to show his work. A writer may not. Not without being vilified for it at any rate.

[Peekay]

Agents generally start agenting with some experience in contracts and/or book publishing. Editors respect or at least listen to agents who've proved themselves by submitting fantastic material. An agent does this because their experience enables them to separate those submissions that are salable from those which are boring or just plain awful.

Someone who just sets themselves up as an agent with a word processor and nothing else is unlikely to impress anyone.


Luckily for me my 'agent' is indeed touting a most fantastic work! And they certainly haven't even come close to rumbling him so far. He's been out having drinkies with some of them. Right accent, right clothes, plausible manner... it's all you need. That and wonderful product of course!

[James D. Macdonald]

That and wonderful product of course!

Do let us know when it sells.

[Peekay]

Peekay, my response to your email wasn't steeped in confusing rhetoric. I think our guidelines are stated very clearly, as were my requests for information that you failed to include. If this is too large an effort, perhaps you need to consider the strength of your desire for publication. If you find my desire for simple details onerous, the editing process would more than likely put you in the hospital.

Thank you, Jim.

My point in responding to this post isn't to put Peekay on the hot seat but to communicate to those who are new at the query process that it's vital to view the query process as they would a job. Many PA/firstime authors don't know how the submission process works and this presents a huge disadvantage in the construction of their query letters. Put your best foot forward by researching the AW boards and other writers groups. This site, alone, is a wealth of information and there are many people willing to offer help to those willing to do the research. In fact, I don't think there is a nicer bunch of people than writers, regardless of their success. They're the only group I know of who don't hoard their knowledge, but offer it freely. Careful reading and a professional query is simply good business sense.



I'm sorry, what response to my e-mail??? I didn't send them one! I sent the other company, LBF a nice mail teling them about my magnum opus. As yet no response. PA, who I mailed at the same time, have already responded.

[aruna]

A painting cannot be compared with a book. A gallery owner can take one glance ata painting and know whether it fits or not. To read a manuscipt takes hours and days.

I don't really know much about the art world but I doubt if anybody can simply call up a gallery owner and ask him to look at their work, and he says yes immediately. Surely they too, have some sort of screening process, to weed out the wannabes from the talented.

[latichever]

Alright then, I'll apply to a grand old noble traditional publisher that won't look at any book that doesn't come from established authors or from a book agents that only represent estabished authors... oh dear, that's right.

I cannot quite understand this implied belief that traditional publishers are just gasping to embrace new talent nurture them and pay them!
When does that ever happen?

Really, seriously, what alternatives are there?

I'll chime in here along with the others.

I have never published a book. Although I have some respectable writing credits, I am definitely not an established author.

Despite this supposed impediment, I have representation from a top-notch agent who is confident of selling my book to a "noble traditional publisher."

My story is not at all unusual, regardless of what PA says. It's not easy to break-through, yes, but not at all impossible. Work hard. PA is the easy way to nowhere.

[Peekay]

Is there any particular reason you limited yourself to emailing agents?


The received wisdom was, and apparently still is, that this was the correct
thing for a good and well behaved writer to do.
It was some time ago... and I have changed e- mail programs since, but unless all of them are taking three years to repy then no. An amazing percentage were dead links though.


A paper query letter with a self-addressed stamped envelope will usually get better responses, and not all agents take email queries.


I get depressed just thinking about it! I have rarely sent paper copies of anythong anywhere. Too depressing, too slow, too expensive too soul destroying too... just too really.



I found this bit amazing:



First, why were you considering Behler at all? Their guidelines state: "We accept submissions only from writers living in the U.S." Is this you?


No. That is part of the particular and complex information I suppose, given the wonders of e-mail what the devil does the nationality of the author matter?


I have seen the most astonishing prequisites from publishers, asking blood type, inside leg measurement... do not send manuscripts unless they are in Helvitica italic, purple and there is a 'j' in the month.

[DeePower]

Have you noticed how every time PA is called accountable-- their latest "Yes our books would, if only they could, be returnable, but they're not so they won't be returnable unless of course they are. Then they will be." that we get a new poster who tries very hard to get the topic side tracked?

Here is a paraphrased request by a PA author to PA

Your email said "all books will be returnable October", when I called the person I spoke to said next month - November. Why did your email say October?

Their reply:

Dear PA Author:

"In your email you said ALL books will be returnable October"

Please read more carefully next time. No, our message did not say that.

Have a nice day.

Thank You,
PublishAmerica
Author Support Team

So the PA author follows up with the following reply (paraphrased)


The email you sent to the authors and the page on your site, "Therefore, as of October 2005, we are making ALL of our books returnable!"

How could 'I' read it wrong?

I believe the issue is clearly addressed by paragraph 6, please tell me, is XXXX returnable or not?

I also understand where it says, "Please bear with us as we must do this gradually, etc." but October is October and what you said Is " Therefore, as of October 2005, we are making ALL of our books returnable!"

and PA's response:


Dear PA author:

Your message is nonsensical. Please re-read the only part that you
got right: "Please bear with us as we must do this gradually".

Have a nice day.http://www.websitetoolbox.com/images/boards/smilies/rofl.gif

Thank You,
PublishAmerica
Author Support Team
amandan@publishamerica.com (amandan@publishamerica.com)



There you have it.

Dee

[Peekay]

A painting cannot be compared with a book. A gallery owner can take one glance ata painting and know whether it fits or not. To read a manuscipt takes hours and days.

I don't really know much about the art world but I doubt if anybody can simply call up a gallery owner and ask him to look at their work, and he says yes immediately. Surely they too, have some sort of screening process, to weed out the wannabes from the talented.


I have never known any gallery owner refuse to look at slides and very often there and then at the table. That's why they have light boxes after all.
Publishers have frequently stated that they can 'read the first five words and intuit interest or not' or some such vaunt. I have actually heard one state that he will not read manuscripts that are held by a aper clip. But in the surrent climate I suppose that this too is emmiently reasonable and not some bizarre form of compulsion syndrome.

[Peekay]

Do let us know when it sells.



I shall certainly mention it!

We do have another equally scurrilous scheme for seeing print despite the guardians of the readings publics continual vigilance but of that I dare not speak. I wish we did live in a nice little world where nice little writers can contact the friendly publisher and get their just desserts but I think it is going to take a little more than that.
I have written nine books in the past ten years or so, I must have got some little bit of one of them right if only by accident!

[allenparker]

Peekay, my response to your email wasn't steeped in confusing rhetoric. I think our guidelines are stated very clearly, as were my requests for information that you failed to include. If this is too large an effort, perhaps you need to consider the strength of your desire for publication. If you find my desire for simple details onerous, the editing process would more than likely put you in the hospital.

snipped for brevity...

Having queried Lynn on two occasions, I have not found her information much different to other companies, with the exception that I have gotten good feedback from her and believe that she genuinely cares about what she is doing.

Count your blessings that you have a publisher here that will take a moment to talk with us without restricting her availability to us.

From all I can see and tell, Lynn runs a good operation. Perhaps one of my queries will fhelp my manuscrript find a home there, but if she rejects all of my stuff, I will still respect her. We may also disagree on certain points, but it is always an agreeable discussion.

To make a long story short, Lynn is one of the few directly accessible publishers around. If I can get through, anyone can.

Allen

[postshy]

To clarify even further. What I found hilarious about Ed and Soots' Forum was the statement that PA employees use a "drop down menu" for their "tone" letters. I am not questioning who made the statement, but as the recipient of many "tone" letters, I find it hilarious that they do so. They cannot even use the "drop downs" correctly so as a result their "tone" letters are often "incoherent" - their favourite word.

If both of you had been around long enough, you would know that I was one of the first to fly to Ed's defence a long time ago when he posted on this Board and someone misunderstood something he said. I am an admirer of his. He was always a straight shooter. I would not criticize Sootie because I do not know her.

I simply meant that whether or not there are impostors on either Board is not a factor. Facts speak for themselves. I liked Ed and Soot's Board and had been looking for the link when X Navigator posted it.

Peace, brothers, I am not the enemy. Next time I will try to be more careful not in what I say, but in how I say it.

