Conflicting advice on screenplay critique

[FJ and G]

I've had 2 friends so far read my script. The guy said it had potential but some areas in the middle didn't keep him on the edge of his seat (not page-turners). The lady, OTOH, had completely different thoughts, saying she was on the edge of her seat the entire screenplay.

Have any of you ever had conflicting advice and what did you do? Or, do you even share your screenplay with anyone for criticism?

I know what I'm going to do.

Back to the reviewing or possibly rewriting process.

[joecalabre]

Get more readers. I would shoot for at least a dozen to get a more acurate reading. The more you get a better idea you'll have.

I'm in a few writer groups with a total of 26 people. So, If one or two say something specific is bad, I consider it an opinion (for the most part), but if a dozen people say the same thing-- time to go into rewrite.

[Hamboogul]

I recommend you giving them a bigger reading chair so that the seat size is larger.

[dchapma123]

How qualified are either of these people to give you practical advice on your script? Do they know how to read a script? A layman can give you a perfectly legitimate opinion (such people are likely to make up the film's audience, after all), but it's likely to be vague and not give you much direction for improvement.

I concur that you shouldn't take the opinion of one or two people as gospel, even if they're both professionals. You can't please everyone, so you shouldn't be too disappointed if a reader is less than enthusiastic. Nor should you be overconfident if one reader really likes it. Get details from them. Which parts worked, which didn't. If one reader is inherently bored by crime dramas, your "Miami Vice"-esque script probably won't move him much. But he's not your intended audience -- you need to know that when he reads it.

If you get 20 people to read it, and the results are still split...well, you just may have one of those quirky, divisive scripts that find a loyal cult following once they get into theaters, but are REALLY hard to get made.

Key, though, is getting screenplay-savvy people to give you the feedback.

[FJ and G]

thanks guys,

the one who didn't like it gave me his input first and I was devastated. Perhaps some of you might have experienced that sinking-gut feeling.

The second reader (none of the 2 are professional readers or writers) really got me feeling better. I'm going to try to attend a writer's group next month and share with them.

guess there will always be a spread of opinions about any piece of writing. I can only imagine that when Mathew, Mark, Luke and the book of John came out, there were critics who thought one or the other books needed some rewrites

[dchapma123]

Yeah, John thought so little of the Book of Mark that he wrote his own book as a rebuttal. That's a heavy critique.

[scripter1]

Keep in mind that everyone has a somewhat different POV for what they like and what they find cool, dramatic, scary, etc. What scares the be-jeebies out of me won't raise a hair on someone else.
What bores the crap out of me might totally intrigue another.

SOOO, you need to get a broader pool of opinion.
Try posting it on zoetrope or triggerstreet. Or you can create a website and ask people from here and donedeal if they would be willing to read it for you and give you some opinions.

The general rule about taking advice and feedback is you can ignore one person's view, you should consider two or three people's opinion, BUT if four or more find the same problem then you aught to listen to them.

[SimonSays]

I disagree with Scripter - it's not the size of the pool of readers that matters - it's the knowledge base of your readers.

Opinions are like a-holes - everybody's got one and the more people you ask, the more conflicting input you will get.

You want to target readers who understand story, structure and character. Period. Those are the key elements that are evaluated by the readers who do coverage for agencies and production companies.

People who don't understand those things will focus on what they like or don't like. People who do understand these things will focus on what works and what doesn't work. Your concern should be what works and what doesn't work. Liking and disliking is a matter of taste.

No script is going to appeal to everyone, but only scripts that work get made.

[JustinoIV]

I agree with Simon, basically. Another thing about evaluating scripts is considering how much would it cost to film the project?

Scripts can be rejected solely due to budgetary reasons. It's why you have to get your work into the right hands. A high budget script is always going to be rejected by indie producers. Likewise, studios aren't going to be very interested in one location low budget scripts.

"Opinions are like a-holes - everybody's got one and the more people you ask, the more conflicting input you will get."

[scripter1]

His question didn't really strike me as being about how the script would work for a studio but rather about how common people might be interested in the actual story.

The script could be flawlessly written and have an acceptable budget range and still be a boring, bland story that the common movie goer isn't interested in.

At least with a broader pool of opinion you get an idea who the market would be for your idea.

