PDA

View Full Version : India Has Killed 10 Million Girls in 20 Years



William Haskins
12-17-2006, 07:41 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061214/india_nm/india280322

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, a government minister said on Thursday, describing it as a "national crisis".

(snip)

In some states, the minister said, newborn girls have been killed by pouring sand or tobacco juice into their nostrils.

"The minute the child is born and she opens her mouth to cry, they put sand into her mouth and her nostrils so she chokes and dies," Chowdhury said, referring to cases in the western desert state of Rajasthan.

"They bury infants into pots alive and bury the pots. They put tobacco into her mouth. They hang them upside down like a bunch of flowers to dry," she said.

Bravo
12-17-2006, 08:00 AM
:(

William Haskins
12-17-2006, 08:02 AM
happy holidays.

SpookyWriter
12-17-2006, 08:10 AM
I'm going with BoP on this one. But don't exclude China...

Life sucks, again I have to remind people that our world isn't the idealistic place people make it out to be...and so, what's the resolution?

SC Harrison
12-17-2006, 08:11 AM
:(

:(

William Haskins
12-17-2006, 08:14 AM
actually, it was BoP's post about china that jogged my memory of having read this story.

fact is, between china and india, at some point, we're going to have the two most populous nations (and both nuclear powers) with a generation of aggressive, frustrated young men with not enough women to go around.

the mass psychology of such a situation is troubling, for sure.

Perks
12-17-2006, 09:06 AM
You know, I see these things. I know it happens. Many things in the news leave me feeling helpless, even when I have a vote in the process. But what in the hell can we (meaning anyone who reads these facts) do? It's the most gutting, horrifying thing and the best I can do is cluck my tongue and say how awful it is.

Misery.

William Haskins
12-17-2006, 09:08 AM
The practice of killing the girl child is more prevalent among the educated, including in upmarket districts of New Delhi, making it more challenging for the government, the minister said.

"How do we tell educated people that you must not do it? And these are people who would visit all the female deities and pray for strength but don't hesitate to kill a girl child," she said.
.

SpookyWriter
12-17-2006, 09:12 AM
actually, it was BoP's post about china that jogged my memory of having read this story.

fact is, between china and India, at some point, we're going to have the two most populous nations (and both nuclear powers) with a generation of aggressive, frustrated young men with not enough women to go around.

the mass psychology of such a situation is troubling, for sure.I agree. I've indirectly studied this issue for quite some time because of outsourcing and such. Whereas, Eastern Europe has the opposite problem, the East Indies and Pacific East are about to boil over with more males than available females. I was in correspondence with a few women in China about this a few years ago. I found it odd that a woman from China or India would rather migrate to the west than pick between the most eligible males in their country.

Believe me, there is more to this than meets the eye.

dclary
12-17-2006, 09:14 AM
This would explain why there are so many punjabs and sagars answering the phone at Dell, and not so many anjali and miris.

billythrilly7th
12-17-2006, 09:15 AM
Girls are seen as liabilities by many Indians, especially because of the banned but rampant practice of dowry, where the bride's parents pay cash and goods to the groom's family.

It's truly mind boggling how much of the world is living in the god damn middle ages.

But, let's stay out of it.

It's none of our business that 10 million baby girls have been killed.

Lord almighty.

It's their culture though.

The dowry system that leads to gender genocide.

Who are we to tell them that their stupid f'ing handed down for centuries practices should be abolished.

AHHHHHH!!!!

Whole night ruined!!!!

William Haskins
12-17-2006, 09:17 AM
The dowry system that leads to gender genocide.

yessir.


Whole night ruined!!!!

happy to be of service.

SpookyWriter
12-17-2006, 09:18 AM
Hey Billy, don't fret because when it becomes a national security issue I'm sure our government will do the right thing. Yes?

Bravo
12-17-2006, 09:19 AM
It's truly mind boggling how much of the world is living in the god damn middle ages.

But, let's stay out of it.

It's none of our business that 10 million baby girls have been killed.

Lord almighty.

It's their culture though.

The dowry system that leads to gender genocide.

Who are we to tell them that their stupid f'ing handed down for centuries practices should be abolished.

AHHHHHH!!!!


Because fixing other nations doesn't work?

:Shrug:




Whole night ruined!!!!

Mine too.

:(

SC Harrison
12-17-2006, 09:23 AM
You know, I see these things. I know it happens. Many things in the news leave me feeling helpless, even when I have a vote in the process. But what in the hell can we (meaning anyone who reads these facts) do? It's the most gutting, horrifying thing and the best I can do is cluck my tongue and say how awful it is.

Misery.

A major contributing factor to this is the Dowry system, which can bankrupt a family and still end with the married daughter being mutilated or killed, so her husband can be free to marry someone else's daughter and take her family's possessions.

It was outlawed back in the Sixties, but the custom (or abuse of) just won't die. Ergo, girl babies are considered an extreme liability, even for a relatively wealthy family.

I know. It's crazy.

billythrilly7th
12-17-2006, 09:25 AM
Because fixing other nations doesn't work?

:Shrug:





Mine too.

:(

A. :Shrug: There must be something that can be done. Sanctions. George Clooney. Something.

B. :( This is the first I've heard of this, but it has leaped to very near the top, if not the top, of my "disgusted with humanity, please god make me Thrilly Almighty for 48 hours" list.

SC Harrison
12-17-2006, 09:26 AM
Who are we to tell them that their stupid f'ing handed down for centuries practices should be abolished.



I believe the extreme abuse of the system began shortly after the onset of British colonialism...

billythrilly7th
12-17-2006, 09:28 AM
I believe the extreme abuse of the system began shortly after the onset of British colonialism...

Friggin English Dave.

I knew somehow this mess was his fault.

William Haskins
12-17-2006, 09:35 AM
Prabhuji mein tori binti karoon
Paiyan Paroon bar bar
Agle Janam Mohe Bitiya Na Dije
Narak Dije Chahe Dar...


Oh, God, I beg of you,
I touch your feet time and again,
Next birth don't give me a daughter,
Give me Hell instead...

-- Folk Song From Uttar Pradesh

billythrilly7th
12-17-2006, 09:39 AM
Dear God or Random Luck or something I can't understand,

Once again, thank you, thank you, thank you for letting me be born in the United States of America.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

Your boy,
Billy

William Haskins
12-17-2006, 09:43 AM
a little light reading for bedtime.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/grhf/SAsia/forums/foeticide/articles/foeticide.html

dclary
12-17-2006, 09:45 AM
Dear God or Random Luck or something I can't understand,

Once again, thank you, thank you, thank you for letting me be born in the United States of America.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

Your boy,
Billy

Amen.

billythrilly7th
12-17-2006, 09:46 AM
They won't kill cows, but baby girls, go for it.

It's a weird line some people draw.

I'm done with this thread for tonight.

Well done, Haskins.

You couldn't save this for Monday,....

(First time ever....)

Hump?

billythrilly7th
12-17-2006, 09:50 AM
I actually take that back.

The sooner this is brought to my attention the better.

Thank you, WH.

Goodnight, AW.

dclary
12-17-2006, 09:50 AM
Don't mistake your rage, Billy. Let's aim the hump-calling where it belongs.

NATION OF INDIA: HUMPS.

dclary
12-17-2006, 09:50 AM
Oh good, you caught yourself. Excellent. Keep up the good work.

Bravo
12-17-2006, 09:58 AM
NATION OF INDIA: HUMPS.


We should've added to your rules:

Must not resort to the 2nd grade simplification and generalization of every topic.

aruna
12-17-2006, 10:15 AM
I knew a poor family in India that had four daughters and only two sons. It was a disaster for them. Not that they didn't love their daughters, but they could literally ruin a family. And to make things worse, the eldest daughter was plain so it was very hard to get a good husband for her. The fathers of eligible sons wanted things like wrist watches and motorbikes. They finally got a groom who accepted a Western shirt as a dowry. But even buying that shirt was hard for the family.
In my first novel this problem is touched.

dclary
12-17-2006, 10:24 AM
We should've added to your rules:

Must not resort to the 2nd grade simplification and generalization of every topic.

I'm trying to understand what you're saying here, Bravo -- above and beyond the call to have me not boil tons of information into highly condensed and powerfully accurate bulletpoints.

Are you saying the nation of India ISN'T a hump for letting its people do this?

Are you saying that we don't have the right to declare humpiness for what it is when it's self-evident?

What is your anti-american take on this one?

tourdeforce
12-17-2006, 10:35 AM
fact is, between china and india, at some point, we're going to have the two most populous nations (and both nuclear powers) with a generation of aggressive, frustrated young men with not enough women to go around.

the mass psychology of such a situation is troubling, for sure.



This powder keg is bigger than you know-

http://abc.net.au/ra/asiapac/programs/s1809201.htm

Mom'sWrite
12-17-2006, 10:55 AM
I know two girls who will be hugged a little bit longer tonight for all their sisters that won't be.

eldragon
12-17-2006, 07:29 PM
Areas of the world that kill babies based on gender, should not be seen as civilized.

It's barbaric, afterall.

And here in this country, some people are appalled by abortions. Can you imagine pouring sand into a newborns nostrils?

