General tips about avoiding/dealing with scammers

[absolutewrite]

SimonSays had a good idea (thanks!) and I'm going to enact it here. This is a thread where people can weigh in about how to spot warning signs and how to figure out whether a publisher/agent/etc. is legit or not, AND what you can do if you've already encountered a deadbeat.

I'd particularly like to hear from the following people on this thread: Victoria, Ann, Bobbi, Dave, James, Hapi...

I'll start with an article I wrote for Writer's Digest:

Beating the Deadbeats
By Jenna Glatzer

A watched mailbox never contains a check. That’s why I tried to avert my eyes and act real nonchalant when I happened to dash out to the mailbox three seconds after my friendly postwoman left. I was waiting for a check from a well-known women’s magazine.

The mailbox seemed to taunt me day after day, purposely delivering extra bills instead of my much-belated check. I was pretty sure I heard it snickering as I walked off, deflated.

The Very Important Editor who assigned the piece was not bothering to respond to my e-mails asking when I could expect payment. The Overworked Assistant did respond, but only to assure me that my money was coming. As much as I wanted to believe her, I was living in fear that my neighbors were going to catch me openly weeping next time the mail disappointed me.

I’ve had to hunt down my payments from publications more than a handful of times. But I’ve learned how to succeed, without ever landing in court. Here are your options:

Send an invoice. Be sure to invoice with every article you write. Ask the editor if she prefers invoices to be sent by e-mail, fax, or postal mail. Your invoice should include all of your contact information, your Social Security Number or tax identification number, the title of your article, word count and date you submitted it, assigning editor’s name, and amount owed to you.

Contact the editor. After at least a week’s grace period, call or e-mail and politely explain that payment is late, and ask if she’ll check on it for you. With any luck, the editor will talk to accounting and your check will be sent in the morning. Be aware that the editor may be completely in the dark about what goes on with writer payments, or of the financial situation at the publication. When I worked as the editor of an e-zine, I had no idea that the company was about to go bankrupt and that writers weren’t being paid. I dutifully sent invoices to accounting, and when writers complained of late payments, I was assured that they would be “taken care of.” So if contacting the editor doesn’t work...

Invoice again. After another ten days, it’s time to mail a second invoice, marked “overdue.” On the outside of your envelope, write “Attn: Accounting Department,” or “Attn: Accounts Payable.” Note on your invoice that payment is expected within 10 business days, and send it certified mail. (Keep track of all your correspondence!)

Call the accounting department. If you still don’t get paid, call and ask to speak to someone in accounting, and again, politely but firmly state that you still haven’t received payment. If this person tries to stall by saying you’ll be paid in “the next cycle,” or won’t commit to a date, let him know that if you haven’t received payment in one week, you will file a complaint. You don’t have to be specific; many people cry wolf and threaten lawsuits, but those on the receiving end know how unlikely it is that writers will actually go through with it.

Hold further articles. If you have a deadline coming up for another article for this publication, explain to the editor that you can’t submit your next piece until you’ve been paid for the last one.

Investigate. At the same time, do some digging on the publication:

·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Post your warning on writers’ message boards and e-mail lists. Ask if other writers have had trouble getting paid by this publisher. If so, did they eventually get paid? (How?) If not, what tactics have they tried and how long has payment been overdue?
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Media Post (www.mediapost.com) is full of industry gossip and insider information about changes in the publishing world. You’ll have to register (it’s free), but then you can search their “Media-Knowledge” database to find out what’s been written about the publisher lately.
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Media Life Magazine (www.medialifemagazine.com) will also give you the dirt on popular magazines. When Penthouse’s publisher declared bankruptcy, major women’s magazines “took a beating,” and Biography magazine was dramatically scaled back, Media Life splashed it on their website for all to read.
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Folio: (www.foliomag.com) is the “magazine for magazine management,” and it reports on magazines that are in trouble in the United States and abroad. If you were writing for U.K.-based Dennis Publishing’s computer magazine division, you would have learned here that they were cutting the number of freelance writers in half.
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Wooden Horse Publishing (www.woodenhorsepub.com) e-mails a weekly newsletter to subscribers announcing changes in the magazine world, including shut-downs, staff changes, and frequency changes.

Take it to the top. If you discover that a magazine may be going out of business, your best shot is to go straight to the publisher—and fast. If the company declares bankruptcy, even though you may be listed as a creditor, chances are that you’ll never be high enough on the list to get paid. You want to strike before the company gets bankruptcy protection.

Contact writers’ associations. If you’re a member of the National Writer’s Union (www.nwu.org), you can take advantage of their free grievance assistance. Send an e-mail to the grievance division at advice@nwu.org, and a volunteer officer will review your case and possibly contact the deadbeat on your behalf. More than once, I’ve gotten paid after simply sending a final demand letter saying that I would be turning the matter over to the National Writer’s Union’s grievance department. If you’re a member of other writers’ associations, ask if they can do anything to intervene.

Contact Writer’s Market staff. If this publication is listed in the Writer’s Market, alert the editors to the problem at writersmarket@fwpubs.com, and they will attempt to contact the publication to resolve the problem. (They may also omit this market from future editions to save other writers from this hassle.)

Consider legal action. It’s rarely financially worth it to sue; you’ll wind up spending money on court fees, lawyers, and travel, and even if you win, it’s unlikely that you’ll ever get paid. But it’s up to you if you feel the principle outweighs the financial gamble. Before running out to file your case, contact the Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts (arts.endow.gov/artforms/M...VLA.html). (http://arts.endow.gov/artforms/Manage/VLA.html).) This is a network of lawyers who have agreed to answer legal questions and provide pro bono assistance to low-income artists (yes, that includes writers). If you’ve dug up other writers who’ve been stiffed, you might look into a class action lawsuit.

Even if you know you won’t sue, that doesn’t mean you can’t have a nice lawyer-friend send them a letter on your behalf. Some writers keep publishing lawyers on retainer for just this kind of purpose. You could also hire a collection agency, most of which don’t charge you until they collect your debt (they’ll take a percentage of the money).

Get creative. Freelancer Don Vaughn once called directory assistance to get an editor’s home phone number after getting no responses to his invoices. At home, this editor was forthcoming about what was going on behind closed doors, cluing Don in on an important tidbit: The publisher was about to run for Congress. Well! Don headed straight for his fax machine and sent an invoice with a threat to tell the press about how this Congressional candidate was treating poor writers. “It was an extreme measure, but it worked,” he says.

My all-time favorite creative measure to get paid comes from the Net Wits, one of my writing groups. When a member had trouble getting paid by a magazine, each member was asked to send a postcard every day for a month with four words on it: “Please pay Kim Lane.”

Threaten bad publicity. If sweetly pestering doesn’t work, use mild forms of blackmail: “I’d hate to have to post this on AbsoluteWrite.com’s ‘Bewares Board,’” you might write. “73,000 writers subscribe to their newsletter, and if I don’t receive payment within a week, I’ll have to alert them.” No magazine wants bad press.

