How much did you earn for the sale of your first novel?

[SirTimberWolf]

Hello,

Tasteless subject to some I'm sure but more and more I'm finding myself curious as to how much the 'average' (or in my case, below average) writer makes on their first novel sale. I understand it's a case by case basis thing but I was wondering if someone would be kind enough to put up a roundabout figure- I'm kind of loosing motivation and wondering if it'll all be 'worth it' in the end or if I should just shelve my project or give it away.
I love writing, I love my story and everything about it but sometimes I wonder if it'll wind up being a 'hey look what I did, I don't have anything to show for it but I wrote a book!' and that just really scares me. . . :P I'm not looking to make millions of dollars or anything but getting stuck with something like a $30 pay off is kind of frightening. (Just published an article on AC, kind of brought me here. :X)
Anyway, thank yiou if you choose to disclose or just reply!
-Johnathan

[veinglory]

First novel, about $200, second, about $1500. At least it's moving up, eh?

[victoriastrauss]

My first advance, back in the 1980's, was $2,500. The average advance for a first-timer these days ($5,000-10,000) isn't a whole lot more--at any rate, it certainly hasn't kept pace with inflation. Most professional writers I know are not self-supporting with their writing, and the few who are work extremely hard (and often have to supplement their writing income with related work). It's not the biz to go into if you want to make money.

- Victoria

[jchines]

For Goblin Quest:

Small press advance -- $1000
Picked up by larger press as a mass market -- $4000
Foreign sales of the same title -- about $4000 - $5000

Tobias Buckell did a survey of first time advances that you might be interested in. His results are posted at http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/wordpress/?p=1695

[willietheshakes]

Before I Wake has, so far, earned into the low six figures. Option for film rights and further foreign rights sales pending.

[Shadow_Ferret]

It's not the biz to go into if you want to make money.

- Victoria

But it'll be a nice retirement income, no?

[YouFunnyToo]

Close to half a million in advance for NA hardcover and trade paper rights. The book has not hit the shelves yet. This, alas, is quite unusual.

[badducky]

I think of the money like this:

"The Advance" looks like money, smells like money, and works like money. But, it's not money. It's an "Advance" on money.

The money comes from the commission of sales that will reflect the quality of your writing, and the market's appreciation. Your advance reflects, as well, the publisher's magical, mystical projections of what that number will be someday. But, that's business voodoo, not money.

Until you start seeing royalty checks, it's best not to think of anything as "Money", or even think about "Money" at all.

This isn't the game to go into for the "Money".

[Shadow_Ferret]

Why isn't it "money?" Do I have to return it? Isn't it mine?

This isn't the game to go into for the "Money".

Guess somebody should have told that to Stephen King, Koontz, Dan Brown, Clive Cussler, Patterson, Kellerman, DeMille, et al.

[SpookyWriter]

My first advance, back in the 1980's, was $2,500. The average advance for a first-timer these days ($5,000-10,000) isn't a whole lot more--at any rate, it certainly hasn't kept pace with inflation. Most professional writers I know are not self-supporting with their writing, and the few who are work extremely hard (and often have to supplement their writing income with related work). It's not the biz to go into if you want to make money.

- VictoriaSo why bother in the first place? Is the goal of publication to stoke our vanity or to obtain a temporary rush from seeing our works in print. I rather think that making money is equally important and that each success will lead to more readership which leads (in theory) to more money for the author.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Exactly WHAT business should one go into to be guaranteed millions of dollars? I don't think there is one. It's up to you and your talent to see how far you succeed.

To say writing isn't the profession to go into to make money is to deny that any writers make money at it and that clearly isn't the case. There are millionaire writers. There are well-off writers.

Writing is like any career. You can either succeed or not. It takes talent, hard work, and luck.

But to me, saying it isn't the career to go into to make money sounds like sour grapes.

[SpookyWriter]

There are thousands of car salesmen/women who just barely earn the minimum each month to survive. Not all sales people will make big bucks, but there are a number who do because they have the talent, drive, and skills necessary to make good money. I believe many sales positions (i.e. real estate, cars, jewelery, etc.) have the same income pyramid as the writing profession. Yes, there are lots of writers who make little or no money each month from their work. Then again there are also a handful (or maybe hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands) who do succeed and make a decent, if not good, living at writing.

I echo what Shadow_Ferret said about treating this as a profession or career with the objectivity to make money. But like the car salesperson not everyone will have a successful career.

[willietheshakes]

"The Advance" looks like money, smells like money, and works like money. But, it's not money. It's an "Advance" on money.



Nah, the advance IS money. In many, many cases, it's the ONLY money.

[badducky]

To say writing isn't the profession to go into to make money is to deny that any writers make money at it and that clearly isn't the case. There are millionaire writers. There are well-off writers.

Writing is like any career. You can either succeed or not. It takes talent, hard work, and luck.

But to me, saying it isn't the career to go into to make money sounds like sour grapes.

Even the wealthy ones will tell you the same thing we are saying. Don't go into this job for the money. It's not sour grapes.

If I sold film rights tomorrow for seven figures, and signed massive book deals the next day and got whisked off to Oprah's couch the day after that, I'd still say the same thing.

Instead of worrying about "Money", worry about "Audience" and "Craft".

Just because you can make money as a doctor -- lots of it -- is no reason to be a doctor. Thinking that way will not lead to success as a doctor. Frankly, you probably won't finish med school with such a crazy notion.

It isn't that you can't make money writing. It's that thinking that way will only put one more obstacle in your path.

[badducky]

Nah, the advance IS money. In many, many cases, it's the ONLY money.

No. It's still just an "Advance" on your money. That's why they call it an "Advance".

[Shadow_Ferret]

It isn't that you can't make money writing. It's that thinking that way will only put one more obstacle in your path.
I don't believe that. They are careers. Doctor. Writer. Lawyer. Indian Chief. And the object of a career is to make money. Period.

No one goes into a career thinking, "I'll never make money at this, but what the hey?" Even doctors, lawyers, dentists, go into it thinking they'll make money. The percentage that is in it for the altruistic "good of mankind" aspect of it is probably very small.

It's a job and people expect to make money.

[willietheshakes]

No. It's still just an "Advance" on your money. That's why they call it an "Advance".

Can I put the cheque in the bank? Yes.
Can I spend it? Yes.
Do I have to give it back if I don't earn it out? No.

How, again, is it not money?

[jchines]

No. It's still just an "Advance" on your money. That's why they call it an "Advance".

It's an advance against royalties. It's also money. My advance came in the form of a check, which was deposited and put toward the mortgage and various other bills ... all of which would be quite cranky if I paid them in something other than money.

It's true that not all books earn out their advance, but you keep the money either way. You just won't see any additional money from royalties until you earn out that advance.

[MajorDrums]

"advance" and "loan" are two different things...right?:Shrug:

[badducky]

I never said it didn't operate like money.

I'm just saying, I don't think about it like money. The true value of a book (ferret's notion of wealth and happiness) occurs -- regardless of the size of the advance -- on the back end, where royalties start arriving and reprints are occurring and books stay in print or not. Until then, it's only an advance.

[jchines]

"advance" and "loan" are two different things...right?:Shrug:

Right. The advance is yours. You keep it. You do not pay it back, even if 90% of your books get returned and the publisher takes a huge loss.

Of course, if that happens, don't expect a big advance for your next book... But you keep the advance on this one.

[Shadow_Ferret]

(ferret's notion of wealth and happiness)

Not sure how you can take what I'm arguing, that you CAN make money at writing, it's a career like any other, and equate that with "I'm going to make millions."

Those are two radically different propositions. Not everyone can make millions no matter WHAT career they go into. That's a province for a select, special few.

But to say that one shouldn't go into writing if you expect to make money (which was what you were saying) is absurd.

If I don't have the talent to be a lawyer, I'll be a very poor lawyer. If I don't have the talent to be a doctor, I'll be a very unsuccessful doctor. The same goes with writing. If I don't have the talent I won't make money at it, but if I do have talent, the possibilities are endless.

