The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

[XThe NavigatorX]

Sorry, dude. I just thought maybe you were 'cause of the "88" in your user name.

[ohboy88]

no worries Nav...thanks though.

[DeePower]

I don't want to post this suggestion on the board. The trolls from PA come over here all the time.

Email me mailto:authors@brianhillanddeepower.com

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[DaveKuzminski]

Someone is posting critical messages in the guestbooks of PA authors using Meiners' email address. It appears that a number of PA authors didn't recognize his name and fired off their own replies to him stating what they thought of the guestbook postings. :ha

[JohannaJ7]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...l/1620.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/1620.htm)

That thread is giving me a headache. What the hell is PA teaching those poor writers?

[James D Macdonald]

Who knows what PA is teaching them. The poor dears are making it up as they go along.

What's with this PA "editor" saying "the dialog is incorrect," and not providing any information about how or why, or fixing it herself? That's what editors are there for. That's what editors do.

If someone with posting privs at the PA board wants to send her to the Uncle Jim thread, to post her samples and ask her questions, I'll answer 'em and explain how to do dialog. Her problems are obvious, the fixes are easy.

What's with that PA "editor"?

For that matter, if one of our PA friends wants to suggest she write to me privately, I can straighten her right out.

That is distressing.

[DaveKuzminski]

It just occurred to me that the PA authors haven't yet, to my knowledge, suggested to each other that they each open a free CafePress store to assist in their marketing efforts. Then they could offer teeshirts and other products at their signings.

One author states in the topic at www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10843.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10843.htm) that he took out a personal ad for his book in the NYT.

[Whachawant]

'... I was told that anticipated circulation is 1.8 million, so I think that it's money well spent. '----a quote off of Dave's link to a thread....


1.8 million?... hmmm this guy sounds like he's predicting the lottery...

Anybody want to burst his bubble?

[DaveKuzminski]

This other topic at www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10832.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10832.htm) is just as bad. The author is promising to buy five of her books if those don't sell within 60-90 days just to get those on the shelves. I anticipate that this will not make her holidays any merrier since the payment will come due just before Christmas.

She's got courage, but it's only one store. I just don't think she sees the entire picture. Her sales can't rely upon just one store unless all she's after is a photo op. Even then, all that gives her is a memory of what might have been had PA acted like a real publisher.

[Sher2]

Anybody want to burst his bubble?

I have a feeling that bubble is going to burst itself. How much money do you suppose went down the drain for that ad?

[Whachawant]

Dave..
Are those people for real?... Not only are they paying for their own book,.. they're actually doing their own marketing campaign.

And my favourite one at the end
"I don't have a credit card to do that with, but would B&N or another store accept the idea of a check or money order for such an idea? "
---- Why don't you just bring your porcelin piggy bank with you?----

Quote ..."than to haul my carcass to the nearest book selling corporate monster to plead for their assistance in hiding my book on some shelf in hopes that passers-by will pick it up,..."----yeah you're right buddy, who would do a silly thing like that.....Oh I know,.. somebody successful.... -----


"Even if you have to buy them from Barnes and Noble you get a commission on the books when they order them! Turn around and sell them later at the same price you paid Barnes and Noble and you've made a better profit than you generally do on commission"---Gee what a great idea.. and if you pull this off more than once.. you'll cause some lawyer to become your shadow...(not quite sure but it sounds a little sketchy)---



"all that gives her is a memory of what might have been had PA acted like a real publisher."
---ah memories,... its nice to look back on all the stupid stuff you did when you were younger.... (or older)

[lindylou45]

I got this yesterday and thought James and Dave would find it interesting.

I am affiliated with an online writing website, Fanstory.com, whose owner/operator has been approached by PA with the opportunity to affiliate with them (i.e., funnel writers from fanstory into PA contracts). The owner has asked a special committee (of which I am a member) to give him feedback on this idea.

From reading your thread and others like it, I'm not impressed with the idea and don't think the site would be doing its aspiring writers any favors by steering them to PA. Everyone else on the committee--not knowing anything about PA--seems to think it's a good idea.

I'm wondering if you might be willing to give the committee an honest, "inside" perspective on the pros/cons of contracting with PA? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!


I gave her this URL and told her I would let other PA authors know. But from this email, it is very obvious that PA does indeed recruit writers.

>:

[James D Macdonald]

Like it says over at PA: "PublishAmerica has a full-time, full-fledged marketing department whose sole mission is the growth of the company."

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm" target="_new">www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm</a>

They want would-be authors to notice the words "marketing department." But that marketing department isn't there to do what the marketing department at a real publisher does. They're not selling books, they're not promoting authors -- they're promoting vanity publication with PublishAmerica.

They have to keep bringing new authors in the front door, because they sure as heck aren't making any money off their old authors. After everyone in the car pool, down at church, and in the beauty parlor has bought their copies the old authors are tapped out.

Question for you, Lindy: Is PA offering a kickback for sending authors their way?

Perhaps the easiest way to prove that PA routinely lies to authors would be to point the committee to this on the PA pages:

"Most of the time when using a science fiction publisher, or young adult publisher, the author is not permitted to retain the copyrights over their own fiction."

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/fiction-publisher/" target="_new">www.publishamerica.com/fiction-publisher/</a>

Then invite the other committee members to stroll through a bookstore and check the copyright pages of a random selection of science fiction and young adult books. While they're at the store, they can ask if any PublishAmerica books are on the shelves. Then they can ask themselves, why not.

PA has thousands of general interest titles, almost all of them nominally in print. Any random bookstore should have multiple copies of hundreds of PA books. If they don't that means that PA doesn't get bookstore distribution, regardless of their claims.

Bottom line: PublishAmerica is a POD vanity press that misleads authors about its nature in order to suck them in. Their business model is selling multiple (overpriced) copies of their own books to their authors.

[James D Macdonald]

One author states in the topic at www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10843.htm that he took out a personal ad for his book in the NYT.

This is actually a good decision, compared with buying cartons of your own book in the hopes of getting into the general PA ad.

For the price of less than 285 of his own books (including shipping), Karl Stuart Kline has gotten as much space as any of the folks who'll be in the group ad, with no uncertainty about its placement. Furthermore, he won't have to fill his attic with cases of books.

According to the <a href="http://www.nytadvertising.com/was/files/others/2004_Rate_Book_PDF_Books.pdf" target="_new">Times Rate Card</a> his ad (assuming he's getting 1/20 page) cost him $2,395. His book is $14.95 (for an 87 page collection of poetry). Since PA isn't running a special on discounts right now, each copy would cost him $7.95. If he bought 284 that's $2,257.80. Shipping would come to $144.50. Together, that's $2,402.30, and no guarantee that ten other people hadn't bought more.

Of course, buying his own ad cut PA out of the $5.92 per book or $1,681 in pure profit for the whole order (not counting whatever they make on shipping) that they'd otherwise have racked in. I wonder if that post, suggesting that authors buy their own ads, will be deleted?

His book currently has an Amazon sales rank of ... none listed. He's sold zero via Amazon.

Ingrams reports:

2 on hand
0 on order
0 on backorder
0 shipped this week
0 shipped last week
17 shipped this year
0 shipped last year

We'll see if that changes over the next month or so.

[Ed Williams 3]

...and not all the denizens of PA land are impressed...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5885.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5885.htm)

[lastr]

www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5972.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5972.htm)
So they are censoring the private board as well as the public one. This will come down soon as well.


Subject: Beware of the Stepford people
Message:
I believe in the freedom of speech! I also believe that if there is a question to be asked and answered, that it should be allowed. Twice I have posted a general questions, and twice it has been removed- from both this forum and the private one. I have not been bashing anyone or anything, only inquiring. Nor have I been vulgar or insulting. I have seen several times where posts have been removed and this is making me very angry. I have gone to battle for this company, facing tough adversaries in the process. Stop removing posts.

RE: Beware of the Stepford people
Message:
I can understand your frustration and I have, on many occassion, said "I hate censorship."
However, having said that I think you should probably ask this question to the PA stuff in a private forum not a public one. You may get your answer quicker and not burn any bridges in the process.

Message:

Trust me XXXXX I would do just that, if I knew where to send it that they would read it and respond. I have seen several complaints on this subject. Obviously, someone is reading these to remove them. What good are these forums if it is all cheers and delight? It is a place for constructive information and announcements. I came here in the first place, to learn. For many months I read these boards, and posted nothing. I'm not one for a lot of superficial chatter. If I say something, it has a purpose.

[James D Macdonald]

Woo! That was fast! That thread's gone already.

I've heard that an entire thread has been deleted over on the Secret Private Board.

Sounds very much like the Logo doesn't want folks to find out that Soylent Green is made of people.

[D Dawes]

Is it the norm for PublishAmerica to take this long to pay its authors royalties on their sales, or have they reached the point, along with everything else they are being sued for, they simply don't care about the number of authors filing complaints with the FTC based on non-payment of royalties?

Has anyone received a reasonable explanation for the delay? Inquiring minds want to know.


Here’s the web link to the FTC where you can file your online complaints. www.ftc.gov/ (http://www.ftc.gov/)

[publishorperish]

I know this is not why you posted this and I know that this is blunt, but H.B Marcus (whoever he is) is neither funny nor a good/decent/passable writer. That Mr Platt (Randy) is hilarious though.

[Dhewco]

This is a cross between a PA and a 'weird' agent post. Why would an agent send their authors to PA. Jillanne Kimble tried this on a friend of mine who did her homework. My friend then told her no, don't send it. www.kimblemckay.netfirms.com/ (http://www.kimblemckay.netfirms.com/) is the Agent's website.

I'm wondering whether or not she sends the author their share of the $1 advance or whether it is added to the cost of being their agent LOL.

So why would even a crooked agent send an author to a place like PA? :shrug

[D Dawes]

James thanks for the web link. PA dragged me into its toxic business relationship by sending me an unsolicited email, but they denied it. Here's the publisher’s response to my letter to the AG concerning this matter:

PublishAmerica is home to almost 9,000 authors, none of whom have been recruited by or through Public Relations people, as Ms. Dawes contends. Throughout our 5-year history, we have never hired the services of such agencies, nor do we have a PR department on our staff. We do not solicit our authors, instead every single one of them has solicited us...We are currently receiving more than 20,000 inquiries from authors who want to join our ranks, per year.

Our staff is not small; presently we have more than 60 fulltime employees, which makes us one of the biggest non-government employers in Frederick County, and certainly the fastest growing. The Text editing department alone counts a staff of 32. Next month, we are scheduled to double our office space, which will allow us to grow our staff to more than 100 employees.

There's more but I'll spare you the tedium of reading all the supercilious rants...I had to edit out most of it as I read it. Sheesh!

Office of the Attorney General
Attn: Mr. Larry E. Munson
138 E. Antietam St.
Hagerstown, MD 21740

[James D Macdonald]

Line by line time!

<Blockquote>
PublishAmerica is home to almost 9,000 authors, none of whom have been recruited by or through Public Relations people, as Ms. Dawes contends.</Blockquote>

No, they were recruited by Marketing people.

<Blockquote>
Throughout our 5-year history, we have never hired the services of such agencies,...</Blockquote>

The guys who solicit authors are in house. They don't hire an outside agency.

<Blockquote>
... nor do we have a PR department on our staff.</Blockquote>

Nope, it's the Marketing Department!

That's their <A HREF="http://www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm" target="_new">"... full-time, full-fledged marketing department whose sole mission is the growth of the company." </A>[Emphasis mine.]

Ms. Dawes, have you shown the AG the text of the letter they sent you soliciting your book? Have you talked with a private attorney?

[vstrauss]

Lindy, contact me at victoria@victoriastrauss.com and I'll send you my detailed analysis of PA, which you could pass on to your group.

- Victoria

[CWGranny]

Because without companies like PA, scam agents have no sales. If they send all their clients to PA (after a suitable wait in which they pretend they are sending to Harper Collins and such) and PA accepts all their clients, then the agent can claim 100% success in placing all manuscripts and give clueless recruits book titles and author names. Much better bait.

Scammers LOVE PA. They also love clueless new mom-and-pop publishers who don't realize that by reading submissions from scam agents, they are helping the scammers steal from more authors.

gran

[CaoPaux]

Be sure to track down the foreign listings, too.

LaVerne, this place is still listing your book with the original cover. German, I think (http://www.firstsfind-shop.de/shop-mode-books_de_intl_us-search_type-AuthorSearch-input_string-Laverne+Ross-locale-de.html)

ETA: Babelfish tells me that its listed as only available "used", but I think you'd still want to get that cover off.

[JohannaJ7]

I know this is not why you posted this and I know that this is blunt, but H.B Marcus (whoever he is) is neither funny nor a good/decent/passable writer. That Mr Platt (Randy) is hilarious though.
I couldn't make it all the way through H.B's story, because I like my humour funny, but I will say that threads always get fun when Randy enters--because the others attack him like a pack of wolves going for the Omega. It's made even funnier by the fact that he seems to be right most of the time.

They expect nothing less than a manuscript free of grammatical and punctuation errors plus perfect character development, plot synchronization, tension filled and with a voice that is strong. - from www.kimblemckay.netfirms.com/ (http://www.kimblemckay.netfirms.com/)
Because those editors at publishing houses don't do squat to mss, eh? One spelling-error or factual error and you're out! Wouldn't want to give the copyeditors something to do, now would we?

After reading stuff like that I'm not surprised so many new authors are paranoid.

[lindylou45]

Question for you, Lindy: Is PA offering a kickback for sending authors their way?

I'm not sure, but knowing PA, I would sincerely doubt it. I've given her this URL, so hopefully she will read the posts here.

[James D Macdonald]

They also love clueless new mom-and-pop publishers who don't realize that by reading submissions from scam agents...

Yeah, that reminds me. Our old pals ST Literary of Boca Raton, FL, are claiming a second sale!

This one is to a brand new "LDS" publisher, Mapletree Publishing of Mt. Vernon, Iowa -- a company with a four books out, Amazon numbers in the one and two million range. Their bestseller has an Amazon number around 700,000. Needless to say, an agent is not required to sell there.

Mapletree (http://www.mapletreepublishing.com/) says on their page that their ability to pay advances will be limited by their cashflow, but that fees are negotiable.

The book, A Marriage Built to Last by Rev. Billy Crone, is due out next summer.

[D Dawes]

James, unfortunately, I no longer have the email to confirm that PA’s predators recruited me. I received it over a year ago. I eventually deleted it along with all the other Spam I receive, but for the sake of other aspiring authors, I wish I had had the foresight to save it.

In references to speaking to an attorney, I have a friend who’s an attorney, but he does not have the jurisdiction to bring an action in the state of Maryland. However, he has advised me that I can sue for damages because the publisher approved my request to terminate the contract in June based on the fact that they had breached the contract. Yet, they are refusing to relinquish my final requisition papers and is thereby creating a hardship for me since it is inhibiting me from shopping my book to other publishers.

In addition, PA is still profiting from my book after the contract has been terminated; yet, the only royalty payment I received was in February and it was in the amount of $1.89.

If the following online bookstores show that my book is selling, but PA claims there’s no reason to send me a royalty check, how can anyone ever trust a word they say?
www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos...06-2361638 (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1413707769/702-6952706-2361638)
search.barnesandnoble.com...7769&itm=3 (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=35W50CM7P9&isbn=1413707769&itm=3)

[publishorperish]

"but he does not have the jurisdiction to bring an action in the state of Maryland. "

Is he saying that *you* don't have jurisdiction to bring an action in Maryland? Because jurisdiction does not lay with the attorney. Jurisdiction hinges on where you live, where Publish American is incorporated, where its "nerve center" (main center of operations) is located, whether it has contacts where you live, etc.... Basically, my point is that whether or not there is jurisdiction hinges on you and PA, NOT on the attorney. IMHO, I think it you brought a case against PA in state court, you'd have a decent chance of withstanding any challenge to jurisdiction. Otherwise (and if the claim is for more than 75K), you could bring in federal district court.


OOPS! I'm not a lawyer either...just a friendly, helpful law student with Civil Procedure on the the brain. Definitely, clarify this (and your lawyer friend's advice) with an attorney.

[James D Macdonald]

...he does not have the jurisdiction to bring an action in the state of Maryland.

Do you mean "isn't licensed in the state of Maryland"?

If PA does business in your state, you might be able to bring suit there. Talk with lawyers. Pay them for their time. (Make sure it's someone who specializes in intellectual property/entertainment/publishing -- it's a specialized area.)

I am not a lawyer. Please talk to someone who is.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In references to speaking to an attorney, I have a friend who’s an attorney, but he does not have the jurisdiction to bring an action in the state of Maryland.<hr></blockquote>
Please, please, please, give yourself the gift of not only going to a lawyer, but one who specializes in literary law. These people know the ins and outs with precision and detail; far more than a general attorney. Invariably, they don't have to practice in Maryland in order to do what needs to be done. Not only that, but they won't take your firstborn or the food out of your mouth. If your work is worth fighting for, go for the best. I cannot emphasize this enough.

[publishorperish]

Furthermore, do not just go with the first lawyer you meet with or who is suggested to you. Do your homework. Go to the <a href="http://lawyers.martindale.com/xp/Martindale/home.xml" target="_new">martin-dale hubbell website</a>. Research attorneys through your state bar and local bar. Make sure they are knowledgeable, fair, and that their credentials are solid.

[James D Macdonald]

Write to cepetit@authorslawyer.com -- tell him I sent you.

[priceless1]

Thank you, Uncle Jim. You read my mind.

[DeePower]

I just thought you all might be interested in how it's going.

May 10 sent PA a letter by registered mail that we are demanding to terminate our contract.

May 17th Faxed a letter to Meiners giving them until May 21 to respond or we were turning the matter over to our attorney

May 21 received email from Support@publishamerica.com saying they had thrown away unread our letter and would discard unread any communication other than through support@publishamerica.com, and then proceeded to answer the points in our letter,which remember they said they threw away unread.

May 21 asked our law firm to demand termination of our contract.

June 11 our law firm sent Meiners a letter to terminate our contract.

July 7 received email from support@publishamerica.com that they would make a decision in the near future.

July 19 received email from support@publishamerica.com that they threw away the letter from our attorney and made some nasty accusations concerning our attorney. And that they would make a decision at their leisure.

July 20 emailed our attorney we would go to litigation if necessary.

August 19 faxed and emailed Meiners and Prather that they had had enought time we expect a decision by the August 24.

August 23 received letter agreeing to end the contract (it was sent August 20) and the settlement and release agreement -- with the ridiculous clauses and nondisparage paragraph.

August 23 emailed our attorney and forwarded the the settlement and release agreement, told her we didn't want to sign. Agreed to send Meiners a simple settlement and release

September 1 faxed Meiners saying we wouldn't be signing the PA settlement and release, our attorney would be sending him an alternative letter.

September 3 filed a complaint against PublishAmerica with the Maryland District Attorney.

And that's where we are.

It has been four months. And oddly enough I haven't received a royalty statement for this last period.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[arrowqueen]

They're awfully good at throwing away letters, unread. Must be like a ticker-tape parade outside their offices!

I must see if the same thing works with bills.

Cheers,
aq

[Sher2]

May 10 sent PA a letter by registered mail that we are demanding to terminate our contract.

May 21 received email from Support@publishamerica.com saying they had thrown away unread our letter and would discard unread any communication other than through support@publishamerica.com, and then proceeded to answer the points in our letter,which remember they said they threw away unread.

July 19 received email from support@publishamerica.com that they threw away the letter from our attorney and made some nasty accusations concerning our attorney. And that they would make a decision at their leisure.


If you have the signed Registered mail receipt, hang onto it; it's proof that the letter was received.

I suppose it would be pointless to ask them (other than in Interrogatories duly served on them) how they were able to intuit what the letter said if they, in fact, discarded it unread.

Did they claim also to throw away unread the letter from your attorney alluded to in the 7/19 e-mail? Was that letter sent Registered or Certified? If so, the receipt, again, is proof that they got it. I hope you kept a hard copy of that e-mail; I'm sure your attorney would be interested to know about the accusations about him/her, as will the judge if and when this debacle makes it into a courtroom.

[JohannaJ7]

I love the PublishBritannica website. It's full of little gems, such as this one:

Nothing -- and we mean NOTHING -- is better for a book than a proactive author. The more an author does to promote their book, the more success they will find.

And my favourite, concerning booksignings:

Once the bookshop has agreed to host the event, you'll want to make sure that it is properly advertised. Make certain the bookshop orders enough copies for the event. Ask them to display the books near the registers for the week preceding the event-highlighting the book in such a way will increase attendance.

Buddah on a biscuit, they're funny.

[Sher2]

Buddah on a biscuit, they're funny.

Ain't they, though? I'd be ashamed if I were them. It's PA, though -- they have no shame.

[JohannaJ7]

That's what amazes me--that they can keep a straight face, even while coming up with the most ludicrous of claims. I'd feel pretty bad about myself if it was my job to scam people, especially first-time writers who max out their creditcards for the sake of their dream.

[DaveKuzminski]

I think the post by CEP over in www.mindsightseries.com/c.../4350.html (http://www.mindsightseries.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-auth.cgi?lm=1095366784&file=/3831/4350.html) at Mindsight has something important to bring up with an attorney. Title 22 of the Maryland Commercial Law may be one of the tools needed to bring them in line with reality.

Oops, corrected a misspelling. Really, I can spell. Just did that one too quickly. :o

[D Dawes]

Lynn, James, Dave, Dee, and publishorperish thank you for sharing your wisdom with me. I appreciate the excellent advice you’ve given. I will utilize the info and contact those whom you recommended.