Now to get back on topic. I have on file an e-mail, dated September 14.2005, from PA that says and I quote:
"Therefore, as of next month, we are making all of our books returnable!"

Please note, PA lurkers, that would mean that in October all books became returnable, or PA lies. Take your choice.

postshy/Roberta

[aruna]

I have never known any gallery owner refuse to look at slides and very often there and then at the table. That's why they have light boxes after all.
.

SO if I were to call up a gallery owner tomorrow and say I have some slides/paintings I'd like to show him, he;d just say, great come along?

Publishers have frequently stated that they can 'read the first five words and intuit interest or not' or some such vaunt. I have actually heard one state that he will not read manuscripts that are held by a aper clip. But in the surrent climate I suppose that this too is emmiently reasonable and not some bizarre form of compulsion syndrome.

That's quite true. Often, an editor can tell from the first couple paragraphs, or even words, that a manuscript it NOT for her; some are so badly written is obvious. They simply have an eye for it, just as an electrician or a doctor may be able to diagnise what's wrong just from one small detail that may escape the eyes of a layman. Yet to accept a manuscript that begins promisingly an editor does have to read the whole thing. Editors get hundreds of manuscripts a week. Think about that for a while, and put ytourselves in their shoes. How would you deal with heaps and heaps and piles of manuscripts, some from people who have barely completed the first five years of school? Because that is the reality of the job of finding new authors.

As for the paperclip thing: it's common knowledge that mansucripts should NOT be clipped, taped, bound, stapled or otherwise fastened together. Double spacimg, etc etc etc. These are the conventions of submission. You nay think they are silly; but not keeping to them identifies you as an amatear, who has not researched the submission process.

Read (top UK agent's) Carole Blake's excellent book "From Pitch to Publication". In it she says quite bluntly that when she picks up a mansucript she is looking for reasons to reject it; any little one will do. If you don't care about your manuscript presentation, why should she care about your manuscript?

[Andrew Jameson]

'Art' may be a suspect word but even more so is 'product'.
Almost no other art form is so interfered with as writing before it reaches the audience. No other art form suffers from such a vast weight of predetermined rules and regulations.

Paintings are not repainted by gallery owners before they are hung on the walls and gallery owners do not dictate in advance what the wrk is to look like!
Gallery owners talk to artists quite happily, unlike publishers who have to have a nice wall of agents between them.
There is no such thing as a fine artists agent, artists wander into galleries with slides and are seen, gallery owners actually go out to student shows to see work.
There are easily as many painters as there are writers but a gulf of difference in how they are treated.
A commercial artist can just ring a publisher for an appointment to show his work. A writer may not. Not without being vilified for it at any rate.Unlike aruna, I do know something about the art world. Not necessarily a lot, but enough. (My wife is an artist, and we know a lot of people in the local art community.)

First of all, the comparison between the business of selling books and the business of selling paintings is a bit of an apples-and-oranges comparison. A successful book will sell thousands of copies all over the nation. A successful painting will sell one copy in one city. Even multiple-copy art forms--photographs and etchings, for example--are expected to sell only a few tens of copies. So the art world has more space for what you might call "niche" artists: if you can reliably sell to a dozen collectors, you'll be welcome in a gallery.

But let's put that apples-and-oranges argument aside for a moment and examine what else Peekay says. Let's start with this: "No other art form suffers from such a vast weight of predetermined rules and regulations." I'm assuming he means rules and regulations regarding submissions (please correct me if I'm wrong). Simply not true. Let's look at the submission guidelines for artists (http://www.indplsartcenter.org/html/about_opportunities%20for%20artists.html) at a major-city art center (a semi-random example):Any artist may submit a proposal for a one to three person exhibition by sending a complete artist's packet.
Please include:

· a cover letter with 20 images* of past work (or exact work you wish exhibited) *send slides or a CD with digital images in jpeg or tiff format at 300 dpi

· an artist statement

· a resume or biography

· support documents such as reviews of prior exhibitions

· a detailed diagram of the proposed layout if it is an installation

· a self-addressed stamped envelope (SASE) for return of all materials

· videotapes of performance work may also be included as part of the packet.

Priority will be given to artists living or working within 250 miles of Indianapolis, however, all proposals will be given equal consideration. All proposals collected during the year will be reviewed during February 2006 for the 2007-2008 season, and you will be notified about your status before the end of May 2006. Your work may be paired with that of one to three other artists in a small group exhibition. All works are insured while on site, and a small stipend may be available in curated exhibitions. For further information ...So in addition to 20 slides and a cover letter, you need an artist's statement (typically 1-2 pages), a resume (1-2 pages), support documentation (wow!), and a detailed diagram (yikes!). And you sure as heck better tailor a lot of that information to the specific gallery.

Now, onward. Peekay says, "Paintings are not repainted by gallery owners before they are hung on the walls and gallery owners do not dictate in advance what the wrk is to look like!" Absolutely true. Except remember that a lot of the impression of a painting comes from the atmosphere of the gallery, which the gallery owner controls. Look at the quote above: "Your work may be paired with that of one to three other artists in a small group exhibition." The artist has little control over how the work is hung, where it is hung, when it is hung, the other artists the work is hung with. More telling, the gallery owner has final say over which works are hung--if the owner likes some works and not others, too bad. So the spirit of this statement--that there's little editorial control by gallery owners--is simply not true.

And now: "Gallery owners talk to artists quite happily, unlike publishers who have to have a nice wall of agents between them." Well, yes and no. Art communities tend to be more local, so it's much easier to Know Someone, or Know Someone Who Knows Someone. Personal contacts open a lot of doors, there's no denying that. Walking in cold off the street is a different story. You might get looked at, you might not, but you'll probably end up in the slush pile, just like a manuscript query. It's a smaller slush pile (art being more local, after all), but a slush pile nonetheless.

Of course, there's different gradations. Walk into the local coffee house, and you might get an invitation to hang right on the spot. But those places rarely sell much of anything, and hardly anyone goes to the coffee house for the art. Walk into an upscale New York gallery and... well, I don't know what will happen, but you darn sure won't get an offer for a show right away, and I'd be surprised if your slides don;t go straight into the circular file. Even at the in-between places, it's extremely unlikely you'll get a show right away. Galleries typically schedule a year's worth of shows all at one time, so best-case scenario is you get on the list for consideration sometime next year.

[Susan Gable]

It was some time ago... and I have changed e- mail programs since, but unless all of them are taking three years to repy then no. An amazing percentage were dead links though.

I get depressed just thinking about it! I have rarely sent paper copies of anythong anywhere. Too depressing, too slow, too expensive too soul destroying too... just too really.

No. That is part of the particular and complex information I suppose, given the wonders of e-mail what the devil does the nationality of the author matter?

I have seen the most astonishing prequisites from publishers, asking blood type, inside leg measurement... do not send manuscripts unless they are in Helvitica italic, purple and there is a 'j' in the month.

Dude, some unsolicited advice - give it up now. Why? Because with your attitude, you're not going to get anywhere. Actually, this kind of attitude may just be the very attitude that deserves PA, so why not just go with them and save your fake agent some legwork?

And you have a secret plan (sorry - scurrilous scheme) that you can't talk about? Yeah, right. Whatever.

Boo-hoo, it's so hard to get published, it's too expensive to send out mailed copies of queries, good writers are being shunned by the big bad publishing world... Where the heck did I put my violin?

Nobody said anything worth having would be easy to obtain. But it's a dam* bit easier to obtain if you don't waste energy on whining about how hard it is, put on a positive attitude, and work your butt off to make the goal happen.

Sorry if this sounds harsh - I'm wearing my "Be Blunt, Speak Your Mind" t-shirt today.

Susan G.

[James D. Macdonald]

Is there any particular reason you limited yourself to emailing agents?


The received wisdom was, and apparently still is, that this was the correct
thing for a good and well behaved writer to do.

Odd, I've never heard that. What did the agents' guidelines say?



It was some time ago... and I have changed e- mail programs since, but unless all of them are taking three years to repy then no. An amazing percentage were dead links though.


So you were sending your queries to agencies that had gone out of business? That doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence that the rest were well-selected. I can't imagine a query that got no response at all from that many agents.

