How much did you earn for the sale of your first novel?

SirTimberWolf · Nov 27, 2006

Hello,

Tasteless subject to some I'm sure but more and more I'm finding myself curious as to how much the 'average' (or in my case, below average) writer makes on their first novel sale. I understand it's a case by case basis thing but I was wondering if someone would be kind enough to put up a roundabout figure- I'm kind of loosing motivation and wondering if it'll all be 'worth it' in the end or if I should just shelve my project or give it away.
I love writing, I love my story and everything about it but sometimes I wonder if it'll wind up being a 'hey look what I did, I don't have anything to show for it but I wrote a book!' and that just really scares me. . .

I'm not looking to make millions of dollars or anything but getting stuck with something like a $30 pay off is kind of frightening. (Just published an article on AC, kind of brought me here. :X)
Anyway, thank yiou if you choose to disclose or just reply!
-Johnathan

veinglory · Nov 27, 2006

First novel, about $200, second, about $1500. At least it's moving up, eh?

victoriastrauss · Nov 27, 2006

My first advance, back in the 1980's, was $2,500. The average advance for a first-timer these days ($5,000-10,000) isn't a whole lot more--at any rate, it certainly hasn't kept pace with inflation. Most professional writers I know are not self-supporting with their writing, and the few who are work extremely hard (and often have to supplement their writing income with related work). It's not the biz to go into if you want to make money.

- Victoria

jchines · Nov 27, 2006

For Goblin Quest:

Small press advance -- $1000
Picked up by larger press as a mass market -- $4000
Foreign sales of the same title -- about $4000 - $5000

Tobias Buckell did a survey of first time advances that you might be interested in. His results are posted at http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/wordpress/?p=1695

willietheshakes · Nov 27, 2006

Before I Wake has, so far, earned into the low six figures. Option for film rights and further foreign rights sales pending.

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 27, 2006

victoriastrauss said:
It's not the biz to go into if you want to make money.

- Victoria

But it'll be a nice retirement income, no?

YouFunnyToo · Nov 27, 2006

Close to half a million in advance for NA hardcover and trade paper rights. The book has not hit the shelves yet. This, alas, is quite unusual.

badducky · Nov 27, 2006

I think of the money like this:

"The Advance" looks like money, smells like money, and works like money. But, it's not money. It's an "Advance" on money.

The money comes from the commission of sales that will reflect the quality of your writing, and the market's appreciation. Your advance reflects, as well, the publisher's magical, mystical projections of what that number will be someday. But, that's business voodoo, not money.

Until you start seeing royalty checks, it's best not to think of anything as "Money", or even think about "Money" at all.

This isn't the game to go into for the "Money".

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 27, 2006

Why isn't it "money?" Do I have to return it? Isn't it mine?

badducky said:
This isn't the game to go into for the "Money".

Guess somebody should have told that to Stephen King, Koontz, Dan Brown, Clive Cussler, Patterson, Kellerman, DeMille, et al.

SpookyWriter · Nov 27, 2006

victoriastrauss said:
My first advance, back in the 1980's, was $2,500. The average advance for a first-timer these days ($5,000-10,000) isn't a whole lot more--at any rate, it certainly hasn't kept pace with inflation. Most professional writers I know are not self-supporting with their writing, and the few who are work extremely hard (and often have to supplement their writing income with related work). It's not the biz to go into if you want to make money.

- Victoria

So why bother in the first place? Is the goal of publication to stoke our vanity or to obtain a temporary rush from seeing our works in print. I rather think that making money is equally important and that each success will lead to more readership which leads (in theory) to more money for the author.

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 27, 2006

Exactly WHAT business should one go into to be guaranteed millions of dollars? I don't think there is one. It's up to you and your talent to see how far you succeed.

To say writing isn't the profession to go into to make money is to deny that any writers make money at it and that clearly isn't the case. There are millionaire writers. There are well-off writers.

Writing is like any career. You can either succeed or not. It takes talent, hard work, and luck.

But to me, saying it isn't the career to go into to make money sounds like sour grapes.

SpookyWriter · Nov 27, 2006

There are thousands of car salesmen/women who just barely earn the minimum each month to survive. Not all sales people will make big bucks, but there are a number who do because they have the talent, drive, and skills necessary to make good money. I believe many sales positions (i.e. real estate, cars, jewelery, etc.) have the same income pyramid as the writing profession. Yes, there are lots of writers who make little or no money each month from their work. Then again there are also a handful (or maybe hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands) who do succeed and make a decent, if not good, living at writing.

I echo what Shadow_Ferret said about treating this as a profession or career with the objectivity to make money. But like the car salesperson not everyone will have a successful career.

willietheshakes · Nov 27, 2006

badducky said:
"The Advance" looks like money, smells like money, and works like money. But, it's not money. It's an "Advance" on money.

Nah, the advance IS money. In many, many cases, it's the ONLY money.

badducky · Nov 27, 2006

Shadow_Ferret said:
To say writing isn't the profession to go into to make money is to deny that any writers make money at it and that clearly isn't the case. There are millionaire writers. There are well-off writers.