Dolores

[corporatenegro]

Hi there,

Well, it looks like I’ve been banned from the PA Message board. It only took two posts to accomplish this task. My first post was a press release about getting a new literary agent to represent my upcoming book. (You linked to it here. Now the post has disappeared.) Some people started congratulating me. Some asked legitimate questions. Everything was going fine, until the paranoid natives started asking questions.

Why didn’t you mention PA?

Um, because PA is not publishing my next book.

Then there were more questions. I gave more answers, some of them quite funny. The next thing you know…POOF! The post was gone.

My next post, which wasn’t malicious at all, asked PA authors how they overcame the obstacles of getting their books in bookstores and being turned down for reviews by major publications. After two honest replies from other authors…POOF! It was gone too. I guess it brought out the flaws of print on demand, which is a big no no.

Today, I tried to sign in on the board and surprise! My password didn’t work. (I hear the witch hunt is on!)

I’ve been reading the posts on this message board for a long time now. Here are some things I’d like to share:

I knew about the obstacles of having a print on demand book but I had a plan. My main goal was to get a writing credit. I didn’t send them my best work either. I didn’t care about royalties, and surely didn’t plan on getting rich. And I wasn’t about to purchase any of my own books. As a result, my $30.00 investment in a copyright got me 2 copies of my book, a little bit of royalty money, and tons of publicity. Since the book’s publication, I’ve had several short stories and essays published (for money). I’ve been writing reviews for The Midwest Book Review, which is a nice writing credit, gives you access to authors, publishers, and PR folks, and gets you free books. Now I have a legitimate literary agent who loves my next book and is ready to help me get to the next level. Plus, he had no problem with the fact that my first book was print on demand.

What has bothered me? The ridiculously high retail price of the books is one thing. The opinion from other authors that PA has done them a favor by publishing their books, instead of seeing it as a business arrangement where they make the majority of the money is another. (It’s not like there aren’t other print on demand publisher that wouldn’t gladly do the same.) What really trips me out is authors who publish more than one book with them. I would have never done such a thing. The book signing fiasco at the mall last year was interesting too. I agreed because the bookstore manager agreed to purchase books. This was one time I knew the no returns policy would work to my advantage. It would have been automatic royalties. (Even though the signing didn’t happen, I still got free publicity in the local newspapers.)

So, I say to you. Don’t feel sorry for all of the PA authors. Some of us know exactly what we were doing. Most of us move on afterwards.

I do have a question. I saw that someone posted how many books a PA author sold through Ingram. Can you show me how to do that by posting the instructions here? My book has been doing okay on BN.com. I don’t want to get cheated out of the few royalties I’ve earned.

Feel free to ask me questions. Just don’t e-mail me. My virus checking software has been working overtime.

Later,

The Corporate Negro

[DaveKuzminski]

Welcome. Feel free to email me. I'm already in good shape as far as viruses and such go since I'm targeted so frequently to begin with.

[Sher2]

My next post, which wasn’t malicious at all, asked PA authors how they overcame the obstacles of getting their books in bookstores and being turned down for reviews by major publications. After two honest replies from other authors…POOF! It was gone too. I guess it brought out the flaws of print on demand, which is a big no no.

Today, I tried to sign in on the board and surprise! My password didn’t work. (I hear the witch hunt is on!)


I remember your posts and figured it was only a matter of time before the natives came after you with burning torches. Best of luck to you in your post-PA career.

[Whachawant]

Seems to me that if P.A. spent more time doing regular business services and less editing on their boards
..they might be able to run the company professionally. The amount of email they must be receiving must be immense, and to search through to find something derogatory to their existence must take time.....it would be within their best interest to change their ways, but, previous complaints have proved:money other wise, seems that they can achieve anything they want. Just like any temporary scam, ..when the going gets tough...the man with the most money bolts.....""""

[James D Macdonald]

For the shipping information from Ingram's, just call (615) 213-6803 from a touch-tone phone. Have your ISBN ready.

===========

Welcome.

===========

You know why you were banned, right? Any mention that PA authors have a hard time getting their books stocked in bookstores is deadly. The idea that they'll get their books stocked nationwide is one of the impressions that PA tries hardest to place in new and naive authors' minds.

===========

You say "Since the book’s publication, I’ve had several short stories and essays published (for money). I’ve been writing reviews for The Midwest Book Review..."

Have you considered that all of those things could have/would have happened even if you'd never come within a mile of PA or any other vanity press?

True, since you didn't buy any copies of your own book, you weren't treating PA as a vanity, but still. The principle remains.

[aka eraser]

You can get Ingram's info by calling 615-213-6803 and keying in your ISBN at the prompt.

(I hope I got the number right.)

[XThe NavigatorX]

there's a 1800 number that works now too, but I keep losing it.

[James D Macdonald]

Here's PA's retailer information:

<BLOCKQUOTE>

We offer the following retailer discounts:

1-50 copies: 40%
51-100 copies: 45%
101+ copies: 50%

Our books are not returnable, and we require pre-payment by credit card (Visa, MasterCard, or American Express) or check or money order. Retailers may place an order by calling us at 301-695-1707.
</BLOCKQUOTE>

So -- where's this "we have to wait 90 days to get our money" stuff coming from? Prepayment by credit card, check or money order sounds a lot like Cash Up Front.

[XThe NavigatorX]

heh. The authors are better off calling up and pretending they're a retailer. They only get 20% off and no royalties on small orders.

[XThe NavigatorX]

btw, this thread www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10857.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10857.htm) makes me want to throttle someone. Spam? SPAM??

Okay, back to work. grrrrrrr.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>btw, this thread www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10857.htm makes me want to throttle someone. Spam? SPAM??<hr></blockquote>
<img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/image/posticons/pi_freak.gif" /> Yeech, as if we don't acquire enough of this sort of garbage as it is. I think this is more of a guarantee of how NOT to get your book sold. <img border=0 src="http://www.absolutewrite.com/images/emoteHammer.gif" />

[publishorperish]

Why not go through your phone book and telemarket? Or fax every business in town? Go door to door? Set up shop outside of Walmart like the girl scouts?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that these type of campaigns would work for fiction books. There is an inherent disconnect between writing a novel and schlepping it all over town as if it were a box of cookies. I had a short stint as a telemarketer in high school. People hated me and it took like a zillion calls before anyone bit (I'm a crappy salesperson).

Also, if you *want* to be the sole salesperson of your book, why not just use cafe press, buy your own isbn, copyright the dang thing and sell it like that??

People who go with PA love to tout the mantra *Except for the copyright, I didn't pay a thing!*

But you DID pay a lot! Not just in buying your own books, you also paid in your own time, in investing your money on a bad marketing plan, etc etc.

Fiction is art, fiction is a form of entertainment, fiction is not a commodity....

[publishorperish]

Why not go through your phone book and telemarket? Or fax every business in town? Go door to door? Set up shop outside of Walmart like the girl scouts?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that these type of campaigns would work for fiction books. There is an inherent disconnect between writing a novel and schlepping it all over town as if it were a box of cookies. I had a short stint as a telemarketer in high school. People hated me and it took like a zillion calls before anyone bit (I'm a crappy salesperson).

Also, if you *want* to be the sole salesperson of your book, why not just use cafe press, buy your own isbn, copyright the dang thing and sell it like that??

People who go with PA love to tout the mantra *Except for the copyright, I didn't pay a thing!*

But you DID pay a lot! Not just in buying your own books, you also paid in your own time, in investing your money on a bad marketing plan, etc etc.

Fiction is art, fiction is a form of entertainment, fiction is not a commodity....
Readers vote not only with their pocketbooks, but with their minds...
I don't know how most people choose what to read, but I do so by perusing the New York Times Book Review, the library, bookstores, and amazon/bn for books I might like...I especially love entertaining and well-written reviews (Not cheap praise written by someone else who can't write).

One more thing, if the book is over a certain price I WON'T BUY IT! If I really really really want to read a hardcover book that just came out, I'll go to the library and check it out. There is no way in hades that i will buy a $20 paperback book (I don't buy cds, either.) I'm avid reader. I'm also cheap.

/rant over

[aka eraser]

That planning-to-spam PA author is in for a rude awakening. His inbox will fill quickly with irate letters from folks vowing to NEVER purchase a book of his and he'll be flamed out of existence on a lot of those message boards.

I'm a proponent of subtle (WFDWYTK) understated (check out my signature!) near-subliminal (frankbaron.com rocks!) ways of reaching folks.

But heck, that's just the kind of guy I am. :grin

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There is an inherent disconnect between writing a novel and schlepping it all over town as if it were a box of cookies.<hr></blockquote>
Quite right. It's the author's job to write the book. Let the publisher market it.

[CaoPaux]

From that PA thread:

Word of mouth has long been the best advertisement. When someone likes something they typically tell 10 people about it, and when they hate it... about 15.
And post the spam on warning boards. Excuse me, I need to do something....

*whomps poster with cluebat*

Thank you. I feel better. :ack

[James D Macdonald]

Spam. Oh, joy. Along with University Degrees from Prestigious Unaccredited Colleges and CH34P V14GR4, I'll get offers for PublishAmerica novels. From all 9,000 happy authors? Just what I friggin' needed.

This is on a line with going to bookstores, ordering your book under an assumed name, and never picking it up.

I wonder how long it'll take 'em to reinvent the cute stunt that a bunch of iUniverse and Xlibris authors already ran into the ground -- going to newsgroups and posting breathless recommendations for their own books, also under assumed names.

Does anyone want me to post a bunch of Stupid Internet Marketing Ideas that Don't Work but At Least Make You Feel You're Doing Something and Don't Cost Anything (other than your time and self respect and possibly your internet account)?

Effective marketing is a specialty. People who are good at it do it as a full-time job, for which they get paid. Unless you're a freakin' genius Professor-Harold-Hill-Sends-Me-A-Christmas-Card-Every-Year natural-born salesman this isn't something to try at home in your spare time. (And if you are that kind of salesperson, what are you doing wasting your time writing books?)

Bob's dad owns a barn, and Sue's mom can sew the costumes! C'mon, kids, let's put on a publicity campaign!

[DaveKuzminski]

Have they forgotten the basic tenet of publishing?

Write a good book to begin with.

[publishorperish]

Stupid Internet Marketing Ideas that Don't Work but At Least Make You Feel You're Doing Something and Don't Cost Anything

Yes please post! I need to laugh!

<a href="http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/2800049" target="_new">100,000 reasons to turn in spammers</a>

[Whachawant]

...Thanks for the heads up XThe NavigatorX...

I'll have to increase the security on my Browser and email to block that bozo.
Strangely enough, not only will people react negatively to his spam marketing campaign.. He also won't sell any books cause he's using a third rate P.O.D. publisher.

Check out this quote.

"On 2000 emails with direct marketing, theoretically you stand to sell 400 copies. Non-Direct would yield about 100. "----ya good luck with that... has anybody tried to send out 2000 emails.... by themselves.. that's alot of work.----

Obviously this guy is just another dreamer waiting to run into the wall of disappointment.

Check out this irony......

"-----SPAM-----"

[publishorperish]

If I think my good is good, doesn't that make it good? If those arrogant NYC houses won't publish it, doesn't it mean that they are just stuck up? Life is unfair.

[James D Macdonald]

Stupid Internet Marketing Ideas That Don't Work

Amazon subdivision

Go to Amazon. Find the hundred top-selling books that resemble yours in any way. Write reviews of those books (you don't have to read the books, just review them). Make sure your reviews are glowing five-star reviews. In the course of your review, say "This is the best book I've read since [Title and author of your book]." Post this as "A reader" from [Somewhere other than where you live].

Go to Amazon. Find the top hundred books in your category. You know those "recommended in addition to" links? Put in your book. If you have all your friends do this, you can have Lots of folks recommending your book "in addition to" the top-selling book.

Go to Amazon. Find the top-twenty best-selling books in your category. Make a list in the List-o-mania section. Put in those top twenty books, and your book. That way, any time one of those top books comes up, there's a chance your list will come up too. And if someone looks at the list, that someone will be looking right at your book!

Go to Amazon. Write a glowing review of your own book as "A Reader." For more fun, have all your friends write glowing reviews too. Try to spread 'em out in time, and sprinkle in a few four-star reviews to make it look realistic. If they review your book, you can review theirs! One hand washes the other... (and while you're at it, they can be the ones doing the "in addition to" check boxes).

Now, General Web:

Set up a web page about Your Book. Make sure it has a link to Amazon! Throw in a guestbook and a counter. Make the address of your webpage your sig for e-mail. Geocities is Great! Don't forget to enter it in all the search engines! And join web rings. Lots of web rings! Guest book! Counter! Flash animation! Graphics! Music! Make your page stand out. Get a list of the top fifty search terms at Google, and put them in the Meta-tag keywords.

Go to all those Free Ad Sites. (Google on "free ads") Type in ads for Your Book!

Go to PRWeb. Post your press release! A new press release every month isn't too much.

Go to various web boards. Enter, and post links to your webpage in random groups on assorted boards!

Do this in the middle of the night on a Friday when the administrators (who can delete the posts and lock you out) are asleep or away.

General Internet:

Get a list of e-mail addresses. Some folks call it lunch meat, but I call it Spam! Send nice chatty letters to thousands of unsuspecting strangers. If they only knew about your book they'd buy it, right? Make sure your letter has your ISBN and a link to your web page! The more thousands of strangers you can reach out and touch, the better. (You can get software packages that'll do this automatically, but doing it by hand is free.) Here's a bunch of tricks (http://www.jgc.org/tsc/) for getting past those pesky spam filters. They didn't mean to keep you out, did they?

Go to newsgroups. Hundreds of them. Thousands of them. Using a false name, go in and post a breathless announcement about your book. Don't forget to explain how you came across this book by accident, and make sure that you include ordering information.

Here's a made-up example:

<Blockquote>Hi! My name is Mortimer Glatzbier. The other day I was cleaning out the cat box when I saw a book that my friend Bob must have left lying around the last time he visited. It was The Apocalypse Door by James D. Macdonald. I'd never heard of either the book or the author, and it didn't look like the kind of book I like, but I picked it up. Before I finished the first sentence I was hooked! This book is the best book I've ever read. I asked my friend Bob who this James D. Macdonald who wrote The Apocalypse Door is, but he didn't know. Can anyone tell me who he is?! I must know if he wrote anything else, because I'm going to buy it! This is the best book I've ever read, and James D. Macdonald has to be the best author writing in English today! I can't believe that he isn't on the top of the New York Times Best Seller Chart! I'm going to have a sex change operation just so I can bear his love child!

I'm going to go over to Amazon.com right now and write a five-star review of this book. Everyone should go over there and write a five star review! Then I'm going to nominate it for a Hugo, a Nebula, an Edgar, a Howie, and a Rita. Then I'm going to read it again! The Apocalypse Door (by James D. Macdonald, a person I don't even know) is that perfect book that everyone will love!!!! You can get it at Amazon.com, at Barnes&Noble, or special order it at your local bookstore! It's got an ISBN number of 0312869886 (you'll need that to special order it). Don't forget to review it at Amazon, because you'll be totally amazed by this wonderful book by an author I'd never heard of before today!!!!!
</blockquote>

[CaoPaux]

...going to newsgroups and posting breathless recommendations for their own books, also under assumed names.
They already do this. And when they're called on it, everyone is “just jealous of their success".

And I've also seen calls on the PA boards for their fellows to do the "in addition to" thing.

It's getting hard to maintain any sympathy for these folks, I regret to say.

:head

So, who's got a sub to the NYT? The "partnership" is supposed to be revealed this Sunday.

(Sunday, Sunday, Sunday! Be there, be there, be there!)

[James D Macdonald]

They already do this.

This is all stuff that they already do. See how useless it is?

[ProandCon]

CaoPaux

[James D Macdonald]

CaoPaux

Ah, a man of few words is our Proandcon.

<HR>

It's getting hard to maintain any sympathy for these folks, I regret to say.

I've got nothing but sympathy for them. They're stuck in an impossible position. What can they do? They love their books, and they're seeing horrid things happen.

If my child were sick unto death, and I heard a rumor that standing on one foot until dawn might help him get better, you'd better believe I'd be up on one foot all night long.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The Apocalypse Door (by James D. Macdonald, a person I don't even know) is that perfect book that everyone will love!!!! You can get it at Amazon.com, at Barnes&Noble, or special order it at your local bookstore! It's got an ISBN number of 0312869886 (you'll need that to special order it).<hr></blockquote>
LOL, Jim. Whenever I've gone cross-eyed from reading too much, I invariably find something to make me smile. You made me laugh out loud. Thanks.

[vstrauss]

>> Go to Amazon. Find the hundred top-selling books that resemble yours in any way. Write reviews of those books (you don't have to read the books, just review them).<<

Hey, it seems to have worked for Robert Stanek (he of the infamous Ruin Mist books).

- Victoria

[CaoPaux]

Agreed, Jim. But for the Grace of God go I.

[publishorperish]

I have to ask: Why infamous? (I went to amazon and checked him out...story line seems vaguely familiar...)

[AnneMarble]

btw, this thread www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10857.htm makes me want to throttle someone. Spam? SPAM??

It's because of authors like this that the romance reader YahooGroup I moderate no longer allows promotional posts from AuthorHouse authors, iUniverse authors, and PA authors, etc. We do allow authors (and web sites) to post promotional posts as long as they followed rules. But the only ones I had to ban because they couldn't follow those rules were published by PA or similar publishers. Sometimes, it was because they were ignorant of netiquette, but in some cases, I think it's because they were so desperate.

What's sad is that they could have joined the list and actually followed the rules, particpated in discussions, posted a promo only now and then, and they might have made a name for themselves. There are some authors on the list published nontraditionally who do this, and people buy their books because they like the authors' posts. It's actually less work than harvesting those e-mail addresses, and it won't get you in trouble with your ISP.

Look, nobody is going to buy an author's book because they joined a YahooGroup and told everybody about their "great new sci-fi" novel or whatever. (Available for only $19.95 from...) In fact, some authors have really really screwed up (can I say screwed? :grin ) their reputations by spamming their books on mailing lists, usenet, etc.

Don't get me wrong. There are some traditionally published authors who screw up in the publicity seeking department. But they are usually outnumbered and outpaced by vanity and "vanityish" authors.

[DeePower]

I received an email that said her/his PA book couldn't be sold or even ordered because of something called "a one source set up"

"one source set up title, (have no clue what that is) that is preventing WaldenBooks from selling my book."

What is that? Why would it prevent books from being sold or even ordered.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[AnneMarble]

Hey, it seems to have worked for Robert Stanek (he of the infamous Ruin Mist books).

But didn't he do that by writing bad reviews of new books by other fantasy authors? :grr And then IIRC each review said something like "If you want to read a really good fantasy novel, get Blah Blah Blah by Robert Stanek." However, people did figure him out. There was even a short bit about this in Ansible (an SF newsletter you can get via e-mail).

The sad thing is that for a while, his books ended up relatively high on the Amazon fantasy best-seller list. FWIW he had fairly high Amazon rankings, higher than some legit authors I knew who had wonderful new books out at that time. :bang

[RealityChuck]

Where the heck did that PA poster get those "statistics"? A 5% return would be considered fantastic for a direct mailing to a targeted audience; to expect 5% return from e-mail spam is absurd. 0.00005% is more in line with reality; why else do they sell millions of e-mail addresses for a couple of hundred dollars?

My guess is that the "statistics" came from whoever sold him his spamming software.

[DaveKuzminski]

Anyone know of any authors who've taken the reverse approach of telling everyone that their book is awful just to see how many would buy it to find out if the book is really that bad?

[Sher2]

I received an email that said her/his PA book couldn't be sold or even ordered because of something called "a one source set up"

"one source set up title, (have no clue what that is) that is preventing WaldenBooks from selling my book."

What is that? Why would it prevent books from being sold or even ordered.


I've never heard of that. I know that there are a number of reasons which prevent bookstores from selling these books, not the least of which is the no-returns policy, but I've never heard of "one source set up." I'll be interested to learn what that is.

[Sher2]

Anyone know of any authors who've taken the reverse approach of telling everyone that their book is awful just to see how many would buy it to find out if the book is really that bad?


I haven't heard of anyone doing it, but it's certainly a novel approach. I know of a book it would probably work on, too. LOL.

About the great spamming idea -- aren't people going to jail these days for doing that?

[CaoPaux]

Anyone know of any authors who've taken the reverse approach of telling everyone that their book is awful just to see how many would buy it to find out if the book is really that bad?
No, but some PA books are being sought because folks think they are that bad. As in, they want them to replace Eye of Argon in their workshops. (To be fair, books from other vanity publishers are meeting the same fate.)

What a choice: anonymity or ignominy.

:gone

[James D Macdonald]

If someone wants to buy one of my books in order to mock it, that's great! Here, I've got more books you can mock. Want to buy copies of them too?

[CaoPaux]

Well, I am looking for a certain first edition of yours.... :)

[lastr]

www.libraryjournal.com/article/CA272490?display=criticas&pubdate=2%2F1%2F03 (http://www.libraryjournal.com/article/CA272490?display=criticas&pubdate=2%2F1%2F03) This is a One Source program at Ingrams, and may be what they are talking about.

"Ingram Book Group's new partnership with Grupo ILHSA, the prominent Argentine retail group, promises improved U.S. distribution of Spanish-language books published overseas. Announced on January 2, this deal will significantly expand the number of Ingram's Spanish-language offerings for U.S. buyers. Ingram will now be able to provide approximately 70,000 Spanish-language titles at trade discount prices through its One Source program."