Keep the editor on your side. Remember that it’s rarely an editor’s fault when you don’t get paid. Sure, every now and then an editor just forgets to submit an invoice or to clear an article for payment, but if you’ve already given her a reminder that you’re waiting for payment, work with the assumption that she’s not to blame. When the e-zine company I worked for quit paying writers, I got a series of nasty letters from writers. It made me feel awful. As soon as I found out what was going on, I stopped making assignments (I couldn’t do it in good conscience until I knew writers were all being paid) and wrote entire issues myself under various bylines, free, just to keep the publication going in the hopes that they’d catch up and pay back the writers they’d stiffed. In the end, the company cheated me out of three months’ salary and left many writers in the lurch.

You don’t want any editor to remember you as the nasty writer. Editors hop from one publication to another with surprising frequency, so even if you’ve already decided you’ll never work for Magazine X again, don’t burn bridges by telling off your editor. She may very well wind up at Magazine Y next month, and she’ll remember. And beyond that, editors talk to other editors. Chandra Czape, deputy articles editor at Ladies’ Home Journal, says that her seven best friends all work at women’s magazines. Do they talk about writers? You bet. Think carefully about your correspondence and if you’d be proud to have your editor talk about it.

Don’t give up. Working for a deadbeat publisher opened my eyes. Those who kept after them without losing their tempers often did get paid, while those who kicked and screamed or said nothing got left in the dust. Hang in there, and don’t let anyone get away with breaking a promise to you.

SIDEBAR

Avoiding Potential Deadbeats

There are many warning signs that a publication may be in trouble, such as:

1. Other writers have complained about them. Check websites such as Absolute Write’s Bewares Board (pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11), (http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11),) Writer Beware (www.sfwa.org/beware), (http://www.sfwa.org/beware),) Preditors and Editors (www.anotherealm.com/prededitors), (http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors),) and Writers Weekly (www.writersweekly.com/war...ings.html) (http://www.writersweekly.com/warnings/warnings.html)) to find out if there have been complaints against an editor or publisher.

2. There have been major layoffs or high turnover at the company. Suddenly, top editors are gone and their former assistants are in their places.

3. The pay rates have decreased: You’ve been offered significantly less than the rates you’ve seen in writer’s guidelines or the Writer’s Market.

4. The magazine is being published less frequently—going from a monthly to a bimonthly format, for example.

5. They’ve switched from a “pay on acceptance” to a “pay on publication” policy.

6. They don’t offer you a written contract.

7. They ask for your work on spec.

8. They offer a percentage of their ad revenue, a pittance each time someone clicks on your article on a website, or any other such non-guaranteed payment.

9. It’s a start-up publication. Consider all magazines risky business until they’ve been around at least a year; most new magazines go out of business before the year is up.

-30-

[SimonSays]

Thanks Jenna -

I'll wait until the experts chime in and then see if I have anything to add that was overlooked.

Knowing what to expect from the legit agencies and publishers will make it that much easier to detect the scammers.

[DaveKuzminski]

I must admit, I liked that creative idea about other writers sending a postcard suggesting that a publisher pay for what was published.

This is not meant to create business or profits for me. In fact, the items featuring the P&E logo at CafePress are listed at their base price with no profit added for myself or P&E. That said, you might want to get some of the postcards with the P&E logo on the back for that idea. It could imply where you might complain next.

Right now, the link to the store is buried, but I'm going to place that link on a more prominent page so it can be found.

Jenna, if you don't have a free CafePress store, you might want to consider opening one.

[FloridaPets]

A huge warning bell goes off inside my head when the pub's writer's guidelines contain speling arrors. 8o

[DeePower]

A traditional publishing house works through a reputable distributor and places books in bookstores throughout the country. The books are physically in the bookstore not just available to be ordered through the bookstore.

Ask what the publisher's return policy is. If the books are nonreturnable by the bookstore, the publisher is not a traditional publisher. Bookstores, both the chains and the independent bookstores require books to be returnable to the publisher.

Go to your local Barnes and Noble and ask for a title of the publisher that you are considering. If it's not on the shelf, ask why. Go to your local independent bookstore and do the same thing.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[DeePower]

Traditional publishers obtain both a copyright and a Library of Congress catalog description for their books. The copyright remains in the author's name but is paid for by the publisher. It is important to have a Library of Congress (LOC) catalog description to sell books to libraries. Libraries buy thousands and thousands of books.

Why wouldn't a publisher obtain and LOC description? Either they are considered a POD, Publish on Demand house - The Library of Congress doesn't allow POD books to have a LOC catalog description because POD books are not meant for wide national distribution OR the publisher doesn't want to send the Library of Congress the mandatory two copies of the book.

Think about it, Publish America for example, publishes about 5000 books a year, that would be 10,000 books just for the Library of Congress. PublishAmerica (with only two exceptions I know of and I looked through the LOC database) does not request a Library of Congress description for their books, and they require the author to pay for the copyright.

Know what kind of publisher you're getting - ask questions.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[DeePower]

A legitimate literary agent or agency, doesn't charge the writer any upfront fees, not for packaging, reading the manuscript, making copies, postage, faxes, or for putting up a web page on their site to 'market' the author. No upfront fees, nada, zilch, zippo, ever.

Literary agents earn their money - and they do earn it - by selling the work to a publisher. When the author signs the contract with the publishing house, then and only then does the agent get paid.

And it's directly by the publishing house. The publisher sends the check for the entire advance to the agent. The agent subtracts their fee which is usually 15% and then cuts a check for the remaining amount and sends it to the author.

A reliable, ethical, agent is critical.

If they need an upfront fee to represent you, you don't need them.

Dee Power

[AC Crispin]

I have a pretty good list of basic rules on how to avoid scam artists on my website, under the title, "Excuse Me - How Much Did it Cost You?"

My old computer and Aol won't let me copy and paste that list into here, but if some kind soul would do it for me, I would be grateful. If not, I will go and type an abbreviated form of the list into here.

-Ann C. Crispin
www.sfwa.org/members/crispin

[CaoPaux]

Here you go, Ann.

The following is an excerpt from: sfwa.org/writing/anti-scam.htm (http://sfwa.org/writing/anti-scam.htm)

“…(F)or those who are new to writing, I offer the following guidelines. Feel free to copy them and pass them along. If you follow them, you are unlikely to be rooked:

1. If an agent charges a fee, they are highly suspect. I don't care what they call it: reading fee, processing fee, contract fee, whatever...any kind of fee is bad. If an agent charges more than $50.00, I suggest you run away. Agents who charge fees in the hundreds of dollars make their money off charging writers, not by selling their manuscripts to publishers. It's very likely that after you pay the large fee, the agent will never even submit your manuscript to a real publisher.

2. If an agent refers you to a "book doctor" be very wary. Any agent that says your ms. needs editing should provide you with a list of a number of independent editors, and then allow you to pick the one you want to use. There should be NO financial connection whatsoever between the agent and the independent editor.

3. If an agent refers you to a co-op or subsidy press, run away. No reputable agent will do that.

4. If an agent you've never heard of solicits your work, that's not a good sign. Real literary agents have to fight off clients, not go out looking for them. If an agent advertises via direct mail, the internet, or in writers' magazines, back off!