More feedback can only help not hurt. Eventually some things should start to stand out, if several people comment about the same thing then you know it ought to be fixed or at least looked at closely.
One person's comment can be a random thing, but when you get a large response that say basically the same thing it becomes valuable.

NOW, don't shoot me if you do get several confusing responses. It will help you deal with eventual studio notes. According to Ted and Terry of Wordplay many of them don't make sense either.

I'm not sure where you are at in your writing career, but I'd say worry about having a story people become interested in BEFORE you worry about budgets and studio coverage.
You get your killer key concept down and characters and all the rest will start to fall in line.

Funny thing is, you post just about anywhere and you'll catch a few pro people in your net and get some solid feedback.
Also, if you let readers know you're just working on story appeal and not fretting about script form quite yet then you'll get more focus on the actual story.

Or, you could post a generic logline and take an opinion poll. :p

[JustinoIV]

"His question didn't really strike me as being about how the script would work for a studio but rather about how common people might be interested in the actual story.

The script could be flawlessly written and have an acceptable budget range and still be a boring, bland story that the common movie goer isn't interested in."

Scripter, there are 300 million "common" people in the US alone.

Showing it to your friends, relatives, or even a few people on a forum like this means absolutely NOTHING.

If you really want to be a writer, you do not need write by committee.

Even highly successful movies still get way under 50% of the people in the US watching them at the box office, and far less on the global scale.

I've heard of no professional writer who needs to get mommy and daddy's approval, or Sally and Sue's approval.

My mother is an old woman in her 50s. I love her dearly, but she likely would not go to watch the kinds of movies I write. And she's entitled to her opinion, because I'm not writing for her.

Primarily, if you're a writer, you should write because you have stories to tell. If you want to sell these stories, shop them out to buyers.

John and Jane do not need to put their 2 cents in!

[dchapma123]

"Showing it to your friends, relatives, or even a few people on a forum like this means absolutely NOTHING."

Why are you here? If forums like this are so useless, why do you waste your time on it? Is it just to make yourself superior to all the naive wannabes who don't have the first clue about how to make it in this business? Because you mostly come off looking like an obnoxious blowhard.

You have to take any criticism you get -- from a producer, agent, or person sitting next to you on the bus -- and treat it as objectively as possible. If a few non-industry friends read your script and think the ending is stupid...well, the ending is probably stupid. You don't need an office at Paramount to know a dumb ending when you see one.

Yes, it's important to get informed feedback, but that doesn't mean you should completely discount the opinions of others. Except your mother, who just won't tell you the truth.

[SimonSays]

An exceptionally written story will not be bland and boring IF IT WORKS. Good writers can make a story work regardless of the subject matter.

Knowing "who the market would be for your idea" serves no purpose in the real world. Your job is to write the story you want to tell in the best way that you can tell it. Producers know what market a story will appeal to and they know what markets they want to reach - they don't need or want you to tell them.

Scripts that don't work don't appeal to any market.

The biggest shortcoming of scripts by inexperienced writers is that they don't work. The structure is weak and the characters aren't developed and don't have an arc.

10-1 your girlfriend will not give you feedback to help you create a character arc. 10-1 your old frat brother doesn't know what a character arc is.

And actually you've been lucky enough to "catch a pro in your net." My input is based on 10 years of experience in this business.

[JustinoIV]

"Why are you here? If forums like this are so useless, why do you waste your time on it? Is it just to make yourself superior to all the naive wannabes who don't have the first clue about how to make it in this business? Because you mostly come off looking like an obnoxious blowhard."

No, I don't think I'm superior to anyone.

When I first started screenwriting, I did get feedback from people who were not professionals. I got prudish women who were upset that my scripts had intimiate sex scenes, and I got a guy who upset that I had characters who did drugs on Sept. 11th. (like real life addicts would take time off their drug trips to observe a day of morning).

That's why I dismiss showing your scripts to the average person, because people who are non professionals get totally hung up on their pet peeves.

They do not know how to criticize the technical aspects of the writing itself, the story structure, etc.

Even when you submit scripts, to a degree, you do indeed need to know what market (PRODUCERS or AGENTS) to submit too.

Not every producer is interested in romantic comedies. A producer might be looking for sci fis at the moment. Ditto for agents too. At certain time they may be looking for certain scripts.