And how many people in America would adopt a baby girl from India? Heck, I'd take 2 or 3 myself, and we're poor!

eldragon
12-17-2006, 07:41 PM
In America, it's called murder, and anyone murdering an infant is imprisoned or even put to death for the crime.


10 million babies in 20 years? Regardless of fINANCIAL hardship - there is no excuse for murder.

Note to people in India: STOP having SEX!

What kind of karma are you creating for yourself by murdering your infants?

aadams73
12-17-2006, 07:43 PM
This makes me glad that I'm trying to boycott India wherever possible. I try not to do business with any company that uses Indian customer service. And I'm quite happy to write to these companies and tell them why I won't use their services or products.

eldragon
12-17-2006, 07:44 PM
This thread just ruined my day. I can't believe what kind of world we live in.

xhouseboy
12-17-2006, 07:52 PM
There was a report yesterday concerning a practise in the Ukraine of harvesting newly-born babies for stem-cell treatments. Healthy babies were allegedly taken from their mothers straight after birth, and 24 hours later the mother was informed that the baby had died. It was claimed that the stem cells were being sold to a clinic in Barbados that specialised in anti-ageing treatments for wealthy clients.

The BBC also cover this in a documentary to be shown tonight.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6171083.stm

aruna
12-17-2006, 08:03 PM
I don't want to sound like I'm downplaying the issue but please, please don;t panic or make this a thing that "is done in India" and "we need to boycott India"!
I can assure you that the vast majority of Indians would be as appalled as we are here, and it's not as if it's some sort of epidemic that "Indians do".
In the very poor area I used to live girls are loved as much as boys; just that they create a financial problem. They are certainly not killed or aborted.
The charity I used to work for tried to solve the dowry problem this way: at the birth of a girl, they plant a teak sapling. by the time she is of marriageable age, it;s a tree worth a lot of money. That;s her dowry.
Of course, the real problem is abolishing the system altogether but for a society that is so embedded in tradition it's really, really hard.

eldragon
12-17-2006, 08:09 PM
I have a solution for the mass murder of infants in India : starting immediately - all men over the age of 21 are castrasted.


We spay and neuter cats and dogs, right? If we don't - they populate the earth with offspring. Shouldn't populations out of control - the ones that MURDER infants by the thousands, be dealt with in the same way?

10 million infants murdered is nothing to ignore. As far as I can see it, the only solution to such barbaric practice is forced vasectomies for everyone.


(It's cheaper to do the men - but the women deserve it, too.)

eldragon
12-17-2006, 08:11 PM
I don't want to sound like I'm downplaying the issue but please, please don;t panic or make this a thing that "is done in India" and "we need to boycott India"!
I can assure you that the vast majority of Indians would be as appalled as we are here, and it's not as if it's some sort of epidemic that "Indians do".
In the very poor area I used to live girls are loved as much as boys; just that they create a financial problem. They are certainly not killed or aborted.
The charity I used to work for tried to solve the dowry problem this way: at the birth of a girl, they plant a teak sapling. by the time she is of marriageable age, it;s a tree worth a lot of money. That;s her dowry.
Of course, the real problem is abolishing the system altogether but for a society that is so embedded in tradition it's really, really hard.

So then, 10 million would be incorrect? Because that is a huge figure, making it something that would have to be common practice.

TsukiRyoko
12-17-2006, 08:18 PM
:rant: What the hell is wrong with the world today? Some of the shit people insist on doing, just.... !!!!!!!

aruna
12-17-2006, 08:21 PM
So then, 10 million would be incorrect? Because that is a huge figure, making it something that would have to be common practice.

Remember, India has a population of over a billion. And this is over 20 years. And confined to certain areas. India's states are as different from each other as different countries - with separate languages even. Which doesn't make the murder of even one newborn less barbaric; I just don't like it being dealt with as if this was everyday Indian practice. It's an Indian Minister who revealed that statistic; they will deal with it themselves, hopefully. They don't need Western help.

Perks
12-17-2006, 08:25 PM
They don't need Western help.Revealing this concern to the world at large was showing that they intend to do something about it.

I agree, Aruna.

Jcomp
12-17-2006, 08:28 PM
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.' I agree with the second part."

Chalk another one up for the inherent evil of being human.

eldragon
12-17-2006, 08:37 PM
Even animals protect their young.

SC Harrison
12-17-2006, 09:07 PM
Revealing this concern to the world at large was showing that they intend to do something about it.

I agree, Aruna.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but, it ain't happening.

They can pass as many laws as they want, but if people want to ignore the law and the local authorities don't want to enforce the law, it makes no difference. For instance, caste discrimination is specifically forbidden in the Constitution, but the Dalits are still treated the same as they were before. Dowry laws were passed over forty years ago, but the extortion is still going on and wives are still being burned in the streets.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/women/interact/discrimination_india.html

AI is concerned that although the Indian government has made statements and administrative changes that should lead to more respect for women's human rights, it has failed to take sufficient steps - including training, action against officials who have acted in a discriminatory manner - to ensure that the criminal justice system and government administration do not perpetuate discriminatory practices prevalent in society.

While long-term prevention of violence against women must involve economic and social empowerment of women, only with a fully supportive and accountable administrative and criminal justice system will women become truly empowered. This is the only way that perpetrators of violence and the communities and public officials who protect them will realize that their acts will no longer be tolerated. The shielding of powerful individuals who perpetrate crimes against women must be condemned and stopped.


They are one of (if not the) biggest trading partners we have, and I'll bet our intrepid President has not mentioned a damn thing about human rights issues inside India during his visits:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060302-6.html

We will continue to work to promote reform, respond to the concerns of developing countries, and create opportunities for growth for all. We are building the trading system of the future, where progressive liberalization and reform result in improvement in standards of living for all, in particular for the millions of poor across the developing world.


I'm not sure I want to see India's "standards" spread throughout the developing world, and I damn sure don't like the idea of a culture that places such small value on (some) human life having the ability to deploy nuclear weapons.

Go ahead. I said it so I expect to be chastised for it, and that's okay.

Perks
12-17-2006, 09:19 PM
No, not at all. I agree with you as well. It's horrible in the extreme. I just don't believe that it is something the west can fix for them.

By pulling it out in the open, they are throwing down a gauntlet to their own people and government factions that would cover it up or downplay it. They are fighting themselves.

Perks
12-17-2006, 09:25 PM
They are one of (if not the) biggest trading partners we have, and I'll bet our intrepid President has not mentioned a damn thing about human rights issues inside India during his visits:

And you have to wonder, if he hasn't, does it speak to what many say regarding our not getting involved when there's nothing we want?

Global outcry against these things is a duty, but I don't see a way that any "superpower" can march in and strongarm a culture to change.

Perks
12-17-2006, 09:33 PM
I guess this just brings me full circle to the feeling of helplessness I mentioned in my first post here. We can wail and gnash our teeth, cry on our keyboards and tell our friends. That's about it.

I mean really, are we going to have a platoon of GI Janes go black-ops as midwives in India?

They have to make the change themselves.

SC Harrison
12-17-2006, 09:53 PM
And you have to wonder, if he hasn't, does it speak to what many say regarding our not getting involved when there's nothing we want?

Global outcry against these things is a duty, but I don't see a way that any "superpower" can march in and strongarm a culture to change.

As to the first statement, yes, it does.

As to the second, I don't believe in muscling other cultures, but I also don't believe in awarding them nuclear assistance and trade status while turning a blind eye to the things we condemn other countries for.

Perks
12-17-2006, 09:56 PM
As to the second, I don't believe in muscling other cultures, but I also don't believe in awarding them nuclear assistance and trade status while turning a blind eye to the things we condemn other countries for.That is completely reasonable.

SC Harrison
12-17-2006, 11:17 PM
That is completely reasonable.

Jesus, Perks! You need to issue some kind of warning before changing your avatar like that. It reminds me of my ex when one of our arguments about nothing escalated to Defcon 3.

Perks
12-17-2006, 11:20 PM
I didn't do it to scare you, Steve. I did it to scare Bravo in a different thread. You're collateral damage.

SC Harrison
12-17-2006, 11:26 PM
I didn't do it to scare you, Steve. I did it to scare Bravo in a different thread. You're collateral damage.

Thanks for the reassurance, but I still had to change my underwear.

Wow. That's pretty disgusting, but it's too damn funny to remove. :)

eldragon
12-18-2006, 12:33 AM
Pam, I understand you're angry, but I think you're allowing your outrage to speak contemptuously about an entire culture.

So, what should they do to get a grip on the population explosion and keep people from murdering their infant girls?


Nobody will admit to the crimes, so obviously asking them isn't an option.

20 years isn't a long time. 20 years ago - it was 1986. We're not talking about the middle ages.

Killing infants based on their gender is sick. Why allow people to have children, if they only keep the boys and kill the girls?

So, it's worse to sterilize people then it is to murder babies? Isn't that what they want, to not have to worry about having children? I say force all the men to have vasectomies and stop the infant killings.

Either that or employ about a million nurses to do bi-annual checks on every female over the age of 15 - to see if she's pregnant. And if she is pregnant - there had better be a record of her infant on the next check.

Drastic times call for drastic measures.

You're right, I'm angry.

billythrilly7th
12-18-2006, 12:38 AM
Pam, I understand you're angry, but I think you're allowing your outrage to speak contemptuously about an entire culture.