5. If an agent has an office in some out-of-the-way place like Bumpass, West Virginia, be very suspicious. Most real agents operate out of New York or California. There are exceptions, particularly on the east coast; but if Agent X from Bent Fork North Dakota writes to you and begs to see your ms., chances are excellent he's a crook. Be smart!

6. Any reputable agent should be willing to provide you with a list of sales and clients. Go to a bookstore and verify that these books and authors exist. Check references. If an agent claims to be an AAR (Association of Authors Representatives) member, go to the AAR site and look him/her up. Fake agents have lied about this before.

7. If an agent tells you you're brilliant, and your book is sure to be a bestseller, be wary. Real agents don't make statements like that -- at least not to unknown authors.

8. Never pay a vanity press or subsidy publisher to publish your book. This includes "co-op" publishers. If you must get your book published and have exhausted all professional, commercial avenues, check into self-publishing with a reputable printing company. Many poets, for example, self-publish their books. Your money will go a lot further that way. Go to your local bookstore and get a book on self-publishing. Check a printer's references before you sign any contracts. You will not receive the distribution and other services normally expected of a publisher, but you will get the books -- after they are printed they will be shipped to you. Be aware that most bookstores will not stock self-published books.

9. Having a poor agent is frequently worse than having no agent at all. If you can't find a reputable agent to submit your manuscript, go ahead and submit it yourself. Most sf and fantasy publishers will still read unagented manuscripts these days. Check out the market reports in the SFWA Bulletin or Speculations. Even the ones who say they won't may still read manuscripts from writers who impress them with a well-crafted, dynamic query letter.

So, to all you prospective writers out there...Never forget. If you're paying anyone to agent, publish, or edit your work, the money's going in the wrong direction, and, quite likely, you've fallen for a scam….”

------
There’s a lot of other useful info in this article, so check out the original. Heck, brew a pot or crack a cold one and spend a weekend reading the whole SFWA site. It’ll be a good investment of your time. :clap

[Greenwolf103]

Jenna, thanks for the article and this thread.

I've been having problems getting paid by a magazine and I just may start using some of those tips if I'm not paid by Monday (the second date they gave to me).

I've also been having problems with a paper I write for. First they changed their policy to "pays on publication" AFTER I signed the contract then they kept bumping my articles. One article I turned in for May probably won't get into print until next month. We'll see. But I'll definitely hold off on submitting anything more until they pay me. (Big surprise: they also still owe me $50 for a photo.)

I'm definitely keeping those tips in mind. The way some people treat writers is ridiculous!!

[DaveKuzminski]

If a scammer threatens to blacklist you within the publishing industry in order to keep you from talking to others about them, it's a bluff.

[James D Macdonald]

Dave's right. There isn't anyone who can blacklist you in the publishing industry.

Okay, as rules go, there's my own "Yog's Law" -- Money flows toward the writer.

And speaking of Cafe Press, get your Yog's Law Tee Shirt (http://www.cafeshops.com/viableparadi,yog_1,yog_2.2310900?zoom=yes#zoom). (Profits go to the Martha's Vineyard Science Fiction Association, a worthy group.)

[HapiSofi]

A real publishing company never implies that they're doing you a favor by publishing your book just as it is, without benefit of thorough editing, copyediting, and proofreading.

An "agent" who tells you that no reputable publishing company will look at a manuscript that hasn't been "professionally edited" is a scammer.

A publishing house that lets the authors write all their own cover copy and other promotional materials is not the real thing.

More on this anon.

[James D Macdonald]

A useful agent has sold books that you've heard of.

A useful publisher has books that you've seen with your own eyes on the shelves of random bookstores.

[lastr]

A real publisher does not ask for a list for family and friends to send solicitation letters to - only phone companies and mail order brokers do that.

A real publisher does not have hidden affiliation websites out here on the net touting their benefits exclusively.

A real publisher does not have a moderated author's forum open to the world that only allows posts to stay up that shill their work to the world.

A real publisher has editors with last names.

A real publisher does not accuse published authors of fomenting an underground conspiracy against them.

A real publisher promptly responds to review requests from respected reviewers with a copy of the work. A real publisher never asks for postage from said reviewer.

A real publisher knows the bona fides of their authors, and does not intermix biographies.

A real publisher understands the difference between poetry, social commentary, and copy writing.

A real publisher does not seed online “review” sites with its’ own tame in-house authors to generously review its’ own works.

A real publisher does not encourage, aid, and abet flame wars on its’ forums that attempt to abrogate the efforts of others to shed light on its’ business model.

A real publisher does not offer to stock books on a semi-returnable policy contingent on their achieving a certain sales quantity and esoteric value.

A real publisher doesn’t print books unless it thinks they will sell enough to make a profit, it does not just plan to recoup the initial investment off the author’s family.

A real publisher counts their stable based on quality, not quantity. A real publisher does not aspire to get into the Guinness Book of World Records unless it is for their name printed on the publishing information line, or for the most copies of an edition sold.

[magazinewriter]

Well, I avoid any mags/publishers that offer to pay me in "exposure." Don't they know people die from exposure?? :-)

Heck, Family Circle gives me lots of exposure - but that doesn't stop them from also cutting me a nice check.

And of course I also avoid 982 Press or similar outfits.

I'm also very skeptical of start-up mags. I'm amazed at the number of people who decide to start a magazine without any idea how they'll fund it or where they will get the money to pay writers. Often, these people are totally clueless about how the editorial process works, as well, so they don't know anything about rights, contracts, etc.

As far as collection methods, I've kind of developed a reputation as the "Queen of Collections" and have pretty much gotten it down to a science. We owned a construction company for 10 years, and believe me we heard all the excuses. The worst thing is, it was the big contractors (worth millions of dollars) who would be the biggest deadbeats.

My husband actually took his crew and began removing a foundation they'd installed several weeks before (and still hadn't gotten paid for). Trust me, the contractor coughed up some cash pretty quickly at that point.

My favorite technique involved taking my three kids (who were toddlers then) on a "field trip" to a deadbeat contractor's office. I'd load the kids up with soda and candy (to ensure they were plenty hyper) and inform the secretary that we weren't leaving until I had a check in my hand. General, a few minutes of 3 caffeine-fueled toddlers was about all it took.

Bobbi

[James D Macdonald]

You know those old saws (so called because they make their way into wooden heads)? Well, there's a reason your granny keeps quoting them.

"If something seems too good to be true, it probably is."

"A fool and his money are soon parted."

"The easy way is always mined."

"There's a sucker born every minute."

"If you can't tell who's the chump, it's you."

"Trust but verify."

"Follow the money."

[HapiSofi]

This is a very rough rule of thumb:

A real trade publishing house ("trade" = "publishes books that are sold in general-interest bookstores") will publish between five and fifteen new titles per employee per year. A third to a half of those employees will be doing some variety of sales & marketing/advertising & promotion/publicity work. Another substantial segment of the house's personnel will be doing production work -- making books out of manuscripts, putting covers on them, et cetera.