[Bubastes]

I don't believe that. They are careers. Doctor. Writer. Lawyer. Indian Chief. And the object of a career is to make money. Period.

No one goes into a career thinking, "I'll never make money at this, but what the hey?" Even doctors, lawyers, dentists, go into it thinking they'll make money. The percentage that is in it for the altruistic "good of mankind" aspect of it is probably very small.

It's a job and people expect to make money.

The key, at least for me, is that making money as a lawyer (my day job) is more of a sure thing than making money as a writer. That's why I say I don't write just for money -- I can make easier, faster money doing other things. I just wouldn't enjoy it as much (or at all). I still treat my writing like a business, but I also recognize it as a higher-risk business proposition than a secure law firm job with benefits.

[Begbie]

I was a wealthy lawyer for six years; now I am a struggling writer. I'm much happier now.

[Shadow_Ferret]

True. But I'd make an awful lawyer. I'm not a good orator. I hate public speaking. I don't have a good memory. I hate paperwork. I look awful in three piece suits. And wingtips pinch my feet. That wouldn't be a good career move for me. I wouldn't make money at it.

But I would never dream of telling other people, don't become a lawyer, there's no money in it.

Just as I would never dream of discouraging someone from becoming a writer by saying, "there's no money in it."

[SpookyWriter]

Just because you can make money as a doctor -- lots of it -- is no reason to be a doctor. Thinking that way will not lead to success as a doctor. Frankly, you probably won't finish med school with such a crazy notion.
That's too easy a cop out because we all know doctors would never say they chose their profession simply for the money. Yeah, right. ;)

I graduated college in a profession where I knew I would make money for twenty or thirty years. I didn't go to college for idealism, but to earn a good income. I've talked to a few doctors who chose medicine because the money is really good. I'm sure if you did a google search on this topic you'll find a few sources that will dis-spell the myth that doctors only become doctors for higher reasoning.

So why shouldn't we treat writing as a profession or career where money is as important as art?

[Bubastes]

True. But I'd make an awful lawyer. I'm not a good orator. I hate public speaking. I don't have a good memory. I hate paperwork. I look awful in three piece suits. And wingtips pinch my feet. That wouldn't be a good career move for me. I wouldn't make money at it.

But I would never dream of telling other people, don't become a lawyer, there's no money in it.

Just as I would never dream of discouraging someone from becoming a writer by saying, "there's no money in it."

I don't consider it discouragement. I consider it a reality check. I tell aspiring lawyers the benefits and pitfalls of their chosen profession as well so they can make educated decisions (such as the fact that even though the money may seem good, the long hours may not be worth it). That way, they go in with their eyes open.

"Don't quit the day job" was some of the most valuable writing advice I've received (along with BIC). It helped redirect my energies away from pipe dreams toward the tough, rewarding work of grounding my writing career in reality. Knowing that it's hard to earn money from writing helps me make rational decisions. You can't run a business without anticipating the risks and planning accordingly. Ignoring the money factor in writing is, IMO, equivalent to being an ostrich.

[illiterwrite]

I know quite a few doctors who went into it for the money, actually.

In Canada, there's certainly a huge belief that you won't make a lot of money by writing, except for a select few (although willietheshakes may have proven me wrong, if he's already made six figures with his book. ;) )

[Dru]

The last I'd heard for annual income for mid-top list authors was between 20-30k per year for fiction writers, with at least one book coming out per year.

The up-end of the scale is fabulous, but it is hardly sour grapes to point out that unless you are very lucky you won't be seeing six figures a year on an annual basis by writing.

[The U.S. Bureau of labor stats www.bls.gov: (includes non-fiction writers, ad copy, etc.)

Percentile wage estimates for this occupation:
Percentile 10% 25% 50% (mean) 75% 90%
Hourly Wage $11.69 $16.04 $22.32 $31.13 $43.24
Annual Wage $24,320 $33,360 $46,420 $64,750 $89,940]

[willietheshakes]

Well, it wasn't all in Canada. Though I do pay taxes on all of it here.

[SpookyWriter]

The last I'd heard for annual income for mid-top list authors was between 20-30k per year for fiction writers, with at least one book coming out per year.Is that enough to live on, support a family, or wouldn't being a shoe salesman give a better quality of life? So why bother to write if it's not a viable career choice?

[Bubastes]

Is that enough to live on, support a family, or wouldn't being a shoe salesman give a better quality of life? So why bother to write if it's not a viable career choice?

Um, because money isn't the only reason to do something? I learned this the hard way.

If money were all that mattered, we would all be investment bankers and management consultants.

[Shadow_Ferret]

The last I'd heard for annual income for mid-top list authors was between 20-30k per year for fiction writers, with at least one book coming out per year.

The up-end of the scale is fabulous, but it is hardly sour grapes to point out that unless you are very lucky you won't be seeing six figures a year on an annual basis by writing.



Wow. $20-30K a year? That's fantastic! Who says there's no money in it? Sheesh. I'd be tremendously happy making that much.

[badducky]

I've worked with a few doctors in it for the money...

And you would not want these soulless drones working on you because they make decisions about procedures and their hours based heavily on the income they make with such matters. They also tend to have the bedside manner of car-salesmen or armed thugs.

Some procedures are more expensive than others, after all, and can lead to quite similar results. Some scheduling techniques produce more profit than others, but lead to more hassles for patients.

Dentists, too, can be quite scary.

However, these soulless automatons I've known are the exception, not the rule. Most of the doctors I've worked with chose the profession because of the ability to do something truly valuable with their time and energy. They chose "Medicine" instead of "Law" because of their affinity for the sciences.

Oddly enough, these doctors and dentists were far and away more successful than the soulless automatons.

But, this is all anecdotal evidence, inadmissable in a court of law.

The money comes from people liking your book and giving you money for your book. So, stressing the money part isn't going to lead to money. Stressing the craft, and the desires of your audience is what matters.

[scarletpeaches]

Is that enough to live on, support a family, or wouldn't being a shoe salesman give a better quality of life? So why bother to write if it's not a viable career choice?

Oh dear god. I don't know where to begin with this one.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Um, because money isn't the only reason to do something? I learned that the hard way.

If money was all that mattered, we would all be investment bankers and management consultants.

No. Again. I'd have to be good at it. I know nothing about investments and I'm awful with math.

Not sure what hard way you mean, but to me money is the reason to do something. I don't make money doing what I hate, what's wrong with trying to make money at something I do like?

The money comes from people liking your book and giving you money for your book. So, stressing the money part isn't going to lead to money. Stressing the craft, and the desires of your audience is what matters.

But if you intend to BE successful and MAKE money wouldn't these things (stressing the craft, desires of the audience) be the things you'd work on to BECOME successful? C'mon. One doesn't go into a profession just seeing dollar signs no matter what. You have to LEARN something about the career to be successful.

No one, at least not Spooky and I, are stressing just the money part. We understand fully that writing requires hard work and dedication.

[Dru]

Why does any artist create?

Art in our society, outside of very fringe examples, is hardly ever valued with the time and effort put into the piece(s).

Yet, tens - hundreds of thousands of people create and perform art each year anyways.

I think what Victoria was trying to say is that money cannot be your primary motivator. And I believe that stands true for any art. Find what drives you to create. Money might even be a part of it, or it might not.

and back on topic: I'd personally love to hear more of what first time authors have to say and if they earned out or not.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Hello,

Tasteless subject to some I'm sure but more and more I'm finding myself curious as to how much the 'average' (or in my case, below average) writer makes on their first novel sale. I understand it's a case by case basis thing but I was wondering if someone would be kind enough to put up a roundabout figure- I'm kind of loosing motivation and wondering if it'll all be 'worth it' in the end or if I should just shelve my project or give it away.
I love writing, I love my story and everything about it but sometimes I wonder if it'll wind up being a 'hey look what I did, I don't have anything to show for it but I wrote a book!' and that just really scares me. . . :P I'm not looking to make millions of dollars or anything but getting stuck with something like a $30 pay off is kind of frightening. (Just published an article on AC, kind of brought me here. :X)
Anyway, thank yiou if you choose to disclose or just reply!
-Johnathan


My first novel went to a scam company, so though I did get an advance, it was not much at all.