Yeah.

Castration and sterilization are a sure fire way to the extinction of the Indian people as a whole.

But my PHD in reproductive science is not from a reputable school so take my theory with a grain of salt.

And her extreme direct measures against the only the men speaks volumes IMO.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 01:01 AM
And her extreme direct measures against the only the men speaks volumes IMO.

Uh, and the murder of only girls doesn't speak volumes???


And I said, men over a certain age. Or, women, except it's actual surgery to tie a woman's tubes, and an office visit for man.

billythrilly7th
12-18-2006, 01:06 AM
Uh, and the murder of only girls doesn't speak volumes???


And I said, men over a certain age. Or, women, except it's actual surgery to tie a woman's tubes, and an office visit for man.

How do suggest the Indian people avoid extinction?

I don't get it.

They can have babies before they're 21 and then the men and women have to get sterilized?

Come on. We need a realistic solution for this problem.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 01:11 AM
[QUOTE][Come on. We need a realistic solution for this problem./QUOTE]

Ok, got one?

Condoms, perhaps?

LloydBrown
12-18-2006, 01:12 AM
Come on. We need a realistic solution for this problem.

Invasion is the only answer.

billythrilly7th
12-18-2006, 01:16 AM
George Clooney, Education, Condoms, Boycotts, Extreme Sanctions.

This should be brought up on a world wide scale and the entire civilized world should condemn it and make sure the Indian Govt is taking all actions necessary to stop this practice.

And the dowry system should be laughed and ridiculed into oblivion.

Maybe if Kofi Annan in his little goodbye speeches talked about something like this, we could take him a little more seriously.

Sadly, the Indians have nukes, so military intervention is out of the question at this juncture. That's why our options are truly limited.

Maybe when we get our missile defense system up and working, I'll revisit that idea.

Thank you.

Perks
12-18-2006, 01:18 AM
Sadly, the Indians have nukes, so military intervention is out of the question at this juncture. That's why our options are truly limited.

Sometimes I can't tell when you're joking. Is this really the reason we're not storming New Dehli to take over?

SpookyWriter
12-18-2006, 01:26 AM
Sadly, the Indians have nukes, so military intervention is out of the question at this juncture. That's why our options are truly limited.Unfortunately sir, the real reason we don't take a more forceful stand with this issue is because we outsourced our ability to complain and now the White House needs to speak to an Indian whenever their AOL connection to NORAD fails. Sad, but true. Our deterrence for this type of behavior is currently being routed through Bombay. :Shrug:

billythrilly7th
12-18-2006, 01:29 AM
Sometimes I can't tell when you're joking. Is this really the reason we're not storming New Dehli to take over?

10 million baby girls is gendercide.

And as I voted in another thread, intervention would be justified IMO.

But the reason we're not intervening is because I don't think many people know about this.

This is the first I've heard about it.

But, like I said, their nukes takes military intervention off the table.

But we should step on their necks economically if you ask me.

Sheryl Nantus
12-18-2006, 01:38 AM
hasn't this sort of thing been going on in China for decades as well?

eldragon
12-18-2006, 01:38 AM
A simple first step would be for India to make it a crime to kill your newborn.


Seems like a few swift examples of what happens when you do, might halt the ugly practice of shoving sand of your babies nostrils pronto.

SpookyWriter
12-18-2006, 01:42 AM
hasn't this sort of thing been going on in China for decades as well?Yes it has. China has a national policy on one child per couple. So it's not uncommon for women to abort a female fetus when they discover the child won't be male. I also believe some Native American Indians (centuries ago) would take a deformed child and bash their head on stones rather than try to raise them. (Have to look this up again to be sure).

India isn't the first or only culture (society) that has propagated a male dominated society at the expense of females.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 01:42 AM
hasn't this sort of thing been going on in China for decades as well?

I think they are more into discarding their baby girls on partiucular busy roads, in the hopes that someone might find the child before she expires from exposure.

(We know people who adopted their daughter that way. She was left on the side of the road as an infant, picked up and put into an orphanage.

The man is an American who works in Hong Kong as a lawyer, because he can make major bucks there. Also, he's getting up in age and he says people in China respect that, while here in America, everyone is asking him when he is going to retire.)

Bartholomew
12-18-2006, 01:48 AM
Disgusting.

Perks
12-18-2006, 01:54 AM
A simple first step would be for India to make it a crime to kill your newborn.

It's my understanding that is already the case.


***

Billy, you don't make any sense. Even if we weren't staring down a nuclear barrel, do you really think we'd go in, conquer and presto! we'd have whipped up a big, honkin' dish of Curried America?

Answer this one, please.
I mean really, are we going to have a platoon of GI Janes go black-ops as midwives in India?
There simply is no practical application of military force in this case, even if there was no risk of nuclear backlash.

This is a cultural, internal battle. It's important for the rest of the world to emphatically state that this is abhorrent. It's perfectly moral to withdraw our support, if the government isn't acknowledging and working against this practice diligently. Beyond that, we have to help them in grassroots campaigns to change this mindset as quickly as possible.

Babies are murdered in this country too. Prom queens stuff toilet paper in newborn mouths and try to flush them down the gymnasium toilets. They get wrapped in McDonald's bags and tossed into dumpsters. They get shaken and broken by neanderthal abusers and drowned and microwaved by women in the throes of postpartum psychosis.

The reason these babies are being killed in India is a problem of ideals. That can't be changed by The United States Marine Corps, no matter how much hoo-rah you throw at it.

SpookyWriter
12-18-2006, 02:12 AM
That can't be changed by The United States Marine Corps, no matter how much hoo-rah you throw at it.The myth that marines are baby killers is still so haunting for vietnam veterans. I remember going through boot camp in the mid-seventies and having to listen and learn how not to kill children during war. I'm reminded now of the child running in flames after a bombing in a village in Vietnam. This image and the Tet offensive image (Time Magazine) will probably haunt many people for years to come.

Perks
12-18-2006, 02:15 AM
Gak, Spooky! I certainly was not invoking Marines as baby-killers. Or disparaging them in any way.

SpookyWriter
12-18-2006, 02:30 AM
Gak, Spooky! I certainly was not invoking Marines as baby-killers. Or disparaging them in any way.Perks, I know. Yet the thread is about baby killers and then marines pops up. So, as a former marine during those years where baby killer was the national slogan for the movement, I quickly free-associated the two ideals. I was briefly returned to my days in the corps, and the flashback was enough to send chills through me. Believe it or not, but that one simile is a big issue for Vietnam vets to this day.

John Rambo used this in his closing statement for his remorse and quilt for surviving.

tourdeforce
12-18-2006, 03:29 AM
With the ever increasing shortfall of eligible brides in this region, savvy investors would be wise to start including white slavery rings in their portfolios.

SpookyWriter
12-18-2006, 03:37 AM
With the ever increasing shortfall of eligible brides in this region, savvy investors would be wise to start including white slavery rings in their portfolios.Sorry, sir, but you're about three or four hundred years behind the times. Read up on the Barbary Pirates, or the history of white slavery in Europe. Turkey was a host to this practice since (I believe) the middle-ages. One of the primary reasons that many EU countries are reluctant to admit Turkey into the EU isn't necessarily just because of their current regime or political policy. No, Europe has a long memory of Turks invading their homelands and trading on humans for personal gain and entertainment.

The traffic in Eastern European women is well documented. Give it a good read someday, and you'll be horrified that this practice continues to this day.

Scarlett_156
12-18-2006, 03:49 AM
56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.

(Deuteronomy 28) :)

SC Harrison
12-18-2006, 03:54 AM
Here's more (sorry):

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article1932745.ece

For the first time, women in India have legal protection against abuse in their own homes under a law which came into force yesterday. It is the first time Indian law has recognised marital rape, sexual, emotional or verbal abuse of a woman by her husband as crimes. India is a country where the streets are safe - but a woman is not safe inside her own home.

But concerns remain that even under the new law, many cases of abuse will still go unreported, unless attitudes towards domestic abuse change. The UN Population Fund's 2005 report found that 70 per cent of Indian women believed wife-beating was justified under certain circumstances, including refusal to provide sex, or preparing dinner late.

Tripla was born in the jungles of eastern India. But she died hundreds of miles from home, in the scrubby fields around Delhi, murdered by her husband because she refused to have sex with his brother.

She was born into a penniless family. So when a man came looking for a wife and offered £170 for her, her parents accepted.

She never saw her home or her family again. Her husband took her to his village in Mewat district, an hour's drive from Delhi. There is a shortage of women in the area, because of the practice of female foeticide.

They lived together as husband and wife for six months. Then Ajmer ordered her to sleep with his brother, who could not afford a wife.

When Tripla refused, Ajmer dragged her to a field near the village and beheaded her with a sickle.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 04:09 AM
They lived together as husband and wife for six months. Then Ajmer ordered her to sleep with his brother, who could not afford a wife.

Definition correction: prostitute, or slave.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 04:18 AM
Sidenote: if my husband ordered me to have sex with his brother, I'd kill myself.

Just sayin.

GPatten
12-18-2006, 05:04 AM
I just thought I’d let you know. I think we have members who are from India on here.