A paper query letter with a self-addressed stamped envelope will usually get better responses, and not all agents take email queries.


I get depressed just thinking about it! I have rarely sent paper copies of anythong anywhere. Too depressing, too slow, too expensive too soul destroying too... just too really.

Give it a shot anyway.


I found this bit amazing:



First, why were you considering Behler at all? Their guidelines state: "We accept submissions only from writers living in the U.S." Is this you?


No. That is part of the particular and complex information I suppose, given the wonders of e-mail what the devil does the nationality of the author matter?

What's complex and confusing about "where do you live?"

Do you argue with everyone's guidelines? Do you know better than they do what they're looking for? If the guidelines say some publisher is looking for books from five-foot-tall left-handed redhead women, and you aren't one, don't waste their time or yours by submitting. Arguing about it is another waste of time.


I have seen the most astonishing prequisites from publishers, asking blood type, inside leg measurement... do not send manuscripts unless they are in Helvitica italic, purple and there is a 'j' in the month.

Have you indeed? I have the gravest doubts that anyone asked for blood type and inseam meaurements. I suspect that the typeface they specified was Courier 10 or 12, black, on white paper. If the guidelines say they only accept unsolicited manuscripts in January, then sending them a manuscript in August is, again, a waste of your time and theirs.

If you want to be treated as a professional, you have to act like a professional. Second-guessing their requirements -- sending a horror novel to a market whose guidelines say "no horror" for example -- won't have a positive result. I trust you saw the second category for instantly rejected books at Slushkiller (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html)?


"Author has submitted some variety of literature we don’t publish: poetry, religious revelation, political rant, illustrated fanfic, etc."

===========

Here are some typical guidelines from a magazine: http://www.bylinemag.com/guidelines.asp

They're unusual in this: They're a paying market for poetry.

Let's look at the poetry guidelines:

Poetry - Our poetry also deals with the subject of writing. We lean toward free verse but will accept skillful rhyme if it is not predictable. We seek good quality, serious or humorous poetry about the creative experience, 26 lines or fewer. Poems about writer's block, "the muse", and inspiration that comes in the middle of the night have been overdone. Payment for poems is $10.

That means that if you have a poem about dog grooming, you shouldn't send it to them. Same for your sonnet about writer's block. Same for your 4,000 line epic in heroic couplets about anything at all.

The purpose of guidelines is to make everyone's job simpler. If reading and following guidelines puts you in such a dither that you have to lie down, it's a very good idea indeed to have a friend take over that part of your writing career.

The reason PublishAmerica's guidelines are so loose is that they'll publish anything at all. The reason they reply so quickly is because they don't read the submissions.

You can do far better than that.

[MadScientistMatt]

'Art' may be a suspect word but even more so is 'product'.
Almost no other art form is so interfered with as writing before it reaches the audience. No other art form suffers from such a vast weight of predetermined rules and regulations.

You should see what happens to the work of artists who design concept cars.

[Andrew Jameson]

SO if I were to call up a gallery owner tomorrow and say I have some slides/paintings I'd like to show him, he;d just say, great come along?Mmmm... he might, actually. Think of it as a query process. Galleries specializing in emerging local artists (and that's not unusual) have a relatively small pool to draw from, relatively more slots available (they'll do group shows), and thus relatively lower standards. So the query process is more informal, and you probably could just call him up and drop by. Tonier galleries with a more, ah, upscale clientele will have a more formal query process.

[latichever]

Peekay: I emailed loads of agents, but the one who is repping me takes only snail mail queries. From where are you getting your bad information?

[DaveKuzminski]

I'm sorry, what response to my e-mail??? I didn't send them one! I sent the other company, LBF a nice mail teling them about my magnum opus. As yet no response. PA, who I mailed at the same time, have already responded.

Pssst, Peekay, wanna know a secret? Listen closely. Scammers reply faster than legitimate businesses. They can't afford to let their marks have enough time to do more research since time is always against them when it comes to separating money from the marks' wallets.

[momwrites]

Pekay said...The received wisdom was, and apparently still is, that this was the correct
thing for a good and well behaved writer to do.
It was some time ago... and I have changed e- mail programs since, but unless all of them are taking three years to repy then no. An amazing percentage were dead links though.


It's true that it take a looooong time to get an agent let alone a publisher. I have been working at it for close to 6 years. My first book was self-published and is now rewritten and I am having a bugger of a time getting an agent to look at it (its a novel about mental illness) BUT, and this is a big BUT, I am still working on it. I get suggestions and good advice from some editors and others say "No thanks." My trilogy, which will be published in 2007, by Millennial Press was no easy feat. I sent in my manuscript and it took four months before they e-mailed me and asked for a few revisions; I sent it in, then they asked for a few more; I sent those in and it was almost four more months before I heard back that they were putting me on their publishing docet for 2007. Yes, that is still a year away, but I worked my a** off to get an acceptance.


I get depressed just thinking about it! I have rarely sent paper copies of anythong anywhere. Too depressing, too slow, too expensive too soul destroying too... just too really.


Well, unfortunately that is the way the business of publishing works. I have sent out more queries than I can count and have e-mailed even more. I heard back from almost half of the ones I emailed and some agents and publishers e-mailed me back the next day asking for my manuscript.

I have seen the most astonishing prequisites from publishers, asking blood type, inside leg measurement... do not send manuscripts unless they are in Helvitica italic, purple and there is a 'j' in the month.

I have NEVER been asked to supply my blood count! Come on, a little over the top don't ya think? Yes, many are VERY picky with what they want, but if you're a serious writer, you do it, because, well...you just do.

[Peekay]

snipped for brevity...

Having queried Lynn on two occasions, I have not found her information much different to other companies, with the exception that I have gotten good feedback from her and believe that she genuinely cares about what she is doing.

Count your blessings that you have a publisher here that will take a moment to talk with us without restricting her availability to us.

From all I can see and tell, Lynn runs a good operation. Perhaps one of my queries will fhelp my manuscrript find a home there, but if she rejects all of my stuff, I will still respect her. We may also disagree on certain points, but it is always an agreeable discussion.

To make a long story short, Lynn is one of the few directly accessible publishers around. If I can get through, anyone can.

Allen



The point is that I do not have any idea what se is talking about? She has never sent me an e-mail on any subject at all let alone for extra information, or assuming she did, it never arrived. Hence my puzzlement.

[momwrites]

I have NEVER been asked to supply my blood count! Come on, a little over the top don't ya think? Yes, many are VERY picky with what they want, but if you're a serious writer, you do it, because, well...you just do.

Oops, I meant blood TYPE! :box:

[postshy]

Here is an example of what I mean. Well meaning or not, we are being dragged way off topic here to discuss the pros and cons of having our work accepted by a legitimate publisher. You both missed my point completely. At least Peekay seems to be reading the posts fore and aft, but he/she is not listening.

In a nutshell - yes, it is possible for a new author to be accepted today and no, most of the time, it does not happen overnight. I have had over ten rejections, but I am aware that J. K. Rowlings had many more than that and I am no J. K. Rowlings. I currently have a nibble, but it may come to nothing and it will be no one's fault but my own, but PA is not the answer. They are insulting, lie to you and throw you out with the bathwater as soon as you have bought your quota of books. You will not make it as an author looking for a readership, or loads of money - period. You will have a printed book, mistakes and all.

Now, how about those books that are supposed to be returnable? Does PA lie, or not? Are their e-mails coherent, or not? I vote for Dee Power's take on the situation.

postshy/Roberta.

[Peekay]

Pssst, Peekay, wanna know a secret? Listen closely. Scammers reply faster than legitimate businesses. They can't afford to let their marks have enough time to do more research since time is always against them when it comes to separating money from the marks' wallets.


I suppose I'd better repeat yet again that I have not had a penny piece pried out of me by the great Satan, they tried to sell me a marketing book which I ignored and I have never been pressured to order from anything them. I'm sorry but there it is. Beleive me, if I had been coerced or deceived I would complain long and loud, I have no reason not to.
While I cannot speak for others their 'scam' seems to be not working in my respect. My wallet remains inviolate.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Dude, some unsolicited advice - give it up now. Why? Because with your attitude, you're not going to get anywhere. Actually, this kind of attitude may just be the very attitude that deserves PA, so why not just go with them and save your fake agent some legwork?