For those who are wondering, my advance was a crisp one dollar bill.

Like I said, a scam. I look forward to getting a novel published by a legitimate company in a few years. Then I might be able to give some better amounts.

[Zolah]

I don't believe that. They are careers. Doctor. Writer. Lawyer. Indian Chief. And the object of a career is to make money. Period.

If the only reason to go into any career was to make money, there'd be a lot more failed businesses and a lot more suicides. Talk to any social worker, any priest, any teacher, any craftsman, any artist, any poet, any farmer - and they'll tell you that the work is what matters, not the remuneration (and that's a good thing because most people don't get rich doing their job, no matter how good they are at it). The reason to choose a career is because you care passionately about that area of work, love doing it, have a natural affinity for it, feel that you're doing something that's worthwhile...in fact there are a million and one good reasons to become a lawyer, a doctor or a writer, but 'Ha ha ha, I'm gonna make big bucks' is about the stupidest, and one that that's least likely to lead to success.

Getting my first advance was really great - it gave me a feeling of security and happiness. But I jumped around my living room for a half hour after seeing the rough of the front-cover of my novel - the rush of joy excitement was amazing, and I can still stand and look at the proof (which is framed and on the wall) for about ten minutes at a time and just smile. Money doesn't do that for the soul.

Besides which, 'this isn't the biz to make money' is a pure statement of fact. You're less likely to get rich or even well off writing than in any of the other careers that you've mentioned. Less than 10% of writers are self-supporting. If your only reason for writing is because you believe you'll be making pots of cash like J K Rowling and Stephen King, I'd be willing to bet you my house (including my little fuzzy kitty-cats) that you'll be disappointed. Sorry, but for about 90% of writers - that IS the writing life.

P.S. I made £4000 (that's pounds sterling) on my first novel. £5000 on the second. That's advance only - and not counting foreign rights sales. Each one took a year to write (holding down another part time job to pay the bills). The taxman takes about 20%, and expenses wipe out another 25%. You do the maths.

[Bubastes]

No. Again. I'd have to be good at it. I know nothing about investments and I'm awful with math.

Not sure what hard way you mean, but to me money is the reason to do something. I don't make money doing what I hate, what's wrong with trying to make money at something I do like?

I've made plenty of money doing work I hate (yes, it is possible to learn enough to be good at something you hate and have no aptitude for if you put in the effort, like anything else). There's nothing wrong with making money doing something you like, but sometimes the money from the "love" job is much harder to come by.

It's all a question of what you're willing to put up with and how much money you want in exchange for it. I like having money, so I'm willing to put up with a lot of discomfort to get it. That's just me. There are no simple answers.

I will say, though, that receiving checks for my writing was really soul-satisfying. I didn't anticipate how good it would feel to be paid for something I enjoy doing!

[SpookyWriter]

Um, because money isn't the only reason to do something? I learned this the hard way.

If money were all that mattered, we would all be investment bankers and management consultants.Aren't we? Seriously though, I have always treated my writing as art without thinking of making money from it. Rather silly notion since why bother to write if you aren't going to get paid? Aren't writing credits only considered when you're paid? What happens to the writers who truely enjoy their craft and don't submit to paying markets? Or what about artists who enjoy entertaining people but don't consider money an issue because they already have a source of income?

[illiterwrite]

I don't write for money. I never have. Publication changes that slightly -- now I do expect to be paid. But I still don't write for money. I write because I need to.

As for doctors who are in it for money lacking souls, you're forgetting there are different kinds of doctors. The ones I write for are cosmetic surgeons, and they make oodles and oodles of money.

[CrankItTo11]

Well said, Zolah. People are motivated by different things. For me, money is not a huge motivator. Obviously, I need a roof over my head and I need my husband and cat to be fed... but if those things are in place, money is not a motivator.

I actually turned down a job promotion which would have increased my salary by a significant figure. I turned it down because I wanted more time to write (which is what I love). In fact, I only work part time now. It's a financial sacrifice, but I have less stress and I can spend more time with my family.

I echo much of what has already been written... you should write because you love the craft. Money... that's gravy.

[blackbird]

This thread reminds me of the old infomercial that Sally Struthers used to do on late night TV (for some career school; can't remember the name of it) but it was the one with the tagline, "Do you want to make more money? Of course; we all do!"

If someone said, do you hope to be as wealthy as Stephen King or Anne Rice, I would say of course! What writer would argue against that kind of success?

But people keep talking about the real reason for being a writer, especially a published one. For me, it's the fact that I have stories to tell and that I want to share my stories with as many people as possible-millions, if I can.
Am I going to take the money? You bet. But it isn't first and foremost about the money, at least not for me. It's about people reading and enjoying my work. It's knowing that something that sprouted as a seedling in my own little brain has connected with people, and perhaps has made some difference. That, for me, is what publication is all about. The money is just the proverbial icing on the cake.

[SpookyWriter]

As for doctors who are in it for money lacking souls, you're forgetting there are different kinds of doctors. The ones I write for are cosmetic surgeons, and they make oodles and oodles of money.Sorry, but I so totally disagree. Compassionate people do require money to help themselves and others. Doctors who enter medicine for financial reasons aren't stupid. Have you ever considered the cost of being a doctor? Malpractice insurance is very expensive. Doctors work crazy hours and have a high rate of divorce. So if you go into medicine or writing with an altruistic view of reality then real life will slap you awake very quickly.

[aghast]

money is not everything but readership means something and most often $ means readership and means your work means a lot to others either as an art or as entertainment and thats good enough for writers - i think its foolish to say i only write for the art but its equally silly to think you can strike it rich with writing so there has to be some balance and most of all you need to do what you love and if you make gobs of money doing that more power to you

[SpookyWriter]

Well said, Zolah. People are motivated by different things. For me, money is not a huge motivator. Obviously, I need a roof over my head and I need my husband and cat to be fed... but if those things are in place, money is not a motivator.

I actually turned down a job promotion which would have increased my salary by a significant figure. I turned it down because I wanted more time to write (which is what I love). In fact, I only work part time now. It's a financial sacrifice, but I have less stress and I can spend more time with my family.

I echo much of what has already been written... you should write because you love the craft. Money... that's gravy.I hate to say this, but from what I read the only reason money isn't an issue is because your husband plays a significant role in the financial freedom you need to write. Did I understand this correctly? If not, I apologize. But here's the kicker. If you didn't have the luxury of working part-time and had to make ends meet on a writing career then wouldn't you think the money is important?

[Toothpaste]

I think the point of saying "don't become a writer, or an artist of any kind, if you want to make money," is that the odds are stacked up against you. It isn't that you shouldn't think you deserve to be paid for what you do, but the problem with the arts industry is no matter how many classes you take or credentials you have it's no guarentee of success. Certainly going to teacher's college or medical school isn't either, but there is a far higher chance that you will have the chance to work in your field if you follow certain steps. With writing, well, there is that whole talent thing, but a lot of it is also luck. You have to love what you are doing in order to put up with the rejections, to give yourself a pep talk to keep going. To know that you are not giving up, no matter what happens, no matter how many temp jobs you have to work in the meantime.

As far as the whole "advance isn't money" thing. I totally understand where that thought comes from. My book has sold surprisingly well, and it is all very exciting (and I also now can take a nice hiatus from those temp jobs I mentioned earlier), but at the same time I worry that once the book is published (it is my first) that I will never earn another cent. That it will fall flat. An advance is real money, and I think something to be proud of (I'm especially proud of my agent), but the proof is in the pudding. If people buy my book, well that would be the most exciting thing of all!

[eldragon]

How come writers in movies are always rich?

They live in ocean-side mansions - and write in their garden. They have servants bringing them tea.

I detest money. It truly is the root of all evil, and who the heck makes enough of it anymore? Real estate is ridiculous in any good place to live - who the heck can afford to buy a decent house?