There’s KitKat from New Delhi, India
And Leonardo from India
And Simran from India
And Siddharth from Mumbai, India
And Tarachand from Bangalore, India
And werty37 from India
And whmtalk from India

billythrilly7th
12-18-2006, 06:19 AM
Sidenote: if my husband ordered me to have sex with his brother, I'd kill myself.

Just sayin.

Suggestion: Kill your husband instead of yourself.

tourdeforce
12-18-2006, 06:25 AM
They lived together as husband and wife for six months. Then Ajmer ordered her to sleep with his brother, who could not afford a wife.


Perhaps wfe swapping is going to be big in India. With some venture capital money, it might be a good idea to open a chain of Gandhi's Retreat swing clubs all over the country.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 06:55 AM
I just thought I’d let you know. I think we have members who are from India on here.

There’s KitKat from New Delhi, India
And Leonardo from India
And Simran from India
And Siddharth from Mumbai, India
And Tarachand from Bangalore, India
And werty37 from India
And whmtalk from India


Hopefully they will read this thread and give us a closer take on this.

Aruna is also originally from that neck of the world, I do believe.

GPatten
12-18-2006, 06:56 AM
I forgot Fahim from Sri Lanka
I have no idea if he is considered to be from India, though Sri Lanka is located about 31 kilometres (18½ mi) off the southern coast of India.

Fahim is not only a member, but he runs the joint.

billythrilly7th
12-18-2006, 07:14 AM
My great grandparents are all from Russia.

So, I guess I'm Russian.

Please go easy from now on in the From Russia With Love thread.

:D

SC Harrison
12-18-2006, 08:15 AM
My great grandparents are all from Russia.

So, I guess I'm Russian.

Please go easy from now on in the From Russia With Love thread.

:D

Sorry, pal. I can't do that. :)

And I'm sorry if I've offended anyone from India talking about the horrible treatment of females there. I won't stop doing that, either.

billythrilly7th
12-18-2006, 08:15 AM
Sorry, pal. I can't do that. :)

And I'm sorry if I've offended anyone from India talking about the horrible treatment of females there. I won't stop doing that, either.

Fair enough.
:)

aruna
12-18-2006, 09:41 AM
So, what should they do to get a grip on the population explosion and keep people from murdering their infant girls?


Nobody will admit to the crimes, so obviously asking them isn't an option.

20 years isn't a long time. 20 years ago - it was 1986. We're not talking about the middle ages.



So, it's worse to sterilize people then it is to murder babies? Isn't that what they want, to not have to worry about having children? I say force all the men to have vasectomies and stop the infant killings.

Either that or employ about a million nurses to do bi-annual checks on every female over the age of 15 - to see if she's pregnant. And if she is pregnant - there had better be a record of her infant on the next check.

Drastic times call for drastic measures.

You're right, I'm angry.
Eldragon, India DID have a very aggressive castration/sterilization programme going during Indira Gandhi's reign. They really don't need lessons form the West in this; many men were forcefully vasectomised, many women forcefully sterilized. Read the excellent novel A Fine Balance by Rohinton Mistri to get an idea of what a horror that was. If you travel through India you will see signs all over the place telling people to only have two children. This idea has been promoted for decades. It sounds so easy from our western viewpoint; it;s not so easy at all.
Among the poor, children are the only support parents have in sickness and old age. There is no health insurance or old age homes. Many children die; having many is a security that SOME will survive at least.
I don't want to get into the subject but it really is not wise to judge another culture unless one has actually lived there and seen it form the inside.

Those statistics also include abortions. There is no indication of how many are abortions, how many are actual murders.
How many abortions are carried out per year in America? How many teenagers, drunken people, or what have you kill their babies? How do the stats compare with India?


Killing infants based on their gender is sick. Why allow people to have children, if they only keep the boys and kill the girls?
Killing babies for ANY reason is horrible.

I have to say I find your generalizations rather unfair.

aruna
12-18-2006, 09:54 AM
Hopefully they will read this thread and give us a closer take on this.

Aruna is also originally from that neck of the world, I do believe.

I'm not originally for there but I have lived there and love the country like my own home. My children spent a lot of time there when they were young and they will both say that the Indians are the most loving, kindest people they have ever met anywhere - and they have both travelled to many countries, including Amrerica. America has nothing to teach Indians as far as loving-kindness to children is concerned.
India has a great culture and baby-killing is not a part of that, in spite of what you have read on this thread.
However - India is also a country of the greatest extremes I've seen anywhere in the world. Anyone thing you can say about it or its culture, the very opposite is also true.
Your revulsion at the practice is justified, but please note that India has some extremely active women's groups who fight against these evil practices. Americans do not have a monopoly on morality.

aruna
12-18-2006, 10:04 AM
A Time article on mass sterilizations during the Gandhi regime.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,947859,00.html


One issue, above everything else, cost Indira Gandhi the election: her mass sterilization campaign. No one questions that India needs effective family planning; after all, the country's population has almost doubled in 30 years (to 620 million) and may reach one billion by the year 2000. But the government's program to vasectomize millions of Indian males who had fathered two or more children—ruthlessly and often illegally applied—came to symbolize the dangers of authoritarian rule. TIME New Delhi Bureau Chief Lawrence Malkin reports:

eldragon
12-18-2006, 07:08 PM
I have to say I find your generalizations rather unfair.

Sorry, Aruna, but:



From the article:


Who has killed these girl children? Their own parents."

In some states, the minister said, newborn girls have been killed by pouring sand or tobacco juice into their nostrils.

"The minute the child is born and she opens her mouth to cry, they put sand into her mouth and her nostrils so she chokes and dies," Chowdhury said, referring to cases in the western desert state of Rajasthan.

"They bury infants into pots alive and bury the pots. They put tobacco into her mouth. They hang them upside down like a bunch of flowers to dry," she said.

Of course the US doesn't have the market on morality, but if a person was found doing this, they would go to jail.

When something terrible happens, a murder is commited, it is big news, plastered all over the country for everyone to read.

As far as abortions go, we have strict guidelines for when they can be done. In the state I live- no abortions are legal. (I'm pro-choice, by the way - but abortions done because of gender are wrong, imo.)

And regarding the article you posted, I think a forced sterilization for fathers who have 2 or more children is reasonable.

tourdeforce
12-18-2006, 07:13 PM
In the state I live- no abortions are legal.


How is that?

eldragon
12-18-2006, 07:15 PM
All nodded in agreement as Gyani Ram, 40, told how he had been forced to undergo a vasectomy, and then was denied a certificate after officials discovered too late that he was childless and should not have been sterilized in the first place. "I feel neither a man nor a woman," complained one man who had been sterilized. "The women tell us we are not men any more and that we should work in the kitchen while they work in the fields. My wife asked me to leave the house or stay and do the kitchen work."

None of the villagers I spoke with had been offered any guidance by a family-planning or social worker. No one had explained to them, for instance, that sterilization does not cause impotence.

This is really about ignorance. Plenty of men in Western society have vasectomies and do it gladly to prevent future children.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 07:15 PM
How is that?
Actually - I just read that there might be one abortion cliinic in the states capital - Jackson. One clinic in the entire state.

So while abortion might not be illegal, it's always being challenged by the state. And, someone needing an abortion would have a hard time getting one, and would need to go to Alabama or Louisiana, I'd think.

tourdeforce
12-18-2006, 07:22 PM
But it is legal.

Bravo
12-18-2006, 07:26 PM
When something terrible happens, a murder is commited, it is big news, plastered all over the country for everyone to read.

A) You're living in a fairytale. You're telling me the 16,700 (http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm) people killed every year all get plastered all over the news? Who are you kidding?


B) If having victims getting plastered all over the news is how we fight crime, we better start thinking about something else because it isn't working.

C) I see a lot of sweeping generalizations, hysterics, and emotionalism in your posts over this topic. Your calls for having men castrated, etc are obnoxious and pigheaded.

How many rapes happen in the US every day? Every hour? Minute?

We can help India solve their problems, not by rushing to our sidearms and nukes, but by helping those Indians who are fighting this.

It disturbs me a great deal to see how narrow-minded, crass, and holier than thou so many Americans are.

Let's fix ourselves up and quit pretending like we're this utopian city on a hill.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 07:28 PM
I suppose it is.

I'm pro-choice, btw.


Well, that's something I learned today.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 07:31 PM
Bravo, I'm talking about infants who are killed. Not all murders.



C) I see a lot of sweeping generalizations, hysterics, and emotionalism in your posts over this topic. Your calls for having men castrated, etc are obnoxious and pigheaded.

Oh, so when Indira Gandhi created the same rule, was that hysterical, emotional, obnoxious and pigheaded?

SC Harrison
12-18-2006, 07:57 PM
Americans do not have a monopoly on morality.

You're absolutely right, we don't.

But...if you'll look at the last article I posted, where the survey had 70% of Indian women who thought wife-beating was appropriate in some cases, I have to wonder if the definitions of "moral" are even the same.

aruna
12-18-2006, 08:00 PM
Oh, so when Indira Gandhi created the same rule, was that hysterical, emotional, obnoxious and pigheaded?

Yes.

aruna
12-18-2006, 08:02 PM
You're absolutely right, we don't.

But...if you'll look at the last article I posted, where the survey had 70% of Indian women who thought wife-beating was appropriate in some cases, I have to wonder if the definitions of "moral" are even the same.