And you have a secret plan (sorry - scurrilous scheme) that you can't talk about? Yeah, right. Whatever.

Boo-hoo, it's so hard to get published, it's too expensive to send out mailed copies of queries, good writers are being shunned by the big bad publishing world... Where the heck did I put my violin?

Nobody said anything worth having would be easy to obtain. But it's a dam* bit easier to obtain if you don't waste energy on whining about how hard it is, put on a positive attitude, and work your butt off to make the goal happen.

Sorry if this sounds harsh - I'm wearing my "Be Blunt, Speak Your Mind" t-shirt today.

Susan G.

yep, he's a perfect fit for PA...

:ROFL:

Susan - you GO, GIRL!

we now return you to much more informative posts about PublishAmerica...

[Peekay]

Mmmm... he might, actually. Think of it as a query process. Galleries specializing in emerging local artists (and that's not unusual) have a relatively small pool to draw from, relatively more slots available (they'll do group shows), and thus relatively lower standards. So the query process is more informal, and you probably could just call him up and drop by. Tonier galleries with a more, ah, upscale clientele will have a more formal query process.



I was referring to Cork Street Galleries, where my slides were looked at then and there on the spot on more than one occasion. One owner actually said in a magazine that he wished people would walk in off the street to show him new work. I did, and we had a very pleasant chat.
It is unimaginable for a publisher to talk in that way. They can't even talk on the phone in a civil manner.

[priceless1]

The point is that I do not have any idea what se is talking about? She has never sent me an e-mail on any subject at all let alone for extra information, or assuming she did, it never arrived. Hence my puzzlement.
Aplogies, Peekay, I misunderstood your initial email. I thought you had already queried us and I mistook you for a writer who had omitted pertinent information in his submission. The long and short of it is that you're being given lovely advice for free from people who have been through the trials of the publication process. Do with it what you will. Just please don't sit back and whine about how tough it all is. No one promised you that life would be a cake walk. If you're serious, roll up your sleeves and get to work.

Peekay said: It is unimaginable for a publisher to talk in that way. They can't even talk on the phone in a civil manner.
Aside from what you may hear on the other end of a PA employee and possibly the large houses, I believe this to be quite untrue. I know a number of small/midsize publishers and in comparing notes, we all stop and take time out to talk to people. I'm sorry, but this all has the ring of more excuses of "why I can't." The world won't stop for you.

[Sheryl Nantus]

It is unimaginable for a publisher to talk in that way. They can't even talk on the phone in a civil manner.

oh, you poor boy... wait until you meet "Author Support" over at PA!

:ROFL:

[MadScientistMatt]

I suppose I'd better repeat yet again that I have not had a penny piece pried out of me by the great Satan, they tried to sell me a marketing book which I ignored and I have never been pressured to order from anything them. I'm sorry but there it is. Beleive me, if I had been coerced or deceived I would complain long and loud, I have no reason not to.
While I cannot speak for others their 'scam' seems to be not working in my respect. My wallet remains inviolate.

On the other hand, how many of your books have they actually sold?

[DaveKuzminski]

I suppose I'd better repeat yet again that I have not had a penny piece pried out of me by the great Satan, they tried to sell me a marketing book which I ignored and I have never been pressured to order from anything them. I'm sorry but there it is. Beleive me, if I had been coerced or deceived I would complain long and loud, I have no reason not to.
While I cannot speak for others their 'scam' seems to be not working in my respect. My wallet remains inviolate.

Peekay, I stated only one thing in the post you referenced. I will now type it very slowly so you can read it at your level of understanding. Scammers reply faster than legitimate businesses. Then I told you why they respond faster. In your own words, you've admitted they tried to sell you a marketing book. Just because you avoided the scam so far doesn't make them any less scammy. It just means they've been unsuccessful so far in scamming you. So far, that is.

By the way, why would they try to sell you that book if you haven't signed up yet? Oh, I know. This must be the new PA author on the block initiation!

Well, tell us in a year just how many books you managed to sell. We'll still be here and you'll still be welcome to drop in and tell us. The real question you should be asking is whether you'll still be welcome at PA then.

[Peekay]

yep, he's a perfect fit for PA...

:ROFL:

Susan - you GO, GIRL!

we now return you to much more informative posts about PublishAmerica...



You grand published authors are SO SWEET! Thank you so much.

I've not seen so much protestant work ethic since th'pit closed down, ee, th'publishers know best, best t'tug the forelock when mister Random House goes by young 'un.
They will never have to grind us down while we are oppressing each other FOR them. And to think creative types are rumoured to be work shy fops.
Does me old heart good.

[Peekay]

Peekay, I stated only one thing in the post you referenced. I will now type it very slowly so you can read it at your level of understanding. Scammers reply faster than legitimate businesses. Then I told you why they respond faster. In your own words, you've admitted they tried to sell you a marketing book. Just because you avoided the scam so far doesn't make them any less scammy. It just means they've been unsuccessful so far in scamming you. So far, that is.

By the way, why would they try to sell you that book if you haven't signed up yet? Oh, I know. This must be the new PA author on the block initiation!

Well, tell us in a year just how many books you managed to sell. We'll still be here and you'll still be welcome to drop in and tell us. The real question you should be asking is whether you'll still be welcome at PA then.




My comprehension difficulties to one side, I repeat, this is the SECOND book which I have sent them this morning, (That is why it is called Salmagundi TWO???) the first one they published about a year ago. It was fully signed up for.
I'm sorry that the actual facts don't fit your predjudice but there is little that I can do about that.

[Susan Gable]

You grand published authors are SO SWEET! Thank you so much.

You're welcome. Since you seemed so down-spirited already about life in the publishing world, I thought I'd try to save you some grief. :kiss:


They will never have to grind us down while we are oppressing each other FOR them. And to think creative types are rumoured to be work shy fops.
Does me old heart good.

My post oppressed you on behalf of big publishing? Huh. My words must be more powerful than I thought. Maybe I ought to have a license to operate this here keyboard.

Anyway, I think as others have pointed out, this is becoming a diversionary tactic from the important question about the returnablility of the PA books. So, I now return you to that and other relative PA comments. :)

Susan G.

[DaveKuzminski]

My comprehension difficulties to one side, I repeat, this is the SECOND book which I have sent them this morning, (That is why it is called Salmagundi TWO???) the first one they published about a year ago. It was fully signed up for.
I'm sorry that the actual facts don't fit your predjudice but there is little that I can do about that.

You're the one who's posting here trying to convince everyone that your way is the right way and that the rest of the entire publishing industry doesn't know what it's doing and is prejudiced.

So, how well is Salmagundi ONE doing? Want to compare royalty statements with a very midlist ebook writer? After all, I wouldn't want to force you to compare yourself with one of those grand writers from one of the big houses.

[keltora]

My Sunday paper ran an article recently of "new authors" publishing for the first time. As I scanned the list, I found 8 small press publishers (2 are through a local university press, the rest are historical/nonfiction/small presses, some based in NYC), 8 self-published (including one that is a friend of mine who went this route after a terrible experience with a small press publisher--her book is local historical fiction and actually well-written, but the experience turned her into a nervous wreck, and in fact it was her husband who told her for the sake of the entire family to go ahead, finish her second book and he would start a small press just for her...) and 2 PublishAmerica victims.

Interestingly, both victims live in very tiny towns in the surrounding area.

Saddens me, that in spite of all my efforts to educate people locally to stay away from PublishAmerica, there are still people who are not learning the truth about this scammer until it is too late for them.

Small Town Writers PLEASE beware of this monster.

[Peekay]

oh, you poor boy... wait until you meet "Author Support" over at PA!

:ROFL:


Unlike most authors I don't have that masochistic streak that so many of you relish.

[Richard]

I've not seen so much protestant work ethic since th'pit closed down, ee, th'publishers know best, best t'tug the forelock when mister Random House goes by young 'un. They will never have to grind us down while we are oppressing each other FOR them. And to think creative types are rumoured to be work shy fops. Does me old heart good.