[JohannaJ7]

Let's see how long it takes before Spam-Guy is reported to his e-mail provider. (And how long it takes for his inbox to fill with angry replies).

[Whachawant]

www.publishamerica.com/co...C05820.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/conventions/Frederick/html/DSC05820.htm)

Here's some major marketing for ya.. this is a photo of all the would be authors at there convention.. and their marketing their books through a 'no name' book store.

I wonder if they had to pay for the luxurious HOLIDAY INN that they stayed at .....and/or the coach ride.???

I guess the private jet was getting its rubber band changed........

[lindylou45]

is a photo of all the would be authors at there convention.. and their marketing their books through a 'no name' book store.

They certainly look happy about it, too.

[reph]

Join lots of Yahoo!groups? Post messages advertising your book? Uh.

There's a reason that Yahoo!group administrators have the option of screening messages from new members before releasing them to the group.

You may call it lunch meat, and Uncle Jim may call it spam, but I'm calling it baloney.

[Whachawant]

You may call it lunch meat, and Uncle Jim may call it spam, but I'm calling it baloney.

.....Now that.. is funny....:rofl

[James D Macdonald]

Observe this astounding response from the Logo over on the PA boards:

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6013.htm" target="_new">Copyright</a>

<blockquote>

By contract the copyright is already taken out in your name. Your signature and PA's sealed that. The copyright is yours, and you keep it. That's all the law wants to know.
It's your option to also register it with the Library of Congress if you want, and many authors do this, but that's all it is, an extra registration.</blockquote>

Actually, their contract doesn't have a thing to do with it. Copyright, in the sense they're talking about it, exists from the moment a work is created in tangible form -- from the moment it's typed. This is covered <a href="http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html" target="_new">here</a>.


(With real publishers, the publisher registers the copyright in the author's name at the publisher's expense.)

So now it's the author's option to register the copyright? What will that do to PA's claim that every book is listed in the Library of Congress? We already know that they don't get CIP data -- some aren't registered either?

PA really ought to acquaint themselves with copyrights.

Here's something else that they should know:

<A HREF="http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#mdw"
MANDATORY DEPOSIT FOR WORKS PUBLISHED IN THE UNITED STATES</a><BLOCKQUOTE>
Although a copyright registration is not required, the Copyright Act establishes a mandatory deposit requirement for works published in the United States. See the definition of "publication." In general, the owner of copyright or the owner of the exclusive right of publication in the work has a legal obligation to deposit in the Copyright Office, within 3 months of publication in the United States, two copies (or in the case of sound recordings, two phonorecords) for the use of the Library of Congress. Failure to make the deposit can result in fines and other penalties but does not affect copyright protection.</blockquote>


Wow. They need to hire a different high school student to run the InfoCenter desk.


<HR>

Hmmm.... what's the Logo doing up at 8:00 a.m. on a Sunday morning? Today's the day the NY Times ad is supposed to come out. Are they expecting a lot of traffic?

[lastr]

They need to hire a different high school student to run the InfoCenter desk. :rofl I can always count on you Uncle Jim!

I see nothing on their board yet about the ad, did it run? I thought someone would post who was in it or how beautiful it is etc.

Carol

[Sher2]

I see nothing on their board yet about the ad, did it run? I thought someone would post who was in it or how beautiful it is etc.

It can't be found in the online edition of the NYT, but I didn't expect it would be. I'm waiting anxiously for somebody to run out and get the paper and let us all know what's what.

Once upon a time, it would have been odd to see The Logo up and working at 8:00 A.M., but it looks like they've been running a graveyard shift for a while now, what with threads being deleted in the middle of the night and all.

[lastr]

www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6014.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6014.htm)

Subject: Warning for Canadian writers


Message:
PA monitors, I would appreciate your non-interference on this post, in spite of your censorship of my last attempt to post this subject, as it has a critical impact on your Canadian writers.
If you are a Canadian writer and attempt to transport a significant number of your books to the States, you will be pulled over at customs, held for a minimum of three hours, fingerprinted and asked to take the books back before you cross the border.
Bottom line?
It is illegal in the States for a non-American citizen to sell books in the States.
Just for your information,

[James D Macdonald]

Here are the folks featured in the now-famous ad, together with their sales figures.

<HR>
Heroes are Hard to Find
by Mike Looney
ISBN: 1413716679
(April 26, 2004)
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 1,250,211
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: 271,631
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 1
On order across all warehouses: 1
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 2
Total sales this year: 19
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>
<HR>

Four Roses for Sarah
by Gerry Edwards
ISBN: 1413733980
(August 9, 2004)
Amazon.com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>
<HR>

God and Man in Perfect Union : God's Plan for Man's Perfection
by Joe S. Philip
ISBN: 1413723691
(August 2, 2004)
Amazon.com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>
<HR>

A Window to the World
by Eunice Boeve
ISBN: 1413732127
(July 26, 2004)
Amazon.com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>
<HR>

The Fairy Chronicles Book One : Marigold and the Feather of Hope
by J.H. Sweet
ISBN: 1413729789
(July 26, 2004)
Amazon.com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>
<HR>

By the Water's Edge
by Roger Lee Scott
ISBN: 1413717195
(June 2004)
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 2,720,249
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 4
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>
<HR>

A Handsome Guy: True story of the elite Marine Scout/Snipers during the WWII Battle of Okinawa
by Phillip R. Dolan
ISBN: 1413726372
(July 20, 2004)
Amazon.com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: 79,039
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 9,999
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 2
Total sales this year: 1
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>
<HR>

Island Of Terror
by Erika Butler
ISBN: 1413721273
(May 17, 2004)
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 2,210,901
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: 336,915
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 6
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 4
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>
<HR>

Pacified Zone
by Gary W. Suffern
ISBN: 1413730779
(August 2, 2004)
Amazon.com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>
<HR>

A Word of Encouragement
by Michael Alford
ISBN: 141373264X
(July 26, 2004)
Amazon.com Sales Rank: None
Barnes & Noble Sales Rank: None
Ingram's Stock Information:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
On hand across all warehouses: 0
On order across all warehouses: 0
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 0
Total sales last year: 0
</blockquote>

[lastr]

Those sales numbers from Ingrams are the saddest thing I've seen in a long time. B&N and Amazon rankings also bear out the belief that all sales counted must have come through PA site only. Unless a LOT of people bought directly from PA those authors bought their place into that Ad. None of the PA books that are actually selling anything except to the author themselves is represented. Jim, it proves your point one more time - PA's business model is to sell to its' own authors only.

Wonder how many each had to buy to get in that Ad?

Wonder what the reaction on the PA board will be?

[lastr]

Books listing 9,999 in stock at Ingrams are One Source books and it is a bug in the software to list that many available - it is true for all One Source books when they are first added. Information on One Source listed above. (A friend of mine has his book listed that way, got all excited about the stock numbers and called to inquire.)

[James D Macdonald]

Wonder how many each had to buy to get in that Ad?

If any of those authors would like to email me directly, to tell me how many copies they bought, I promise to keep their individual information and identities confidential.

My address: yog@sff.net

[Sher2]

Only 28 sales among them (irrespective of the large author purchases to make the list in the first place)? That's rather sad, I think.

[lastr]

Jim, is the other Ad (bought by the poetry author) on the same page with the PA Ad?

[lastr]

Only 28 sales among them (irrespective of the large author purchases to make the list in the first place)? That's rather sad, I think. Plus the few books bought directly from LS that make up the numbers shown on B&N and Amazon, probably another 50 or so.

[James D Macdonald]

Books listing 9,999 in stock at Ingrams are One Source books ...

Is this the same One Source that we're told WaldenBooks can't even order from?

[vstrauss]

>>Unless a LOT of people bought directly from PA those authors bought their place into that Ad.<<

That assumes the selections weren't just random picks from the pool of recent authors...

Jim, what does the ad look like?

- Victoria

[James D Macdonald]

Jim, is the other Ad (bought by the poetry author) on the same page with the PA Ad?

No, it isn't. The PA ad is on page 14. The other ad is on page 26. You won't notice it at first -- it's in the "Book Exchange" classified ads section, in about six-point type. It's the one that's boxed, with the line "P.P. Poetry for Human Rights."

<HR>

Here's an <A HREF="http://www.fonerbooks.com/surfing.htm" target="_new"> interesting graph</A> showing what those Amazon sales ranks mean.

For books in the 1-2 million range, it's horrid. 0.01 books/day/year or less.

[lastr]

Is this the same One Source that we're told WaldenBooks can't even order from? It's an agreement to *warehouse* POD books consolidated between Ingram and a South American publisher so that they can be fulfilled from one place. Waldenbooks did order and stock a few of my friend's book - which is an iUniverse title BTW. So unless there is another One Source out there (besides this one and the data storage center of the same name), that post was misguided.

[James D Macdonald]

Jim, what does the ad look like?

It's a very nice ad, actually. Lots of hype for PA included, but we expected that, didn't we?

Big PA logo at the top, then:


Proudly Presenting PublishAmerica's Top Sellers For August
PublishAmerica is a traditional publishing house, presenting our ten best selling books for last month.


Then come two rows of cover thumbnails with title, author, ISBN, and price.

Then four lines (two paragraphs) of PA hype. Then another line with PA's website URL and email address.

And all I can say is, if those are their best selling books, how did their worst selling books do?

[lastr]

PublishAmerica is a traditional publishing house, presenting our ten best selling books for last month.

Reminds me of the kid up the street that frantically repeats "I did so compete in the Olympics - you just weren't watching when I was on!"

[James D Macdonald]

In all of the other ads for books in the NYT Book Review, the publisher's name is in the smallest type in the ad, not the largest (in some you have to hunt to find the publisher at all).

It's clear that this is an ad for PA, not an ad for the authors. It's just that they've figured out how to get the authors to pay for it.

[DaveKuzminski]

PA is telling their authors it's optional now because the truth is hurting them when we point out that their authors paid for a copyright registration when other publishers do that for their authors. They're also trying to make it appear that their authors aren't paying anything up front so that they can better counter the charge that they're a vanity publisher.

Of course, it won't be long before one of their naive authors asks if PA is setting them up to have their books stolen because they're not registering the copyright. Look for them to be banned from the forum and show up elsewhere.

[lastr]

It's clear that this is an ad for PA, not an ad for the authors. It's just that they've figured out how to get the authors to pay for it. I need a new tractor, think I can get someone to pay for it if I promise to put an Ad in the paper thanking them?

There are no *older* authors on the list and no one has yet posted that they saw the Ad, or congratulated either the authors on it or PA for the Ad. Maybe some are starting to figure it out?

Ad capitalized to pay it the homage demanded it by PA.

[lastr]

www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6015.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6015.htm)

Message:
Okay, here's the big list. All the authors were recently released authors it appears. Interpret this list as you wish. Hope you didn't spend too much!

Someone has gotten the idea it appears.

[DaveKuzminski]

Maybe the PA authors did figure that out and didn't go out and purchase a lot of their own books. If so, that could explain why PA had to short change or not pay a bunch of its authors so they could pay for the ad.

[lastr]

They are getting the message it appears. Except for the ones that choose not to see:

Message:
Although I am happy for these authors, if they were placed in the list because they bought their own books, I think that is unfair. There have been authors with PA that have worked extremely hard to sell their books to readers that also deserve to be on the bestsellers list. In my opinion, for what it is worth, the list should be according to the number of books sold to readers, not purchased by the author.

Message:
It seems to me that we should be happy for these people, and not even consider 'if they bought their own books.' do you know for a fact that these people bought their own books, people on these boards just say what ever they want without regard to who reads them. At least PA is getting somewhere with advertisiing and it's good for us all and the ONLY way anyone could even think that it's because they bought their own books is because they read it here first.
I think it's sour grapes, and I think it's a good possibility that these folks did a lot of work to sell their books too!!!

xxxxxx


Message:
xxxxxx I am in total agreement with you. One should not make a bestsellers list because they have money to purchase their own books...the list should be determined by how many were sold to the public during the given time period. I would rather sell only 25 or so to the public who enjoy reading it than to have to purchase my own books just to make a list.

Alas, this is how PA has determined to do this and it is their ballgame...hopefully someday they will also realize the important of sales to the public and not to oneself.

If you made the list selling to the public...Congratualtions!. If you made it because you made a large purchase of your own books...sorry I cannot offer the same.


www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6015.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6015.htm)

[aka eraser]

For comparison purposes and to put the Ingram's numbers that Jim posted in perspective, I called Ingram's to get their data on my book.

Keep in mind that it's been out for a little over a year and by any measure (except PA's) is a very modest seller; about 4,000 copies so far.

Current Amazon rank: 23,790 (Has been in the low-mid twenties for several months - peaked around 3,000 pre-last Christmas.)

On hand across all warehouses: 15
On order across all warehouses: 21
On backorder across all warehouses: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 4
Last week's adjusted demand: 4
Total sales this year: 80
Total sales last year: 140

I'm happy to see that some PA authors are seeing through the smoke and mirrors of the NY Times ad. I still feel this promotion will prove to be PA's biggest mistake. It's going to swell the list of the disgruntled and most won't stay quiet.

I'm expecting quite an influx of ex-PA authors to this board over the coming weeks/months.

[XThe NavigatorX]

considering that the PA bookstore doesn't seem to work for hardly anyone, coupled with Jim's stats, I think it's safe to assume every one on that list purchased their own books.

The person who told me they were going to purchase 1000 copies is not on the list. Don't know if he really did or not. None of the people from the PA board who stated they bought 250 copies are on, either. I don't recognize any of those names at all.

[HapiSofi]

Here's how I'd describe the PA ad on page 14 of the latest NYTBR: It is not identical to, but most closely resembles, the kind of institutional ad you'd see announcing the latest season's titles from some ambitious university press. There are thumbnail pictures of ten titles, arranged in two horizontal lines of five titles each. Each is accompanied by the title, author name, ISBN, number of pages, and price.

The differences: In a real publishing ad, the additional text would consist of carefully-written descriptions of each of the books. In this ad, the additional text is all about the publishing house, describing its printing methods, royalty arrangements, and other circumstances that have nothing to do with the titles in question.

The effect is like a overdressed pseud who's crashed a private party, and is missing no opportunities to tell everyone within earshot that he or she is exactly the sort of person whom the gatecrasher imagines would be invited to such a gathering.

The ruse might fool a small child, but not an astute one.

[Whachawant]

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10646.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10646.htm)

quote-----"Seriously, I've done fairly well, although I have yet to see my first royalty statement......"----

quote-----"I just came in and saw the new message from PA Support about the NY Times 1/2 page ad for the top 10 sellers of the previous 4 weeks. NOW, anyone who doubts that PA is the best is nuts. This proves that they not only give us authors a great work product, but also help us to advertise."-------


"WELL ladies and gentlemen... maybe we should climb a tree and hang there....cause apparently we're all nuts!!!!!"

[DaveKuzminski]

Sounds to me like PA is beginning to realize that getting some penny ante sales from lots of writers is more hard work than it's worth, especially since they have to put up with so many questions later.

If they made enough profit from that ad among the newbies who didn't know better, then that could very well set the direction for their future focus. Concentrate on getting new authors to pre-purchase large lots in hopes of seeing massive sales later because they were featured in "the ad" in the NYT. A few will try to make the second ad after their book's release before economics force them to quit in disgust and concentrate on selling the books that were delivered. Then reality will set in when they find themselves unable to sell that many without support. They'll post questions or complaints and then find themselves banned because by then PA won't care about them.

Who knows? If the new paradigm works well enough, PA may decide to cut down the seven-year publishing rights to three just to make themselves look even better since they'll be certain of getting more money earlier from their victims.

By the way, I wonder how long it will take for them to learn of the sales' statistics posted here? That ought to be a real eye-opener for them since those statistics show that the books in the ads couldn't possibly have made the list based on their previous sales track records.

[DeePower]

From the PA boards
For educational purposes:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/6015.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6015.htm)

RE: NYT???

Message:
Again, I have to ask, could someone please
tell me where to find documentation that
indicates that these authors bought thier own
books. I just got off the phone and none of
thier banks would release that information to
me. I then asked them all personally and none
said that they had talked to any of you. Hmmm,
why don't we see if we can infuse doubt about
something other than things that benifit all of
us. I got it, it looks like rain. Is that a cloud? I
sure it's going to rain. Maybe it is the best
weather we've had all year. LOOKS LIKE RAIN!

There are two sentences that I find very odd.

"I just got off the phone and none of
thier banks would release that information to
me."

How on earth would this PA author possibly have the bank information for each of the NYT 'winners.' And it's Sunday the banks aren't open.

AND

"I then asked them all personally and none
said that they had talked to any of you."

That's an awfully fast turnaround to contact each of the 10 "winners" and receive a response. How convenient that he just happened to have their contact info in the first place.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[emeraldcite]

There are two sentences that I find very odd.

sounds like sarcasm to me...

[XThe NavigatorX]

He was joking.

[Ed Williams 3]

...the PAvidians all in an uproar over the criteria used to determine the list, should author sales to themselves count, etc. Since all the books on the list are new books, I would guess that these ten authors have bought a lot of books for themselves. I predict the thread will be gone by tomorrow morning, but it is interesting to watch some of the more avid PA supporters questioning their up-to-now omnipotent publisher....

:rofl

[lindylou45]

Since all the books on the list are new books, I would guess that these ten authors have bought a lot of books for themselves.

What about the guy that talks about pre-release sales of 500. Are those sales because 500 people actually bought the book, or is he hoping 500 people will buy the book. Either way, I think we know how many he bought.

I can't believe how many of these people are still buying into this crap! What will it take to get them to see the truth?

:head

[DaveKuzminski]

Technically, there's no need to state that the copying of a posting is for educational purposes. The Supreme Court stated as much when they ruled that a parody didn't have to be labeled as a parody when it's clear from the material around it that it is. I think that is clear here that we're educating each other and other writers as well as criticizing a, unfortunately, member of our industry for its failings.

As to how long it will take some of those authors to recognize their predicament and PA for what it is, it's my guess that will come about when they can no longer stomach tripping over their unsold books in their homes and using those for an imprompt coffee table grows old.

[XThe NavigatorX]

according to a second-hand post on that NYT thread, ahh forget it, I'm just gonna post it:

I seldom come on these boards any more because of all the bickering. But I hear one guy on the list bought 3000 books to get on th NYT advertisement. To me this is foolish, since it would have been cheaper to buy an ad like Karl Stuart Kline did. *snip*


Assuming this is true... wow. The cheapest book on that list written by a male is 14.95. So 3,000 copies at 50% off (assuming he used his new author discount) is $22,425 plus another $1,500 in shipping, which would come to almost $24,000.

If it was a 19.95 book, then he would've spent $29,925 plus shipping. For that much money he could've set up his own publishing company, printed that many books himself, have a half-page ad in NYT, AND hire a PR firm to promote it

Man, I can't believe that's true. That's just insane. That's an obscene amount of money for such a thing.

[Lisamaliga]

Hello all!
I'm new here & have been watching this PA topic for a couple of months.

I'm concerned about all those authors who invested so much :money into this NYT fiasco and others who might become competitive and buy their books to outdo them. In 1 year, what will be the result?

Hopefully, people who contemplated forking over so much money will see these posts and stay clear of PA's latest scam.

Lisa in Hollywood

[HapiSofi]

One feels the August sales competition for placement in the NYTBR ad was a mistake on PA's part. Let's assume the books that made it into the ad really are their bestsellers for August. (They ought to be; it was a contest, and therefore regulated by law.) Since we now know how these ten titles are performing relative to the rest of PA's list, whatever sales figures we can dig up for them should tell us a great deal about PA's sales overall.

What we find is that the bestselling books for August have on average sold fewer than three copies apiece through normal retail distribution channels, which means that everyone else's non-vanity book sales must be so puny as to be practically nonexistent.

That's a very bad thing for PA to have their authors figuring out. Before, an author whose PA-published book wasn't selling could believe that even though his or her own book wasn't going anywhere, other PA authors' books must surely be doing better. This would simultaneously give the author an incentive to work harder on promoting their book, and a reason to shut up and feel depressed: if other people are selling when they aren't, their lack of success must be all their own fault.

That scenario is wrecked if they know that nobody else is selling either. If none of PublishAmerica's August bestsellers are selling to the public in quantities that rise above "derisory", the fault can only lie with PA and their publishing model, and not with the authors or their books.

[corporatenegro]

How do BN.com and Amazon.com obtain PA books for purchase to customers? Do they buy direct or do they use a distributor? Can a PA author find out how many books he or she has sold on these sites instead of just a ranking?

The Corporate Negro

[DeePower]

I'd really like to find out why a Waldenbooks would not be able to order a PA book because of One Source.

below is the email I received from a PA author.

"As of now, WaldenBooks can no longer order my book, and it is in huge demand through them. They could only order one time, which they did for the booksigning. Now, because of this one source title, they can not order again."

She says Waldenbooks can't order the book to stock their shelves or for the customers to purchase, or for another booksigning. The book is a PublishAmerica book.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[James D Macdonald]

"Now, because of this one source title, they can not order again."

Did she perhaps misspeak in her letter or mishear the Walden employee? Perhaps what was meant was "now, because of this source [i] they cannot order again"?

[James D Macdonald]

They need to hire a different high school student to run the InfoCenter desk.

Now, same thread, they have some random guy recommending ... (wait for it) ... Poor Man's Copyright! Again!

I wonder if The Logo will pop up to say "No, dude, that's an urban legend. Worthless in court. Worthless everywhere else."