I would love to be rich, only so I could stop worrying about money, which is sucking the life out of me most days.

[SpookyWriter]

With writing, well, there is that whole talent thing, but a lot of it is also luck. You have to love what you are doing in order to put up with the rejections, to give yourself a pep talk to keep going. To know that you are not giving up, no matter what happens, no matter how many temp jobs you have to work in the meantime.
Now this is the part that always got me wondering: "What is it with writing that people will work temp jobs just to get published when the money isn't going to be much better than working at MacD's?"

I could never understand that mentality. Why not have a real profession where you could make enough money to have a good quality of life? What's the deal with writers (artist) who suffer for their craft? I can't grasp this concept since I have a good career and writing for me is enjoyable, but not the means to make my bills.

I couldn't imagine cleaning toilets everyday or working as a day laborer just for my desire to write and publish. There's got to be more than that...

Maybe another thread, another day?

[Toothpaste]

Oh well I can answer for me. I'm also an actress, and you can't have a full time job and be an actress at the same time, unlike with writing. You have to be able to go to auditions at the last minute, and then of course if you get a gig it's a huge time comitment of at the minimum a month (with theatre, I guess with commercials you could call in sick for a day).

I think also some of these "real" jobs that give you a good standard of living, many artists feel suck out their souls. I've temped in all sorts of jobs, and I thank my lucky stars every day that I do what I do. Besides, I kinda enjoyed temping. No pressure. No need to make friends. No politics. Just do your job, and go home.

Also I really don't need a lot of money to get by. I'm single, no children, no dependents, no debt. And my one luxury is going to movies. And anyway, I said before, making good money with the writing now.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I think the point of saying "don't become a writer, or an artist of any kind, if you want to make money," is that the odds are stacked up against you. It isn't that you shouldn't think you deserve to be paid for what you do, but the problem with the arts industry is no matter how many classes you take or credentials you have it's no guarentee of success.

But this is true of a lot of endeavers that require an equal amount of talent, hard work and good fortune. If someone is talented, why shouldn't they try to succeed at a career in what they want to do? Would you deny someone the chance to be a professional athlete because "the odds are stacked against them?"

This is the point I've been trying to make. If you think you have the talent to succeed, go for it. GIve it a shot and don't listen to the nay-sayers claiming you won't make any money. The only thing worse than failing at something you love is never having tried.

Reach for that brass ring. If you miss and fall, at least you gave it your best shot.

[Zolah]

Well said, Zolah. People are motivated by different things. For me, money is not a huge motivator. Obviously, I need a roof over my head and I need my husband and cat to be fed... but if those things are in place, money is not a motivator.

I actually turned down a job promotion which would have increased my salary by a significant figure. I turned it down because I wanted more time to write (which is what I love). In fact, I only work part time now. It's a financial sacrifice, but I have less stress and I can spend more time with my family.

I echo much of what has already been written... you should write because you love the craft. Money... that's gravy.

Ditto. I was put up for promotion (which would have meant a substantial rise in pay and getting out of an office that I loathe) and after a struggle I turned it down because it meant I would have to work more hours. I just wasn't willing to give up my writing time. It's too precious to me (my preeeecccious...my preeecious...).

[Zolah]

I hate to say this, but from what I read the only reason money isn't an issue is because your husband plays a significant role in the financial freedom you need to write. Did I understand this correctly? If not, I apologize. But here's the kicker. If you didn't have the luxury of working part-time and had to make ends meet on a writing career then wouldn't you think the money is important?

I don't have a husband or anyone to support me. I support myself on the smallest possible number of hours I can working in the office, and I make sacrifices every day of the week in order to survive on my tiny income. But I'm happy because, despite not being able to own my own home or go abroad on holiday or buy expensive things, I'm able to spend time doing what I love. The money I make writing has helped to pay off a small portion of my debts, but it has made no real difference to my life. And I keep writing anyway, and will do until I die, even if I never strike it big.

So there.

[SpookyWriter]

I detest money. It truly is the root of all evil, and who the heck makes enough of it anymore? Real estate is ridiculous in any good place to live - who the heck can afford to buy a decent house?I love money. I love it more when I have a contract that pays 8-12k a month. I love to travel and splurge on exotic foods and women. I love sitting down to a high-stakes poker game with $4,000 in front of me and not worry if I lose it. I love Cuban cigars and expensive vodka. I love Amsterdam, Istanbul, New York City, Kiev, Paris, London and staying at five star hotels. But I got this appetite from working hard and living life because of my efforts.

So why shouldn't talented writers expect a good life from their efforts. The American public loves (eats it up) when a new book comes out that is exciting and a good read. I can't even begin to believe that any aspiring writer or artisan doesn't come into this business with the belief that they'll make it rich from their craft.

So why shouldn't doctors, lawyers or other professionals feel the same?

Are writers not any different? Should they be? Should they be told again and again how poorly paid this profession is so that they are discouraged from the beginning of their careers?

[CrankItTo11]

I hate to say this, but from what I read the only reason money isn't an issue is because your husband plays a significant role in the financial freedom you need to write. Did I understand this correctly? If not, I apologize. But here's the kicker. If you didn't have the luxury of working part-time and had to make ends meet on a writing career then wouldn't you think the money is important?

Actually, I make enough part-time to support both of us. This arrangement was made possible after years of hard work.

Even when I was working long hours, I still made time for writing... because I love it!

[Dru]

Clarification for Shadow_ferret:

I haven't been trying to say to NOT write. I've just been trying to provide some scope to the the range of possibilities. By all means, every one of us on this board should be reaching for the brass ring of celebrity and instant success. There are, however, harsh realities that a vast majority of writers will never earn those "rockstar" salaries.

It's like telling an actor that most won't ever earn a sizable income in their profession. Some do, but the odds are not great that you'll become a A-list name first time out the gate.

So go into the process informed and then aspire in spite of those facts. Reach for the stars, by all means. Just don't expect that every new writer is pulling down the salaries of Stephen King or J.K. Rowling.

Those who achieve greatness do it because they are driven to it in spite of the odds.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Like Han Solo said to 3PO, Don't ever tell me the odds.

I'm also curious why people think when I say "make money" they assume I mean celebrity and instant success?

[SpookyWriter]

Actually, I make enough part-time to support both of us. This arrangement was made possible after years of hard work.

Even when I was working long hours, I still made time for writing... because I love it!Yes, but can you make a decent enough living and do you believe that someday you'll be able to afford a new car? Or is writing so obsessive that you would forsake a guaranteed future for a measly income that won't be sufficient to put the kids through college.

Tell me you plan to make it big!

[CrankItTo11]

Like Han Solo said to 3PO, Don't ever tell me the odds.

I'm also curious why people think when I say "make money" they assume I mean celebrity and instant success?

Good point. :)

I think being able to pay bills (maybe even *gasp* all the bills) from writing is fantastic. I'll never forget when the first time I paid rent by writing. I felt like a rock star.

[Toothpaste]

Well I think there is a bit of crossing wires here. I mean, I think everyone agrees you should go for it and that one deserves to make money doing what you love. I think the difference comes from the goal. Is the goal to make money, or to do what one loves? And they are not mutually exclusive. But it makes for very different forces driving the endeavor and I believe that if your motivation is the first, well why not do a job that is more secure and the odds aren't stacked against you. And I don't think telling people the odds is discouraging. The ones who want to write for a living will do it no matter who puts them down. The only people you are discouraging are the ones who are like, "Well writing a book looks like an easy way to make money."

SpookyWriter, will you be my sugar daddy?

[jbal]

Stay away from my sugar daddy!!!

[CrankItTo11]

Yes, but can you make a decent enough living and do you believe that someday you'll be able to afford a new car? Or is writing so obsessive that you would forsake a guaranteed future for a measly income that won't be sufficient to put the kids through college.

Tell me you plan to make it big!

LOL

I'm a bit shy, so the idea of celebrity isn't too appealing to me. BUT, of course I would love to make it big. Of course, I wouldn't turn down big money for writing.