Writing is like any career. You can either succeed or not. It takes talent, hard work, and luck.

But to me, saying it isn't the career to go into to make money sounds like sour grapes.

Even the wealthy ones will tell you the same thing we are saying. Don't go into this job for the money. It's not sour grapes.

If I sold film rights tomorrow for seven figures, and signed massive book deals the next day and got whisked off to Oprah's couch the day after that, I'd still say the same thing.

Instead of worrying about "Money", worry about "Audience" and "Craft".

Just because you can make money as a doctor -- lots of it -- is no reason to be a doctor. Thinking that way will not lead to success as a doctor. Frankly, you probably won't finish med school with such a crazy notion.

It isn't that you can't make money writing. It's that thinking that way will only put one more obstacle in your path.

badducky · Nov 27, 2006

willietheshakes said:
Nah, the advance IS money. In many, many cases, it's the ONLY money.

No. It's still just an "Advance" on your money. That's why they call it an "Advance".

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 27, 2006

badducky said:
It isn't that you can't make money writing. It's that thinking that way will only put one more obstacle in your path.

I don't believe that. They are careers. Doctor. Writer. Lawyer. Indian Chief. And the object of a career is to make money. Period.

No one goes into a career thinking, "I'll never make money at this, but what the hey?" Even doctors, lawyers, dentists, go into it thinking they'll make money. The percentage that is in it for the altruistic "good of mankind" aspect of it is probably very small.

It's a job and people expect to make money.

willietheshakes · Nov 27, 2006

badducky said:
No. It's still just an "Advance" on your money. That's why they call it an "Advance".

Can I put the cheque in the bank? Yes.
Can I spend it? Yes.
Do I have to give it back if I don't earn it out? No.

How, again, is it not money?

jchines · Nov 27, 2006

badducky said:
No. It's still just an "Advance" on your money. That's why they call it an "Advance".

It's an advance against royalties. It's also money. My advance came in the form of a check, which was deposited and put toward the mortgage and various other bills ... all of which would be quite cranky if I paid them in something other than money.

It's true that not all books earn out their advance, but you keep the money either way. You just won't see any additional money from royalties until you earn out that advance.

MajorDrums · Nov 27, 2006

"advance" and "loan" are two different things...right? :Shrug:

badducky · Nov 27, 2006

I never said it didn't operate like money.

I'm just saying, I don't think about it like money. The true value of a book (ferret's notion of wealth and happiness) occurs -- regardless of the size of the advance -- on the back end, where royalties start arriving and reprints are occurring and books stay in print or not. Until then, it's only an advance.

jchines · Nov 27, 2006

MajorDrums said:
"advance" and "loan" are two different things...right?

Right. The advance is yours. You keep it. You do not pay it back, even if 90% of your books get returned and the publisher takes a huge loss.

Of course, if that happens, don't expect a big advance for your next book... But you keep the advance on this one.

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 27, 2006

badducky said:
(ferret's notion of wealth and happiness)

Not sure how you can take what I'm arguing, that you CAN make money at writing, it's a career like any other, and equate that with "I'm going to make millions."

Those are two radically different propositions. Not everyone can make millions no matter WHAT career they go into. That's a province for a select, special few.

But to say that one shouldn't go into writing if you expect to make money (which was what you were saying) is absurd.

If I don't have the talent to be a lawyer, I'll be a very poor lawyer. If I don't have the talent to be a doctor, I'll be a very unsuccessful doctor. The same goes with writing. If I don't have the talent I won't make money at it, but if I do have talent, the possibilities are endless.

Bubastes · Nov 27, 2006

Shadow_Ferret said:
I don't believe that. They are careers. Doctor. Writer. Lawyer. Indian Chief. And the object of a career is to make money. Period.

No one goes into a career thinking, "I'll never make money at this, but what the hey?" Even doctors, lawyers, dentists, go into it thinking they'll make money. The percentage that is in it for the altruistic "good of mankind" aspect of it is probably very small.

It's a job and people expect to make money.

The key, at least for me, is that making money as a lawyer (my day job) is more of a sure thing than making money as a writer. That's why I say I don't write just for money -- I can make easier, faster money doing other things. I just wouldn't enjoy it as much (or at all). I still treat my writing like a business, but I also recognize it as a higher-risk business proposition than a secure law firm job with benefits.

Begbie · Nov 27, 2006

I was a wealthy lawyer for six years; now I am a struggling writer. I'm much happier now.

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 27, 2006

True. But I'd make an awful lawyer. I'm not a good orator. I hate public speaking. I don't have a good memory. I hate paperwork. I look awful in three piece suits. And wingtips pinch my feet. That wouldn't be a good career move for me. I wouldn't make money at it.

But I would never dream of telling other people, don't become a lawyer, there's no money in it.

Just as I would never dream of discouraging someone from becoming a writer by saying, "there's no money in it."

How much did you earn for the sale of your first novel?

Hiding between the covers.

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