I'm sorry. For The Logo to arrive and say something about it, first they'd have to find someone in the office who understood copyright, and second they'd have to find someone who cared. They don't have anyone like that on staff.

[XThe NavigatorX]

re: One Source

There was something about this in Publisher's Lunch about a month ago, but they didn't say it was getting mixed in with the already existing One Source program, but it makes sense they would since it's basically the same thing.

The One Source program originally allowed Spanish titles to be drop shipped to bookstores directly from some random warehouse, instead of first shipping to Ingram. Apparantly, One Source was just expanded to encompass Lightning Source. I don't know if they're just testing it out with a few titles or what, but I believe (someone correct me) in the next few months all Lightning Source titles through Ingram will be truly POD. No more of this ordering and stocking 1, 2 titles at a time. I don't think the 9,999 in stock is a glitch. It just means there isn't a finite amount of books. They're POD, so they can print as many as they want.

The books will never touch an Ingram warehouse. They'll go straight from Lightning Source to the book seller. Ingram's warehouses were getting filled with 1 title each of 1,000s upon 1,000s of titles that would just sit there and collect dust, and this, I believe, is an attempt to curb that.

If you browse through Amazon you'll see many POD books that used to be "ships in 24 hours" now have ship in 8-11 days. That's because of this change, too.

www.ingrambookgroup.com/p...source.asp (http://www.ingrambookgroup.com/programs/onesource.asp)

[James D Macdonald]

The books will never touch an Ingram warehouse. They'll go straight from Lightning Source to the book seller. Ingram's warehouses were getting filled with 1 title each of 1,000s upon 1,000s of titles that would just sit there and collect dust, and this, I believe, is an attempt to curb that.

So, when they say "we can't order from One Source" that's the same as "we can't order a POD"?

[XThe NavigatorX]

I don't know. Maybe it's because it's new and the booksellers don't know how to deal with it yet. From what I understand the whole 9,999 was put there because when they said 0 in stock in Ingram warehouses (which is the truth) the Amazon and BN computer systems would say 'Out of Stock' on their sales pages. So obviously there's lots of kinks to work out.


I doubt the publishers who use Lightning Source would be too happy if all their titles were suddenly un-orderable through chain bookstores. It'll get fixed, I'm sure.

[ProandCon]

After Navigator's explanation of One Source, it sounds like the powers to be at Waldenbooks said no to buying the book because of PA's No Return Policy.

The local store manager probably made the decision the first time to order a minimum amount of books that stayed under the radar of the decision makers. Perhaps the quantity of books ordered the second time tripped the alarm level at the regional level and woke the big boss up from sleeping. The bosses probably slapped the manager's hand and said NO to No Return Books.

The person with the question needs to call Border's Corporate office (Owns Waldenbooks) to find out if it is the No Return Policy hurting her efforts.

Corporate Headquarters
For general inquiries contact us at:

Borders Group, Inc.
100 Phoenix Drive
Ann Arbor, MI 48108
734.477.1100

[James D Macdonald]

...no to buying the book because of PA's No Return Policy.

No return policy, short discount, and high cover price. All three of them work to the author's disadvantage.

[James D Macdonald]

You can follow the fortunes of the Lucky Ten by going to JungleScan.com:

<a href="http://1.junglescan.com/scan/details.php?asin=1413716679" target="_new">Heroes are Hard to Find</a>

<a href="http://1.junglescan.com/scan/details.php?asin=1413732127" target="_new">A Window to the World</a>

<a href="http://1.junglescan.com/scan/details.php?asin=1413717195" target="_new">By the Water's Edge</a>

<a href="http://1.junglescan.com/scan/details.php?asin=1413721273" target="_new">Island of Terror</a>

<hr>

Why don't I have ten titles listed here?

Because Junglescan won't track a book before it's had its first sale. I'll be updating this list as more of the Top Ten PA Best Sellers sell their first copies.


<HR>

Update:

Two more PA Best Sellers have sold at least one copy via Amazon!

They are:

<a href="http://1.junglescan.com/scan/details.php?asin=1413729789" target="_new">The Fairy Chronicles Book One</a>

<a href="http://1.junglescan.com/scan/details.php?asin=1413726372" target="_new">A Handsome Guy</a>


<HR>

Another Update:

<a href="http://1.amazonscan.com/scan/details.php?asin=141373264X" target="_new">A Word of Encouragement</a>

As of this moment, thirty days after the PA NYTimes ad, three out of the ten "best sellers" haven't sold even one copy via Amazon.


<HR>

Update 06NOV04:

Four Roses for Sarah and Pacified Zone have had their first sales via Amazon! That just leaves God and Man in Perfect Union without a sale. Will someone please buy a copy via Amazon to put Joe Philip on the board?

[ProandCon]

"I predict the thread will be gone by tomorrow morning"

Well Ed your prediction was wrong! Hope you do better betting on the horses!

It is good to see PA has actually allowed the post to remain and let the various opinions be known.

Sure there were some opinions Pro and some opinions Con but they are there for everyone to see. Way to go PA for not pulling the post too quickly.

LindyLou "Are those sales because 500 people actually bought the book"

You should read his post closer. He says that he has 500 presales which is great. He appears to be a go getter. Don't take that away from him. You should admire his effort and not try to take him down.

[lindylou45]

You should read his post closer. He says that he has 500 presales which is great. He appears to be a go getter. Don't take that away from him. You should admire his effort and not try to take him down.

I wasn't "trying to take him down". I was asking a question. Whether they are sales or presales, someone has to have asked to buy the book. I was merely asking if those presales were from readers or the author. Regardless of what you may believe, there is a difference.

[James D Macdonald]

I was merely asking if those presales were from readers or the author.

I wish the gentleman in question would drop over so he could discuss it directly.

If I'm reading him right, that's 500 folks who have promised to buy copies when his book comes out. It doesn't sound as if any money has yet changed hands.

[CaoPaux]

I'll be updating this list as more of the Top Ten PA Best Sellers sell their first copies.
I truly don't know whether to laugh or cry. :x

[calynnster]

Remember when someone brought it to this board's attention about how PA authors were taking the suggestion to basically spam people about their new books? Well, at least one author felt it a lovely idea. I don't even know this person, yet I received an email from him telling me about his brand-spanking new book. :bang

I'm thrilled for his book and I imagine he's terribly excited, but this sort of marketing style is infuriating. I did take the time to tell this individual how extremely unprofessional this tactic is and if I knew of any of our authors doing this sort of thing, I'd insist they cease and desist for the simple reason that it makes not only the author look desperate, but it makes the publisher look foolish as well.

Simply awful that anyone would think this a brilliant marketing ploy. :head

[priceless1]

(Sorry, signed in under the wrong name.)

Remember when someone brought it to this board's attention about how PA authors were taking the suggestion to basically spam people about their new books? Well, at least one author felt it a lovely idea. I don't even know this person, yet I received an email from him telling me about his brand-spanking new book. <img border=0 src="http://www.absolutewrite.com/images/emoteHammer.gif" />

I'm thrilled for his book and I imagine he's terribly excited, but this sort of marketing style is infuriating. I did take the time to tell this individual how extremely unprofessional this tactic is and if I knew of any of our authors doing this sort of thing, I'd insist they cease and desist for the simple reason that it makes not only the author look desperate, but it makes the publisher look foolish as well.

Simply awful that anyone would think this a brilliant marketing ploy. <img border=0 src="http://www.absolutewrite.com/images/EmoteHeadbang.gif" />

[lindylou45]

I received my response from the MD AG's office and it was basically just a letter from PA back to them claiming that I am among (and I quote) "...a small number of scare-mongers who use the internet to spread lies, falsehoods, and half-truths about our company."

I've never been called a "scare-monger" before. Interesting. The remainder of the letter was rife with lies, including that they never said the New York Times "connection" was anything other than advertising. (In the email it states a "partnership", is that considered advertising)? They also state it is costing them $50,000.00 out of pocket and they are not asking the authors to pay a dime. No, just buy their own books.

It's amazing what these people seem to be able to get away with.

:bang >: :head

[HConn]

Write another letter. Dispute what PA says.

[lindylou45]

Write another letter. Dispute what PA says.

I intend to.

[James D Macdonald]

The NYT rate card is <a href="http://www.nytadvertising.com/was/files/others/2004_Rate_Book_PDF_Books.pdf" target="_new">here</a>.

If you'd like to forward me a copy of that letter, perhaps I can help you annotate some of the lies, falsehoods, and half-truths that it contains.

[DeePower]

I have heard through the grapevine that PA is getting additional complaints filed against them through the AG office in Maryland.

Haven't heard a word about the complaint I filed the first week of September.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[Molly Brent]

I received a letter from the AG's office today also.

The letter from PA to him was not like the rest that ya'll received....it hardly said anything except that they had removed my book ............

The attorney general aslo said if this reply was not satisfactory to call him tomorrow.

I wrote back and asked if he normally accepted the word of the criminals he was "investigating" and determined it resolved with a letter full of lies going unquestioned.

I requested an investigation. I want to know how many books were printed and when. What about the fraud on the internet? PA also told him they were not responsible for the online book stores still selling my book.

I certainly do not consider this an adequate response and most of my complaints were ignored.....to please read the complaint again and respond to all of them.

I urge everyone to write back and complain about the lack of interest and accepting the word of PA without
an investigtion of any kind.

Molly

[DaveKuzminski]

Why not suggest to the MdAG that he have a staff investigator submit a book to them to see just how they act toward writers?

[D Dawes]

I strongly suspect the AG will be paying PA an unexpected visit in the near future. PA's nonchalant attitude is getting a little worn. I am sure the AG's agents are tired of hearing the same poor excuses.

I'm sure, by now, the AG's agents can see the pattern of fraud. After all, they weren't born yesterday. PA may think they are pulling the wool over their eyes by skirting around the questions, but the AG's agents are only allowing them to hang themselves.

They know there is validity in those complaints. I would surmise they are probably wondering what exactly is the extent of PA's deception. There are authors complaining about copyright infringement, there are those complaining about inaccuracies in royalties, and there are those who still have not received royalties for the month of August.

How can anyone trust PA’s words on face value when there have been numerous discrepancies with royalties? If PA is truly having a cash flow problem, the law of averages dictates, they must shortchange Peter to pay Paul. What makes this revelation even worse, it appears PA has a history of ripping off its authors. Personally, I seriously doubt that any of PA’s authors has been exempted from the distortion.

And what’s even more sinister than PA’s deception, is the fact that it appears they no longer give a squat about authors filing lawsuits and complaining to investigative agencies. Therefore, I would strongly urge everyone, who is still waiting for a reasonable explanation from PA in regards to August royalties, contact the AG, FTC, the IRS and the FBI fraud division ASAP because at this point no one knows the extent of PA's deception, or how long its been going on, or what to expect from the finale.

[DaveKuzminski]

It could be interesting once the MdAG investigates to learn just how many PA trolls suddenly disappear from their forum and others.

By the way, to any PA authors who attended the convention in Maryland and are writing to the MdAG, you should also remember to mention the armed guards that were also in attendance. I seem to recall that they were described as being in plain clothes and not in uniform. That could be of significant interest to the MdAG.

[lindylou45]

If you'd like to forward me a copy of that letter, perhaps I can help you annotate some of the lies, falsehoods, and half-truths that it contains.

I've sent a copy via the messages here. I'd appreciate your assistance.

[vstrauss]

Do NOT hold your breath for the AG, folks. Unless they receive a significant influx of complaints (not two or three, or nine or ten, but twenty or thirty) over the next couple of months they are probably simply going to to on acting like the BBB: write a letter to PA, pass on PA's response, and forget about it. Volume is what's needed here. Volume is the ONLY way to get action from law enforcement in cases of literary fraud. In every single situation I know about where action was taken (and sadly, they can almost be counted on the fingers of one hand), it was the volume of author complaints that tipped the balance.

People need to complain. That means everyone. Don't sit back and expect others to do it; don't put it off till tomorrow or next week: do it yourself and do it now. (To those who have complained, apologies--this is not aimed at you--and thanks.)

- Victoria

[HConn]

The "PA, pro and con" website seems to be down. Anyone know what happened to it?

[AnneMarble]

People need to complain. That means everyone. Don't sit back and expect others to do it; don't put it off till tomorrow or next week: do it yourself and do it now. (To those who have complained, apologies--this is not aimed at you--and thanks.)

What about people who weren't published by PublishAmerica? Is there anyone we can complain to, just to help? (Local politicians, media, etc.?) Or would anything we send be ignored because we're not clients of PA?

[keltora]

*********What about people who weren't published by PublishAmerica? Is there anyone we can complain to, just to help? (Local politicians, media, etc.?) Or would anything we send be ignored because we're not clients of PA?*******

I suspect the complaints need to come from victims of PA and not from outsiders. Complaints from outsiders might just be viewed as more fuel for PA's fire.

The idea here is to make the MDAG aware that people are being seriously scammed by PA.

:coffee

[DaveKuzminski]

Just checked. The Publish America Yes or No? site at payn.freelinuxhost.com/ (http://payn.freelinuxhost.com/) is still running.

[AC Crispin]

I can't imagine why PA would be having a cash flow problem or be crying poormouth. Victoria and I did some rough, deliberately "lowball" estimates tonight about how much they're pulling in, and, at bare minimum, it's over a million bucks a year.

The actual amount is probably closer to three or four million.

The mind reels!

-Ann C. Crispin

[James D Macdonald]

I can't imagine why PA would be having a cash flow problem or be crying poormouth.

Meiners has expensive tastes?

[CaoPaux]

Since the royalty snafu, I've noticed more folks asking about how to track sales.

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/6052.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6052.htm)
-----
fallscolors
9/22/2004
19:58:02
Message:
A book club sound great, but wouldn't you rather have them spend their time making us all an authors page where we could go to check our sales etc?

Ray
The Sword and The Staff
free.prohosting.com/sbook (http://free.prohosting.com/sbook)
-----
kas
9/22/2004
20:20:52
Message:
Logic tends to lead us first, to a book club so that we may generate sales. Then a page that we can waste our time checking to see how much money we have made.

I personally am not a writer for the money, I write because I love to write. Yes, I want to sell books, but so people can read and enjoy my stories. I don't need a page I can constantly run to every few minutes to see if I made .86 cents.
-----
rpwilliams
9/22/2004
20:25:55
Message:
Good point, kas.
It's like sales rankings on Amazon and B&N.
Boring.
Whoop-tee-do, look at me I jumped 100,000 ranking points to a new level of obscurity.

RP
geocities.com/candide_/
-----
LindaP
9/22/2004
20:52:26
Message:
Ray,
Why check sales when no one knows your book is out there? There are a few of us who have no bookstores near us, so that means our dreams of getting our books in the bookstores are just that, Dreams. A person can only have so many booksignings in a small town like I live in. For me, there is no where to go. I brought up the idea of a bookclub in order to get our names and books out in the world. If we don't do that, we may as well give up on our books. I have a grandson in Arizona, so I mailed him and his wife 50 bookcovers and order forms. I did the same to my cousin and his wife in Ohio, and to my 3 stepsons and families in Flordia, to my stepdaughter in Georgia. I didn't just send mine, but everyone who answered my thread will be sent. I don't need to track my sales. I NEED to get the word out about my book. As do others. I think the so called bookclub, which is only flyers tied together with pretty ribbon will do what I and others want it to do. And that is to generate sales.

LindaP
Silent Killers
-----
fallscolors
9/22/2004
21:36:44

Message:
Maybe you guys and girls are right, but a page to check your sales would certainly tell if you are putting your efforts to sell your books in the right place. Although it sure helps, money is not always the immediate goal. My thoughts are to sell as many books as possible and the money will follow later.
I hope you sell thousands of books LindaP.
Hell! I hope you all do.

Ray
The Sword and The Staff
free.prohosting.com/sbook (http://free.prohosting.com/sbook)
-----
womanspeak
9/23/2004
10:18:21
Message:
Most of us write for the love of doing it and the money is secondary, but no one likes feeling vulnerable to being cheated out of money earned -or not being paid for work accomplished.

Certainly we should be able to check our sales, and this should not be difficult for PA to set up. As it is we are at the mercy of PA and have no way of knowing if our royalty checks are accurate. Allowing us to track our sales creates a better, more fail-safe royalty payment system and if everything is on the up and up then there's no problem.

I've personally found PA difficult to communicate with over financial matters. I've been trying to find out how they are going to handle refunds for the Hemingway event for almost three weeks. Next comes a letter from the lawyer, and no one really wants to go that route if it's at all possible to avoid it - but there are more than just a few bucks involved with this.
-----
JeanMarie
9/23/2004
10:36:18
Message:
Tracking sales is a marketing tool and does not detract from the love of writing.

Jean
Thread In Time
www.jeanmariewiesen.com
-----

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> I've been trying to find out how they are going to handle refunds for the Hemingway event for almost three weeks.<hr></blockquote>
What? They canceled the Hemingway trip? When did that happen? Hoo boy, those poor people who paid will have better luck booking a trip to the moon than ever seeing a refund. That was a hefty chunk of change, I seem to remember.

[XThe NavigatorX]

The Hemingway trip was scheduled the same weekend that Ivan hit. I believe it was rescheduled for a later date.

[Sher2]

What? They canceled the Hemingway trip? When did that happen? Hoo boy, those poor people who paid will have better luck booking a trip to the moon than ever seeing a refund.

It was canceled due to the hurricane, rescheduled for early December. I, too, suspect that folks who paid for Sept. but can't go in Dec. will be up the creek without a paddle insofar as getting their money back.

[Whachawant]

I was watching a news station and in the credits on the bottom...it stated.. "Walter, The Farting Dog"...a children's book, made the NYT Bestseller list at 1 million sales.

I'm wondering how all the authors at P.A. feel about being ousted by a flatulent four legged character.
Course.....then again ... they're(P.A.) crap anyway.
Maybe 'Walter' can wipe his fanny with the paper of P.A.






(edited for those lacking a medial epicondyle)

[publishorperish]

Now that is just mean.

[CaoPaux]

Agreed. Let's keep the focus on PA for the sake of those authors who might move on to improve their craft.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It was canceled due to the hurricane, rescheduled for early December.<hr></blockquote>
You're too right, Sher. Sept. is far more doable than December. People are getting ready for the holidays. I truly hope against all hope that those who aren't able to attend do recieve a refund. With all the heat coming down on PA, to add outright thievery to the mix is just bad karma.

[DeePower]

Use this info however you wish

PublishAmerica touts over and over again that it is a traditional publishing company.

www.publishamerica.com/aboutus.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/aboutus.htm) “PublishAmerica, a traditional advance and royalty paying book publisher, launches authors in the best tradition of old-fashioned quality publishing.”

www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm)
FACT #1: Unique among all traditional book publishing companies,
FACT #3: Again, unparalleled among all traditional book publishing companies
FACT #6: PublishAmerica is a traditional, royalty paying publisher

www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm)
Been published by a vanity press, subsidy publisher, or self published.
PublishAmerica can remove the stigma of paying to be published. With PublishAmerica, you will have the very important distinction of having your next book ACCEPTED BY A TRADITIONAL PUBLISHING COMPANY.
*****

A traditional publishing company’s primary revenue source is the sale of books through distributors, online bookstores, and bricks and mortar bookstores.

A traditional publishing company discourages its authors from purchasing his/her own books for resale to bookstores. Traditional publishers want the bookstores to buy either directly from them or through a distributor. PublishAmerica encourages their authors to buy books from them. Their primary market is their own authors. Every few months PublishAmerica distributes an email which announces a special. In an email dated July 23 PublishAmerica announced a “partnership” with the New York Times and an offer for authors to purchase their own books. In an email dated August 17 PublishAmerica announced that the “partnership” was an ad whereby the top ten PublishAmerica books would be advertised in the New York Times, it also included encouragement for authors to buy their way on the list.

A traditional publishing company offers the author a royalty, does not charge the author fees, and does not require the author to make any payments for services required. PublishAmerica requires the author to pay for the copyright.

A traditional publishing company obtains a library of congress (loc) catalog description for each book. PublishAmerica has obtained the loc catalog description for only six titles and that was in 2002. The catalog description is free to the publisher but the publisher must provide two copies of the title to the Library of Congress upon publication. Additionally the Library of Congress does not accept Publish On Demand books for the catalog description. Lack of the catalog description means libraries will not buy the title.

PublishAmerica is not a traditional publishing company as they claim to be.
*******************

Dee

[DeePower]

Use this information however you like

PublishAmerica says they are selective in the manuscripts that they accept, and provide editing for their titles.

www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm)
Like all serious book publishing companies we have to be picky as we can only accept the works that meet our requirements in both areas.

www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm)
Also, our team of professional editors and designers will proofread your manuscript and make corrections at no charge.

www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm)
FACT #11: We assign an editor who goes through the text line by line. Let's put this in perspective. We don't touch style issues, we don't edit the author's voice, tone, or delivery. We edit for spelling, mechanics, grammar, typos, and trust us, that's a vital and time consuming job. Together, our editing staff makes more than 35,000 (!) corrections, each day, to the books they work on that day.

www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm)
After the book has gone through the editing process,

www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm)
Once an author signs off on the proofs, that's how the book will look in print.

******************************************
PublishAmerica does not professionally edit their books and seems to accept the vast majority presented to them.
*****************************************


Miranda Prather, Executive Director of PublishAmerica claims that PublishAmerica rejects 80% ( sacurrent.com/site/news.c...4045&rfi=6 (http://sacurrent.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12073075&BRD=2318&PAG=461&dept_id=484045&rfi=6) San Antonio Current June 24, 2004) of the manuscripts presented to them. In an email they have said “We read every single submission before we
accept or refuse.” If PublishAmerica released 300 titles in a month that means 80% or 1500 titles were rejected and they read every submission. Each of the 60 employees would have to read 25 submissions a month in addition to their regular day to day duties.