As a said in an earlier post, so long as there is a roof over my head and food on the table money is not a huge motivator. If I didn't have these things, if I didn't have a well paying PT job, I would be more movtivated by money. If that was the circumstance, however, I don't think I'd bank on my novel to feed my husband. I'd find other work (but still write late at night while my well-fed husband slept!)

[CrankItTo11]

Well I think there is a bit of crossing wires here. I mean, I think everyone agrees you should go for it and that one deserves to make money doing what you love. I think the difference comes from the goal. Is the goal to make money, or to do what one loves? And they are not mutually exclusive. But it makes for very different forces driving the endeavor and I believe that if your motivation is the first, well why not do a job that is more secure and the odds aren't stacked against you. And I don't think telling people the odds is discouraging. The ones who want to write for a living will do it no matter who puts them down. The only people you are discouraging are the ones who are like, "Well writing a book looks like an easy way to make money."

SpookyWriter, will you be my sugar daddy?


Toothpaste- Thanks, you wrote what I meant...just much better. :)

[SpookyWriter]

SpookyWriter, will you be my sugar daddy?Ha! I'm a traveling monk with no permanent address. How will you find me?

[Shadow_Ferret]

I believe that if your motivation is the first [money], well why not do a job that is more secure and the odds aren't stacked against you.

What job would that be? What job isn't stacked against me? If you can point me to a job that requires no education, no related experience, no specific talents, no desire to succeed and yet I can still make oodles and oodles of guaranteed money, tell me now before I waste one more minute trying to market my book. :)

[Toothpaste]

You mean you also want SpookyWriter to be your sugar daddy? (;->)

Thanks hon! Nice to know the mess in my head is a bit clearer on the outside!

[SpookyWriter]

I'm a bit shy, so the idea of celebrity isn't too appealing to me. BUT, of course I would love to make it big. Of course, I wouldn't turn down big money for writing.There is nothing stopping you from doing it. Don't believe the naysayers of doom. I think it's a crock that we can't dream of making it big. I don't enjoy reading all the doom and gloom threads about writing for a living. So what, life sucks for most professions, but don't kill my dream of being the best car salesman on the market.

[SpookyWriter]

What job would that be? What job isn't stacked against me? If you can point me to a job that requires no education, no related experience, no specific talents, no desire to succeed and yet I can still make oodles and oodles of guaranteed money, tell me now before I waste one more minute trying to market my book. :)Politician?

[Toothpaste]

SpookyWriter, sweetie, trust me, you'd want to find me.

Okay Shadow Ferret fine. You're right. Yes you need a level of education for a good job. You are right. I guess I was just thinking how teachers go to school, go to college, and more often then not get a job that starts off at around 24 000 not a lot, but way more than the average advance you must agree. Writers, go to school, even get MFA's or whatever, and yet the odds of them getting published, versus the teacher going through the teacher's route to get a job, is much higher. Does that make sense? My point is, there are routes and paths to everything, some are far more straightforward and allow for a higher degree of probability that you'll get a job. If you can get into Law School, get through it, graduate. Pass the bar or whatever, chaces are you'll get a job. But you can get into a writiing MFA, not easy, graduate with honours, and still low odds.

Am I making any sense. The brain is hurting again.

[kuatolives]

The worst mistake I ever made in life was making gobs of money doing something I hate.

[johnzakour]

Writing as a career has a lot of advantages, you can set your own hours and be your own boss. Thanks to being a writer I’ve been able to be a “stay at home dad” and also work towards finally finishing that Ph.D. Plus, I get satisfaction knowing that on any given day over 100,000 (between my comics and books) are reading my words.

After a while, between multiple advances and foreign sales the money becomes respectable. Plus, as a writer you always have the added chance (slim as it may be) to get the big payday from that really great movie deal.

All this, from a job you can do at home, wearing sweats and sitting in front of a computer.

That being said, it really helps to have a spouse / significant other who has a regular job for both the benefits and the steady sure income.

[Zolah]

So why shouldn't talented writers expect a good life from their efforts....I can't even begin to believe that any aspiring writer or artisan doesn't come into this business with the belief that they'll make it rich from their craft....

...Are writers not any different? Should they be? Should they be told again and again how poorly paid this profession is so that they are discouraged from the beginning of their careers?

They shouldn't expect a 'good life' soully from their writing efforts because they most likely won't get one. Facts are facts - most people don't make a living from writing, and if you go into writing expecting to become wealthy and live large on money from your books, chances are you will be very disappointed very quickly. That disillusionment might even be sharp enough to make you give the whole thing up, which would be a shame, if you were a talented writer. The point of what people are saying here is that, in writing, as in all potential careers, you need to be realistic about your prospects. You need to be a writer because you love it, and look on any money made as a bonus, because in most cases that is all it is - a small check which temporarily eases things but makes no real difference to your life. That is the status quo for the majority of writers, and if that fact is enough to put you off writing, then writing is probably not what you should be doing with your life. You can't bank on becoming a bestseller anymore than you can bank on winning the lottery. Either one would be fabulous, but basing your hopes and dreams on the off-chance is a recipe for unhappiness.

That is not to say that there aren't tremendous rewards in being a writer, but they tend to be spiritual and emotional ones. The thrill of that acceptance letter; the enjoyment of working on revisions with an editor who 'gets' your work; the joy of seeing artwork for the cover and then proofs of your work; getting letters and emails from readers who loved what you created; those things are a buzz unlike any other. Those feelings mean more to me than money ever could.

Finally - when you say: "The American public loves (eats it up) when a new book comes out that is exciting and a good read..." you're being, not only rather naive (dozens of new books that are exciting and a good read get published every week - so how come all of them don't become a bestsellers that allow their writers to become self supporting? Because it's rather more complex than that) but also quite insulting to all those of us who labour away over our books day after day and yet don't become hugely wealthy. Your implication is that if we just tried a bit harder, wrote better books that were more exciting and easier to read, we could all be rich and famous tomorrow. Well, all I can say in answer to that is: try it. You go out and try your very best for a few years, and then come back and tell us all about how easy it is to make it big and write bestsellers. I'm sure we'll all be very happy to listen.

And that's my last word on the subject, since something tells me only the bitter taste of experience will be enough to convince some people that reality applies to all of us, no matter how big our dreams are.

[SirTimberWolf]

Wow, ever get the feeling you're playing Sim City and fell asleep at the computer after setting up all the utilities?

The conflict (for me anyway) isn't at all about the money, the craft comes first, even to some basic things (I can go without telephone service so I can keep my not so frequent job and have time for writing) but at the same time I step back and I look at the work I've done and I start wondering, is it all worth it?
Personally I know it is, I've fallen so deeply in love with the story that I've written that it's actually gone beyond what I could have imagined it would have, now I'm planning a trillogy (or maybe a short 4 or 5 book series) revolving around the ideas. Though I may never get them ALL done I'm still so invested in the story that I could easily see these things happening. But then reality sets in and it's not filled with flowery messages of hope and transendance but the needs of life; how quickly everything could go sour and probably will if I'm not careful.
That reasoning made me pose the subject but with the discussion that's been going on here I dunno that anything I could contribute wouldn't have already been covered, haha. But still; ultimately it IS about the craft (and I believe to some extent, what you decide to do with it.) But making a couple dollars doing something you'd gladly do for free. . . Icing on the cake I suppose, huh?

[Can't Catch A Break]

$24.00.

I refused to cash the sum amount. If I did, it would have been an admittance that I actually sold three books which is a lie. :cry:

[SpookyWriter]

Finally - when you say: "The American public loves (eats it up) when a new book comes out that is exciting and a good read..." you're being, not only rather naive.I wish I were naive. I've been writing, attending college, since 1980, and graduated in 1986. I took my first creative writing class in 1981 and attended ASU's creative writing program.

So in twenty six years I've become more naive or less? Hmmm...now I may have over simplified the premise for making money by writing, but naive?

[veinglory]

I think the point to realise is that most midlist author still have non-writing jobs to support themselves, many of the rest have spouses who subsidise their efforts. And even more aspire to be midlist and don't get there.