My very first script that I wrote was about two gay Latin men who are lovers. I wrote it because I wanted to make fun of some people that I knew. But I knew that it would be a hard script to sell, in part because it has a limited market. The scripts that I have are getting attention from agents and managers tend to be horror scripts, or fantasy. (read big budget Hollywood). My Latin gay script would be, at best, a low budget indie film.

Would I write similiar scripts in the future? No, because I know from personal experience that there really isn't much of a market. I'm not doing the producer's job. I'm doing my own. Not every story is likely to be sold, no matter how "good" the writing maybe. It's the screenwriter's call to decide what stories he or she can write that will also be commercial.

[BROUGHCUT]

I'm not sure if you are advocating it, exactly, but I don't think writing big-budget fantasy specs is the best way to attract the attention of an agent or manager. I think it is widely regarded as one of the hallmarks of a beginner, as they are a notoriously difficult sell.

Regardless of whom you shop it to, a big-budget full-blown fantasy spec would suggest more naivete about the market than a low/medium budget drama, thriller, or comedy. That's the kind of material producers are most interested in receiving from new writers as they have a far better chance of having it set-up at a studio and subsequently green-lit.

The fact that the studios finance a clutch of "big budget Hollywood" tentpoles a year doesn't mean that it is a 'market' you should focus on writing for. For the most part, producers, not studios, buy specs. They need to actually produce movies to keep their increasingly transient studio deals. There are only a handful of producers who can get a future "big budget Hollywood" script set-up, so writing this kind of movie actually limits, not increases, the number of studio buyers an agent or manager could sell it to.

Sci-fi specs are also expensive and more difficult to set-up, although I wouldn't let that discourage me too much from writing a sci-fi script. But I think you should probably think twice before writing the next LOTR on spec. (Better to write the book first, a la 'Shadowmancer'.)

That's all just my opinion, however. As to whether it's relevant depends on what you mean by 'fantasy' and 'big budget'. There is obviously a middle ground in both cases (one I'm writing in myself).

[joecalabre]

There seems to be a small, yet vocal group here who has something against untrained eyes criticizing your work.

To paraphrase a consensus... "The average Joe or girlfiriend knows nothing of story or character arcs and their opinion doesn't count."

Their opinion is ultimately what counts. They may not know what an arc is, but they know a good (or bad ) one when they see it on screen. That is why most films are prescreened and audiences are polled and graded. Even if a film (or a script) is great, if even only 10% of the ultimately intended audience hates something-- it will get changed.

The same is true with a script. Do you think producer's know anything about structure. NO. I have first hand experience from it. They know what they like and what they hate-- period. Structure usually has nothing to do with it.

Some producers may have bought Vogler's book and think they understand structure and arcs but more often than not, they have a very superficial knowledge on the subject.

So, My opinion is to get as many people to read your script-- pro's, friends, neighbors, etc...

And if there is a writing group you could join (even an online one), do so. A colleague's eye will give you not just what they hate, but why-- also an important aspect in helping you make changes.

I belong to several groups and I have my script read by dozens of people before I make changes. One time, my barber made an observation that I feel so stupid that I missed. He didn't like the fact my hero talked alot during a fight. He was right. Boy! From the mouth's of babes...

You'll get some off the wall comments and some comments that run in common to each other and the more you have the more of a pattern you will see. Ultimately, you will make changes based on what you agree with and what you see to be a problem. It's not writing by committee, it making adjustments to your targeted audience.

And who knows, one of your neighbor readers may play golf with someone in acquisitions for the Sci-fi Channel. (it happened to me and got a good connection as a result.)

Of course take everything I say as opinion, based on my personal experiences, not as the gospel.

[Writing Again]

FJ and G,

The only place you went wrong was when you felt devastated because one of your friends did not like it.

Unless this friend has made a life time habit of running you and your efforts down, in which case you should trade them in on a bowl of porridge, you should be happy. You have found someone who will tell you their honest opinion and are willing to hurt your feelings to tell you the truth.

I know a hundred people I could hand crayon scribbled toilet paper to asking for an opinion on my latest script and they would tell me it was wonderful: a work of pure genius.