Three caveats on circumstances which can influence your calculations: First, watch for outsourcing. It can affect the count. But even if the house outsources some of their sales or production or editorial work, they'll still have to have experienced in-house employees covering those areas. Second, a real trade publisher can be putting a lot of effort into selling their backlist. That'll affect the count too. However, if that's what they're doing, you'll unquestionably be able to find evidence of it. Third, there are some very respectable reprint houses. Use your common sense and look at overall patterns.

If you're looking at significantly more than ten or fifteen titles a year per employee; if the house seems to consist entirely of editorial, acquisitions, and cover art production; and if you can't find evidence of a lot of professional-quality sales & marketing going on; then you may assume that being published by that house is unlikely to result in your books hitting the shelves at your local bookstore, and is even more unlikely to yield a non-trivial number of sales.

[James D Macdonald]

Right here, of course. Plus:

<a href="http://www.speculations.com/rumormill/" target="_new">Speculations.com Rumormill</a>, Caveat Scribner section.

<a href="http://webnews.sff.net/read?cmd=xover&group=sff.publishing.scams&from=-10" target="_new">Publishing Scams</a>


<a href="http://www.sfwa.org/beware/" target="_new">Writer Beware</a>

<a href="http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/" target="_new">Preditors & Editors</a>

[James D Macdonald]

Research potential agents and publishers before you send them your material.

And...

If you suspect that you're being taken, don't throw good money after bad.

[DaveKuzminski]

If you do send material to them before you check them out, make sure it was only a copy. Don't send your originals.

Then if you decide they're not for you because they're not on the up and up, at least you kept their hands out of your pockets and someone else's while they looked over your work.

[James D Macdonald]

Remember these words of wisdom from Alexander Pope:

<Blockquote>
Be not the first by whom the new are tried,
Nor yet the last to lay the old aside.
</blockquote>

-- Alexander Pope <A HREF="http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem1635.html" target="_new">(Essay on Criticism)</A>

[James D Macdonald]

Everyone -- first time authors and old pros -- go get a copy of <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809325756/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Ten Percent of Nothing</a> by Jim Fisher.

You owe it to yourself to see the story behind the Dorothy Deering Agency and Sovereign Publications.

[Ed Williams 3]

...for "Ten Percent of Nothing." What's really wild is that a writer friend of mine was among those scammed and mentioned in the book, which just points out to me that it can happen to anybody. Makes me even more glad that I participate and learn from a site like Absolute Write.

[absolutewrite]

Hey Ed, we're pretty darn glad you participate here, too. :kiss

Jim, ordering my copy...

[DaveKuzminski]

Ordinarily, P&E doesn't review books. One written by an entertainment lawyer came to my attention in a manner that caught my curiosity.

First of all, it contains a plain language explanation of provisions found in many contracts used by POD and ebook publishers that every new writer considering either of those should learn and understand. Second, it rates over 70 POD and ebook publishers and gives details of the good and bad points of their contracts and terms. All in all, it's an excellent guide for many new writers and even some not so new to writing. I recommend it.

At present, it's available at URL www.thermodynamo.com/clie...index.html (http://www.thermodynamo.com/clients/levine/index.html) for those interested in it.

[mborinstein]

This is all great info - thanx a ton everyone.

What about a word for those of us aready suckered in and stuck with a bad agent? How do we continue?

[vstrauss]

>>What about a word for those of us aready suckered in and stuck with a bad agent?<<

First, check your contract. Is there a termination clause? If so, invoke it. You can usually do this by sending a letter of cancellation to the agent. Send the letter certified so you will get a return receipt, since bad agents often don't bother responding to a cancellation request.

Pay attention to any provisions that may apply after termination--it's reasonable for an agent to go on administering any contracts they brokered during the term of the agreement, and to claim commission on a sale that results from contacts they initiated, even if the contract is signed after the agreement has been cancelled. But some of the more disreputable agents claim broader entitlements, such as the right to get commissions on any sale made within six months of the termination date, even if they had nothing whatever to do with the sale.

If your agent is one of the real baddies, there may not be a termination clause. However, your contract probably isn't valid anyway because it was offered to you under false pretenses (i.e., that the agent could sell your work). Send a cancellation letter, terminating the contract as of the date of the letter (again, send it certified), and consider yourself free and clear.

If your agent is a baddie, you don't need to worry about where your work might have been sent (or might not have been--some bad agents don't bother to send out submissions at all), since your submission was probably just ignored. But if your agent is marginal (i.e., someone with a small, indifferent track record who has enough expertise to get your work on an editor's desk, but not enough clout to get them to pay it serious attention), your ms. might have gotten enough of a reading to generate a non-form rejection letter, and therefore can't be submitted to that particular imprint again. If you seek a new agent, she'll need to know about this, because she won't want to duplicate submissions. So before cutting ties with your old agent, you need to find out where your ms. was sent.

Who's your agent? I might be able to give you more specific advice if I knew (and I'd be glad to take a look at the contract for you, and give you non-legal feedback). If you don't feel comfortable saying it here, contact me at Writer Beware: beware@sfwa.org.

- Victoria

[underthecity]

Victoria,
I just had to jump in here and publicly thank you for the wonderful information you've been giving regarding PA and bad agents and the like. You are doing a great service to authors who are going through tough times with disreputable agents, as well as alerting upcoming authors to potential scammers.

It's terrible that bad agents are scamming so many authors, but I think it's great that people like you (and James MacDonald) take time out of their busy schedules to offer advice and help us all out.

Please keep up the good work.

underthecity

[James D Macdonald]

While "dishonest" and "clueless" are different things, writers would be well advised to steer clear of both the crooks and the incompetents.

[SimonSays]

If you take the time to do your homework. i.e.

verify recent sales
check AAR membership (if they are not members, it does not mean they are scammers, but it is a signal that you need to research more thoroughly)
check P&E and Writers Beware
check Publisher's Marketplace,
ask for feedback on boards like this one,
get their client list, etc.

you should be able to avoid both the scammers and the clueless

[James D Macdonald]

Rule of thumb:

A useful agent has sold books you've heard of.

[DaveKuzminski]

While I like this forum, what truly makes it good is the content and participation from the folks who frequent it. Therefore, I have to agree with Jenna that it might be time to find a forum without all the popups. Paying to see the popups disappear is nothing less than giving in to legal extortion.

[Maryn]

I read the plea for contributions to stop the pop-ups with interest, because I have never seen a pop-up here. Not once, honest.

My kid the computer wiz tells me that pop-ups, like viruses, worms, spyware, etc., are written to work on the most popular internet browsers (the programs that allow us all to surf the internet), namely Internet Explorer and Netscape. Even with up-to-date pop-up blocking software, a few still get through on the big guys because they're all written specifically to work on them.

So why haven't I ever seen a pop-up? Although I have Internet Explorer installed (and sometimes use it), when I started coming here I used Mozilla. Recently I updated to (Mozilla's) Firefox. Pop-ups apparently don't work on these browsers, or maybe their pop-up blocking is superior--plus I actually prefer either one to Internet Explorer. (Once you try the tabs feature for a forum, bulletin board, or thumbnail pix site, you'll never go back, I promise.)