In most other careers you secure a job and you make an 'a priori' rate per hour or per unit produced. This is not true of most novel-writing situations. This isn't being grinchy, it's being realisitic. I write to make money, sure. But I am not quitting my day job any time soon.

I would suggest, not altogether seriously, that the closest equivalent to any other career is a high stakes gambler. A good gambler can win enough to live on year after year, but there aren't many of them and they still hit losing streaks--most of the rest of us win intermittently or gamble as a sideline, hobbny or entertainment. The pros are still in it for the money, but most Momma's aren;t encouraging their kids to be gamblers rather than doctors....

[Novelist in Paradise]

Ten thousand advance for my first YA novel. It did well with the critics but not the reading public, so my second YA novel on the tsunami, a highly mediagenic event, only got the same advance. But once Hollywood bought the rights to the scond and Scholastic Book Fairs picked it up (months before release), my publisher signed me up to write two more novels at a significantly higher advance.

With my movie option and the latter two advances, this year I actually made a livable income from writing. However, this being writing, there's no guarantee for next year. Unless the movie option is exercised. Then I have to incorporate to save (legally) on a whole lot of taxes.

By the way, I didn't intend to become a YA writer. There's information on this out there, but I don'twant to pound my chest too hard here. Got a sore rib from surfing the other day.

I'm one who doesn't quite understand why many authors are reluctant to talk about their advances and this side of the business. Maybe because I'm the naive one.

[SpookyWriter]

In most other careers you secure a job and you make an 'a priori' rate per hour or per unit produced.Widget theory? Hmmm...I must renegotiate my rate per unit when I redesign the company's virtual world factory database.

[Novelist in Paradise]

By the way, I forgot to say that the biggest payout I did get on my first novel were several letters from touched readers for whom the novel really resonated, who got a new perspective on things.

Money's nice, and I don't want to sound too airy fairy here, but *that's* why I write.

[aadams73]

I'm one who doesn't quite understand why many authors are reluctant to talk about their advances and this side of the business. Maybe because I'm the naive one.

Because it's akin to asking people what their salary is. I figure it's no one's business how much I make from writing or anything else. To me it's a really rude question.

[SpookyWriter]

Because it's akin to asking people what their salary is. I figure it's no one's business how much I make from writing or anything else. To me it's a really rude question.I won't ask the DBA sitting next to me at work what is his salary because I already know he's making at least $90,000 a year (not including benefits). I won't ask the clerk who is busy typing because it's insulting to her. Peers don't need to ask if they know they are compensated for what they're worth. So are writers terrified to let people know their net worth from such a lofty occupation? Writers continue to enjoy the myth of being well paid and have a certain status among the average American.

But if people really knew that writers make no more or less than a full-time employee at McDonalds then just how would they feel?

The myth writers enjoy is a great line that people can use at social functions or bars to break the ice.

"So what do you do for a living?"
"I'm a writer."
"Cool. Are you published?"
"Yeah, my last story sold for $50.00."

[Bubastes]

The myth writers enjoy is a great line that people can use at social functions or bars to break the ice.

"So what do you do for a living?"
"I'm a writer."
"Cool. Are you published?"
"Yeah, my last story sold for $50.00."

Heck, when I told my DBF that I sold a story for $250, he asked "Jeez, why do you even bother?" You just can't explain some things to non-writers, which is why I never mention my writing to him anymore!

[SpookyWriter]

Heck, when I told my DBF that I sold a story for $250, he asked "Jeez, why do you even bother?" You just can't explain some things to non-writers, which is why I never mention my writing to him anymore!Good for you! I never submit my work (or rarely is more like it) because who could possibly understand working so hard for a few bucks? I have tons of unsubmitted work that will probably wait until after I'm dead.

Pride. Hmmm...I can't understand how someone who makes six figures a year can chuck it all away for less than the average American income.

Are all artisans stupid? Do one thing and do it good. This etho has sustained many people for hundreds of years. So why isn't it possible for writers (artisans) to differentiate between hungry and artistic reality?

[Toothpaste]

But sugar daddy, surely you can see that your priorities are not the same as some other people. I empathise with you, I can see why lots and lots of money could be a yummy thing to have, but at the same time, some people really don't need that much money to be happy. They have other things that fill the void aside from material interests. Yes of course they need enough to function and exist, but . . .but . . . I mean, you do see how the crux of your argument is based on what you think people should want, because you want it, rather than what many people actually want.

[jbal]

I warned you...

[Toothpaste]

jbal, can't we share?

[veinglory]

Widget theory? Hmmm...I must renegotiate my rate per unit when I redesign the company's virtual world factory database.

Did you redesign it and then wait for a year or two to see if they would pay you at all and if so how much?

[jbal]

jbal, can't we share?
Are we converting to Mormon?

[Toothpaste]

You mean you aren't?

[Tallymark]

I write because I love it, but unfortunately, I have barely any time to write in my day. I work several jobs, and while I don't need oodles of money to make me happy, I need enough money to live on, which I'm not even getting right now. I'd love to quit my job and hammer out that first novel, but it's a risk I can't take--I might make better money if I sold a book, but what if I didn't? Lets say I spend a thousand hours writing and editing that first book--and then it never sells. This is to be expected, books sometimes just don't sell, and the next book may make me the money I need, but in the meantime, if I'd worked even at McDonalds for that thousand hours, I'd at least have real money in my pocket. For people who're supporting themselves, the risk of a book not paying off is too dangerous to quit their jobs over.

[jbal]

Well, if we cut Spooky in half...

[jpserra]

$33,642.17 to date.

[Del]

I think my professional sales have topped $12 now. Ebooks. You gotta love 'em.

[LeeFlower]

Ok, I'm not published, so I can't weigh in on the original question. But I can weigh in on the 'do I want to be rich' debate.

I attended my first SFF convention when I was thirteen. While I was registering, a program participant walked up to the table and picked up their badge, and through said participant's brief exchange with the registrar, I figured out that he was getting in for free. I turned to my friend and said "Dude, writers get into cons for free? I am so writing a novel."

So basically, if I get to a place where I can get into cons for free, I call that a win. Do I think riches beyond my wildest imaginings would suck? Not so much, no. But I also don't think that being appointed queen of the known universe would suck. It doesn't mean I'm making it a life plan.

[Novelist in Paradise]

Because it's akin to asking people what their salary is.

The *advance* is not the same as one's income.

An author could earn much more than that from royalty, or, more commonly, not earn out, fail to make the publisher money, in which case the author is pretty much screwed for the next novel(s).

The $500,000 plus advance is a dangerous thing, good for now and is in itself a good PR boost, but could have a nasty boomerang effect if the author doesn't sell out.

Much more common is the small advance, which isn't enough to live full time on.

I reckon beginning novelists would do well to know all this, and that published writers should be open about it.

[YouFunnyToo]

The $500,000 plus advance is a dangerous thing, good for now and is in itself a good PR boost, but could have a nasty boomerang effect if the author doesn't sell out.

Much more common is the small advance, which isn't enough to live full time on.

I reckon beginning novelists would do well to know all this, and that published writers should be open about it.
Absolutely. My hope was to acquire an advance sufficiently large to insure that my house would continue to pay attention to me. So far, so good.

[veinglory]

I think my professional sales have topped $12 now. Ebooks. You gotta love 'em.

Mine are ebooks too. So I think that down to more than just the format?

[triceretops]

Two non-fiction books (small press) came to about $9,000 in 1 1/2 years total. This was in 1988, and it took me six months to complete, edit, and turn both in.

Tri

[spacejock2]

So basically, if I get to a place where I can get into cons for free, I call that a win. Do I think riches beyond my wildest imaginings would suck? Not so much, no. But I also don't think that being appointed queen of the known universe would suck. It doesn't mean I'm making it a life plan.

Sorry to disillusion you, but published authors don't get in to cons for free unless they're one of the invited guests. I've been to cons where I've had panels to do, and I still paid my way. In fact, I was the local GOH at one particular con and they charged my wife a membership. That was her first ever con, and she only came along to give me a bit of support.