PublishAmerica has or so they say, 32 editors who they claim make 35,000 corrections per day. That would mean an editor would have to find and correct a little over 1000 errors each - per day. On May 21, 2004 Amazon showed 3,046 books by PublishAmerica on September 1, 2004 there are 5,915 books. 2869 books were published in a 100 day time frame. Subtracting for weekends, each editor would have to edit a little over one book per day. Not just read, but edit one book per day. The average novel has about 90,000 words. A professional editor can edit a 90,000 word book in 30 to 40 hours.

PublishAmerica has accepted and offered a contract for a book that contains the same 30 pages repeated over and over again.

Dee

[DeePower]

PublishAmerica implies they provide marketing and publicity support for their titles.

www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm)
Been published through a POD, or publish-on-demand company.
PublishAmerica has a full-time, full-fledged marketing department whose sole mission is the growth of the company. PublishAmerica sends review copies and book release announcements, gratis, to reviewers, sponsors and attends seminars, industry trade shows, works on direct mailing campaigns for each individual book, and sends out 10-15 press releases about our new authors each day.

www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm)
FACT #3: ……….. each day an average 15 times a PublishAmerica author appears in the news media, in newspapers, magazines, radio or TV. The authors of this book publishing company have been interviewed, reviewed or introduced in literally thousands of newspapers across the country, from the Washington Post to the Clackamas County News, from the Kingwood Observer to the Los Angeles Times to Women's World Magazine. They have made appearances on local TV, and on national ABC, CNN, MSNBC and FOX TV. They also have been interviewed by radio shows hosts such as Rush Limbaugh, Don Imus, Diane Rehm, and Oliver North.

www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm)
All expenses involved with acquiring, producing, manufacturing, and publishing a book, and marketing it to the industry's wholesale and distribution channels for full availability through all bookstores at home and abroad are underwritten by PublishAmerica solely.

Paragraph 5 of the PublishAmerica contract states “The Author agrees that all the copies of the said literary work that may be used for review and/or publicity purposes…………and Paragraph 7. No payment shall be made to the Author on any copies of the said literary work that the Publisher may distribute for advertising and/or sales promotion. Paragraph 9 The Publisher agrees to distribute at his discretion, for purposes of publicity and/or review, promotional information pertaining to the said literary work ……Distribution of this promotional material
shall be at the Publisher’s own cost and expense and to media outlets of the Publishers own choice.

***********************************

PublishAmerica distributes one press release to one newspaper when an author signs the contract. They do not contact any potential book review sources or newspapers. There are no galleys (prepublication review copies) sent out by them. PublishAmerica policy is to send out only 2 or 3 review copies.

The marketing and publicity efforts of PublishAmerica are focused on recruiting new authors to publish with them, not on promoting their titles.

PublishAmerica did not attend the major trade show of the publishing industry.

Publicity is obtained on the author's efforts and not by PublishAmerica

*************************************
Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[DeePower]

Use this information however you wish

PublishAmerica insists they are not a Publish On Demand publisher.

www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm)
FACT #5: PublishAmerica is NOT in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy publisher, and has nothing in common with them. Obviously, our authors are also not being self-published. In the most commonly used context, POD indicates "Publish On Demand", or vanity publishing. Vanity publishers charge for their "services". Some charge a few hundred dollars, others a thousand or more. We are not in that league, in any way, shape or fashion.

www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm)
FACT #7: The only area where the acronym POD comes in sight, is the printing stage of a book. Among printers, POD means print-on-demand, a digital technology that enables the printer to manufacture a book one at a time. This is in contrast with the offset technology that, by definition, must produce at least hundreds of copies of a book at a time at a minimum, but preferably thousands, to justify the expense of running the press.

www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm)
FACT #8: ALL publishers use digital (Print-On-Demand) technology for printing, from all major publishing houses such as Random House down. In fact, Random House produces significantly more print-on-demand books than PublishAmerica. They also use the offset technology. PublishAmerica uses the offset technology occasionally as well, each time a larger run is necessary.

FACT #9: Does the use of the digital on-demand printing technology make a publisher a POD house? No, it does not. Of course not. According to www.acronymfinder.com, there are 57 different meanings for POD, from Post Office Department to Point Of Departure to Proof Of Delivery. In our world, POD is vanity publishing, and PublishAmerica is no vanity publisher, by any stretch of the imagination.

www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm)
Question: Is PublishAmerica a P.O.D. Printer?
Answer: PublishAmerica is NOT in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy publisher, and has nothing in common with them. PublishAmerica is a traditional, royalty paying publisher. The term POD is losing meaning in the industry as ALL publishers use digital (Print On Demand) technology for printing, at least to some extent, and it is gaining ground all the time. With digital printing, books can be produced as the demand requires. ALL books printed digitally by ALL publishers, including those of all major publishing houses, are non-returnable.

*******************************************

PublishAmerica may claim that they are not a POD, however their business model demonstrates they are. They release about the same number of titles (200 to 500) per month as the major POD houses (Xlibris, AuthorsHouse, and iUniverse). Their revenues are generated primarily by sales to authors, the business model of a POD. The majority of PublishAmerica’s marketing is to recruit new authors, just like a POD. PublishAmerica does not obtain a Library of Congress description for their books.

For comparison purposes:

Authorshouse, a legitimate POD has 200 employees and releases 500 titles a month. They have released a total of 22,000 titles and have sold 2 million copies, which is about 91 copies of each title.

PublishAmerica has 60+ employees and releases 250 – 300 titles per month. Although in the time period of May 21, 2004 to September 1, 2004 they released 2,869 titles which is nearly 1000 titles per month. They have released nearly 6000 titles and have sold either 250,000 copies or 1 million – they have used both figures in the same email correspondence, which is 42 to 167 copies, which results in an average of 105 copies of each title.

PublishAmerica claims they now have 12,000 authors, the PublishAmerica contract says the book will be published within one year of signing. If nearly 6000 titles have been released as of September 1, then they must, in order to adhere to their own contract, release 6000 titles in the next 12 months. That rate of 500 titles is the same rate as Authorshouse and PublishAmerica has only 30% of the number of employees of Authorshouse.

PublishAmerica is by their actions and their intent a Publish On Demand publisher
******************************

Dee

[ProandCon]

"I'm wondering how all the authors at P.A. feel about being ousted by a flatulent four legged character.
Course.....then again ... their crap anyway.
Maybe 'Walter' can wipe his fanny with the paper of P.A."

Whachawant,

Why are you berating fellow authors that are only trying to do the best they can with the many obstacles in front of them? I left your earlier derogatory posts on this board alone but not this time.

Who died and left you the King of the Hill?

I find it amusing that you are not crowing about being on the NYT bestsellers list. I take it the dog book beat your sales as well.

One more thing, the word 'their' should not be used in the sentence that you wrote. You do have an edit button on this site. USE IT!

[DeePower]

PublishAmerica implies their books are stocked by bookstores nationwide.

www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm)
Hundreds of bookstores across the nation stock our books.

www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm)
The majority of our books that are sold retail are sold in physical brick and mortar bookstores. Tens of thousands of people and hundreds of our authors across the nation have purchased PublishAmerica books from physical brick and mortar bookstores.

Now PublishAmerica can make your next book available in all bookstores nationwide.

All books are available through most major bookstores, online, and through phone order.

www.publishamerica.com/aboutus.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/aboutus.htm)
….full availability to all bookstores, through the best possible distribution channels (Ingram, Baker&Taylor, etc.)

www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm)
There are book signings with PublishAmerica authors almost every day in bookstores all over the fruited plain.

www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm)
PublishAmerica's books are featured for sale in bookstores across North America (and Canada), this also includes (but is not limited to) larger chain retailers as Borders, Barnes & Noble, Waldenbooks, Wal-Mart, etc...

**************************

Wal-Mart does not carry PublishAmerica books nor accept them on consignment. The small press department at Barnes and Noble does not accept PublishAmerica books because of lack of editing, poor cover design, lack of industry standard binding and pricing.

Traditional publishers offer bookstores a return policy which is critical to bookstore placement, they also offer a standard industry discount of at least 55%. The retail prices of their books are within an accepted range, whether mass market, hardcover or trade paperback.

PublishAmerica discourages sales to bookstores and distributors by not accepting returns, offering a poor discount schedule and pricing their titles substantially above the market.

Miranda Prather, Executive Director of PublishAmerica, doesn’t feel lack of bookstore placement is a problem “It's a common myth that bookstore placement equals sales.” ( sacurrent.com/site/news.c...4045&rfi=6 (http://sacurrent.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12073075&BRD=2318&PAG=461&dept_id=484045&rfi=6) San Antonio Current June 24, 2004) Total book sales in the US for 2003 is estimated at 27.8 billion according to Book Industry Trends 2004. About 40% of book sales take place in bookstores, both chains and independents according to Book Industry Trends, and just a little over 10% take place online.

What PublishAmerica means by “available” in bookstores is that the books are available to order in the bookstore. The following statement was just recently added to the PublishAmerica website.

www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/faqs.htm)
"Now, a word of caution is in order. Bookstore availability is not necessarily the same as bookstore shelf display. For a book to be stocked by a bookstore, someone high in the hierarchy must decide to order it. Typically, it's not the store manager who makes such decisions, unless he runs an independent store. Larger chains such as Waldenbooks and Borders have "buyers" who select which titles are to be stocked. Oftentimes, they want to see some noise happening before they move.

"Local bookstores like to be able to demonstrate that there is demand for a book. If they can show demand, their superiors (those "buyers") may permit them to stock. And since a book on display helps create demand, a ripple effect begins."
******************************************

What PublishAmerica does not tell you is that those "buyers" do not consider non returnable titles. Those "buyers" select books from catalogs (which PublishAmerica does not have) and from recommendations from the publisher's sales reps (which PublicAmerica does not have).

They also often base title selection upon reviews in industry magazines such as Publishers Weekly, Booklist, and Kirkus Reviews. PublishAmerica books are not reviewed by those magazines.

PublishAmerica has stated that 240 books a business day are ordered by bricks and mortar bookstores by phone or through the PublishAmerica web site. PublishAmerica has nearly 6000 titles available so only 4% of their titles are ordered by brick and mortar stores a day.

There are 2200 chain stores in the US, if 240 PublishAmerica books are ordered that translates to just over 11% of the stores order PublishAmerica books.

When PublishAmerica books are found in bricks and mortar bookstores, it is almost always because the author bought the books from PublishAmerica, paid for them, and placed the books in the bookstore on consignment. Consignment means the bookstore doesn't pay the author until the book is sold.

*********************
Dee

[James D Macdonald]

Consignment means the bookstore doesn't pay the author until the book is sold.

The author also pays the bookstore a percentage of the price to carry the book.

If the author bought the book at a 30% discount, and the bookstore demands a 40% cut of the cover price, the author takes a 10% loss on each book sold (without considering the cost of shipping).

When bookstores order books directly from PublishAmerica, they're requested to pay cash up front, by credit card or some other cash equivalent. This violates standard practice; bookstores expect to pay 60-90 days after ordering.

[AnneMarble]

Subtracting for weekends, each editor would have to edit a little over one book per day. Not just read, but edit one book per day. The average novel has about 90,000 words. A professional editor can edit a 90,000 word book in 30 to 40 hours.

For comparison... I edit articles for a biochemistry journal (after they have been peer reviewed). In my department, the editors try to aim for editing two biochemistry articles per day. (The print-outs are usually around 25 pages; the one I'm working on now has about 6,000 words, although I'm not sure if that's an average.) And that's only after we've been through several months of training.

To be fair, we don't do a lot of rewriting. (Because the manuscripts have been reviewed for scientific thingies and because we're cautious about changing the meaning.) Also, most of the scientists remember to do spell checks, and some even hire professional translators and editors. However, the grammar and clarity of the manuscripts varies widely. Also, lots of things can "go wrong" with a manuscript. So on some days, two manuscripts is a real stretch.

[lindylou45]

Dee,

Thank you so much for this information. You are a godsend!

[lindylou45]

From the PA boards:

Message:
Hi,
I've recently signed my contract with PA and need more time to get in my AQ than they've given me because I have two introductions being written by others, which aren't ready yet. Do you think PA'll allow me extra time? They're so slow to respond to my queries, that I am quite frustrated. Does PA publish two lists a year or do they publish on a continual basis? If more than two a year, I can probably get more time. I'd appreciate any responses from those with experience. Thanks!
Hedda Nussbaum
"Surviving Intimate Terrorism"

Message:

Actually, this is the best place to ask and get answers. I wish I knew about extending the time limit, but I haven't had that particular problem. I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it. They're pretty good about working with us to solve problems.

Are you "that" Hedda?


Thanks for giving me support on this issue. I HAVE been losing sleep over it.
And yes, I am "that" Hedda, and my book tells the whole story.
Hedda


Do a google search on Hedda Nussbaum. Her story will sell thousands of books just because of her name/fame.

Hedda, I think your title is excellent. Don't worry, we're here for moral support and to answer all your questions.



Why would Hedda Nussbaum sign with PA when she used to work for Random House???:shrug

[Sher2]

Why would Hedda Nussbaum sign with PA when she used to work for Random House???


I had just logged on to pose that same question, but you beat me to it, Lindylou. One of those "great minds" things, I guess.;)

So -- this is mind boggling. Is it a(nother) hoax, or is it the real deal? If it's on the level, why on earth would a woman with a famous, if infamous, name sign with PA for $1.00 when she once worked for Random House and could probably have her pick of publishers to tell her story? Publishers who would not only pay her well but who would not reduce her to peddling her books to her relatives and neighbors, either.

[arainsb123]

While this does seem a bit unlikely, maybe PA is actually offerring her a decent publishing contract. They need successful authors to help raise their reputation from deep within the dumpster. So I wouldn't be too surprised if they actually did some real promotion, editing, and all the other good stuff for this author. If they don't, they'll have a very famous author spreading the truth about them far and wide.

[lindylou45]

While this does seem a bit unlikely, maybe PA is actually offerring her a decent publishing contract. They need successful authors to help raise their reputation from deep within the dumpster. So I wouldn't be too surprised if they actually did some real promotion, editing, and all the other good stuff for this author.


If they are, it seems that she's already getting frustrated with their slow response. If they are trying to bring their reputation out of the dumpster, you'd think they'd treat her a little better.

[vstrauss]

If this indeed is "that" Hedda Nussbaum, I saw an interview with her on Larry King Live more than a year ago in which she talked about her agent shopping a book about her experience. Maybe she didn't get any takers. It still seems really strange, though. She'd be better off self-publishing.

I very much doubt that PA has any interest in offering decent publishing contracts to anyone. Whatever receptacle its reputation may reside in, it's pulling down the big bucks doing exactly what it's doing.

- Victoria

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And yes, I am "that" Hedda, and my book tells the whole story.<hr></blockquote>
Oh, that poor, poor woman. If her agent did this to her, I imagine that his next bath will be a vat of burning oil. <img border=0 src="http://www.absolutewrite.com/images/emotessh.gif" />

[Whachawant]

FIRST OF ALL .. "PRO AND CON IM NOT RATING FELLOW AUTHORS... " at all, not even close.. you have to admit that using P.A. is a mistake ( espcially after 120 pages of post ) and the statement .." doing the best they can...." .....well.. even you have to admit ... the best they can is not with P.A. 'they are crap anyways'.. is that better?... they meaning P.A.... pretty bad when I have to explain my posts to people who are complaining about the same company I am. No one should be feeling sorry for these people right now maybe a slap in the face is what they need to realize 'they are' defending a corporation that is brining them down.

"derogetory posts...?????...give me a break... comedy is good..it keeps us healthy...."

...and besides I was trying to be funny .. apparently I didn't do such a good job with you.. (I'm sorry) but c'mon ya must have saw some humor somewhere (didn't ya)???????

look... good authors get good publishers....(nuff said)....

It wasn't mean.. It was meant to be funny ... here's a quarter...go buy yourself a sense of humour.....


No .. I'm not the king of the hill... I'm the guy at the landfill site.......

[James D Macdonald]

I can't imagine any legitimate agent selling a book to PublishAmerica. What would he get, $0.15?

No, in this case I think the agent eventually said, "Look, no one wants your book."

She said, "You're fired," or "I'll sell it myself, then." Maybe both.

I think that what we're going to see is the proof of the adage that if you've written a book that people want to read, you'll find a legitimate publisher. If you haven't, no vanity publishing scheme on earth will help you.

Either she's been fooled by PA's false and misleading claims that they are a "traditional publisher" (and to bolster this impression, there's the fact that she's asking about which "list" her book will go on -- something that your average PA author -- and editor -- won't know how to answer because the concept is alien to them), or she's desperate.

Look at poor Amy "The Long Island Lolita" Fisher's book, which she had printed by iUniverse. Or Buddy "Jed Clampett" Ebsen's book, printed by AuthorHouse, or Ellen "Grandma Walton" Corby's autobiography printed by Vantage, or Jamie "Corporal Klinger" Farr's book printed by PublishAmerica. Celebrity (or notoriety) doesn't automatically get your books bought, not by editors, not by the public.

When no one else wants your book, the vanity presses are ready to step forward.


<HR>
[update]
<BLOCKQUOTE>NUSSBAUM: I have written a book. And one of the reasons I'm now giving interviews is that my agent right now has the book and is...

KING: Going to get it published.

NUSSBAUM: Trying to get it published. Yes. </blockquote>
<a href="http://www.rickross.com/reference/abusive/abusive1.html" target="_new">Interview, Larry King Live</a>

<HR>

Ms. Nussbaum wasn't on PA's list of previously traditionally published authors who were joining them. Perhaps they didn't know who she is either?

Her two previous books are 3rd grade level science books, <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394838505/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/" target="_new">Animals Build Amazing Homes</a>, and <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394832329/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/" target="_new">Plants Do Amazing Things</a>.

For more about the crime she was involved in, check <a href="http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/family/lisa_steinberg/1.html?sect=12" target="_new">here</a>.

[James D Macdonald]

<Blockquote>PublishAmerica has stated that 240 books a business day are ordered by bricks and mortar bookstores by phone or through the PublishAmerica web site. PublishAmerica has nearly 6000 titles available so only .04% of their titles are ordered by brick and mortar stores a day.

There are 2200 chain stores in the US, if 240 PublishAmerica books are ordered that translates to just over 1% of the stores order PublishAmerica books.</blockquote>

Please check the math. The correct percentages are 4% and 11%, respectively.

[dgkgoldberg]

I do not think so. Good authors have a better chance at getting an offer from a good publisher.

Many writers who do not know the business of writing make bad choices.

[publishorperish]

[James D Macdonald]

Ms. Hilton allegedly didn't write her own book, because she doesn't know how to write.

Allegedly, she didn't read her own book, because she doesn't know how to read.

That was okay -- the publisher arranged to have someone read her book to her (presumably so she'd know what was in it, on the off chance that someone asked).

Allegedly the book didn't hold her attention. So, to give her something to do while someone read her book to her, she was allegedly given a picture of herself to contemplate while the reading went on.

If you are a professional writer, someday you might get tapped to write a book for someone like Paris Hilton.

[HConn]

:lol

[RealityChuck]

When bookstores order books directly from PublishAmerica, they're requested to pay cash up front, by credit card or some other cash equivalent. This violates standard practice; bookstores expect to pay 60-90 days after ordering.Funny that PA mentions the standard practice when authors complain about low royalties, but it's "cash up front" when talking to bookstores.

[publishorperish]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Allegedly the book didn't hold her attention. So, to give her something to do while someone read her book to her, she was allegedly given a picture of herself to contemplate while the reading went on.<hr></blockquote>

<img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif" />

[CaoPaux]

Here’s the PM listing for Hedda, dated June 2003:

www.publishersmarketplace...ts_no=1351 (http://www.publishersmarketplace.com/cgi-bin/displayRights.pl?rights_no=1351)

As a datapoint, Bly’s book is now listed as sold.

www.publishersmarketplace...hts_no=663 (http://www.publishersmarketplace.com/cgi-bin/displayRights.pl?rights_no=663)

Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, I did email Bly’s agent a while back with a few of the warning sites re: PA, so at least he can no longer say he isn’t aware of any problem with them….

:ack

[Savannah Blue]

Cao, thanks for posting those links. Now others have 2 more agents to beware of. An agent that would send you to PA can't be that good.
SB

[JohannaJ7]

look... good authors get good publishers....(nuff said).... Because the magic angels of justice make it so? :wha A good author can still make a bad choice, because no matter how brilliant you are, you're still human.

[ncq13]

**When bookstores order books directly from PublishAmerica, they're requested to pay cash up front, by credit card or some other cash equivalent. This violates standard practice; bookstores expect to pay 60-90 days after ordering.**

Where did you get this information? Do you have proof in writing? If you do, I would like to see it so it can find its way to more PA authors...
Thanks!

[GigiSahi]

Publish America is God's punishment to good authors for not learning the publishing business beforehand.

I'm sure the overwhelming majority of PA's authors will agree that we've suffered long enough. Where's a messiah when you need one?

