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View Full Version : My daughter's teachers view on terrorism. (It's scary!)



eldragon
12-08-2006, 12:43 AM
My daughter, who is in the 4th grade, has a teacher who returned from a trip that involved air travel last weekend. The woman told her students about her trip:


"A man wearing an anti-war (Iraq) jacket got on the plane with me. I was terrified that he would start attacking people, and try to crash the plane. I looked at my watch, and the time was 9:11."


The class was horrified.

My daughter told me this story yesterday, and I said: "Yes, except the man wearing the jacket was just using his free speech to denounce the war, which has nothing to do with 911, or plane crashing terrorists."


And this teacher has a four year college degree. She still thinks the Iraq war has something to do with 911.

Has this confusion gone on long enough?

sassandgroove
12-08-2006, 12:49 AM
What worries me is that she thinks her watch bearing the time 9:11 has anything to do with it. Her watch is not synchronized with anyone else's and time is arbitraty anyway.

Haggis
12-08-2006, 12:53 AM
What bothers me is that she's sharing her irrational fears with 4th graders.

billythrilly7th
12-08-2006, 12:54 AM
What bothers me is that she's sharing her irrational fears with 4th graders.

I agree.

Thank you.

eldragon
12-08-2006, 01:08 AM
When I was in school, in the 70's - teachers never talked about personal matters to students.

My teachers were mean, unfriendly, uninterested adults. They didn't wish you a merry Christmas, or ask you how your grandmother was. They didn't compliment you on a pretty dress, or make small talk in any way.

I really think it was better that way. We respected them more.

WildScribe
12-08-2006, 01:09 AM
*groan* This is why I plan to homeschool, thank you!

truelyana
12-08-2006, 01:10 AM
Very interesting momentum :) Nice of you to share

billythrilly7th
12-08-2006, 01:11 AM
When I was in school, in the 70's - teachers never talked about personal matters to students.

My teachers were mean, unfriendly, uninterested adults. They didn't wish you a merry Christmas, or ask you how your grandmother was. They didn't compliment you on a pretty dress, or make small talk in any way.

I really think it was better that way. We respected them more.

Being friendly, nice and interested vs. Respect is not mutually exclusive.

Or something like that.

What I mean is you can be respected as well as nice, friendly and interested.

If you have good interpersonal communication and people management skills.

Thank you.

WildScribe
12-08-2006, 01:12 AM
True, but most kids take advantage of the nice teachers nowadays, even if they are respectable. Am I making sense? No... didn't think so.

nicegrrl
12-08-2006, 01:13 AM
Does anyone on this board think our children (Mine and Billy's) would be better off if I homeschooled them?

WildScribe
12-08-2006, 01:15 AM
........















Just kidding. Probably so, but that's just my views on the school system.

JAlpha
12-08-2006, 01:17 AM
Pam, that's terrible.

My first bad experience with a teacher imposing his/her own values and or fears, paranoia etc. on my children, was back when my oldest son was in first grade. By the third week of school, his teacher taught all of the kids what TGIF meant. She was miserable in her job and was determined to teach her students how to be miserable too. I hold her personally responsible for the fact that my son is taking five years to earn a four year degree :D

WildScribe
12-08-2006, 01:18 AM
I had a teacher teach me that reading was boring. I ignored her, but my brother had the same teacher, and didn't read until my mom taught him when he was 8. Yes: EIGHT. Sad...

maestrowork
12-08-2006, 01:21 AM
My teachers were mean, unfriendly, uninterested adults.
I really think it was better that way. We respected them more.

I don't think so. The best teachers I had were all kind and encouraging but FAIR. They don't spew personal hatred or fear like this so-called teacher did, but they were not mean and unkind. That's just fear, not respect, that you had for yours.

Two of my teachers died last year. They were both wonderful, well-respected teachers who were very strict but fair. They had very high standards and wouldn't let us get away with bad behaviors or laziness. They were also our mentors and "friends" after schools. I have very fond memories of them and but I would never attribute my respect for them to meanness or uninterestingness. In fact, they were both very active, interesting individuals that earned our respect fair and square.

WildScribe
12-08-2006, 01:29 AM
My favorite teachers were always the ones that were strict and no-nonsense. In other words, the most hated teachers in school.

dclary
12-08-2006, 01:52 AM
My 4th grade teacher was Mrs. Wilms, and she was just about the nicest lady I ever knew.

My 6th grade teacher was my favorite. Mr. Zoller. Every friday was creative writing and storytelling. He'd read to us, either stories like Where the Red Fern Grows, or stories he'd written himself. Those stories were later published, and when I was an adult, I took the books to him to have autographed. I am proud to have been among his first readers.

billythrilly7th
12-08-2006, 01:54 AM
Kindergarten: Mrs. Cincotta. 4th Grade: Mrs. Prutting. 7-9th English:Mr. Dietrich.

God bless ya's.

whistlelock
12-08-2006, 01:55 AM
I just looked at the clock right now, and it was 3:55 pm.

Clearly Bush is out to get me.

dclary
12-08-2006, 01:56 AM
Only bush out to get you's made that you smoked his buds.

sassandgroove
12-08-2006, 02:17 AM
Man,it's 4:18 now, what does that mean?

nicegrrl
12-08-2006, 02:39 AM
My boyfriend is anti-public school. Im not. Im anti-private school. I wonder what will happen if we have kids.

robeiae
12-08-2006, 03:14 AM
I wonder what will happen if we have kids.
Armageddon?




:D

MattW
12-08-2006, 03:26 AM
Armageddon? So that's how a cinematic atrocity/Affleck vehicle is created!

SC Harrison
12-08-2006, 03:26 AM
I wonder what will happen if we have kids.

The news report would read, "The six month-old baby was last seen crawling speedily away with a napsack containing toys and a handful of diapers draped over his back."

dahmnait
12-08-2006, 03:34 AM
What is it with fourth grade teachers? I believe my daughter was in the fourth grade when the towers went down. She was devastated, not so much because of the tragedy; she was too young to fully understand what happened. She was devastated because she thought it was her fault.

A few weeks prior, one of her teachers has decided to share a horrible experience that happened on her (the teacher's) birthday. Apparently the teacher placed some emphasis on the day more than the event. Because of this, my daughter was convinced that something awful was going to happen on her birthday. She was frightened that people were going to die on her birthday. She thought it was her fault because it was her birthday. Of course, I didn't know this until after I turned on the TV that morning.

It took me a while to get the whole story, and I wish I remember what the teacher had talked about. I don't remember the detail, but I do remember that it was highly inappropriate. Granted, there was no way the teacher could predict what happened, but it should have never been told in the first place.

greglondon
12-08-2006, 04:28 AM
"A man wearing an anti-war (Iraq) jacket got on the plane with me. I was terrified that he would start attacking people, and try to crash the plane. I looked at my watch, and the time was 9:11."