Actually, I often found from personal experiece that the definitions of "moral" were actually higher than here. Association with great Indians has certainly changed me for the better.

Bravo
12-18-2006, 08:10 PM
Oh, so when Indira Gandhi created the same rule, was that hysterical, emotional, obnoxious and pigheaded?

Yes.

And it would be even more obnoxious if Indira Gandhi was sitting in Mumbai, India telling Americans to sterilize males because they commit the most murders in this country.

Take a step back and reevaluate your position, because this entire thread makes you come across as a crass individual who still believes in White Man's Burden.

TheGaffer
12-18-2006, 08:15 PM
This is a hard article to read. I visited India last year, and even now have a pen-pal, a nice family with 2 kids who we correspond with and like very much. I have a lot of affection for that country. The kindness of those I met are unmatched in many other countries, including our own. On the other hand, they have certain problems that we can't even come close to -- poverty, pollution, even just the level of g*d***ed garbage on the street. I find this a barbaric, despicable act, and would think it's the right thing for India to address it.

tourdeforce
12-18-2006, 08:15 PM
White Man's Burden.


What does the inability to dance have to do with this?

Bravo
12-18-2006, 08:18 PM
What does the inability to dance have to do with this?

Bollywood.

Until we can dance in those films, we have no right to force them to do anything.

Thank you.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 08:20 PM
You can't have it both ways.

It's not enough to sit back give platitudes like "Disgusting!" and "Barbaric!" when talking about infant genocide, and then say the same things when given the few choices of what should be done to stop it.


You can't stop people from having sex. You can't force them to wear condoms or take birth control pills. You can't keep them from aborting female fetuses, which obviously have to be at least 4/5 months into the pregnancy for that information to be known. Then, you can't keep them from murdering the baby girl when she's born, simply because she's a female.


Then you are considered barbaric and emotional if you suggest sterilization.


In the end, nothing changes. Everyone cries "Disgusting!" and the practice continues.

God forbid an adults personal rights are infringed in any way by making them unable to create more children.

The only thing that is disgusting and barbaric is murdering infants by the millions. Nothing else compares to that.

Bravo
12-18-2006, 08:23 PM
How on earth can you have these statements:


You can't stop people from having sex. You can't force them to wear condoms or take birth control pills. You can't keep them from aborting female fetuses, which obviously have to be at least 4/5 months into the pregnancy for that information to be known.


God forbid an adults personal rights are infringed in any way by making them unable to create more children.


next to each other???

So you can't force people to not have sex or abortions, but you can force them to not have children and that is somehow okay and right in your worldview.

Wow.

Words fail me.

p.s. are these sterlizations gender neutral or are you just for castrating men?

eldragon
12-18-2006, 08:25 PM
Take a step back and reevaluate your position, because this entire thread makes you come across as a crass individual who still believes in White Man's Burden.


Take a step back and re-evaluate my position on infant genocide?

This has nothing to do with white men, or orange men or gray men or yellow men. This is a problem that should be addressed by humanity.


It's my belief that the world should be as one, not broken down into thousands of countries. We are all people, regardless of where we were born.

aruna
12-18-2006, 08:28 PM
I understand that in America, 3012 children are killed every year by gunshot wounds. I don't know what the kids-killed-by-guns stat for India is, but it is very likely 0.
An Indian reading that stat might well conclude that "America shoots 3000 children a year." Might well find this statistic horrendous and frightening and rant about the danger to children on America's streets. An Indian might well wonder of India should invade America to teach Americans how not to shoot children.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 08:28 PM
next to each other???

So you can't force people to not have sex or abortions, but you can force them to not have children and that is somehow okay and right in your worldview.

Wow.

Words fail me.

p.s. are these sterlizations gender neutral or are you just for castrating men?

Did you read Aruna's article? It said that men were sterilized after they fathered two or more children.

It's more cost effective to do vasectomies instead of having a woman's tubes tied, which is a surgical procedure.

Words fail me that castrating adults is considered to be worse than killing millions of infants.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 08:31 PM
I understand that in America, 3012 children are killed every year by gunshot wounds. I don't know what the kids-killed-by-guns stat for India is, but it is very likely 0.
An Indian reading that stat might well conclude that "America shoots 3000 children a year." Might well find this statistic horrendous and frightening and rant about the danger to children on America's streets. An Indian might well wonder of India should invade America to teach Americans how not to shoot children.

I'm all for gun-control.

I'm sure some of the gunshot wounds are from hunting accidents. Some would be from the illegal use of guns, I'm sure. Others are accidents in the home, from a child picking up their parents gun.

Who ever mentioned invasion?

aruna
12-18-2006, 08:37 PM
Take a step back and re-evaluate my position on infant genocide?

.

Nobody is contesting your position on infant genocide, Eldragon. What I am contesting is your apparent belief that this is somehow something all Indians are doing, and that they must be punished "in advance" by castration/sterilisation, and taught morals by a superior society. And I find your "solution" simply - primitive.

The problem has to be addressed at source. Overcoming poverty and police corruption would be the ways to deal with it. The laws are there - they have to be enforced, which means the police have to do their job and ensure the guilty are punished.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 08:42 PM
And I find your "solution" simply - primitive.

Overcoming poverty is not a quick fix, which is something that India needs.


I think murdering infants for being female is primitive, but hey - what do I know?

aruna
12-18-2006, 08:43 PM
I'm all for gun-control.

I'm sure some of the gunshot wounds are from hunting accidents. Some would be from the illegal use of guns, I'm sure. Others are accidents in the home, from a child picking up their parents gun.

Who ever mentioned invasion?

I am only trying to show you how an Indian might think on reading such a statistic - and how mislead such an Indian would be. You seem to think that Indians go around murdering girl-children, which is simply not the case.

(voluntary) Vasectomies are a good answer to India's population problem - I agree totally. And better incentives are a way to achieve that. Maybe pay the families, or establish some kind of old-age pension scheme so they wouldn't want more than two children. It's a complex problem, a complex society.

But you cannot just assume that all men are going to kill their girl children and for THAT reason go around performing forced vasectomies.

aruna
12-18-2006, 08:46 PM
Overcoming poverty is not a quick fix, which is something that India needs.


I think murdering infants for being female is primitive, but hey - what do I know?

The thing is; there is no quick fix. There never is. We can rail and rant about "the quick fixes that India needs", but there isn't going to be one. Just as there is no quick fix for America's drug problems, or gun problems.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 08:48 PM
But you cannot just assume that all men are going to kill their girl children and for THAT reason go around performing forced vasectomies.

The article never it's the men who kill their daughters. Again - a vasectomy is a simple procedure for a man, while tubal ligation requires general surgery for a woman.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 08:50 PM
Getting back to the article you posted upthread, why would any man in India volunteer for a vasectomy?

Bravo
12-18-2006, 08:51 PM
The article never it's the men who kill their daughters. Again - a vasectomy is a simple procedure for a man, while tubal ligation requires general surgery for a woman.

Haskins posted an article earlier that showed that it's richer families that are doing the most gendercide.

Maybe we should tell Indians to get rid of those pesky aristrocrats.

That should do it.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 08:53 PM
The practice of killing the girl child is more prevalent among the educated, including in upmarket districts of New Delhi, making it more challenging for the government, the minister said.

Educated, not richer.


Since it's a problem of financial hardship to have girls, why would rich people kill their daughters?

aruna
12-18-2006, 08:57 PM
Actually, I would think its the rich/educated ones who abort, and the poor ones who kill after birth. I can't imagined that really poor families have the means to test for gender, or for abortions. But that's just an opinion. Don't mind me.

Bravo
12-18-2006, 08:57 PM
The educated class is richer.

But fine, let's stop people from going to school.

They must've learned this practice from somewhere, dammit.

eldragon
12-18-2006, 09:10 PM
Except for providing educational and medical aid, I can't see how military force would help a domestic problem, anyway.

It's clearly something that India needs to handle themselves.

SC Harrison
12-18-2006, 09:23 PM
Since it's a problem of financial hardship to have girls, why would rich people kill their daughters?

They have more to lose from the Dowry system as compared to a dirt-poor family.

Think about that one for a minute.

TheGaffer
12-18-2006, 09:24 PM
Again - a vasectomy is a simple procedure for a man, while tubal ligation requires general surgery for a woman.

But what does this have to do with anything?

robeiae
12-18-2006, 10:06 PM
They have more to lose from the Dowry system as compared to a dirt-poor family.Correct.

And crunching numbers:

India pop: 1,000,000,000 (est., per year ave. lower))
India birth rate: 25 per 1,000 pop. (est., most likely higher)
India yearly births: 25,000,000

It's a huge problem. But it's wrong to see it as common. It's likely that the same families repeat these acts. So we're talking about much less than 10% of the pop. You can't punish the other 90+% just for fun.

aruna
12-18-2006, 10:37 PM
It's a huge problem. But it's wrong to see it as common. It's likely that the same families repeat these acts. So we're talking about much less than 10% of the pop. You can't punish the other 90+% just for fun.

Exactly. As a preventive measure it just makes no sense. Who are you going to castrate/vasectomize? All men? wipe out the entire Indian population? How are you going to predict who is going to abort/kill a girl baby? Are you going to do it to all men "just in case"?