In truth I would never give my friends a script, I let them see what is more in the nature of a treatment, because none of them know how to read scripts, but all of them can tell you if they like the story.

As the other comments point out, one thing you need to pay close attention to is what your readers are qualified to tell you. A friend can tell you if they find the story boring -- and where they became bored. I don't think the importance of that should be minimized, but it has noting to do with formating, production costs, marketability, etc.

I have to ask, or suggest you ask yourself, if you become devastated over one friend's critique -- Are you ready for the slugfest that is in store for you if you actually sell a script?

[JustinoIV]

"I'm not sure if you are advocating it, exactly, but I don't think writing big-budget fantasy specs is the best way to attract the attention of an agent or manager. I think it is widely regarded as one of the hallmarks of a beginner, as they are a notoriously difficult sell."

Well, you think. Didn't someone else just say that opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one?

I didn't advocate anything at all. I did say what you've written will determine who wants to read and represent your material. And that as far as I can see, it is easier to get a rep to read a horror or a fantasy than it is a gay romantic comedy (independant). From the agent's view point, both horror and comedy are more SELLABLE than a Latin gay comedy.

Make of that what you will.

I would say that in my case, of the producers that I've come across, it does appear that ultimately decide or reject on the story. If it is decided that changes need to be made to the character's or the story, they'll have you or other screenwriters do that.

Actually, with people that they know, a lot of people are not willing to give an opinion. And for good reason. Strongly criticize someone's work, and you two may never speak to each other again. Even when I was a script reader, we were told not write overly harsh evaluations about any scripts. Because evaluations have gotten back to writers, and enemies are made. If you must get your work evaluated, you may want to go an experienced script consultant, or take classes. People who have a business interest in you won't nsult, will be more diplomatic in pointing out areas you need to improve, and if things don't work out, well, this isn't a friend or a relative that you'll be pissed at.

I do think people here have a tendency to make everything sound harder than it is. When I worked as a script reader, the development execs told us that they wanted us to make the decision on the story. As far they were concerned, the scripts were all first drafts that had to be rewritten. And development execs do tell readers to pass along scripts that fit the perimeters of what they are looking for, budgetwise and genre wise.

If it falls out of what the producer or agent is looking for, the reader will always give the story a PASS.

[joecalabre]

Justin is right. That is why you send your script (whatever genre, budget, theme it is) to the RIGHT people.

Don't send your "Lord of the Rings" script to an indie producer and don't send your "Latin Gay Love story" to Universal Studios.

I do have to say that a "Latin Gay Love story" is very marketable.

Look at cable (with 4-5 hit series and 3-4 movies with a gay theme in the past three years.) Look at the networks (Will and Grace). As for films, there have been several gay films that did well.

If it's a good story I would send it to the right hands. If it's a great writing sample, I would send it to agents.

[BROUGHCUT]

I didn't advocate anything at all. I did say what you've written will determine who wants to read and represent your material. And that as far as I can see, it is easier to get a rep to read a horror or a fantasy than it is a gay romantic comedy (independant). From the agent's view point, both horror and comedy are more SELLABLE than a Latin gay comedy.
Is this what happens when an alien abducts a thread? Check the EZ board clocks!

After your latin script, big-budget fantasy is the hardest genre to spec, so I'm not sure why you have needlessly skewed the discussion to marketing/budget considerations. Anyway, this is all completely off-topic for this question....

[SimonSays]

Here's the deal my friends.

If you are an unrepresented, unproduced writer your spec scripts serve a dual purpose.

First they are a commodity that you are trying to sell.

Second, and more importantly they are your audition piece. They show your ability to write. They show your talent as a storyteller.

The truth is spec scripts by unproduced writers rarely get made. The odds are against them even being optioned. And if they do get produced, it is often after the writer has become established through other projects.

But they CAN get you an agent and they CAN get you meetings with producers - which can lead to writer for hire work. But only if they show that you are a good writer. That you understand structure and character. It is not unheard of to Pass on a particular script, but Recommend the writer.

Scripts are not like novels - they are blueprints for movies. They are in the end, meant to be filmed. Meant to be seen and heard, not read. Yes, they do need to be a good read, but a professional reader is not reading them for the quality of the read, they are reading them for the potential of the film. Laymen often do not understand this and they do not know what agents or producers are looking for when they read.