Yes, people still believe Iraq
had something to do with 9/11, (they didn't)
had WMD's in March 2003, and (they don't)
would be a lot better off if we overthrew their bloody tyrant. (they aren't)

Some still believe that Bush didn't lie this country into invading Iraq too.

whaddyagonnado....

:Shrug:

billythrilly7th
12-08-2006, 04:35 AM
It just occurred to me. You're really angry about this whole Iraq thing.

Wow.

English Dave
12-08-2006, 04:36 AM
Yes, people still believe Iraq
had something to do with 9/11, (they didn't)
had WMD's in March 2003, and (they don't)
would be a lot better off if we overthrew their bloody tyrant. (they aren't)

Some still believe that Bush didn't lie this country into invading Iraq too.

whaddyagonnado....

:Shrug:


Stay on message Greg. There's a good chap. It's like going up to bat and the coach hands you a licorice stick.

eldragon
12-08-2006, 04:57 AM
Some still believe that Bush didn't lie this country into invading Iraq too.


And I probably live in the one area of the country where people actually still think Bush is a great president, a wonderful, God-fearing, patriotic man.

Kentuk
12-08-2006, 07:37 AM
Does anyone on this board think our children (Mine and Billy's) would be better off if I homeschooled them?

Most fish don't homeschool, most don't even mind their eggs so just do as Billy wants and procreate freely.

BottomlessCup
12-08-2006, 07:42 AM
When I was in eighth grade, my health teacher told us that the government should ship everyone with AIDS to a desert island so that they'll die off and the disease will be gone.

He almost got fired for it.

Mandy-Jane
12-08-2006, 09:00 AM
When I was in Year 7 (eighth grade?) Sister Christina told us that if we had sex before marriage, we were "playing with fire, girls!"

Yes it was a highly Catholic, all-girl school.

dclary
12-08-2006, 11:17 AM
When I was in eighth grade, my health teacher told us that the government should ship everyone with AIDS to a desert island so that they'll die off and the disease will be gone.

He almost got fired for it.

Which is too bad. It's a valid idea.

TeddyG
12-08-2006, 11:58 AM
I am going to say something that is going to be WILDLY UNPOPULAR. So before you guys decide to bite my head off, and rant at me, and tell me you will never ever listen to me again and I should be banned ... please read through to the end!

There is no doubt that the 4th grade teacher was totally wrong in what she did and how she did it.

That being said, I think it is a false assumption for any parent today to compare the reality of your schooling to that of your child's schooling.

I live in a country where children are taught from their first day in kindergarten and even before that - to never ever ever ever pick up, kick or even go near a package or even schoolbag lying by itself in the street, in a schoolyard or at a bus stop. No matter how innocent it looks. Because those little packages have a nasty way of blowing up.

In the US kids show up to school with guns and spray the school. Horrifying? Yes. Terrible? Yes. Nightmarish? Yes. Reality - YES!

Children must be prepared for these things in an intelligent manner. I do not mean you have to scare the daylights out of them, but teachers sooner or later have to be trained to explain these things to children in a manner they can understand - so they can protect themselves!

Even a forth grade child must know for instance, that if he or she sees a student carrying a gun, or even something that looks like a gun or bomb, they should make a straight run for those in charge. That is the reality.

We want to protect our children from the craziness out there. Teachers are sometimes real dumb asses. BUT our children have to be protected.

Let me give you an example:

The many times I took my children to the US to visit when they were young, every single time beforehand they got a real serious speech, to NEVER EVER leave our side. Especially in toy stores and in amusement parks. They were told to NEVER talk to strangers. Where they were brought up, here in Israel, kids are a lot more free (and thankfully child kidnapping is not a problem here). So it was hard for them to understand.

So one time with four kids I go with a really good friend of mine to Toys R Us. One of the bigger ones - which was like Heaven for the kids. And my friend says to the kids - "Ok. Go take whatever you want. Uncle Jay is paying."

The kids did not move. Not an inch. Jay was shocked. He thought they did not understand him. I explained to him that they were pain of real punishment if they ever left my eyesight in a public place. He laughed as then he did not have kids of his own.

Years later Jay visits me here in Israel. And in joking I ask, "So does your daughter run free in Toys R Us?" his answer "Not on your life."

Kids must be taught. Teachers and school are part of the process. And yes I am one of those who believes that "school should do the least amount of damage possible to the child". But I believe in it because it helps the child with social skills and gives them friends. They also have to learn in this day and age to protect themselves. Sad but true. They must be taught warning signs. They must be aware. Teachers, like it or not, are part of the process. They should be trained. They should be explained by psychologists and trained professionals exactly how to impart this CRITICAL knowledge to the children in their classes. Unfortunately we live in a world where no matter what side of the political fence you are on, left or right, no matter how much passion we may or may not have for those fighting for a "cause", - the fact remains that crazy people still walk into schools with guns and spray everyone, or terrorists have no compunction in trying to blow up kids.

That is painful. That is sad. That is a horrific comment on modern society.
And that dear people is REALITY.

(and now you can scream at me!)

mooncars
12-08-2006, 01:15 PM
I think that teacher's watch is permanently stuck at 4:20.

Hey teacher, leave them kids alone,
Rick

sthrnwriter
12-08-2006, 02:17 PM
The majority of my teachers were pretty nice except for one. My 5th grade reading gave me detention over not getting a progress report signed even though I hadn't broken any school rules. Of course, that incident was pretty trivial compared to what she did to my brother five years later. He got an attitude with her when she asked to check his folder, which was bad enough, but her response was not to send him to the office or give him detention. Instead, she grabbed and squeezed his arm hard enough to leave bruises and called him names in front of the whole class.

My mom called the school and complained about what happened, asking for her to be fired. They said they would investigate the situation or whatever, but his teacher felt it was best to take it upon herself to call my mom at work with some complaints and threats of her own. Let's just say the teacher doesn't work there anymore.

dahmnait
12-08-2006, 02:45 PM
I am going to say something that is going to be WILDLY UNPOPULAR. So before you guys decide to bite my head off, and rant at me, and tell me you will never ever listen to me again and I should be banned ... please read through to the end!

...

(and now you can scream at me!)
Oh Teddy, how can anyone scream at you after reading your eloquent reality check?

I think teaching reality about today's society is one thing. It is another to put your own fears and prejudices into the minds of children. There is a fine line, and unfortunately, this teacher crossed it. Luckily, for every one that crosses the line, there are many more that teach with balance.


(Do you think Uncle Jay would adopt me as his niece? A free run in Toys-R-Us... :D ... I'm still a kid at heart.)

TeddyG
12-08-2006, 03:25 PM
Uncle Jay walked out of that store with a bill I have never been allowed to forget! I told him - You said "Get whatever you want!" and by golly my kids are nothing if not obedient! :D

eldragon
12-08-2006, 04:19 PM
The many times I took my children to the US to visit when they were young, every single time beforehand they got a real serious speech, to NEVER EVER leave our side. Especially in toy stores and in amusement parks. They were told to NEVER talk to strangers. Where they were brought up, here in Israel, kids are a lot more free (and thankfully child kidnapping is not a problem here). So it was hard for them to understand

So, in general, you feel that the US is a more dangerous place for children than other countries, such as Israel?