Tiger
12-18-2006, 10:51 PM
It's my belief that the world should be as one, not broken down into thousands of countries. We are all people, regardless of where we were born.

Yes, we should all travel the same road: ours

English Dave
12-18-2006, 11:10 PM
Friggin English Dave.

I knew somehow this mess was his fault.

Okay I'm a bit late. But I would like to state for the record that my political leanings on this matter are and always have been influenced by the enlightened thinking of Maurice Chevalier. 'Sank 'eavens for leetle girls. For leetle girls get bigger everyday'

But not quite so pervy.

Industrialisation, education, social services and and economic stabilisation throughout the population rather than just the top 2% will eventually get rid of what is to the West this disgusting blight in certain cultures.

For the desperately poor [and sometimes not] Women are seen as a cost center rather than an economic generator. And until that gross inequity is changed through modernisation and social and economic reform I can't see the situation improving.

Tiger
12-18-2006, 11:16 PM
Who ever mentioned invasion?

If your "program" for Indian male sterilization by the One Planet (except India), were to somehow be enacted, I'd say you would be the one who mentioned invasion.

SC Harrison
12-19-2006, 12:35 AM
It's a huge problem. But it's wrong to see it as common. It's likely that the same families repeat these acts. So we're talking about much less than 10% of the pop. You can't punish the other 90+% just for fun.

I agree, and I don't believe (involuntary) sterilization is any kind of answer.

But you can't just isolate infanticide of females and crunch numbers from there. It is a byproduct of a larger issue, that effects a considerably higher percentage of the population, that being the status of women in society.

An unmarried woman has little or no status, and finds it extremely difficult to find gainful employment, except for maybe grueling agricultural labor. (change this and many negative things fade away)

So marriage (unfortunately) becomes incredibly important as an institution, and something that carries a "dollar value", as it were. Thanks to the Dowry system, the gender of children is viewed in the light of financial assets/liabilities, with females filling the "liability" column. Even if this system is not abused (killing wives, extorting property), females are born into the world representing a burden. (change this and many negative things fade away)


As to we Americans having no business telling another culture what to do, I say this: the plight of women is a subject for every decent soul on this planet. There are issues that should be addressed in every single country on this globe, and it doesn't matter who discusses the problems, it only matters that they be discussed.

And you know what? They're not being discussed. Worldwide, there's forced labor, indentured servitude, outright slavery, rape as a form of courtship(?), mutilation, prostitution, battery and murder. Use 'em up, kill 'em, then go get another one. Like animals. Hell, animals are often treated better than women, because they might bring in more money.

Sorry. I don't mean to rant, but don't tell me to mind my own business. Not about this subject.

billythrilly7th
12-19-2006, 12:42 AM
As to we Americans having no business telling another culture what to do

That's always my favorite.

Got into a big fight with some girl at my place of work a few years back about this.

"We shouldn't be telling other cultures what to do!"

"Yes we should."

"No we shouldn't."

"Yes we should."

"No we shouldn't"

"Yes we should, yes we should, yes we should!"

And then we broke into a full musical number.

Everyone was suspended.

TheGaffer
12-19-2006, 12:51 AM
Every situation is different.

We've got to speak out about an issue such as this.

The citizens of Tennessee should not be telling the people of Italy how to cook.

Syria should not lecture anybody on human rights.

The proud nation of Cameroon should not attempt to make "ski instructors" their top export.

The Australians should perhaps refrain from the global discussion on sobriety.

When it's time to appoint a "Global Czar on Stopping Business Corruption," the resumes submitted by the oligarchs in Russia would not be the ones I'd put in the "consider these" category.

We have very little credibility telling a nation not to interfere in the Middle East right around now.


And so on it goes.

English Dave
12-19-2006, 12:58 AM
'We Americans' isn't really relevant in cases where there is a deep seated and almost universal moral belief that children shouldn't be killed because of their sex.

And let's not get into the whole abortion and death penalty debate. Killing a live infant is pretty much going to be murder. No matter how you cut it.

tourdeforce
12-19-2006, 01:29 AM
Killing a live infant is pretty much going to be murder. No matter how you cut it.

Unless it's self defense.

Like if a baby had a gun or knife and was going all Chucky, shooting and stabbing people, then I think one might be justified in killing the kid in self-defense.

Just want to go on the record with that.

dclary
12-19-2006, 01:32 AM
Excellent point. Maybe we're missing something here. Is it possible that all Indian girl-children are actually zombies or other vicious flesh-eaters?

SC Harrison
12-19-2006, 01:37 AM
A pox on both of you, and your families.

Just kidding. Your families are not to be poxed.

English Dave
12-19-2006, 01:49 AM
Unless it's self defense.

Like if a baby had a gun or knife and was going all Chucky, shooting and stabbing people, then I think one might be justified in killing the kid in self-defense.

Just want to go on the record with that.

There are always exceptions and of course self defense should be taken into account.

eldragon
12-19-2006, 02:44 AM
(voluntary) Vasectomies are a good answer to India's population problem - I agree totally. And better incentives are a way to achieve that. Maybe pay the families, or establish some kind of old-age pension scheme so they wouldn't want more than two children. It's a complex problem, a complex society.

I wanted to address Arunas comment.

Paying the familes wouldn't really stop them from killing newborns, instead - wouldn't it be a reason to eliminate unwanted children?


I don't think it's a matter of not wanting more than two children, I think it's a matter of not taking precautions against pregnancy.

English Dave
12-19-2006, 02:47 AM
I wanted to address Arunas comment.

Paying the familes wouldn't really stop them from killing newborns, instead - wouldn't it be a reason to eliminate unwanted children?


I don't think it's a matter of not wanting more than two children, I think it's a matter of not taking precautions against pregnancy.

I think it is a case of creating economic and social circumstances where killing new born babies is not appropriate. Contraception can play a part.

billythrilly7th
12-19-2006, 02:49 AM
I think it is a case of creating economic and social circumstances where killing new born babies is not appropriate. Contraception can play a part.

I think abolishing the Dowry system would be the right first step.

eldragon
12-19-2006, 02:57 AM
I can't help to wonder where the original article obtained the figure of 10 million babies murdered - either before or after birth.

There is probably a record of abortions, but what system would be used to identify babies suffocated after birth? I'm sure it's nothing anyone admits to doing, so how would anyone know about it?


Still, we're talking about late-term abortions, because you cannot correctly predict the sex of the baby until around 20 weeks. There have been preemies born at that gestational age, who have survived (with medical help, of course.)


While I am pro-choice, I think the procedure should be done asap - before 12 weeks, absolutely.

English Dave
12-19-2006, 02:57 AM
I like it. Whether it gets you any shag, though. . . .
Nope.

But I hear Yank chicks are a pushover for it. I need a Green Card. Any offers?

SC Harrison
12-19-2006, 03:02 AM
I don't think it's a matter of not wanting more than two children, I think it's a matter of not taking precautions against pregnancy.

I think it's a matter of wanting only boy babies, not girls. If you use precautions, where are the valuable boy babies going to come from?

eldragon
12-19-2006, 03:13 AM
So, the figure is a guesstimate based on how few females there are in India?


But the writer knows enough about it to detail how the killing is done (by pouring sand or tobacco juice in a babies nostrils?)


I'm just wondering where the figures comes from.

English Dave
12-19-2006, 03:25 AM
I think it's a matter of wanting only boy babies, not girls. If you use precautions, where are the valuable boy babies going to come from?

Not to be a schill but I just happened to have patented the World's first girlacoid condom. Roll up! Roll Up!

dclary
12-19-2006, 04:02 AM
If we can choose the sex of our velociraptors in the egg, why can't the Indian's select the sex of their children in the womb?

English Dave
12-19-2006, 04:20 AM
If we can choose the sex of our velociraptors in the egg, why can't the Indian's select the sex of their children in the womb?

I don't recall a gender bias in Jurrasic Park.

Apart from the guy sitting down on the toilet.

dclary
12-19-2006, 04:28 AM
I don't recall a gender bias in Jurrasic Park.

Apart from the guy sitting down on the toilet.

You need to rewatch or reread, then. They specifically bred only females to ensure no mating. But as Jeff Goldblum so eloquently pointed out: life will find a way.


And toilet dude died because he was a lawyer. They're sexless anyway.

English Dave
12-19-2006, 04:45 AM
You need to rewatch or reread, then. They specifically bred only females to ensure no mating. But as Jeff Goldblum so eloquently pointed out: life will find a way.


.
Using incomplete frog DNA and rampant male Dinosours was a recipe for disaster.

English Dave
12-19-2006, 05:03 AM
That explains me. At least now I know.

Thank you.

Dammit

I should have said....


SPOILERS

Tiger
12-19-2006, 05:31 AM
That explains me. At least now I know.

Thank you.

Ribbit... Ribbit... Ribbit...

English Dave
12-19-2006, 05:36 AM
Ribbit... Ribbit... Ribbit...

So Tigers go ....Ribbit. ....M'kay.

Christine N.
12-19-2006, 05:52 AM
Maybe someone could start a 'dowry bank' or something for these poor girls. Like the trees, but something that doesn't have a chance to die before the girl is of age.

Stockpile stuff that husbands would want. Girls who qualify can 'withdraw' stuff for their dowry.

Just a thought. Maybe it's stupid, I don't know.