Excellent persecution complex you've got going there. RANDOM NOTE: Grinding down and offering support and professional advice are generally mutually exclusive.

[DaveKuzminski]

By the way, Peekay, the presence of a number in the title doesn't mean that there's another book in the series. Case in point, I recently published Mark II with Double Dragon Publishing. There is no Mark I. The number refers to something else and that's why it's in the title or did you think there were also books titled Catch 1 through Catch 21?

So, I'll ask again. How many copies did Salmagundi 1 sell?

[Peekay]

You're the one who's posting here trying to convince everyone that your way is the right way and that the rest of the entire publishing industry doesn't know what it's doing and is prejudiced.

So, how well is Salmagundi ONE doing? Want to compare royalty statements with a very midlist ebook writer? After all, I wouldn't want to force you to compare yourself with one of those grand writers from one of the big houses.



I have no idea, I didn't imagine that S1 would make me my fortune, it wasn't, strange to relate, written as a job and with the Penguin books guide to sentence structure open on the deak before me.
I don't recalling saying my way was 'right', but then neither have I started a thread entitled 'Everyone that publishes with (Fill in name of choice) is an idiot'.

I do know that it sold a damn sight more copies than having the Gosh Almighty House of Recycling or whoever publish none whatsoever.

I have got a book out with PA and therefore happen to know that nothing of the kind lamented happened to me. Presumably I am unique in some way. There were no demanded qoutas of books to buy and no obligation to purchase anything.
I have no reason to invent those statements.

[Peekay]

By the way, Peekay, the presence of a number in the title doesn't mean that there's another book in the series. Case in point, I recently published Mark II with Double Dragon Publishing. There is no Mark I. The number refers to something else and that's why it's in the title or did you think there were also books titled Catch 1 through Catch 21?



I don;t think you are concentrating.
How did you think I maaged to post a link to the book on Amazon if it was posted to PA this morning?
They don't work that fast.



So, I'll ask again. How many copies did Salmagundi 1 sell?

No idea, the roayalties, assuming there to be any, are paid yearly and Number one was published in JANUARY?

[DaveKuzminski]

Ah, Peekay, then you're merely an amateur apologist for PA.

Also, that's an inaccurate quote attributed to me. Fix it.

Also, your book is listed as published in November 2004. That's more than long enough for it to have generated a royalty statement. Want to try again? How many copies has it sold according to your royalty statement(s)?

[Sparhawk]

I'm sorry, what response to my e-mail??? I didn't send them one! I sent the other company, LBF a nice mail teling them about my magnum opus. As yet no response. PA, who I mailed at the same time, have already responded.

Hi Peekay,

LBF is a small but reputable publisher. Beleive me when I tell you that Jacki Marchetti gets inundated with manuscripts. I sent mine to them in May and am still awaiting final word. They will correspond with you if you e-mail them and their submissions center is set up so that you can post diredctly with the person reviewing your particular body of work.

Good Luck : )

[eqb]

You grand published authors are SO SWEET! Thank you so much. I've not seen so much protestant work ethic since th'pit closed down, ee, th'publishers know best, best t'tug the forelock when mister Random House goes by young 'un.

Sorry, but it's very hard to take your complaints seriously. Several experienced writers and publishers have posted how to approach commercial publishers, but you meet every piece of advice with "but that's not how I want to do it."

If you're happy with your vanity publisher, that's fine, but please don't pretend that you were driven to it.

For others who might be lurking, who actually want to get published by commerical publishers (large or small), here's how:

1. Write a damned good book.
2. Research agents to find out which ones are taking new clients (they're out there), and what their guidelines are.
3. Send out submission packages that follow those guidelines.
4. Be professional.
5. Keep writing.

[JohnJStephens]

I have got a book out with PA and therefore happen to know that nothing of the kind lamented happened to me.Peekay, it seems that you are British. Did you sign up with PA direct or with Publish Britannica/Atlantica?

[MadScientistMatt]

Unlike most authors I don't have that masochistic streak that so many of you relish.

Is that an admission that you expect dealing with their Author Support to be a painful process?

[astonwest]

And back to PA...

So, if the PA employee over at Ed's forum is in fact really a PA employee, will Larry and Willy simply fire all their employees, hire up new ones and move on?

[tab]

And back to PA...

So, if the PA employee over at Ed's forum is in fact really a PA employee, will Larry and Willy simply fire all their employees, hire up new ones and move on?

I'm suprised that they don't outsource the editing to India.

[astonwest]

I'm suprised that they don't outsource the editing to India.
How could one tell if they did?

[Dawno]

Tab, Aston, if they outsourced it, it might actually improve. They can hire more editors for the same $ and the educational standards there are as good if not better in some cases. I'm not saying I 100% support outsourcing but I know a bit about it and I've seen cases where the overseas product was as good as, if not better, than what we were getting here.

[tab]

Tab, Aston, if they outsourced it, it might actually improve. They can hire more editors for the same $ and the educational standards there are as good if not better in some cases. I'm not saying I 100% support outsourcing but I know a bit about it and I've seen cases where the overseas product was as good as, if not better, than what we were getting here.

I'm not so sure the quality would improve, but the stooges would certainly get more bang for their buck. PublishIndia!

[Jean Marie]

How could one tell if they did?

In the front of the book where PA places their disclaimer-option 1, no editing. Yeah, like they edit in the first placehttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gifwell, anyway, there's a camel stamp.

[Christine N.]

I'm sorry, what response to my e-mail??? I didn't send them one! I sent the other company, LBF a nice mail teling them about my magnum opus. As yet no response. PA, who I mailed at the same time, have already responded.

Ah, then what you're suffering from is a lack of patience. PA already responded b/c you got your ms in before quota was met that day.

I think right now LBF is closed to subs until they catch up. (Thanks, Sparhawk, for the nice things you said, Jake would be so pleased).

Personally, having taken that one year stroll down the publishing path with LBF (the book goes to print this week!) I can honestly say I had a wonderful experience. E-mails answered promptly (and nary a 'tone' message among them) and so many other things.

My editing took two months. Back and forth, piece by piece. I had my very own illustrator, who did his work JUST for my book, and never to be used for any other.

Here's a BIG difference b/w LBF and PA - there's a publicity department (actually a firm) working to get my book stocked in real brick and mortar stores. They WANT to sell books, and not to me.

Here's another difference - I got Advance Reader Copies. They were sent to reviewers. I'm collecting reviews, from people I don't know. I've waited a little over a year since acceptance until release. LBF is so busy now, I know that time is extended by at least half.

They have my next book, have had it for three-four months. I also have partials with two different agents. Going on six weeks with one. I don't expect to hear back from her for at least another two. If (please) she asks for a full ms. read, I know it will be three months. Minimum.

Patience is a virtue, and being a (career) writer is a never ending exercise in patience.

Unless you go with PA, then you can have that thing whipped out in no time. It won't be ready for the public, more likely than not, but the public won't be able to find it anyway.

P.S. - When did you query LBF? If it was after Oct. 17, then your query was deleted, as they have been closed to ms subs since that time. They are so buried under subs and new books coming out that they need to catch up. So they decided to not look at anything new until they get what they've got off the desk. It's in big red letters on the online submission form.
If it was before that, then have some patience, it may take a few months, but they'll get back to you.

[SC Harrison]

I think I need to clarify my statements a bit. Not for one moment am I saying that we should not speak the truth here, or there. What I am saying is that, in spite of people who join the Boards, just to make trouble and not necessarily help the cause, their lies do nothing more than have the opposite effect. They may throw this forum off topic for a while, but it stimulates traffic as people start reading and posting cold, hard facts.

The same thing applies on Ed and Soot's forum. If someone is just aping a PA employee, then it is still serving the purpose because people jump on board to either agree or refute what they are saying - kind of like what "sock puppet" does sometimes.

However, I am not implying that lying should be condoned
by genuine posters. We know that it may be a tool used by the enemy, but we should not let them achieve their purpose. I am certainly not calling the regulars liars, or advocating that they should lie.