TeddyG
12-08-2006, 04:28 PM
So, in general, you feel that the US is a more dangerous place for children than other countries, such as Israel?

Scratches head in perplexity. That was one help of an inference jump! I never said any such thing. I said that in the US parents are worried and rightfully so about young children being kidnapped etc. (Amber alert, Amber watches etc.) In Israel this is not a problem. But we sure as hell have other problems.

I never made such an inference. Each society and place has its own fears based upon the reality of the situation. In the US that is a prevelant one. In Israel there are others.

I think the US is a very safe place for children. I also think that reality of our modern day world must make us much more aware of our surrroundings and consequently as parents we must make our children aware in a sane and viable fashion.

(Please dont turn this into one of those Israel/World debates. I used that as a concrete example of something that happened - nothing else.)

eldragon
12-08-2006, 05:40 PM
No, Teddy, it was just a question about how you feel.


I'm very overprotective over my young daughter, and have never let her out of my sight, but am not overly concerned that she will be kidnapped at ToyRus. I don't know any statistics about that, but I can't imagine that children being abducted from toy stores is a common event.

I think visiting a foreign country makes one a little paranoid. It's the fear of the unknown. When we were in Yugoslavia earlier this year, I probably felt more uncomfortable than I would if I were in an English speaking country, or in a familiar place.

So what I am asking is whether or not America has a reputation for being unsafe? Yes, kids bring guns to school, but it's not a daily event. The media spotlights these whenever they happen, I guess, and people might get the feeling that it's more common, because of the media coverage.

I think the US goes to reasonable lengths to ensure the safety of children, by offering programs such as fingerprinting your children and basic safety awareness. When babies are born, they have to have wristbands that match their mothers, and many childrens entertainment venues such as pizza places, reguire that children and parents be stamped with numbers when they enter. When the family leaves, a person inspects the numbers on everyone's wrist, to make sure they match.



I'm am just wondering how it looks from your point of view.

SC Harrison
12-08-2006, 05:52 PM
I think the US is a very safe place for children. I also think that reality of our modern day world must make us much more aware of our surrroundings and consequently as parents we must make our children aware in a sane and viable fashion.



I agree. Each area has its own set of potentially dangerous situations, and children need specific warnings at an earlier age. Later on, when they have developed more capacity for processing information and placing it within their own hierarchy of survival needs, they can learn about issues that may concern them as adults.

I also agree that teachers need training on the proper way to impart information about potentially troubling subjects, and when those subjects should be discussed.

eldragon
12-08-2006, 06:04 PM
I also think that maybe we should stop worrying about what the crap-paid teachers say and how they "affect" our kids and take some parental responsibility to raise them ourselves, which includes making a few unpopular sacrifices like being home for them and not supporting gory, violent movies by going to see them when the kids are tucked in bed.

sorry, SC. I've got a few more suggestions but I'll try to keep the rant to a minimum. O.K. Rant over.

I've been a stay at home parent since 1999. I am returning to school fulltime in January, however. My kids are 9 and 18. We don't have TV in our house, at all. And my husband and I have never hired a babysitter to go out - not to a movie, or anyplace else.

Just so you know - there are some excellent parents out there.

SC Harrison
12-08-2006, 08:20 PM
I also think that maybe we should stop worrying about what the crap-paid teachers say and how they "affect" our kids and take some parental responsibility to raise them ourselves, which includes making a few unpopular sacrifices like being home for them and not supporting gory, violent movies by going to see them when the kids are tucked in bed.



When my oldest boy was just a toddler, we took him with us to a drive-in to see John Carpenter's version of The Thing. When the pseudo-dog began morphing into the freaky alien thing and started attacking the other dogs, my wife and I were sitting in the front seat and I said, "Oh my God! What the hell is that?"

Then a little voice from the back seat said, "Doggy?"

When I looked at the abject horror on Steven's face as he sat strapped in his car seat I felt like the worst father in the world.

He's still not very fond of dogs. :(

oswann
12-08-2006, 08:26 PM
When my oldest boy was just a toddler, we took him with us to a drive-in to see John Carpenter's version of The Thing. When the pseudo-dog began morphing into the freaky alien thing and started attacking the other dogs, my wife and I were sitting in the front seat and I said, "Oh my God! What the hell is that?"

Then a little voice from the back seat said, "Doggy?"

When I looked at the abject horror on Steven's face as he sat strapped in his car seat I felt like the worst father in the world.

He's still not very fond of dogs. :(

Yeah it happens. I had my four year old watching the news, before I could change channels, showing a guy shot in the chest in Iraq and a panel of journalists discussing the validity of showing such images when I heard him say "C'est pour du faux Papa n'est pas?" It's not real is it Dad?

"No it's not real, where's the damn remote."


Os.

sassandgroove
12-08-2006, 08:53 PM
No, Teddy, it was just a question about how you feel.


I'm very overprotective over my young daughter, and have never let her out of my sight, but am not overly concerned that she will be kidnapped at ToyRus. I don't know any statistics about that, but I can't imagine that children being abducted from toy stores is a common event.

I think visiting a foreign country makes one a little paranoid. It's the fear of the unknown. When we were in Yugoslavia earlier this year, I probably felt more uncomfortable than I would if I were in an English speaking country, or in a familiar place.

So what I am asking is whether or not America has a reputation for being unsafe? Yes, kids bring guns to school, but it's not a daily event. The media spotlights these whenever they happen, I guess, and people might get the feeling that it's more common, because of the media coverage.

I think the US goes to reasonable lengths to ensure the safety of children, by offering programs such as fingerprinting your children and basic safety awareness. When babies are born, they have to have wristbands that match their mothers, and many childrens entertainment venues such as pizza places, reguire that children and parents be stamped with numbers when they enter. When the family leaves, a person inspects the numbers on everyone's wrist, to make sure they match.



I'm am just wondering how it looks from your point of view.
Granted that most children are abducted by family members, I would not say the US is safe or kid friendly. ANd while they may be a few pizza places that do that hand stamp thing, I've never seen/been to one. (amd I've been all over this country.) It amazes me how lax parents are. It burns me up inside when I see a kid, sitting alone in a shopping cart, their parent in the next aisle, out of sight. It is as good as asking to have the kid abducted.

Teddy is right. Don't let the kids out of sight. It doesn't matter if you are familiar with the place or not. Actually, being that people relax in a familiar setting, that is probably the most dangerous setting.

sassandgroove
12-08-2006, 08:57 PM
I also think that maybe we should stop worrying about what the crap-paid teachers say and how they "affect" our kids and take some parental responsibility to raise them ourselves, which includes making a few unpopular sacrifices like being home for them and not supporting gory, violent movies by going to see them when the kids are tucked in bed.

sorry, SC. I've got a few more suggestions but I'll try to keep the rant to a minimum. O.K. Rant over.