You can get feedback from two people or two hundred - the choice is yours. But it is the quality not the quantity of the input that counts.

Justino, who has been a professional reader, has told you what industry people are looking for. Some of you have chosen to pooh-pooh him and call him a blowhard instead of listen to what he says. Personally I'd listen to him, afterall HE has been in the position to PASS or RECOMMEND.

[JustinoIV]

My one work for hire occured because the director/producer rejected by gay latin themed script, but chose to hire me as the screenwriter. I learned a lot while working for him.

At one company I interned at, a script reader passed on a script about time traveling machines in China. Basically, it was an indie prodco on small bugets (like several million) and the budget for this script would have been truly fantastic. But the reader did recommend the writer, and the prodco is considering hiring that writer.

Joe, I do know that cable networks, particularly HBO, have done a lot of gay films. I'd just need to get that script into the hands of a producer backed by HBO films, or an indie producer with another way of getting it distributed. Still, right now I've gotten my share of interest from the horror and fantasy scripts, so I'll spend time focusing on them while I finish the first draft on my latest horror (i'm now on act III). Then I'll address the gay latin script again.

[JustinoIV]

I almost forgot, a good way to judge what works and what the public expects to see in a film is to go to the movies. It's a good way to gage what audiences like, and to get ideas on what works, and what doesn't. As Simon said, a screenplay is a blueprint for a movie.


You can watch and critique films, particularly those of the genre of the screenplays you're writing. That will help teach you a lot.

[joecalabre]

Justin and Simon are right to a degree. In fact, we all are.

We all have different ways of doing things and no one way is the right way. There is no formula for success.

Some writers put a copyright notice and other's don't. Some get in to the business by writing indie projects and other with big, expensive epics (I even know someone who got in with just a pitch). Writers live in LA and others in New Hampshire. Some use critiquing services and others only by friends and family. (okay, you get the point)

The important thing is to write as many scripts you can think of, get feedback if you feel you need to and develop a thick skin from any negative feedback (but be open to change) and keep plugging away.

If your good (and lucky) you'll make it there.

Hell! I've been writing for 20 years and only just now am getting some decent work.

[BROUGHCUT]

Justino, who has been a professional reader, has told you what industry people are looking for.
Justino has been many things (on several EZ boards), but I don't think that is one of them.

[JustinoIV]

"We all have different ways of doing things and no one way is the right way. There is no formula for success."

Well said, Joe! Basically, the individual will have to find out what works for him/her.

[SimonSays]

Well B-

Out of all the information I've seen on these particular boards - Justino has been consistently on target about what agents and producers are looking for and what they are evaluating when they read scripts.

I base this on my own experiences, both as a writer who has been both Passed on and Recommended and as someone who has worked in development. I also base it on the experiences of all the other working writers that I know (and I know quite a few).

Think what you want, believe what you will - but I hope that many on this board will give more weight to what Justino has to say.

[Writing Again]

SimonSays,

An exceptionally written story will not be bland and boring IF IT WORKS. Good writers can make a story work regardless of the subject matter.
Now there is a goal to aspire to.



There are times when you need to forget your readers and their conflicting advice: Some subjects are so divisive you can't trust their opinions.

Gay Latin lovers?

I know at least 5 people who would love it no matter what so long as they were cast in a positive light: I know at least that many who would hate it no matter what light they were cast in.

What do you do when a producer hands you an assignment that YOU hate?

Not saying anyone here is homophobic, but what if you were and you were told by a producer he wants a gay Latin love story in the next six weeks? He wants the theme to be "Love conquers all." He is talking six figures here.

What would you do?

[SimonSays]

I guess that would depend on what you mean by hate. If it was a story idea that I thought was stupid or I didn't like, I'd probably take the gig, as long as I believed I could do justice to the story.

But if the story and/or theme advocated something I was strongly against, then I wouldn't do it. Film can be a very powerful medium, I wouldn't want to help glorify things that I believe are wrong.

[Gillyflower Cooms]

I have to agree with Brough. Justino has had little experience in the real world of writing. He picks up stuff on message boards and regurgitates it. He always beefs up his resume. Don't be so easily fooled by the wannabes that troll these boards.