Did I clarify that, or muddy the water even more?:)

postshy/Roberta

Roberta, I understand everything you are saying, including your inference about those not helping the cause. I will also make a concerted effort to avoid dishonor and disingenuity whenever possible. This should be easy, since I really don't have an agenda anyway, but I'll try to watch out for these things. Let me close with a quote from the book of Steve:

And a voice cried out in the wilderness, saying "Lord, please give me the wisdom to discern the siren song of the False Prophets, for they are cunning; their music is sweet to my ears, and I would follow them unto the deeper parts of the Earth."

And the voice of the Lord thundered from the heavens, and it said, "We can't come to the phone right now, but if you leave a message, we'll get back to you as soon as possible."

[Jean Marie]

I have a pet peeve-besides the obvious. Seems I'm getting threatened again-jeez!! Some people just have too much time on their hands. Ah, well.

Anyhow, I've heard my talking about what dirty, rotten scoundrels the PA owners are is actually hurting the cause more than helping. <<scratches head>> And that many more have been hurt more than I have. Whatever.
Do ya think that's gonna stop me? No way!!!http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonwag.gif

It doesn't matter to try and measure who's been hurt more or less. The most important factor is that it does not happen to anyone else. That's the bottom line.

PublishAmerica=Criminals

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi again, Peekay:

Amazon(US) says your book came out in November '04. You and Amazon(UK) say it came out on 15 January '05. I'll go with that date. (The Amazon database does have errors.)

Since that time you should have received two statements, per Paragraph 12 in your contract, plus royalty checks if any books sold. One mailed in February (usually on the last day of the month to arrive in March) covering the period from 15 January to 31 January, and one mailed in August (usually on the last day of the month to arrive in September) to cover the period from 01 February to 31 July.

Are you saying that you didn't receive either of those statements?

Since your book came out you avoided at least three high-pressure attempts to get you to buy multiple copies of your own book. One was the one-time-only 50% off deal when the book was first printed (if I recall correctly you have two weeks to make the purchase). The other two were on 02 June '05, in conjunction with the release of Meiners' book:

You may now order your own copy of the PublishAmerica inside story, at the special pre-release discount price of $9.95 (retail price: $24.95), here: http://www.publishamerica.com/inside_story (http://www.publishamerica.com/inside_story).

But there is more! To celebrate your successes, we are offering bookstores a special discount deal that we also extend to any individual who needs books on hand: This offer covers all of our titles except full-color picture books:

*between 25-50 books: 40 pct discount
*between 51-100 books: 45 pct discount + a copy of How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz for free!
*between 101-200 books: 50 pct discount + a copy of How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz for free!
*201 or more books: 55 pct discount + a copy of How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz for free!

The offer expires June 10.


and on 13 September '05 with the announcement of the "returns" program:

Please bear with us as we must do this gradually, in order to enable our wholesaler Ingram to accurately activate the new status on roughly eleven thousand books that are currently in print, starting with the titles that are selling more than 40 copies in September (libraries and individuals who order more than 40 copies this month are receiving a 40 pct discount; phone orders only at 301 695 1707).
Also, there will be a few exceptions initially, such as full-color picture books, and for the time being this revolutionary experiment will be limited to U.S. bookstores only. We will review the results after a few months and see what, if any, adjustments must be made.

Didn't you receive those letters? If not, I'd really check my email program and any spam filters that might be in place if I were you. You may not be getting all your mail.


You already noted the attempt to sell you the marketing book.

You've done well to avoid making those purchases. Not that PA cares whether any particular one of their titles sells or not: To make up for your not ordering any, someone else, somewhere, ordered 150 copies. The average holds. PA is playing the odds.

[LloydBrown]

I suppose I'd better repeat yet again that I have not had a penny piece pried out of me by the great Satan, they tried to sell me a marketing book which I ignored and I have never

So let ask just to be perfectly clear here: you have not bought any of your own books, correct?

[Canada James]

I cannot quite understand this implied belief that traditional publishers are just gasping to embrace new talent nurture them and pay them!
When does that ever happen?

It happened to me. (And it's happening again next year, and the year after that...)

C. James

[Canada James]

I am not a proffessional apologist for PA!
I am sure that PA Lulu are indeed taking advantage of the misery and despair of writers, BUT WHO IS CREATING THAT MISERY AND DESPAIR???

PA is.

(That one was easy enough.)

C. James

[DeePower]

I have no patience for you, unlike others on this board.

You are intentionally being a distraction.

Did anyone notice the replies from PA I posted in response to an honest question from a Pa author regarding returnability?

What if, and I am not saying or implying it is what PA is doing, but what if, after all we are all writers with rather vivid imaginations, what if, there isn't any return policy in the works.

What happens?

Dee

[akaa1a]

Does the term "angry mob" come to mind? :box:

[James D. Macdonald]

Did anyone notice the replies from PA I posted in response to an honest question from a Pa author regarding returnability?

Yep. I noticed 'em.



What if, and I am not saying or implying it is what PA is doing, but what if, after all we are all writers with rather vivid imaginations, what if, there isn't any return policy in the works.


Remember me saying, way back when the "returns" policy was first announced, words to the effect of "I'll believe it when I see it"?


What happens?

I imagine it'll go like this:

Good news! PublishAmerica has boldly taken the lead in proving that "returns" don't lead to higher sales! Therefore, PublishAmerica books will be made non-returnable. Every book will be printed in response to real demand. No books will go to waste!

The entire publishing industry is sitting up and taking notice of what PublishAmerica has done. Expect to see more and more publishers abolishing "returns" in the weeks and months to come!

And to share the satisfaction that comes from being an industry leader, for the next week only you'll be able to stock up on copies of your own book at the following deep discounts!


20 to 50 copies, 30% discount
51 to 100 copies, 40% discount
101 to 200 copies, 50% discount
Over 201 copies, 55% discount

Telephone orders only. Does not apply to children's books with interior color illustrations.

You are once again innovators bringing publishing into the 21st century!

[James D. Macdonald]

Does the term "angry mob" come to mind? :box:

Nah. A round of bannings and deletions, and three months later no one will remember that it ever happened.

Instead you'll see a whole crop of happy and excited newbies, all certain that (unlike the jealous bashers whose books were rejected by PA and the whiners and crybabies who didn't read their contracts and expected to get rich and famous overnight without doing any promotion) their books will sell widely because they're just so darned good.

[momwrites]

Yep. I noticed 'em.




Remember me saying, way back when the "returns" policy was first announced, words to the effect of "I'll believe it when I see it"?



I imagine it'll go like this:


Good news! PublishAmerica has boldly taken the lead in proving that "returns" don't lead to higher sales! Therefore, PublishAmerica books will be made non-returnable. Every book will be printed in response to real demand. No books will go to waste!


The entire publishing industry is sitting up and taking notice of what PublishAmerica has done. Expect to see more and more publishers abolishing "returns" in the weeks and months to come!

And to share the satisfaction that comes from being an industry leader, for the next week only you'll be able to stock up on copies of your own book at the following deep discounts!


20 to 50 copies, 30% discount
51 to 100 copies, 40% discount
101 to 200 copies, 50% discount
Over 201 copies, 55% discount

Telephone orders only. Does not apply to children's books with interior color illustrations.

You are once again innovators bringing publishing into the 21st century!


You said it! Boy Jim, you do have that down pat don't you! :D

[LloydBrown]

Combining multiple posts here

am sure that PA Lulu are indeed taking advantage of the misery and despair of writers
No, just PA. Lulu does exactly what it claims and doesn't imply that you'll sell anything through its efforts.

I noticed that you didn’t reply directly to either of my questions in post 27121. However, the first one has been answered already. You have been "published", by which you apparently mean you "signed a contract", because your publication doesn’t actually involve any of that selling of books thing that it means for the rest of us.
Talentless fool I may well be, but how would they ever know?
If your query letters are written on the same level as your message board posts, they know.

Writing is not just a job, it used to also be an 'art form'. If people write from within, out of urgent need, not to be 'salable' then they are to be dismissed out of hand?'By people who are in business to sell books for money, yes. If you want to sell books, then you have to write books that people want to read. If you have an "urgent need" to write, then just write. Don’t worry about getting published.
My comprehension difficulties to one side, I repeat, this is the SECOND book which I have sent them this morning, Actually, as of that post (27201), you hadn’t mentioned any such thing.