[spacejock2]

On the original topic, I got a small advance for my books and re-invested it into publicity. My publisher did their bit, of course, but I wanted to do more.

Bookmarks and bucketloads of author copies are what I spent mine on.

[Jack_Roberts]

But people keep talking about the real reason for being a writer, especially a published one. For me, it's the fact that I have stories to tell and that I want to share my stories with as many people as possible-millions, if I can.
Am I going to take the money? You bet. But it isn't first and foremost about the money, at least not for me. It's about people reading and enjoying my work. It's knowing that something that sprouted as a seedling in my own little brain has connected with people, and perhaps has made some difference. That, for me, is what publication is all about. The money is just the proverbial icing on the cake.

Amen. I'm not published... yet. I'm still looking for an agent. I'd like to lose my full time job and just be paid to write.
Will it happen? According to logic, no. Who knows what the future will bring?

But weither I am able to lose the day job or not, if I can just touch people, help people, entertain people with Annabelle, then I'll be paid in spades.

[James D. Macdonald]

No. It's still just an "Advance" on your money. That's why they call it an "Advance".

No, it's an advance on your royalties.

The check cashes, it goes into your bank account, it gets spent on groceries. You have to pay taxes on it.

It's money. And most times (since advances are calculated to equal what you're going to earn in royalties) it is the only money you see.

----------

To answer the OP's question: $2,200, in 1988.

[aruna]

I detest money. It truly is the root of all evil, and who the heck makes enough of it anymore? Real estate is ridiculous in any good place to live - who the heck can afford to buy a decent house?


I would love to be rich, only so I could stop worrying about money, which is sucking the life out of me most days.

You misquoted:
Money is not the root of all evil - it's the LOVE of money.
I used to feel the way you do. In fact, my dad, a devoted Marxist, raised me with that misquote.

I made a LOT opf money with my three novels; well into the six figures with advances and royalties.

I spent it all in six years. Not squandered, mind you: I spent it on my kids' education, the down payment for an appartment, and living in a very expensive country.

Now, my only goal with my new book is mortgage-free living. If I earn beyond that, I want to indulge in charity. I have a huge dream in that respect. Yes, I do want to earn money with it just in order to be free of the debilitating efects of NOT having money.

But money was never my morivation, and is not now. I have to be very clear while writing: it has to be for the sake of the story alone. Writing for money muddies the waters and spoils the work.

[Shadow_Ferret]

And that's my last word on the subject, since something tells me only the bitter taste of experience will be enough to convince some people that reality applies to all of us, no matter how big our dreams are.

I have a dream. I've had this dream since I submitted my first story at 15. I will have this dream until the day I die.

No amount of sour grapes or nay-saying from people here will ever tarnish that dream.

How much have I earned in my fiction writing career to date? $16. But reality hasn't left any bitter taste in my mouth, it has only made me more determined to try to achieve that dream.

Writing for money muddies the waters and spoils the work.

How does it muddy the water? Unless you're sitting there rubbing your hands together greedily counting money you haven't got yet. I write for the story. I don't have dollar signs flashing in front of my eyes as I'm writing thinking about the money it'll make. I worry about the story first. When it's finished and I start submitting it, THEN I start to think about the money. Otherwise why submit?

I believe I put as much of my heart and soul into my writing as any one else here.

[BruceJ]

True, the motivation of the heart is tightly linked with the quality of the output.

My first work has just been released, so I don't have any track record yet. I'm just hoping it's successful enough for the publisher to pick up the option on the next volume. I'm donating the royalties anyway so I'm focusing more on the number of copies sold than the actual dollar amount. That'll be the determinant factor on whether we go on with the trilogy or whether there's gonna be a prelude hanging naked out there. :-)

[aruna]

How does it muddy the water? Unless you're sitting there rubbing your hands together greedily counting money you haven't got yet. I write for the story. I don't have dollar signs flashing in front of my eyes as I'm writing thinking about the money it'll make. I worry about the story first. When it's finished and I start submitting it, THEN I start to think about the money. Otherwise why submit?

I believe I put as much of my heart and soul into my writing as any one else here.
No, I don't mean sitting there rubbing my hands. It's a long story... but I learned to separate the act of writing with the results of writing, and keep them separate in my mind.
I write primarily because I'm a storyteller and love to write. But with my first book, publication was foremost on my mind. It became an obsession, finally a dilemma. It finally blocked me and the publication process. Only when I ditched that book and wrote purely and absolutely for the immediate joy of writing did it work. Publication was more of a side effect in that case. For me at least, I need to keep the two functions absolutely sepeareet. To write for money would be the death of my writing.

[eldragon]

The worst mistake I ever made in life was making gobs of money doing something I hate.
Lucky you.

I wish that was my worst mistake.

[dragonjax]

My first sale was a short story to a paying market. I earned $6.27, and a byline.

My agent told me the average advance range for a romance novel is $7,500 - $15,000 per book.

An advance on royalties is bankable...and taxible. As for royalites themselves, well, either you earn out your advance and then get quarterly checks on any additional sales (minus your agent's 15 percent), or you don't earn out your advance and you don't see another penny on that book. Hard to plan a budget based on royalties, especially when you're first starting out.

I have a day job. And I have a family -- a husband and two young children. I have a mortgage. I have car payments. I have college loan payments. I have health insurance, life insurance, home owner insurance. I have college savings for my children, and retirement savings for me and my husband. I have cost of living expenses. My children are in day care/after school programs because my husband and I both have full-time jobs.

And I have publishing expenses. Those advance reading copies I received don't mail themselves. My website wasn't free; neither was my web designer nor my internet connection. Or my toner cartridges. Or my computer. Granted, I've splurged by purchasing copies of books by authors in my genre (tax deductible) instead of borrowing books from the library.

Even though I made good money from my three-book sale to my publisher, it doesn't compare with the money I'm making from my day job. So until I earn enough to become a full-time author, I'll keep on trucking as I've been doing.

What's that magic number for me? I don't know. I'd think it would have to be around as much as I'm making in my day job. Which means that being a full-time author is a long ways away for me.

Hey, everyone's got to have a goal. :-)

[kuatolives]

In my tech job career thingy, I bill out at 100 bucks an hour and turn away work so I have spare time to write. The bottom line is I can work as much as I want to at that rate of billing.

If it takes me 6 months to write a book, that's roughly 180 days at say....oh....4 hours a day. That's 720 hours and roughly $72 000 I could have earned had I not been writing.

My last manuscript COST me $72 000 to write.

[Shadow_Ferret]

That's an odd way of looking at things. So theoretically if you didn't write you'd be working every waking hour?

Because when I say I write in my spare time, I MEAN my spare time, not time that would otherwise have been devoted to something else like work or my family. It's actually time I've set aside specifically for writing and would have been used for sleeping otherwise.

[Allie]

I truly believe that as a collective group, we are laying ourselves down to be totured. You cannot know when you start out whether or not you have the next bestseller in your hands, or a book that cannot be sold.

They only way to know is to try, but that swamps editors and agents with thousands of manuscripts and query letters that they cannot begin to process, making it difficult, if not impossible for all works to get a decent shake out.

In a way, it's too bad that there isn't a required degree or somekind of certification that a new author has to pass before heading out to market. In some cases for a new author to ask for an agent is like a high school basketball player trying to work with Michael Jordan's agent.

But that's life, if I wanted steady income, I'd go back to my serious, tech career.

[SpookyWriter]

In my tech job career thingy, I bill out at 100 bucks an hour and turn away work so I have spare time to write. The bottom line is I can work as much as I want to at that rate of billing.

If it takes me 6 months to write a book, that's roughly 180 days at say....oh....4 hours a day. That's 720 hours and roughly $72 000 I could have earned had I not been writing.

My last manuscript COST me $72 000 to write.I feel your pain, brother. I'm in the same boat. I had three months off to work on my stuff and it cost me plenty. I go back to contracting next week and am busy trying to decide what to submit before I get sucked back into the programming world with limited time to write.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

No, it's an advance on your royalties.