[SimonSays]

Regurgitating bad information gleaned from internet message boards seems to be a recurring problem on this site.

But to be fair to Justino, more often than not - his postings reflect what I know about the business, based on my experiences working in the business.

Alas, the same cannot be said for many of the other postings. Where the info is just dead wrong.

That is why always suggest - taking classes, reading books on the craft and reading up on the business (via Variety, the Hollywood Reporter, etc.) rather than relying on internet message boards for your education.

[JustinoIV]

"I have to agree with Brough. Justino has had little experience in the real world of writing."

And your experience is, Gilly?

As for my resume being beefed up, yes it has been. Most film industry people move from gig to gig. People just don't stand still.

I've lived in NYC and in LA, where anyone who wants to can get internships and paid work if he or she choses.

"rather than relying on internet message boards for your education."

At this point here all I'm going to say it that we are all adults. I don't think anyone solely relies on this or any internet forum. I assume people have the sense to go the bookstore and/or the library. Or seek out other sources of information, whatever they maybe.

On any internet forum, on any internet subject, you will never get a consenus on any info. It is up to the individual to scan it and to find out what may be useful for him or her.

[SimonSays]

Justino:

"I don't think anyone solely relies on this or any internet forum. I assume people have the sense to go the bookstore and/or the library. Or seek out other sources of information, whatever they maybe."


Based on the questions I've seen posted on many of these threads, I don't share your assumption - in fact - quite the opposite. It is apparent to me that some people have not bothered to learn the first thing about screenwriting.

Based on the answers to questions I've seen on this board it is also apparent that some of those offering advice have not bothered to learn screenwriting from any source other than other clueless people who post on message boards.

It's a vicious cycle.

[JustinoIV]

"Based on the questions I've seen posted on many of these threads, I don't share your assumption - in fact - quite the opposite. It is apparent to me that some people have not bothered to learn the first thing about screenwriting.

Based on the answers to questions I've seen on this board it is also apparent that some of those offering advice have not bothered to learn screenwriting from any source other than other clueless people who post on message boards."

Well, keep in mind that many people who call themselves screenwriters, or other kinds of writers, have no real intention of every being a professional working writer. A lot of people just say they're a writer, to just sound cool. Or they may scribble a few pages and that's it.

And that's fine.

I know you're an experienced screenwriter, Simon. But there is just no helping some people.:)

If it does not occur to people to seek out other sources of info or to pursue this seriously, well, you can't convince all of them or most of them even.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you have pointed newcomers here to all the proper resources. But the saying is you can lead the horse to the water, but you can't make him drink.

[dpaterso]

Why don't you guys rent a room and exchange your incredible negativity in fluid form? Continually disparaging those lesser writers who dare offer whatever well-meaning advice they can to other writers at the same level doesn't make you bigger or smarter or better. It just makes you tedious. And repetitive. And tedious. Are you capable of doing anything except pissing on people you plainly view as inferior?

-----------------------The sound of tires appear and grow in intensity. The Man, without saying an actual word, instructs the dog to heal. ~SOLARIS

[Writing Again]

I guess that would depend on what you mean by hate. If it was a story idea that I thought was stupid or I didn't like, I'd probably take the gig, as long as I believed I could do justice to the story.

That would leave me a lot of room as there are very few things I either dislike or consider stupid out of context.

As I consider every story as a situation within a milieu, there is always a time and place when that which is stupid out of context would be the right thing to do; there is almost always a time and place when that which is dislikable out of context would be the preferable thing to do.



But if the story and/or theme advocated something I was strongly against, then I wouldn't do it. Film can be a very powerful medium, I wouldn't want to help glorify things that I believe are wrong.

I truly trust the public in this. I do not think a story would be marketable if it advocated something that was unequivocally wrong: for example the deliberate harming of innocent people.

I believe the public knows when an action is right and when that same action is wrong.

[JustinoIV]

"Why don't you guys rent a room and exchange your incredible negativity in fluid form? Continually disparaging those lesser writers who dare offer whatever well-meaning advice they can to other writers at the same level doesn't make you bigger or smarter or better."

Derrick, I certainly I am not negative. I'm not attacking anyoe or anything. I don't consider myself or anyone an all knowing guru.