I know you're trying to downplay it, Aruna, but even one baby girl being killed, just because she's a girl, is a waste of life and totally heartbreaking. Some of the most beautiful women I've ever seen are Indian - so terribly sad to waste such beauty.

Bravo
12-19-2006, 05:55 AM
Maybe someone could start a 'dowry bank' or something for these poor girls. Like the trees, but something that doesn't have a chance to die before the girl is of age.

Stockpile stuff that husbands would want. Girls who qualify can 'withdraw' stuff for their dowry.
.

That would just perpetuate the system.

English Dave
12-19-2006, 05:56 AM
Maybe someone could start a 'dowry bank' or something for these poor girls. Like the trees, but something that doesn't have a chance to die before the girl is of age.

Stockpile stuff that husbands would want. Girls who qualify can 'withdraw' stuff for their dowry.

Just a thought. Maybe it's stupid, I don't know.

I know you're trying to downplay it, Aruna, but even one baby girl being killed, just because she's a girl, is a waste of life and totally heartbreaking. Some of the most beautiful women I've ever seen are Indian - so terribly sad to waste such beauty.

Is this an advert for 'Kill them all. Kill them now'.

Just asikn'

Tiger
12-19-2006, 06:30 AM
So Tigers go ....Ribbit. ....M'kay.

...Just before spontaneously changing genders, yes

SC Harrison
12-19-2006, 08:24 AM
Maybe someone could start a 'dowry bank' or something for these poor girls. Like the trees, but something that doesn't have a chance to die before the girl is of age.

.

There is something brewing, but it will irritate the UN bashers here.

They have a program for granting micro-loans to women so they can maybe have a chance to make a life for themselves outside of the traditional male-dominated, be-married-or-be-nothing culture. If enough of these brave women succeed, it could lead to a future where females aren't automatically considered a burden on the family.

Here's more:

http://www.workingwomensforum.org/article10.htm

aruna
12-19-2006, 09:22 AM
I think abolishing the Dowry system would be the right first step.

Billy, the dowry system HAS been asbolished. It is illegal. And yet it continues, and there's just no way of enforcing the law.

aruna
12-19-2006, 09:28 AM
I know you're trying to downplay it, Aruna, but even one baby girl being killed, just because she's a girl, is a waste of life and totally heartbreaking. Some of the most beautiful women I've ever seen are Indian - so terribly sad to waste such beauty.

I'm not at all trying to downplay it, Christine! I've known about this practice for a long timne, and as I said in my first post about it, in my first novel the main character loses two daughters this way (killed by the father) which was my little way of drawing attention to the probmlem.

So no, I'm not downplaying it. Which is NOT the same as Eldragon's making it out to be as common as, well, circumcision in America????;) Somebody has to rein in the scattershot lynch mob ('scuse the mixed metaphor)!

It's not fair on the Indians to paint them all by the same brush, and call them child murderers which is what has been done here. Even the title of the thread is like a tabloid newspaper: INDIA murders girl babies. That is just not true.

aruna
12-19-2006, 09:30 AM
So, the figure is a guesstimate based on how few females there are in India?


But the writer knows enough about it to detail how the killing is done (by pouring sand or tobacco juice in a babies nostrils?)


m.

Eldragon, I'm pretty sure that method was mentioned mainly for it's shock value, and is not the "established" MO. It's fairly simple to kill a newborn if that is your intention. The easiest, and probably most common, way and the least likely to be found out by the authorities is suffocation.

aruna
12-19-2006, 09:39 AM
I think it's a matter of wanting only boy babies, not girls. If you use precautions, where are the valuable boy babies going to come from?

Exactly. Among the poor, boy babies are desired because they are the only support the parents will have in old age or in an emergency such as illness or unemployment.
Whereas girl children are a burden - they have to be fed and clothed for 15 years, and then they are lost to another family. They can propel a family into utter destitution.

So the solution is to give the whole family more economic indepedence from children. Stuff that we take for granted such as pensions and social security. And that is a process India can and must undertake on its own.

I don't really understand why the rich/eduacted would want to select boys. Indian women in those classes are highly educated and there's little stigma in them going out to work, at least before children are born. Even the classic role of a boy - to perform last rites when his father dies - is dying out among the educated. A good Indian friend of mine is from an all-girl family and SHE performed those rites for her father. She says it's perectly OK now for women to do it.

Tiger
12-19-2006, 09:43 AM
Exactly. Among the poor, boy babies are desired because they are the only support the parents will have in old age or in an emergency such as illness or unemployment.
Whereas girl children are a burden - they have to be fed and clothed for 15 years, and then they are lost to another family. They can propel a family into utter destitution.

So the solution is to give the whole family more economic indepedence from children. Stuff that we take for granted such as pensions and social security. And that is a process India can and must undertake on its own.

I don't really understand why the rich/eduacted would want to select boys. Indian women in those classes are highly educated and there's little stigma in them going out to work, at least before children are born. Even the classic role of a boy - to perform last rites when his father dies - is dying out among the educated. A good Indian friend of mine is from an all-girl family and SHE performed those rites for her father. She says it's perectly OK now for women to do it.

Patrilineal society: no sons, no continuation of the name.

aruna
12-19-2006, 09:48 AM
Patrilineal society: no sons, no continuation of the name.

Yes, but there's nothing preventing a rich family from having boys AND girls.

poetinahat
12-19-2006, 09:56 AM
I know you're trying to downplay it, Aruna, but even one baby girl being killed, just because she's a girl, is a waste of life and totally heartbreaking. Some of the most beautiful women I've ever seen are Indian - so terribly sad to waste such beauty.
I know it's not what you were getting at, but I hope the world cares for the plain ones just as much.

Tiger
12-19-2006, 09:59 AM
Yes, but there's nothing preventing a rich family from having boys AND girls.

Okay... Now, I get it.

eldragon
12-19-2006, 06:15 PM
So no, I'm not downplaying it. Which is NOT the same as Eldragon's making it out to be as common as, well, circumcision in America????;) Somebody has to rein in the scattershot lynch mob ('scuse the mixed metaphor)!

It's not fair on the Indians to paint them all by the same brush, and call them child murderers which is what has been done here. Even the title of the thread is like a tabloid newspaper: INDIA murders girl babies. That is just not true.

I didn't write the article, Aruna.


How am I making the death of 10 million infants in India sound as common as circumcision in America?

I read the article, and am appropriately appalled.


So, you don't believe that the article is factual. It's probably sensationalized a bit.

But there so many millions of females missing from the Indian population, right?

Is that my fault, too?

tourdeforce
12-19-2006, 06:45 PM
The Pakistan Chamber of Commerce has just announced that a recent census reveals that they probably killed 11 million girls in the last 20 years, surpassing the Indian total by a full million. A stamp is expected to commemorate this achievement in the bitter rivalry between these two nations.

aruna
12-19-2006, 07:02 PM
[/b]

I didn't write the article, Aruna.


How am I making the death of 10 million infants in India sound as common as circumcision in America?

I read the article, and am appropriately appalled.


So, you don't believe that the article is factual. It's probably sensationalized a bit.

But there so many millions of females missing from the Indian population, right?

Is that my fault, too?

I meant that you kind of overreacted, with your suggestion of mass castrations/vasectomies as a preventive measure.

I think the article is probably factual and the numbers are probably right. But I was a journalist myself; one creates effects by emphasizing the things you want to emphasize.

Nobody is blaming anyone; but this has been going on lonog before you were aware of it; it;s not as if it's something that has suddenly happened. Indians are aware of it and are dealing with it. Your horror is understandable, but it doesn't help to vilify a whle nation. Nor does it helo tio see that nation through one prism. You cannot possibly understand the situation; if you really care that much then please go there and do something; they way I did.

eldragon
12-19-2006, 07:17 PM
I meant that you kind of overreacted, with your suggestion of mass castrations/vasectomies as a preventive measure.

That would be hard to do, in my opinion.

aruna
12-19-2006, 07:22 PM
Then why suggest it?

eldragon
12-19-2006, 07:46 PM
Then why suggest it?

Because I think measures to prevent pregnancy are alot more humane and practical than the slaughter of infants.


But that's just me. I'm from the west. We don't view the ability to procreate as being the only thing that makes our lives worthwhile. People actually pay to have their tubes tied or have vasectomies and are relieved that they no longer have to worry about unwanted pregnancies. It's not considered a barbaric practice at all, but an informed choice that many people make when their family is complete.

But even if I didnt' have my tubes tied, or my husband had a vasectomy, there would be measures taken to prevent unwanted pregnancies. You don't even need to use pills or condoms - a good idea of how your cycle works will go along way in preventing pregnancy.

But then again, I have a choice as to whether or not I have sex. It''s not demanded by my husband, it's a mutual decision we make. He can't rape me or murder me when I say no. If he decides to do those things, he goes to jail.

Sorry I'm not from India and can't understand their ways. Actually, I'm not sorry. If I were from India, chances are both of my daughters would be dead.

aruna
12-19-2006, 07:55 PM
Because I think measures to prevent pregnancy are alot more humane and practical than the slaughter of infants.

But they don't want to prevent pregnancy. I just took some pains to explain that CHILDREN ARE NEEDED as a security.