If you want to try either of these, Firefox is the more current. The download takes about 35 minutes on a dial-up rated 56K but realistically about 44K. It's FREE (whoopie!) and they do not send you any email or attempt to market anything to you. Visit mozilla.org (http://mozilla.org) or, if you have any questions, send me a message and I'll try to answer. (Be warned, I'm not a technical person at all.)

(Geez, I sound like a total shill--I swear, it's just a great product, not one that pays me to tout their wares.)

Maryn, hoping that people plagued by pop-ups at least give Firefox a try

[HConn]

I'm getting popups and I use Firefox.

[SimonSays]

If you've got a Mac w/osX - Safari's pop-up blocker does the trick.

[James D Macdonald]

This is getting seriously afield from general hints on staying away from scammers, but....

a) I'm using Firefox with "block popups" turned on, and I'm still getting popups, and

b) I'd hate to lose the archives of this forum. Lots of good stuff, going back years.

-----------------------

Obligatory anti-scam stuff:

Educate yourself about the publishing world:

On the getting of agents (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004772.html)

Slushkiller (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html#40616)

Follow the money (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002692.html)

[absolutewrite]

I think we had pop-ups for 4 days. Then some very kind people kicked in the money so I could extend our Gold membership 3 more months. I don't want to lose the archives, either, which is why I'm taking my time trying to find a board where I can possibly transfer these archives. If anyone has an idea, lemme know.

[Nateskate]

Heck, paying those few bucks was the wisest investment I've made in a long time.

This entire website is worth its weight in gold to some of us. Instead of a few wannabe writers, you've got an around the clock writers convention, with expert advice on every aspect of the business.

I didn't feel ripped off at all. And I already have pop-up blockers, so I don't get the pop-ups anyway.

[Kate Nepveu]

(reposted here by request)

... all in one handy post (http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/2005/01/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about.asp) on Neil Gaiman's blog, which reprints a lengthy e-mail (with links) from Teresa Nielsen Hayden.

[DaveKuzminski]

If only writers would learn to add one more tool to their kit for finding publishers and agents on the Internet. All they have to do is add just one word after the name of the business or its owner/operator/manager/editor such as scam, felony, prison, misdemeanor, fraud, or parole when doing an Internet search.

It's absolutely amazing what can be found because a lot of newspapers have placed their archives online. Most of it's recent, but that's the kind of information that's most useful for avoiding someone who might have been found guilty of embezzlement or some other fraud in the past decade.

[DaveKuzminski]

If you've already been victimized, there are still actions you can take that will help you regain some of your self-respect. Keep watch for any news stories about that scammer. If you should see one in a publication from outside your local area, you could approach your local paper with the idea of them running that same story while featuring a sidebar that includes quotes from you so that others in your area will know what to avoid.

You might have been scammed, but that doesn't mean you can't be a hero to everyone else.

[Richard]

Or failing that: voodoo.

[Vipersniper]

:Soapbox: One place that people read is My3Cents.com. Be careful that you don't get hit by a virus from some that try to tear down this site. But they will post complaints about scams. Like Capital One and I heard they had something about PA but take a look and post a message if you have been scammed.

[Sassenach]

Sites like My3Cents are mostly worthless, since they're filled with junk like not getting the right change at Burger King or a mean manager at the Ramada.

[DaveKuzminski]

In general, sites with watchdog activities that hold themselves to either industry or strong self-imposed standards will generally provide the best advice and guidance. In general, I've found those to be Writer Beware, Absolute Write, Speculations, and, I believe, my own site of P&E. I'm sure I'm leaving out some other sites unintentionally, but my mind is busy at the moment with about four other projects and these are the ones that I'm certain do have standards.

With that said, I received a compliment from one business asking for a change in their listing so that they wouldn't be confused with someone else. They were concerned about that because they knew that P&E would give out a negative recommendation for a single infraction of its rating criteria, which is basically true when we know of such instances. However, the individual also pointed out that P&E's harshness was good for his business because anything better than a P&E negative rating gave them credibility in the market with clients. I hadn't given that any thought before, but he's right. Strict adherence to hard criteria does make for that kind of confidence in both the ratings and the businesses being rated.

So, always look to see if the site offering advice also lists criteria and abides by those for its recommendations.

[SeanDSchaffer]

...Which I didn't follow through on the first time I tried to get published. The following are 'red flags' I've learned over the years to watch out for.

1. Publishing Companies with flashy names using words like 'U.S.A.' or 'America' in the title. -- I've noticed that most reputable publishers don't have such 'Look at us!' style names.

2. 'Loud' sites.
-- What I mean by 'Loud' is the showy atmosphere of their sites. Kind of like a car salesman I once met with a brightly-colored, mis-matched suit, shiny shoes, greased-back hair, and a mouth that didn't know when to close itself so I could decide whether I wanted to buy the car he was selling. If a site has such an atmosphere, I'd say it's most likely not legit.

In what little experience I have, reputable publishers will let the facts speak for them, not the showy atmosphere they try to push on their sites.

3. 'Feel Good' tactics with no down-to-earth figures. I've noticed at several reputable, traditional publishing sites, that they do not generally use the 'feel-good' mentality. The reputable publishers have a tendency to 'tell it like it is.' At least that's what I've noticed by the few reputable publishers I've visited so far.

4. Attempts at debunking the critics. -- I've noticed that, from the several sites I've visited of legit publishers, that not one of them is spending precious energy saying things such as, "You may have heard this about us, but if you just submit your manuscript to us, you'll see the truth."
I submitted my manuscript, and I saw the truth. But I didn't see it in time to keep from being scammed.

The four above 'red flags' are simple common sense issues that I failed to listen to one time, and that one time is when I got snagged by a scammer. The basic idea behind all of these 'red flags' could probably be boiled down into one heavily-used cliche: 'If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.'

I know that this list is most likely incomplete, and could have several flaws, but had I used this list in deciding whether or not to sign on the dotted line with a particular company which shall remain anonymous on this post, I would never have submitted a manuscript to them, much less sign on the dotted line.

Something to think about. I wish you all the best.

[DaveKuzminski]

Some pointers for PA underground dissidents who do not want to be banned by PA or have their books become unavailable because they post on other forums:



Always use an alias on other boards. If you acknowledge being a PA author, do not reveal what you write by title or content. Those can be used to identity you.



Do not mention what city, state, coast, or country you live in even if you know that another PA author lives nearby. Do not mention what paper you read unless it is nation-wide. Do not mention any bookstore you frequent unless it is a national chain. Do not mention the names of other people in your area. Those can be looked up to pinpoint your area and identify you through a process of elimination. (Believe me, I have to do this as part of my day job for legal purposes. It's not difficult to learn or do.)



If you recognize another dissident, do not mention it publicly. Doing so may give away your identities.

[Alphabeter]

To kind of reiterate what Dave said above, I'll reveal what I did.

After I discovered what PA really was (a lying, cheating, scamming, vanity publisher), I went looking for alternatives. Through a link, I found AW.