While I do agree that parents should take responsibility, teachers do have a profound effect on children. and a lot goes on that even the most involved parent will miss. It's like all the things that go on at work that you don't mention to your spouse. It's not a secret, it just doesn't come up. Then there are things that teachers say or do that embarrass a child so they don't mention it. Therefore it is important to have good, properly trained teachers.

Kate Thornton
12-08-2006, 09:14 PM
Therefore it is important to have good, properly trained teachers.

This is so true, but it's important to pay them properly and treat the profession with the respect such a critical profession deserves. I don't think we do this in the US.

For one thing, we do not have uniform federal guidelines for our education system - everything is state and local. This system has been debated for years - I am on the side of uniform requirements and guidelines nation-wide.

There are many fine, highly-trained teachers who make a profoundly positive difference in childrens' lives. I applaud them. I wish we paid them and respected them.

And parents *do* need to be involved.

sassandgroove
12-08-2006, 09:18 PM
And parents *do* need to be involved.But my point was even involved parents won't know everything a teacher does or says. That's why it is imperitive to have good teachers.

Unique
12-08-2006, 09:28 PM
This is so true, but it's important to pay them properly and treat the profession with the respect such a critical profession deserves. I don't think we do this in the US.

For one thing, we do not have uniform federal guidelines for our education system - everything is state and local. This system has been debated for years - I am on the side of uniform requirements and guidelines nation-wide.

There are many fine, highly-trained teachers who make a profoundly positive difference in childrens' lives. I applaud them. I wish we paid them and respected them.

And parents *do* need to be involved.

And you see, Kate, even though I admire & respect you very much, I totally disagree that there should be Federal guidelines in education.

For the past 40 years the federal government has gotten more and more involved in education and the quality of education has decreased accordingly.

There are many fine minds that question the role of the federal government in education. There is no basis for it in the Constitution. I've been studying this issue lately and they have a valid point. Those things which are not specifically granted to the federal government belong to the state. Education is one of those things.

I do agree that teachers deserve more respect than they get; however, it's very difficult to grant that respect when there are so many in the field that do not deserve it. Perhaps they should do a better job of policing their own.

robeiae
12-08-2006, 09:33 PM
For the past 40 years the federal government has gotten more and more involved in education and the quality of education has decreased accordingly.

There are many fine minds that question the role of the federal government in education. There is no basis for it in the Constitution. I've been studying this issue lately and they have a valid point. Those things which are not specifically granted to the federal government belong to the state. Education is one of those things.Bing, bing, bing!

Moreover, federal guidelines and standards tend to lower actual standards to the lowest common denominator. Plus, the amount of waste that goes into creating and implementing such things is just insane.

Leave the feds out of education--it's an issue that directly affects people on a daily basis. The only way they can really have any say in the matter is if the controls and funding are with local and state agencies/officials.

sassandgroove
12-08-2006, 11:29 PM
I hadn't caught that. I agree. When I was young I thought we should have a more uniform curriculem, only because I moved a lot as a kid and would find my self ahead in one subject and behind in another at each new school. But As an adult, I see it differently.

Moreover, federal guidelines and standards tend to lower actual standards to the lowest common denominator.
I witnessed this first hand. When I was a freshman in HIghschool I took advanced classes. I worked hard to keep up my grades and met the challenges. In 10th grade, my school decided separating the classes hurt the other kids feelings (really) and that if they merged the classes, the advanced kids would bring up the rest of them. What happened was we sunk to the lowest common denominator and the advanced kids grew board and some of us acted up in class, some of us (ahem ... me) just didn't bother studying, etc., becuase why bother? I passed a test for a book I forgot to read becuase there was a list of events and we had to put them in the correct order. I guessed. It was such a debacle that the next year the school instated 'Honors' classes. I'm not sure how 'Honors' is better than 'Advanced', but I suspect they used a different name so they could say it was a new program and not look stupid for dismantling the advanced program to start with.

Also, when Iwas a senior I moved in the middle of the year from one state to another. I had the same basic schedule in both schools, but the AP classes I encountered in my new school kicked my butt. Our teachers at my old school had been holding our hands and walking us through everything. My first week at my new school, one teacher said that there was a term paper due at the end of the week that the other kids had had a month to work on, and she wanted me to do it, too. What?! I hated her. But you know what, I did it. I wondered why these kids seemed so much smarter. It wasn't that they were smarter than the kids at my old school. It was the kids at my old school had never been challenged. The girl that had the highest grade point average of the senior class at my old school, I used to think, was stuck up. I realize now she was quietly frustrated. I think she knew on some level that there was more and she wasn't getting it. People rise to the level of expectation set before them. Raise the bar, and children will rise to meet it. Lower the bar, and no one will rise above it.

sassandgroove
12-08-2006, 11:33 PM
Oh there is more. By leaving the governing of the schools to the states, you also get neat local programs. In NC, to graduate highschool, we all had to take hunter safety. I thought that was way cool. In Kansas, when I was in 6th grade, they took us all out to a field and taught about land conservation, and farming. That was nifty. The school i went to in Indiana had German classes along with the usual French and Spanish, becuase of the high German population in the area. When you instate uniform guidelines, you take away the wiggle room for things like that. IF the community has no say in the community school, they will feel powerless and defeated. Then the students will suffer.

greglondon
12-08-2006, 11:52 PM
For the past 40 years the federal government has gotten more and more involved in education and the quality of education has decreased accordingly.

fallacy of causuality.

for the past 40 years, schools have brought more and more
computers into the classrom and the quality of education has
decreased accordingly.

You can assert it's true, but the statement by itself does not
prove it in any way. Bush's "No Child Left Behind" has been
a travesty according to the few teachers I know and talk with.

But to assert that every involvment of the federal government
over the last 40 years has done nothing but pull schools down
rings about as true as stories of black UN helicopters that are
training to kidnap you and your family in the middle of the night.

It's convenient to tell stories of monsters under the bridge.
But it certainly doesn't get anyone closer to a real solution.

billythrilly7th
12-09-2006, 12:00 AM
You can assert it's true, but the statement by itself does not prove it in any way. Bush's "No Child Left Behind" has been
a travesty according to the few teachers I know and talk with.


I have a family full of teachers and many friends as well who teach.

They hate it. They loathe it.

I would to if I were a teacher.

Imagine being held accountable and having to teach and make sure scores are in an acceptable range so children don't graduate illiterate?!

How dare the government ask them to do that?!

With that said, I don't have the first clue as to how it's working, if it's working, why it's not working, etc... and I don't feel like looking it up.

Excellent bill though in theory, but maybe it's just like "Imagine."

Thank you.