~Gigi

[publishorperish]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Publish America is God's punishment to good authors for not learning the publishing business beforehand.<hr></blockquote>

This is a little too much!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm sure the overwhelming majority of PA's authors will agree that we've suffered long enough. Where's a messiah when you need one?</<hr></blockquote>

Unfortunately, Publish America seems to attract too many authors who are overly attached to their words and, therefore, extremely emotional. I'm no fan of PA, but calling for a messiah is or saying that you've "suffered" is over-exaggerating. Suffering is being captured by Islamic fanatics and having your head sliced off. Suffering is having to live without electricity for days in the deep south because of Hurricane Ivan. Suffering is being forced to starve to death for your political/religious/ideological beliefs.

You haven't *really* suffered by signing a contract with PA. You just made a really dumb decision. True, this decision may make life a little harder for you. True, it sucks to be ripped-off. However, being snubbed by PA does not rise to an apocalyptic level of human suffering. You don't need a messiah. You need a healthy dose of cynicism. You need to not become too emotionally attached to your words and if you can't do that, then maybe you shouldn't be handling your own business affairs.

[Whachawant]

Welll......part of being a good author, from the looks of comments previously posted on this thread and others, is doing the research, background checks, and talking to other authors. I am beyond sure that all of you, who have been burned by poor publishers, would tend to lend advice to anyone asking the questions.
Its definitely easy to obtain information now, so if somebody types in scams, publishers, or self-publishing into their browser, the information, discussion forums, and recommendations should be enough to make a clear decision. I typed in publishing and P.A. wasn't even on the first page. Then I tried self publishing, LuLu came up(we'll leave that alone). Finally I typed publish scams. Seventh one down was P.A.
Long before computers, I just went to a book store and started coping down publishers addresses and queried them with an introduction letter. Almost all responded with guidelines.
'Don't have a computer?' .. forget this excuse. Libraries have computers now a day's and there are also Internet cafes!! Have a cup of joe, while planning a chapter in your life. Obtaining information is not holding anybody back.

It seems that being over anxious and hasty makes improper decisions. "HASTE MAKES WASTE". These people just see 'publish your own book' for a fee and are not doing any proper research. Regardless of how many posts saying P.A. is no good. THAT, is their fault entirely. Any type of endeavor, needs planning. The arts, written, visual, performed,... are not immune to this characteristic. For those who omit this, places like P.A. cash in and will continue to do so...

Pretty sure 'Walter' is happy his creator didn't go to P.A. and I wouldn't be surprised if P.A. turned him down. Boy, that would raise a stink.....

[publishorperish]

gosh well said

[James D Macdonald]

Where did you get this information? Do you have proof in writing?


<BLOCKQUOTE>
We offer the following retailer discounts:

1-50 copies: 40%
51-100 copies: 45%
101+ copies: 50%

Our books are not returnable, and we require pre-payment by credit card (Visa, MasterCard, or American Express) or check or money order. Retailers may place an order by calling us at 301-695-1707.
</BLOCKQUOTE>

Go to your favorite local bookstore. Ask them to get PA's merchant information for you. That's what you'll get.

[Sher2]

Unfortunately, Publish America seems to attract too many authors who are overly attached to their words and, therefore, extremely emotional. I'm no fan of PA, but calling for a messiah is or saying that you've "suffered" is over-exaggerating. Suffering is being captured by Islamic fanatics and having your head sliced off. Suffering is having to live without electricity for days in the deep south because of Hurricane Ivan. Suffering is being forced to starve to death for your political/religious/ideological beliefs.

You haven't *really* suffered by signing a contract with PA. You just made a really dumb decision.

Have you published yet, Publishorperish? If not, then you're being educated in what to look for and what to avoid in a publisher. Some of us, unfortunately, didn't have the benefit of that education. Granted, it's my own fault for not Googling PA before the fact, but that's a moot point at this late date. Am I physically suffering for sacrificing a book to PA? Hardly. I wasn't all that attached to my words, and I have other words. Some PA authors, however, feel very strongly about wasting what might have been a perfectly fine book. I understand your point, but some folks actually are "suffering" in a very real sense of the word and their feelings shouldn't be trivialized. Whenever and however it happens, it's a blow to realize one has been scammed.

[vstrauss]

>> Now others have 2 more agents to beware of. An agent that would send you to PA can't be that good.<<

I'm not a betting person, but I would bet money that if Ms. Nussbaum went to PA, the Oscard Agency had nothing to do with it.

- Victoria

[publishorperish]

Actually, although I've never published a novel (I haven't written one), I know quite a bit about the publishing industry because I was in a creative writing program in college and I got to know agents, editors, and published writers. I am currently a professional writer and a law student. Frankly, I write with an eye toward publication everyday. (I'm also a bit of a slacker so I spend too much time on bbs! hehe!) I understand that people may believe that they are suffering because of this. However, I will submit that they must put the whole situation into perspective. Furthermore, if their work is indeed a quality piece of literature, then they should look to get out of the PA contract (it can be done) and keep submitting it to other publishers. Personally, if I had made this mistake, I would contact PA by certified mail, tell them they have breached the contract, and inform them that I intend to start shopping my manuscript around again. I would do this, because I doubt that they would take me to court. If they did, I think I would have a strong case against them.

**By "professional writer" I mean that I get paid to write. It is my day job.**

[aka eraser]

The blame-the-victim dance has been done on this board and others.

Naivete isn't a crime. Until fairly recently if one was to type "publish america" into Google a host of laudatory sites would pop up, including, of course, its own, trumpeting that T-word.

If one were a door-to-salesperson and had 40+consecutive doors slammed in their face, then one opens to reveal a smiling face who says "Come in, that sounds like just the product I've been looking for!": who could blame the salesperson for being delighted?

Some of us have been in the writing business long enough to sniff a scam. Many times it's because we've dealt with lying editors or bounced cheques. Some have been lucky enough to come across sites like this one before falling prey to one. Some are computer savvy and know how to do basic research and what keywords to use.

Others are not so fortunate or experienced or computer savvy but that doesn't mean they deserve their fate. Nor does it negate their pain.

[JohannaJ7]

Being a good author means that you can write a good book. The publishing part of it is mostly business, and it can be hard for some people to get into and understand.

Imagine you're a new writer from Little Town, USA. You've got your first novel finished and you can't wait to get it out there. First you need to find a publisher! It has to be one in the US, of course. After managing to wrestle the kids away from your slow, trusty old computer from 95 you go online, you go to Google... You type "Publisher +America". Guess which site comes up as number 3? ("Publisher USA" doesn't give many useful hits. You can type in "book publishing" though and PA pops up as number 1).

What you have to remember is that not everyone is good at doing research. Libraries have computers, yes--but how many people do you have to share it with? How many people have a suitable library near them? How many people have the time, what with children, spouses, day-jobs and so on? Not every new writer realises that there are scammers out there--they just write a nice book and hope to find a nice publisher and sell a nice amount to some nice people. PA's main prey is naive first-time authors--and with good reason. New authors easily believe the "Publishers never go with new writers"-mantra, some won't even blink when asked by an agent to pay a fee--I even spoke to one young man who was convinced that J.K. Rowling paid Bloomsbury to publish her, since "Everyone has to pay, right?" That guy didn't know what a query-letter was, nor did he know how to present his ms. Not because he’s stupid or lazy, but because it never occurred to him to research such things.

For every writer who ends up here (or a similar site), there's another one who is swept up by the PA-authors and their "enthusiasm". They'll talk with a friend who has a lovely book out with this wonderful "traditional publisher", or they'll stumble into an online forum run by PA-authors and so on. Once they've been told over and over how wonderful PA is for giving new writers a chance, and to watch out for the disgruntled naysayer ("a bunch of people who didn't market their books well enough and ended up selling poorly"), it's very hard to get them to turn around and look at PA objectively.

[keltora]

I have been a working writer since I sold my first artcle as a teenager. And even when I was a teenager, I knew how to do marketing research and how to spot a scam. It may have to do with having parents who raised me to be suspicious of everything that seemed too easy. But I read every book I could on the writing business. I read every writing magazine. And I learned very early that one did not pay anyone to publish their stuff. One got paid instead.

I am now almost fifty, have three novels published (two more forthcoming), a couple of short story collections in print, several dozen short stories in various magazines and anthologies. It took me nearly 30 years to sell my first novel, but I did it.

What my personal theory is on this subject: Patience is a virtue, hard work will get you what you want, and there are no short cuts to getting published. But too many people give up too easily. They become disillusioned with a system and look for short cuts like PA.

Marion Zimmer Bradley used to say, "No one told you not to be a plumber."

No one told me how to avoid the scammers. I just did.

So I suspect that any PA author willing to do the work would have learned before they signed that contract that they were making a mistake and letting themselves be taken advantage of. If I could do it when I was only a teenager, so could they as adults...

:coffee

[publishorperish]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Patience is a virtue, hard work will get you what you want, and there are no short cuts to getting published. <hr></blockquote>

*exactly*

[Whachawant]

Naivete isn't a crime.

neither is ignorance... but look where it gets us.

Eliminate the computer from the topic for just a second.
Even when you go through book stores they have references to publishing, editors, scams, get rich quick schemes and they have had these since I can remember. Talking to people in general, also brings about results. No time, too much work. Talk to people at work about it then.
"Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it" .. If you know of people who have been scammed and you have had a conversation with them to drag out details, chances are that makes you more aware of what is going on. If you don't make use of the knowledge, then you have failed life's learning test.
I still say you have to treat the arts as a business. Therefore you need a business plan. You'll find this information in manuals at the book store as well.

"I bet none of you jump into the bath tub with both feet, cause chances are you'd slip". That's what happens to people who go with P.A. ... they slip.

Back to ignorance..P.A. should have been shut down long ago. I've never seen a book published by them in a store, and I don't expect to. With 9,000 authors(I think that's right) that have supposedly been published by this company, and probably ripped off, where is their participation in this? If they all grouped together and fought this scam artist, it would be one more criminal down for the count and a few less people being taken for a ride.:head

[GigiSahi]

By learning the truth about PA too late, I have definitely suffered and I am continuing to suffer--artistically. While shopping my second novel, I've already encountered brick walls. I'd openly admitted with whom I'd published my debut novel. Say "PublishAmerica" to a reputable agent and/or publisher--stand back--'cause the stuff's about to hit the fan! No legitimate publisher or agent (that I've thusfar contacted) wants to be remotely associated with PA. I can't say I blame them. As a result, I'm considering using a pseudonym and publishing my second novel as though it's my first. I see no other way of removing the PA cloud hanging over my head.

While I applaud this thread for the wealth of information that's here, which certainly acts as a deterrent to anyone considering publishing with PA, there isn't enough awareness about this thread or other warnings about the scams in the publishing industry. Of course, new writers know that scams exist in the publishing business. That applies to any business. Learning exactly who's pulling the scams is a different matter. New writers usually learn who the cons are AFTER it's too late. One could search the internet, the library or ask questions as the day is long, there is no guarantee that the scam artists will always be avoided. For those of you who've managed to be traditionally published and avoid the scams--kudos!

I thought that I took all the necessary steps and made all the right moves PRIOR to submitting my first ms. Apparently not, because I've been scammed. I've mentally kicked myself repeatedly over the past few months for being so stupid. That compounds my suffering. Publishing with PA was not a hasty decision--I search unsuccessfully for two years to have my novel published. Was publishing with PA a short-cut? Hardly. Who is his right mind would take a short-cut through the meadow knowing there are snakes in the grass?

Publishing with PA was an uninformed decision. I belong to a few on-line writers' groups. Every few months, a new writer will join and blissfully announce that he/she has just signed with PA. The more experienced writers, some have been duped by PA themselves, will then break the news to this unsuspecting, new author. That unsuspecting, new author is now left feeling foolish, embarrassed, angry, robbed of a dream and helpless to do anything about it--short of spending money he/she doesn't have to get out of the contract. That's provided that he/she can find an attorney willing to take on his/her case. This is no easy task considering numerous complaints against PA have been filed with the Maryland AG's office and the BBB--all of which have fallen on deaf ears. If that isn't suffering, then I don't know what is.

Could that suffering be compared to starving oneself to death for ones beliefs? No-it's worse! Starving oneself is self-inflicted and the individual went into the situation fully aware of the consequences. As for those beheaded--did they not know a war was going on? As for natural disasters in tropical countries and the deep south, they've been happening in those places for ages--why do you think the land's so cheap? Is that enough cynicism for you? It never ceases to amaze me how those on the outside looking in always have all the answers. Forgive me if I'm extremely emotional about this subject. At present, I am overly attached to my words.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some more suffering to do. I have to agonize over which fake name to use as a writer.

~ Gigi

[DaveKuzminski]

If you have a middle name, add it to your byline. If you were already using it, then drop it from your byline. That's all it takes to distinguish you from you.

Similar problems to that happen all the time among authors with similar names. For illustration, one writes as Winston Churchill and the next uses Winston W. Churchill.

[publishorperish]

I find it disturbing how quickly you diminish the real pain and suffering of others while insisting that you have suffered more. Because to berate you would be off topic and wrong, I'm going to ignore it. Anyhow best of luck with your writing.

[vstrauss]

Gigi, you don't have to change your name. The PA stigma applies to your book, not to you. It's not as if your PA book will make you notorious; in fact, it will be so obscure no one will even know about it. You can submit to better publishers under your real name without worry. Just don't claim the PA book as a publishing credit.

>>Of course, new writers know that scams exist in the publishing business.<<

In my experience, the scams and pitfalls that writers most commonly fear aren't the scams and pitfalls they should really be worrying about.

What writers should fear:

- Agents without track records
- Agents who charge upfront for marketing/editing/some other form of service
- Pay-to-play publishers
- Non-pay publishers that can't market and distribute their books
- Bogus writers' services (such as those publicity services that promise to spam bookstores for you)

What writers do fear:

- Reading fees (almost no one charges a reading fee anymore, not even the scammers)
- Theft and plagiarism of their unpublished work (in fact, this is so rare as to be functionally nonexistent)
- Theft of their ideas (again, rare--and even if your idea is good enough to steal, which most people's aren't, another person won't make of it what you will)
- Elaborate skullduggery on the part of agents and publishers designed to steal work and/or money or otherwise make a secret profit (in fact the scams are pretty straightforward, since it's easier just to persuade you to hand over the cash directly)

- Victoria

[SRHowen]

Victoria I couldn't agree more with your list. I see so often writers agonizing over someone might steal their work, while they blissfully ignore the real foes out there. They are so very attached to their words, everything I write is pure gold, that they fear the unreasonable and many time buy into the scams.

As to suffering, I don't think one kind of situation can be compared to another. While in the midst of the suffering any situation can seem the worst that person has endured, and in fact it may be the worst that person has endured.

When I was in a car wreck at that moment I thought that was the worst thing that could have happened to me. That vanished when the store I work at was held up at gun point. Both those things pale compared to the hell I suffered every single day that my husband was in Iraq.

What really causes the suffering is the inability to do anything about the situation, no matter what. Anything no matter how small or large can cause pain and suffering--:cry Unless you are int hat person's shoes you have no idea what it is to them.

People whose spouses never went to war have no idea what it is like to wake up every day wondering if the knock at the door will come. If you've never had something of yours taken from you--and this includes the dream of having your book published you have no idea what it feels like.

You simply can't compare one situation to the other. Suffering is suffering no matter the cause.

Shawn

[publishorperish]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What really causes the suffering is the inability to do anything about the situation, no matter what.<hr></blockquote>

People who have been scammed can do lots of things about it. My point, again, was to put what GigiSahi and a lot of other people are going through into perspective. These are things they can do stuff about. Certainly, having a book under contract with a disreputable publishing company is a p.i.t.a., but its not the end of the world.

[JohannaJ7]

People who have been scammed can do lots of things about it. My point, again, was to put what GigiSahi and a lot of other people are going through into perspective. These are things they can do stuff about. Certainly, having a book under contract with a disreputable publishing company is a p.i.t.a., but its not the end of the world.
What can they do about it? There are no laws against what PA is doing. Getting your rights back is hard work when they won't even communicate with you.

Losing a book to PA, and having to bear that stain, is more than a pain in the arse. Some people write down their life-story, of abuse, losing children, losing lovers, death, divorce, war--and then they lose it to a scam like PA. I think that's something to cry about. It's a huge chunk of their life, something they've carried inside of them, being ruined by a company that doesn't even care.

[publishorperish]

I'm not saying they can't cry about it. They can cry all they want. They can whine. They can drop into utter dispair and never write again. I sincerely hope that they don't. I hope, instead, that they learn from this experience and share their wisdom with others. I don't agree with you that they don't have any regress against P.A. I think that they possibly do.
I also have a lot of respect for people who have the patience, the fortitude, the creativity, and the time to write a whole book. I think they should fight for their books.

[HapiSofi]

Telling someone who's in pain that their suffering is trivial never works. In my experience, people who say things like that tend to not have done a lot of suffering of their own. Try hanging out with crips, chronic illness cases, and people who've suffered severe abuse. They don't play one-upmanship games.

PublishorPerish, I'm sure it wasn't intentional. If you tell me so, I'll rejoice to hear it. But we're all writers here, so I'm giving you feedback: you sounded like you were doing a bit of a superiority dance.

Should people have checked out PA more carefully? Sure. It's always good to check things out in advance. I'm likewise sure that PA's victims have blamed themselves, over and over again, for not spotting PA's con games in advance. And of course PublishAmerica agrees with you on this point; "Obviously, you didn't read the contract carefully enough" is one of their basic riffs.

But you know what? Dee Power's not a naif. She had several books in print from real publishing houses before she ran afoul of PA. Canada James sells books for a living. Hedda Nussbaum worked for a major publisher for years. Something more than the the naive aspiring writer's proverbial willingness to be deceived is at work here.

Why Reading the Fine Print Isn't Enough:

I have seldom seen such artfully and deliberately misleading language as PublishAmerica uses in their contracts and public information documents. It's all very well to sit back and say the authors should have done more research so they'd know what they were getting into; but the fact is, it's impossible to arrive at an accurate reading of PA's contracts and web pages if you assume they're acting in good faith. Only bitter experience can reveal to authors that PublishAmerica's definition of "available" amounts to "PA won't refuse outright to sell a copy of a book to someone who phones them long distance, with all the pertinent information and an approved credit card in hand, to place a prepaid special order."

PublishAmerica is no more about selling books to the general public than Amway is about selling them soap, and it obscures that fact for the same reason that Amway does: No one who understood the real setup would ever go into business with them.

Here's where the authors go astray: Printing isn't publishing. In a real trade publishing house, roughly half the total staff works in sales, marketing, advertising, promotion, and publicity. All the departments' schedules are driven by sales cycles and the needs of distributors. Of course, this will be wasted effort if editorial doesn't acquire good manuscripts and production doesn't turn them into good books; but equally, the books will be wasted if they aren't packaged, described, reviewed, and distributed -- in short, if they aren't properly labeled for what they are, and put where their readers can find them.

Much of this work is semi-invisible to people outside the industry. Like European explorers who had some notion that they could reach China by sailing west, but weren't aware that there was another whole continent in between, the general public knows that authors exist, and they're vaguely aware that editors and perhaps even typesetters exist; but they're unaware that anything intervenes between that point and the arrival of finished copies at their local bookstore.

This area of confusion is the basis for PublishAmerica's con games. They don't publish in the sense of making the book public, and they barely even print it. This is hugely cheaper and easier than running a real publishing operation. The only problem is, it doesn't work. PA knows from the start that it isn't going to work, but they leave their authors to find that out the hard way.

Some specific deceptions:

They tell their authors their books will be available from the same distributors all the big, established publishers use. This is true. Ingram and Baker & Taylor, the two biggest distributors in the United States, will stock one or maybe two copies of a PA title, to save themselves the trouble of having to obtain a copy from PA in the unlikely event that someone special-orders it. You don't need PublishAmerica for that. Ingram will do the same for any book that has a functional ISBN.

They tell their authors that PA's books are sold in brick-and-mortar bookstores across the country. They don't mention that they're talking about a tiny number of books and a tiny number of stores, because the sole mechanism whereby their books get onto actual retail shelves is that the authors personally go out to their local bookstores and beg and plead with the managers to stock a couple of copies. They don't mention that any author could do the same at their own local bookstores, no matter who's listed as the publisher.

They say they'll help the author promote the book. They don't say they'll send out a perfunctory electronic press release unaccompanied by copies of the book, than which nothing could be more useless. They also don't mention things like their persistent refusal to send out review copies, even when it's a legit reviewer who's written to ask for a copy. They especially don't mention that they don't bother to do all that troublesome sales & marketing stuff. As with their promised bookstore distribution, the only people who actually put any work into promoting PublishAmerica's books are the authors.

They say, with brazen mendacity, that they're a traditional, conservative publishing house that makes its money selling its authors' books. No one who works in the real publishing industry would ever describe PA as traditional or conservative, and they'd find it a strain to describe PA as a publishing company. You know those cardboard mockup computers that furniture stores put into displays of office furniture? If you've worked in the industry, PA looks like a publishing company about as much as those cardboard mockups look like real computers.

Furthermore, almost all the money PA makes selling books comes from their authors and the authors' friends and relations. PublishAmerica says, emphatically and repeatedly, that they aren't a vanity publishing operation. That's true. They aren't. They're a vanity publishing operation that happens to also sell a tiny number of retail copies on the side. They have no sales force and no trade or ID distribution deals, and they give the general public no encouragement to buy their books.

They say that "when you get published by PublishAmerica, you eliminate all the problems associated with self publishing a book." (http://www.publishamerica.com/get-published-free/) They don't mention that they expect their authors to do every scrap of work they'd do if they were self-publishing. What they really don't mention is that since (1.) their books are sold on a non-returnable basis, (2.) they don't offer booksellers a standard discount, (3.) they insist on setting their cover prices higher than the market will accept, and (4.) their name is a hissing and a byword, being published under their imprint will actually make it harder for their authors to distribute and market their books than it would be if the authors had printed and bound them in their own basements, or had them run off at at the copy shop down the street.