Sorry I'm not from India and can't understand their ways. Actually, I'm not sorry. If I were from India, chances are both of my daughters would be dead.

I find this statement - and what went before - not only utterly disrespectful towards Indians, but - sorry to say it - idiotic.

SC Harrison
12-19-2006, 07:56 PM
Yes, but there's nothing preventing a rich family from having boys AND girls.

Other than gender bias that's a product of several generations of cultural influence.

aruna
12-19-2006, 08:01 PM
Well, I know several wealthy Indian families with girls where the girls are not only well educated but deeply loved and cherished. Speak to educated Indian women; they will say that they are terribly misunderstood in the west. They are actually quite strong, and not the submissive chattels they are made out to be over here.
Don;t forget that India had a female Prime Minister long before America could even conceive of havng a female President.
The situation is in reality much, much more complex as that you could understand through newspaper articles.

eldragon
12-19-2006, 08:02 PM
Nevermind. Pointless.

aruna
12-19-2006, 08:04 PM
You are saying that females are killed, oh, just in passing, in India. Think about this statement a little bit yourself.

eldragon
12-19-2006, 08:05 PM
The article says that.

I'm just saying how I feel about it, if the article is true.

aruna
12-19-2006, 08:17 PM
Eldragon, the article did NOT say Indian girls are being killed, just in passing. That is just not true. Just think about it for a while. Think of what the article actually said, and what irrational conclusions you have jumped to.

eldragon
12-19-2006, 08:41 PM
Eldragon, the article did NOT say Indian girls are being killed, just in passing. That is just not true. Just think about it for a while. Think of what the article actually said, and what irrational conclusions you have jumped to.

Besides you, who ever made the phrase, "just in passing?"


Which irrational conclusions I have jumped to?

You lost me.

aruna
12-19-2006, 08:45 PM
That if you lived in India your daughter would probably be dead. Think of how ridiculous a statement that is. That is why I said ironically "just in passing". As if India is some murderous beast that would kill your daughters. It is not good to cultivate such fears, based on nothing at all.

eldragon
12-19-2006, 08:46 PM
I went back and re-read the first article. No, I don't think I'm drawing irrational conclusions.


Here's something else from the article:


Chowdhury said the fall in the number of females had cost one percent of India's and created shortages of girls in some states like Haryana, where in one case four brothers had to marry one woman.

OK.

aruna
12-19-2006, 08:49 PM
I give up.

aruna
12-19-2006, 08:51 PM
No, just one more think.
What you just said, actually, is that if you lived in India you would have killed your own daughters. That is the only rational conclusion I can draw between what the article said, and what you said.

eldragon
12-19-2006, 08:57 PM
I said:



Sorry I'm not from India and can't understand their ways. Actually, I'm not sorry. If I were from India, chances are both of my daughters would be dead.

I never said I'd kill them.


.

aruna
12-19-2006, 09:03 PM
But the article said nothing about other people's daughters being killed. It was about PARENTS killing their own daughters.

This is the Worst. Ever. Thread.

Christine N.
12-19-2006, 09:30 PM
Is this an advert for 'Kill them all. Kill them now'.

Just asikn'

Goddess no! Why would you even say that. I know it would perpetuate the system, but obviously the system isn't going anywhere anytime soon, despite the outlawing of it. I was just trying to think of a way for people to, you know, not kill their children. If lack of dowry is the reason, take the reason away. The rest of the world ditched it a century or so ago.

Aruna, honey, I know where you're coming from. I understand, on some level, why it's done. It's just so terrifying to us, who don't live there. Like the ritualistic genital mutilation of young girls in African countries.

Believe me, if I could do something, I certainly would. And that's what's even scarier is that you know stuff like this happens, like the genocide in the Congo, and are helpless to do anything about it. I cry when I read stuff like this, because loss of a young life, so full of potential, is just so sad.

Someone needs to tell those people that girls can work too. :)

I know cultural change is slow.

aruna
12-19-2006, 10:02 PM
Yes. The pain of the world - and mostly, the world's children, is almost too much to bear. There is so much, everywhere.
I worked with a small charity in |South India which tried to - and did - make a difference. There's a school for 800 of the poorest rural boys and girls, support for the families. A training centre for women where they can learn crafts, and later, they are given employment sewing, embroidering etc of stuff that is imported to the West. It is just wonderful to see them at work and producing such beautiful work.
My own personal cause is child prostitution. I went to Bombay's red light district, saw those poor girls, and it just broke my heart in two. My greatest desire is to make a difference there. Here's an interview I did with the doctor who works there: http://sharonmaas.com/html/interview_with_dr_gilada.html

Tiger
12-19-2006, 10:05 PM
Aruna, honey, I know where you're coming from. I understand, on some level, why it's done.

Not to kibbitz or anything, but I don't think you're understanding what she's saying.

Christine N.
12-19-2006, 10:17 PM
Whatever.
No, I do get it. I get that some people are so strapped to an antequated system that they need to murder their children at birth. I get why they are stuck - much the same way that I get why some are stuck relying on welfare in this country, because they can't find a job that would pay them more than they're getting from welfare. Much the same way that Chinese girls are drowned or suffocated because their girls who happened to be born into a country that limits the number of children people can have, so they want only boys to perpetuate their family name.

Relying on such a system, being entrenched in it so deeply that despite the illegality of it they feel they have no choice but to kill their own daughters? How heartbroken they must be, becauese I can't imagine a parent doing that without it scarring their soul.

What don't I understand? What is the solution?

I DO get it. I just don't have to like it. I applaud people over there who are trying to make the change, and I understand that change is slow.

So, next time you try and crawl inside my head, wipe your feet please.

Tiger
12-19-2006, 10:30 PM
Whatever.
No, I do get it. I get that some people are so strapped to an antequated system that they need to murder their children at birth. I get why they are stuck - much the same way that I get why some are stuck relying on welfare in this country, because they can't find a job that would pay them more than they're getting from welfare. Much the same way that Chinese girls are drowned or suffocated because their girls who happened to be born into a country that limits the number of children people can have, so they want only boys to perpetuate their family name.

Relying on such a system, being entrenched in it so deeply that despite the illegality of it they feel they have no choice but to kill their own daughters? How heartbroken they must be, becauese I can't imagine a parent doing that without it scarring their soul.

What don't I understand? What is the solution?

I DO get it. I just don't have to like it. I applaud people over there who are trying to make the change, and I understand that change is slow.

So, next time you try and crawl inside my head, wipe your feet please.

Why would I want to crawl inside your head? I'm simply saying that when someone argues point A, You come up with a response for point Z.

Do you understand that when I say you don't understand what she's saying, that I'm talking about a specific exchange with Aruna? Where you get off putting me on the other side of your entire crusade?

I think your doormat would be better placed under the exit sign.

Christine N.
12-19-2006, 10:41 PM
Sorry. I guess I just wasn't clear. Threads have lots of things going on, if I reply and it doesn't make sense, maybe I've replied to something else.

Tiger
12-19-2006, 11:10 PM
Sorry. I guess I just wasn't clear. Threads have lots of things going on, if I reply and it doesn't make sense, maybe I've replied to something else.

Right back at you (again) ;)

Sury
12-20-2006, 09:17 AM
What a thread to start my morning with. I would like to begin by thanking Aruna from the core of my heart. For directing me here and for presenting the Indian perspective on the issue. Thanks, Aruna. :Hug2:

Going through the posts here, I could see the passions and emotions it generated, and it's good to see that. We need a world full of members like AWers.

This is a tough subject. But like most tough subjects, it calls for studying and understanding the issued deeply before making sweeping generalizations. Quite literally this means, Like Aruna and me, you have to live/be born in India to truly understand the horrific phenomenon of female infanticide.

Yes, it does happen here. Both before and after the birth of girl children. But it's not something people love to do, you know. Just think about it, which parent (mother or father) would enjoy smothering his/her infant to death? Nobody does, even the poorest of poor; trust me. The system forces them to commit this most horrendous act, though. If you knew the conditions these poor families faced as the girl grew up, you won't think of them as criminals. You would cry for them. The system is criminal, not the people.

There are laws against it. There are laws against the dowry system, which has a direct link to these killings. But laws are NOT enough in a country of billions. Besides, bringing about change by using force is only myopic at best. As Aruna suggests, read 'A Fine Balance'. You will see what I mean.

What is needed is mass education and a fresh mindset that will make people see the potential dangers of doing this (what will all the men do with so few women around?). The dowry system can't be done away with a single legal stroke. But attitudes and sensibilities can be inculcated. Gradually.

A lot of NGOs are actively working to raise awareness. But a country of billions needs more workers. Thankfully, we have a vibrant electronic media now, which is admirably doing its bit to discuss social concerns such as these. Changes are happening, even if slowly.

It was heartening to see the concern and pain felt by the posters here. Just to set the records straight, despite those ghastly figures, India is not a nation of child murderers. In our family, I have never been seen as less than my brother (in fact, he still accuses my mother of being partial towards me, LOL). I have been free to take my decisions and speak my mind. This is no way a defence of the prevailing terrible practices; just an effort to put things into perspective.

You are right Aruna. WE need to find the answers OURSELVES. And Inshallah, we shall. :)

Thank you all.

Sury

aruna
12-20-2006, 09:53 AM
And thank YOU, Sury!