Unique
12-09-2006, 12:14 AM
fallacy of causuality.

for the past 40 years, schools have brought more and more
computers into the classrom and the quality of education has
decreased accordingly.

But to assert that every involvment of the federal government
over the last 40 years has done nothing but pull schools down
rings about as true as stories of black UN helicopters that are
training to kidnap you and your family in the middle of the night.


Computers haven't been in schools for the past 40 years. Computers weren't common in my college classroom in 1994.

And I didn't say every involvement was detrimental; Title IX wasn't so bad.
Brown vs. the Board of Education was rather fine, IMO.
But we don't need to save 40 bad ideas to keep one good one. That's like treating every disease that makes you sick but ignoring the one that's killing you.

Problems in education have been multiplying since the mid 60's. So far the "answer" has been more and more federal intervention; the problem continues to worsen. The only way to figure out if they are the problem is to take them out of the equation.

If conditions improve, it won't prove that they were the problem but if the conditions improve - who cares? Getting them out can't hurt. Or if you think it can - tell me how - because honestly - I can't see how it could.

greglondon
12-09-2006, 12:54 AM
Computers weren't common in my college classroom in 1994. .

My school, which was a small school in a tiny farm town in the midwest,
brought in computers for grades 6 and up back in 1983 or so.
The year wasn't important. 40 years or 20 years wasn't important.
The point was it was an example of yet another fallacy of causation.
Just because computers were brought in and schools got worse after
the fact, doesn't mean the two events are linked.


And I didn't say every involvement was detrimental; .

All you said was 40 years of federal involvement caused schools to
progressively get worse. You didn't put in any qualifiers for
some things working and some things not working.


But we don't need to save 40 bad ideas to keep one good one. That's like treating every disease that makes you sick but ignoring the one that's killing you..

That's a lovely metaphor, but where are the 40 bad federal ideas
for every 1 good federal idea get proven as valid statistics?
Any neutral source that has those sorts of statistics?
If only 2 percent of federal school programs over the last 40 years
have been good and the remaining 98 percent have been bad,
then I think it ought to be easy to find a reputable source for that.

Otherwise, I'll simply note that 84.7 percent of all statistics are
made up on the spot, and this is one of those examples.


Problems in education have been multiplying since the mid 60's. So far the "answer" has been more and more federal intervention; the problem continues to worsen. The only way to figure out if they are the problem is to take them out of the equation. .

No, that is not the "only way to figure out if they are the problem".

One way to find out what the problem really is would be to apply
some good scientific methods to reporting the problem. Until
there is some hard numbers about what really is so, people are
just making stuff up about monsters under the bridge. And then
they'll try to fix the monster under the bridge.

A good application of the scientific method,
applied without prejudice, over a period of time,
and over a large population, might reveal some
of the problems. This could even be done immediately
by looking at historical data and finding trends.

but the assertion that 98% of federal school programs over the
last 40 years were failures, asserted without evidence,
aint gonne help find a solution.


If conditions improve, it won't prove that they were the problem but if the conditions improve - who cares? Getting them out can't hurt. Or if you think it can - tell me how

"Getting them out can't hurt" is an unproven assertion.

It is not proven because you haven't first proven what the
problem is. If part of the problem with the school system
is state funding, and the feds bring in money, then the
feds are actually helping solve some of the problem, and
taking them out will hurt. I don't know if that is true about
the economics, but it's an example. You can't talk about
solutions before you know what the problem is.

In this case, you probably need to know what the
problemS ARE, because there are probably several sources
that contribute to the problem of failing schools.

Unique
12-09-2006, 01:06 AM
Look, Greg, if I wanted a debating lesson from you, I'd ask for it.

Logic tells you if something isn't working you try something else.

What we've done in education is add more and more federal bureaucracy and there haven't been appreciable results. The opposite is to try less.

That's my only point besides the fact that the Constituion gives the issue of education to the states because it is not explicitly given to the Federal government.

greglondon
12-09-2006, 01:19 AM
It's not about "debate", it's about finding the cause to a problem
rather than blundering around for another 40 years while
kids get pushed through a system designed by people who
fear ghosts and goblins rather than stop and figure out
what teh problem is and how to solve it.

But if the federal government is the big bad boogeyman
in your mind, you'll thrash against them. But that isn't
neccessarily the problem. And after a couple decades
of scores going down even more, then someone will
decide that the problem is the color of classrooms
and declare war on paint.

There are an infinite number of ways to find windmills
to tilt. If you want to find the problem and solve it,
you need something a little more systematic.
That distinction has nothing to do with your
"debating lessons".

But no matter. It seems you've decided that the
federal government is the big bad boogeyman
to the school system and it seems apparent that
nothing will sway you from that.

Best wishes.

dclary
12-09-2006, 01:37 AM
Greg, you're one of a few people I know who do this when they messageboard...

Why do you place manual linefeeds in your posts?

Sheryl Nantus
12-09-2006, 01:41 AM
Computers haven't been in schools for the past 40 years. Computers weren't common in my college classroom in 1994.

I graduated high school in Toronto, Canada in 1980 and we were just getting comfortable with the HUGE floppy drives. The coolest geek had "Star Trek" with all the emoticons representing the ships and all.

I graduated college in 1984 in Oakville, Canada and we hadn't moved much past that point by then. IIRC the Vic20 was Da Bomb and we all dreamed of what we could do with over 20K of RAM...

ah, the good old days.

where were these computerized schools?

dclary
12-09-2006, 01:57 AM
Greg, you're one of a few people I know who do this when they messageboard...

Why do you place manual linefeeds in your posts?

Never mind. I'll reask this question on Tuesday.

dclary
12-09-2006, 01:58 AM
I graduated high school in Toronto, Canada in 1980 and we were just getting comfortable with the HUGE floppy drives. The coolest geek had "Star Trek" with all the emoticons representing the ships and all.

I graduated college in 1984 in Oakville, Canada and we hadn't moved much past that point by then. IIRC the Vic20 was Da Bomb and we all dreamed of what we could do with over 20K of RAM...

ah, the good old days.

where were these computerized schools?

I believe 84 was the year the commodore 64 came out. First computer to offer 64K ram for under $1000.

Celia Cyanide
12-09-2006, 01:58 AM
When I was in Year 7 (eighth grade?) Sister Christina told us that if we had sex before marriage, we were "playing with fire, girls!"

Oh, yeah, I'm sure that totally worked, and didn't make anyone curious at all!

Unique
12-09-2006, 02:00 AM
But no matter. It seems you've decided that the
federal government is the big bad boogeyman
to the school system and it seems apparent that
nothing will sway you from that.

Best wishes.

No. You've apparently decided for me that that's my position.

I never mentioned boogeymen, monsters, trolls under the bridge or anything else of the sort. You did.

My position is people should do what they're good at. Teachers teach. The government creates bureaucracy. They're good at it. However, bureaucracy doesn't do well in schools. It bloats the top while it pares the bottom. The money doesn't go where it should and it always has strings attached.