I was just saying that the person who is serious about screenwriting will figure out how to sort the good advice from the bad. The serious person will do all it takes to make it, and use all the resources at his or her disposal.

You've done nothing wrong in trying to answer questions that beginner's may ask. I'm not going to get into whether anyone here has the best advice or the worse advice, because that is making things entirely personal.

If I've said anything to upset you, I apologize.

[SimonSays]

dpaters:

"Continually disparaging those lesser writers who dare offer whatever well-meaning advice they can to other writers at the same level doesn't make you bigger or smarter or better. It just makes you tedious. And repetitive. And tedious. Are you capable of doing anything except pissing on people you plainly view as inferior?"

I think I'm giving everyone on this board the benefit of the doubt - that they are passionate about their dream of becoming a professional screenwriter and one day having their films produced.

I don't 'dis' the erroneous posters - I point out that there are erroneous postings. I don't attack anybody personally - I argue my positions.

If I am forceful in getting my point across - it's because sometimes you have to be. I want people to "get it". To stop for a second and think - "well, maybe it's not such a good idea to take legal advice from people who's only qualification is that they Tivo'ed every episode of 'The Practice'. Maybe I should invest a little time in money in LEARNING the craft before pursing the craft - and maybe I should seek that education from people who I am SURE have the credentials to lead me in the right direction.

As for being bigger and smarter - I'm really quite petite. And I don't necessarily think IQ plays a role in writing talent. As for knowing more - yes, I think I know more about screenwriting and the business than some others on this thread. Because I have both an education and practical experience in this business - and many on this board have neither.

I don't throw my knowledge in anyone's face - my main focus is to get people to go educate themselves. I know several producers who are willing to give new writer's a chance. They go to open pitch sessions and screenwriting conferences - and their biggest complaint is that so many aspiring writers just haven't taken the time to learn how to write - to learn the craft. They scratch their heads wondering where these writer's get their information. Apparently they get it from boards like this.

[JustinoIV]

Okay guys, chill out.

Things are getting way too antagonistic here.

Simon, we all know where you stand on some of the posters here.

Just chill.

I think things are getting to a point where no discuss is going to follow, instead, it will just become flame wars.

If someone posts something you know to be false, then you can post some follow up info and refer any would be newbies to a good book. Or just justify it with your professional experiences.

But yes, this is going too repetitive even more people. Jenna has been known to lock threads, Simon, or kick people off. Can't we all chill and back down?

[SimonSays]

I appreciate the heads up Justino - but believe it or not - I don't care if threads are locked or if I get banned. If people can't deal with my attitude they ain't got a shot in hell of dealing with the egos and personalities that populate Hollywood. I am a lamb in comparison.

If I were to get thrown off an internet message board- somehow, someway I would find the inner strength to have a fullfilling life.

[JustinoIV]

I personally am not someone who is easily upset or offended, and with that said, I don't let anyone get in the way of what I want. As far as I'm concerned, what egos and personalities in Hollywood? I'm quite persistant in going for the gold.

I think part of the recent conflict between you and some of the professional screenwriters here, and some of the hobbyists here is that you assume all hobbyists truly intend to become pros.

That's not at all true.

As you said it, not everyone has the personality to deal with the issues in Hollywood. Perhaps the most crushing thing for hobbyists is getting back those one page rejection letters or emails (which are never rude).

If you look around this site, there are people who call themselves writers who have no friends and who sit in their rooms in solitude (I'm going by a thread in the novel section). I don't know any working writers in NYC or in LA like that. Those solitude people who call themselves writers may simply be using boards like this for a social outlet or club. Doesn't mean that they really want to be writers.

I appreciate all you're trying to do for newbies. But some people are just a waste of time.

I've known so called writers who would come to me for advice. I advised them to take classes, I picked out some books they should buy, I referred them to mentors, etc.

After all that, these so called WRITERS acted on nothing. It's obvious that these people were just hot air.

Don't get me wrong, I still love helping people who need help. Some friends of mine are shooting an indie movie. The guy who wrote the script had studied theatre, so he wrote a stage play for the film script. I rewrote it as a screenplay for him.

It's much more satisfactory to help those who need and want help and are open to it.

If some people just can't get it, well, that is their problem. Your energies to helping beginning writers would go further if you aid those worthy of your help.