I lurked for a nearly four months before posting. I noticed what happened to those who spoke out. Once I decided to post, I decided on a few "things":

I created a user name that wasn't connected with anything I used before.
I added a name that wasn't my own, nor connected with anyone who knew 'me'. [In my case Andrea Waters used Snarzler]
I changed or altered specific information. [Again my choices included: when I signed my contract, the title and genre of my book, my background, and whom I knew]
I even changed my 'natural' writing style. While my () are a hard habit to now break, my previous posting style was short choppy thought sentences which now read as irrititating.

What is really sad is that a writer of a "real traditional" publisher wouldn't necessitate these steps in order to avoid persecution.

[jeffchele]

Being as yet unpublished i have noticed something that is typical in PA and some other vanity press and self publishing type places. In the news or author news sections of the publishing sites those places use, I have seen things like, "was contacted by a high profile woman of her community who saw one of the flyers Ms. McDowell had posted around town in an effort to promote the upcoming release of her book", or big time actor/actress contacted/phoned /talked to said author and congratulated them on their upcoming book. Unless it's Oprah or the NY times, I would be suspect about the publisher adding the congratulations of anyone to their news section as noteworthy of their publishing prowess. In the news sections of real publishers they put things that make sense, large quantities of books sold in record time, awards won by authors books, etc. I don't trust places that go down to small things such as this to sell themselves.
P.S. about popups, try the google toolbar with, glory be, popup blocker, it works here. You can even see how many of the grubby things have been blocked, to tell what sites to avoid.

[JustinoXXV]

If PA is pushing authors for expressing dissatisfaction, perhaps said writers need to hire lawyers.

You shouldn't live in fear of expressing your cpinions on the internet. Also, if you have to go out of the way to hide your true identity, then you lose all credibility because anyone can make any claim under a false identity.

Also, if PA is that bad, why not let them find out what you think of them? Wouldn't you be wanting the association to dissolve?

[IWrite]

Any Literary Agency that has client testimonials on their website or other advertising/marketing pieces, are either scams, or else novices who hung out a shingle knowing nothing about the business.

Legit agents do not have to convince anyone to sign with them - their legitimate sales, client lists and reputation in the industry speak for themselves.



Any publishing company whose advertising and marketing efforts target authors as opposed to bookbuyers are POD or Vanity publishers - NO MATTER WHAT CLAIMS THEY MAKE. They are looking to make a small profit off of each author - and their goal is to have as many authors as possible.

Traditional, legitimate, commercial publishers put their advertising budgets into selling their books - not themselves. Their goal is to sell as many copies as possible of each title they release.

[CaoPaux]

Legit agents do not have to convince anyone to sign with them - their legitimate sales, client lists and reputation in the industry speak for themselves.

Traditional, legitimate, commercial publishers put their advertising budgets into selling their books - not themselves. Their goal is to sell as many copies as possible of each title they release.To emphasize the above: If an agent or publisher advertises via Google ad, or in the back of writers' magazines, AVOID them.

[IWrite]

Thanks CAO - great addition. And a very specific example which makes it that much easier to recognize the scammers, PODS and Vanity Presses.

[the1dsquared]

I found this board after finishing the first draft of my novel last December. I have a couple of technical books under my belt, but have always wanted to write fiction.

To date: 40 queries/ 3 requests for sample chapters/ 12 rejections/ 2 no responses and 1 where I rejected the agent! I thought of sending Jenna a thank you message, but thought this post might do more good.

My dealings have been straight up so far, most rejections have been form letters, one was a short personal note, one was a scribble across the top of my query letter. I have only sent 3 email queries.

Within a few hours of my 3rd equery, I received a glowing response and a request for the full manuscript. The agent has a neutral rating on P&E and has a website. Before sending the manuscript, I decided that a little due dilligence was in order. I noticed that the agency website posted only a PO box, no street address. The website didn't list clients "to respect their privacy." The agency phone number wasn't posted on the website.

I emailed the agent asking if they would "mind sharing their list of clients and recent sales." They response? "I would mind, but I am very successful, I'm swamped with submissions."

The agent isn't listed at WritersMarket.com or Publisher'sMarketplace.com. A Google search showed a reference to a six figure sale and a couple of satisfied clients... but these are anecdotal references.

I passed and decided not to send the manuscript. I know in my gut that I did the right thing. This search for an agent is like waiting for someone to invite you to the prom. We're vulnerable. This board and the member posts helped me extricte myself from a potentially terrible relationship. Looking back, I queried a total of 3 agents that I should not have. One passed, I passed on one and if the 3rd reponds, I'll back away.

Life is good though. I'll find the right agent. It's only been 4 months and 40 queries. No cause for concern until the next 60 queries are rejected!

[DaveKuzminski]

Some Rules for Spotting a Scam Publisher




Openly advertises for writers in print publications or online or both.
Openly claims that it's not a vanity or subsidy publisher.
The publisher gives no or very low advances for books it buys.
The publisher's books are rarely in any bookstores, particularly the large chain stores that carry books from just about all reputable commercial publishers.
The publisher's books have never been seen on a bestseller list published by a reputable source such as the New York Times.
The publisher's books rarely sell more than 5,000 books to readers in individual purchases and more often fail to reach that number.
The publisher refuses to release approximate sales figures for its own bestsellers.
When confronted with very low or non-existent sales, the publisher refuses to release the book from contract.
Books it claims to have published were actually published by another publisher, now defunct, that used the same business name.
Its contracts contain provisions that prohibit complaints by its authors about its service and product.
Postings in online forums never seem to include anyone who was rejected.
Online forum criticism is frequently immediately responded to by a defender of that publisher.
Acceptances usually take place in less than a month. Even less than a week is not unusual.
Acceptance letters tend to be identical when compared with what other authors received.
Contract provisions are specific as to how termination can be invoked, but the publisher disdains using anything other than some other method of communication.
Communications from the publisher are frequently unsigned by any individual using a department address so that no one can be pinned down as responsible for any comments made to the author.
The publisher never gives a direct answer to any direct questions. Instead, the publisher points to others who are satisfied with policy, procedures, contract, or sales as proof that everything is fine.
The publisher has a no return policy on its products.
The publisher threatens to blacklist its authors within the industry.


Some Rules for Spotting a Scam Agency




Openly advertises for writers in print publications or online or both.
Claims that it has new methodology for gaining access or acceptance with book publishers.
Does not list any sales or refuses to divulge the titles of sales for confidentiality reasons.
The only sales it lists are for vanity or subsidy publishers or the sales it lists were made by the author before the author signed with the agent, often years before representation.
Sales it claims to have made cannot be found listed in any reference lists of books that were printed by the supposed publisher.
Sales it made were mostly to a publishing house wholly or partially owned by the agency.
Requires an upfront payment for administration or for a web display or for later postage and copying.
Online forum postings never include anyone who was rejected.
Online forum criticism is frequently responded to by a defender of that agency.
Representation is usually granted in less than a month or even less than a week.
Representation acceptances are usually worded identically.
The agency name has changed, but the same personnel still work at the same address and there was no conflict with another agency with the same or a similar name and no merger to warrant a change.
The agency never provides original comments from publishers that manuscripts were allegedly submitted to.
The agency never provides original invoices or receipts for postage or copying expenses it claims were made on behalf of the author.
The agency suggests that it will grant representation if the manuscript is first given professional editing. Frequently, it will suggest who should do the editing or offer to make its own in-house editing service available for a discount price.
The agency threatens to blacklist its authors within the industry.