So, yes, I favor a smaller federal government. That is absolutely not the same thing as fearing the federal government as a boogeyman. Just in case you didn't know that.

dclary
12-09-2006, 02:02 AM
Well, blood and fire are too much for these
wounded hands to hold
and my nights of desire are calling me
back to the fold
so I'm calling you
I'm calling you
from ten thousand miles away
won't you wet my fire with your love...

baby


(forgive me if I have the lyrics wrong. This is how I know them and I'd hate to ruin my own interpretation of the song by knowing how it actually goes. I'm just trying to get some bonus points with Celia for being an Indigo Girls fan)

Celia Cyanide
12-09-2006, 02:05 AM
I listen to Blur and Bauhaus, not the indigo girls!

billythrilly7th
12-09-2006, 02:08 AM
I listen to Blur and Bauhaus, not the indigo girls!

Are you telling me you don't like "Closer to Fine?"

Everybody likes Closer to Fine.

Celia Cyanide
12-09-2006, 02:11 AM
Are you telling me you don't like "Closer to Fine?"

Everybody likes Closer to Fine.

Of course I like "Closer To Fine." I like "Come On Eileen," too, that doesn't mean I listen to Dexy's Midnight Runners.

dclary
12-09-2006, 02:12 AM
Of course I like "Closer To Fine." I like "Come On Eileen," too, that doesn't mean I listen to Dexy's Midnight Runners.

I don't even know who bauhaus is. It sounds like a beerock and beer place I used to eat at.

:(

Gary
12-09-2006, 02:22 AM
My daughter, who is in the 4th grade, has a teacher who returned from a trip that involved air travel last weekend. The woman told her students about her trip:


"A man wearing an anti-war (Iraq) jacket got on the plane with me. I was terrified that he would start attacking people, and try to crash the plane. I looked at my watch, and the time was 9:11."


The class was horrified.

My daughter told me this story yesterday, and I said: "Yes, except the man wearing the jacket was just using his free speech to denounce the war, which has nothing to do with 911, or plane crashing terrorists."


And this teacher has a four year college degree. She still thinks the Iraq war has something to do with 911.

Has this confusion gone on long enough?

It's nothing new. I remember when I started school in 1946 and the teacher kept telling us that Germany had something to do with FDR's war, but thankfully my parents clarified that it was the Japanese that bombed Pearl Harbor. I never could figure out why we declared war on Germany when they didn't do anything to us. I guess FDR was trying to expand the American Empire.

Celia Cyanide
12-09-2006, 02:25 AM
I think someone is missing the point...

eldragon
12-09-2006, 02:32 AM
And Gary, I remember going to be at night, scared that the Russians would attack me in my bed before morning.

Meanwhile, nobody discussed the Vietnam war.


With that said, I don't have the first clue as to how it's working, if it's working, why it's not working, etc... and I don't feel like looking it up.

Excellent bill though in theory, but maybe it's just like "Imagine."

Billy - I think it's been abandoned.

eldragon
12-09-2006, 02:39 AM
I think someone is missing the point...

yeah, I am.

I'm sick of government, and too little government. 30 days ago, I went to the health department for the first of a 3-part Hepatitis series of shots, the first shot was $10. Today - 30 days later - it was $40. "How can that be?" I asked the receptionist.
"Our government funding is over, you're lucky you got the first one so cheap. They are worth $100 each."

I want my cheap shots - heck - I need them to get into school! I mean, I'm 43 freakin years old - graduated from an American High school - born in America and all of that jive - you know I had to have immunizations to get into school! But since I don't have my records - from shots I had when I was BORN (1963,) I have to have them all over again, to get into school.

So, I'm told that lots of people have to re-take all their immunizations for reasons such as records being destroyed, etc. No wonder shots are so expensive! We are manufacturing 10 times more than we actually need!

The nurse said ,"if you got any of these diseases, they would kill you."

I said,"no, they wouldn't - because I was immunized against them."

I wanted to strangle that nurse.

billythrilly7th
12-09-2006, 02:45 AM
I want my cheap shots

I'd like a cheap BMW.

I'd like a lot of things that I can't afford.

That's America.

God bless it.

Gary
12-09-2006, 02:59 AM
I want my cheap shots - heck - I need them to get into school! I mean, I'm 43 freakin years old - graduated from an American High school - born in America and all of that jive - you know I had to have immunizations to get into school! But since I don't have my records - from shots I had when I was BORN (1963,) I have to have them all over again, to get into school.

So, I'm told that lots of people have to re-take all their immunizations for reasons such as records being destroyed, etc. No wonder shots are so expensive! We are manufacturing 10 times more than we actually need!


I have a record of every shot I ever had, going back to 1959 and at last count, having been career miltary, it was well over 100. They told me to keep my records, or risk having to take them all again. My shot records are as precious as my birth certificate.

Unique
12-09-2006, 03:13 AM
I have a record of every shot I ever had, going back to 1959 and at last count, having been career miltary, it was well over 100. They told me to keep my records, or risk having to take them all again. My shot records are as precious as my birth certificate.

Amen, brother. My shot record kept me from having to get reimmunized. And guess what - people who took the shots got the measles anyway (and I didn't) Go figure.

eldragon
12-09-2006, 03:20 AM
Billy - we'll trade you our BMW for a hep shot.

billythrilly7th
12-09-2006, 03:26 AM
Billy - we'll trade you our BMW for a hep shot.

Done.

I'll call my lawyer on Monday and have him draw up the agreement.

Thank you.
:)

Kate Thornton
12-09-2006, 04:02 AM
Amen, brother. My shot record kept me from having to get reimmunized. And guess what - people who took the shots got the measles anyway (and I didn't) Go figure.

Live vaccines work that way sometimes!



Unique, I have been offline for a bit -

But let me explain why I think national guidelines are a good thing specifically for teacher preparation:

I attended military schools as a child - the instruction was uniform and rigorous and when I hit a public school (high school) I was well- (maybe over-) prepared. Certification for military teachers (teachers at military-run schools overseas and here primarily for military dependents) was mandatory and uniform. All teachers met minimum standards, had at least a college education and teaching credential courses and had to prove they could teach. In addition, they were trained in first aid and many had other specialties like art, music, sports, etc.

As an adult, I spent 22 years in the Army as - you guessed it - an instructor. In addition to being a soldier and knowing my specialty through and through, I also went to "Army Teacher School" to be certified as an instructor (and later as a Senior Instructor) But I had to get updated every two years. My progress was tied to that of my students, too. (I taught Counterintelligence, including Constitutional Law, National Security Crimes, Geneva Conventions and various Intel-related classes. My students became Federal Agents upon graduation.)

Local input into childrens' education can be a very positive thing. And I agree that there are many fine local programs. I also am aware that States have the mandate for basic education. But I would like to see *all* states do a good job and I don't see that happening. I would like to see *all* teachers well-prepared and eager for a rewarding career and I don't see that happening, either.