The check cashes, it goes into your bank account, it gets spent on groceries. You have to pay taxes on it.

It's money. And most times (since advances are calculated to equal what you're going to earn in royalties) it is the only money you see.

----------

To answer the OP's question: $2,200, in 1988.


Bolding Mine.


Forgive me for being a bit OT here, but are you saying that an author's advance is what the publisher expects the total royalties to be originally? So then the royalties beyond that would be something the publisher did not expect the book to earn?

Interesting. You learn something new every day.

[Memnon624]

My advance for my first book, which came out in 2005, was $1000. It did reasonably well, sold a modest amount, earned back its advance and then some. Plus several foreign sales.

But before I even started writing it, in December 2000, I quit my day job and went deep-diving below the poverty line. I wrote endlessly, worked 'spare change' jobs -- maybe a week at a time -- and luckily had a rather wealthy friend who liked to style herself a Patron of the Arts (I once earned a few weeks' living expenses by cataloging her collection of Christmas miniatures). Everything more experienced writers tell you not to do, I did. And it seems to have worked.

The key, I think, was that I didn't have a wife or family to worry about. A person can be ballsey or foolhardy when its only their own skin on the line. For myself, though, I admire those who can maintain a family, a job, AND succeed as a writer . . .

[RTH]

All this worrying about the future is making my brain hurt... :e2hammer:

Ouch...

[Del]

That's an odd way of looking at things. So theoretically if you didn't write you'd be working every waking hour?



Shadow, I think Kuato just meant he could have easily used his writing time as earning time. To me, he just meant he doesn't expect to make as much writing as he could otherwise so he isn't in it for the money.

__________________________________________________ _______


I imagine it is on the back of everyone's mind to get the big score, the movie deal, the I don't have to worry about paying the bills feeling. If you don't feel strongly about what you write then how is the reader going to feel any of your enthusiasm? If someone writes for the love of money then maybe they should write about money and leave the sensitive stuff to us poor wannabes because few can write something moving without putting their heart into it.

[kuatolives]

Shadow, I think Kuato just meant he could have easily used his writing time as earning time. To me, he just meant he doesn't expect to make as much writing as he could otherwise so he isn't in it for the money.

ja

[LeeFlower]

Sorry to disillusion you, but published authors don't get in to cons for free unless they're one of the invited guests. I've been to cons where I've had panels to do, and I still paid my way. In fact, I was the local GOH at one particular con and they charged my wife a membership. That was her first ever con, and she only came along to give me a bit of support.

Shatter my dreams, won't you? :P I'll give you a slightly altered example, then: costumers. I know lots of them (I am one, in fact, but I don't sell my stuff). It's not a business that makes much cash-- I'd wager it's harder to make a living at than writing. But if you're good at it and really put in the effort, it pays well enough to cover the cost of attending cons (including room and travel). A five thousand dollar advance? That there will buy a heck of a lot of con badges...

My point, though, is that not everyone's in this business for oodles of riches (or even for enough money to live on). My advance, if I manage to sell my novel, will go straight towards my college loans. Even if I only land an advance on the low side of average, that's 5k in loans I won't have to worry about when I graduate. That, to me, is worth the effort it took me to write the book. I'm very good at living within my means, and I'm afraid I have far too great an interest in my chosen field to not try to get a day job in it. If I can get to a place in this business where I can look forward to an occasional few thousand dollars of 'screw around' money on top of my normal income, that's really good enough for me.

[Scarlett_156]

... "sale"....? Wait a minute, let me get this straight: There are people out there who might give me money... to... WRITE??? :O

[Diana Peterfreund]

There is an ongoing survey for novel advances in the genre of romance here:
http://www.karenafox.com/money.htm

And one for novel advances in the genre of science fiction and fantasy here:
http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2005/10/05/author-advance-survey-version-20/

[Jamesaritchie]

No. It's still just an "Advance" on your money. That's why they call it an "Advance".

If yoou can go buy something with it, it's money. Call it what you like, but give me a ten million dollar advance, and I guarantee you the IRS will call it money, so will my wife, and so will every business where I spend it.

[Del]

It is my understanding that the advance is yours, free and clear and thereby it is indeed your money and not just your advance. If JAR didn't earn out on his $10 million advance then he still earned $10 million on the work. Correct?

[Jamesaritchie]

Four out of five startup businesses also lose money and fail. Does this mean we shouldn't go into business for money?

I tend to agree with Samuel Johnson. No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.

I enjoy the process of writing, I love telling stories, and I enjoy being my own boss immensely, but I'm damned if I'd be a writer if I couldn't also make money at it.

[Del]

Some people like to write. Money forces obligations and responsibilities. Frankly, James, If I had to write the way you do I think writing would become laborious. I want to make lots of money with my writing but being expected to would make me nervous.

You do it because you can. I don't because I can't. But I like to write. I may be a blockhead but not for that reason.

[Chumplet]

Why do I have twenty paintings of horses, dogs, birds and hockey players on my walls? I know I should sell them, but the thought of giving up my babies and never seeing them again is terrifying. Those paintings aren't making any money hanging on my walls. But I keep them. I don't know why - I should be sharing them with others, but I'm selfish. Why do some artists paint, and never sell their work? Because they love to paint, and they love to look at the results.

I put my heart and soul into my writing, too. I enjoy crafting a story, and learning how to do it well. My first novel will probably never sell, but the process of writing it taught me plenty about the craft. Maybe the second one will sell, maybe not. But that doesn't stop me from trying with a third.

My painting improved over the years, and I'm gaining the same valuable experience with my writing.

I want to make money from writing. Why the hell not? I work full time, I have two teenagers and a husband to support, and the debt is about waist-high at the moment. We have no savings, no college tuition for my daughter, and a mounting feeling of dread. Of COURSE I want to make money from writing, if only to wipe out some of the debt.

The time I invest in writing could easily be spent watching television, so any money I make from it will be a bonus. The same could be said for my painting. No investment was made except for a bit of paint and canvas, and some time. So what if the laundry is still waiting to be done? I've got priorities.

Maybe I should sell some of those paintings. Ouch...

Money makes the world go around, whether we like it or not.

[peevy]

And one for novel advances in the genre of science fiction and fantasy here:
http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2005/10/05/author-advance-survey-version-20/

Really interesting article! I just wish more than 100 authors had been surveyed.

[Del]

Advances range higher than I would have thought. How much is the writer's cut, routinely? Just doing the math in my head, to offer an advance of $500,000 the publisher would have to project book sales nearing ten million. I know million sellers happen but how can they look at a book and say "this will be a million seller."

[Diana Peterfreund]

Really interesting article! I just wish more than 100 authors had been surveyed.
I think he keeps the survey open, and as more people respond, he updates. Or maybe he did until a certain point.

Regarding the "love or money" issue, I think I feel both. I do this job because I love it, but I also do this particular job becuase I can be paid for it. If I couldn't make a living at it, I'd still do it and have another job as well. I was lucky that my first contract made enough for me to quit my day job, but I'm also congnizant of the fact that I need to keep doing it. And that informs my decisions about which projects I choose to pursue.

And regarding the advances: yep, it's money. You keep it, even if you don't earn enough royalties to equal it. I have received advice saying never rely on royalties. Consider that the advance might be all you ever get, and royalties are like bonuses. Best advice ever.

Re: how they calculate advances: usually, it's based on how much they think you're going to make (publishers have these nifty things called Profit and Loss Statements which Tor editor anna genoese talks about in detail here (http://alg.livejournal.com/84032.html) and here (http://alg.livejournal.com/89781.html)) but in certain cases, as with blockbusters or celebrities (politcal bios) they give a huge, huge advance in order to get the book. Because even if the author doesn't earn out according to the royalty percentage, the publishing house is going to make a mint out of selling millions of copies of anything. And if you ARE a huge blockbuster, they are also buying the rights to your backlist, and your whole list is going to be in print forever...