[theguild]

IMO, some of the "real publishers" should be avoided! I wasted hard-earned money (as well as my time) sending out SASE's, queries and sample chapters to certain publishers. Rock Publishing is one; Rising Tide, Filbert, Mystic Ridge are others.
What a joke.

I found this board after finishing the first draft of my novel last December. I have a couple of technical books under my belt, but have always wanted to write fiction.

To date: 40 queries/ 3 requests for sample chapters/ 12 rejections/ 2 no responses and 1 where I rejected the agent! I thought of sending Jenna a thank you message, but thought this post might do more good.

My dealings have been straight up so far, most rejections have been form letters, one was a short personal note, one was a scribble across the top of my query letter. I have only sent 3 email queries.

Within a few hours of my 3rd equery, I received a glowing response and a request for the full manuscript. The agent has a neutral rating on P&E and has a website. Before sending the manuscript, I decided that a little due dilligence was in order. I noticed that the agency website posted only a PO box, no street address. The website didn't list clients "to respect their privacy." The agency phone number wasn't posted on the website.

I emailed the agent asking if they would "mind sharing their list of clients and recent sales." They response? "I would mind, but I am very successful, I'm swamped with submissions."

The agent isn't listed at WritersMarket.com or Publisher'sMarketplace.com. A Google search showed a reference to a six figure sale and a couple of satisfied clients... but these are anecdotal references.

I passed and decided not to send the manuscript. I know in my gut that I did the right thing. This search for an agent is like waiting for someone to invite you to the prom. We're vulnerable. This board and the member posts helped me extricte myself from a potentially terrible relationship. Looking back, I queried a total of 3 agents that I should not have. One passed, I passed on one and if the 3rd reponds, I'll back away.

Life is good though. I'll find the right agent. It's only been 4 months and 40 queries. No cause for concern until the next 60 queries are rejected!

[Selene LuPaine]

I've heard from a succesful writer that a good publishing company will not charage you. Scammers will!

By: Holly Lisle

"Nothing. Not a dime, not half the expenses, not "a modest sum," not anything. Not ever. You don't pay to have your book published. The reason you don't pay to have your book published is as follows: If you're a writer, then writing is your job. People get paid to do their jobs---nurses get paid to nurse, ditchdiggers get paid to dig ditches, and writers get paid to write."

[__VeNoM__]

I've heard from a succesful writer that a good publishing company will not charage you. Scammers will!

Well after all, that's how they make money. I don't think they actually send in to publisher's any manuscripts themselves, probably too much work with little to no reward.

[James D. Macdonald]

Important rule: Research before you query or submit.

[DaveKuzminski]

It was suggesting I post this here so it wouldn't become buried in the NEPAT. It is in response to the comment or question about why many publishers don't use an auto-reply system on their email.

As to your comments about why don't other publishers set up automatic replies, the answer is simple. They're not computer gurus. They don't have the time to become computer gurus. They have a business to operate. They can do only so many things in the time they have, so they apply that time to the tasks that actually lead to bringing in an income. Automatic replies do not bring in an income because legitimate publishers are not dependent upon authors paying them.

Conversely, publishing scams rely heavily on authors paying them because that is their income. Therefore, they cannot afford to ignore any authors and will go out of their way to make an author feel welcomed. That includes making sure they have the tools such as automatic replies on their email to let the author know that they will respond later.

Legitimate publishers do not need volumes of authors. They seek volumes of readers so they can sell volumes of books. Because there is an oversupply of authors to choose from, legitimate publishers make use of that author abundance to choose only those that they feel address the market niche the publisher is targeting and winnow that down to those that meet their own preferences in style and taste. They further refine that selection process to accept only those that are well written, though not always in the order I have just outlined. In other words, you could write very well and do so with excellent style and taste. However, if your style and taste do not match their reading preferences, it doesn't matter how well you write. You're not a match for them.

Scammers have no preferences for style and taste in who they scam unless you count green as a style and taste. This is why they accept so many so often and are eager to accommodate more.

Legitimate publishers are businesses. They have no time to waste being overly polite to the point of political correctness. Most have learned it's better to just state, "No thanks, not for us." because it's least likely to offend anyone and it's as close to the truth as they can get without being offensive. They reserve their scant free time to being polite with their authors because those are the ones responsible for providing them with a salable product. Until a writer reaches that level, there is no reason to expect anything more. It's like driving down the highway. You do not tip your hat or wave to everyone you pass or who passes you simply because you don't have the time to take away from your concentration on the road. At most, you'll give a quick wave to those who allow you to enter the highway from your drive or a parking lot, but even that is about all. You and they simply do not have the time to get out, shake hands, and talk before moving on.

Scammers, on the other hand, are overly polite. They even point to their politeness as one of the things that differentiates them from others whom they try to draw as cold-blooded and stodgy, to give only two descriptions I've seen of many. They make it appear like you're receiving something for the small fee they charge. However, when it comes to actually delivering on the goal you're actually seeking, they fail to deliver and that's when their attitude changes. At that point, they're total opposites once more from legitimate businesses which value your input because your work is producing income for everyone involved. You've already paid the scammer, so they want you gone and out of their life because they know that you're not likely to pay them anything more based on the same worthless promise. They also know that it won't be worth your while trying to take them to court because the amount you'd recover is less than it would cost to go to court.

Give it some thought. Legitimate businesses don't have time for everyone because they're interested only in those who have the kind of product they want to produce as books and mass market. Scammers have time for everyone they haven't scammed yet because those people represent another paycheck to them. Businesses are brusque because they don't have a lot of time to waste. Scammers are almost always polite because that's part of how they charm you.

You want charm? Go for it. Just don't be surprised too much when reality hits you later.

By the way, Peekay, I've waited as long as two years for replies from some publishers. You might as well get used to this fact right now. You need a lot of patience. Not a little, but a lot. Then get used to needing even more.

[HapiSofi]

Read this (http://www.caderbooks.com/pubfaq.html)and this (http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/2005/01/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about.asp).

[Jana]

We are often warned to look for a publisher's books in random bookstores, but that doesn't help if it's 3 a.m. and/or you live in Tuktoyaktuk (I don't). However, I may have stumbled on another sign that a 'publisher' is not on the up-and-up.

Look up their listed titles on Amazon.

Look at every possible picture of the cover, front and especially back. Is the publisher's name or logo on there anywhere?

I did this with the few book titles I knew were POD/vanities despite their pretty websites, and there never was a publisher's name on the outside. I followed titles linked with those books, and found a few with at least something in the 'publisher' spot on the back. But when I googled them, they came up on various 'beware' sites as older versions of vanity/sp schemes.

No publisher shown on the back cover on Amazon? Probably not a reputable house. Reputable houses LIKE for people to know they publish quality stuff.

Admittedly, it's a small sample. I don't know that many gullible people to have lots of POD titles from different outfits at my fingertips. So maybe someone here could check on more titles that they know are scam-PODs? Just to see if the theory holds? It's much easier for some of us to play around on Amazon than to get to more than one bookstore looking for examples of that press's work.