And then, when their authors realize that what they're getting is nothing like what they were led to expect, PublishAmerica sneers at them, and says they should have read the fine print more carefully.

To hell with that. Yes, I'll agree that some of their authors were imprudent. That doesn't get PublishAmerica off the hook. The primary reason their authors were deceived was because PA made every effort to deceive them. Reasonable prudence will not protect you from out-and-out deceit. This is why failure to exercise due prudence just makes you liable, but fraud is a crime. And though some of their authors let themselves be more easily fooled, it nevertheless remains that PublishAmerica's intentions were every bit as bad in their case as they were in any other.

End of rant.

A few additional remarks:

As I said earlier, PublishAmerica is a vanity press that misrepresents itself as a normal commercial publishing company. The basis of this claim is that they will sell copies of their titles to the general public, though they give the public no encouragement to do so, and they don't make the transaction easy or convenient for them.

Think of bookselling as ice cream sold at the beach. Normal publishers and booksellers are like ice cream stands: they've got all their flavors right there where you can see them, clearly and attractively packaged, and they'll maybe even give you a sample to help you decide. You pay your money, they hand you your cone, everybody's happy.

PublishAmerica is like a guy who's nailed a few boards together to make a booth. There's no sign on the outside and no ice cream on the inside. He's reading the paper. You have to figure out on your own that he's selling ice cream, then interrupt his reading to ask him about it, at which point he'll silently push a hard-to-make-out list of flavors across the counter at you. If you then decide to buy an ice cream cone from him -- and they aren't cheap -- he'll give you a slip of paper you can carry to another guy back in the parking lot who's got a small ice chest in the trunk of his car. If that guy has run out, you'll just have to wait there in the parking lot while he goes to get more.

Under those circumstances, can you say that the ice cream in the parking lot is available for sale? Technically, it is. Realistically, it doesn't have a hope in hell of selling. And if you're an ice cream maker who's signed a seven-year exclusive contract with these guys on the understanding that they're going to do everything necessary to get your ice cream into the hands of the general public, you'd have a right to think you've been mistreated and deceived.

[publishorperish]

Superiority dance? No. (When I first heard about P.A., I thought it was a valid way to get a book out there. I've never had a book published. I have no reason to feel superior to anyone.)
Practicality, Common Sense, and Perspective Dance? Definitely!

1. I'm not blaming anyone for going with P.A. (Who knows, I might have done the same thing if I had been in a similar position.)
2. I'm just suggesting less emotion and victimhood, and more a$$-kicking.
3. IMHO - I think it trivializes the plight of battered wives, abused children, and all victims of crimes, inhumanity, and mother nature, etc to say that by getting scammed by P.A. you have suffered enough to need a messiah or to give up. That's not me thinking I'm better than everyone (I assure you, I am NOT). That's me putting things into perspective. To be cliche, this too shall pass...(Just don't let it pass without doing anything about it!)
4. IMHO - writing is hard, getting published is harder

[AnneMarble]

What writers do fear:
- Theft and plagiarism of their unpublished work (in fact, this is so rare as to be functionally nonexistent)
- Theft of their ideas (again, rare--and even if your idea is good enough to steal, which most people's aren't, another person won't make of it what you will)

That's why I was so startled recently when I read a post by an author on a mailing list, where the author said her editor had told her she shouldn't post snippets of her work in progress on the web. Her editor also told her that she shouldn't post summaries of her WIP on-line.

The author posting this is an e-book author, so I'm assuming that this was her "e-editor." So maybe this is a reminder to aspiring writers that some e-book editors will not understand all aspects of publishing, and may even be completely misinformed about some aspects. :eek If the editor gets submissions that have plots similar to that book, will she think that they stole the plots because that poor writer posted a summary of her upcoming book on-line? :shrug And this is an editor working for a reputable e-publisher.

Still, considering some of the others in the field, she was probably fairly knowledgable. For example, she wasn't like that small e-publisher whose owner thought it was a "bonus" for writers that his electronic publishing company didn't have contracts as that gave writers more "freedom"!

[Whachawant]

What really causes the suffering is the inability to do anything about the situation.....


Truthful quote.....

Strangely enough all great plans must start small..... the demise of P.A. is not within each of us individually.... its within us collectively.

In order to bring about change one must cause a disturbance first....... all of us, willfully or not, caused something to happen during a discussion that prompted an action. I realize I may sound like a jerk sometimes, but my misunderstood sarcastic humor has brought about discussions not normally posted. Some even agree with me, publishorperish quote:"You need a healthy dose of cynicism." ,...this is damn close to the slap in the face I'd like to give some of the authors posted on P.A. board... and I agree on topics of,....quote ".....I'm just suggesting less emotion and victim-hood, and more a$$-kicking......"... (I have nothing against Caupaux, or Proandcon either)

Gigi,...sorry about your troubled times, but its time to get back on the horse...we are not on the 'outside' looking in, we're here in the same room with a chair and comfort.. we're here for you... now start writing, and (in your spare time) talk about your experience with others. You have the ability to, not only learn from your bad experience, but to teach others. Possibly even write about them.

These on going personal tragedies are proof of how little the public knows about scams and similar crimes. The fact that this continues and expands in popularity is evidence that the legal system concerning certain types of publication and marketing,...is flawed and should be reviewed. Obviously loop holes are being jumped through.
It is up to us collectively to solve the problem and there is enough experience and knowledge on this board to do it.

[HapiSofi]

Anne Marble said:That's why I was so startled recently when I read a post by an author on a mailing list, where the author said her editor had told her she shouldn't post snippets of her work in progress on the web. Her editor also told her that she shouldn't post summaries of her WIP on-line.

The author posting this is an e-book author, so I'm assuming that this was her "e-editor." So maybe this is a reminder to aspiring writers that some e-book editors will not understand all aspects of publishing, and may even be completely misinformed about some aspects. If the editor gets submissions that have plots similar to that book, will she think that they stole the plots because that poor writer posted a summary of her upcoming book on-line? And this is an editor working for a reputable e-publisher.

Still, considering some of the others in the field, she was probably fairly knowledgable. For example, she wasn't like that small e-publisher whose owner thought it was a "bonus" for writers that his electronic publishing company didn't have contracts as that gave writers more "freedom"!
Agreed. I have trouble with the whole concept of an "e-editor". Sure, some of the technical details are going to be different, but the whole e-publishing thing is just another way to reproduce and distribute text. The core of an editor's job shouldn't be affected all that much by being an "e-editor".

Let me tell you the weirdest thing I know about all those e-publishing/online publishing/POD startups. But before I do that, an explanation: the publishing industry is full of people who have years and years of professional experience, but are currently between in-house jobs. It happens. While they're in that condition, they always have two or three part-time gigs. Having all that expertise available for hire on a freelance basis is one of the things that keeps publishing going.

So here's the weird thing: None of those many publishing startups hired, or even attempted to hire, any industry people I know. Those companies were started by inexperienced people who vaguely thought they knew what they were doing, and when they got capitalization, they hired other inexperienced people who vaguely thought they knew what they were doing.

Some of the contracts they came up with were just plain ugly. The things weren't malign, or deliberately dishonest, but they were framed by people who didn't know what they were doing. I'm still wondering what the authors did whose publishers went out of business, leaving them with contracts that didn't have reversion clauses.

[JohannaJ7]

3. IMHO - I think it trivializes the plight of battered wives, abused children, and all victims of crimes, inhumanity, and mother nature, etc to say that by getting scammed by P.A. you have suffered enough to need a messiah or to give up. That's not me thinking I'm better than everyone (I assure you, I am NOT). That's me putting things into perspective. To be cliche, this too shall pass...(Just don't let it pass without doing anything about it!)
What you're forgetting is that some of the people who have been scammed by PA wrote about the time when they were battered wives, absued children, a victim of a crime, inhumanity, and crimes against mother nature that they had to witness.

[ProandCon]

I don't have anything against anybody here either. As a PA author, I respond to posts usually if I think the PA authors themselves are being used as comic material. They are already hurting enough from PA's slight of hand trick.

I thought I read the contract carefully and their website information before I signed with them. Unfortunately the two killer problems, the No Return Policy and the high price of books not being displayed in the contract missed my radar. Actually I missed that information because PA chose to hide these facts from the contract and made the conscious decision to play the deceiving game. Why the Maryland Attorney General doesn't smell the rotten fish is anybody's guess? It would definitely have changed my decision to publish with PA. I hear "You should have read the contract better" from the PA cheerleaders on the PA board. Guess what, don't let your pride get in the way. You didn't think about the high book prices and No Return Policy either when you signed the contract. It is intentional deceiving by PA that you are ignoring and the AG is ignoring.

I did see the No Return Books policy on their ordering information but mistook that to mean the public couldn't return a book not the bookstores / distributors. I don't disagree that I should have did my homework better. When I started the process, there was not as much information out there or I didn't find it. I knew when Kevin got kicked off the PA board there was something going on that reeked of bullsh**. I heard the name Mindsight on the PA board and then the name of this board from the Mindsight.

I've read much information, in between the personal attacks on PA authors, that hopefully will help other future authors make the correct publishing decisions.

Whachawant wrote: "It is up to us collectively to solve the problem and there is enough experience and knowledge on this board to do it."

Whachawant is correct on the use of collective power to press the issue to make PA treat authors fairly or try to drive them out of business. Would I like to see my publisher put out of business? No, I just want them to be what they advertise to be. A traditional publisher.
If they are put out of business because they won't change their deceiving practices, the collective power of the informed voices spoke.

What should the collective power do? Start the list of legal and peaceful things that can be undertaken.

A peaceful information march on their headquarters in Frederick

Anti PA mini camps at major book festivals to spread the word

Creation of an anti PA website that comes up in web searches when PA's site appears.

Publishorperish is not being greater than thou. He / she makes perfect sense to me.

What a person decides to write about is seperate from being deceived by PA. Yes, their personal story is close to their hearts but it was their decision to interject the pain into a book.

All the whining and I can't get back on the horse are dead end excuses. It won't change a thing and the circus continues unless the collective power becomes one voice.

Mr. Meiners and fellow PA authors reading this post,

The time has come to correct the deceiving flaws in the PA business model. If PA can't play by the traditional publishing's basic rules Mr. Meiners, you should cease operation or at least add the No Return Policy and higher than normal book prices information directly into the contract in bold print. You know in your heart that the deceivement is wrong.

Prove everybody wrong on this board, Mr. Meiners and do the right thing. We are not going away and will only do more legal things in the future to spread the information about PA to the unknowing future authors of the world.

Yes, I'm a present PA author but everyday that goes by and I hear the "Sorry, we can't stock No Return Books or your high book price doesn't allow me to make my required percentage mark up," you are pushing me, Mr. Meiners to abandon my book with PA and take up the cause to put PA out of business.

Come on, Mr. Meiners, do the right thing and change the PA business model of trapping authors into a bad business decision. How can an author make the right decision when the contract purposely leaves out two important facts?

[HapiSofi]

I have a theory that we're all on the same side.

PublishorPerish sees complaints from authors whom PA has scammed as an unproductive habit of focusing on their own sense of helplessness and victimization.

I see their complaints as a process of consciousness-raising (to use an old-fashioned term). They've been betrayed, and that hurt has to go somewhere. Way too often, it turns into solitary depression. If instead they talk to each other about what happened, and exchange experiences, it brings them back out into the light of common day. They get a better sense of what happened to them.

They also get back in touch with their own legitimate anger. That's good. Anger staves off depression. It also gets you moving. The reason anger comes packaged with an extra wallop of energy is so you can do something about whatever it was that made you angry in the first place.

[HapiSofi]

ProandCon said:Would I like to see my publisher put out of business? No, I just want them to be what they advertise to be. A traditional publisher.
Pro, it's not going to happen. This isn't a matter of PA changing a few policies and procedures.

A while back I compared PA to one of those mockup cardboard computers you see in furniture stores. Trying to turn them into a real publishing company would be like trying to turn one of those cardboard mockups into a real computer. The only way to do that is by constructing a real computer inside the box, then throwing the box away.

Same goes for PublishAmerica. They'd have to build a completely different company from the ground up, and they'd have to have different people running it. It would be just like starting a publishing company from scratch, only the company's name would already have a bad reputation attached to it.

[vstrauss]

>>Same goes for PublishAmerica. They'd have to build a completely different company from the ground up,<<

What's more, they'd have to want to. They don't. They never did. Their business model is exactly as they intend, and they're making money doing what they do. Why should they change--especially when becoming a real publisher involves hard work, actual expertise, and considerable financial risk?

- Victoria

[RealityChuck]

Similar problems to that happen all the time among authors with similar names. For illustration, one writes as Winston Churchill and the next uses Winston W. Churchill. As a matter of trivia, Winston Churchill did exactly that. He always wrote as Winston S. Churchill because he shared his first and last name with a massively popular (and now forgotten) US novelist.

[DaveKuzminski]

Now the PA authors are finding another message in their site guest books from someone identified as Larry Cloppers. Most of the comments were incensed and recommended responding to his provided email address. They didn't recognize him until Joyce Rapier piped in although she didn't tell the others what his exact position was in PA.

Yep, Joyce is definitely dangerous. She knows who is who and what's going on, yet she still supports PA. I think she recently tried to soften her image by resorting to a photo from her younger days.

[GigiSahi]

Ladies and Gentlemen

On this thread, some pages ago, I mentioned that I was going to contact an attorney and attempt to get out of my contract with PA. I did contact one attorney. He did not take my case. But he did give me a free consultation and advised that I should writer to PA directly with my concerns and ask that they clarify them.

I'm in dire need of your expertise. Please take a few minutes to read the following letter. I intend to e-mail the letter to PA as well as send it by registered mail. First, I request your input in making certain that my facts and figures are correct.

Also, does the letter come across as hostile? I ask this only because I do not want to give PA any excuses for not responding. And, how long should I wait for a reply before sending a second letter. Two weeks? A month? Pardon my ignorance but I've never had cause to write a letter such as this. Any feedback you could offer would be greatly appreciated. The sooner the beeter--as I do not want to sit on this.

Lastly, can anyone provide the name and title of a person I could address this to? Sarah Becker signed the only correspondence I received from PA (outside of my contract and the NYT thing). That correspondence included my $1.00 symbolic advance. But she listed her title as Text Production Manager. I'd like to go higher up.

TIA

~ Gigi

26 September 2004

Dear PublishAmerica:

Not too long ago, while searching for a reputable literary agent on the Preditors & Editors website, out of sheer curiosity I looked up PublishAmerica under the site's Book Publishers listing. I was surprised to see that P&E list PublishAmerica as "strongly not recommended". Naturally, as a PublishAmerica author, I wanted to know why. I clicked a link on the site, which took me to a second site. On that second site I discovered a thread warning against publishing with PublishAmerica. At the time, if memory serves correctly, that thread was 40-pages. As of this writing, that thread is now 124-pages and growing.

I diligently read each and every post from the beginning. The more I read, the more disheartened I became about being a PublishAmerica author. Many ugly comments were made regarding PublishAmerica. While I am willing to set aside the ugly comments as that of those voicing an opinion to which they are entitled, I can not set aside the facts that were presented.

FACT I: PublishAmerica has no return policy. (I can understand that policy applying to authors who purchase their own books. However, I can not understand why that policy would apply to bookstores). Please explain.

FACT II: PublishAmerica books are overpriced. (On average, PublishAmerica charges US$5.00 more for books than all other traditional publishers charge for books of an equal number of pages. Those traditional publishers include: Random House, Simon & Schuster and Penguin). Please explain.

FACT III: PublishAmerica offers a substandard bookstore/distributor discount. (The industry standard bookstore/distributor discount is in the 40% - 50% range. PublishAmerica's bookstore/distributor discount is in the 25% - 35% range). Please explain.

FACT IV: "We then announce your book to the industry listing it with Bowker's Books-In-Print and with wholesalers like Baker & Taylor, Brodart Co., and Ingram, and we make it available through the PublishAmerica website and online bookstores such as Amazon.com, Borders.com, BN.com, Chapters.com, and through the 50,000 corresponding "bricks and mortar" stores. Your book will be available through all of these channels within six weeks from the time you receive your complimentary author copies." (That is a direct quote from PublishAmerica in a letter you sent me date May 20, 2004 along with my $1.00 symbolic advance. My contract is dated March 22, 2004. Here's the dilemma, because of PublishAmerica's no return policy, overpriced books and substandard bookstore/distributor discount, no "bricks and mortar" bookstore will stock a PublishAmerica book. Not only will bookstores not stock a PublishAmerica book, they will not allow authors to hold book signings in their stores unless the author purchases his/her books him/herself. That way, if the books do not sell at signings, the author takes the lost and not the bookstore since PublishAmerica has no return policy). Please explain.

FACT V: PublishAmerica instructs its authors to register and pay out-of-pocket to copyright their own books in the author's name. (The industry practice is for the PUBLISHER to register the copyright in its author's name). Please explain.

PublishAmerica, by your own advertisement, you are a "traditional publisher". However--a bookstore return policy, books that are priced to market, a 40%-50% bookstore/distributor discount, books stocked and displayed in bricks and mortar bookstores and the publisher registering the copyright in its author's name--are all standard industry practices adhered by traditional publishers. If PublishAmerica is indeed the traditional publisher that it proclaims to be, then why is PublishAmerica not adhering to standard industry practices? Please explain.


Cordially,

Gigi Sahi
Author "Shame the Devil"

[D Dawes]

Gigi, although your questions are all straightforward and well formulated, PA will find a way to skirt around them by offering vague responses. I know you stated that you did not want to come off sounding antagonistic, but when dealing with unreceptive parties, you have to roll up your sleeves, slip on your boxing gloves, and be ready to rumble!

If it is your book rights that prompted you to transpose a letter to PA, then you need to also incorporate your request into the body of your first letter. And note, I emphasized ’First Letter” because it will be one of many. Due to the fact that PA has a history of filing away authors' concerns, don't allow too much time to elapse without following up with another letter.

From personal experiences, I can assure you their responses will zap the energy right out of you. :head Therefore, stand your ground and be firm when corresponding with those predators.

[KW]

The only reply you might get from PA regarding this letter/email will most likely be....

"Your statements are false and in the future refrain from speaking to us in that tone.

Author Support"

They never answer questions, just skirt around them and become verbally abusive. Your certified letter will be thrown in the trash, as they don't read letters, only email, and they will say that it never got to its intended reader, yet they will know what the letter said. They then will tell you that do not send them any letters as they will be discarded and future correspondence should only be through support@publishamerica.com.

Do I think we need a messiah? Yes I do, and I believe that he/she will come in the guise of an attorney willing to take on a class action suit.

Procon, who are you? I seen you mentioned me and I'm not familiar with who you are. Please email me, if you want to.

Kevin

[D Dawes]

Oops! Did my response to Gigi strike PA's resident Hellboy’s nerve? Here's another collectible in which my attorney will use against them.

Dear Juno Member,

Juno detected that an email message addressed to you may have been infected with a virus. This potentially harmful message has been blocked from your inbox and both you and the sender are being notified.

Listed below is information about the potentially infected message:


From: CITIBANK <identdep_op73664@citibank.com>
To: dawes00@juno.com
Sent: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 06:31:01 -0600
Subject: CitiBank Email Verification - [%To_Email]
Suspected Virus Name: HTML_CITIFRAUD.C

Juno is serious about protecting users from harmful computer viruses. For more information about how Juno protects you, why you are receiving this email and how you can protect yourself from viruses, visit www.juno.com/antivirus. (http://www.juno.com/antivirus.)

Sincerely,

Juno Customer Care

P.S. If Hellboy is on PA’s payroll, I hope they are willing to assist him with his legal fees. Yeah that’s right, you’ve been busted!

[bluwinteryfox]

I received an entry in my guest book by this Larry too. I decided to check out the IP address and could not find it. I tried 3 different reverse IP address lookups. I then sent an email to this person and told them that I was not going to complain on the PA message board because I was probably banned. If this person had really looked at my site, and I mean every page, they would have seen that I have a link to this site by clicking on the picture of my cover art:grin and on my help page, there are more cons links for going with PA and pro ones.

Monique
members.fortunecity.com/moniquebkenray (http://members.fortunecity.com/moniquebkenray)

[XThe NavigatorX]

Hey Monique. You know Larry Clopper is the co-owner of Publish America? Did you send him a nasty email? This happened a few weeks back too. Someone signed a couple guestbooks with Willem Meiners' email (the other PA owner's name) and people were sending him angry email.

This guestbook sliming is a particulary mean tactic, and all it does is make the authors circle their wagons. It really does nothing to further the cause. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't lmao when I first heard about the Willem Meiners and Larry Clopper thing. It must be frustrating to own a publishing company and to get an onslaught of angry email from your own authors-authors who don't even know who you are.

[publishorperish]

Hapi - I believe that you are correct. I've always thought that your posts were very informative, thoughtful, and helpful. We are on the same *side*.:b

[DeePower]

Gigi:

Whatever measures you take concerning PA will at the least make you feel you are proactive.

Take my opinion for whatever it is worth. This is not legal advice. I am not now nor Have I ever have been an attorney, nor do I want to be.

Your letter does not address your own experiences but repeats what you've heard about PublishAmerica.

Below is the response we received to our letter to PublishAmerica. I included the headers to their email, just scroll down.