When I got retired from the Army, I did not remain a teacher. I work for a Defense Contractor. The money makes that difference.

Unique
12-09-2006, 04:46 AM
That would be great, Kate. But there aren't enough people like that to have enough teachers like that nationwide. Even if there were, most of them would choose to do something else - because they can.

To my knowledge, no state, no county, no school district anywhere in this country had a policy that stated or implied their goal was to turn out ingnorant or uneducated students.

Really, how hard is it to teach someone to read, write, and do maths? To teach the basics of your country's history and some world history?

Twelve years isn't enough to learn everything I want to know. At some point a person has to take charge of their own education and decide what and how much they want to learn.

So how has it become incumbent on the schools to teach so much other *stuff*?

When the decisions are local, the population decides how much is enough. The parents have a lever to invoke changes. When you put the onus on Washington, you give bad local school boards something else to hide behind. It happens often enough; I'm sure you've seen it, too.

And in all fairness, don't you think military schools like those you attended are much more like private schools than public schools? Do teacher's unions have any influence in those jurisdictions? I wouldn't think they do.

MattW
12-09-2006, 06:09 AM
Property tax reform is the first hurdle to fixing our schools.

Edit - after kids wanting to learn, or parents instilling fear in them if they don't.

Bartholomew
12-09-2006, 11:30 AM
What bothers me is that she's sharing her irrational fears with 4th graders.

Quoted for truth.

Tracy
12-09-2006, 04:05 PM
And yes I am one of those who believes that "school should do the least amount of damage possible to the child". But I believe in it because it helps the child with social skills and gives them friends.

Teddy, home-educated children have TERRIFIC social skills and tons of friends. Just so you know.



I think the US goes to reasonable lengths to ensure the safety of children, by offering programs such as fingerprinting your children and basic safety awareness. When babies are born, they have to have wristbands that match their mothers, and many childrens entertainment venues such as pizza places, reguire that children and parents be stamped with numbers when they enter. When the family leaves, a person inspects the numbers on everyone's wrist, to make sure they match.

I think that the US is more dangerous for children than other countries. (I know Israel has its own situation, that's not comparing like-with-like - Israel's children are at risk from terrorists not perverts). I shivered when I read about Eldragon's list of safety measures - that they're even needed. In my country you wouldn't even consider such a thing. Certainly bad things happen to children here, but so, so few are the stranger-danger type. Our children are so much safer.

xhouseboy
12-09-2006, 05:07 PM
It's nothing new. I remember when I started school in 1946 and the teacher kept telling us that Germany had something to do with FDR's war, but thankfully my parents clarified that it was the Japanese that bombed Pearl Harbor. I never could figure out why we declared war on Germany when they didn't do anything to us. I guess FDR was trying to expand the American Empire.

Might have a been a response to Germany and Italy first declaring war on the US.

ETA: I know you're being ironic - so am I - just couldn't master the insertion of the appropriate smiley on this occasion, I never can.

Gary
12-09-2006, 05:35 PM
Might have a been a response to Germany and Italy first declaring war on the US.

ETA: I know you're being ironic - so am I - just couldn't master the insertion of the appropriate smiley on this occasion, I never can.

Yes, I was merely pointing out that when one bee stings you, you don't care what the other one sitting on your arm is thinking, doing, or has done in the past.

There is no question we goaded Germany prior to WWII. However, if FDR hadn't done so, Hitler would have defeated all of Europe and would have been at our throats sooner or later. It was a calculated risk that worked, but the result was millions of dead and countries destroyed. Those with selective memories can spin the facts of any war to support either a pro or con position.

Only history proves what was right or wrong and even that is sometimes reinvented. The recently revised history of WWII being taught in Japanese schools is a prime example. The nearly total lack of presenting WWII history in our high schools is even more upsetting.

Bravo
12-09-2006, 05:46 PM
Yes, I was merely pointing out that when one bee stings you, you don't care what the other one sitting on your arm is thinking, doing, or has done in the past.
....The nearly total lack of presenting WWII history in our high schools is even more upsetting.


those damn revisionist textbooks.

i also remember reading about hitler actively invading his neighbors before we entered.

hmph.

and i never read anything about us invading spain when we declared war on the axis. it was fascist too. and let's not forget russia.

sigh.

we probably did actually, but my grade school textbooks were written by leftist peaceniks.

theyre ruining everything we ever fought for.

:(

Gary
12-09-2006, 05:59 PM
those damn revisionist textbooks.

i also remember reading about hitler actively invading his neighbors before we entered.

hmph.

and i never read anything about us invading spain when we declared war on the axis. it was fascist too. and let's not forget russia.

sigh.

we probably did actually, but my grade school textbooks were written by leftist peaceniks.

theyre ruining everything we ever fought for.

:(

And don't forget our invasion of Iceland and Greenland during the big war. Why was that conveniently ignored?

dclary
12-09-2006, 06:01 PM
A fascinating thread of emails among California State University professors and administrators regarding changing the General Education requirements for history at the college level....

http://www.history.ucsb.edu/projects/ge/HistDisc03v.htm

robeiae
12-09-2006, 06:19 PM
Property tax reform is the first hurdle to fixing our schools.Correct. IMO, of course.

eldragon
12-09-2006, 06:39 PM
I think that the US is more dangerous for children than other countries. (I know Israel has its own situation, that's not comparing like-with-like - Israel's children are at risk from terrorists not perverts). I shivered when I read about Eldragon's list of safety measures - that they're even needed. In my country you wouldn't even consider such a thing. Certainly bad things happen to children here, but so, so few are the stranger-danger type. Our children are so much safer.

Don't be fooled by all the programs here, most child abductions aren't by strangers, but by parents who lost custody, etc.

And as far as the babies wearing matching wristbands in the hospitals - this is because of a few cases out of millions - and because hospital insurance creates guidelines for safety, to minimize lawsuits.

The US is a lawsuit happy country. When Jimmy goes to school and gets hurt - his parents might file a lawsuit against the school, the school board, the principal, the county, or any number of organizations.

If someone takes their kids to Chuck E Cheese and (I'm not sure this ever happened,) their child is abducted by someone - Chuck E Cheese, a major corporation, might be sued.

Now, the child fingerprinting, which is optional, is something that,I believe, was created by John Walsh, a man who did have a son kidnapped and murdered by a stranger - and John Walsh went out and created all kinds of programs to help when kids are missing.

But it's not like it happens all the time, it's just that it only has to happen once, and preventative measures are taken.

Last week, I watched a great movie, "Le Enfant," about a teenaged couple in France who had a baby and then sold it on the black market within a few hours. I realize this is just a movie - but one might assume that it's more common to sell babies on the black market in France - like it happens all the time there. I'm almost certain no underworld black market for infants exists here in the US - unless you count the money-grubbing attorneys and situations where people place newspaper ads for newborns and the expectant mother answers - they pay the expenses and who knows what else, in desperation for an infant. (To avoid the years of waiting for adoption via the tradation method.)