I have no idea, I didn't imagine that S1 would make me my fortune, it (this concerning sales of your first book)
Let me answer that one for you. As Uncle Jim and others have posted, you’ve already passed two royalty periods without receiving a check. You have no sales ranking on either Amazon.com or Amazon.co.uk. It’s a very real possibility that you haven’t sold a thing.
written as a job and with the Penguin books guide to sentence structure open on the deak before me.
How about your mandatory public school education? That’s a great place to start.
I do know that it sold a damn sight more copies than having the Gosh Almighty House of Recycling or whoever publish none whatsoever.
How do you KNOW that when the evidence points toward ZERO sales? Just as a reminder, zero is not more than zero.

I am perfectly prepared to submit otherwhere than PA!
Are you? Let’s see your research, then. 1. What publisher publishes books similar to yours? 2. What’s the name of the editor that you’ve submitted to? 3. Post a brief excerpt that shows that your command of the English language exceeds what you’ve demonstrated so far. 4. Post the text of a cover letter that you have prepared to accompany your manuscript. If you are sincerely interested in getting published, we can workshop you into getting your foot in the door. If you want to whine about how hard it is, keep doing what you’re doing.
See, this is the important part of the post. If you’re really interested in getting published, you’ll step up to the plate here. If you have a preconceived notion that it’s not possible for whatever imaginary reason you have in your mind, then you’ll ignore this generous offer. I could be writing my NaNoWriMo project. I could be working on the contracts I already have open. I could be sending revisions to my publisher for a submitted manuscript. All of us could be doing something worthwhile. Does trying to help you qualify as "worthwhile?" Your response will tell us.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm going to beg everyone's indulgence for getting a little bit farther afield from PublishAmerica just for a minute.

Peekay, I notice that you had an earlier book published: Sigurd: Death of a King (ISBN 0-9711915-0-6) from Lighthouse Press, Deerfield Beach, Florida, 2001.

Excuse me for my curiosity, but were you represented by an agent for that sale? And if so, may I ask the name of the agent/agency?

[Canada James]

Now to be be totally forthcoming, both people are dear friends of mine. I'm a tad irked that their integrity and honesty would be challenged especially when they aren't here to defend themselves. If you doubt Ed and Sooty, doubt them privately not publicly or go on their site and challenge them directly.

I don't believe it's a PA employee either. But that doesn't mean that I think Ed is a liar or a con man, I just don't believe he's delaing with the Real Deal.

For his sake, I hope I'm wrong.

C. James

[DaveKuzminski]

CJ, I've been in contact with several past and present PA employees. What's being stated over on Ed and Soots' site is representative of what I learned in private from those other sources.

[Canada James]

CJ, I've been in contact with several past and present PA employees. What's being stated over on Ed and Soots' site is representative of what I learned in private from those other sources.

For Ed's sake, I do hope he isn't being scammed. It isn't as if a similar technique wasn't used before, just read the story of Commonwealth Publishing.

C. James

[Gravity]

I imagine it'll go like this:


Good news! PublishAmerica has boldly taken the lead in proving that "returns" don't lead to higher sales! Therefore, PublishAmerica books will be made non-returnable. Every book will be printed in response to real demand. No books will go to waste!


The entire publishing industry is sitting up and taking notice of what PublishAmerica has done. Expect to see more and more publishers abolishing "returns" in the weeks and months to come!

And to share the satisfaction that comes from being an industry leader, for the next week only you'll be able to stock up on copies of your own book at the following deep discounts!


20 to 50 copies, 30% discount
51 to 100 copies, 40% discount
101 to 200 copies, 50% discount
Over 201 copies, 55% discount

Telephone orders only. Does not apply to children's books with interior color illustrations.

You are once again innovators bringing publishing into the 21st century!




Dang-a-roonie, Unk! That was so close to the InfoSleaze line it was spooky! And the sad thing, I imagine it'll read just that way, or close enough for jazz, at any rate.

John

[egem]

Man oh man, you taking a beating Peekay. You should get out of this thread. I came in about two week ago and went through a lot of what you are going through right now. You are not going to change anyone's mind here. If you like your book and the time you've had with PA, good. Many people here have been hurt by the company. You will not sway them. I'm not crazy about this thread either. I know if I would have published with PA I would be a little POed by all this too, but you have to remember you are in someone else's playground right now. People have the right to express their views. The PA author's here are genuine in their beliefs. They want to warn writers not to have the same experience they've had with this company. You can't speak for them. I don't think I've agreed with James on a single post, and although I don't show it all that often I respect him for being a writer and doing what he does albeit that he hold completely different views from my own. Jenna, well, there is not enough room in my post to say all the good things I have to say about her starting with nice and ending with wonderful (and yes pretty would be in there too) :)

If you want to voice a dissenting opinion you will have to start your own message board (not another thread here another board of your own). If you read a couple of posts here you will see that the forum is not the "Talk about PA openly and weight out the good and bad" thread. It is a forum for talking about the problems with PA.

You can take my advice or no, but you will not change the minds of the people here. They all want to do what they feel is best for other writers. I would say you are better off to go find some other forums on AW and have some fun talking to writers. There are other PA writers here that do not come into this post. Talking about writing is much more fun to me than talking about PA, but then again I have little stake in PA. Even if I did this wouldn't be the place to express it and try to change people's minds. It took me a little while to understand this, but once I did, I was much better off. In fact I'm having a great deal of fun here, I have come to like this community very much even after a very fiery start.

[LloydBrown]

You are not going to change anyone's mind here.

You can change somebody's mind. You simply have to offer reasonable support for your viewpoint. Need an example of poor support? "I sent a bad query letter for my unpublishable book to a publisher that doesn't accept unagented submissions or my genre and got a rejection" clearly does NOT support an argument that publishers in general don't accept first-time authors. Any walk down a bookshelf aisle can disprove the claim.

Or this one: an implication like "I'm selling lots of books" (or even "I'm selling any books") is not supported by fact when the poster has received no royalties and the book has no Amazon ranking on two different domains.

Or "I'm not a PA apologist", followed by "it's better than ______", where the poster fills in the blank with all other publishing options (like not publishing, large houses, small houses, PODs...okay maybe not free distribution through the Creative Commons. You got me on that one.).

Some people see a situation in which a publisher asks for correct grammar, a certain font & font size, and a certain word count range and work within those guidelines to become published. Others stick their nose in the air and complain about how arbitrary and prejudiced restrictions stifle their art. They can't be bothered to stick a stamp on a SASE because the act of licking apparently disturbs muses.

[SeanDSchaffer]

I have no idea, I didn't imagine that S1 would make me my fortune, it wasn't, strange to relate, written as a job and with the Penguin books guide to sentence structure open on the deak before me.
I don't recalling saying my way was 'right', but then neither have I started a thread entitled 'Everyone that publishes with (Fill in name of choice) is an idiot'.

First, Peekay, it's good to meet you. Welcome to AW.

Second, it seems you've been a tad misinformed about several things, not the least of which is the purpose of this thread. As a PA author myself, I can assure you this thread has nothing to do with making any writer feel like an idiot. In fact, your being allowed to post on this thread with your dissenting opinion should point out that quite the opposite is true here.


I have got a book out with PA and therefore happen to know that nothing of the kind lamented happened to me. Presumably I am unique in some way. There were no demanded qoutas of books to buy and no obligation to purchase anything.
I have no reason to invent those statements.


Third, you seem to think that all AW'ers believe that PA authors are forced to buy their books. The truth is, no, we're not forced to buy our own books, but we are pressured to buy our own books through spam advertisements sent to us by PA.

So the problem I see you having is simple misinformation. I know where you're coming from, because, aside from the argument on this thread that you've been causing these last few pages, I acted much the same way back about February, 2005, that you are here and now.

So don't think these people are out to get you: they're not. They're simply here to inform and warn other people against PA and what that company has done to other authors (many of the regular posters here, by the way, are authors that PA has hurt in some way.)

And when PA goes away and another company takes their place as Writers' Enemy #1, these same people will warn their fellow writers against the new problem.

This has nothing to do about you as a PA author. If it did, every PA author on this board would be having problems here.