[victoriastrauss]

I have big stacks of books from Tor (US and UK), HarperCollins Eos, and Penguin Canada on the floor of my office right now. The Penguin books all have either "Penguin Books" or the little penguin logo on the back cover, but the books from Harper and Tor don't have any logo or mention of the publisher on the front or back cover.

All the books have the publishers' logos on the spines.

I have several books from sleazy PODs, including PA and American Book Publishing, and all have the publisher's name prominently on the back or spine.

- Victoria

[Jana]

Thanks, Victoria. It would have been too easy, wouldn't it?

[A. J. Luxton]

Here's one: A lot of the scams I've seen here advertise as doing something with/for writers "for the first time ever", such as giving writers access to the publishing industry.

[Tilly]

I think one sign that a company does not do well by its authors is animosity towards author advocates and warning sites. That animosity comes from a potential threat to their revenue.

[MadScientistMatt]

Another tip-off, inspired by some of the nonsense posted by defenders of various scammers: They attempt to justify their practices based on historical examples over 100 years old, or industries that are outside of the realm of book publishing. Some examples:

One PA author tried to defend POD using the example that Ben Franklin printed some of his materials one at a time. Well, he didn't have the same sort of printing speed or automation available today, did he? Using examples over a hundred years old as "how the publishing industry should work" make about as much sense as saying they ought to build cars using the same techniques that they used to make Model T's.

Another example - someone was using examples from the music industry to defend why an author needs to be constantly on the road promoting books. Well, that's because most musicians get the bulk of their money from public performances, not album sales. Authors don't make money touring the way musicians do. (And there are a lot of other rather nasty things about the music industry that no reputable book publisher would even attempt.)

[victoriastrauss]

Matt, the kinds of justifications you cite are just as often the result of ignorance as of a deliberate attempt to mislead. For authors, the bottom line is the same, of course--you don't want an ignorant publisher or agent any more than you want a dishonest one. But stupid and self-serving comparisons don't necessarily point to scammery.

- Victoria

[Gillhoughly]

There's much on this thread on what to avoid in a scam agency, so here's a post on what to look for!

1) Lists of books they have sold

2) Lists of authors you have heard of

3) Links to the authors' websites (where you may be able to write and ask THEM how they like their agent)

4) Links to venues like Amazon where you can buy the books (where you may see who is publishing the book, if this wasn't mentioned on the site)

5) Lists of books that are forthcoming

6) Clearly set out submission guidelines

Legit agencies won't be shy about blowing their horn on success stories! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotepartyguy.gif

[Aconite]

4) Links to venues like Amazon where you can buy the books (where you may see who is publishing the book, if this wasn't mentioned on the site)This isn't one I'd place much weight on. Good agents don't bother telling you where you can buy books they've agented. That's the publisher's job. A good agent will be selling books to publishers who get the books on bookstore shelves.

[Gillhoughly]

This isn't one I'd place much weight on. Good agents don't bother telling you where you can buy books they've agented.

Point taken! Some do, some don't, and some will at least mention what publisher they sold to.

The authors should have links to Amazon or the B&N site on their own websites, but it's easy enough for one to google a title and check it out.

Being on Amazon is no guarantee that it's a good book sold by a legit agency. I get mighty suspicious about publishers I never heard of with dozens of 5-star reviews that could well be from the writer's "helpful" friends. (Or even the writer!)

And titles sold exclusively from an agency's P.O. Box addy??? (Like BKNelson) Run away! Run away! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif

[SHunter-Wilson]

I heard that a real agent should should not charge you any fees accept what they may off the sales of you book? is that true?

Shar

[JerseyGirl1962]

I heard that a real agent should should not charge you any fees accept what they may off the sales of you book? is that true?


Shar,

Yes, that's correct. Reason? Why would they have to sell your book and make money (a commission) off of that when they've already got your dough?

Money flows to the writer.

~Nancy

[Aconite]

I heard that a real agent should should not charge you any fees accept what they may off the sales of you book? is that true?Yes, it's true, but this is not the right thread for discussing that. Check out the thread listed on the Bewares main screen on avoiding scammers, and look in the very first post in this thread for links to articles on how to find reputable, effective agents. Follow and read those links; they'll get you up to speed.

[SHunter-Wilson]

Thanks a bunch. Was just curiouse, didn't know where to ask that question. I didn't want it lead to a discussion:) I'm trying to find a good agent. I will check out what you said:). Thanks a bunch!

Shar

[jimmyc]

Research before you submit anything! There are numerous websites, books and magazine subscriptions on the subject.

[DaveKuzminski]

For those who want to get in on the fun, Writers Net (http://www.writers.net/forum/read/10/176926/176926Vf) is asking writers to send in a query to WL Literary Agency (details at the link) in an attempt to see if anyone can obtain a rejection from them. Your query should be as awful as possible and can even describe well known published books just to see if they even reject works that are clearly plagiarized.

[Soccer Mom]

How tempting, Dave. And for a little inspiration is our very own BAD QUERY THREAD (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38545)where we challenged one another to write the worst possible queries. There's some bad stuff in there.

[JGoldberg]

Check out my footer....

[Rodlen]

I can recognize one thing about many of these literary scams: they depend on your pride.

[justintoxicated]

If an agent sounds like a coke head on the phone and tells you you're a genius, before stating "marketability" doesn't matter in a screenplay, without having read it. Oh and then he asks for money and doesn't appear to be listed on the ATA or NATR websites.

[DaveKuzminski]

"On Thursday, March 20th, 2008 Irene Watson and Victor R. Volkman spoke with Dave Kuzminski, creator and manager of Predators [sic] and Editors, the infamous website where scammers and companies with a record of complaints are recorded. Dave helped us distinguish the dark side of book promotion, agents, and publishing by covering such thorny topics as: the difference between a bad business deal and a scam, the evolution of a scam and what types of people are running them, how to avoid a scam, and what to do if you think you’ve been had."

"Listen to the f-ree podcast at http://authorsaccess.com/archives/100 (http://authorsaccess.com/archives/100)
RSS podcast feed: http://authorsaccess.com/feed (http://authorsaccess.com/feed)"

Gosh, infamous? Well, I guess it is from the viewpoint of a scammer. ;)

[HarrisLiteraryscamsu]

Just as an addendum:
Not only do not send up-front money to an agent, but be adamantly skeptical of anything he wants to sell you, be it a guide, memoir, editing service, whatever. Do your own editing, as you’ve done your own writing. If the agent claims your ms. just needs a tweaking to be sold, and that he’s got a bargain, or a good friend in the business, flesh him out, but don’t be hooked. Book doctors, skimscam reviewers, scalphunters…watch out for some creepy shadow named Victor West. If everybody steadfastly refuses to pay fees, all these frauds will go out of business. This forum is a great place to spread the news. Tell a friend.

[James D. Macdonald]

Understanding scam victims: seven principles for systems security (http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-754.html)

A paper from Cambridge University on the psychology of scams. Several principles that are useful for understanding how literary scams work are explained.

[kimi_silva]

I LOVE THIS SITE!!! Thanks for all the priceless information