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From: "Author Support Team" <support@publishamerica.com>
To: <behill@qwest.net>
Cc: <dee@brianhillanddeepower.com>
Subject: Fw: Brian Hill: misconceptions
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Dear Mr. Hill,

Again, the tone of your letter is way out of place. Soon we will sell our one millionth book! Neither your fax nor your registered letter reached the intended recipient. Future paper letters from you will be discarded unread.

If, after reading our bulleted refutations below, you still wish to end your contract, please renew your request, using support@publishamerica.com as your sole point of contact.

None of it what we say is nonsense, and all of it is exactly, completely accurate. What is nonsense is your tone, your drama, and your whole escapade. There is no drama, no problem, no attorneys in New York, and no issues at all. What there appears to be is a simple request for contract
termination. We will deal with that request without any special
consideration at all.

You do not need baseless jabs, drama, or a lawyer to request termination of your contract. We will consider your request at our next review meeting, to be held at our leisure, probably within the next month or so. Our decision on your contract will be made with disregard for your tone and ridiculous
and baseless accusations. Your communications with us will not be made known to the committee making the decision, and your untrue statements will not be considered.

Your statements are so naive, so false, and so totally baseless that it is difficult to even respond to them, but we'll make a brief attempt.

- Return policy: Your statement is incorrect. Our returns policy does not make it "impossible to get bookstores, particularly the large chains, to order the book." Actually, large chains order and stock our books all the time. Our policy of accepting returns is in the experimental stage.
Non-returnable books may present some challenges, but are becoming increasingly standard. Please see our message board for testimonials by hundreds of authors whose books are stocked in stores. There are hundreds and hundreds of contradictions to what you say.

- Sales director: Your statement is incorrect. The sales director you mentioned is wrong. All bookstores have access to Ingram's computer system, and all of our titles may be found there. Additionally, all bookstore managers know this.

- Amazon discounts: Your statement is incorrect. We do discount books with Amazon.

- On Amazon and availability: Your statement is incorrect. Yes, we did do that. Obviously our books are available in any quantity. To suggest otherwise is just laughable. We've sold upwards of a million books.

- Libraries: Your statement is incorrect. Yes, libraries order our books all the time. And yes, our books are listed in the LoC.

- Reputation: Your statement is incorrect. No, we have no such reputation at all. We're in the news constantly, all over the country, and it's all good.

- Direct Mailing: Your statement is incorrect. No, it is not part of our contract, and no, we do not "demand" that authors supply "100" names of friends and family. We only suggest a list of acquaintances, out of popular demand for this service, and it is entirely optional. About 90% of our authors supply this list.

- On price: Your question may be answered in this detailed discussion of this issue, and the info below:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/6842.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/6842.htm)

Contrary to what you may have been told, bookstores will generally carry a book that they think will sell, regardless of price, whether it is returnable or not, and whether it is printed on digital or offset presses. You may have found a number of books that are less expensive than yours will be, but we have found a large number of similar books that are more
expensive.

We know that our pricing is not deterring sales. We have found that pricing is simply not nearly the significant issue that some may think it is. Remember too, that we are just as eager to sell books as you are, and would do things differently if we thought it appropriate.

In the past two years we have sold more than a quarter of a million books, which stands in contrast to any allegation that our books are not competitively priced and/or supplied.

All of our books are so-called "trade paperbacks", with most of them 6 inches by 9 inches in size. Trade paperbacks are what you find in your local bookstore. There is another type of book called "mass paperback". The size of these is considerably smaller, their paper quality is much cheaper,
and they are mostly available in supermarkets and convenience stores.

They are often priced in the $6 to $9 range, and are mostly the books to which you are comparing yours. In our industry, comparing trade paperbacks with mass paperbacks is like comparing apples and oranges. The cheaper mass
paperbacks sell significantly less, statistically, than the more expensive trade paperbacks. In fact, the rate of unsold copies that go back to the publisher for destruction is three times higher than the rate for the higher priced trade paperbacks.

- Media/PR campaign: As for marketing, virtually no day goes by without PublishAmerica being in the news. Among the celebrities that have recently been congratulating
PublishAmerica an its authors are First Lady Laura Bush and Second Lady Lynne Cheney. An increasing number of our authors have recently been or will soon be on national TV, including celebrity actor Jamie Farr who will promote his new book on the Hollywood Squares show next month.

A year or so ago, Writer's Digest did a detailed study of a publishing contract that was almost identical to ours, and gave it a clean bill of health. Our contract terms are very much standard for the publishing industry. PublishAmerica is operating under the watchful eyes of highly credible industry authorities such as the National Writers Union, an
AFL/CIO affiliate who states that ours "is not at all a bad contract", and Christian author advocate Sally Stuart who recently told a writer, "you should be OK working with this company." Such verdicts, plus the sheer numbers of our results, speak for themselves.

PublishAmerica continues to grow faster than any other traditional publisher, and today we are apparently the most popular publisher among new authors. More than 50 new authors contact us every day, hoping to join you as a PublishAmerica author. That's more than 12,000 hopefuls per year. At least 80 percent of them never make it to the "published author" status, because they don't pass our acquisitions process, but that does not seem to discourage anyone from submitting their work to us in ever growing, and
frankly astonishing, numbers. We read every single submission before we accept or refuse.

Our operations are expanding. Last month we opened a third office, we are hiring more staff, and we are sending out an average 10-15 press releases about our new titles and authors every day.

Many of our titles receive more marketing attention than their counterparts published by the largest publishing houses. Over 1000 PublishAmerica authors each year ask us to accept their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th manuscripts. By any standard, this is an amazingly high number of return authors, unseen in the rest of the industry. Our marketing efforts are partially responsible
for this.

For celebrity endorsements and other media attention, see:

www.publishamerica.com/upinlights.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/upinlights.htm)

PublishAmerica sends marketing information for each title to RR. Bowker's Books In Print, Ingram, Baker & Taylor, The Brodart Company, Barnes & Noble.com, Barnes & Noble, and Amazon.com. This marketing information is distributed to each and every book retailer and library across the country,
and is typically made available to review editors of most major newspapers and magazines.

In addition, PublishAmerica creates and sends a direct mail letter with book and news release marketing information, which is sent to individuals and businesses across the US, including magazines and newspapers. These efforts have helped to generate hundreds and hundreds of feature articles
and/or reviews about our authors and their books, some of which are posted on our web site.

Also, PublishAmerica sends thousands of complete books, gratis, for review to magazines, newspapers, television, and radio programs. PublishAmerica routinely attends industry events with book copies, professional cover displays, company literature, and real time book ordering opportunities
from the web. We also conduct workshops, lectures, and discussion groups at these events.

Also, PublishAmerica is growing internationally. Several PublishAmerica titles are under contract by publishers as far away as Korea and China. These works have been translated into those languages and are for sale in those countries. Imagine having two versions of your book on your coffee
table: English and Chinese!

As part of PublishAmerica's recent alliance with the British branch of Ingram, in the United Kingdom, PublishAmerica's books are now available from the best European distribution channels; through all major European bookstores, to more than 200 million European readers in the following
countries:

England, Spain, Scotland, Ireland, Norway
Germany, Holland, Finland, Denmark, Belgium, Sweden

And finally, in the expansion department, we are happy to announce the birth of two new daughter publishing companies in Europe. PUBLISHBRITANNICA will serve new authors in Britain, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland, while PUBLISHICELANDICA will open its doors shortly for Icelandic authors, with an eye towards possible further expansion into Scandinavia. Later this year we are taking the majority of our staff, and some of our authors, to Iceland to celebrate!

We promote each book to virtually every vendor from sea to shining sea, and go to great lengths, and expense, to ensure that everyone in the industry knows about it. Consequently, your book is available through each and every bookstore in the country, and all those bookstores have all pertinent
information at their fingertips.

We are also nominating our best books for awards, including the Pulitzer prize, and we have negotiated a special promotion deal with all Barnes & Noble bookstores. Barnes & Noble could select your title to be added to their InPrint section, virtually guaranteeing it 48-hour availability in all of their stores.

We have launched a showcase website for all of our authors, called PublishedAuthors.net. It gives individual web pages to each and every author, highlighting them and their books. The content of these pages are edited by the author individually, and password protected. Not only that, but it will also gives every author their own e-mail address,
@publishedauthors.net. This innovative new service will be free, of course, as you have come to expect from PublishAmerica.

Thousands, each and every month, of PublishAmerica books are sold in bookstores across the nation. Bookstores buy books from us each and every day. Barnes and Noble has quadrupled the number of books they order from
PublishAmerica during the past year, as can be seen by all the stories and reports from authors whose books are stocked. The PublishAmerica message board is overflowing with testimonials from our authors about their books being stocked in bookstores. Hundreds of bookstores across the nation
stock our books.

PublishAmerica is stronger than ever. Some time ago, we partnered with Ingram, the world's largest book distributor, and, separately, with Barnes & Noble, the nation's prime bookstore chain. This means that your book will not only be available through all American bookstores, but through
bookstores in a dozen European countries as well.

PublishAmerica is a traditional, advance and royalty paying publisher, sharing printing facilities with Random House, Simon and Schuster, McGraw-Hill, etc.

Over 1000 PublishAmerica authors each year ask us to accept their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th manuscripts. By any standard, this is an amazingly high number of return authors, unseen in the rest of the industry.

Thank You,
Author Support Team
Support@publishamerica.com
*********************************************

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[JohannaJ7]

As part of PublishAmerica's recent alliance with the British branch of Ingram, in the United Kingdom, PublishAmerica's books are now available from the best European distribution channels; through all major European bookstores, to more than 200 million European readers in the following
That's funny, because I live about fifteen minutes away from the largest shopping centre in Scandinavia, and I have never seen a PublishAmerica (or PublishBritannica) book there. Ever. Not even in the store that special-orders obscure novellas from the US. Nor are you listed on their websites.

As for expanding into Scandinavia: no thank you, go away or I'll sick Jan Guillou on you.

[AnneMarble]

So here's the weird thing: None of those many publishing startups hired, or even attempted to hire, any industry people I know. Those companies were started by inexperienced people who vaguely thought they knew what they were doing, and when they got capitalization, they hired other inexperienced people who vaguely thought they knew what they were doing.

That's sad and scary, but at the same time, I'm not surprised. It showed. I think it showed most in the ones that had lots of money because their money went into the most ridiculous things. For example, web sites with geegaws and doo-hickeys. The smaller indie e-publishers have their problems, but most of the older indie e-publishers had better sites than these, sites that were both more author-friendly and more reader-friendly.

As an example, one of the "highly capitalized" sites I visited had a really hard to use interface, with a website that didn't work properly unless you used Full Screen mode. They also had a hinky Search interface. Oh, and to top it all off, they only offered downloads in Adobe eBook reader, a highly controversial format that I avoid like the plague because 1) I hate reading e-books in Adobe formats and 2) the DRM (digital rights management) was badly handled. By this time, most sites were offering multiple formats, including Palm-friendly formats. Also, the prices were ludicrous.

From what I saw, a lot of those companies were founded by people who thought they could make a fortune out of e-publishing. :ha They deserved what they ended up with -- and most of those sites are dead. There were a few sites created by aspiring writers. Some of those deserved to die, too, because they were there as a last resort for the desperate or misinformed, and they were run with extreme unprofessionalism. But at least a few of these had a chance of doing something right because they cared. Some of those survived or even thrived by finding a niche, and I'm all for that. (I like a lot of weird types of books.)

Some of the contracts they came up with were just plain ugly. The things weren't malign, or deliberately dishonest, but they were framed by people who didn't know what they were doing. I'm still wondering what the authors did whose publishers went out of business, leaving them with contracts that didn't have reversion clauses.

One of the worst was for a company based in Singapore, I think. I don't remember the name except that it was pretty dopey. I mentioned their contract in a print article. By the time I was asked for revisions, the site was gone, and I had to delete that sentence from the article. :)

At one of the sites I was investigating, there were some Gothic romance novels listed. These novels are posted on the writers' web site and available for free to all. She often posts link to her books on "free e-book" sites and the like. I wondered if she had signed up with this publisher, and if so, does that mean she no longer owns her own book? If not, did they copy the book because she was promoting it as a free e-book all over the Internet, and they ass/u/med it was public domain? (People who sell those e-book CDs sometimes put Baen e-books on there by mistake because they saw them for free sometimes and ignorantly think that means they have the right to sell those books.)

[DeePower]

Read the entire review at
www.savannahnow.com/stori...7601.shtml (http://www.savannahnow.com/stories/092504/2467601.shtml)


"Published by PublishAmerica, "Scuffletown" falls into the trap of many new books on the market today. The company is just shy of being a self-publisher or a print-on-demand outfit. While it allows the author to retain the copyright and all creative control, it doesn't provide structure or lend the knowledge of a seasoned book editor to its authors.

"While many writers prefer this type of set-up, it can be hard on a reader who has to wade through what should have been a rough draft."

Dee

[Sher2]

"Published by PublishAmerica, "Scuffletown" falls into the trap of many new books on the market today. The company is just shy of being a self-publisher or a print-on-demand outfit. While it allows the author to retain the copyright and all creative control, it doesn't provide structure or lend the knowledge of a seasoned book editor to its authors.

"While many writers prefer this type of set-up, it can be hard on a reader who has to wade through what should have been a rough draft."


That's really sad that sans the guidance and direction any decent publisher would have provided, what could have been an excellent piece of literature falls by the wayside. I trust the reviewer's judgment on this one, but predict we'll be hearing cries of "bad, false reviews by evil, negative, anti-PA reviewers" on the PA boards again.

[ncq13]

Did anyone happen to send an email to PA author T. Truax, author of the A Whole New Breed: The Napthali Chronicles Book One? If you did, can you please drop me a note. He recently posted on the PA boards that he received a note from someone claiming to be an editor questioning why he took his original ideas to PA. Tom and I are in a critique group together and if the email was by someone legitimate, I would like to have the ability to give him the facts! Right now he has been HB'd and thinks it's a "nay-sayer." I accept the possibility that it's someone screwing with his head but...
I had the pleasure of reviewing his book and it does have promise, so if there is a way to help him out, I would certainly like to!

[publishorperish]

That review was fair. Kudos to the columnist.

[DeePower]

It seems PA is having some heavy duty problems.
www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/6099.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6099.htm)
RE: No reply from PA

Message:
Yes, I too have had this problem with the following:

1. The refund policy for the Hemingway event for those of us who paid for the original event but can't make it on the new date;

2. Not receiveing my royalty statement yet;

3. Hearing of huge delays in getting book orders filled;

4. Receiving books I ordered that had my cover and someone else's book printed inside...

My feeling is that good business practice dictates that people get answers to their questions in a timely manner, so I'm quite discouraged by it all. I finally sent them an official letter with a deadline for responding, which is this Wednesday.

I don't know what else to do about it other than turn it over to a lawyer, since there is a lot of money involved with this, but nobody wants to do that???

This is my experience so far, which isn't particularly good.


The upside is that I'm pretty happy w/the book they produced for me and if it weren't for these other things I'd be totally happy.


Edited name
9/27/2004
14:33:28


* * * * RE: No reply from PA


Message:
Turn it into a lawyer? I wouldn't jump the gun, nothing you have said has warranted turning PA into a lawyer.

If this is THAT big an issue to you, then why don't you pick up the phone and call Publish America?

Why wait and complain when YOU can try harder to get a real live person on the phone to talk to about this?

Hope you get this settled!

Did your two author copies have someone elses work inside?

Edited name
*********************************
Edited name's response amazes me.

"THAT big an issue........." the author's books have her cover and someone else's words inside, that would be a copyright violation among other things. The author hasn't received her royalty statement. And *edited name* of course blames it on the author. The author should try harder.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[Whachawant]

Many of our titles receive more marketing attention than their counterparts published by the largest publishing houses. Over 1000 PublishAmerica authors each year ask us to accept their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th manuscripts. By any standard, this is an amazingly high number of return authors, unseen in the rest of the industry. ----"probably because they keep flogging that dead horse and hope to make their money back by putting out the same type of product. This works for General Motors ... not P.A."---

We promote each book to virtually every vendor from sea to shining sea, and go to great lengths, and expense, to ensure that everyone in the industry knows about it. Consequently, your book is available through each and every bookstore in the country......
-----"Ya see this is where P.A. might be jumping through loop holes again.... technically they MAY be promoting to every bookstore. But they probably know the bookstore won't buy anything,.. therefore keeping advertising and shipping costs down"-----" I know there is a Porsche out there with my name on it but I'm not going to mortgage my house for it"----

We are also nominating our best books for awards, including the Pulitzer prize......---"...marketing tactic....author thinks he might have a chance at the Pulitzer......"-----

That review was fair. Kudos to the columnist.
----"Agreed. Once again the 'criticisms', involved is more toward the companies lack of guidance rather than the authors ability. Although we are talking about P.A."----

Gigi.... what was the reason your attorney gave for not taking the case?...
I would suggest that you copy, paste and print DeePowers post as well. Use it for cross reference if needed. Consult Publish Americas paperwork as well(contract,etc) .... and... (this may be tricky for all of us)... consult text on copyrights and contracts. Either online or book(in a library or you can spend the 300 for your own future reference)

If you've ever taken a book title and/or author off of the P.A. site and gone to Amazon.com for the search.. it will nearly always list the sales rank. ... most I've seen are well over 2mil... (that's rank not sales)... some don't list and I'll assume they're over 3mil or haven't been sold yet... ya might find that interesting to track over time.

........ Has anybody noticed that on Amazon it states both NEW AND USED books available when typing up a P.A. author(actually probably any author).... Is there any way that Amazon gives money to P.A. for resale of used books?... Are these counted toward the authors income or not. Technically that may not be part of the contract with P.A. on the authors part.. but if P.A. is affiliated with Amazon now, these two corporations do have the ability to work something out to their benefits....don't they? Any feed back on that thought?

[CaoPaux]

Here's another reply from Dee's thread:
-----
AnthonyWDownen
9/27/2004
17:50:30

Message:
Frankly, I'm surprised as hell that this post is still on the board. I voiced a simular complaint about two contradicting emails I received from PA then was told when I questioned them on it to "not take that tone" with them.... Perhaps they are now busy getting to all those EMails and haven't seen this yet.

On the other hand, I spent the better part of an hour defending PA to a representative from WriterBeWare... It was funny to see that every complaint that was made against PA according to them were caused by the author not reading the contract or the website before signing the contract... Complaints were along the lines of "Little to No promotional help", "a $1 advance is an insult to any author", "false guarentees to be placed in book stores"... all of this was explained, atleast to me, that the success and placement of my book was completely up to me! I had no dillusions about the fact that I was about to start a new full time job when I signed my contract. I also took the initiative to negotiate my contract for what I wanted from it without simply signing it out of joy of being accepted.

I think the disgruntled past PA'ers are simply those who's dreams exceeded their ability to speak up and/or read! Ironic as that is for a writer.

Anthony W. Downen
The Forgotten Scribes~ Nov 15th Release
www.geocities.com/theforgottenscribes/Main.html
-----
Let's see...November release means February royalty statement, yes? It will be interesting to see if we hear what his negotiations got him.

[vstrauss]

I think Mr. Downing may have been talking with Ann Crispin, who hangs out in the AOL chatrooms--at any rate, he wasn't talking with me.

It always boggles me when publishing novices dismiss the advice of experienced professionals just because it doesn't suit their preconceptions. What on earth makes them think they have a better idea of how things work than someone with actual commercial publishing experience? And why are PA'ers and others so resistant to the idea that real publishers don't expect their authors to peddle their own books?

My brain hurts.

- Victoria

[DaveKuzminski]

Of course the new one is the bad advice being given about why authors have to pay for their copyrights. A writer at PA stated that the copyright would belong to PA if PA paid for it and that the author would hold the copyright if the author paid for it.

Duh?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the really good publishers pay for that because they want to know that the book is protected since it represents their investment. Also, it makes sense to have someone on staff handle all their copyright applications in the authors' names rather than trust each application to an author who lacks experience in applying for copyrights. Usually, the staff member will gain expertise that the author might never acquire on his own and can personally pass that on to other staff members. After all, the author might only write that one book. The staff of a good company will produce many.

By the way, there's an interesting post at Speculations Rumormill at URL www.speculations.com/rumormill/?z=102187 (http://www.speculations.com/rumormill/?z=102187) which is purportedly from a former employee at PA. It makes interesting reading. (Hope I got the link right for this.)

[JohannaJ7]

Turn it into a lawyer? I wouldn't jump the gun, nothing you have said has warranted turning PA into a lawyer.

If this is THAT big an issue to you, then why don't you pick up the phone and call Publish America? Yes, because oh my goodness, why get upset over a pesky little thing about losing hundreds of dollars on a bunch of book-covers that didn't even have her book in them, and a holiday that she didn't get to enjoy. And royalty statements? Pfft! A worldy thing compared to the glory and spiritual fulfillment that comes with being PUBLISHED for FREE!

I realize PA is doing a good thing to publish so many
talented authors, and I agree the final package looks
quite good. Way to go PA!
*headdesk*

Since when is it a good thing to have to share your publisher and its few editors with thousands of other authors?

Oh, and the Renee woman just called Dee a piece of sh*t. How very charming and professional.

[Sher2]

Oh, and the Renee woman just called Dee a piece of sh*t. How very charming and professional.


Maybe another couple of thousand hopefuls will hop onboard the PA peace train this week after such a charming and professional endorsement.:eek

[DaveKuzminski]

Dee, have you signed any reversion agreement yet with PA?

Renee, Dee isn't responsible for your poor sales. You need to look at those in PA's management for the real culprits.