And then there are movies about child prostitution in India - or children being raised in brothels there - but that doesn't exist in the US - and I'm sure it's not common in India, ether.

And the movie," Turtles Can Fly," might bring one to suspect that all Kurd children are orphans who live entirely without adult supervision.

We also have the names, addresses and pictures of local pedophiles or in fact, anyone convicted of a sexual crime - available for anyone to check their neighborhood or anywhere else in the US. These are just for awareness.

eldragon
12-09-2006, 07:52 PM
When, Bird of Prey?


I would suspect food poisoning, but murder?

dclary
12-09-2006, 11:08 PM
There was that incident when the Ninos del Olvera (a gang of 5-year olds in east LA) drowned another gang member from the Baby Clowns Crips in the Torrance Chuck E. Cheese Big Bouncy Ball House that one time.

eldragon
12-10-2006, 01:17 AM
Another reason not to take my kids there, as if bad pizza and hyperactive children running around weren't enough.

sassandgroove
12-12-2006, 02:29 AM
Teddy, home-educated children have TERRIFIC social skills and tons of friends. Just so you know.


Um...do you have evidence to back up this claim?

I know people, some now adults, that attended home school. I also taught preschool for 2 years. I believe some students are better suited to home schooling than others. I have a friend who was ahead acedemically but behind socially, and her parents homeschooled her for a few years. Then she went to performing arts highschool, where she fit in quite well. They did that so she wouldn't get bored and so she could 'catch up.' I encountered one child while I taught SUnday School who was homeschooled, and had no skills whatsoever to deal with her fellow Sunday School Students. Her sister did fine, but she was at a loss. I think for her, home schooling was a detriment becuase it allowed her to remain a recluse. I think it depends on the child, and of course the parent/ home school teacher. HOme schooling is not an across the board answer just as public schools or private schools are not.

lilyteague
12-13-2006, 09:38 AM
I think a lot of parents are addressing the homeschooling/social debate right now. There are many more parents forming homeschooling groups and co-ops. I know that we plan to take advantage of many social activities when our daughter is the appropriate age (sports, jr. rodeo, etc.), while we homeschool. Homeschooling has really grown from the keeping your kids away from society. Almost all of my friends homeschool their children. In general, they are the brightest and most articulate children you will ever meet. While I once thought that most homeschooled children were socially behind, after knowing several families that homeschool, I have completely changed my mind.

But it probably does depend on the child, and the parents as well. There are quite a few socially ackward children in public schools too.

KimJo
12-13-2006, 04:26 PM
Homeschooling would have been a huge problem for me growing up; I had poor social skills as it was and would never have managed to make friends if I hadn't been around other kids on a daily basis. My younger daughter, who has Asperger's, has poor social skills as well because of the Asperger's, but I think she would benefit from homeschooling because she becomes bored in class when she finishes her work and has to wait ten or fifteen minutes for the rest of the class to catch up. There's a very active homeschooling co-op in my area, so if I ever did homeschool her she'd have other opportunities for interaction.

People a few pages ago were giving their opinions of "nice" teachers, and I wanted to put in my two cents worth on that (I hadn't read this thread before). I am one of the "nice" teachers. When I taught full time special education, I had kids who weren't even enrolled in special ed coming to visit my classroom because they knew I was someone who genuinely liked and respected them, and they liked and respected me in return. One year, a boy who constantly swore at teachers, walked out of classrooms, and was well on his way to being a criminal came into my room to hide from the principal. I told him he had to leave; naturally he refused, and after a few minutes I gave up because I had a class to teach. He was quiet while I taught and didn't disrupt anything. I should have called the principal to let him know where he was, but the phone in my room wasn't working. So I saw her outside the door a couple minutes later and signalled her to come in. When she saw the boy, she asked why I hadn't let her know he was there; apparently she and a couple other teachers had been looking for him. Before I could answer, this boy, who despised all teachers on general principle, said, "Don't give Mrs. R a hard time. I came in here and I refused to leave when she asked. So leave her alone." Not that he should have disrespected the principal, but for this boy to stick up for me meant I had reached him, something no one else had ever done. I worked in that school for three years, that year full-time and then two as a substitute (well, one and a half), and gained the reputation of reaching the kids who didn't want to be reached, and of almost never having to give detentions or send kids to the vice principal, because I almost never had behavior problems in my classes. And I did it by being nice, by talking to the kids about their lives and sharing bits and pieces of mine with them, and letting them know I valued them as people. When I moved last week, I unfortunately moved too far away to continue working at that school; I'm going to miss those kids. Admittedly there are nice teachers who are taken advantage of, but some of us are nice and still get respect and appropriate behavior from our students.

sellthepharm
12-14-2006, 09:23 AM
I think a lot of parents are addressing the homeschooling/social debate right now. There are many more parents forming homeschooling groups and co-ops. I know that we plan to take advantage of many social activities when our daughter is the appropriate age (sports, jr. rodeo, etc.), while we homeschool. Homeschooling has really grown from the keeping your kids away from society. Almost all of my friends homeschool their children. In general, they are the brightest and most articulate children you will ever meet. While I once thought that most homeschooled children were socially behind, after knowing several families that homeschool, I have completely changed my mind.

But it probably does depend on the child, and the parents as well. There are quite a few socially ackward children in public schools too.

I agree entirely. Homeschooling has come a long way in a relatively short amount of time, especially with regard to parental organization by way of the aforementioned homeschooling groups and co-ops. And yet the perception that homeschooled children have a greater likelihood of being socially stunted, for lack of a better term, persists.

Our relatively small town of 25,000 has a large and thriving homeschooling community; many of these kids meet in our church once or twice a week for music and Spanish lessons. I've had the pleasure of meeting and talking with several of these children and they are some of the most well-mannered and polite kids around. Of course, this is not to say that there are not well-mannered and polite kids in public school but I do believe that the stigma of modern homeschooled kids being socially deficient is largely undeserved, especially in areas where the parents have actively pooled resources and organized their efforts.

blacbird
12-14-2006, 09:38 AM
What worries me is that she thinks her watch bearing the time 9:11 has anything to do with it. Her watch is not synchronized with anyone else's and time is arbitraty anyway.

Chances are she also consulted her horoscope that morning, and found something in the positions of Jupiter and Saturn relative to the constellation Scorpio that portended doom and disaster. A college degree isn't an antidote for that kind of belief system.

caw

lilyteague
12-14-2006, 10:17 AM
I think she would benefit from homeschooling because she becomes bored in class when she finishes her work and has to wait ten or fifteen minutes for the rest of the class to catch up.

I've been there. It is hard. Homeschooling might be a way to challenge her. While I had a few great teachers in high school that truly understood how fast I moved, they were the exception. I even had teachers that seemed to resent me. More often than not, I was simply ignored and left to my own.