I just want you to know that we respect writers here, no matter who they are or what's happened to their books. We just don't respect PA or what they do to writers who sign with them.

[JohnJStephens]

Seems I'm getting threatened again-jeez!! Who by? Is it via PM, email via AW, or direct email?. And it really a threat, or simply a disagreement? And is it really intimidating, or 'just' insulting (ie I put the word 'just' in quotes to make clear my general disapproval). Is it really a PA stooge, or someone who has taken a strong dislike to you for personal reasons?

[JohnJStephens]

Concerning Peekay...

I have no patience for you, unlike others on this boardFor what it's worth, I do not think Peekay is a PA stooge. He walks like a troll, and talks like a troll, but he doesn't SMELL like one.

I believe that he is typical PA canon fodder, no more and no less. He is an enthusiastic writer who felt that he never got the attention he deserved, until he got his 'big break' with PA. He was delighted, told his family and friends and basked in the glory.

Until reality set in, the day he googled PublishAmerica and discovered sites like AW.

I think he's just lashing out. He seems to be a very intelligent guy, and must be aware that many his claims do not make sense. But he has been very, very badly hurt, and is going through an extremely painful denial phase.

Peekay, you have my sympathy.

[Trepanny Peck]

Writing is not just a job, it used to also be an 'art form'.
If people write from within, out of urgent need, not to be 'salable' then they are to be dismissed out of hand?'


No, but publishers are businesspeople trying to make money. If you just want your writing read and don't care if it's salable, take it to Livejournal.

[DaveKuzminski]

Dang-a-roonie, Unk! That was so close to the InfoSleaze line it was spooky! And the sad thing, I imagine it'll read just that way, or close enough for jazz, at any rate.

John

Hey, James, maybe you should copyright that and then go after them for infringement if they send out a letter like that. ;)

[DeePower]

"I know if I would have published with PA I would be a little POed by all this too,"

Actually you would have been PODed.

Dee

Okay it's early I need my second cup of coffee.

[Sparhawk]

"I know if I would have published with PA I would be a little POed by all this too,"

Actually you would have been PODed.

Dee

Okay it's early I need my second cup of coffee.

:ROFL: Very good! Dee get's a point.

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=7718

Some interesting comments in this little thread... and an appearance by the ever-entertaining and creatively deceptive Vipersmile...

I'm surprised it's still up.

[DaveKuzminski]

According to one post in the above link to the PA forum someone at Tate Publishing recommended PA?:ROFL:

[rekirts]

From the PAMB:

Regardless of the marketing commitment of the publisher, ultimately it is up to the author to drive the promotion of the book, and frankly it should be.*

ARRRGGGHHH!!! Pu-lease! Any sane commercial publisher (i.e. one that makes money from selling books to the public) is not going to spend a bunch of money to bring out a book and then trust the author to make it sell. I'm sure real publishers want the writer to get right back to writing the next book.

Authors write. Publishers publish and promote.

*My emphasis.

[Sparhawk]

It's all part of the kool-aide induced delusion; YOU write the book, buy the book, promote the book and WE at Publish America collect the money.

Just like a traditional publisher. <<Laughing>> I knew I couldn't type that with a straight face.

[underthecity]

From the PAMB:[QUOTE]Regardless of the marketing commitment of the publisher, ultimately it is up to the author to drive the promotion of the book, and frankly it should be.*

I have to question where he got this fabulous information. His book isn't even out yet, and probably won't be for many months.

allen

[DaveKuzminski]

From the PAMB: Regardless of the marketing commitment of the publisher, ultimately it is up to the author to drive the promotion of the book, and frankly it should be.*
Wow, if that's how it works, I'm not going to buy another Robert A. Heinlein book until he shows up to sell it to me so I can get his autograph.

[keltora]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=7718

Some interesting comments in this little thread... and an appearance by the ever-entertaining and creatively deceptive Vipersmile...

I'm surprised it's still up.

I think the saddest one is the poster who said they went to PA because they could not afford the $4000 another publisher wanted to publish their book...

I can only shake my head. When I see this, I always wish I had known the person and been able to tell them DON'T!!!!

Money Flows Towards The Writer.

*sigh*

[James D. Macdonald]

No, no, no! You don't pay the publisher $4,000! The publisher pays you $4,000! You're the one with the thing of value!

==============

Meanwhile, another PA thread here: Agent's Interesting Observation (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=7741)

A PA author says:

From Writer's Digest, Nov 2005: "Agent Lori Perkins of the L. Perkins Agency in New York says it's much easier to market a first-time novelist's book if the word count falls between 80,000 and 100,000 words, or roughly 300 double-spaced, typed pages--the average novel length.

"One-third of the novels that come into the agency are rejected because they're too long or short, (Perkins says), "The cost greatly increases on books larger than 100,000, so agents and publishers are less likely to gamble on a manuscript the size of a dictionary." END OF QUOTE.

It's good to know we don't have that problem with Publish America, who, from my experience, publishes relatively small books as well as those exceeding 300 pages.

I thought this might be helpful to those of you, who may be holding a manuscript and wondering what to do with it. Send it to PA for review. Maybe it will jump-start your writing career. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Let me explain this, because I can see there's some confusion.

Publishers don't drive publishing. Printers don't drive publishing. Agents don't drive publishing. Bookstores don't drive publishing. Nor do editors. Not even writers drive publishing.

Do you want to know who drives publishing? It's the readers.

First thing you should know: Readers have a sticking-point when it comes to prices. That price is around $28 for a trade cloth (hardcover) book.

Second thing you should know: The unit price of a book decreases as the print run goes up.

Third thing you should know: First novels by unknowns have relatively predictable, and relatively small, sales.

Bookstores won't order books with cover prices that customers won't pay. They can fill the same shelf space with books that might move.

The longer the book, the higher the cost of printing it.

Say a book comes in at 120,000 words. Say it's a normal first novel by an unknown. The publisher figures that it'll sell perhaps 5,000 copies, which means printing and shipping around 7,000 copies.

The publisher can't do that and maintain a price point below $28, while covering their overhead and making a profit.

So they raise the cover price. What happens? Bookstores decrease their orders. So the print run has to go down. That makes the price go up. The bookstores look at the new price, and decrease their orders again. You see where this is going?

Why is all this happening? Because readers won't open their wallets for trade cloth books above $28. Not even by authors they know and like.

What's the solution? Going to PublishAmerica isn't it. Sure, PA will accept the book. They accept anything. Will this jump-start your career? No. Because however high a real publisher would have had to put the price of a hardcover, PA will put the price of a trade paperback even higher. Readers, we know, won't touch the book. You've thrown away your first rights, you're locked into an unfavorable seven-year contract, and your sales history will be horrible.

The real answer is this: Write and sell another book of a more marketable length for a first-time writer. After it comes out, and it's bought and read, you'll have fans who are looking for your next book. Then you can bring out that 120,000 word book. The publisher will be able to print enough copies to justify a $28 price point. Your fans will buy it, new readers will buy it, and you have a happy ending.

Short books, now ... novellas are very hard to sell to publishers. Why? Because readers don't buy them.

I could discuss the path that brought Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, (a first novel weighing in at 800 typeset pages) to press. Notice, please, the price point: $27.95.

How did Bloomsbury manage that? By printing a ton of them. What did they do then? They launched a huge publicity campaign to move that ton of books.

Why did they do that for Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell? Because they believed in it. Why don't they do that for every book? Because they have limited resources, even with a bank account the size of Rhode Island full of Potter-bucks backing them up. Plus, even with the biggest publicity campaign in the world, if the readers don't like the book they'll leave it lying on the shelf.

Please notice that Lori Perkins specified a "first-time novelist." Those are the ones who rely on impulse purchases in bookstores. When you're relying on impulse purchasing, it behooves you to make your book the sort of thing that readers who are buying on impulse are likely to take.

[Bufty]

I thought this might be helpful to those of you, who may be holding a manuscript and wondering what to do with it. Send it to PA for review. Maybe it will jump-start your writing career. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I may be unduly cynical in thinking this, but I see a touch of bitterness in my highlight in the quoted 'come join us' section from the above post.